Ask HN: Losing all interest in programming, what now?
177 comments
This sounds like the beginnings of burnout or depression... do you find joy in anything else? Does anything motivate you?
I went through this for about 3 years after my divorce. I couldn't find motivation or joy in anything. I turned to helping other people solve their problems because at least I was helping others to get through what I couldn't figure out how to get through myself. There was a lot of time spent in reflection and introspection and about a million cups of tea drank while looking out of the window trying to will myself to do something, anything. It was a tough run, I was just dragging myself out of it when COVID hit and kicked me while I was already down. I think I'm just beginning to be back on the rise again now. I can't promise I've got any advice that can help, but it certainly sounds like you are where I've been.
I went through this for about 3 years after my divorce. I couldn't find motivation or joy in anything. I turned to helping other people solve their problems because at least I was helping others to get through what I couldn't figure out how to get through myself. There was a lot of time spent in reflection and introspection and about a million cups of tea drank while looking out of the window trying to will myself to do something, anything. It was a tough run, I was just dragging myself out of it when COVID hit and kicked me while I was already down. I think I'm just beginning to be back on the rise again now. I can't promise I've got any advice that can help, but it certainly sounds like you are where I've been.
I’m in a similar boat myself. I told myself I didn’t have any energy for things outside of work because of my job, though I never found the workload that overwhelming. I could get lost in the puzzle of the technical work and I’m good at it, but I ultimately found the work to be meaningless. At some point enterprise SaaS feels so abstract that even if in some sense it’s improving the world (helping companies work more effectively or what have you) I just can’t connect with it. Finally I quit and I’ve been fortunate enough financially to be able to take a long break. I found that even without a job I had no energy to do much and spent the better part of 2019 doing squat. Did a little freelancing at the beginning of the pandemic but was feeling the same old frustrations sink in (I can only learn so much from working on Node-backed web applications over and over).
Still figuring it out. I’m dipping my toes back in to programming a little learning Rust and embedded programming and it’s nice to feel the thrill (and frustration) of being clueless. I’m trying to get in touch with my creative side more with music. But mostly just taking it a day at a time, hiking a lot, cooking, and trying to find peace in the day-to-day rather than trying to push myself to be “productive” (whatever that means).
Still figuring it out. I’m dipping my toes back in to programming a little learning Rust and embedded programming and it’s nice to feel the thrill (and frustration) of being clueless. I’m trying to get in touch with my creative side more with music. But mostly just taking it a day at a time, hiking a lot, cooking, and trying to find peace in the day-to-day rather than trying to push myself to be “productive” (whatever that means).
Hang in there.
Having been in your position, I know sometimes all you can do is hang in there and not much else.
You can never predict when the upturn will come...but it sounds like with some restorative activities (your hiking, cooking, music) you are on the right track even if it doesn’t feel like it.
Having been in your position, I know sometimes all you can do is hang in there and not much else.
You can never predict when the upturn will come...but it sounds like with some restorative activities (your hiking, cooking, music) you are on the right track even if it doesn’t feel like it.
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Finding peace in the day-to-day is a great way to find your way back to a good place. Allow yourself to do anything or nothing at all and not feel guilty about not being productive or even checking stuff off your to-do list. In fact, look at your to-do list and ask yourself if it's critical to your existence or happiness. If it doesn't bring you joy or ensure your continued existence - i.e. pays the bills, delete it from the list.
100% agree about this sounding a LOT like burnout. I'd strongly recommend the OP go though the list of symptoms listed here. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/high-octane-women/20...
most people who are suffering have no clue how badly they have it.
I felt very similarly. My wife and I were both VERY burnt out. Quit work and just lived on savings for far too long. We just couldn't find _any_ desire to do the hobbies we loved for like 7 months. Even then it was just _barely_ beginning to get the spark again.
Burnout sucks.
most people who are suffering have no clue how badly they have it.
I felt very similarly. My wife and I were both VERY burnt out. Quit work and just lived on savings for far too long. We just couldn't find _any_ desire to do the hobbies we loved for like 7 months. Even then it was just _barely_ beginning to get the spark again.
Burnout sucks.
Wow that was me at my last job. I wanted so badly to perform but I couldn't. I thought I was a terrible programmer and a terrible person for not being able to deliver. Looking back it wasn't a great environment and after a change I can think and learn again. It's great.
Diagnosed burnout here. It takes WAY longer than months to get back to where you once were (if you ever get there). Its been 7 years for me. (Thanks, Academia.)
> I turned to helping other people solve their problems because at least I was helping others to get through what I couldn't figure out how to get through myself.
Do you consider this to be a good thing? Doing the same now, and wondering if it’s okay.
Do you consider this to be a good thing? Doing the same now, and wondering if it’s okay.
Ultimately you won't really know if it's a good thing until after the fact. I think just following my nose and doing what felt good in the moment was a big help. I guess it helped that I'd been trained as a youth counsellor early in my career, and I've been helping people my whole life as a by-product of who I am. A lot of people over the years have told me I should be a counsellor because apparently I'm really good at sucking the drama out of situations, calming people, soothing their nerves and helping them to get to a point that they can solve their own problems.
Like I say though, often you won't really know if what you are doing is a good thing until you look back on it and you see that the person you helped has moved forward. Some people just don't want to be helped and no matter how much effort you put it, you're not helping. But it's really difficult to see that while you're in the midst of it.
Just keep doing what you're doing while you have the motivation to do something. Get what you can out of the experience - the energy I got from helping other people even just to find their smile in the midst of something they felt they couldn't get out from under was enough to say that today I did good.
And take it day by day.
Like I say though, often you won't really know if what you are doing is a good thing until you look back on it and you see that the person you helped has moved forward. Some people just don't want to be helped and no matter how much effort you put it, you're not helping. But it's really difficult to see that while you're in the midst of it.
Just keep doing what you're doing while you have the motivation to do something. Get what you can out of the experience - the energy I got from helping other people even just to find their smile in the midst of something they felt they couldn't get out from under was enough to say that today I did good.
And take it day by day.
Man, I really hope things turn up for you. Just on the basis of your attitude, it sounds like you deserve it. Depression's a bitch and I know burnout all too well, but it sounds like you have a good idea about the work it needs to overcome it
Appreciate this comment very much, thank you!
If there's anything I can do to help, hit me up. I think my email is on my profile. If not, it's my username at gmail.
> Do you consider this to be a good thing? Doing the same now, and wondering if it’s okay.
It probably does, but not in the way you might expect - takes you out of despair, but not out of the burnout.
I keep this cartoon in my bookmarks, because it says it better.
http://www.lunarbaboon.com/comics/miserable.html
It probably does, but not in the way you might expect - takes you out of despair, but not out of the burnout.
I keep this cartoon in my bookmarks, because it says it better.
http://www.lunarbaboon.com/comics/miserable.html
Not the one you asked, but I want to offer two things:
How good it is depends on a person and their ability to understand help as opposed to owning other peoples problems. It can be easy to get sucked into all that and make things worse.
Assuming all that is reasonable, I find helping others energizing. And it exercises skills that may be getting dull or increasingly hard to relate to.
FWIW
How good it is depends on a person and their ability to understand help as opposed to owning other peoples problems. It can be easy to get sucked into all that and make things worse.
Assuming all that is reasonable, I find helping others energizing. And it exercises skills that may be getting dull or increasingly hard to relate to.
FWIW
Yep, those are definitely signs of burnout. This happened to me this time last year. For me, I stopped coding and started building things with my hands (I renovated a house). The biggest problem with coding is the feedback loops. The endless minutiae of problems/bugs that must be fixed, the large holes (metaphorical) you must deep dive into to that make you lose sight of the origin and the end of the project.
Really if I think about it, the movie Office Space nailed it. Go do something else, coding will always be here.
Really if I think about it, the movie Office Space nailed it. Go do something else, coding will always be here.
I second this.
I'm nothing close to a trained psychologist or counselor, but maybe a good first step is to determine if it's only programming that excites you, or seemingly unrelated parts of life as well.
I suspect that finding a worthwhile path forward depends a lot on that detail.
I'm nothing close to a trained psychologist or counselor, but maybe a good first step is to determine if it's only programming that excites you, or seemingly unrelated parts of life as well.
I suspect that finding a worthwhile path forward depends a lot on that detail.
This has happened to me after a 20 year career and successful side business. Instead of fight it, I accept it and look at it as a natural part of growth, not stagnation. It opens up the possibility for you to take your job for what it is—a job—and explore new hobbies and interests.
If nothing is interesting, take a break from trying and play video games or watch tv for a year. Youre going to bump up against a lot of potential interests, and one might naturally take off.
For me, that new interest has been electronic music production. And I don’t follow any predefined path. Instead, I just go in the direction it takes me. For now, that’s been developing 4 bar loops and hoarding gear. Those are the antithesis of a productive producer.
But I remember how I got started in software collecting warez and keygens without any real rhyme or reason. That lead to me wanting to know how software was cracked, built, then how businesses and careers were built, learned a lot about leadership as a byproduct of having a career, etc.
So, while it might sound cliche, open your mind and follow your heart and don’t be too hard on yourself. It’s ok to relax, breathe, and enjoy the life you’ve carved out for yourself so far.
If nothing is interesting, take a break from trying and play video games or watch tv for a year. Youre going to bump up against a lot of potential interests, and one might naturally take off.
For me, that new interest has been electronic music production. And I don’t follow any predefined path. Instead, I just go in the direction it takes me. For now, that’s been developing 4 bar loops and hoarding gear. Those are the antithesis of a productive producer.
But I remember how I got started in software collecting warez and keygens without any real rhyme or reason. That lead to me wanting to know how software was cracked, built, then how businesses and careers were built, learned a lot about leadership as a byproduct of having a career, etc.
So, while it might sound cliche, open your mind and follow your heart and don’t be too hard on yourself. It’s ok to relax, breathe, and enjoy the life you’ve carved out for yourself so far.
> For me, that new interest has been electronic music production
This is exactly what I came to after also losing interest in my job defining who I am. I came to the same conclusion, work is just work. I do it purely for the money and fulfilment in mentoring. The products we make seem entirely meta to the overall human cause. Modern life has little meaning, it's so abstract. You rarely ever get to see any use in the output of your efforts.
Creating something for yourself, something real and tangible, is one way of finding something small and finding that satisfaction one misses in the toil of daily life.
This is exactly what I came to after also losing interest in my job defining who I am. I came to the same conclusion, work is just work. I do it purely for the money and fulfilment in mentoring. The products we make seem entirely meta to the overall human cause. Modern life has little meaning, it's so abstract. You rarely ever get to see any use in the output of your efforts.
Creating something for yourself, something real and tangible, is one way of finding something small and finding that satisfaction one misses in the toil of daily life.
Well said. And that's great thing about a hobby - you don't have to be good at it, nor does it have to make you money.
>...open your mind and follow your heart...
I can't emphasize this enough. Your career shouldn't define you. It should be a byproduct of who you are. Not the defining trait. It's hard to realize this at the beginning when you are trying to climb the ladder but after 20 years you begin to realize:
In the end you die, if you didn't live a life you want, it's your fault. Open your heart, get in touch with that inner kid, do hobbies and things that excite you. It's ok to change.
I can't emphasize this enough. Your career shouldn't define you. It should be a byproduct of who you are. Not the defining trait. It's hard to realize this at the beginning when you are trying to climb the ladder but after 20 years you begin to realize:
In the end you die, if you didn't live a life you want, it's your fault. Open your heart, get in touch with that inner kid, do hobbies and things that excite you. It's ok to change.
> Instead of fight it, I accept it and look at it as a natural part of growth, not stagnation. It opens up the possibility for you to take your job for what it is—a job—and explore new hobbies and interests.
I know what you mean there, and I've gotten there a few years ago, but I'm still not entirely satisfied with my overall situation.
What I find is that as I get older and progress in my career, new "challenges" are things I never signed up for, and have no interest in.
I was rather satisfied with things as a junior and then mid level engineer. I was assigned tasks/projects, got them done, called it a day. The paycheck was already pretty good. I wasn't particularly interested in a promotion to senior, given how stressed out senior engineers seem to be. I had (and still have) no interest in taking on leadership roles, much less management. I already get anxious enough about my own responsibilities, so no, thanks, I don't want to be responsible for other peoples' actions as well.
It's all moot though. Despite having made the above clear to my managers, they promoted me to senior. And now whenever I try to retreat into doing individual, technical work, they throw the "that's not work suitable for your level" card at me. I'm being coerced into a leadership role to build an entirely new service, despite 1. having never built a service from the ground up, 2. having never been on a team that did it (thus being exposed to the decisions being made), and 3. having no particular interest in it. I'm expected to be the person who makes cross-team collaboration happen, despite not being a "people person." And I'm expected to do all that while mentoring younger team members, despite having no reasonable time to do so.
Companies pay lip service to the whole idea of helping you define your career goals and direction, but it only really applies to when you do what they have in mind for you.
I know what you mean there, and I've gotten there a few years ago, but I'm still not entirely satisfied with my overall situation.
What I find is that as I get older and progress in my career, new "challenges" are things I never signed up for, and have no interest in.
I was rather satisfied with things as a junior and then mid level engineer. I was assigned tasks/projects, got them done, called it a day. The paycheck was already pretty good. I wasn't particularly interested in a promotion to senior, given how stressed out senior engineers seem to be. I had (and still have) no interest in taking on leadership roles, much less management. I already get anxious enough about my own responsibilities, so no, thanks, I don't want to be responsible for other peoples' actions as well.
It's all moot though. Despite having made the above clear to my managers, they promoted me to senior. And now whenever I try to retreat into doing individual, technical work, they throw the "that's not work suitable for your level" card at me. I'm being coerced into a leadership role to build an entirely new service, despite 1. having never built a service from the ground up, 2. having never been on a team that did it (thus being exposed to the decisions being made), and 3. having no particular interest in it. I'm expected to be the person who makes cross-team collaboration happen, despite not being a "people person." And I'm expected to do all that while mentoring younger team members, despite having no reasonable time to do so.
Companies pay lip service to the whole idea of helping you define your career goals and direction, but it only really applies to when you do what they have in mind for you.
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> developing 4 bar loops and hoarding gear. Those are the antithesis of a productive producer.
Or philosophically, your personal choices on whatever takes your fancy are the reasons for working; they are a higher meaning to life than working to feed and house yourself.
Or philosophically, your personal choices on whatever takes your fancy are the reasons for working; they are a higher meaning to life than working to feed and house yourself.
Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. It sucks, I don't wish it on anyone. Highly recommend taking some significant time off. Like, off, off, not "I'm behind at work and behind on my hobby projects and behind on home maintenance and behind on my personal exercise goals, gonna take 24 personal hours Mon-Weds next week, I should be able to renovate my guest bath in that time, it's needed work for 3 years".
During that time, stop trying to be productive because you feel like you ought to. Wait until you feel like you want to. Read, take a walk, do some cooking, hang out with friends or family.
