'Havana syndrome'-like mystery illness affects Vienna US diplomats(bbc.com)
bbc.com
'Havana syndrome'-like mystery illness affects Vienna US diplomats
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57875322
90 comments
So it is happening to US diplomats on two unrelated locations, which indicates that the common element is the US. What if it's as a result of a US spy-craft instrument/substance side effect that potentially was not disclosed to the diplomats who suffer?
What if they're jusg English speakers who saw the news and got food poisning (or who knows what)... Why is this such fertile ground for conspiracy theories? Is there some kind of assumption diplomats and spies never get sick with unidentied diseases like the rest of us?
Conspiracy theories are a lot fun when not affecting public behaviour badly(That's why we have huge number of literature and films around conspiracies). Therefore it's intriguing to speculate on a mystery.
Oh and these days everyone is an English speaker, at least most diplomats are. Whatever the US ones read, the Spanish, the French, the Italians, the Bulgarians, the Russians, the Brazilians read it too.
Oh and these days everyone is an English speaker, at least most diplomats are. Whatever the US ones read, the Spanish, the French, the Italians, the Bulgarians, the Russians, the Brazilians read it too.
> Conspiracy theories are a lot fun when not affecting public behaviour badly(That's why we have huge number of literature and films around conspiracies). Therefore it's intriguing to speculate on a mystery.
This is equivocation. One can enjoy fictional conspiracies without becoming a conspiracy theorist.
> Whatever the US ones read, the Spanish, the French, the Italians, the Bulgarians, the Russians, the Brazilians read it too.
I guess if you've never been to those countries you could think that, but no, even with 39% of French speaking some English, they still mostly read their own news and not American news, unlike Americans.
This is equivocation. One can enjoy fictional conspiracies without becoming a conspiracy theorist.
> Whatever the US ones read, the Spanish, the French, the Italians, the Bulgarians, the Russians, the Brazilians read it too.
I guess if you've never been to those countries you could think that, but no, even with 39% of French speaking some English, they still mostly read their own news and not American news, unlike Americans.
Exactly. My take is that these reports are of work-place injuries. Something that the Government employees are doing, or have had done to them, is causing the problems.
Examples from the past: Gulf Syndrome in the 1990s caused by anti-gas warfare antidotes, and the Agent Orange cancers and other birth-deformities inflicted on VietNam vets.
Examples from the past: Gulf Syndrome in the 1990s caused by anti-gas warfare antidotes, and the Agent Orange cancers and other birth-deformities inflicted on VietNam vets.
Two cases in war zones. How would you explain this happening in a neutral city to civilians?
Exactly my point, really. There's something different about the Government employees, that isn't happening to the (millions of) civilians around them, in the middle of cities which are as likely to be those of 'friendly' nations as those of 'adversary' nations.
What explains the Canadian cases? Is the US testing some weapon on them also?
My hunch is this is more likely something the Russians are carrying out since both locations (Cuba/Vienna) are readily accessible to their agents.
My hunch is this is more likely something the Russians are carrying out since both locations (Cuba/Vienna) are readily accessible to their agents.
> What explains the Canadian cases?
Intelligence cooperation? I’m inclined to think that it would the the science and technology superpower that would be using devices that are out of reach for the rest. That superpower is not Cuba, not even Russia anymore. The US also has a history of being bold on extralegal experimentations with substances and devices.
Intelligence cooperation? I’m inclined to think that it would the the science and technology superpower that would be using devices that are out of reach for the rest. That superpower is not Cuba, not even Russia anymore. The US also has a history of being bold on extralegal experimentations with substances and devices.
> So it is happening to US diplomats on two unrelated locations, which indicates that the common element is the US.
1) Does not automatically follow. The US has the same geopolitical enemies with the same capabilities regardless of location of agents.
2) A public report engenders more reports since someone doesn't have to worry about losing their position/security clearance/etc. because they are "mentally unstable".
3) I don't think it's a side-effect that wasn't disclosed. If anything, it's a side-effect that is unknown from something trying to be protective. Gulf War Syndrome is a good example of that.
