Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know (2018)(slatestarcodex.com)
slatestarcodex.com
Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know (2018)
https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/07/10/melatonin-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/
155 comments
Melatonin is not like a sleeping pill where more will necessarily make you more drowsy. It is a hormone that signals to your body that it is time to sleep. I can't find it right now, but there was a study of different doses in a large number of people that determined that just 0.2mg was more effective than larger doses for most people. And I've found that's true for me too. When I use melatonin, I use 0.2mg, and I fall asleep within half an hour, sleep a full night, and wake up feeling refreshed. If I use a larger dose, I sleep even less well than I would without a supplement.
I suggest to anyone who is taking 1mg or larger doses to experiment with a "microdose" of 0.2mg and see how it affects you.
I suggest to anyone who is taking 1mg or larger doses to experiment with a "microdose" of 0.2mg and see how it affects you.
I always wonder if some of the self reported dosage variability for pills comes from differences in absorbtion of pills. Maybe some ppl's stomach acids or bacterial flora destroy particular molecules more or prevents absorption more than in other ppl?
Sublingual tablets are available which result in a much more reliably fast absorption. I recommend them for anyone who wants less variability from their melatonin use.
Any links on why are sublingual better wrt absorption?
It bypasses the stomach and intestines. It also bypasses liver metabolism (first-pass metabolism)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublingual_administration#Prin...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_pass_effect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublingual_administration#Prin...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_pass_effect
Short answer is because the chemical goes directly through the membrane into the bloodstream.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublingual_administration
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublingual_administration
you can see this with pot edibles, if you take one on an empty stomach it takes forever to kick in and sometimes doesn’t work very well, but if you eat the same one after a large fatty meal it will kick in fast and strong
How do you dose it though? Lowest dose I can find is 1mg pills and even those are pretty rare in my country. Do you get 1mg pills, crush them and measure out on precision scales?
You can get 300mcg pills but they never seem to be the sublingual, dissolving type. The lowest I've found dissolving tablets is 1mg. I take a half or a quarter and dissolve it under my tongue. That works fine when it works. Sometimes it puts me to sleep and I sleep longer than my usual 5-6 hours while waking up with a hangover. Sometimes it just makes me sleepy for 15 minutes and then I'm wide awake. Melatonin is very hit or miss for me. I smoked a lot of pot though, and from what I hear that triggers a massive melatonin release, so maybe my homeostasis is a bit messed up.
Sleep is tough. There are so many confounding factors and issues which can affect it... it's hard to find a single thing that works or that works consistently without side effects.
Sleep is tough. There are so many confounding factors and issues which can affect it... it's hard to find a single thing that works or that works consistently without side effects.
the variation may be because the pill isn't uniformly distributed so one half pill doesn't necessarily mean half dose of melatonin, which is why I was wondering if he crushed them. Check out the other responses, there seem to be liquid alternatives which are easier to dose.
I've heard 0.3mg recommended as a dose and I had a bottle of small 0.1mg pills.
You take syrup drops. One drop is ~150 mcg.
This is the way I do it now. I buy melatonin in a liquid and it has a dropper with measures on it. I don't sweat about a couple of drops too high or low, it's fine, much better than trying to chop up tablets into doses!
It's tastier too.
It's tastier too.
> . If I use a larger dose, I sleep even less well than I would without a supplement.
I stopped taking Melatonin because I noticed, on multiple occasions, that after a week of use my sleeping period became extremely easy to disrupt and resulted in a bad sleep.
I was taking a brand sold in costco, each pill being 5mg.
If I ever decide to try Melatonin agin I will try splitting it into 1/20 parts (0.25mg) and try again
I stopped taking Melatonin because I noticed, on multiple occasions, that after a week of use my sleeping period became extremely easy to disrupt and resulted in a bad sleep.
I was taking a brand sold in costco, each pill being 5mg.
If I ever decide to try Melatonin agin I will try splitting it into 1/20 parts (0.25mg) and try again
There's no guarantee in general that a pill will have its active ingredients distributed evenly throughout. Although they're not often carried in stores, there are versions of melatonin that come in 0.5mg doses.
> not like a sleeping pill where more will necessarily make you more drowsy
> I suggest to anyone who is taking 1mg or larger doses to experiment with a "microdose" of 0.2mg and see how it affects you.
So the problem I have with this reasoning is that I have tried this and the higher doses make me way more sleepy. I take a lower "correct" dose anyway (most of the time), but it has nothing to do with what works better.
> I suggest to anyone who is taking 1mg or larger doses to experiment with a "microdose" of 0.2mg and see how it affects you.
So the problem I have with this reasoning is that I have tried this and the higher doses make me way more sleepy. I take a lower "correct" dose anyway (most of the time), but it has nothing to do with what works better.
The trouble is that you know how much you're taking. How do you rule out a placebo effect?
Human have a pretty strong bias towards thinking that more equals better.
Sleeping is probably one of the most physiologically influenced physiological processes we undergo, so it's pretty easy to believe that placebos would have a powerful influence on it.
Human have a pretty strong bias towards thinking that more equals better.
Sleeping is probably one of the most physiologically influenced physiological processes we undergo, so it's pretty easy to believe that placebos would have a powerful influence on it.
If it's placebo, then don't tell me to test it (because as you say, that doesn't work). That said, the effects are so strong and so consistent I don't really care if it is placebo. As long as it works :)
Melatonin is not a hormone. It is a multi tasking antioxidant molecule. It is also 3 billion years old.
Those are a lot of fancy words you have there, but it's definitely a hormone.
https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Melatonin
https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Melatonin
Yeah I am flabbergasted a psychiatrist of all people would entertain the idea of a “correct” dose. They should look at their own practice and see the range of lithium, SSRI, antipsychotics, antiepileptics doses their patients are on — and these are for medications with far more studies about dose response than melatonin.
They should also know better that serum levels of a supplement/medication that acts centrally can be misleading.
They should also know better that serum levels of a supplement/medication that acts centrally can be misleading.
>A single correct dose is a myth. The author even sort of notes that with the differences between teenagers, 25 year olds and the elderly.
The author spends several paragraphs citing studies, different cases and populations, and says explicitly why they concluded to the specific mg dose:
"Based on a bunch of studies that either favor the lower dose or show no difference between doses, plus clear evidence that 0.3 mg produces an effect closest to natural melatonin spikes in healthy people, plus UpToDate usually having the best recommendations, I’m in favor of the 0.3 mg number. I think you could make an argument for anything up to 1 mg. Anything beyond that and you’re definitely too high."
The author spends several paragraphs citing studies, different cases and populations, and says explicitly why they concluded to the specific mg dose:
"Based on a bunch of studies that either favor the lower dose or show no difference between doses, plus clear evidence that 0.3 mg produces an effect closest to natural melatonin spikes in healthy people, plus UpToDate usually having the best recommendations, I’m in favor of the 0.3 mg number. I think you could make an argument for anything up to 1 mg. Anything beyond that and you’re definitely too high."
I'm not sure you can trust the numbers on unregulated supplements anyway.
yeah this is a reasonably good point. i do better when the label says 5mg.
