How friendships change in adulthood(theatlantic.com)
theatlantic.com
How friendships change in adulthood
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/10/how-friendships-change-over-time-in-adulthood/411466/
264 comments
Definitely on this. I enjoy just hanging out and having a beer, but also painting a room, building a porch, doing a little demolition, taking our kids camping together. Time doesn't have to be a zero sum game. (And it’s the same with a lot of stuff— you don’t have to stop parenting to cook or clean or garden, do that stuff with the kids!)
Another aspect I think is how much you plan things in advance, and how willing the people in your circle are to do stuff last minute. One of my groups is some neighborhood dads and every week or so they're like "hey, tonight or tomorrow?" and then it's a hang for whoever can make it, with no expectations or hurt feelings because it wasn’t possible to find a weeks-away date that magically worked for everyone’s calendars only to have half of them cancel at the last minute anyway. You need people receptive to this for it to work, but it has that fluidity of college dorm socializing once it gets going.
Another aspect I think is how much you plan things in advance, and how willing the people in your circle are to do stuff last minute. One of my groups is some neighborhood dads and every week or so they're like "hey, tonight or tomorrow?" and then it's a hang for whoever can make it, with no expectations or hurt feelings because it wasn’t possible to find a weeks-away date that magically worked for everyone’s calendars only to have half of them cancel at the last minute anyway. You need people receptive to this for it to work, but it has that fluidity of college dorm socializing once it gets going.
"I enjoy just hanging out and having a beer, but also painting a room, building a porch, doing a little demolition"
Perhaps that's the differece: specialization. More contractors and take-out meals mean less working with friends.
Friends are good for unspecialized labor, but when you get into skilled labor it falls apart. The one plumber friend will get swamped with requests, and the quantum physicist may not find an opportunity to reciprocate.
Perhaps that's the differece: specialization. More contractors and take-out meals mean less working with friends.
Friends are good for unspecialized labor, but when you get into skilled labor it falls apart. The one plumber friend will get swamped with requests, and the quantum physicist may not find an opportunity to reciprocate.
> Friends are good for unspecialized labor, but when you get into skilled labor it falls apart.
I wonder if this alone holds a lot of explanatory power for why people in many increasingly developed countries tend to have increasingly fewer close friends in their personal lives. Labor gets increasingly skilled and specialized (and requiring facilities, supplies, and support staff owned by large companies) leaving fewer opportunities to directly help people who live next door. And skilled/specialized labor pays more, so people have the money to just hire out any help they need.
Thus fewer friendships form around a natural need for help from neighbors and the ability to meet such needs -- because both have decreased significantly. And along with less needing/helping, human connection and trust also suffer significantly.
In the past, local community groups, especially churches and social clubs, helped significantly with fostering human connection; but those also are suffering significantly.
I wonder if this alone holds a lot of explanatory power for why people in many increasingly developed countries tend to have increasingly fewer close friends in their personal lives. Labor gets increasingly skilled and specialized (and requiring facilities, supplies, and support staff owned by large companies) leaving fewer opportunities to directly help people who live next door. And skilled/specialized labor pays more, so people have the money to just hire out any help they need.
Thus fewer friendships form around a natural need for help from neighbors and the ability to meet such needs -- because both have decreased significantly. And along with less needing/helping, human connection and trust also suffer significantly.
In the past, local community groups, especially churches and social clubs, helped significantly with fostering human connection; but those also are suffering significantly.
But painting a room or mudding drywall or hacking down a wall? These are not really that specialized, are they? Or like, they're skills that can taught at the basic level with a few minutes of instruction and oversight.
The fact that more labor has been specialized makes it harder to maintain a critical mass of unspecialized, informal labor.
If someone helps you paint, it might be months or years before you have an opportunity to really reciprocate.
And simple things have been specialized quite a bit. To do a good job painting (by modern standards) you need to prep the wall surface. It might be cracked or uneven or have bad (or out-of-style) texturing. Then you need to texture and paint, which is going to work out better with the right equipment.
Meal preparation is largely done today before the kitchen. Trimming and slicing vegetables, washing and filtering grains, cleaning and butchering animals, grinding herbs and spices, sauce and broth making, fermenting, etc., are all done already by specialists and machines. A modern dinner party at your home is closer to meeting at a restaurant for a purely social occasion than it is to traditional meal preparation.
If someone helps you paint, it might be months or years before you have an opportunity to really reciprocate.
And simple things have been specialized quite a bit. To do a good job painting (by modern standards) you need to prep the wall surface. It might be cracked or uneven or have bad (or out-of-style) texturing. Then you need to texture and paint, which is going to work out better with the right equipment.
Meal preparation is largely done today before the kitchen. Trimming and slicing vegetables, washing and filtering grains, cleaning and butchering animals, grinding herbs and spices, sauce and broth making, fermenting, etc., are all done already by specialists and machines. A modern dinner party at your home is closer to meeting at a restaurant for a purely social occasion than it is to traditional meal preparation.
I agree. Basic home ownership skills like plumbing, wiring, and painting aren’t “specialized. I’ve bonded with friends and neighbors over such things.
Ah, home ownership. For so many people these days, all of those "work on the house" bonding activities they saw their parents doing are unavailable because they don't own a home and don't expect to.
I grew up with seemingly all my extended family working on their houses one way or another. I saw a lot of it. Plumbing, electrics, knocking down and building new walls, repairing floors, plastering, painting, wallpapering, carpeting, fitting windows, pouring concrete, mixing cement, gardening and remodelling the garden, erecting sheds, countless other things and that's just some basics that popped into my head.
Many of those involved a team of extended family and friends working together on a project.
As an adult I've rarely had the opportunity to do anything like that, and certainly never anywhere I lived myself, due to renting and most people I knew renting for most of it.
Even putting up a small shelf or painting a wall have been against the rules at most places. I don't own a drill because there's nothing at home to use it on. So I have neither the skills nor a friendship group that tends to develop with that sort of thing
It's not from lack of interest though. I miss it, having seen so much as a child that I've been unable to even dabble with as an adult.
It's one reason I rent a small office for work. Unlike homes, some commercial leases expect you to do things like put up wall furniture, paint as you likr, replace carpets and doors and so on. There are limits to that but not as limiting as homes in my experience.
I grew up with seemingly all my extended family working on their houses one way or another. I saw a lot of it. Plumbing, electrics, knocking down and building new walls, repairing floors, plastering, painting, wallpapering, carpeting, fitting windows, pouring concrete, mixing cement, gardening and remodelling the garden, erecting sheds, countless other things and that's just some basics that popped into my head.
Many of those involved a team of extended family and friends working together on a project.
As an adult I've rarely had the opportunity to do anything like that, and certainly never anywhere I lived myself, due to renting and most people I knew renting for most of it.
Even putting up a small shelf or painting a wall have been against the rules at most places. I don't own a drill because there's nothing at home to use it on. So I have neither the skills nor a friendship group that tends to develop with that sort of thing
It's not from lack of interest though. I miss it, having seen so much as a child that I've been unable to even dabble with as an adult.
It's one reason I rent a small office for work. Unlike homes, some commercial leases expect you to do things like put up wall furniture, paint as you likr, replace carpets and doors and so on. There are limits to that but not as limiting as homes in my experience.
I really do sympathize with people who can’t own a home, it’s terrible. My mortgage is 1300/month right between Baltimore and DC so it’s not like I’m out in the cut or anything. I’ve never experienced the “homes are too expensive to buy” situation, but maybe I’m just incredibly fortunate.
Post-2008 I think a big issue is down payments. Yes with 1% interest and 25 years you can turn a massive principal into reasonable payments, but how do you come up with 5% of it to get started?
It's hard to save tens of thousands of dollars unless you're lucky in your career or have a second earner dedicated just to that (and no school loans or other debt to service). Other than that you're waiting for a windfall or reliant on your parents re-mortgaging their place to give you your down payment.
I got lucky with my company's series A. But I know a lot of people whose parents helped them. And a bunch more whose parents can't— those people are still renting in their late thirties, waiting for a bus that may never come.
It's hard to save tens of thousands of dollars unless you're lucky in your career or have a second earner dedicated just to that (and no school loans or other debt to service). Other than that you're waiting for a windfall or reliant on your parents re-mortgaging their place to give you your down payment.
I got lucky with my company's series A. But I know a lot of people whose parents helped them. And a bunch more whose parents can't— those people are still renting in their late thirties, waiting for a bus that may never come.
> I’ve never experienced the “homes are too expensive to buy” situation, but maybe I’m just incredibly fortunate.
You are.
You are.
I mean I could do that stuff but it’s not very enjoyable for me so I’d rather just pay someone else to do it (since I can afford it). I would guess many people feel the same.
Fair, and I can afford it too. But I also have the (modest) time available to do some things myself, and YouTube is a stupendous resource for basic stuff like how to plumb a sink or snake a drain or fix a water softener seal or wire a GFCI or any number of hundreds of other things you might want to know.
It's no judgment on those who feel differently, but I find value in picking up random skills and tools and really appreciate along the way the chance to break a sweat with friends and family over these types of situations.
And sometimes it really is a major savings— I spent ~$600 last year on materials and tool rentals that saved me what likely would have been a $10k plumbing visit (broken drain pipe under a concrete floor).
It's no judgment on those who feel differently, but I find value in picking up random skills and tools and really appreciate along the way the chance to break a sweat with friends and family over these types of situations.
And sometimes it really is a major savings— I spent ~$600 last year on materials and tool rentals that saved me what likely would have been a $10k plumbing visit (broken drain pipe under a concrete floor).
"The friendships where people rely on one another for assistance" and "'let's catch up' friends" would appear to be, according to Aristotle's analysis, friendships of utility and of pleasure, respectively. These are not bad, but there is a higher, more perfect, more durable form of friendship, the friendship of virtue [0], rooted in a common goal. Marriage is such a friendship, for example. It is not surprising, then, that friendships of pleasure or utility should more easily wane, while friendships of virtue are more lasting.
[0] https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2016/06/16819/
[0] https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2016/06/16819/
Glad to see someone say something good about marriage. Elite media is so negative about it these days. We are stuck in cliches about how historically it was just a strategic play for money and power and it never made sense as the core friendship around which your life revolves.
Maybe marriage is a nuisance if your life's ambition is to get an essay into The New Yorker, but if you have more pedestrian interests in family, it can be the best.
Maybe marriage is a nuisance if your life's ambition is to get an essay into The New Yorker, but if you have more pedestrian interests in family, it can be the best.
> Maybe marriage is a nuisance if your life's ambition is to get an essay into The New Yorker, but if you have more pedestrian interests in family, it can be the best.
A disproportionately large portion of journalists for national outlets live in Brooklyn New York, which explains their biased view of the world.
A disproportionately large portion of journalists for national outlets live in Brooklyn New York, which explains their biased view of the world.
I just find it interesting how we believe we are so much more advanced than our ancestors and know so much more, but when it comes to living "The Good Life" they were still talking about the same problems we are struggling with in modern society.
Maybe overall we shouldn't be so quick to dismiss the wisdom of the ancients in favor of our modern obsession with data.
Maybe overall we shouldn't be so quick to dismiss the wisdom of the ancients in favor of our modern obsession with data.
Natural and formal sciences + resulting from them technology is indeed more advanced.
Everything else? Not so much; we are, after all, still just people.
Everything else? Not so much; we are, after all, still just people.
Is a friendship of virtue a friendship? That seems to violate the idea that friendships are low-commitment and non-binding relationships.
I would define my wife as my wife and friend, because our status as friends could become shaky but she would still be my wife. Similarly a long time business partner could be someone I identify as a friend or not. Those are both relationships rooted in a common goal, but I think Aristotle's definition of friendship is a stretch here. I think the wisdom of "don't go into business with your friends" is more relevant in my life.
I would define my wife as my wife and friend, because our status as friends could become shaky but she would still be my wife. Similarly a long time business partner could be someone I identify as a friend or not. Those are both relationships rooted in a common goal, but I think Aristotle's definition of friendship is a stretch here. I think the wisdom of "don't go into business with your friends" is more relevant in my life.
> That seems to violate the idea that friendships are low-commitment and non-binding relationships.
Why is friendship low-commitment and non-binding. In the Western world, this is an aberration. For most of Western history, friendship was often considered more permanent and requiring more commitment than even marriage. It was seen as a life-long arrangement, with duties between friends, etc. Slighting one's friend was the start of many bitter bitter disputes that lasted generations.
Why is friendship low-commitment and non-binding. In the Western world, this is an aberration. For most of Western history, friendship was often considered more permanent and requiring more commitment than even marriage. It was seen as a life-long arrangement, with duties between friends, etc. Slighting one's friend was the start of many bitter bitter disputes that lasted generations.
> Is a friendship of virtue a friendship?
Yes -- and it is plainly the highest form of friendship as it is the closest to dissolving the individual into a greater whole.
Yes -- and it is plainly the highest form of friendship as it is the closest to dissolving the individual into a greater whole.
Sounds like something I would hear at a google all hands or something.
> the idea that friendships are low-commitment and non-binding relationships
Is that your idea of what a friendship is ? Friendship to me means far deeper than that.
Is that your idea of what a friendship is ? Friendship to me means far deeper than that.
Would you be ok with a friend getting mad at you for not texting them back fast enough? What about wanting to go to counseling with you to discuss why you have been arguing more recently?
Yes 100% the reason why I need and love my friends is because those relationships do not have the weight of expectation that other relationships do.
Yes 100% the reason why I need and love my friends is because those relationships do not have the weight of expectation that other relationships do.
> seems to be very modern, very Western
I don't think this is true at all. I'm not from a Western culture originally, and my friends (who i love) across a whole slice of society (from bus drivers to tech executives) have sort of diverged. Some of them always make time no matter what. Others, despite being super helpful when they can, 100% put other priorities over friendship first. Pretty sure that's not just my case and not really limited to the West at all.
