By 2028 there must be fast chargers every 60 km on the EU’s key motorways(fleeteurope.com)
fleeteurope.com
By 2028 there must be fast chargers every 60 km on the EU’s key motorways
https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/article/fast-chargers-every-60-km-key-eu-motorways?a=FJA05&t%5B0%5D=Charging&curl=1
236 comments
Then why not require cash payment as an option. Vending machines have been able to do that for well over half a century.
There’s a lot of complication involved there. Someone has to come by regularly, take the deposited money, put in the appropriate number of coins to give change, the machines break regularly, yadda yadda.
I’m annoyed by todays cashless society too but there aren’t good answers to these problems.
I’m annoyed by todays cashless society too but there aren’t good answers to these problems.
Not only that, the sums involved and siting (relatively unprotected) are going to be very attractive to theft, driving up the cost to secure.
Sell prepaid cards at approved vendors and in more centralized vending machines which take cash. Kind of like most public transit cards.
This was also an issue with mobile phone payments, it was solved then, it can be solved today.
This was also an issue with mobile phone payments, it was solved then, it can be solved today.
It makes a lot more sense for public transit, though: they’re located in dense cities with many vendors nearby. Same can’t be said of a car charging network.
This was actually talked about here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36816539 tldr; Money laundering is the bigger issue.
However if we ignore the problem with money laundering, prepaid cards can still be a nice option for many people. If you are about to leave for a road trip you just make sure your card has enough money on it to cover the trip, then you don’t have to worry about your phone dying or your bank card failing etc. which can get you stranded.
However if we ignore the problem with money laundering, prepaid cards can still be a nice option for many people. If you are about to leave for a road trip you just make sure your card has enough money on it to cover the trip, then you don’t have to worry about your phone dying or your bank card failing etc. which can get you stranded.
> I’m annoyed by todays cashless society too but there aren’t good answers to these problems.
Those problems have been solved for generations. The solutions aren’t free and require some work, but it’s a little crazy to say there “there aren’t good answers to these problems.” If they mandated that cash should be accepted, the companies would figure it out and it really would be fine.
Those problems have been solved for generations. The solutions aren’t free and require some work, but it’s a little crazy to say there “there aren’t good answers to these problems.” If they mandated that cash should be accepted, the companies would figure it out and it really would be fine.
Probably the cost associated with storing, counting, insuring, securing, depositing the money. I get the privacy aspect but then why not get a prepaid credit card or something like that?
AFAIK as part of anti-money-laundering (AML) efforts, most places require ID when you try to buy prepaid cards with cash.
Is that an EU thing? In the US you can buy as many $500 visa cards as you want at any grocery store with no ID. You may need a manager's override if you're buying over $10,000 but that's just to verify that you're not falling for a gift card scam.
Converting >$10k from card to cash on the other hand often requires an ID
Converting >$10k from card to cash on the other hand often requires an ID
> In the US you can buy as many $500 visa cards as you want at any grocery store with no ID.
Canada requires retaining a record of the ID used to buy the prepaid credit cards, too.
https://fintrac-canafe.canada.ca/guidance-directives/client-...
Canada requires retaining a record of the ID used to buy the prepaid credit cards, too.
https://fintrac-canafe.canada.ca/guidance-directives/client-...
Sounds reasonable. You are still anonymous towards the merchant when you use the prepaid card
I didn't know that, thanks, yeah it's the same here in Canada, EU presumably too.
Well, then we're SOL and won't be able to charge our cars (fully) anonymously.
Well, then we're SOL and won't be able to charge our cars (fully) anonymously.
But maybe not for the amounts we talk about when it comes to charging. Thinking of it, I cannot remember whem I last saw someone pay cash at a gas station. Most pay by card.
[deleted]
We have a lot of unmanned stations here. No option for cash payments so most will just pay with card. And it seems to work well enough.
EU is broadly moving to a cashless economy. There are certainly not going to be any new laws that mandate cash payment. The opposite is happening all the time, with more and more things becoming impossible to buy with cash.
I think this war is well and truly lost. Cashless systems are superior in every single way aside from privacy.
Because it's the EU. Several member states are basically entirely cashless
It mentions chargers, but from my quick perusal, it doesn't mention how many stalls per charger station.
EV charge stations have a slower throughput than petrol stations, and that means you require more stalls to cover the same number of cars.
One of Tesla's "killer" feature is not just the number of charge stations, but also the number of stalls per station; there are usually 8 per station, though exceptions are abound. But it increase the likely hood that you will have access to a stall when you reach the station.
EV charge stations have a slower throughput than petrol stations, and that means you require more stalls to cover the same number of cars.
One of Tesla's "killer" feature is not just the number of charge stations, but also the number of stalls per station; there are usually 8 per station, though exceptions are abound. But it increase the likely hood that you will have access to a stall when you reach the station.
Aren't those for profit infrastructure? IMHO they will put as many as needed for the region.
These legislations are not intended to design the infrastructure but to enforce minimal availability at places where there's no enough commercial reasons to build one. The idea is that regions not lucrative enough shouldn't be left behind because when left behind in infrastructure people start migrating to other places and make the problems even more severe.
So, the companies and and probably the countries will have to foot the bill for bringing the infrastructure to such places and the expenses for number of stalls is probably a rounding error in contrast to the expense of building the first one. We will end up having 1 stall where it's rarely needed and as many stalls needed at places where the demand is hight.
These legislations are not intended to design the infrastructure but to enforce minimal availability at places where there's no enough commercial reasons to build one. The idea is that regions not lucrative enough shouldn't be left behind because when left behind in infrastructure people start migrating to other places and make the problems even more severe.
So, the companies and and probably the countries will have to foot the bill for bringing the infrastructure to such places and the expenses for number of stalls is probably a rounding error in contrast to the expense of building the first one. We will end up having 1 stall where it's rarely needed and as many stalls needed at places where the demand is hight.
Imagine the situation of the company installing chargers.
They're fitting a curve between expense of (installation and maintenance) vs (profit from charges sold).
It's reasonable that a company would want to minimize their expense by installing fewer chargers, while maximizing profit by ensuring that all their equipment is utilized as much of the time as possible.
The charger company doesn't want to have chargers that are only utilized during peak moments but still need to be serviced and paid for.
This comes at the expense of consumers who will suffer longer queues.
They're fitting a curve between expense of (installation and maintenance) vs (profit from charges sold).
It's reasonable that a company would want to minimize their expense by installing fewer chargers, while maximizing profit by ensuring that all their equipment is utilized as much of the time as possible.
The charger company doesn't want to have chargers that are only utilized during peak moments but still need to be serviced and paid for.
This comes at the expense of consumers who will suffer longer queues.
> They're fitting a curve between expense of (installation and maintenance) vs (profit from charges sold).
Interesting, as there's clearly a high up-front cost from some of: contract negotiation/land purchase or rent/electricity infrastructure/charger parts/charger installation, and an ongoing cost of maintenance and electricity.
I wonder how big the fixed upfront costs are (especially land-related, and electricity infra) versus the physical charger itself? I have a sneaking suspicion that the chargers themselves may be a surprisingly small part of the overall cost.
This[0] suggests that Tesla may also have optimised the cost of their superchargers (assuming they weren't pricing them down for the bid discussed.)
[0] https://electrek.co/2022/04/15/tesla-cost-deploy-supercharge...
Interesting, as there's clearly a high up-front cost from some of: contract negotiation/land purchase or rent/electricity infrastructure/charger parts/charger installation, and an ongoing cost of maintenance and electricity.
