How Wired Is Going to Handle Ad Blocking(wired.com)
wired.com
How Wired Is Going to Handle Ad Blocking
http://www.wired.com/how-wired-is-going-to-handle-ad-blocking/
389 comments
It is crazy what kinds of BS you find when you run something like Little Snitch for OSX. On a fresh install of Firefox before I've had a chance to download adblock, there are two dozen popups requesting outbound connections... most of the time, I have NO idea who is behind the request or what these request really want. This is just the start page... news pages are even worse.
Run some apps with Little Snitch turned on and you see the same thing. Tons of outbound requests to domains that I have never heard of and have no idea what they want on my machine.
I just block everything with reckless abandon. I don't give a shit if my "experience" is degraded.
Frankly, with small kids in the house who I would like to protect to the extent I am able... I am considering installing Pi Hole and whatever else I can find in addition to the spartan whitelist I've set up for them to use via parental controls.
Run some apps with Little Snitch turned on and you see the same thing. Tons of outbound requests to domains that I have never heard of and have no idea what they want on my machine.
I just block everything with reckless abandon. I don't give a shit if my "experience" is degraded.
Frankly, with small kids in the house who I would like to protect to the extent I am able... I am considering installing Pi Hole and whatever else I can find in addition to the spartan whitelist I've set up for them to use via parental controls.
Funny, I just bought my first RPi in order to run Pi-Hole. It works decently from my daughter's tablet. I enabled it on the router so the whole house is covered, but due to uBlock I hardly ever see ads on computers. The nice thing is having "boring text" instead of colorful ads on tablets makes them a much smaller target for kids to tap on.
I will say that the installation process can be somewhat painful if you deviate from the norm. I didn't want to use Google DNS and instead opted for OpenDNS, plus I wanted my own directory structure, etc...
I will say that the installation process can be somewhat painful if you deviate from the norm. I didn't want to use Google DNS and instead opted for OpenDNS, plus I wanted my own directory structure, etc...
I'm using this on my Windows PC:
http://someonewhocares.org/hosts/
Disabled all ad-blockers and still don't get ads, and the whole experience seems faster. Presumably it takes longer for JavaScript-based utilities to block ads compared to just blackholing them in the hosts file? Anyway, might get a Raspberry Pi or just use an old small form-factor PC with it's own DNS server running the same list.
http://someonewhocares.org/hosts/
Disabled all ad-blockers and still don't get ads, and the whole experience seems faster. Presumably it takes longer for JavaScript-based utilities to block ads compared to just blackholing them in the hosts file? Anyway, might get a Raspberry Pi or just use an old small form-factor PC with it's own DNS server running the same list.
The Pi-Hole script uses that same list as part of a consolidated list: https://github.com/pi-hole/pi-hole/blob/master/adlists.defau...
It then installs an updater via cron to check for updated lists every week.
As to your experience with speed, I'm kind of surprised. The only time I noticed a speed difference is when I blackholed domains in the hosts file that didn't resolve to a valid web server (i.e. resolving to 127.0.0.1 without having a web server running), and that's the opposite of what you describe. The pi-hole script also installs lighttpd to serve up a placeholder page, and uses some tricks like mod_expire to improve performance.
It then installs an updater via cron to check for updated lists every week.
As to your experience with speed, I'm kind of surprised. The only time I noticed a speed difference is when I blackholed domains in the hosts file that didn't resolve to a valid web server (i.e. resolving to 127.0.0.1 without having a web server running), and that's the opposite of what you describe. The pi-hole script also installs lighttpd to serve up a placeholder page, and uses some tricks like mod_expire to improve performance.
Thanks for the link to the lists, I'll try rigging that for auto-update on my PC soon.
Is there a good open source "Little Snitch" alternative?
Try umatrix, it's available for both firefox and chrome, and allows you to do whitelisting of third party domains for each domain you visit.
They don't cover the same use cases.
Little Snitch is basically a user-friendly general-purpose application Firewall. When a connection hasn't been whitelisted before, it pop up a dialog box allowing you to accept/reject connection to a host/domain/port permanently/temporarily.
uMatrix does not protect you against 'malicious' connections initiated by non-browser applications. Little Snitch does not provide the fine-grained URI-level filtering that uBlock/uMatrix provide.
Edit: if you have a Mac, Little Snitch is well-worth the money. It is very polished, does the job, and the developers are not greedy (I think I purchased an update once after I started using it in 2007 or 2008).
Little Snitch is basically a user-friendly general-purpose application Firewall. When a connection hasn't been whitelisted before, it pop up a dialog box allowing you to accept/reject connection to a host/domain/port permanently/temporarily.
uMatrix does not protect you against 'malicious' connections initiated by non-browser applications. Little Snitch does not provide the fine-grained URI-level filtering that uBlock/uMatrix provide.
Edit: if you have a Mac, Little Snitch is well-worth the money. It is very polished, does the job, and the developers are not greedy (I think I purchased an update once after I started using it in 2007 or 2008).
Maybe, but I haven't found anything as polished as Little Snitch. The level of control is amazingly high. I really don't use it to the full extent with profiles and the like. I set up some basic rules and let it work for awhile, then I pick and choose what to allow/disallow permanently... like a King :P
It's one of the first things I install on my Macs. Worth every penny.
It's one of the first things I install on my Macs. Worth every penny.
Not exactly the same, but Privacy Badger from EFF is great.
For the network monitoring part, Private Eye is a free alternative, though not open source: http://radiosilenceapp.com/private-eye/
Disclaimer: I made it.
Disclaimer: I made it.
Wireshark or even tcpdump will get you most of the way there, I think.
Little Snitch doesn't just show you traffic, but also allows to block requests per domain per application.
Then add iptables to that list and I think you're set :-) seriously, all due respect to Little Snitch - I've heard a lot of good things about it and I'm sure it's much easier to use than the raw tools. But I doubt it's doing anything that can't be done with tcpdump/iptables.
[deleted]
They're not talking to you or me. If they were, this article would have been "How Wired Is Going to Handle Tracking and Web Cruft" and address the underlying problem causing people to install ad blockers.
I want people to get paid--really I do--but I'm not stepping barefoot into a cesspool of web cruft to do it. Blockers are like putting boots on so you can wade through it safely. Clean up your mess and I don't mind going barefoot.
I want people to get paid--really I do--but I'm not stepping barefoot into a cesspool of web cruft to do it. Blockers are like putting boots on so you can wade through it safely. Clean up your mess and I don't mind going barefoot.
> We know that there are many reasons for running an ad blocker, from simply wanting a faster, cleaner browsing experience to concerns about security and tracking software.
They sound as though they're trying to accommodate 'us', but the proof will be in what the 'ad-free' experience is really like. I wonder if they're considered a paid RSS feed as an alternative - that would certainly solve much of the issue for many.
They sound as though they're trying to accommodate 'us', but the proof will be in what the 'ad-free' experience is really like. I wonder if they're considered a paid RSS feed as an alternative - that would certainly solve much of the issue for many.
Agreed. I think Wired, as well as other publishers, are missing the point here. I don't have any issue with ads in general - but if we're talking about ads that Wired has no control over and just fetches from a network, it's a whole different story. The same applies to ads that significantly increase page load times, bandwidth usage (I'm forced to use a metered LTE connection) or privacy concerns.
Simple static ads would render most of these concerns unnecessary, but I doubt there's any incentive to go back to that kind of "outdated" advertising.
Simple static ads would render most of these concerns unnecessary, but I doubt there's any incentive to go back to that kind of "outdated" advertising.
Simple static ads that are not huge, distracting or obnoxious, that are delivered free of any script or similar code, and all hosted by the first party. Those are the ads I would probably find acceptable.
They should be able to still do this too; presumably they still have an ad department for the dead tree version of things. That means they have the people in place to sell ads and integrate them into their content. Of course, magazine ads don't really fit your "not huge, distracting or obnoxious" requirement but their ad people can evolve too. There's probably even a business in this for websites/companies that don't have dedicated ad departments.
But most people who block ads just don't want to see ads. Your technical concerns are in the minority.
I think they just don't want to see ads as intrusive as the ones found these days. Neither do I.
While my main concerns are performance, bandwidth, security and privacy, I don't think that simple static image ads would have led to the widespread adoption of ad blockers we're currently seeing.
In my opinion it's due to the fact that ads became very intrusive lately - video, audio, flash, popups, fullscreen overlays, endless scripts, you name it.
In my opinion it's due to the fact that ads became very intrusive lately - video, audio, flash, popups, fullscreen overlays, endless scripts, you name it.
Absolutely. The number of people who would still resort to blocking ads if they were non-targeted, static, tastefully done yet clearly recognizable as advertisements, served locally, non-tracking, and non-obtrusive would probably have been negligible. But now there is an entire economy that depends on advertisements that track you and know you and need to be served via third party brokers, because if they didn't they wouldn't sell.
I don't know the solution to fix this mess, but I will gladly help pop the current bubble so something more useful can replace it.
I don't know the solution to fix this mess, but I will gladly help pop the current bubble so something more useful can replace it.
If you put a static ad image hosted on your own server on the page, something like http://wired.com/img/jhfkfhfuhi34cn2.jpg, ad blocker will not be able to distinguish it from other images and won't block it.
There is also common banner dimensions that get blocked, but it is easy to defeat by adding a pixel somewhere that fits into site design.
Problem with this approach is that you can't just slap some random ad network script there and be done with it, no targeted ads, tracking etc - basically everything people don't like and a reason to use ad blockers.
There is also common banner dimensions that get blocked, but it is easy to defeat by adding a pixel somewhere that fits into site design.
Problem with this approach is that you can't just slap some random ad network script there and be done with it, no targeted ads, tracking etc - basically everything people don't like and a reason to use ad blockers.
It's amazing why they don't just do this. Part of the reason why is that ad blocking is so easy, so most people will just do it... especially if it has the added benefit of removing the 5 second delay on YouTube videos due to ads.
But I don't care enough to wipe out static in page ads, especially since those don't have the added cost of tracking me anymore than visiting the site does. In short, I still wouldn't like those adds, but I would like them a lot more than the ads I currently block.
I think adblockers block content which usually is offsite, so it's not a matter of "technical concern".
EDIT: rephrase
EDIT: rephrase
I don't even require that they be static - I find ads relevant to the content I'm looking at useful sometimes, and particularly for searches I may end up going with something advertised in the results (generally on DuckDuckGo, occasionally on Google and Google Shopping).
What I object to is the cesspool of unidentifiable tracking and god-knows-what-else crud.
What I object to is the cesspool of unidentifiable tracking and god-knows-what-else crud.
> slow ads
heck i block ads as a side effect of blocking things like Google analytics.
heck i block ads as a side effect of blocking things like Google analytics.
> who's to say what's going to be loaded after the site gets hacked
Never mind even getting hacked. Ad providers routinely violate the trust of content providers by activating audio, throwing up full screen overlays and who knows what else. I'm not an expert but I'm given to understand that it's hard for content providers to quality control these sort of ads. The whole delivery system is gamed to a ridiculous degree.
Never mind even getting hacked. Ad providers routinely violate the trust of content providers by activating audio, throwing up full screen overlays and who knows what else. I'm not an expert but I'm given to understand that it's hard for content providers to quality control these sort of ads. The whole delivery system is gamed to a ridiculous degree.
The reason blocking is so easy and works so well is because everyone got lazy.
Publishers want ads but don't want to actually do the job of selling them; ads used to be free money, and this is coming to an end.
Ads from their own domain would be a little harder to block, especially because blocking would have to be done on a page-by-page basis (or at least, website-by-website).
Publishers want ads but don't want to actually do the job of selling them; ads used to be free money, and this is coming to an end.
Ads from their own domain would be a little harder to block, especially because blocking would have to be done on a page-by-page basis (or at least, website-by-website).
Personally, I do not block first-party ads (i.e. ad images served from the same domain as the original content). For me, the point of using an adblocker is to reduce attack surface and tracking opportunities.
I see, of course, that I'm likely not representing the majority of adblock users.
I see, of course, that I'm likely not representing the majority of adblock users.
I have ublock myself for privacy concerns, but I install ad blockers on all my relatives computers just because they are trustful and dumb enough to click any shiny green button that says "Download". Otherwise, I have to pull my hair when I look at their computers full of crap, which they can't explain how it got there. If the internet with ads wasn't such a dangerous place, I wouldn't do it in the first place.
Could someone enlighten me why a lot of sites don't only pull in google analytics, but also a handful of other analytics sites like scorecaredresearch or chartbeat?
Sure. Every analytics company tries to differentiate themselves by claiming that they do something the others don't and showing off some pretty charts.
The marketers buy the hype and want all of that. "If I take this pretty chart from here, and that table that from there, and these numbers from over here, I can make a really impressive report!"
And they want to make sure that they're collecting all the data they could possibly be collecting (because they never know when they might suddenly need the last 6 months data about something they never thought of), even though they don't know what queries they want to be able to make.
So they make the developers add all of them, end up with tons of data but very little information, and start talking about 'this big data thing' that could maybe give them answers even though they still don't know what questions they want to ask. And to use it, you just have to add this little snippet of javascript...
The marketers buy the hype and want all of that. "If I take this pretty chart from here, and that table that from there, and these numbers from over here, I can make a really impressive report!"
And they want to make sure that they're collecting all the data they could possibly be collecting (because they never know when they might suddenly need the last 6 months data about something they never thought of), even though they don't know what queries they want to be able to make.
So they make the developers add all of them, end up with tons of data but very little information, and start talking about 'this big data thing' that could maybe give them answers even though they still don't know what questions they want to ask. And to use it, you just have to add this little snippet of javascript...
It sounds like the points you're making are all negative, but it also sounds like a fairly valid argument to me. Sure marketers add too much js with the allure of big data, but whats the cost? 0.1% of users (hn readers and the like) are annoyed by it? I'd gladly piss off a tiny fraction of my users to better understand the other 99.9%.
Google Analytics is used primarily for internal reporting and analysis. bscorecardresearch is part of ComScore, which is a third-party reporting company. Advertisers often require publishers to provide third-party reports for traffic so that they can validate the ad campaign numbers that the publisher reports. Chartbeat and others can provide supplemental reporting to a publisher if they think that there are gaps with what Google Analytics provides.
Thanks, I still believe the inclusion of yet another analytics tool is madness, but the point about publishers is new to me.
tl;dr: Their attack surface is huge. They probably don't even know at any moment why a page is pulling everything it pulls.
No thanks.
No thanks.
I tried to allow their ads after reading this article, but they still didn't load because they depend on several trackers (which I still block).
Silly me trying to read a news article: https://twitter.com/ColdPie1/status/654350476612272128
> who's to say what's going to be loaded after the site gets hacked
when a site gets hacked, you get malicious content regardless you block ads or not.
when a site gets hacked, you get malicious content regardless you block ads or not.
Depends on whether it's the site itself that gets hacked, or the ad network. (The latter is going to be a much more valuable target in practice since it allows malware to spread via multiple sites, not just one.)
That depends on whether they hack the site to actually feed the malicious content or just get enough of a foot in to get it linked from an actual hosting location. If what they have is a database hack where they can inject some content but don't have full control, they may be pushing links while trying to get further access.
> So far without ever actually loosening things up far enough to see ads that's AT LEAST 21 different top-level domains Wired is pulling from, not counting its own (and yes, I realize it's part of Conde Nast). Most of those top-level domains have at least 2 subdomains being pulled from, sometimes more.
Nit: Those aren't top-level domains. TLDs are things like com, net, org, uk, io, etc. More info here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-level_domain
Nit: Those aren't top-level domains. TLDs are things like com, net, org, uk, io, etc. More info here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-level_domain
[deleted]
> So, in the coming weeks, we will restrict access to articles on WIRED.com if you are using an ad blocker.
Good luck with that, Wired.
The people-who-will-never-pay group will split into two: People who never visit your site again, and people who up the ante in the ad-blocking escalation.
While you may think that you don't care about the people-who-will-never-pay group, the latter subgroup will release their improved ad-blocker, allowing the people-who-might-have-paid group to continue blocking ads.
I don't see this ending well for any party involved.
Good luck with that, Wired.
The people-who-will-never-pay group will split into two: People who never visit your site again, and people who up the ante in the ad-blocking escalation.
While you may think that you don't care about the people-who-will-never-pay group, the latter subgroup will release their improved ad-blocker, allowing the people-who-might-have-paid group to continue blocking ads.
I don't see this ending well for any party involved.
$52 is way too much for a medium that occasionally publishes something good. OK, that’s just my opinion and it’s highly subjective. But I used to love Wired back in the days when Internet was booming. Nowadays they’re just too irrelevant. All that aside, I’d love a pay-per-article scheme. Give me a summary of the article and if I like it I can pay for it. Sounds much more reasonable than asking me to pay for everything.
Right. I don't read $1 worth of Wired per week. That page I just read was worth maybe $0.001 (and that's being generous). Generally, I'd be happy to match forgone ad income. I wonder how many page views it takes for Wired to earn $1.
Edit: Make that $0.01 for the page.
Edit: Make that $0.01 for the page.
> I wonder how many page views it takes for Wired to earn $1.
When I read the price, I immediately wondered "what are they doing to my computer with those ads that they're making $52 a year when I read maybe four stories a year?"
Companies trying to sell subscriptions have never understood how to set prices. One thing they're not taking into consideration is that you're a lot more likely to click on an article if it costs you nothing but time. For many readers, even $1 a year isn't a good value.
When I read the price, I immediately wondered "what are they doing to my computer with those ads that they're making $52 a year when I read maybe four stories a year?"
Companies trying to sell subscriptions have never understood how to set prices. One thing they're not taking into consideration is that you're a lot more likely to click on an article if it costs you nothing but time. For many readers, even $1 a year isn't a good value.
> Companies trying to sell subscriptions have never understood how to set prices.
It's a dead-wood mindset, I think. Sure, I like to read a Wired article now and again. But I don't regularly hit their site. I go there based on search results, links, and so on. There are too many sites at that level for me to bother following. Let alone subscribing.
I get that $52 isn't very much. Not for me, that is. But it is for many readers. And so it's not a good choice for a basic subscription. If they don't want to bother with per page pricing, they could at least offer multiple subscription levels.
It's a dead-wood mindset, I think. Sure, I like to read a Wired article now and again. But I don't regularly hit their site. I go there based on search results, links, and so on. There are too many sites at that level for me to bother following. Let alone subscribing.
I get that $52 isn't very much. Not for me, that is. But it is for many readers. And so it's not a good choice for a basic subscription. If they don't want to bother with per page pricing, they could at least offer multiple subscription levels.
According to undisclosed sources, a user gives around $1 per year to an editor of this kind, so yes, it's a massive difference!
I'd love to see a widespread adoption of micro payment schemes. It looks like BT could make that quite easy to do. I don't know the technical aspects of what a system like that would entail, but it could unlock gated articles, serve as a voluntary tip jar, or even a system where a preset amount of tokens/coins get distributed evenly across the participating sites a user visits.
I've been working on the idea for a similar system for years. The barrier to entry it mammoth.
I'd buy into your idea with one addition: A "Refund" button at the bottom of the article that I can click to get my money back if the content ended up being low quality. That's a "No questions asked, no arguments given" refund, and it is my sole judgement as to what constitutes crappy quality.
That might buy the publisher (a) some credibility, and (b) an incentive to publish decent quality articles and not clickbait headed by misleading summaries.
Might some people abuse it? Sure. Probably. But I think that a large majority would not. Most of us do get it that people need to get paid.
That might buy the publisher (a) some credibility, and (b) an incentive to publish decent quality articles and not clickbait headed by misleading summaries.
Might some people abuse it? Sure. Probably. But I think that a large majority would not. Most of us do get it that people need to get paid.
The refund option isn't fair for the publisher. When you visit a restaurant do you get a refund if you don't like the food? Or a theater? I don't need a refund, if I pay for a few articles and they prove to be crap I won't visit the medium again. Besides we're talking about cents here, it's not like you bought a Picasso only to realize after a couple of months that you don't really like it.
> When you visit a restaurant do you get a refund if you don't like the food? Or a theater?
Weeeell, some people do exactly that (and have done since the beginning of time, as popularized in folk songs). The iOS AppStore does that, and that's also "pennies". Amazon does that. It's no small part of their success.
It's a question of self-belief. A seller who is confident about the quality of his delivery will not mind guaranteeing refunds, because chances are that very few people will take him up on it. Considering your costs are pretty much the same whether you serve 10,000 or 1,000 webpages, it doesn't really matter if you get 9,995 or 995 refunds.
Weeeell, some people do exactly that (and have done since the beginning of time, as popularized in folk songs). The iOS AppStore does that, and that's also "pennies". Amazon does that. It's no small part of their success.