I don't think this is true at all. I'm not from a Western culture originally, and my friends (who i love) across a whole slice of society (from bus drivers to tech executives) have sort of diverged. Some of them always make time no matter what. Others, despite being super helpful when they can, 100% put other priorities over friendship first. Pretty sure that's not just my case and not really limited to the West at all.
"That is always the way with stay-at-homes. If they like something in their own village they take it for a thing universal and eternal, though perhaps it was never heard of five miles away; if they dislike something, they say it is a local, backward, provincial convention, though, in fact, it may be the law of nations."
We went from one income households to two. A lot of dads discovered that mom was actually doing quite a lot of the work and the not-shitty ones started doing their share. Hard to meet up with the lads when you're consoling a sick kid.
In spite of that, women have had larger and stronger social networks than men for decades/centuries (if not all of human history). Now, if anything, the gap is narrowing and women are becoming lonely at a rapid rate.
Perhaps more evidence that catching up with the lads for a pint is less valuable than bringing over a casserole for a friend with a sick kid.
Perhaps more evidence that catching up with the lads for a pint is less valuable than bringing over a casserole for a friend with a sick kid.
True, though there's a lot going on. Urban design used to force more chance interactions and we're more physically isolated now, among other things. Sit next to someone on the bus or walk alongside them to the well? Strike up a conversation (unless you're British in which case I guess you sit on the bus in silence). Drive alongside them on the way to the grocery store? Not much chance to say hi there.
Citation really needed for the centuries claim. Both friendships and family structures changed a lot more in time then people assume.
Is the gap narrowing because womens' social networks are weakening or because men are forming better peer groups?
You are right, showing up to help or at least to anything they invite you to (even a simple lunch) is very important to continuity.
One of the reasons I won't read these articles - I don't want the content to become an excuse/prescription for me losing touch with friends.
Also who made the writer an expert? (May not apply to the author of this particular article, but I am generally skeptical).
One of the reasons I won't read these articles - I don't want the content to become an excuse/prescription for me losing touch with friends.
Also who made the writer an expert? (May not apply to the author of this particular article, but I am generally skeptical).
This is so spot on. I feel like I am such a shitty friend especially after having witnessed my friends go above and beyond for when we needed their help without even being asked for it.
My wife's family has a real knack for working out what each other need, basically asking each other how they're going and really keeping a finger on the pulse when listening to the responses.
It's an art form for sure, but working out who needs assistance and in what form makes it really easy to provide it.
It's an art form for sure, but working out who needs assistance and in what form makes it really easy to provide it.
No worries, you can always find time and opportunities
Oh totally. Coming across these friends in my life made me realize I had to really work on my empathy and selflessness!
>The sad part is that it doesn't have to be this way. The notion that friendship is something you make time for (to the detriment of your other pursuits) seems to be very modern, very Western and an absolutely terrible idea.
Why wouldn't it though? Ultimately speaking time is a finite resource for an individual. If one's pursuits or responsibilities do not align with the pursuits of your friend, then why wouldn't one need pick between expending one's time with said friend vs other callings?
Why wouldn't it though? Ultimately speaking time is a finite resource for an individual. If one's pursuits or responsibilities do not align with the pursuits of your friend, then why wouldn't one need pick between expending one's time with said friend vs other callings?
I guess it makes more sense when you consider reciprocity.
Pouring your finite and valuable time into assisting a friend achieve their goals implies that they will, at least to some extent, help you with yours. It doesn't matter if they're aligned as long as you understand one another.
Whereas with the "let's catch up" friends, the implicit agreement is that by making you sacrifice for the relationship, you get the right to make them sacrifice.
I guess the latter is better than nothing, as it beats being alone, but an optimising brain leads one towards putting in minimum effort and letting the relationship decay to the point of just being alive.
Pouring your finite and valuable time into assisting a friend achieve their goals implies that they will, at least to some extent, help you with yours. It doesn't matter if they're aligned as long as you understand one another.
Whereas with the "let's catch up" friends, the implicit agreement is that by making you sacrifice for the relationship, you get the right to make them sacrifice.
I guess the latter is better than nothing, as it beats being alone, but an optimising brain leads one towards putting in minimum effort and letting the relationship decay to the point of just being alive.
I don’t think what you’re saying is necessarily wrong, but you’re simply not addressing the scarcity of time.
I have friends that I would do basically anything for, and they would do basically anything for me, and this has been proven many times over throughout our friendships. But being there when they need you (or vice versa) isn’t what constitutes most of the relationship, most of it just just normal friend activities. Additionally, the entirety of the time devoted to the relationship is time you cannot devote to something else, no matter how much benefit you derive from the friendship.
Time devoted to relationships with my friends has certainly dwindled a little for me over time. I’m still there for them if they need me, but I devote much less time to socialising with them, because there are simply too many other things in my life that take priority over that. Because again, not matter how positive and beneficial your friendships are, hanging out with your buddies simply isn’t going to take priority over the needs of your spouse/children/career very often.
I have friends that I would do basically anything for, and they would do basically anything for me, and this has been proven many times over throughout our friendships. But being there when they need you (or vice versa) isn’t what constitutes most of the relationship, most of it just just normal friend activities. Additionally, the entirety of the time devoted to the relationship is time you cannot devote to something else, no matter how much benefit you derive from the friendship.
Time devoted to relationships with my friends has certainly dwindled a little for me over time. I’m still there for them if they need me, but I devote much less time to socialising with them, because there are simply too many other things in my life that take priority over that. Because again, not matter how positive and beneficial your friendships are, hanging out with your buddies simply isn’t going to take priority over the needs of your spouse/children/career very often.
I'm not sure I see the time spent with "let's catch up" friends as a sacrifice. I find it as a time to break out of my routine, get a fresh perspective on the things I'm doing, and offer the same to the friend I'm meeting. It's like a mini-vacation to go to dinner with someone I don't usually see.
The "always there to help" friends are valuable to me as well, but they're a larger part of my every day life, more like extended family, and so usually can't get me that "get out of my life and look back in" sort of interaction I can have with friends I have to break routine to go see.
The "always there to help" friends are valuable to me as well, but they're a larger part of my every day life, more like extended family, and so usually can't get me that "get out of my life and look back in" sort of interaction I can have with friends I have to break routine to go see.
I think the parent commenter actually answered your question why wouldn’t.
We like things to be "fair" and to have mutually beneficial relationships in our work life. On top of that we all struggle with being vulnerable so your idea of a friendship built on top of mutual reliance seems really difficult to pull off.
Far more likely is you needing to accept that you will be doing most of the maintenance work around any of your adult friendships, and they might not have any "benefit" outside of being one of the few balms to existential dread.
Far more likely is you needing to accept that you will be doing most of the maintenance work around any of your adult friendships, and they might not have any "benefit" outside of being one of the few balms to existential dread.
Realistically, when would that happen with a middle class lifestyle?
When ny car broke down, I call my roadside assistance to get it towed and took Uber home when my wife was working.
When I need to move, I call movers. Same with home repairs. If I couldn’t cook for myself and assuming I wasn’t married (I am) I order in. I’m not saying having friends isn’t important for emotional reasons. But now, unless I lost my job and have lost my financial means, i usually “need” friends for emotional support.
That being said, when my wife had surgery a few years ago, I really leaned on her (and my friends through association). My wife knew I would be an emotional wreck and they came for emotional support.
When ny car broke down, I call my roadside assistance to get it towed and took Uber home when my wife was working.
When I need to move, I call movers. Same with home repairs. If I couldn’t cook for myself and assuming I wasn’t married (I am) I order in. I’m not saying having friends isn’t important for emotional reasons. But now, unless I lost my job and have lost my financial means, i usually “need” friends for emotional support.
That being said, when my wife had surgery a few years ago, I really leaned on her (and my friends through association). My wife knew I would be an emotional wreck and they came for emotional support.
> Somewhat counter-intuitively, doing simple things like giving a friend a lift when their car breaks down, providing them with meals when they're unable to cook for themselves or helping them move house actually cause you to value the relationship more.
Why do you find this counterintuitive?
Why do you find this counterintuitive?
That must be why we find it hard to maintain friendships these days. We mostly just buy the goods and services we want, and the results are often more convenient and better quality. Mutual aid and dependence seems less necessary, even if it's maybe good for the spirit.
My close friends with kids include their kids when visiting friends. We all love their kids. And we get to spend them with our friends.
It doesn't have to be that way, but my goodness, look at the transactional-mentalities on display below. It's sad.
> "let's catch up" friends seem to wither over time
In my experience, at some point there is nothing to talk about anymore, i have some of those long term friends but it's getting to the point where they come by my house, catch up in 10 minutes and then spent the rest of time in the couch on the phone.
In my experience, at some point there is nothing to talk about anymore, i have some of those long term friends but it's getting to the point where they come by my house, catch up in 10 minutes and then spent the rest of time in the couch on the phone.
I always feel like I'm outside looking in when people talk about making and keeping friends. I was make fun of a lot as a kid, moved around a lot, and then as a young adult I didn't prioritize making friends, thinking I'd have my whole life to make some. I didn't realize that people just stop making new friends after 30 (outside work).
I have a family and that's super nice, but I still never really experienced this. Reading about it just hurts. Sure, I had "friends"in college, but we don't keep in touch.
I have a family and that's super nice, but I still never really experienced this. Reading about it just hurts. Sure, I had "friends"in college, but we don't keep in touch.
> I didn't realize that people just stop making new friends after 30 (outside work)
Nah. This is just a self-made bubble. Even without any activity outside work, you can still meet friends' friend and family's friend. There's always new people to talk to.
I've made a lot of friends outside work since adulthood, from various sources. Just last week, I made a new friend at a mutual friend's party, and played a duet together. We've scheduled to play another next month.
Another friend of mine just made 11 new friends outside of work last month, as he joined a baseball amateur league.
Just go do what you enjoy, and talk to people. If you share a common interest, and have no big clash in personality, that's probably a budding friendship.
Nah. This is just a self-made bubble. Even without any activity outside work, you can still meet friends' friend and family's friend. There's always new people to talk to.
I've made a lot of friends outside work since adulthood, from various sources. Just last week, I made a new friend at a mutual friend's party, and played a duet together. We've scheduled to play another next month.
Another friend of mine just made 11 new friends outside of work last month, as he joined a baseball amateur league.
Just go do what you enjoy, and talk to people. If you share a common interest, and have no big clash in personality, that's probably a budding friendship.
I’m not sure you can adopt such a dismissive tone here. I mean, your whole premise is that you met a friend at a mutual friend’s dinner party. You seem to have something of an “engine” of friends available that allow a preponderance of socialization. I think many of us in our 30s don’t even have that.
Except almost anything you do can be the beginning of that engine. Joining sports team, hobbyist group for anything will lead you to meet people, through whom you either meet or hear about other events. Strong network effects once you get going but you do need to have time to show up consistently and in a good spot
Many sports teams don't build all that much of friendship outside of training and competitions. They are acquitances with no other investment.
The moment you get injured or sick, friendship is gone. Same goes for hobby groups.
The moment you get injured or sick, friendship is gone. Same goes for hobby groups.
This is a very cynical take and I would recommend some self reflection. I know for a fact you can make lifelong friends from shared interests. I’ve done it, I have friends who have done it. Maybe it’s harder for some but it is absolutely common.
I mean, I was member of sports teams. Sometimes lifelong friendship evolves, but it is not nearly automatic nor super frequent.
Way more likely is that when people stop going for whatever reason, the relationship ends. Getting injured or sick or having new kid and less time or whatever all means you disappear.
Way more likely is that when people stop going for whatever reason, the relationship ends. Getting injured or sick or having new kid and less time or whatever all means you disappear.
This is a function of your skill and desire not a deficiency of the social activity
What part of that observation is about a skill or desire? I mean, I am describing what I observed to happen to people around me. If too many of them are "not skilled enough", then maybe it is not just about individual failures.
That’s not my whole premise; just the latest example.
If there’s currently nobody at all (outside work and family), go out with coworkers. Invite their friends. Go hiking or skiing or something. There are tons of activities out there.
If there’s currently nobody at all (outside work and family), go out with coworkers. Invite their friends. Go hiking or skiing or something. There are tons of activities out there.
Remote work much? At my last job, everyone on my team lived at least 100 miles away.
I have to admit that I’ve never myself been in such a position. Even with work-from-home, I’m still within driving distance to most my coworkers. And I can see how living so sparsely from each other makes socialization difficult.
A friend of mine moved to a different country last year, and is in a similar situation: living and working far away from her team; no coworkers in her vicinity. So, now she mainly hang out with her new neighbors, and friends made from dancing class.
A friend of mine moved to a different country last year, and is in a similar situation: living and working far away from her team; no coworkers in her vicinity. So, now she mainly hang out with her new neighbors, and friends made from dancing class.
Find a meetup on meetup.com. It doesn't have to be something you care too much about, it can be a singles meetup, some sport you know how to play, book club, etc. A lot of people are there mostly to do social stuff. Think of it as a way to meet people, but you have to work on deepening the friendships by asking them to do other stuff outside of the meetup after talking to them a few times.
I'm a member of 102 groups on Meetup. Not sports, because I have never played any sport, but many tech groups, reading groups, and hiking groups. No singles groups, because I'm not looking to date and I'm not in my 20s anymore (and don't feel like paying membership fees).
I have been methodically taking turns trying all of their in-person events.
Hiking groups are dominated by retirees who have trouble relating to me socially. I have not found a reading club that meets IRL. The "philosophy meetup" is a bunch of 25-year-old crypto bro edgelords. I keep going to tech meetups, some for over a year, but everyone at them either goes with coworkers or is really apathetic and alienated.
I have been methodically taking turns trying all of their in-person events.
Hiking groups are dominated by retirees who have trouble relating to me socially. I have not found a reading club that meets IRL. The "philosophy meetup" is a bunch of 25-year-old crypto bro edgelords. I keep going to tech meetups, some for over a year, but everyone at them either goes with coworkers or is really apathetic and alienated.
> friend has a party
This doesn't help if you're trying to bootstrap from nothing.
