Airbnb’s loss nearly doubles in fourth quarter, before virus(bloomberg.com)
bloomberg.com
Airbnb’s loss nearly doubles in fourth quarter, before virus
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-12/airbnb-s-loss-nearly-doubles-in-fourth-quarter-before-virus-hit
223 comments
That’s basically what I’m doing, except with a 3 unit building in Michigan. In an average month, the two AirBnB units bring in 3-4x the mortgage in revenue. Not enough to retire of course, but it’s a nice side hustle.
That being said, our bookings been hit pretty hard by the coronavirus. We’ve hade multiple cancellations recently, and the month of April is basically wide open. We usually have an occupancy rate for 85%. I think we’ll be lucky to have 50% of the next couple months.
That being said, our bookings been hit pretty hard by the coronavirus. We’ve hade multiple cancellations recently, and the month of April is basically wide open. We usually have an occupancy rate for 85%. I think we’ll be lucky to have 50% of the next couple months.
Paying off two dwellings at little effort is a nice "side hustle". No wonder nobody in the west is working! Meanwhile the Fed pumps more money to protect banks from rentiers blowing up, while taxes go unpaid and hospitals are underfunded.
Why are you mad about buildings being used at over 85% occupancy on average?
Short term rentals to tourists isn't occupancy, it's occupation. Sorry for the hyperbole I just thought that was good wordplay.
These rentals drive up rents for the people in the community and remove housing stock from the market, making it more expensive and less likely for people to purchase their home and build equity. Rent is non recoverable unlike a mortgage, even if you ultimately take a loss.
Flooding the housing market with units for sale at a bargain would be great for common people trying to build wealth.
These rentals drive up rents for the people in the community and remove housing stock from the market, making it more expensive and less likely for people to purchase their home and build equity. Rent is non recoverable unlike a mortgage, even if you ultimately take a loss.
Flooding the housing market with units for sale at a bargain would be great for common people trying to build wealth.
Seeing housing as a vehicle for wealth building is what leads to policies that increase or maintain housing prices. People don't need to put their money in to housing to build equity, they can just build equity. You know, save. Put it in diversified assets not chuck it all in to one asset and then leverage debt to chuck even more in to that asset.
Home ownership is how the system keeps the common man down. It should absolutely not be championed in his favour.
Home ownership is how the system keeps the common man down. It should absolutely not be championed in his favour.
As a home buyer you aren't making the choice between a diversified set of assets without leverage and one highly leveraged asset. You're spending money for another month of shelter while making the decision to keep it when you've paid for it long enough.
A lot of people would love to pump their savings into a diverse portfolio with little debt. Unfortunately we still have to pay rent. Personally if I do the math on it, putting savings into equities to save up for a 20% down payment on a mortgage is by far the most sound plan I can have because it optimizes my returns for my income.
And even without talking about returns, in terms of utility I don't want to raise a family in my expensive and tiny apartment - basically I don't want to save up so I can buy a nice house when I retire, I want to buy a nice house to build my life in then sell it when I retire. You've got the incentives completely flipped in my opinion.
A lot of people would love to pump their savings into a diverse portfolio with little debt. Unfortunately we still have to pay rent. Personally if I do the math on it, putting savings into equities to save up for a 20% down payment on a mortgage is by far the most sound plan I can have because it optimizes my returns for my income.
And even without talking about returns, in terms of utility I don't want to raise a family in my expensive and tiny apartment - basically I don't want to save up so I can buy a nice house when I retire, I want to buy a nice house to build my life in then sell it when I retire. You've got the incentives completely flipped in my opinion.
> People don't need to put their money in to housing to build equity, they can just build equity. You know, save. Put it in diversified assets not chuck it all in to one asset and then leverage debt to chuck even more in to that asset.
On paper yes. In practice no. Because the common man will buy a new car, or order some trinket from Amazon, or some other splurge.
> Home ownership is how the system keeps the common man down. It should absolutely not be championed in his favour.
Home ownership forces the common man to save because he knows he’ll be kicked to the curb if he doesn’t pay the mortgage.
If people treated their retirement savings like a true mortgage, e.g. putting it before all other monthly expenses, then yes it’d be possible. But they won’t.
On paper yes. In practice no. Because the common man will buy a new car, or order some trinket from Amazon, or some other splurge.
> Home ownership is how the system keeps the common man down. It should absolutely not be championed in his favour.
Home ownership forces the common man to save because he knows he’ll be kicked to the curb if he doesn’t pay the mortgage.
If people treated their retirement savings like a true mortgage, e.g. putting it before all other monthly expenses, then yes it’d be possible. But they won’t.
Shouldn't the increased tourism be a net win for the local economy though?
I agree its unfortunate if airbnb units increase rents, even a small amount. Finding good data isn't all that easy, but this study [0] from last year suggests airbnb was responsible for about 20% of total rent increase amounts in the areas studied. But, ignoring other potentially beneficial effects is one sided - if tourism was always bad, people should also be against building or operating hotels that could be apartments instead.
[0] https://phys.org/news/2019-08-airbnb-affect-rents-housing-pr...
I agree its unfortunate if airbnb units increase rents, even a small amount. Finding good data isn't all that easy, but this study [0] from last year suggests airbnb was responsible for about 20% of total rent increase amounts in the areas studied. But, ignoring other potentially beneficial effects is one sided - if tourism was always bad, people should also be against building or operating hotels that could be apartments instead.
[0] https://phys.org/news/2019-08-airbnb-affect-rents-housing-pr...
Here is a report into the negative effects of airbnb.
https://upgo.lab.mcgill.ca/publication/short-term-cities/sho...
Here is the small pox rash over Montreal:
http://insideairbnb.com/montreal/?neighbourhood=C%C3%B4te-de...
Repeated ad-infinitum across the globe by a company that figured out:
1. how to put pictures on web sites
2. regulatory arbitrage of residential housing
https://upgo.lab.mcgill.ca/publication/short-term-cities/sho...
Here is the small pox rash over Montreal:
http://insideairbnb.com/montreal/?neighbourhood=C%C3%B4te-de...
Repeated ad-infinitum across the globe by a company that figured out:
1. how to put pictures on web sites
2. regulatory arbitrage of residential housing
And they should build wealth by saving their surplus value, which means adding value. If they buy land at a reasonable price they avoid paying tax to bankers via interest.
Create wealth instead of appropriating it and everyone benefits!
Create wealth instead of appropriating it and everyone benefits!
It only drives up rents if the dipshits in charge refuse to build housing in response to demand.
Because they are breaking the law by violating zoning codes which we put there for a reason.
Because residential buildings were built to be homes, not effort free income streams for rentiers.
I suppose you are against any sort of rental property then, right?
A short term rental isn't a rental property. It's effectively a hotel.
From the perspective of "residential buildings were built to be homes", what is the effective difference?
Looking at just the physical building, not much.
> rough part of Toronto that was still pretty close to downtown
It's like those SROs in the TL where cheap tourists are thrilled to be close to things and think it will be like a hostel. No.
It's like those SROs in the TL where cheap tourists are thrilled to be close to things and think it will be like a hostel. No.
amiga_500(3)
I've had bad experiences with multiple Airbnbs including:
- showing up at night with the key not in the agreed location, and not being able to contact the owner until the next day
- showing up and someone else was already in the unit
- a webcam was plugged in and placed on the bedside table with no warning
- conditions in the unit were significantly worse than those shown in the photos
Airbnb cheats with bad reviews, so their properties look more attractive.
I came to a rental apartment which was trashed and uninhabitable and left it after a tiring few hours on the phone with Airbnb to convince them not to charge me and finding a place to stay (hotel) in the meantime (They also tried to find a 'suitable' replacement but nothing was comparable).
The host left me a negative review complaining 'I didn't want to vacate the apartment' (!). I was shocked that the host received invitation to write a review on a guest who hasn't stayed.
After numerous emails with Airbnb they confirmed that the host is able to leave reviews in all cases, as well as a guest, but they deliberately didn't e-mail me an invitation. They claimed they did, but after further investigations I found a proof this was deliberate omittance.
I came to a rental apartment which was trashed and uninhabitable and left it after a tiring few hours on the phone with Airbnb to convince them not to charge me and finding a place to stay (hotel) in the meantime (They also tried to find a 'suitable' replacement but nothing was comparable).
The host left me a negative review complaining 'I didn't want to vacate the apartment' (!). I was shocked that the host received invitation to write a review on a guest who hasn't stayed.
After numerous emails with Airbnb they confirmed that the host is able to leave reviews in all cases, as well as a guest, but they deliberately didn't e-mail me an invitation. They claimed they did, but after further investigations I found a proof this was deliberate omittance.
