Cherry’s new switches may help bring mechanical keyboards to more laptops(techcrunch.com)
techcrunch.com
Cherry’s new switches may help bring mechanical keyboards to more laptops
https://techcrunch.com/2018/01/12/cherrys-new-low-profile-switches-may-help-bring-mechanical-keyboards-to-more-laptops/
97 comments
Same, and it's been for me like that for years. Even before Apple had their version of their keyboard, which I absolutely /love/. At some point it was very hard to find laptop-like keyboards for desktops. A lot of people laugh at me for it, thinking it's not a "proper" keyboard, but I think it just boils down to preference and I personally don't buy into the mechanical hype.
https://www.cherry.de/cid/corded_keyboards_CHERRY_STRAIT_30_...
https://www.cherry.de/cid/corded_keyboards_STRAIT_Corded_Key...
https://www.cherry.de/cid/corded_keyboards_STRAIT_BLACK_Cord...
These have been around for seven or eight years.
These have been around for seven or eight years.
Do you press the keys all the way down on those thicker mechanical keyboards? Because it doesn't actually take that much key travel for a key press to register.
I've used a mechanical keyboard for a couple years. Yes, there is a 1-2 mm buffer zone after the keypress registers. No, it's not practical to manually stop and reverse within that zone consistently while typing at a fast speed. I would even say it's unsafe due to the extra tension in the wrists needed for that kind of precision. But it is possible to just type a little softer and reduce the noise of the "clack" as well as wrist tension.
I find a type a lot lot softer now than I used to (which, since I don’t bottom out the keys, means less strain because I only barely touch keys). I use a Kinesis Advantage 2 (with a 3 button foot pedal and Cherry MX Brown keys) and its absolutely the most comfort I’ve ever had while typing. I type faster and more accurately than I did before and I feel a lot less hand/arm strain even after long periods of intense typing. I honestly wish I’d bought one ten years sooner (ok, an Advantage, since the Advantage 2 didn’t exist then), when I first considered it, but didn’t because the price seemed too high. I type that much, though, that the cost is nothing over its lifetime, especially if it helps me reduce or avoid RSI.
I’m always baffled when I see pepole absolutely hammer their keyboards. My hands hurt just thinking about it. Or just using bad keyboards at all. Our careers and hobbies rely on our hands so much that its a no brainer to optimise for their wellbeing, even if the keyboard is a tad expensive.
But I’m obviously a fanboy now, and I’m sure not everybody loves them as much as I do...
I’m always baffled when I see pepole absolutely hammer their keyboards. My hands hurt just thinking about it. Or just using bad keyboards at all. Our careers and hobbies rely on our hands so much that its a no brainer to optimise for their wellbeing, even if the keyboard is a tad expensive.
But I’m obviously a fanboy now, and I’m sure not everybody loves them as much as I do...
Can't speak for anybody else, but I know -I- hammer at my laptop keyboard because the keyboard is terrible and if I ease off it will sporadically fail to detect keypresses. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that this is the case for a lot of laptop or other less-key-travel keyboards, especially outside known brands. I use an external kb/mouse/monitor wherever it's feasible, but in that instance I generally just have to grab whatever is lying around the workplace, which means I generally get older mechanical keyboards with longer key travel distance (which, in turn, I don't have to hit as hard, though I'll admit that I still make a pretty satisfying whack on the spacebar). I -could- order my own kb/m and carry them around with me (and maybe I should), but then it's not really much of a laptop is it? :p
Thanks for the insight!
I typically have my own Jones is at home and a keyboard in the office (maybe I’ll buy my own second kinesis some day as not all employers provide me with one) and use the laptop keyboard when I’m not at my desk (at home or in the office).
I typically have my own Jones is at home and a keyboard in the office (maybe I’ll buy my own second kinesis some day as not all employers provide me with one) and use the laptop keyboard when I’m not at my desk (at home or in the office).
Yes! If one's typing "correctly" on a mechanical keyboard, they would hear/feel the click and very little clack -- otherwise they're jamming the keys down with more force than needed.
Of course, some people enjoy mechanical keyboards simply because they just like... jamming the keys down as hard as possible and hearing loud noises, I support? And we all do that sometimes, I guess. But... that is definitely not the point of those mechanical keys.