Gauge for yourself whether media consumption, especially during that time, is helping you relax or whether it's substituting both the motivation and reward for actually doing the thing you don't have the energy to do yourself. That was a big problem for me: We train our brains to reward us for accomplishing a cool thing with a boost of dopamine. Later, it optimizes the process to reward you earlier for just planning to do the thing - sketching, architecting, dreaming, writing task lists. Eventually, it gives you the same "I'm really proud of that accomplishment" reward for just watching someone on Youtube do it (you don't even have to look at all the off-camera drudge work).
Also, given the time of year, depending on your latitude, check for seasonal affective disorder as a potential antagonist of depression. Talk to a counselor, get some bright lights, bundle up and get outside if the sun is out, take some vitamin D supplements.
During that time, stop trying to be productive because you feel like you ought to. Wait until you feel like you want to. Read, take a walk, do some cooking, hang out with friends or family.
Gauge for yourself whether media consumption, especially during that time, is helping you relax or whether it's substituting both the motivation and reward for actually doing the thing you don't have the energy to do yourself. That was a big problem for me: We train our brains to reward us for accomplishing a cool thing with a boost of dopamine. Later, it optimizes the process to reward you earlier for just planning to do the thing - sketching, architecting, dreaming, writing task lists. Eventually, it gives you the same "I'm really proud of that accomplishment" reward for just watching someone on Youtube do it (you don't even have to look at all the off-camera drudge work).
Also, given the time of year, depending on your latitude, check for seasonal affective disorder as a potential antagonist of depression. Talk to a counselor, get some bright lights, bundle up and get outside if the sun is out, take some vitamin D supplements.
> Later, it optimizes the process to reward you earlier for just planning to do the thing - sketching, architecting, dreaming, writing task lists. Eventually, it gives you the same "I'm really proud of that accomplishment" reward for just watching someone on Youtube do it (you don't even have to look at all the off-camera drudge work).
I'm deep in the depths like OP and I can relate to this, like, a lot. Do you know of any literature or 'what to google for' regarding this sentiment/behavior?
I'm deep in the depths like OP and I can relate to this, like, a lot. Do you know of any literature or 'what to google for' regarding this sentiment/behavior?
Not exactly this behaviour, but somehow related: The Shallows by Nicholas Carr. Also this video: https://youtu.be/5B1YXRiN784
For search terms maybe: instant gratification, short term rewards, dopamine.
For search terms maybe: instant gratification, short term rewards, dopamine.
I personally think 90+% of the work in this industry is very boring. At this point many will say "well why are you working in this industry then"? Well I tried the alternatives, and they were way worse. I need money to survive in this world, and programming gives me the best bang for my buck. Most other industries require working longer hours doing less interesting work making less money with less freedom.
If it's really so bad that you're miserable, just take some time off. Either you'll find something else you enjoy doing more and leave programming for good, or you'll eventually be so bored (and broke) that programming might sound appealing again.
If it's really so bad that you're miserable, just take some time off. Either you'll find something else you enjoy doing more and leave programming for good, or you'll eventually be so bored (and broke) that programming might sound appealing again.
It boils down to perspective: Is the glass half full or half empty? Not the matter of fact is relevant to the individuum but their perspective (in the end how you feel about something is entirely in your mind). That's why it's always good to get to know the alternatives - maybe it changes your perspective.
Longer hours than IT? It seems the industry is known for working long hours to meet deadlines and of course on-call schedules.
My job before coding was working 12 hour days, 30 days at a time on a cement tug and barge. I'm never going back. I'll take all the on call you can give me.
I know tech leads who consistently work 11 hour days. Different kind of work though.
Were you hourly?
Were you hourly?
Daily. And it wasnt 12 on 12 off, it was 6 on 6 off 6 on 6 off, so you couldn't get good sleep
Ah, that sucks. I should have assumed as much since almost maritime work is not great until you get way up the chain.
Most hourly positions with longer hours are nice. I have a buddy in construction that would make great money with all the extra hours. Any salary or daily pay stuff is not cool.
Most hourly positions with longer hours are nice. I have a buddy in construction that would make great money with all the extra hours. Any salary or daily pay stuff is not cool.
I've never worked more than 10:30-5:30pm in a full-time job in this industry, and of those hours I'd say the real "work" part has generally never exceeded 4 hours/day. I don't even think it's really possible to do more than 4 hours/day of deeply focused, productive coding.
The job is not really stressful because at the end of the day, it's just software. Unless you're working on life-critical medical stuff or something, if the site goes down, nobody dies. Also I've never had an on-call job.
Name me an industry that pays more with less work and less stress.
The job is not really stressful because at the end of the day, it's just software. Unless you're working on life-critical medical stuff or something, if the site goes down, nobody dies. Also I've never had an on-call job.
Name me an industry that pays more with less work and less stress.
I'm in the same boat. After 14 years of software development, I am done. I've switched companies 4 times in the last year alone looking for something that will keep my interest alive. It's my first week at the newest one and I'm already uninterested. I even started helping out an acquaintance with a side business project that is really cool, but after a couple of weeks of that I'm no longer interested in it either.
It's not depression leading to this; it's the reverse. This problem is leading to depression! I get enjoyment from other things in my life (e.g. being outdoors, doing yard-work, building things). Just not programming/tech. It's been like this for several years now. I can go on vacation and soon as I get back, same issue... zero desire to work with technology.
With 4 mouths to feed and one kid approaching college age, switching to another field while retaining the same salary/benefits seems impossible.
It's not depression leading to this; it's the reverse. This problem is leading to depression! I get enjoyment from other things in my life (e.g. being outdoors, doing yard-work, building things). Just not programming/tech. It's been like this for several years now. I can go on vacation and soon as I get back, same issue... zero desire to work with technology.
With 4 mouths to feed and one kid approaching college age, switching to another field while retaining the same salary/benefits seems impossible.
A lot of these answers are about finding things other than programming, and I think that's great. But as some additional perspective- I believe I was in a similar position to you, and what saved my career was functional programming.
Basically I had grown really tired of solving every problem in the same way (create a new class, getters, setters... the same ol' object oriented stuff). And so I dove into Haskell which required new solutions to problems. And it made programming novel again for me. I was a beginner for the first time in over a decade; it was really challenging, and there were tons of new concepts that never popped up in the other mainstream languages.
The thing I loved was that it allowed and encouraged me to find the _best_ solution to a problem, as opposed to just 'something that works'.
Basically I had grown really tired of solving every problem in the same way (create a new class, getters, setters... the same ol' object oriented stuff). And so I dove into Haskell which required new solutions to problems. And it made programming novel again for me. I was a beginner for the first time in over a decade; it was really challenging, and there were tons of new concepts that never popped up in the other mainstream languages.
The thing I loved was that it allowed and encouraged me to find the _best_ solution to a problem, as opposed to just 'something that works'.
Was similar for me. The drawback is, once you get back your passion by finally understanding why many things have been so pointless without functional programming, your job options are now severely limited.
Same for me, learned Haskell a year ago.
I have to note that your options only feel more limited if you refuse to look back and acknowledge the "wrong" ways. Your job options were always numerous, you just filter out the unattractive ones, leaving them to the people who don't have that luxury :)
nthing this. I think I would have given up programming a few years ago if Haskell didn't exist. (Maybe I could have settled for OCaml or Clojure.) Probably I would have gone into management but I certainly wouldn't still be enjoying being an individual contributor!
I'd also like to reiterate your final paragraph, in case anyone misinterprets you and thinks that Haskell is just about novelty or doing things a "different" way. For me it's about doing things a way that actually makes any sense at all.
> The thing I loved was that it allowed and encouraged me to find the _best_ solution to a problem, as opposed to just 'something that works'.
I'd also like to reiterate your final paragraph, in case anyone misinterprets you and thinks that Haskell is just about novelty or doing things a "different" way. For me it's about doing things a way that actually makes any sense at all.
> The thing I loved was that it allowed and encouraged me to find the _best_ solution to a problem, as opposed to just 'something that works'.
I think quite a lot of people are going through a similar funk right now, and it could be the case that your lack of interest in programming is a symptom of all of this social distancing business. Even people who were not very social before the pandemic are starting to crack a bit, and unfortunately the usual remedies are not an option at the moment. The best thing to do is to speak to a professional if it’s really bothering you... i’m sure we all mean well here, but don’t listen to a bunch of idiots on a message board.
Very trickey question. I used to be at the same point, in my case logistics. I always came back to it, because quite frankly it is the only thing I am good at I can earn a living with. What helped for me, was two things:
1) See the logistics tasks I have as not "my" logistics, in other words getting some professional distance back I didn't realize I lost
2) Do it really for someone else, in my case, I turned consultant of sorts. That supports point 1), it also means I have a client now who hired for a clearly defined, concret task. So in a way, I am not simply doing it for myself
Especially the "not doing it for myself" part helped a lot. It prevented me from burning because I am less personally invested. And it also means, by doing for someone else, that I have an outside goal I can "serve".
Put in other words, not doing things because I want and I considered them cool solved my prioritiation issues. And doing for really someone else, solved my personal investment problem. For now at least.
EDIT: A hobby, how could I forget that. In my case, a 1982 Range Rover. Besides the engine and gearbox, I tore everything appart in the last 2.5 years. Never touched a car before that, so. Yeah, doing something completely different, completely new without the oal being money helped.
1) See the logistics tasks I have as not "my" logistics, in other words getting some professional distance back I didn't realize I lost
2) Do it really for someone else, in my case, I turned consultant of sorts. That supports point 1), it also means I have a client now who hired for a clearly defined, concret task. So in a way, I am not simply doing it for myself
Especially the "not doing it for myself" part helped a lot. It prevented me from burning because I am less personally invested. And it also means, by doing for someone else, that I have an outside goal I can "serve".
Put in other words, not doing things because I want and I considered them cool solved my prioritiation issues. And doing for really someone else, solved my personal investment problem. For now at least.
EDIT: A hobby, how could I forget that. In my case, a 1982 Range Rover. Besides the engine and gearbox, I tore everything appart in the last 2.5 years. Never touched a car before that, so. Yeah, doing something completely different, completely new without the oal being money helped.
Feynman's story on how he lost the spark for physics and got it back might be instructive:
https://www.mymoneyblog.com/richard-feynman-fighting-burnout...
If I were translating that, pick small interesting projects. If you start to worry that you're not going to complete it, break it down into a set of smaller interesting subproblems and only commit yourself to 1-2 of them and then re-evaluate when you finish.
There is also the possibility that you're at the point where pursuing something other than programming might be more meaningful to you.
https://www.mymoneyblog.com/richard-feynman-fighting-burnout...
If I were translating that, pick small interesting projects. If you start to worry that you're not going to complete it, break it down into a set of smaller interesting subproblems and only commit yourself to 1-2 of them and then re-evaluate when you finish.
There is also the possibility that you're at the point where pursuing something other than programming might be more meaningful to you.
I'm kind of in the same boat. I've got plenty of project ideas, but when I start thinking about working on one of them I invariably get to the "What's the point?" stage.
Now, normally I'd say we need to push through this. But I think instead we need to give ourselves some space given the current circumstances: We're in the middle of a global pandemic and in the US we're in the middle of some political and epistemological upheaval that's actually making the pandemic worse for us than it is for many other countries. So maybe we need to figure this out for a bit?
I find myself reading a lot of history and philosophy now trying to figure out how we got here - that seems to be where my drive is at this point. Maybe take a break. Don't try to force it - it's like falling asleep, the harder you try, the more impossible it becomes.
Now, normally I'd say we need to push through this. But I think instead we need to give ourselves some space given the current circumstances: We're in the middle of a global pandemic and in the US we're in the middle of some political and epistemological upheaval that's actually making the pandemic worse for us than it is for many other countries. So maybe we need to figure this out for a bit?
I find myself reading a lot of history and philosophy now trying to figure out how we got here - that seems to be where my drive is at this point. Maybe take a break. Don't try to force it - it's like falling asleep, the harder you try, the more impossible it becomes.
I've read both a lot of Less Wrong (and the R:AZ book) and Soviet dialectical materialism (Marx and Lenin), and I've found a surprisingly large amount of overlap in the philosophical foundations. The way the notion of truth is handled, with the material world being the single-level territory, and the (conscious?) mind being the multi-level map of it, is surprisingly reinvigorating to read - especially when considering how different those sources are, separated by almost a century.
The insights about the epistemologically different modes of thinking of various groups of people under widely unequal material circumstances does shed quite a spotlight on both the "how we got here" question, and, more importanly the "where to go from here" one.
"Don't try to force it - it's like falling asleep" advice reminded me of vipassana practice - it does usually clear up my brooding, so that the "What's the point?" question dissolves into clarity of the source of intent in general. While still on the topic of history and politics - "Meditations On Moloch" by Scott Alexander is a great re-read.
The insights about the epistemologically different modes of thinking of various groups of people under widely unequal material circumstances does shed quite a spotlight on both the "how we got here" question, and, more importanly the "where to go from here" one.
"Don't try to force it - it's like falling asleep" advice reminded me of vipassana practice - it does usually clear up my brooding, so that the "What's the point?" question dissolves into clarity of the source of intent in general. While still on the topic of history and politics - "Meditations On Moloch" by Scott Alexander is a great re-read.
>I find myself reading a lot of history and philosophy now trying to figure out how we got here
I recommend Why Nations Fail if you haven't read it and that's your goal.
I recommend Why Nations Fail if you haven't read it and that's your goal.
Hey, cheer up. I went through this a couple of times and I’m in the industry for 20+ years. The last time it happened, it lasted for weeks. Weeks of not knowing how to put focus on simpliest programming tasks which would normally take 5 minutes. Sleeping all day, mood totally down.
The best thing to do is to accept it. Don’t fight it. Ignore the feeling that things „have to be done”. This only creates additional stress and spirals out the problems. Go out (if you can), watch tv, play video games, talk to a therapist. Do something different. When the stress regarding software comes, tell yourself that it does not matter, it’s normal and you are ignoring it is for the better. Don’t force yourself because that leads to a burnout. The process of getting to a better state of mind can take weeks. Or months. It’s okay. You will come out stronger.
Don’t cross off talking to a therapist. A talk to someone who doesn’t know you and is qualified can be a miracle.
The best thing to do is to accept it. Don’t fight it. Ignore the feeling that things „have to be done”. This only creates additional stress and spirals out the problems. Go out (if you can), watch tv, play video games, talk to a therapist. Do something different. When the stress regarding software comes, tell yourself that it does not matter, it’s normal and you are ignoring it is for the better. Don’t force yourself because that leads to a burnout. The process of getting to a better state of mind can take weeks. Or months. It’s okay. You will come out stronger.
Don’t cross off talking to a therapist. A talk to someone who doesn’t know you and is qualified can be a miracle.
