Tesla strike widens as Swedish union expands blockade(thelocal.se)
thelocal.se
Tesla strike widens as Swedish union expands blockade
https://www.thelocal.se/20231103/tesla-strike-widens-as-swedish-union-expands-blockade
186 comments
Ignorance has won presidencies.
Have to blame the US somehow I guess for Swedish union issues. Tesla isn't a part of the US government and from a unit perspective is roundoff error compared to the US manufacturers Ford and GM.
Parent didn't blame the US (government?) for anything in their comment, but are talking about the "US system" of how unions work.
Fascinating to see such an anti-union company forced to contend with a union further up its supply chain.
It's very interesting. McDonald's tried this principled (anti-union) stance in Denmark. But now, they are still there, and the employees are very well compensated.
However, they were able to keep the unionization consolidated away from the home country. So don't worry too much.
> This is why McDonalds workers in Denmark are paid $22 per hour.
https://mattbruenig.com/2021/09/20/when-mcdonalds-came-to-de...
However, they were able to keep the unionization consolidated away from the home country. So don't worry too much.
> This is why McDonalds workers in Denmark are paid $22 per hour.
https://mattbruenig.com/2021/09/20/when-mcdonalds-came-to-de...
FWIW, I live in a low cost of living area of the US, and fast food restaurants advertise paying $20+/hr here these days post-COVID inflation. Have the European counterparts seen the same increase over the last few years?
I hear you, but... while I don't know the specifc details, I would imagine that the employer pays the government for at least part of these benefits:
> This compensation comes on top of the general slate of social benefits in Denmark, which includes child allowances, health care, child care, paid leave, retirement, and education through college, among other things.
> This compensation comes on top of the general slate of social benefits in Denmark, which includes child allowances, health care, child care, paid leave, retirement, and education through college, among other things.
> I live in a low cost of living area of the US, and fast food restaurants advertise paying $20+/hr here these days post-COVID inflation
Nobody actually gets an offer or employment for anything near that $20/hour - the fine print says "Up to $20/hour", and you have to be there for years to get close.
Nobody actually gets an offer or employment for anything near that $20/hour - the fine print says "Up to $20/hour", and you have to be there for years to get close.
Depends. Where I live in the US 15 bucks with no experience is the starting pay. 20 with a little experience is doable.
Min wage here is like 13 buck an hour
Min wage here is like 13 buck an hour
I can start tomorrow with zero experience as a 40 something for $18/hr.
My kid and his friends in their 20s all command $22+ these days for similar work, due to youth and experience.
Not saying it's an amazing wage but these jobs are regularly available to anyone in many areas of the country at the moment.
My kid and his friends in their 20s all command $22+ these days for similar work, due to youth and experience.
Not saying it's an amazing wage but these jobs are regularly available to anyone in many areas of the country at the moment.
Seattle’s minimum wage is $18.69/hr, and its increasing in 2024.
There's various expenses present in US budgets that are handled differently elsewhere. Insurance premiums have increased, dependence on cars means gas price increases hit harder in the US than the EU in general, etc. So a comparison of base wage doesn't really reflect reality.
Well, take up comparing base wage with the OP, whose post was intended to make that exact comparison just not with these results. That comparison was very common before wages rose so much over the past few years. I'm well aware of how hard comparison is even in the USA, but I am still curious about recent changes in the EU, given how the system is touted, even here. How is their system responding to similar challenges compared to the one I live in? But instead of responses, I get told I could not possibly compare due to all the complicating differences. Well what was the original point then? I'm likely inclined to agree with OP on policy, for whatever that is worth, but I am still curious and want to understand the details.
I'll note the jump to say "hey don't compare those" only came after I followed OP's implicit desire for me to compare. Unfortunately, that comparison didn't go the way it used to, so now we have a rush to say I shouldn't have done what the OP clearly wanted me to do.
I'll note the jump to say "hey don't compare those" only came after I followed OP's implicit desire for me to compare. Unfortunately, that comparison didn't go the way it used to, so now we have a rush to say I shouldn't have done what the OP clearly wanted me to do.
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I really wish people stop comparing wages across countries.
Why hasn’t Sweden produced higher paying jobs in other sectors?
Why hasn’t Sweden produced higher paying jobs in other sectors?
I'm surprised the government of Sweden allows a labor union to decide what passes through the country's ports.
It is indeed unusual that a government might support its citizens instead of a corporation that would exploit them.
usually governments just tax or tariff the corporations directly instead of relying on their citizens to extort them physically
The unions negotiate fair indutry-wide rates and conditions for the members, not taxes.
Think of it like people having talked about their salary in advance so when they walk into a negotiation and hear a number that's lower than their peers, they can call bullshit and make a take it or leave it counter.
Companies get upset about unions because they're not paying fair pay right now and know it, and if everyone in a trade demands the same minimum rate then they have to accept it.
Think of it like people having talked about their salary in advance so when they walk into a negotiation and hear a number that's lower than their peers, they can call bullshit and make a take it or leave it counter.
Companies get upset about unions because they're not paying fair pay right now and know it, and if everyone in a trade demands the same minimum rate then they have to accept it.