Of course, some people enjoy mechanical keyboards simply because they just like... jamming the keys down as hard as possible and hearing loud noises, I support? And we all do that sometimes, I guess. But... that is definitely not the point of those mechanical keys.
To be fair it depends on the keyswitches used, and the keys you trained on.
I learnt to type on real mechanical typewriters, where some considerable force was needed. It's taken some time to relearn gentler typing.
I learnt to type on real mechanical typewriters, where some considerable force was needed. It's taken some time to relearn gentler typing.
Personally, I just keep scaling up the springs in my switches. Started standard, then went up to 85g, sitting at 180g with 250g switches waiting to be put into a board. No gentle typing required and I never bottom out strongly while typing.
I think what is proposed to happen is that you just hit the keys less hard not that you are going all out and then strain to pull back before you hit bottom.
No, I don't, and I don't press the keys all the way down on a laptop keyboard either. You quickly get used to how much force you need to make the key register.
Same! I type at 130wpm, have spent the last few years doing a tour of mechanical keyboard options, and in the end nothing allows to type faster than the chiclet membrane ThinkPad keyboard.
There are new Kailh low profile switches and keycaps, and I'm guessing they'll be better than what I've been using (most recently, Gateron Clears). But it's definitely a case of trying to emulate a chiclet keyboard with a mech one, which isn't what I thought my goal would be when I started out with mechs.
There are new Kailh low profile switches and keycaps, and I'm guessing they'll be better than what I've been using (most recently, Gateron Clears). But it's definitely a case of trying to emulate a chiclet keyboard with a mech one, which isn't what I thought my goal would be when I started out with mechs.
I have a thinkpad I've been using for a while, and the keyboard is nice - but the PgUp and PgDn keys around the arrow keys drive me nuts - I'm constantly paging around by accident!
I had the same issue. I disabled them in xmodmap for several years, then eventually decided I was never going to use them and cut out the rubber dome. Here's what it looks like: https://i.imgur.com/Bm6KtIN.jpg
I've ended up really liking them there for the easy ctrl+pgup to flick between browser/terminal/etc. tabs. I don't tend to hit them by accident though, can see how that would get frustrating.
In my experience, the Thinkpad chiclet keyboard is awful in terms of its key layout, and inferior in keypress tactile feel. The keyboard I prefer above all others is the earlier generation Thinkpad USB keyboard, the SK-8855 (http://www.nb591.com/attachments/day_150405/1504051543cdb88f...). They are out of production, but go for $50-$100 on ebay.
Yeah, I prefer that one as well, and I have one at home. In particular, I like that that one has a built-in palm rest.
Consider spacers. I use 2mm ones to reduce travel and bottoming-out impact on all my (MX-switched) keyboards, and wouldn't go back.
What is a "spacer"? Can you link to some photos of them in action?
http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/keyboard-acc...
FWIW, first result after searching for “keyboard spacer”
FWIW, first result after searching for “keyboard spacer”
Sibling comment covers most of it. I would add that, for installation, the body tube of a cheap Bic-type stick pen makes a handy tool of just the right diameter to press the spacer into place at the base of the keycap stem - still a little fiddly, but much quicker than any other way I've found.
i'd be all over that keyboard if it had proper arrow keys and a numpad. I still have to eBay for old Model M style keyboards with the track-pointer, and they're getting to be harder and harder to come by.
Something like this, perhaps?
http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/UB40PGA
http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/UB40PGA
I feel the same and I use the very same USB keyboard for that reason.
Meanwhile we have the keyboard of the new Macbooks. Get as loud as mechanical keyboards with no tactile fisher price feeling. And we should not even start of talking about durability.
That's not a fair comparison. These keyboard switches are far too huge for thin laptops. The whole thickness of a macbook pro is 20% thinner than just one of these switches.
I may be weird, but I have a 2017MBP and I love the keyboard.
Well I hate them when coworkers are using them in a shared environment.
[deleted]
I'm using a Thinkpad T430, at the moment. I can live with the chicklets, although the surface on these is a touch too slippery for me -- my fingers too easily find the edges of the keys, upon occasion.
