I hate telephones (2017)(jameshfisher.com)
jameshfisher.com
I hate telephones (2017)
https://jameshfisher.com/2017/11/08/i-hate-telephones/
80 comments
This is a surprisingly popular take, so I'm curious.
If texting didn't exist and everyone you talk with had to switch to talking over the phone, how many people would you have to answer per day? This is assuming everyone would turn a text conversation into a call, which obviously is the worst case and wouldn't happen.
Everyone with "text message anxiety" I know acts like they have 20 friends blasting on their phone every day, sucking up all of their precious Netflix time, yet I look at their Whatsapp and it's two unread messages from yesterday at best (DMs, of course – undirected group chat messages obviously don't count, groups can be muted and no one expects a reply on those unless they're tagged or it's a general question to arrange something, which is rare).
If texting didn't exist and everyone you talk with had to switch to talking over the phone, how many people would you have to answer per day? This is assuming everyone would turn a text conversation into a call, which obviously is the worst case and wouldn't happen.
Everyone with "text message anxiety" I know acts like they have 20 friends blasting on their phone every day, sucking up all of their precious Netflix time, yet I look at their Whatsapp and it's two unread messages from yesterday at best (DMs, of course – undirected group chat messages obviously don't count, groups can be muted and no one expects a reply on those unless they're tagged or it's a general question to arrange something, which is rare).
>If texting didn't exist and everyone you talk with had to switch to talking over the phone, how many people would you have to answer per day?
I understand the purpose of your question but it's not constructive to the discussion because you've framed it in terms of not having technical choices to get the response you want. Therefore, the obvious outcome is that people have to have a non-zero amount of answering the phone. Putting constraints on technology (no texting) in a hypothetical question to force people into tautological answers (aha, so you were able to respond to voice calls without bleeding to death which means your feelings are illogical.)
Same idea as interrogating people who don't like boats and ships with "gotcha!" style questions: "But what if airplanes didn't exist and you needed to cross the ocean?" -- Obviously, you'd have unhappy travelers that forced themselves to use ships that didn't want to. People do what they have to do which overrides unpleasant actions.
But the discussion isn't about what people _had_ to do. It's about _preferences_. The blog author eventually called Barclay's bank but he really didn't _want_ to.
A lot of people including many old people before Generation X don't like answering phones. My previous comment about learning that lesson: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21008851
I understand the purpose of your question but it's not constructive to the discussion because you've framed it in terms of not having technical choices to get the response you want. Therefore, the obvious outcome is that people have to have a non-zero amount of answering the phone. Putting constraints on technology (no texting) in a hypothetical question to force people into tautological answers (aha, so you were able to respond to voice calls without bleeding to death which means your feelings are illogical.)
Same idea as interrogating people who don't like boats and ships with "gotcha!" style questions: "But what if airplanes didn't exist and you needed to cross the ocean?" -- Obviously, you'd have unhappy travelers that forced themselves to use ships that didn't want to. People do what they have to do which overrides unpleasant actions.
But the discussion isn't about what people _had_ to do. It's about _preferences_. The blog author eventually called Barclay's bank but he really didn't _want_ to.
A lot of people including many old people before Generation X don't like answering phones. My previous comment about learning that lesson: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21008851
Not exactly. You are correct I was being slightly duplicitous, but the point I was trying to make is the claims of being "flooded" by personal requests for conversation are, in my experience, almost entirely overblown – note that I'm talking personal here, not business/work related. The objections to having conversations with friends always seem to boil down to "I need to focus" and "too many interruptions". When you're an IC being constantly interrupted by meetings, I agree. But to apply the same logic to personal acquaintances and friends?
Anecdotally, people who claim they have no time for talking on the phone will have approximately 2-3 friends they talk on a regular (not even daily) basis and spend afternoons binging TV shows. Framing it as a "so much context switching required!" is what's really intellectually dishonest here. Perhaps there's something that is making people anxious or annoyed of talking synchronously with friends over the phone. Sure. But to transpose the work argument doesn't hold water.
Also, once again, anecdotally (but I'd love to see studies about this), people who claim they "only operate well asynchronously" will Never. Ever. Reply to text/email.
Anecdotally, people who claim they have no time for talking on the phone will have approximately 2-3 friends they talk on a regular (not even daily) basis and spend afternoons binging TV shows. Framing it as a "so much context switching required!" is what's really intellectually dishonest here. Perhaps there's something that is making people anxious or annoyed of talking synchronously with friends over the phone. Sure. But to transpose the work argument doesn't hold water.
Also, once again, anecdotally (but I'd love to see studies about this), people who claim they "only operate well asynchronously" will Never. Ever. Reply to text/email.
You seem to imply that interruptions to watching passive entertainment don’t count as interruptions, is this correct and if so, why do you do that?
I can easily answer that - we have to look no further than the early 200s as well as the experience of our (GenX) parents. Where I used to work a lot of the things were settled by internal telephone calls within the office. On a normal workday I would receive anywhere from 10 to 30 calls, when work sessions were intense it would near 50-60 for a working day. Since the work I had to do was extremely detail-oriented and required a lot of concentration these calls were absolutely destroying my productivity.
My parents would receive about 5 to 20 calls every day, which I had to answer and be sort of like a secretary (as they were often not at home) - this was before mobile phones. This was an experience that was very very not pleasant.
My parents would receive about 5 to 20 calls every day, which I had to answer and be sort of like a secretary (as they were often not at home) - this was before mobile phones. This was an experience that was very very not pleasant.
60 calls in an 8-hour day is a call every 8 minutes, on average. This includes the time actually talking on the phone, and whatever non-phone duties you'd have.
That's not an impossible rate. It does seem improbable, however.
That's not an impossible rate. It does seem improbable, however.