I wonder how big the fixed upfront costs are (especially land-related, and electricity infra) versus the physical charger itself? I have a sneaking suspicion that the chargers themselves may be a surprisingly small part of the overall cost.
This[0] suggests that Tesla may also have optimised the cost of their superchargers (assuming they weren't pricing them down for the bid discussed.)
[0] https://electrek.co/2022/04/15/tesla-cost-deploy-supercharge...
Looking at how new motorway here was build ~15 years ago. The road and land might be most expensive parts. Ramps, and possibly bridges don't come cheap. Or then you need duplicated infra. That is separate charging stations on each side.
Next part is probably power. Transmission new substation are likely needed to supply for demand. And it is unlikely to be available. Lines might or might not be present.
Next part is probably power. Transmission new substation are likely needed to supply for demand. And it is unlikely to be available. Lines might or might not be present.
Well, EU is a free market with safeguards. The libertarians hate EU because they believe that it's a socialist organisation, the hard left hates EU because they believe that EU is a neoliberal one.
None of these would be happy, EU won't let companies optimize for absolute profit in the expense of society and EU won't act as a central planner which will turn the companies into a non-profits which build to comfort the electorate.
I guess the situation on peak hours will improve as the battery tech improves. The tech problems won't be solved through regulations, EU would intervene only if the issues are caused by suboptimal market conditions like monopoly trying to milk the customers or the for-profit institutions fail to provide the services and cause issues(like not installing charger at low demand locations).
None of these would be happy, EU won't let companies optimize for absolute profit in the expense of society and EU won't act as a central planner which will turn the companies into a non-profits which build to comfort the electorate.
I guess the situation on peak hours will improve as the battery tech improves. The tech problems won't be solved through regulations, EU would intervene only if the issues are caused by suboptimal market conditions like monopoly trying to milk the customers or the for-profit institutions fail to provide the services and cause issues(like not installing charger at low demand locations).
That, and the 400kW peak charging rate (most SuperChargers and batteries are only 250kW capable). With 3-4mi/kWh (7-10km/kWh) it's possible to get 100mi (150km) of charge in <5min. Even 100kW charging feels slow now (anything below 600mi/hr or 1200km/hr).
That's not quite as fast as partially filling your gas tank, but it's within a factor of a few. Of course then next 100km can take 2-3x longer as the rate slows down from peak. (p.s. there are a lot of stations in the US with 20+ SuperChargers and people tend to fill up to 80-90% when traveling. They must be pulling MW!)
That's not quite as fast as partially filling your gas tank, but it's within a factor of a few. Of course then next 100km can take 2-3x longer as the rate slows down from peak. (p.s. there are a lot of stations in the US with 20+ SuperChargers and people tend to fill up to 80-90% when traveling. They must be pulling MW!)
It's honestly hard to pull into a highway charging station and spend less than 10 minutes there, after 2.5 to 3 hours of driving. I've noticed that Tesla's Navigation seems to be optimizing for 10-15 minute stops, and I'm never finished in the rest stop by the time the car says it's ready to continue.
This is key. People don't care how long the total process takes. People care how much time they spend standing around with nothing to do, feeling bored.
A 15minute charging stop can FEEL shorter than a 5minute gas stop if you have to stand there and hold the gas pump handle the entire time vs walking away from your car and going to buy a snack or (in the case of Tesla, this was a excellent idea and not just a silly easter egg) sitting in your car for 15minutes playing a video game. My wife and I will happily spend 30minutes playing with the music synthesizer in my Tesla and forget that we finished charging after 20minutes.
A 15minute charging stop can FEEL shorter than a 5minute gas stop if you have to stand there and hold the gas pump handle the entire time vs walking away from your car and going to buy a snack or (in the case of Tesla, this was a excellent idea and not just a silly easter egg) sitting in your car for 15minutes playing a video game. My wife and I will happily spend 30minutes playing with the music synthesizer in my Tesla and forget that we finished charging after 20minutes.
Yes, charging can be quicker than filling with gasoline. 15 minutes charging can be done in parallel with the rest stop. OTOH 5 minutes filling with gasoline is done in serial with a bathroom break and buying a coffee.
> Yes, charging can be quicker than filling with gasoline. 15 minutes charging can be done in parallel with the rest stop. OTOH 5 minutes filling with gasoline is done in serial with a bathroom break and buying a coffee.
I see people fill their tanks unattended all the time. Probably not a good idea, but it happens.
I see people fill their tanks unattended all the time. Probably not a good idea, but it happens.
It's been years since I've encountered the required latch to fill a tank unattended.
Maybe it's country specific.
Maybe it's country specific.
> It's been years since I've encountered the required latch to fill a tank unattended.
> Maybe it's country specific.
Sounds like it.
In every state in the US that I've been in in the last 20 years (which is about 1/3 of them), I've never encountered a pump without the latch. I think most people use the latch when filling up, even though they're present - it's just much more convenient to have the filling process automatically stop when the tank is full.
> Maybe it's country specific.
Sounds like it.
In every state in the US that I've been in in the last 20 years (which is about 1/3 of them), I've never encountered a pump without the latch. I think most people use the latch when filling up, even though they're present - it's just much more convenient to have the filling process automatically stop when the tank is full.
I detest the smell of gas so every excuse to not touch anything is great for me.
I've seen people jam their fuel cap in the handle to keep it latched. Probably illegal and against the rules of the station, but also probably not catastrophically dangerous.
Every station I see in California has them. Hawaii doesn’t for some reason.
Filling unattended is illegal in many states.
> Filling unattended is illegal in many states.
So is driving over the speed limit and rolling through stop signs. And yet, here we are.
So is driving over the speed limit and rolling through stop signs. And yet, here we are.
> That, and the 400kW peak charging rate
400 kW chargers are already being deployed in Europe. Examples:
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR2M5W6saAk
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4ZWN_-a2j4
- https://fastnedcharging.com/hq/fastned-and-evbox-join-forces...
- https://fastnedcharging.com/hq/fastned-expands-into-denmark-...
Ionity's been installing 350 kW chargers for a long time and will start installing 400 kW chargers soon (like the Alpitronic HYC400).
Some 720 kW capable chargers are beginning to be installed such as the Willbert Amber II:
- https://www.willbert.tech/product/amber-ii-v2
- https://www.willbert.tech/blog/introducing-willbert-s-hub-te...
The individual Amber II chargers are 360 kW but they can be paired to share power dynamically via a DC bus. In that configuration it can deliver a maximum of 720 kW to a single plug.
400 kW chargers are already being deployed in Europe. Examples:
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR2M5W6saAk
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4ZWN_-a2j4
- https://fastnedcharging.com/hq/fastned-and-evbox-join-forces...
- https://fastnedcharging.com/hq/fastned-expands-into-denmark-...
Ionity's been installing 350 kW chargers for a long time and will start installing 400 kW chargers soon (like the Alpitronic HYC400).
Some 720 kW capable chargers are beginning to be installed such as the Willbert Amber II:
- https://www.willbert.tech/product/amber-ii-v2
- https://www.willbert.tech/blog/introducing-willbert-s-hub-te...
The individual Amber II chargers are 360 kW but they can be paired to share power dynamically via a DC bus. In that configuration it can deliver a maximum of 720 kW to a single plug.
Tesla is just one of many charging networks in Europe. All brands of charger charge all brands of EV in Europe.
Big charging locations are already being built. For example, this one is 13 Alpitronic 300 kW chargers, 26 charge ports: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMyz62dXPmc
This one has 10 Aliptronic 300 kW chargers, 20 charge ports: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpbtgfqrYdA
And often different charging networks deploy chargers near each other, so if one is full or expensive or performing poorly you can switch to another one.
