If Looks Could Kill(vintagecomputerstories.blogspot.com)
vintagecomputerstories.blogspot.com
If Looks Could Kill
https://vintagecomputerstories.blogspot.com/2022/01/if-looks-could-kill.html
262 comments
I remember walking around a trade show in the early 80's and doing something similar. It was a "HP Microwave Symposium" and aside from lots of good talks and papers, the exhibit hall had lots of high dollar HP (later Agilent/Keysight) RF test equipment. One of the items on display was a HP8566 spectrum analyzer which had a (primitive by today's standards, but) "smart" display capable of drawing vector graphics, time-linear graphs, and text. After using one on my own for a while, I had become curious about the display so I had learned everything that I could about it. So down on the exhibit hall floor, I walked up to the instrument while the sales guy was proclaiming how great it was (which was true) and I entered eight lines of code (about 30 keystrokes). Then I pressed the button to view trace C (which most people still don't know about) and up popped a rolling blinking text display of my name. Most of the people nearby were impressed, but since the instrument was no longer displaying the RF spectrum that the sales guy was talking about, he said; "I know how to fix that." Then he walked over and pressed the green "Instrument Preset" button, which the HP documentation said would always restore the instrument to a known starting point. When the display did not change, the sales guy yelled at me; "WHAT DID YOU DO?!?!?" (My program was in Trace C of display memory, which is not initialized by the Instrument Preset function.) So after watching him panic for a moment, I walked over and swapped traces B&C (shift-key followed by the swap A&B button). Now my program was in trace B (and blanked) so the screen returned to normal. Everyone was relieved! So just before walking away, I swapped my program back into trace C, viewed trace C, and hit the green preset button again. As I walked to the next exhibit, I saw him cycle the AC power to the instrument in frustration.
That was extremely inappropriate behaviour from you if this story is true. I feel bad for everyone else involved.
Please don't cross into personal attack. We particularly don't want the online callout/shaming culture here.
https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&type=comment&dateRange=a...
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&type=comment&dateRange=a...
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
I was in my 20's and still had a juvenile/hacker streak. No harm was done.
Back at that time, I had dreams of actually owning a 8566, but at the time they cost $60k and it seemed impossible.
I picked one up about five years ago for $2k. It STILL has the best performing AFE of anything ever made. All the modern equipment uses signal processing, but that's cheating.
Back at that time, I had dreams of actually owning a 8566, but at the time they cost $60k and it seemed impossible.
I picked one up about five years ago for $2k. It STILL has the best performing AFE of anything ever made. All the modern equipment uses signal processing, but that's cheating.
> I was in my 20's and still had a juvenile/hacker streak. No harm was done.
Lots of us did dumb/jerk things when we were younger; that makes it understandable, not okay. And would the salesperson with the now (for all practical purposes) broken demo unit agree that there was no harm?
Lots of us did dumb/jerk things when we were younger; that makes it understandable, not okay. And would the salesperson with the now (for all practical purposes) broken demo unit agree that there was no harm?
It is a sales persons' duty to know more about the device they are trying to sell than random passers by. If using the front part of a console you really could brick the device in a couple of seconds using nothing but allowed operations that would qualify as a defect.
As far as I'm concerned this was (1) a harmless prank and (2) a significant impulse to the sales person to up their knowledge of the device.
As far as I'm concerned this was (1) a harmless prank and (2) a significant impulse to the sales person to up their knowledge of the device.
Imagine you were selling chef's knives.
Obviously, your salespeople should be good at handling your knives.
But a knife salesman will never be as good as a chef, because chefs have hours a day, every day working with the tools of their trade.
And if you're at a trade show selling chef's knives, and there are no chefs in attendance, you're probably at the wrong trade show.
I would say it's entirely normal for a certain fraction of trade show attendees to know the products on display better than the salespeople demonstrating them.
Obviously, your salespeople should be good at handling your knives.
But a knife salesman will never be as good as a chef, because chefs have hours a day, every day working with the tools of their trade.
And if you're at a trade show selling chef's knives, and there are no chefs in attendance, you're probably at the wrong trade show.
I would say it's entirely normal for a certain fraction of trade show attendees to know the products on display better than the salespeople demonstrating them.
Then you capitalize on that.
I've worked booths. If something like this would happen to me I would definitely want to know more about that person, if only because he might be a potential recruit or a representative of an existing customer.
I've worked booths. If something like this would happen to me I would definitely want to know more about that person, if only because he might be a potential recruit or a representative of an existing customer.
The fact that your personal experience, confidence or skill would mean _you_ wouldn't have had any problems in a similar situation is irrelevant in judging the situation as it didn't happen to you.
There was a point in time where tradeshows moved from having technically competent people in the booths to having pretty girls (with zero tech chops) and suits. This is roughly where the OPs story falls in time, and I wonder if that has something to do with it.
Personally, as long as a powercycle took care of the issue I really don't see the problem, if you do then that's fine by me. Breaking things is bad, afaics nothing got broken here.
Personally, as long as a powercycle took care of the issue I really don't see the problem, if you do then that's fine by me. Breaking things is bad, afaics nothing got broken here.
The assumption that the salesperson did not have 'technical competence' because they didn't know some arcane bit about the system is wrong.
The actions of OP were a 'Red Flag' not a 'Recruiting Signal'.
The actions of OP were a 'Red Flag' not a 'Recruiting Signal'.
I'll grant you that possibly there were zero consequences here, just a little extra sweat on the sales person's back, and OP or my interpretation have hyperboled the effects a little.
If you dump clueless suits with expensive gear and hackers in the same environment the outcome is somewhat predictable.
So either you accept the risks, staff your booths with competent people or you stay away from tradeshows. What point is there to have a salesperson there who does not understand what they are selling? At a minimum you'd have to study up on the device to be able to demonstrate its capabilities. If you can't do that then you have no place in that booth.
The fact that apparently even Bill Gates would mess with the systems at tradeshows (in much the same way, in fact) speaks volumes. This kind of behavior would have been very much expected in the tradeshow environment of the 80's.
In fact, if you went home afterwards and your gear still worked and wasn't stolen (either by the visitors or the nightwatch) that counted as a win.
So either you accept the risks, staff your booths with competent people or you stay away from tradeshows. What point is there to have a salesperson there who does not understand what they are selling? At a minimum you'd have to study up on the device to be able to demonstrate its capabilities. If you can't do that then you have no place in that booth.
The fact that apparently even Bill Gates would mess with the systems at tradeshows (in much the same way, in fact) speaks volumes. This kind of behavior would have been very much expected in the tradeshow environment of the 80's.
In fact, if you went home afterwards and your gear still worked and wasn't stolen (either by the visitors or the nightwatch) that counted as a win.
"If you dump clueless suits with expensive gear and hackers in the same environment the outcome is somewhat predictable"
This is essentially bigotry, endemic among arrogant groups of people with limited social skills, narrow understanding (and therefore respect for) subjects beyond their purview, but who might have developed some strength of understanding in their niche.
"What point is there to have a salesperson there who does not understand what they are selling?"
It's ridiculous to assume that a salesperson might have to have the same level of knowledge that an Engineer may have, and betrays a total lack of understanding of how organizations work, levels of expertise required.
Imagine if Engineers were required to have the knowledge and skills to have to actually 'sell' the devices they make, after all, why shouldn't they be expected to know how to 'have a conversation' and 'collect money'? My god.
This is essentially bigotry, endemic among arrogant groups of people with limited social skills, narrow understanding (and therefore respect for) subjects beyond their purview, but who might have developed some strength of understanding in their niche.
"What point is there to have a salesperson there who does not understand what they are selling?"
It's ridiculous to assume that a salesperson might have to have the same level of knowledge that an Engineer may have, and betrays a total lack of understanding of how organizations work, levels of expertise required.
Imagine if Engineers were required to have the knowledge and skills to have to actually 'sell' the devices they make, after all, why shouldn't they be expected to know how to 'have a conversation' and 'collect money'? My god.
what says the sales person wasn't competenz? They are targeting EEs and are trying to show how to make productive use of the device when dealing with electronics. Sure, you can do more with the device and use it like a free programmable comouter, however that is not the purpose. The sales petson could have been strong in using it to analyse a broken curcuit.
Going deep on an aspect of the datasheet abd abusing it doesn't mean one understands a thing on the device (in its proper use)
Going deep on an aspect of the datasheet abd abusing it doesn't mean one understands a thing on the device (in its proper use)
Ok, let's say hypothetically it's not the salesperson's job to know everything about the device they're selling. I disagree, but let's assume this, anyway.
Why did the company not send an actual engineer to the trade show as well? I've done plenty of trade shows as a customer and there's almost always an engineer on-hand to assist with more technical questions and issues with the demo device.
Even assuming the prior claim, the company still screwed up not buying another plane ticket for an engineer.
Why did the company not send an actual engineer to the trade show as well? I've done plenty of trade shows as a customer and there's almost always an engineer on-hand to assist with more technical questions and issues with the demo device.
Even assuming the prior claim, the company still screwed up not buying another plane ticket for an engineer.
Does the fact that the company screwed up make the sales person feel better in that moment?
I have to disagree. Society works in layers and mutual trust, and its not the sales person job to know the ins and outs of the device. Their job is to communicate what the machine does and how to do it.
Also, you could brick the device in a couple seconds with a hammer too. Should the sales guy have take down training too?
If thats an unrealistic argument, you failed to realize you were the only one in the room who couldnt see the hammer in your hands.
Also, you could brick the device in a couple seconds with a hammer too. Should the sales guy have take down training too?
If thats an unrealistic argument, you failed to realize you were the only one in the room who couldnt see the hammer in your hands.
> its not the sales person job to know the ins and outs of the device
We have a different idea of what sales people should be able to do.
> Their job is to communicate what the machine does and how to do it.
How is this possible without knowing the ins and outs of a device?
> Also, you could brick the device in a couple seconds with a hammer too.
You could, but that's not what this discussion is about so I have no idea why you would bring it up. The device wasn't bricked.
> Should the sales guy have take down training too?
That's a straman of your own making, I will leave the demolition to you.
> If thats an unrealistic argument, you fail to realize youre the only one in the room who couldnt see the hammer in your hands.
You've lost me.
We have a different idea of what sales people should be able to do.
> Their job is to communicate what the machine does and how to do it.
How is this possible without knowing the ins and outs of a device?
> Also, you could brick the device in a couple seconds with a hammer too.
You could, but that's not what this discussion is about so I have no idea why you would bring it up. The device wasn't bricked.
> Should the sales guy have take down training too?
That's a straman of your own making, I will leave the demolition to you.
> If thats an unrealistic argument, you fail to realize youre the only one in the room who couldnt see the hammer in your hands.
You've lost me.
Jacques there's always been the stiff never-have-fun type floating around. They used to tell me I had to wear a suit and tie to be taken seriously in the nineties. I just roll my eyes and don't worry about it.
Funny, they used to tell me the same. Anecdote: one boss gave me some money so I could go out and 'buy some proper clothes'. I spent one part of it on a piece of software that I was saving up for, the rest on a white rental tuxedo. I wore the tux to work the next day and did absolutely nothing all day long (just like most of the rest of that particular IT department). At the end of the day I asked my boss if he wanted me to wear a suit again the next day. He was fine with jeans and t-shirts from then on. (I was with distance the most productive team member.) I have never worn a suit on any other occasion in my life and I still don't understand why people wear something that is extremely uncomfortable and takes way too long to put on (or take off) as well as specialized cleaning services.
LOL! That's awesome!