I had an experience where an Airbnb host canceled on me at the last minute because they "forgot" they had double-booked the apartment on a competing service. I was unable to leave a bad review because I had not stayed in the apartment. I contacted Airbnb and they confirmed that this is their policy. They claimed an automated message would appear on the listing indicating the host's cancellation -- but it never did.
A company that makes all its money on a regulatory loophole didn't care? I'm surprised!
I do see these “automated reviews” left all the time in properties I’m looking to stay at. In this part of the world it’s quite common for that sort of accident to happen.
Accident? More like deliberate fraud
How did you find the proof? Its interesting
Oh cool, I've:
- Had cockroaches and rats scurrying around one my places.
- Another place completely flooded and all the electrical sockets shorted out during a rain storm.
- My host threatened me over WhatsApp because I left a bad review. I showed AirBnB the chat logs and they said they would so something but didn't.
I've stopped using AirBnb.
- Had cockroaches and rats scurrying around one my places.
- Another place completely flooded and all the electrical sockets shorted out during a rain storm.
- My host threatened me over WhatsApp because I left a bad review. I showed AirBnB the chat logs and they said they would so something but didn't.
I've stopped using AirBnb.
This is, of course, the whole point of consumer protection.
The trend of all these "regulation arbitrage" startups seems to be to show consumers why the regulation existed in the first place.
The trend of all these "regulation arbitrage" startups seems to be to show consumers why the regulation existed in the first place.
The problem really seems to be in the nature of the platform. What a market needs to address issues like this is accurate reviews (i.e. informed consumers), but here we have a platform which both maintains the reviewing system and profits when listings are filled -- a clear conflict of interest.
This really stems from the regulations on payment processors. In theory there should be the digital equivalent of cash, where the buyer can easily and directly pay the seller without any third party middle man in between them imposing conditions and taking a cut.
But since regulatory requirements make processing payments, to use the technical term, a giant pain in the butt, it takes a sizeable bureaucracy to do it. Then you get a perverse incentive to have the company that handles listings and reviews also do the payment processing -- and get a cut of every transaction -- which is what creates this conflict of interest. The company whose business is reviews should not be turning a profit from filling listings, or they won't want bad reviews even when they're deserved, and then you don't have accurate reviews.
This really stems from the regulations on payment processors. In theory there should be the digital equivalent of cash, where the buyer can easily and directly pay the seller without any third party middle man in between them imposing conditions and taking a cut.
But since regulatory requirements make processing payments, to use the technical term, a giant pain in the butt, it takes a sizeable bureaucracy to do it. Then you get a perverse incentive to have the company that handles listings and reviews also do the payment processing -- and get a cut of every transaction -- which is what creates this conflict of interest. The company whose business is reviews should not be turning a profit from filling listings, or they won't want bad reviews even when they're deserved, and then you don't have accurate reviews.
Well except Uber/Lyft were great examples of why taxi cabs absolutely shouldn’t have had any protection.
As a reminder, the code block formatting you used is only supposed to be used for code. It renders any text of moderate length extremely difficult to read on mobile.
Glad I wasn't the only one. I was an early adopter of AirBnB, but had multiple bad experiences in recent years. The fact AirBnB refused to do anything about it ensured I would never use the service again. Rather pay a little more for VRBO or get a hotel.
I always like to point people to this site whenever AirBnB gets discussed:
https://www.airbnbhell.com
I also had a couple bad experiences with AirBnb years ago and am much more cautious and lean towards a regular hotel more often - despite yearning for the old Bed-n-Breakfast concept.
https://www.airbnbhell.com
I also had a couple bad experiences with AirBnb years ago and am much more cautious and lean towards a regular hotel more often - despite yearning for the old Bed-n-Breakfast concept.
AirBnB has been my de-facto landlord for about half of the last 18 months, all over the world. I've had two sub-par experiences (both in London fwiw) and one really-actually-bad one that nearly turned into a fistfight with the "host", who was illegally renting the place and furious that I, quite reasonably imho, contacted the condo desk to be let into the space.
AirBnB gave me a refund and a 10% off coupon for that last one. Overall I've been happy with it; must just be luck.
Nice to have my own apartment again though. The nomad life is fun, I just wanted a home after awhile.
AirBnB gave me a refund and a 10% off coupon for that last one. Overall I've been happy with it; must just be luck.
Nice to have my own apartment again though. The nomad life is fun, I just wanted a home after awhile.
> Airbnb needs to make some real changes or they will lose further trust among customers.
On the other hand I only stay at Airbnbs when I travel, and have been for as long as I can remember, and I've never had these issues.
My biggest issue is that they lie about the prices per night.
On the other hand I only stay at Airbnbs when I travel, and have been for as long as I can remember, and I've never had these issues.
My biggest issue is that they lie about the prices per night.
Same here - over time the positive surprises at Airbnb stays are becoming rarer.
More fool you for trying to save money in an unregulated sector.
Yup I'm utterly fed up with AirBnb and won't consider using them again.
And then you give a bad review and those places lose their listing?
Not sure what you want to do? Pay more so that Airbnb reviews them for you? Are you really up for paying old hotel prices again?
Not sure what you want to do? Pay more so that Airbnb reviews them for you? Are you really up for paying old hotel prices again?
Last few times I have gone on there, the prices have not been cheap like they used to be. There's always a $50-100 charge for cleaning, and some other bullshit fees in there too. Of course those fees don't show up when you're searching the listings.
> And then you give a bad review and those places lose their listing?
1. AirBnB doesn't care about adjudicating these disputes, so the host won't actually lose their listing.
2. And if the stars align, and enough people get ripped off, and AirBnB actually takes action against the host, they'll just re-open under a new listing 5 minutes later.
1. AirBnB doesn't care about adjudicating these disputes, so the host won't actually lose their listing.
2. And if the stars align, and enough people get ripped off, and AirBnB actually takes action against the host, they'll just re-open under a new listing 5 minutes later.
AirBnB failed. I don't even check it out anymore when I travel because a hotel typically costs about the same due to the fees charged by the hosts. I would choose a hotel over AirBnB until the price difference is 15-20% lower in favor of AirBnB because there are too many unknowns with AirBnB and the novelty has worn off entirely. Plus since so many listings are owned by some company or person renting out multiple locations, whats the difference any more?
AirBnB didn't fail. It has some work to do with managing fees, but overall, it provides a great service for people wanting a better or different experience than traditional hotels AND it's provide hosts with additional income at the same time. I much rather give my money to people needing extra savings than big business hotel chains.
I always look at Airbnb first when traveling because I value options like a kitchen where I can cook my own meals, a washer and dryer where I can wash my clothes, and a sofa to relax on.
I always look at Airbnb first when traveling because I value options like a kitchen where I can cook my own meals, a washer and dryer where I can wash my clothes, and a sofa to relax on.
What AirBnB has over hotels is locations inside neighborhoods. Take Montreal for example, the hotels are clustered downtown, which is fine if that's what you're looking for. But by staying in an AirBnB you get a local experience, in a local neighborhood. It's like this all over the world.
As far as I know the locals in most places despise the train of strangers who make noise late near their house/building and hope they aren't people with bad intentions.
Sleeping in an Airbnb is no more local than a hotel except hotels can't get zoning in those neighborhoods and wouldn't get permits for fire safety with those buildings.
Sleeping in an Airbnb is no more local than a hotel except hotels can't get zoning in those neighborhoods and wouldn't get permits for fire safety with those buildings.
This is exactly what’s terrible about Airbnb. A listing in a residential neighborhood creates negative externalities on that community.
I've found the big advantage to be for longer stays. You can get almost half off which, while more expensive than rent, is considerably less than a hotel stay and allows me to live somewhere with a kitchen etc. rather than in a hotel.
I use both hotels and Airbnbs a lot. Price difference I noticed really depends on the location and also changes over time. Also depends on how many people are traveling in the group and duration of stay.
For example we were down in LA last month and picked a hotel for the night because the prices were about the same. However in Bangkok late last year staying at an Airbnb apartment was significantly cheaper than a hotel (roughly 1/3 the cost for the duration).
For example we were down in LA last month and picked a hotel for the night because the prices were about the same. However in Bangkok late last year staying at an Airbnb apartment was significantly cheaper than a hotel (roughly 1/3 the cost for the duration).
That’s strange because Bangkok hotels are in general very affordable, and the comfort of a 3 star hotel should match most Airbnb’s. On the other hand, I’ve never done an Airbnb in Thailand before.
