MS Paint is here to stay(blogs.windows.com)
blogs.windows.com
MS Paint is here to stay
https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2017/07/24/ms-paint-stay/
319 コメント
What is, and has been great about MS Paint is that no matter what Windows machine I have been on, I know that I have had it available. No matter if it's my old grandma's computer, if I have needed to quickly do something simple with an image, MS Paint has always been there for me. Now that will no longer be the case. If I have to download and install it on the computer before I use it, then what is the point? It will be faster to just google "MS paint online free" and click the first link.
Additionally you can't download apps off the windows store unless you sign up for /into a Microsoft account, which is a much bigger pain than simply downloading the first app you find searching on Google. Also my corporate windows 10 laptop has the entire window store and modern app infrastructure disabled, meaning I would not be able to access MS Paint.
I have downloaded free apps from the Windows Store without an account twice in the past month.
These are both "desktop bridge" applications and not UWP apps so perhaps that is the difference. They were both free.
I was preparing to sign in after clicking "Get" but ... it just worked.
These are both "desktop bridge" applications and not UWP apps so perhaps that is the difference. They were both free.
I was preparing to sign in after clicking "Get" but ... it just worked.
I think it must have changed recently because you never used to be able to do that.
this is a key people are ignoring. by moving the win32 mspaint from a native file on the filesystem to app-v/Centennial, it will be able to run on non-x86 hardware with emulation. in two years if Windows 10 S and Qualcomm dominate, having legacy apps available in the store will be a bonus not a burden. it will be similar to the OSX/Rosetta days.
This is an artificial disinction made only by their confusing policy. There is no technical reason that Store has to be a gateway for emulating x86.
And I am pretty sure for Windows RT they just compiled mspaint.exe for ARM.
And I am pretty sure for Windows RT they just compiled mspaint.exe for ARM.
> Also my corporate windows 10 laptop has the entire window store and modern app infrastructure disabled
Wow that's... What?
For all its warts, the Windows Store is a secure app delivery platform. Doesn't disabling it merely encourage downloading zipped executables from sleazy unencrypted websites?
Wow that's... What?
For all its warts, the Windows Store is a secure app delivery platform. Doesn't disabling it merely encourage downloading zipped executables from sleazy unencrypted websites?
I don't understand the shock here? Large corporations don't want users installing random apps. I don't see why an NHS laptop, for example, should have Bejewelled installed, or some dodgy app which gives permissions to the user's drives, and uploads files.
Similarly, though admittedly not a problem in the same way with Windows store apps, to Chrome extensions. Those working in secretive environments with naive users shouldn't have something like "Youtube auto-hd" installed, which will feedback every single website they visit to some shady third party analytics company. IMO this is why having even the concept of these apps inside a "secure" (re. enterprise) version of Windows is a massive oversight. I will admit that this is not a problem in the LTSB branch of Windows 10 Enterprise; I had the disabled apps magically re-enable themselves 3 times after "updates" on non-LTSB before switching back over.
Sorry to rant, but in summation, don't be shocked when corporate users want their laptops to be as restricted and purely for work as possible.
Similarly, though admittedly not a problem in the same way with Windows store apps, to Chrome extensions. Those working in secretive environments with naive users shouldn't have something like "Youtube auto-hd" installed, which will feedback every single website they visit to some shady third party analytics company. IMO this is why having even the concept of these apps inside a "secure" (re. enterprise) version of Windows is a massive oversight. I will admit that this is not a problem in the LTSB branch of Windows 10 Enterprise; I had the disabled apps magically re-enable themselves 3 times after "updates" on non-LTSB before switching back over.
Sorry to rant, but in summation, don't be shocked when corporate users want their laptops to be as restricted and purely for work as possible.
> I don't understand the shock here? Large corporations don't want users installing random apps.
Perhaps we should all go back to mainframes and green-screen dumb terminals?
That's why "the shock".
I understand the security issues - they are absolutely valid in today's world.