However, the frustrating part is that some keys occasionally fail to register. Left shift being one of them; some of my ampersands turn into sevens (and, it just dropped the n in "into") -- particularly frustrating when I mean to background a command.
The "God we all miss them", "real" keyboard on my W520 does not exhibit this.
This T430 does have the backlit keyboard; I understand it's from the parts supplier (I forget which, offhand) that tends to have more "wobble" in their keys. That may be part of it.
People focus SO much on the internals of these machines. For fuck's sake, start by putting good keyboards and displays in them. I don't care how fast it runs, if it's a pain to use and its ergonomics slow me down.
I don't mind "cheaper", "thinner", "cooler" (style), whatever laptop designs. I DO mind the trend towards that being the only thing I can buy.
I don't have a T25, yet, but I may. And I hope there's a T26 or whatever they call it, and so on.
(And then, I'll dream about an open BIOS and a machine that is really mine, in terms of its computational functionality.)
However, the frustrating part is that some keys occasionally fail to register. Left shift being one of them; some of my ampersands turn into sevens (and, it just dropped the n in "into") -- particularly frustrating when I mean to background a command.
The "God we all miss them", "real" keyboard on my W520 does not exhibit this.
This T430 does have the backlit keyboard; I understand it's from the parts supplier (I forget which, offhand) that tends to have more "wobble" in their keys. That may be part of it.
People focus SO much on the internals of these machines. For fuck's sake, start by putting good keyboards and displays in them. I don't care how fast it runs, if it's a pain to use and its ergonomics slow me down.
I don't mind "cheaper", "thinner", "cooler" (style), whatever laptop designs. I DO mind the trend towards that being the only thing I can buy.
I don't have a T25, yet, but I may. And I hope there's a T26 or whatever they call it, and so on.
(And then, I'll dream about an open BIOS and a machine that is really mine, in terms of its computational functionality.)
I'm just like you, I prefer a good keyboard, mouse and screen over lightness and thinness. That's why I went with the T25 instead of waiting for the 8th gen Intel's last year. Good keyboard, a minimal window manager and I'm the most efficient. But I think we're in minority.
GoldTouch has a folding mobile ergonomic keyboard in USB and Bluetooth versions, relatively silent full-size keys with tactile feedback, 2.7 mm key travel, 45g activation. They have been around for a while and began with desktop keyboards.
https://www.amazon.com/Goldtouch-GTP-0044-Mobile-Keyboard-US...
https://deskthority.net/wiki/Goldtouch_Adjustable_Keyboard
https://www.amazon.com/Goldtouch-GTP-0044-Mobile-Keyboard-US...
https://deskthority.net/wiki/Goldtouch_Adjustable_Keyboard
I have one and these are pretty good, but I wouldn't say the keys have an amazing feel - its more the form factor and tenting that I like about this keyboard. The goldtouch keys are a bit wobbly vis-a-vis the new apple desktop (not MacBook) keyboards with butterfly switches, which are quicker to type on.
Mechanical Keyboards have always been a curse in disguise for me. Sure, the feedback is nice but the 'click' sound is very distracting and breaks my flow.
It's even worse when a coworker/housemate/other person has one. I swear that sound is not impeded by walls.
It's even worse when a coworker/housemate/other person has one. I swear that sound is not impeded by walls.
I specifically bought a keyboard with Cherry MX Red Silent switches for work, it doesn't click and the sound is quite muffled in comparison to normal MX Red. I've checked multiple times and it doesn't bother my coworkers.
There are none-clicky mechanical switches too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherry_(keyboards)
Look at the column "Clicky".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherry_(keyboards)
Look at the column "Clicky".
My partner has the same, she hates my mechanical keyboards (mainly a Razer BlackWidow Ulimate Stealth). However she's sensitive to sounds in general (we suspect its part of a form of autism for which she'll get psychologically tested this year). It was an important factor of the decision to skip the MBP 2016, forcing me to go with a 2015 version instead.
However, it is possible to make the sounds less severe by touching them lighter. And on the Razer device these are Cherry MX Black with silencer. There's Cherry MX Brown if you need a more silent switches. If it was my choice, I'd use Cherry MX Blue (or, well, Green, as it resembles the old IBM keyboard the best)...