I was mostly comparing against 4 star hotels in the same locations, relatively central and close to transit. They were typically around the ~$80 range. Add in taxes etc and you're looking at ~$100 per night. Airbnbs in luxury condos with some discounts (early bird, longer stay) you can get for ~$40 per night. So not quite 1/3 I guess.
EDIT: Luxury condos in Bangkok I find to be very nice. Last one I stayed at had gym, roof top infinity pool, movie theatre, library etc. And it was a few minutes to the MRT.
EDIT: Luxury condos in Bangkok I find to be very nice. Last one I stayed at had gym, roof top infinity pool, movie theatre, library etc. And it was a few minutes to the MRT.
AirBnB didn't fail from my point of view. I travel exclusively with AirBnBs, even for work. Whenever we travel with friends, we use AirBnB as well. It pretty much completely replaced hotels for me.
I have to say though that I hate that they lie about the price/night.
I have to say though that I hate that they lie about the price/night.
I always see this view about hotels being cheaper but this has never been the case for me. I use Airbnbs all the time because they are cheaper (though I do like hotels better in a lot of cases). For example I am planning a road trip through CA, NV, UT, AZ and not once has a hotel room been cheaper than an Airbnb.
Also the case in Australia where I live, the hotels are super expensive, easily > 150 a night for pretty low level.
Also the case in Australia where I live, the hotels are super expensive, easily > 150 a night for pretty low level.
At this point, I'm too afraid of using airbnb and having to check for cameras. At least in a hotel, the rooms are barren and easy to take a look around. Plus if one person finds a camera, the whole hotel's name is tainted.
In Croatia and a few other places, there are a lot of fake Airbnb listings. You can instant book them but they are not available and the host never answers. I once was stranded in a really dark and empty area of town because of this. The host provided a fake number even...
These fake hosts are still active, I can see the green dot indicating they are online if I look into the chat logs.
Airbnb did not pay for the hotel I had to book instead. I also couldn't use the meagre reimbursement I got on top of the full refund (at least...) because it was only valid for a month and I wasn't travelling at that time.
I still like the privacy and cooking my own food, but sometimes it's really terrible.
These fake hosts are still active, I can see the green dot indicating they are online if I look into the chat logs.
Airbnb did not pay for the hotel I had to book instead. I also couldn't use the meagre reimbursement I got on top of the full refund (at least...) because it was only valid for a month and I wasn't travelling at that time.
I still like the privacy and cooking my own food, but sometimes it's really terrible.
I stayed 1 stay in Croatia, 2 in Bosnia & Herzegovina (1 Sarajevo) - they were all great (1 was epic). Was a few years ago though...
One day I was just getting drunk with a pal in Istanbul and we decided to see if we could get an Airbnb ... in Mogadishu. Sure enough there was one, a real nice looking place listed dirt-cheap by a new account that seemed to be based in Seychelles. Totally above board, I'm sure.
Croatia is not Somalia, but it doesn't exactly scream "rule of law", either. Airbnb is not inherently safe so should only be used in countries where nobody would even think of breaking a law, like Switzerland or something. I have reservations about using it in America even.
Croatia is not Somalia, but it doesn't exactly scream "rule of law", either. Airbnb is not inherently safe so should only be used in countries where nobody would even think of breaking a law, like Switzerland or something. I have reservations about using it in America even.
I spent a week in an Airbnb near Dubrovnik, Croatia and it seemed like a normal, if slightly touristy European city in pretty much every way. And the Airbnb was really nice, too.
Not sure where you're getting this stuff about "doesn't exactly scream 'rule of law'".
Not sure where you're getting this stuff about "doesn't exactly scream 'rule of law'".
Croatia is a moderately corrupt mafia state. My personal view on this was formed when a Croatian coast guard officer demanded a bribe from me. But also https://www.transparency.org/news/feature/corruption_percept...
And still, Dubrovnik is safer than SF. I stayed close to Tenderloin there once, unforgettable.
I have started using hotels more lately after almost exclusively booking with airbnb for several years.
1 thing that I really appreciate about Airbnb still is that it allows you to stay in areas that usually don't have a lot of hotels, like Manhattan Beach CA or some other mostly residential area that also makes sense for tourist to stay. I would hate for them to fail and lose those options on a large scale
I stopped because the quality went way down. I used to get real hosts and now it’s mass scaled corporate rentals without a front desk to go talk to. Hotels at least have a front desk to go get help from and they are consistent in quality.
Yup, this is why I'm using hotels more now. Too many random problems, hosts who are in another country when I'm trying to solve issues, and accommodations that are often inconsistent with what was portrayed in the listing.
With all of these factors I really need a good deal for it to be worth the hassle
With all of these factors I really need a good deal for it to be worth the hassle
VRBO worked just fine before Airbnb was a thing.
I've never heard of it before this thread, so I guess they had a marketing problem. But I will definitely check it out next time I have reason to.
Site note - VRBO is owned by Expedia through its acquisition of HomeAway. Just last year Expedia consolidated it's homeaway/vrbo products into just VRBo and noticed the experience got significantly better (Booked twice though them for large groups in the last 6 months)
VRBO was Airbnb years before Airbnb decided to take their business model and add white-collar crime on top. Just like computer-dispatched car services existed for decades prior to Uber.
Not quite. VRBO was (and I guess mostly still is) focused on vacation rentals in traditional vacation destinations (beaches, ski resorts, etc.), and even before that there were of course local property-manager managed rentals for decades.
AirBnB was originally about shared rentals in urban destinations. Of course they both grew to overlap in a lot of areas, but AirBnB had a huge advantage in that their business model was much better suited (renters paid a fee for each booking, while VRBO had owners pay a subscription fee) to a Google AdWords dominated world.
AirBnB was originally about shared rentals in urban destinations. Of course they both grew to overlap in a lot of areas, but AirBnB had a huge advantage in that their business model was much better suited (renters paid a fee for each booking, while VRBO had owners pay a subscription fee) to a Google AdWords dominated world.
Right, VRBO focused on vacation rentals, i.e. places where short-term stays are welcome, customary, and legal. AirBnB decided to apply the same model in cities were the practice is unwelcome, novel, and unlawful.
They're doomed, and the collapse in travel and discretionary spending could take a lot of property owners down with it. On the plus side this might clear a lot of greed out of the property market, allow prices to return to a saner median, and relieve the housing shortage that obtains in many places.
I don't think they're doomed. COVID-19 is a big deal, but eventually it will pass, people will resume travel, and people will get back to work; the world eventually resumed after the Black Plague and the Spanish Flu, and this isn't anywhere near as bad.
Like, I hope the AirBnB trend slows down greatly for all of the reasons you listed, but they exist because people don't have the need or ability to pay for more expensive, temporary lodging.
Like, I hope the AirBnB trend slows down greatly for all of the reasons you listed, but they exist because people don't have the need or ability to pay for more expensive, temporary lodging.
My experience with AirBnb has been good but often I feel I miss something. If possible I always almost choose a hotel, because it seems cleaner, service oriented, often has breakfast and a place to have a drink or a coffee.
There are places that is more suitable for renting a private place, but in where there are tourists there are often better offers at hotels.
There are places that is more suitable for renting a private place, but in where there are tourists there are often better offers at hotels.
In the beginning it was nice, you could actually meet interesting people. Now it mostly feels anonymous and impersonal, often you end up sharing an apartment with two or three other tenants and the landlord doesn’t even show up once. I prefer hotels now, price-wise the difference to AirBnB isn’t very large.
In Austin, TX Airbnb incontrovertibly revealed that hotel room volume was insufficient for demand and was suppressing tourism and its inflow of outside cash.
The common complaint about insufficient & overpriced hotels stopped being theory and was proved out by an elastic federated supply that _at least initially_ put more money in the hands of private parties.
High cost of entry for building hotels in the urban core & decrepit central planning suppressed the cities growth for years. At first hotel companies and their "advocates" complained, but then after they realized it wasn't going to go away, the cranes showed up and started addressing the real problem.
I don't know if Airbnb will be forever, but things like it should at least be cyclically introduced to reveal infrastructure and planning failures, then local private parties can solve the problem and profit while planning commissions try to keep up.
The common complaint about insufficient & overpriced hotels stopped being theory and was proved out by an elastic federated supply that _at least initially_ put more money in the hands of private parties.
High cost of entry for building hotels in the urban core & decrepit central planning suppressed the cities growth for years. At first hotel companies and their "advocates" complained, but then after they realized it wasn't going to go away, the cranes showed up and started addressing the real problem.
I don't know if Airbnb will be forever, but things like it should at least be cyclically introduced to reveal infrastructure and planning failures, then local private parties can solve the problem and profit while planning commissions try to keep up.
I’m the opposite. I have had so many good experiences at Airbnb properties and a few years ago I started being a host. It’s a fantastic platform.
