35 Over 35(theamericanscholar.org)
theamericanscholar.org
35 Over 35
https://theamericanscholar.org/35-over-35/
127 comments
No, these lists just celebrate the outliers - people who extraordinarily successful. It can't be everyone's goal to make it onto one of these lists, because there are billions of people in the world. The vast majority of us are also fumbling through life, and a few are lucky enough to achieve lots of success. They make it onto these lists because they have an unusual and interesting story. I think the word "success" has become overloaded with some insane expectations, especially in media, or in Silicon Valley circles. I don't think it makes sense to label these writers or entrepreneurs as simply "successful". They're the very top of the field, just like an Olympic gold medalist.
This list is about some of the most popular writers who were over the age of 35 when they became famous. But I was talking to a successful writer on Reddit. They weren't super famous, but they made a good living from writing and selling some YA and fiction. They weren't overnight millionaires, but they did end up starting a small publishing company. They made a solid living, and they were able to raise a family and save for retirement. I don't think they made it to the top of any bestseller lists, but I would still call them a very successful writer.
This is also one of the reasons why I like the Indie Hackers community [1], and also the SaaS podcast [2]. I really like reading stories about people who are building SaaS products that eventually make it $100k per year in revenue. I find these stories much more interesting and relevant than reading about huge fundraising rounds, or the history of Uber and Facebook. You have a much greater chance of success with a smaller sustainable company instead of a crazy moonshot. But you won't get featured in TechCrunch, and you won't make it onto any of these 30 under 30 lists.
[1] https://www.indiehackers.com
[2] https://saasclub.io/saas-podcast
This list is about some of the most popular writers who were over the age of 35 when they became famous. But I was talking to a successful writer on Reddit. They weren't super famous, but they made a good living from writing and selling some YA and fiction. They weren't overnight millionaires, but they did end up starting a small publishing company. They made a solid living, and they were able to raise a family and save for retirement. I don't think they made it to the top of any bestseller lists, but I would still call them a very successful writer.
This is also one of the reasons why I like the Indie Hackers community [1], and also the SaaS podcast [2]. I really like reading stories about people who are building SaaS products that eventually make it $100k per year in revenue. I find these stories much more interesting and relevant than reading about huge fundraising rounds, or the history of Uber and Facebook. You have a much greater chance of success with a smaller sustainable company instead of a crazy moonshot. But you won't get featured in TechCrunch, and you won't make it onto any of these 30 under 30 lists.
[1] https://www.indiehackers.com
[2] https://saasclub.io/saas-podcast
Yes, I think most people would consider 35 too late to stop one career (where you might already be making something of yourself, but aren't satisfied) and start another (that you might actually love).
With reasons ranging from too risky in terms of expected cost/benefit, to you can't learn as quickly, to family obligations won't give you the time or energy required.
I personally think the learning speed one is bunk -- even if your brain slows down a little (debatable), it seems more than made up for by experience in how you learn most efficiently, on top of general life experience.
So lists like this help remind you that you still can, if you're so inclined. For more inspiration in the creative direction (e.g. writing like in this list), see particularly the well-known book The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron. [1]
[1] https://www.amazon.com/Artists-Way-25th-Anniversary/dp/01431...
With reasons ranging from too risky in terms of expected cost/benefit, to you can't learn as quickly, to family obligations won't give you the time or energy required.
I personally think the learning speed one is bunk -- even if your brain slows down a little (debatable), it seems more than made up for by experience in how you learn most efficiently, on top of general life experience.
So lists like this help remind you that you still can, if you're so inclined. For more inspiration in the creative direction (e.g. writing like in this list), see particularly the well-known book The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron. [1]
[1] https://www.amazon.com/Artists-Way-25th-Anniversary/dp/01431...
Right, let's say you are 35, you already changed careers once. If you have a family and you aren't rich, you are stuck, that's it, your life is over.
And if you are not? Let's say you got to med school, and let's say everything goes PERFECTLY. You are still 47 with $200,000 in student loan debt, what was the point?
Or you to the army because you always wanted to be a Green Beret, now you are 41 with your career dead and a path into management.
You can still take risks, like starting a business, but now the cost is very real. The question of "When do I start living. What's the grind actually for?" starts to become very real.
And if you are not? Let's say you got to med school, and let's say everything goes PERFECTLY. You are still 47 with $200,000 in student loan debt, what was the point?
Or you to the army because you always wanted to be a Green Beret, now you are 41 with your career dead and a path into management.
You can still take risks, like starting a business, but now the cost is very real. The question of "When do I start living. What's the grind actually for?" starts to become very real.
>Every rotation around the sun my opinion is solidified that we're all just wingin' it, no matter the age and success can happen whenever.
One of the most impactful realizations I've had in my entire life is that, with _incredibly_ few exceptions, everyone is fumbling. All the time. Regardless of age. Some people are just better at hiding it than others.
After I was able to fully internalize that, life got easier. I stopped putting so much pressure on myself. It became "okay" if I didn't know how to deal with a situation, or felt completely overwhelmed. I'm still fumbling, but I've come to terms with it and I feel much better as a result.
If I ever feel really confident I've "figured out" life, that's when I'll get really worried.
One of the most impactful realizations I've had in my entire life is that, with _incredibly_ few exceptions, everyone is fumbling. All the time. Regardless of age. Some people are just better at hiding it than others.
After I was able to fully internalize that, life got easier. I stopped putting so much pressure on myself. It became "okay" if I didn't know how to deal with a situation, or felt completely overwhelmed. I'm still fumbling, but I've come to terms with it and I feel much better as a result.
If I ever feel really confident I've "figured out" life, that's when I'll get really worried.
> Is 35 normally considered too old to make something of yourself by society?
By Western Society norms, yes. But there's no reason to take notice of what other people around you expect you to be doing at a given age. If you feel the need to learn something new, or branch out in a different direction - do it! Or at least start planning to do it.
I'm currently on my 5th career - some may see that as a failure to commit, irresponsible even. I consider it a welcome challenge - a chance to prove myself (again) and an opportunity to grow while having some fun along the way.
> And when speaking to friends older than me, the majority seem to still be fumbling through as well.
This information is only released to people after they pass their 40th birthday; leaking such information to younger people is strictly forbidden!
By Western Society norms, yes. But there's no reason to take notice of what other people around you expect you to be doing at a given age. If you feel the need to learn something new, or branch out in a different direction - do it! Or at least start planning to do it.
I'm currently on my 5th career - some may see that as a failure to commit, irresponsible even. I consider it a welcome challenge - a chance to prove myself (again) and an opportunity to grow while having some fun along the way.
> And when speaking to friends older than me, the majority seem to still be fumbling through as well.
This information is only released to people after they pass their 40th birthday; leaking such information to younger people is strictly forbidden!
Writers actually tend to be rather slow starters. You don't hear about a mathematician's "juvenilia", but a search on Amazon for "juvenilia" turns up quite a few--quite a lot of Jane Austen, but also Charlotte Bronte, W.H. Auden, and Leigh Hunt.
> I don't understand
Have you not noticed the constant barrage of stories like "21-year-old sells billion-dollar company!" or "Teenager discovers new medical breakthrough!"? Or the dozens of "30 under 30" lists?
This seems to be a response to that.
Have you not noticed the constant barrage of stories like "21-year-old sells billion-dollar company!" or "Teenager discovers new medical breakthrough!"? Or the dozens of "30 under 30" lists?
This seems to be a response to that.
Everybody is either copying something someone else made up, or making it up as they go along. Most people only try the second strategy when the first one fails.
In regards to this article, I would not be at all surprised if the average age of first publishing for successful authors was well above 35. Is apparently around 45, for successful startup founders.