BTW, you are pouring out level-headed good sense all over this sub-thread and I'm loving it. Thank you. How are you so patient? :)
BTW, you are pouring out level-headed good sense all over this sub-thread and I'm loving it. Thank you. How are you so patient? :)
It's an old trick. I first write the comment I would like to write. Then I delete that, and write another comment.
I used to do that with emails to vendors or the occasional end-user. Also learned a key tip that you either remove the "to" line or write those emails in a text editor first. They you can't accidentally send the nasty first email!
A decent suit is supposed to be comfortable, for me more than jeans (if it's not too hot) and if you are tall and fit you look great in them.
Man, the people in this thread have some tree-sized sticks in places where the sun don't shine.
Also seems like many of these people haven't been to an engineering conference with demo gear out. And seem to be overlooking that this was 30-40 years ago, talking about equipment that'd cost $150k in today's money. That was an engineer or two worth of annual salary for the time period.
I'd damn well expect a sales person selling me a piece of gear like that at a field-specific conference to know how to use it and be able to reset the thing to factory spec in a pinch. Which seems to be exactly what the sales person ended up doing.
Also seems like many of these people haven't been to an engineering conference with demo gear out. And seem to be overlooking that this was 30-40 years ago, talking about equipment that'd cost $150k in today's money. That was an engineer or two worth of annual salary for the time period.
I'd damn well expect a sales person selling me a piece of gear like that at a field-specific conference to know how to use it and be able to reset the thing to factory spec in a pinch. Which seems to be exactly what the sales person ended up doing.
Definitely not.
Sales people don't have a requirement to know systems to that depth.
The initial interaction was 'harmless fun' but re-instituting it and walking away was materially bad.
Sales people don't have a requirement to know systems to that depth.
The initial interaction was 'harmless fun' but re-instituting it and walking away was materially bad.
How is it a harmless prank if at the end the ‘prankster’ walks away smugly and the salesperson is left with a broken demo?
It’s only harmless if the prankster turns around and fixes the demo.
I remember some years ago there were people going around trade shows with universal remote controls turning off the screens. As far as I remember most posters thought that wasn’t a very nice thing to do. And that really is almost completely harmless.
It’s only harmless if the prankster turns around and fixes the demo.
I remember some years ago there were people going around trade shows with universal remote controls turning off the screens. As far as I remember most posters thought that wasn’t a very nice thing to do. And that really is almost completely harmless.
Because nothing got broken.
Turning off screens with universal remote controls... hm... imagine what you could do with one of those 3 Watt IR guns they use in laser arenas and a highrise building. During the worldcup soccer... Never mind.
Turning off screens with universal remote controls... hm... imagine what you could do with one of those 3 Watt IR guns they use in laser arenas and a highrise building. During the worldcup soccer... Never mind.
I agree with (1), but not (2). How many sales types are going to learn to operate a debugger?
Also, there's random passers by as in "one table over at Starbucks" and random passers by as in "took the trouble to come to a tech conference". It is true that the latter are more likely to take these things lightly.
Also, there's random passers by as in "one table over at Starbucks" and random passers by as in "took the trouble to come to a tech conference". It is true that the latter are more likely to take these things lightly.
That's why you have at least one techie in your booth crew. Which has been my role on more than one occasion.
FWIW I worked the booth on a CAD/CAM show in Utrecht one memorable week in the 80's and the number of master mechanics that tried to get the toolbit to run into the chuck was rather larger than expected. Good that I took care of that in the software. But this mentality, of putting stuff through its paces and to show off what you can do with it is exactly why you have trade shows in the first place, to interact with people and to let people interact with your gear to see what they are up to and to strike up conversations. Not all of these pay off.
But sometimes the kid in the greasy jeans and the t-shirt is the guy that will land you the big contract, as opposed to the guy in the suit who passes by your booth just for the swag.
FWIW I worked the booth on a CAD/CAM show in Utrecht one memorable week in the 80's and the number of master mechanics that tried to get the toolbit to run into the chuck was rather larger than expected. Good that I took care of that in the software. But this mentality, of putting stuff through its paces and to show off what you can do with it is exactly why you have trade shows in the first place, to interact with people and to let people interact with your gear to see what they are up to and to strike up conversations. Not all of these pay off.
But sometimes the kid in the greasy jeans and the t-shirt is the guy that will land you the big contract, as opposed to the guy in the suit who passes by your booth just for the swag.
I'd like to point out that just because it is expected that folks are going to try to come and try out a product (and potentially damage it) does not justify it.
OP entering a funky command is not unexpected. But then purposely antagonizing the sales rep was a d*ck move in my book. If OP had just shown the guy "Hey here's what I did and what it does" that would be perfectly fine (important distinction, OP knew more than the sales guy compared to your case). But if the sales person was legitimately panicking that's not very polite, to put it mildly.
OP entering a funky command is not unexpected. But then purposely antagonizing the sales rep was a d*ck move in my book. If OP had just shown the guy "Hey here's what I did and what it does" that would be perfectly fine (important distinction, OP knew more than the sales guy compared to your case). But if the sales person was legitimately panicking that's not very polite, to put it mildly.
It is not just that the OP did a cool trick, that is not what people find objectionable. You seem to be missing the part where the OP already knew the sales guy was not able to undo their change, that the change would prevent the demoing of the device, but still just re-enabled it and walked away laughing. That is fucking sociopathic behavior, not a cool hack.
I was at a boat show once and there was a salesman selling fountain pens that would not leak. At my all-boys school we had to write everything with fountain pens and boys being boys we would regularly spray each other with ink using a very hard flick of the pen. Standing in front of the salesman's table I picked up a demo pen to see, and gave it my hardest flick. Ink sprayed out all over the table, and all down the front of the man's white shirt.
I ran.
I ran.
Opportunity missed. Deadpan: "Sir, this one does leak, do you have a better one?"
I'm not sure whether I would consider spraying the same thing as leaking. (Yes, I went to an all boys high school, and yes I'm familiar with the trick.)
I hope that in the salesman's place I'd have had the calm to say, "What that really necessary?" and let it go at that. On the one hand, the splatter pattern does not suggest a leak, and he could explain what happened and get points for being cool about it. On the other hand, if there is one high school boy (by calendar or by mental age) who doesn't know the trick, then somebody else could get splattered.
I hope that in the salesman's place I'd have had the calm to say, "What that really necessary?" and let it go at that. On the one hand, the splatter pattern does not suggest a leak, and he could explain what happened and get points for being cool about it. On the other hand, if there is one high school boy (by calendar or by mental age) who doesn't know the trick, then somebody else could get splattered.
Sounds like a power cycle would fix it, so not so bad. Mild annoyance :)
Ah yeah, that would make a difference; my reading was that it would stay that way until someone hit the magic key sequence. If the salesperson could fix it inside 5 minutes I agree (effectively) no harm.
A lot of the things hackers did in the 70s and 80s are now recognized as very oof, as they say, today. As to whether "no harm was done", you disrupted a salesperson's pitch and caused him to think the device was broken. You introduced delays and tarnished the reputation of the product in front of customers, potentially resulting in lost sales and hence, lost revenue.
> No harm was done.
ever considered the stress you induced in the sales guy?
ever considered the stress you induced in the sales guy?
The chilling effect of your comment should not be underestimated. If this was 'extremely inappropriate behavior' I think I'll forego retelling any of my tradeshow pranks.
There are parts in their description that point to unnecessary cruelty/meaniness.
> When the display did not change, the sales guy yelled at me; "WHAT DID YOU DO?!?!?"
At this point OP could have explained what they did, and explain why what the salesperson tried didn't work, and what should be done to fix it. They did not, instead they:
> So after watching him panic for a moment
Watched him panic, then showed that they could fix it (probably ego tripping), and then to rub it in even further, put it back on and walked away. Depending on the experience or seniority of the sales person this might have caused the sales person problems, a lot of stress, ruined a presentation, and real-life consequences, all of which OP disregarded.
There are pranks, and then there are pranks. This was unnecessarily cruel.
> When the display did not change, the sales guy yelled at me; "WHAT DID YOU DO?!?!?"
At this point OP could have explained what they did, and explain why what the salesperson tried didn't work, and what should be done to fix it. They did not, instead they:
> So after watching him panic for a moment
Watched him panic, then showed that they could fix it (probably ego tripping), and then to rub it in even further, put it back on and walked away. Depending on the experience or seniority of the sales person this might have caused the sales person problems, a lot of stress, ruined a presentation, and real-life consequences, all of which OP disregarded.
There are pranks, and then there are pranks. This was unnecessarily cruel.
I've been on the receiving side of such pranks in tradeshows, it's part of the interaction. You put up gear for the general public to mess with, you have to calculate this in.
Firato, the annual CAD/CAM show for the metal working industry, The Hannover Messe (which used to be the largest IT show in Europe) the building equipment trade shows. Put enough gear in front of enough people (especially nerds) and pranks will happen.
As far as I can see this was a harmless prank because a powercycle fixed the issue. If he had reprogrammed it to the point that it was bricked for the duration of the trade show that would be a different matter.
Firato, the annual CAD/CAM show for the metal working industry, The Hannover Messe (which used to be the largest IT show in Europe) the building equipment trade shows. Put enough gear in front of enough people (especially nerds) and pranks will happen.
As far as I can see this was a harmless prank because a powercycle fixed the issue. If he had reprogrammed it to the point that it was bricked for the duration of the trade show that would be a different matter.
I agree that you probably should be prepared to handle such scenarios.
I don't agree that this is a good reason that doing such a prank is harmless. The sales person might not have been prepared. They may have been having a bad day already. They may not be confident that power cycling would have solved the issue and thus may have been extremely stressed out going forward, ruining an (important?) presentation.
Probably I'm reading too much into a casual retelling now, but from what I can read: The fact the sales person was panicking should've been an indicator for OP to help him out. At that point OP should've empathised with the sales person instead of make things worse.
It's not because "Oh you should know how to fix this" may be true, that it's not a dick move to throw a fellow human in distress under the bus.
I don't agree that this is a good reason that doing such a prank is harmless. The sales person might not have been prepared. They may have been having a bad day already. They may not be confident that power cycling would have solved the issue and thus may have been extremely stressed out going forward, ruining an (important?) presentation.
Probably I'm reading too much into a casual retelling now, but from what I can read: The fact the sales person was panicking should've been an indicator for OP to help him out. At that point OP should've empathised with the sales person instead of make things worse.
It's not because "Oh you should know how to fix this" may be true, that it's not a dick move to throw a fellow human in distress under the bus.
> The sales person might not have been prepared.
But: they should have been. If you don't know the gear you are demoing you are a minder, not a sales person.
> They may not be confident that power cycling would have solved the issue and thus may have been extremely stressed out going forward, ruining an (important?) presentation.
Important presentations don't happen at the front of a booth, they happen in the back behind the partition.
> The fact the sales person was panicking should've been an indicator for OP to help him out. At that point OP should've empathised with the sales person instead of make things worse.
Fair enough. But: suits that don't know their stuff have no place on a tradeshow floor.
I recall walking up to a guy at a Tek booth and asking him about their new storage scopes, he proceeded to take the thing apart on the spot and show me what the guts looked like resulting in a very long term relationship. That's the kind of person you want to man a booth displaying spectrum analyzers, not someone who apparently doesn't even know how to program it and what bits get stored in which part of the machine.
> It's not because "Oh you should know how to fix this" may be true, that it's not a dick move to throw a fellow human in distress under the bus.
I think that's exaggerating a bit. Throwing a fellow human being in distress under the bus is a far cry from "I put my name on your device and you will have to powercycle it to get rid of that".