You can't.
Any reference for the variance on them? I doubt it's too big but would prefer to just see what this is based on.
Supplements are an unregulated market so doses can vary wildly, even with melatonin.
‘A study published in 2017 tested 31 different melatonin supplements purchased from pharmacies and grocery stores. For most of the supplements tested, the amount of melatonin in the product did not match what was listed on the label.”’
Melatonin Natural Health Products and Supplements: Presence of Serotonin and Significant Variability of Melatonin Content https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5263083/
‘A study published in 2017 tested 31 different melatonin supplements purchased from pharmacies and grocery stores. For most of the supplements tested, the amount of melatonin in the product did not match what was listed on the label.”’
Melatonin Natural Health Products and Supplements: Presence of Serotonin and Significant Variability of Melatonin Content https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5263083/
Looks like it was within 10% of described for 71% of supplements (which sounds pretty okay) but there were some big outliers for the rest.
It also suggests the biggest variance was in mixed-supplement pills while pure melatonin pills were mostly within the normal range. Definitely good to know but I wouldn't worry too much if you are just getting basic pure melatonin from a well-known manufacturer.
It also suggests the biggest variance was in mixed-supplement pills while pure melatonin pills were mostly within the normal range. Definitely good to know but I wouldn't worry too much if you are just getting basic pure melatonin from a well-known manufacturer.
30% not even being within 10% seems like a pretty huge amount of variance to me. I guess it is a matter of perspective.
Sure but if that's mostly the mix of supplements in one tablet versions. If you buy pure melatonin from a respected brand it's going to be a pretty high chance you are getting the right dose.
On the anxiolytic side - a warning for those susceptible to such things, when I was taking melatonin it caused me horrible anxiety, something I’d never experienced before. It stopped not long after I discontinued it.
That happened to me too. Not pleasant.
Melatonin should never be taken by those with existing or predisposition to mental health conditions.
Melatonin should never be taken by those with existing or predisposition to mental health conditions.
"mental health conditions" is rather broad along with the intersection between insomnia and depression. you probably just suggested that nobody should take melatonin because you had anxiety.
Suggesting that people with mental health conditions do not self medicate with supplements that can be particularly harmful to those with mental health conditions is entirely reasonable.
Self-medication for quality of life is broadly all you have if you don't want to be put on the hefty big guns immediately. The alternative to the big guns is being told that there's nothing wrong with you. As such, saying "don't self-medicate" is extremely unproductive and only serves to push such practices out of view.
> As such, saying "don't self-medicate" is extremely unproductive and only serves to push such practices out of view.
Sure, this is definitely a strawman you could make.
Here in reality I suggested that those struggling with MH conditions shouldn't self medicate.
Sure, this is definitely a strawman you could make.
Here in reality I suggested that those struggling with MH conditions shouldn't self medicate.
And that's exactly what I was responding to. Where exactly is the strawman?
That's now what was written:
Melatonin should never be taken... is different from recommending not to self medicate.
The previous comment can also be read as "disregard medical advice if tells you to take melatonin"
Melatonin should never be taken... is different from recommending not to self medicate.
The previous comment can also be read as "disregard medical advice if tells you to take melatonin"
NY state used to warn against it. It wasn't for nothing.
But yes, I definitely recommend people not to take hormones unless they know exactly what they are doing. Just because something is for sale over the counter, doesn't mean it's safe or good for you.
But yes, I definitely recommend people not to take hormones unless they know exactly what they are doing. Just because something is for sale over the counter, doesn't mean it's safe or good for you.
"Never" is a strong word here. Perhaps cautiously and/or with guidance of a professional? Anecdotally, I have anxiety and OCD, and melatonin has never given me problems.
I’m 30, with sleep disorder that fits exactly what you are describing. I’ll share my own anecdote.
I've taken melatonin in 0.3mg sublingual doses, it worked perfectly. It’s incredible the control it gives me over my sleep after having none for decades.
However it leaves me unmotivated the next day, like I don’t want to get out of bed and if I do, I don’t want to get out of the house or do anything. I thought it was coincidental but it’s systematic. Very annoying.
So I stopped taking it. I now only take it on days where I know I’ll be doing nothing the next one anyway. Curious if anyone has had a similar experience.
I've taken melatonin in 0.3mg sublingual doses, it worked perfectly. It’s incredible the control it gives me over my sleep after having none for decades.
However it leaves me unmotivated the next day, like I don’t want to get out of bed and if I do, I don’t want to get out of the house or do anything. I thought it was coincidental but it’s systematic. Very annoying.
So I stopped taking it. I now only take it on days where I know I’ll be doing nothing the next one anyway. Curious if anyone has had a similar experience.
Concur. My sleep issues are not severe enough to risk the "do nothing" next day. Only on exceptional bad trends do I use melatonin now. but I may try some of the variants in this.
The "correct" dose happens to be 0.3 to 0.4mg for me. How did I determine that? I started with 3mg, got knocked out way too fast. Then went to 1.5mg, got knocked out way too fast. Rinse and repeat with 0.8mg. On 0.4mg I felt it was just about enough, and then I noticed 0.3mg sometimes helped and sometimes didn't.
YMMV
YMMV
> I started with 3mg, got knocked out way too fast.
Yeah, you see that doesn't happen with me with 5 mg.
I take it at least an hour before my planned time to go to sleep and it takes at least that long to kick in for me.
People responding to me still don't understand that there's significant interpersonal variation.
I literally don't understand this concept of melatonin "knocking me out". It doesn't do that to me at all. If I really wanted to just plug myself into a computer game or something I could easily power through the 5mg of melatonin and stay up until >3am.
Yeah, you see that doesn't happen with me with 5 mg.
I take it at least an hour before my planned time to go to sleep and it takes at least that long to kick in for me.
People responding to me still don't understand that there's significant interpersonal variation.
I literally don't understand this concept of melatonin "knocking me out". It doesn't do that to me at all. If I really wanted to just plug myself into a computer game or something I could easily power through the 5mg of melatonin and stay up until >3am.
Ok, in the context of commercial supplements being 10-30x the "correct dose" the significant point is that the commercial doses are stupidly high for anyone. People needing +/- 50% of the dose isn't the important part here.
No, some people need more than the commercial supplements provide. That's the point. The effective range varies by an order of magnitude. The author denies the actual variety of human needs.
Try full spectrum CBD if you're in lucky enough position to access it.
Helped me get enough sleep that my anxiety and ADD became 10x moreanageable. (ADD meds don't work for me, they blow up my anxiety.)
Helped me get enough sleep that my anxiety and ADD became 10x moreanageable. (ADD meds don't work for me, they blow up my anxiety.)
How did you cure your DSPD? I am asking for a friend..:P
As someone who was stuck on a 26 hour schedule for years, I just... grew out of it.
One day around age 26 it just went away after having been a problem since early high school. No clue why. If you're still young, your "problem" may simply be youth.
One day around age 26 it just went away after having been a problem since early high school. No clue why. If you're still young, your "problem" may simply be youth.