'Research: The Average Age of a Successful Startup Founder Is 45' - https://hbr.org/2018/07/research-the-average-age-of-a-succes...
In regards to this article, I would not be at all surprised if the average age of first publishing for successful authors was well above 35. Is apparently around 45, for successful startup founders.
'Research: The Average Age of a Successful Startup Founder Is 45' - https://hbr.org/2018/07/research-the-average-age-of-a-succes...
The market seems to reflect that age is a valuable attribute for entrepreneurs[1], and I'd be curious to know the average age of published authors, composers, mathematicians, and so on; particularity when it comes to works that society deems important long term. But anecdotally I'd say that an individual's future potential is more interesting to society at large, based on prevalence in the media and the social cachet of hanging around with people in the 30 under 30 crowd.
I also think that success is too broad a term to characterize generally, but if you think about different opportunities and pressures in each logical window of time in an average person's life then it should be apparent that different varieties of success are more probable for each timeframe, even if chance contributes on an equal basis with any other personal attribute.
In any case, being comfortable with wingin' it is probably itself a favored characteristic.
-- https://hbr.org/2018/07/research-the-average-age-of-a-succes...
I also think that success is too broad a term to characterize generally, but if you think about different opportunities and pressures in each logical window of time in an average person's life then it should be apparent that different varieties of success are more probable for each timeframe, even if chance contributes on an equal basis with any other personal attribute.
In any case, being comfortable with wingin' it is probably itself a favored characteristic.
-- https://hbr.org/2018/07/research-the-average-age-of-a-succes...
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I turned 28 this year and I feel the exact same way.
I’m floating along okay, but I’m deathly afraid of dev jobs and employers locking me out for being too old or not having some TED talk in my field.
I’m floating along okay, but I’m deathly afraid of dev jobs and employers locking me out for being too old or not having some TED talk in my field.
It's the idea that if you haven't done anything notable in your first 35 years, maybe you don't have what it takes. It's the "test of time".
If you look into the biographies of successful people, "winging it" is very much not an apt description.
If you look into the biographies of successful people, "winging it" is very much not an apt description.
>I don't understand: Is 35 normally considered too old to make something of yourself by society?
Possibly. For instance, Einstein was essentially done by his 30s.
Possibly. For instance, Einstein was essentially done by his 30s.
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I think it's a reaction to the published lists of people who are under something like 35.
NB Regarding the "fumbling through" feeling, I'm 53 and I think one of the comforting things about getting older is realising that it's not just you but that, in general, everyone is pretty much making life up as they go along :-)
NB Regarding the "fumbling through" feeling, I'm 53 and I think one of the comforting things about getting older is realising that it's not just you but that, in general, everyone is pretty much making life up as they go along :-)
> everyone is pretty much making life up as they go along :-)
This has also been my observation at 30. I've worked with people all ages and people of all statures and most people are just doing what they think is right and not much is based on facts. Even high ranking people at fortune 500 companies are just doing what feels right to them and often their success is more related to people below them working their asses off than their leadership. The only difference between people who are in control and people who don't, is often that the former don't have a realistic view of why they're successful.
And, as a nuance, there are of course people who are really good at what they do and that have a lot of knowledge. A lot of people, however, just were really lucky (or really good at networking) to get where they are. Even some Nobel Prize winners just got lucky:
http://www.physics.org/featuredetail.asp?id=71
This has also been my observation at 30. I've worked with people all ages and people of all statures and most people are just doing what they think is right and not much is based on facts. Even high ranking people at fortune 500 companies are just doing what feels right to them and often their success is more related to people below them working their asses off than their leadership. The only difference between people who are in control and people who don't, is often that the former don't have a realistic view of why they're successful.
And, as a nuance, there are of course people who are really good at what they do and that have a lot of knowledge. A lot of people, however, just were really lucky (or really good at networking) to get where they are. Even some Nobel Prize winners just got lucky:
http://www.physics.org/featuredetail.asp?id=71
At 53 also and a number of career reboots, as well as staying at home raising kids, my observation is the same about the making life up as they (we) go along. Conversations with friends who cashed out at 7 figures after reaching very high levels in very large corps just affirms the view for me. Pretty much everyone appears to be winging it. There is a definite comfort and freedom in this realization.
I really appreciate career changes and variety in my friends because it keeps it fresh in my mind just how much we're all wingin' it. There's something liberating about that feeling.
I don't think it's the age, it's the other life obligations.
In my early 20's I was in college. Graduated in 2008 in to the recession and was lucky to have _any_ job. Spent all of my nights learning coding.
In my mid-late 20's, starting in 2011, I finally got a crappy job with a pay cut in tech (sort of) doing ad operations. I worked hard and spent the evenings getting better at Java so I could use the Dart For Publishers SDK to automate things I hated doing at work (inadvertently helped the company make about a million extra bucks that year, I later realized).
In my early 30's, I got married, changed countries, became a Technical Account Manager, studied Python and German in my free time, and eventually became a dev for a video game company.
In my (our, now) mid-30's, we had a kid, and now I spend my free time on that and house repair, etc. I still like coding but after dinner, bath, bedtime stories, maybe 15 minutes chatting with the spouse, and then other chores, I'm going to bed (before anyone asks, I watch 0 TV and do very little by way of social networks).
I have a colleague who's in his late 20's, no kids, and he's on Slack all. the. time. He talks about stuff he worked on (for work, not for hobbies) over the weekend. I don't think I produce as much as him, to be honest. Makes me a bit anxious about where I stand - hard to compare my 40 hours to effectively his whole life.
I think I need a plan B.
(Related discussion - and the article is 10 years old so the young'uns then are getting in to their 30's now) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9361580
In my early 20's I was in college. Graduated in 2008 in to the recession and was lucky to have _any_ job. Spent all of my nights learning coding.
In my mid-late 20's, starting in 2011, I finally got a crappy job with a pay cut in tech (sort of) doing ad operations. I worked hard and spent the evenings getting better at Java so I could use the Dart For Publishers SDK to automate things I hated doing at work (inadvertently helped the company make about a million extra bucks that year, I later realized).
In my early 30's, I got married, changed countries, became a Technical Account Manager, studied Python and German in my free time, and eventually became a dev for a video game company.
In my (our, now) mid-30's, we had a kid, and now I spend my free time on that and house repair, etc. I still like coding but after dinner, bath, bedtime stories, maybe 15 minutes chatting with the spouse, and then other chores, I'm going to bed (before anyone asks, I watch 0 TV and do very little by way of social networks).
I have a colleague who's in his late 20's, no kids, and he's on Slack all. the. time. He talks about stuff he worked on (for work, not for hobbies) over the weekend. I don't think I produce as much as him, to be honest. Makes me a bit anxious about where I stand - hard to compare my 40 hours to effectively his whole life.
I think I need a plan B.
(Related discussion - and the article is 10 years old so the young'uns then are getting in to their 30's now) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9361580
You may want to consider looking into academia. Everyone knows the pay isn't as good, but that can be an advantage. Academia loses (or never gets) a lot of talented engineers due to the pay, lack of fancy perks, etc. There actually are perks though. Also, for some, the sense of personal fulfillment depending on the field or project you're working on can be of significant value (just not monetary). There's also the fear that academic jobs are solely dependent on grants, which is true in some cases, but there are positions that are funded by the institution itself. Also, I wonder how much more "job security" the typical person really does have in industry. Regardless, It's something to think about.
What kind of academia? Because the traditional PhD -> post-doc -> prof track is absolutely not a good place for work/life balance. Or are you talking about being a programmer for a university?
The job market for professors in CS right now is great. No need for a postdoc and only a few pubs will get you multiple offers from R1 univerisities in the US.
(I'm a CS prof.)