But one conclusion I have from this thread is that Hacker News has lots its way, and that Hackers are not really welcome here anymore. Hackers showing up (empty) suits is about as old as it gets.
Food for thought.
But: they should have been. If you don't know the gear you are demoing you are a minder, not a sales person.
> They may not be confident that power cycling would have solved the issue and thus may have been extremely stressed out going forward, ruining an (important?) presentation.
Important presentations don't happen at the front of a booth, they happen in the back behind the partition.
> The fact the sales person was panicking should've been an indicator for OP to help him out. At that point OP should've empathised with the sales person instead of make things worse.
Fair enough. But: suits that don't know their stuff have no place on a tradeshow floor.
I recall walking up to a guy at a Tek booth and asking him about their new storage scopes, he proceeded to take the thing apart on the spot and show me what the guts looked like resulting in a very long term relationship. That's the kind of person you want to man a booth displaying spectrum analyzers, not someone who apparently doesn't even know how to program it and what bits get stored in which part of the machine.
> It's not because "Oh you should know how to fix this" may be true, that it's not a dick move to throw a fellow human in distress under the bus.
I think that's exaggerating a bit. Throwing a fellow human being in distress under the bus is a far cry from "I put my name on your device and you will have to powercycle it to get rid of that".
But one conclusion I have from this thread is that Hacker News has lots its way, and that Hackers are not really welcome here anymore. Hackers showing up (empty) suits is about as old as it gets.
Food for thought.
You make so many assumptions about the sales person it's as if they're an NPC for you.
I can imagine all kinds of scenarios where what you say is just not true or irrelevant and out of the control of the sales person, yet the harm of the prank still falls upon the sales person.
Maybe the sales person replaced someone who got sick at the last minute. Maybe the sales person's incompetent manager put them there without giving them time to prepare. Maybe the person whose job it was to prepare the sales person was bad at _their_ job, or didn't have sufficient time, etc. Maybe their incompetent manager isn't as forgiving as you are and will fire them because of this incident. Maybe power-cycling the device caused the presenters settings they needed for the presentation to be wiped as well. Maybe this is a junior sales person who hoped for a promotion after this presentation.
> But one conclusion I have from this thread is that Hacker News has lost its way
My conclusion is that a lot of people lack empathy or the imagination to think beyond their own experience. But I guess that's not really surprising in this sector which apparently still lacks a lot of self-reflection around the common social problems associated with it. I'm just happy there's enough people here that do have empathy.
I can imagine all kinds of scenarios where what you say is just not true or irrelevant and out of the control of the sales person, yet the harm of the prank still falls upon the sales person.
Maybe the sales person replaced someone who got sick at the last minute. Maybe the sales person's incompetent manager put them there without giving them time to prepare. Maybe the person whose job it was to prepare the sales person was bad at _their_ job, or didn't have sufficient time, etc. Maybe their incompetent manager isn't as forgiving as you are and will fire them because of this incident. Maybe power-cycling the device caused the presenters settings they needed for the presentation to be wiped as well. Maybe this is a junior sales person who hoped for a promotion after this presentation.
> But one conclusion I have from this thread is that Hacker News has lost its way
My conclusion is that a lot of people lack empathy or the imagination to think beyond their own experience. But I guess that's not really surprising in this sector which apparently still lacks a lot of self-reflection around the common social problems associated with it. I'm just happy there's enough people here that do have empathy.
> You make so many assumptions about the sales person it's as if they're an NPC for you.
I just use the bits from the OPs story as a way to place the person on my scale of technical competence.
> Maybe the sales person replaced someone who got sick at the last minute. Maybe the sales person's incompetent manager put them there without giving them time to prepare. Maybe the person whose job it was to prepare the sales person was bad at _their_ job, or didn't have sufficient time, etc. Maybe their incompetent manager isn't as forgiving as you are and will fire them because of this incident. Maybe power-cycling the device caused the presenters settings they needed for the presentation to be wiped as well. Maybe this is a junior sales person who hoped for a promotion after this presentation.
I think these are assumptions. Maybe they did. Or maybe they just powercycled the device and it all came back.
Tradeshows are 'hostile territory', you know this going in. If you've never staffed a booth at a tradeshow then I will forgive you but really, if this is the worst that happened there then they got extremely lucky.
I've had people 'test' our systems to see if they could break them. And the fact that they could not was proof that we had done a proper job designing them, which in turn led to interesting conversations and some sales. This is what a tradeshow is for. It's not for people to stand around static displays or recipe style demos without the ability to improvise.
Tradeshows are 'hands on' which is why the gear is exposed in the first place. And some of those hands will be more capable than yours, which is the moment where you make your living as a salesperson.
> My conclusion is that a lot of people lack empathy or the imagination to think beyond their own experience.
No, it's just that the experience factor is a two way street. If you don't have relevant experience then maybe you should not be so quick to judge.
I've seen the OP derided now as a sociopath, as a bad human being overall and whatever else people are slinging at him. You can take it from me as someone who has staffed the booths at tradeshows that on a scale of 1 to 10 this was a 'meh'.
> But I guess that's not really surprising in this sector which apparently still lacks a lot of self-reflection around the common social problems associated with it.
Ah ok, that is what this is about. Well, guess what, it is possible to have a conversation about a tradeshow prank without drawing in the problems of the entire industry.
> I'm just happy there's enough people here that do have empathy.
OP pulled a prank 20 years ago, which temporarily destabilized a piece of gear.
We're now discussing their promotion chances, their ostensibly important presentation on a piece of gear that they have no problem allowing other people to mess with, their chances of getting fired by their incompetent (why would their manager be incompetent) manager, their lack of time to prepare and so on.
It's an over-reaction.
I just use the bits from the OPs story as a way to place the person on my scale of technical competence.
> Maybe the sales person replaced someone who got sick at the last minute. Maybe the sales person's incompetent manager put them there without giving them time to prepare. Maybe the person whose job it was to prepare the sales person was bad at _their_ job, or didn't have sufficient time, etc. Maybe their incompetent manager isn't as forgiving as you are and will fire them because of this incident. Maybe power-cycling the device caused the presenters settings they needed for the presentation to be wiped as well. Maybe this is a junior sales person who hoped for a promotion after this presentation.
I think these are assumptions. Maybe they did. Or maybe they just powercycled the device and it all came back.
Tradeshows are 'hostile territory', you know this going in. If you've never staffed a booth at a tradeshow then I will forgive you but really, if this is the worst that happened there then they got extremely lucky.
I've had people 'test' our systems to see if they could break them. And the fact that they could not was proof that we had done a proper job designing them, which in turn led to interesting conversations and some sales. This is what a tradeshow is for. It's not for people to stand around static displays or recipe style demos without the ability to improvise.
Tradeshows are 'hands on' which is why the gear is exposed in the first place. And some of those hands will be more capable than yours, which is the moment where you make your living as a salesperson.
> My conclusion is that a lot of people lack empathy or the imagination to think beyond their own experience.
No, it's just that the experience factor is a two way street. If you don't have relevant experience then maybe you should not be so quick to judge.
I've seen the OP derided now as a sociopath, as a bad human being overall and whatever else people are slinging at him. You can take it from me as someone who has staffed the booths at tradeshows that on a scale of 1 to 10 this was a 'meh'.
> But I guess that's not really surprising in this sector which apparently still lacks a lot of self-reflection around the common social problems associated with it.
Ah ok, that is what this is about. Well, guess what, it is possible to have a conversation about a tradeshow prank without drawing in the problems of the entire industry.
> I'm just happy there's enough people here that do have empathy.
OP pulled a prank 20 years ago, which temporarily destabilized a piece of gear.
We're now discussing their promotion chances, their ostensibly important presentation on a piece of gear that they have no problem allowing other people to mess with, their chances of getting fired by their incompetent (why would their manager be incompetent) manager, their lack of time to prepare and so on.
It's an over-reaction.
> I think these are assumptions. Maybe they did. Or maybe they just powercycled the device and it all came back.
They're possible reasons that could explain the part in the Op's story which you might have missed where the sales person was panicking and yelling in distress. Your argument basically goes "well, they should have been competent enough to be able to deal with it" basically saying it's their own fault and they deserved it.
My point is that this is not a good argument to disregard the feelings of the sales person. One reason is because it's not clear that the incompetence of the sales person is his own fault, and what I'm listing are possible reasons why that might be the case.
But even if it were within the control of the sales person, I'm also of the opinion that his mistake of not being competent enough shouldn't mean his feelings on the situation aren't valid, and that it wasn't somehow a dick move.
All we know is that the sales person was stressed about what the OP did, and that OP did nothing to help him out, and whatever the reason for this stress may be, or whatever consequences that might or might not have happened, by not helping him out, OP was being a jerk.
> OP pulled a prank 20 years ago, which temporarily destabilized a piece of gear. We're now discussing ...
This I agree with, I think we're trying to extract too much context from a very casual retelling, and going in circles anyway.
They're possible reasons that could explain the part in the Op's story which you might have missed where the sales person was panicking and yelling in distress. Your argument basically goes "well, they should have been competent enough to be able to deal with it" basically saying it's their own fault and they deserved it.
My point is that this is not a good argument to disregard the feelings of the sales person. One reason is because it's not clear that the incompetence of the sales person is his own fault, and what I'm listing are possible reasons why that might be the case.
But even if it were within the control of the sales person, I'm also of the opinion that his mistake of not being competent enough shouldn't mean his feelings on the situation aren't valid, and that it wasn't somehow a dick move.
All we know is that the sales person was stressed about what the OP did, and that OP did nothing to help him out, and whatever the reason for this stress may be, or whatever consequences that might or might not have happened, by not helping him out, OP was being a jerk.
> OP pulled a prank 20 years ago, which temporarily destabilized a piece of gear. We're now discussing ...
This I agree with, I think we're trying to extract too much context from a very casual retelling, and going in circles anyway.
>But one conclusion I have from this thread is that Hacker News has lots its way, and that Hackers are not really welcome here anymore
I think you are conflating hackers with lack of empathy/being a dick.
I mean, "is a hacker" DOES seem like a good predictor for "is a dick" (in my experience at least), so you might be right that HN isn't all that fond of hackers nowadays.
I think you are conflating hackers with lack of empathy/being a dick.
I mean, "is a hacker" DOES seem like a good predictor for "is a dick" (in my experience at least), so you might be right that HN isn't all that fond of hackers nowadays.
> I mean, "is a hacker" DOES seem like a good predictor for "is a dick" (in my experience at least)
I'm sad that this is the case for you. But to counter your anecdata, the hackers that I know are as a rule quite nice and well behaved.
I'm sad that this is the case for you. But to counter your anecdata, the hackers that I know are as a rule quite nice and well behaved.
Agreed, you should totally tell jacquesm that. He seems to think that it's par for the course for hackers to bully total strangers on the pretext of "showing up a suit". He even seems to think that HN has lost its way and is no longer inhabited by hackers, when it's pointed out what bad manners and lack of empathy such a prank would be.
Ok, you win.
The pervasive theme of this thread was that "hacking was more more fun in the 80s/90s when we were allowed to be bullies"
This whole thread is a really good example of why not to judge the past by the standards of the present. There were ways of interacting that were just expected. At my first job, if you went on vacation, you expected to return to a pranked office. No way you could get away with barricading someone's office/desk with a mountain of soda cans at most places now.
I've never understood "don't judge the past by today's standards."
If today's standards indicate that someone's past behavior was dick-ish, then the fact that the standards have shifted does NOT imply that the past behavior was somehow "just fine" because... We didn't expect better of each other?