What if there are countries where the governments are the people
It’s rare, which is why this audience likely doesn’t understand it vs “you’re not allowed to do that!” You absolutely can do whatever citizens collectively decide, including a general strike or blocking ports.
Not every country has elected to be a slave to rugged capitalism. A surprise to be sure, but a welcome one.
Not every country has elected to be a slave to rugged capitalism. A surprise to be sure, but a welcome one.
What would you expect the government to do here if the workers as a group decided not to unload these parts? Legitimately what would the appropriate response look like to you?
Make striking illegal. /s
( oh wait, no sarcasm at all - https://time.com/6238361/joe-biden-rail-strike-illegal/ )
( oh wait, no sarcasm at all - https://time.com/6238361/joe-biden-rail-strike-illegal/ )
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Channel their inner LKY and deal with it the way he did.
I do not understand the reference. What/who is LKY in this situation?
From his memoirs "The Singapore Story", Chapter 6, "Winning Over the Unions", on the ports:
> Recounting Britain's prodigal years of crippling dock strikes which led to the devaluation of the pound sterling in 1967, I warned, "If that happens here at our harbour I will declare this high treason. I will move against the strike leaders. Charges will be brought in court later. I will get the port going straight away. The Singapore dollar will never be devalued and I think the people of Singapore expect this of their government." I spotlighted the "selfishness of established labour." Cargo handled by the Port of Singapore Authority in 1967 increased by winning over the unions over 10 percent, but the number of workers employed did not go up because the extra work was all taken up by overtime. This was immoral at a time of high unemployment. I told the union delegates that we must rid ourselves of pernicious British-style trade union practices.
A very interesting book; of course, it's his side of the story.
> Recounting Britain's prodigal years of crippling dock strikes which led to the devaluation of the pound sterling in 1967, I warned, "If that happens here at our harbour I will declare this high treason. I will move against the strike leaders. Charges will be brought in court later. I will get the port going straight away. The Singapore dollar will never be devalued and I think the people of Singapore expect this of their government." I spotlighted the "selfishness of established labour." Cargo handled by the Port of Singapore Authority in 1967 increased by winning over the unions over 10 percent, but the number of workers employed did not go up because the extra work was all taken up by overtime. This was immoral at a time of high unemployment. I told the union delegates that we must rid ourselves of pernicious British-style trade union practices.
A very interesting book; of course, it's his side of the story.
Singapore as an authoritarian city-state is not a model that scales to the entire world. It is an outlier among outliers and not every country has the blessing of being a parasitic entrepôt, even if other aspiring city-states such as Dubai are trying to copy it.
Singapore obviously had a lot of differences, particularly the PM's past close relationship with the unions, and the early stage of development making it more rational for workers to ride the common prosperity of high economic growth rates instead of squeezing more percentage points in negotiation.
But Sweden can still outlaw selective parts unloading by dockworkers, forcing an all-or-nothing strike, if it wanted to, and enforce such laws.
And I don't know why you'd call Singapore parasitic; they weren't leeching off anybody, other than the British early on.
But Sweden can still outlaw selective parts unloading by dockworkers, forcing an all-or-nothing strike, if it wanted to, and enforce such laws.
And I don't know why you'd call Singapore parasitic; they weren't leeching off anybody, other than the British early on.
I’m riffing off of this comment which described Singapore and Liechtenstein as such:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6786275
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6786275
I'm assuming it's referring to Lee Kuan Yew, first premier of Singapore:
https://mothership.sg/2017/11/lee-kuan-yew-singapore-airline...
https://mothership.sg/2017/11/lee-kuan-yew-singapore-airline...
Singapore.
The parent is expressing their affection for a fascist dictator.
They don't, and cars can still come in to Swedish ports... There's just not anyone there that's willing to unload those made by Tesla before the ship has to leave again.
The unions are allowed to strike because Tesla refuse to sign the collective agreement that regulates the use of strikes while the employees in return are guaranteed minimal wage, pensions and so on.
Tesla can sign this agreement any time they want to, but they're choosing this fight while the unions wants regulation. That's on them, not anyone else - and Musk is perfectly free to take his business elsewhere if he don't want to conform to Swedish customs.
The unions are allowed to strike because Tesla refuse to sign the collective agreement that regulates the use of strikes while the employees in return are guaranteed minimal wage, pensions and so on.
Tesla can sign this agreement any time they want to, but they're choosing this fight while the unions wants regulation. That's on them, not anyone else - and Musk is perfectly free to take his business elsewhere if he don't want to conform to Swedish customs.
You gonna hold a gun to their heads if they refuse?
Whoa hold on, don't want some pinkertons to get all excited.
This is how all governments enforce all laws so not sure why it wouldn't apply here
Because there’s no law against striking.
The US at least has many laws against striking. It's absolutely not a free for all.
Please note that Sweden is not in the US.
“Allows” them to decide what sort of work they are and aren’t willing to do?
Sweden being a member of the customs union, the cars can be brought in via any other custom union state i.e the EEA plus Turkey.
Well, then there will probably be other steps. For example electricians unions blocking any work or maintenance on Tesla charging infrastructure.