Personally, the sound of keyboards doesn't bother me (though I wonder the effect on TEMPEST). I just get annoyed by sounds from mobile phones in general. Especially if it keeps occurring all the time while the user is using the phone. Pointless IMO. "Look at me, I'm popular." I find it rude when people cause noise in public (such as a restroom, or a train/bus), be it they're on the phone or having a phone which generates noise. The exception I got to that is children. I have compassion for children, tho its the parents who should solve the problem that isn't always practical.
However, it is possible to make the sounds less severe by touching them lighter. And on the Razer device these are Cherry MX Black with silencer. There's Cherry MX Brown if you need a more silent switches. If it was my choice, I'd use Cherry MX Blue (or, well, Green, as it resembles the old IBM keyboard the best)...
Personally, the sound of keyboards doesn't bother me (though I wonder the effect on TEMPEST). I just get annoyed by sounds from mobile phones in general. Especially if it keeps occurring all the time while the user is using the phone. Pointless IMO. "Look at me, I'm popular." I find it rude when people cause noise in public (such as a restroom, or a train/bus), be it they're on the phone or having a phone which generates noise. The exception I got to that is children. I have compassion for children, tho its the parents who should solve the problem that isn't always practical.
Made an account just to comment on this.
I support you guys’ decision to getting screened for the spectrum. In the meanwhile, do check out the Wikipedia page for Misophonia.
I have a form of it, where I can’t eat around people because the “chewing sound” they make is absolutely rage inducing. Similarly, one of my friends has a form of it where the sound of someone cracking their knuckles enrages her just as similarly, and she will start bawling, not crying, bawling for a good while. Neighter of us have a reason (or memory thereof) to associate these sounds as triggers.
So, while I’m not a medical anything, I do suggest checking out that page, at least to quench your curiosity. For some added context, I do suffer from other auditory ailments, as well as ADHD. A link between misophonia and different mental sicknesses is suspected, however there is almost no research on this subject, leave alone one that’s looking for links. YMMV.
EDIT: typos; on mobile
I support you guys’ decision to getting screened for the spectrum. In the meanwhile, do check out the Wikipedia page for Misophonia.
I have a form of it, where I can’t eat around people because the “chewing sound” they make is absolutely rage inducing. Similarly, one of my friends has a form of it where the sound of someone cracking their knuckles enrages her just as similarly, and she will start bawling, not crying, bawling for a good while. Neighter of us have a reason (or memory thereof) to associate these sounds as triggers.
So, while I’m not a medical anything, I do suggest checking out that page, at least to quench your curiosity. For some added context, I do suffer from other auditory ailments, as well as ADHD. A link between misophonia and different mental sicknesses is suspected, however there is almost no research on this subject, leave alone one that’s looking for links. YMMV.
EDIT: typos; on mobile
Cheers, TYVM for mentioning this. I bought this DVD [1] and will bring this subject up in my local autism group (I got a diagnosis as well). There are many more reasons for us to get her checked for the spectrum (me getting diagnosis was an eye opener for sure). I suspect this proposed disability (it isn't part of DSM or even ICD) might be linked to autism. At the very least, there's more sound related issues such as light sleep, exceptional hearing, and sensitivity to emotion in sound. Part of autism is under- and oversensitivity.
[1] http://www.quietpleasefilm.com/about-2/
[1] http://www.quietpleasefilm.com/about-2/
I just recently put orings on my keyboard. It does take some of the clack out of it, namely the sound of you bottoming out. I know there are few other methods but this cost me like five bucks.
You can get quieter switches. Or even put a silencer on them (basically plastic rings).
Not really silencers.. they dampen the sound a bit. There’s still a click.
Whether there is any click depends very much on the switch.
This seems to be only a smaller red switch (linear, no tactile feedback) with a translucent casing for those 'gaming' laptops.
I don't think that this will bring a (clicky,) tactile MX switch to thin and light ultrabooks which are (imho) more suitable for coding.
I don't think that this will bring a (clicky,) tactile MX switch to thin and light ultrabooks which are (imho) more suitable for coding.
I've been looking for low profile switches to built a mobile version of my Atreus keyboard. Nice to see Cherry entering the game. Kailh has more options, including tactile https://www.novelkeys.xyz/product/kailh-low-profile-switches...