I used to be a "grand project dreamer", believe me I know the feeling.
The feeling of reluctance I think is from your subconscious questioning whether half the stuff you think you need is actually required and then you're stuck wondering what exactly you do need whether you realise it or not.
I've found it much easier to avoid "architecting" and instead within a project pick 4-5 different starting points and try to incrementally move them along in parallel, that could mean doing a minor tweak in one section or building something more substantial in another.
This lets you gradually incrementally build things and when you get stuck you can move onto another area and give yourself some time to think about it, you don't end up giving up because you're only working on one thing and that one thing has to be done before the next thing and if you can't figure it out you'll never make any progress and arghhh!!
The feeling of reluctance I think is from your subconscious questioning whether half the stuff you think you need is actually required and then you're stuck wondering what exactly you do need whether you realise it or not.
I've found it much easier to avoid "architecting" and instead within a project pick 4-5 different starting points and try to incrementally move them along in parallel, that could mean doing a minor tweak in one section or building something more substantial in another.
This lets you gradually incrementally build things and when you get stuck you can move onto another area and give yourself some time to think about it, you don't end up giving up because you're only working on one thing and that one thing has to be done before the next thing and if you can't figure it out you'll never make any progress and arghhh!!
I do this strategy, and I recommend it.
I vote we call it Yak Farming as it's designed as a way to get around the problem of Yak Shaving.
You simply build a series of inter-related and mutually beneficial but somewhat loosely coupled projects under the umbrella of one over-arching project. Because each project makes the others more valuable, if you get stuck need to do some Yak Shaving on one particular project and it's burning out your enthusiasm, you can just switch to another of the projects and make progress there which increases the value of the previous project to a point where it's now worth it to go back and finish what you were doing.
Yak Farming.
I vote we call it Yak Farming as it's designed as a way to get around the problem of Yak Shaving.
You simply build a series of inter-related and mutually beneficial but somewhat loosely coupled projects under the umbrella of one over-arching project. Because each project makes the others more valuable, if you get stuck need to do some Yak Shaving on one particular project and it's burning out your enthusiasm, you can just switch to another of the projects and make progress there which increases the value of the previous project to a point where it's now worth it to go back and finish what you were doing.
Yak Farming.
yes, you've articulated it better than I did. It took me a long time to come to shift to this way of working and it made a huge difference to my productivity and stress levels.
There is a reason people say “solve your own problems”. It’s a great motivation. You can’t put off real problems because they get bigger. You have to be the one who solves it, and you’ll solve it in the simplest, laziest way so you can get on with your “projects”. We often solve problems without even realising it and those are successful, creative, useful applications to share with others.
You can just watch tv, that’s ok. Maybe you’ll realise there’s an annoying sound the tv makes at 4 o’clock when it’s raining and it annoys you so much you investigate it and discover something we didn’t know about signal processing. Maybe you’ll jam your window open with a shoe so you can have a cool breeze whilst gaming and then discover a whole business in window jamming.
Count your unfinished projects as a great source of experience points for the next event in life.
And if you really want to “do” something then try make the dumbest, most useless, incomplete, consumption led piece of software you can. Prove that image of yourself to the rest of us. Make the most broken software ever written. I’d love to see it.
Need little, want less, forget the rules, be untroubled.
You can just watch tv, that’s ok. Maybe you’ll realise there’s an annoying sound the tv makes at 4 o’clock when it’s raining and it annoys you so much you investigate it and discover something we didn’t know about signal processing. Maybe you’ll jam your window open with a shoe so you can have a cool breeze whilst gaming and then discover a whole business in window jamming.
Count your unfinished projects as a great source of experience points for the next event in life.
And if you really want to “do” something then try make the dumbest, most useless, incomplete, consumption led piece of software you can. Prove that image of yourself to the rest of us. Make the most broken software ever written. I’d love to see it.
Need little, want less, forget the rules, be untroubled.
Maybe try something new related to programming? I can think of a few things that might be interesting (no idea if you've already done them though):
* Try a language like Racket. It can feel really liberating, because it's so easy to just get boilerplate stuff out of the way. Beautiful Racket is a nice book to kinda give you a feel for it. [1]
* Maybe try doing homebrew development for an old game console? Gives you a taste of embedded development in a fun way, and on a platform that you know isn't going to change. Also gives you the opportunity to learn things like drawing graphics or making music. Because the hardware is limited, it kinda takes the pressure off in terms of being able to draw well etc.
If this interests you at all, maybe pick one of the older/lower powered systems, like NES or Gameboy.
[1] https://beautifulracket.com/
EDIT: Actually, something that's done wonders for my motivation/drive is exercise, eating well, and intermittent fasting. I have much more "mental" energy these days, and motivation just seems to come with it.
* Try a language like Racket. It can feel really liberating, because it's so easy to just get boilerplate stuff out of the way. Beautiful Racket is a nice book to kinda give you a feel for it. [1]
* Maybe try doing homebrew development for an old game console? Gives you a taste of embedded development in a fun way, and on a platform that you know isn't going to change. Also gives you the opportunity to learn things like drawing graphics or making music. Because the hardware is limited, it kinda takes the pressure off in terms of being able to draw well etc.
If this interests you at all, maybe pick one of the older/lower powered systems, like NES or Gameboy.
[1] https://beautifulracket.com/
EDIT: Actually, something that's done wonders for my motivation/drive is exercise, eating well, and intermittent fasting. I have much more "mental" energy these days, and motivation just seems to come with it.
Had become jaded developer myself after 15 years of programming and racket brought back the spark I once had. I highly recommend it to others. And I see some complaints on Racket being slow or the DR Racket IDE is not up to par with other modern IDEs but that really misses the point of why racket or scheme/lisp is all about.
Sounds like disappointment over perceived lack of progress on big ambitious projects is a reoccurring theme.
It can certainly be frustrating to be confronted with a big gap between vision and execution; I know it well.
Two suggestions:
1. Specific to making progress, have self appreciation for any progress you do make. Even if the progress is battling annoying boilerplate. Even if the results appear to be a failure in the moment. Reward yourself for any action towards your goals. If you undertake a persistent campaign of rewarding any progress, no matter how small, and forgiving any perceived failure you will almost certainly get beyond your current state of mind.
2. In the bigger picture, sounds like you need something to center your life around. I spent 6 months meditating weekly and exploring Buddhist philosophies from a secular perspective. This was very helpful to me. There’s lots of videos and writing on the web that you could start with if this sounds appealing, and once the pandemic is over visit a local meditation center and try group meditation, the vibe of compassion is awesome. There’s all kinds of things, find something that speaks to you. It could be as simple as a hobby.
Back to big projects, you are just one person, love yourself for your ideas, accept that projects may take a long time to get done as an individual, and that pursuing your projects may lead you somewhere different than you thought. It is definitely worth seeing where things go.
It can certainly be frustrating to be confronted with a big gap between vision and execution; I know it well.
Two suggestions:
1. Specific to making progress, have self appreciation for any progress you do make. Even if the progress is battling annoying boilerplate. Even if the results appear to be a failure in the moment. Reward yourself for any action towards your goals. If you undertake a persistent campaign of rewarding any progress, no matter how small, and forgiving any perceived failure you will almost certainly get beyond your current state of mind.
2. In the bigger picture, sounds like you need something to center your life around. I spent 6 months meditating weekly and exploring Buddhist philosophies from a secular perspective. This was very helpful to me. There’s lots of videos and writing on the web that you could start with if this sounds appealing, and once the pandemic is over visit a local meditation center and try group meditation, the vibe of compassion is awesome. There’s all kinds of things, find something that speaks to you. It could be as simple as a hobby.
Back to big projects, you are just one person, love yourself for your ideas, accept that projects may take a long time to get done as an individual, and that pursuing your projects may lead you somewhere different than you thought. It is definitely worth seeing where things go.
> "I sat down the other night to get started in a grand project I’ve been getting so excited about and I just couldn’t and this seems to be pretty common lately. The projects I dream up are super cool feats of hacker ability"
"I keep dreaming up these high status projects and imagining all the people who will respect me and all the money I'll make, nothing to do with code or fun or problem solving. They need skills I don't have and work I don't want to do. Then I beat myself up about my inability to reach these goals, then quit, what do?"
Realise that what you're dreaming of isn't /programming/ it's /being a superhero/. "I keep imagining distressed women screaming for my attention and then I fly in and lift the falling skyscraper off their cat, and they marry me, but then I go to the gym and can't even lift 1Kg because the distance between my expectations and reality is making it very clear that my expectations are a fantasy, and I just don't want to face that".
Happened to Physicist Richard Feynman, incidentally, all the high expectations of him to produce great things. He ended up saying screw everyone and their expectations, he was only going to work on fun things, and started thinking about wobbling plates of custard in the cafeteria instead.
Answer: Same answer every spiritual mystic has said for generations - kill your ego, lose your self esteem, die into being nobody, let the world go hang itself on its high status, and please yourself with some work and problems you enjoy working on[1], not work and problems you think you should enjoy working on. Let the boilerplate come from your fingers at work, because it earns you food, and don't stress over it.
[1] that is specifically and worth calling out, things that when you do it, you feel good. And NOT things that you habitually do to try and feel good, but which don't feel good, and NOT things in the category called feel-good things. Specifically, things that when you are doing them, raise good feelings within you. e.g. don't watch a sci-fi film because you always used to enjoy watching sci-fi and feel that you ought to enjoy it again, if you aren't enjoying it. Don't watch a feel-good romantic comedy that you hate because society calls it "feel good". Do ... thing that catches your attention a little but feels stupid or embarassing or a waste of time so you'd normally dismiss it, but actually feels mildly nice.
"I keep dreaming up these high status projects and imagining all the people who will respect me and all the money I'll make, nothing to do with code or fun or problem solving. They need skills I don't have and work I don't want to do. Then I beat myself up about my inability to reach these goals, then quit, what do?"
Realise that what you're dreaming of isn't /programming/ it's /being a superhero/. "I keep imagining distressed women screaming for my attention and then I fly in and lift the falling skyscraper off their cat, and they marry me, but then I go to the gym and can't even lift 1Kg because the distance between my expectations and reality is making it very clear that my expectations are a fantasy, and I just don't want to face that".
Happened to Physicist Richard Feynman, incidentally, all the high expectations of him to produce great things. He ended up saying screw everyone and their expectations, he was only going to work on fun things, and started thinking about wobbling plates of custard in the cafeteria instead.
Answer: Same answer every spiritual mystic has said for generations - kill your ego, lose your self esteem, die into being nobody, let the world go hang itself on its high status, and please yourself with some work and problems you enjoy working on[1], not work and problems you think you should enjoy working on. Let the boilerplate come from your fingers at work, because it earns you food, and don't stress over it.
[1] that is specifically and worth calling out, things that when you do it, you feel good. And NOT things that you habitually do to try and feel good, but which don't feel good, and NOT things in the category called feel-good things. Specifically, things that when you are doing them, raise good feelings within you. e.g. don't watch a sci-fi film because you always used to enjoy watching sci-fi and feel that you ought to enjoy it again, if you aren't enjoying it. Don't watch a feel-good romantic comedy that you hate because society calls it "feel good". Do ... thing that catches your attention a little but feels stupid or embarassing or a waste of time so you'd normally dismiss it, but actually feels mildly nice.
Very insightful post.
Just want to add that trying to analyse away any fear, uncertainty, and doubt one feels is a mugs game.
If you find something you enjoy working on, keep doing it.
If you don't, still keep doing stuff and enjoy the act of "doing stuff".
To pause is the little death that leads to total obliteration (with apologies to Frank Herbert)
Just want to add that trying to analyse away any fear, uncertainty, and doubt one feels is a mugs game.
If you find something you enjoy working on, keep doing it.
If you don't, still keep doing stuff and enjoy the act of "doing stuff".
To pause is the little death that leads to total obliteration (with apologies to Frank Herbert)
Great post! Couldn't have said it better.
You don't talk a lot about your job. "You lost interest", but apart than that, how is it going?
Maybe you just need some rest. I know everybody is hellbent on doing side projects and moonlighting over here, but seriously, you most likely don't need that to live a full life or even put food on the table and pay the bills.
These days, I start with the premise that everybody is exhausted and feel like shit and that's normal. Hang in there baby, things will get better.
Maybe you just need some rest. I know everybody is hellbent on doing side projects and moonlighting over here, but seriously, you most likely don't need that to live a full life or even put food on the table and pay the bills.
These days, I start with the premise that everybody is exhausted and feel like shit and that's normal. Hang in there baby, things will get better.
When you first start off programming (or any other skill based activity), you don't know what you don't know. That is, when starting a project you don't realize at the beginning how much effort goes into every subsection to bring the project to completion.
Then, once you get a few projects done, you start building up skill. So what was hard then starts becoming easier -- which opens up the door to new things that are hard now, but were impossible earlier. However you are able to still approach each project, because past experience taught you that you are getting better at the craft with each project. Which has a motivating factor (similar how watching your fitness stats is motivation to keep going to the gym, or being to play more complicated pieces on an instrument is motivation to keep practicing).
So what happens with programming, or fitness activities, or playing an instrument, is that after a period of time your skills start to level off. You don't get measurable more skill each time you practice, so that removes one of the motivation factors. And you "know" that you will make some mistakes that you keep making (hitting the wrong note on a piano, going down a wrong design path requiring scrapping a big chunk of code that you've worked on for several days, etc). That anticipation of failure is a de-motivation factor. And on top of that, even if you know you won't make much of a mistake, since you are doing "the same thing" you've done hundreds of times (ran the same mile, played the same song, wrote the same boilerplate), it gets extremely boring.
So the trick is to find acceptance that this may be the natural course of how things work. The human brain craves novelty, but you can also find comfort in familiarity also. Just treat programming like you would other things in life, that is a means to an end, and not the end itself. Think of other chores you do daily, such as the daily drive into the office, cooking dinner, showering / personal grooming (how many kids hate remembering to brush their teeth, and how eventually it just becomes a part of your daily habit).
Then, once you get a few projects done, you start building up skill. So what was hard then starts becoming easier -- which opens up the door to new things that are hard now, but were impossible earlier. However you are able to still approach each project, because past experience taught you that you are getting better at the craft with each project. Which has a motivating factor (similar how watching your fitness stats is motivation to keep going to the gym, or being to play more complicated pieces on an instrument is motivation to keep practicing).
So what happens with programming, or fitness activities, or playing an instrument, is that after a period of time your skills start to level off. You don't get measurable more skill each time you practice, so that removes one of the motivation factors. And you "know" that you will make some mistakes that you keep making (hitting the wrong note on a piano, going down a wrong design path requiring scrapping a big chunk of code that you've worked on for several days, etc). That anticipation of failure is a de-motivation factor. And on top of that, even if you know you won't make much of a mistake, since you are doing "the same thing" you've done hundreds of times (ran the same mile, played the same song, wrote the same boilerplate), it gets extremely boring.