The unions collective agreements in Sweden and pretty standardalized and include standard things like pension offsets etc. So not a big bruden for serious companies.
From a company/management point of view it is often something good in the end if in addition employees are union members (I’ve been in this situation myself as a manager in Swedish companies): Say you want to terminate someone, they will get union representation. There will be very little hassle and the process will go smoothly since everyone in the room knows the rules and when the employee gets upset their union representative can help them move forward without unnecessary hassel which would lead nowhere.
The unions collective agreements in Sweden and pretty standardalized and include standard things like pension offsets etc. So not a big bruden for serious companies.
From a company/management point of view it is often something good in the end if in addition employees are union members (I’ve been in this situation myself as a manager in Swedish companies): Say you want to terminate someone, they will get union representation. There will be very little hassle and the process will go smoothly since everyone in the room knows the rules and when the employee gets upset their union representative can help them move forward without unnecessary hassel which would lead nowhere.
who runs the ports? labour
Longshoreman unions have an infamous history throughout the world. Even in the USA they have lots of leverage to dictate against things like too much automation.
the point I'm making is that the people on the ground making these places operate are the people that should have that power, and the idea that the government - supposedly the collective of all people in a country - would stand in the way of that for the sake of some capital holders is bizarre
People should have rights sure, but letting unions run ports to the contrary interests of everyone else is not that. I don’t want longshoremen unions telling me what I can buy and not buy.
You can buy whatever you want, nobody is stopping you. It would be you telling them what work they must and must not do.
Perhaps the misunderstanding is because those in the US are so accustomed to the power dynamic between employer and employee being one of controller and controlled, respectively. That's pretty much all employment in the US.
If you can for a moment question that base assumption, and imagine a power dynamic in which both negotiation and normal operations is one of equals, then you may see how that dynamic would lead to different systems.
Perhaps the misunderstanding is because those in the US are so accustomed to the power dynamic between employer and employee being one of controller and controlled, respectively. That's pretty much all employment in the US.
If you can for a moment question that base assumption, and imagine a power dynamic in which both negotiation and normal operations is one of equals, then you may see how that dynamic would lead to different systems.
So you should force them to work for the interestbof everyone else. That's called slavery.
No. I would force competition though. Longshore men don’t want to unload a ship? Fine, they don’t have to work that day. Just hire people from the hall that will? No one wants to unload the ship? Ok, just let the robots do it.
And when you get sympathy strikes? That's how it works in Sweden and what Tesla is facing. First the harbors, then electricians and it'll eventually be the entire country if the don't sign. That's how our system works: solidarity.
Everyone has the right to strike. They don’t have a right to a monopoly in labor however.
Sure, capitalists are welcome to work too ;)
People (government folk) have the power to decide who gets to operate there. It’s a circle of trust called society.
There is no such thing as too much automation. Those dockworkers are just extracting an unfair tax, and inefficiently allocating the country’s labor.
AKA rent-seeking
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>The Swedish Transport Workers' union has also announced "sympathy measures" in support of IF Metall's strike, threatening to block the "loading and unloading of Tesla cars" at four Swedish ports, starting on November 7th unless an agreement is reached.
Their country their rules, but measures like this seem to go beyond negotiating and is just a hostage situation.
Would tesla be able to bring in their own employees to unload the cars, or would they be forced to build their own port where they're allowed to drive the cars off the ship themselves? I'm guessing it's the latter if it's possible at all.
There's a point where unions can come off as more of cartels than worker collectives, and getting involved in another unrelated unions negotiation seems to cross that line.
There's a large number of laws that exist to prevent monopolies from companies, but if one union is responsible for unloading at all ports in Sweden (idk if this is the case and it wasn't that easy to look up), then that feels very much like a monopoly.
Their country their rules, but measures like this seem to go beyond negotiating and is just a hostage situation.
Would tesla be able to bring in their own employees to unload the cars, or would they be forced to build their own port where they're allowed to drive the cars off the ship themselves? I'm guessing it's the latter if it's possible at all.
There's a point where unions can come off as more of cartels than worker collectives, and getting involved in another unrelated unions negotiation seems to cross that line.
There's a large number of laws that exist to prevent monopolies from companies, but if one union is responsible for unloading at all ports in Sweden (idk if this is the case and it wasn't that easy to look up), then that feels very much like a monopoly.
Sweden has largely left it to employers and unions to regulate the job market with little interference from politics. For example, there is no minimum wage in Sweden, things like that are collectively bargained by the employers associations and the unions.
A company that comes here and wants nothing to do with unions can't fit into this system, because everything is built on the collective bargaining. Yes, the unions have an important position, you can call it a monopoly, what you miss here is that employers are also organized and have just as much leverage. The central bargaining means that there is literally no risk that a company gets singled out, the local union isn't going to demand a huge pay rise just for Tesla workers.
So there's little risk in signing an agreement with the union, nearly all the other sizable companies in Sweden have done so. On the other hand, no one is going to lift a finger to help Tesla if they continue to be stupid.