But the whole reason the PC came about, was because it moved the computing resources from some sacrosanct computing "temple" (complete with acolytes who kept the system running, secure, and managed) to the general office, and allowed the users to customize and control their software and data to allow for a more "agile" flow.
Computer-based spreadsheets, for instance, weren't anything new when VisiCalc appeared on the scene in 1979 (and later on the PC in 1981) - what was new was having such a powerful piece of software available on a machine that was cheap and independent of the "computer room". Users and managers now had direct control of their data and processes, and ultimately this set the stage toward today's reality.
Gone were having to wait (and wait, and wait) for approval to get a particular application installed; gone were having to wait for the budget approval, hardware upgrades or acquisitions, etc - tons of effort, time, planning, etc needed just to get a simple app (if such was even allowed by the mainframe service contract! Maybe that needed renegotiation as well!).
Just go down to ComputerLand, buy a PC and a copy of VisiCalc (or whatever), plop it on a desk, and work. Freedom!
Ever since then, though, there has been this security of the system and data (physical security, data security, backups, viruses, worms, trojans, etc) that has been problematic. Various solutions have been tried, none have been 100% effective. Problems still exist, data gets wiped or lost, employees move on, leaving password-enabled zip files behind nobody knows how to access, data leaves the building, laptops are stolen, viruses and malware abound, cryptolocking happens, and on and on and on...
But people still want their freedom. They want to just download and run a piece of software to make their life and work flow better. They don't want to wait for approval and budgets.
How do you solve this dilemma?
Going back to a locked down system isn't the answer; as tempting as it may seem, it merely moves the problem up the stack, while increasing frustration for the actual users of the systems.
Hence my snarky response - because that was (in a way) considered "ultimate security" - a centralized system, with no smarts at the end nodes. Tightly controlled, regulated, monitored, updated, and secured. Many major companies (most of them gone today) built fortunes on that model. That such few of these companies remain tells you something about how that model faired. Trying to return to it might not be the best thing to do.
What the answer to the problem should be, though, I can't say unfortunately...
Perhaps we should all go back to mainframes and green-screen dumb terminals?
That's why "the shock".
I understand the security issues - they are absolutely valid in today's world.
But the whole reason the PC came about, was because it moved the computing resources from some sacrosanct computing "temple" (complete with acolytes who kept the system running, secure, and managed) to the general office, and allowed the users to customize and control their software and data to allow for a more "agile" flow.
Computer-based spreadsheets, for instance, weren't anything new when VisiCalc appeared on the scene in 1979 (and later on the PC in 1981) - what was new was having such a powerful piece of software available on a machine that was cheap and independent of the "computer room". Users and managers now had direct control of their data and processes, and ultimately this set the stage toward today's reality.
Gone were having to wait (and wait, and wait) for approval to get a particular application installed; gone were having to wait for the budget approval, hardware upgrades or acquisitions, etc - tons of effort, time, planning, etc needed just to get a simple app (if such was even allowed by the mainframe service contract! Maybe that needed renegotiation as well!).
Just go down to ComputerLand, buy a PC and a copy of VisiCalc (or whatever), plop it on a desk, and work. Freedom!
Ever since then, though, there has been this security of the system and data (physical security, data security, backups, viruses, worms, trojans, etc) that has been problematic. Various solutions have been tried, none have been 100% effective. Problems still exist, data gets wiped or lost, employees move on, leaving password-enabled zip files behind nobody knows how to access, data leaves the building, laptops are stolen, viruses and malware abound, cryptolocking happens, and on and on and on...
But people still want their freedom. They want to just download and run a piece of software to make their life and work flow better. They don't want to wait for approval and budgets.
How do you solve this dilemma?
Going back to a locked down system isn't the answer; as tempting as it may seem, it merely moves the problem up the stack, while increasing frustration for the actual users of the systems.