> just join a sports league
I spent solid chunks of childhood being forced into sports programs when I at best had below-average physical abilities. I even tried one summer as an adult to play in a league and I discovered that the physical gap had just widened and widened and it just helped isolate me until I quit going.
It's really great that people find things like sports leagues or meetups useful for this, but none of it overlaps with my mostly solo activities.
Unfortunately, that's how it is if you don't share interest with the extroverted crowds: you're just stuck looking for scraps.
This doesn't help if you're trying to bootstrap from nothing.
> just join a sports league
I spent solid chunks of childhood being forced into sports programs when I at best had below-average physical abilities. I even tried one summer as an adult to play in a league and I discovered that the physical gap had just widened and widened and it just helped isolate me until I quit going.
It's really great that people find things like sports leagues or meetups useful for this, but none of it overlaps with my mostly solo activities.
Unfortunately, that's how it is if you don't share interest with the extroverted crowds: you're just stuck looking for scraps.
If you bootstrap from nothing, go from coworkers. Some of your coworkers will have some groups of doing something (skiing, hiking, music playing, etc.). Show you interest and get invited. There will be new people there.
There are also other events where you naturally meet people. I’m just throwing out some ideas, if case they are helpful.
For instance, taking group classes. My girlfriend made quite a few friends in her Muay Thai class.
Dog walking. My college friend recently adopted a dog, and has since known a lot of other dog keepers.
You can meet other computer people at conferences, too.
I myself is quite introverted, too. But being introverted doesn’t mean you are left with scraps. There are still occasions where interacting with other people is both necessary and natural. If you put yourself in those situations from time to time, you’ll find a few who fit your rhythm.
Another thing is to offer a helping hand to people. Owing each other favors is the most effective bonding agent in my experience. I have a personal rule of “always be helpful”, and I think that has earned me quite a few very earnest friendships, despite my being not very chatty at all.
There are also other events where you naturally meet people. I’m just throwing out some ideas, if case they are helpful.
For instance, taking group classes. My girlfriend made quite a few friends in her Muay Thai class.
Dog walking. My college friend recently adopted a dog, and has since known a lot of other dog keepers.
You can meet other computer people at conferences, too.
I myself is quite introverted, too. But being introverted doesn’t mean you are left with scraps. There are still occasions where interacting with other people is both necessary and natural. If you put yourself in those situations from time to time, you’ll find a few who fit your rhythm.
Another thing is to offer a helping hand to people. Owing each other favors is the most effective bonding agent in my experience. I have a personal rule of “always be helpful”, and I think that has earned me quite a few very earnest friendships, despite my being not very chatty at all.
I've often heard the "offer a helping hand" advice and made a habit of trying it with coworkers and acquaintances. I've learned, over the years, that many people are uncomfortable accepting casual favors from people they're not close to. And I mean pretty small favors, like offering car rides for people who don't drive or helping haul heavy stuff from Craigslist. I have now started to fight my tendency to offer help until I'm extra sure it's welcome.
It can be hard to make friends from interest based activities. If you only see someone while hiking or whatever they aren’t really your friend. You have to see them in more than one different context. Often for many of us it’s that jump from “activity acquaintance” to “friend” that proves very hard.
> I didn't realize that people just stop making new friends after 30 (outside work).
I think this might be a self fulfilling prophecy.
I’m 40 and I’m still making friends. I don’t see why there must be some sort of magical age limit.
Imagine there’s another one of you. Wouldn’t you want to be friends with them?
I think this might be a self fulfilling prophecy.
I’m 40 and I’m still making friends. I don’t see why there must be some sort of magical age limit.
Imagine there’s another one of you. Wouldn’t you want to be friends with them?
>Imagine there’s another one of you. Wouldn’t you want to be friends with them?
Holy shit, that's a really thought-provoking question.
I wonder how many others would answer "probably not".
Holy shit, that's a really thought-provoking question.
I wonder how many others would answer "probably not".
I wonder how many others would answer "probably not".
To me, this isn't about liking me, who wouldn't!
It's more about being identical. Even if a friend shares the same likes, interests, hobbies, they have a different view on it. Their brain thinks via a different process.
I don't want a mirror as a friend.
To me, this isn't about liking me, who wouldn't!
It's more about being identical. Even if a friend shares the same likes, interests, hobbies, they have a different view on it. Their brain thinks via a different process.
I don't want a mirror as a friend.
50 here, making (and losing) friends every year. We moved to another country, again, and we don’t find it very hard to forge lasting friendships with people so far anywhere.
Most people are just really bad at it; some people here who I try involve in activities always cancel or have ‘better stuff todo’ and then cry, later, that no one invites them anymore or they have no one to play with.
It’s not that hard…
> Imagine there’s another one of you. Wouldn’t you want to be friends with them?
Nice one and yes, I would :)
Most people are just really bad at it; some people here who I try involve in activities always cancel or have ‘better stuff todo’ and then cry, later, that no one invites them anymore or they have no one to play with.
It’s not that hard…
> Imagine there’s another one of you. Wouldn’t you want to be friends with them?
Nice one and yes, I would :)
Some people just have more of a natural talent, as with anything else. It’s not very helpful to just tell people they are bad at it. I don’t go around telling people that are bad at things that I’m good at that it’s not that hard and they should just try…
I’m 40 and in the same boat but also moved overseas and travel a lot. I think that kind of forces you into not losing the ability to make new friends through your life.
I do have to say that making friends with people you do not see every day for weeks on end feels different. I’ve spent more time with my friends from highschool than I will ever spend with any other individual whom I might eventually consider a friend.
>Imagine there’s another one of you. Wouldn’t you want to be friends with them?
Yeah but finding the other ones like you is incredibly difficult. People in their 30's and 40's with zero friends looking to make new ones are basically non existent where I live.
Yeah but finding the other ones like you is incredibly difficult. People in their 30's and 40's with zero friends looking to make new ones are basically non existent where I live.
Depends. For instance, I like; nature, rainforest, mountains, forests, programming, building startups (and then selling them), beer, cooking and some other stuff. So when I went to Scotland for instance for the first time (I was 43 I think), I sat in a pub drinking beer and programming an app, got talking with a guy who asked what I was doing. We talked briefly, he is a coder too and into elixer and haskell. Then my wife and me went hiking to the Lochs; it was winter and heavy snow, but I hike in any weather. We ran into this guy, hiking on his own. So we became friends and made a startup; it failed but we will do things in the future; he visits me and I visit him. Had almost exactly the same experience in Thailand a year later with a dutch guy (I am dutch) living there.
Interests connect and these guys hardly ever meet or met someone that intersects as much, so they clear their schedules (as do I) to foster a friendship.
I met most of my friends, business partners and clients this way. Overlapping interests and chance encounters.
I meet plenty people on internet in subreddits with the same interests and sometimes we meet up and then it clicks or it doesn’t.
Interests connect and these guys hardly ever meet or met someone that intersects as much, so they clear their schedules (as do I) to foster a friendship.
I met most of my friends, business partners and clients this way. Overlapping interests and chance encounters.
I meet plenty people on internet in subreddits with the same interests and sometimes we meet up and then it clicks or it doesn’t.
> People in their 30's and 40's with zero friends looking to make new ones are basically non existent where I live.
Why would they need to have “zero friends”. It is not like people have a max number of friends they can have.
Why would they need to have “zero friends”. It is not like people have a max number of friends they can have.
Because in my experience, where I live, once people past 30 have at least one reliable friend in their life the can rely on, they don't open themselves to making new ones, so they invest their time and energy elsewhere.
One person was really blunt with me: "you're a pretty cool guy, but I don't have time/space in my life for new people". Other people are less blunt but the same principle applies.
One person was really blunt with me: "you're a pretty cool guy, but I don't have time/space in my life for new people". Other people are less blunt but the same principle applies.
Obviously I can't say for sure, but to me "you're a pretty cool guy, but I don't have time/space in my life for new people" sounds much more like a polite excuse to avoid saying "you're not somebody I want to be friends with" than an accurate statement about the reason they can't be friends with you despite honestly feeling you and they are compatible friends.
edit: But maybe that's my British instincts wrongly diagnosing a statement that I have no real context to judge better.
edit: But maybe that's my British instincts wrongly diagnosing a statement that I have no real context to judge better.
Quite possibly not. If you have job, family, friends you hang out with and one hobby, then there is often zero time for new friendship. Cause that would require additional time.
Replied to similar comment and linking here in case you have comment reply notifications: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33679697
Maybe, maybe not. Someone I know who seemingly leads a normal social life turns down all my invitations to hang out with groups because he "doesn't need to meet new people." And he's not the only person I've known who has that attitude.
Sure, that's why I said that I can't know for sure - because it's a sentence that can be used truthfully or it can be used as a polite lie.
I just feel that if it were possible to track every time that sentence is said it would probably be significantly more often used as a polite excuse rather than as a truthful statement. (And even then, that's my gut feeling / assumption, I may even be wrong about which use is more common).
I just feel that if it were possible to track every time that sentence is said it would probably be significantly more often used as a polite excuse rather than as a truthful statement. (And even then, that's my gut feeling / assumption, I may even be wrong about which use is more common).
This is very true. Only thing is that after some time people stop trying and the other party is also needed
Definitely! Although if I met another one of me I'd do my best to turn them into a work friend too.
I find I've managed to find friends incidentally just by doing things. Taking up tennis, I've made friends, rollerskating, friends, and one potential close friend, kids sports, friends.
I've actually been somewhat surprised by how much random people desire connection upon the most tenuous of common interests.
Get involved in something, anything, that you like and slowly reach out to others with the same interests and you'll find friendships. Something I've found though, build them slowly lest they burn out quickly upon a pyre of previously unaware incompatibilities of opinion.
I seem to be an approachable person; being at least a superficially nice person, easy with a smile, seems to make a difference.
My few 'best' friends I see ever so rarely, but when we get together it's like no time has passed. I think that's a true test of deep friendship compatibility.
I've actually been somewhat surprised by how much random people desire connection upon the most tenuous of common interests.
Get involved in something, anything, that you like and slowly reach out to others with the same interests and you'll find friendships. Something I've found though, build them slowly lest they burn out quickly upon a pyre of previously unaware incompatibilities of opinion.
I seem to be an approachable person; being at least a superficially nice person, easy with a smile, seems to make a difference.
My few 'best' friends I see ever so rarely, but when we get together it's like no time has passed. I think that's a true test of deep friendship compatibility.
This. Find some group activity that's not work. Don't be shy to change said activity until you find one that you like. Then you'll have a group of people that are interested in at least one thing you're interested in and don't need to do office politics with you. Some kind of friendship with at least some of them will just follow.
I was going to write my own comment but I saw what you wrote and it reminded me of something that happened a few weeks ago.
Basically I'm the guy who keeps in touch with everyone. I have a chat group with guys I met at age 4. Everyone who went to school with me asks me "where is X now" and I'll tell them I last spoke to them not long ago. I talk to my old teachers, across the spectrum from 1st grade to high school. People from various jobs I did 20 years ago, I still know.
So I'm rounding up people for a high school signal group, and even those guys who never say anything to anyone will join it because it's memes and news articles we can comment on. Kinda nice to have all your old buddies there, even with lurkers bring a thing on private groups.
But this one guy, I know him pretty well, been to his house many times growing up, visited his parents, went to each others weddings, etc... Doesn't want to join.
It's just too painful. He feels tormented by some of the other guys in the group. Apparently they tried this some time ago and the chat descended into bullying him like we were in school, except now we're grown up everyone thinks it doesn't hurt anymore.
I really wish there was a solution, but I think it won't happen. Sometimes relationships go off the rails and never come back. I'll still go see my buddy next time I'm near him, but he's cut off everyone else.
Basically I'm the guy who keeps in touch with everyone. I have a chat group with guys I met at age 4. Everyone who went to school with me asks me "where is X now" and I'll tell them I last spoke to them not long ago. I talk to my old teachers, across the spectrum from 1st grade to high school. People from various jobs I did 20 years ago, I still know.
So I'm rounding up people for a high school signal group, and even those guys who never say anything to anyone will join it because it's memes and news articles we can comment on. Kinda nice to have all your old buddies there, even with lurkers bring a thing on private groups.
But this one guy, I know him pretty well, been to his house many times growing up, visited his parents, went to each others weddings, etc... Doesn't want to join.
It's just too painful. He feels tormented by some of the other guys in the group. Apparently they tried this some time ago and the chat descended into bullying him like we were in school, except now we're grown up everyone thinks it doesn't hurt anymore.
I really wish there was a solution, but I think it won't happen. Sometimes relationships go off the rails and never come back. I'll still go see my buddy next time I'm near him, but he's cut off everyone else.
You sound both like a wonderful human being and a very annoying one at the same time. But I like it. I salute you for keeping your people connected. Wish I had someone like you in my life.
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'It's just too painful. He feels tormented by some of the other guys in the group. Apparently they tried this some time ago and the chat descended into bullying him like we were in school, except now we're grown up everyone thinks it doesn't hurt anymore.'
This sounds like a similar situation with some of my family. Individually they are OK but as a group they revert to to their childhood personas and can be quite unpleasant and hurtful to be around.
This sounds like a similar situation with some of my family. Individually they are OK but as a group they revert to to their childhood personas and can be quite unpleasant and hurtful to be around.
Your story reminds me of how different we all are. I left my home town when I left school and essentially cut off everyone from that school and that town. I was friends with everyone in school, very friendly with the teachers, but that town was just not going to be where I excelled in any form. I am not even sure what I would do if an old school friend reached out to me!
A lot of people from tiny country/rural towns I think end up in this situation, because we often end up fighting the "Crabs in a Bucket" phenomenon when trying to be better humans, and leaving can be easier. Whilst I do think about people from my childhood and that town, it feels like an entirely different life to me.
A lot of people from tiny country/rural towns I think end up in this situation, because we often end up fighting the "Crabs in a Bucket" phenomenon when trying to be better humans, and leaving can be easier. Whilst I do think about people from my childhood and that town, it feels like an entirely different life to me.