A company that comes here and wants nothing to do with unions can't fit into this system, because everything is built on the collective bargaining. Yes, the unions have an important position, you can call it a monopoly, what you miss here is that employers are also organized and have just as much leverage. The central bargaining means that there is literally no risk that a company gets singled out, the local union isn't going to demand a huge pay rise just for Tesla workers.
So there's little risk in signing an agreement with the union, nearly all the other sizable companies in Sweden have done so. On the other hand, no one is going to lift a finger to help Tesla if they continue to be stupid.
Lowell20(1)
Man, I am glad someone is here to advocate for how fighting fire with fire is unacceptable. There is absolutely zero reasons for any union to flex their power against a company that refuses to negotiate with unions at all, just because they are in a related, but technically different part of industry.
We need to stop these filthy workers before they force company owners to lose a precious single digit percentage of yearly profit.
We need to stop these filthy workers before they force company owners to lose a precious single digit percentage of yearly profit.
You just need to decide if you want to live in a society where corporations have disproportionate power over employees and reap the enormous profits, or one where employees hold more power over corporations and therefore get more of the profits.
You should check how that's working out for the citizens of the USA and Sweden, and ask the Swedish if they like getting more of the wealth they create or not. (hint: They love it)
You should check how that's working out for the citizens of the USA and Sweden, and ask the Swedish if they like getting more of the wealth they create or not. (hint: They love it)
I’m strongly anti-union. While they increase the average wage, they limit the top wages of those who are not average or below.
That said, Sweden is clearly pro-union. If Musk didn’t want to have to deal with pro-union tactics, like those being employed and considered here, he should have stayed out of Sweden and/or any other market where he may find himself in a similar situation.
But Elon thinks he can throw his money and muscle around and win whenever he wants. I hope he finds out he’s about to get more than he didn’t bargain for.
That said, Sweden is clearly pro-union. If Musk didn’t want to have to deal with pro-union tactics, like those being employed and considered here, he should have stayed out of Sweden and/or any other market where he may find himself in a similar situation.
But Elon thinks he can throw his money and muscle around and win whenever he wants. I hope he finds out he’s about to get more than he didn’t bargain for.
> I’m strongly anti-union. While they increase the average wage, they limit the top wages of those who are not average or below.
How would you rate the abilties and compensation of union members Lebron James and Keanu Reeves?
How would you rate the abilties and compensation of union members Lebron James and Keanu Reeves?
Is Keanu Reeves a member of his union entirely of his own volition, or because he was coerced to by other members of his industry?
I have no problem with unions so long as they are voluntary. Only if a union is voluntary can you make any fair comparisons to prove their value.
I have no problem with unions so long as they are voluntary. Only if a union is voluntary can you make any fair comparisons to prove their value.
> Is Keanu Reeves a member of his union entirely of his own volition, or because he was coerced to by other members of his industry?
IIRC, you can't have more than a few lines in a movie without being union.
IIRC, you can't have more than a few lines in a movie without being union.
Sounds like a bunch of thugs. Gross.
I am stronly pro unions as in Sweden, and they are not like the US unions. Around 70% of people in Sweden are members of unions for $15/month.
Sweden Tesla worker salary is 4k/month, with full health insurance, free kindergarten, free school, free college. In case they get ill, workers get 2 years of 80% salary, and rehabilitation.
While you have at will contrracts in the US, unions in Sweden have ensured 3 months notice. Unions also negotiate minumum annual raise and gives you annual raise at least equal to inflation.
Unemployment insurance is handled by unions, you must be a member - 1 year of 80% salary and additional year. If needed, new training is obtained for free.
Without a union agreement, Musk workers are slaves.
No serious brand operates without unions.
Sweden Tesla worker salary is 4k/month, with full health insurance, free kindergarten, free school, free college. In case they get ill, workers get 2 years of 80% salary, and rehabilitation.
While you have at will contrracts in the US, unions in Sweden have ensured 3 months notice. Unions also negotiate minumum annual raise and gives you annual raise at least equal to inflation.
Unemployment insurance is handled by unions, you must be a member - 1 year of 80% salary and additional year. If needed, new training is obtained for free.
Without a union agreement, Musk workers are slaves.
No serious brand operates without unions.
Lebron James would be an even larger billionaire. Also, he loves money so much he is afraid to speak out for the little guys being crushed in China lest he lose a few million.
Your theory is that unions are holding back wages of elite professional athletes and movie stars?
Yes. The NBA collective bargaining agreement puts a max salary on players. In a free market LeBron would have made far more during his career, and the average player less.
This is exactly a case of increasing the median salary at the expense of top performers.
This is exactly a case of increasing the median salary at the expense of top performers.
And isn’t that a good thing overall? Like isn’t that an outcome we generally want as a society?
> The NBA collective bargaining agreement puts a max salary on players
If you check the recorded history you'll find that the NBA salary cap was there since the very first year of the league, and predates the union by several years: https://www.apbr.org/labor.html
If you check the recorded history you'll find that the NBA salary cap was there since the very first year of the league, and predates the union by several years: https://www.apbr.org/labor.html
The team salary cap and the individual max salary are different things.
The nba players union is definitely holding back the salary of Lebron. He'd be making 70%+ of the salary cap without max contracts that the union forced.