Cherry has had low profile switches for a long time, though they are far from common.
https://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_ML
I have one G84 and it's nice and "silent". But it's a pain to find compatible keycaps:
https://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_G84_series
https://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_ML
I have one G84 and it's nice and "silent". But it's a pain to find compatible keycaps:
https://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_G84_series
The problem with those Kailh is getting keycaps. At least the cherry one will be compatible with MX keycaps, although I don't know where you'd get low-profile ones from. Hopefully they're available as spare parts soon.
As an ergodox user, I'd also be really interested in a mobile low-profile Atreus, but I need more keys, at least like an Atreus64.
As an ergodox user, I'd also be really interested in a mobile low-profile Atreus, but I need more keys, at least like an Atreus64.
There's an atreus62 variant available (I have one, love it). You can order the components (or prebuilt models) from profetkeyboards.com
Personally, I shift the letter keys out to the sides by 1, so the pinky's only have 1 column to deal with, and there 2 extra rows in the middle. This also has the effect of rotating the wrists outwards even more - comfy!
As it turns out, I don't even need the full 62 keys (and have even pulled 8 keycaps off!). Depending on your preferred layout, you might also get away with <60 keys.
But a low-profile variant would be nice :)
Personally, I shift the letter keys out to the sides by 1, so the pinky's only have 1 column to deal with, and there 2 extra rows in the middle. This also has the effect of rotating the wrists outwards even more - comfy!
As it turns out, I don't even need the full 62 keys (and have even pulled 8 keycaps off!). Depending on your preferred layout, you might also get away with <60 keys.
But a low-profile variant would be nice :)
Oops, I actually meant atreus62.
But maybe an atreus64 would be better (if it existed) because I would like some more thumb keys like my ergodox.
But maybe an atreus64 would be better (if it existed) because I would like some more thumb keys like my ergodox.
On the Topic of Keyboard, Dell has a new Keyboard on its new XPS 15 called Maglev, using magnet instead of switches, which said to allow the thinness of MBP keyboard while still giving some key depth.
I cant wait to see how that turns out.
I cant wait to see how that turns out.
Is the travel comparable the rubber-dome spring based ones in most laptops? (excluding apple's latest obscenity of course).
I like the short travel and low force of most laptop keyboards but I really hate the flimsy spongeyness of them... they aren't proper switches like cherries so they have a tendency to be wobbly, inconsistent and spongey. Over time this gets worse.
I'd really like it if I could keep the low travel and low force but have it smooth consistent and non-spongey.
I like the short travel and low force of most laptop keyboards but I really hate the flimsy spongeyness of them... they aren't proper switches like cherries so they have a tendency to be wobbly, inconsistent and spongey. Over time this gets worse.
I'd really like it if I could keep the low travel and low force but have it smooth consistent and non-spongey.
Thin laptops won't be getting this tech. These switches are still thicker than an entire macbook pro.
Couldn't haptics (and taptics) be used to augment a keyboard with better feedback and a feeling of travel and bounce back without an actual physical switch?
I performed an experiment based on this idea - I wired up a clicky relay to the numlock LED (via a transistor), and glued it to a decent Dell keyboard. Then, I rigged up a python script to toggle the numlock led on each key press/release event.
Honestly, typing experience wasn't too different to a real mechanical keyboard.
Honestly, typing experience wasn't too different to a real mechanical keyboard.
Good mechanical switches have a kind of mechanical haptic feedback that lets you know with a click, that your keystroke has registered, without bottoming out the key.
Right. I wonder if travel can be eliminated even further with vibration-based, rather than actual mechanical, feedback.
That sounds pretty expensive, IMO. There would need to be one motor for each key that's isolated so only one key vibrates. And on top of it, it would be a pretty big keyboard too.
If somebody has done this before, I would love to try such a keyboard.
If somebody has done this before, I would love to try such a keyboard.
I'm not sure if you can get enough force from them, but maybe a piezo crystal under each key could provide localized feedback more economically and with less space requirement.
Still waiting on the wireless mechanical keyboards :-).
There are quite a few on the market.