Only thing that helped for me was finding a job that didn't care what time I showed up.
I still sleep weird times but at least I'm no longer laying there frustrated and extremely stressed at 5am that after laying there for 5 hours I'm not asleep and worried about oversleeping or just having to go to work without sleep to not risk being scolded about showing up late again.
I still sleep weird times but at least I'm no longer laying there frustrated and extremely stressed at 5am that after laying there for 5 hours I'm not asleep and worried about oversleeping or just having to go to work without sleep to not risk being scolded about showing up late again.
I've had this experience lately of waking up around 3 or 4 AM and having a hard time falling back asleep for 30 mins or so. Nothing catastrophic, but a bit annoying.
To address this, I've tried a couple of different things to help sleep: melatonin; and valerian root extract.
The valerian root worked great, until one night it gave me the worst sleep paralysis night terror of all time. Sleep paralysis is nothing new to me. Getting it once every other month or so, it's a bit unpleasant, but far from terrifying. Sometimes I can even leverage it to induce a lucid dream. But this was on a whole other level, with a full blown out-of-body hallucination and a demonic face across room that locked me in a state of raw horror and doom. Also, it made me feel mildly hung-over in the morning.
Never taking that stuff again!
Melatonin on the other hand, perfectly fine. I take a 3mg supplement with L-Theanine 1 hr before I want to sleep. Makes me nice and drowsy, and I sleep like a baby through the night. Can't speak to how it affects dreams because I have dreams every night anyway even without it. But overall really good experience.
To address this, I've tried a couple of different things to help sleep: melatonin; and valerian root extract.
The valerian root worked great, until one night it gave me the worst sleep paralysis night terror of all time. Sleep paralysis is nothing new to me. Getting it once every other month or so, it's a bit unpleasant, but far from terrifying. Sometimes I can even leverage it to induce a lucid dream. But this was on a whole other level, with a full blown out-of-body hallucination and a demonic face across room that locked me in a state of raw horror and doom. Also, it made me feel mildly hung-over in the morning.
Never taking that stuff again!
Melatonin on the other hand, perfectly fine. I take a 3mg supplement with L-Theanine 1 hr before I want to sleep. Makes me nice and drowsy, and I sleep like a baby through the night. Can't speak to how it affects dreams because I have dreams every night anyway even without it. But overall really good experience.
That sleep "problem" may not be a problem; plenty of evidence suggests that before we invented electric lights, segmented sleep was the norm.
These links might get you started on the topic:
https://www.sciencealert.com/humans-used-to-sleep-in-two-shi...
https://www.medievalists.net/2016/01/how-did-people-sleep-in...
These links might get you started on the topic:
https://www.sciencealert.com/humans-used-to-sleep-in-two-shi...
https://www.medievalists.net/2016/01/how-did-people-sleep-in...
Ah yes, the valerian nightmares lol. I used to take 200-500mg and had those occasionally. It is a good anxilyotic otherwise, sadly tolerance builds up real fast.
How much valerian did you take? I often drink Celestial Sleepytime Extra, that contains 25mg in each teabag.
To be fair, it was way too much. Something like 4x the recommended amount. My reasoning was "more valerian means more sleepy" couldn't have been more wrong. 25mg teabag is probably like 10% what I was at.
I still enjoy valerian if it's in tea. Just not in a pill supplement form anymore.
I still enjoy valerian if it's in tea. Just not in a pill supplement form anymore.
You can also try sitting up in bed and meditating until tired.
Meditation is great and I enjoy it :) Relaxing and falling asleep isn't a problem for me. Just waking up in the middle of the night feeling wide awake is a bummer sometimes. Yes I can relax and fall back asleep again but it's a bummer that it happens at all.
I used to work 7pm - 7am night shift. 3 days on, 4 days off one week and 4 days on, 3 days off the next. With lots of melatonin, exercise and careful adherence to my bizarre schedule I was able to train my body into a diurnal inversion cyclical sleep schedule. As soon as my 3/4 day work week was over I would -- over the course of one day -- inverter myself back to being awake during the day. When my weekend was over I would invert back to sleeping during the day. I did this for years.
Work day 1: wake up 12pm, sleep 7am
Work day 2: same
Work day 3: same
Day off 1: wake up 12 pm, sleep at 10pm
Day off 2: wake up 8am, sleep 10pm
Day off 3: wake up 8 am, sleep 1am
Day off 4: wake up 12pm, sleep 3am
Repeat.
Melatonin was literally the only way I managed that.
Work day 1: wake up 12pm, sleep 7am
Work day 2: same
Work day 3: same
Day off 1: wake up 12 pm, sleep at 10pm
Day off 2: wake up 8am, sleep 10pm
Day off 3: wake up 8 am, sleep 1am
Day off 4: wake up 12pm, sleep 3am
Repeat.
Melatonin was literally the only way I managed that.
I started to gradually notice some tossing and turning throughout the night in my mid 30s. I began taking one 100mg capsule of magnesium citrate right before I attempt to go to sleep. Has worked exceptionally well for about seven years now. Knocks me out, with no negative reaction to the magnesium (some people apparently have a negative stomach and or bowel reaction to magnesium supplements; I haven't attempted high doses). If I don't take it, I go right back to not sleeping soundly. The sleep feels high quality as well, I'm never groggy in the morning. And it's inexpensive, sub $2 per month. For something in the realm of more mild or typical restful sleep problems, definitely try it.
My wife suffered from sleeping issues for a very long time. She tried everything under the sun including nytol, sublingual melatonin , slow release melatonin, passiflora and other teas. Nothing really helped her until eventually someone suggested ZMA (a zinc magnesium complex used by bodybuilders ) . That was a saving pill for her and fixed her sleep.
My experience also. Melatonin did absolutely nothing.
ZMA makes me drowsy within minutes. I can fight that off but will eventually succumb. The only side-effect I've noticed other than the incredibly vidid and sometimes nightmarish dreams is that the effect will linger long into the next day.
Mind you, the sleep is incredibly deep and restorative. It's not like some other sleeping pills that just knock you out, but you never reach REM sleep, waking up feeling tired.
ZMA makes me drowsy within minutes. I can fight that off but will eventually succumb. The only side-effect I've noticed other than the incredibly vidid and sometimes nightmarish dreams is that the effect will linger long into the next day.
Mind you, the sleep is incredibly deep and restorative. It's not like some other sleeping pills that just knock you out, but you never reach REM sleep, waking up feeling tired.
I'm jealous. I've tried Melatonin, regular Magnesium and ZMA. No effect whatsoever.
Amazed at the dosages of melatonin that people will take without thinking about it. It seems that the side effect profile is a lot greater than most people let on.
https://impossible.co/blogs/health/melatonin-side-effects
I've found a magnesium + l-theanine combo works wonders without any hormone interference or dependency issues to worry about.
https://impossible.co/blogs/health/melatonin-side-effects
I've found a magnesium + l-theanine combo works wonders without any hormone interference or dependency issues to worry about.
Can you get l-theanine out of tea or is that infeasible?