Hence my snarky response - because that was (in a way) considered "ultimate security" - a centralized system, with no smarts at the end nodes. Tightly controlled, regulated, monitored, updated, and secured. Many major companies (most of them gone today) built fortunes on that model. That such few of these companies remain tells you something about how that model faired. Trying to return to it might not be the best thing to do.
What the answer to the problem should be, though, I can't say unfortunately...
What came before Visicalc? My understanding was prior to that there were only custom build "finance" applications which were rather inflexible.
I understand, but what happens is that people will unzip programs from their Downloads folder and just run them from there.
I work in finance. Most web sites you could download an exe from are blocked, downloading exes is disabled and running installers is restricted to admin accounts by group policy. If you do get round all that and do it anyway and you're caught, theres a good chance you'll be fired.
One issue is that some classes of users and locations (e.g. Trading floors) are restricted by law concerning the communications systems they can use for work because all communications regarding financial transactions has to be auditable.
On the other hand most of the banks have their own internal software libraries you can install stuff from and you get a bunch of useful utilities by default such as Irfanview, notepad++, Greenshot or similar. Machines for devs are often less locked down.
One issue is that some classes of users and locations (e.g. Trading floors) are restricted by law concerning the communications systems they can use for work because all communications regarding financial transactions has to be auditable.
On the other hand most of the banks have their own internal software libraries you can install stuff from and you get a bunch of useful utilities by default such as Irfanview, notepad++, Greenshot or similar. Machines for devs are often less locked down.
Bloomberg chat, the Slack of LIBOR fixing.
With a handy built-in evidence trail complete with time stamps?
Glorious. Best part of the article is he switches to using the phone at the end, which was apparently recorded or transcripted as well anyway.
Have a look at The Spider Network by David Enrich. Real eye opener.
But a long way from MS Paint.
But a long way from MS Paint.
> running installers is restricted to admin accounts by group policy.
Hence the popularity of portable apps which don't use installers. The just unzip to any folder and run.
Hence the popularity of portable apps which don't use installers. The just unzip to any folder and run.
Any company can install a reporting agent on their desktops and that will collect basic information like what .exe files have been executed.
Once a portable app shows up in the reports you are simply fired by blatant disregard for the rules and procedures you agreed to when signing your contract.
Finance is a heavily regulated environment and you can't get away with things that would be excusable in other places.
Once a portable app shows up in the reports you are simply fired by blatant disregard for the rules and procedures you agreed to when signing your contract.
Finance is a heavily regulated environment and you can't get away with things that would be excusable in other places.
> Once a portable app shows up in the reports you are simply fired by blatant disregard for the rules and procedures you agreed to when signing your contract.
That seems to be a rather extreme clause; I doubt that a bank would care if a developer installed something that was not whitelisted. It would be a different story if the developer linked against code whose source was not easily attributable.
That seems to be a rather extreme clause; I doubt that a bank would care if a developer installed something that was not whitelisted. It would be a different story if the developer linked against code whose source was not easily attributable.
Why do you doubt that? Is it unreasonable? Students are subject to the same restrictions now.
If an organisation is locking down their computers, they hopefully have set permissions correctly to prevent users from running untrusted programs, no matter what the source.
Oh, it's messy.
In brief, if any of the said applications require Registry entry, it denies that through the permission model that these systems have installed.
If it requires altering some files under some directory, it denies that as well.
Some corporations even restrict such shady websites altogether using an exhaustive list of restricted domains and subdomains, often maintained by a third party, who do this list maintenance full-time for corporates like IBM, TCS, just to name a few.
On top of it, almost all network and device activities are tracked, flash drive ports disabled, etc. to ensure "security".
(Only a handful of underpaid device managers have access to Admin account. Forget the fact that this still doesn't prevent them from doing so at their discretion, or credentials sharing)
In brief, if any of the said applications require Registry entry, it denies that through the permission model that these systems have installed.
If it requires altering some files under some directory, it denies that as well.
Some corporations even restrict such shady websites altogether using an exhaustive list of restricted domains and subdomains, often maintained by a third party, who do this list maintenance full-time for corporates like IBM, TCS, just to name a few.