By that logic, abusive racist parentage back in the 50's is unassailable acceptable, because as you say - we're judging it by today's standards.
Acceptability in the past is no indication of an actions morality or ethical... ness.
... Words are hard.
If today's standards indicate that someone's past behavior was dick-ish, then the fact that the standards have shifted does NOT imply that the past behavior was somehow "just fine" because... We didn't expect better of each other?
By that logic, abusive racist parentage back in the 50's is unassailable acceptable, because as you say - we're judging it by today's standards.
Acceptability in the past is no indication of an actions morality or ethical... ness.
... Words are hard.
Unacceptability in the present isn't a reliable indicator either. For example, it is today socially unacceptable for me to be friends with most of my extended family because they are republicans. But that doesn't mean it's right.
Besides, what's with this tendency to escalate way beyond the topic at hand? We're talking about professional pranks and suddenly...racism?
Besides, what's with this tendency to escalate way beyond the topic at hand? We're talking about professional pranks and suddenly...racism?
There are likely many totally innocuous things you say/write today that will be taboo in 30 years. Someone will merely have to go back trawling through an Internet archive to dig up all sorts of stuff that shows that you (by 2053's standards) are a horrible, bigoted, evil person.
But that's just not true - according to the OP's own retelling the sales person was in obvious distress due to his actions.
So no, this apparently was not "expected" because otherwise they would also just have had a chuckle and wouldn't have reacted like that. And regardless of whether that means the sales person was in the wrong job or not, the fact that that person was in trouble, and OP did nothing to help, means that OP was being a jerk.
So no, this apparently was not "expected" because otherwise they would also just have had a chuckle and wouldn't have reacted like that. And regardless of whether that means the sales person was in the wrong job or not, the fact that that person was in trouble, and OP did nothing to help, means that OP was being a jerk.
People used to be better at dealing with "obvious distress." Seriously why is this argument worth 80+ comments? I agree with jacquesm -- HN (in this thread) has lost its way.
Because the what amounts to victim blaming in this thread has lots of similarities to other problems in the tech industry.
Maybe HN is finally maturing.
Maybe HN is finally maturing.
Because of the people continuing to defend this kind of behavior, and blaming the poor sales guy for not being "technical" enough.
Glad to hear that are people that get the environment and norms at these kind of events.
Presenting a control freak attitude around public interaction hardly seems like it would win over many customers, so this kind of thing is par for the course and reacting well to the unexpected (including pranks) is part of the skillset.
Presenting a control freak attitude around public interaction hardly seems like it would win over many customers, so this kind of thing is par for the course and reacting well to the unexpected (including pranks) is part of the skillset.
>> the sales guy yelled at me; "WHAT DID YOU DO?!?!?"
> At this point OP could have explained what they did [...]
The sales guy could also have been less accusative and instead embrace their curiosity as a customer... It was an opportunity to invite the onlookers who were already interested in what the author had coaxed the display into doing to learn more about the machine.
I can imagine a younger version of myself also reacting a bit negatively to such an exclamation after having a harmless investigation of a machine. Unfortunately it tends to be the reaction of ignorant and uninquisitive people.
> At this point OP could have explained what they did [...]
The sales guy could also have been less accusative and instead embrace their curiosity as a customer... It was an opportunity to invite the onlookers who were already interested in what the author had coaxed the display into doing to learn more about the machine.
I can imagine a younger version of myself also reacting a bit negatively to such an exclamation after having a harmless investigation of a machine. Unfortunately it tends to be the reaction of ignorant and uninquisitive people.
Or it's a natural immediate reaction of a normal person in distress who wasn't prepared for an outsider to come sabotage their presentation and made them look incompetent in front of an audience while they're already stressed out.
Leave it up to engineers to expect everyone (else) to be the paragon of virtue rational homo sapiens sapiens with all the wisdom and maturity.
Leave it up to engineers to expect everyone (else) to be the paragon of virtue rational homo sapiens sapiens with all the wisdom and maturity.
> Leave it up to engineers to expect everyone (else) to be the paragon of virtue rational homo sapiens sapiens with all the wisdom and maturity.
So i guess we are in agreement :D The sales person was neither wise or rational. They were acting on the emotion of a singular thought, selling shit.
So i guess we are in agreement :D The sales person was neither wise or rational. They were acting on the emotion of a singular thought, selling shit.
> I think I'll forego retelling any of my tradeshow pranks.
A good prank is when the two parties can laugh about it together when it’s done.
If someone is just interfering with another person’s job and then smugly walking away, it’s not really a prank. They’re just being a jerk for the purpose of smug personal satisfaction at the expense of someone else.
That’s the difference. This may have been relatively easily fixed with a power cycle, but having done a lot of long days in tradeshow booths I can empathize with the poor guy in the booth who had to deal with someone deliberately interfering with his job and stressing him out. Obviously it turned out okay, but having attendees deliberately break your live trade show demos for laughs sucks.
A good prank is when the two parties can laugh about it together when it’s done.
If someone is just interfering with another person’s job and then smugly walking away, it’s not really a prank. They’re just being a jerk for the purpose of smug personal satisfaction at the expense of someone else.
That’s the difference. This may have been relatively easily fixed with a power cycle, but having done a lot of long days in tradeshow booths I can empathize with the poor guy in the booth who had to deal with someone deliberately interfering with his job and stressing him out. Obviously it turned out okay, but having attendees deliberately break your live trade show demos for laughs sucks.
> A good prank is when the two parties can laugh about it together when it’s done.
Hm, that's now how I have the definition of a prank in my dictionary. To me it is a practical joke which usually has two required components, a prankster and the person the prank is being played on. Audience optional. To assume that they both have the same sense of humor seems to be a recipe for disappointment.
This is everyday life at tradeshows. Seriously. I've had people trying to destroy 100's of thousands of $ for kicks to see if the gear was as solid as we claimed it was. (it was).
As tradeshow pranks come this really does not register.
> at the expense of someone else
That's a prerequisite for a prank, it is quite literally played on someone else by definition, without that it isn't really a prank.
Whether you can see the humor of it or not depends on your personal make-up. People ring the doorbell here occasionally. I have a pretty badly injured right leg. So I go down a couple of flights of stairs to open the door.
Every now and then this includes neighborhood kids who will be in hiding at the end of the driveway. Usually their giggling gives the game away. Needless to say, their sense of humor is different than mine on this subject. That does not mean that I don't think it isn't a successful prank from their perspective, in fact the fact that they know this probably adds to the spice.
But then I think 'they're just kids' and leave it at that.
All the 'holier than thou' and concern trolling in this thread is completely over the top, in real life people pull pranks, some laugh, some don't. But it's not enough to go judge people to the degree that is done here.
Hm, that's now how I have the definition of a prank in my dictionary. To me it is a practical joke which usually has two required components, a prankster and the person the prank is being played on. Audience optional. To assume that they both have the same sense of humor seems to be a recipe for disappointment.
This is everyday life at tradeshows. Seriously. I've had people trying to destroy 100's of thousands of $ for kicks to see if the gear was as solid as we claimed it was. (it was).
As tradeshow pranks come this really does not register.
> at the expense of someone else
That's a prerequisite for a prank, it is quite literally played on someone else by definition, without that it isn't really a prank.
Whether you can see the humor of it or not depends on your personal make-up. People ring the doorbell here occasionally. I have a pretty badly injured right leg. So I go down a couple of flights of stairs to open the door.
Every now and then this includes neighborhood kids who will be in hiding at the end of the driveway. Usually their giggling gives the game away. Needless to say, their sense of humor is different than mine on this subject. That does not mean that I don't think it isn't a successful prank from their perspective, in fact the fact that they know this probably adds to the spice.
But then I think 'they're just kids' and leave it at that.
All the 'holier than thou' and concern trolling in this thread is completely over the top, in real life people pull pranks, some laugh, some don't. But it's not enough to go judge people to the degree that is done here.
I'd like to point out that just because you are tolerant of others pranking you does not mean that someone else (who might potential be fearing for losing his job) may find it funny.
In fact there's a common saying "It's just a prank bro" (1) which is used when people do questionable things as "pranks", almost always causing the other person to get worried. And (un)fun fact, courts have not taken kindly to these "pranks" (2, 3).
Side note, if you are interested you could put up a note with a message saying that you have an injured leg and take longer to come to the door. It might help delivery folks, and may also reduce/stop children from ringing the bell.
1. knowyourmeme.com/memes/its-just-a-prank 2. https://www.legaldefense.com/blog/2021/april/when-is-it-not-... 3. https://www.boydbuckingham.com/2018/04/whats-funnier-than-a-...
In fact there's a common saying "It's just a prank bro" (1) which is used when people do questionable things as "pranks", almost always causing the other person to get worried. And (un)fun fact, courts have not taken kindly to these "pranks" (2, 3).
Side note, if you are interested you could put up a note with a message saying that you have an injured leg and take longer to come to the door. It might help delivery folks, and may also reduce/stop children from ringing the bell.
1. knowyourmeme.com/memes/its-just-a-prank 2. https://www.legaldefense.com/blog/2021/april/when-is-it-not-... 3. https://www.boydbuckingham.com/2018/04/whats-funnier-than-a-...
I think "extreme" might be a bit much, but i'm much more concerned about the 2nd order chilling effect of calling out people for criticizing rude behaviour, then the original chilling effect on rude behaviour.
You're on a website whose co-founder managed to disable an enormous network of computers with a piece of software, for which he served jail time and was fined.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Tappan_Morris
Here we venerate such people.
And as computer related pranks go, this one was pretty mild and required some pretty intimate knowledge of the device. If I had been in that booth I would have engaged the person to see what else they know about it and why.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Tappan_Morris
Here we venerate such people.
And as computer related pranks go, this one was pretty mild and required some pretty intimate knowledge of the device. If I had been in that booth I would have engaged the person to see what else they know about it and why.
And what, is it your position that all the actions of hn founders are instrinsically above reproach?
At the very least i would hope we have better morality arguments than simple appeals to authority.
To be clear, i object to the notion that its wrong to criticize/debate the behaviour and ethics of others. I'm not really objecting to the original post about the trade show prank.
At the very least i would hope we have better morality arguments than simple appeals to authority.
To be clear, i object to the notion that its wrong to criticize/debate the behaviour and ethics of others. I'm not really objecting to the original post about the trade show prank.
> And what, is it your position that all the actions of hn founders are instrinsically above reproach?
That's got to be the mother of all strawmen. No, obviously, I do not.
But in this particular case it is about something that is very much the sort of thing that your average hacker would do given the opportunity. Hacker used in the 'old school' sense of: technically inclined person who likes to tinker with stuff and use it in ways unforeseen by the original creators.
It's what we live for.
> To be clear, i object to the notion that its wrong to criticize/debate the behaviour and ethics of others.
I'm fine with debate. I'm not ok with off the cuff judgments. Essentially the OP simply knew more about the device than the trade show staff (which, unfortunately isn't all that rare), they used the exposed user interface to do the sort of thing that it was supposed to be able to do because that capability was purposefully built in to it.
That they put it to a novel use is what makes it interesting.
That's got to be the mother of all strawmen. No, obviously, I do not.
But in this particular case it is about something that is very much the sort of thing that your average hacker would do given the opportunity. Hacker used in the 'old school' sense of: technically inclined person who likes to tinker with stuff and use it in ways unforeseen by the original creators.
It's what we live for.
> To be clear, i object to the notion that its wrong to criticize/debate the behaviour and ethics of others.