(I'm a CS prof.)
Wow, that's incredible. I didn't get that impression from the CS PhD students I've met, but I'll take your word for it. But you'd still need a PhD, no? And grad school is definitely not a great place for work/life balance.
Grad school (and tenure-track) isn't considered great for work/life balance, but it seems mostly self-induced. If I had limited myself to 40 hours a week in grad school I think I would have been just as successful.
Anyone I know that wanted a tenure-track position did get one (and had options). I graduated from an unranked department and had a positive experience on the market.
Anyone I know that wanted a tenure-track position did get one (and had options). I graduated from an unranked department and had a positive experience on the market.
Yes, I was referring to programmer (or related) for a university.
My experience with academia was sheer poison. My advisor lied, accused me of cheating with no evidence, and patented the ideas his students generated. Appreciate the comment but... No.
[deleted]
Did you move to Germany/Austria/Switzerland by any chance?
The colleague you described who has no life except work rings very familiarly with my time there.
In my experience, wherever I went, there was always a no-lifer on the team(no kids/wife/girlfriend, no sports/hobbies) who used to answer emails after midnight and push to git on a Sunday hoping to get that pat on the back from the managers. Career advancements were difficult as at your performance review he would be used as the benchmark.
The colleague you described who has no life except work rings very familiarly with my time there.
In my experience, wherever I went, there was always a no-lifer on the team(no kids/wife/girlfriend, no sports/hobbies) who used to answer emails after midnight and push to git on a Sunday hoping to get that pat on the back from the managers. Career advancements were difficult as at your performance review he would be used as the benchmark.
No actually, I just really like the language and the nations that speak them. Could imagine perhaps living there someday (I'm a sucker for Fachwerk architecture, if nothing else!) Though I hear it's hard to make friends, which is an issue since I'm already old, as discussed.
I live in Ireland, which was one of the easier places re: visa, cultural integration, language, etc. and it's been pretty good to me all things considered.
I live in Ireland, which was one of the easier places re: visa, cultural integration, language, etc. and it's been pretty good to me all things considered.
Surely the tradeoff here is that, provided a company treats you okay, you're more likely to stick around than that colleague (if he's that driven then he's surely constantly looking for new opportunities?) and an employee with a few years knowledge of the codebase is generally worth a lot more than a super skilled newbie.
Depends on the area though, I guess. Video game companies seem to have a preference for working people into the ground.
Depends on the area though, I guess. Video game companies seem to have a preference for working people into the ground.
Oh, I left the video game company. It actually wasn't a bad gig, tbh.
Government agencies require developers, and it’s full of older coders at least in my country (Sweden). Lots of benefits such as long vacations. Only problem is they move slow as all hell and they have decades of legacy, which drives the younger developers away because they want to move fast and break things.
Unfortunately I don't think it matters that much. Maybe at one point you could live an alternative life in the seedy part of town if you didn't have kids. But there aren't many alternatives any more.
We're trying to adjust our life so we could live on well under the median income of needs must. In this case it meant leaving the city for a small town about an hour away. Houses are cheap as chips, though.
Cut down your work week if you can afford it. If you can't afford it, change your spending and saving habits so you can afford it in the future. With the spare time you can focus on interesting pet projects or an interesting side hustle.
That's the plan. Just bought a super cheap house to help enable this.
I always remind myself that Paul Gauguin started painting for the first time at 35, and almost at 40 decided to stop being a wealthy stock broker to live as a painter. Regardless of the ethics of that decision (he did leave everyone in his family behind, after all) I do think it's pretty impressive that he picked up a profession like that so late and developed it in such an impressive way (I love his artwork, I think it's incredibly beautiful).
> decided to stop being a wealthy stock broker to live as a painter
He lost everything after the 1882 market crash and eventually moved to Tahiti to pursue the allure of the 'free-spirited and noble savage'. Whilst there he took three teenage brides and infected them with syphilis, from which he himself eventually died.
He lost everything after the 1882 market crash and eventually moved to Tahiti to pursue the allure of the 'free-spirited and noble savage'. Whilst there he took three teenage brides and infected them with syphilis, from which he himself eventually died.
Yep, fully aware of his pedophilia. But the thread is not about morally upstanding people, rather of people who chose to start something in their middle age.
You might also want to point out that by the time he became a full time painter sale of paintings was also super low so it wasn't that the decision was purely because stock brokering was a less desirable outcome. He knew he was choosing a life of poverty.
You might also want to point out that by the time he became a full time painter sale of paintings was also super low so it wasn't that the decision was purely because stock brokering was a less desirable outcome. He knew he was choosing a life of poverty.
Good article, it is obvious that as we get older we (statistically) have a lesser chance of success in winning an Olympic medal or out twitching the best FPS gamers - but for writing and IT work - age doesn't come into it.
What does come into it (and why this bias continues) is that perhaps a highly percent of older IT workers are behind the times or irrelevant - some people simply stop wanting to learn and grow.
What does come into it (and why this bias continues) is that perhaps a highly percent of older IT workers are behind the times or irrelevant - some people simply stop wanting to learn and grow.
Define learning and growth. Do you mean being proficient with the flavour of the month shiny new language or framework; applying the latest syntax in a specific language, adding an additional domain of knowledge you can write code for or being up to date with any of the multitude of skills around writing code?
Often older IT people will recognise a dead-end idea that they have tried before which failed and are hesitant for good reason.
Often older IT people will recognise a dead-end idea that they have tried before which failed and are hesitant for good reason.
Haven’t met any that stops growing, what many do though is focus more on the business side and less on the coding, because it’s easier to get money that way. Starting freelancing with their own tax schemes, becoming a power point knight, short IT architect stints.
When you are young you want to dazzle people with your own projects, when you get old you want to have money enough that you get time to dazzle people.
But in the end we never really dazzle people like we did when coding young, because we want to make younglings to feel encouragement, especially before college.
When you are young you want to dazzle people with your own projects, when you get old you want to have money enough that you get time to dazzle people.
But in the end we never really dazzle people like we did when coding young, because we want to make younglings to feel encouragement, especially before college.
I think it's also because of family. When you're young, you might be single or childless - fresh out of college. At 35 you might have a kid or two and you want to save enough money to put them into a good school and retire early.
For writing breakthrough papers, age is not a major factor:
https://news.northeastern.edu/2016/11/03/new-study-success-c...
https://news.northeastern.edu/2016/11/03/new-study-success-c...
I think a bigger part of it is that older IT and developer types are less likely to live at the workplace and allow themselves to be taken advantage of.
They are more likely to have one of those pesky families that get in the way of absolute, total devotion to the company.
They might even be so "uncommitted" to the work that they go home by 6pm.
They are more likely to have one of those pesky families that get in the way of absolute, total devotion to the company.
They might even be so "uncommitted" to the work that they go home by 6pm.
Also, when some of the "growth" comes from learning the new, but not actually better way of doing something, it's understandable that older workers might be less enthused than people who haven't been around the block a few times already.
Ancient Greeks called the life period when one is about 40 "akme". It is a period of greatest mental skills (can't find it on English Wiki, but here is German: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akme).
The "I'm 30, so I'm to old" syndrome is a consequence of very natural social phenomenon - society wants one to be well defined and established, easy to predict.
The "I'm 30, so I'm to old" syndrome is a consequence of very natural social phenomenon - society wants one to be well defined and established, easy to predict.
Yes, Plato didn't think anyone should engage in philosophy, considered the most intellectually demanding pursuit, until at least 40 and having undergone a long holistic education and serving in the military.
What a good list.
Most Australians would tell you if you asked them that you can achieve something extraordinary, or begin something new after the age of 35. But I think people are just trying to say the right thing. They know it's true in their heads, but I am not sure that their hearts know.