Here's Fastned and Tesla living together and an EnBW station with 52 charge ports: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrDUuusBcTg
Here's Gridserve and Tesla living together: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoN4WCpuxHY
Big charging locations are already being built. For example, this one is 13 Alpitronic 300 kW chargers, 26 charge ports: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMyz62dXPmc
This one has 10 Aliptronic 300 kW chargers, 20 charge ports: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpbtgfqrYdA
And often different charging networks deploy chargers near each other, so if one is full or expensive or performing poorly you can switch to another one.
Here's Fastned and Tesla living together and an EnBW station with 52 charge ports: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrDUuusBcTg
Here's Gridserve and Tesla living together: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoN4WCpuxHY
> EV charge stations have a slower throughput than petrol stations, and that means you require more stalls to cover the same number of cars.
The thing that they say about EVs is "imagine if your car started with a full tank of gas every morning. How often would you use a filling station then?"
You can't simply compare "time to fill at the filling station, times number of stalls, is this number the same or else it's an issue". That math doesn't work. As the majority of trips are short, and the majority of charging is at home overnight, and even when on the road there are other charging options (for e.g. I usually see cars charging near my local shops on one of these https://www.sourcelondon.net/home) then the numbers are not directly comparable.
The thing that they say about EVs is "imagine if your car started with a full tank of gas every morning. How often would you use a filling station then?"
You can't simply compare "time to fill at the filling station, times number of stalls, is this number the same or else it's an issue". That math doesn't work. As the majority of trips are short, and the majority of charging is at home overnight, and even when on the road there are other charging options (for e.g. I usually see cars charging near my local shops on one of these https://www.sourcelondon.net/home) then the numbers are not directly comparable.
> and the majority of charging is at home overnight
Are there actually stats that show this?
What I hear anecdotally from friends (in Berlin and other bigger German cities) is that in the city it is often very hard to find charging spots. The problem is that in urban areas charging at home is almost never an option, as people live in apartments and not houses. There the parking is either done curbside (with curbside charging stations near your apartment being rare), or on the rented parking spot on the apartment building property (which landlords aren't exactly rushing to modernize).
Are there actually stats that show this?
What I hear anecdotally from friends (in Berlin and other bigger German cities) is that in the city it is often very hard to find charging spots. The problem is that in urban areas charging at home is almost never an option, as people live in apartments and not houses. There the parking is either done curbside (with curbside charging stations near your apartment being rare), or on the rented parking spot on the apartment building property (which landlords aren't exactly rushing to modernize).
His 80% figure is repeated a lot around the web but the source seems to be: https://natural-resources.canada.ca/energy-efficiency/spotli...
Which is interesting because only 55% of dwellings in Canada are single-family homes or semi detached condos (where you'd be able to have a home charger).
Just goes to show that as EV adoption goes up, the percentage of people able to charge at home will go down.
Which is interesting because only 55% of dwellings in Canada are single-family homes or semi detached condos (where you'd be able to have a home charger).
Just goes to show that as EV adoption goes up, the percentage of people able to charge at home will go down.
[deleted]
No-one is disputing the growing demand for charging infrastructure, or the unsolved problems in street-side or apartment parking-lot charging. That's not motorways though. It's not the same thing.
> Are there actually stats that show this?
In general yes, I see 80% of charging at home, but you can google this as well as I can.
Specifically for Berlin / inner city I don't know.
A point of denser city living is to lessen the need for private car ownership. I'm also in an apartment in London. We don't have a charger, but then we don't have a car either, we don't need one here.
In general yes, I see 80% of charging at home, but you can google this as well as I can.
Specifically for Berlin / inner city I don't know.
A point of denser city living is to lessen the need for private car ownership. I'm also in an apartment in London. We don't have a charger, but then we don't have a car either, we don't need one here.
This is about motorways and there I haven't seen a decrease in the amount of filling station stops just because it starts charged. If anything, electric has had an increase in fills required so far due to range limitations and the desire to avoid filling completely (for both charge time and battery wear).
Won't many motorway trips still be within EV range without a charge en route? i.e. under e.g. 200 miles.
I once had a long car commute for a while, with time spent on the M25 (a ring road around London, a major motorway / traffic jam) and that was still around 110 miles daily round trip. I could have done it daily on an overnight charge.
So maybe EVs doing a quick partial change out of "desire to avoid filling completely" which swings the numbers the other way. IDK how big these relative effects are, but this is another way in which the maths is different, the numbers are not directly comparable.
I once had a long car commute for a while, with time spent on the M25 (a ring road around London, a major motorway / traffic jam) and that was still around 110 miles daily round trip. I could have done it daily on an overnight charge.
So maybe EVs doing a quick partial change out of "desire to avoid filling completely" which swings the numbers the other way. IDK how big these relative effects are, but this is another way in which the maths is different, the numbers are not directly comparable.
In Europe, maybe. In the USA, a 400-600 mile drive is not unusual and within the radius of what I would consider driving vs. flying given the hassle of flying here.
> In Europe, maybe.
Article headline: "By 2028 there must be fast chargers every 60 km on the EU’s key motorways"
So yeah, the topic is Europe (EU and UK)
Of course 400-600 mile drives exist, just that they don't form a large proportion of car trips.
Article headline: "By 2028 there must be fast chargers every 60 km on the EU’s key motorways"
So yeah, the topic is Europe (EU and UK)
Of course 400-600 mile drives exist, just that they don't form a large proportion of car trips.
> So yeah, the topic is Europe (EU and UK)
Article is about the EU only, not the UK. Even their map deliberately leaves the UK blank.
Article is about the EU only, not the UK. Even their map deliberately leaves the UK blank.
The topic (as opposed to the article only) includes my personal anecdote above, which you might notice is in London, UK. I use words deliberately.
Parent comment phrase "in Europe" typically includes UK as well, not just EU members. I'm already more than comfortably aware that the EU does not include the UK.
But, UK habits are at present more like those on the continent of Europe than to USA. That's why I felt the anecdote relevant.
What was your point again?
Parent comment phrase "in Europe" typically includes UK as well, not just EU members. I'm already more than comfortably aware that the EU does not include the UK.
But, UK habits are at present more like those on the continent of Europe than to USA. That's why I felt the anecdote relevant.
What was your point again?
a 400-600 mile drive is not unusual? it's not unheard of, it's not out of the question, it's not a crazy distance for cities to be "away from" each other, but unless your job is "driver", it is not a "usual" thing to do except a few times a year. You're talking about a full day driving.
Yeah, "it happens a coupe of times per year, as opposed to a commute that I do multiple times a week" is stretching the definition of "usual" to breaking point.
In context though, it was about "how many charging bays do we really need, if some or many cars don't need to charge en route, or need it much less often?" so the semantic argument around "what does 'usual' even mean?" is a ridiculous distraction. These long trips of course exist but are not the largest percentage of cars on the road.
In context though, it was about "how many charging bays do we really need, if some or many cars don't need to charge en route, or need it much less often?" so the semantic argument around "what does 'usual' even mean?" is a ridiculous distraction. These long trips of course exist but are not the largest percentage of cars on the road.
People who live in apartments instead of single-family detached housing often have to park on the street. "at home overnight" is not near a charger. Even if they have dedicated parking they often can't install a charger into their landlord's property.
For a lot of people, it's true that they won't need charging stations. But for urban areas those stations will be more necessary than in suburban or many rural areas.