Did you say anything about the bullying when it happened?
It sounds like you’re prioritizing quantity of friends.
It sounds like you’re prioritizing quantity of friends.
Even adults have a hard time stopping that kind of thing. Especially when it's non violent.
Also it wasn't like he was just bullied and shunned, he hung out with those guys too. I even did a road trip with that group. So it was a complicated thing that probably also evolved after school ended.
I don't think I ever thought about quantity of friends as a thing. It's not like it's binary whether someone is your friend.
Also it wasn't like he was just bullied and shunned, he hung out with those guys too. I even did a road trip with that group. So it was a complicated thing that probably also evolved after school ended.
I don't think I ever thought about quantity of friends as a thing. It's not like it's binary whether someone is your friend.
> Apparently they tried this some time ago...
it sounds to me like OP wasn't a participant in this group (and is only after finding out about what happened), though I could be misinterpreting it
it sounds to me like OP wasn't a participant in this group (and is only after finding out about what happened), though I could be misinterpreting it
> I didn't realize that people just stop making new friends after 30 (outside work).
I'm not sure where you got that impression. At 51 I'm still making new friends, mostly by seeking people out who share hobbies that I'm interested in. It gives me a base level of conversation to start out with. I recently started up a great relationship with the curator at a clock museum simply by going to his museum and talking clock with him. I go visit him at least once a month now, and he's begun to introduce me to other museum curators in the area. I also made a new set of friends recently by answering a Craigslist ad for a classic car in the area, then going to look at the car and talking to the guy for a couple hours. He invited me to a Sunday drive with a group of local classic car folks, and now I'm part of the group.
I'm not sure where you got that impression. At 51 I'm still making new friends, mostly by seeking people out who share hobbies that I'm interested in. It gives me a base level of conversation to start out with. I recently started up a great relationship with the curator at a clock museum simply by going to his museum and talking clock with him. I go visit him at least once a month now, and he's begun to introduce me to other museum curators in the area. I also made a new set of friends recently by answering a Craigslist ad for a classic car in the area, then going to look at the car and talking to the guy for a couple hours. He invited me to a Sunday drive with a group of local classic car folks, and now I'm part of the group.
In general he's right though, people are getting loneliner and make less (and less deep) friendships as they get old. As far as I know this is all pretty much common knowledge and verified in surveys and research.
You had a massive, untested assumption about life which ended up wrong.
At least you got the family part
At least you got the family part
> (outside work)
That's a pretty big exclusion. It is like excluding friends you make at school when you are a kid.
Obviously, to make friends you have to meet them first and preferably spend some time with them. And during adulthood, work is usually where it happens, during childhood, it is school.
I think the reason it happens less often in adulthood is that many people already have an established group of friends, but if life changes break the group people will make friends again.
That's a pretty big exclusion. It is like excluding friends you make at school when you are a kid.
Obviously, to make friends you have to meet them first and preferably spend some time with them. And during adulthood, work is usually where it happens, during childhood, it is school.
I think the reason it happens less often in adulthood is that many people already have an established group of friends, but if life changes break the group people will make friends again.
Oddly, I was quite awkward as a teenager and really struggled to make friends then.
I had friends in college, but I don’t really keep in touch with any of them these days.
My closest friends are a few I’ve had since childhood, but mostly those I’ve made since adulthood through work and just striking up conversations outside of it.
Try a few new things and put yourself out there. We’re none of us that different and we’re all social creatures.
I had friends in college, but I don’t really keep in touch with any of them these days.
My closest friends are a few I’ve had since childhood, but mostly those I’ve made since adulthood through work and just striking up conversations outside of it.
Try a few new things and put yourself out there. We’re none of us that different and we’re all social creatures.
I don’t know what happened but after Covid no one talks to me anymore.
Prior to Covid I could go out to a bar, strike up a convo with someone (or vice versa) and just chat about stuff, sometimes awkward sometimes not. Now though, no one seems to want to talk, bot sure if something about my demeanor has changed or something. I hate going out now because it usually just involves me slamming down drinks to kill time.
Prior to Covid I could go out to a bar, strike up a convo with someone (or vice versa) and just chat about stuff, sometimes awkward sometimes not. Now though, no one seems to want to talk, bot sure if something about my demeanor has changed or something. I hate going out now because it usually just involves me slamming down drinks to kill time.
If you're in the bay area, I am always up to have coffee with new, interesting people. I don't have a lot of time, but I actually automate this, and allocate a few hours a week just to casual meetings people. I rotate around who I get together with to make it manageable, so an hour or so doesn't disrupt my schedule at all.
Pre-pandemic, I liked "meetup" or other similar groups. You can make a lot of friends fast at a Haskell meetup, or at a retrocomputing users group. I suppose they're starting to come back....
Can you? I've been going to a monthly language meetup for a year now. It's the only one in real life I've been able to find in SF. Basically no one comes twice, and the ones I reach out to after the monthly meeting are lukewarm about hanging out.
> Reading about it just hurts
says a lot about our nature, i empathize (even though unlike you I can blame myself a bit for failing this aspect of existence), good luck
says a lot about our nature, i empathize (even though unlike you I can blame myself a bit for failing this aspect of existence), good luck
As it comes to friendships, people mistake time for priority.
Yes, I get it, people are busy. But they still have time. The average citizen spends several hours per day passively consuming entertainment. You may even have spare moments at work or in a commute.
You can call your friend. Or send a quick message to do some slow chat. And even in hectic schedules you can meet once a week or even once a month.
When you haven't connected to a friend in months, you're a shitty friend. You don't have a time problem, you have a priority problem. And that's the thing that people are unwilling to admit: it's just less important after a certain age, where we use time as an excuse.
Yes, I get it, people are busy. But they still have time. The average citizen spends several hours per day passively consuming entertainment. You may even have spare moments at work or in a commute.
You can call your friend. Or send a quick message to do some slow chat. And even in hectic schedules you can meet once a week or even once a month.
When you haven't connected to a friend in months, you're a shitty friend. You don't have a time problem, you have a priority problem. And that's the thing that people are unwilling to admit: it's just less important after a certain age, where we use time as an excuse.
A method which has proven successful with friends is arranging for a future appointment to have a call. Usually we ask what the other is up to next week and book in a 1-2hr slot one evening for a call.
I've found male friends open up much more about how they are when speaking and appreciate the regular monthly check-ins.
I've found male friends open up much more about how they are when speaking and appreciate the regular monthly check-ins.
> When you haven't connected to a friend in months, you're a shitty friend.
Needlessly harsh overgeneralization, I think.
I hate phone calls for the sake of catching up, and I have plenty of friends who are the same. We'll go months without talking until there's some reason to - maybe I'm going to be visiting their city, or I want to let them know that my wife is pregnant, or I just watched a new TV show that I think they'll love. When those things happen, I text, and we chat and maybe see each other, and our friendship isn't ever diminished just because we haven't spoken in months.
I'm very happy with these friendships, and my friends are very happy with these friendships, and yet you're telling me that we're all shitty friends. Maybe you need to be contacted regularly by someone in order to consider them a friend, but not everyone shares that need. Other people aren't shitty friends just because they don't meet your needs.
Needlessly harsh overgeneralization, I think.
I hate phone calls for the sake of catching up, and I have plenty of friends who are the same. We'll go months without talking until there's some reason to - maybe I'm going to be visiting their city, or I want to let them know that my wife is pregnant, or I just watched a new TV show that I think they'll love. When those things happen, I text, and we chat and maybe see each other, and our friendship isn't ever diminished just because we haven't spoken in months.
I'm very happy with these friendships, and my friends are very happy with these friendships, and yet you're telling me that we're all shitty friends. Maybe you need to be contacted regularly by someone in order to consider them a friend, but not everyone shares that need. Other people aren't shitty friends just because they don't meet your needs.
I totally agree and was put off by that posters assertion. Nicely put.
That's a remote acquaintance, not a friend.
Listen, I'm sorry that you have apparently been burned by friends who didn't call you enough in the past and now feel compelled to pass judgement upon other people's friendships, but you don't get to tell me, somebody you've never met, who my friends are.
I'm not passing judgement on your friendships, as you have none.
This time a thousand.
If so called friends don't make priority for you then they never were your friends.
Social apps are easy in, easy out. Physical interaction with friend is greater effort unless you're roommates or very welcoming neighbors.
There's a difference between sociology (as taught in American universities) and cultural anthropology, and this article is a nice demonstration of that difference. Note that everything in this article only applies to a relatively small socio-economic grouping - i.e. relatively well-off college-educated Americans. This is explicitly stated, more or less, in the article:
> "The saga of adult friendship starts off well enough. “I think young adulthood is the golden age for forming friendships,” Rawlins says. “Especially for people who have the privilege and the blessing of being able to go to college.”"
There are many different cultures and economic groupings, globally speaking, and they don't all devolve into isolated 'nuclear family' groupings over time, as this article implies. The majority of people don't actually have Facebook feeds from people they haven't seen in 35 years. Their friendships are based in the communities they live in - the people they trade with for food, clothing, and other necessities. There's a much greater sense of mutual interdependence, not so much the concept of isolated individual success followed by what, retreat to a gated community?
If you attempt to take an outside perspective, it's rather startling how class-stratified and wealth-stratified American society has become, very similar to the posh/prole divide in imperial Britain.
> "The saga of adult friendship starts off well enough. “I think young adulthood is the golden age for forming friendships,” Rawlins says. “Especially for people who have the privilege and the blessing of being able to go to college.”"
There are many different cultures and economic groupings, globally speaking, and they don't all devolve into isolated 'nuclear family' groupings over time, as this article implies. The majority of people don't actually have Facebook feeds from people they haven't seen in 35 years. Their friendships are based in the communities they live in - the people they trade with for food, clothing, and other necessities. There's a much greater sense of mutual interdependence, not so much the concept of isolated individual success followed by what, retreat to a gated community?
If you attempt to take an outside perspective, it's rather startling how class-stratified and wealth-stratified American society has become, very similar to the posh/prole divide in imperial Britain.
The issue I have with posts like these is that when you compare and contrast anglo/american culture with "other" cultures, you handwave away specific examples of "others".
"The majority of people" is a pretty broad group here, from Portugal to the Russian far east, Namibia to Papua New Guinea, Chile to Mexico. So when you say:
The majority of people don't actually have Facebook feeds from people they haven't seen in 35 years. Their friendships are based in the communities they live in - the people they trade with for food, clothing, and other necessities. There's a much greater sense of mutual interdependence, not so much the concept of isolated individual success followed by what, retreat to a gated community?
Does that really apply to all non-anglo/american cultures? You would have to be extraordinarily knowledgeable of near thousands of human cultures to know this.
it's rather startling how class-stratified and wealth-stratified American society has become, very similar to the posh/prole divide in imperial Britain.
It'd be a challenge to claim that the "prole/posh divide" in Imperial Britain was anywhere near as strong as some of its contemporaries - say the Qing Dynasty or Ottoman Empire.
"The majority of people" is a pretty broad group here, from Portugal to the Russian far east, Namibia to Papua New Guinea, Chile to Mexico. So when you say:
The majority of people don't actually have Facebook feeds from people they haven't seen in 35 years. Their friendships are based in the communities they live in - the people they trade with for food, clothing, and other necessities. There's a much greater sense of mutual interdependence, not so much the concept of isolated individual success followed by what, retreat to a gated community?
Does that really apply to all non-anglo/american cultures? You would have to be extraordinarily knowledgeable of near thousands of human cultures to know this.
it's rather startling how class-stratified and wealth-stratified American society has become, very similar to the posh/prole divide in imperial Britain.
It'd be a challenge to claim that the "prole/posh divide" in Imperial Britain was anywhere near as strong as some of its contemporaries - say the Qing Dynasty or Ottoman Empire.
> Does that really apply to all non-anglo/american cultures? You would have to be extraordinarily knowledgeable of near thousands of human cultures to know this.
Or you could find out how many users facebook has, and subtract it from the world population. If you're left with "the majority of people," you've easily proved it.
Or you could find out how many users facebook has, and subtract it from the world population. If you're left with "the majority of people," you've easily proved it.
The ironic thing is that, as discussed in this thread, the article is really focused on upwardly mobile college graduates who have transitioned into marriage / kids.
This fits me and my friend group to a T, but the bits about Facebook don't land because me and all of my friends have abandoned that platform.
This fits me and my friend group to a T, but the bits about Facebook don't land because me and all of my friends have abandoned that platform.
Even simpler proof: majority of people in the world are under 35.
I've been subscribing to The Atlantic for years. It is entirely targeted at upperclass, liberal, college-educated whites. Which is exactly why I read it. Why would I read a magazine targeted at a culture I don't understand or am not a part of? I do expect The Atlantic to explain these culture groups to me in a language I understand, but any periodical simply targets its own audience for profitability reasons.
This sounds like a nice way to keep yourself trapped in an information bubble. I live thousands of miles away from the nearest English-speaking country in a society pretty different to what you'd see in England or the US, yet spend most of my time in the English-speaking section of the internet precisely because of that (reading pretty much anything that comes by, targeted at as diverse groups as possible).
> This sounds like a nice way to keep yourself trapped in an information bubble.
Not from a good source. As GP put it:
> I do expect The Atlantic to explain these culture groups to me in a language I understand
Not from a good source. As GP put it:
> I do expect The Atlantic to explain these culture groups to me in a language I understand
[deleted]
Because it’s valuable to try to understand groups other than your own? Maybe even learn from them? Honestly I’m baffled that you hold this opinion with some pride.
I ascended to that class from a working class family (and no college) and y’all have just as many problems as any other social group.
I ascended to that class from a working class family (and no college) and y’all have just as many problems as any other social group.
I don't think you understand my opinion very well.
At no point did I say I do not wish to understand other people's opinions. But I don't speak in their culture, so I need it explained to me. That's literally what liberal humanities are all about, from the Renaissance on: trying to understand the world around you.