Well it was how life was. I was a product manager and then an analyst and I got phone calls from various people all the time at my desk. It was just how business worked. Yes I was grateful when someone just asked a simple question by internal only email instead.
And yes you called friends out of the blue because how would you communicate otherwise?
And yes you called friends out of the blue because how would you communicate otherwise?
You made it clear in another reply you weren't including work, which for me is where the bulk of disruptive interruptions come from. Some days it may only be a couple, but it can also easily be dozens.
On a personal level, I don't consider "Netflix time" interrupting anything -- it's like the lowest priority thing I ever do, and I'd happily answer a call from a friend or family member. I and most of my friends have kids, so we rarely spontaneously call each other: it's usually preceded by a text along the lines of "You around?". I'm not sure what would happen with only phone; probably just less communication overall. Today I'll sometimes get (or send) a text in the middle of the work day, but I'm not sure that would be replaced by a phone call -- it would either happen outside work hours or not at all.
Excluding group chats is also not really fair: for example a group chat I'm in now has been about arranging a get-together soon, and that would likely involve several phone calls to make it happen and figure out a time that works for most people.
There's also some correspondence that happens over email today that you'd have to consider. For example, if you're moving (selling / buying houses) there's a whole ton of things with real estate agents, lawyers, bank and insurance that have to happen. If your lawyer calls to confirm a couple details, you either interrupt what you're doing or pay them extra as they can't finish their work and will have to pick it back up later (your return call is just as interrupting to them!).
On a personal level, I don't consider "Netflix time" interrupting anything -- it's like the lowest priority thing I ever do, and I'd happily answer a call from a friend or family member. I and most of my friends have kids, so we rarely spontaneously call each other: it's usually preceded by a text along the lines of "You around?". I'm not sure what would happen with only phone; probably just less communication overall. Today I'll sometimes get (or send) a text in the middle of the work day, but I'm not sure that would be replaced by a phone call -- it would either happen outside work hours or not at all.
Excluding group chats is also not really fair: for example a group chat I'm in now has been about arranging a get-together soon, and that would likely involve several phone calls to make it happen and figure out a time that works for most people.
There's also some correspondence that happens over email today that you'd have to consider. For example, if you're moving (selling / buying houses) there's a whole ton of things with real estate agents, lawyers, bank and insurance that have to happen. If your lawyer calls to confirm a couple details, you either interrupt what you're doing or pay them extra as they can't finish their work and will have to pick it back up later (your return call is just as interrupting to them!).
We evolved in a world of social distraction. Now our mental life is so fragile that it can be disrupted into anger by a spontaneous interaction.
Yet the information systems we live in are also designed to continuously distract the hell out of us.
If you need to focus, turn off your phone, lock your door, and do not go online to read and post.
Otherwise come join your fellow human animals in the beautiful dance of communication that gives us our superpowers!
Yet the information systems we live in are also designed to continuously distract the hell out of us.
If you need to focus, turn off your phone, lock your door, and do not go online to read and post.
Otherwise come join your fellow human animals in the beautiful dance of communication that gives us our superpowers!
Communication is great, but asynchronous communication is far better than synchronous.
Problems it solves:
- Not having something to hand, or having to look something up: I can take my time and find it, then email/text back
- Being interrupted: I'll get back to you once I'm free
- Dealing with business hours: I can email at 10pm and you can get back to me when you're in work the next day
- Not having a record of communication: I can have an unbroken chain of communication the entire way through that we can both refer back to
The only real negative is less immediacy, but things are rarely needed right now. If we kept phone calls to only things that were necessary right then and there, we'd hardly ever get them.
Problems it solves:
- Not having something to hand, or having to look something up: I can take my time and find it, then email/text back
- Being interrupted: I'll get back to you once I'm free
- Dealing with business hours: I can email at 10pm and you can get back to me when you're in work the next day
- Not having a record of communication: I can have an unbroken chain of communication the entire way through that we can both refer back to
The only real negative is less immediacy, but things are rarely needed right now. If we kept phone calls to only things that were necessary right then and there, we'd hardly ever get them.
There are advantages to synchronous, however. Stuff you don't necessarily need to know right now, but if you can't take care of it in realtime, you wouldn't bother with async. Say, I'm at the store and I want to know if my girlfriend needs [some product I'm staring at], and I want to know right away, because I'm about to leave, but if she's unavailable, it's no big deal. I'll try to call her and if she doesn't pick up, I just skip it. I'm not going to do an async query and then stand around for some undetermined amount of time to decide whether she's going to respond. It's synchronous or bail. That doesn't imply that it's needed now.
I'm not talking just life-or-death stuff, I would be calling that something that you need to know right there. There's a very set, short timeframe for you to receive this information before it can no longer be acted upon. So of course a phone call makes more sense there.
Going to a store spontaneously and the other person spontaneously needing something from that store but not going themself sounds wild and unhinged to me.
Save everyone the hassle and just don’t call. If she needed something she can just get it when she originally planned to. The unplanned phone call out of the blue can be 100% avoided
Save everyone the hassle and just don’t call. If she needed something she can just get it when she originally planned to. The unplanned phone call out of the blue can be 100% avoided
"Hey, you mentioned you needed mushrooms for dinner. Did you get them yet? I'm at the store and could grab them right now and save you a trip," sounds "unhinged" to you? WTF.
I must be really unhinged. Wonder if this person is married?
A problem with phone calls is that they interrupt no matter what. The person calling have no idea if they are interrupting.
If I am in my home with family or in the office with colleagues they can look at me and check if I look busy/occupied and then decide if they want to interrupt me.
If I am in my home with family or in the office with colleagues they can look at me and check if I look busy/occupied and then decide if they want to interrupt me.