1) Does not automatically follow. The US has the same geopolitical enemies with the same capabilities regardless of location of agents.
2) A public report engenders more reports since someone doesn't have to worry about losing their position/security clearance/etc. because they are "mentally unstable".
3) I don't think it's a side-effect that wasn't disclosed. If anything, it's a side-effect that is unknown from something trying to be protective. Gulf War Syndrome is a good example of that.
More than two. It says "Cases of the condition have been reported elsewhere in the world", other than Havana and Vienna.
When you have syndromes with a huge number of symptoms, including extremely common conditions, and the symptoms are largely untestable, relying on patient self-reporting, then you're going to catch a lot of people with these symptoms.
This is the exact same thing with Long Covid, or Gulf War Syndrome.
The most interesting thing about Havana Syndrome is that it apparently only affects English-speaking diplomats in American and Canadian embassies. This is probably because they're familiar with the syndrome from news reports.
This is the exact same thing with Long Covid, or Gulf War Syndrome.
The most interesting thing about Havana Syndrome is that it apparently only affects English-speaking diplomats in American and Canadian embassies. This is probably because they're familiar with the syndrome from news reports.
Long Covid is demonstrably provable with scans, O2-saturation, blood pressure and other diagnostic checks. https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n853/rr-2
From your BMJ reference:
The term long covid embraces a wide spectrum of organ involvement, with no clear evidence yet to help inform efficient diagnostic pathways or specific treatments or to indicate probable prognosis.
The term long covid embraces a wide spectrum of organ involvement, with no clear evidence yet to help inform efficient diagnostic pathways or specific treatments or to indicate probable prognosis.
"...In this cohort study including 100 patients recently recovered from COVID-19 identified from a COVID-19 test center, cardiac magnetic resonance imaging revealed cardiac involvement in 78 patients (78%) and ongoing myocardial inflammation in 60 patients (60%), which was independent of preexisting conditions, severity and overall course of the acute illness, and the time from the original diagnosis....."
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/...
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/...
> This is the exact same thing with Long Covid, or Gulf War Syndrome.
Is your example trying to argue that Havana syndrome isn't physiological? Because that what I get from your tone, but the data you provide argues the opposite.
Both times a collection of unrelated people reported consistently reported broad but similar/overlapping symptoms, and in both cases (Gulf War Syndrome, and Long Covid) they were later shown to be objectively legit even though they weren't taken as seriously at first.
It seems like the same thing with this - in my book its a bit too coincidental at this point. Not to mention happening all around the same time period in a new location.
Is your example trying to argue that Havana syndrome isn't physiological? Because that what I get from your tone, but the data you provide argues the opposite.
Both times a collection of unrelated people reported consistently reported broad but similar/overlapping symptoms, and in both cases (Gulf War Syndrome, and Long Covid) they were later shown to be objectively legit even though they weren't taken as seriously at first.
It seems like the same thing with this - in my book its a bit too coincidental at this point. Not to mention happening all around the same time period in a new location.
Gulf war syndrome is a real thing. So is Long Covid.
> it apparently only affects English-speaking diplomats in American and Canadian embassies
Wasn't that the premise of a video game series? A biological weapon that can be tuned to a specific language, so it affects only the speakers of the language? I cannot remember the name.
Wasn't that the premise of a video game series? A biological weapon that can be tuned to a specific language, so it affects only the speakers of the language? I cannot remember the name.
I don't think that's the point he was making. Moreso, that they "think" they have it, because they've heard of it. They may have real symptoms, but it could be false attribution or something else.
This is a reasonable hypothesis but do you have any more evidence for this than the others?
They weren't offering a hypothesis for the cause of this, only noting the difficulty of making such determinations given the circumstances.
Besides which, all any of us have to go by are hypothesis. I think it's pretty clear that speculation is the only thing available to discussions on the possible causes.
Besides which, all any of us have to go by are hypothesis. I think it's pretty clear that speculation is the only thing available to discussions on the possible causes.
Yes they are, they are clearly saying that it's psychosomatic.