I am under the age of 25, so well under 35, and I am hoping to live out this advice, and spend my early years learning to learn, and constantly try out new stuff. But there are very few role models that I can look to in my life who have really kicked off their work at 30 or 35. I suspect this is true for a lot of people (regardless of age). Grandmothers getting degrees is still a quaint, publishable news-story.
I would love to hear from any people in the hacker news crowd that have changed careers 'late,' or intentionally spent their early years taking career/skill risks.
Most Australians would tell you if you asked them that you can achieve something extraordinary, or begin something new after the age of 35. But I think people are just trying to say the right thing. They know it's true in their heads, but I am not sure that their hearts know.
I am under the age of 25, so well under 35, and I am hoping to live out this advice, and spend my early years learning to learn, and constantly try out new stuff. But there are very few role models that I can look to in my life who have really kicked off their work at 30 or 35. I suspect this is true for a lot of people (regardless of age). Grandmothers getting degrees is still a quaint, publishable news-story.
I would love to hear from any people in the hacker news crowd that have changed careers 'late,' or intentionally spent their early years taking career/skill risks.
I didn't do any of this intentionally. I studied psychology in undergrad and graduated the year of the great financial crisis. Also had a bad GPA, 3.0. I had lots of ideas but there was always a big skills gap between what I wanted to do and what I knew how to do (and what my degree said I could do). I am obsessed with fixing problems in medical decision making (back then it was specific to diagnosis, now I'm more general).
I fumbled for a few years before worming my way into a middle-ranked graduate department of Neuroscience. Learned how to work an MRI and how to hack scripts in Matlab. Realized I could think in maths/stats even though none of my transcripts suggested I could (my only undergrad math course was calculus, I took it twice, and the second time I got a 67). I went to a conference in 2012 and saw a Harvard Business Review article on big data in the airport on my way home. I thought to myself "no one is going to care about my MRI research but I bet I can become a data scientist without a PhD".
So I found a lab-tech job post-MSc for a bit and then I became a "research methods specialist" and worked in a research hospital for 4 years. I learned a lot about high-performance computing, the kinds of models used for pre-clinical trials, and methods development for clinical research. I ended up on a lot of papers. My CV now rivals many PhD grads I know.
Then through some networking and persistence, I find myself at the tail end of a professional MSc in computer science at a top-ranked machine learning institute. I have successfully survived both core CS coursework and graduate courses in reinforcement learning and deep learning. I'm currently working on multiple deep learning research projects and getting to know some really interesting people doing biomedical startups.
10 years ago I was living in my dad's basement, a psych grad who couldn't math and showed pretty much zero aptitude for these kinds of endeavors. I never would have believed that I would be in the kind of program I am in now. I'm only 32, and my story isn't done, but I'm sure if I make it onto any list, it will be one for people over the age of 35.
I fumbled for a few years before worming my way into a middle-ranked graduate department of Neuroscience. Learned how to work an MRI and how to hack scripts in Matlab. Realized I could think in maths/stats even though none of my transcripts suggested I could (my only undergrad math course was calculus, I took it twice, and the second time I got a 67). I went to a conference in 2012 and saw a Harvard Business Review article on big data in the airport on my way home. I thought to myself "no one is going to care about my MRI research but I bet I can become a data scientist without a PhD".
So I found a lab-tech job post-MSc for a bit and then I became a "research methods specialist" and worked in a research hospital for 4 years. I learned a lot about high-performance computing, the kinds of models used for pre-clinical trials, and methods development for clinical research. I ended up on a lot of papers. My CV now rivals many PhD grads I know.
Then through some networking and persistence, I find myself at the tail end of a professional MSc in computer science at a top-ranked machine learning institute. I have successfully survived both core CS coursework and graduate courses in reinforcement learning and deep learning. I'm currently working on multiple deep learning research projects and getting to know some really interesting people doing biomedical startups.
10 years ago I was living in my dad's basement, a psych grad who couldn't math and showed pretty much zero aptitude for these kinds of endeavors. I never would have believed that I would be in the kind of program I am in now. I'm only 32, and my story isn't done, but I'm sure if I make it onto any list, it will be one for people over the age of 35.
Oh god, I was hoping you'd say 42 or something. I'm 32 myself and you gave me some relief from my sense of urgency until you mentioned your age.
Great to see you being an ace though! I hope you keep moving forward.
Great to see you being an ace though! I hope you keep moving forward.
Thank you! I shouldn't have put a number on it... the real story is that all that happened over 10 years. I really don't think it has to do anything with age, just consistent effort over time. I was being constantly told that I didn't have what it takes to be in any technical field when I finished university.
This is a great story. It's interesting how someone can have no interest or aptitude in a subject, but then later in life revisit that subject and thrive in it. In college I struggled with my programming classes (did not enjoy them) and decided to go into finance with my Math degree. Later I fell into a programming role and loved it. 25 years later and I still enjoy being a software developer.
I think often you can be fooled into thinking you aren't interested in something because it isn't presented to you in the right way. I still feel this way about math... I am not a "math person" and I find the way mathematicians talk to each other very confusing. Hopefully the move towards digital pedagogy will also be a move to teach the same subjects multiple ways, depending on the individual learner's biases.
Totally agree. I was dropped into a C++ class in college with very little (even using a computer) experience. Later I was eased into web development. Totally different way to be introduced to the field.
Great story! Thanks for sharing. The older I get (33 now) the more I realise that keeping yourself moving forward, learning, experiencing new things, comes down to chance encounters with people and opportunities. We just have to get out there with a positive mindset and an interest in new things. Getting good and comfortable in a career early on can make that challenging.
"Luck favors the prepared" is one of my favorite expressions, and I feel like it applies to this. Chance encounters do create tons of opportunities , but you have to be prepared to take advantage of those opportunities.
Out of curiosity, had you done an undergraduate research project / thesis before getting into an MSc program? Also, what do you mean by a professional Masters? I'm still learning the jargon of academia. I'm sort of following a similar path, through dipping in and out of an undergrad CS degree now that I've sort of become disenchant with web dev. 27 now, but hoping to worm my way into deep learning in the Geospatial field or just some aspect of geo-spatial hopefully with some aspect of the work being field work or generally outside. I'm interested in having something sort of official like contributions to papers, and I'd like to put the deep intellectual interests and obsession with ideas to use. I used to have these with regard to frontend dev, but after re-inventing the same problem so many times, that's getting a little boring.
Like the rest of my story I got super lucky and I don't think it's a repeatable path. I had done a small "research project" for course credit with a professor, but I don't think it counts for much and it didn't go anywhere. The way I got into the MSc was by emailing every single psychology / neuro professor at a university looking for a summer volunteer position! I was taking non-degree coursework at one after being unemployed for a while in order to upgrade my CV enough to get into a program. Back then I think I was aiming to get into something clinical. A new prof. at the time asked to meet with me for the position and then suggested at the meeting that I do a MSc with him. I think he was having trouble recruiting because the rank of the school was not very high. Luckily, he was also super smart and taught me a tonne. That was a research MSc. The professional MSc I am in now is quite new has more emphasis on coursework and not on machine learning research. It's a way for the school to teach a lot more students about deep learning without professors needing to dedicate too many resources to individual student supervision. There is no expectation to publish or anything like that, although there are always ways to publish if you are interested.
If you want to get involved in research projects (which I do think helps you land more creative jobs) I would suggest working your hard-core software dev background when you pitch potential collaborators. You would be very surprised to see the quality of code coming out of some researchers because there is little incentive to be a good software engineer in academia. The normal way to participate in research is to be in a PhD program but there are many other ways so long as you can work closely with people who come from a more traditional research trajectory.