So the trick is to find acceptance that this may be the natural course of how things work. The human brain craves novelty, but you can also find comfort in familiarity also. Just treat programming like you would other things in life, that is a means to an end, and not the end itself. Think of other chores you do daily, such as the daily drive into the office, cooking dinner, showering / personal grooming (how many kids hate remembering to brush their teeth, and how eventually it just becomes a part of your daily habit).
I think you're dealing with more than one thing here, including maybe some unrealistic expectations. It's hard to have a hobby that is the same as your profession. A hobby often needs to function as a relief from the pressures and annoying bullshit of work, and an outlet for pent-up creative energy. When programming starts to feel like pressure and bullshit at work, programming at home will make you feel like there's no escape. When there's no pent-up creative energy, and you keep trying to squeeze some out, it will make you feel inadequate and unworthy.
It also sounds like one aspect of programming you enjoy is the ego gratification. Unfortunately, this is very hard to manage as you become more experienced and more sophisticated. It is easy for your standards to go up and impossible for your increase in capacity to keep up. Early in your career, you can learn something really cool and put it into practice right away, because you are learning small things. As you develop, your knowledge compounds and accelerates, and you start to realize that there are big, cool projects that you could implement in their entirety with high confidence. It's kind of a curse, to be able to look at a complex web app, or a 3d game, and know that you could implement the entire thing, top to bottom, in a way that would be perfectly tailored to your desires and would arm you with a bunch of really cool skills, except it would take you years of hard work. Something like that only works as a hobby if you enjoy the process. If you're only in it for the results, get ready to exercise an extreme amount of patience and humility... and that doesn't sound like it makes for a very fun hobby, either.
As for what you should do now, I think that for a while you should put your productive energy into your career. Forget about hobbies, just play video games or rewatch old movies or whatever the hell you feel like doing when you're tired and lazy. Accept the challenge of being the best you can at your job. Turn it into a game. Let winning this game be your creative, productive output. It's okay. You don't have to be doing something elevated or glamorous at every single point in your life. Obsessing about where the present moment will lead you is a recipe for depression and stagnation. Sometimes it's more important to be engaged in what you're doing than to think about how cool it is or where it will lead.
It also sounds like one aspect of programming you enjoy is the ego gratification. Unfortunately, this is very hard to manage as you become more experienced and more sophisticated. It is easy for your standards to go up and impossible for your increase in capacity to keep up. Early in your career, you can learn something really cool and put it into practice right away, because you are learning small things. As you develop, your knowledge compounds and accelerates, and you start to realize that there are big, cool projects that you could implement in their entirety with high confidence. It's kind of a curse, to be able to look at a complex web app, or a 3d game, and know that you could implement the entire thing, top to bottom, in a way that would be perfectly tailored to your desires and would arm you with a bunch of really cool skills, except it would take you years of hard work. Something like that only works as a hobby if you enjoy the process. If you're only in it for the results, get ready to exercise an extreme amount of patience and humility... and that doesn't sound like it makes for a very fun hobby, either.
As for what you should do now, I think that for a while you should put your productive energy into your career. Forget about hobbies, just play video games or rewatch old movies or whatever the hell you feel like doing when you're tired and lazy. Accept the challenge of being the best you can at your job. Turn it into a game. Let winning this game be your creative, productive output. It's okay. You don't have to be doing something elevated or glamorous at every single point in your life. Obsessing about where the present moment will lead you is a recipe for depression and stagnation. Sometimes it's more important to be engaged in what you're doing than to think about how cool it is or where it will lead.
Thank you for writing that, i think something like that is happening to me and it really helps to see others going trough the same thing, makes me feel less alone.
> It is easy for your standards to go up and impossible for your increase in capacity to keep up.
> It also sounds like one aspect of programming you enjoy is the ego gratification.
these are especially things i can relate very well.
> It is easy for your standards to go up and impossible for your increase in capacity to keep up.
> It also sounds like one aspect of programming you enjoy is the ego gratification.
these are especially things i can relate very well.
I wanted to add my thanks as well but it would just repeat this comment.
> It is easy for your standards to go up and impossible for your increase in capacity to keep up.
I feel gutpunched by this in particular. I know I'm a "better" programmer than I used to be, but I feel like it handicaps me when I try to hack something together for my own enjoyment.
> It is easy for your standards to go up and impossible for your increase in capacity to keep up.
I feel gutpunched by this in particular. I know I'm a "better" programmer than I used to be, but I feel like it handicaps me when I try to hack something together for my own enjoyment.
This deserves some kind of literary prize.
Once you have grown and learned the 80-90% of stuff that is easy, exciting, and has quick returns, all that is left is the hard stuff. And the hard stuff is boring---it's always boring. It's the nitty gritty details that only a passionate specialist loves.
That being said, it sounds like what you're missing is a group to work on projects with. You don't have to take the lead on programming, instead you can lead a small group of people in the right direction while taking the lead on a product and learn a lot there, or take on sales and marketing. That's exactly how I work on side projects, I have a group of 2-3 great engineers with a diverse set of interests, and I work more on the business side and get brought in for architecture/stuck-on-a-hard-problem types of things.
Beyond even changing, it's incredibly hard to be motivated and push a project forward alone. Having a group makes it a lot easier, and I'd imagine that's a big part of why there are almost no VC backed solo founders.
That being said, it sounds like what you're missing is a group to work on projects with. You don't have to take the lead on programming, instead you can lead a small group of people in the right direction while taking the lead on a product and learn a lot there, or take on sales and marketing. That's exactly how I work on side projects, I have a group of 2-3 great engineers with a diverse set of interests, and I work more on the business side and get brought in for architecture/stuck-on-a-hard-problem types of things.
Beyond even changing, it's incredibly hard to be motivated and push a project forward alone. Having a group makes it a lot easier, and I'd imagine that's a big part of why there are almost no VC backed solo founders.
I had exactly the same problem. My job is basically same CRUD over and over, sometimes spiked with some legacy-code-wtf-moments.
Then I got slowly into eletronic music and one day I got idea I could code my own VST instruments. This opened whole new chapter of software development for me.
My advice is - do something very different in your pasttime. I still don't find web development to be interesting field. But weirdly enough, I started some small webs for myself (social network, POS) and I find rewsults useful and interesting.
Then I got slowly into eletronic music and one day I got idea I could code my own VST instruments. This opened whole new chapter of software development for me.
My advice is - do something very different in your pasttime. I still don't find web development to be interesting field. But weirdly enough, I started some small webs for myself (social network, POS) and I find rewsults useful and interesting.
Find what gives you meaning right now.
A profound shift in thinking came to me after reading Frankl's Man's Search For Meaning. Specifically - meaning chooses you.
When I started out as a programmer, I was so excited about learning how to code, how different languages work, memory management, and other concepts like that. My meaning then was becoming a good programmer. A few years later that changed. I see meaning in utilizing my skills to build product that matter to people.
Maybe programming was your passion in its own right, and maybe that's no longer true. What helps me is stopping to look for meaning in the same place I am used to, and re-ask the question - what do I want to be doing? What is important to me? What will give me meaning? And then go and do it for a while and see what happens.
My best wishes and good luck to you, friend.
A profound shift in thinking came to me after reading Frankl's Man's Search For Meaning. Specifically - meaning chooses you.
When I started out as a programmer, I was so excited about learning how to code, how different languages work, memory management, and other concepts like that. My meaning then was becoming a good programmer. A few years later that changed. I see meaning in utilizing my skills to build product that matter to people.
Maybe programming was your passion in its own right, and maybe that's no longer true. What helps me is stopping to look for meaning in the same place I am used to, and re-ask the question - what do I want to be doing? What is important to me? What will give me meaning? And then go and do it for a while and see what happens.
My best wishes and good luck to you, friend.
Everyone reaches the point where they just want to live in a yurt and milk goats eventually.
It's been a fucking rough year or five.
It's been a fucking rough year or five.
Thanks for telling it like it is. The advice in this thread is really lacking. Maybe it's because the real answer is there is no advice and we just have to suck it up?
"Take a 3 month break and come back to it". I'm back. I don't want to do programming anymore.
"Ok you should play video games and not do anything productive, then come back to it". Cool, just finished Days Gone and i'm replaying BioShock. I don't want to do programming anymore.
"You're just burned out and depressed, find a therapist, take medicine, etc.". Did that. I'm on Welbutrin and my therapist says I should look into changing fields, maybe going back to school. Easy right? I don't want to do programming anymore.
"It's all mental, meditate". I sit outside on my deck every weekend and just enjoy the outdoors. I still don't want to write programs.
"Buy a motorcycle". I already have one and I love it, but I still don't want to write programs.
After many years of feeling this way and getting the answers like the above, any answer not in the realm of "you can move to X field with relative ease and maintain the same salary/benefits" doesn't feel like it's going to help. It seems my only option is to just accept defeat
"Take a 3 month break and come back to it". I'm back. I don't want to do programming anymore.
"Ok you should play video games and not do anything productive, then come back to it". Cool, just finished Days Gone and i'm replaying BioShock. I don't want to do programming anymore.
"You're just burned out and depressed, find a therapist, take medicine, etc.". Did that. I'm on Welbutrin and my therapist says I should look into changing fields, maybe going back to school. Easy right? I don't want to do programming anymore.
"It's all mental, meditate". I sit outside on my deck every weekend and just enjoy the outdoors. I still don't want to write programs.
"Buy a motorcycle". I already have one and I love it, but I still don't want to write programs.
After many years of feeling this way and getting the answers like the above, any answer not in the realm of "you can move to X field with relative ease and maintain the same salary/benefits" doesn't feel like it's going to help. It seems my only option is to just accept defeat
[deleted]
I always say this to people when I get stressed out with programming projects. "I'm just gonna quit and go work on a farm."
This kind of sounds like depression or anxiety, which most everyone has to some extent now. Loss of interest in normal activities is a key symptom. I've heard that mental health professionals are still trying to figure out how much to pathologize the very bad but mostly normal responses people are having to 2020.
Everyone that's having issues should talk to their doctor and/or see a therapist. They know what they are doing.
Everyone that's having issues should talk to their doctor and/or see a therapist. They know what they are doing.
> Loss of interest in normal activities
The problem with this form of diagnosis is that everything the OP mentioned is in relation to one single activity: programming. It's entirely possible (and should be considered, if the rest of their life is still good) that their interests have simply shifted away from programming without a mental disorder to go along with it.
That said, yeah, take it up with a professional, if only to rule depression out.
The problem with this form of diagnosis is that everything the OP mentioned is in relation to one single activity: programming. It's entirely possible (and should be considered, if the rest of their life is still good) that their interests have simply shifted away from programming without a mental disorder to go along with it.
That said, yeah, take it up with a professional, if only to rule depression out.
You can also buy a motorcycle. It's cheaper that therapists in the long term.
I'm fairly sure a motorcycle could have not had the discussions with me I had with my therapist.
The whole point of therapy is not that they are superhuman who can fix the world. The point is having another person, whom you trust, and who has experience of how to help people, to take a good look at you. They discuss with they see, and suggest simple things you could do. The thing is - nothing is stopping you doing those things without a therapist. But you likely are not aware what the specific single things to help you are. Otherwise you would be doing those, and not needing a therapist.
The whole point of therapy is not that they are superhuman who can fix the world. The point is having another person, whom you trust, and who has experience of how to help people, to take a good look at you. They discuss with they see, and suggest simple things you could do. The thing is - nothing is stopping you doing those things without a therapist. But you likely are not aware what the specific single things to help you are. Otherwise you would be doing those, and not needing a therapist.
Riding motorcycle is kinda meditative atleast for me. I can ride hours (with slow speed). I don't plan trips ahead, just start with map and keep exploring green areas. On ride, I love to observe everything without involving also I like to feel my bike and listening its engine.
I guess gist is, do something you enjoy for hours without any goals or any pressure. It should make you tired at end of day. And then you will start feeling good.
In covid-era, luckily I picked up cooking as hobby and survived.
God, they should make a work week of 4 days. I am really jealous of europeans (spicifically scandinavian countries ) where work-life balance is highly prioritized
I guess gist is, do something you enjoy for hours without any goals or any pressure. It should make you tired at end of day. And then you will start feeling good.
In covid-era, luckily I picked up cooking as hobby and survived.
God, they should make a work week of 4 days. I am really jealous of europeans (spicifically scandinavian countries ) where work-life balance is highly prioritized
As someone who has motorcycled in the past...
Naw. It ain't going to be cheaper. More adrenaline causing perhaps, but not cheaper. Between buying accessories, upgrades, and different styles, you'll be paying them off for awhile.
One a more serious note: Riding a motorcycle won't cure depression. Depression, on the other hand, can make you not want to motorcycle anymore.
Naw. It ain't going to be cheaper. More adrenaline causing perhaps, but not cheaper. Between buying accessories, upgrades, and different styles, you'll be paying them off for awhile.
One a more serious note: Riding a motorcycle won't cure depression. Depression, on the other hand, can make you not want to motorcycle anymore.
I think people substitute a lot of these "flow-inducing activities" (require attention and alertness, often adrenaline-inducing too) because it temporarily stops the mental habit loops that fuel depression. It's hard to think about all the "should'ves" while dodging Escalade-driving, phone-distracted people on the highway or struggling on a crux move on some climbing route knowing your last piece of gear is 3-4m below you.
It's a nice escape, but I definitely think dealing with these feelings directly by talking them out with a therapist / journaling / meditation is the only way to deal with them effectively (although it's still hard)
It's a nice escape, but I definitely think dealing with these feelings directly by talking them out with a therapist / journaling / meditation is the only way to deal with them effectively (although it's still hard)
This is better advice than most will admit.
If it's still too expensive, maybe try a
Most people only need therapy for a few months. Very few need long-term therapy.
Likely need to tackle from multiple sides:
1. Physical: Sleep more. No screen days. Diet changes. Sport.
2. Emotional: [1] CBT. Get rid of perfectionism and huge romantic /heroic ideas that make you suffer. "burnout is heartbreak". Choose way way smaller projects: You commit, finish and get a good feeling from feedback within a day.
[1] https://www.quirk.fyi/distortions
1. Physical: Sleep more. No screen days. Diet changes. Sport.
2. Emotional: [1] CBT. Get rid of perfectionism and huge romantic /heroic ideas that make you suffer. "burnout is heartbreak". Choose way way smaller projects: You commit, finish and get a good feeling from feedback within a day.
[1] https://www.quirk.fyi/distortions
I made a couple of small PRs to an open source library I use and they were great little mini projects that were very rewarding and useful! I felt better after what has been a long time working on a project that has consistently failed to be delivered. It felt like actually, no, I am a decent developer and I do enjoy it.