The only logical conclusion is that it is related to some secret anti spy device installed at US embassies around the world and not some outside disturbance covering Vienne to Havana?
Another logical conclusion could be that we only hear of abnormal medical issues if they happen to diplomats. I mean, if this happened to a random Joe, would we hear about it?
I was just thinking that. If we all read headlines for each time someone at the local Starbucks got sick, we'd avoid the coffee like the plague! There's a huge bias I think a lot of people don't account for, as well as the fact that quite a few diplomats are moving around all the time, they're ALL bound to get sick eventually. Rubbing shoulders with 100+ countries every week, it's basically inevitable.
It sounds similar to the occasional "cell phone radiation" and "electromagnetic hypersensitivity" news article. What's interesting is that those stories always include a suspected cause. With the embassy story, it seems we hear a lot about the symptoms.
Or that it's a secret weapon used on US diplomats by [insert foreign power].
Or that it's a result of radiation given off by some cryptogear that's classified.
Or that it's a result of a global phenomenon and is only being detected in Vienna because they were alert to it after noticing it in Havana.
Or that it's a contagious but slow acting disease spreading through the US diplomatic corps from some Typhoid Mary as they get redeployed.
Or that it's a result of radiation given off by some cryptogear that's classified.
Or that it's a result of a global phenomenon and is only being detected in Vienna because they were alert to it after noticing it in Havana.
Or that it's a contagious but slow acting disease spreading through the US diplomatic corps from some Typhoid Mary as they get redeployed.
Or sunspots. Always one of my favorited from the tech-problem excuse handbook.
That, and directing annoying questions about Lotus Notes to the cafeteria staff so they could resolve issues with their lettuce nodes.
That, and directing annoying questions about Lotus Notes to the cafeteria staff so they could resolve issues with their lettuce nodes.
Or that it's related an an anti spy device surreptitiously left by foreign agents at each embassy. Anyone can make an appointment to visit one and leave a disguised device behind. Or perhaps more likely, use a directed weapon aimed towards the embassy from the outside.
Or perhaps there was only an issue in Havana, and what we see now is psychosomatic. Or even that a few coincidental illnesses in Havana led to psychosomatic incidents as well.
Really all there is to go by is different levels of speculation informed by very few facts known for certain. However it would be odd for the US to allow its own devices to make its own staff sick, sparking many conspiracy theories and accusations at other countries.
Or perhaps there was only an issue in Havana, and what we see now is psychosomatic. Or even that a few coincidental illnesses in Havana led to psychosomatic incidents as well.
Really all there is to go by is different levels of speculation informed by very few facts known for certain. However it would be odd for the US to allow its own devices to make its own staff sick, sparking many conspiracy theories and accusations at other countries.
Theories abound, but we ought to exhaust all available avenues of examination before landing on the "psychosomatic" label. Few things are worse than having a physiological problem and being told that it's all in your head. You can feel it, you are somehow debilitated by it, and yet others do not believe you. American diplomats are not particularly superstitious nor ignorant people, and they are indeed exposed to risks; some have been killed in the line of duty. I am inclined to treat this like a workplace-related injury until proven otherwise.
[deleted]
I had a theory about this illness.
I dance a bit of salsa, and sometimes there were cuban DJs at the festivals I visited. They all always tended to do one thing with their sound setup: they overamplified the higher part of the audio spectrum, producing a hissing distortion of sound. It had an effect on me very similar on what is described about Havana embassy: headache and slight nausea.
I tried talking to those DJs about it, and they told me that that's the way they like it. So I think that maybe you'd sickness is explained by cubans listening to their music the way they like it.
But that was before Vienna. Maybe there was a salsa festival recently?
I dance a bit of salsa, and sometimes there were cuban DJs at the festivals I visited. They all always tended to do one thing with their sound setup: they overamplified the higher part of the audio spectrum, producing a hissing distortion of sound. It had an effect on me very similar on what is described about Havana embassy: headache and slight nausea.
I tried talking to those DJs about it, and they told me that that's the way they like it. So I think that maybe you'd sickness is explained by cubans listening to their music the way they like it.