> The person calling have no idea if they are interrupting
Nor should they care. This is in your control, exactly as it should be: turn the ringer off.
Nor should they care. This is in your control, exactly as it should be: turn the ringer off.
If they do the same thing, now it takes potentiality days of "phone tag" before you happen to find a time you're both free.
With async comms, you initially go back and forth over text/chat/email/whatever. Sometimes resolving in minutes/hours. If you both decide it'd be faster to chat synchronously, you schedule a call and do that.
Honestly, that fact async comms exist makes it kind of presumptuous to assume you can make someones device ring at anytime and just get their immediate and full attention. I feel that way both as a caller and callee.
There's obviously exceptions, such as immediate family: but we roughly know what each other are doing, and the context. If my wife actually phones me, I will drop whatever I'm doing because it's guaranteed to be more important.
With async comms, you initially go back and forth over text/chat/email/whatever. Sometimes resolving in minutes/hours. If you both decide it'd be faster to chat synchronously, you schedule a call and do that.
Honestly, that fact async comms exist makes it kind of presumptuous to assume you can make someones device ring at anytime and just get their immediate and full attention. I feel that way both as a caller and callee.
There's obviously exceptions, such as immediate family: but we roughly know what each other are doing, and the context. If my wife actually phones me, I will drop whatever I'm doing because it's guaranteed to be more important.
that's what i do. the problem is there is never a good time when an unexpected interruption is ok, unless it's my wife or my kids.
so my phone is silent all the time. if a phonecall comes in when i am busy most often i don't even notice it. if i recognize the number i'll call back later.
contrary to what others say, calls from friends are usually ok, what bothers me most is spam calls. because not only do i get interrupted, but i get nothing positive from the call either. it's just wasted. with a call from friends at least we end up having a useful conversation which makes up for any lost time.
so my phone is silent all the time. if a phonecall comes in when i am busy most often i don't even notice it. if i recognize the number i'll call back later.
contrary to what others say, calls from friends are usually ok, what bothers me most is spam calls. because not only do i get interrupted, but i get nothing positive from the call either. it's just wasted. with a call from friends at least we end up having a useful conversation which makes up for any lost time.
I also hate microwaves, why do most of them have such loud sounds. If I set the timer to 1 minute there's no need to remind me when it ends, I'm literally standing next to it. Yet it produces this loud sound, so you can't use it when someone is sleeping nearby.
I have that issue with many appliances. Both the washer and drier in my house buzz so loud when they are done I'm surprised my neighbors 2-3 apartments away have not complained.
Also have that issue with MacOS!!!! If you have headphones on (so volume not zero) and you need to reboot it will Chime out loud via the build in speakers. that sound does not go through the headphones period. So you're sitting near someone sleeping and for some reason you need to reboot and PPPPPPOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNN! Thanks Apple! >:(
I'd prefer to just disable it 100%. Maybe some mac guru knows how. You have to remember to set the volume to zero before you reboot. Maybe Apple should make iOS and iPad OS also have startup sounds just to be consistently annoying.
Also have that issue with MacOS!!!! If you have headphones on (so volume not zero) and you need to reboot it will Chime out loud via the build in speakers. that sound does not go through the headphones period. So you're sitting near someone sleeping and for some reason you need to reboot and PPPPPPOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNN! Thanks Apple! >:(
I'd prefer to just disable it 100%. Maybe some mac guru knows how. You have to remember to set the volume to zero before you reboot. Maybe Apple should make iOS and iPad OS also have startup sounds just to be consistently annoying.
It's in the Sound settings in the System Preferences app, the option is called "Play sound on startup"
In addition to other commenters, command line from macOS and other OSes: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Mac#Mute_startup_chime
If we are thinking about the same thing, https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT211996 works.
My biggest frustration is that if you stop it with 4 seconds left it will still be sitting there with 4 seconds left the next day. Brand new microwaves still do this.
How hard would it be to implement a timer that just sees after x minutes there's no activity, so reset to the clock? I guess this just isn't a feature that sells microwaves or that you can even put in marketing material, so it never gets done.
How hard would it be to implement a timer that just sees after x minutes there's no activity, so reset to the clock? I guess this just isn't a feature that sells microwaves or that you can even put in marketing material, so it never gets done.
Look up your microwave's manual, almost all modern ones actually have a setting to disable beeps.
It was life-changing when I discovered this, yeah.
... and then I moved into an apartment that has a microwave that has no mute option. I'm getting closer and closer to just finding and cutting that beeper wire...
... and then I moved into an apartment that has a microwave that has no mute option. I'm getting closer and closer to just finding and cutting that beeper wire...
I did that on my previous microwave (and then when it eventually broke I got one that had a mute option). You do have to be very careful when opening a microwave (the high-voltage capacitor can store charge for quite a while if the bleeder resistor goes open-circuit), but it's generally not to hard to avoid that part and just remove the damn buzzer.
Yeah, I assume it'll be on or facing the faceplate, so it should be fairly safe to access and murder, for great justice.
Microwaves have substantial amounts of power going through them, I entirely agree on the safety callout - they're probably the scariest thing in your house to poke around in, now that vacuum tubes are mostly gone.
Microwaves have substantial amounts of power going through them, I entirely agree on the safety callout - they're probably the scariest thing in your house to poke around in, now that vacuum tubes are mostly gone.
My trick is to stop the heating just before it ends.
My parents have a toaster that beeps very loud twice when the toasting is done. Come on, I'm waiting at the table next to the toaster and the natural noise of the bread being released is more than enough. I wonder if the engineers actually tried their shit in real conditions. These beeps are just annoying especially just after waking up and there's no way to disable them. And yes, I would be afraid of using the toaster when someone is still sleeping.