Totally feasible depending on the dosage you're looking for. You just may end up drinking a decent amount of tea (which some people don't love doing before bed).
To add, theanine extraction increases with the time you steep the tea, but so does the caffeine content…
Melatonin is not like a sleeping pill where more will necessarily make you more drowsy. It is a hormone that signals to your body that it is time to sleep. I can't find it right now, but there was a study of different doses in a large number of people that determined that just 0.2mg was more effective than larger doses for most people. And I've found that's true for me too. When I use melatonin, I use 0.2mg, and I fall asleep within half an hour, sleep a full night, and wake up feeling refreshed. If I use a larger dose, I sleep even less well than I would without a supplement.
I suggest to anyone who is taking 1mg or larger doses to experiment with a "microdose" of 0.2mg and see how it affects you.
I suggest to anyone who is taking 1mg or larger doses to experiment with a "microdose" of 0.2mg and see how it affects you.
The best melatonin pills would be both chewable and small dosage, but unfortunately they are hard to find. I suspect manufacturers have a hard time selling smaller doses because people think they’re getting a superior product with larger doses.
Personally I settled for a 500mcg chewable dose that I split in half with a pill splitter.
Personally I settled for a 500mcg chewable dose that I split in half with a pill splitter.
Try melatonin drops. The ones I use are 1.5mg for 10 drops, which means I only take 2-3 drops.
They also last a reaaaly long time for me, because I take such a low dosage and I don't use them everyday.
They also last a reaaaly long time for me, because I take such a low dosage and I don't use them everyday.
Sublingual tablets have always worked best for me.
For higher dose people, I would investigate a smaller dose that dissolves in your mouth/under your tongue.
For higher dose people, I would investigate a smaller dose that dissolves in your mouth/under your tongue.
It's referenced in the article - https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/86/10/4727/2849013
In general - I'm surprised people take melatonin so casually without realizing that it's a hormone - not a mineral or amino acid like other sleep aids - https://impossible.co/blogs/health/melatonin-side-effects
In general - I'm surprised people take melatonin so casually without realizing that it's a hormone - not a mineral or amino acid like other sleep aids - https://impossible.co/blogs/health/melatonin-side-effects
It’s not a hormone. It’s an antioxidant.
This type of comment isn't helpful.
A hormone describes the type of compound something is. An antioxidant describes its behavior. They're not mutually exclusive.
A hormone describes the type of compound something is. An antioxidant describes its behavior. They're not mutually exclusive.
It's both.
Out of the 3 billion years it is mostly a multitasking antioxidant. Sleep is only a small portion of what the molecule does.
I tried not to downvote your comments but "this molecule has existed for 3,000,000,000 years" is completely unrelated to whether it is a hormone — it is a hormone that is emitted by every normal human's pineal gland in the brain every night.
Whatever else it might be... you should stop.
Whatever else it might be... you should stop.
I use 0.25mg and agree completely. The most annoying part is I can't find any pills less than 1mg so have to do a shitty job of separating them into 4 quarters.
Nootropics Depot sells melatonin in 0.3mg pills.
can be sure whether the content is equally distributed across all quarters ?
Melatonin helped me with my sleep a bit, but never a lot. What did help is much brighter light during the day (on a timer, so the lighting would become dark in the evening) and adding to the basically-useless blue-light filters on my devices some automatic timed screen brightness changes.
I used to have circadian rhythm disorders. The most common pattern for me was the pattern of delayed sleep-wake disorder i.e. night owl disorder. I also experienced non-24 hour sleep-wake disorder, where you go to bed at a different time every "night", offset by an hour or two. At my worst, I experienced irregular sleep-wake disorder, which consists of many short naps throughout the day, with no pattern from day to day. Comorbid with depression, of course. Even the most mild (delayed sleep-wake disorder) is like 50% comorbid with depression.
Fortunately I'm now mentally healthy and free from sleep issues, and I attribute that mostly to the lighting changes I've made to my apartment. I've also heard these kinds of changes can help with SAD if the lights are bright enough. Look up how bright the sun is, and try to get your apartment to at least 10% of that. (100% is still too expensive, and 10% seems to work fine.) Note that most indoor lighting is usually closer to 1%.
P.S. this is essentially "light therapy" which they prescribe with those pathetic little light boxes, but if you look up the amount of light they give off, it's not nearly enough (and not for a long enough period). Hence why the stupid light boxes had no effect, but my own lighting setup changed my sleep dramatically. Here is a setup similar to my own: https://arbital.com/p/lumenators/
P.P.S Another thing you can try if you have circadian rhythm issues is to exercise hard in the morning right at your desired wake-up time. I never had to try it, but I did see a promising study in mice that showed it could reset their circadian rhythm more dramatically than anything else.
P.P.P.S If your sleep issues are not circadian in nature, don't bother with melatonin. You develop a tolerance to the sedative effects of melatonin pretty quickly, in my experience.
I used to have circadian rhythm disorders. The most common pattern for me was the pattern of delayed sleep-wake disorder i.e. night owl disorder. I also experienced non-24 hour sleep-wake disorder, where you go to bed at a different time every "night", offset by an hour or two. At my worst, I experienced irregular sleep-wake disorder, which consists of many short naps throughout the day, with no pattern from day to day. Comorbid with depression, of course. Even the most mild (delayed sleep-wake disorder) is like 50% comorbid with depression.
Fortunately I'm now mentally healthy and free from sleep issues, and I attribute that mostly to the lighting changes I've made to my apartment. I've also heard these kinds of changes can help with SAD if the lights are bright enough. Look up how bright the sun is, and try to get your apartment to at least 10% of that. (100% is still too expensive, and 10% seems to work fine.) Note that most indoor lighting is usually closer to 1%.
P.S. this is essentially "light therapy" which they prescribe with those pathetic little light boxes, but if you look up the amount of light they give off, it's not nearly enough (and not for a long enough period). Hence why the stupid light boxes had no effect, but my own lighting setup changed my sleep dramatically. Here is a setup similar to my own: https://arbital.com/p/lumenators/
P.P.S Another thing you can try if you have circadian rhythm issues is to exercise hard in the morning right at your desired wake-up time. I never had to try it, but I did see a promising study in mice that showed it could reset their circadian rhythm more dramatically than anything else.
P.P.P.S If your sleep issues are not circadian in nature, don't bother with melatonin. You develop a tolerance to the sedative effects of melatonin pretty quickly, in my experience.
I've been wondering about lighting brightness for a while now. Lighting still leaves rooms kind of dark - not even as bright as they look like with daylight, let alone the sun shining through the window. In nature the sun wouldn't be shining through a window either - it would be all around you. Should we perhaps get brighter lighting overall? Would that help with sleep issues? Eyesight?
[deleted]
Does anyone have any tips/advice to solve the inverse problem which is waking up on a regular schedule?
I mostly follow sleep best practices - no phone before sleep, sleeping at a regular time, meditation, blackout curtains, no caffeine after noon, etc and am able to fall asleep. But however I have a problem with waking up. I either need 9+ hours of sleep or I’m awake in just 5 hours - almost a bimodal distribution. The lack of consistency makes it very frustrating to plan the day. Considering I got to bed around the same time each day, not being to able to wake up on the same time is quite puzzling to me.