I'm fine with debate. I'm not ok with off the cuff judgments. Essentially the OP simply knew more about the device than the trade show staff (which, unfortunately isn't all that rare), they used the exposed user interface to do the sort of thing that it was supposed to be able to do because that capability was purposefully built in to it.
That they put it to a novel use is what makes it interesting.
> But in this particular case it is about something that is very much the sort of thing that your average hacker would do given the opportunity. Hacker used in the 'old school' sense of: technically inclined person who likes to tinker with stuff and use it in ways unforeseen by the original creators.
Sure. i don't disagree. I think that's rather orthogonal though.
I'm objecting to the notion that we should avoid lines of debate, not because they are wrong, but because they are "chilling". Uncomfortable truths usually are (without neccesarily claiming that this is one).
Sure. i don't disagree. I think that's rather orthogonal though.
I'm objecting to the notion that we should avoid lines of debate, not because they are wrong, but because they are "chilling". Uncomfortable truths usually are (without neccesarily claiming that this is one).
You really seem to not understand hacker culture, which I guess isn't your fault, maybe it's before your time or something. But there's something special and important about it. That special and important thing is why this place is called "hacker news."
I don't think I can do it justice in this comment, but I do encourage you to try to read about it and understand what this sort of mischief meant to people. You obviously understand something about its downsides, especially from the perspective of the broader culture / "the suits," but I do encourage you to try to understand something about its many virtues.
I don't think I can do it justice in this comment, but I do encourage you to try to read about it and understand what this sort of mischief meant to people. You obviously understand something about its downsides, especially from the perspective of the broader culture / "the suits," but I do encourage you to try to understand something about its many virtues.
Buddha Nature has evil as part of its nature. So is hacker. It depends upon the use and the control.
Whilst appreciate the hacking, and the salesman could ask. Still I am not sure the original hp hacking is great.
But the removal of wait 6502 is appreciated. The creator or the author is not the only authority in the creator world.
It depends.
Whilst appreciate the hacking, and the salesman could ask. Still I am not sure the original hp hacking is great.
But the removal of wait 6502 is appreciated. The creator or the author is not the only authority in the creator world.
It depends.
And now I feel like an idiot, for not knowing that the co-founder was the reason we couldn't turn in our CS60C assignments by the deadline that one time.
Was a great week. I still have a copy of the email that Cliff Stoll sent around, a couple of days later. When the email servers had stopped twitching...
Was a great week. I still have a copy of the email that Cliff Stoll sent around, a couple of days later. When the email servers had stopped twitching...
I had no idea either. It’s amazing how little I know about ycombinator after spending hundreds of hours on this site. I know they are somehow involved in venture capital and they employ dang.
I was on HN for seven years when I learned...
Thanks for the details / link
Just a minor point: Did he actually serve jail time? The Wikipedia article you link to says he got probation
Just a minor point: Did he actually serve jail time? The Wikipedia article you link to says he got probation
"He was the first person to be indicted under this act. In December 1990, he was sentenced to three years of probation, 400 hours of community service, and a fine of $10,050 plus the costs of his supervision. "
It looks like you are correct, gaffe on my part, thanks for the correction.
It looks like you are correct, gaffe on my part, thanks for the correction.
Depends on the situation. 40 years ago, software engineers were an extremely rare breed, and concerns about hacking and security were negligible compared to today.
If I was a manager with purchasing power I would have viewed it as proof that the machine was programmable and wasn’t just a “toaster” that had been built to do one thing and only one thing. It’s not like he made the machine generate garbage noise, displaying set text on the fly wasn’t a commodity back then as far as I know
If I was a manager with purchasing power I would have viewed it as proof that the machine was programmable and wasn’t just a “toaster” that had been built to do one thing and only one thing. It’s not like he made the machine generate garbage noise, displaying set text on the fly wasn’t a commodity back then as far as I know
Hard to think of this as almost 40 years ago, but it was... my dad drove me up to MacWorld Expo in San Francisco in 93. We got badges and walked the whole floor a few times, looking at stuff. I was
13. Dad was a lawyer who had no interest in computers or my nerdy addictions and I think it was the only time in my life he and I ever took a trip alone, without the family. But he realized I was really, really obsessed with Macs, and what I didn't know was that he was about to divorce my mom and leave us. He so didn't realize I was using the house phone to run a pirate bbs for the last couple years. But he knew how to get around at trade shows. I remember just losing my mind at a few booths... VistaPro and Infini-D and the guy doing the Claymation demo, sculpting and rigging simple characters in almost realtime.... Dad got me my first Wacom tablet at that show. We stayed the night at the SF Hilton. Drove home to LA feeling like it was the best weekend of my life.
(edit) I just realized I'm drunk and this has nothing whatsoever to do with your post. Just a memory that seemed vaguely relevant. Disregard.
(edit) I just realized I'm drunk and this has nothing whatsoever to do with your post. Just a memory that seemed vaguely relevant. Disregard.
I very much enjoyed this comment - it sounds like it was a great experience. It’s a nerdier kind of beatnik prose.
I thought it was a lovely reply, thanks for sharing!
> Hard to think of this as almost 40 years ago
That's because it was almost 30 years ago, not 40 ;)
That's because it was almost 30 years ago, not 40 ;)
heh. yup. I realized that after I wrote it, but I thought I should just let the original mistake stand. I've been feeling older than usual lately.
It’s for the tangentially-related discussions and stories like this that I read Hacker News – sometimes skipping the original article.
Doesn't matter, I read and enjoyed it anyway :)
Yeah, if you were there, but if you walked last the rest of the day and wanted to see the instrument working, only to be met with a "some guy broke it", you wouldn't be as happy.
I think my, admittedly unstated, point is that most managers were incapable of doing an honest evaluation of computer equipment at the time. Someone coming up to a machine and fucking with it in a way that could produce useful work results, like making a random graphing machine display programmable names, would be a strong indicator that the machine could actually do something instead of being a complete gamble
I don't disagree, but if you weren't there when he programmed it, it would just be "the machine is broken" to you.
Imagine someone messing with your car. Might be an easy fix if you are a mechanic. Most people are not.
I don’t know the machine, but it sounds to me like what he did was just part of the normal operation. So the car analogy would be more like changing someone’s radio presets to some embarrassing station as a prank. Annoying, but you don’t need a mechanic to fix that.
But he didn't break it.
He made it not show the thing the salesperson needed it to show, which prevented the salesperson from doing his job.
Please. A powercycle fixed it and besides, if you don't want people to play with the gear then don't put it in the general public aisle. That's where people will mess with your gear as any trade show booth operator very well knows.
I worked in a computer store, the number of pranks that people got up to with the gear there was insane and some of them were quite a bit more harmful than this one. I really don't see the problem. As long as you can reboot the device no harm done. Once people start flashing your systems or rewriting boot loaders we're in different territory.
I worked in a computer store, the number of pranks that people got up to with the gear there was insane and some of them were quite a bit more harmful than this one. I really don't see the problem. As long as you can reboot the device no harm done. Once people start flashing your systems or rewriting boot loaders we're in different territory.
How do you know a powercycle fixed it?
Because I actually read - and understood - the OPs comment.
Including the part where he never says if the power cycle fixed it?
Including the part where he explains in which part of the memory his program is stored. This is before the age of flash.
If you want to verify it for yourself the manual is here:
https://www.google.com/search?q=HP8566+spectrum+analyzer+ope...
If you want to verify it for yourself the manual is here:
https://www.google.com/search?q=HP8566+spectrum+analyzer+ope...
Thanks for the link. I have not read that manual for over 40 years. Appendix B "Advanced Display Programming" is where I learned the mischief I did at the show.
I guess I could have prevented a lot of HN grief if I had clarified that a AC power cycle absolutely clears all display memory and completely eradicates anything that I had put there.
I guess I could have prevented a lot of HN grief if I had clarified that a AC power cycle absolutely clears all display memory and completely eradicates anything that I had put there.
As pointed out elsewhere maybe the sales guy should know how to operate the thing he is selling?
Also, it sounds like a power cycle cleared up the issue so no big problems.
Also, it sounds like a power cycle cleared up the issue so no big problems.
Well maybe the engineers should know how to sell the thing they're making? The salesperson's job is to sell, not to operate, and why should he know every last intricacy of the machine?
I don't know that a power cycle cleared the issue up, a reset definitely didn't. OP just said the salesperson power-cycled it, not that that fixed it.
I don't know that a power cycle cleared the issue up, a reset definitely didn't. OP just said the salesperson power-cycled it, not that that fixed it.
> Well maybe the engineers should know how to sell the thing they're making?
I agree, why not have an technical guy there who knows how to operate the thing and can support the sales guy? If the company is sending only sales guys with no in-depth technical knowledge to a trade show, it's fully understandable and well-deserved if this sort of thing happens.
> why should he know every last intricacy of the machine?
If I am buying an expensive piece of hardware you better believe I will ask questions about the intricacies and if I don't get answers I will not be buying.
I agree, why not have an technical guy there who knows how to operate the thing and can support the sales guy? If the company is sending only sales guys with no in-depth technical knowledge to a trade show, it's fully understandable and well-deserved if this sort of thing happens.
> why should he know every last intricacy of the machine?
If I am buying an expensive piece of hardware you better believe I will ask questions about the intricacies and if I don't get answers I will not be buying.
oh grow up. no - seriously.
is this the kind of culture you want? no one can ever share bad things theyve done, ever? lets all lie and say we're sinless?
you "feel bad" for how "extremely inappropriate" that was? how tiny is your worldview that this is the cause you think needs correcting?
maybe add something to the conversation instead of calling someone shitty for a decades old action. how are people suppossed to recover from real problems if this is how you treat some meaningless, damageless 5 minute prank?
shovelling embarassment and guilt is the most unhealthy and unproductive forum environment possible.
is this the kind of culture you want? no one can ever share bad things theyve done, ever? lets all lie and say we're sinless?
you "feel bad" for how "extremely inappropriate" that was? how tiny is your worldview that this is the cause you think needs correcting?
maybe add something to the conversation instead of calling someone shitty for a decades old action. how are people suppossed to recover from real problems if this is how you treat some meaningless, damageless 5 minute prank?
shovelling embarassment and guilt is the most unhealthy and unproductive forum environment possible.
In a sibling comment the GP was able to say it was indeed juvenile and they've moved on. I think that makes a fantastically healthy and productive string of comments: someone talks about an interesting past event, someone else points out it wasn't a responsible/polite thing to do since the original story doesn't touch on this, original person agrees and share more history continuing the conversation with some follow up to the story too.
> In a sibling comment the GP was able to say it was indeed juvenile and they've moved on.
That's good to know, but there are lots of folks here who defend the poster's actions to varying degrees, which I find odd. It feels like the poster is more mature (now) than some other commenters.
That's good to know, but there are lots of folks here who defend the poster's actions to varying degrees, which I find odd. It feels like the poster is more mature (now) than some other commenters.
Extremely inappropriate behavior is a pretty strong accusation. Seems like a harmless nerdy prank that occurred 40 years ago. It's not like he changed the monitor to say "Poop Fare."
"40 years ago" is very relevant, too. Everyone is wound so tight these days. There's no such thing as a harmless nerdy prank anymore.
Harmless is a matter of perspective here. The sales guy might have been in serious trouble after it and who knows, could not close some deals he was about to make and maybe was maybe never allowed to be at a trade show again. We do not know.
And well, probably many do not care as sales guys are not much respected here.
(and I have my bias too, but I do not like generalisations too much, in the sense if this idiot sales guy could not fix his machine, bad for him, no harm done to real people)
And well, probably many do not care as sales guys are not much respected here.