Are you somehow assuming, for example, that to truly understand Russia I should only read Russian newspapers and talk to Russians and speak Russian? I shouldn't have say how absurd that is, but here we are.
> y’all have just as many problems as any other social group
I never said we didn't. Don't put your shit on me.
At no point did I say I do not wish to understand other people's opinions. But I don't speak in their culture, so I need it explained to me. That's literally what liberal humanities are all about, from the Renaissance on: trying to understand the world around you.
Are you somehow assuming, for example, that to truly understand Russia I should only read Russian newspapers and talk to Russians and speak Russian? I shouldn't have say how absurd that is, but here we are.
> y’all have just as many problems as any other social group
I never said we didn't. Don't put your shit on me.
> Are you somehow assuming, for example, that to truly understand Russia I should only read Russian newspapers and talk to Russians and speak Russian? I shouldn't have say how absurd that is, but here we are.
This attitude is so toxic and the reason why many Americans feel as if the 'elites' are talking down to them. Why do you presume the Atlantic, owned by Steve Job's widow, has any incentive to accurately portray these foreign cultures or even domestic subcultures? What a wild belief.
This attitude is so toxic and the reason why many Americans feel as if the 'elites' are talking down to them. Why do you presume the Atlantic, owned by Steve Job's widow, has any incentive to accurately portray these foreign cultures or even domestic subcultures? What a wild belief.
> I shouldn't have say how absurd that is, but here we are.
You might think it's absurd, but that's precisely how you obtain deep knowledge of another culture - you learn the language or, at the very least, listen to first-hand accounts of people belonging to that culture who speak your language.
Otherwise you're essentially asking to dumb it down for you.
This is especially valid in the case of Russia.
You might think it's absurd, but that's precisely how you obtain deep knowledge of another culture - you learn the language or, at the very least, listen to first-hand accounts of people belonging to that culture who speak your language.
Otherwise you're essentially asking to dumb it down for you.
This is especially valid in the case of Russia.
> Otherwise you're essentially asking to dumb it down for you.
I wonder if you are exempt from the judgment you put on others.
While I agree that one can obtain a deeper understanding of a culture by exploring it thoroughly, your suggestion that any translation is "dumbing it down" is as absurd as your first argument, and an insult to every teacher.
This purity argument is destructive, as it reflects a powerfully deep elitism that is so exclusive, it appears to be an obvious volley against truth. I also wonder if you are capable of that kind of deep cynicism, or are just blathering.
(In anticipation, one easy argument against this purity is that people who speak English, live in America, went to college in America, got degrees in America ... STILL do not understand incredibly large parts of American culture until it is explained to them in their mode and register, and not even then in many cases. As my citations I'll simply point to our elections. So, yes, one can obtain deeper knowledge by full immersion--which is the point of deeper intellectual understanding--but ultimately that is an approximation, and even full assimilation does not bring enlightenment. Unless you are the thing, you are speaking through translation suited to your cultural comprehension.)
I wonder if you are exempt from the judgment you put on others.
While I agree that one can obtain a deeper understanding of a culture by exploring it thoroughly, your suggestion that any translation is "dumbing it down" is as absurd as your first argument, and an insult to every teacher.
This purity argument is destructive, as it reflects a powerfully deep elitism that is so exclusive, it appears to be an obvious volley against truth. I also wonder if you are capable of that kind of deep cynicism, or are just blathering.
(In anticipation, one easy argument against this purity is that people who speak English, live in America, went to college in America, got degrees in America ... STILL do not understand incredibly large parts of American culture until it is explained to them in their mode and register, and not even then in many cases. As my citations I'll simply point to our elections. So, yes, one can obtain deeper knowledge by full immersion--which is the point of deeper intellectual understanding--but ultimately that is an approximation, and even full assimilation does not bring enlightenment. Unless you are the thing, you are speaking through translation suited to your cultural comprehension.)
> your suggestion that any translation is "dumbing it down" is as absurd as your first argument, and an insult to every teacher.
I didn't suggest that, otherwise I wouldn't mention first-hand accounts of people who speak your language.
I'm eastern European and I've seen my share of people trying to explain Russia to others without an appropriate understanding of the topic.
They're often hilariously off the mark and I'm surprised anyone would prefer them over sources closer to the matter.
> In anticipation, one easy argument against this purity is that people who speak English, live in America, went to college in America, got degrees in America ... STILL do not understand incredibly large parts of American culture until it is explained to them in their mode and register, and not even then in many cases.
Do you consider yourself such a person? I mean, that's real some self-awareness, but at the same time you're condemning yourself to reliance on people who may or may not know what they're talking about.
I didn't suggest that, otherwise I wouldn't mention first-hand accounts of people who speak your language.
I'm eastern European and I've seen my share of people trying to explain Russia to others without an appropriate understanding of the topic.
They're often hilariously off the mark and I'm surprised anyone would prefer them over sources closer to the matter.
> In anticipation, one easy argument against this purity is that people who speak English, live in America, went to college in America, got degrees in America ... STILL do not understand incredibly large parts of American culture until it is explained to them in their mode and register, and not even then in many cases.
Do you consider yourself such a person? I mean, that's real some self-awareness, but at the same time you're condemning yourself to reliance on people who may or may not know what they're talking about.
You will miss quite a lot about Russia that way. Namely, the way their believes actually plays out abroad.
You will also miss large parts of Russian history, because it was nit sage to talk about historical stuff like purges in there for years.
You will also miss large parts of Russian history, because it was nit sage to talk about historical stuff like purges in there for years.
That's not a concern, since I have reliable sources for that.
What I usually don't have at hand is insight regarding what's the current mindset and attitudes - the most revealing conversation I had about that was with a Russian who moved out of the countery and her reasons behind this decision (not money since she was from Moscow).
The most striking is always what a person considers normal.
What I usually don't have at hand is insight regarding what's the current mindset and attitudes - the most revealing conversation I had about that was with a Russian who moved out of the countery and her reasons behind this decision (not money since she was from Moscow).
The most striking is always what a person considers normal.
Where do you get this impression? The article was clearly written for American audiences, and the sociologist Rawlins clearly focuses on American society.
You make it sound like they are just talking out of their rear end, making things up based on their own privileged and unrepresentative personal experience, but my impression is that their opinion is formed by their own research, which might be a couple decades old, but is probably still relevant.
If there's anything to complain about here, is that Americans tend to forget that there is a world outside of the USA.
You make it sound like they are just talking out of their rear end, making things up based on their own privileged and unrepresentative personal experience, but my impression is that their opinion is formed by their own research, which might be a couple decades old, but is probably still relevant.
If there's anything to complain about here, is that Americans tend to forget that there is a world outside of the USA.
Americans also tend to forget there is a world inside of the USA that isn't upper middle class, college educated, work all day, annual vacation people posting on social media.
The sense of community and day to day lives are very different and much more enjoyable. The only problem is that due to exploitation by distant corporate actors that community is played with violence, obesity and drug addiction.
The sense of community and day to day lives are very different and much more enjoyable. The only problem is that due to exploitation by distant corporate actors that community is played with violence, obesity and drug addiction.
> much more enjoyable
?
> played with obesity
plagued maybe. but also, no, corpos don't make people fat, and crime rates per pop are not as us/them as one might expect: https://i.redd.it/zzbhmc3gd4u31.png
?
> played with obesity
plagued maybe. but also, no, corpos don't make people fat, and crime rates per pop are not as us/them as one might expect: https://i.redd.it/zzbhmc3gd4u31.png
> Where do you get this impression?
The article itself talks of life stages in terms of how things change, with college life being a case study as a small aside in the middle of the article. It's written as though these insights apply to everyone, even mentioning the "International Association of Relationship Researchers" at the beginning.
It's a very common problem in sociology-type sciences, where they study college students because they're easy access, then extrapolate to the entire population.
The article itself talks of life stages in terms of how things change, with college life being a case study as a small aside in the middle of the article. It's written as though these insights apply to everyone, even mentioning the "International Association of Relationship Researchers" at the beginning.
It's a very common problem in sociology-type sciences, where they study college students because they're easy access, then extrapolate to the entire population.
> Americans tend to forget that there is a world outside of the USA
Reinforced by the apparent reality that mostly what people outside the USA want to talk about is the USA. Even on HN, where we have a large contingent of Europeans participating, we don't hear too much about Europe. It's almost always about the US.
Reinforced by the apparent reality that mostly what people outside the USA want to talk about is the USA. Even on HN, where we have a large contingent of Europeans participating, we don't hear too much about Europe. It's almost always about the US.
> Reinforced by the apparent reality that mostly what people outside the USA want to talk about is the USA.
I'm from Europe and sure, one of the main reasons why I come to this US-based site with a majority of US readership is to find American viewpoints on issues, and engage in discussions about the USA.
This doesn't mean that I spend my life wanting to talk about the USA, though. I talk much more about my own country but it's on sites with readership from that country (and in real life, of course) so you're not aware of it.
And many of my compatriots don't talk about the USA at all, you just don't see them because they don't hang out in sites like this at all.
(Maybe this is already what you meant, that when an American interacts with someone from outside, they often want to talk about the USA -which is not the same as saying that people from outside often talk about the USA in general-. But it's not clear from your wording).
I'm from Europe and sure, one of the main reasons why I come to this US-based site with a majority of US readership is to find American viewpoints on issues, and engage in discussions about the USA.
This doesn't mean that I spend my life wanting to talk about the USA, though. I talk much more about my own country but it's on sites with readership from that country (and in real life, of course) so you're not aware of it.
And many of my compatriots don't talk about the USA at all, you just don't see them because they don't hang out in sites like this at all.
(Maybe this is already what you meant, that when an American interacts with someone from outside, they often want to talk about the USA -which is not the same as saying that people from outside often talk about the USA in general-. But it's not clear from your wording).
If I want to get perspectives from Europeans and from other parts of the world, what are the best sites to go to in order to see them?
There are plenty of articles about EU regulations or Amsterdam roads on here. But the US has the biggest single audience. Most websites have like 60% Americans but only 10% British or Germans, so anything about the US has it about six times easier to relate than something about Germany
Which makes sense, because the UK has the population of California + Texas, and Germany has the population of California + Texas + Illinois.
Of course this is a US-focused site to some extent, but the US just has a big contiguous language community. It's comparable to all of Europe, not individual countries.
Of course this is a US-focused site to some extent, but the US just has a big contiguous language community. It's comparable to all of Europe, not individual countries.
Talking and hearing about the US is fun but I mainly come here for the tech news.
Because hardly anybody in European countries writes about their country using English language. Posting Polish article here would make no sense, since hardly anybody would be able to read it, thus only news which reported internationally get any attention. And since USA is quite big and eventful country English-speaking country, we naturally gravitate toward discussions about it.
This is true. Also true that because something isn’t of universal applicability that doesn’t mean it isn’t of merit for a specific group. I don’t think the Atlantic pretends it’s readership isn’t overwhelming upper middle
class+ highly educated center-left Americans. There is a balance isn’t there between acknowledging differences exist and only writing things of universal relevance which is mostly to say nothing at all.
Was about to write the exact same thing. Having grown up around multigenerational immigrant families in a working class environment in a Western country that is, the article already sounds foreign to me, and I'm not even that far off the target demographic compared to some other places in the world.
And still now as an adult in my early thirties who moved to Tokyo a few years ago, socially my environment is dominanted by friendships, which is true for many people my age. The article points to friendships being voluntary as one key distinction between say marriage and friends, but statistics will tell everyone that many of those marriages nowadays aren't that permanent.
Article sounds a little bit like it was written by someone who lives in American Beauty still.
And still now as an adult in my early thirties who moved to Tokyo a few years ago, socially my environment is dominanted by friendships, which is true for many people my age. The article points to friendships being voluntary as one key distinction between say marriage and friends, but statistics will tell everyone that many of those marriages nowadays aren't that permanent.
Article sounds a little bit like it was written by someone who lives in American Beauty still.
Stratification of American society is largely due to people fleeing violent and property crime, especially once they have children. There is considerable hysteresis so it’s not as simple as lining up cost of living and crime stats, but a “nice neighborhood with good schools” will be considerably more expensive all else being equal.
> largely due to people fleeing violent and property crime, especially once they have children.
If I have to guess, what I think you're actually talking about is
1) after middle-class suburban kids leave home to go to college, then
2) graduate and move into gentrifying areas to take internships/jobs in big cities, then
3) get married during that period in their 20s while their income is rising into six figures, and
4) they purchase their starter house in the latest gentrifying neighborhood, then
5) get pregnant and get a dog at the same time, so
6) muggings and property crimes in their new neighborhood turn them extremely reactionary, then
7) they move to a massive palace in the suburbs either shortly before or shortly after the kid pops out.
i.e. the universal American experience.
If I have to guess, what I think you're actually talking about is
1) after middle-class suburban kids leave home to go to college, then
2) graduate and move into gentrifying areas to take internships/jobs in big cities, then
3) get married during that period in their 20s while their income is rising into six figures, and
4) they purchase their starter house in the latest gentrifying neighborhood, then
5) get pregnant and get a dog at the same time, so
6) muggings and property crimes in their new neighborhood turn them extremely reactionary, then
7) they move to a massive palace in the suburbs either shortly before or shortly after the kid pops out.
i.e. the universal American experience.
>i.e. the universal American experience.
How is this consistent with #3? $100k incomes are 80th percentile.
https://dqydj.com/income-percentile-calculator/
How is this consistent with #3? $100k incomes are 80th percentile.
https://dqydj.com/income-percentile-calculator/
Median household is $70K, $100K is 62nd percentile. So if both partners are working, which is common before children, it’s fairly likely.
Eh, I would be willing to bet the steps outlined in pessimizer’s post are experienced by 20% of young adults (let’s say 25 to 35 years old).
All others are renting or not moving into a “massive place” after their initial purchase, which itself was probably barely affordable.
All others are renting or not moving into a “massive place” after their initial purchase, which itself was probably barely affordable.
> Stratification of American society is largely due to people fleeing violent and property crime, especially once they have children.