I mostly follow sleep best practices - no phone before sleep, sleeping at a regular time, meditation, blackout curtains, no caffeine after noon, etc and am able to fall asleep. But however I have a problem with waking up. I either need 9+ hours of sleep or I’m awake in just 5 hours - almost a bimodal distribution. The lack of consistency makes it very frustrating to plan the day. Considering I got to bed around the same time each day, not being to able to wake up on the same time is quite puzzling to me.
As a night owl, I abandoned the consistent bedtime approach and went with a pure consistent waketime. The approach that worked for me was having the same wake time, irrespective of time of year, light levels, or tiredness. There are some days when I'm a zombie because I messed up and stayed up too late, but I treat that as a negative reinforcement learning.
The second step was to immediately get out of bed. No matter how warm it was, or how tired I am, no matter how much my brain protested. I moved my alarm to the other side of the room to facilitate this.
What made it stick for me was giving myself permission to be sleepy after the alarm, but not be sleepy in my bed. Many days I stop my alarm, and immediately go to the couch and give my brain some time to boot up before even going to the bathroom or having breakfast
It might be worth saying I _only_ sleep in bed (no reading, no phone, only sleep) and I make sure to _never_ sleep on the couch
The second step was to immediately get out of bed. No matter how warm it was, or how tired I am, no matter how much my brain protested. I moved my alarm to the other side of the room to facilitate this.
What made it stick for me was giving myself permission to be sleepy after the alarm, but not be sleepy in my bed. Many days I stop my alarm, and immediately go to the couch and give my brain some time to boot up before even going to the bathroom or having breakfast
It might be worth saying I _only_ sleep in bed (no reading, no phone, only sleep) and I make sure to _never_ sleep on the couch
Thanks for the detailed write up. Quite a few actionable ideas for me to experiment with. This is helpful!
5 hours is almost certainly not enough, and plenty of people need more than 8 hours, so 9 hours is probably what you need.
Are you able to go back to sleep after 5 hours if you try?
For a lot of people anxiety is the culprit -- for some people it prevents them from falling asleep, for others it wakes them up early. If anxiety is coming and going in your life, whether on a daily or weekly basis, that might be the explanation for the 5-hour nights.
Are you able to go back to sleep after 5 hours if you try?
For a lot of people anxiety is the culprit -- for some people it prevents them from falling asleep, for others it wakes them up early. If anxiety is coming and going in your life, whether on a daily or weekly basis, that might be the explanation for the 5-hour nights.
I've read (or might be a YT video) that this could be genetic, some people have evolved to wake up at certain hours (something about provide protection to other tribe members).
This is all from my recollection, so you'll have to google around to get the scientific details.
This is all from my recollection, so you'll have to google around to get the scientific details.
> 5. I try to use melatonin for sleep, but it just gives me weird dreams and makes me wake up very early
Story of my life. I just noticed because of this article that I have more weird dreams since I'm taking melatonin. Yesterday I took one and woke up at 4am after having a super weird dream.
Story of my life. I just noticed because of this article that I have more weird dreams since I'm taking melatonin. Yesterday I took one and woke up at 4am after having a super weird dream.
I had something similar happen after around two months taking 2mg each evening. I started waking regularly. I Quite for a month then started having a quarter tablet every few nights, and the experience has not repeated itself.
My wife can only sleep during regular night hours with Melatonin. It improved her quality of life so much. We even blind tested her three times with identical pills at night and the nights with placebo melatonin had no sleep each time.
> What is the right dose of melatonin? 0.3 mg. "But my local drugstore sells 10 mg pills!..."
The article goes into depth about debates about the right dose. What I was told is that you just have to experiment yourself.
I've personally found for myself, when I have to shift my bedtime/schedule a few hours earlier:
- The 3 mg tablets (smallest I could find at my drugstore) get me to sleep no problem... but them I'm groggy the next day until late afternoon. The melatonin is clearly still in my system, the whole day I just want to nap. So way too much
- The supposedly "correct" 0.3 mg (1/10th of a tablet) gets me to sleep basically just as well... but then I wake up constantly throughout the night and sleep really lightly. I have to assume the melatonin wears off, and I don't have enough naturally produced to fully compensate
- A quarter-tablet (0.75 mg) is just right. Sleep like a log, but not groggy in the morning.
The right dose for you may be different, but I hope that maybe helps people identify the signs of too much or too little. And it's not too hard to cut the tablets as well with just a paring knife or something.
I've also heard that the actual strength of drugstore melatonin tablets is not necessarily even remotely consistent across brands, I don't know if that's true or not. But it might be a good reason, once you've determined your optimal dose with a brand, to stick to it.
The article goes into depth about debates about the right dose. What I was told is that you just have to experiment yourself.
I've personally found for myself, when I have to shift my bedtime/schedule a few hours earlier:
- The 3 mg tablets (smallest I could find at my drugstore) get me to sleep no problem... but them I'm groggy the next day until late afternoon. The melatonin is clearly still in my system, the whole day I just want to nap. So way too much
- The supposedly "correct" 0.3 mg (1/10th of a tablet) gets me to sleep basically just as well... but then I wake up constantly throughout the night and sleep really lightly. I have to assume the melatonin wears off, and I don't have enough naturally produced to fully compensate
- A quarter-tablet (0.75 mg) is just right. Sleep like a log, but not groggy in the morning.
The right dose for you may be different, but I hope that maybe helps people identify the signs of too much or too little. And it's not too hard to cut the tablets as well with just a paring knife or something.
I've also heard that the actual strength of drugstore melatonin tablets is not necessarily even remotely consistent across brands, I don't know if that's true or not. But it might be a good reason, once you've determined your optimal dose with a brand, to stick to it.
I take ~6mg Melatonin regularly 1hour before I decide to sleep. It also has another important use, i.e. reducing inflammation in the body. Helps with autoimmune along with Vitamin D3.
I wonder how many folks that are taking Melatonin are coffee drinkers?
I spent years trying to crack my sleep issues. Blackout curtains, magnesium malate / citrate, no electronic devices for an hour before bed, CBD oil, even stronger CBD oil, different doses of Melatonin, 5-HTP, valerian extract, sleep apnea tests.
It never really significantly occured to me that it would be coffee as I believed I had ruled this out. I was already stopping coffee at 12pm and tried to limit to two cups. I also enjoyed coffee a lot, I spent good money on artisan roasted beans, a grinder and an aeropress (including one for travelling). Coffee is good for you right, antioxidants etc! Everyone drinks coffee and I can get it anywhere 24/7.
I decided it must be worth trying to drop it as an elimination test to see if it might help. I came across a reddit comment from a google search, where someone had quit caffeine and had a lot of success.
First few attempts failed, but eventually managed to get a day one out of the way (the stuff is addictive).
First 3-4 days were tough to put it mildly, constant pumping headaches and extreme fatigue. However around day 5 something wonderful happened. I had one of the most deep satisfying sleeps I had in years, it was like the sort of sleep a child has. Deep R.E.M level sleep with a vivid dream. I work up with a feeling of being deeply nourished. I actually cried as I was so happy I had found an answer.