My parents have a toaster that beeps very loud twice when the toasting is done. Come on, I'm waiting at the table next to the toaster and the natural noise of the bread being released is more than enough. I wonder if the engineers actually tried their shit in real conditions. These beeps are just annoying especially just after waking up and there's no way to disable them. And yes, I would be afraid of using the toaster when someone is still sleeping.
The engineers are from cultures where loud noises are a part of life. More expensive appliances will (usually) have softer tones
With my microwave, toaster, and desktop PC, I opened up the appliance and put a piece of electrical tape over the beeper to dampen the sound.
my current favorite example of useless noise is UPS - battery backup.
If the power goes out, i don't really need the UPS beeping to tell me so. The beeping is so maddening. Power goes out at night, i don't care! don't wake me up! Power goes off during the day? I'm fairly confident all of the lights and computer monitors and fans shutting off will clue me in.
If the power goes out, i don't really need the UPS beeping to tell me so. The beeping is so maddening. Power goes out at night, i don't care! don't wake me up! Power goes off during the day? I'm fairly confident all of the lights and computer monitors and fans shutting off will clue me in.
This take is so incredibly obnoxious, and it's particularly obnoxious because it is so prevalent in my generation (Millennials) that it actually started poisoning others that never had a problem with this (Gen X comes to mind).
Phone calls are actually great, especially in these days: it's the only way to ensure you can have a stable, consistent conversation with someone that's not standing in front of you (individual or business), in an age where it became socially acceptable to skim text messages without reading them properly, leading to obnoxious, error prone communication, or to just stop replying to people whenever you feel like it, even when in the middle of a somewhat synchronous messaging session, in particular when you're forced to make a decision or relay bad news to the other party (the horror!).
"No one should ever be able to interrupt me, absolutely ever" is a disturbingly entitled and modern take. Not too long ago, it was perfectly fine for people to turn up at your house unannounced, to pay you a visit, for no reason in particular other than to engage socially and you were expected to host them at your house (!). Surely we can deal with the very occasional call from someone that wants 5 minutes of your time, no? This opinion is so popular that I wonder if I'm the only one who doesn't have dozens of people competing for my attention on a daily basis.
If spam calls are an issue (and I understand they're absolutely horrid in the US, whereas in the UK, where the author is from, you may get one or two spam calls ever couple of months, from my experience), just don't answer unknown numbers unless you're waiting for a specific callback, as most people do.
The article then goes on about a couple of unrelated things that have nothing to do with telephones, such as companies having inadequate customer support channels or online banking functionalities. Taking his Barclays example, he could do what he wanted (adjust loan repayments) in branch, yet it is of course time consuming to do so. If Barclays was unable to service him by phone, would he also be denouncing "talking to people in real life" in general because that's the only method this particular bank offered him for servicing his account? No one is arguing changing your loan repayments shouldn't be an online banking functionality there.
And yes, if you're ill but can't be arsed to call your NHS GP, then you're clearly not sick and shouldn't be tying up already strained public resources. If you do have a proper disability, then I do believe your GP should arrange for an alternate means of communication with you. "I don't like phones" is not a disability, it's entitlement.
Phone calls are actually great, especially in these days: it's the only way to ensure you can have a stable, consistent conversation with someone that's not standing in front of you (individual or business), in an age where it became socially acceptable to skim text messages without reading them properly, leading to obnoxious, error prone communication, or to just stop replying to people whenever you feel like it, even when in the middle of a somewhat synchronous messaging session, in particular when you're forced to make a decision or relay bad news to the other party (the horror!).
"No one should ever be able to interrupt me, absolutely ever" is a disturbingly entitled and modern take. Not too long ago, it was perfectly fine for people to turn up at your house unannounced, to pay you a visit, for no reason in particular other than to engage socially and you were expected to host them at your house (!). Surely we can deal with the very occasional call from someone that wants 5 minutes of your time, no? This opinion is so popular that I wonder if I'm the only one who doesn't have dozens of people competing for my attention on a daily basis.
If spam calls are an issue (and I understand they're absolutely horrid in the US, whereas in the UK, where the author is from, you may get one or two spam calls ever couple of months, from my experience), just don't answer unknown numbers unless you're waiting for a specific callback, as most people do.
The article then goes on about a couple of unrelated things that have nothing to do with telephones, such as companies having inadequate customer support channels or online banking functionalities. Taking his Barclays example, he could do what he wanted (adjust loan repayments) in branch, yet it is of course time consuming to do so. If Barclays was unable to service him by phone, would he also be denouncing "talking to people in real life" in general because that's the only method this particular bank offered him for servicing his account? No one is arguing changing your loan repayments shouldn't be an online banking functionality there.
And yes, if you're ill but can't be arsed to call your NHS GP, then you're clearly not sick and shouldn't be tying up already strained public resources. If you do have a proper disability, then I do believe your GP should arrange for an alternate means of communication with you. "I don't like phones" is not a disability, it's entitlement.
> "No one should ever be able to interrupt me, absolutely ever" is a disturbingly entitled and modern take.
I have developed a telephone phobia when things started to fall apart between some people and me. I got really scared of phone calls and seeing particular people call. While this is no longer an issue, the fear has been embedded in me. I have rationalized some of it with a "I don't want people to interrupt me". In reality, I don't mind being on a phone call to discuss something, but these have moved on to other platforms.
I mostly get these days spam calls specifically from outside of my country of residence and recruiters (specifically English! - plenty of +44 numbers). Unlike years ago (in the US for me), I remember 95% of all calls were meaningful, the complete opposite of where it is for me now.
Regardless, I agree with your statement. This is anecdotal for me, but the march of technology and its imposition on the way we communicate has also resulted in the creeping march of very low-brow behavior unseen in times when talking to someone over some network involved just picking up a phone and calling them.