I have mild depression that comes and goes in long waves and this is a perfect description of how I feel when I sit at the keyboard during the downs. One tiny way I've found around it is to focus on coding things that will help me in the future - ie: some very small feature of the project I'm working on - make it as portable and good as possible, so that when I next need to do something similar it's 99% done. What works about this is a) the focus on a small thing helps distract me from the big thing that my brain is feeling overwhelmed / uninspired by, and b) every time I achieve one of these small things, it gives me a little lift. Plus as a bonus I have loads of helpful code written for future projects.
The only other thing I can suggest is find a creative outlet that you enjoy, and isn't the thing you do for your job. I went back to making music for the same reason. I'm not very good at it, but then being good at it isn't the goal - just the satisfaction of creating.
The only other thing I can suggest is find a creative outlet that you enjoy, and isn't the thing you do for your job. I went back to making music for the same reason. I'm not very good at it, but then being good at it isn't the goal - just the satisfaction of creating.
Programming/software engineering is just work. In the grand scheme of things, I feel that it is some kind of privilege that few occupations give you, to ask such a question. “I have been a construction worker for twenty-five years, and I am bored. What now?” “I work as a nurse in a hospital, but I lost interest in this line of work. What now?”
Definitely. I think though that programming is at least partly creative endeavour, and thus it can be harder to do it without any motivation whatsoever.
Happened to me. Switched to digital marketing. I really like it. I still code sometimes but it's never more than 20% of my week. Had to learn basic design, UX, CMSs, CRMS, CDPs, marketing automation etc.
Long story short, there is a huge shortage of competent digital folks in the marketing world. I really like the work and the pay is similar.
Long story short, there is a huge shortage of competent digital folks in the marketing world. I really like the work and the pay is similar.
Stop looking for grand plans and do something simple and fun. Yes, there are dozens of complex ideas I would love to work on, but they involve infrastructure and bootstrapping and a dozen other things that are useful, but not fun.
AdventOfCode, on the other hand, is completely worthless in the grand scheme of things, but has been fun as hell and provides me with a sense of accomplishment every day.
I’ve also got a Pimoroni environment sensor that was a lot of fun to set up and gives me fun graphs every day. Sure it provides (as far as I’m concerned) the same temperature and humidity reading as the $5 device I got at a random store, but it provided something for me to do that was relatively easy, involved an emerging interest for me (hardware), and in the end who doesn’t love graphs?
AdventOfCode, on the other hand, is completely worthless in the grand scheme of things, but has been fun as hell and provides me with a sense of accomplishment every day.
I’ve also got a Pimoroni environment sensor that was a lot of fun to set up and gives me fun graphs every day. Sure it provides (as far as I’m concerned) the same temperature and humidity reading as the $5 device I got at a random store, but it provided something for me to do that was relatively easy, involved an emerging interest for me (hardware), and in the end who doesn’t love graphs?
On the topic of AdventOfCode, I also find it fun (I am using Raku/Perl6). Unfortunately I have fallen behind a few days.
I checked the LeaderBoard out of curiosity. These guys are submitting answers <5 minutes! It takes me that long just to read the problem and come to some sort of understanding.
Amazing!
I wonder if any of them streaming this stuff?
I checked the LeaderBoard out of curiosity. These guys are submitting answers <5 minutes! It takes me that long just to read the problem and come to some sort of understanding.
Amazing!
I wonder if any of them streaming this stuff?
Yes, plenty stream.
https://www.reddit.com/r/adventofcode/wiki/streamers - Jonathan Paulson is one who makes the leaderboard.
and look in the big daily answers threads like https://old.reddit.com/r/adventofcode/comments/k9lfwj/2020_d... (make sure to load lots of comments, Reddit doesn't show all of them), and search for video/stream/twitch/youtube.
https://www.reddit.com/r/adventofcode/wiki/streamers - Jonathan Paulson is one who makes the leaderboard.
and look in the big daily answers threads like https://old.reddit.com/r/adventofcode/comments/k9lfwj/2020_d... (make sure to load lots of comments, Reddit doesn't show all of them), and search for video/stream/twitch/youtube.
Hmmm sir are you trying to be productive or trying to have a good time, it looks to me that your attachment to the outcome (of accomplishing xyz something) is hindering you in enjoying coding.
If its painting, you decide beforehand if its a commissioned work or not, and if not who the fuck cares if you finish it on 10 years because you keep getting distracted on your damn strokes and your dogs keep chewing your brush handles.
You may not finish that noncommissioned painting at all, but i guess cherishing each and every stroke of your brush and those moments with your dog is what matters.
If its painting, you decide beforehand if its a commissioned work or not, and if not who the fuck cares if you finish it on 10 years because you keep getting distracted on your damn strokes and your dogs keep chewing your brush handles.
You may not finish that noncommissioned painting at all, but i guess cherishing each and every stroke of your brush and those moments with your dog is what matters.
How familiar are you with the ML family of programming languages? If the answer is "not at all", that might be the rabbit hole you are looking for... it'll take you places.
I recommend F#.
You seem to be concerned with... delivery. I find that the prospect of starting a project that may never get completed is a showstopper for me and so I've let go the idea of ever achieving anything a couple years back. You might discover things are perfectly fine like that.
I recommend F#.
You seem to be concerned with... delivery. I find that the prospect of starting a project that may never get completed is a showstopper for me and so I've let go the idea of ever achieving anything a couple years back. You might discover things are perfectly fine like that.
I was asking myself if I was destined to write for-loops for the unforseen future. Echoing Edward Kmett, "Haskell is the reason I am still a programmer today."
https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/1tdkrx/review_of_h...
https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/1tdkrx/review_of_h...
When I feel that way, I know I need a long vacation.
> I sat down the other night to get started in a grand project I’ve been getting so excited about ... The projects I dream up are super cool feats of hacker ability ... I’m going to be stuck screwing around with the most trivial boilerplate crap.
But obviously you are creative and come up with ideas. Probably you should be more picky in which ideas to pursue and which not. Personally I like grand, rabbit hole like projects. I think they are most fun when the time-result curve has early plateaus but also continues to go up later, i.e. already after working a day you have a proof-of-concept and after week or so, you already have something you like. I found such projects quite enjoyable in the past. It's no fun when even after a year you're still at 30% and the whole thing is only usable at >= 80%.
That said, I think there are also fun mini projects and it doesn't even have to be a running software. It could be Infrastructure as code or just a sketch of a library.
But obviously you are creative and come up with ideas. Probably you should be more picky in which ideas to pursue and which not. Personally I like grand, rabbit hole like projects. I think they are most fun when the time-result curve has early plateaus but also continues to go up later, i.e. already after working a day you have a proof-of-concept and after week or so, you already have something you like. I found such projects quite enjoyable in the past. It's no fun when even after a year you're still at 30% and the whole thing is only usable at >= 80%.
That said, I think there are also fun mini projects and it doesn't even have to be a running software. It could be Infrastructure as code or just a sketch of a library.
I'm going to keep it very simple; tell yourself you're not going to program for two whole weeks. You may feel uncomfortable letting yourself go, but it will give you a much needed break and you will come back more energized.
Speaking a bit more anecdotally, what worked for me when I facing a similar problem was shutting off the computer immediately after work and allowing myself to relax and prioritize other hobbies. I was watching more documentaries and vlogs, as well as going outside and hiking on the weekends as opposed to being bunkered down at my desk. This opened my eyes to what there really is in life, and I now view programming almost completely differently as a result, but in a sustainable, healthy way. I slowly built my passion back up, but not as compulsively as before. I don't program just to program anymore, which actually makes me more efficient.
I know your struggle and I wish you the best. Accept you need time off and it will get so much better.
Speaking a bit more anecdotally, what worked for me when I facing a similar problem was shutting off the computer immediately after work and allowing myself to relax and prioritize other hobbies. I was watching more documentaries and vlogs, as well as going outside and hiking on the weekends as opposed to being bunkered down at my desk. This opened my eyes to what there really is in life, and I now view programming almost completely differently as a result, but in a sustainable, healthy way. I slowly built my passion back up, but not as compulsively as before. I don't program just to program anymore, which actually makes me more efficient.
I know your struggle and I wish you the best. Accept you need time off and it will get so much better.
> tell yourself you're not going to program for two whole weeks.
Two weeks. Ten working days. You can't be serious. Three months minimum. OP needs to zoom out for perspective and that takes time.
Two weeks. Ten working days. You can't be serious. Three months minimum. OP needs to zoom out for perspective and that takes time.
That’s a great point. And upon reflection, I realized the timeframe is unique to the person. Maybe it’s two weeks for some people, and maybe it’s a year for others. I think the common denominator, though, is that you’ll know when you’re getting that passion back, whenever it may be.
Give yourself permission to not be excited about things you used to. It's okay. There is nothing wrong with you. This can happen. This is normal for a lot of people. If you're comfortable and not starving, take it easy for as long as you need. Freeing yourself from worry may lead to some great insights and enlightenment. If not, no big deal.
Sometimes you just need a break. Something that worked for me was taking some time off and not putting pressure on myself to get back to it. It gave me the freedom to relax and not think that I was failing because I wasn't doing it. Eventually I wanted to do it again, and have ever since.
For me it was writing but I think its translatable.
For me it was writing but I think its translatable.
I was in a very similar spot about a year ago. I decided to take a sabbatical. Just recently I have found my interest in programming returning. I was just really burnt out. Early on in the burnout I seriously questioned if I could ever program again, and now I've been coding full time and really enjoying it again.
How long were you on your sabbatical before the interest returned? A year?
About 3.5 months. From there I gradually ramped up back to full time work over a couple weeks or so.
From what you wrote I get the sense that you may be underestimating the time, effort and money often required to make software of a certain size so that when those facts start becoming apparent they are a blocker to you continuing.
I have been there. Where every project involved grand architecture or lofty feature ideas, both of which are easy to imagine but harder to put into action. Which in my case caused and utter lack of velocity, and the closure that comes with finshing something, for my side projects.
My way of getting out of this never ending cycle was to narrow the scope as much as I could, painfully so. All the way down to either weekend projects or even something that only takes a few hours.
Just as a simple starting off point I would recommend looking into "Project Euler", just to get the cycle of starting, finishing, dopamine hit going.
I have been there. Where every project involved grand architecture or lofty feature ideas, both of which are easy to imagine but harder to put into action. Which in my case caused and utter lack of velocity, and the closure that comes with finshing something, for my side projects.
My way of getting out of this never ending cycle was to narrow the scope as much as I could, painfully so. All the way down to either weekend projects or even something that only takes a few hours.
Just as a simple starting off point I would recommend looking into "Project Euler", just to get the cycle of starting, finishing, dopamine hit going.
I was in the same boat. I used to love the technical aspects of programming, but eventually it just turned into a grind.
My solution was to move into management. This is not the right path for everybody, since it's basically a completely different set of skills even if you're still on a software engineering team. And it's a hard job. But so far for me, it's been a good change.
It doesn't have to be management. Maybe it's product, or support, something else. The point is, you've likely got some skills that are related to getting software products out the door, there's probably a way to translate that into a non-technical role, if that sounds interesting to you.
I would also second what others said about burnout or depression. For me it was anxiety. Not a bad idea to talk to your doctor or a mental health professional.
My solution was to move into management. This is not the right path for everybody, since it's basically a completely different set of skills even if you're still on a software engineering team. And it's a hard job. But so far for me, it's been a good change.
It doesn't have to be management. Maybe it's product, or support, something else. The point is, you've likely got some skills that are related to getting software products out the door, there's probably a way to translate that into a non-technical role, if that sounds interesting to you.
I would also second what others said about burnout or depression. For me it was anxiety. Not a bad idea to talk to your doctor or a mental health professional.
The problem seems to be that the reward is too far down the line to maintain your interest, and any obstacles or slow starts only make that recede further away. Best ways I can think of combating this is to pick small setups with quicker payoffs as mentioned in another comment, or learn to enjoy the process.
Blogging about your journey is one way of doing that. Even if the setup is tedious, once you have it and document & publish it, it can give a sense on completion and satisfaction.
Another thing I often do is prototype an idea using something more familiar or with much restricted scope at first. The key thing is to go from success to success however small the steps. Building up to one grand success only works if you are committed to a vision through all the preamble, obstacles, delays, and distractions.
Blogging about your journey is one way of doing that. Even if the setup is tedious, once you have it and document & publish it, it can give a sense on completion and satisfaction.
Another thing I often do is prototype an idea using something more familiar or with much restricted scope at first. The key thing is to go from success to success however small the steps. Building up to one grand success only works if you are committed to a vision through all the preamble, obstacles, delays, and distractions.
I'm a relatively new programmer, but I've felt the way you have at least a little. Work just drained the enjoyment out of programming. What helped me is to get back to my side projects BUT to start really small. Pick a small project, even just a day or weekend build. For me, that sense of accomplishment, even though so many other people have made so much more amazing stuff than me, it made remember why I love programming. And when I start to get bored, I just force myself to watch a tutorial or two or add one small feature, and I get reminded again.
Of course, it could be you need to find a completely different hobby to fulfil you. Only you can say what position you're in, whether you just need to reignite your passion for programming or whether it's gone for good.
Of course, it could be you need to find a completely different hobby to fulfil you. Only you can say what position you're in, whether you just need to reignite your passion for programming or whether it's gone for good.
All I can say is I went through the exact same thing. I used to love sitting down at the keyboard and churning out code on a project I was excited about. Slowly but surely I started programming less and was not as excited about jumping into projects as I used to be.
For me, the problem was Alcohol. I was drinking more alcohol than I ever had in the past and it, for some reason I do not know, was causing me to not find the some enjoyment in things especially programming.
So, I realized this and stopped drinking alcohol and I have now been working on projects non stop in my free time and am enjoying programming as much as I ever had.
In all, I would say don't be too hard on yourself. You are still the same person that loved programming. I think you need to take a step back and see what else in your life has changed.
For me, the problem was Alcohol. I was drinking more alcohol than I ever had in the past and it, for some reason I do not know, was causing me to not find the some enjoyment in things especially programming.
So, I realized this and stopped drinking alcohol and I have now been working on projects non stop in my free time and am enjoying programming as much as I ever had.
In all, I would say don't be too hard on yourself. You are still the same person that loved programming. I think you need to take a step back and see what else in your life has changed.
> I sat down the other night to get started in a grand project I’ve been getting so excited about and I just couldn’t and this seems to be pretty common lately.
I find it amazing that people can program full time and then want to go home and program even more. I enjoy programming too, but I want some variety in my life, and perhaps even get out of my chair from time to time.
If you're not motivated to work constantly at it, join the club. There are lots of us out here.
Side note: I actually started to find my day job tedious, too, and then got stuck in bed bored with COVID for a week. After that boredom, I actually started to miss it again. A long digital detox couldn't hurt -- allowing yourself to feel actually bored for an extended period of time, without any screens.
I find it amazing that people can program full time and then want to go home and program even more. I enjoy programming too, but I want some variety in my life, and perhaps even get out of my chair from time to time.