Claim made without evidence, and there is plenty of evidence that there are other larger factors at play.
Claim made without evidence, and there is plenty of evidence that there are other larger factors at play.
As a gay adult not planning to have children, friends are the center of my life and probably will be for a long time. I think gay culture in NYC is an excellent example of the opposite of what this article describes - we all work hard, and many of us have partners, but we all maintain an evolving network of friends. It’s not hard to stay in touch or run into someone or make plans on a whim. It feels kind of like we’re all permanently adolescents. People come and go (jobs, travel, new opportunities), but with enough connections there’s always someone you’ve known for a while who is currently around. Sometimes these friendships aren’t very deep, sometimes they are. Some are brief, some are decades long.
Jealous. So, so jealous.
> there are three expectations of a close friend that I hear people describing and valuing across the entire life course, Somebody to talk to, someone to depend on, and someone to enjoy.
I have two close friends. All three of us are in similar life circumstances. Married, kids in elementary/middle/high school, programmers, in our 40s or early 50s, etc.
But, our entire friendship revolves around boardgames. We get together every Thursday night to play games for 3-4 hours.
Someone to talk to? Well, we don’t talk outside of boardgame night and we don’t really talk at boardgame night, other than about the game.
Someone to depend on? Well, pretty much all we depend on is that we will all show up.
Someone to enjoy? Well, frankly, we probably all enjoy boardgames more.
I have two close friends. All three of us are in similar life circumstances. Married, kids in elementary/middle/high school, programmers, in our 40s or early 50s, etc.
But, our entire friendship revolves around boardgames. We get together every Thursday night to play games for 3-4 hours.
Someone to talk to? Well, we don’t talk outside of boardgame night and we don’t really talk at boardgame night, other than about the game.
Someone to depend on? Well, pretty much all we depend on is that we will all show up.
Someone to enjoy? Well, frankly, we probably all enjoy boardgames more.
Sorry but I call bullshit.
> Someone to talk to? Well, we don’t talk outside of boardgame night and we don’t really talk at boardgame night, other than about the game.
So you never, ever mention any personal event at game night? I don’t think so.
> Someone to depend on? Well, pretty much all we depend on is that we will all show up.
If one of them moved to a new house and needed help, would you go? Yeah, you would.
> Someone to enjoy? Well, frankly, we probably all enjoy boardgames more.
Nonsense, the secret ingredient of a good game is good company. So yeah, you big fluffy, you enjoy your friend’s company!
> Someone to talk to? Well, we don’t talk outside of boardgame night and we don’t really talk at boardgame night, other than about the game.
So you never, ever mention any personal event at game night? I don’t think so.
> Someone to depend on? Well, pretty much all we depend on is that we will all show up.
If one of them moved to a new house and needed help, would you go? Yeah, you would.
> Someone to enjoy? Well, frankly, we probably all enjoy boardgames more.
Nonsense, the secret ingredient of a good game is good company. So yeah, you big fluffy, you enjoy your friend’s company!
> So you never, ever mention any personal event at game night? I don’t think so.
We really really don’t. We are there to play games, we don’t have time or brain space for small talk. We play heavy games that take a lot of deep thinking.
We really really don’t. We are there to play games, we don’t have time or brain space for small talk. We play heavy games that take a lot of deep thinking.
Curious: what kind of board games do you play?
Also: have you considered the possibility that they might not be "close friends", as you describe them? What makes you say they are? Just interested in your answer, not wanting to demolish your point of view.
Also: have you considered the possibility that they might not be "close friends", as you describe them? What makes you say they are? Just interested in your answer, not wanting to demolish your point of view.
All kinds: pax Pamir, brass, food chain magnate, race for the Galaxy, a feast for Odin, Trickerion, root, etc.
They are my only friends. Since I don’t have any closer friends, I consider them to be my close friends.
They are my only friends. Since I don’t have any closer friends, I consider them to be my close friends.
Big disagree on that. I play boardgames for the games, not the people.
I found I formed a deeper connection with my D&D group once we started doing non-D&D things together. It was a switch from consistent friends to close friends.
It sounds like your definition of a close friend differs from the one described.
They are probably your acquaintances (to play boardgames), not real friends.
"Acquaintance" is a word many more americans should be using much more of the time. The over-use of "friend" to describe "anyone I know" has been a problem for me ever since I moved here (3 decades ago). It also has implications for reporting too, where "anyone a person of interest knew" is a "friend".
Yeah, me and 4 others and 40K, at 40.
The reason why we have fewer friends now is because we have optimized life for economic growth, not happiness. Technology is the primary thing to blame here. If we didn't have technology, we would have to rely on each other more and we would not have social outlets like the internet to provide a superficial social bandage to our underlying social needs.
It's also the width of the economic growth mindset. We fuel the 'have more devices and be free-er and independent' so naturally people can live on their own (misery).
I may be imagining things but when you live in a small place where you have no choice but to share the load and pleasure of life (granted the group is emotionally stable), you don't suffer from that. You're a jolly bunch making your place nicer, finding and cooking food, and being goofy at night around the fire.
I may be imagining things but when you live in a small place where you have no choice but to share the load and pleasure of life (granted the group is emotionally stable), you don't suffer from that. You're a jolly bunch making your place nicer, finding and cooking food, and being goofy at night around the fire.
> granted the group is emotionally stable
No group is emotionaly stable. We just deal with all the problems that come up more, or less effectively.
No group is emotionaly stable. We just deal with all the problems that come up more, or less effectively.
You know what I mean, not too crazy / violent. Of course it's never absolute peace. But at the same time this is one factor that drove 'modern societies' to more and more isolation. It's tempting to not want to deal with others. But at that point it's detrimental.
I don't want to rely on others and I would not want to live a life without technology.
Sad :(. It is scary at first but very fulfilling if you find reliable people.
Why is it sad? I'm very happy with my life.
So suppose economic growth ends today. How do you optimize for friendship?
It's an interesting question but it won't stop. I think the question is (for the individual), how can you organize your life and your priorities so that friendship plays a more central role in your life?
You just start caring. When you dedicate your time to it, you'll find out how to deal with each person uniquely as you should do.
Technology is not to blame. Capitalism is to blame. Ignorant to say otherwise.
I liked this article. I think more about friendships than any other philosophical topic. I moved to a new city at 22 where I knew almost no one. It turns out that it's orders of magnitude harder making friends without a few seed connections. The nuances of meeting people and building relationships are so arbitrary and idiosyncratic; some things, like sports, happen to be really conducive to making friends, whereas conferences and tech meetups for me proved less fertile. Even acquaintances often simply aren't looking to change their group of close friends.
It was frustrating and discouraging for a long time and then suddenly I found myself with people to call on and spend time with. Half a decade later I moved and had the opportunity to try the experiment again. This time secondary connections made finding my network almost trivial. Maybe age helped too, being further removed from the university cliques.
I was relieved to find out, albeit way after the fact, that many have this experience. One friend recently quit his job to start a company focused on this phenomenon [0]. I hope he can displace the zombie of Meetup.
[0] https://getopenmat.com/
It was frustrating and discouraging for a long time and then suddenly I found myself with people to call on and spend time with. Half a decade later I moved and had the opportunity to try the experiment again. This time secondary connections made finding my network almost trivial. Maybe age helped too, being further removed from the university cliques.
I was relieved to find out, albeit way after the fact, that many have this experience. One friend recently quit his job to start a company focused on this phenomenon [0]. I hope he can displace the zombie of Meetup.
[0] https://getopenmat.com/
What kind of secondary connections were those the second time if I may ask? I might be in this situation soon and wondering if I can direct it in some way.
One example is that when I was moving, existing friends from the old city gave me a lot of tips of things to get involved in, i.e. there was a run club in a certain neighborhood or whatever.
Otherwise, previous friends knew people and put me in touch. And finally there were 1-2 people who had also moved to the same city at some point, making it easy to plug into their networks
Otherwise, previous friends knew people and put me in touch. And finally there were 1-2 people who had also moved to the same city at some point, making it easy to plug into their networks
Thanks for this comment. I just moved to a new city at 25 and have been pessimistic about being able to meet anyone.
Love the username- please tell me it's a Master + Margarita reference
Anecdotally here's what's worked for me:
1. Intramural sports- even if you're not sporty, some leagues have zero barrier to entry (Bowling or sand volleyball 6's). There are usually pickup sports apps as well that you could probably find based on your city (i.e. JustPlay)
2. Volunteering- especially neighborhood / trail cleanup groups that you can find on Instagram or Meetup. These are low commitment and people tend to be friendly. Habitat for Humanity was another one that had lots of young people new to the city.
3. Free Fitness (or any other hobby) Groups- you can find anywhere. November Project, for example is in most cities
Anecdotally here's what's worked for me:
1. Intramural sports- even if you're not sporty, some leagues have zero barrier to entry (Bowling or sand volleyball 6's). There are usually pickup sports apps as well that you could probably find based on your city (i.e. JustPlay)
2. Volunteering- especially neighborhood / trail cleanup groups that you can find on Instagram or Meetup. These are low commitment and people tend to be friendly. Habitat for Humanity was another one that had lots of young people new to the city.
3. Free Fitness (or any other hobby) Groups- you can find anywhere. November Project, for example is in most cities
Apple Store link on the site is broken, and there's no such app in the Apple Store?
I see, I think the app is in beta / TestFlight right now
Alcohol, or some other sort of addictive vice, seems key to adult friendships. Alcoholics have lots of friends, as do gamblers, obsessive exercisers, inveterate golfers, sex addicts, drug addicts, sports fanatics, gamers, etc.
American society doesn't have social norms like many other countries which compel people to include others out of habit. I lived in Spain for a few years - turning down invitations was a legit hassle. And you've probably heard Brit comedians constantly complain about having to make excuses to avoid social gatherings. Americans don't have that problem - we assume you have your own things going on and don't want to bug you, and no one wants to presume to invite ourselves. And who knows what sort of nutjob your neighbor might turn out to be - you're stuck with them for as long as you live where you are, best to just avoid eye contact. The only times in my life I've gotten invited out of the blue to some event was to religious things. "The barbecue will be great - we all head over after the service..."
So we need an excuse. Some irresistible reason to force ourselves upon each other. Alcoholics don't want to drink alone. Athletes need teams or opponents, druggies need their dealers, etc. It can't be a hobby. You have to need to do whatever it is you're doing, to get past the barriers of American distrust and to have a ready rationalization for spending time with people who aren't your family.
American society doesn't have social norms like many other countries which compel people to include others out of habit. I lived in Spain for a few years - turning down invitations was a legit hassle. And you've probably heard Brit comedians constantly complain about having to make excuses to avoid social gatherings. Americans don't have that problem - we assume you have your own things going on and don't want to bug you, and no one wants to presume to invite ourselves. And who knows what sort of nutjob your neighbor might turn out to be - you're stuck with them for as long as you live where you are, best to just avoid eye contact. The only times in my life I've gotten invited out of the blue to some event was to religious things. "The barbecue will be great - we all head over after the service..."
So we need an excuse. Some irresistible reason to force ourselves upon each other. Alcoholics don't want to drink alone. Athletes need teams or opponents, druggies need their dealers, etc. It can't be a hobby. You have to need to do whatever it is you're doing, to get past the barriers of American distrust and to have a ready rationalization for spending time with people who aren't your family.
> In the hierarchy of relationships, friendships are at the bottom.
Depends where you are in life. For me as a single guy in his early 30s, friendships are absolutely at the top of the hierarchy for me.
> Friendships are unique relationships because unlike family relationships, we choose to enter into them.
And this is WHY friends are above family for me. Admittedly, if I had my own family (as in wife and kids), they'd be my top priority in life for sure.
However, unfortunately I do notice that it's getting harder to meet up with friends as their obligations in life increase. One of my best friends has started university again while still working part-time, and so even though he lives in walking distance, we don't see each other very often because he's extremely short on time. Two other of my closest friends live in a different country, but somehow we're managing to meet up 3-4 times a year for at least a week each. That might change though when you'll eventually have kids.
To be honest, I won't read the whole article, but I just wanted to say that it can be different. At least I really hope that my friends will be a high priority for me even if my or their life situations inevitably change.
Depends where you are in life. For me as a single guy in his early 30s, friendships are absolutely at the top of the hierarchy for me.
> Friendships are unique relationships because unlike family relationships, we choose to enter into them.
And this is WHY friends are above family for me. Admittedly, if I had my own family (as in wife and kids), they'd be my top priority in life for sure.
However, unfortunately I do notice that it's getting harder to meet up with friends as their obligations in life increase. One of my best friends has started university again while still working part-time, and so even though he lives in walking distance, we don't see each other very often because he's extremely short on time. Two other of my closest friends live in a different country, but somehow we're managing to meet up 3-4 times a year for at least a week each. That might change though when you'll eventually have kids.
To be honest, I won't read the whole article, but I just wanted to say that it can be different. At least I really hope that my friends will be a high priority for me even if my or their life situations inevitably change.
Sorry wouldn't a single guy in his early 30s have the relationship with a romantic partner be on top of social hierarchy?
I am in the same place, I while I logically understand that it's probably easier to find a girl friend if I had a friend or two first, I still have a much stronger desire to have a romantic partner that just a friend.
I am in the same place, I while I logically understand that it's probably easier to find a girl friend if I had a friend or two first, I still have a much stronger desire to have a romantic partner that just a friend.
Having regular friends, including male ones, greatly increases your odds of meeting a romantic partner.
Also not all single guys in their early 30s are eager to find a romantic partner. I am also in that age bracket and I am avoiding having another monogamous relationship for at least some years
Also not all single guys in their early 30s are eager to find a romantic partner. I am also in that age bracket and I am avoiding having another monogamous relationship for at least some years
Friends can be the canary in the coal mine: if your partner hates all your friends, or worse, tries to push you away from them, it's a screaming red flag. Nobody goes into a relationship expecting it to happen. Abusers are adept at pulling people in deep before revealing it was a trap. It can happen to anyone.