For a lot of people, it's true that they won't need charging stations. But for urban areas those stations will be more necessary than in suburban or many rural areas.
> imagine if your car started with a full tank of gas every morning
... designed by people living in suburban sprawls, for people living in suburban sprawls.
... designed by people living in suburban sprawls, for people living in suburban sprawls.
I would like to see lots of slow chargers at hotels. Being able to just plug in when you arrive and leave it overnight is more useful than a few quicker chargers where you need to switch cars between them.
In downtown metros of the largest US cities, hotels do not have on-site parking or sufficient on-site parking (or free parking), though they almost always do in the suburbs. As for Europe, I think there was one time where I found a hotel that had parking. Hotels in Central and Latin America will have you use either nearby street parking or a cramped underground lot (nothing like underground car parks in the USA).
Hoping for them to offer EV charging in light of the current parking situation is almost laughable.
Hoping for them to offer EV charging in light of the current parking situation is almost laughable.
Hotels in the suburbs and rural areas will start offering charging though. A lot of people on those areas drive and as drivers switch to EVs they will discover chargers is something their customers look for.
Of course it will start with the expensive hotels and move down the price range. People who look for cheap budget hotels drive cheap used cars and so they have not yet reached the early adopter stage of EVs (the early adopters might have a 2011 leaf, but that isn't a road trip car) while people who stay at expensive hotels have already looked at a new EV (they probably haven't bought one yet, but they have seriously considered it)
Of course it will start with the expensive hotels and move down the price range. People who look for cheap budget hotels drive cheap used cars and so they have not yet reached the early adopter stage of EVs (the early adopters might have a 2011 leaf, but that isn't a road trip car) while people who stay at expensive hotels have already looked at a new EV (they probably haven't bought one yet, but they have seriously considered it)
The hotels that I use in Europe have plenty of parking.
BTW, is there a reliable search site for hotels with EV chargers?
booking.com lies — their "has EV chargnig" search filter actually means "there may be an EV charger somewhere in the same city".
booking.com lies — their "has EV chargnig" search filter actually means "there may be an EV charger somewhere in the same city".
The economies of this will be interesting;
Gas stations make small margin on gas, but high margin on convenience stores;
Electric Cars upset this, because 80% of trips can be slow charged at home; But the one difference is those 20% of trips requiring charging will have longer stops (potentially optimizing for higher, restaurant margins).
*Yes, there are situations where home charging in cities is less likely possible.
Gas stations make small margin on gas, but high margin on convenience stores;
Electric Cars upset this, because 80% of trips can be slow charged at home; But the one difference is those 20% of trips requiring charging will have longer stops (potentially optimizing for higher, restaurant margins).
*Yes, there are situations where home charging in cities is less likely possible.
Why do you need a 'gas station' to charge a car?
Honest question as at that point you just need a parking spot with a charging station, no human required on site.
Honest question as at that point you just need a parking spot with a charging station, no human required on site.
There are a tiny number of gas stations that don't have a human on site. However they also don't have restrooms, or anything else for sale (sometimes a vending machine). Gas stations exist with humans because the real money is in all the snacks they sell inside. Fresh pizza needs someone to cook it and put it in the warmer.
same for gas, no human required on site to fuel a car but "gas stations" exist.
Business idea: Food truck parked at electric charging stations.
In places like Wyoming and South Dakota, US gas stations come with slot machines inside. I wonder if having people stay around for a longer time, plus loosening regulations on gambling, means that this is the future way to incredible profits for gas stations.
[deleted]
Most restaurants have much lower margins than convenience stores I would guess.
And their biggest margin item is alcohol, which is kind of a non-starter for a roadside restaurant.
Er, what? Don't they sell beer and wine at the roadside in Europe? At gas stations and rest areas even?
Do they? As in for immediate consumption on the premises? Or packaged to-go? The latter seems reasonable, but the former seems like a somewhat dangerous idea. Maybe I'm just too US-centric
Usually to-go, yes. It seems in the UK that it's possible but discouraged to sell for on-premises: https://motorwayservices.uk/Alcohol
I'd guess so too, bigger ticket though, could believe they'd profit more from a meal while EV charges vs average convenience sale while nipping in to pay for fuel (that's only if you don't pay at pump anyway), which I think is GP's point.
Depends on store. One at gas station usually have high margins, probably lower volume. On other hand regular stores have very low margins. They just have massive volume. Convenience stores by my understanding are one of the lowest margin businesses. Maybe with selling gas.
They are probably thinking gas-station's with more than just snacks, e.g. wawa, sheetz
I'm curious about the cost structure of a gas station relative to a charging station. I would imagine that like an unattended charging port, connected to the grid and monitored remotely, would be very different to run and fund compared to the usual attended gas station where fuel is trucked in. If the costs can be brought significantly down, but the annual consumer outlay can be kept the same, then it could be way more profitable. I have no idea how feasible that latter one is though, people with EVs- are you saving money on fuel?
> 80% of trips can be slow charged at home
So, there needs to be a power grid (electricity generation + distribution) to be able to slow charge at home for the masses and fast chargers ever 60km. That is quite a delta to what we have for our power grids today.
So, there needs to be a power grid (electricity generation + distribution) to be able to slow charge at home for the masses and fast chargers ever 60km. That is quite a delta to what we have for our power grids today.
Slow charging is ~1600w; Which is a similar power rating as a hair dryer or single burner stove (including induction), a small 120v point of use water heater, or 16 100w light bulbs.
Surely, we don't have to be cooking all night long on every connection; but surely even historically the grid can handle 16 light bulbs somewhere in the house.
Surely, we don't have to be cooking all night long on every connection; but surely even historically the grid can handle 16 light bulbs somewhere in the house.
> Yes, there are situations where home charging in cities is less likely possible.
Didn't you hear? We will have chargers in every street light pole, even in European old-town city centres!
Didn't you hear? We will have chargers in every street light pole, even in European old-town city centres!
Yes; 95% was a number typically cited for trips that electric cars with <40 miles of range applied for; so i gave those without ready charging situation additional %; Along with the technology advancements in the last 30 years; like 5x+ the range.
I get the sarcasm but this is not spatial problem.
Also: "old-town city centres" are often car-free.
Also: "old-town city centres" are often car-free.
This essentially means that gas stations will add fast chargers to their parking spaces, as there is already an European directive mandating a gas station every 100Km (I think) in highways and freeways.
This is what's happening in Canada, very aggressively. One of our biggest petrol companies (Parkland, who owns Pioneer, Columbia Fuels, Ultramar, Chevron, and many Esso franchises) has an aggressive plan to install fast chargers at basically all of their locations—and convert their retail to destinations with stuff to do while you wait[0]. They're already aggressively executing on this; where I live in BC they're already installing them up and down the highways, so I use them frequently already. One interesting thing they do is give you discounts on things like coffees or burgers if you're charging; smart way to get you inside.
[0] https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-parkland-ga...
[0] https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-parkland-ga...
I just drove from the US border to the yukon, and the amount of fast charging available in BC, even north of Prince George, shocked me! We took our diesel truck for other reasons, but we thought we could have done this trip in the model 3 with the CCS converter no problem.
Yes, this is probably what's going to happen. After all they'll want to stay in business: as they'll sell less and less gas they'll have to sell more and more electricity. I wonder if they'll buy some thick line or if they'll use gas or diesel generators to charge a big battery, plus solar panels.
It’s very hard to get the permission to run diesel generators for anything else than backup power here. And even then, it needs to be timed very precisely to be in line with regulations.