I don’t know why you’re expressing such incredulity at the idea:
https://www.inc.com/jeff-haden/even-though-lebron-james-make...
https://www.inc.com/jeff-haden/even-though-lebron-james-make...
I’m not anti-union but I am warily of unions getting too powerful.
You cannot assume that unions will always do the “right thing”.
A lot of unions encompass the entire labor force of a sector effectively becoming monopolies on labor. Those aren’t healthy for the economy as there is nothing stopping them from abusing their monopoly position.
Frankly, corporations at least have antitrust laws to check them. Are there laws checking the power and abuse of power of unions?
You cannot assume that unions will always do the “right thing”.
A lot of unions encompass the entire labor force of a sector effectively becoming monopolies on labor. Those aren’t healthy for the economy as there is nothing stopping them from abusing their monopoly position.
Frankly, corporations at least have antitrust laws to check them. Are there laws checking the power and abuse of power of unions?
Of course there are laws regulating unions. What kind of question is this?
Example? I heard of antitrust laws for corporations - and all the “Acts” that codify them.
What are the union equivalents? What aren’t unions allowed to do? Are there cases where unions have been sued by governments for breaking these laws?
What are the union equivalents? What aren’t unions allowed to do? Are there cases where unions have been sued by governments for breaking these laws?
In the US at least strategic industries are banned from striking. This happened to the railroad workers last year where the government passed a law that would take away their pensions if they striked. Reagan famously fired every ATC worker when they went on strike. There are many other laws too, in my state public unions can't strike over wages. Of course they just say they're striking about iother things and negotiate wages anyway but it does effect their messaging.
But the Tesla is for some reason an American company. Is that just a correlation or some causation too?
This is how McDonalds workers in Denmark got union coverage.
There are actually many good reasons for this.
There are actually many good reasons for this.
It may not have been obvious but I was being sarcastic. I thought the use of the word "filthy" when describing workers was bombastic enough to get my sarcasm across, but I do understand how this is a site filled with temporarily embarrassed billionaires and I could have hit Poe's law.
Good sarcasm mixes in seamlessly with legit, sincerely held beliefs, and Hacker News has built up a sizable subset audience of people sincerely simping and white-knighting for corporations.
I’ll be honest I thought you were serious too until I read this reply.
That being said, I know I’ve personally (as a US citizen) been conditioned from a young age to believe unions are a mixed-bag at best & outright criminal at worst. I also know as a matter of fact that this conditioning is incorrect, so there’s an odd feeling of momentary ambivalence whenever it pops back into my head.
That being said, I know I’ve personally (as a US citizen) been conditioned from a young age to believe unions are a mixed-bag at best & outright criminal at worst. I also know as a matter of fact that this conditioning is incorrect, so there’s an odd feeling of momentary ambivalence whenever it pops back into my head.
I like how inflation has made having a million just ever so slightly realistic for enough people(heck you can get million dollar mortgages now) that Steinbeck's quote has been changed to "temporarily embarrassed billionaires"
On matters relating to Naughty Old Mr Car in particular, it can be difficult to tell; Poe’s Law is in full effect with some of his weirder fanboys.
Love the fight between embarrassed billionaires and embarrassed commissars.
I’m fairly certain the non billionaire “temporarily embarrassed billionaires” are much less forthright with their ideology than the commissars are.
Tbh I’ve heard a lot of critique of communists but this this the first time I’ve heard someone claim they were embarrassed about their position
Tbh I’ve heard a lot of critique of communists but this this the first time I’ve heard someone claim they were embarrassed about their position
McDonalds is its own special case though. In the US they own a lot of property. It should drive down prices and raise wages but they choose not to. It’s crooked af and is a part of a system that produces all sorts of hidden cost on tax payers.
Reality shows that is overall good for the country, Sweden! It is purely not necessary for big corporations to be in the position to exploit workers.
Nothing about this situation describes a monopoly. Every single individual worker has the choice to bust the union; they just prefer not to.
Nothing about this situation describes a monopoly. Every single individual worker has the choice to bust the union; they just prefer not to.
> There's a large number of laws that exist to prevent monopolies from companies
From the accounting oligopolies, to the online ads oligopolies, to the b2b software oligopolies, to the publishing oligopolies, to the oil oligopolies, to the breakfast cereal oligopolies, to the music oligopolies, to the advertising oligopolies to...can you tell me what industry there are laws that prevent monopolies and oligopolies? Local restaurants and lawn care?
From the accounting oligopolies, to the online ads oligopolies, to the b2b software oligopolies, to the publishing oligopolies, to the oil oligopolies, to the breakfast cereal oligopolies, to the music oligopolies, to the advertising oligopolies to...can you tell me what industry there are laws that prevent monopolies and oligopolies? Local restaurants and lawn care?
None. There are no laws to prevent oligopolies. But the comment you are replying to didn't suggest there were either, so why bring it up?
Bargaining always feels like an hostage situation from the side with less power. Lucky enough, workers united can tip the scales in their favor, while alone they are nothing.
Unions are political rather than economic entities. Descriptions such as cartels or monopolies do not really apply.