I have developed a telephone phobia when things started to fall apart between some people and me. I got really scared of phone calls and seeing particular people call. While this is no longer an issue, the fear has been embedded in me. I have rationalized some of it with a "I don't want people to interrupt me". In reality, I don't mind being on a phone call to discuss something, but these have moved on to other platforms.
I mostly get these days spam calls specifically from outside of my country of residence and recruiters (specifically English! - plenty of +44 numbers). Unlike years ago (in the US for me), I remember 95% of all calls were meaningful, the complete opposite of where it is for me now.
Regardless, I agree with your statement. This is anecdotal for me, but the march of technology and its imposition on the way we communicate has also resulted in the creeping march of very low-brow behavior unseen in times when talking to someone over some network involved just picking up a phone and calling them.
>Not too long ago, it was perfectly fine for people to turn up at your house unannounced, to pay you a visit, for no reason in particular other than to engage socially and you were expected to host them at your house (!).
Not really. Maybe for the particularly extroverted individuals, but I'm quite aware of people, both older and younger generations, who would love nothing more than to have nothing to do with anyone disturbing the peace of their homes.
Folks out in the countryside especially have such a tendency; people go out to live in the country in part because there's less god damn humans to deal with compared to city life.
Not really. Maybe for the particularly extroverted individuals, but I'm quite aware of people, both older and younger generations, who would love nothing more than to have nothing to do with anyone disturbing the peace of their homes.
Folks out in the countryside especially have such a tendency; people go out to live in the country in part because there's less god damn humans to deal with compared to city life.
I definitely don't come from a family of "particularly extroverted individuals" but when I was a teenager, about 10 years ago, in the UK, it was VERY common on the weekend for family members to randomly appear without calling ahead. Now it is totally unheard of
I think that people are blissfully unaware of how different things were before we gained the ability to instantly communicate across long distances at all times. Even those who lived through it have forgotten, or have no wish to go back (as you said, who wants random people to arrive? Not many people. But still, THEY DID)
I think that people are blissfully unaware of how different things were before we gained the ability to instantly communicate across long distances at all times. Even those who lived through it have forgotten, or have no wish to go back (as you said, who wants random people to arrive? Not many people. But still, THEY DID)
Of course. With the ease of communication we have, and considering we no longer have servants or a designated person in the family that is tasked with maintaining the house to a perfect standard at all times as their full time job, it goes without saying it's usually rude to try to do so. Not arguing we should go back to that.
I was attempting to drive the point that we've gone from "you can be interrupted at any moment when you're home in and be expected to host friends" from "I get severe anxiety if I get a phone call". Clearly there's a point in between, or do most people really like the hermit lifestyle? Even if some people in here are genuinely busy with hobbies, side projects or genuinely lead a busy life, most people I know that express this point of view are most definitely not doing anything remotely interesting with their free time.
The fact that extreme social isolation (either on purpose or not) is one of many factors that can lead to steep decline in mental health suggests that behaving like this is not good for us, yet a life of "do not talk to me ever, email me if you must" is always seen as the perfect end goal in most of these discussions.
I was attempting to drive the point that we've gone from "you can be interrupted at any moment when you're home in and be expected to host friends" from "I get severe anxiety if I get a phone call". Clearly there's a point in between, or do most people really like the hermit lifestyle? Even if some people in here are genuinely busy with hobbies, side projects or genuinely lead a busy life, most people I know that express this point of view are most definitely not doing anything remotely interesting with their free time.
The fact that extreme social isolation (either on purpose or not) is one of many factors that can lead to steep decline in mental health suggests that behaving like this is not good for us, yet a life of "do not talk to me ever, email me if you must" is always seen as the perfect end goal in most of these discussions.
why do people need to be doing something interesting by your or anyone else's standards to hate being interrupted? "people like to not be interrupted too much" is certainly a weird take.
yet, equating "likes to not be interrupted on someone else's schedule" with "likes extreme social isolation to the point of mental illness" is a weirder one.
just because i want people to text me that they're coming over, and waits till i see it and confirm that that's cool with me, doesn't mean i'm into driving myself crazy in solitary confinement. this is the default for most people agreeing with the article, and folks like you are just upset because you hate not being able to get your hit of extroversion in on your schedule but have to wait (more than in the 80s) for folks to agree to share their social energy.
yet, equating "likes to not be interrupted on someone else's schedule" with "likes extreme social isolation to the point of mental illness" is a weirder one.
just because i want people to text me that they're coming over, and waits till i see it and confirm that that's cool with me, doesn't mean i'm into driving myself crazy in solitary confinement. this is the default for most people agreeing with the article, and folks like you are just upset because you hate not being able to get your hit of extroversion in on your schedule but have to wait (more than in the 80s) for folks to agree to share their social energy.
> that it actually started poisoning others that never had a problem with this (Gen X comes to mind).
sigh
https://slowrevealgraphs.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/scre...
sigh
https://slowrevealgraphs.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/scre...
I'm sorry you feel talking to other human beings synchronously is the same as being forced to systematically adhere to a norm that is now commonly accepted to be determined by epigenetic factors.
> "Not too long ago, it was perfectly fine for people to turn up at your house unannounced, to pay you a visit, for no reason in particular other than to engage socially and you were expected to host them at your house (!)."
That very much differs with social class and location. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visiting_card for the elaborate social conventions which developed amongst the European and American aristocracy regarding visits to the home.
That very much differs with social class and location. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visiting_card for the elaborate social conventions which developed amongst the European and American aristocracy regarding visits to the home.
I live in very rural America, outside of cell coverage and the neighbors turn up all the time to talk. And these are good conversations. There has never been spam or sales or the like that has turned up at my door.