If you're not motivated to work constantly at it, join the club. There are lots of us out here.
Side note: I actually started to find my day job tedious, too, and then got stuck in bed bored with COVID for a week. After that boredom, I actually started to miss it again. A long digital detox couldn't hurt -- allowing yourself to feel actually bored for an extended period of time, without any screens.
In terms of the projects, one way that I help myself with that type of thing is to just sit down and build the interesting part standalone (if possible). Just work through the hard part in raw language of choice, skip the boilerplate, project setup, assumption that anybody else but you is ever going to look at it and see if you can make it do the thing that you think you can make it do.
Get to the other stuff later if you decide to pursue it further, but the fun is often translating what's in your brain to code even in it's simplest form. Very few people sit around dreaming up ideas and just can't wait...to write a bunch of tests and setup a CI.
Get to the other stuff later if you decide to pursue it further, but the fun is often translating what's in your brain to code even in it's simplest form. Very few people sit around dreaming up ideas and just can't wait...to write a bunch of tests and setup a CI.
If you have the time or resources, try doing something that interests you in programming that doesn't have any "super cool feats of hacker ability" or commercial value. It might be more artistic or maybe just silly, but the value of expressing yourself for your own needs can help give you a bit of inspiration and feel back in the groove. Manipulating a computer should serve you first, whether that's with something you like or for your job.
Outside of that, be sure to take care of yourself. You're more than just your ability to type and watch a screen light up. Rewatching Kiki's Delivery Service helps in your situation too.
Outside of that, be sure to take care of yourself. You're more than just your ability to type and watch a screen light up. Rewatching Kiki's Delivery Service helps in your situation too.
It's always possible that your weren't that into programming first place, but also some jobs/projects/people just suck and may have given you a bad look into the field.
Your options are pretty straightforward:
1. Press on with programming, perhaps find another job or sub-field.
2. Do something else.
Like so many other things (and like your past projects, it seems) the devils in the details. There are a million ways to go about either option. Figuring things like this out is basically what life is. There is is a good chance you'll find a good path from here and far from now look back at this point as a inflection point on your life, where you took a turn for the better.
Your options are pretty straightforward:
1. Press on with programming, perhaps find another job or sub-field.
2. Do something else.
Like so many other things (and like your past projects, it seems) the devils in the details. There are a million ways to go about either option. Figuring things like this out is basically what life is. There is is a good chance you'll find a good path from here and far from now look back at this point as a inflection point on your life, where you took a turn for the better.
I recommend to go easy on yourself and expect less. Break stuff down into the tiniest of bites. Today I’ll install webpack and check out some of its options. That’s it for today. Tomorrow I’ll try to compile a single index.js hello world file etc. Get a tiny momentum going, enjoy getting less done but consistently.
Then choose projects that don’t need complicated stacks. I recently did a birthday app purely front end and purely in tech I know .
So go easy on yourself and break things down into bites. Take time off as much as you need from side projects. Or some weeks maybe just watch videos on some interesting projects and don’t code. Get inspired that way.
Good luck!
Then choose projects that don’t need complicated stacks. I recently did a birthday app purely front end and purely in tech I know .
So go easy on yourself and break things down into bites. Take time off as much as you need from side projects. Or some weeks maybe just watch videos on some interesting projects and don’t code. Get inspired that way.
Good luck!
I quit programming once. I was 18; lots of distractions. The situation didn't last very long, and had hasn't happened since.
Boilerplate code is conquered through, in the order of least desirable to better:
- manual external code generation
- automated external code generation that repeats itself in each build
- automated internal code generation: macros
You don't want to be manually creating repetitive content with small variations; that's what computers are for.
You can regard boilerplate as challenge: how small can I get the specification of this? And then work on the generator from that specification to the boilerplate. The boilerplate is still boring, but the generator can have fun bits in it.
Boilerplate code is conquered through, in the order of least desirable to better:
- manual external code generation
- automated external code generation that repeats itself in each build
- automated internal code generation: macros
You don't want to be manually creating repetitive content with small variations; that's what computers are for.
You can regard boilerplate as challenge: how small can I get the specification of this? And then work on the generator from that specification to the boilerplate. The boilerplate is still boring, but the generator can have fun bits in it.
You've evolved. programming is nice but not necessarily the most "humanly fulfilling" of all thing. It can be very lonely and "dry" so at some point you may find you took all you have to take from this field and move to jobs that bring different human experience.
Try new things: entrepreneur, conference, product manager, even sales. i'm not saying it's necessarily an easy switch but the reality is that you may not have choice. your body is telling you something.
Or maybe you should just do a round trip around the world and meet exciting uncommon people...
Try new things: entrepreneur, conference, product manager, even sales. i'm not saying it's necessarily an easy switch but the reality is that you may not have choice. your body is telling you something.
Or maybe you should just do a round trip around the world and meet exciting uncommon people...
One problem I recently noticed was that I was feeling down staring at all the metrics related to my projects.
I'd obsessively look at my downloads, conversions, page views and what have you.
This in no way was helping my work, but it was bringing me down because I was comparing with all the people who had "made it" already. Couple days I decided to stop that. For all those moments I'd rather read a book or play with the kids or listen to the wife. Feeling a bit better already to be honest, and interestingly somehow... free.
I'd obsessively look at my downloads, conversions, page views and what have you.
This in no way was helping my work, but it was bringing me down because I was comparing with all the people who had "made it" already. Couple days I decided to stop that. For all those moments I'd rather read a book or play with the kids or listen to the wife. Feeling a bit better already to be honest, and interestingly somehow... free.
Some thoughts
- we are in a pandemic, everyone and their friend are stressed and disengaged. Don’t be hard on yourself
- Chip away at your problem or task slowly. Celebrate tiny wins, I just got that tiny function to work, YaY
- A grand project takes time. One often underestimates the time needed to do a task. Break it into really tiny bite sized items.
- consider a different measure of success. Take time to understand deeply the root cause of all failures. Write about it in a daily journal.
- Creativity takes time and effort. Roadblocks are common, Enjoy the process.
- Chip away at your problem or task slowly. Celebrate tiny wins, I just got that tiny function to work, YaY
- A grand project takes time. One often underestimates the time needed to do a task. Break it into really tiny bite sized items.
- consider a different measure of success. Take time to understand deeply the root cause of all failures. Write about it in a daily journal.
- Creativity takes time and effort. Roadblocks are common, Enjoy the process.
As others note you may be suffering from burnout, but there's another possible diagnosis: coder's block.
Heed the warnings of burnout and depression, but if that's not the case, then try something else entirely for awhile. For me, it was getting away from the screen and setting up a small woodworking workshop in the garage.
If you work all day in software while also surviving 2020, then do what you can to get away from devices every day. You sound like a creative person, so do something in the physical world.
Heed the warnings of burnout and depression, but if that's not the case, then try something else entirely for awhile. For me, it was getting away from the screen and setting up a small woodworking workshop in the garage.
If you work all day in software while also surviving 2020, then do what you can to get away from devices every day. You sound like a creative person, so do something in the physical world.
For what it's worth, it isn't just you. Work is a tiresome, inescapable drag and I'd rather be doing almost anything else. If circumstances permitted, I would.
Like others have said in this thread, this is your story and you're on your way finding what you really want to do.
Quitting everything that is not for you is the path you'll follow until you find your sparkling light, the magic in a project or a game or else you'd really like to pursue.
Pausing unnecessary work is good, and if you need to work for money, fully disconnect from it at the end of the day.
And start to find what makes you happy. Ask yourself a simple question. Move on.
Quitting everything that is not for you is the path you'll follow until you find your sparkling light, the magic in a project or a game or else you'd really like to pursue.
Pausing unnecessary work is good, and if you need to work for money, fully disconnect from it at the end of the day.
And start to find what makes you happy. Ask yourself a simple question. Move on.
> much of what’s involved in doing it just feels tedious and I know I’m going to be stuck screwing around with the most trivial boilerplate crap
I started to feel this way during my first internship in my sophomore year of college, after having been programming as a teenager for 4 years and then starting a CS major in college. It was a rude awakening. It led to years of depression and confusion. Finally I see the light through a potential career change
I started to feel this way during my first internship in my sophomore year of college, after having been programming as a teenager for 4 years and then starting a CS major in college. It was a rude awakening. It led to years of depression and confusion. Finally I see the light through a potential career change
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Oscar Wilde said: "Nothing can cure the soul but the senses, just as nothing can cure the senses but the soul". My reaction when I start feeling similar situation is to jump in real physical new situation (new sports, new outdoor exploration, DIY new manual project and similar). The key concept is take a break from intellectual and abstract things and dedicate to new physical and concrete ones.
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At some point, the spark may just go away. In my experience, even the most fascinating things in the world will loose their luster when you've made them your day job.
So long as it's not burnout (or depression, etc - a counselor is a great resource here), often the best thing to do is to find other things that excite you in the time you're not at work.
So long as it's not burnout (or depression, etc - a counselor is a great resource here), often the best thing to do is to find other things that excite you in the time you're not at work.
This is perfectly normal. Software programming is all but commoditized at this point unless you're in some super specialized field.
Personally, I've been considering some sort of sales role in the future. Those people seem to be way over paid, better paid than me anyway and I'm doing okay. Note, this would be at a major firm rather than a startup.
Personally, I've been considering some sort of sales role in the future. Those people seem to be way over paid, better paid than me anyway and I'm doing okay. Note, this would be at a major firm rather than a startup.
This is so true. I'm sick of hearing how well we developers have it when we cannot manage to get 6 digit salaries* yet I know people in sales that are making MILLIONS in commissions out of comfortable clients in the automotive industry.
* Speaking of the EU. And no, I don't want to hear about your Swiss salaries.
* Speaking of the EU. And no, I don't want to hear about your Swiss salaries.
This sounds like ennui brought on by burnout, perhaps not necessarily arising from physically manifested work but just overthinking. Totally empathize. Perhaps speak with a therapist to get started. It may not be about rediscovering your love for this again, but just a passion for something new. It does sound like some degree of turmoil there.
Sounds like burnout to me. Take a break, do other things (that have nothing to do with computers), change your job situation.
This is not an easy thing to shake off.
You may find that something simple and really only for yourself -- something where the comparison to others comes up, but doesn't matter so much -- could really help. I've found a surprising amount of amusement in adding Velcro patches to my backpacks, making watchbands with Hypalon and stuff like that.
You may find that something simple and really only for yourself -- something where the comparison to others comes up, but doesn't matter so much -- could really help. I've found a surprising amount of amusement in adding Velcro patches to my backpacks, making watchbands with Hypalon and stuff like that.
Sounds like me 7 years ago. I ended up quitting and going back to Uni. I got through Uni with a complete left of field job as a retained firefighter and now work as a Registered Nurse. No regrets, life is so much better now.
Only you can decide your next move but when you do, don't prevaricate just commit. Good luck.
Only you can decide your next move but when you do, don't prevaricate just commit. Good luck.
This is the thing I had. You described my exact feelings. I think this is the beginning of the burnout. What helped me was quitting my job and focusing on myself for a bit.
After about 6 months I was sick of not doing "my thing", then found a new project and now all is well. I regained my enthusiasm about programming.
I wish you luck
After about 6 months I was sick of not doing "my thing", then found a new project and now all is well. I regained my enthusiasm about programming.
I wish you luck
Maybe don't set yourself a "project" (quotes intentional). The idea of a "project" implies busy-work.
Do something completely out of left-field. For instance, learn APL. It's like reading a Jorge Luis Borges short story.
Why? Why not.
Rinse. Repeat. Relish in the non-projectness of it. After a while, joy might come back.
Do something completely out of left-field. For instance, learn APL. It's like reading a Jorge Luis Borges short story.
Why? Why not.
Rinse. Repeat. Relish in the non-projectness of it. After a while, joy might come back.
As a completely out-of-left-field suggestion, the next time you have a routine doctor visit, ask for a parathyroid hormone test. It's a cheap and quick blood test. This is probably not your issue, but if it's out of whack, that could easily explain your feelings. And it's fixable.
Don’t beat yourself up, there’s this weird belief in the programming world that to be good you have to have a deep passion for it, and want to spend every waking moment writing software and loving it. I can’t think of many careers that have that sort of pathology. You don’t hear about accountants doing books to unwind after a hard day at work, or removal men loading boxes into a truck as a hobby.
I think a lot of it comes from the fact a large proportion of us kind of fell into programming as a career, so we have memories of when it was just a hobby, and we spent endless hours learning new tricks and developing skills. Keep in mind, you’re probably still doing that. You’re doing it 8+ hours a day, five days a week. Of course you don’t feel like doing some more of it when you get home.
For my part, I’ve kind of accepted that I’m not going to be itching to write code for fun all the time. Every now and then something will tickle my fancy, and I’ll go down a rabbit hole learning about it for a bit, then I’ll drop it once I feel I’ve got what I want from it. Outside of those times I just do other things. I watch TV, I play computer games, I pick up hobbies which I’ll be obsessed with for a month or so, and then horde the things acquired for that hobby and let them gather dust for a year before I pick it back up again.
TLDR; your work is unlikely to be your hobby most of the time, and passive consumption is fine, especially when you professionally create things.
I think a lot of it comes from the fact a large proportion of us kind of fell into programming as a career, so we have memories of when it was just a hobby, and we spent endless hours learning new tricks and developing skills. Keep in mind, you’re probably still doing that. You’re doing it 8+ hours a day, five days a week. Of course you don’t feel like doing some more of it when you get home.
For my part, I’ve kind of accepted that I’m not going to be itching to write code for fun all the time. Every now and then something will tickle my fancy, and I’ll go down a rabbit hole learning about it for a bit, then I’ll drop it once I feel I’ve got what I want from it. Outside of those times I just do other things. I watch TV, I play computer games, I pick up hobbies which I’ll be obsessed with for a month or so, and then horde the things acquired for that hobby and let them gather dust for a year before I pick it back up again.
TLDR; your work is unlikely to be your hobby most of the time, and passive consumption is fine, especially when you professionally create things.
I just wish I could go back and do things differently. Ideally I'd have go into some other filed that's still interesting, pays relatively well and keep programming as a hobby.
Do whatever you feel like doing, or not doing.
I completely understand the background anxiety about not being in gear and moving towards something, but you don't control life. None of us do, and you're gonna be just fine.
Accept that there's nothing interesting right now, and just do whatever and go with the flow.
I completely understand the background anxiety about not being in gear and moving towards something, but you don't control life. None of us do, and you're gonna be just fine.
Accept that there's nothing interesting right now, and just do whatever and go with the flow.
This can be a result of burnout or frustration with the industry. This happened to me with infosec/hacking. Used to love it then felt so over it. Take a break from it atleast in your personal time with side projects take a break. Try get yourself up and healthy again.
why is this project so important to you?
why is it important that this project is built?
why have you decided working on this project is the most important use of your time?
why are you being hard on yourself for not working on this project?
why are you being hard on yourself for not being excited about programming in general?