You really do have to read the reviews, though, both as a guest and as a host.
You really do have to read the reviews, though, both as a guest and as a host.
The review system is flawed.
https://www.businessinsider.com/why-airbnb-reviews-are-a-pro...
https://www.businessinsider.com/why-airbnb-reviews-are-a-pro...
I'm the opposite, as well. We recently visited the US for a month - our travel agent booked hotels in Anaheim and San Diego for us, and we used Airbnb for the rest. The first hotel was fine, but barely. The second was horrendous - it stank, the carpets were wet and so dirty our socks turned black. We bailed and booked an Airbnb. All the Airbnbs that we booked were at least as good as we expected them to be, usually better.
It's the same story at home in Australia.
The caveat, perhaps, is that as a family of 6 we have trouble finding hotel rooms. We also usually book out full places, and want no interaction with the host unless things go wrong.
It's the same story at home in Australia.
The caveat, perhaps, is that as a family of 6 we have trouble finding hotel rooms. We also usually book out full places, and want no interaction with the host unless things go wrong.
The original idea was great, but people have gamed it so hard that it's falling apart because of lack of trust (in my opinion).
I'll preface this by saying that AirBnb lies about its prices/night, and that really suck.
Having said that, I really really don't understand the other criticisms against AirBnb here. I travel a lot, for leisure and work, and I constantly stay at AirBnbs and have been for years.
Here is how it compares with hotels for me:
* I usually can't remember any hotel room I've stayed at (unless it's the marina bay sands), whereas I remember every single AirBnB I've stayed at.
* When I stay in an airbnb for tourism, I feel like I lived a bit in the city, never get that feeling with a hotel.
* Pick up never has lines, and is often pretty straight forward (they have more and more of these locks for self-checkin)
* The location is always better for the price, I've heard people saying otherwise, but I've travelled all over the world with AirBnB and always found a better place for cheaper. The bay area was pretty hard, but I switched to a room at someone's place (instead of the whole place) and I ended up staying in insanely nice places. (I definitely recommend trying this, it's always much nicer and I seldom run into the people living there.)
* AirBnBs have a kitchen
* I overall find hotels to be dirty. There's something about them that I really don't like. Unless the hotel costs a LOT of money (again, Marina bay sands <3) there's often that gross feeling. Especially in Vegas... Maybe I just think of all the people who've done stuff in the hotel room, as opposed to an AirBnB which feels like someone really lived there and respected the place.
So yeah, I don't buy the AirBnB has failed thing, because I'm a heavy user.
I might be wrong, but I hope not because AirBnB going bankrupt would be a real bummer IMO.
Having said that, I really really don't understand the other criticisms against AirBnb here. I travel a lot, for leisure and work, and I constantly stay at AirBnbs and have been for years.
Here is how it compares with hotels for me:
* I usually can't remember any hotel room I've stayed at (unless it's the marina bay sands), whereas I remember every single AirBnB I've stayed at.
* When I stay in an airbnb for tourism, I feel like I lived a bit in the city, never get that feeling with a hotel.
* Pick up never has lines, and is often pretty straight forward (they have more and more of these locks for self-checkin)
* The location is always better for the price, I've heard people saying otherwise, but I've travelled all over the world with AirBnB and always found a better place for cheaper. The bay area was pretty hard, but I switched to a room at someone's place (instead of the whole place) and I ended up staying in insanely nice places. (I definitely recommend trying this, it's always much nicer and I seldom run into the people living there.)
* AirBnBs have a kitchen
* I overall find hotels to be dirty. There's something about them that I really don't like. Unless the hotel costs a LOT of money (again, Marina bay sands <3) there's often that gross feeling. Especially in Vegas... Maybe I just think of all the people who've done stuff in the hotel room, as opposed to an AirBnB which feels like someone really lived there and respected the place.
So yeah, I don't buy the AirBnB has failed thing, because I'm a heavy user.
I might be wrong, but I hope not because AirBnB going bankrupt would be a real bummer IMO.
So yeah, I don't buy the AirBnB has failed thing, because I'm a heavy user.
AirBnB hasn't failed. It has plenty of users, and over $2bn in revenue. That's not enough though, because the costs of running the business are higher than $2bn and so we see articles about how it made a loss again.
It seems fairly clear to me that a large number of loss-making unicorn companies need to get their costs under control, and the obvious way to do that is to lose some staff, or pay them less. At the moment that's hard because there's enough competition between companies that people can choose where to work but eventually the need to cut costs will outweigh the need for "the best people", and salaries for new jobs will start to fall. The result for many developers will be that they have to either stay in their role for a long time or accept a pay cut to move company. It might be worth considering that possible outcome if you work in dev right now.
AirBnB hasn't failed. It has plenty of users, and over $2bn in revenue. That's not enough though, because the costs of running the business are higher than $2bn and so we see articles about how it made a loss again.
It seems fairly clear to me that a large number of loss-making unicorn companies need to get their costs under control, and the obvious way to do that is to lose some staff, or pay them less. At the moment that's hard because there's enough competition between companies that people can choose where to work but eventually the need to cut costs will outweigh the need for "the best people", and salaries for new jobs will start to fall. The result for many developers will be that they have to either stay in their role for a long time or accept a pay cut to move company. It might be worth considering that possible outcome if you work in dev right now.
From the article:
> "The company has been spending heavily on marketing ahead of its public debut."
Airbnb doesn't have _that_ big a problem with costs; not like Uber, Wework, etc.
They were profitable in 2017 and 2018, and have been for most of their existence, unlike their fellow unicorns.
I also don't think staff is that big a cost for them; again, they're not like Uber, having to spend gazillions on both a huge on-the-ground workforce and bottomless-pit R&D for autonomous driving.
Unlike their unicorn peers, they're a fundamentally a very strong company, that has temporarily gone into deficit to accelerate growth leading up to their IPO, but they're still in good shape.
The coronavirus is an unexpected hit, but they'll fare much better than the rest of the travel industry.
> "The company has been spending heavily on marketing ahead of its public debut."
Airbnb doesn't have _that_ big a problem with costs; not like Uber, Wework, etc.
They were profitable in 2017 and 2018, and have been for most of their existence, unlike their fellow unicorns.
I also don't think staff is that big a cost for them; again, they're not like Uber, having to spend gazillions on both a huge on-the-ground workforce and bottomless-pit R&D for autonomous driving.
Unlike their unicorn peers, they're a fundamentally a very strong company, that has temporarily gone into deficit to accelerate growth leading up to their IPO, but they're still in good shape.
The coronavirus is an unexpected hit, but they'll fare much better than the rest of the travel industry.
Not sure what you mean about lying about prices.. I've booked 28 stays on 5 continents since 2014 and never been lied to.
Do you mean having to click on "price breakdown" to see the service and cleaning fees?
Do you mean hosts asking for cash payments for things like linens and key deposits? (These have happened to me, but it is against ToS and Airbnb took my side)
My current travel plans are chaos due to cancellations. We have up to 10 flight segments over a month away that we are eating 100% of the cost on due to a cancelled cruise. We are dealing with 3 airlines with multiple hour waits and confusing policies with no success so far.
AirBnB, by comparison has been a total delight. In the app, I push the "cancel" button, and it's like "yea, that's months away, no problem here's 100% to your credit card today"
Do you mean having to click on "price breakdown" to see the service and cleaning fees?
Do you mean hosts asking for cash payments for things like linens and key deposits? (These have happened to me, but it is against ToS and Airbnb took my side)
My current travel plans are chaos due to cancellations. We have up to 10 flight segments over a month away that we are eating 100% of the cost on due to a cancelled cruise. We are dealing with 3 airlines with multiple hour waits and confusing policies with no success so far.
AirBnB, by comparison has been a total delight. In the app, I push the "cancel" button, and it's like "yea, that's months away, no problem here's 100% to your credit card today"
> Not sure what you mean about lying about prices
challenge accepted: https://imgur.com/gallery/6UeavrH
* I've searched for 4 nights in SF some time in May
* the second result is 99$/night
* bill for 4 nights end up being 561$. 150$ magically appeared.
That's a 40% increase at checkout time lol.
Again I love AirBnB but this is scamy.
challenge accepted: https://imgur.com/gallery/6UeavrH
* I've searched for 4 nights in SF some time in May
* the second result is 99$/night
* bill for 4 nights end up being 561$. 150$ magically appeared.
That's a 40% increase at checkout time lol.
Again I love AirBnB but this is scamy.
Your screenshot says "$492 total" which includes the cleaning and service fees. The service and cleaning fees are set by the host, and can be $0.