Meanwhile the land line gets about 2 spam messages a day, and 1 real call a month. And being the owner of an LLC seems to mean my cell gets about 5 spam calls a day. The ringers stay off, and I still hate the phone.
Meanwhile the land line gets about 2 spam messages a day, and 1 real call a month. And being the owner of an LLC seems to mean my cell gets about 5 spam calls a day. The ringers stay off, and I still hate the phone.
> "No one should ever be able to interrupt me, absolutely ever" is a disturbingly entitled and modern take.
I think you're exaggerating it, it's more just that interrupting people is considered rude because we have so many less intrusive means of communicating now. If you want my attention, right now, no forewarning, you should probably have a good reason unless we have the kind of relationship where I expect out-of-the-blue calls and you know my schedule.
> Not too long ago, it was perfectly fine for people to turn up at your house unannounced, to pay you a visit, for no reason in particular other than to engage socially and you were expected to host them at your house (!).
Yeah... because we didn't have cell phones. And it sucked. Especially with socially clueless people that didn't have good boundaries. I remember having to play that "hide from the windows until they go away game" as a kid because an obnoxious neighbor would tie up way too much of your time unless you were blunt to the point of being rude; and well, you don't really want to do that if you live next to people right? I'm glad that practically never happens anymore because the norm is you don't bang on peoples door.
> Surely we can deal with the very occasional call from someone that wants 5 minutes of your time, no?
Well, sure, but they can text first right? "I need 5 minutes, are you busy at the moment?" Solved.
I think you're exaggerating it, it's more just that interrupting people is considered rude because we have so many less intrusive means of communicating now. If you want my attention, right now, no forewarning, you should probably have a good reason unless we have the kind of relationship where I expect out-of-the-blue calls and you know my schedule.
> Not too long ago, it was perfectly fine for people to turn up at your house unannounced, to pay you a visit, for no reason in particular other than to engage socially and you were expected to host them at your house (!).
Yeah... because we didn't have cell phones. And it sucked. Especially with socially clueless people that didn't have good boundaries. I remember having to play that "hide from the windows until they go away game" as a kid because an obnoxious neighbor would tie up way too much of your time unless you were blunt to the point of being rude; and well, you don't really want to do that if you live next to people right? I'm glad that practically never happens anymore because the norm is you don't bang on peoples door.
> Surely we can deal with the very occasional call from someone that wants 5 minutes of your time, no?
Well, sure, but they can text first right? "I need 5 minutes, are you busy at the moment?" Solved.
You are quite right.
Especially in a work setting I have seen many times where email discussions or message discussion go overboard with lots of misunderstandings, heated feelings etc and once you get on the phone with the other party you solve the issue in just minutes.
It's easy to use harsh language in text, but on the phone things usually calms down. It's also less error prone as in a phone discussion the feedback loop is truly real-time vs messages/slack/email.
You can also better hear and sense the feelings of the other party.
Especially in a work setting I have seen many times where email discussions or message discussion go overboard with lots of misunderstandings, heated feelings etc and once you get on the phone with the other party you solve the issue in just minutes.
It's easy to use harsh language in text, but on the phone things usually calms down. It's also less error prone as in a phone discussion the feedback loop is truly real-time vs messages/slack/email.
You can also better hear and sense the feelings of the other party.
Strange, since often I find people use the phone simply to avoid committing anything to writing and to cover up ignorance with ambiguity, which is more obvious in an email.
‘Not too long ago, it was perfectly fine for people to turn up at your house unannounced, to pay you a visit, for no reason in particular other than to engage socially and you were expected to host them at your house (!).’
Two thoughts come to mind. First, the effort required for somebody to turn up at your house ensures that this would happen much less frequently than the relatively costless telephone call. Second, some folk probably hate phone calls more than in-person conversations.
Two thoughts come to mind. First, the effort required for somebody to turn up at your house ensures that this would happen much less frequently than the relatively costless telephone call. Second, some folk probably hate phone calls more than in-person conversations.
> And yes, if you're ill but can't be arsed to call your NHS GP, then you're clearly not sick and shouldn't be tying up already strained public resources.
Doesn't the NHS provide an app to do this exact thing asynchronously? Those apps are ubiquitous across the EU.
Doesn't the NHS provide an app to do this exact thing asynchronously? Those apps are ubiquitous across the EU.
It depends on your practice. Mine has booking appointments and messaging currently disabled, which is annoying, but I imagine it must be to overcapacity.
> > And yes, if you're ill but can't be arsed to call your NHS GP, then you're clearly not sick and shouldn't be tying up already strained public resources
> Doesn't the NHS provide an app to do this exact thing asynchronously?
It does. I book appointments directly through the NHS app (have done twice in the last few weeks, in fact). Back in 2017 when the article was written things were almost certainly a bit different, though that feels about right for when I would've first been booking online using the Patient Access app.
> Doesn't the NHS provide an app to do this exact thing asynchronously?
It does. I book appointments directly through the NHS app (have done twice in the last few weeks, in fact). Back in 2017 when the article was written things were almost certainly a bit different, though that feels about right for when I would've first been booking online using the Patient Access app.
To paraphrase your take: "This is not a problem because it is not a problem for me."
The original piece just seems so anxious.
A better title would almost be 'Telephones make me anxious' because I don't think they hate the technology itself.
A better title would almost be 'Telephones make me anxious' because I don't think they hate the technology itself.
I hate telephones too but disagree that it’s only the medium that’s the problem. There are too many bureaucratic processes for everything and they’re all too complicated to deal with.
I quit having a phone number a while ago. Yes there are many walls I am running into, but usually nothing a annoying email or renting a temporary phone number can't solve.