> they'll use gas or diesel generators
This obviously can't be allowed to happen .. but I don't think there's any sign of that, as grid electricity remains cheaper than onsite generation. On a trip last month it was very noticeable that several rest stops had under-construction chargers in addition to the one or two that had previously been put in.
This obviously can't be allowed to happen .. but I don't think there's any sign of that, as grid electricity remains cheaper than onsite generation. On a trip last month it was very noticeable that several rest stops had under-construction chargers in addition to the one or two that had previously been put in.
I would argue it SHOULD be allowed to happen, maybe even encourage it. An EV that needs a gas powered generator for 0-1% of its life is many times better than an ICE that needs a gas powered generator for 100% of its life.
If you allow gas powered generators to complement EV stations, you will have more EV charging stations in remote areas or otherwise areas that wouldn't see EV chargers. Every extra EV charger will drive up the adoption.
If you allow gas powered generators to complement EV stations, you will have more EV charging stations in remote areas or otherwise areas that wouldn't see EV chargers. Every extra EV charger will drive up the adoption.
> If you allow gas powered generators to complement EV stations, you will have more EV charging stations in remote areas
But you don't have to do this! You can just put them on the grid. There are very few places that are truly off grid in Europe, mostly on islands, and absolutely zero on motorways.
But you don't have to do this! You can just put them on the grid. There are very few places that are truly off grid in Europe, mostly on islands, and absolutely zero on motorways.
The power requirements for charging stations are massive! A Tesla can draw 250kW. If you have 10 chargers, that is 2.5MW. You won't get that everywhere...
If you can install a 2.5MW diesel generator to cover those areas, encouraging adoption, that is a good thing. I am not talking about 4 lane motorways, where access to megawatt power lines might not be that challenging, but more remote areas.
If you can install a 2.5MW diesel generator to cover those areas, encouraging adoption, that is a good thing. I am not talking about 4 lane motorways, where access to megawatt power lines might not be that challenging, but more remote areas.
Can draw being a key. Cars can only sustain their max draw for a short portion of the charging curve, so it would extremely rare (if not impossible) to actually draw 2.5 MW. 10 cars with under 15% state of charge would all have to pull in within 2-3 minutes to a supercharger that started empty.
Many charging locations are getting dedicated batteries to smooth off the peaks and valleys of fast charging, turning it into a much more constant draw. When a peak is needed the battery fills in. When the site is more idle, instead of a valley, power is diverted to the battery to ready it for the next peak.
Another strategy companies like kempower are using is 25 or 50 kW modules that can be dynamically allocated across the whole site. At the peak of the curve a car gets many modules. As the power a car can take decreases deeper into the curve the extra modules can be assigned to a different plug. If everyone pulls in at low state of charge at the same time the site hits the limits and cars have the throttle. A more typical usage pattern of cars pulling in and out at different times means cars can maximize their charge curve while capping the total draw of the site.
Many charging locations are getting dedicated batteries to smooth off the peaks and valleys of fast charging, turning it into a much more constant draw. When a peak is needed the battery fills in. When the site is more idle, instead of a valley, power is diverted to the battery to ready it for the next peak.
Another strategy companies like kempower are using is 25 or 50 kW modules that can be dynamically allocated across the whole site. At the peak of the curve a car gets many modules. As the power a car can take decreases deeper into the curve the extra modules can be assigned to a different plug. If everyone pulls in at low state of charge at the same time the site hits the limits and cars have the throttle. A more typical usage pattern of cars pulling in and out at different times means cars can maximize their charge curve while capping the total draw of the site.
10 cars filling up their tanks at an highway gas station is not uncommon, especially if you consider the cars waiting in lines. This may seem unfair but let me argue about that.
Filling up a gas tank and leaving takes about 5 minutes so even if you arrive there and you have to wait in a line it's not a big deal. If recharging an EV up to a reasonable level takes 15 minutes, either they 3x the number of stands or make customers unhappy and leave for the next station, if they can get there. If they can't, they are hostage of the physics of batteries and EVs and they'll have to wait.
So I think that each charging station will have more stands to recharge EVs than gas pumps now.
Filling up a gas tank and leaving takes about 5 minutes so even if you arrive there and you have to wait in a line it's not a big deal. If recharging an EV up to a reasonable level takes 15 minutes, either they 3x the number of stands or make customers unhappy and leave for the next station, if they can get there. If they can't, they are hostage of the physics of batteries and EVs and they'll have to wait.
So I think that each charging station will have more stands to recharge EVs than gas pumps now.
> I am not talking about 4 lane motorways, where access to megawatt power lines might not be that challenging, but more remote areas
That's a good use case for battery backed or battery integrated chargers. They can charge up the battery on a smaller grid connection but still deliver fast charging since you're drawing from the battery pack.
Freewire's Boost Charger 200 is an example of a battery integrated charger: https://freewiretech.com/products/dc-boost-charger-200/
That's a good use case for battery backed or battery integrated chargers. They can charge up the battery on a smaller grid connection but still deliver fast charging since you're drawing from the battery pack.
Freewire's Boost Charger 200 is an example of a battery integrated charger: https://freewiretech.com/products/dc-boost-charger-200/
The European grid is much, much better shape than the US one. It is also luch denser, so I don't see a problem here at all, locally. Overall, the grid will be different when millions of EVs have to charged, but that will be done by the utilities because they will make money doing it. Expect a lot of whining to get EU and national subsidies to do so first, but that is business as usual.
Do you really need 10 chargers at 250kW in such remote areas?
Maybe 2 chargers 50kW would be perfectly sufficient and much more economical outside of freeways?
Maybe 2 chargers 50kW would be perfectly sufficient and much more economical outside of freeways?
10 250kw chargers are frequently only supplied by 1 megawatt of power supply.
They rely on the fact that it is common for some of the stalls to be empty, occupied by cars that have finished charging or can't charge at the full rate for whatever reason.
Some sites have batteries to provide a bit more power for the busiest times too. That has the benefit that those same batteries can participate in grid balancing the rest of the time (buying and selling power for profit, and getting paid for various technical grid services too).
They rely on the fact that it is common for some of the stalls to be empty, occupied by cars that have finished charging or can't charge at the full rate for whatever reason.
Some sites have batteries to provide a bit more power for the busiest times too. That has the benefit that those same batteries can participate in grid balancing the rest of the time (buying and selling power for profit, and getting paid for various technical grid services too).
> Maybe 2 chargers 50kW would be perfectly sufficient and much more economical outside of freeways?
That remains for the free market to decide....if the owner considers a generator is cheaper, then leave him be. Where grid power is enough, electricity will be much cheaper than a generator, so if the owner wants a generator, it's probably a choice between having a generator charger vs no charger.
That remains for the free market to decide....if the owner considers a generator is cheaper, then leave him be. Where grid power is enough, electricity will be much cheaper than a generator, so if the owner wants a generator, it's probably a choice between having a generator charger vs no charger.
> so if the owner wants a generator, it's probably a choice between having a generator charger vs no charger.
Possibly. But I would expect this to be a very uncommon scenario. Unless you’re running a car race* for instance you’d have to have a situation where somebody would both be willing to pay 2x or more per kWh and also prefer to not charge their car at all if they couldn’t do it in 5-15 minutes.
* https://www.sportskeeda.com/amp/f1/news-red-bull-s-helmut-ma...
Possibly. But I would expect this to be a very uncommon scenario. Unless you’re running a car race* for instance you’d have to have a situation where somebody would both be willing to pay 2x or more per kWh and also prefer to not charge their car at all if they couldn’t do it in 5-15 minutes.