Supporting other unions' strikes has always been an integral part of the labor movement. Sometimes this is done with sympathy strikes. They are normal strikes, and all the usual rules regarding strikes apply. The people on strike lose money, which usually keeps excessive sympathy strikes in check.
The American way is having a union contract that states it explicitly that employees do not have to cross picket lines. When there is a strike somewhere, other companies may stop deliveries and other services to the affected company, because they don't have any employees who could provide the services. Those employees are still getting paid, because they are working normally and doing everything they were hired to do. Their employers just cannot provide the services expected from them.
Supporting other unions' strikes has always been an integral part of the labor movement. Sometimes this is done with sympathy strikes. They are normal strikes, and all the usual rules regarding strikes apply. The people on strike lose money, which usually keeps excessive sympathy strikes in check.
The American way is having a union contract that states it explicitly that employees do not have to cross picket lines. When there is a strike somewhere, other companies may stop deliveries and other services to the affected company, because they don't have any employees who could provide the services. Those employees are still getting paid, because they are working normally and doing everything they were hired to do. Their employers just cannot provide the services expected from them.
To clarify, sympathy strikes are usually not prohibited via negotiation, rather, they are illegal under NLRA.
Thats not a good take. a hostage that can freely leave the country is not a hostage. Tesla is a just a stranger in a different culture. If Elon shut down twitter in sweden in retaliation would he be holding sweden "hostage"?
In any case, analogies are not needed, this is typical union struggle, and it s how things work for a century. In the end there is compromise
In any case, analogies are not needed, this is typical union struggle, and it s how things work for a century. In the end there is compromise
> There's a point where unions can come off as more of cartels than worker collectives
Wouldn't be the first time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokku_kooli
Wouldn't be the first time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokku_kooli
Every union is different. Some are reasonable, some are nutty, some are crooked. Strikes are also on a case by case basis.
> getting involved in another unrelated unions negotiation seems to cross that line.
Companies do favours for "unrelated" companies all the time - Tesla of all companies is in no place to complain about the same tactics being used on them. Outlawing this is what turned anglo countries into the capitalist hellscape they've become.
> if one union is responsible for unloading at all ports in Sweden (idk if this is the case and it wasn't that easy to look up), then that feels very much like a monopoly.
The union represents the workers. It's not a monopoly any more than a country having a single government is a monopoly.
Companies do favours for "unrelated" companies all the time - Tesla of all companies is in no place to complain about the same tactics being used on them. Outlawing this is what turned anglo countries into the capitalist hellscape they've become.
> if one union is responsible for unloading at all ports in Sweden (idk if this is the case and it wasn't that easy to look up), then that feels very much like a monopoly.
The union represents the workers. It's not a monopoly any more than a country having a single government is a monopoly.
This is such a bullshit pro-corporation take.
Workers aren’t obligated to perform labor. They aren’t slaves.
Imagine another country was delivering opium to your country and the dock workers went on strike to stop it. This same dumb argument would apply.
If Tesla wants Swedish workers to work for them all they have to do is improve working conditions to the prevailing standard and hire a CEO who doesn’t spend most of his time being an asshole to other people on social media. Simple. Karma’s a bitch. Treat other people badly and expect people to return the favor.
Tesla’s profit per vehicle is well above industry standard, they can afford good wages.
Workers aren’t obligated to perform labor. They aren’t slaves.
Imagine another country was delivering opium to your country and the dock workers went on strike to stop it. This same dumb argument would apply.
If Tesla wants Swedish workers to work for them all they have to do is improve working conditions to the prevailing standard and hire a CEO who doesn’t spend most of his time being an asshole to other people on social media. Simple. Karma’s a bitch. Treat other people badly and expect people to return the favor.
Tesla’s profit per vehicle is well above industry standard, they can afford good wages.
Unfortunately your perspective is not going to be popular with this audience. Especially this line:
>Workers aren’t obligated to perform labor. They aren’t slaves.
When companies cooperate with each other and lobby and enforce their own labor laws, it's just the free market.
When workers do the same thing, and are only asking for a fair piece of the pie, it's apparently a "hostage situation."
>Workers aren’t obligated to perform labor. They aren’t slaves.
When companies cooperate with each other and lobby and enforce their own labor laws, it's just the free market.
When workers do the same thing, and are only asking for a fair piece of the pie, it's apparently a "hostage situation."
Are you really advocating that dock workers should have complete control over all foreign trade?
Are you really advocating that CEOs should have complete control over all trade?
No individual dockworker has "complete control", and the union only has the control its members collectively consent to.
No individual dockworker has "complete control", and the union only has the control its members collectively consent to.
Why should workers be denied the right to use their leverage when we governments and corporations always have the full ability to use theirs?
Workers use leverage and they get condemned.
Companies and governments do it and they get praised for being paternal protectors.
If the suits who run the show don’t know how to unload a container ship that’s their problem.
Workers use leverage and they get condemned.
Companies and governments do it and they get praised for being paternal protectors.
If the suits who run the show don’t know how to unload a container ship that’s their problem.
I don't know how to answer your question without knowing who built the port.
Presumably the construction workers.
Are you really adovacting that a foreign CEo should rule the local laws.