It's a question of self-belief. A seller who is confident about the quality of his delivery will not mind guaranteeing refunds, because chances are that very few people will take him up on it. Considering your costs are pretty much the same whether you serve 10,000 or 1,000 webpages, it doesn't really matter if you get 9,995 or 995 refunds.
I think you have a good point, but I would liken it to: If I go to a restaurant, and they give me raw chicken, then no, I'm not going to give them my money.
I guess, it's a bad analogy, as food that makes you sick is easier to discern than "shoddy article with no journalistic integrity"
I guess, it's a bad analogy, as food that makes you sick is easier to discern than "shoddy article with no journalistic integrity"
Maybe if it was implemented in a different way, like a running tally for a month for which you are billed. You read an article, then decide whether or not you are willing to pay for that article. At the end of the month you get a bill for the amount that you agreed to. Kind of like the 'pay what you will' but with a set asking fee per article.
Yep. Facebook makes about $1 per user per month.
I think they're betting the group of people who pay them $52/year will more than make up for it, at least in the short term.
They may very well be in for a rude surprise. You can bet they will roll this out with a big name writer's article (Neal Stephenson has written for wired before, that would be a good candidate) to maximize the conversion. If they start it out with a bunch of junk they'll effectively tell people 'save your money'.
Exactly. I for one will be one of the people who will stop visiting the page altogether since it doesn't provide that much of a content for me personally.
"Good luck with that, Wired."
I can only see this as an act of desperation. They can't possibly think people are going to sign up for $1/mo subscriptions ... they must know that will happen fewer than 1000 times ever.
The other half - restricting their content from the exact audience that they supposedly represent ...
I feel sorry for them - they must be completely backed in a corner with no good options.
I can only see this as an act of desperation. They can't possibly think people are going to sign up for $1/mo subscriptions ... they must know that will happen fewer than 1000 times ever.
The other half - restricting their content from the exact audience that they supposedly represent ...
I feel sorry for them - they must be completely backed in a corner with no good options.
[deleted]
Why would Wired care about people that use ad blockers and never visit their site again? They're really no value to Wired so why expend resources on them? I have no problem adding Wired.com to my whitelist because I enjoy their articles.
>I don't see this ending well for any party involved.
I would get used to this. Ad blockers are relatively easy to defeat and if that 20% figure starts getting higher we'll start to see more and more sites employ these countermeasures.
>I don't see this ending well for any party involved.
I would get used to this. Ad blockers are relatively easy to defeat and if that 20% figure starts getting higher we'll start to see more and more sites employ these countermeasures.
>Why would Wired care about people that use ad blockers and never visit their site again? They're really no value to Wired so why expend resources on them?
Blocking users that use ad blockers and will never visit their site may potentially block a significant chunk of their intended audience. That audience may then share interesting articles with others who are not running ad blockers. I would assume that the cost of serving a single article to a portion of users who will not view ads may be insignificant in comparison.
Blocking users that use ad blockers and will never visit their site may potentially block a significant chunk of their intended audience. That audience may then share interesting articles with others who are not running ad blockers. I would assume that the cost of serving a single article to a portion of users who will not view ads may be insignificant in comparison.
Blocking a significant chunk of their audience that doesn't pay for the content they produce, in any way, while expending their resources is of little concern to sites that make their money from advertising.
Your comment doesn't make any sense?
Don't view ads. Wired doesn't care about you. You contribute nothing back anyway.
So by making it a little harder, at least some of those people with morals will be pushed in the right direction to pay or white list ads for free content.
Don't view ads. Wired doesn't care about you. You contribute nothing back anyway.
So by making it a little harder, at least some of those people with morals will be pushed in the right direction to pay or white list ads for free content.
people with morals
Nice.
You might take a moment to consider that some of us who block ads are more concerned about the morality (read: more or less utter lack thereof) of the a̶d̶v̶e̶r̶t̶i̶s̶e̶r̶s̶ trackers than we are the revenue some arbitrary site may or may not lose from missing our impressions before you start casting stones wildly about like that.
I'd probably be very willing to consider whitelisting sites who worked with advertisers that didn't run tracking programs most of the Three Letter Agencies in the West would kill to access — if they didn't already have behind-the-scenes arrangements with them. But that question is probably pretty moot at this point, isn't it?
Nice.
You might take a moment to consider that some of us who block ads are more concerned about the morality (read: more or less utter lack thereof) of the a̶d̶v̶e̶r̶t̶i̶s̶e̶r̶s̶ trackers than we are the revenue some arbitrary site may or may not lose from missing our impressions before you start casting stones wildly about like that.
I'd probably be very willing to consider whitelisting sites who worked with advertisers that didn't run tracking programs most of the Three Letter Agencies in the West would kill to access — if they didn't already have behind-the-scenes arrangements with them. But that question is probably pretty moot at this point, isn't it?
I prefer the term "online surveillance industry"
So pay for WIRED. What's the problem?
Paying for Wired does nothing to ensure you won't be tracked anyway.
So, clearly, you instead just directly pay the authors/etc when you can, right?
Or does that all conveniently fall by the wayside in your crusade?
When they give me a way to, yes, I actually do. I pay for recurrent subscriptions, plural, to sites that offer and warrant it. At least one of them has been running for a decade or more.
Regardless, calling it a "crusade" is the same kind of argument-poisoning that the GP uses with his "people with morals" quip. If you can't have a discussion without resorting to that kind of rhetoric — term used very damned loosely — then, personally, I don't think you've got much of a point.
Regardless, calling it a "crusade" is the same kind of argument-poisoning that the GP uses with his "people with morals" quip. If you can't have a discussion without resorting to that kind of rhetoric — term used very damned loosely — then, personally, I don't think you've got much of a point.
"crusade: lead or take part in an energetic and organized campaign concerning a social, political, or religious issue."
Apparently using correct words is now argument poisoning charged rhetoric.
Okay.
Sorry if you don't like when the definitions of words match what you are doing.
"If you can't have a discussion without resorting to that kind of rhetoric — term used very damned loosely — then, personally, I don't think you've got much of a point."
Let's look at who is using rhetoric here: "morality (read: more or less utter lack thereof) of the a̶d̶v̶e̶r̶t̶i̶s̶e̶r̶s̶ trackers than "
Yeah, i guess i couldn't agree more with you.
Apparently using correct words is now argument poisoning charged rhetoric.
Okay.
Sorry if you don't like when the definitions of words match what you are doing.
"If you can't have a discussion without resorting to that kind of rhetoric — term used very damned loosely — then, personally, I don't think you've got much of a point."
Let's look at who is using rhetoric here: "morality (read: more or less utter lack thereof) of the a̶d̶v̶e̶r̶t̶i̶s̶e̶r̶s̶ trackers than "
Yeah, i guess i couldn't agree more with you.
> So, clearly, you instead just directly pay the authors/etc when you can, right?
Yes, if the content is good enough to warrant paying for a subscription.
> Or does that all conveniently fall by the wayside in your crusade?
Nope, and there's no reason to muddy the waters with terms like crusade.
Yes, if the content is good enough to warrant paying for a subscription.
> Or does that all conveniently fall by the wayside in your crusade?
Nope, and there's no reason to muddy the waters with terms like crusade.
"Yes, if the content is good enough to warrant paying for a subscription.
"
So if it's not, you just view it anyway?
"Nope, and there's no reason to muddy the waters with terms like crusade. "
It's pretty rich to make a moral argument the way the parent did and have a problem with a term like crusade, which is a precise and correct term to describe this.
So if it's not, you just view it anyway?
"Nope, and there's no reason to muddy the waters with terms like crusade. "
It's pretty rich to make a moral argument the way the parent did and have a problem with a term like crusade, which is a precise and correct term to describe this.
> > "Yes, if the content is good enough to warrant paying for a subscription. "
> So if it's not, you just view it anyway?
Yes, because I decide what authors and publications I choose to support based on what they publish. You might think I'm "taking free samples too far", but you can always flick through a magazine before buying it in a store -- what is the difference here? Paying for a publication when you have no idea what they produce is just being a bad consumer.
> > "Nope, and there's no reason to muddy the waters with terms like crusade. "
> It's pretty rich to make a moral argument the way the parent did and have a problem with a term like crusade, which is a precise and correct term to describe this.
Well, to be fair GP made a similar moral argument, so I guess they also have a crusade?
Yes, because I decide what authors and publications I choose to support based on what they publish. You might think I'm "taking free samples too far", but you can always flick through a magazine before buying it in a store -- what is the difference here? Paying for a publication when you have no idea what they produce is just being a bad consumer.
> > "Nope, and there's no reason to muddy the waters with terms like crusade. "
> It's pretty rich to make a moral argument the way the parent did and have a problem with a term like crusade, which is a precise and correct term to describe this.
Well, to be fair GP made a similar moral argument, so I guess they also have a crusade?
"Well, to be fair GP made a similar moral argument, so I guess they also have a crusade?
"
Sure.
I don't discriminate.
Of course you think people who block ads are engaged in a "crusade": you work for an advertising company.
> some of those people with morals
As opposed to those without morals who won't white list the trackers or pay up?
As opposed to those moral upstanding citizens that run the advertising industry?
I don't think that the 'morals' bit needs to be in there, in fact it would be stronger without.
As opposed to those without morals who won't white list the trackers or pay up?
As opposed to those moral upstanding citizens that run the advertising industry?
I don't think that the 'morals' bit needs to be in there, in fact it would be stronger without.
They are asking, please stop using our content without giving something back. We need something from you to continue. Here are two options. Payment, or ads that we'll try and keep ok.
The response is, we'll weaponize and win.
Or excuses about how I don't contribute anything but might bring in someone who does, so how dare you. You are going to fail.
These are not evidence based arguments. It's not to hard to block Ad Block users.
Other media companies have survived with paywalls AND ads.
And even if it doesn't work out, Wired can pull back and at least say they tried.
It's the self righteous behaviour about it that's immoral. The glee at that they might fail. This can be read both above and below the lines.
The response is, we'll weaponize and win.
Or excuses about how I don't contribute anything but might bring in someone who does, so how dare you. You are going to fail.
These are not evidence based arguments. It's not to hard to block Ad Block users.
Other media companies have survived with paywalls AND ads.
And even if it doesn't work out, Wired can pull back and at least say they tried.
It's the self righteous behaviour about it that's immoral. The glee at that they might fail. This can be read both above and below the lines.
> Payment, or ads that we'll try and keep ok. The response is, we'll weaponize and win.
You really got to realize this is not about showing ads, ie. some plain jpg/gifs--which a lot of people would accept--but loading tons of tracking scripts that slow you down and violate your privacy. So yeah, I'm gonna protect against that, I don't deem it as an acceptable choice.
You really got to realize this is not about showing ads, ie. some plain jpg/gifs--which a lot of people would accept--but loading tons of tracking scripts that slow you down and violate your privacy. So yeah, I'm gonna protect against that, I don't deem it as an acceptable choice.
I'm not sure about that. I'm right there with you, but I'm skeptical whether it's a majority opinion. Does anybody have numbers on that?
>They are asking, please stop using our content without giving something back.
They are asking to violate your privacy by feeding your personal information to an ad network. If they were clear about the exchange they expected (personal info for articles), then people wouldn't be so harsh on them. It's pretending that their proposition is just seeing a little ad that's misleading to the point of being immoral.
>It's the self righteous behaviour about it that's immoral
I wouldn't call people being upset that wired has made this anti-privacy decision to force people into an all or nothing subscription self-righteous because it's not unfounded. This is a big middle finger to anyone who cares about privacy.
They are asking to violate your privacy by feeding your personal information to an ad network. If they were clear about the exchange they expected (personal info for articles), then people wouldn't be so harsh on them. It's pretending that their proposition is just seeing a little ad that's misleading to the point of being immoral.
>It's the self righteous behaviour about it that's immoral
I wouldn't call people being upset that wired has made this anti-privacy decision to force people into an all or nothing subscription self-righteous because it's not unfounded. This is a big middle finger to anyone who cares about privacy.
We don't want to bet on their content being good enough that it's worth so much money.
And honestly, if there really is a wall that isn't casually circumventable, then I just won't read it. I don't care enough to pay.
If they curated some constantly brilliant content, I'd jump on paying them. But as it is, I rarely end up there anyway.
And honestly, if there really is a wall that isn't casually circumventable, then I just won't read it. I don't care enough to pay.
If they curated some constantly brilliant content, I'd jump on paying them. But as it is, I rarely end up there anyway.
They could come up with a better payment option. They could accept micropayments of some sort. Even an anonymous deposit-based system. Then they could quote me an ad-auction based price, and give me the option of entering an account number and password.
How's the weather up there on that tall horse, mister?
"Wired doesn't care about you." isn't true at all. Just because a person who is blocking ads may not generate any revenue directly, they may share the article with someone who doesn't block ads.
Losing 20% of their audience may have really painful effects on their reader network.
Losing 20% of their audience may have really painful effects on their reader network.
I guess they have estimated the impact on revenue that would cause and realised it's minimal.
Yup, which would in turn affect their advertising since advertisers generally sites with the most traffic.
This isn't a moral argument. This is advertising. Less traffic overall will be bad in the long term. There are no two ways about that.
So true.
It is shortsighted to value your readers only for their capacity to view and click advertisements.
Readers also act as distribution nodes, sharing content that they find compelling with others who may or may not use ad blockers.
Building walls will result in fewer readers, and as you've noted, less traffic will be bad in the long term...
It is shortsighted to value your readers only for their capacity to view and click advertisements.
Readers also act as distribution nodes, sharing content that they find compelling with others who may or may not use ad blockers.
Building walls will result in fewer readers, and as you've noted, less traffic will be bad in the long term...
Odd how working for exposure is decried when business owners want designers or devs to do it, but grand when we want publishers to do it.
Exposure IS worth something and a business that pays a team of analysts and other professionals ought to be in a position to access this and decide accordingly. In this case in the long run something is better than nothing which is what wired will end up with.
As a publication they have little to offer to justify their high subscription cost and the portion of people interested in tech who don't use an ad blocker will eventually be the empty set.
Alternatively they could offer tasteful text and image ads served from their own domain and many people would be willing to allow them.
As a publication they have little to offer to justify their high subscription cost and the portion of people interested in tech who don't use an ad blocker will eventually be the empty set.
Alternatively they could offer tasteful text and image ads served from their own domain and many people would be willing to allow them.
I'm enjoying the meta - ad machine that sometimes writes about ads writing about its own new ad plans.
So tech is having a shake-out at the moment - many assumptions being questioned, many business models being challenged, many unicorns revealed as dead horses.
Considering how little of genuine value these businesses contribute - including Wired - I'm not sure they're going to be heavily mourned if they disappear.
Is anyone really going to mind much if the Distraction Economy dies over the next few years?
So tech is having a shake-out at the moment - many assumptions being questioned, many business models being challenged, many unicorns revealed as dead horses.
Considering how little of genuine value these businesses contribute - including Wired - I'm not sure they're going to be heavily mourned if they disappear.
Is anyone really going to mind much if the Distraction Economy dies over the next few years?
As has been mentioned elsewhere, my exact problem with this/Forbes approach/elsewhere is that there is no way that I want to suddenly start managing several new monthly subscriptions for all these outlets.
I enjoy Wired, but the thought of adding yet another subscription to my monthly credit card statement is too great a cognitive load for me to want to make the jump. Also, if you were to subscribe to the dead tree version, you get 6 months of dead tree + digital + a physical object (battery) for $5 that comparing it to $4/mo for digital only feels cheap.
I don't mind paying a small amount for reading the occasional article, but I don't want to manage a ton of new subscriptions.
Suggested Solution:
Now micropayments have never taken off for much the same reason, but what if I funded one general "content publishers" account with the equivalent of that $3.99/mo? When I get to a paywalled/ad-block unfriendly site, I could choose to fund that particular article using a micropayment from my general fund. I would have only one subscription to manage, would feel good about contributing to content I felt was quality, and people would get paid.
Of course, this takes content publisher buy-in, but if they're already in the process of trying new things, how about it? Feels a little similar to the failed Google Contributor project, but with more direct decision making. Can someone go and build a great business out of this for me?
I enjoy Wired, but the thought of adding yet another subscription to my monthly credit card statement is too great a cognitive load for me to want to make the jump. Also, if you were to subscribe to the dead tree version, you get 6 months of dead tree + digital + a physical object (battery) for $5 that comparing it to $4/mo for digital only feels cheap.
I don't mind paying a small amount for reading the occasional article, but I don't want to manage a ton of new subscriptions.
Suggested Solution:
Now micropayments have never taken off for much the same reason, but what if I funded one general "content publishers" account with the equivalent of that $3.99/mo? When I get to a paywalled/ad-block unfriendly site, I could choose to fund that particular article using a micropayment from my general fund. I would have only one subscription to manage, would feel good about contributing to content I felt was quality, and people would get paid.
Of course, this takes content publisher buy-in, but if they're already in the process of trying new things, how about it? Feels a little similar to the failed Google Contributor project, but with more direct decision making. Can someone go and build a great business out of this for me?
This is exactly what Readability [1] was doing, really well - from a user's perspective - but they couldn't make the business model work. They got lots of paying readers on-board, but couldn't get publishers involved.
Maybe they were just s few years too early. As you say, now that publishers are slowly awakening from their slumber, they'll be more willing to give it a go.
[1] https://www.readability.com/
Maybe they were just s few years too early. As you say, now that publishers are slowly awakening from their slumber, they'll be more willing to give it a go.
[1] https://www.readability.com/
The publishers can't give up control of pricing. If a third-party gatekeeper gains enough traction they'll control pricing, by making the market, and be able to sway the consumers choices. (Think iTunes with music or Amazon with book publishers.)
If publishers work with any micro-payment system they'll be competing on a penny-per-article basis, and not be able to pressure users into paying $4/mo for what's mostly an unwanted product.
If publishers work with any micro-payment system they'll be competing on a penny-per-article basis, and not be able to pressure users into paying $4/mo for what's mostly an unwanted product.
Why wouldn't you make it invisible? Do people really want to decide to pay or not pay for each page hit? You have a monthly fund which is your subscription. When you hit a site that is in the network it gets a chit against your account. At the end of the month (or whatever) your chits are counted up and providers get credited. It's really pretty simple and invisible. People get to fund what they actually use. Content creators get paid. Content providers can decide whether to paywall for out-of-network requests if they like. There is a paper trail to deal with copyright violations. I just need a huge pile of money to get people to sell it to some key players.
Pitch it as "Spotify for text". Amazon are inching towards it with the royalty-per-pages-viewed option for some Kindle titles.
Unfortunately the obstacle is that publishers would have to give up control, and share with other publishers; and I think many would rather go out of business. The music industry only cooperate due to the threat of piracy eating the entirety of their lunch.
Unfortunately the obstacle is that publishers would have to give up control, and share with other publishers; and I think many would rather go out of business. The music industry only cooperate due to the threat of piracy eating the entirety of their lunch.
Do you? You can start with small blogs and take it from there. You can sell subscriptions to different segments (tech, gardening, etc.) so that the % that goes to a small player once things get bigger is meaningful.
There is also the 'pyramid' effect you can get by owning signups. If I as a content provider or just a referrer send you in as a paying customer I can get a cut of your monthly without even serving you content.
And there is also well done advertising. Once you have a big group of people that reads articles on specific topics, I bet companies will want to pay a lot to send them (top quality of course) content that is also promotional in some way.
That could work as well. Some sort of normalization would need to occur such that someone visiting 1,000 sites on a $5/mo budget would compare favorably against someone visiting 10 on the same budget. But that would certainly further reduce inaction.
I think some sort of feedback would be important, at least in the beginning, so that people understand how this magic pile of money is being treated.
Who wants to give dexterdog a ton of money to go do this? :)
I think some sort of feedback would be important, at least in the beginning, so that people understand how this magic pile of money is being treated.
Who wants to give dexterdog a ton of money to go do this? :)
I am open to talking to anybody about it. I think I've got the core functions and issues mapped out already as I've been mulling it for years and watching a few people take a swing at it on the wrong plane.
There really is no issue with one person doing 1000 paid hits versus another who only does 10 as that all balances out. Sharing of accounts is one thing, but that's pretty easy to track as you just have to keep an eye on the heavy users.
Feedback is definitely part of the package. Users are kept anonymous to the content providers by default, but there is still some good aggregate data available. Content providers won't need to worry about their demographics nearly as much since they mainly want that to sell advertising which they should no longer have to do.
There really is no issue with one person doing 1000 paid hits versus another who only does 10 as that all balances out. Sharing of accounts is one thing, but that's pretty easy to track as you just have to keep an eye on the heavy users.
Feedback is definitely part of the package. Users are kept anonymous to the content providers by default, but there is still some good aggregate data available. Content providers won't need to worry about their demographics nearly as much since they mainly want that to sell advertising which they should no longer have to do.