* https://www.sportskeeda.com/amp/f1/news-red-bull-s-helmut-ma...
How is this going to be enforced?
What if there is a 70km gap in one of the highway because no private company though it was worth to build a station there? Who is going to be blamed and who is going to pay a fine?
If only it weren't ~4x as expensive to charge outside my home. I guess that will get fixed eventually by raising my home electricity price.
Already fixed for me. Peak rate in the summer is about 55 cents in the summer at my home. Electrify America is in the 40s.
In Scotland my home rate is 35p/kW. There are special tariffs for night charging at 7p/kW for 6 hours but only with some suppliers.
Some local chargers are 16p/kW but there is a spread all the way up to 80p/kW.
Some local chargers are 16p/kW but there is a spread all the way up to 80p/kW.
Or peppering every outdoor surface with solar panels. What a techno-noir nightmare that will be. Otherwise, electricity generation via natural gas/coal would mean you may as well just stick with ICE.
Solar panels on every outdoor surface would look great. You don't want people walking or driving on them so it would mean a lot more pavilions and shades over the otherwise terrible heat deserts of the world's parking lots. Asphalt is a net heat radiator making the world around every parking lot hotter. Solar panels would be a net heat reducer, and with them overhead on pavilions it would make the ground below much cooler and nicer. People might actually want to start walking to places again on the ground levels.
That sounds pretty far from a nightmare to me.
That sounds pretty far from a nightmare to me.
> electricity generation via natural gas/coal would mean you may as well just stick with ICE.
I'm not sure about this. As I understand it, burning fossil fuels to generate electricity at a central facility is far more efficient than running millions of small engines.
I'm not sure about this. As I understand it, burning fossil fuels to generate electricity at a central facility is far more efficient than running millions of small engines.
haha imagine thinking that solar panels are an aesthetic nightmare compared to a gas/coal power plant spewing out waste
I live in a place with exactly 1 natural gas energy plant and something like 300 square miles of solar panels.
The solar panels are placed in the wilderness and an eye sore. At least with a coal plant I can expect it.
I wish I was as delusional as most pro-EV people. Not only is EV an environmental nightmare (batteries? Where does energy come from?) the options right now for renewables are wholly inefficient and an eyesore. We'd do more to stop people from flying aircraft and driving large cruise liners. But that would get in the way of profits. Champagne socialists are hilarious.
The solar panels are placed in the wilderness and an eye sore. At least with a coal plant I can expect it.
I wish I was as delusional as most pro-EV people. Not only is EV an environmental nightmare (batteries? Where does energy come from?) the options right now for renewables are wholly inefficient and an eyesore. We'd do more to stop people from flying aircraft and driving large cruise liners. But that would get in the way of profits. Champagne socialists are hilarious.
So you'd rather energy generation needed for our society just be swept under a rug somewhere you can't see, rather than confronting the realities of modern consumption?
Homes need to be heated, people need to be transported. You can only play a shell game for so long.
Homes need to be heated, people need to be transported. You can only play a shell game for so long.
Could work. And then only allow charging when they are producing power. Then the EV drivers could wait at these stations until it is sunny for their carbon-free future.
Also to note
> Not forgetting other sustainable alternatives to ICEs, the European Parliament mandated at least one hydrogen refueling station every 200 km along TEN-T motorways by 2031.
Good stuff
> Not forgetting other sustainable alternatives to ICEs, the European Parliament mandated at least one hydrogen refueling station every 200 km along TEN-T motorways by 2031.
Good stuff
Looking at the number of h2 cars on the road, I'd say it's a complete waste...
As they use to say "Why buy a fax if no one owns a fax."
If we have that many charging stations there is no need for humongous batteries, they can have lighter frames and engines, be cheaper to buy and repair, less road tax.
As the real Tesla use to say: Balance the source with the load.
It remains dubious where all that electricity should come from. When making a budget and your spending is still larger than your income you look for places to cut. If most of your money goes towards transporting suitcases of money one might consider if there is a need to bring that much.
if hydrogen cant compete it will just die out. Worth a shot tho.
If we have that many charging stations there is no need for humongous batteries, they can have lighter frames and engines, be cheaper to buy and repair, less road tax.
As the real Tesla use to say: Balance the source with the load.
It remains dubious where all that electricity should come from. When making a budget and your spending is still larger than your income you look for places to cut. If most of your money goes towards transporting suitcases of money one might consider if there is a need to bring that much.
if hydrogen cant compete it will just die out. Worth a shot tho.
Are there any at all? I've seen zero marketed, while EVs are starting to become prevalent and my city has electric and hybrid buses.
Hyundai always had a model, Nexo (name might have been different previously). Pricey though. Not mass marketed as far as I can tell but produced as a series so no vaporware and they had it for roughly as long as their all electric Ioniqs.
I see 1-2 a month, but they're all Mirai and I only know of 2-3 charging stations within 10mi/20km.
Waste of money on a dead-end technology.
What’s the range on hydrogen fuelled cars?
Comparable to petrol cars - the figure I've seen is 3-400miles refueled in the same time as a gas car:
https://driveclean.ca.gov/hydrogen-fuel-cell#:~:text=Fuel%20...
That said - my diesel car easily does 600-700 miles per 60litre tank
https://driveclean.ca.gov/hydrogen-fuel-cell#:~:text=Fuel%20...
That said - my diesel car easily does 600-700 miles per 60litre tank
The refuel time is dependent on the pressure in the tank. There's an intermediate tank that's used to pressurize the hydrogen before it can be pumped into the car, and pressurizing this vessel can take a lot longer when the main tank is empty. I'd say that the refueling time is only as good as petrol in the best case scenario.
it seems so incredibly complicated compared to EV's I can't really imagine a future where hydrogen will be a big part of vehicles
All cars are complicated. Hydrogen cars have an advantage of being truly sustainable, something BEVs are not. So it safe to say that it is inevitable that cars will transition to hydrogen. Personal opinions like these are just a repeat of classic anti-progress statements like "airplanes will never happen" or "radio will never amount to anything."
Not to mention the huge amount of energy it takes to compress or liquify a gas. Everyone ignores this when talking about hydrogen as fuel.
What's the chance of a hydrogen fuel cell exploding?
The Mirai has a range of 502km.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Mirai
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Mirai
The second generation Mirai's range is 647 km (402 mi) on the EPA test cycle.
The Hyundai Nexo gets 570–612 km (354–380 mi) EPA range: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Nexo
The Hyundai Nexo gets 570–612 km (354–380 mi) EPA range: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Nexo
Love to see it. I wish it addressed reliability, though. In my neck of the woods in Sweden, coverage is pretty decent, but on more than one occasion, I've had to bounce between 7+ fast chargers before finding one that actually worked.
Interesting. Fortunately, this never happened to me anywhere, and I've been to quite a few around the globe :)
Do they merely have to exist or do they also have to work? And if they are broken, how fast must they be fixed and what’s the consequence if they are not fixed?
Unless this is also clarified, it’s not a finished proposal.
Unless this is also clarified, it’s not a finished proposal.
Indeed. For them to work, some massive electric grid infrastructure has to be added. The directive mentions "at least 400 kW by 2026", which is probably doable mostly with existing spare capacity. They also mention 1.4MW and 2.8MW chargers 120 km apart by 2028.
This will require a number of new transmission lines, and quite some new electric generation, at the very least in hundreds of megawatts of base load. (A nice new nuclear power station providing a couple GW would be handy, but I can't expect it to spring up by 2028 anywhere, except maybe France.)