Then it adds the California taxes on the checkout page. That is what hotels do too.
Then it adds the California taxes on the checkout page. That is what hotels do too.
Indeed, but this is completely baffling to anyone in Europe. Simple example:
In the US, if I have $5 in my pocket, I can't go to a store and buy a thing that's listed as costing $5.00, because at the cash register some more money has magically appeared on the bill.
In Europe on the other hand, you pay at the register the exact amount that is on the price sticker.
And yes, I know the difference is due to taxes not being included in the sticker price, but why oh god why is it up to me to do weird math to figure out if I actually have enough $$$ to pay for what I'd like to have.
And yes, I know the difference is due to taxes not being included in the sticker price, but why oh god why is it up to me to do weird math to figure out if I actually have enough $$$ to pay for what I'd like to have.
> why is it up to me to do weird math to figure out if I actually have enough $$$ to pay for what I'd like to have.
Well, one reason is: to make you aware of the tax burden (and judge if that % is kept at a reasonable level), rather than hiding it in the total price.
Well, one reason is: to make you aware of the tax burden (and judge if that % is kept at a reasonable level), rather than hiding it in the total price.
And why do I, as a customer, have to expend that effort to "be aware of the tax burden"?
It also seems to have nasty incentives, I've never heard of people talking about taxes so much before moving to the US. Here everybody is afraid of taxes going up, and people who support Sanders' ideas are not voting for him because "he is going to raise the taxes".
But in my opinion it's backward, instead of being up-front about costs, they are HIDING costs. I can still see how much taxes is taken when I get a receipt in France for example, it's just not hidden from you at the beginning of the transaction.
But in my opinion it's backward, instead of being up-front about costs, they are HIDING costs. I can still see how much taxes is taken when I get a receipt in France for example, it's just not hidden from you at the beginning of the transaction.
Ah, looks like they added august last year, hadn't noticed that!
It is still hidden, and not the fair price (which they could calculate).
> That is what hotels do too
Hotels who do this are scammy IMO. I've only seen this in the US.
It is still hidden, and not the fair price (which they could calculate).
> That is what hotels do too
Hotels who do this are scammy IMO. I've only seen this in the US.
Pro-tip: Use https://www.airbnb.com.au - the site will show the real final price, by Australian law.
What do you know, such issues can be resolved via proper regulation....
(Btw, you can also change the currency by clicking on the "world icon" at the top right).
What do you know, such issues can be resolved via proper regulation....
(Btw, you can also change the currency by clicking on the "world icon" at the top right).
> unless it's the marina bay sands
When you open the door to your 70th floor room and the blinds automatically open to a floor-to-ceiling view of the city...yup, memorable.
But I actually remember a lot of the hotels I've stayed at. It's the Sheratons and Marriotts that blur together. They're perfectly fine hotels, they're just all the same.
When you open the door to your 70th floor room and the blinds automatically open to a floor-to-ceiling view of the city...yup, memorable.
But I actually remember a lot of the hotels I've stayed at. It's the Sheratons and Marriotts that blur together. They're perfectly fine hotels, they're just all the same.
This is exactly my feeling too. There are still cases where I prefer hotels (business travel), but they just don't compare to Airbnb for vacations. Especially so if you have a group of people instead of 1 or 2.
While I agree with you, I remember my Airbnb stays for all the wrong reasons.
The pictures and description never matches what I find when I arrive and by that time, it's too late and Airbnb has rarely stepped in to help.
I know what I can expect at hotels, with Airbnb, I never fully know until I show up.
The pictures and description never matches what I find when I arrive and by that time, it's too late and Airbnb has rarely stepped in to help.
I know what I can expect at hotels, with Airbnb, I never fully know until I show up.
Just to be clear, the hotel cleaning is a problem I saw in the U. S., but not in Europe (granted my experience is limited). There might be some law at play there
I will stay in airbnb if someone else manages everything, otherwise I'm only in hotels now. I hate having to coordinate key pickups, I've shown up at listed places that weren't supposed to be listed by some middleman company.
When I travel, the place I stay needs as few liabilities as possible, and airbnb cannot provide that.
I still use the for the experience listings sometimes, but never for lodging.
When I travel, the place I stay needs as few liabilities as possible, and airbnb cannot provide that.
I still use the for the experience listings sometimes, but never for lodging.
Similar. I used to really like Airbnb and had a few great stays years back. But now I almost never even check it because the extra costs pile up and there are more disadvantages than advantages. I mostly stay in smaller motels where it is often the owner at the front desk, you can bank on someone being there to check you in at 10pm, etc.
COVID could break them. They're at 1B revenue and losing money, on a 30B valuation?
This is bubble valuation, and with WeWork blowing up and now COVID hitting everything, the stock market in freefall - and that COVID will be materially damaging specifically to AirnBnB - not just indirectly ... the party is over.
This is the inflection point at which AirBnB becomes a 'real company' and has to live within the confines of 'non-bubble-valuations'.
Which is fine, think they will survive but not without changes.
This is bubble valuation, and with WeWork blowing up and now COVID hitting everything, the stock market in freefall - and that COVID will be materially damaging specifically to AirnBnB - not just indirectly ... the party is over.
This is the inflection point at which AirBnB becomes a 'real company' and has to live within the confines of 'non-bubble-valuations'.
Which is fine, think they will survive but not without changes.
I'm suddenly concerned about my booking in May...
One thing I don’t see mentioned here is the out of control compensation Airbnb has had for engineers. As an engineer I love to see companies pay more, but Airbnb has been beating Facebook offers when they really don’t need to. Companies like this are not rocket science. I get that the website is just the top of the iceberg, but all those massive stock grants and base salaries are going to haunt them.
Not all startups are the same, but for companies that are bottom driven and growing crazy, the skill, leadership, business sense, and amount of care needed at IC level is unfathomable for someone who works at a more traditionally managed company.
If they skimp on salary it'll be extremely difficult to attract the kind of people they need.
If they skimp on salary it'll be extremely difficult to attract the kind of people they need.
Maybe, but my point was that Airbnb is not one of those companies. Everyone I’ve met working there says they do run of the mill web dev. Those same engineers are making in excess of 450k, and are barely 30. Airbnb got into some prestige employee game and hurt themselves doing it.
They're beating Facebook offers with non-liquid stock. Tbd if they're really beating FB offers.
Sure but now there’s pressure for them to ipo because all of their employees have been stacking paper money for years. Just issuing massive grants doesn’t work forever, there are consequences once a company leaves the early stages.
I'd imagine there's a sizable group of people who think Airbnb is only worth it if the price (and maybe location) is significantly better than a hotel, and that seems to be less true as the company matures.
It's also about facilities. Having a full kitchen and separate rooms makes a world of difference when you're traveling with kids.
Anecdotally, I've seen luxury/boutique hotels respond to the kitchen/separate rooms appeal by offering those features at competitive prices.
On the other end some hotel brands are pioneering smaller "pod" units to be more competitive with shared rooms/tiny apartments.
I'd generally assume that the economics of maintaining a 10-100 unit hotel are universally better than managing 3 single-family homes if you can maintain "feature-parity".
On the other end some hotel brands are pioneering smaller "pod" units to be more competitive with shared rooms/tiny apartments.
I'd generally assume that the economics of maintaining a 10-100 unit hotel are universally better than managing 3 single-family homes if you can maintain "feature-parity".
This is it for us as well. We always used to use VRBO for vacations for the same reason (and will likely return based on serial bad experiences with AirBnB).
I feel like a snob but I can't stand staying in hotels any more when I'm travelling for fun.
I feel like a snob but I can't stand staying in hotels any more when I'm travelling for fun.
Just a microwave saves significant money as I only need to order one restaurant meal a day and can easily split it in two. I need to be very picky about what I can eat so if I found something I'd much rather not waste half of it.
So many hotel rooms don't feature microwaves. Sure, full kitchens are a fire hazard but a microwave?? Maybe because some has room service and want to push that instead? Or maybe they had room service it ceased but the lack of microwaves stayed like bugs in legacy codebases.
So many hotel rooms don't feature microwaves. Sure, full kitchens are a fire hazard but a microwave?? Maybe because some has room service and want to push that instead? Or maybe they had room service it ceased but the lack of microwaves stayed like bugs in legacy codebases.
There seems to be two market segments for solo/duo travelers and families/large groups.
I’ve done the latter with big groups of friends and renting a nice house for a week is a great experience. But I think vacation rental homes of this sort existed well before airbnb
I’ve done the latter with big groups of friends and renting a nice house for a week is a great experience. But I think vacation rental homes of this sort existed well before airbnb
They did exist, but they're far more discoverable with airbnb et al.