For a site like Wired and many other established publishers this doesn't make any financial sense. There's still a lot of money to be made from plain old ads, as annoying as they may be to most of us. It's obvious by now that one way or the other ads are going the way of the dodo but it's difficult to think what will replace them or if that replacement will leave us better off. The way I see it, in the not so distant future all these publishers will be paywalled and we may have to resort to 'article pirates' in order to read them because I'm not about to pay 60 different $4/month subscriptions for the eventual article posted on one of the aggregation platforms I frequent. I really don't browse most of these sites, which is what would justify the $4/month, in theory anyways.
The problem is that exact inconvenience would benefit the publishers.
Have a subscription to WSJ but not Forbes? I'm going to read more articles on the WSJ.
Have a subscription to WSJ but not Forbes? I'm going to read more articles on the WSJ.
You will read more there, but you're also going to be more likely to leave if you start seeing articles posted elsewhere that you are paywalled out of. It's likely that most people are interested in certain writers and not certain mastheads. It's very similar to music.
Did you read the same article as me? They are only charging if you block ads. If you whitelist them on your ad blocker, you'll see the content. Its clear they know no one will pay, but need to address the neckbeardy complaints that will come their way about 'being forced to see ads,' 'being forced to be tracked,' etc.
>Suggested Solution:
I see nothing wrong with the solution as is: view ads or pay to block. It seems like the rational middle ground here. Oh and they're committed to 'polite' ads. I don't think I've ever seen a loud ad on their site, ever. So this is a pretty easy commitment for them. I do hope that all this drama is making web publishers reconsider how loud and obnoxious most advertising is on the web, especially the mobile web.
My big fear is that publishing will move into free hosting, namely on Facebook and other walled gardens. I think there are some pretty evil unintended consequences of ubiquitous ad blocking that no one is really considering yet.
>Suggested Solution:
I see nothing wrong with the solution as is: view ads or pay to block. It seems like the rational middle ground here. Oh and they're committed to 'polite' ads. I don't think I've ever seen a loud ad on their site, ever. So this is a pretty easy commitment for them. I do hope that all this drama is making web publishers reconsider how loud and obnoxious most advertising is on the web, especially the mobile web.
My big fear is that publishing will move into free hosting, namely on Facebook and other walled gardens. I think there are some pretty evil unintended consequences of ubiquitous ad blocking that no one is really considering yet.
In the Netherlands and Germany, there's Blendle, and it's very successful.
http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Blendle
https://medium.com/on-blendle
http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Blendle
https://medium.com/on-blendle
Why is it very successfully? Have you got any revenue figures to share?
Content partnerships alone doesn't make it successful.
Content partnerships alone doesn't make it successful.
While it does seem like they're doing well and they have gotten some very nice backing from the NYT, I would also like to know what their revenue is. They throw out the number of users everywhere, but they don't mention the important numbers like how many are actually paying and how many are paying with regularity. It just feels like they're hiding behind a high user number.
It's two years old and has half a million users in a country of 16 million people? Although it's recently expanded to Germany and growing really quickly there too, so that might skew the percentage a bit.
Back in 2014, when they had 100,000 users, roughly 20% was a paying customer.
Back in 2014, when they had 100,000 users, roughly 20% was a paying customer.
So no figures for Germany then about paying customers?
I'd love to show you, but wouldn't know where to look for that, tbh.
[deleted]
But it's still micropayments. They've done a good job of aggregating some quality content, but it's still pay per click to the consumer.
... with a one-click refund if you don't like the article.
In regular use, you don't go through the process of paying - opening an article automatically pays the price, so it's very easy to do. However, you can always get a refund.
It's a tiny detail, but it changes the whole flow. A nice side-effect is that clickbait is punished very harshly by the customers.
In regular use, you don't go through the process of paying - opening an article automatically pays the price, so it's very easy to do. However, you can always get a refund.
It's a tiny detail, but it changes the whole flow. A nice side-effect is that clickbait is punished very harshly by the customers.
The one-click refund isn't available after like 10 tries.
You don't see this?
http://i.imgur.com/5vYGsUg.png
(turns out you have two more clicks: there's one "please tell us why, for statistical purposes" multiple choice question followed by a confirmation - I think that's fair since it will greatly reduce abuse.)
http://i.imgur.com/5vYGsUg.png
(turns out you have two more clicks: there's one "please tell us why, for statistical purposes" multiple choice question followed by a confirmation - I think that's fair since it will greatly reduce abuse.)
I'd assume it's to keep things easier, especially for a young company. It should be much easier to deal with publishers when you can agree on cost per view, rather than trying to work out some magic subscriptions share model, like the one used by spotify, which is pretty hard to do and keep everyone happy.
But that's just an educated guess :)
But that's just an educated guess :)
I agree, but that variable cost is what makes it variable to the consumer which is generally not accepted. Putting a hurdle before a click to view an article generally destroys your readership.
It's totally true for things like spotify, where you can easily stream thousands of songs just in the background every month. Imagine how silly it would be if you had to make sure that spotify is closed when you leave your computer on for some time :)
However, consuming written content is different. It's much more involved, conscious action. So I am not sure if it is really much worse for the user.
However, consuming written content is different. It's much more involved, conscious action. So I am not sure if it is really much worse for the user.
Ah, very nice. The pricing is higher than I would have expected (€0.25/avg), though I wonder what ends up being sustainable.
I specifically remember the cries of "just let me pay you so I don't have to see ads!" once this started happening. Now it's "just let me pay some third party and have them handle the logistics of deciding who gets paid what and when but for the same price!"
This is pretty much exactly what the adblocking community has wanted since the beginning. You can get content for free and have ads. You can get content for almost nothing and have no ads.
This is pretty much exactly what the adblocking community has wanted since the beginning. You can get content for free and have ads. You can get content for almost nothing and have no ads.
One of the Pirate Bay co-founders launched www.flattr.com long ago - they're still around, but I don't know if they're gaining any real traction.
I agree that it is way too difficult to manage a bunch of monthly subscriptions, and also that having to put my credit card information into a website (and have it bill me every month) is basically as bad if not worse as putting up with the advertisements on a website. However, I think that micropayments/a flattr-style fund for reading articles is doomed to fail because of the psychological shift between "I'm reading this article for free" and "I'm reading this article for $0.01, I only have 1000 of these left this month, maybe this isn't the one I really want to spend this on." My opinion is that a Spotify/Netflix-style subscription model is the best: collect subscription money, then pay per-user that accesses an article. However, the issue with this model is that the "network" of things that you are allowed to read will be really small at first.
That said, here is my proposed business model. Create an app that allows users to load money into the app monthly and issues each user a unique credit card number[1] for subscriptions to other websites, giving a central location to manage subscriptions. Once you build up a number of users on a single site, go to that site and say "Hey, you can save the 1% of the subscription cost from our users that's eaten up by credit card fees[2] by going through us to manage subscriptions. Oh, and it will also increase your conversion rate among our users since it will only take two clicks to subscribe instead of having to enter a bunch of credit card information. Once you have a critical mass, you go around to companies and now create the Netflix-style subscription service. If you're clever, you probably can create article-level bundles, e.g. "every article in our network that was linked to off of Hacker News," but NOW you have the pay-to-read subscription with a critical mass of information that people want to read, instead of "we're launching with these twenty sites from these four companies and we hope to add more."
[1] Yes, there are a bunch of problems with issuing credit card numbers. Yes, I know I complained about having to enter credit card numbers in the first paragraph. This is a big picture thing.
[2] This is kind of wrong, since a credit card fee will be charged to load money into the app, as well as for disbursements. At this point, the startup would probably have to eat that fee or heavily push ACH/lower fee methods of payment (even though I hate companies that push ACH for this reason).
That said, here is my proposed business model. Create an app that allows users to load money into the app monthly and issues each user a unique credit card number[1] for subscriptions to other websites, giving a central location to manage subscriptions. Once you build up a number of users on a single site, go to that site and say "Hey, you can save the 1% of the subscription cost from our users that's eaten up by credit card fees[2] by going through us to manage subscriptions. Oh, and it will also increase your conversion rate among our users since it will only take two clicks to subscribe instead of having to enter a bunch of credit card information. Once you have a critical mass, you go around to companies and now create the Netflix-style subscription service. If you're clever, you probably can create article-level bundles, e.g. "every article in our network that was linked to off of Hacker News," but NOW you have the pay-to-read subscription with a critical mass of information that people want to read, instead of "we're launching with these twenty sites from these four companies and we hope to add more."
[1] Yes, there are a bunch of problems with issuing credit card numbers. Yes, I know I complained about having to enter credit card numbers in the first paragraph. This is a big picture thing.
[2] This is kind of wrong, since a credit card fee will be charged to load money into the app, as well as for disbursements. At this point, the startup would probably have to eat that fee or heavily push ACH/lower fee methods of payment (even though I hate companies that push ACH for this reason).
I am a programmer, an advertising hater, and a donor-supported content creator. A couple years ago I had an idea for a product that I feel would address this problem extremely well, filling the gaps that Patreon and Flattr seem to be neglecting.
I've started on it, and it's coming along, but sadly my schedule doesn't have room for another ongoing project, and I can't afford to pay another programmer to build it for me, so progress comes in fits and starts. Maybe once I have a demo-worthy prototype I can seek funding and hire help.
I've started on it, and it's coming along, but sadly my schedule doesn't have room for another ongoing project, and I can't afford to pay another programmer to build it for me, so progress comes in fits and starts. Maybe once I have a demo-worthy prototype I can seek funding and hire help.
This is kind of how YouTube Red works.
Keep in mind that YT is more like a publisher than an actual content source. The content source is thousands of video producers from all over the world. These content sources normally rely on adverts to profit from their videos, but YT Red suppresses the adverts and instead pays the content producer from a pool of money (e.g. instead of getting 1c/view from the advertiser, they get 1c/view from YT Red).
PS - Yes, "YouTube Red" is a terrible name and sounds like a porn site.
Keep in mind that YT is more like a publisher than an actual content source. The content source is thousands of video producers from all over the world. These content sources normally rely on adverts to profit from their videos, but YT Red suppresses the adverts and instead pays the content producer from a pool of money (e.g. instead of getting 1c/view from the advertiser, they get 1c/view from YT Red).
PS - Yes, "YouTube Red" is a terrible name and sounds like a porn site.
Publisher network with a single sub is a workable idea. This could happen, but from publisher's perspective may lead to further commoditzation of jouranlism as "content" to throw against subs. This is basically what cable TV is now, and I've noticed there's a bit of a race to the bottom in cable TV journalism, as well as advertising.
Couldn't you just disable ad-block on that site so they get paid without it coming out of your wallet?
He could if he is OK with the risk of malvertising.
Publishers will never buy into that. Ever. The ones who are large enough to throw up paywalls will do so. The smaller ones don't have enough margin to let a third party dictate whether they get paid.
[deleted](1)
Desperate times call for desperate measures I guess.
If you feel $1 per week ($50 / year) is too much remember that display ads to a targeted audience such as Wired's are worth CPM rates that you'd probably not believe.
Tracking (oh, you thought this was about advertising?) you has value, and quite a bit of it.
This ad-blocker wall thing is an interesting development (and Wired is definitely not the first site doing this), I sincerely hope that wired will survive the transition, at the same time they don't seem to understand that to lay fundamental blame for using an adblocker with that 20% of their audience (that high?). After all, it wasn't the users that decided to substitute 'ads' with 'tracking', 'visual garbage' and 'malware' it was the properties and the advertising companies that did that and wired does not seem to want to do much to prevent the remaining 80% or so from also installing an adblocker.
But ads without profiling are so much less lucrative that wired has now made 'advertising on or else pay us at a rate that reflects our rate card' into their opening bid in an all-out confrontation with their users.
Interesting times. If this holds for a while we might have our non-commercial web back. Note that nowhere does wired say that if you do disable your adblocker that you won't be profiled or tracked by them or their advertisers or analytics providers, privacybadger spots 8 of these on that very page.
I've seen enough of the inner workings of ad tech companies to never want to disable all my ad blockers, we'll see if there is a wired article that pushes me across the line to a paying subscriber. This one would not have made the cut.
Someone please invent an actual working micropayments system that does not rely on a centralized entity.
If you feel $1 per week ($50 / year) is too much remember that display ads to a targeted audience such as Wired's are worth CPM rates that you'd probably not believe.
Tracking (oh, you thought this was about advertising?) you has value, and quite a bit of it.
This ad-blocker wall thing is an interesting development (and Wired is definitely not the first site doing this), I sincerely hope that wired will survive the transition, at the same time they don't seem to understand that to lay fundamental blame for using an adblocker with that 20% of their audience (that high?). After all, it wasn't the users that decided to substitute 'ads' with 'tracking', 'visual garbage' and 'malware' it was the properties and the advertising companies that did that and wired does not seem to want to do much to prevent the remaining 80% or so from also installing an adblocker.
But ads without profiling are so much less lucrative that wired has now made 'advertising on or else pay us at a rate that reflects our rate card' into their opening bid in an all-out confrontation with their users.
Interesting times. If this holds for a while we might have our non-commercial web back. Note that nowhere does wired say that if you do disable your adblocker that you won't be profiled or tracked by them or their advertisers or analytics providers, privacybadger spots 8 of these on that very page.
I've seen enough of the inner workings of ad tech companies to never want to disable all my ad blockers, we'll see if there is a wired article that pushes me across the line to a paying subscriber. This one would not have made the cut.
Someone please invent an actual working micropayments system that does not rely on a centralized entity.
$1 per week doesn't seem like a lot when phrased that way. But when you think about all of the sites your adblocker blocks ads from on a daily basis, if it'd add up a lot of they all charged $1. I'd be ok with not consuming a good bit of content and paying for the small few I like, but I'm not sure that's sustainable. It'll be interesting to watch.
Micropayments, however, will never work. The main problem is that the jump from no payment to $1 is the biggest hurdle. If you can get someone to pay anything at all, you can probably get the to pay more than micropayment amounts, so your optimum payment is never a small one.
Micropayments, however, will never work. The main problem is that the jump from no payment to $1 is the biggest hurdle. If you can get someone to pay anything at all, you can probably get the to pay more than micropayment amounts, so your optimum payment is never a small one.
I always thought of micropayments as being like 1cent or less, like a small enough amount to be forgettable for even the stingiest people. And to somehow make it effortlessly simple to pay, so it's closer to an impulse purchase. There's a lot of friction associated with finding a credit card and punching in numbers and an address.
I'm already using Google Contributor, and have apparently effectively paid amounts from less than a cent to $0.35 to various sites I've visited in the last month or so, and all for $5 a month. Seems like a better way to handle paying for content than signing up for subscriptions individually with dozens of sites.
I'm already using Google Contributor, and have apparently effectively paid amounts from less than a cent to $0.35 to various sites I've visited in the last month or so, and all for $5 a month. Seems like a better way to handle paying for content than signing up for subscriptions individually with dozens of sites.
21.co is targeting micropayments [1] (and many other things) in a novel way.
You will have a low powered bitcoin mining chip built into your device. This chip basically turns electricity into very small amounts of bitcoin (you'll be able to specify to do this only when your device is plugged into the wall, so as to not drain the battery). The chip's mining efficiency is less than state of the art bitcoin mining farms, but for the small amounts you are mining that really doesn't matter. The benefit is having (a small amount of) money put onto your device without you having to make any effort at all and replenished over time. There will also be the ability to specify a threshold below which money can be transferred from your device to a website without your authorisation. So you might specify 1 cent a webpage (for a collection of high quality sites) that you're happy to pay without constantly having to press an “ok” button.
This will then deliver a very low effort system for micro-paying websites requiring very little need for attention and management from the user, effectively automatically paying websites with device-generated digital currency rather than with attention/exposure to ads.
[1] https://21.co/learn/21-micropayments/#how-21-micropayments-w...
You will have a low powered bitcoin mining chip built into your device. This chip basically turns electricity into very small amounts of bitcoin (you'll be able to specify to do this only when your device is plugged into the wall, so as to not drain the battery). The chip's mining efficiency is less than state of the art bitcoin mining farms, but for the small amounts you are mining that really doesn't matter. The benefit is having (a small amount of) money put onto your device without you having to make any effort at all and replenished over time. There will also be the ability to specify a threshold below which money can be transferred from your device to a website without your authorisation. So you might specify 1 cent a webpage (for a collection of high quality sites) that you're happy to pay without constantly having to press an “ok” button.
This will then deliver a very low effort system for micro-paying websites requiring very little need for attention and management from the user, effectively automatically paying websites with device-generated digital currency rather than with attention/exposure to ads.
[1] https://21.co/learn/21-micropayments/#how-21-micropayments-w...
That seems like the worst of all worlds. Mining on a desktop computer just barely works, but I'll be damned if I want my laptop's fan to spin up all the time just so I can tip some web site. And I absolutely don't want my mobile to die on me daily because the bitcoin mining drains the battery. And considering the current BTC price, I'd burn like $3 for every $1 gained.
Someone come up with a service where you push money to (so any security breach is limited to the $20 or whatever you keep there) and then have a browser plugin that reacts to a payment challenge (either HTTP 402 or some meta-tag) and presents me with a native chrome button that can't be spoofed by site JS. And add a whitelisting option for something like The Guardian where I currently pay a monthly fee.
Someone come up with a service where you push money to (so any security breach is limited to the $20 or whatever you keep there) and then have a browser plugin that reacts to a payment challenge (either HTTP 402 or some meta-tag) and presents me with a native chrome button that can't be spoofed by site JS. And add a whitelisting option for something like The Guardian where I currently pay a monthly fee.
> Someone come up with a service where you push money to (so any security breach is limited to the $20 or whatever you keep there)
That's how I use my Paypal account. I top it up occasionally by transferring money from my real bank. Paypal has usually the equivalent of about USD100 and it does NOT have my credit card number.
I would be quite happy to use Paypal for micropayments but I haven't seen anything yet that works and asks for a small enough amount to qualify as micropayment.
That's how I use my Paypal account. I top it up occasionally by transferring money from my real bank. Paypal has usually the equivalent of about USD100 and it does NOT have my credit card number.
I would be quite happy to use Paypal for micropayments but I haven't seen anything yet that works and asks for a small enough amount to qualify as micropayment.
I was once attempting to write something like this and had a test version up.
Here is the repo: https://github.com/KonstantinSchubert/bitcoupon-public/
Somehow I got bored with debugging all the different components, but I still think it has a lot of potential.
Here is the repo: https://github.com/KonstantinSchubert/bitcoupon-public/
Somehow I got bored with debugging all the different components, but I still think it has a lot of potential.
> Mining on a desktop computer just barely works
You would not be mining on a computer's CPU (or GPU). You would be mining on a dedicated ASIC chip (that is already in production).
> And I absolutely don't want my mobile to die on me daily because the bitcoin mining drains the battery.
Which I why I specified in my comment that you could limit the mining chip to running only when the device is plugged into the wall (e.g. when you charge the battery overnight).
You would not be mining on a computer's CPU (or GPU). You would be mining on a dedicated ASIC chip (that is already in production).
> And I absolutely don't want my mobile to die on me daily because the bitcoin mining drains the battery.
Which I why I specified in my comment that you could limit the mining chip to running only when the device is plugged into the wall (e.g. when you charge the battery overnight).
Besides it being utterly ridiculous to have a mining chip in your computer, you are ignoring that Bitcoin is terrible for micropayments.
1) The blockchain can handle approximately 3 transactions per second, which if actually spread evenly across the day (which they wouldn't be), it can handle around 260,000 transactions per day. A website like the New York Times does over 1MM unique per day.
2) In order to get settlements on your transactions, you have to pay a fee or else miners will ignore you. Current fees are around the equivalent of $0.04 USD. So your 1 cent transaction will not only bound up the network, but also cost you 5 cents to actually get processed.
Bitcoin is not now, nor will it ever be, a feasible solution for micropayments. And the ridiculous 21.co mining rig is even more ridiculous of a solution.
1) The blockchain can handle approximately 3 transactions per second, which if actually spread evenly across the day (which they wouldn't be), it can handle around 260,000 transactions per day. A website like the New York Times does over 1MM unique per day.
2) In order to get settlements on your transactions, you have to pay a fee or else miners will ignore you. Current fees are around the equivalent of $0.04 USD. So your 1 cent transaction will not only bound up the network, but also cost you 5 cents to actually get processed.
Bitcoin is not now, nor will it ever be, a feasible solution for micropayments. And the ridiculous 21.co mining rig is even more ridiculous of a solution.
Micropayments would allow me to pay $1 for those articles viewed, or maybe even $5. The difference is that this would not require me to do anything else besides viewing the page, just like on the old prestel networks. But there the 'central authority' was the phone company and the whole tracking saga means that if you want to hit a large enough fraction of the ad blocker users that you'll have to take that scenario into account.