For all the talk of how doing a PhD is terrible, friendships in a college-like environment after undergrad was a bright point for me and many others. I moved and started a 9 to 5 last year and it's quite a change in lifestyle, and at 30 it's striking to start to deeply understand this same life transition many friends from high school and undergrad experienced 7 years ago already.
Just wait for the transition to parenthood.
If possible, try to time it with your closest friends because otherwise you'll rapidly run out of both 'lifestyle in common' and time.
(Tangentially: I've been thinking a lot about the theme of 'lifestyle in common' ever since both my parents and in-laws have retired and almost instantly assume that, because they can schedule 100% of their day, that we can too: my mother organised a family gathering for a Tuesday lunch - "Mum, I'll be at work, in the city, and the kids are at school...". This extrapolates in interesting ways as well)
If possible, try to time it with your closest friends because otherwise you'll rapidly run out of both 'lifestyle in common' and time.
(Tangentially: I've been thinking a lot about the theme of 'lifestyle in common' ever since both my parents and in-laws have retired and almost instantly assume that, because they can schedule 100% of their day, that we can too: my mother organised a family gathering for a Tuesday lunch - "Mum, I'll be at work, in the city, and the kids are at school...". This extrapolates in interesting ways as well)
On the flip side, when you have kids suddenly every other person you've ever known with kids of a similar age will come out of the woodwork to say hello. :)
doing a PhD was one of the worst experiences of my life.
friendships in a college-like environment durring the PhD was a bright point for me and many others and one of the best experiences of my life.
friendships in a college-like environment durring the PhD was a bright point for me and many others and one of the best experiences of my life.
I’ve genuinely consider it but after several years of trying to go back I’ve come to the conclusions schools hate non traditional students.
Reminds me of an Episode of That 70s Show, when the mom is asking the dad about how it seems he doesn't have any friends. He says he does and names someone he hasn't seen in years but would give him the shirt off his back.
I have a couple friendships like that. Not all friendships look the same.
I have a couple friendships like that. Not all friendships look the same.
Dads on many family sitcoms don’t seem to have friends. I guess it’s a sad reflection of a typical situation
The so called "friends" always look to take advantage of you or make you act against your own interest so they can feel better than yourself and then when there is an opportunity they'll backstab you.
My life has become so much better when I cut all contact with all people I used to know - turns out they weren't friends anyway.
That being said, I limit my contacts to strictly business. If something does not benefit me, I don't engage.
No more stress, no more drama, more free time, more enjoyment.
My life has become so much better when I cut all contact with all people I used to know - turns out they weren't friends anyway.
That being said, I limit my contacts to strictly business. If something does not benefit me, I don't engage.
No more stress, no more drama, more free time, more enjoyment.
The reality is most friendships aren't healthy or worse are extremely limiting. People who still have friends from childhood into late adulthood are mostly likely insecure and haven't grown up at all. Exceptions to this do exist, but 9 out of 10 this holds steady.
Sorry to hear that. Do you fear being lonely
I don't feel lonely. I used to, but when I dug deep into those feelings I realised it was mostly because of the social construct that are being imposed upon us and peer pressure. People say "how come you don't have friends? What's wrong with you?" which can make one anxious and wanting to belong and which can be misconstrued as feeling lonely.
People also used to need friends, so that they could share their experiences and gain knowledge how to deal with life situations. For instance, if you found yourself in debt or having trouble at work, you would ask a friend for advice what to do or look for reassurances that you are doing the right thing.
Usually though your "friend" would know about this just as much as you do, resulting in poor advice or they would use that private information in the future against you or to get some advantage.
Now, thanks to internet, you can get expert advice for cheap and the risk of your personal information being used against you is much much lower.
I think friendships were an evolutionary stop for information exchange and now that we have something much better, it will eventually fade away.
"Someone to talk to, someone to depend on, and someone to enjoy."
Perhaps this is just due to the fact that I've never had a friend, but I'm not sure what the difference is between what the professor is describing and say a sex worker or escort. So long as the client can afford to, all of those criteria are fulfilled.
Is there something I'm missing?
Perhaps this is just due to the fact that I've never had a friend, but I'm not sure what the difference is between what the professor is describing and say a sex worker or escort. So long as the client can afford to, all of those criteria are fulfilled.
Is there something I'm missing?
>Is there something I'm missing?
Yes, but it's difficult to describe in words.
Part of it is the reassurance of knowing that there's someone you can depend on when times get tough. An escort wouldn't help you back onto your feet if you lost everything; they'd just move onto the next client.
The "talk" you get from a paid relationship is different too. For starters, they're not going to risk losing your business by telling you a difficult truth that you need to hear. This could cause you to become offended, after all, and isn't their place to tell you.
Yes, but it's difficult to describe in words.
Part of it is the reassurance of knowing that there's someone you can depend on when times get tough. An escort wouldn't help you back onto your feet if you lost everything; they'd just move onto the next client.
The "talk" you get from a paid relationship is different too. For starters, they're not going to risk losing your business by telling you a difficult truth that you need to hear. This could cause you to become offended, after all, and isn't their place to tell you.
yes. A friend is also someone that depends on you, that enjoys you, that is excited when they see you.
That sounds like a dog.
That sounds like a dog.
Dogs are pack animals, just as humans are, and part of the reason we like them, is because they have and bond via traits we... wait for it... like!
And while dogs have a very specific place in our society, that does not mean human friendships, built upon the same ideals and core fundamentals, are the same.
But you knew that, I presume?
Dogs are pack animals, just as humans are, and part of the reason we like them, is because they have and bond via traits we... wait for it... like!
And while dogs have a very specific place in our society, that does not mean human friendships, built upon the same ideals and core fundamentals, are the same.
But you knew that, I presume?
They dont call dogs mans best friend for no reason.
I love my dog almost as much as I love my friends, but I’d feel sorry for someone who isn’t able to see the difference between the kinds of joy those relationships can bring a person.
I agree with Cat Stevens:
I love my dog as much as I love you
But you may fade, my dog will always come through
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Dogs of course evolved these qualities for survival, and to collaborate with people. A dog must ensure their owner lives them.
A friend will tell you you're an asshole. Paid help might, but only after being paid.
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Yes. Bribing someone so you can rape them for an hour or so is very different to nurturing a relationship of trust over a period of months or years.
If things on your life seem dark right now, know that its temporary. Getting help is always an option
Bribing and rape? Explain?
Bribing and rape? Explain?
I prefer not to use the "sex worker" euphemism. Those who have exited this abusive industry often refer to it as paid rape, so I follow their lead on this.
Also in fact it is often not even a bribe, in cases of sex slavery and human trafficking. The john is paying someone else to organize the rape for him.
Also in fact it is often not even a bribe, in cases of sex slavery and human trafficking. The john is paying someone else to organize the rape for him.
That seems like a biased sample. People who exit are obviously people who didn't want to be in the industry. Try talking to people in it willingly.
Why are people so quick to remove all agency from women?
I find it hard to believe these women have no other options than to sell their body.
I find it hard to believe these women have no other options than to sell their body.
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> “That is how friendships continue, because people are living up to each other’s expectations. And if we have relaxed expectations for each other, or we’ve even suspended expectations, there’s a sense in which we realize that,” Rawlins says. “A summer when you’re 10, three months is one-thirtieth of your life. When you’re 30, what is it? It feels like the blink of an eye.”
I've been thinking a lot about this recently, and if it's possible to slow my perception of time. Life moved really fast during covid for me, I've tried to jump into new opportunities to learn things recently, and that's helped slow down my perception of time, and least I think for right now.
I've been thinking a lot about this recently, and if it's possible to slow my perception of time. Life moved really fast during covid for me, I've tried to jump into new opportunities to learn things recently, and that's helped slow down my perception of time, and least I think for right now.
Friendships? What a useless concept.
Friends come and go and are as reliable as Italian sports car.
People who I've thought of as good friends don't return texts or calls and when they do, the answer either is one party putting out all of the effort to spend time or worse an, "I'd love to see you but there are other people on tryong to see too."
Last person who said that to me was met with a, "well darn sorry I called, go ahead and delete my number."
Here's a fun challenge to test the value of your friend ships: stop initiating contact and see if they'll put forth effort to maintain the friendship. If no, then they really weren't your friend.
Friends come and go and are as reliable as Italian sports car.
People who I've thought of as good friends don't return texts or calls and when they do, the answer either is one party putting out all of the effort to spend time or worse an, "I'd love to see you but there are other people on tryong to see too."
Last person who said that to me was met with a, "well darn sorry I called, go ahead and delete my number."
Here's a fun challenge to test the value of your friend ships: stop initiating contact and see if they'll put forth effort to maintain the friendship. If no, then they really weren't your friend.
Not to be mean, but maybe you don’t have very good friends? Everyone knows some acquaintances but true friendships are super valuable.
Problem is, I find it very difficult to define the boundaries of "true friendship" because I have not had any events in my life that tested those friendships.
Family (at least the ideal functional family) as portrayed in media, and that I have seen in my parents' generation is supposed to be the fail-safe support system that has your back no matter what. True friendships are supposed to be "almost as good". I can point to several instances where family members rallied together to bail out another family member from a crisis. I have never seen this happen in my friends circle.
Not that I think it is not possible, some of us have been friends since middle school, and we regularly keep tabs on each other over phone despite many of us being in different locations. But in a time of crisis, how far would they go to help me out? I really don't know. And looking at history (my own family's history and general anecdotes), I'm going to guess nowhere near as far as what family would do for you.
I obviously still value the friendship and ensure I don't miss meet-ups (real or virtual), but I have come to the conclusion that even "strong friendships" have hard ceilings. These ceilings are almost impossible to breach and I imagine only something like literally saving your friend's life could promote you to the next tier. I agree with the saying "Blood is thicker than water".
Family (at least the ideal functional family) as portrayed in media, and that I have seen in my parents' generation is supposed to be the fail-safe support system that has your back no matter what. True friendships are supposed to be "almost as good". I can point to several instances where family members rallied together to bail out another family member from a crisis. I have never seen this happen in my friends circle.
Not that I think it is not possible, some of us have been friends since middle school, and we regularly keep tabs on each other over phone despite many of us being in different locations. But in a time of crisis, how far would they go to help me out? I really don't know. And looking at history (my own family's history and general anecdotes), I'm going to guess nowhere near as far as what family would do for you.
I obviously still value the friendship and ensure I don't miss meet-ups (real or virtual), but I have come to the conclusion that even "strong friendships" have hard ceilings. These ceilings are almost impossible to breach and I imagine only something like literally saving your friend's life could promote you to the next tier. I agree with the saying "Blood is thicker than water".
> Especially for people who have the privilege and the blessing of being able to go to college
There are many people for whom going to college was the direct result of hard work, self agency, and determination.
There are many people for whom going to college was the direct result of hard work, self agency, and determination.
If my friends were all still living in the same street, or the same house, with all their kids (and sometimes grandkids), it’d be much easier to drop by unannounced.
We could spontaneously decide to do the same things if we saw someone go out in the morning.
Since my old friends are now on the other side of the world, we have to make do with the new friends/parents that actually live in our street.
It helps that the houses are small, so we actually have like 10 families on a 25 meter stretch of road.
We could spontaneously decide to do the same things if we saw someone go out in the morning.
Since my old friends are now on the other side of the world, we have to make do with the new friends/parents that actually live in our street.
It helps that the houses are small, so we actually have like 10 families on a 25 meter stretch of road.
What i care: Health, sports, peace of soul, ability to learn, science, music, programming, mathematics.
What my "friends" care: Money, more money, more money.
That's why i'm still lonely.
What my "friends" care: Money, more money, more money.
That's why i'm still lonely.
Hey!
I got lonely/depressed in 2020 and started a hiking group. It was a cool experiment that failed. I was not able to monetize or scale it. I was bummed for awhile, but upon further reflection I examine the Pareto 80/20 in action. Because I started this group I met some amazing people that love adventure and plan/invite me to their adventures. I also met a very good friend who is focused on business/start up life. So my life has improved a lot even though the outcome was not what I was hoping for.
I'm still on the journey to understand and operate in my zone of genius. Though I think money is important (to the extent that bills are paid and 9-5 can be avoided) I value experiences and creating impact.
Let me know if you'd like to connect.
I got lonely/depressed in 2020 and started a hiking group. It was a cool experiment that failed. I was not able to monetize or scale it. I was bummed for awhile, but upon further reflection I examine the Pareto 80/20 in action. Because I started this group I met some amazing people that love adventure and plan/invite me to their adventures. I also met a very good friend who is focused on business/start up life. So my life has improved a lot even though the outcome was not what I was hoping for.
I'm still on the journey to understand and operate in my zone of genius. Though I think money is important (to the extent that bills are paid and 9-5 can be avoided) I value experiences and creating impact.
Let me know if you'd like to connect.
If this is satire, this is Grade A satire.
A-. It would be grade A if it ended with a crypto story.
Incorrect.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CFKIbIghK5t/?igshid=NDk5N2NlZjQ=
I'm not trying to use satire. My attempts at building community in a busy and fragmented world. :)
https://www.instagram.com/p/CFKIbIghK5t/?igshid=NDk5N2NlZjQ=
I'm not trying to use satire. My attempts at building community in a busy and fragmented world. :)
It's very concerning to others and myself why you think attempting to "monetize or scale" a hiking group is normal.
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Look for local communities in your areas of interest. To some extent, you also have to put yourself out there.
You're the bait with which you're fishing.
You're the bait with which you're fishing.
No, it's from my childhood. All people i met don't have the same passion as mine. I just accepted the truth and no longer care what others do anymore.
COnsider this as a confession, no need to up/down vote.
COnsider this as a confession, no need to up/down vote.
To use your 4x money argument - Why couldn't you care at least about 2x money? Or even 1x money? For the sake of being friends with your "friends"?
Friendship isn't an all or nothing proposition. You don't have to be perfectly aligned with another persons' morals and values to be friends with them. Sometimes just having one or two things in common is what is needed to keep those bonds going.