Are companies in geospatial or government aerospace groups hiring people with your skills? Might be a first step?
If you want to get involved in research projects (which I do think helps you land more creative jobs) I would suggest working your hard-core software dev background when you pitch potential collaborators. You would be very surprised to see the quality of code coming out of some researchers because there is little incentive to be a good software engineer in academia. The normal way to participate in research is to be in a PhD program but there are many other ways so long as you can work closely with people who come from a more traditional research trajectory.
Are companies in geospatial or government aerospace groups hiring people with your skills? Might be a first step?
How was the road of entering a CS Graduate program from a non CS undergrad? I majored outside of CS and have been mulling around whether to run for a CS masters or just return for a CS undergrad on the side.
If you can convince a CS prof at your target school that has pull that you can handle a CS degree, they can pull strings to get you in. Actually this was done for me to get me into the Neuroscience MSc as well (my undergrad was that lackluster). I was actually rejected formally from both programs before an internal memo written by said professor reversed those decisions.
At my school, I was required to take algos and data structures in addition to the program requirements. This was to make up for the fact that I wasn't already a CS grad. Way less time effort and money than a full CS degree! So maybe you can find a similar arrangement?
From my experience, if you're going to pay for more school, you should try to get a masters. A prof once gave me the same advice "it's more work (i.e., a BSc is typically 3-4 years) and in the end you will just have another bachelors". The nice thing about MSc programs is they tend to be more project-based and focus on higher-level concepts so you learn more useful / high-level stuff than in undergrad IMHO.
Good luck! There's always an alternate path :)
At my school, I was required to take algos and data structures in addition to the program requirements. This was to make up for the fact that I wasn't already a CS grad. Way less time effort and money than a full CS degree! So maybe you can find a similar arrangement?
From my experience, if you're going to pay for more school, you should try to get a masters. A prof once gave me the same advice "it's more work (i.e., a BSc is typically 3-4 years) and in the end you will just have another bachelors". The nice thing about MSc programs is they tend to be more project-based and focus on higher-level concepts so you learn more useful / high-level stuff than in undergrad IMHO.
Good luck! There's always an alternate path :)
Really? I look at all of the big, successful companies around and their founders were typically over 35 when they founded them. Silicon Valley's young-founder-billionaire thing is hugely atypical in the rest of the world (and hugely atypical in Silicon Valley too, but the few who've made it huge are so visible that people think they're the norm.)
I changed careers at 34 after working in food service and starting my own restaurant. I decided this "Internet" thing had legs and started teaching myself. Got a job where my boss realized how little I knew, and paired me up with someone who has become my best friend and mentor.
Before the switch, I was used to working insane hours, and I had little money (due the failed restaurant). So I was hungry, no family to support, and in a perfect situation to go for broke.
Today? I could never make the same changes. Supporting a family, and a wife with a career of her own. A mortgage, and retirement in a decade. All these things limit the amount of change you can (or are willing to) take. So I put my curiosity into hobbies etc.
Before the switch, I was used to working insane hours, and I had little money (due the failed restaurant). So I was hungry, no family to support, and in a perfect situation to go for broke.
Today? I could never make the same changes. Supporting a family, and a wife with a career of her own. A mortgage, and retirement in a decade. All these things limit the amount of change you can (or are willing to) take. So I put my curiosity into hobbies etc.
I'm only thirty, but my view is that my ability to succeed only grows as I get older as I have more world experience, knowledge and connections to pull from.
Also from Australia, and we are a pretty optimistic bunch in polite company. My opinion is that people are increasingly more likely to settle for the life they have already, so they don't try big things, not that they get less likely to succeed at them.
As someone else pointed out though, we aren't in the silicon valley rat race. We have a much less turbulent and ephemeral economy to work in. I think if you take on real problems you can see long term success here, it's just not going to be a billion dollar venture funded exit.
Also from Australia, and we are a pretty optimistic bunch in polite company. My opinion is that people are increasingly more likely to settle for the life they have already, so they don't try big things, not that they get less likely to succeed at them.
As someone else pointed out though, we aren't in the silicon valley rat race. We have a much less turbulent and ephemeral economy to work in. I think if you take on real problems you can see long term success here, it's just not going to be a billion dollar venture funded exit.
I would love to hear from any people in the hacker news crowd that have changed careers 'late,' or intentionally spent their early years taking career/skill risks.
What exactly are you hoping to hear? Because, among other things, I walked away from a National Merit Scholarship. I think I did the right thing and I think I'm doing important stuff, but the world still sees me as a big fat nobody.
So what exactly are you looking for? "Life advice"? Only to hear from people with some kind of substantial public recognition who got started late?
What exactly are you hoping to hear? Because, among other things, I walked away from a National Merit Scholarship. I think I did the right thing and I think I'm doing important stuff, but the world still sees me as a big fat nobody.
So what exactly are you looking for? "Life advice"? Only to hear from people with some kind of substantial public recognition who got started late?
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I recently read two works by a great Australian writer who didn't publish his first book until he was exactly 35, Gerald Murnane.
You'll like his work if you enjoy literary fiction with a formalist and philosophical bent. Fairly calm and airy.
You'll like his work if you enjoy literary fiction with a formalist and philosophical bent. Fairly calm and airy.
I don't know if i count since no one knows me (which is one of my goals), but i consider myself to be applicable since I've basically hit all my life goals (well, aside from being a writer which I'll start on now), and my explicit strategy was to focus on learning/upskilling over formal paths.
My degrees were in economics and arts, which I swapped to from CS explicitly because i wanted to learn things I didn't know, not get good grades on things I did. I worked security night shift during uni which let me read and study whatever I wanted while being paid for it.
From there I took an relatively unskilled level job doing order processing with a legal publishing firm. What i consider my first 'real' program was written there. We did all our processing through this crappy slow manual interface with manual data entry, menu selection, and second long pauses between menus and pages. I hypothesized you could map out each menu and form in the entire application via unique pixel patterns grabbed from each screen and wrote a program that could get from any place in the software to any other and knew where in the menu system it was. Then I wrote a simple spreadsheet interface with some simple memory (since I observed huge portions of our entry was the same data/orders from the same customers, so why do we re-enter the same details multiple times?). I hooked it all together and could thus spend the first hour or two of the day filling out the data spreadsheet: the program could then read the spreadsheet and essentially do my job for me. It new how to interface with my workstation, knew where it was, where to go for every order type, didn't get bored or make mistakes and entered everything infinitely faster than a human typist. I have a real soft spot for that program, watching it zoom the mouse around the screen and do everything automatically still makes me feel proud.
From there I moved to a performance manager job where I implemented algorithms to try to back-engineer government rating systems and use our sample of the market to offer predictions before government sources were published.
Then I moved into a research/policy position.
I used this to get work at the national stats bureau: where I volunteered to work on the hard programming problems no one else wanted. I then transferred into the analytics specialist section therein where I started my work and research on data linking.
Then I used that to move cities and got employed by a bank as an analytics specialist.
Then I left there and am now with my current employer.
I'm just over 35, live where I want to live, never stopped learning either programming or my other fields, haven't had to work for any job I consider unethical, have almost paid off my home, started a young family, and am gainfully employed with experience in philosophy, economics, stats, analytics, computer science, security, and publishing :p
I had failed grades and often barely handed in assignments for uni, and now I'm relatively confident I could run circles around most academics.
Anyone who says your best work happens in your 20s is an ignorant fool. Knowledge compounds. I was relatively smart during my 20s, but I was nothing compared to what I am now in my 30s.
I expect my 40s will be even better...
My degrees were in economics and arts, which I swapped to from CS explicitly because i wanted to learn things I didn't know, not get good grades on things I did. I worked security night shift during uni which let me read and study whatever I wanted while being paid for it.