Wired figures that if you read any of their content at all you owe them $50 / year and that's an 'all you can eat' figure. So if you read all the articles they have that's a bargain, if you read only one then you might as well skip that one and the next and take your s.o. out for dinner.
A micropayment system would reduce the need for such calculations, it would allow a pay-as-you-go model which is far more effective for impulse buys such as articles.
Wired figures that if you read any of their content at all you owe them $50 / year and that's an 'all you can eat' figure. So if you read all the articles they have that's a bargain, if you read only one then you might as well skip that one and the next and take your s.o. out for dinner.
A micropayment system would reduce the need for such calculations, it would allow a pay-as-you-go model which is far more effective for impulse buys such as articles.
All the enthusiasm for micropayments is from people who want to collect micropayments. There is little or no consumer demand for the ability to pay them.
You'd think so... I signed up for flattr (https://flattr.com/) with some credit shortly after they launched. Over half a year, I found one website (https://lightspark.github.io/) I went to which wanted to receive my money (and they did). Everybody else served ads (which I blocked).
Hell, putting a bitcoin address on my blog gave me actual couple of cents. :)
Hell, putting a bitcoin address on my blog gave me actual couple of cents. :)
Clicking on a Gittip/Flattr/Patreon badge or looking up a donation Bitcoin address are always worth a sad chuckle.
That you've given out a whole schmeckle in a year isn't much of a counterpoint.
It's like when someone would tip you $0.002 on Reddit back when people still used CoinTip: insult for the receiver while making the giver feel like they made a difference -- altogether a net negative for the world.
That you've given out a whole schmeckle in a year isn't much of a counterpoint.
It's like when someone would tip you $0.002 on Reddit back when people still used CoinTip: insult for the receiver while making the giver feel like they made a difference -- altogether a net negative for the world.
I wouldn't judge B addresses by looking them up. I cycle mine once in a while, I'm pretty sure others do too.
Why are you being so negative about donations? Some pick up, some don't. I don't see anything negative about even minimal donation. It means someone actually cared enough to do anything. I'd be happy to receive a $0.002 tip for some content I created - and not because it makes any difference to my account.
Why are you being so negative about donations? Some pick up, some don't. I don't see anything negative about even minimal donation. It means someone actually cared enough to do anything. I'd be happy to receive a $0.002 tip for some content I created - and not because it makes any difference to my account.
They haven't found a killer app yet. This seems like a ripe moment for them to shine. I'd be all over micropayments like a cheap suit if it let me read any article on any service I wanted, ad-free.
Micropayments can be as automatic as ad auctions. Publishers would just give readers the option of winning the auctions for all ads on the page. Most simply, payments could come from deposit accounts for readers.
I'm not saying it wouldn't benefit anyone. Just that the friction of paying for anything at all, assuming a reasonable level of security, is such that if I'm willing to pay $.01 I'm probably willing to pay $1. If I'm willing to pay $1 I'm more than 20% likely to be willing to pay $5. So the optimal pricing strategy would never be a micropayment.
This is why there's nothing funded by micropayments. (Unless you count free-to-play gaming where, for some reason, people refer to a $14 average purchase as a micropayment.)
If it were possible to lower the friction while maintaining security, that presumably would already be the case, as there is a HUGE financial incentive on the part of sellers.
This is why there's nothing funded by micropayments. (Unless you count free-to-play gaming where, for some reason, people refer to a $14 average purchase as a micropayment.)
If it were possible to lower the friction while maintaining security, that presumably would already be the case, as there is a HUGE financial incentive on the part of sellers.
"there is a HUGE financial incentive on the part of sellers"
At least up until now, there have been ad sales, which you can think of as an incredibly heath-robinson micropayment system: a small amount of what I pay for every product I buy goes to their marketing department, which passes on a smaller amount to advertising firms, which give it to websites. The viability of advertising largely removed the incentive to develop micropayment systems; hopefully that's now changing.
At least up until now, there have been ad sales, which you can think of as an incredibly heath-robinson micropayment system: a small amount of what I pay for every product I buy goes to their marketing department, which passes on a smaller amount to advertising firms, which give it to websites. The viability of advertising largely removed the incentive to develop micropayment systems; hopefully that's now changing.
The most successful micropayment service of can think of is probably Spotify. It doesn't look how everyone was imagining micropayments but is effectively the same thing.
Their $1 per week only says that they won't serve ads to you as well, it says nothing about all of the other rubbish that still tracks you but doesn't display ads.
spot on. i wrote and gave them feedback saying i was happy to show their ads, but i do not consent to being tracked. their ads are only blocked because privacy badger blocks them due to tracking. no tracking, ads are shown.
Oh well, there goes another outlet. They can all do this, I don't care. Just won't read their content. Eventually there won't be any good non-paywalled content left, and I'll just figure something else out.
They want my money, they're going to have to either pay off the mob (Adblock Plus) or get together with all the other news outlets and give me a one stop shop option.
No way am I going to manage dozens of $1 a week subscriptions, logins, and such just to read articles linked to by Hacker News. Your content just isn't that important to me, sorry.
They want my money, they're going to have to either pay off the mob (Adblock Plus) or get together with all the other news outlets and give me a one stop shop option.
No way am I going to manage dozens of $1 a week subscriptions, logins, and such just to read articles linked to by Hacker News. Your content just isn't that important to me, sorry.
Not only that but every site that has your payment information could be hacked and someone steals it along with your password, email, and other information.
I like reading sites that don't require a login unless you want to leave a comment. My account was hacked at the Harvard Business Review and I used to leave comments there. They redid their website and limit what you can read now.
Sorry to say websites are moving towards a subscription model and I don't read every article on a website to make it worth the money. Just articles I have an interest in reading. I don't mind ads as long as they aren't annoying. As long as they don't take up a lot of the screen or pop up windows or a new browsing window or pop up a notice to enter my email to subscribe to their newsletter. I want to just read an article with no annoying stuff. Clickbait articles that take up several pages turn me off. Video ads that autoplay turn me off. That is why I installed an ad blocker to get rid of annoying things. I don't mind non annoying ads like Adwords or the typical banner ad.
I like reading sites that don't require a login unless you want to leave a comment. My account was hacked at the Harvard Business Review and I used to leave comments there. They redid their website and limit what you can read now.
Sorry to say websites are moving towards a subscription model and I don't read every article on a website to make it worth the money. Just articles I have an interest in reading. I don't mind ads as long as they aren't annoying. As long as they don't take up a lot of the screen or pop up windows or a new browsing window or pop up a notice to enter my email to subscribe to their newsletter. I want to just read an article with no annoying stuff. Clickbait articles that take up several pages turn me off. Video ads that autoplay turn me off. That is why I installed an ad blocker to get rid of annoying things. I don't mind non annoying ads like Adwords or the typical banner ad.
I wonder if this would be the case for Paypal Subscriptions. I am already using that for a couple of sites, albeit they are with video content. Each is a couple of Euros a month.
So, you wouldn't need to share your payment details with any publisher, but with just one , that distributes it further. This is really similar with the system in place in some countries, when you wanted to get a subscription to a newspaper, a central collecting money company would take your request, invoice you, etc, and distributed the newspaper to your door.
Again, old business, "but on the internet". And if we don't like paypal, we can always build something better, right?
So, you wouldn't need to share your payment details with any publisher, but with just one , that distributes it further. This is really similar with the system in place in some countries, when you wanted to get a subscription to a newspaper, a central collecting money company would take your request, invoice you, etc, and distributed the newspaper to your door.
Again, old business, "but on the internet". And if we don't like paypal, we can always build something better, right?
There are more and more websites that try to force users to disable Adblock, but it only means that the anti-ad efforts are moving to anti-anti-adblockers.
For now the easiest way is to use Anti-Adblock Killer[1], which so far works really well. Most likely they will add support for Wired once they enable their anti-adblock policy.
[1] https://github.com/reek/anti-adblock-killer
For now the easiest way is to use Anti-Adblock Killer[1], which so far works really well. Most likely they will add support for Wired once they enable their anti-adblock policy.
[1] https://github.com/reek/anti-adblock-killer
"Oh well, there goes another outlet. They can all do this, I don't care. Just won't read their content. Eventually there won't be any good non-paywalled content left, and I'll just figure something else out."
It reeks of desperation on their part - no good options left for their business or their business model.
That being said, while I will not miss wired.com at all, I will miss a site like arstechnica and would hate to think they are in the same boat ...
Presumably, given the even higher level of technical acumen among their readers, ars might be in an even worse situation.
It reeks of desperation on their part - no good options left for their business or their business model.
That being said, while I will not miss wired.com at all, I will miss a site like arstechnica and would hate to think they are in the same boat ...
Presumably, given the even higher level of technical acumen among their readers, ars might be in an even worse situation.
[deleted]
> We know that there are many reasons for running an ad blocker, from simply wanting a faster, cleaner browsing experience to concerns about security and tracking software
Sigh, again, these are just the incidentals of ads. I wish everyone was just completely honest about what ads are for: they are ploys to manipulate viewers into buying things that they did not need until they watched that ad. Ads are not some goodwill clever mechanism to keep magazines in business. The purpose of ads is not to keep Wired in business.
That being said, I think Wired is completely in their right to escalate in the adblocking arms race. I just wish that they were honest about the rules of engagement: either you are open to the possibility of acquiring a purchasing need that you did not have until you watched an ad, or you do not read Wired's articles.
Or like Hobbes said to Calvin...
http://ignatz.brinkster.net/cimages/joyce.gif
Sigh, again, these are just the incidentals of ads. I wish everyone was just completely honest about what ads are for: they are ploys to manipulate viewers into buying things that they did not need until they watched that ad. Ads are not some goodwill clever mechanism to keep magazines in business. The purpose of ads is not to keep Wired in business.
That being said, I think Wired is completely in their right to escalate in the adblocking arms race. I just wish that they were honest about the rules of engagement: either you are open to the possibility of acquiring a purchasing need that you did not have until you watched an ad, or you do not read Wired's articles.
Or like Hobbes said to Calvin...
http://ignatz.brinkster.net/cimages/joyce.gif
> they are ploys to manipulate viewers into buying things that they did not need until they watched that ad.
I think those ads definitely exist-- , but I think as well ads can just be a company with a thing, making sure you're aware of that thing.
I presume you enjoy at least some movies. I also presume you have missed movies that you would have enjoyed, because the trailer or whatever never made it to you. Getting that movie trailer or poster to you, and only getting those trailers or posters of movies that you'd like to you, is definitely advertising, but I don't think it's negative advertising.
I think those ads definitely exist-- , but I think as well ads can just be a company with a thing, making sure you're aware of that thing.
I presume you enjoy at least some movies. I also presume you have missed movies that you would have enjoyed, because the trailer or whatever never made it to you. Getting that movie trailer or poster to you, and only getting those trailers or posters of movies that you'd like to you, is definitely advertising, but I don't think it's negative advertising.
For wired the point is the ad is for them to stay in business. For the company advertising the point of the ad is to sell something. Maybe it is something you want, maybe it is something you don't need,maybe it is showing you need. But this isn't a conspiracy for wired to sell you something you don't need.
It's not a conspiracy, but it's so annoying that nobody speaks about the ultimate purpose of ads. Their ultimate purpose is not Wired. Keeping Wired in business is just one more incidental. If our purpose is to keep Wired in business, there are other ways besides ads.
So, let's talk about the ultimate purpose of ads. Do we endorse that purpose or not? That's the conversation I really want to be having.
So, let's talk about the ultimate purpose of ads. Do we endorse that purpose or not? That's the conversation I really want to be having.
[deleted]
> they are ploys to manipulate viewers into buying things that they did not need until they watched that ad.
I have to take issue with this, sorry. You may not be fully cognizant of your needs at the time you see an ad, and what if an ad tells you something about what you want rather than what you "need"? And who are you to make that call for anyone other than yourself?
I have to take issue with this, sorry. You may not be fully cognizant of your needs at the time you see an ad, and what if an ad tells you something about what you want rather than what you "need"? And who are you to make that call for anyone other than yourself?
Well, then I have to take issue with this.
Who are you to say what the grandparent is cognizant of or not?
I for one do definitely not need advertising to tell me what I need, if I need advertising to tell me then I did not need it.
> And who are you to make that call for anyone other than yourself?
The call was made on behalf of at least on other person, but in fact that suggestion was never made in the first place.
Who are you to say what the grandparent is cognizant of or not?
I for one do definitely not need advertising to tell me what I need, if I need advertising to tell me then I did not need it.
> And who are you to make that call for anyone other than yourself?
The call was made on behalf of at least on other person, but in fact that suggestion was never made in the first place.
While I generally hate being advertised to, there are certainly times when advertising has shown me things I didn't know existed but wanted to buy as soon as I did. Especially in the case of books.
I don't think we are using the word 'need' in the same way.
The thread changed from wants to needs about four replies ago.
>We want to offer you a way to support us while also addressing those concerns
Then actually address those concerns, rather than just telling us to ignore them (whitelist) or pay up.
I don't care about ads, really. Yes they are a petty annoyance, but I grew up with magazines, newspapers, TV, and radio all supported by ads. However, the way they presented their ads was markedly different.
* Their ads didn't invite dozens of third parties to spy on everything I do.
* Their ads didn't break into my home, rifle through my things, and set up operations doing potentially illegal activities in my basement.
* When I wanted to read a 1-page article in their magazine, yes they showed me some ads, but I didn't have to pay the full cost of having a 20-volume encyclopedia delivered to my house just for the ads on that page.
Find a way to advertise without constantly assaulting the reader. Actually address your readers' concerns instead of downplaying them and knowingly causing harm to your readers. You have other options. Taking them, and proving that you can be successful without being evil, that would make a difference.
Then actually address those concerns, rather than just telling us to ignore them (whitelist) or pay up.
I don't care about ads, really. Yes they are a petty annoyance, but I grew up with magazines, newspapers, TV, and radio all supported by ads. However, the way they presented their ads was markedly different.
* Their ads didn't invite dozens of third parties to spy on everything I do.
* Their ads didn't break into my home, rifle through my things, and set up operations doing potentially illegal activities in my basement.
* When I wanted to read a 1-page article in their magazine, yes they showed me some ads, but I didn't have to pay the full cost of having a 20-volume encyclopedia delivered to my house just for the ads on that page.
Find a way to advertise without constantly assaulting the reader. Actually address your readers' concerns instead of downplaying them and knowingly causing harm to your readers. You have other options. Taking them, and proving that you can be successful without being evil, that would make a difference.
Forbes has been doing this for a while on its website. (Or, at least for a while it has been detecting the ad blocking-software that I have been using for much longer.) I have basically stopped reading Forbes (which maybe was a good idea on other grounds) and have learned to appreciate stories from competing publications. If Wired doesn't want my eyeballs to visit its site, I'll just stop bringing them there.
Wired is in the business of making money. You don't pay them any money directly, so they make it up by showing you ads. If you're going them to prevent them from making money that way, then they don't give a hoot about your eyeballs.
> so they make it up by showing you ads.
Correction: they make it up by giving third parties the ability to lift each and every bit of identifiable information available from your browser, to profile you, to sell your demographic information (lat/lon/approximate age/wealth/family situation/etc, etc) to middlemen who will then in turn sell the opportunity to advertise to you in a real time bidding process to the highest bidder, some ad agency that bought campaign inventory.
If it was just the ads I highly doubt there would be any issue at all.
Correction: they make it up by giving third parties the ability to lift each and every bit of identifiable information available from your browser, to profile you, to sell your demographic information (lat/lon/approximate age/wealth/family situation/etc, etc) to middlemen who will then in turn sell the opportunity to advertise to you in a real time bidding process to the highest bidder, some ad agency that bought campaign inventory.
If it was just the ads I highly doubt there would be any issue at all.
Exactly. If Wired would show me static image ads that do not slow down my browser with scripts and use my bandwidth to track me across the web, I would add them to my whitelist.
Wired doesn't know any of that stuff about you. Facebook and Google might which is why they have strong privacy policies and opt out procedures.
Wired may or may not, I don't know. But they are the facilitator for this info. Also, Facebook and Google may have "opt out" procedures, but they've been... less than trustworthy with those in the past, and I simply don't trust them.
And every time I've relented and turned off my ad blocker for a domain, they have made be regret it and I turn it back on (and often never visit the site again).
When will these clueless execs realize that if they didn't abuse our eyeballs they'd have our eyeballs?
When will these clueless execs realize that if they didn't abuse our eyeballs they'd have our eyeballs?
They realize it all right. But the money is just too good and the arms race dictates they join in or be left in the dust. It's a hard problem, and I don't think wired has found the answer just yet.
[deleted]
What adblocker are you using? I've tried a couple and have had no issues viewing Forbes. Just have to click past the "quote of the day"
Ad Block Plus is my main ad blocker, but I had better check to see if the conflict is with another Chrome add-on.
not OP, but I also run noscript, which I think is the culprit for me.
I use Google Contributor [1], which _effectively_ functions as an ad blocker, one that compensates website owners for the ads they're not displaying.
A different, but equivalent, way of looking at the product is that Google Contributor lets me essentially enter a op ad in the advertising auction for any web page I visit; if my bid wins, I see a placeholder instead of the ad. One nice side effect of this scheme is that the ads that do make it through are generally of high quality, since they're the ones for which some advertiser managed to outbid me.
[1] https://www.google.com/contributor/welcome/
A different, but equivalent, way of looking at the product is that Google Contributor lets me essentially enter a op ad in the advertising auction for any web page I visit; if my bid wins, I see a placeholder instead of the ad. One nice side effect of this scheme is that the ads that do make it through are generally of high quality, since they're the ones for which some advertiser managed to outbid me.
[1] https://www.google.com/contributor/welcome/
Me too. Unfortunately, it only is able to block DoubleClick ads, but I agree it makes the web a nicer place, across all devices, without having to deprive websites I go to of revenue.
If I was dying to read a Wired article I could just google it. I'm sure there'll be a cached copy somewhere. If that were to fail then I'd just drive a headless browser to the url, or even a bot, and pull the content out. Thankfully, I'm not that desperate to do either. Wired doesn't have as much leverage as they think they do. And frankly, for a technology flagship as they used to be, I'd expect them to work with the community, not against it. Find a bulletproof way to serve malware-free ads and serve them from your domain and I'd gladly whitelist your site. Otherwise I'm not risking it.
> we will restrict access to articles on WIRED.com if you are using an ad blocker
well, i will restrict my viewing of WIRED.com then. Like completely.
well, i will restrict my viewing of WIRED.com then. Like completely.
Since they aren't making any money from your visits to their site anyways I doubt they will be losing a lot of sleep.
That is quite the paradox, isn't it...
If they lose significant eyeballs, they can't charge a premium for the ad space. With less premium, they make less money. With less money, they can't write the articles.
At least with ad block and non-adblock eyeballs, they could say we get "XXX"k traffic per day/month/year. Less traffic overall will be bad in the long run.
If they lose significant eyeballs, they can't charge a premium for the ad space. With less premium, they make less money. With less money, they can't write the articles.
At least with ad block and non-adblock eyeballs, they could say we get "XXX"k traffic per day/month/year. Less traffic overall will be bad in the long run.
Not to mention they lose all the viral follow-on effects. If Jane never reads another article of theirs, then Jane never shares another article of theirs, and never refers a new reader or subscriber, and on goes the cascade multiplied by however many people stop reading. They end up cutting off their own oxygen.
The people commenting here that Wired doesn't need to care about ad-blocking readers, are entirely ignoring this critical element. It's a big component of how new people get introduced to Wired.
The people commenting here that Wired doesn't need to care about ad-blocking readers, are entirely ignoring this critical element. It's a big component of how new people get introduced to Wired.
I hope you did not think that the advertisers aren't capable of running a little estimation program on all those clicks going 'in' to wired that did not result in the displaying of an ad tag?
If there is any party that is aware of how many people on wired's web property are running an ad blocker it is the advertising networks.
Wired is not telling them that they get 'XXX'k traffic per time unit, they're being told what their traffic is and what percentage of them has an ad blocker installed.
If there is any party that is aware of how many people on wired's web property are running an ad blocker it is the advertising networks.
Wired is not telling them that they get 'XXX'k traffic per time unit, they're being told what their traffic is and what percentage of them has an ad blocker installed.
I hope the advertisers realize that we have not even come close to hitting a critical mass of people that install adblockers in the first place. I am amazed by how many people don't run adblockers. I tell everyone I know to run them... Remember it is only 1 out of 5 right now... It will be much higher as the tech illiterate are taught how to install them.