But that was before Vienna. Maybe there was a salsa festival recently?
That's a bit of stretch, I think. I got my Tinnitus after my Cuba vacation too and I've seen some salsa practices when I was there however none of those had a loud music. I'm not into DJs and my only attempt to trying to get into a venue with a DJ ended with a frustration after giving up waiting in the lane to get into the Cave club in Trinidad.
Also, later I found out that my tinnitus is due to my unhealthy sitting position when using a copmuter that apparently was not so good on my neck.
Also, later I found out that my tinnitus is due to my unhealthy sitting position when using a copmuter that apparently was not so good on my neck.
I have another theory: maybe they're using a certain tech to steal classified info remotely and we're seeing the side effects. I seriously doubt that Russians will hurt US "diplomats" on purpose....payback and all.
>Cases of the condition have been reported elsewhere in the world, but US officials say the numbers in Vienna are greater than in any other city apart from Havana.
Hadn't heard it was this wide-spread. What are the chances their own security systems are at fault? If not, then at this scale couldn't thermal imaging spot something?
Hadn't heard it was this wide-spread. What are the chances their own security systems are at fault? If not, then at this scale couldn't thermal imaging spot something?
My guess would be it is their own security. "Elsewhere in the world" also includes New York City.
EM radiation in the microwave range is super-easy to monitor using bog-standard spectrum analyzers.
Thermal imaging wouldn't detect microwaves. They are at very different parts of the spectrum.
It might spot a beam hitting an absorbing surface, like skin.
True, since the absorbing surface turns it into heat. If I recall correctly, the issue with microwaves is that they primarily absorb below the skin's surface.
US embassies are basically CIA labs with all kinds of spying gadgets blasting EM waves. an intern probably wanted to hear better what the Russian diplomats across the street are saying and set the scanner to beast mode
Every time I see the NAS study mentioned I feel compelled to mention it said that while a psychogenic cause was entirely possible, as they never performed psychiatric evaluations they could not conclude that was the cause.
How they then conclude that a microwave attack is the most plausible is beyond me.
How they then conclude that a microwave attack is the most plausible is beyond me.
How could psychiatric evaluations conclude that anyway? There is no test for somatic symptom disorder, the diagnostic criteria are just that the symptoms are not adequately explained by physical causes. It often happens in people who are completely healthy mentally.
This is hysteria.
Week one, years ago for this story, physicists said this is not possible, still stands since physics is still the same -
BBC - "The syndrome is unexplained, but US scientists say it is most probably caused by directed microwave radiation."
If you need a lesson, travel and work overseas is hard mentally. Totally manageable, and the reward is amazing. But look after yourself, just don't underestimate it.
Other lesson, diplomats are nothing special. Not especially smart. Normally just willing to be inquisitive about a country and stay inquisitive. They too get run down.
And you are being played by the state department here, they know it's hysteria, they have seen it before, but there is no reason for them to correct it internally or externally. It fits with cold war lite with Russia.
Week one, years ago for this story, physicists said this is not possible, still stands since physics is still the same -
BBC - "The syndrome is unexplained, but US scientists say it is most probably caused by directed microwave radiation."
If you need a lesson, travel and work overseas is hard mentally. Totally manageable, and the reward is amazing. But look after yourself, just don't underestimate it.
Other lesson, diplomats are nothing special. Not especially smart. Normally just willing to be inquisitive about a country and stay inquisitive. They too get run down.
And you are being played by the state department here, they know it's hysteria, they have seen it before, but there is no reason for them to correct it internally or externally. It fits with cold war lite with Russia.
Is it technically difficult to detect abnormal microwave energy in this kind of situation? I know you can get a microwave oven leak detector for about thirty dollars.
These detectors might very well be a scam targeted at people who believe any kind of radiation is bad for them.
[deleted]
Because this story is related to Vienna and your post fits ...
Let me tell you about the viennese hotdog stand owner who had three microwaves running at all time, to heat food quickly. Open. Behind his back.
There was a glass in between the customers and him, shielded, but the pressure of the microwaves (heat, i guess?) could be felt through the opening, where he hands out the food.