(and I have my bias too, but I do not like generalisations too much, in the sense if this idiot sales guy could not fix his machine, bad for him, no harm done to real people)
Then maybe the sales guy should have read the manual of the device and it's active components, just like the OP did?
Sales guys that desire to close deals should know their stuff.
Sales guys that desire to close deals should know their stuff.
So it was not a harmless prank, but a harsh education to tech illiterate people then?
No, not really, just reboot the device and go back to work.
Do you know that, or just assume it?
OPs story ended with him walking away, leaving a state of mess.
Indeed funny in a way and maybe even warranted, depending on the sales guy. I cannot judge that. I have not been there.
But it is not correct to judge it harmless, when a real person suffered potential real harm.
OPs story ended with him walking away, leaving a state of mess.
Indeed funny in a way and maybe even warranted, depending on the sales guy. I cannot judge that. I have not been there.
But it is not correct to judge it harmless, when a real person suffered potential real harm.
"The sales guy might have been in serious trouble after it and who knows, could not close some deals he was about to make and maybe was maybe never allowed to be at a trade show again."
Yes, and that's a much scarier prospect for the sales guy today than it was 40 years ago.
Yes, and that's a much scarier prospect for the sales guy today than it was 40 years ago.
It was serious dick move. Nothing to do with being nerd a lot to do with being jerk.
A dick move would be to break it. Showing off the device's capabilities in novel an interesting ways should lead to a conversation, not a judgment.
Seriously, I've been on tons of trade shows, both in the booth and as a visitor, I'd have definitely struck up a conversation with the guy to see where and how he learned so much about the device. That also would have all but guaranteed getting my device back in pristine working order and a pointer to some information about it that I apparently had missed.
Seriously, I've been on tons of trade shows, both in the booth and as a visitor, I'd have definitely struck up a conversation with the guy to see where and how he learned so much about the device. That also would have all but guaranteed getting my device back in pristine working order and a pointer to some information about it that I apparently had missed.
The story ends with "As I walked to the next exhibit, I saw him cycle the AC power to the instrument in frustration."
So no, this was not about showing device capabilities. Nor about striking conversation. This was about feeling good and superior for making someone frustrated.
(And no, which is not even same as not caring about other peoples feelings, this is about being happy about their feelings being negative.)
So no, this was not about showing device capabilities. Nor about striking conversation. This was about feeling good and superior for making someone frustrated.
(And no, which is not even same as not caring about other peoples feelings, this is about being happy about their feelings being negative.)
Well, if the sales guy had been more knowledgeable or more interested in someone who clearly knew his stuff better than he did then this could have ended differently.
Could the prankster have done better? Sure, no doubt, but it's not as bad as people make it out to be. Could the salesperson have done better? Yes, also no doubt, having been there this was simply a missed opportunity.
Could the prankster have done better? Sure, no doubt, but it's not as bad as people make it out to be. Could the salesperson have done better? Yes, also no doubt, having been there this was simply a missed opportunity.
Are we really trying to claim that sales people should have the same level of knowledge as power-users / developers / engineers who build such things?
Perhaps I'm too young, but I've literally never know any such a salesperson. They're there to be charismatic and friendly, and show the features for which they've been handed a script.
Their job is to drive interest, and address very, VERY high level concerns. They're not experts, else they'd (by and large) be doing something other than sales, yes?
(To be fair, it's possible that we've just eliminated reasonable expectations of salespeople, but that's not clear to me yet)
Perhaps I'm too young, but I've literally never know any such a salesperson. They're there to be charismatic and friendly, and show the features for which they've been handed a script.
Their job is to drive interest, and address very, VERY high level concerns. They're not experts, else they'd (by and large) be doing something other than sales, yes?
(To be fair, it's possible that we've just eliminated reasonable expectations of salespeople, but that's not clear to me yet)
A booth like that would usually be staffed by suits and engineers, and if you are extremely lucky, engineers in suits.
But plenty of companies sent minders and order takers, technically incompetent, they might be able to do a scripted demo but likely would not know the first thing about the actual uses of such a device.
But plenty of companies sent minders and order takers, technically incompetent, they might be able to do a scripted demo but likely would not know the first thing about the actual uses of such a device.
> Perhaps I'm too young, but I've literally never know any such a salesperson.
This was about 30-40 years ago, so it's far more in the time frame where you'd have technically competent sales folk, as you'd be pitching this gear to other engineers at this trade show.
When you're at a trade show for the very field that equipment is designed for and someone is trying to pitch you a piece of equipment that's nearly double the annual salary of an entry level engineer, I think you'd be far more likely to see a salesperson knowledgeable about their gear.
This was about 30-40 years ago, so it's far more in the time frame where you'd have technically competent sales folk, as you'd be pitching this gear to other engineers at this trade show.
When you're at a trade show for the very field that equipment is designed for and someone is trying to pitch you a piece of equipment that's nearly double the annual salary of an entry level engineer, I think you'd be far more likely to see a salesperson knowledgeable about their gear.
That's a great point and clarification, thanks!
This is pretty nice example of "blaming the victim" mentality. No, there was no missed opportunity for salesman, no the salesman done nothing wrong. Did not went out of way to make the situation sux for others either.
Yes, let's bring out the pitchforks for a spur-of-the-moment thing that someone did 40 years ago. Really. I'm sure the victim is still seeing his shrink on account of this.
Let's have a bit of perspective here.
Let's have a bit of perspective here.
> extremely
Does that word have any meaning anymore? The extent of this was having to restart it and being annoyed.
It’s about as inappropriate as your concern trolling.
Does that word have any meaning anymore? The extent of this was having to restart it and being annoyed.
It’s about as inappropriate as your concern trolling.
The fact that you made this comment all is worse than his use of the word. Find better thing to be outraged about.
Your outrage about his outrage about the original outrage is basically a glorious example of Poe's Law; I both love and hate it.
Words should have meaningful usages though, yes?
I mean, we let "literally" become a contranym, and broke an awful lot of conversations and literatary comprehension, yea?
I mean, we let "literally" become a contranym, and broke an awful lot of conversations and literatary comprehension, yea?
What an incredibly strange thing to say about an harmless prank that took place 30 to 40 years ago.
Yes. It's the equivalent of turning someone's phone into Chinese mode (assuming they don't speak it), then walking away.
Only if the phone automatically returns to English on a reboot. Equipment like this from that era had very little non-volatile storage, so it basically boots clean and fresh every time.
I've done that to myself. That took a bit of figuring out :)
Before/while they have an important exam where they need their phone
It was 40 years ago...
and retold with pride
I don't think time would change the severity of the situation. Imagine if someone did a prank at CES2022 and ruined a multimillion display.
Ruined? It was completely reversible, and the prankster did reverse it.
I wouldn't call it completely harmless but like... meh, it would be funny if someone did that tbh
I wouldn't call it completely harmless but like... meh, it would be funny if someone did that tbh
You know what, that would still be very funny if it could be done with a couple of key presses.
That was a great story. Thanks for sharing. Ignore futharkshill‘s comment. Life’s too short to be taken too seriously.
I have an 8566 at home. Didn’t know about the trace C. Thanks, have to try it.
Ha! Reminds me of the recently posted "Stolen from Apple" feature on the original macintosh.
https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Stolen_From_Appl...
https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Stolen_From_Appl...
Fun fact: macOS used to encrypt its system applications as a form of copy protection on Intel machines, using encryption keys that were read from the System Management Controller chip on the board.
They don't do that any more on Apple Silicon machines, and the entire OS is free to download from their CDN, completely unencrypted. Still, though, the SMC on M1 machines (which is now part of the M1 chip itself, and completely different from the one on Intel boxes) continues to hold those very same keys, and they're still "secret" and omitted when you enumerate them. macOS no longer even reads them, but you can dump them with the debug tooling I wrote for Asahi Linux a few weeks ago.
They don't do that any more on Apple Silicon machines, and the entire OS is free to download from their CDN, completely unencrypted. Still, though, the SMC on M1 machines (which is now part of the M1 chip itself, and completely different from the one on Intel boxes) continues to hold those very same keys, and they're still "secret" and omitted when you enumerate them. macOS no longer even reads them, but you can dump them with the debug tooling I wrote for Asahi Linux a few weeks ago.
$ python tools/smccli.py
m1n1 base: 0x100046dc000
Fetching ADT (0x00070000 bytes)...
[...]
[smcep] Starting up
Have fun!
>>> smc.smcep.read("OSK0", 16) + smc.smcep.read("OSK1", 16)
> 20:0x4f534b3000102010 (TYPE=0x10, UNK=0x0, ID=0x2, SIZE=0x10, KEY=0x4f534b30)
< 20:0x202000
> 20:0x4f534b3100103010 (TYPE=0x10, UNK=0x0, ID=0x3, SIZE=0x10, KEY=0x4f534b31)
< 20:0x203000
b'ourhardworkbythesewordsguardedpleasedontsteal(c)AppleComputerInc'more context for other ppl reading: colloquially known as "the haiku" it is a way to force an exploiter to violate copyright law in order to disseminate a method to boot the system on unauthorized hardware
edit: also, hello marcan! tyvm for your work :D
edit: also, hello marcan! tyvm for your work :D
That sounds like the old days, when game cartridges needed to have code that would cause a Sega or Nintendo trademark to appear. The courts did not provide trademark/copyright protection for access control codes.
From Sega v. Accolade - https://openjurist.org/977/f2d/1510
>We hold that when there is no other method of access to the computer that is known or readily available to rival cartridge manufacturers, the use of the initialization code by a rival does not violate the [Lanham Trademark] Act even though that use triggers a misleading trademark display.
I seem to remember a similar case for the Gameboy ROM that needed to contain an image of the Nintendo trademark to boot, but couldn't find a good online reference. Lexmark tried to pull a similar stunt by claiming the ROM code in their cartridge chips was executable code in a secret language, but courts again said it was an access control code first, and thus functional not creative.
From Sega v. Accolade - https://openjurist.org/977/f2d/1510
>We hold that when there is no other method of access to the computer that is known or readily available to rival cartridge manufacturers, the use of the initialization code by a rival does not violate the [Lanham Trademark] Act even though that use triggers a misleading trademark display.
I seem to remember a similar case for the Gameboy ROM that needed to contain an image of the Nintendo trademark to boot, but couldn't find a good online reference. Lexmark tried to pull a similar stunt by claiming the ROM code in their cartridge chips was executable code in a secret language, but courts again said it was an access control code first, and thus functional not creative.
Correct with the Gameboy. In fact, that is literally all the very small ROM (256 bytes) in the Gameboy does: Display the logo from the cartridge and then compare it with the one in the ROM (makes it seem even tinier).
If the comparison fails, the logo was still displayed scrolling down and making the bing sound, but the Gameboy now just halts. Everyone who had one in their youth knows the black block scrolling down with no cartridge inserted, and various variants of corrupted logos if contact was bad or the cartridge broken.
This also means the Gameboy has no “OS” whatsoever, it’s all done by the games. But the system is too simple to need one anyway.
That’s also why it’s so good for writing your first emulator.
If the comparison fails, the logo was still displayed scrolling down and making the bing sound, but the Gameboy now just halts. Everyone who had one in their youth knows the black block scrolling down with no cartridge inserted, and various variants of corrupted logos if contact was bad or the cartridge broken.
This also means the Gameboy has no “OS” whatsoever, it’s all done by the games. But the system is too simple to need one anyway.
That’s also why it’s so good for writing your first emulator.