The truth is, I can always just go outside. Go for a run, Go for a hike with my kids... collect some rocks, smash rocks looking for geodes, play catch, play hide and go-seek, cook, drink. All will be much better than me sitting on my computer reading articles on Wired.com
The truth is, I can always just go outside. Go for a run, Go for a hike with my kids... collect some rocks, smash rocks looking for geodes, play catch, play hide and go-seek, cook, drink. All will be much better than me sitting on my computer reading articles on Wired.com
No, they cannot say that they have xxx users per day/month/year, the reports of the adservers are the one that are read by the advertisers (and the editors), the number of visitors is useless if you can't serve them ads.
Advertisers don't care (or measure, really) non-ad-viewing users when deciding where to run these campaigns. So you're already not counted.
If that's how they think they should probably take a class explaining network effects and how the ability to share a link can help spread their product.
They will however lose exposure and upvotes on places like HN, which means their overall traffic will drop and they'll lose money like that instead.
Most of the content I read comes through places like HN. If Wired loses many of the more active participants on HN (who are probably more likely to run adblockers), their articles will get posted less and upvoted less, so they'll lose many of the people who aren't running adblockers too. Would be very interesting to see how much impact those active participants have overall on their readership - my guess is it's a lot.
Actually, this can almost completely wipe out Wired from google search results.
One metric that is used to rank sites is the bounce rate. If ad blocking users simply go back to Google and look for another result, then they will get penalised by Google.
One metric that is used to rank sites is the bounce rate. If ad blocking users simply go back to Google and look for another result, then they will get penalised by Google.
I actually think this is a reasonable move for them. They have to pay their staff and keep the lights on while producing their content. It is kind of entitled and ridiculous for readers to think the party of well-researched, well-written and insightful content for free could go on forever. You either should have to pay for it explicitly with a subscription fee, or consent to ads and tracking. Yes, there is a lot of mediocre fluff/stuff there, but there is easily $1/week worth of high quality content imho.
And, if you do not want to partake, then don't. No one is making you read Wired. But, I strongly suspect that publishers that want to keep producing high quality content without running themselves into the ground, as ad blockers become more prevalent, are going to go down this road. The folks here that saying "Ad blockers or bust!" are going to be left with increasingly fringe and lower quality content in the future.
And, if you do not want to partake, then don't. No one is making you read Wired. But, I strongly suspect that publishers that want to keep producing high quality content without running themselves into the ground, as ad blockers become more prevalent, are going to go down this road. The folks here that saying "Ad blockers or bust!" are going to be left with increasingly fringe and lower quality content in the future.
I don't think most people have a problem with the concept of ads, after all, every print magazine is filled with them.
The problem is that ads on the web have become more and more obnoxious as click through rates have fallen. The ads have dramatically reduced the usability of some sites, and that's before you get into the issue of tracking and malware.
Had Wired curated their ads to ensure that no full screen popups and other annoying dreck never got onto their site, they might not have a problem. But even then, so many other sites are filled with terrible ads that users would keep using ad blockers anyway.
Maybe their plan will work, maybe it won't. Seems to me that they're going to have to be a little more clever about this than just charging people $52 a year for Wired.com. Maybe they're counting on a very small percentage of "whales" to make it worthwhile but I think the vast majority of people using ad blockers doesn't get enough value out of Wired.com to subscribe, especially considering that it is 2 to 5 times as expensive as the print/tablet subscription.
The problem is that ads on the web have become more and more obnoxious as click through rates have fallen. The ads have dramatically reduced the usability of some sites, and that's before you get into the issue of tracking and malware.
Had Wired curated their ads to ensure that no full screen popups and other annoying dreck never got onto their site, they might not have a problem. But even then, so many other sites are filled with terrible ads that users would keep using ad blockers anyway.
Maybe their plan will work, maybe it won't. Seems to me that they're going to have to be a little more clever about this than just charging people $52 a year for Wired.com. Maybe they're counting on a very small percentage of "whales" to make it worthwhile but I think the vast majority of people using ad blockers doesn't get enough value out of Wired.com to subscribe, especially considering that it is 2 to 5 times as expensive as the print/tablet subscription.
>"the vast majority of people using ad blockers doesn't get enough value out of Wired.com to subscribe"
Agreed. Subscribing isn't an option for casual readers of any online publication. Nobody is spending hours on Wired every week! Whitelisting Wired isn't a great option either, so there's not really a good solution yet.
Agreed. Subscribing isn't an option for casual readers of any online publication. Nobody is spending hours on Wired every week! Whitelisting Wired isn't a great option either, so there's not really a good solution yet.
I don't mind ads but I do mind tracking.
* If Wired would implement a solution that provides confidentiality to users, following the approach of The Intercept [1], I would have no problem with it.
* If Wired would show me ads I was interested in, I'd be happy to see them (assuming my confidentiality is preserved).
* If Wired would provide a way to pay them without having to go through another website registration and credit card payment process, I'd pay them. I don't have time to register for and pay every website I read using the current systems, and Wired isn't at the top of my list.
If users are so annoyed by part of your website that they are investing time and effort in disabling it, perhaps the problem is with your website.
[1] https://theintercept.com/2015/11/04/what-the-intercepts-new-...
* If Wired would implement a solution that provides confidentiality to users, following the approach of The Intercept [1], I would have no problem with it.
* If Wired would show me ads I was interested in, I'd be happy to see them (assuming my confidentiality is preserved).
* If Wired would provide a way to pay them without having to go through another website registration and credit card payment process, I'd pay them. I don't have time to register for and pay every website I read using the current systems, and Wired isn't at the top of my list.
If users are so annoyed by part of your website that they are investing time and effort in disabling it, perhaps the problem is with your website.
[1] https://theintercept.com/2015/11/04/what-the-intercepts-new-...
This is exactly the crux of the argument and wired totally blew it by not addressing this in a more direct manner.
You can innovate around the issue, like some of the comments mention.
You should focus on growing sustainably, instead of selling yourselves to advertisers for quick cash. God knows there are a plethora of other places we can get our content from. There's enough information pollution in our daily lives - I won't accept you polluting my reading of your 'well-written' articles.
So, in summary... good riddance.
You should focus on growing sustainably, instead of selling yourselves to advertisers for quick cash. God knows there are a plethora of other places we can get our content from. There's enough information pollution in our daily lives - I won't accept you polluting my reading of your 'well-written' articles.
So, in summary... good riddance.
Agreed. I was recently miffed when they switched their RSS feed to only include a snippet instead of actual content. I was also recently miffed when Forbes started blocking ad blockers.
I have subscribed to the Wired print magazine off & on over the past decade and never paid more than $10/yr for it. I am not currently subscribing, but if presumably they'll put their best content in print, too, why in the world would anyone pay 5x the print cost for online access?
I have subscribed to the Wired print magazine off & on over the past decade and never paid more than $10/yr for it. I am not currently subscribing, but if presumably they'll put their best content in print, too, why in the world would anyone pay 5x the print cost for online access?
Completely agree on the subscription.
I like the idea of paying for subscriptions for no-ad service. However, the $1/week seems a little high. I might read 10 to 20 articles a year on wired.com.
I do pay subscriptions for things that I use (almost) daily: Hulu no commercials version, Netflix, and Google Music.
So, good idea, but I would expect a subscription to perhaps cost $10 to $15/year. Just my opinion...
I do pay subscriptions for things that I use (almost) daily: Hulu no commercials version, Netflix, and Google Music.
So, good idea, but I would expect a subscription to perhaps cost $10 to $15/year. Just my opinion...
Wired kind of agrees: if you subscribe to the print edition (~12/yr IIRC), you get access to the digital editions too.
The $1/week is a ridiculous grab from people who are unaware that there is a cheaper option available.
The $1/week is a ridiculous grab from people who are unaware that there is a cheaper option available.
Wired is one of those mags you can easily get a subscription for under $5. Free subs used to be pretty common too. My current subscription goes till something like 2024 due to stacking a bunch of free or cheap subscriptions together. $1/week makes no sense.
Yep: https://subscribe.wired.com/subscribe/wired/
Something squirrelly in the pricing tiers.
Something squirrelly in the pricing tiers.
Indeed. You can subscribe to digital-only Wired for $19.99 anywhere in the world, and in the US it includes a print copy too.
I'd consider a $1/week if it covered all Conde Nast publications, or a significant portion of the internet. By that logic, though, I'd prefer if a subscription to Texture (Next Issue) or other content services included free access to the affiliated websites without ads. It adds up quick, but even the weekly version works out to $3.46/week for basically every magazine I'd care to read...
Of course ... I'm just saying this. I actually don't read magazines. But I'd pay for a subscription, especially if I could share it with family.
I'd consider a $1/week if it covered all Conde Nast publications, or a significant portion of the internet. By that logic, though, I'd prefer if a subscription to Texture (Next Issue) or other content services included free access to the affiliated websites without ads. It adds up quick, but even the weekly version works out to $3.46/week for basically every magazine I'd care to read...
Of course ... I'm just saying this. I actually don't read magazines. But I'd pay for a subscription, especially if I could share it with family.
Those are probably subsidised by ad revenue.
I'd prefer to pay, say, $10/mo for _all_ the content I read, and that's basically the very upper bound. I figure $120/yr is a much better deal than what they (where by "they" I mean all the news sources I read) are getting from ads right now. I don't click on ads, and brand advertisements don't pay shit.
Texture is an attempt to be that. Like Netflix they don't have everything you could ever want. But they have enough.
I am most likely to see a wired article by following a HN link. That texture has some other article that is similar is totally pointless, as it is either the wired article or nothing.
Don't get me wrong, texture is probably doing great things, but until we get copyright changed to include a right to stream any work (subject to payment), such collections will be mostly pointless.
Don't get me wrong, texture is probably doing great things, but until we get copyright changed to include a right to stream any work (subject to payment), such collections will be mostly pointless.
But the question is: are those magazines themselves stripped of all ads? Or do I pay for the magazines, and then find out they're 50% ads?
Perhaps something like Google Contributor.
It's completely unlike Google Contributor. Google Contributor keeps Google in the loop and only removes _Google_ ads if you win an auction. All other ads keep shitting all over your page. This would let you disable _all_ ads, yet still pay the publisher.
How do you propose to do this?
Fixed buffet-style fee would be difficult. Per-page micropayments, however, could be accomplished with some form of blockchain (probably not Bitcoin though, it's collapsing under its own weight as it is), perhaps with an extra layer of anonymization to get rid of tracking. The problem with micropayments is greed: publishers think their content is worth vastly more than it really is.
If I knew how to do buffet-style scheme for this without involving things like carrier billing and DNS tracking, I'd be working on my own startup RFN. This could undo the likes of Google and FB and make the web a much better, and much more private place.
If I knew how to do buffet-style scheme for this without involving things like carrier billing and DNS tracking, I'd be working on my own startup RFN. This could undo the likes of Google and FB and make the web a much better, and much more private place.
I have split websites that I visit into two categories:
1) Websites that still render and are readable after uMatrix, uBlock Origin, and a few other restrictive content filters are done with them. I continue reading and enjoying these, provided the content is worth my reading time.
2) Websites that are broken, or otherwise make the content inaccessible. For example, a "dialog" appears over the content, inviting me to join their newsletter. These sites get the ol' ^W or ⌘W, and after a few visits I learn to never visit them again.
Also, sites in category #2, are auto-censored anywhere I moderate.
1) Websites that still render and are readable after uMatrix, uBlock Origin, and a few other restrictive content filters are done with them. I continue reading and enjoying these, provided the content is worth my reading time.
2) Websites that are broken, or otherwise make the content inaccessible. For example, a "dialog" appears over the content, inviting me to join their newsletter. These sites get the ol' ^W or ⌘W, and after a few visits I learn to never visit them again.
Also, sites in category #2, are auto-censored anywhere I moderate.
I feel as though this is my natural reaction as well.
That said, I appreciate how wired is handling the situation and communicating transparently and reasonably. I may consider white-listing the site simply out of support.
That said, I appreciate how wired is handling the situation and communicating transparently and reasonably. I may consider white-listing the site simply out of support.
This is a nice post from an organization that clearly cares about their readers. That's hard to write, and the staff at Wired deserve credit for their effort to be open and direct with us.
Unfortunately the post fails to address the reasons that their readers USE ad blockers. If only they had gone a LITTLE bit farther in this post and made specific promises in exchange for being whitelisted. Here are the promises that would have convinced me.
- Third party scripts will be kept to under 33% of page weight. (They're at ~50% for this article, and that's with a 1.1MB gif in the content!)
- We will respect "do not track" headers in your browser (or settings on your Wired account) by excluding you from ad- and analytics-related tracking
- If you have enabled "do not track" headers in your browser, we will only serve you anonymous ads
- We may serve you ads based on your browsing behavior at wired.com, but they will always include a short explanation. For example, "because you were interested in XXXX:"
- Our ad placement and content will follow strict limitations (link to a public page of their guidelines), based on the the Adblock "Acceptable Ads" rules (https://adblockplus.org/en/acceptable-ads#criteria).
- We will serve all content and ads over HTTPS, from within the wired.com TLD (or include a list of specific sources), so you can trust that it's really coming from us.
Since Wired doesn't offer to address any of the issues that make (technical) people enable an ad blocker, the post is reduced to an ultimatum. They're asking you to make a special exception for Wired, and offering only a stick as incentive. No carrot, no quid pro quo, and no addressing your concerns. And they're doing it on a 3.3MB page with 1.5MB worth of third party ads and tracking code attached.
Giving an ultimatum to 20% of your readership sounds like a stupid business strategy, and I doubt it's what the Wired board had in mind. Perhaps they could learn something from app designers: if something is so objectionable about your Ux that 20% of your user base uses third party alternatives to get at your content, try a little market research to improve that Ux. Just do a cursory investigation into WHAT people find so terrible, and WHY they use the alternative; consider how you might change your Ux to make that unnecessary. This is 20% of your userbase who likes your content so much, they find ways to access it despite a shitty OOTB Ux. It would be a big sacrifice to cut off such a dedicated (and large) group of fans.
Unfortunately the post fails to address the reasons that their readers USE ad blockers. If only they had gone a LITTLE bit farther in this post and made specific promises in exchange for being whitelisted. Here are the promises that would have convinced me.
- Third party scripts will be kept to under 33% of page weight. (They're at ~50% for this article, and that's with a 1.1MB gif in the content!)
- We will respect "do not track" headers in your browser (or settings on your Wired account) by excluding you from ad- and analytics-related tracking
- If you have enabled "do not track" headers in your browser, we will only serve you anonymous ads
- We may serve you ads based on your browsing behavior at wired.com, but they will always include a short explanation. For example, "because you were interested in XXXX:"
- Our ad placement and content will follow strict limitations (link to a public page of their guidelines), based on the the Adblock "Acceptable Ads" rules (https://adblockplus.org/en/acceptable-ads#criteria).
- We will serve all content and ads over HTTPS, from within the wired.com TLD (or include a list of specific sources), so you can trust that it's really coming from us.
Since Wired doesn't offer to address any of the issues that make (technical) people enable an ad blocker, the post is reduced to an ultimatum. They're asking you to make a special exception for Wired, and offering only a stick as incentive. No carrot, no quid pro quo, and no addressing your concerns. And they're doing it on a 3.3MB page with 1.5MB worth of third party ads and tracking code attached.
Giving an ultimatum to 20% of your readership sounds like a stupid business strategy, and I doubt it's what the Wired board had in mind. Perhaps they could learn something from app designers: if something is so objectionable about your Ux that 20% of your user base uses third party alternatives to get at your content, try a little market research to improve that Ux. Just do a cursory investigation into WHAT people find so terrible, and WHY they use the alternative; consider how you might change your Ux to make that unnecessary. This is 20% of your userbase who likes your content so much, they find ways to access it despite a shitty OOTB Ux. It would be a big sacrifice to cut off such a dedicated (and large) group of fans.
This was important enough to me that I put it into a blog post: https://ohthehugemanatee.org/blog/2016/02/09/an-open-letter-...
Best comment here. If they did something like this I'd happily whitelist them. As it stands now? Not a chance.
I'm sure market research has been done. But 52 dollars a year is probably too high a price for an ad free version of wired. I would pay maybe three or four dollars a year, which has to be more money than they would possibly make off of the advertising revenue I would generate in a lifetime.
> which has to be more money than they would possibly make off of the advertising revenue I would generate in a lifetime.
You are so terribly wrong about that.
You are so terribly wrong about that.
Any links to research on how much advertising dollars the average website makes per unique visitor would be interesting to read.
Prime properties such as wired make really good money on their visitors. The 'average website' makes rather a lot less than that (hence the existence of supply side optimizers).
The online version of the media kit for the wired property:
http://www.condenast.com/brands/wired/media-kit/web
No rates quoted but:
http://adage.com/article/media/digital-cracks-50-ad-revenue-...
Lists the ad revenues at 50% of the total (online + print), that was 2013.
Last year:
http://digiday.com/publishers/two-thirds-wireds-revenue-digi...
So you can see why they're panicking, adblockers are taking a significant bite out of their revenues.
And then there is the print side: (~115K for a full page ad in the print magazine).
http://www.wired.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/2015_WIRED_M...
Is a good primer into how a print/online property such as wired profiles itself to advertisers.
Still trying to find an actual CPM / CPC rate for wired but no luck so far, but
http://monetizepros.com/display-advertising/average-cpm-rate...
Has premium display sitting at about $10 CPM and that's not a bad number compared to what I know about this field, the actual rate for a property such as wired would be a little higher than that (-15% agency fees), but not by much so that's a good starting point.
The online version of the media kit for the wired property:
http://www.condenast.com/brands/wired/media-kit/web
No rates quoted but:
http://adage.com/article/media/digital-cracks-50-ad-revenue-...
Lists the ad revenues at 50% of the total (online + print), that was 2013.
Last year:
http://digiday.com/publishers/two-thirds-wireds-revenue-digi...
So you can see why they're panicking, adblockers are taking a significant bite out of their revenues.
And then there is the print side: (~115K for a full page ad in the print magazine).
http://www.wired.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/2015_WIRED_M...
Is a good primer into how a print/online property such as wired profiles itself to advertisers.
Still trying to find an actual CPM / CPC rate for wired but no luck so far, but
http://monetizepros.com/display-advertising/average-cpm-rate...
Has premium display sitting at about $10 CPM and that's not a bad number compared to what I know about this field, the actual rate for a property such as wired would be a little higher than that (-15% agency fees), but not by much so that's a good starting point.
The model I would like to see involves micro-payments. I would be willing to "tip" say $0.10 or $0.15 here and there to instantly unlock certain articles. I think if this were easy to do then wired and other websites like it would make a lot more money over all from it's content.
The problem though is that with today's credit card infrastructure the processing fees make this sort of thing unrealistic, and the emerging alternative (blockchain tech) is not yet widely enough accepted by consumers to be useful in this regard.
I think we'll get there eventually, and a new "culture of tipping" on the web may flourish in a way that is very healthy for the journalistic community as a whole. It could also mean that for instance a poor person in a remote part of the world could record a youtube video of some traditional folk art or dance and then upload it to multiple social platforms and receive material amounts of money from random visitors within the first few hours without first needing to "strike a deal with youtube" or anything like that.
This might reorient village life in some areas away from making trinkets to sell to western tourists and instead towards making traditional creative art to share with a global audience. This could in theory help counteract the "westernization effect" that global cultures have been experiencing.
The problem though is that with today's credit card infrastructure the processing fees make this sort of thing unrealistic, and the emerging alternative (blockchain tech) is not yet widely enough accepted by consumers to be useful in this regard.
I think we'll get there eventually, and a new "culture of tipping" on the web may flourish in a way that is very healthy for the journalistic community as a whole. It could also mean that for instance a poor person in a remote part of the world could record a youtube video of some traditional folk art or dance and then upload it to multiple social platforms and receive material amounts of money from random visitors within the first few hours without first needing to "strike a deal with youtube" or anything like that.
This might reorient village life in some areas away from making trinkets to sell to western tourists and instead towards making traditional creative art to share with a global audience. This could in theory help counteract the "westernization effect" that global cultures have been experiencing.
As stated above, Google's Contributor network essentially does this.
It looks like a move in that direction for sure and I think that's great. I personally don't believe that blockchain is the "only way" to make this idea happen of course. I think that there is an opportunity now for companies to "preempt" the wide adoption of blockchain tech on the web by offering a service that provides the same flexibility as blockchain tipping, but with a more frictionless user experience. I personally believe the key to doing this effectively will be
1. support for micro transaction amounts (The PPC business already think in terms of clicks that are worth a few cents on the dollar, and I think ultimately the consumer will think like this as well). In other words I think tipping needs to feel non-material to the consumer, but a dollar.. that's almost enough to buy a domestic draft beer.
2. support for truly global payment (tipping) and global remittance with reliable, flexible, always on time payouts.
It would need to embrace blockchain as a payout method because this is the only way to offer truely global remittance capability right now. In other words there's no way to get around blockchain completely so it's better to support it.