There's also a significant group of people who thinks AirBnb works very well at the 2x-4x hotel price for a much nicer space. Hotels simply don't have enough of those rooms or if those rooms do exist they are considered to be <some ridiculously named set of> suites that are billed at ridiculous daily rate.
Edit - Examples pulled from the notes from 2019:
Paris - AirBNB $650 a night, 3rd story walk-up ~1900 sq feet apartment with a balcony. Hotel price for something similar? $12,442.00/night. Hotel for a basic room ( ~300sq feet) ? $220/night.
Barcelona - 2nd floor apartment in El Born. ~1500 sq feet. $590/night. 1500 sq feet room in a hotel? There were two in the entire city. Price? ~8k/night. Basic room in a hotel? $180/night. King room in a hotel ( ~370 sq feet! Amazing! ) $440.
I can go on and on.
At below hotel prices AirBnb competes with cockroach infested motels.
Edit - Examples pulled from the notes from 2019:
Paris - AirBNB $650 a night, 3rd story walk-up ~1900 sq feet apartment with a balcony. Hotel price for something similar? $12,442.00/night. Hotel for a basic room ( ~300sq feet) ? $220/night.
Barcelona - 2nd floor apartment in El Born. ~1500 sq feet. $590/night. 1500 sq feet room in a hotel? There were two in the entire city. Price? ~8k/night. Basic room in a hotel? $180/night. King room in a hotel ( ~370 sq feet! Amazing! ) $440.
I can go on and on.
At below hotel prices AirBnb competes with cockroach infested motels.
In Europe this is totally not true. I use Airbnb almost twice month when I travel to some tango event anywhere in Europe.
I always choose Airbnb because it is cheaper than an ok hotel but almost always better, never worse.
Outliers: gut feeling says less than 5% over 6 years.
I always choose Airbnb because it is cheaper than an ok hotel but almost always better, never worse.
Outliers: gut feeling says less than 5% over 6 years.
This is how I see Airbnb in 2020. Big cities have cracked down on people renting out their places and all the idealist hosts have left. Hotels are getting cheaper to compete. The one thing that Airbnb still seems to be great at is ultra-trendy "experience" homes like solar-powered biodomes in the desert or cross-laminated timber cabins in the mountains.
Here, all my friends and my girlfriend are using airbnb for the reason that it is significantly cheaper than a hotel. If a hotel is only 10-15% more expensive, I also usually take the hotel.
Regarding the loss - airbnb is already mature and still generating so much loss? What a bad way to run a business. Would not invest.
Regarding the loss - airbnb is already mature and still generating so much loss? What a bad way to run a business. Would not invest.
AirBNB is group if you're traveling with a decent sized group. You can cook meals together, have a place to hangout, etc. As a solo traveler it's less good. Most of the time you either end up renting out an entire place for yourself (usually not cost effective compared to a decent hotel. Especially if you're paying a $50-$100 cleaning fee amortized across a 1-2 night stay), or renting a room in someone's house (which is cost effective but a bit of a crapshoot, especially if you like having your own space to decompress at the end of the day)
Also selection. You can get AirBnBs in a number of regions where hotels are just not available or may be fully booked up.
It's less true as more and more lazy landlords try to get on the bus.
I have used Airbnb probably a little over more than ten times. And I've been very pleased. From renting a room in an apartment with other airbnb renters to renting a room in a hosts house, to renting an apartment to renting a whole house with friends, it's always been a good experience.
The times we rented houses as a group were the best and most memorable.
My experience may be a bit atypical in that I don't care for the services a hotel provides, but I greatly value having a bit more space than a typical hotel room.
The times we rented houses as a group were the best and most memorable.
My experience may be a bit atypical in that I don't care for the services a hotel provides, but I greatly value having a bit more space than a typical hotel room.
Is airbnb still a significant portion of YC's portfolio or did they cash out? If airbnb crash and burns would it impact YC negatively?
There must be some difficult conversations happening at Airbnb leadership/Board right now. IPO has to look like needing to be postponed and I guess they will need to start figuring out ways to reduce their burn-rate until market conditions improve.
Airbnb is a shitty company. Last october we traveled to Seoul and couldn't find the location of the apartment we booked. Even the local taxi driver couldn't find it after circling the area for ~30 minutes. We called the host during the entire 30 minutes and didn't get through to them.
After about 1 hour of time, we decided to call it quits and go book a hotel because it was 10pm at night and our kids needed to sleep. We were just hoping for a refund with Airbnb. What's their policy? "it's up to the host to decide if they want to give a refund". What did the host say? "i have great reviews and i haven't heard of anyone not being able to find the place." What about the fact that you didn't answer your calls? WTF
Similar situation when we booked a place in Tokyo. We asked the host whether it would be okay since we have two young children who are known to be playful/wild/loud. He assured it was okay and assured us the place was big enough to handle all four of us. We arrive in tokyo and and the place is tiny. The bathroom is literally a 3x3 box with a shower right on top of the toilet. The entire room is taken up by 2 beds with no place to move around, let alone space for luggage and two kids. On top of that, the host's apartment is in a building where the walls are paper thin and the neighbors are super sensitive to noise. We did the hosts' neighbors a favor and went and got a hotel room. Refund from airbnb? Maybe a partial refund? NOPE.
Seriously, I'm never booking anything on airbnb again.
After about 1 hour of time, we decided to call it quits and go book a hotel because it was 10pm at night and our kids needed to sleep. We were just hoping for a refund with Airbnb. What's their policy? "it's up to the host to decide if they want to give a refund". What did the host say? "i have great reviews and i haven't heard of anyone not being able to find the place." What about the fact that you didn't answer your calls? WTF
Similar situation when we booked a place in Tokyo. We asked the host whether it would be okay since we have two young children who are known to be playful/wild/loud. He assured it was okay and assured us the place was big enough to handle all four of us. We arrive in tokyo and and the place is tiny. The bathroom is literally a 3x3 box with a shower right on top of the toilet. The entire room is taken up by 2 beds with no place to move around, let alone space for luggage and two kids. On top of that, the host's apartment is in a building where the walls are paper thin and the neighbors are super sensitive to noise. We did the hosts' neighbors a favor and went and got a hotel room. Refund from airbnb? Maybe a partial refund? NOPE.
Seriously, I'm never booking anything on airbnb again.
You're basically conflating different expectations in living conditions to being dishonest reviews.
Your example of Tokyo feels absolutely tone deaf to me as someone who has been there multiple times. That's just the reality of the Tokyo rent market. The places are tiny and that's how the culture is there.
Your example of Tokyo feels absolutely tone deaf to me as someone who has been there multiple times. That's just the reality of the Tokyo rent market. The places are tiny and that's how the culture is there.
I had uniformly excellent AirBnB experiences in Tokyo, five out of five.
As a solo traveler. Nowhere I stayed was remotely suitable for a family of four.
As a solo traveler. Nowhere I stayed was remotely suitable for a family of four.
That's probably by American expectations though. Most of Asia builds much denser (and smaller, roomwise) than anything in the states.
I also stayed with a family of five, so I'm familiar with what family housing in Tokyo looks like.
Small, yes. But comfortable, and nothing like what the top of this thread describes.
Small, yes. But comfortable, and nothing like what the top of this thread describes.
Not my first rodeo in Tokyo in an Airbnb dude, and I’m not conflating shit. I’ve had good experiences in Tokyo Airbnb as well as in Hong Kong and Taipei where space is just as limited. My frustration is with the host where we clearly asked up front before booking whether this would be a good place for my family. And the pics were definitely not representative of the actual space.
I friend of mine had her host cancel a couple of days before her several-day Christmas trip. Of course everything else was crazy expensive by then so she ended up missing Christmas. Airbnb refunded her $16.
The host is probably listing the suite on multiple listing sites (Or even just with multiple listings on AirBnB), for different prices. When someone books the more expensive listing, they tell the person who booked the cheaper one to pound sand.
Everything in Tokyo is tiny. My dad, my wife and I stayed at a reasonably nice hotel there ($250/night) and the situation was basically how you're describing your Airbnb -- bedroom that's completely taken up by the beds, and a bathroom you can barely turn around in.
Kyoto, Hiroshima, etc. are a different story. But Tokyo is pretty much the most cramped place I've ever visited, both indoors and out.
Kyoto, Hiroshima, etc. are a different story. But Tokyo is pretty much the most cramped place I've ever visited, both indoors and out.
I find it a bit naive to take small children along with you into unknown situations like that. I question your judgement after repeating the mistake. I think Airbnb floats on questionable judgement and people are starting to catch on.