I see that I am a bit behind in that two (Velocifire, and RK) seem to have actually mechanical wireless keyboards (I found that when looking for them that often a chiclet style would be advertised as 'mechanical' while still just being a squish dome type) I've ordered one of each from Amazon to see if they can replace my current daily driver which is the Corsair.
There are, and very cheap too: https://www.amazon.com/RK-Bluetooth-Wireless-Mechanical-Keyb...
The great thing about mechanical keyboards, for me, is that almost all of them are full-size, and are laid out according to the traditional old IBM PS/2 design. For me, that form factor is important, because I have big hands with sausage fingers. The mechanical switches, in and of themselves, are less important than sturdy construction and consistent layout. I've never had two laptops with the same keyboard layout, and seen some downright-boneheaded ux decisions - my current work machine puts the power button inline in the top right, where you expect a delete button to be.
I felt the first twinges of carpal tunnel back in the day but switching to a Cherry keyboard cleared it right up. Now I wouldn’t use any other.
The best thing to do to deal with carpal tunnel is to change your keyboard out every few months. It doesn't matter if its Cherry or whatever - simply don't use the same keyboard for longer than 3 - 4 months.
(This is just my personal experience. 30 years ago I was diagnosed with carpal tunnel, and I change my keyboard every 6 months. Never had it since!)
(This is just my personal experience. 30 years ago I was diagnosed with carpal tunnel, and I change my keyboard every 6 months. Never had it since!)
This makes sense. Changing the keyboard presumably leads to a different set of repetitive motions and different injury mechanisms, giving your musculoskeletal system the opportunity to heal existing damage.
Was the approach of changing your keyboard periodically recommended by a medical professional? Or by something you read?
Was the approach of changing your keyboard periodically recommended by a medical professional? Or by something you read?
It's more likely you're just conscious of your hand posture now.
Suppose that's true. The prescription of changing keyboards every X months to help stay conscious of hand posture would make sense.
Sure, but it's a bit much to say something like this, don't you think?
>The best thing to do to deal with carpal tunnel is to change your keyboard out every few months.
N=1. Expensive solution. More likely alternative explanations.
>The best thing to do to deal with carpal tunnel is to change your keyboard out every few months.
N=1. Expensive solution. More likely alternative explanations.
Expensive really? I beg to differ - far cheaper than any of the other options, such as physical therapy, drugs, etc.
Sometimes the simplest solution is the best one.
Sometimes the simplest solution is the best one.
>Sometimes the simplest solution is the best one.
Yeah. Which is exactly why if the benefit is being aware of your hand posture you're better off just sticking a note on your keyboard than buying a new one every few months.
That was my whole point!
Yeah. Which is exactly why if the benefit is being aware of your hand posture you're better off just sticking a note on your keyboard than buying a new one every few months.
That was my whole point!
I don't buy a new one every few months. I simply have a collection of keyboards, and I swap them out every few months. That's really the only point - you don't have to do this expensively.
Besides, keyboards are cheap... cheaper than therapy and drugs and all the other hassle. This really is the simplest, cheapest solution. And no, I don't buy the 'woo woo hand wavy' aspect you imply - I believe that having different geometry to deal with, keeps my hands from becoming accustomed to the repetition of previous keyboards, and thus it exercises my hands in a different way - and it is the difference that matters, above all else, to keeping RSI away ..
Besides, keyboards are cheap... cheaper than therapy and drugs and all the other hassle. This really is the simplest, cheapest solution. And no, I don't buy the 'woo woo hand wavy' aspect you imply - I believe that having different geometry to deal with, keeps my hands from becoming accustomed to the repetition of previous keyboards, and thus it exercises my hands in a different way - and it is the difference that matters, above all else, to keeping RSI away ..
>This really is the simplest, cheapest solution.
Except a sticky note.
Except a sticky note.
It doesn't change a thing and I do not acknowledge the efficacy of such an action. Sometimes in life you have to actually do things, thinking about them is not enough..
Same here, I switched to Kinesis Advantage keyboards many moons ago, and it saved me. I went from braces on both forearms to nothing, and never looked back.
Yeah, I find I tend to hit the keys much less hard
stevebmark(5)
At my desk, I use a USB version of the same laptop keyboard and mouse that's on my laptop: https://download.lenovo.com/km/media/images/PD026745/tp_comp...