I can relate and ITT a lot of our peers have gone through what you're going through. In my experience, hobby programming has become like a video game i've already played a million times, there's nothing new or fun, it's just rote and tedious.
Like other comments state, i have also opted to see this as a part of my own growth path, and making peace with this "loss of spark" has opened up many other doors and opportunities.
In short, there's more to life than programming.
why is it important that this project is built?
why have you decided working on this project is the most important use of your time?
why are you being hard on yourself for not working on this project?
why are you being hard on yourself for not being excited about programming in general?
I can relate and ITT a lot of our peers have gone through what you're going through. In my experience, hobby programming has become like a video game i've already played a million times, there's nothing new or fun, it's just rote and tedious.
Like other comments state, i have also opted to see this as a part of my own growth path, and making peace with this "loss of spark" has opened up many other doors and opportunities.
In short, there's more to life than programming.
Just a suggestion from my own experience. When you get an idea that is quite grand as you put it, have you tried partnering with couple of others and dive into the implementation of idea in that way? There is an added bonus there of socializing. My two cents
Switching to Clojure did it for me.
The fact that you need to spend time on “boilerplate crap” just means you’re not good enough to be able to quickly build that boilerplate crap.
This is also a sign of depression. Boilerplate crap is supposed to be easy - what makes you so negative about it?
This is also a sign of depression. Boilerplate crap is supposed to be easy - what makes you so negative about it?
Find someone to mentor or at least collaborate with someone that has the enthusiasm You have lost. Attitudes are contagious so they will give You the shot in the arm(Kick in the Pants?) that You need but be careful not to drag them down.
Sounds like you don't know how to work and tackle complex thing and you get overwhelmed. Find perhaps a partner to work with together or an accountability partner to keep each other in check if you prefer solo projects.
Meta, but what strikes me about these type of Ask HN's is : in 99% of the cases, the author does not participate in the discussion ( or answers raised questions ).
I'll reply to more this evening. For now, I'm picking off ones I think I can respond to without putting too much time into.
I’m in the same boat. I know it’s not depression because I’m overall happy, I cook and exercise and spend hours every day learning Chinese. I’m pretty sure it’s burnout.
If you are being demoralized by the initial hump of building things that you're enthusiastic about, you just need to change your mindset and the way you approach building them.
Don't be passionate about building something for other people, be passionate about something for yourself. Let your projects be extensions of that passion, with you as the intended customer. Not everything needs a fancy interface or a dozen use cases out of the box. Don't worry about scalability. Just try to find the joy in building things to help pursue your passion.
Don't be passionate about building something for other people, be passionate about something for yourself. Let your projects be extensions of that passion, with you as the intended customer. Not everything needs a fancy interface or a dozen use cases out of the box. Don't worry about scalability. Just try to find the joy in building things to help pursue your passion.
Have you thought about getting in to an architect or customer facing role? These roles are just as crucial to a business as programming is.
I was just about to type this. I've noticed as I get older both literally and career wise, I enjoy guiding where the code goes and letting more jr members work towards those goals while helping to improve their programming/soft eng practices. It's very rewarding.
God bless you. When a senior engineer is willing to help us early career folks it really helps.
Something I learned during my career is that if you support and mentor the competent driven youngsters, the good ones will look out for you when they pass you on the career ladder. Rather then treading on your fingers.
Do you find this to be one of the more rewarding parts of your career / day-to-day?
One of the things I regret most about my time in grad school is not mentoring younger students / interns. I was only frantically trying to prove how great I was (to salvage my downtrodden ego). I definitely don't want to avoid such mentoring opportunities in the future (once I finally work my way into such a position).
One of the things I regret most about my time in grad school is not mentoring younger students / interns. I was only frantically trying to prove how great I was (to salvage my downtrodden ego). I definitely don't want to avoid such mentoring opportunities in the future (once I finally work my way into such a position).
(sorry for slow reply)
Yes, I did find it rewarding, and latterly, more rewarding than many of my interactions with customers or managers. Especially when I learned things from the younger people.
Yes, I did find it rewarding, and latterly, more rewarding than many of my interactions with customers or managers. Especially when I learned things from the younger people.
I've thought about it, along with security (not the cool kind of security positions mind you, but one that pays well). It all seems more dreadful than software. Most people I know of in these positions spend entire days in meetings.
What stack of tools are you trying to use?
Personally, I think we hit the peak ease of use with VB6, Delphi, and HyperCard
It's all been getting harder ever since.
Personally, I think we hit the peak ease of use with VB6, Delphi, and HyperCard
It's all been getting harder ever since.
It really depends on the project. My most recent project has been an attempt to revive some old ISDN videophones I bought and integrating them with a more modern teleconference platform, so it involves all sorts of things, from whats basically a custom PBX to the video call app it will integrate with. For the core, PBX-like part, I was initially looking into Erlang, but after a while decided it might be easier to build on top of the JVM platform.
Oh... that's a huge project to tackle! And really dang cool if you can pull it off!
Do you know for sure the hardware even works? Can you get them to talk to each other? What kind of interface do they have? Do they do ethernet at all?
Do you know for sure the hardware even works? Can you get them to talk to each other? What kind of interface do they have? Do they do ethernet at all?
The most pragmatic advice is to hang in there, create and reach your FIRE goal, and then quit and do your most passionate hobbies.
I am currently at a high paying job... This is my plan but I don't know if I can make it. It feels like such a privileged position but I see and hear of sudden tragedies and wonder, is this really something I am comfortable doing if my last day is tomorrow? I guess I wish we could have the best of both worlds -- freedom to pursue what is interesting and financial stability. It seems possible, but difficult...
How does this work, as far as I understand FIRE targets typically have you making less than you did doing wage work. Typically enough to live moderately comfortable and support any family you might have. Hobbies can get expensive.
It is not you; it is the landscape of the programming world that has changed. Programmers get hooked on the craft because they can make stuff that scratches their own itches in a way that they are proud of. You could do that back when you thought it was adequate to make an adventure game that combined text with graphic images at a specific resolution that worked on your computer.
But then you became a student of the "right" way of doing things, and learned that it was suboptimal to just hard-code your strings into stacks of if/else blocks and had to figure out how to work them into a resource segment of your binary, and then along the way oh if you access them using the generated code functions that some IDEs will give you for those, then you get the ability to access them for different languages depending on...oh how DOES the runtime determine what language the user prefers? Hmmm let's look that up, so for versions 1.0-2.x it will look at the thread's current culture, hmmm how does THAT get set, and then what about 3.0+ okay let's just forget stupid translations for now, let's just make these graphics ready to work on different screen resolutions and retina displays so time to find out how to make SVGs and a UX library that will let you easily insert those when needed but oh the only good one is a full framework so you've got to refactor your whole code and provide a manifest file and hey what happens if I set this "Resolution" property to "UseNative" vs. "UseScreen"? What does that mean? Oh hello StackOverflow thank you and uh oh...I CAN use UseScreen but I will need to provide my own custom implementation of IScreenProvider which is almost as long as my original adventure game code, but thank you contributor, I can just copy your whole page of code into my own project. Since none of the names match my convention, I'll just spend the next hour renaming, retesting, and experimenting with which chaff I can cut out of this pretty-suspiciously-complicated class I just copied.
There is a certain class of programmer whom this kind of experience absolutely does not bother. I call them "zombies", but in the modern programming world, they are called "successful". They will tell you that they can easily do their job in a reasonable-length day, and have no desire to do programming projects at home.
But Excel, Doom, Linux, Mosaic...all these were not made by zombies. They were made by people like you, but in a time when there was no programming culture that made you worry that everything you were doing was wrong. It's just different now. That's probably why the world supplies 1000x as many programmers as back then, but contributes about 1/1000th the old output of really good stuff. Mostly we just provide the same stuff that was available 25 years ago, but on top of a different and more complicated set of foundational services.
But then you became a student of the "right" way of doing things, and learned that it was suboptimal to just hard-code your strings into stacks of if/else blocks and had to figure out how to work them into a resource segment of your binary, and then along the way oh if you access them using the generated code functions that some IDEs will give you for those, then you get the ability to access them for different languages depending on...oh how DOES the runtime determine what language the user prefers? Hmmm let's look that up, so for versions 1.0-2.x it will look at the thread's current culture, hmmm how does THAT get set, and then what about 3.0+ okay let's just forget stupid translations for now, let's just make these graphics ready to work on different screen resolutions and retina displays so time to find out how to make SVGs and a UX library that will let you easily insert those when needed but oh the only good one is a full framework so you've got to refactor your whole code and provide a manifest file and hey what happens if I set this "Resolution" property to "UseNative" vs. "UseScreen"? What does that mean? Oh hello StackOverflow thank you and uh oh...I CAN use UseScreen but I will need to provide my own custom implementation of IScreenProvider which is almost as long as my original adventure game code, but thank you contributor, I can just copy your whole page of code into my own project. Since none of the names match my convention, I'll just spend the next hour renaming, retesting, and experimenting with which chaff I can cut out of this pretty-suspiciously-complicated class I just copied.
There is a certain class of programmer whom this kind of experience absolutely does not bother. I call them "zombies", but in the modern programming world, they are called "successful". They will tell you that they can easily do their job in a reasonable-length day, and have no desire to do programming projects at home.
But Excel, Doom, Linux, Mosaic...all these were not made by zombies. They were made by people like you, but in a time when there was no programming culture that made you worry that everything you were doing was wrong. It's just different now. That's probably why the world supplies 1000x as many programmers as back then, but contributes about 1/1000th the old output of really good stuff. Mostly we just provide the same stuff that was available 25 years ago, but on top of a different and more complicated set of foundational services.
Hi the_only_law,
I don't want to suggest that what I have observed is scientific truth. Lately, I have been going to therapy regularly to try to work things out. I think it's helping, it certainly isn't hurting, to have a carved out time with somebody neutral to just think and talk.
Within that sentence is a pattern I have noticed in my life at least. I went through depressive periods a few times in my life for different reasons (and sometimes seemingly no reason). Divorce, losing a job and unexpected unemployment for a longer time frame, etc.
This created gaps in my career life, and each time I had a gap, there was carryover effect from the event that triggered it, which I needed to get through. The first few times it happened, I didn't realize that I actually needed the gap, to have time to process. I didn't realize that my brain, although depressed, well... it almost felt like it was doing what it was doing on purpose. Almost like, to force me to rest and sleep and sort of stagger aimlessly through the world for a while.
Only one time when this happened, before I was getting therapy, I saw that things were going sideways again and I was going to have a gap. This time, I prepared myself for it by telling myself that, if I was aimless, bored, did nothing, etc that it was OK. That I would allow myself to do that for a reasonable period of time until I started to feel better, and then after that I could do whatever I wanted.
I guess what I'm saying is, I let it happen consciously and gave myself time. I let that time be carved out to take a break.
After about 6 months went by, I am not sure what exactly changed, but something changed and I just started feeling better. It wasn't any one specific thing, but I was sitting there and started to get the natural inclination to just go start toying around again, this time even with some different and new subject areas, learning some new stuff and soon enough that transitioned into maybe starting my own business.
I was so excited and had begun the process, when, about two weeks into doing it, a job offer I knew nothing about appeared. I took a hard left turn and took the job because it sounded interesting, and my story continued.
I want to reintroduce the world to the word sabbatical [1] - rest from work. Carving out time, or taking advantage of the gaps. Rest with intent.
Depression is real. When life takes a toll there are chemical changes in the brain. Therapy and medication could be necessary and so if you need help, the advice is always to seek professional help. Don't suffer alone if you need help.
If, like me, you find a way to process it safely on your own, as I did in the last 6 month gap, you may find your way through.
If it is of any help, think on what a sabbatical is and if you can swing it, try it. It does not mean you must do nothing at all, take a break, learn something if you like, but don't push yourself to do anything that feels like "work".
I genuinely believe and have even considered starting some kind of non-profit support organization to help people learn about, organize and implement a sabbatical. I may still do it, after realizing that this is an area where we are really suffering as humans and where we need support.
Best wishes on your journey, be safe, and good luck.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbatical
I don't want to suggest that what I have observed is scientific truth. Lately, I have been going to therapy regularly to try to work things out. I think it's helping, it certainly isn't hurting, to have a carved out time with somebody neutral to just think and talk.
Within that sentence is a pattern I have noticed in my life at least. I went through depressive periods a few times in my life for different reasons (and sometimes seemingly no reason). Divorce, losing a job and unexpected unemployment for a longer time frame, etc.
This created gaps in my career life, and each time I had a gap, there was carryover effect from the event that triggered it, which I needed to get through. The first few times it happened, I didn't realize that I actually needed the gap, to have time to process. I didn't realize that my brain, although depressed, well... it almost felt like it was doing what it was doing on purpose. Almost like, to force me to rest and sleep and sort of stagger aimlessly through the world for a while.
Only one time when this happened, before I was getting therapy, I saw that things were going sideways again and I was going to have a gap. This time, I prepared myself for it by telling myself that, if I was aimless, bored, did nothing, etc that it was OK. That I would allow myself to do that for a reasonable period of time until I started to feel better, and then after that I could do whatever I wanted.
I guess what I'm saying is, I let it happen consciously and gave myself time. I let that time be carved out to take a break.
After about 6 months went by, I am not sure what exactly changed, but something changed and I just started feeling better. It wasn't any one specific thing, but I was sitting there and started to get the natural inclination to just go start toying around again, this time even with some different and new subject areas, learning some new stuff and soon enough that transitioned into maybe starting my own business.
I was so excited and had begun the process, when, about two weeks into doing it, a job offer I knew nothing about appeared. I took a hard left turn and took the job because it sounded interesting, and my story continued.
I want to reintroduce the world to the word sabbatical [1] - rest from work. Carving out time, or taking advantage of the gaps. Rest with intent.
Depression is real. When life takes a toll there are chemical changes in the brain. Therapy and medication could be necessary and so if you need help, the advice is always to seek professional help. Don't suffer alone if you need help.
If, like me, you find a way to process it safely on your own, as I did in the last 6 month gap, you may find your way through.
If it is of any help, think on what a sabbatical is and if you can swing it, try it. It does not mean you must do nothing at all, take a break, learn something if you like, but don't push yourself to do anything that feels like "work".
I genuinely believe and have even considered starting some kind of non-profit support organization to help people learn about, organize and implement a sabbatical. I may still do it, after realizing that this is an area where we are really suffering as humans and where we need support.
Best wishes on your journey, be safe, and good luck.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbatical
It is all mental in my experience. If you want that spark back, work your way back to the people you know who still have that spark. What separates you and them -- Why do they think that way? What thoughts are blocking you from thinking that way?
Become a high school technology/science teacher. Reassess in five years to see if you still hate programming.
Given the process required to obtain the credentials for that, might as well go into something interesting.
Many states offer emergency licensing to individuals with professional expertise. No coursework, etc. necessary.