Well except hundreds of online services that heavily depend on phone numbers (for pseudo security) I simply refuse to use.
However life definitely is better with less unsolicited distractions.
Well except hundreds of online services that heavily depend on phone numbers (for pseudo security) I simply refuse to use.
However life definitely is better with less unsolicited distractions.
I believe I have Telephone Phobia too! I have decided on a Voice-Call free life for quite a while. I even have a website at https://phone.wtf
Feel free to use it or adapt it your need.
I've been recently working with recruiters, and while they're nice people that are generally pleasant to chat with on the phone, I've generally found their insistence to use the phone for things that could easily be handled asynchronously very annoying.
I mean, if we need to have a conversation sure, let's talk, but if they're just trying to feel out if I'm interested in a role, just email me the job description. I don't want to talk with like 10 people a day and tell 9 of them I'm not interested. As most coder's know, it's not so much the interruption itself that's bad, it's the context switch, and/or the anxiety of it. (To be honest this is why I also prefer to pick up my food orders rather than have them be delivered -- I don't really like being "on call" in that sense)
Most of my friend's and family just do a "is now a cool time to call?" thing for casual conversations. I think that's really the best approach.
Also, while I don't feel an "entitlement" in terms of demanding nobody calls me, I do get annoyed when people feel entitled to a prompt response if I'm not expecting to hear from them. A lot of times I like to stash my phone in another room so it's not a distraction; but some people get really salty if you don't reply in an hour or two.
I mean, if we need to have a conversation sure, let's talk, but if they're just trying to feel out if I'm interested in a role, just email me the job description. I don't want to talk with like 10 people a day and tell 9 of them I'm not interested. As most coder's know, it's not so much the interruption itself that's bad, it's the context switch, and/or the anxiety of it. (To be honest this is why I also prefer to pick up my food orders rather than have them be delivered -- I don't really like being "on call" in that sense)
Most of my friend's and family just do a "is now a cool time to call?" thing for casual conversations. I think that's really the best approach.
Also, while I don't feel an "entitlement" in terms of demanding nobody calls me, I do get annoyed when people feel entitled to a prompt response if I'm not expecting to hear from them. A lot of times I like to stash my phone in another room so it's not a distraction; but some people get really salty if you don't reply in an hour or two.
Working in a call center for 2 years made me have an almost PTSD-like reaction to phone calls (not sure how else to describe it). I just stopped answering the phone. The people I care about know they can text me any time and I will respond promptly. Antiquated businesses requiring phone calls will not get my money.
He mentions spam callers being a problem, and something that has basically solved this for me is the Google call screen feature
https://www.theverge.com/22792060/call-screening-android-12-...
This video shows it clearly in a real demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R04GxUr6ibM
You can easily screen people with the text to speech and block spammers without picking up.
https://www.theverge.com/22792060/call-screening-android-12-...
This video shows it clearly in a real demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R04GxUr6ibM
You can easily screen people with the text to speech and block spammers without picking up.
> [...] Only then would the authenticated caller be passed through to me. Of course, such a protocol does not require a physical secretary. The job could be done by a virtual secretary, an app on my phone. And yet this is not how telephones work.
Well you could implement a virtual secretary with Twilio incoming call webhooks or some similar service. How it works is up to you.
A transcription streaming service would be nice. Think of a webhook but based on some streaming protocol (websocket?) instead of HTTP requests. I'm not aware of any commercial or free API that supports this.
Well you could implement a virtual secretary with Twilio incoming call webhooks or some similar service. How it works is up to you.
A transcription streaming service would be nice. Think of a webhook but based on some streaming protocol (websocket?) instead of HTTP requests. I'm not aware of any commercial or free API that supports this.
I run a 3 year old install of 3CX on a public IP; last year i got tired of the weird spam calls coming in on my 15 year old phone number i route through the pbx; so i set up a simple IVR. Each phone i have connected to my extension does a quick "blip", the first part of a ring, so i added a second of silence to the ringtones on phones that don't automatically go into DND. I get the flash of a notification that someone has dialed my public phone number, but unless they actually know who i am and push the number the IVR says, they get routed to the operator, who is never there and just records a voicemail, that i can't access. I can see a log of all calls, obviously, so i don't miss calls, but i also avoid 99.9% of all spam, ever. I can't even think of the last time i got a spam call on that number routed to a phone i can answer.
my VoIP line costs ~$23/month, the PBX is nominally free (3CX software didn't cost anything and i don't pay for rackspace/VMs at the datacenter i use for it), but it could be hosted anywhere. the best part of a public IP PBX (and 3cx in particular) is that you can have your most common contacts download the app and scan a QR code, and now you have presence, texting, voicemails, etc on a "secure line" that never goes out on any real phone network[0]. We don't use this feature anymore, but prior to the lockdowns in 2020 it was a nearly daily thing while we commuted or whatever. Now if we need to call we use Matrix or just regular cellphone calls.
[0] this also works for children who don't need or want a SIM enabled phone with all that entails. Kids can call grandma on an app that doesn't require a phone number to register for...
my VoIP line costs ~$23/month, the PBX is nominally free (3CX software didn't cost anything and i don't pay for rackspace/VMs at the datacenter i use for it), but it could be hosted anywhere. the best part of a public IP PBX (and 3cx in particular) is that you can have your most common contacts download the app and scan a QR code, and now you have presence, texting, voicemails, etc on a "secure line" that never goes out on any real phone network[0]. We don't use this feature anymore, but prior to the lockdowns in 2020 it was a nearly daily thing while we commuted or whatever. Now if we need to call we use Matrix or just regular cellphone calls.
[0] this also works for children who don't need or want a SIM enabled phone with all that entails. Kids can call grandma on an app that doesn't require a phone number to register for...