One way this could work would be for the platform to issue it's own alt-coin which rides on the back of the platform's reputation. Bloggers in diverse foreign locales where it's difficult or time consuming to receive bank wires could exchange these alt-coins to whatever they need to arrive at local currency. The consumer in priveldged markets would be sheilded, so to speak from thinking in terms of blockchain units because the platform would make it easy for them to tip and be paid in dollar amounts using the standard payment methodologies such as bank wires, ACH, and debit/credit cards. This reduces the amount of friction experienced by the average consumer in the most developed markets while at the same time enabling participation by people in the under-developed markets. In this way the platform could be thought to support a form of "graceful degradation" from a frictionless mobile/web consumer experience at one end to the complexies of blockchain / currency exchange at the other end.
3. Privacy protection
4. Fairness. The fact that you have your brand reputation tied to the platform why it's worth hosting not because of direct revenue. In other words No Squeeze.
5. A no-hassle embeddable tipping badge that any webmaster can easily leverage
6. No demanding of identity documents or tax id numbers while witholding payout. It should be the responsibility of the webmaster who is being tipped to comply with his local laws and tax regulations.
I think that if the ball is dropped in any of these areas then some variation of blockchain will ultimately win.
1. support for micro transaction amounts (The PPC business already think in terms of clicks that are worth a few cents on the dollar, and I think ultimately the consumer will think like this as well). In other words I think tipping needs to feel non-material to the consumer, but a dollar.. that's almost enough to buy a domestic draft beer.
2. support for truly global payment (tipping) and global remittance with reliable, flexible, always on time payouts.
It would need to embrace blockchain as a payout method because this is the only way to offer truely global remittance capability right now. In other words there's no way to get around blockchain completely so it's better to support it.
One way this could work would be for the platform to issue it's own alt-coin which rides on the back of the platform's reputation. Bloggers in diverse foreign locales where it's difficult or time consuming to receive bank wires could exchange these alt-coins to whatever they need to arrive at local currency. The consumer in priveldged markets would be sheilded, so to speak from thinking in terms of blockchain units because the platform would make it easy for them to tip and be paid in dollar amounts using the standard payment methodologies such as bank wires, ACH, and debit/credit cards. This reduces the amount of friction experienced by the average consumer in the most developed markets while at the same time enabling participation by people in the under-developed markets. In this way the platform could be thought to support a form of "graceful degradation" from a frictionless mobile/web consumer experience at one end to the complexies of blockchain / currency exchange at the other end.
3. Privacy protection
4. Fairness. The fact that you have your brand reputation tied to the platform why it's worth hosting not because of direct revenue. In other words No Squeeze.
5. A no-hassle embeddable tipping badge that any webmaster can easily leverage
6. No demanding of identity documents or tax id numbers while witholding payout. It should be the responsibility of the webmaster who is being tipped to comply with his local laws and tax regulations.
I think that if the ball is dropped in any of these areas then some variation of blockchain will ultimately win.
How are they going to detect ad blocking? They're going to have to spend a long time fighting anti-ad block detection.
You can't trust the client. Ads are displayed in the client. It would take hardware level ad serving to make ad serving and anti-ad blocking feasible.
You can't trust the client. Ads are displayed in the client. It would take hardware level ad serving to make ad serving and anti-ad blocking feasible.
Trivial answer: the webpage is a monolithic PNG. Good luck building a general-purpose image parser & modifier, especially on a webpage with embedded animations.
There are ways to make it very difficult to distinguish between content and ads, that's all you need to do. At the highest level, the content is the ads, which is usually what ends up happening to trade publications anyway.
There are ways to make it very difficult to distinguish between content and ads, that's all you need to do. At the highest level, the content is the ads, which is usually what ends up happening to trade publications anyway.
A monolithic PNG wouldn't have annoying animated ads or videos that push down content, they wouldn't pop over. They wouldn't be serving malware since it would come from wired. I would miss the ability to select text, but I wouldn't be bothered by the ads anymore.
Maybe now if they served a canvas element, and put all the content in that with animated ads, that would be more bothersome.
Maybe now if they served a canvas element, and put all the content in that with animated ads, that would be more bothersome.
This might happen. But I can tell you there will be some very vocal opposition to this (users of screen readers for instance, and anybody living in a country with accessibility laws will be very happy to give you merry hell).
As everyone else has said, I would prefer that (if I were browsing with no filtering).
Here's the trivial client blocking method: OCR and break the result into different groups by page location, font size and color; the article will be the largest groups of text with the same font. Large images and charts that were part of the original article would be cropped out and re-inserted into the final document. Within a few days you would see a browser extension made with adaptable filtering for most sites that used the monolithic PNG.
Here's the trivial client blocking method: OCR and break the result into different groups by page location, font size and color; the article will be the largest groups of text with the same font. Large images and charts that were part of the original article would be cropped out and re-inserted into the final document. Within a few days you would see a browser extension made with adaptable filtering for most sites that used the monolithic PNG.
A monolithic png doesn't track your browsing, clickjack you or even allow you to click on ads. That'd be terrible for advertisers.
I always wondered why didn't youtube concatenate the ad content directly to the main content stream. It should be possible without reencoding and maybe a minimal muxing overhead (hell DASH is not even multiplexed). It would be quite hard to block that.
If somebody did that monolithic PNG a bunch of hackers would see it as a challenge and there would be a "Show HN: how to get around wireds new png system" within a week.
Trivial answer: the webpage is a monolithic PNG
Yes, please! If they are going to serve every article as a single static file, then I might actually consider paying for it.
Yes, please! If they are going to serve every article as a single static file, then I might actually consider paying for it.
Exactly. The best part is it doesn't even need to be blocked in the client. I'm running Pi-Hole:https://pi-hole.net/ with DNS Crypt:https://dnscrypt.org/ on a couple of Raspberry Pi 2s on my network acting as internal caching name servers. Sure, I also run uBlock, but I don't even see ads on mobile apps because they're all blocked via DNS long before the client even has to parse it.
Do you want to start a tit-for-tat war? Publishers could redirect ads using their sites as a proxy.
There's no war. It's simple. I choose what I allow to run on my computer. End of story. It's the height of arrogance that all of these companies, both the publishers and the ad tech firms, think they can do whatever they want to users with no recourse. I bought the computer to serve my needs, I have control over how it functions to do so.
But if your usage of your computer that you bought depends on their servers, it seems they would have some sort of say in how you use it.
That is, they can negotiate with you using your desire to access their servers as leverage.
You can refuse to negotiate, in which case they can take steps to block your access to their server. You can use technological means to get around that, but then they can adjust their own technology to block your new strategy.
And then you're in a war.
That is, they can negotiate with you using your desire to access their servers as leverage.
You can refuse to negotiate, in which case they can take steps to block your access to their server. You can use technological means to get around that, but then they can adjust their own technology to block your new strategy.
And then you're in a war.
There's a reason why protocols (such as HTTP) intended for use in the public space refer to a client connection as a "request". I am asking them for a specific set of data, they are welcome to choose whether to provide it or not. Once I've received it, and it's on my computer, I get to choose whether or not to let it run. In the case of advertisements, I have more security concerns than mere annoyance, so I choose to block them. If you don't wish to serve me content, go right ahead, just be aware that there is nothing you can do to force me to expose my system to your potentially malicious advertisements.
I wasn't saying that you're obligated to look at ads. I said that if you want to use someone else's servers AND want to block ads, you're going to end up in a technical war.
You said "there is no war", but obviously there is.
Your choices are:
* use the servers and look at ads * don't use the servers at all * use the servers and try to block ads
In this third option (which seems to be the one you chose), the people who own the servers can then try to block your access to the site. You can then try to circumvent that block, then they can try to block you again.
This is a war. You said "there is no war".
The subtext here is that, grand proclamations about sovereignty over your computing devices aside, by making other people's servers a crucial component of your computing you are ceding to them some leverage and therefore control.
You said "there is no war", but obviously there is.
Your choices are:
* use the servers and look at ads * don't use the servers at all * use the servers and try to block ads
In this third option (which seems to be the one you chose), the people who own the servers can then try to block your access to the site. You can then try to circumvent that block, then they can try to block you again.
This is a war. You said "there is no war".
The subtext here is that, grand proclamations about sovereignty over your computing devices aside, by making other people's servers a crucial component of your computing you are ceding to them some leverage and therefore control.
I guess we're talking past each other. You're of the impression that I'm going to try to circumvent them refusing to serve me content while I'm blocking ads. I'm not. I have no reason to. They have every right to refuse to let me view their content for any reason they choose, and I have every right to not run arbitrary scripts they serve me on my computer.
There is no war, because I'm not going to fight. I'm going to viciously restrict what runs on my system to protect my own security and privacy. If that makes some services or sites become unavailable to me, so be it.
There is no war, because I'm not going to fight. I'm going to viciously restrict what runs on my system to protect my own security and privacy. If that makes some services or sites become unavailable to me, so be it.
Which will be funny when they start serving malware directly from their servers.
Dear Publishers, i do not have a solution for the general problem.
But, the one thing i can tell you: there is no way i will manage premium subscriptions/accounts for 20 different sites. Not only does this get costly very fast... but even if it was only $1/month each (it's not!) - handling 20 incompatible logins on 5 different devices, most likely payed via different payment methods... that is just absurd.
This is not the way to go.
But, the one thing i can tell you: there is no way i will manage premium subscriptions/accounts for 20 different sites. Not only does this get costly very fast... but even if it was only $1/month each (it's not!) - handling 20 incompatible logins on 5 different devices, most likely payed via different payment methods... that is just absurd.
This is not the way to go.
Oh wired, do you really think we care that much about reading your articles? Forbes did the same thing, and I just stopped reading forbes articles when they blocked me.
It's a tough spot to be in for all these companies - they need to make money and stay in business, but it's rare that any of them are important enough to the average user to turn off blocking. There are simply too many sites out there to choose from.
It's a tough spot to be in for all these companies - they need to make money and stay in business, but it's rare that any of them are important enough to the average user to turn off blocking. There are simply too many sites out there to choose from.
I congratulate Forbes in successfully blocking my attempts to read their articles but I really don't care enough to turn off adblocking on their site. Usually there are other tabs with articles waiting for me to read and Forbes just saved me some reading time. That being said I'd probably turn off adblocking for Wired, I did with The Atlantic a while back but they started to autoplay their videos and I just blocked them again. How can that practice be in so widespread use in this day and age? Let's hope Wired isn't doing that.
What Forbes did after it had readers turn off their ad blockers is still fresh in my mind: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20160111/05574633295/forbe...
The comments here are full of lame hypocritical excuses. First it was "I don't wanna ads but I would pay for quality content". Now when outlets give you the option to pay "It is too complicated to pay every single publisher". When publisher will join to enable a single payment solution system the excuse of the day will be "Oh, this is too expensive..."
I pay for netflix and spotify. I would happily pay more for netflix if it had a bigger selection. I see no reason not to pay for textflix, but I only subscribe to one newspaper (the economist) and I have trouble enough reading it.
Wired, and it's multi-billionare owners can stuff it.
Wired has been on a long stead decline ever since it was first sold in the late 90s. Now they've gotten to the point where they do so little good journalism that just blacklisting them (to save myself the bother of running into their adblock block) will be as painless as cancelling my subscription was after their part in exposing Manning.
Wired has been on a long stead decline ever since it was first sold in the late 90s. Now they've gotten to the point where they do so little good journalism that just blacklisting them (to save myself the bother of running into their adblock block) will be as painless as cancelling my subscription was after their part in exposing Manning.
I was about to whitelist the site (which I only visit occasionally), and as I approached the little uBlock Origin icon, I noticed the little supertext number: 28. I click on the icon: 28 requests blocked or 42% of the requests for the page. Thanks, but no thanks.
The absolute first thing one must do before asking people to whitelist is to reduce the ad footprint.
The absolute first thing one must do before asking people to whitelist is to reduce the ad footprint.
"Trust us, and everyone connected to us, and everyone connected to them.""
Wired is asking its readership to compromise, without being willing to make any compromises themselves. They're asking us to trust them on a one-to-one basis, but that's now how trust works in a network. We have to trust Wired, and trust every single one of the companies or servers they include content and scripting from, and trust every single one of the companies or servers that these companies or servers include content from. We're looking at trusting at least a hundred actors here, quite likely more.
"Trust us, and only us."
A much better compromise would be to ask us to turn off ad blocking on their site, while in turn guaranteeing that every single script and asset served on their domain will also be served from their own servers, after having undergone at least some type of inspection. Then we at least have a reasonable basis for trust.
Wired is asking its readership to compromise, without being willing to make any compromises themselves. They're asking us to trust them on a one-to-one basis, but that's now how trust works in a network. We have to trust Wired, and trust every single one of the companies or servers they include content and scripting from, and trust every single one of the companies or servers that these companies or servers include content from. We're looking at trusting at least a hundred actors here, quite likely more.
"Trust us, and only us."
A much better compromise would be to ask us to turn off ad blocking on their site, while in turn guaranteeing that every single script and asset served on their domain will also be served from their own servers, after having undergone at least some type of inspection. Then we at least have a reasonable basis for trust.
Are you sure Wired is not compromising? Maybe they want to charge $5 but only charging $1. Will you pay a much higher price for all the things you suggest Wired should do?
Charging one dollar instead of five isn't compromising, that's haggling. I don't think anyone could begrudge them charging money, it's just that they don't give their technically savvy audience a real choice. It's either pay up, or go read something else.
There is a third option, "accept to view ads with the associated ecosystem which includes tracking". How many more options do you want? At that point Wired is happy to lose you as a customer. You have anyway dodged the question on whether you will pay $5. At the end of the day someone has to foot the bill. Allow them to define their user base and serve them. It is a challenging time for publishers.
Part of the challenge for publishers lies in deciding what they really are. Following a quantity over quality model might work well for many. On the other hand, Wired (as distinct from Condé Nast) have traditionally had a different kind of relationship with their readers. There's an emotional bond between many in the tech community and the Wired brand, which calls for a higher level of trust, but at the same time delivers a much more loyal type of readership.
I would probably not pay for access to Wired without advertising, regardless the price. I am more than willing to pay for services, or access to information that I can rationalise as an investment, but (apparently like many others) not for entertainment. On the other hand, I'm more than willing to disable ad blockers on wired.com, as long as I know everything include is served from their own network, and that they take my security as seriously as I do. Some friends can be trusted with unsupervised access to your home, but those are special friends. Wired have to convince us they're a special friend.
I would probably not pay for access to Wired without advertising, regardless the price. I am more than willing to pay for services, or access to information that I can rationalise as an investment, but (apparently like many others) not for entertainment. On the other hand, I'm more than willing to disable ad blockers on wired.com, as long as I know everything include is served from their own network, and that they take my security as seriously as I do. Some friends can be trusted with unsupervised access to your home, but those are special friends. Wired have to convince us they're a special friend.
In France we had something called the Minitel, it was basically internet but the wrong way and centralized, you had to pay more or less depending on which website you would visit (you'd dial 36 14 for free content , 36 15 for paid one ... ), it failed because it was obviously the wrong model but it was quite lucrative for "content providers". The phone company directly handled payement so there was no friction or paywall.
Here is how a terminal looked like :
https://www.element14.com/community/servlet/JiveServlet/show...
I'm not suggesting to go back to that of course, it was dreadful, but it feels like current content providers always try to reinvent the Minitel somehow.
Here is how a terminal looked like :
https://www.element14.com/community/servlet/JiveServlet/show...
I'm not suggesting to go back to that of course, it was dreadful, but it feels like current content providers always try to reinvent the Minitel somehow.
> basically internet but the wrong way and centralized
Actually, Teletel/Minitel wasn't completely centralised. A lot of services ran from their own servers on an X.25 network....
The UK's inferior Prestel service was completely centralised (well, there was more than one server, but the servers were identical).
However....
> The phone company directly handled payment so there was no friction or paywall.
That idea certainly worked well at the time. Today, you might want to subscribe to a "content server" accessed via a VPN.
Actually, Teletel/Minitel wasn't completely centralised. A lot of services ran from their own servers on an X.25 network....
The UK's inferior Prestel service was completely centralised (well, there was more than one server, but the servers were identical).
However....
> The phone company directly handled payment so there was no friction or paywall.
That idea certainly worked well at the time. Today, you might want to subscribe to a "content server" accessed via a VPN.
I wonder why content website don't use Canvas rendering in order to block all ad-blockers. You either see the canvas, with ads in it or don't see anything at all. There need to be a compatible ad-network as well. Accessibility is going to be an issue but if you can solve all of that there is a startup idea right there!
It's interesting that you hit on this solution which most likely has been debated in many a boardroom of companies that see these ad blocker figures ever on the rise.
The problem is that this 'solution' is not really a solution. It degrades the web to a fraction of its original use case and it would indicate a drastic departure from the open standards that got us here in the first place.
In a war - if you want to end it - the idea is to de-escalate. A reasonable first step from a property such as wired would be to demand from their ad-tech providers that they get rid of any tracking code and other trickery in their ad tags and that the ads served would be simple imagery rather than flash and/or javascript ads that leak an enormous pile of sensitive data about you to the 'supply side platforms'.
But since that would go hand-in-hand with a reduction in effectiveness they would then have to de-rate their ad prices or they would have to live with less income. It appears that wired would rather self destruct or at a minimum force users to convert directly at rate card prices (a win for them if they do in signfificant numbers) rather than go down this route. Time will tell if it is the winning move.
The problem is that this 'solution' is not really a solution. It degrades the web to a fraction of its original use case and it would indicate a drastic departure from the open standards that got us here in the first place.
In a war - if you want to end it - the idea is to de-escalate. A reasonable first step from a property such as wired would be to demand from their ad-tech providers that they get rid of any tracking code and other trickery in their ad tags and that the ads served would be simple imagery rather than flash and/or javascript ads that leak an enormous pile of sensitive data about you to the 'supply side platforms'.
But since that would go hand-in-hand with a reduction in effectiveness they would then have to de-rate their ad prices or they would have to live with less income. It appears that wired would rather self destruct or at a minimum force users to convert directly at rate card prices (a win for them if they do in signfificant numbers) rather than go down this route. Time will tell if it is the winning move.
As a user, that would certainly turn me off. The entire page being in canvas fundamentally breaks native functionality. Text selection, copy/paste, navigation keys. Most of these could be simulated but it would never feel truly native.
Heck, I get annoyed when on Snopes simply because I can't select any text (which I use to keep my place in the article).
Heck, I get annoyed when on Snopes simply because I can't select any text (which I use to keep my place in the article).
As I've said in the past here on HN, the key feature for this will be webassembly. When it becomes possible to easily compile a "custom" version of freetype and do all the rendering into a canvas element, and send the entire "webapp" (really: document with ads) down in a binary blob, everybody that currently depends on advertising will switch to it.
Computer vision has made great strides lately; human-level face and object recognition can run on a laptop's GPU in real time. Segmenting a rendered webpage, classifying regions as ad- or non-ad, and overwriting (in a way invisible to your canvas renderer the former, by comparison, is a walk in the park.
The client will always win. Browsers are user agents, not server agents.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1C-2dKe9NjI
The client will always win. Browsers are user agents, not server agents.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1C-2dKe9NjI
How would that be different from all-Flash websites of the past? It would be quite ironic to kill off Flash and return to the same with HTML5.
There is more value in tracking, web bugs, etc. then actually showing you the ad.
Prediction: in a few days/weeks, Wired will back pedal on this decision under the pretense that they are listening to the feedback of angry users, while the reality will be that they have been hemorrhaging readership because of the decision and reverting it is the only way to try to salvage the mess they created.
Why is losing readers who make you no money a bad thing?
It lowers their hosting costs therefore it actually makes them money. People who don't use adblock, whitelist, pay the fee for ad free all make wired money and will continue to read it.
It lowers their hosting costs therefore it actually makes them money. People who don't use adblock, whitelist, pay the fee for ad free all make wired money and will continue to read it.
Because ad tracking is all about reach. I use ad-blocking, but maybe 80% of my Facebook friends or Twitter followers don't. When I share an article, there are potentially 80% of my acquaintances who would see ads. If I never share it because I couldn't read it, there is zero potential.
Because there's more to success than simply the amount of people who click on your ads. They say 20% of their readers block ads, I would say that it's fair to assume that of those 20% maybe 5% would be willing to pay over $50 a year for reading their content or whitelist them, probably a smaller percentage of users will simply update their adblocking mechanism to keep browsing unbothered. Everyone else of those will simply stop visiting them. That's a possible 15% traffic drop.
It may not be traffic that gave them money directly like you pointed out but it's traffic from a fairly active crowd in social media, it's the people who link articles to them on places like our own HN, Twitter, /. or any number of other places. This effect leads to a drop in number of visitors who see ads which is a revenue drop.