This will require a number of new transmission lines, and quite some new electric generation, at the very least in hundreds of megawatts of base load. (A nice new nuclear power station providing a couple GW would be handy, but I can't expect it to spring up by 2028 anywhere, except maybe France.)
The consequences of not fixing them is losing returns on what must be a significant capital investment. No further incentive needed.
In practice, these charging spots are leased out by governments, and operated by private parties that sign some SLA. Miss the SLA, lose the lease.
In practice, these charging spots are leased out by governments, and operated by private parties that sign some SLA. Miss the SLA, lose the lease.
It's cool that there is a mandate for it. I suppose I'm surprised they aren't close to achieving this already, or that it wouldn't happen on its own.
I was talking to my parents, who live in a very rural area of the U.S.—the nearest mailbox is a ten minute drive—and they said "we'd love an electric vehicle, but where would we charge it around here?" and we pulled up a map and there were something like two or three suitable charging stations within 20 miles, and many more within the range of a full charge.
That's why I'd assume that the busiest motorways in the EU would already have plenty of fast charging stations within a 60km drive. Maybe they already do, and this is more about adding additional bureaucracy. Or, more generously, maybe it's about those other clauses, like the payment system and displaying the prices and whatnot, and the bit in the headline was always expected to take care of itself.
I was talking to my parents, who live in a very rural area of the U.S.—the nearest mailbox is a ten minute drive—and they said "we'd love an electric vehicle, but where would we charge it around here?" and we pulled up a map and there were something like two or three suitable charging stations within 20 miles, and many more within the range of a full charge.
That's why I'd assume that the busiest motorways in the EU would already have plenty of fast charging stations within a 60km drive. Maybe they already do, and this is more about adding additional bureaucracy. Or, more generously, maybe it's about those other clauses, like the payment system and displaying the prices and whatnot, and the bit in the headline was always expected to take care of itself.
It seems funny to me that legislators all over the world think that they can change the physical world with a written law.
While I like the idea of a convenient fast charging network for EVs, there are all these details like funding, electric infrastructure, availability of raw materials, availability of labor, and the ongoing cost of maintenance.
Here in the US charging stations are broken all the time. Even Tesla supercharging stations often have several stalls down.
I would bet huge sums of money that there is no possible way Europe has this in place on schedule.
While I like the idea of a convenient fast charging network for EVs, there are all these details like funding, electric infrastructure, availability of raw materials, availability of labor, and the ongoing cost of maintenance.
Here in the US charging stations are broken all the time. Even Tesla supercharging stations often have several stalls down.
I would bet huge sums of money that there is no possible way Europe has this in place on schedule.
Infrastructure is the responsibility of the government. This actually works pretty well in Europe.
In HN or Reddit you could write a comment as vague and incorrect as "Europe is perfect" and get a gazillion upvotes.
Of course that does nothing for us saps who actually have to live here.
Of course that does nothing for us saps who actually have to live here.
Whats the top 3 worst things about Europe in your opinion?
These things are always compared to other regions and I have never lived anywhere else so I can't really give a coherent answer.
But Europe is pretty big and diverse (in the positive meaning of the word) which means that making a sweeping statement such as "European governments do a pretty well job of handling infrastructure" is absurd. Do the national and regional governments of every region in every country of Europe do a pretty well job of handling infrastructure? The answer is obviously no. Some things are pretty good and some things are pretty bad. Like... everywhere else in the civilised world.
But Europe is pretty big and diverse (in the positive meaning of the word) which means that making a sweeping statement such as "European governments do a pretty well job of handling infrastructure" is absurd. Do the national and regional governments of every region in every country of Europe do a pretty well job of handling infrastructure? The answer is obviously no. Some things are pretty good and some things are pretty bad. Like... everywhere else in the civilised world.
Even if it is not on schedule, it is better to have some infrastructure than none. The 2028 schedule adds some urgency to the matter.
It seems funny to me that you don't think legislators can change the world. Make the incentives right and everything else will follow. This is not insurmountable technical difficulty. It's just a matter of pouring money into the problem.
Noone involved expects this to be in place on schedule. This is a matter of politics first, policy later, realization maybe eventually. I.e., have some nice dreams, give people money and tell them to build something useful, then see what happens.
> It seems funny to me that legislators all over the world think that they can change the physical world with a written law.
An EU directive is either directly binding law itself (like the GDPR) or a requirement on its member states to pass a certain matter into local laws. If a member state fails to comply with the directive, the European Commission may file a lawsuit at the ECJ which may impose serious fines until the country in question complies.
In this case, compliance can be done by governments on many levels: some may choose to construct charging stations themselves, some may require licenseholders of gas stations to do so, and some can do nothing and hope the free market does the work for them on their own.
An EU directive is either directly binding law itself (like the GDPR) or a requirement on its member states to pass a certain matter into local laws. If a member state fails to comply with the directive, the European Commission may file a lawsuit at the ECJ which may impose serious fines until the country in question complies.
In this case, compliance can be done by governments on many levels: some may choose to construct charging stations themselves, some may require licenseholders of gas stations to do so, and some can do nothing and hope the free market does the work for them on their own.
> An EU directive is either directly binding law itself (like the GDPR) or a requirement on its member states to pass a certain matter into local laws
Nearly. A /directive/ is the requirement for each state to implement legislation and a /regulation/ is a directly binding law.
Nearly. A /directive/ is the requirement for each state to implement legislation and a /regulation/ is a directly binding law.
I think NL, SE, NO, and DE are already there, or mostly.... We just need more destination-chargers / on-street / at-parking-locations slow (7 - 11 kw) chargers
Ireland, too, thanks to a small motorway network. Really something radical like mandating every public parking space has a charger is necessary.
I don't think anyone needs to go that far, especially when most EV owners charge at home. Can you imagine parking downtown and every spot has a cable running to a car? Seems like a tripping hazard waiting to happen.
Suppose one company has built charging stations in city A but not in city B and a different company has built charging stations in city B but not in city A and new stations need to be built between the two cities.
If neither company wants to build the stations, what happens? Does government build them? Offer subsidies to entice the companies to build them? Make building them a condition of approving permits for other stations that the companies do want to build?
If neither company wants to build the stations, what happens? Does government build them? Offer subsidies to entice the companies to build them? Make building them a condition of approving permits for other stations that the companies do want to build?
Company C will build them.
Europe standardized on CCS chargers and CCS type 2 combo plugs quite a while ago. All brands of charger on all charging networks charge all brands of EV.
Standardization drives investment and development for infrastructure.
Europe standardized on CCS chargers and CCS type 2 combo plugs quite a while ago. All brands of charger on all charging networks charge all brands of EV.
Standardization drives investment and development for infrastructure.
If that were generally the case there would be no need for them to legislate that there must be fast chargers every 60 km. So what happens when no company actually wants to build chargers in a place where the legislation requires chargers?
> If that were generally the case there would be no need for them to legislate that there must be fast chargers every 60 km.
It's still early days for EV infrastructure, even in Europe. They're setting the direction.
> So what happens when no company actually wants to build chargers in a place where the legislation requires chargers?
They aren't specifying particular locations, just maximum spacing. Member states can incentivize deployment however they like. And there are deployment exemptions available for exceptional cases where there just isn't going to be the traffic:
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20230327IP...
A lot of it will be as simple as adding more chargers to existing fuel stations along those routes. Circle K, Shell, BP, etc. have been doing that for years.
It's still early days for EV infrastructure, even in Europe. They're setting the direction.
> So what happens when no company actually wants to build chargers in a place where the legislation requires chargers?