I am now caffeine free for 10 months and I can still feel myself healing and the layers of the onion being peeled away. I very rarely get anxious now and my productivity at work is back at where it was when drinking coffee, but the difference is my focus is much better. On coffee I was like a scatter gun, whereas now it's more of a less manic focus.
I continue to sleep great, all night, no more 3 am wake ups. On the rare occasion that I do wake, I don't find myself in this delirium / anxious state where I proceed to toss and turn, instead I feel really at ease and drop off again.
Caffeine really gets played down as harmless (and perhaps for some it may be), but there are so many folks around that are suffering with sleep issues that could solve this by quitting. Caffeine binds to your adenosine-receptors. When adenosine binds to its receptors, neural activity slows down, and you feel sleepy. Adenosine facilitates sleep and dilates the blood vessels, probably to ensure good oxygenation during sleep. Caffeine blocks these receptors thereby removing the feeling of being sleepy. Studies are limited, but I wonder if the long term impact of playing with your biochemistry day after day for years has a bigger impact than we know of. It also increases cortisol the stress hormone, so this is where the anxiety comes from, cortisol is akin to 'fight or flight'.
I spent years trying to crack my sleep issues. Blackout curtains, magnesium malate / citrate, no electronic devices for an hour before bed, CBD oil, even stronger CBD oil, different doses of Melatonin, 5-HTP, valerian extract, sleep apnea tests.
It never really significantly occured to me that it would be coffee as I believed I had ruled this out. I was already stopping coffee at 12pm and tried to limit to two cups. I also enjoyed coffee a lot, I spent good money on artisan roasted beans, a grinder and an aeropress (including one for travelling). Coffee is good for you right, antioxidants etc! Everyone drinks coffee and I can get it anywhere 24/7.
I decided it must be worth trying to drop it as an elimination test to see if it might help. I came across a reddit comment from a google search, where someone had quit caffeine and had a lot of success.
First few attempts failed, but eventually managed to get a day one out of the way (the stuff is addictive).
First 3-4 days were tough to put it mildly, constant pumping headaches and extreme fatigue. However around day 5 something wonderful happened. I had one of the most deep satisfying sleeps I had in years, it was like the sort of sleep a child has. Deep R.E.M level sleep with a vivid dream. I work up with a feeling of being deeply nourished. I actually cried as I was so happy I had found an answer.
I am now caffeine free for 10 months and I can still feel myself healing and the layers of the onion being peeled away. I very rarely get anxious now and my productivity at work is back at where it was when drinking coffee, but the difference is my focus is much better. On coffee I was like a scatter gun, whereas now it's more of a less manic focus.
I continue to sleep great, all night, no more 3 am wake ups. On the rare occasion that I do wake, I don't find myself in this delirium / anxious state where I proceed to toss and turn, instead I feel really at ease and drop off again.
Caffeine really gets played down as harmless (and perhaps for some it may be), but there are so many folks around that are suffering with sleep issues that could solve this by quitting. Caffeine binds to your adenosine-receptors. When adenosine binds to its receptors, neural activity slows down, and you feel sleepy. Adenosine facilitates sleep and dilates the blood vessels, probably to ensure good oxygenation during sleep. Caffeine blocks these receptors thereby removing the feeling of being sleepy. Studies are limited, but I wonder if the long term impact of playing with your biochemistry day after day for years has a bigger impact than we know of. It also increases cortisol the stress hormone, so this is where the anxiety comes from, cortisol is akin to 'fight or flight'.
Caffeine is not just harmless, every meta-analysis suggests it's beneficial for the majority and actively reduces all-cause mortality. I've quit it for months at a time but it hasn't made me feel less tired when I do, the opposite in fact.
Of course, there's people like you for which it helps less than hurts but all large studies I can find suggest you are in the minority, not majority.
Of course, there's people like you for which it helps less than hurts but all large studies I can find suggest you are in the minority, not majority.
> Caffeine is not just harmless, every meta-analysis suggests it's beneficial for the majority and actively reduces all-cause mortality.
You're conflating caffeine with coffee, specifically coffees non-caffeine properties.
If you're referring to the Harvard study, that is coffee and its antioxidant properties, they even state [0] "and it doesn’t appear to matter if the coffee is caffeinated or decaf, brewed or instant."
The same antioxidants are widely available in many plant based foods and beyond, something lacking in an American diet, so coffee in that context is beneficial I guess.
However, the caffeine in itself does nothing to reduce mortality, its primary role in plants is an insecticide. In humans its classed as a neurotoxin.
caffeine has no health benefits, beyond cognitive, so sure it might stop you crashing your car if driving tired, but that's about the extent of it.
[0] https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/coffee-lo...
You're conflating caffeine with coffee, specifically coffees non-caffeine properties.
If you're referring to the Harvard study, that is coffee and its antioxidant properties, they even state [0] "and it doesn’t appear to matter if the coffee is caffeinated or decaf, brewed or instant."
The same antioxidants are widely available in many plant based foods and beyond, something lacking in an American diet, so coffee in that context is beneficial I guess.
However, the caffeine in itself does nothing to reduce mortality, its primary role in plants is an insecticide. In humans its classed as a neurotoxin.
caffeine has no health benefits, beyond cognitive, so sure it might stop you crashing your car if driving tired, but that's about the extent of it.
[0] https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/coffee-lo...
Yes, I meant coffee though other common methods of ingesting caffeine like tea don't seem to be far off. And no, there's other studies (not sure which one this is from the article you linked).
This recent meta-analysis reviews 40 studies.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31055709/
This recent meta-analysis reviews 40 studies.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31055709/
The linked meta-study also out rules caffeine
> An inverse association between coffee consumption and all-cause mortality was maintained irrespective of age, overweight status, alcohol drinking, smoking status, and caffeine content of coffee.
> An inverse association between coffee consumption and all-cause mortality was maintained irrespective of age, overweight status, alcohol drinking, smoking status, and caffeine content of coffee.
FWIW I've found supplementing Lions Mane interacts very nicely with caffeine.
It takes the edge off the caffeine high, and largely eliminates all the awful withdrawal symptoms when quitting.
For decades I stayed away from the stuff because I'm quite sensitive to it and hate the quick forming dependency. Lions Mane has put it back on the table as a useful productivity boosting tool. I no longer even bat an eye about quitting cold turkey after a solid week of heavy use. If I know the next day will be the cessation day, I'll take an extra Lions Mane before bed and the next day won't even have the slightest headache.
Still waiting for the other shoe to drop on this, because so far there hasn't been any negative side effects. Though it may be worth noting when taking the supplement at night I tend to wake up in a semi lucid dreaming state, which is otherwise uncommon for me.
YMMV
It takes the edge off the caffeine high, and largely eliminates all the awful withdrawal symptoms when quitting.