From there I took an relatively unskilled level job doing order processing with a legal publishing firm. What i consider my first 'real' program was written there. We did all our processing through this crappy slow manual interface with manual data entry, menu selection, and second long pauses between menus and pages. I hypothesized you could map out each menu and form in the entire application via unique pixel patterns grabbed from each screen and wrote a program that could get from any place in the software to any other and knew where in the menu system it was. Then I wrote a simple spreadsheet interface with some simple memory (since I observed huge portions of our entry was the same data/orders from the same customers, so why do we re-enter the same details multiple times?). I hooked it all together and could thus spend the first hour or two of the day filling out the data spreadsheet: the program could then read the spreadsheet and essentially do my job for me. It new how to interface with my workstation, knew where it was, where to go for every order type, didn't get bored or make mistakes and entered everything infinitely faster than a human typist. I have a real soft spot for that program, watching it zoom the mouse around the screen and do everything automatically still makes me feel proud.
From there I moved to a performance manager job where I implemented algorithms to try to back-engineer government rating systems and use our sample of the market to offer predictions before government sources were published.
Then I moved into a research/policy position.
I used this to get work at the national stats bureau: where I volunteered to work on the hard programming problems no one else wanted. I then transferred into the analytics specialist section therein where I started my work and research on data linking.
Then I used that to move cities and got employed by a bank as an analytics specialist.
Then I left there and am now with my current employer.
I'm just over 35, live where I want to live, never stopped learning either programming or my other fields, haven't had to work for any job I consider unethical, have almost paid off my home, started a young family, and am gainfully employed with experience in philosophy, economics, stats, analytics, computer science, security, and publishing :p
I had failed grades and often barely handed in assignments for uni, and now I'm relatively confident I could run circles around most academics.
Anyone who says your best work happens in your 20s is an ignorant fool. Knowledge compounds. I was relatively smart during my 20s, but I was nothing compared to what I am now in my 30s.
I expect my 40s will be even better...
It takes about 7 years on average to achieve proficiency in a given domain. Usually 3-5 years of study and 2-4 years of real world experience. If you really want to you can have 5 or 6 different careers in life.
Are you 35 and want to become a doctor? An architect? An engineer? An actor? Go back to school and you’ll get there by 42.
The problem is that most people either have financial commitments or too much pride to go back to the start again.
Are you 35 and want to become a doctor? An architect? An engineer? An actor? Go back to school and you’ll get there by 42.
The problem is that most people either have financial commitments or too much pride to go back to the start again.
Ok, they wrote their magnum opus or the book that got them famous after 35, but it says nothing about all the writing they were probably doing before that. A lot of writers slave away in obscurity while holding down other jobs. Then they might publish that book which makes them famous.It does not mean they just woke up one day and wrote that book ( may happen in a few cases..). You may be writing for unknown journals, or may be writing but never have the contacts to get it published, or you may be writing, but never think your work is good enough to be read...
I'm starting my PhD in genetics later this month, and I'm 34. So, this is good news!
Good on you! I bailed out of. PhD at 32 and found a new career. You can always have a new start.
reminds me of this quora question and excellent answers
What do people in Silicon Valley plan to do once they are over 35 since most will neither make it big nor move up the management chain of command?
https://www.quora.com/What-do-people-in-Silicon-Valley-plan-...
What do people in Silicon Valley plan to do once they are over 35 since most will neither make it big nor move up the management chain of command?
https://www.quora.com/What-do-people-in-Silicon-Valley-plan-...
This is something I'm battling with right now. As I get older, it's more common to see people younger than me being more successful. When you are starting your career, you only see all the possibilities to fulfill your goals. As you age and don't get quite there, you start to question if you are good enough, and wonder if you'll ever reach your goals, or should just give up.
It takes a lot of discipline to keep the right state of mind.
It takes a lot of discipline to keep the right state of mind.
Just update your goals. Who says that one accomplishment is better than the other? You are not a quitter or a failure only because you did not complete a goal that was arbitrarily created by a younger you or someone else.
Surely some material success needs to be accomplished but it is proven that above a certain level the returns of it in term of happiness diminish.
You can also forget about goals that younger you imposed on you. I am sure that even younger you imposed even sillier goals that you just outgrew. Maybe you aspired to be the best in Counter-Strike, date the most popular girl/guy in high school or becoming a great PHP developer who works for Yahoo? Who knows but nobody cares anymore.
You can outgrow the current ones too.
Opportunities and aspirations come and go as we grow, age, get sick or well, poorer or richer. Don't stick to the old ones and explore the ones that are appropriate to your situation.
Surely some material success needs to be accomplished but it is proven that above a certain level the returns of it in term of happiness diminish.
You can also forget about goals that younger you imposed on you. I am sure that even younger you imposed even sillier goals that you just outgrew. Maybe you aspired to be the best in Counter-Strike, date the most popular girl/guy in high school or becoming a great PHP developer who works for Yahoo? Who knows but nobody cares anymore.
You can outgrow the current ones too.
Opportunities and aspirations come and go as we grow, age, get sick or well, poorer or richer. Don't stick to the old ones and explore the ones that are appropriate to your situation.
As someone going through this right now (turning 32 in October, eek) I've come to realize a few things that have helped.
"Good enough" is an all encompassing set of criteria. You can be the most brilliant person in the world, but if you are unable or unwilling to take the necessary risks to achieve X, then you re not good enough. If you're too risk taking, that's also not good enough. Everything plays into that.
Like a former F1 driver whose name I can't remember said in a podcast once: "Yeah I was good. I was really good. On my best days I was faster than Schumacher, Senna, Prost, and all of them" ... "So why weren't you champion?" ... "Well that's the thing. I was amazing on my good days. The real champions, the ones that make history, they don't have bad days or good days. They're _always_ at their best."
The other realization: You play the cards you've got, not the cards you wish you had. Wherever you are right now, whatever you've got in terms of skill, assets, connections, etc ... that's what you've got to work with. Focus on playing the hand you have the best way you can.
"Good enough" is an all encompassing set of criteria. You can be the most brilliant person in the world, but if you are unable or unwilling to take the necessary risks to achieve X, then you re not good enough. If you're too risk taking, that's also not good enough. Everything plays into that.
Like a former F1 driver whose name I can't remember said in a podcast once: "Yeah I was good. I was really good. On my best days I was faster than Schumacher, Senna, Prost, and all of them" ... "So why weren't you champion?" ... "Well that's the thing. I was amazing on my good days. The real champions, the ones that make history, they don't have bad days or good days. They're _always_ at their best."
The other realization: You play the cards you've got, not the cards you wish you had. Wherever you are right now, whatever you've got in terms of skill, assets, connections, etc ... that's what you've got to work with. Focus on playing the hand you have the best way you can.
Sure, but did any of them get started after the age of 47? Asking for ... um ... a friend.
Love this. People like to think they can't do anything as they get older. That mental state will be a self fulfilling prophecy!
seconded. thirded. this is great!
Exactly. I'm 45 and on my n-th startup attempt as a founder, after n-1 failures, where 5<n<10.
I'll see what lasts longer, me or my failures. :)
I'll see what lasts longer, me or my failures. :)
What are you working on? :)
Little too early to disclose the details, but it's in the eCommerce content marketing space currently dominated by the likes of BazaarVoice, PowerReviews ... >$5B TAM (for overall marketing automation space) and a CAGR of 15-20%.
Are you a domain expert in that space? How did you come up with the idea?
Not domain expert.
Personal experience, research, observations of the market dynamics, conversations with others who shared the pain led to identification of the problem space and corresponding hypothesis.
Borrowed elements of proposed solution from adjacent spaces.