Friendship isn't an all or nothing proposition. You don't have to be perfectly aligned with another persons' morals and values to be friends with them. Sometimes just having one or two things in common is what is needed to keep those bonds going.
We’re emigrating soon, to Sydney Australia. I’m 49, she’s 45. I love the friends we have here and am going to miss them hugely.
I’ve found friends through work, university, cycling, kids. I’ll need to ramp this up and be proactive because it won’t just happen without effort, given the demands on our time. But I’ll miss the 30-year relationships that take zero energy to be around, where you can take a mental snapshot of pure contentment.
I’ve found friends through work, university, cycling, kids. I’ll need to ramp this up and be proactive because it won’t just happen without effort, given the demands on our time. But I’ll miss the 30-year relationships that take zero energy to be around, where you can take a mental snapshot of pure contentment.
So the best advice I would give anyone is spend your college years making friends because in my experience your ability to make and maintain friendships falls off a cliff after college.
The first issue is your friendships begin tracking your life stage. Using a normative example, single people will tend to be friends with single people and married people will tend to be friends with other married people. Likewise, people will children will tend to be friends with other people with children.
This acts as a shared experience just by proximity. If people aren't in the same life stage that friendship tends to be trasnactional or unstable. By "transactional" I mean you might be friends with people in your softball league or who play basketball with on the weekend but mostly those friendships will tend to revolve around that common interest or activity. maybe that'll develop into a deeper friendship but the odds are against it.
Likewise, you will develop "work friends" by virtue of spending so much of your time at work. For the most part however these aren't friends at all. If you leave that job, that shared shared experience ends and you will likely never see them again. Maybe you'll promise to catch up. Maybe it'll happen once or twice but again it's now in an unstable state and won't tend to last.
As time goes on your friends will be replaced by family.
The only way friendships in adulthood tend to survive (IME) is by scheduled activities. You set the expectation that that's what you'll be doing at a particular day and time. That's why you'll see sports so often here because a softball game needs to be played at a particular place and time. Pick-up basketball however is less the case for this so you'll likely see the same people less.
It's also why parenthood tends to spell the end for many such friendships. If you have 2 young children at home it makes it harder to maintain a scheduled activity long-term. There'll be times your children will be sick, you'll need to go to school or whatever.
The first issue is your friendships begin tracking your life stage. Using a normative example, single people will tend to be friends with single people and married people will tend to be friends with other married people. Likewise, people will children will tend to be friends with other people with children.
This acts as a shared experience just by proximity. If people aren't in the same life stage that friendship tends to be trasnactional or unstable. By "transactional" I mean you might be friends with people in your softball league or who play basketball with on the weekend but mostly those friendships will tend to revolve around that common interest or activity. maybe that'll develop into a deeper friendship but the odds are against it.
Likewise, you will develop "work friends" by virtue of spending so much of your time at work. For the most part however these aren't friends at all. If you leave that job, that shared shared experience ends and you will likely never see them again. Maybe you'll promise to catch up. Maybe it'll happen once or twice but again it's now in an unstable state and won't tend to last.
As time goes on your friends will be replaced by family.
The only way friendships in adulthood tend to survive (IME) is by scheduled activities. You set the expectation that that's what you'll be doing at a particular day and time. That's why you'll see sports so often here because a softball game needs to be played at a particular place and time. Pick-up basketball however is less the case for this so you'll likely see the same people less.
It's also why parenthood tends to spell the end for many such friendships. If you have 2 young children at home it makes it harder to maintain a scheduled activity long-term. There'll be times your children will be sick, you'll need to go to school or whatever.
> The first issue is your friendships begin tracking your life stage. Using a normative example, single people will tend to be friends with single people and married people will tend to be friends with other married people. Likewise, people will children will tend to be friends with other people with children.
This has been the hardest thing about being in my 30s as a single (and not particularly looking) lesbian woman. It's an unusual enough life choice that there just plain isn't a friendship pool. Most single people my age are low-key using their friend gatherings to look for partners. So my options for friends are either much older or much younger. I have more in common with the kids (gaming, techy stuff, etc.) but society says you're a creep if you do that so I'm basically alone. It sucks.
I don't want a partner, but man I wish I wanted one.
This has been the hardest thing about being in my 30s as a single (and not particularly looking) lesbian woman. It's an unusual enough life choice that there just plain isn't a friendship pool. Most single people my age are low-key using their friend gatherings to look for partners. So my options for friends are either much older or much younger. I have more in common with the kids (gaming, techy stuff, etc.) but society says you're a creep if you do that so I'm basically alone. It sucks.
I don't want a partner, but man I wish I wanted one.
When I was single, I had mostly female friends who I hung out with, traveled with, etc. I had no interest in being in a relationship with them. But when I got remarried, they went to wayside. Not because of jealousy. Just because I didn’t need the drama.
A major cause of first marriage ending was emotional infidelity on both sides.
I work remotely in consulting (full time job in the consulting department at $Bigtech) and teams only last as long as a project last.
It’s even harder now that my wife and I are “digital nomadding” flying across the US and not setting up roots anywhere.
My one close friend that I’ve kept in touch with since high school 30 years ago has small kids now. We try to squeeze time in. But it’s hard.
A major cause of first marriage ending was emotional infidelity on both sides.
I work remotely in consulting (full time job in the consulting department at $Bigtech) and teams only last as long as a project last.
It’s even harder now that my wife and I are “digital nomadding” flying across the US and not setting up roots anywhere.
My one close friend that I’ve kept in touch with since high school 30 years ago has small kids now. We try to squeeze time in. But it’s hard.
From the same evil imbeciles who want "Pandemic Amnesty".
stop giving them attention.
Having friends in childhood/pubescence is a survival level necessity for most of the kids. We all know countless examples of awful things done to keep or gain the position in school/class hierarchy, to fulfill expectations, to deserve respect of peers.
This urge dissolves in most of the people towards adulthood and maturity, when we are learning to find inner support, to form our own opinion about ourselves and to rely on that opinion more than on an external judgement.
This urge dissolves in most of the people towards adulthood and maturity, when we are learning to find inner support, to form our own opinion about ourselves and to rely on that opinion more than on an external judgement.
The norm that you need friends is so hardwired in society that it's taboo to even suggest you can be happy without them.
Perhaps the main quantitative difference is that on average you spend considerably less time with your friends as an adult than you did as a child.
(2015) — but presumably not that much has changed?
It all depends on how friendship is defined. There are shallow friendship and deep friendship.
I thought a lot about this over the pandemic.
I was always shy in grade school (heck, who are we kidding, I'm still shy). We moved around a bunch and after we left what I consider the closest thing I have to a hometown, making friends was rough. There's only 4 people I talk to (occasionally at best) from childhood/adolescence. It's weird. People talk about having friends as adolescents and discovering themselves through their friend groups. Article calls out learning to be intimate as well. I honestly feel like I missed out on that. My self discovery was honestly done mostly alone for the most part as my passions formed a kind of constant I could depend on. I only really had surface level connections, mostly through video games.
College was a huge breakout moment for me. I was surrounded by people who were interested in the same kinds of things I was! I ended up building a major social presence on campus through our computing clubs. I just liked talking shop with people and would help with homework and personal projects. Made a lot of good friends. Now here I am, in the last months of my 20s, and I'm rather proud that I'm still in contact with the vast majority of them.
Being in a California school studying CS, most of them ended up in the Bay. Some immediately left for Seattle or Austin, others did later. I ended up in Irvine as I did an internship at the socal office of one of the tech companies.
It was hard. My entire social world imploded over a few months. Dozens of people to talk to on campus immediately went to zero once I started working. I liked my coworkers and it was fun to talk shop with them, but there was a big age gap that made it hard to form personal connections. There's only one in or two coworkers who I became close enough to to, say, ask for a ride to a doctor.
I'd wake up, and it'd be quiet. I'd get home from work, and it'd still be quiet.
Thankfully a few months in, a friend suggested we put together a discord server of all our collective friends from school. Started at 10 people nearly every night playing games and talking about work and life. Not everyone joined, as this was fairly gaming focused. I swear this Discord group was the only thing that kept me sane over the 4 years I was down there.
Then the pandemic. Work went indefinitely full-remote and I was still living alone (27 years old and I was still not happy enough with myself to try dating). I moved back in with family and cancelled my lease once it became apparent that it was going to last awhile.
That saw me back up near the Bay. I didn't see anyone in 2020 because we all took COVID seriously (discord group was our coping mechanism), but after the vaccines in 2021, work was still fully-remote so took advantage of my location to start regularly seeing friends I hadn't been able to see much since college.
I hadn't been that happy in a long time.
2022 comes around and offices start to reopen. I'm looking at the logistics of moving back to Irvine. One of my friends asks why I'm moving back to SoCal if I was clearly so much happier in the Bay. I was close to friends, close to family, etc. Why not try to stay.
Considering many at my company seemed to prefer remote work anyways, I figured that I should ask about making my relocation permanent and moving to the main office up here. Approved immediately with zero resistance - and I on top of that I got a sizeable raise for the cost of living increase.
So I found an apartment in city with good access to public transit. I see friends multiple times a week now. We have a weekly movie and game night, regularly meet up for dinner in the week or weekend, etc. People's spouses, girl/boyfriends, etc. are part of the friend group.
I feel like I regained something I thought I'd lost forever. It's been a surreal and happy six months since I've moved here.
Friends are important, at least to me. No one should tell you any different. There's a reason some call them found family.
I was always shy in grade school (heck, who are we kidding, I'm still shy). We moved around a bunch and after we left what I consider the closest thing I have to a hometown, making friends was rough. There's only 4 people I talk to (occasionally at best) from childhood/adolescence. It's weird. People talk about having friends as adolescents and discovering themselves through their friend groups. Article calls out learning to be intimate as well. I honestly feel like I missed out on that. My self discovery was honestly done mostly alone for the most part as my passions formed a kind of constant I could depend on. I only really had surface level connections, mostly through video games.
College was a huge breakout moment for me. I was surrounded by people who were interested in the same kinds of things I was! I ended up building a major social presence on campus through our computing clubs. I just liked talking shop with people and would help with homework and personal projects. Made a lot of good friends. Now here I am, in the last months of my 20s, and I'm rather proud that I'm still in contact with the vast majority of them.
Being in a California school studying CS, most of them ended up in the Bay. Some immediately left for Seattle or Austin, others did later. I ended up in Irvine as I did an internship at the socal office of one of the tech companies.
It was hard. My entire social world imploded over a few months. Dozens of people to talk to on campus immediately went to zero once I started working. I liked my coworkers and it was fun to talk shop with them, but there was a big age gap that made it hard to form personal connections. There's only one in or two coworkers who I became close enough to to, say, ask for a ride to a doctor.
I'd wake up, and it'd be quiet. I'd get home from work, and it'd still be quiet.
Thankfully a few months in, a friend suggested we put together a discord server of all our collective friends from school. Started at 10 people nearly every night playing games and talking about work and life. Not everyone joined, as this was fairly gaming focused. I swear this Discord group was the only thing that kept me sane over the 4 years I was down there.
Then the pandemic. Work went indefinitely full-remote and I was still living alone (27 years old and I was still not happy enough with myself to try dating). I moved back in with family and cancelled my lease once it became apparent that it was going to last awhile.
That saw me back up near the Bay. I didn't see anyone in 2020 because we all took COVID seriously (discord group was our coping mechanism), but after the vaccines in 2021, work was still fully-remote so took advantage of my location to start regularly seeing friends I hadn't been able to see much since college.
I hadn't been that happy in a long time.
2022 comes around and offices start to reopen. I'm looking at the logistics of moving back to Irvine. One of my friends asks why I'm moving back to SoCal if I was clearly so much happier in the Bay. I was close to friends, close to family, etc. Why not try to stay.
Considering many at my company seemed to prefer remote work anyways, I figured that I should ask about making my relocation permanent and moving to the main office up here. Approved immediately with zero resistance - and I on top of that I got a sizeable raise for the cost of living increase.
So I found an apartment in city with good access to public transit. I see friends multiple times a week now. We have a weekly movie and game night, regularly meet up for dinner in the week or weekend, etc. People's spouses, girl/boyfriends, etc. are part of the friend group.
I feel like I regained something I thought I'd lost forever. It's been a surreal and happy six months since I've moved here.
Friends are important, at least to me. No one should tell you any different. There's a reason some call them found family.
@dang, I submitted "How Friendships Change in Adulthood" and of course the title posted missed the initial "how".
I think it's the worst feature of HN. This is a good example of a title that becomes far worse when "how" is removed, IMHO.
I hope this feature gets canceled.
I think it's the worst feature of HN. This is a good example of a title that becomes far worse when "how" is removed, IMHO.
I hope this feature gets canceled.
HN always renames the titles to be garbage. Either automatically or manual.
At the very least, these title edits should be opt-in where user use given options and supplied with the related reasoning — not just automatically done without warning.
I'm also unsure of whether this is a good rule, but it's one with an easy workaround. As another poster mentioned, the solution is to just edit the title after you submit it. The "How" removal only affects the initial submission. Subsequent edits aren't subject to the same automatic rule.
Sometimes you can edit the submission to put things back in / fix capitalization (for an hour).
Disagree that its far worse, I dont see an issue in this case
It means something completely different than the author or submitter intended. How is that not worse?
FWIW, headlines are frequently not written by the author of the article
Come on, the giggle when it rewrites "How I write" into "I write" is totally worth it.
The sad part is that it doesn't have to be this way. The notion that friendship is something you make time for (to the detriment of your other pursuits) seems to be very modern, very Western and an absolutely terrible idea.
Just anecdotally, the friendships where people rely on one another for assistance - helping one another achieve their goals rather than hindering them - seem to get stronger and stronger whereas the "let's catch up" friends seem to wither over time.
Somewhat counter-intuitively, doing simple things like giving a friend a lift when their car breaks down, providing them with meals when they're unable to cook for themselves or helping them move house actually cause you to value the relationship more.