For decades I stayed away from the stuff because I'm quite sensitive to it and hate the quick forming dependency. Lions Mane has put it back on the table as a useful productivity boosting tool. I no longer even bat an eye about quitting cold turkey after a solid week of heavy use. If I know the next day will be the cessation day, I'll take an extra Lions Mane before bed and the next day won't even have the slightest headache.
Still waiting for the other shoe to drop on this, because so far there hasn't been any negative side effects. Though it may be worth noting when taking the supplement at night I tend to wake up in a semi lucid dreaming state, which is otherwise uncommon for me.
YMMV
I share your experiences with caffeine withdrawal.
I bought a really good Espresso machine. Quite fun, for me. Now I drink a really good cup on a sunday and then go a few days without even.
There is nothing that can touch it. Not the free coffee at work, which I now regard as insidious, or coffee places. They usually ruin the milk, if you hear an unpleasant sound while steaming, they are doing it wrong.
Also works with alcohol and food for me. We have too much of everything, hence why fasting is such a real life cheat code, but nothing of quality.
I bought a really good Espresso machine. Quite fun, for me. Now I drink a really good cup on a sunday and then go a few days without even.
There is nothing that can touch it. Not the free coffee at work, which I now regard as insidious, or coffee places. They usually ruin the milk, if you hear an unpleasant sound while steaming, they are doing it wrong.
Also works with alcohol and food for me. We have too much of everything, hence why fasting is such a real life cheat code, but nothing of quality.
Once I learned the half-life of caffeine is 5-9 hours, I started a rule where I only had caffeinated coffee before noon, and decaf after. Night and day difference (heh) in my sleep quality.
Perhaps 12pm didn't work for you because caffeine stuck around longer in your body compared to mine. Did you ever try an earlier cutoff time?
Perhaps 12pm didn't work for you because caffeine stuck around longer in your body compared to mine. Did you ever try an earlier cutoff time?
I don't think there is a hard rule around half life times, individuals metabolise it differently. Its also not just about the caffeine leaving your system, but the impact of cortisol being increased along with any other stresses you might have on any given day.
I honestly prefer not drinking it all now. I operate better, feel more relaxed and its nice not having an addictive dependence to plan around (although its a less problematic one as coffee addiction is well catered towards). It's one of the best things I have ever done to improve my life, why would I want to try and sneak a bit back in.
I honestly prefer not drinking it all now. I operate better, feel more relaxed and its nice not having an addictive dependence to plan around (although its a less problematic one as coffee addiction is well catered towards). It's one of the best things I have ever done to improve my life, why would I want to try and sneak a bit back in.
The effect of caffeine is controlled by several genes.
One is the CYP1A2 gene that encodes for a liver enzyme critical for the metabolism of caffeine. Another is the AHR gene, which controls when and how the CYP1A2 gene is switched on and off. The general population have variants of these genes and so experience different response to similar doses.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3777290/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3777290/
Same here, except a 3pm cutoff has been adequate. That said, I usually have just one cup a day, and many (most?) other coffee drinkers seem to have more per day than I do. How long it stays in the body is about both how much coffee _and_ how late.
If I were a heavy enough coffee drinker, maybe I'd even have to limit myself to before 10am only, to get sleep improvements?
If I were a heavy enough coffee drinker, maybe I'd even have to limit myself to before 10am only, to get sleep improvements?
[deleted]
I only intermittently used melatonin, mostly to help me normalize when on the you’re-in-your-20s-and-working-hard-and-playing-hard Bay Area lifestyle (that so was deleterious)! The last couple of times I used it (now years ago), was to help get me back on schedule after jet lag.
For my body, it was a prime example of less-is-more: a soft, minuscule dosage would soothe me to sleep when sunlight diminished; more would give me terrifying dreams. The flip side is the moment the sun rises, — boom — involuntarily awake!
I think it affected my light sensitivity permanently, even years after stopping. I am extremely thankful to be living in a part of the world these days (D-A-CH), where good blackout shutters are commonly built into residential windows.
For my body, it was a prime example of less-is-more: a soft, minuscule dosage would soothe me to sleep when sunlight diminished; more would give me terrifying dreams. The flip side is the moment the sun rises, — boom — involuntarily awake!
I think it affected my light sensitivity permanently, even years after stopping. I am extremely thankful to be living in a part of the world these days (D-A-CH), where good blackout shutters are commonly built into residential windows.
Webber Super Sleep (melatonin, 5-HTP, L-Theanine) changed my life for the much, much better
Hmmph... I'm taking 20mg most nights. One 10mg at bedtime, then another 5 hours later if I wake up again.
Even that isn't enough to really put me to sleep if I'm stressed out.
For me, "more is more" seems to be true...
Even that isn't enough to really put me to sleep if I'm stressed out.
For me, "more is more" seems to be true...
> For me, "more is more" seems to be true...
Sounds like its not working too good for you, so I don't understand why you would write that.
Sounds like its not working too good for you, so I don't understand why you would write that.
Others pointed out, that melantonin is not the right thing, if your are stressed out. It is just a signal to the body to maybe go to sleep. Convincing your mind to let go, is still your job. (or take another drug) But maybe find a night ritual, that helps with that.
If you're stressed out and have trouble falling asleep, you could look into a 'body scan' routine when you lay in bed. Lots of guides to find about it, but it's simply focusing on parts of your body and on your breathing.
[deleted]
Melatonin is a hormone, and is contraindicated for those with existing or predisposition to mental health conditions. In fact, that used to be a warning on the label in NY state.
It's not something to play with.
It's not something to play with.
It is if you accept the risks. Everything should be something to "play with".
Never worked for me in any dosage, anyway, hopefully it works for others.
Doesn't really matter in Europe since it's prescription only like anything else half useful. Living like a bunch of idiot slaves over here.
Never worked for me in any dosage, anyway, hopefully it works for others.
Doesn't really matter in Europe since it's prescription only like anything else half useful. Living like a bunch of idiot slaves over here.
Melatonin, at its normal dose, is over the counter in every single European country i can think of.
Was this comment just a poor excuse to be xenophobic?
Was this comment just a poor excuse to be xenophobic?
>Doesn't really matter in Europe since it's prescription only
It's over the counter in Hungary. Is it presciption only where you live?
It's over the counter in Hungary. Is it presciption only where you live?
It's not universally prescription-only in Europe. (E.g. here in Germany it is if packaged as medicine, but lower doses are available as non-medical products)
EDIT: looked it up, the latter category is also authorized through EU regulations, so likely EU-wide unless individual countries have specifically decided to ban them (which I think they still can in this case)
EDIT: looked it up, the latter category is also authorized through EU regulations, so likely EU-wide unless individual countries have specifically decided to ban them (which I think they still can in this case)
It is prescription only in the UK. I believe you also end up with pretty low dosages too... I think 0.3 mg sounds familiar.
It's also unregulated and the actual dosage compared to the label can be wildly different, and can even be contaminated.
> I think you could make an argument for anything up to 1 mg. Anything beyond that and you’re definitely too high
So, should I take the whole 1 mg pill or divide it into smaller doses?
So, should I take the whole 1 mg pill or divide it into smaller doses?