This case is amazing. Not only did they decide it was not trademark violation, they blamed the trademark holders for putting their competitors in a position where they had to use the trademark in order to compete.
The world was a lot more reasonable before the DMCA.
The world was a lot more reasonable before the DMCA.
Another fun wrinkle is that as part of that suit, Sega engineer Takeshi Nagashima also produced two cartridges with different methods of bypassing the screen "using standard components, at a total extra cost of approximately fifty cents". They offered to let Accolade's counsel examine the cartridges, but only on the condition that Accolade's engineers couldn't see them. This convinced the district court that the code triggering the screen was "nonfunctional", but the Ninth Circuit disagreed.
My guess is that these methods involved some modchip-style tomfoolery like reset glitching or forcing values onto the bus, and could have been defeated by Sega in a future revision of the console.
My guess is that these methods involved some modchip-style tomfoolery like reset glitching or forcing values onto the bus, and could have been defeated by Sega in a future revision of the console.
The Game Boy definitely does do that, as a sibling comment also mentions, though I don't remember there being a case about it. My recollection from long ago is that when you turn on the Game Boy with no cartridge inserted, there's just a black box where the Nintendo logo normally is. There's a well-known similar Nintendo case but it involved the NES, and there was a later one with Sony over the Playstation BIOS.
But yes, the courts (or at least the 9th Circuit) have looked down on these attempts to use copyright and trademark as methods of preventing access. Of course now they have DMCA anticircumvention provisions to help out instead anyhow.
But yes, the courts (or at least the 9th Circuit) have looked down on these attempts to use copyright and trademark as methods of preventing access. Of course now they have DMCA anticircumvention provisions to help out instead anyhow.
There's a nice and detailed video about the thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1cUIGHZLGA
ModernVintageGamer knows his stuff well.
ModernVintageGamer knows his stuff well.
IIRC, the reimplementing version did something like, display the trademark so it could run at all, and then on the next screen (when the game runs), say “not really, but we had to display that so this could run”.
The Gameboy use a very similar system to make it harder to create cartridges not sanctioned by Apple. The cartridge would have to provide the Nintendo logo and the system would check it and then display it (there actually is a TOC/TOU vulnerability there that lets you display something other than the logo on startup). Because the cartridge had to provide the logo, not being licensed by Nintendo meant doing a copyright violation.
Wait, does that mean that if someone wrote the drivers you could make an ARM hackintosh or VM without needing any special measures? Still an EULA violation, but zero friction and zero technical impediments?
Yes, I already run the native build of macOS in a bespoke hypervisor for experimentation purposes (most of the hardware is passed through), and macOS already has a VM-specific ARM kernel that in principle doesn't even require any proprietary CPU features and would run on any ARM machine (the native one wouldn't, it needs custom Apple instructions). I'm pretty sure someone already tried the macOS vmkernel on QEMU/KVM on another ARM box and it boots to a shell. I think it even has virtio support and there's a QEMU Guest Agent built into macOS these days (yes, really).
There's just one catch. The desktop environment requires GPU acceleration to even start, and your two options are emulating the proprietary Apple GPU, or emulating the paravirtualized Metal GPU they developed for VMs. Neither is likely to be particularly easy... it's why I tell people to not expect to be able to run a macOS VM on Linux on an M1 Mac, unless they want to write a whole Metal implementation. A plain kernel in single user mode? Sure. macOS desktop? Good luck :-).
For macOS on macOS on Apple hardware, Apple have their paravirt GPU support on both sides so it basically "just works" with minimal work from the third-party hypervisors that build on those frameworks.
There's just one catch. The desktop environment requires GPU acceleration to even start, and your two options are emulating the proprietary Apple GPU, or emulating the paravirtualized Metal GPU they developed for VMs. Neither is likely to be particularly easy... it's why I tell people to not expect to be able to run a macOS VM on Linux on an M1 Mac, unless they want to write a whole Metal implementation. A plain kernel in single user mode? Sure. macOS desktop? Good luck :-).
For macOS on macOS on Apple hardware, Apple have their paravirt GPU support on both sides so it basically "just works" with minimal work from the third-party hypervisors that build on those frameworks.
> The desktop environment requires GPU acceleration to even start, and your two options are emulating the proprietary Apple GPU, or emulating the paravirtualized Metal GPU they developed for VMs.
That basically enforces in hardware what has always been the commercial position of OSX: open kernel, closed (and ruthlessly guarded) desktop libraries.
That basically enforces in hardware what has always been the commercial position of OSX: open kernel, closed (and ruthlessly guarded) desktop libraries.
Could you pass the GPU (and all attendant hardware) transparently through Linux into a macOS VM, a bit like PCI passthrough (IIRC) is used for Windows VMs?
....hmm, now I think about that I realize it wouldn't have many non-tinkering oriented use cases. Right now I can only think of out-of-band firewalling.
....hmm, now I think about that I realize it wouldn't have many non-tinkering oriented use cases. Right now I can only think of out-of-band firewalling.
It's... complicated. And yeah, at that point, it wouldn't have many use cases.
The hypervisor I wrote for research purposes passes through all the hardware (except the UART), which is easier than trying to do it on top of Linux. But it also doesn't try to be a secure hypervisor or anything like that (it would be trivial for the guest to take over).
The hypervisor I wrote for research purposes passes through all the hardware (except the UART), which is easier than trying to do it on top of Linux. But it also doesn't try to be a secure hypervisor or anything like that (it would be trivial for the guest to take over).
I seem to recall this also being exposed in the commpage.
The commpage had a different message that came from the DSMOS kernel extension which implemented the encryption stuff.
Your karma check for today:
There once was was a user that whined
his existing OS was so blind,
he'd do better to pirate
an OS that ran great
but found his hardware declined.
Please don't steal Mac OS!
Really, that's way uncool.
(C) Apple Computer, Inc.
The original IBM PC (8086) had the letters IBM coded into a specific part of the ROM. When PC clones started being made, IBM (and probably other software companies) would look for those letters to verify the software was running on a genuine IBM PC.
Rather than just copy those characters into their ROMs, the clone companies would add "NOT IBM" to get around any copyright claim - with the letters "IBM" in the same memory location as the originals of course. I discovered this when hacking on an Elonex PC - if anyone remembers those.
Rather than just copy those characters into their ROMs, the clone companies would add "NOT IBM" to get around any copyright claim - with the letters "IBM" in the same memory location as the originals of course. I discovered this when hacking on an Elonex PC - if anyone remembers those.
> it really was a bug that could cause code not to work if a programmer really wanted to execute WAIT 6502!
Imagine running into that problem during that era. No stack overflow, no Google. Just "MICROSOFT!" and confusion.
Imagine running into that problem during that era. No stack overflow, no Google. Just "MICROSOFT!" and confusion.
Programmers were much smaller in numbers, most of them probably enthusiasts, and they pretty much had to understand many more low level details of their machines to effectively use them. Those machines, like the PET here, were also many orders of magnitude simpler than today's computers.
Chances are, someone who actually needed to do "WAIT 6502, x", which is a pretty bespoke statement especially if there is no widely documented device or (interrupt-modified) system variable behind it[1], would be able to figure out the easter egg. And then probably race to publish it in a magazine somehow, so that its existence could be repeated many many times in the press over the decades, which is pretty much what happened.
[1] If that were the case then the easter egg couldn't be there almost by definition.
Chances are, someone who actually needed to do "WAIT 6502, x", which is a pretty bespoke statement especially if there is no widely documented device or (interrupt-modified) system variable behind it[1], would be able to figure out the easter egg. And then probably race to publish it in a magazine somehow, so that its existence could be repeated many many times in the press over the decades, which is pretty much what happened.
[1] If that were the case then the easter egg couldn't be there almost by definition.
[deleted]
Michael Steil at pagetable.com wrote an article about how this easter egg was done across different versions of Microsoft BASIC.
https://www.pagetable.com/?p=43
Bill Gates showed up in the comments :-)
https://www.pagetable.com/?p=43
Bill Gates showed up in the comments :-)
Bill Gates can show up here, it doesn't mean it's really Bill Gates.
Come on, as if Real Bill Gates has anything better to do these days than prowl around on HN
IIRC Michael told me he looked up the IP address and it seemed legitimate.
The real real Bill Gates registered January 5, 2012
https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=BillGates
https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=BillGates
I forgot my password to that account.
I choose to believe that you're actually Bill Gates.
Jeff Barr is in there as well :)
His name links to his page
His name links to his page
Somehow, I never knew that Jack Tramiel, founder of Commodore (and I had both a C64 and an Amiga) was an Auschwitz survivor. And now I just lost the last 40 minutes walking through Auschwitz I and II on Google Street View... :-\
He spent 5+ years in the Lodz ghetto so he never went beyond third grade. He was transported to Auschwitz in '45, spent some weeks there and was sent to Ahlem. He was rescued at Ahlem and interesting fact -- Henry Kissinger was on hand that day with the US Army battalion.
Check out Auschwitz III, even better.
I think you're being snarky, which is not cool.
But if you're not, then I'll tell you that there's really nothing left of Auschwitz III (Monowitz). It's all demolished and it is a rural neighborhood now. Only a few scattered remnants, like this one-man concrete shelter for an SS guard: https://goo.gl/maps/ThX17MZKURGsAnbLA
But if you're not, then I'll tell you that there's really nothing left of Auschwitz III (Monowitz). It's all demolished and it is a rural neighborhood now. Only a few scattered remnants, like this one-man concrete shelter for an SS guard: https://goo.gl/maps/ThX17MZKURGsAnbLA
Dave Plummer posted about this a week ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsNbH_ohKxA (it's an interesting channel to follow from an old timer Microsoftie)
Bill apparently responded: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjPAfdkBprk
Thanks for share this channel! I find many interesting videos and added to my watch list.
I enjoy a lot when old folks set up YT channels to tell interesting stories from the 70-90s, the stereotypical YouTube are young people or people that just talk about current stuff.
Recently I found the channel of the legendary Hip Hop producer DJ Premier, he uploads a series called "So Wassup? DJ Premier's Salute to the Floppy Disk" where he told stories of how his 90s songs come to life, so many good stories from that, recommended! Here is the playlist https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJj47po2m-w&list=PLWDrXC9_8K...
I enjoy a lot when old folks set up YT channels to tell interesting stories from the 70-90s, the stereotypical YouTube are young people or people that just talk about current stuff.
Recently I found the channel of the legendary Hip Hop producer DJ Premier, he uploads a series called "So Wassup? DJ Premier's Salute to the Floppy Disk" where he told stories of how his 90s songs come to life, so many good stories from that, recommended! Here is the playlist https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJj47po2m-w&list=PLWDrXC9_8K...
he can be entertaining but beware of pretty much anything he says about Linux
see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29958684
see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29958684
Dave Plummer...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Plummer_(programmer)
...on this exact topic including a follow up where Bill answers his email about it.
Story:
https://youtu.be/HsNbH_ohKxA
Answer from Bill Gates on it:
https://youtu.be/VjPAfdkBprk
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Plummer_(programmer)
...on this exact topic including a follow up where Bill answers his email about it.
Story:
https://youtu.be/HsNbH_ohKxA
Answer from Bill Gates on it:
https://youtu.be/VjPAfdkBprk
In the early days of windows, many computer stores would have windows running on various pc's with little or not security, so it was very quick and easy to edit the win.ini "run=win.exe" line to just "run=". As soon as the computer was rebooted, it messed up and unless you knew how simple it was to restore windows, it would force the shop into reinstalling windows again.