I do like the subscription model (I'd like it better if it was a Freemium subscription model but alas it isn't), but I agree with the OP in believing that they'll backpedal this change before the end of the year.
It may not be traffic that gave them money directly like you pointed out but it's traffic from a fairly active crowd in social media, it's the people who link articles to them on places like our own HN, Twitter, /. or any number of other places. This effect leads to a drop in number of visitors who see ads which is a revenue drop.
I do like the subscription model (I'd like it better if it was a Freemium subscription model but alas it isn't), but I agree with the OP in believing that they'll backpedal this change before the end of the year.
They're very shortsighted. I only ever get to wired.com through things like links from HN so I'm not going to pay them money or disable my adblocker for the reasons they even list in their own article.
This means since I can't view their articles, I definitely won't be upvoting them on places like HN since I can't read them, and I'm sure others are in the same boat.
They could have done this in so many other ways, but they chose the way that was openly hostile to their viewers. Good luck declaring war on your own readerbase, wired.
This means since I can't view their articles, I definitely won't be upvoting them on places like HN since I can't read them, and I'm sure others are in the same boat.
They could have done this in so many other ways, but they chose the way that was openly hostile to their viewers. Good luck declaring war on your own readerbase, wired.
Interesting, what I would like though is "$1 a week on the weeks you read wired" so lets say I start with a $52 budget, read some stories this week, my balance drops by $1, if I read nothing for a month, nothing happens, then I go back and read some stories it goes down $1 for that week. The when it gets below $10 it sends me an email suggesting I top up, and if it gets below $5 then every time I read a story it reminds me I only have 'n' weeks left.
THAT is a system I would sign up for in a heart beat.
THAT is a system I would sign up for in a heart beat.
It should be per-read, not per-week, but then it can't cost $1 a piece, more like few cents => we are back to micropayments, which proves to be a very hard nut to crack.
I don't use an ad blocker, but I'm thinking of installing one just for wired, if only to see how they implement this. And because I don't support hiding content from people who don't want to pay with their eyeballs and privacy, or maybe can't pay with money.
You don't support people not giving their work away for free? I could understand the privacy argument but "some people can't afford that businesses product so fuck that business" seems ridiculous.
TheLogothete(1)
> if only to see how they implement this.
I use uBlock Origin. I went onto Wired to see how it worked. I must have viewed about 2 dozen articles, with no side effects. Either they haven't activated this yet, or it doesn't work.
I use uBlock Origin. I went onto Wired to see how it worked. I must have viewed about 2 dozen articles, with no side effects. Either they haven't activated this yet, or it doesn't work.
> here at WIRED, where we do all we can to write vital stories
I genuinely read "viral stories" the first time I read that sentence, and thought to myself: that's awfully honest of them.
Speaking more seriously, I'll repeat what I've said before: I have only started blocking ads in the past 6 months or so, because while in the past I would simply not visit websites with obnoxious advertisements, there is now nowhere to go.
And I understand that you need money to pay your staff, and I understand that the public is not paying you, so someone has to, so that naturally falls to advertisers, as it has done for a hundred years. But clearly the public isn't going to let you do that, at least not traditionally.
So I don't know where this is going to end up, but no where good I imagine. More paid promotions, more "native" advertising, more catering to people who haven't worked out how to use ad block, more viral "you'll never guess who farted in the senate" style non-content-- the top two articles right now on Wired are literally reporting about advertisements. There is advertising sponsoring them writing about advertisements. My head is spinning.
I genuinely read "viral stories" the first time I read that sentence, and thought to myself: that's awfully honest of them.
Speaking more seriously, I'll repeat what I've said before: I have only started blocking ads in the past 6 months or so, because while in the past I would simply not visit websites with obnoxious advertisements, there is now nowhere to go.
And I understand that you need money to pay your staff, and I understand that the public is not paying you, so someone has to, so that naturally falls to advertisers, as it has done for a hundred years. But clearly the public isn't going to let you do that, at least not traditionally.
So I don't know where this is going to end up, but no where good I imagine. More paid promotions, more "native" advertising, more catering to people who haven't worked out how to use ad block, more viral "you'll never guess who farted in the senate" style non-content-- the top two articles right now on Wired are literally reporting about advertisements. There is advertising sponsoring them writing about advertisements. My head is spinning.
Now that sites are being more aggressive when detecting ad blockers, but they still want search engines to index the site and so they happily serve content to the crawlers... Would it be possible to write a browser plugin that can let your session masquerade as a robot? Even pay walled sites let Google index their content, that's how they lure unsuspecting chumps to the site. So why couldn't we have a plugin to imitate a robot, getting the content and by having to suffer through several megabytes of ad network code?
Sure, there are browser plugins to override the HTTP user agent header and in my experience impersonating Google Bot works quite well. On the other hand, this tactic runs afoul with sites detecting your UA for browser specific hacks (especially with HTML5 video) or parts of a sites where bots are blocked by policy.
Also the IP ranges of search bots are more or less well known, so it would be trivial for publishers to block this kind of hack, if they wanted.
Also the IP ranges of search bots are more or less well known, so it would be trivial for publishers to block this kind of hack, if they wanted.
By googles cloaking rules they are not allowed to serve different content, so presumably just turning of javascript would work just as well.
Respect to Wired for attempting to find a solution to their issues but I fear like many others commenting on this thread that this isn't the solution.
I'd love to see their numbers in a few months - but I doubt that they would make them public.
Obviously making money via adverts on news websites is a shrinking business. I wonder if any companies are taking advantage of this to create a new type of revenue generation machine for publishers? I know micro-payments keep getting kicked around but they don't seem like the solution here. Any thoughts?
I'd love to see their numbers in a few months - but I doubt that they would make them public.
Obviously making money via adverts on news websites is a shrinking business. I wonder if any companies are taking advantage of this to create a new type of revenue generation machine for publishers? I know micro-payments keep getting kicked around but they don't seem like the solution here. Any thoughts?
Good. I've been waiting for sites to stop whining, grow a pair and refuse me and my fellow blockers. I can get along without them, the quality of my life won't suffer a single decimal place, and they'll gain ... well, I don't know what they'll gain other than "winning," but whatever.
But I guess one thing to consider is, even if I block, people who I send links to may or may not block. There's some math that probably needs to be worked through.
But I guess one thing to consider is, even if I block, people who I send links to may or may not block. There's some math that probably needs to be worked through.
Wouldn't it be ironic if blockers were the most valuable viewers, because of the number of people who follow our recommendations for articles and sites?
[deleted]
Let me take another view on this. Adblocking is on the rise according to, basically, everywhere. I've installed it recently in my family computers since it'll protect them from many nasty stuff besides the ads. However, they are surely not able to add any site to the whitelist (they just know they don't get advertising).
Furthermore, with population aging, I think that for the next 10-30 this will make the adoption even stronger. So let's say that it keeps going on until most of the people use some adblock. What is the situation then? Let's explore one option:
No one sees advertising/tracking on the web. Newspapers, magazines and others have either adapted or died. So, for Wire's example, allowing for an ad-sponsored site makes no sense since most of the people use adblocking so there's not much public left. Now I don't know anything about paid online magazine, but I've read that their numbers are not so great.
So who's left?
- Websites that do it for free to scratch an itch such as codinghorror and Joel on Software.
- Corporate blogs that act like news press to improve the brand. This could include Tesla's blog, SpaceX's news, etc.
- Blogs that make it a content strategy so you buy their product such as GrooveHQ.
- Personal or professional review sites with referral links.
This is arguably a stronger change than when printed papers went online or when they went mobile, since their business model remained unchanged. It's a change of business model, so they will have to adapt somehow.
Furthermore, with population aging, I think that for the next 10-30 this will make the adoption even stronger. So let's say that it keeps going on until most of the people use some adblock. What is the situation then? Let's explore one option:
No one sees advertising/tracking on the web. Newspapers, magazines and others have either adapted or died. So, for Wire's example, allowing for an ad-sponsored site makes no sense since most of the people use adblocking so there's not much public left. Now I don't know anything about paid online magazine, but I've read that their numbers are not so great.
So who's left?
- Websites that do it for free to scratch an itch such as codinghorror and Joel on Software.
- Corporate blogs that act like news press to improve the brand. This could include Tesla's blog, SpaceX's news, etc.
- Blogs that make it a content strategy so you buy their product such as GrooveHQ.
- Personal or professional review sites with referral links.
This is arguably a stronger change than when printed papers went online or when they went mobile, since their business model remained unchanged. It's a change of business model, so they will have to adapt somehow.
"essentially all of the ad supported sites I visit are diversions" - https://utcc.utoronto.ca/~cks/space/blog/web/AdSupportedWebD...
I would miss a lot of the sites that would end up disappearing, but in the end, I arguably would be better without them anyway. I hope they get to stay, and we find a solution, but if they don't.... shrug
I would miss a lot of the sites that would end up disappearing, but in the end, I arguably would be better without them anyway. I hope they get to stay, and we find a solution, but if they don't.... shrug
You can still have sponsored posts strategy like on daringfireball.net
It's funny to see amongst all the stock market rout how companies that are (now) subservient to the markets have to react to a down market caused by other bullshit than journalism. The lesson here is Wired, stay true, don't fucking sell to Conde Nast and remain TRULY independent like real journalists should so you don't have to fucking suck dick for money when the big old bullshit tech bubble starts to burst.
Who in publishing is surviving as an true independent with even 1/5th of this staff? http://www.wired.com/wired-staff
> So, in the coming weeks, we will restrict access to articles on WIRED.com if you are using an ad blocker.
Suit yourself. Goodbye, Wired, and welcome to reality.
Suit yourself. Goodbye, Wired, and welcome to reality.
I unblocked Wired a few months ago, eventually turned it back on because their popup video ads were so annoying, especially when travelling (slow connections) or on small touch devices.
Also, I just left that article to leave a comment here, since there is no comment section on that article, something else that drives me away from Wired.
Also, I just left that article to leave a comment here, since there is no comment section on that article, something else that drives me away from Wired.
Cue all the people who say "Fine, then I won't ever go to Wired's site again."
That's kind of the point, you know.
That's kind of the point, you know.
As long as the value proposition is there, it will work out for them. I can tell you, for me it is definitely not. In fact, I just feel bad about the opportunity cost (time) of reading one of their articles let alone actually paying to see one.
If I worked at WIRED I'd be very concerned with increasing the quality of content.
If I worked at WIRED I'd be very concerned with increasing the quality of content.
While there may be some benefit to avoiding free riders, that definitely is not the goal. The goal is to hopefully prevent some new installs of ad blockers with a hope that some of those existing free riders disable their ad-blockers on Wired or pay a subscription.
If that was the goal then they went about it in a piss-poor way. The problem is not the ads, the problem is the tracking.
Let them be the case study and prove all of the "welp, won't go there again" crowd wrong. I have my doubts that that blocking blockers is a wise long term strategy.
No. They hope to force people to turn off their ad blockers.
I wish some company, that could make a difference, pushed for a paper-like ad service -- no tracking, no sounds&video, no JS, just an old school text and picture ad. Such service I would gladly whitelist, but at the current state of advertisement industry whitelisting any site is a no-no.
If only publishers had put that much thought and effort in sneaking in increasingly bloated advertising in with http requests for content until the ratio ads/content was a 100/1, or in massively violating their readers privacy and becoming complicit in a world wide greed driven surveillance system.
Any ethical policy with regards to ad blocking should start with the word "sorry", followed by a lengthy apology for two decades of utterly unethical business strategies.
Instead, we just get another aggressively anti-consumer move in the privacy arms race.
No tracking if you pay up amounts to blackmail. Publishers like these won't get a penny from me until they apologize and give up tracking altogether. (Of course the fact that Wired hasn't been relevant since the late 90s makes this particular decision a lot easier...)
Any ethical policy with regards to ad blocking should start with the word "sorry", followed by a lengthy apology for two decades of utterly unethical business strategies.
Instead, we just get another aggressively anti-consumer move in the privacy arms race.
No tracking if you pay up amounts to blackmail. Publishers like these won't get a penny from me until they apologize and give up tracking altogether. (Of course the fact that Wired hasn't been relevant since the late 90s makes this particular decision a lot easier...)
Time for adblockers to become smarter. IMHO, an adblocker should keep a shadow DOM, so that the originating site cannot see which DOM elements have been removed/altered. Also, an adblocker could use a "refresh cookie" strategy, to effectively disable tracking.
Methods of both parties will evolve, but ultimately as long as the user has control over his computer(no hardware DRM), he can display whatever he wants.
Here's a nice project idea. Visit a page using multiple cookies, then run OCR on it to extract the texts from each visit. Then compare the texts, extracting only the parts which are equal across visits. This should get rid of targeted ads and ads which vary on each visit. For the remaining ads, use a spam filter, or use a crowd-sourced database of ads.
Soon we will need to pay for every site we visit.
That's aweful.
I mean I have nothing against ads, when they are like the Google Ads, and I have nothing against not running a adblocker, when your site doesn't do 100-200 requests for a simple site with text.
Mobile usage keeps rising and apps that have a lot of engagement like Facebook garner incredible amounts of revenue from companies wanting to advertise on that platform.
The subsequent effect is media ranging from Wired to my local newspapers continue to lose ad dollars that are funneled to Google/FB. Just as an example, Buzzfeed smartly made an incredible Facebook video brand in order to help increase their reach, value to advertisers (via sponsored content) which helps fund real journalism (akin to the role of comics/crosswords for newspapers decades ago). Month after month, excellent journalists who used to work for national newspapers leave or are let go because of decreasing revenue, whereby they end up moving to Buzzfeed News.
It really irks me that Facebook and Google has so much clout over the advertising industry.
The subsequent effect is media ranging from Wired to my local newspapers continue to lose ad dollars that are funneled to Google/FB. Just as an example, Buzzfeed smartly made an incredible Facebook video brand in order to help increase their reach, value to advertisers (via sponsored content) which helps fund real journalism (akin to the role of comics/crosswords for newspapers decades ago). Month after month, excellent journalists who used to work for national newspapers leave or are let go because of decreasing revenue, whereby they end up moving to Buzzfeed News.
It really irks me that Facebook and Google has so much clout over the advertising industry.
> Soon we will need to pay for every site we visit. That's aweful.
I don't think that is something bad. For example clickbait would slowly disappear - without ads there is no need to trick users into more page views.
I don't think that is something bad. For example clickbait would slowly disappear - without ads there is no need to trick users into more page views.
>On an average day, more than 20 percent of the traffic to WIRED.com comes from a reader who is blocking our ads
Only 20% is pretty low for a tech-savvy audience. I'm surprised as I assumed ad blockers were more wide spread amongst us "computer people".
Only 20% is pretty low for a tech-savvy audience. I'm surprised as I assumed ad blockers were more wide spread amongst us "computer people".
I was also surprised by the 20%, as I thought I had read that it was approaching 40% across the web (thanks to YouTube, really). I wonder if this means a significant share of Wired readers had already whitelisted the site.
Other comments have mentioned or hinted at this, but I think the only way to reduce the friction of online subscriptions is to "pool" the content a'la spotify or apple music. I would pay some amount per month for an all I can read premium content model just like I pay for music streaming. Having multiple magazines/providers to choose from would be a big draw for me as I am not always interested in the content of one provider. I like Wired and have read their articles on occasion. I even have a subscription to the print version that I got for airline points I couldnt use elsewhere. I cant see any other way for me to make the jump.
Mh, I'd rather much prefer a system like Flattr (https://flattr.com/). I used to read Wired a lot, but I somehow had the feeling that there has been a significant decline in the quality of the articles (used to have a subscription), so these days I can't be bothered much.
That's why I'd love something like a "pay per like" system, which let's me support the quality content I enjoy and boost the people behind it. But I guess it wouldn't really work out as most people are cheap and lazy - you'd need to sign up for a new service etc.. :/
That's why I'd love something like a "pay per like" system, which let's me support the quality content I enjoy and boost the people behind it. But I guess it wouldn't really work out as most people are cheap and lazy - you'd need to sign up for a new service etc.. :/
For argument's sake, imagine there were 1,000 people using adblock on Wired.com. They read 10 articles per week, some of which they actually enjoy.
Suddenly, they disable their adblockers.
Now, how much weekly ad revenue does Wired earn from those 1,000 visitors? There's no way it's $1,000 worth of ad revenue.
In which case, you could be forgiven for thinking this move by Wired is not about solving the website adblock problem, but more a subscription drive.
As an occasional reader I want a better deal on the subscription. Say, 20 cents per week. Apply a quota, cap my plan, all good. But $1 per week is not happening, and whitelisting the site is not happening. That's just me.
Suddenly, they disable their adblockers.
Now, how much weekly ad revenue does Wired earn from those 1,000 visitors? There's no way it's $1,000 worth of ad revenue.
In which case, you could be forgiven for thinking this move by Wired is not about solving the website adblock problem, but more a subscription drive.
As an occasional reader I want a better deal on the subscription. Say, 20 cents per week. Apply a quota, cap my plan, all good. But $1 per week is not happening, and whitelisting the site is not happening. That's just me.
I geniunely do feel bad for magazines that are trying to figure out how to survive in a world of ad-blockers. I suspect that many hard-working journalists will lose their jobs as magazines like Wired go out of business. I personally subscribe to several newspapers, and I worry about them, too, and what's going to happen to journalism in this country (USA, sorry for my chauvinism).
BUT!
I want to KILL the free internet--that is, the internet that is paid for with slices of my attention and life. I do believe that advertisers are very good at extracting my attention and money, and I genuinely do want to destroy that internet model. What will emerge? I can only cross my fingers.
BUT!
I want to KILL the free internet--that is, the internet that is paid for with slices of my attention and life. I do believe that advertisers are very good at extracting my attention and money, and I genuinely do want to destroy that internet model. What will emerge? I can only cross my fingers.
gift economy?
Hm, I wonder what will this do to their advertising revenue. People who are ready to shell out money for subscription are probably those who were most likely follow the ads as well (as in, they are ready to part with their dough)
I subscribed to their iPad magazine publication for the last several years in an effort to support them. That weighs in at USD$25/year off memory (NB: non-US subscribers get screwed for print delivery), which I felt was fair given I minimially read the magazine itself and just browse their site sometimes, e.g. when an article is linked from here or I see one on Twitter.
I would've hoped there would be some acknowledgement for their magazine subscribers, both digital and print. Certainly for print, which costs significantly more, but even for magazine subscribers who've been around for a number of years.
I would've hoped there would be some acknowledgement for their magazine subscribers, both digital and print. Certainly for print, which costs significantly more, but even for magazine subscribers who've been around for a number of years.
> No tracking
Isn't having an account a form of tracking?
Isn't having an account a form of tracking?
Compared to what ad networks do I'd say no.
And this is where wired missed the boat here, the article should not have been titled 'how wired will deal with ad blocking' but it should have been 'how wired will deal with tracking'.
And this is where wired missed the boat here, the article should not have been titled 'how wired will deal with ad blocking' but it should have been 'how wired will deal with tracking'.
I love the current ad-based world that lets me get free access to premium content in exchange for ad views, I just don't want to be profiled.
I'd be SUPER happy to see ads that support a site that didn't track me.
I'd be SUPER happy to see ads that support a site that didn't track me.
How about an ad company that doesn't track you? An ad company that was based on (as in, its mission statement) anonymous data or client-side-session-level tracking?
The "problem" would be that current ads are SO tailored that they have a baseline click-through rate that'd be higher than one based solely on the content of the website.
To solve that problem, how about client-side ad picker? (e.g. I download a score of ads from "nottrackingyouAdCompany.com" and a client-side JS solution chooses what to show, meaning my privacy is only "broken" on my own PC.)
The "problem" would be that current ads are SO tailored that they have a baseline click-through rate that'd be higher than one based solely on the content of the website.
To solve that problem, how about client-side ad picker? (e.g. I download a score of ads from "nottrackingyouAdCompany.com" and a client-side JS solution chooses what to show, meaning my privacy is only "broken" on my own PC.)
I think the crux of the question though is: how many more ads at the same site would you be willing to see that don't track you?
Given that a site's costs are fixed, but targeted ad's are worth more than untargeted.
Given that a site's costs are fixed, but targeted ad's are worth more than untargeted.
Well the current number is zero..... So any number higher than that is a winner for both of us, right?
Yes. Publishers are currently maximizing ad quality and content quantity instead of content quality.
-20% of people who could share their content in social networks. Ok, who cares.
Everybody was happy to outsource ads.
Then the ads got sufficiently obnoxious that everybody started wiping them out.
The solution is to insource your ads again and take responsibility. Then people would quit wiping them out.
But, that will cut into somebody rich dude's profits, and they'll have to ... ewwwww ... employ somebody.
Or, they can lose completely and go out of business. Their call.
I don't link or read Forbes articles anymore. Cool by me.