According to the Late Great Alexander Shulgin the recommended dose is 1-10mg orally.
TiHKAL #35 Melatonin with an exceptionally long Extensions and Commentary section: https://isomerdesign.com/PiHKAL/read.php?domain=tk&id=35
TiHKAL #35 Melatonin with an exceptionally long Extensions and Commentary section: https://isomerdesign.com/PiHKAL/read.php?domain=tk&id=35
1mg in a pill that dissolves under the tongue works great for me. Very fast.
Doesn’t knock me out. But, if I’m already on the way to sleep, it gets me there faster. And, the sleep is a lot deeper. Wackier dreams right into the morning. More rested when I wake up.
If I know I’m going to have a hard time falling asleep, I’ll wait a bit after getting in bed and only pop the pill under the tongue when I’m relaxed enough. Otherwise, it not effective.
Doesn’t knock me out. But, if I’m already on the way to sleep, it gets me there faster. And, the sleep is a lot deeper. Wackier dreams right into the morning. More rested when I wake up.
If I know I’m going to have a hard time falling asleep, I’ll wait a bit after getting in bed and only pop the pill under the tongue when I’m relaxed enough. Otherwise, it not effective.
I found a liquid melatonin on Amazon that let's me dose 0.3mg. I take it 30-60m before and it definitely makes me tired. I still have to go with it though and put myself in bed to sleep; sometimes I end up powering through and end up more awake :d
I use melatonin gummies, which are easily divided to get a sufficiently small does without much work, highly recommended
I often found that small doses of Melatonin worked much better for me and didn't give me headaches the next day. I buy the smaller dose available (3mg at my store though some places have 1mg too). I split the 3mg into half. So I take around 1.5mg which works good enough for me.
I also found the fancier "Melatonin Plus with L-Theanine and 5-HTP" to be not just expensive but also gave me severe headaches next day.
I also found the fancier "Melatonin Plus with L-Theanine and 5-HTP" to be not just expensive but also gave me severe headaches next day.
I used melatonin for about 7 years before i stopped it because it gave me vertigo. I am not 100% sure that melatonin was direct contributor to my vertigo, but my vertigo did get better after i stopped using melatonin.
Please research the side effects before you try this. It is not completly harmless because its 'natural'/ otc ect , i think its even regulated in some countries like the UK.
Please research the side effects before you try this. It is not completly harmless because its 'natural'/ otc ect , i think its even regulated in some countries like the UK.
> Most existing melatonin tablets are around ten to thirty times the correct dose
I wonder how common this is in pharmacology.
I wonder how common this is in pharmacology.
Potassium has a recommended daily intake of around 3500-4500 mg. The largest pill supplement I've seen is 600 mg. Most are in the 200-300 mg range. 99 mg in the US A banana is 300-400 mg of potassium in comparison.
Meanwhile you can go to the grocery store and buy "low sodium salt" by the kilogram where half the NaCl is replaced by KCl.
Meanwhile you can go to the grocery store and buy "low sodium salt" by the kilogram where half the NaCl is replaced by KCl.
The RDA for vitamin D was found to be far too low (due to a maths error).
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/03/150317122458.h...
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/03/150317122458.h...
Given that I can go to Walgreens and get homeopathic stuff that's a few orders of magnitude further in the opposite direction...
Not uncommon, I think. You can also grab a random multivitamin off the shelf and you regularly find stuff in there at 5-100x daily recommended doses (though those are generally things safe for significantly higher doses for extended periods, e.g. vitamin c)
Not uncommon, I think. You can also grab a random multivitamin off the shelf and you regularly find stuff in there at 5-100x daily recommended doses (though those are generally things safe for significantly higher doses for extended periods, e.g. vitamin c)
> I've suffered with 2.5mg before for long enough to understand that it doesn't work for me, no matter how many studies you have with 95% CL that the dose is much lower. The 5mg tablets work much better for me.
Well, have you tried 0.5mg and lower? That was the point of the article, I think.
Well, have you tried 0.5mg and lower? That was the point of the article, I think.
I read this sst post when it originally came out and decided to experiment with taking 0.3mg melatonin every evening. I started to get heart flutters that literally lasted all day. Stopped as soon as I stopped taking melatonin.
Melatonin is also the most powerful known antioxidant:
https://www.mdpi.com/2076-3921/9/11/1088/pdf
https://www.mdpi.com/2076-3921/9/11/1088/pdf
What I liked about melatonin was the YEAH READY TO GO when waking up.
Useful when my schedule was working on the car before work.
But I really try not to take it anymore. The blue light glasses are sufficient.
Useful when my schedule was working on the car before work.
But I really try not to take it anymore. The blue light glasses are sufficient.
I have found melatonin supplements very effective for jet lag but I am hesitant to take any sleep supplement for more than a day or two in a row for fear of dependence.
Slow release variants are the ones I go for jet lag. 2.5mg slow release melatonin usually does the job. If you wake up it kicks in again enough for you to fall asleep relatively quickly.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17632668 266 comments
I don't think his "What is the right dose of melatonin?" is correct.
My doctor told me to take 3mg. 3mg really works well for me. Anything less and I don't sleep.
My doctor told me to take 3mg. 3mg really works well for me. Anything less and I don't sleep.
Using it as a sedative is different from the 0.3mg purpose the writer alludes to.
> I am not a sleep specialist.
Then you shouldn't be writing an article about sleep as if you were an expert. Why on Earth should I trust anything this man says if the first line of the article is about how he's not qualified to give the advice he's giving?
Then you shouldn't be writing an article about sleep as if you were an expert. Why on Earth should I trust anything this man says if the first line of the article is about how he's not qualified to give the advice he's giving?
He's a qualified practising psychiatrist. When he says "I am not a sleep specialist" he means it in the same way your mechanic means he's not a Toyota specialist.
I sort of got past that, but later in the piece author gives a "parsimonious theory" of why Melatonin makes people wake up early, I just closed the tab, they were basically just guessing
A single correct dose is a myth.
The author even sort of notes that with the differences between teenagers, 25 year olds and the elderly.
There's also a wide variety of sleep disorders which are touched on in the article.
I've suffered with 2.5mg before for long enough to understand that it doesn't work for me, no matter how many studies you have with 95% CL that the dose is much lower. The 5mg tablets work much better for me.
If you get results at a lower dose, that's fine, I won't tell you to try using more.
I'm a 49 year old though with moderately severe DSPD and at least used to have non-24 hour disorder and would be happiest letting my schedule shift 1-2 hours every night during college for a few years. If you're a 25 year old and you've never quite had sleep that fucked up which wasn't entirely self-inflicted due to partying then you're not me (most young people who think they have bad sleep disorders are just actively doing things to fuck up their sleep and when they stop doing those things they're magically cured -- and then they turn into the most insufferable assholes because they think they understand sleep disorders when they don't).
And one thing to understand about melatonin is that its not really an anxiolytic and if stress/anxiety is keeping you up it may not work (it will not make the pandemic go away). I also find that I need to take it about an hour before bedtime, and rather than making me tired, it more allows me to get tired. I still need a nighttime ritual to unwind.