Eh, we AirBnB'd a place for our anniversary when our kid was 4 months old. It was his first night away from home, so we were a little nervous, particularly since he was a pretty noisy baby and had yet to sleep through the night. We only went an hour away so we could bail and come home if it was a disaster.
He ended up having a blast. The hosts had two pre-school age kids, and he was fascinated watching them ride their bikes around the courtyard. He was quiet enough that the hosts didn't even notice him, and he slept through the night for the first time.
Kids are pretty resilient, and if you never stretch into the unknown, you never find out what you can do. We've taken him on another (international this time) AirBnB trip, when he was 16 months, and he had a blast again. Though he did give us a minor heart attack when he woke up from his nap, evaded the baby monitor we'd set up, climbed off the bed, walked across the basement, and ascended a full flight of stairs by himself, only making his presence known by scratching at the kitchen/stair door.
He ended up having a blast. The hosts had two pre-school age kids, and he was fascinated watching them ride their bikes around the courtyard. He was quiet enough that the hosts didn't even notice him, and he slept through the night for the first time.
Kids are pretty resilient, and if you never stretch into the unknown, you never find out what you can do. We've taken him on another (international this time) AirBnB trip, when he was 16 months, and he had a blast again. Though he did give us a minor heart attack when he woke up from his nap, evaded the baby monitor we'd set up, climbed off the bed, walked across the basement, and ascended a full flight of stairs by himself, only making his presence known by scratching at the kitchen/stair door.
Our kids have been all over the world and enjoy traveling. It’s a bit naive to think every child is the same. I question your judgment regarding other people’s parenting.
It’s not about the children’s capacity to adjust. They always do. That’s what kids do.
I am talking about taking children into an insecure situation in a foreign country to the point where you have to scramble to find housing for the night.
That said, I have a friend who’s mom had a need to travel frequently when she was young. She’s been all over the world. When I asked her whether it was worth it for her her, she said that it wasn’t. She just wanted to be home sometimes. She just wanted her mom to be happy so she went along, smiling.
I am talking about taking children into an insecure situation in a foreign country to the point where you have to scramble to find housing for the night.
That said, I have a friend who’s mom had a need to travel frequently when she was young. She’s been all over the world. When I asked her whether it was worth it for her her, she said that it wasn’t. She just wanted to be home sometimes. She just wanted her mom to be happy so she went along, smiling.
[deleted]
> I assume you were in Seoul for more than 1 day. What stopped you from going to the AirBnB starting the 2nd night? Not answering the call is no proof but I would have insisted to at least see the room I freaking paid for.
Once the person you're transacting with ripped you off, why on Earth would you try to keep engaging with them?
I mean, maybe if you want to waste your time on vacation, by all means, go ahead. I imagine most other travelers have better shit to do.
Once the person you're transacting with ripped you off, why on Earth would you try to keep engaging with them?
I mean, maybe if you want to waste your time on vacation, by all means, go ahead. I imagine most other travelers have better shit to do.
> why keep engaging with them?
So you can survive getting second-guesses by random internet people.
So you can survive getting second-guesses by random internet people.
Is Airbnb a fad? Or may be it provides a value in remote under served areas only. For the most part if it worth setting up a hotel in the area, I found hotels are usually better both in terms of options and price. I also seem to be uncomfortable using another persons house and so walk and use stuff rather gingerly always worried about breaking their stuff or spoiling it. In a hotel I am somehow much freer. I don’t see the allure of Airbnb. I am only wondering how big or small the set of people like me is.
I wonder if this is just seasonality for their business. A lot of people travel in Nov/Dec, but mostly it's to see family, so they often already have a place to stay when they get where they're going.
I suspect summer is their big quarter. I wouldn't be surprised if they made their fiscal year start in March so that they can get that strong quarter at the beginning of the year, like how Apple starts their in September so they get Christmas at the beginning of the fiscal year instead of the end.
I suspect summer is their big quarter. I wouldn't be surprised if they made their fiscal year start in March so that they can get that strong quarter at the beginning of the year, like how Apple starts their in September so they get Christmas at the beginning of the fiscal year instead of the end.
Not according to the article:
"The world's biggest home-sharing company reported a loss of $276.4 million excluding interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization, compared with a loss of $143.7 million a year earlier"
The loss increased by almost 100% versus the same time last year--and that's before COVID-19. This really makes me wonder how their planned IPO this year will perform.
"The world's biggest home-sharing company reported a loss of $276.4 million excluding interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization, compared with a loss of $143.7 million a year earlier"
The loss increased by almost 100% versus the same time last year--and that's before COVID-19. This really makes me wonder how their planned IPO this year will perform.
Similar losses to SNAP. They'll probably be fine.
I hope it's not the Groupon story repeating, where they went from funky-accounting to GAAP and all numbers had to be re-reported, obviously not in the company's favor.
It's not like Groupon. EBITDA is a totally normal metric to get a sense of how the core business is doing, and positive EBITDA in tech is a good leading indicator of profitability.
EBITDA is basically "how profitable would the business be if they had no debt and their existing assets never lost value?". For companies with factories, airplanes, etc. the physical plant deterioration matters a lot. For biotech companies with patents that expire after 20 years, asset value loss matters a lot too. But tech companies have neither physical capital nor TTL'ed intellectual property, so EBITDA is a good approximation.
What happened here is that the whole travel industry is falling apart, not accounting gimmicks.
EBITDA is basically "how profitable would the business be if they had no debt and their existing assets never lost value?". For companies with factories, airplanes, etc. the physical plant deterioration matters a lot. For biotech companies with patents that expire after 20 years, asset value loss matters a lot too. But tech companies have neither physical capital nor TTL'ed intellectual property, so EBITDA is a good approximation.
What happened here is that the whole travel industry is falling apart, not accounting gimmicks.
Was literally just reading Airdna's report on covid-19 impact on Airbnb revenue. Looks like things will get much worse for them.
https://www.airdna.co/blog/coronavirus-impact-on-global-shor...
https://www.airdna.co/blog/coronavirus-impact-on-global-shor...
I’ve had generally good experiences from Airbnb hosts but given that they don’t support guests when things do go wrong I’m reluctant to use them again.
I'm surprised to see the pessimism here. For a family of 5 AirBnB is far better than hotels. I'd much rather get a whole house than cram everyone into a single hotel room. And I can't remember the last time I had a bad experience. Maybe the "whole house, multi-bedroom" segment is different from the typical AirBnB experience?
For a consumer, AirBNB is at least a interesting alternative.
Consider the flipside. What would be a good home for a family of five, is now taken off the market.
Consider the flipside. What would be a good home for a family of five, is now taken off the market.
It's a fair criticism when there's some restrictions on supply. In SF about 1.5% of housing is on AirBnB. Is that tiny? Lots? It's probably not enough to move prices either way.
I'm currently in an AirBnB which saved me from spending a fortune on a hotel or trying to do the impossible - rent a place for one month in Zürich.
Both the app and website UX are horrid though.
In the long run I prefer this over hotels. Not only the price is better, but you also usually have access to amenities like a kitchen or washing machine.
Both the app and website UX are horrid though.
In the long run I prefer this over hotels. Not only the price is better, but you also usually have access to amenities like a kitchen or washing machine.
Good Airbnb screws hosts and lies about their million dollar policy. We had about 5 condos we managed and Airbnb never compensated us if the damage was over 50$ They always found a way to deny it. Also always refunded guests when guests lied about anything really.
Just putting my 2 cents here as a user. I love AirBnB and never have had an issue at all so far. Once this gets over and yes it will I will continue to use it.
Also: quit a few people wont be able to pax there rent or mortgages anymore. A few hosts i visited told that they do airbmb to afford to live in the citiy / pay the mortgage...
Waiting for updates on We Work’s situation. With a potential downturn looming and social distancing (wfh) from coronavirus it can’t be good.
is there a way to explain these losses other than "I had a bad experience at an AirBnB"?
The growing loses are mostly likely, ironically due to their growth.
As such companies grow and see huge market in front of them, it makes sense to take on loses to grab bigger market share.
Consider a company that makes widgets, profitably on a unit-basis. If margins are thin and it costs a lot to make said widgets, then they need something called 'working capital' which is the money to pay suppliers etc. before they, themselves get paid by their customers. This 'working capital' is kind of like a permanent need for some kind of debt, and weirdly, it grows as the company grows! So in a similar way, a 'high growth' company can have an ever-increasing need for debt as long as it's growing. Without access to this working capital, it can starve and die. It seems like it's a paradox, but it's not.
COVID will hit AirBnB pretty hard.
As such companies grow and see huge market in front of them, it makes sense to take on loses to grab bigger market share.