For a time, you could have jailbroken your iphone by visiting a website in safari, no computer or any sort of wired connection needed. You'd go to the apple store and some kid would have gotten cydia installed on all the demo iphones already
Hah, they used to have a DNS filter for Jailbreak Me at the Apple Stores.
I worked in a Canadian electronics store chain about a decade ago, the demo laptops were just pulled out of the box and setup without password most of the time, depending on who set it up. There was no particular security other than a Kensington lock and them being physically close to the registers.
Back in the late 80s/early 90s, my bored teenage friends and I would cook up floppy disks for the unprotected computers at Circuit City, Best Buy, etc. that contained "special" payloads. Usually just "graphics/sound demos". Sometimes silly, sometimes lewd, always funny (for us, not for the stores). They were made to survive reboots, since the practice of re-imaging floor model demo computers had not taken hold yet. As far as I can recall, nobody was injured during these juvenile pranks.
The early days? Even today I see many demo machines setup with a default account and full admin rights, and kids mess with them all the time.
Ah ! I’m proud of our kids.
I will be sad when this will not be possible anymore because the devices became too closed.
I will be sad when this will not be possible anymore because the devices became too closed.
That is phenomenal that he is blogging, https://www.arcadeattack.co.uk/leonard-tramiel/
Thank you Leonard!
Thank you Leonard!
This reminds me of Joel's My First BillG Review
https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/06/16/my-first-billg-rev...
David Plummer has a YouTube channel where he covers this Easter Egg.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsNbH_ohKxA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsNbH_ohKxA
I hope this becomes a standard part of the “no easter eggs in cURL?!” discourse that makes such frequent appearances on this site. If we must keep discussing it.
Easter eggs are fine if they don't conflict with regular use of the software.
I've helped put easter eggs into sooo many products. Exhortations from management ("... firing offense") simply made us hide them much, much better.
One product I worked on (ahem, no names) we had written an easter egg and hooked it up and everything, then we got cold feet. Not because of any silly rules, but because we realized it truly would have been bad for the product and the company if the egg had caused something to go haywire. We looked at each other, then unanimously decided to remove it. Masking the true purpose of that check-in was actually much harder than hiding the egg to begin with. :-)
One product I worked on (ahem, no names) we had written an easter egg and hooked it up and everything, then we got cold feet. Not because of any silly rules, but because we realized it truly would have been bad for the product and the company if the egg had caused something to go haywire. We looked at each other, then unanimously decided to remove it. Masking the true purpose of that check-in was actually much harder than hiding the egg to begin with. :-)
I still don’t understand this particular discourse. If you’re doing a library, your easter eggs might be cool and you should do them if you feel like it. But they should be out of the path of your documented interfaces.
I see almost no one disagreeing about having no easter eggs in curl on this site.
Maybe we can start one up? Here, I'll have a go:
"I'm a pro-easter egg ideologue and will tolerate no software that does not contain such silliness, nor should any other rational, stable, intelligent person!"
There, now it's your turn.
"I'm a pro-easter egg ideologue and will tolerate no software that does not contain such silliness, nor should any other rational, stable, intelligent person!"
There, now it's your turn.
Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries!
I'm not sure how you knew all if that about me, but the accuracy is astonishing!
But unless I know your position on Easter eggs then I cannot accurately determine to hate you or not.
But unless I know your position on Easter eggs then I cannot accurately determine to hate you or not.
Easter eggs require the easter Bunny. Bunnies don't lay eggs. Therefore easter eggs don't egg-sist.
Q.E.D.
Q.E.D.
Hmm, I'm not sure we've done this whole "flame war" thing properly. Well, there's always next time.
Easter Eggs are fun. What's life without a little whimsy?
Almost all people love easter eggs, including myself.
But having them in heavily used security critical programs like curl is just asking for a heartbleed/log4j/etc type incident.
But having them in heavily used security critical programs like curl is just asking for a heartbleed/log4j/etc type incident.
Life is what happens between fixing issues caused by other people's "easter eggs"
Imo, if half your programs flags aren't undocumented easter eggs that print witty quotes then you're missing the entire point of computer science.
Was there ever a legitimate use case for NOLIST, or was it only useful for hiding what a computer is doing from its owner?
Sure! Printers were slow and paper not an unlimited resource, so you can hide stuff that you don't need printed. For example, commonly-used macro definitions, SINE tables, or hardware drivers. It was just a tool to print only the stuff you were debugging at the time.
Of course it can be abused if the only thing being delivered is a hard copy. I'm a bit surprised that the original source code wasn't delivered and the customer built it themselves. But assemblers often ran on mainframes, and that wasn't cheap.
Of course it can be abused if the only thing being delivered is a hard copy. I'm a bit surprised that the original source code wasn't delivered and the customer built it themselves. But assemblers often ran on mainframes, and that wasn't cheap.
I may be misinterpreting the story, but did Gates basically sabotage the computer (temporarily) of a trade show attendee?
I presume his intention was to show off the Microsoft easter egg, but because it had been removed, it did not have the expected results. I don't think there was any intention to have a detrimental effect on the machine.
Also hanging a computer is not sabotage unless it's doing something like moving a robot arm at the time. You just have to reboot it. For the PET this takes under a second.
Yes, automatically restarting a subsystem can be much faster than a second, but you can't type a new BASIC command much faster than that anyway.
So the basic interpreter could wake up, run, persist it state back to flash and shut the machine down between every keypress.
That microreboot paper is in my top-k list.
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=1826342037496418991...
That microreboot paper is in my top-k list.
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=1826342037496418991...
Yup, although not on the PET, which didn't have Flash. On a modern computer you might be interested in minimizing power consumption, and probably on-chip SRAM is a cheaper place to persist the between-keystrokes state than Flash, which is usually ruinously power-hungry NOR. You can keep CMOS SRAM alive on microwatts from a coin-cell battery for many years, as you probably know.
Or were you thinking about persisting consistent state for failure recovery after a power failure?
What's your top-k list?
Armando Fox's crash-only software paper is also very inspiring.
Or were you thinking about persisting consistent state for failure recovery after a power failure?
What's your top-k list?
Armando Fox's crash-only software paper is also very inspiring.
I had a response here but I think FF ate it. Weird. Top-k was my dorky way of saying top 10 paper list.
Anyway, I don't have a formal top-10 (k) list of papers I think are interesting. These two papers definitely changed the way I think and to me that was the profound self-aware meta-effect. I realized that papers can change your mind, so that is my primary criteria for interestingness. The results are amazing too, in certain fields, like Astrophysics/Biology they are answering the big questions. But the little stuff down here, these facts are staring us right in the face all the time. The new mental model or device that allowed us to see that new fact is the real innovation in human cognition. The x-rays allowed us to see inside, but the act of seeing inside enabled us to realize what other things can we "see inside of". In a way, ML is a digital x-ray, enabling us to "see inside of" things we wouldn't think about even asking.
So on the top-k list, anything by Hofstadter. Esp "Analogy as the Core of Cognition" and the papers by https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=Z4y_Z3sAAAAJ and all the videos by Robert Sapolsky. Omissions are not a sleight. :)
Anyway, I don't have a formal top-10 (k) list of papers I think are interesting. These two papers definitely changed the way I think and to me that was the profound self-aware meta-effect. I realized that papers can change your mind, so that is my primary criteria for interestingness. The results are amazing too, in certain fields, like Astrophysics/Biology they are answering the big questions. But the little stuff down here, these facts are staring us right in the face all the time. The new mental model or device that allowed us to see that new fact is the real innovation in human cognition. The x-rays allowed us to see inside, but the act of seeing inside enabled us to realize what other things can we "see inside of". In a way, ML is a digital x-ray, enabling us to "see inside of" things we wouldn't think about even asking.
So on the top-k list, anything by Hofstadter. Esp "Analogy as the Core of Cognition" and the papers by https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=Z4y_Z3sAAAAJ and all the videos by Robert Sapolsky. Omissions are not a sleight. :)
I see! Thank you!
No, he was expecting the behavior of an Easter egg, which had been removed in a debug sweep because it could collide with typical usage of a command in BASIC. So, his command should've done a neat trick, and it didn't, and he was furious.
I think its fair to say computers this simple couldn't really be sabotaged. You'd just power cycle them and they'd be back to the basic prompt (I dunno if this computer needed basic run from disk or it booted into it like a TRS-80). This is just like writing 10 Print "Microsoft!" and 20 Goto 10. I imagine in both cases pressing the break key, or similar, is all you need to end this loop anyway.
If the computer was just sitting at the basic prompt it wasn't doing anything anyway.
If the computer was just sitting at the basic prompt it wasn't doing anything anyway.
> I think its fair to say computers this simple couldn't really be sabotaged
Maybe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killer_poke
Maybe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killer_poke
Wow thank you for this! Ive never heard of this. The early days were truly crazy.
Bill Gates was trying to show off an Easter Egg (hidden silly feature) that he himself had planted in DOS. Unbeknownst to him, it had been removed. Instead of printing "MICROSOFT" 10 times, it hung the machine.
it was BASIC, not DOS. I think this was a Commodore computer he was talking about.
Funny thing is I know it's BASIC and not DOS but I still wrote DOS. I blame lack of sleep, caffeine, and... something. But yeah my mistake there.
Sort of, but on accident. He expected the command he entered to trigger the Easter egg and print Microsoft 10 times, but on the PET, they had removed the Easter egg.
[deleted]
I think he just wanted to trigger an easter egg.
Related video with more details by ex MS systems engineer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsNbH_ohKxA
Has anyone tried this in BASIC on a TRS-80 Model 100? That's the machine I learned to code on as a kid and allegedly the last one Gates himself wrote the kernel for...
I just got up, walked into my office, and tried it on a 102, but WAIT doesn't seem to be recognized. I'll try it on my 100 later, but I'd wager the same.
heheh. Yeah, I don't remember WAIT being a function on that device. Very cool that you still have both of those. I would love to poke around on one again, one day.
Yep, no dice on either. Consulted all the docs I could see and no sign of WAIT. There's an INP for reading a port, but no waiting for it.
Pretty sure it's not in the original TRS-80 model 1 Level II ROM. (Also a Microsoft version). I disassembled it to see what unused key words it had, then revectored some of the disk related commands to my own code. (Before I got a floppy disk system for it).
Dude. At that point you are emboldened by the Fates to say, “Bond—Janes Bond.”
Trade shows are a particular kind of crazy.
Perhaps unpopular opinion: I find Gates' need to show off in this particular manner, and his reaction to it not going as expected, to be in really poor taste, even if the author themselves seem to have not minded it.
There were so many ways in which this interaction could have gone. He could have a side chat with the author, talked about other instances where this did work etc. But no, he had to try to assert dominance in this really weird way, and when it didn't work, it made him mad.
There were so many ways in which this interaction could have gone. He could have a side chat with the author, talked about other instances where this did work etc. But no, he had to try to assert dominance in this really weird way, and when it didn't work, it made him mad.
I wouldn't say unpopular, but it's hard to judge someone so severely for their behavior on a trade show 30+ years ago where none of us where present.
Not sure I buy this argument. Are you only going to ever judge people based on first hand experience?
No of course not. But I'm less likely to do so when I'm far removed from an event in both time and space.
It is worse than poor taste.
They stuck a trojan in customers' code, not refected on the source code they were obliged to provide. And, delivered the source only as a listing, to make it harder to catch.
Depending on the contract, it might have been out-and-out fraud.
They stuck a trojan in customers' code, not refected on the source code they were obliged to provide. And, delivered the source only as a listing, to make it harder to catch.
Depending on the contract, it might have been out-and-out fraud.
I imagine the story is exaggerated.