Their country, threir rules or he can leave.
I am stronly pro unions as in Sweden, beacuse I worked there, and have seen it. They are not like the US unions. Around 70% of people in Sweden are members of unions for $15/month.
Sweden Tesla worker salary is 4k/month, with full health insurance, free kindergarten, free school, free college. In case they get ill, workers get 2 years of 80% salary, and rehabilitation.
While you have at will contrracts in the US, unions in Sweden have ensured 3 months notice. Unions also negotiate minumum annual raise and gives you annual raise at least equal to inflation.
Unemployment insurance is handled by unions, you must be a member - 1 year of 80% salary and additional year. If needed, new training is obtained for free.
Without a union agreement, Musk workers are slaves.
No serious brand operates without unions.
Their country, threir rules or he can leave.
I am stronly pro unions as in Sweden, beacuse I worked there, and have seen it. They are not like the US unions. Around 70% of people in Sweden are members of unions for $15/month.
Sweden Tesla worker salary is 4k/month, with full health insurance, free kindergarten, free school, free college. In case they get ill, workers get 2 years of 80% salary, and rehabilitation.
While you have at will contrracts in the US, unions in Sweden have ensured 3 months notice. Unions also negotiate minumum annual raise and gives you annual raise at least equal to inflation.
Unemployment insurance is handled by unions, you must be a member - 1 year of 80% salary and additional year. If needed, new training is obtained for free.
Without a union agreement, Musk workers are slaves.
No serious brand operates without unions.
This question is nonsensical.
Should pilots have complete control over all planes in the air?
Should pilots have complete control over all planes in the air?
If they're responsible for handling all of it, pretending that they're not already "in complete control" is disingenuous.
Also, business owners routinely pull the exact reverse, where they withhold or alter their services to extort other participants of the system to give them what they want. Why is it "good business" when the CEO does it but it's "crime" when the workers on the ground do it? Probably, cause it threatens many peoples fantasy that they can be powerful, rich, and in control of the labor one day if they play their cards right.
Also, business owners routinely pull the exact reverse, where they withhold or alter their services to extort other participants of the system to give them what they want. Why is it "good business" when the CEO does it but it's "crime" when the workers on the ground do it? Probably, cause it threatens many peoples fantasy that they can be powerful, rich, and in control of the labor one day if they play their cards right.
The workers of a country should definitely have complete control over all foreign trade. Solidarity strikes organised nationally across unions are just one of such mechanisms.
> Imagine another country was delivering opium to your country and the dock workers went on strike to stop it. This same dumb argument would apply.
Imagine if another country was delivering opium to your country and the dock workers get a cut so they have a financial interest in keeping the opium flowing. You outlaw opium and the dock workers strike grinding all commerce to a halt until you un-outlaw opium.
Monopolies are generally bad. It gives the monopolist nigh absolute power and absolute power will often be abused.
What are most labor unions but monopolies on labor? It would not be so bad if there are competing unions but often there is just one.
Imagine if another country was delivering opium to your country and the dock workers get a cut so they have a financial interest in keeping the opium flowing. You outlaw opium and the dock workers strike grinding all commerce to a halt until you un-outlaw opium.
Monopolies are generally bad. It gives the monopolist nigh absolute power and absolute power will often be abused.
What are most labor unions but monopolies on labor? It would not be so bad if there are competing unions but often there is just one.
So corporations are allowed to be a monopoly (e.g., Google, Ticketmaster, Amazon) but workers don’t get the same privilege.
As soon as it’s workers benefiting from corruption we can’t tolerate it, but as long as it’s a corporation or government benefiting we let it slide.
It’s a double standard. If you’re going to break up a union you’d better break up Amazon.
As soon as it’s workers benefiting from corruption we can’t tolerate it, but as long as it’s a corporation or government benefiting we let it slide.
It’s a double standard. If you’re going to break up a union you’d better break up Amazon.
What does Amazon have monopoly on? Don't downvote, answer!
It really feels like you're being just as hypocritical as the people you're attempting to call out. Why are you anti monopoly when it comes to Google, Ticketmaster, and Amazon, but suddenly ok with monopolies when it comes to unions?
Why can't we just agree that monopolies are bad in both cases?
Why can't we just agree that monopolies are bad in both cases?
> or would they be forced to build their own port where they're allowed to drive the cars off the ship themselves? I'm guessing it's the latter if it's possible at all.
That would probably be difficult, as construction workers and related unions would presumably also join the sympathy strike. Electricians are already involved.
> more of cartels than worker collectives, and getting involved in another unrelated unions negotiation seems to cross that line.
It's in all the unions' interest to defend the current model. Sympathy strikes make sense.
That would probably be difficult, as construction workers and related unions would presumably also join the sympathy strike. Electricians are already involved.
> more of cartels than worker collectives, and getting involved in another unrelated unions negotiation seems to cross that line.
It's in all the unions' interest to defend the current model. Sympathy strikes make sense.
if it was unrelated then their actions would have no effect
Maybe the mailman union will also refuse to deliver mail to Tesla.