Of course it killed him eventually.
Let me tell you about the viennese hotdog stand owner who had three microwaves running at all time, to heat food quickly. Open. Behind his back.
There was a glass in between the customers and him, shielded, but the pressure of the microwaves (heat, i guess?) could be felt through the opening, where he hands out the food.
Of course it killed him eventually.
I think the microwave is designed so that the radiation resonates in a cavity. Once you open the cavity, the waves spread in all directions and the energy drops off very quickly.
They are contained by front door, which has a metal lattice to create a Faraday cage. Of course they drop off in open air, but leaking microwaves are not safe.
Pretty sure that is entirely an urban legend.
No, it isn't, because I was there. My above post was clearly written in a way that makes it obvious to see that I was there. I've felt it on my own skin.
I don't know, I can easily believe that there are hot dog vendors in Vienna. Probably even one that has a silly name for English-speaking tourists like "Wurst Hotdogs!"
> The syndrome is unexplained, but US scientists say it is most probably caused by directed microwave radiation.
A lot of scientists, American and non-American alike, doubted the microwave weapon theory.
> The US accused Cuba of carrying out "sonic attacks", which it strongly denied, and the incident led to increased tension between the two nations.
The sound of the "sonic attacks" turned out to be the sound of indigenous Cuban crickets. Oops! https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/recording-of-soni...
You can listen to the sound here: https://apnews.com/article/health-north-america-ap-top-news-...
> A 2019 US academic study found "brain abnormalities" in the diplomats who had fallen ill, but Cuba dismissed the report.
As did a lot of academics:
"The latest brain scans may provide fresh evidence of some injury, but the study was not without critics and some researchers have questioned whether there was any kind of attack at all.
“Finding evidence of brain change doesn’t provide evidence of brain injury or damage,” said Dr. Jon Stone, a professor of neurology at the Centre for Clinical Brain Sciences at the University of Edinburgh, who was not involved in the study.
Dr. Sergio Della Sala, a professor of human cognitive neuroscience also at the University of Edinburgh, in an email called the study “half baked.”
He noted that 12 of the affected workers who had a history of concussion prior to going to Cuba were included in the analyzes. “In comparison, none of the controls declared previous brain injury. This in itself could cause statistical group differences,” Della Sala said."
https://nationalpost.com/news/world/scans-show-changes-to-br...
In his commentary Della Sala writes: "The JAMA article represents a case of poor neuropsychology; clinically inappropriate and methodologically improper." https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00109...
A lot of scientists, American and non-American alike, doubted the microwave weapon theory.
> The US accused Cuba of carrying out "sonic attacks", which it strongly denied, and the incident led to increased tension between the two nations.
The sound of the "sonic attacks" turned out to be the sound of indigenous Cuban crickets. Oops! https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/recording-of-soni...
You can listen to the sound here: https://apnews.com/article/health-north-america-ap-top-news-...
> A 2019 US academic study found "brain abnormalities" in the diplomats who had fallen ill, but Cuba dismissed the report.
As did a lot of academics:
"The latest brain scans may provide fresh evidence of some injury, but the study was not without critics and some researchers have questioned whether there was any kind of attack at all.
“Finding evidence of brain change doesn’t provide evidence of brain injury or damage,” said Dr. Jon Stone, a professor of neurology at the Centre for Clinical Brain Sciences at the University of Edinburgh, who was not involved in the study.
Dr. Sergio Della Sala, a professor of human cognitive neuroscience also at the University of Edinburgh, in an email called the study “half baked.”
He noted that 12 of the affected workers who had a history of concussion prior to going to Cuba were included in the analyzes. “In comparison, none of the controls declared previous brain injury. This in itself could cause statistical group differences,” Della Sala said."
https://nationalpost.com/news/world/scans-show-changes-to-br...
In his commentary Della Sala writes: "The JAMA article represents a case of poor neuropsychology; clinically inappropriate and methodologically improper." https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00109...
How about issuing every employee with a monitor that detects microwave radiation (since that's what they're saying they think it is)?