They aren't specifying particular locations, just maximum spacing. Member states can incentivize deployment however they like. And there are deployment exemptions available for exceptional cases where there just isn't going to be the traffic:
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20230327IP...
A lot of it will be as simple as adding more chargers to existing fuel stations along those routes. Circle K, Shell, BP, etc. have been doing that for years.
I'm surprised someone hasn't created the Airbnb of EV chargers. For example, you're traveling and you need to find a charger, so you open the app and fine someone with a home charger. They are willing to let you use the charger for a small fee, plus energy use etc. The app arranges the connection, then the person goes and plugs in.
If someone is not already working on it, someone will be soon
If someone is not already working on it, someone will be soon
Those do exist and there's plenty of them: it's known as "co-charging". There's even one literally called ChargeBnB.
It exists: https://co-charger.com/
However, this is a different use-case than motorway charging. Home chargers are slow, designed for charging overnight. On a road trip you want to recharge in 20-30 minutes, and that requires much bigger DC chargers you won't find at home.
However, this is a different use-case than motorway charging. Home chargers are slow, designed for charging overnight. On a road trip you want to recharge in 20-30 minutes, and that requires much bigger DC chargers you won't find at home.
I used to advertise my outdoor plug on Plugshare (it should still be there, AFAIK). The only time it's ever been used is by my neighbors before they got their own EVSE installed, and my in-laws when they visit. No random stranger has ever used it.
I would expect that at least somewhere, terms of residential electricity provision would forbid one from selling that electricity to a third party.
[deleted]
It exists: https://www.plugshare.com/
There's various "airbnb for parking" apps, I imagine some will add "charger?" as an option.
This is the reason why for some time no company has undertaken to build travel service points in Poland. Investing in a very expensive charging infrastructure (motorways are often located in places where the nearest power transmission line is far away) does not pay off with contracts signed by the state for a short time.
I worked at a company who made charging points a few years ago and the consensus then was that the idea of charging on the road at petrol stations was outdated.
Chargers need to be where you park for an hour or more, so at the home, destination or basically where there are car parks.
Chargers need to be where you park for an hour or more, so at the home, destination or basically where there are car parks.
Absolutely true for short distances (e.g. a daily commute), but not when you travel a long distance. If you want to cover say 1000km in a day, you probably need to charge twice along the way. Fast chargers along the highway are perfect for this.
Seems reasonable.
how about overhead lines to charge while moving? lets be creative here
We should have another go at "trolleybuses", they seemed like a really effective technology. I guess the maintenance of overhead lines was more expensive than you'd expect.
IF you are running frequent service, then a trolley bus with all the wire costs is cheaper than batteries or engines. However most bus systems have a lot of less frequent sections and so it isn't worth it.
The real disadvantage of a trolleybus is your are stuck going exactly where the wires are. If something is blocking your lane you can't go around. If you want to close the road for maintenance you can't run the trolley bus. This loss of flexibility makes the regular bus make more sense in a lot of cases.
If you do have a situation where a trollybus will work, you probably should just put in a train that doesn't run in traffic. A tram running on tracks that are not in a road at all isn't much more expensive, and can handle more people than a bus in the busy part of the day. I'm a big fan of the automated light metro system idea: it runs faster than a tram (because it doesn't have to worry about anything in the tracks), it is cheaper in the long run (operating costs the big cost in any transit system), is can run 24x7 (if designed for it - many are not), and you won't have problems finding crew (many transit systems have the money to expand service, but cannot hire qualified drivers). In the end though there are pros and cons to everything so you need to figure out what is best for you.
The real disadvantage of a trolleybus is your are stuck going exactly where the wires are. If something is blocking your lane you can't go around. If you want to close the road for maintenance you can't run the trolley bus. This loss of flexibility makes the regular bus make more sense in a lot of cases.
If you do have a situation where a trollybus will work, you probably should just put in a train that doesn't run in traffic. A tram running on tracks that are not in a road at all isn't much more expensive, and can handle more people than a bus in the busy part of the day. I'm a big fan of the automated light metro system idea: it runs faster than a tram (because it doesn't have to worry about anything in the tracks), it is cheaper in the long run (operating costs the big cost in any transit system), is can run 24x7 (if designed for it - many are not), and you won't have problems finding crew (many transit systems have the money to expand service, but cannot hire qualified drivers). In the end though there are pros and cons to everything so you need to figure out what is best for you.
That already exists for trucks in several countries, although only as trial operations.
https://insideevs.com/news/440388/germany-a5-autobahn-catena...
https://insideevs.com/news/440388/germany-a5-autobahn-catena...
It's way past time for human beings to stop stringing electrical cables in the air. Ask Californians.
eloq(1)
wg0(19)
And all this (including the electricity grid upgrade and new power plants required) are going to be financed with loans at a 5% or more interest rate. Sure.
"mandate to be x every y of z" means it will be financed with taxes, debt and subsidies, which leads to inflation and lower growth.
That means, again, that poor people and those without ev cars will finance those who have.
Relevant : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36763419
That means, again, that poor people and those without ev cars will finance those who have.
Relevant : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36763419
That's the point of the policy. You drive an ICE car, you pay extra for EV infrastructure you don't use. You drive an EV, you get subsidized infrastructure you don't fully pay for.
Perfectly fine example of a government aligning the incentives towards its goals (EV adoption), rather than ensuring absolute fairness.
Perfectly fine example of a government aligning the incentives towards its goals (EV adoption), rather than ensuring absolute fairness.
I walk and ride my bike, I don't have any kind of car or ev. How's fair that with my taxes I'll be financing someone else's car? (Hint: it's not fair)
Then it would depend on the nature of the taxes. If the government is smart, they would only use taxes related to motor vehicles to finance this infrastructure. Think vehicle registration, fuel taxes, sales taxes on vehicles, sales taxes on automotive parts, etc.
Whether or not it's fair enough depends on how much your government tries to make it fair.
(As a fellow cyclist I am also cognizant of the fact that roads are mostly paid for by gasoline taxes where I live, and I also enjoy subsidized infrastructure that way.)
Whether or not it's fair enough depends on how much your government tries to make it fair.
(As a fellow cyclist I am also cognizant of the fact that roads are mostly paid for by gasoline taxes where I live, and I also enjoy subsidized infrastructure that way.)
> If the government is smart.
My point exactly.
In light of the last 2000 years of history, what do you think is more plausible? (A) the government being smart, or (B) the government spending more than it makes and then raising debt and taxes for useless projects?
My point exactly.
In light of the last 2000 years of history, what do you think is more plausible? (A) the government being smart, or (B) the government spending more than it makes and then raising debt and taxes for useless projects?
This is a defeatist attitude. Because the government is not smart, so we should abolish taxes and government incentives? Preach your anarchism somewhere else.
I have provided evidence to support my claims, based on facts and reality.
You haven't.
Keep on dreaming, but that day will never come.
You haven't.
Keep on dreaming, but that day will never come.
Well, here in the U.S. we're all financing someone else's kids. And their cars. And and and...
I am not following, often debt enables growth if it is used wisely. I don’t know about Germany but often the poor are not paying taxes at a significant level, and those without ev cars will start paying for some of the externalities.
I've already put evidence and data for grow comparison between EU and US in my post.
Can you provide evidence of your claims?
Can you provide evidence of your claims?
I find that directive/rule/law very very very nice. I wish more were like that. I don't see why I'd need to have a phone with me and even less why I'd need to install any app on it.
> (at present, some charging networks require subscriptions or app downloads).
Makes me happy to know they'll either comply or GTFO.