I don't call anyone and don't answer any call, unless it's urgent or wife/kids.
If somebody wants to talk with me, text me or voice message. Telephone blocks me and burns my time which i may or may not be willing to burn. So people just calling me while they are on the treadmill or on the train, or trying to sell me something, I simply don't accept it. Async communication is much better, and when sync is a must, we can still ask via other channels if the other part is able to talk.
If somebody wants to talk with me, text me or voice message. Telephone blocks me and burns my time which i may or may not be willing to burn. So people just calling me while they are on the treadmill or on the train, or trying to sell me something, I simply don't accept it. Async communication is much better, and when sync is a must, we can still ask via other channels if the other part is able to talk.
Telephones and asynchronous communication have very different use cases. There are many situations where asynchronous is much better, but when some complexity comes in and would require lots of exchanges, a phone call is much more effective. I often picked up the phone and called someone after exchanging several messages (e-mails, text messages or anything else), solving the issue MUCH faster than if it would have been by message exchange. Most people also can speak much faster than they type.
Of course, there are problems with the phone system itself (let's just mention robocalls), but it's just a matter of time before you'll get robomessages on any kind of messaging platform too, although maybe they will be easier to filter out. Robocalls do happen on phone because that's the platform where most people are reachable (and because it's easily doable on scale).
And there are problems with call centers having completely incompetent people answering. But this doesn't mean that the problem is inherent to the phone...
Finally, phone is one of the few really interoperable telecommunication systems (like e-mail is, but mobile messaging platforms like Whatsapp/Signal/... are NOT, at least not until the EU will oblige them to, which is planned). Imagine if you could only receive calls from people using the same phone brand as you, or anything similar...
Of course, there are problems with the phone system itself (let's just mention robocalls), but it's just a matter of time before you'll get robomessages on any kind of messaging platform too, although maybe they will be easier to filter out. Robocalls do happen on phone because that's the platform where most people are reachable (and because it's easily doable on scale).
And there are problems with call centers having completely incompetent people answering. But this doesn't mean that the problem is inherent to the phone...
Finally, phone is one of the few really interoperable telecommunication systems (like e-mail is, but mobile messaging platforms like Whatsapp/Signal/... are NOT, at least not until the EU will oblige them to, which is planned). Imagine if you could only receive calls from people using the same phone brand as you, or anything similar...
Reminds me of the quotation attributed to Edgar Degas, who it is said was in a conversation with Jean-Louis Forain that was interrupted by the state-of-the-art technology that the latter had had installed in his home: "So that's what the telephone is? Someone rings a bell and you hurriedly attend to it like a servant?"
I don't hate telephones so much as I hate POTS. Unauthenticated, unencrypted, easily caller-id-spoofed POTS is the worst. POTS is the whole reason why SWATting has been a problem for years now. At this point you shouldn't be able to call in a threat that results in a police raid, unless there is some way to verify your identity.
This is incorrect.
Easy access to SIP trunks is the problem, SIP trunks that don't enforce a connection between ANI, BTN and Caller ID.
The telephone network was never designed for non trusted parties to have access to the signaling system for the PSTN.
Neither analog lines, nor TDM ones need much in the way of authentication, or encryption - because of that tie to a physical line, and a physical nexus.
Very little if any spam/swat calls are coming from the analog side of the PSTN, a marginally larger but near zero amount comes from traditional TDM services, the bulk of it is shoddy SIP carriers.
Easy access to SIP trunks is the problem, SIP trunks that don't enforce a connection between ANI, BTN and Caller ID.
The telephone network was never designed for non trusted parties to have access to the signaling system for the PSTN.
Neither analog lines, nor TDM ones need much in the way of authentication, or encryption - because of that tie to a physical line, and a physical nexus.
Very little if any spam/swat calls are coming from the analog side of the PSTN, a marginally larger but near zero amount comes from traditional TDM services, the bulk of it is shoddy SIP carriers.
Appreciate the technical correction!
> Yes, Barclays’ internet presence insists you call them, and then when you call them, they try very hard to move you back to the internet. I hate telephones. Barclays hates telephones. Why are we doing this to ourselves?
Absolutely spot on, and brilliant, and funny if not also sad.
Absolutely spot on, and brilliant, and funny if not also sad.
I don't hate telephones but I do hate Signaling System 7, spammers and robocalls.
SS7 it's a joke on security. Teleco guys know that for sure.
Just like TCP and IP are a joke on security, but sure.
Discussed at the time:
I hate telephones - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15677560 - Nov 2017 (431 comments)
I hate telephones - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15677560 - Nov 2017 (431 comments)
A telephone is a device that allows anyone anywhere in the world to make a bell ring in your house. -- Len Deighton (paraphrase from memory)
He preferred teletype, and had a teleprinter in his home. Maybe still does.
He preferred teletype, and had a teleprinter in his home. Maybe still does.
..same, and I also hate/fear e-mail. It is physically painful for me to communicate with people. These communication channels are way too easy to use to add work to an already busy schedule.
It should cost a small amount of money every time you called/emailed someone.
It should cost a small amount of money every time you called/emailed someone.
> It is physically painful for me to communicate with people.
I don't understand this. Are you autistic by any chance?
I don't understand this. Are you autistic by any chance?
Nobody ever calls me, besides mom.
The problem for me is the asymmetry: Someone interrupts whatever I'm doing with an unrelated random topic and wants me to make a decision or answer questions, with basically no time to switch contexts or think. This is infuriating to me.
At least with work, friends and family, for the last several years I've not even really used the "phone". All my calls are either scheduled conference calls, or adhoc calls initiated after a text/chat message.
It's just contractors, dentists, daycare, stores etc that still use the phone primarily. Hopefully they'll all join the 2010's within the next decade or two.