I can see it now, all US diplomats will have helmets on with antennae for detecting various wavelengths.
Made from rolls of tinfoil that contractors sell to embassies for $1200/25sqft roll
similar to how every employee working near nuclear radiation is issued a dosimeter
Why the hell aren't they just shielding the embassies against microwave radiation already? If I was a diplomat I would be walking around with a tinfoil hat and underwear, and I'd be quite furious about the lack of defense.
[deleted]
Maybe it's the ham radio jamming that causes it? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27857290
This. My parents were amateur ham radio operators. I got tinnitus and always blamed the linear amplifiers they used on the room next to my bedroom.
If this is an attack what’s the point of it. It’s not like it has any useful effects on anything either politically or militarily.
(among other things)
It weakens recruiting for a diplomatic corps that has already seen its workforce whittled down under the leadership of Tillerson and Pompeo. Slower, lower-quality recruiting could reduce our ability to maintain influence in, and collect information from, key parts of the world. It's no secret that Cuba is an ideological beachhead used by our adversaries to hamper our foreign relations in Latin America.
It weakens recruiting for a diplomatic corps that has already seen its workforce whittled down under the leadership of Tillerson and Pompeo. Slower, lower-quality recruiting could reduce our ability to maintain influence in, and collect information from, key parts of the world. It's no secret that Cuba is an ideological beachhead used by our adversaries to hamper our foreign relations in Latin America.
> what's the point of it
the point is probably how every US diplomat around the globe probably goes to sleep every night thinking "I hope I wake up tomorrow with without permanent brain damage"
the point is probably how every US diplomat around the globe probably goes to sleep every night thinking "I hope I wake up tomorrow with without permanent brain damage"
The news stories alone accomplish that, no need to attack anyone/anyone else.
Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but the new stories exist because of the attacks. If they didn't do the attack... there wouldn't be any news stories, would there?
No, the news stories exist because people have strange symptoms. Even with no attacks the stories could happen.
Ok... now think this through. Imagine there were no strange symptoms, and so no stories, and you wanted to create the stories... what would you do to cause the symptoms? The attacks, right?
Or are you suggesting a foreign power that wanted to cause fear would just hang around and wait and hope for symptoms to appear out of nowhere?
Or are you suggesting a foreign power that wanted to cause fear would just hang around and wait and hope for symptoms to appear out of nowhere?
Personally I think that there has never been any foreign power involved in this.
That said, there is the possibility that something happened in Havana and now some foreign power is reaping a long running additional "benefit" without ever attacking again.
That said, there is the possibility that something happened in Havana and now some foreign power is reaping a long running additional "benefit" without ever attacking again.
You must not read the news much, stories don't stick around long. Something that happened last week might as well not exist.
People don't need to watch Jaws every day to still be afraid of sharks.
Causing fear. People probably don't want to be posted to embassies in Havana these days.
> It’s not like it has any useful effects on anything either politically or militarily.
You genuinely don't think creating paranoia for and generally antagonizing US diplomats is of any potential political or military value? If anything this creates additional stress, and demonstrates the US's total inability to defend itself from such things making it appear weak/incompetent/vulnerable to the entire world, to say the least.
Surely you're joking or feigning ignorance here, right?
You genuinely don't think creating paranoia for and generally antagonizing US diplomats is of any potential political or military value? If anything this creates additional stress, and demonstrates the US's total inability to defend itself from such things making it appear weak/incompetent/vulnerable to the entire world, to say the least.
Surely you're joking or feigning ignorance here, right?
This is an attempt to listen in on the "inner voice" in your head. This has been demonstrated to me, however crazy this might sound. When targeted, you experience this cicada like sound (or metallic sound) filling your head.
I see that you have commented about this a couple of times. Please say more; I am interested to know your thoughts and experiences on the subject. Is it possible to successfully observe a person's thoughts from outside of his or her body?
Vienna is a historical hotspot for North Korean overseas operations, but that connection would be seemingly too obvious (Havana also has a DPRK embassy)…
DPRK embassies are everywhere in Europe (germany, italy, spain, romania, sweden, etc), so what?