Currently in pre-seed stage, so still a lot of work to do.
Borrowed elements of proposed solution from adjacent spaces.
Currently in pre-seed stage, so still a lot of work to do.
I’m graduating with a phd in deep learning in 3 months, trying to decide whether to join FAANG or do my own thing. What is the most valuable lesson you learned from your failures?
@p1esk replying to your question as reply to my own comment as for some reason I'm not seeing the "reply" link below your comment.
Unfortunately all failures have their own nuances. In some cases it was the issue with market dynamics, in others I think the idea itself was not good enough. I think we always underestimate the inertia of a market, healthcare and anything to do with government are prime examples of that. Of course I'm sure I also lack something but I try to make it up with tenacity. Disclosure, some of the attempts were side projects while I was willing to full time, which, while financially better, had its own issues.
Regarding your situation, I'll say take a look at two things, your financial situation and what idea you have.
Not sure if that's what you're looking for but I'd be happy to shoot you an email to chat offline.
Unfortunately all failures have their own nuances. In some cases it was the issue with market dynamics, in others I think the idea itself was not good enough. I think we always underestimate the inertia of a market, healthcare and anything to do with government are prime examples of that. Of course I'm sure I also lack something but I try to make it up with tenacity. Disclosure, some of the attempts were side projects while I was willing to full time, which, while financially better, had its own issues.
Regarding your situation, I'll say take a look at two things, your financial situation and what idea you have.
Not sure if that's what you're looking for but I'd be happy to shoot you an email to chat offline.
Thanks. Unfortunately I don’t have any good ideas at the moment. And what’s even worse I don’t see anyone around me I could partner up with.
Do people really think this way, besides young people and tech managers?
I'm over 35 and my productivity and capacity to learn new things has only continued to grow over time.
It's true that many exceptional artifacts have been produced by people when they're relatively young. I think this is more a byproduct of ignorance (i.e., seeing the world with a fresh pair of eyes). But as this list shows, maybe age isn't the critical factor -- maybe it's about diving into something new and unfamiliar.
I'm over 35 and my productivity and capacity to learn new things has only continued to grow over time.
It's true that many exceptional artifacts have been produced by people when they're relatively young. I think this is more a byproduct of ignorance (i.e., seeing the world with a fresh pair of eyes). But as this list shows, maybe age isn't the critical factor -- maybe it's about diving into something new and unfamiliar.
I completely concur. I've been programming since I was a teenager, practically grew up with computers, and I'm 50 now.
I'm still just as productive as I was in my 20's, but now I've got decades more experience than my peers and can see things that the hubris and arrogance of youth never let me see before - like, how important it is to be able to work with others, not hold onto projects selfishly .. how important it is to check oneself before one wrecks oneself, and so on.
If I had a way, there'd be so much advice I'd give to my younger self...
I'm still just as productive as I was in my 20's, but now I've got decades more experience than my peers and can see things that the hubris and arrogance of youth never let me see before - like, how important it is to be able to work with others, not hold onto projects selfishly .. how important it is to check oneself before one wrecks oneself, and so on.
If I had a way, there'd be so much advice I'd give to my younger self...
I think maybe it's possible that given a very smart programmer with 1-5 years experience, the value of not having had time to learn the wrong way of doing things far outweighs the value of another 10 or 20 years experience. A lot of our 'best practices' seem curiously tailored toward keeping mediocre developers in check and producing consistent rather than extraordinary results.
Maybe our industry just grinds the greatness out of you by 25 or 30 unless you actively fight it.
Maybe our industry just grinds the greatness out of you by 25 or 30 unless you actively fight it.
I think if someone's better with 5 years' experience than 20 years' experience then they have a very low skill ceiling for the task at hand.
Part of that 20 years' experience, of course, is learning to ignore 'best practices' that actually aren't 'best' at all (or more likely, are 'best' for some situation you're not actually in).
Part of that 20 years' experience, of course, is learning to ignore 'best practices' that actually aren't 'best' at all (or more likely, are 'best' for some situation you're not actually in).
> Maybe our industry just grinds the greatness out of you by 25 or 30 unless you actively fight it.
Maybe people just get tired of churning out CRUD apps after 10 years and want to do something else. A lot of stuff loses its charm after you see behind the curtain.
Maybe people just get tired of churning out CRUD apps after 10 years and want to do something else. A lot of stuff loses its charm after you see behind the curtain.
There’s that saying, something about 10 years of experience vs 10 years of doing the same thing (‘1 year of experience 10 times’ or something like that).
I also remember someone bringing up a good point (it might have been here or something I watched, I can’t remember) that software engineers don’t actually get that many ‘attempts’ at doing a full software system from scratch. How often does the average software engineer get to design a system from requirements, build a system from scratch, take it through production and then into maintenance in that length of time?
I also remember someone bringing up a good point (it might have been here or something I watched, I can’t remember) that software engineers don’t actually get that many ‘attempts’ at doing a full software system from scratch. How often does the average software engineer get to design a system from requirements, build a system from scratch, take it through production and then into maintenance in that length of time?
What do you think is an example of such a "best practice"?
I mean the classic Java > Lisp decision that Paul Graham is always talking about surely fits the bill.
There are a lot of brilliant programs or games that were created by people with little programming experience. While the code may be of bad quality, the idea is so good that it becomes very successful.
I’ve met some people with this mentality, and it’s really kind of heartbreaking, because it’s never too late, especially not at 35. Most people who are 35 haven’t even lived half their life, in some countries you’re only half-way to retirement age. I think ageism is a growing problem though, and I’m not sure why. This is anecdotal, but I’ve been the examiner for a quite a lot of young CS students and it’s extremely rare to meet one who isn’t at least five years from being truly useful. It happens of course, but in general, I would much rather hire someone older and more experienced. Yet there is this idea that young developers are better, not every where, but a lot of places. One of the major IT companies in Denmark (KMD) was recently caught having a hiring practice of only hiring people below 36. It’s illegal, but what’s really interesting is that they’ve done this for a decade, and they’re now one of the most struggling major IT companies with heaps of scandals, dataleaks and delays. I know you can’t rightly blame that on their practice of hiring young people, it could be happening for lots of reasons, and their management is probably questionable considering how their hiring practices break the law. Hiring young didn’t help them avoid their troubles though.
To get back on track though, I’ve know people who switched careers as they got older and excelled where they ended up. My mother in law got her PHD after 55, and is currently using it vividly to influence and teach around the country. She was a high-school teacher for 20 years before she got into research. If you look beyond anecdotes though, research has shown that the most successful company founders are 40-49[1]. I’m sure a lot of those people have been trying since they were in their 20ies. As I’ve said I think experience is usually an advantage, but that doesn’t mean it’s a requirement. I don’t think it’s ever too late to go for it, I mean, you probably won’t win the Tour de France in your 50ies, but you don’t have to be successful. There are a few Danish authors who are successful that started late, that you’ve never heard of because they aren’t successful enough to make it on a list like this. They make a living doing what they love though.
[1] https://hbr.org/2018/07/research-the-average-age-of-a-succes...
To get back on track though, I’ve know people who switched careers as they got older and excelled where they ended up. My mother in law got her PHD after 55, and is currently using it vividly to influence and teach around the country. She was a high-school teacher for 20 years before she got into research. If you look beyond anecdotes though, research has shown that the most successful company founders are 40-49[1]. I’m sure a lot of those people have been trying since they were in their 20ies. As I’ve said I think experience is usually an advantage, but that doesn’t mean it’s a requirement. I don’t think it’s ever too late to go for it, I mean, you probably won’t win the Tour de France in your 50ies, but you don’t have to be successful. There are a few Danish authors who are successful that started late, that you’ve never heard of because they aren’t successful enough to make it on a list like this. They make a living doing what they love though.