I lost interest in programming until about two years ago, when I went freelance. My first (and last) contract involved knowing how to code, but no actual coding. After a few weeks, I started coding in my spare time again. It wasn't to keep myself employable. It just scratched an itch.
Now, I live from a website I built, and coding became one of my favourite hobbies again. I wake up, make pancakes, have coffee, put some good music on, and code until I've had enough. It's not work; it's my definition of a good day. I'm not trying to build a product, or my resume. I just work on whatever feels interesting.
There's an article that changed my perspective on programming [0]. It argues that an app can be something you make for the delight of a select few, like a home-cooked meal. I've made many home-cooked apps since then: achievements for my personal website [1], a timeline for my personal life [2], and lots of small improvements to other private projects.
I guess the lesson here is that programming is a great hobby, but programming for money can be a soul-crushing compromise. I think you'd hate any other hobby if you turned it into a full time job.
---
Every programmer occasionally, when nobody’s home, turns off the lights, pours a glass of scotch, puts on some light German electronica, and opens up a file on their computer. It’s a different file for every programmer. Sometimes they wrote it, sometimes they found it and knew they had to save it. They read over the lines, and weep at their beauty, then the tears turn bitter as they remember the rest of the files and the inevitable collapse of all that is good and true in the world.
This file is Good Code. It has sensible and consistent names for functions and variables. It’s concise. It doesn’t do anything obviously stupid. It has never had to live in the wild, or answer to a sales team. It does exactly one, mundane, specific thing, and it does it well. It was written by a single person, and never touched by another. It reads like poetry written by someone over thirty.
Every programmer starts out writing some perfect little snowflake like this. Then they’re told on Friday they need to have six hundred snowflakes written by Tuesday [3]
[0] https://www.robinsloan.com/notes/home-cooked-app/
[1] https://nicolasbouliane.com/achievements
[2] https://github.com/nicbou/backups
[3] https://www.stilldrinking.org/programming-sucks
Now, I live from a website I built, and coding became one of my favourite hobbies again. I wake up, make pancakes, have coffee, put some good music on, and code until I've had enough. It's not work; it's my definition of a good day. I'm not trying to build a product, or my resume. I just work on whatever feels interesting.
There's an article that changed my perspective on programming [0]. It argues that an app can be something you make for the delight of a select few, like a home-cooked meal. I've made many home-cooked apps since then: achievements for my personal website [1], a timeline for my personal life [2], and lots of small improvements to other private projects.
I guess the lesson here is that programming is a great hobby, but programming for money can be a soul-crushing compromise. I think you'd hate any other hobby if you turned it into a full time job.
---
Every programmer occasionally, when nobody’s home, turns off the lights, pours a glass of scotch, puts on some light German electronica, and opens up a file on their computer. It’s a different file for every programmer. Sometimes they wrote it, sometimes they found it and knew they had to save it. They read over the lines, and weep at their beauty, then the tears turn bitter as they remember the rest of the files and the inevitable collapse of all that is good and true in the world.
This file is Good Code. It has sensible and consistent names for functions and variables. It’s concise. It doesn’t do anything obviously stupid. It has never had to live in the wild, or answer to a sales team. It does exactly one, mundane, specific thing, and it does it well. It was written by a single person, and never touched by another. It reads like poetry written by someone over thirty.
Every programmer starts out writing some perfect little snowflake like this. Then they’re told on Friday they need to have six hundred snowflakes written by Tuesday [3]
[0] https://www.robinsloan.com/notes/home-cooked-app/
[1] https://nicolasbouliane.com/achievements
[2] https://github.com/nicbou/backups
[3] https://www.stilldrinking.org/programming-sucks
I hope you can see that you're not alone based on the myriad responses in this thread. Always a great read whenever it comes up.
Burnout goes back to one's childhood and more specifically its effect on how one define's one's ego and the attachment to it. Young children do not have any real intuition about how to navigate life and are thus beholden to the influences around them. Through seeking approval from these influences (parents, teachers, or even fictional characters), children begin the process of simulating what those influences will say or think of them in order to gain some sort of reward (one's parent saying they're proud of you) or avoid punishment.
The healthy form of this is people who still allow their true self to come into being amidst all of these influences and mental simulacrum they may have adopted while growing up. The few people who are lucky enough to have the stars align for this seem to just effortlessly glide from success to success (at least in my own very limited experience), though that isn't to say they're always great human beings. For example, one of my relatives was a real maverick in the field of anatomy and had myriad interests and hobbies that he pursued to semi-professional levels, but it turns out he was almost completely uninvolved as a parent and was quite the angry drunk until a few years I was born and I never knew until he passed.
Due to the immense pressure we all feel to succeed, as measured by external markers of success (first grades, then degrees, then money, then your kids' grades, etc), I don't think most of us who feel burned out ever had the opportunity (or did and didn't recognize it / take advantage of it) to know our true selves and interests. Instead, we only learned how to fine-tune the mental simulacrum of our mental judicial panel (of our parents, mentors, random famous tech people we admire or envy) as a fragile mechanism to achieve an external definition of success, often while ignoring or avoiding our own interests.
When I feel stuck or burned out, it is always because this mental judicial panel I've constructed in my head is trying to convince me that I will "definitely fail" at some new attempt (e.g. learning $NEW_LANG or switching to some exotic Linux distro and rice the hell out of it) because the easiest path I have to pleasing these judges is to only do what I am almost certain will to garner their approval (e.g. by churning out one more feature for dumpster fire that is my project at $BIG_CORP) or literally do nothing at all, to take the safe route.
To me, this is the ego, this enmeshment with your True Self and this mental judicial panel cemented long ago that no longer is working, but is so hard to recognize much less to change one's relationship to this panel.
The dysfunction is that this panel would much rather conserve energy by keeping you stuck (as the cognitive load of learning something new is very high in calories). I don't think burn-out is a lack of motivation, but actually a perverse aim of a high level of motivation towards _not_ doing anything new. It's very hard to disbelieve one's thoughts and observe them, so the level of self-berating that goes on when one even attempts to think about trying something new is often deafening, even if you are genuinely interested in it.
However, this realization never did anything for me. Sure it's good to meditate and therapy is helpful, but the only things that helped are:
1. doing the smallest possible things I can do to step towards who I truly wanted to be. One minute of meditation? No problem. Writing "auto main() -> int { std::cout << "Hello world\n"; }" for the Nth day in a row? Easy. Doing one pushup? Simple. The key insight for me was that it wasn't about the outcome of the small action, but the slow changes in how I view myself. The slow momentum of seeing myself invest in minute ways into long-term well-being was what I was truly building. Having faith in this process while picking myself up from failure is hands-down the hardest thing I've ever done in my life, but it does beat hopelessness.
2. teaching oneself to be okay with failure. After some time of success in coding / IT, the aversion towards trying new things often comes from an aversion to "failing" at it. If you think about it, it makes no sense that a web developer should just effortlessly be able to home-run a back-end Haskell app, but the enmeshment of one's ego can cause that unreasonable expectation to rumble around one's subconscious and almost always dissuade one from trying something new. The only way to learn this, in my own experience, is to try something in a new domain where you have little to no expectation of success and just _play_. Things that often work (at least based on reading this thread and many others like it) are either musical or, more often, some sort of physical craft (e.g. welding, woodwork, fixing up a motorcycle, easy embedded projects, cooking). What these will teach you is that it's okay to do something "good enough" for a first draft and that that's perfectly okay. The same mental voice that says "god I can't believe you don't understand the difference between an l-value and r-value. How stupid are you?!" will lose its power once you can truly appreciate the taste of a steak you may have under-marinated and over-cooked or a motor that sputters back to a smokey roar on the salvage jetski you're repairing despite the fact that it idles too high, has blistering paint and flaking decals, and is underpowered. These experiences help tamp down that voice of unreasonable expectations of "instant perfect" through the repeated small, undeniable successes in other areas where this voice is not as strong.
3. stop reading news that doesn't have a high chance of actually helping your day-to-day life. New tutorial on HN about something you're interested in? Check it out! Some twitter war about "California vs. Texas" as some high-profile figure / company talks about moving to Houston / Austin? Best to just close the tab unless you're actually into real estate or something.
4. If you're trying to read personal growth books / blogs to understand what's going on, avoid any resource that either a) doesn't teach you anything new or b) tries to make you feel good / inspired. These books are often written by people who put their stupid face on the cover and are trying to just sell vapid, repackaged advice in a terribly-written book as a way to get lucrative speaking gigs where they earn boatloads of cash spewing the same banal platitudes. These types of books tend to not only not teach you anything, but leave you feeling worse because you can't seem to "bootstrap" yourself out of burnout or depression like these books portray as an effortless act.
God knows I struggle to do all of these things on a regular basis, but these are the only things that have helped me amidst a sea of unhelpful advice (e.g. "join crossfit bro!", "go keto", "start doing BJJ", not that any of those are bad, but can often be used as an emotional crutch to avoid addressing an emotional problem) and loads of stupid self-help books I have found are useful.
Burnout goes back to one's childhood and more specifically its effect on how one define's one's ego and the attachment to it. Young children do not have any real intuition about how to navigate life and are thus beholden to the influences around them. Through seeking approval from these influences (parents, teachers, or even fictional characters), children begin the process of simulating what those influences will say or think of them in order to gain some sort of reward (one's parent saying they're proud of you) or avoid punishment.
The healthy form of this is people who still allow their true self to come into being amidst all of these influences and mental simulacrum they may have adopted while growing up. The few people who are lucky enough to have the stars align for this seem to just effortlessly glide from success to success (at least in my own very limited experience), though that isn't to say they're always great human beings. For example, one of my relatives was a real maverick in the field of anatomy and had myriad interests and hobbies that he pursued to semi-professional levels, but it turns out he was almost completely uninvolved as a parent and was quite the angry drunk until a few years I was born and I never knew until he passed.
Due to the immense pressure we all feel to succeed, as measured by external markers of success (first grades, then degrees, then money, then your kids' grades, etc), I don't think most of us who feel burned out ever had the opportunity (or did and didn't recognize it / take advantage of it) to know our true selves and interests. Instead, we only learned how to fine-tune the mental simulacrum of our mental judicial panel (of our parents, mentors, random famous tech people we admire or envy) as a fragile mechanism to achieve an external definition of success, often while ignoring or avoiding our own interests.
When I feel stuck or burned out, it is always because this mental judicial panel I've constructed in my head is trying to convince me that I will "definitely fail" at some new attempt (e.g. learning $NEW_LANG or switching to some exotic Linux distro and rice the hell out of it) because the easiest path I have to pleasing these judges is to only do what I am almost certain will to garner their approval (e.g. by churning out one more feature for dumpster fire that is my project at $BIG_CORP) or literally do nothing at all, to take the safe route.
To me, this is the ego, this enmeshment with your True Self and this mental judicial panel cemented long ago that no longer is working, but is so hard to recognize much less to change one's relationship to this panel.
The dysfunction is that this panel would much rather conserve energy by keeping you stuck (as the cognitive load of learning something new is very high in calories). I don't think burn-out is a lack of motivation, but actually a perverse aim of a high level of motivation towards _not_ doing anything new. It's very hard to disbelieve one's thoughts and observe them, so the level of self-berating that goes on when one even attempts to think about trying something new is often deafening, even if you are genuinely interested in it.
However, this realization never did anything for me. Sure it's good to meditate and therapy is helpful, but the only things that helped are:
1. doing the smallest possible things I can do to step towards who I truly wanted to be. One minute of meditation? No problem. Writing "auto main() -> int { std::cout << "Hello world\n"; }" for the Nth day in a row? Easy. Doing one pushup? Simple. The key insight for me was that it wasn't about the outcome of the small action, but the slow changes in how I view myself. The slow momentum of seeing myself invest in minute ways into long-term well-being was what I was truly building. Having faith in this process while picking myself up from failure is hands-down the hardest thing I've ever done in my life, but it does beat hopelessness.
2. teaching oneself to be okay with failure. After some time of success in coding / IT, the aversion towards trying new things often comes from an aversion to "failing" at it. If you think about it, it makes no sense that a web developer should just effortlessly be able to home-run a back-end Haskell app, but the enmeshment of one's ego can cause that unreasonable expectation to rumble around one's subconscious and almost always dissuade one from trying something new. The only way to learn this, in my own experience, is to try something in a new domain where you have little to no expectation of success and just _play_. Things that often work (at least based on reading this thread and many others like it) are either musical or, more often, some sort of physical craft (e.g. welding, woodwork, fixing up a motorcycle, easy embedded projects, cooking). What these will teach you is that it's okay to do something "good enough" for a first draft and that that's perfectly okay. The same mental voice that says "god I can't believe you don't understand the difference between an l-value and r-value. How stupid are you?!" will lose its power once you can truly appreciate the taste of a steak you may have under-marinated and over-cooked or a motor that sputters back to a smokey roar on the salvage jetski you're repairing despite the fact that it idles too high, has blistering paint and flaking decals, and is underpowered. These experiences help tamp down that voice of unreasonable expectations of "instant perfect" through the repeated small, undeniable successes in other areas where this voice is not as strong.
3. stop reading news that doesn't have a high chance of actually helping your day-to-day life. New tutorial on HN about something you're interested in? Check it out! Some twitter war about "California vs. Texas" as some high-profile figure / company talks about moving to Houston / Austin? Best to just close the tab unless you're actually into real estate or something.
4. If you're trying to read personal growth books / blogs to understand what's going on, avoid any resource that either a) doesn't teach you anything new or b) tries to make you feel good / inspired. These books are often written by people who put their stupid face on the cover and are trying to just sell vapid, repackaged advice in a terribly-written book as a way to get lucrative speaking gigs where they earn boatloads of cash spewing the same banal platitudes. These types of books tend to not only not teach you anything, but leave you feeling worse because you can't seem to "bootstrap" yourself out of burnout or depression like these books portray as an effortless act.
God knows I struggle to do all of these things on a regular basis, but these are the only things that have helped me amidst a sea of unhelpful advice (e.g. "join crossfit bro!", "go keto", "start doing BJJ", not that any of those are bad, but can often be used as an emotional crutch to avoid addressing an emotional problem) and loads of stupid self-help books I have found are useful.
If you are one of the lucky few to have made retirement money, then just retire and begin the rest of your life. If not, you gotta pay the bills somehow, so welcome to the rat race. Hope you enjoy your stay.
This isn’t a case of getting out of my comfort zone and trying other subfields either. That’s what I’ve been trying to do for 2 or 3 years, but nothing really interests me and the things that do... well, refer to the previous paragraph. The most recent project is very wide and covers many things, but I constantly lose and gain interest on it before even starting any work.
Sure I have things outside programming that interest me, but nothing conductive to hands on, hobbyist work, do at best, I’m stuck passively consuming content related to those.
So I’m not sure what to do now. How can I get the spark I used to have back,