Consider a company that makes widgets, profitably on a unit-basis. If margins are thin and it costs a lot to make said widgets, then they need something called 'working capital' which is the money to pay suppliers etc. before they, themselves get paid by their customers. This 'working capital' is kind of like a permanent need for some kind of debt, and weirdly, it grows as the company grows! So in a similar way, a 'high growth' company can have an ever-increasing need for debt as long as it's growing. Without access to this working capital, it can starve and die. It seems like it's a paradox, but it's not.
COVID will hit AirBnB pretty hard.
So COVID-19 ended all IPO hope?
IIRC they have to IPO because a lot of employees have expiring RSUs. Either they IPO, or they find a way to buy out those employees' RSUs.
Didn't their founders not want an IPO at all?
I’ve used them four times and only had one good AirBNB experience. Hotels are so competitive in price in the markets I’ve visited that I never bother anymore.
My girlfriend and I used to think the same until we started staying at "shared" airbnbs, i.e. where you're staying at actual bed and breakfasts or someone's house as opposed to just a random apartment held by a Chinese superconglomerate filled with 1ply toilet paper.
Now we get to have really cool experiences - staying on a couple farms and watching our hosts go to work milking cows or feeding horses, staying in a really old Mexican woman's huge mansion and looking at pictures on the wall of her and her family with presidents, popes, all sorts of other really cool art, then having her cook us a delicious breakfast. That kinda thing.
If we wanna stay in a hotel and just have eachother to keep ourselves company, Airbnb can't compete. But for a really cool side-experience to the main vacation, that's something a hotel can't offer.
Now we get to have really cool experiences - staying on a couple farms and watching our hosts go to work milking cows or feeding horses, staying in a really old Mexican woman's huge mansion and looking at pictures on the wall of her and her family with presidents, popes, all sorts of other really cool art, then having her cook us a delicious breakfast. That kinda thing.
If we wanna stay in a hotel and just have eachother to keep ourselves company, Airbnb can't compete. But for a really cool side-experience to the main vacation, that's something a hotel can't offer.
This is airbnb's special thing. I wish I could filter for only these experiences.
Yeah I've met some great people via Airbnb. Some I've contacted privately after to stay with when traveling.
.... filled with toilet paper, you say...
My family and I use AirBnB almost every time we travel, especially when we go internationally. It's the only way to make sure we get a full kitchen, a necessity with the kids.
We always use Superhosts, and have never had an issue.
The only odd thing we had once was a host telling us that if anyone asks we are his "friends from America".
I think the key is sticking to superhosts. Also read all the reviews for the juicy nuggets. Sometimes there are some big red (or green) flags in the reviews.
We always use Superhosts, and have never had an issue.
The only odd thing we had once was a host telling us that if anyone asks we are his "friends from America".
I think the key is sticking to superhosts. Also read all the reviews for the juicy nuggets. Sometimes there are some big red (or green) flags in the reviews.
Lol that's hilarious. I wouldn't rock the boat and if the authorities pursed further I'd just say we were under duress.
I mean I'm pretty sure the only "authorities" the owner was worried about were the neighbors telling the HOA. :)
But yea, it was funny. Luckily it never came up. We were only there for a few hours to sleep before moving on.
But yea, it was funny. Luckily it never came up. We were only there for a few hours to sleep before moving on.
Oh then I'd totally lie through my teeth haha! The majority of HOA's are filled with NIMBY's entitled beyond reality.
I've gone back to using hotels given the cancellation policy of AirBnB is ridiculous. As we've seen these last days, plans need to be able to change and I don't mind paying a small premium for a cancellation-friendly hotel or serviced apartment.
Airbnb has a variety of different cancellation policies available to hosts.
As a host, I use the strict one because I can’t always schedule a last minute cleaning, and I find that people who plan ahead and don’t need to change are more respectful guests.
As a host, I use the strict one because I can’t always schedule a last minute cleaning, and I find that people who plan ahead and don’t need to change are more respectful guests.
For holidays booked without too much time ahead that's fine, but for work which is easily cancelled or postponed, it's impractical. I'd like to see a premium price offered with more flexibility on date changes.
The platform offers that, though the price premium for a flexible cancellation is not high enough to make me want to use that pricing policy.
It does vary. I locked in an AirBnB for a May conference before I had access to a room block--and before the current virus craziness started--because standard room rates were insane. But I was able to cancel things a couple weeks back when the conference was canceled.
That said, I've never actually stayed in a room booked through AirBnB (although I've stayed at B&Bs which also list there).
That said, I've never actually stayed in a room booked through AirBnB (although I've stayed at B&Bs which also list there).
Agreed, my experiences have also been very mediocre. the peace of mind of using hotels is becoming more and more evident.
If you read the reviews and stay with a good host, you are getting a level of service far beyond most hotels.
Not sure what your experience was like, but I’d be surprised if the host has good reviews.
Not sure what your experience was like, but I’d be surprised if the host has good reviews.
Airbnbs are still differentiated from hotels. They are great for large parties whereas hotels are not so much. They are also great for secluded and more local locations.
My experience is the opposite. I've used Airbnb dozens of times by now (am typing this from one, in fact), have rarely had a bad experience, and always find it cheaper than hotels, especially nice hotels. The only consistent negative, in my experience, is that there's so much variation that I end up spending way too much time comparing listings before picking one. I've gotten good at it but there's a paralysis issue and I don't really want to spend a whole evening on something like that. I think I have less anxiety around picking a hotel because hotels are more predictable. But I'd hate to go back to before Airbnb.
Same. Am kind of tired of Airbnb now.
Another example why, often the facilities which are advertised making an apartment seem on par with a hotel, often end up being some poorly maintained "home" version.
Another example why, often the facilities which are advertised making an apartment seem on par with a hotel, often end up being some poorly maintained "home" version.
My experiences have all been very good so far. Maybe because I am a cheap traveller and decent hotels are outside my price range.
When traveling with a group where you want more than one room, I almost always find renting a house / flat on AirBNB a better option: "private" (to the group) common areas and a kitchen are especially nice to have.
When traveling alone or with just one other person (with whom I'm sharing a room), I agree, hotels are hard to beat.
When traveling alone or with just one other person (with whom I'm sharing a room), I agree, hotels are hard to beat.
I only use them in areas where there aren't many or any hotels, quality is much better in those areas usually.
To add a positive anecdote, I've had 6 experiences with Airbnb and all of them were great. If you're traveling with just 1-3 people, the prices are comparable to hotels, as you say. But when traveling with a large group of people, I've found that Airbnb is a lot cheaper.
good. Airbnb is a horrible co
At this point I'm rooting for them to go bankrupt and fail, because they continue illegally operating in my city. It is illegal to lease entire units in NYC for <30 day spans, yet AirBnb does absolutely nothing to stop these listings and indeed refuses to cooperate with the city government in shutting them down.
Yeah. They're not a "home-sharing company" so much as a distributed hotel.
I don't mind non-violent civil disobedience like Airbnb promotes, no matter the issue I think it's a great reaction to bad laws and poor infrastructure planning.
Cant AirBnB just stop marketing and slow their runway burn to almost nothing?
They dont provide infrastructure or subsidies it should be okay
They dont provide infrastructure or subsidies it should be okay
Airbnb is a middle-man, they make money from the transactions (bookings) between guest and host. The more bookings, the more money they make.
The number of bookings is decreasing, and they are refunding their cut from bookings made months ago.
The number of bookings is decreasing, and they are refunding their cut from bookings made months ago.
Yes but to GP's point what are their costs? Marketing and a website? The last place I went to book for 3 days had almost $90 in 'service fees'. ???
I'd cynically like to say political lobbying (and be right, they spend a LOT) but much would be support, development and hosting.
BTW Airbnb charge both the guest and the host, they make a commission from both parties.
BTW Airbnb charge both the guest and the host, they make a commission from both parties.
International customer service in many languages.
Serious question, have you ever used AirBnB's customer service? It's so spare as to be nonexistent. They make Google look high-touch. The host is providing 95% of the service. AirBnB is only there if the host won't answer messages or there is some colossal problem with the listing. I've had several dozen stays and only invoved AirBnB service on maybe 5 of them. AirBnB should be making money hand over fist since essentially they're providing a pricey listing service.
I'm a super host and can be talking to a real person usually within 5 minutes. I'm in Australia, it might be a time zone thing.
Payroll for a company the size of AirBnB is easily north of a billion a year.
It was enough money for him to cover his mortgage and not have to work if he watched his spending. He's bleeding money now and it started about two months ago. This virus is going to hammer leveraged AirBnb hosts for a while and I think we'll start to see a wave of AirBnb bankruptcies.