[1] https://hbr.org/2018/07/research-the-average-age-of-a-succes...
If anyone is reading this in dread, there is a recent book that addresses this:
https://www.latebloomer.com
I have no connections to the book. Just recently came across it and it addresses many of the topics in this thread.
"We live in a society where kids and parents are obsessed with early achievement, from getting perfect scores on SATs to getting into Ivy League colleges to landing an amazing job at Google or Facebook–or even better, creating a startup with the potential to be the next Google or Facebook or Uber. We see software coders becoming millionaires or even billionaires before age 30 and feel we are failing if we are not one of them.
But there is good news. A lot of us–most of us–do not explode out of the gates in life. That was true for author Rich Karlgaard, who had a mediocre academic career at Stanford (which he got into by a fluke), and after graduating, worked as a dishwasher, night watchman, and typing temp before finally finding the inner motivation and drive that ultimately led him to start up a high-tech magazine in Silicon Valley, and eventually to become the publisher of Forbes magazine. There is a scientific explanation for why so many of us bloom later in life. The executive function of our brains don’t mature until age 25–and later for some. In fact, our brain’s capabilities peak at different ages. We actually enjoy multiple periods of blooming in our lives.
Based on several years of research, personal experience, and interviews with neuroscientists and psychologists, and countless people at different stages of their careers, Late Bloomers reveals how and when we achieve full potential–and why an algorithmic acuity in math is such an anomaly in terms of career success."
https://www.latebloomer.com
I have no connections to the book. Just recently came across it and it addresses many of the topics in this thread.
"We live in a society where kids and parents are obsessed with early achievement, from getting perfect scores on SATs to getting into Ivy League colleges to landing an amazing job at Google or Facebook–or even better, creating a startup with the potential to be the next Google or Facebook or Uber. We see software coders becoming millionaires or even billionaires before age 30 and feel we are failing if we are not one of them.
But there is good news. A lot of us–most of us–do not explode out of the gates in life. That was true for author Rich Karlgaard, who had a mediocre academic career at Stanford (which he got into by a fluke), and after graduating, worked as a dishwasher, night watchman, and typing temp before finally finding the inner motivation and drive that ultimately led him to start up a high-tech magazine in Silicon Valley, and eventually to become the publisher of Forbes magazine. There is a scientific explanation for why so many of us bloom later in life. The executive function of our brains don’t mature until age 25–and later for some. In fact, our brain’s capabilities peak at different ages. We actually enjoy multiple periods of blooming in our lives.
Based on several years of research, personal experience, and interviews with neuroscientists and psychologists, and countless people at different stages of their careers, Late Bloomers reveals how and when we achieve full potential–and why an algorithmic acuity in math is such an anomaly in terms of career success."
I read this description, `These writers got their start after age 35—there’s still hope for you`, and I was like man this is amazing.
But, when these people we're mentioned to have published after 35, it kinda tells me that these people have been writing for quite some time
Another list that I would like to see is people, who just started writing extensively after 35 and getting published after 35 : )
But, when these people we're mentioned to have published after 35, it kinda tells me that these people have been writing for quite some time
Another list that I would like to see is people, who just started writing extensively after 35 and getting published after 35 : )
Here's one: Mary Wesley. Only turned to writing in her late 50s. Ten bestsellers after 70. Took about a dozen years to get her first novel published, which finally was aged 71: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Wesley
As long as you're breathing and can do the thing you want to do, your age doesn't matter. Go do what you want to do.
It really depends on the medium. Writers can continually improve and refine their skillset throughout their lives and that seems to be the case throughout history. Whereas musicians seem to either lose inspiration or interest as they get older, maybe it's just a medium that benefits a lot from the enthusiasm and discovery of youth.
That being said, I do suspect there will be a much greater number of people emerging at older ages over the next few decades as more people opt to not go down the typical path of obligations and more flexible work situations allow for more time to focus on passions (for those who can afford to not be working all the time)
That being said, I do suspect there will be a much greater number of people emerging at older ages over the next few decades as more people opt to not go down the typical path of obligations and more flexible work situations allow for more time to focus on passions (for those who can afford to not be working all the time)
A famous writer once said that no one should write a book before 40. So it's not a totally crazy idea.
Another famous writer said writers should write as much as they can, so the idea is crazy once more.
That’s a pretty dumb thing to say given all the excellent books written by younger people.
Outliers. Most of the books written by younger people who have no experience in life will sound immature to anyone above their age.
How many of those great books written by over 40yo authors had never written books before that age allowing them to develop their writing skills?
Goodness, if only someone compiled an article's worth of authors who only first got published after 35. Maybe around 35 of them would be enough to answer your question.
Writing books is how you get good at writing books, and young people read books too, so it's no loss if an older reader feels it's immature. Perhaps in their wisdom, the older reader could find some empathy for the younger writers current lens that they are writing through.
Good writers are outliers, most books will sound immature. When the author's gatekeeping would get rid of much of Shakespeare's output, maybe it's too much?
I like this but I also wish they'd do a "75 over 75" or a "90 over 90" - I think those has more longer term value.
William Gaddis published his first novel (Recognitions) with 33, his next (JR) with 53, his third (Carpenter's Gothic) with 63, his fourth (A Frolic of His Own) with 72, and his fifth and last (Agapē Agape) with 80.
That's it.
He was one of the world best novelists. Good things need time. Many even thought he is Thomas Pynchon, but his style is imho much better than Pynchon's. No comparison.
He was one of the world best novelists. Good things need time. Many even thought he is Thomas Pynchon, but his style is imho much better than Pynchon's. No comparison.
A very odd list.
Yes, Lampedusa had been dead for a year when his book was published--but how old was he when he wrote it? U.S. Grant was otherwise occupied for much of the time before he began his memoir, wasn't he? Burgess's Little Wilson and Big God shows that he did quite a bit of writing before he got Time for a Tiger published.
Yes, Lampedusa had been dead for a year when his book was published--but how old was he when he wrote it? U.S. Grant was otherwise occupied for much of the time before he began his memoir, wasn't he? Burgess's Little Wilson and Big God shows that he did quite a bit of writing before he got Time for a Tiger published.
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Strange nobody mentions the value of domain knowledge. My opinion is that there's little difference between young and old developers, but a difference in their domain knowledge. Valued software developers understand not only software but also their problem domain.
I find that I like learning and writing at 35+.
I didn't even start making technical video courses until I was 35 which involved writing close to 1 million words in a few years. That would be roughly 4,000 pages of content in book form.
Come to think of it, 35 is when I started writing a blog too.
I didn't even start making technical video courses until I was 35 which involved writing close to 1 million words in a few years. That would be roughly 4,000 pages of content in book form.
Come to think of it, 35 is when I started writing a blog too.
This is just bizarre. A collection of contemporary nobodies and actually famous authors who happen to be over 35. We're not talking mathematicians here or sprinters; these are (mostly) novelists. Of course there are a lot of them over 35.
Alister MacLeod wasn't published until he was forty and didn't publish the fabulous novel "No Great Mischief" until he was 63.
I've found a bug:
"These writers got their start after age 35"
"crop of “Best 35 Writers Under 35,” "
What about the actual 35 year olds?
"These writers got their start after age 35"
"crop of “Best 35 Writers Under 35,” "
What about the actual 35 year olds?
I'm turning 28 this month and I feel like I'm quite far ahead compared to my peers, yet feel like I'm absolutely still fumbling through life. And when speaking to friends older than me, the majority seem to still be fumbling through as well.
Every rotation around the sun my opinion is solidified that we're all just wingin' it, no matter the age and success can happen whenever.