That would be SEKO. I'm personally hoping for them and Finansförbundet (bank employees) to signal on Wednesday or Thursday that they'll be joining in, together with an expansion of Transport's involvement. They're all members of the umbrella organisation LO.
Finansförbundet will probably not signal until the strike has been going on for at least a few months, but I believe that a couple of other sectors will.
Tesla is like that guest who comes to your house only to refuse to follow the ways of those who actually live there. Tesla, Amazon and the rest of all these companies that are coming here is acting like it's America - it's not, and they will know this soon enough.
Collective agreements is how you do business in Sweden and their arrogance in thinking that they can come here and impose American business culture on our nation is so nonchalant that it probably have secured the support from the general public in favour of the unions.
Let the games begin...
Finansförbundet will probably not signal until the strike has been going on for at least a few months, but I believe that a couple of other sectors will.
Tesla is like that guest who comes to your house only to refuse to follow the ways of those who actually live there. Tesla, Amazon and the rest of all these companies that are coming here is acting like it's America - it's not, and they will know this soon enough.
Collective agreements is how you do business in Sweden and their arrogance in thinking that they can come here and impose American business culture on our nation is so nonchalant that it probably have secured the support from the general public in favour of the unions.
Let the games begin...
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I sincerely doubt they could bring in their own employees. I bet there are training , operations , and safety issues with that.
> There's a point where unions can come off as more of cartels than worker collectives
Will nobody think of the poor multinational corporations and their billionaire owners?
Sarcasm aside, if Tesla has trouble dealing with labor in a certain country, they are always free to take their business of selling shitty cars out of there. There are other companies that will be glad to fill the gap.
Will nobody think of the poor multinational corporations and their billionaire owners?
Sarcasm aside, if Tesla has trouble dealing with labor in a certain country, they are always free to take their business of selling shitty cars out of there. There are other companies that will be glad to fill the gap.
>... but measures like this seem to go beyond negotiating and is just a hostage situation.
It's not like they didn't try other means first. Capitalists like Musk will happily break labor laws and endanger their employees just so they can make even more money. Asking nicely and being reasonable doesn't work with people like this. It's not the unions who choose to go this route, it's people being forced to play hardball with greedy billionaires.
It's not like they didn't try other means first. Capitalists like Musk will happily break labor laws and endanger their employees just so they can make even more money. Asking nicely and being reasonable doesn't work with people like this. It's not the unions who choose to go this route, it's people being forced to play hardball with greedy billionaires.
I am not entirely sure why tesla chose sweden - it probably affects their quality as well, i mean volvo’s been pretty bad for a while. I do respect the idea of a union but it does sound like a monopoly. Guess socialism is like that.
https://www.transportarbetaren.se/transport-utokar-blockaden...
As Tesla seems to be trying to circumvent the blockade by using other ports, the sympathy strikes is now going to be expanded further, putting all Swedish ports under blockade (against Tesla, specifically).
This second expansion goes into effect midday on the 17th of November.
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https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/konflikten-mellan-if-metall...
According to an interview with a representative from IF Metall on Swedish Radio (public service) yesterday, other measures is to be announced in a few days as well, adding that they have the support of other unions here in Sweden.
These coming measures is due to Tesla still not being willing to negotiate, arguing that they will bring in strike breakers to be able to continue doing business here in Sweden.
As Tesla seems to be trying to circumvent the blockade by using other ports, the sympathy strikes is now going to be expanded further, putting all Swedish ports under blockade (against Tesla, specifically).
This second expansion goes into effect midday on the 17th of November.
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https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/konflikten-mellan-if-metall...
According to an interview with a representative from IF Metall on Swedish Radio (public service) yesterday, other measures is to be announced in a few days as well, adding that they have the support of other unions here in Sweden.
These coming measures is due to Tesla still not being willing to negotiate, arguing that they will bring in strike breakers to be able to continue doing business here in Sweden.
Kind of shitty that when a big company wants something in US they just need to mobilize a few lobbyists and negotiate one-off payments to a few senators, but when workers in Sweden working for those same companies want something they need to strike by the thousands and endanger much needed income.
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Lol, my comment that Sweden losing their car production was flagged.
Rightly so, wildly off-topic when talking about Tesla ignoring how a industry works when trying to enter it in a foreign market.
Tesla knows exactly how industry works, this is why their cars are good and everybody wants to buy them. If the workers doesn't like the reality, they could just change their job.
They're attacking the Swedish model, doing things that no one had done for a century. It's not illegal to bring in local strike breakers (aka scabs) because it's so extremely frowned upon that no one did it anyway. You made your argument the wrong way around - if Tesla don't like the Swedish culture and customs, they can move to a different country.
Americans would go crazy if some swedes swooped in and tried to change fundamental mechanics of the US culture and system from abroad.
An example needs to made here and that's why the other unions are joining in. Your beloved role model will end up with egg on his face.
Americans would go crazy if some swedes swooped in and tried to change fundamental mechanics of the US culture and system from abroad.
An example needs to made here and that's why the other unions are joining in. Your beloved role model will end up with egg on his face.
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You cannot use US anti-union rhetoric to criticize this system because it is completely different from said US system. Or, well, I guess you can but sadly it just makes you look ignorant.