Next up, the aggregators will start ripping the content that isn't strongly paywalled and republishing it. Probably without attribution. Good luck.
Then the ads got sufficiently obnoxious that everybody started wiping them out.
The solution is to insource your ads again and take responsibility. Then people would quit wiping them out.
But, that will cut into somebody rich dude's profits, and they'll have to ... ewwwww ... employ somebody.
Or, they can lose completely and go out of business. Their call.
I don't link or read Forbes articles anymore. Cool by me.
Next up, the aggregators will start ripping the content that isn't strongly paywalled and republishing it. Probably without attribution. Good luck.
Here is my scholarly response to this article.
Title: How zevrox is going to handle Wired going to handle Ad Blocking
Body: Zevrox will never visit Wired.com and their whiny princess ass again.
Title: How zevrox is going to handle Wired going to handle Ad Blocking
Body: Zevrox will never visit Wired.com and their whiny princess ass again.
On Facebook, my feed is full of thousands of amateur writers trying to interest me with cats, jokes, rants, and family pictures. They also do news, politics, religion, and anything else they think will get attention (including like-begging)
On Wired, I got what? 100 folks all doing the same thing only with more taste and style?
I get the fact that Wired, on average, is better consumable content than Facebook, but hell, Facebook is free. The rest of the net is free.
I do not have an answer for the Wired guys, but I gotta admit it's sad/funny that Facebook and Google are such close partners with so many content providers. They're the guys driving the bus that's taking you over the cliff.
For the record, I own the device or app that consumes my content over the net. If I choose to own a device or app that only displays text, or only displays text from certain domains? That's my business, not yours. You can certainly turn the spigot off or on, and perhaps you'll get me to pay for you turning it on, but that's the limit of our interaction on this matter. What kind of device I use or whether or not I see certain things you want me to see is none of your freaking business.
In addition, as far as I'm concerned, any information I provide back to the server about what kind of browser I'm using is highly provisional and subject to change without notice. It is a courtesy that I provide anything.
It continues to amaze me that people who are in the business of providing entertainment somehow feel that it's a good thing to go to war with the people they are entertaining. For the life of me I just don't get how that makes any sense.
One day somebody is going to write a "meta browser", a browser that opens up other browsers in invisible windows and surfs the web, then sucks out filtered content for the user to consume. (There would be a provision for faking out credentials, spoofing the signature, resetting the cookies, signing up under assumed/real names, and so forth) Once that day comes, both the browser vendors an the content providers are going to be unhappy. But that's where we're headed if this radar vs. radar detector battle continues forward. Content consumers will win. They always do. (I imagine we're going to see a big push for legislative relief here. Prepare yourselves.)
On Wired, I got what? 100 folks all doing the same thing only with more taste and style?
I get the fact that Wired, on average, is better consumable content than Facebook, but hell, Facebook is free. The rest of the net is free.
I do not have an answer for the Wired guys, but I gotta admit it's sad/funny that Facebook and Google are such close partners with so many content providers. They're the guys driving the bus that's taking you over the cliff.
For the record, I own the device or app that consumes my content over the net. If I choose to own a device or app that only displays text, or only displays text from certain domains? That's my business, not yours. You can certainly turn the spigot off or on, and perhaps you'll get me to pay for you turning it on, but that's the limit of our interaction on this matter. What kind of device I use or whether or not I see certain things you want me to see is none of your freaking business.
In addition, as far as I'm concerned, any information I provide back to the server about what kind of browser I'm using is highly provisional and subject to change without notice. It is a courtesy that I provide anything.
It continues to amaze me that people who are in the business of providing entertainment somehow feel that it's a good thing to go to war with the people they are entertaining. For the life of me I just don't get how that makes any sense.
One day somebody is going to write a "meta browser", a browser that opens up other browsers in invisible windows and surfs the web, then sucks out filtered content for the user to consume. (There would be a provision for faking out credentials, spoofing the signature, resetting the cookies, signing up under assumed/real names, and so forth) Once that day comes, both the browser vendors an the content providers are going to be unhappy. But that's where we're headed if this radar vs. radar detector battle continues forward. Content consumers will win. They always do. (I imagine we're going to see a big push for legislative relief here. Prepare yourselves.)
Again: just serve ads and I'm happy even if it's half the content on the page. Just don't use tracking ads from ad networks. I don't mind downloading huge ads and I don't mind the layout including the ads (as long as they are tasteful, as in the print version of Wired).
Wired is a print mag. They have always struck deals with advertisers to show dumb ads without impression counts, in their magazine. Just put those ads on the site!
Wired is a print mag. They have always struck deals with advertisers to show dumb ads without impression counts, in their magazine. Just put those ads on the site!
helpful hint: this is a listed, but disabled by default, ruleset in ublock's 3rd party filters: https://i.imgur.com/XiXspoi.png
Works on forbes.com (not that I care, but I used it to test). Thanks!
> You can subscribe to a brand-new Ad-Free version of WIRED.com. For $1 a week, you will get complete access to our content, with no display advertising or ad tracking.
I wish more places would do this. I subscribe to several news outlets, and none of them provide this option, even for paying customers. It's ridiculous.
Unfortunately for Wired, their content just isn't good enough to warrant the $52/year price point.
I wish more places would do this. I subscribe to several news outlets, and none of them provide this option, even for paying customers. It's ridiculous.
Unfortunately for Wired, their content just isn't good enough to warrant the $52/year price point.
This is the main reason why I use an Ad blocker (and tracker blocker, etc.)
http://blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.uk/2015/10/why-its-ok-to-b...
These arguments are not even acknowledged by Wired (or any other service that relies on ads)
http://blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.uk/2015/10/why-its-ok-to-b...
These arguments are not even acknowledged by Wired (or any other service that relies on ads)
except they are by offering a subscription model with no ads
Dear Wired: just sell ads and place them on your page. I'll have no problem with them. Don't have services track me as I view them. Don't have companies correlate my viewing of them with more data about me and then sell that data to yet more companies. It's simple really.
All these publications must for a consortium of sort where I can login into one website and manage all my subscription and then never ever see any advertisements.
I don't want to pay wired and forbes and WaPo and NYT and keep track of all these payments appearing on my credit card. We need a Netflix for web publishers.
I don't want to pay wired and forbes and WaPo and NYT and keep track of all these payments appearing on my credit card. We need a Netflix for web publishers.
The best/funniest solution for problems like these is showing cats and dogs with a Nickolas Cage face, instead of ads for those who have ad-blockers. There is a site that uses this technique,(8muses .com NSFW), those images are so distracting you just have to disable ads. It's hilarious.
I'm using Adblock Plus local proxy on my unrooted Android tablet. I clicked the link and got a completely white page. I copied the link in Google Translate and I could read the page (clicked the button for the original version).
I understand that Wired has to pay its staff but it's a uphill battle.
I understand that Wired has to pay its staff but it's a uphill battle.
I add that $1 a week is probably out of touch with reality. It assumes that people goes to Wired.com to browse articles at least few times per week. I might be wrong, but people lands there coming from sites like HN or from Google searches. I'm among this group of people. That means that we read a few articles per month, maybe none at all. Paying even as little as $1 for something I might use and maybe not is out of question. Imagine if I'd have to do that for any random web site I land to. Unfortunately for them the very existence of the hyperlink and the zillion of other news outlets makes paywalled site an as sustainable business as paid web browsers.
Still, if I could pay on demand, 1 cent per article, I'll consider it. Show me an abstract first and remember that I'll remember if your content is really worth that cent. If you think it's tiny, divide the price of a paper newpaper by the number of articles it's made of and we get to that order of magnitude.
Still, if I could pay on demand, 1 cent per article, I'll consider it. Show me an abstract first and remember that I'll remember if your content is really worth that cent. If you think it's tiny, divide the price of a paper newpaper by the number of articles it's made of and we get to that order of magnitude.
so the end result will be when servers get powerful enough they will simply bake the ads into the article so at least the visual representation is there and rotation continues.
As for the content charges, a micro transaction system really needs to take root for the web. I really don't want to be driven to the poor house with a dearth of monthlies. Its bad enough with cable, tv, netflix, etc/etc, and now every damn website. Worse are magazine based companies trying to charge print subscribers for web content that used to be free.
A dollar a week might not sound like much but if I am not using the site each week its too much. Set me up an article bank so that my one dollar gets me a set number of articles and it tracks which I read so I can reread content I paid for
As for the content charges, a micro transaction system really needs to take root for the web. I really don't want to be driven to the poor house with a dearth of monthlies. Its bad enough with cable, tv, netflix, etc/etc, and now every damn website. Worse are magazine based companies trying to charge print subscribers for web content that used to be free.
A dollar a week might not sound like much but if I am not using the site each week its too much. Set me up an article bank so that my one dollar gets me a set number of articles and it tracks which I read so I can reread content I paid for
"You can simply add WIRED.com to your ad blocker’s whitelist, so you view ads."
That's cute. I just rolled out network-level adblocking at home to improve the security of legacy clients (e.g. old un-updateable Android phones). There is no concept of a whitelist in this approach.
That's cute. I just rolled out network-level adblocking at home to improve the security of legacy clients (e.g. old un-updateable Android phones). There is no concept of a whitelist in this approach.
Welp. Fuck off, Wired. See ya! And that's exactly what people say when this happens.
I don't get it. Why is it no one has invented a safe JVM for ad execution so the site believes they are executing even though nothing is actually getting through? Is the coding required just too insane to handle?
> we do all we can to write vital stories for an audience that’s passionate about the ongoing adventure of our rapidly changing world
Can't even finish the first paragraph before the bullshit starts flowing.
Can't even finish the first paragraph before the bullshit starts flowing.
They missed a big opportunity by not just linking the $1 ad-free sign up page.
Nope. If I can't load your article WITHOUT ADVERTS then I simply will move along. I don't care enough about any one news source to subject myself to hostile brain hacking attempts.
If there's an arms race between ad-blockers and ad-blocker-detectors, the latter will win. All of the money and incentives are set up for them to do a better job.
You can't really 'win' with an ad-blocker-detector, you can only win by committing virtual suicide on your website. Eyeballs have value other than just ads, for instance someone might have shared an article in an interesting way or to a well matching demographic which in turn led to a viral effect. Very hard to know which part of your audience is the one instrumental to keeping the flow of traffic up, and 20% is in the danger zone. Keep in mind that Wired's audience is fairly tech savvy and that is precisely the segment that may have caused Wired to be as well respected as they are in the first place. You don't risk alienating that 20% unless you're desperate.
Presumably they get desperate, then.
Look, it's easy to wave your hands and talk about viral articles, but fundamentally they will do what they need to in order to stay alive, or be replaced by a company that will. You can have micropayments (failed experiment), subscriptions, or ads. Empirically it seems like ads or other non-monetary consideration (influence, sponsored content, etc) has outcompeted subscription-based models for most content. Given that the "war" is entirely technical & visible to the end user only by the presence or absence of ads, the question is just whether you'll read a publication that has ads, or not. Empirically, the general population will.
(This says nothing about how invasive the ads are).
Look, it's easy to wave your hands and talk about viral articles, but fundamentally they will do what they need to in order to stay alive, or be replaced by a company that will. You can have micropayments (failed experiment), subscriptions, or ads. Empirically it seems like ads or other non-monetary consideration (influence, sponsored content, etc) has outcompeted subscription-based models for most content. Given that the "war" is entirely technical & visible to the end user only by the presence or absence of ads, the question is just whether you'll read a publication that has ads, or not. Empirically, the general population will.
(This says nothing about how invasive the ads are).
I think this concept of the "sharing elite" is overstated. You're not that influential.
I'd need you to clarify your idea of "winning", but I'm pretty sure I'd take the opposite side of this bet.
Ad-blockers will win because people find ads very annoying.
Ad-blockers will win because people find ads very annoying.
My contention is that if you want to, you can make ads nearly indistinguishable from "content".
On the extreme side, I would say that I have won this bet already; if you pick up something like the Wall Street Journal and count the number of articles that someone involved wanted printed, you'd find that most of what you're reading is one kind of ad or another.
But there are technical solutions as well. Obfuscation beats machine parsers for at least the foreseeable future.
On the extreme side, I would say that I have won this bet already; if you pick up something like the Wall Street Journal and count the number of articles that someone involved wanted printed, you'd find that most of what you're reading is one kind of ad or another.
But there are technical solutions as well. Obfuscation beats machine parsers for at least the foreseeable future.
My single visit to read one of their articles generates way less that $1, I am not sure how much but I guess about $0.01. So, why micropayments never took off?
There's a growing trend of trying to nickle and dime the internet. That adds up fast. It's not a sustainable model in the long run.
It would be one thing if they were just talking about a static image advertisement, but we are talking about a whole lot more than that...
So, all going according to plan for Apple right? The best free experience reading Wired is now through the iOS News app.
Provided the News app actually loads.
how is adblock detection different from other forms of client side DRM? At the end of the day you have to trust the client
Adblock detection is like client side DRM it copy protects the article from being viewed unless you disable your ad blocker and see ads and get tracked.
There are scripts that foil ad block detection as well. So some people are fighting back.
It reminds me of file sharing sites like bittorrent sites that people use to get DRM free versions of products at risk of having their IP scanned by DMCA bots sending them a C&D letter.
It comes down to when you buy something you don't own it you only buy the right to use it. Now you only have the right to read articles if you get exposed to ads and tracking. If you block ads they can take away your right to read an article.
It is all about rights and how corporations control what you get access to.
Facebook, Google, and others use ads and tracking as well to earn money. Their sites are free at the cost of your privacy rights.
There are scripts that foil ad block detection as well. So some people are fighting back.
It reminds me of file sharing sites like bittorrent sites that people use to get DRM free versions of products at risk of having their IP scanned by DMCA bots sending them a C&D letter.
It comes down to when you buy something you don't own it you only buy the right to use it. Now you only have the right to read articles if you get exposed to ads and tracking. If you block ads they can take away your right to read an article.
It is all about rights and how corporations control what you get access to.
Facebook, Google, and others use ads and tracking as well to earn money. Their sites are free at the cost of your privacy rights.
I think its going to be interesting as the anti-adblocker verses anti-anti-adblocker war heats up.
Wonder if they've considered Instant Articles. Loads instantly for users and has ads as well.
It seems like we won't be able to access anything without ads or without fees in future.
the only way out is to get quality content out as much as possible. "portals" like yahoo have tons more of access than weird. they can easily dilute the ad blockers, pay the content creators a cut, and everybody ends up happy
ah nope, they still do the floating horizontal bar, eating the PRECIOUS vertical screen-estate
ah well, we'll see how it goes, nothing uBlock Origin can't handle :D
p/s: does anyone from Wired is here? to at least read / respond?
ah well, we'll see how it goes, nothing uBlock Origin can't handle :D
p/s: does anyone from Wired is here? to at least read / respond?
Here goes another one:
echo 127.0.0.1 www.wired.com >> hostsI'm a bit shocked that Conde Nast never bothered to work out a digital advertising strategy that worked. In the magazine business they can sell off their pages easily because they are essentially part of the content and their content is influential. They control the client pool and match advertisers with the brand of content, a reader of Vogue would spend as much time studying the content of some advertisers because it covered their interests in an interesting way.
A good friend is a fashion designer and she collects oodles of high end magazines, they have a heavy cover price and advertising makes up a large proportion of the pages, but it doesn't matter because the content and advertising coalesce. The advertising editor is still an important part of the business and they make certain that their work both reinforces the business and doesn't tarnish the content. It's a slick alignment.
Something became unstuck with publishing on the web very early, and for whatever the reason, magazines and periodicals typically gave up exclusively collating and editing their own advertising material. An industry of third party providers took that job, providing the initial promise of instant revenue and later the promise that adverts could be tailored to the eyeballs of the viewer. But the third parties never came up with a way to nicely separate their ads from the content that people were attracted to, to give it the necessary space that makes reading a magazine somehow less bombarding. They adopted the messy format of banners and placement ads, which wasn't far away from the newspaper grid. But newspapers were always a different beast with less refinement, the daily coverage was enough of a compulsion to readers that it covered the incongruous layout (and the trend for a very long time was not to pollute the front page with advertising as this would cheapen the status of important stories and editorials - this came much later). Every ad technology that they have come up with only aides in their own destruction - popups, overlays, flash and animated gifs only serve in distracting the audience enough to irritate.
It's probably too late to reform the industry to make advertising consistent, relevant and non distracting. The content has already suffered, reputations are diminished and reputable journalists are becoming far more autonomous in their output. There was a renewed interest in digital magazine publishing when the ipad came out, it allowed for more traditional interaction, layout and perusal, but releasing an app based publication is more involved than publishing to the web once and there's more mind share in the latter.
It's going to be interesting to watch how the web trends for commercial media. But at the same time I doubt my fashion friend is about to stop buying magazines and judging by the content they are becoming more beautiful and textural with every new publication. Still a viable niche alternative to screen burn, the adverts look fantastic, and there's zero chance of accidental malware. No salvation for a suffering industry, but they've been embedded in the web a very long time and failed pretty badly.
A good friend is a fashion designer and she collects oodles of high end magazines, they have a heavy cover price and advertising makes up a large proportion of the pages, but it doesn't matter because the content and advertising coalesce. The advertising editor is still an important part of the business and they make certain that their work both reinforces the business and doesn't tarnish the content. It's a slick alignment.
Something became unstuck with publishing on the web very early, and for whatever the reason, magazines and periodicals typically gave up exclusively collating and editing their own advertising material. An industry of third party providers took that job, providing the initial promise of instant revenue and later the promise that adverts could be tailored to the eyeballs of the viewer. But the third parties never came up with a way to nicely separate their ads from the content that people were attracted to, to give it the necessary space that makes reading a magazine somehow less bombarding. They adopted the messy format of banners and placement ads, which wasn't far away from the newspaper grid. But newspapers were always a different beast with less refinement, the daily coverage was enough of a compulsion to readers that it covered the incongruous layout (and the trend for a very long time was not to pollute the front page with advertising as this would cheapen the status of important stories and editorials - this came much later). Every ad technology that they have come up with only aides in their own destruction - popups, overlays, flash and animated gifs only serve in distracting the audience enough to irritate.
It's probably too late to reform the industry to make advertising consistent, relevant and non distracting. The content has already suffered, reputations are diminished and reputable journalists are becoming far more autonomous in their output. There was a renewed interest in digital magazine publishing when the ipad came out, it allowed for more traditional interaction, layout and perusal, but releasing an app based publication is more involved than publishing to the web once and there's more mind share in the latter.
It's going to be interesting to watch how the web trends for commercial media. But at the same time I doubt my fashion friend is about to stop buying magazines and judging by the content they are becoming more beautiful and textural with every new publication. Still a viable niche alternative to screen burn, the adverts look fantastic, and there's zero chance of accidental malware. No salvation for a suffering industry, but they've been embedded in the web a very long time and failed pretty badly.
Goodbye, Wired. Good luck with all that.
> You can subscribe to a brand-new Ad-Free version of WIRED.com. For $1 a week
Wow, a paywall. Did you come up with that idea all by yourself?
Wow, a paywall. Did you come up with that idea all by yourself?
Arrivederci.
I'm fine with some people using Ad-block because they don't like ads. But, when it's automatically installed on masses of computers, it starts to really become a problem.
This will only create a fractured Internet and make it difficult for small startups to survive.
This will only create a fractured Internet and make it difficult for small startups to survive.
After adding 19 separate exceptions in uMatrix for both whole domains and for types of requests/actions on domains, I still don't see any ads but I do see an ever-increasing list of third-party sites Wired is pulling requests from. Given a choice between throwing up my hands and saying "Fine, f*ckit, do whatever the hell you want" and whitelisting Wired's requests to all of (disqus, optimizely, amazon-adsystem, condenastdigital, demdex, typekit, adobetm, chartbeat, cloudfront, doubleclick, googleadservices, googlesyndication, googletagservices, mediavoice, mookie1, omtrdc, outbrain, parsely, scorecardresearch, yldbt and zqtk) plus whatever others would be pulled in were I actually to whitelist, I guess I'll have to do without Wired.
So far without ever actually loosening things up far enough to see ads that's AT LEAST 21 different top-level domains Wired is pulling from, not counting its own (and yes, I realize it's part of Conde Nast). Most of those top-level domains have at least 2 subdomains being pulled from, sometimes more. My basic reaction to this is that even if I trust Wired and Conde Nast, I don't know that I trust all those other sites like "mookie1," "yldbt," "zqtk" and whatever other obscurely-named domains.
Frankly, were I to see "yldbt" or "zqtk" as a running process or folder name on a system I was working on, I'd immediately rename them and start virus and malware scans.
So I guess my reading of Wired online will suffer much the same fate as my reading of Wired on paper, because while I like seeing occasional items from Wired it's not a daily destination for me, and I'm certainly not coughing up $50+/year for it.