On top of it, almost all network and device activities are tracked, flash drive ports disabled, etc. to ensure "security".
(Only a handful of underpaid device managers have access to Admin account. Forget the fact that this still doesn't prevent them from doing so at their discretion, or credentials sharing)
I think the argument is that nothing good can come from the store.
Which is a fireable offense. Thus the company is covered in case of disaster.
That is what AppLocker, Software Restriction Policy and similar things are for
> For all its warts, the Windows Store is a secure app delivery platform. Doesn't disabling it merely encourage downloading zipped executables from sleazy unencrypted websites?
In a corporate environment in many cases it is undesired that users install applications. So of course one disables Windows Store. Additionally one prohibits downloading zips etc. I have read of a way how in Windows one can set that files created/downloaded by users cannot be executed, which is also a desired configuration in many corporate environments.
In a corporate environment in many cases it is undesired that users install applications. So of course one disables Windows Store. Additionally one prohibits downloading zips etc. I have read of a way how in Windows one can set that files created/downloaded by users cannot be executed, which is also a desired configuration in many corporate environments.
In our environment, they have enabled Software Restriction Policy to block any executable to be run, except in trusted (and read-only) locations.
That is a pretty effective way to prevent unwanted software to be installed / run.
That is a pretty effective way to prevent unwanted software to be installed / run.
> For all its warts, the Windows Store is a secure app delivery platform.
For some value of $secure, yes. It's has package integrity checks, sure, but there's plenty of PUPs, adware and spyware in apps that for some corporate networks are considered a no-no.
For some value of $secure, yes. It's has package integrity checks, sure, but there's plenty of PUPs, adware and spyware in apps that for some corporate networks are considered a no-no.
You shouldn't be running binaries you don't trust no matter where they come from :) . And honestly I would probably use the MS store if it didn't suck balls.
Seriously whoever designed their "modern" UI needs to get booted. It's terrible and the main reason nobody uses the windows app store.
Ubuntu, MacOS, and even Steam on Windows all have a good app store interface. MS designed the OS and their version is a UI nightmare.
I'm hoping in some way there's some MS employees watching this thread. Please fix the damn app store by just extending the functionality of "add/remove programs" which everyone knows how to use and works fine.
Seriously whoever designed their "modern" UI needs to get booted. It's terrible and the main reason nobody uses the windows app store.
Ubuntu, MacOS, and even Steam on Windows all have a good app store interface. MS designed the OS and their version is a UI nightmare.
I'm hoping in some way there's some MS employees watching this thread. Please fix the damn app store by just extending the functionality of "add/remove programs" which everyone knows how to use and works fine.
I agree that the Windows App Store is a bad experience. I don't agree that they should extend add/remove programs to encompass this functionality. It's from literally 1995 and should be removed from Windows. It's actually really funny to me how some dialogue boxes and options modals have been unchanged for 20 years.
add/remove is a better UX than the Windows Store even though it's barely been touched for 20 years :)
This is pretty normal, users who have this enabled would not have the admin permissions to install apps from sleazy websites. The store also includes things like games and social media apps which corporate love to block. IT support is another issue, if users can install random apps from the store then they will expect IT to support random apps.
We also had a look at the enterprise store recently to publish our own apps too, but the reliance on azure cloud means that we'll be publishing through other means for the foreseeable future.
It's amazing to see how MS destroying it's own platform.
We also had a look at the enterprise store recently to publish our own apps too, but the reliance on azure cloud means that we'll be publishing through other means for the foreseeable future.
It's amazing to see how MS destroying it's own platform.
For what it's worth at work we had the same thing when moving from Windows 7 to Windows 10. Though they got rid of the restriction when people bitched about not being able to run the default Windows calculator.
Since a lot of us are programmers we were effectively allowed to install anything else normal that we wanted, but for some reason metro applications were disabled.
Since a lot of us are programmers we were effectively allowed to install anything else normal that we wanted, but for some reason metro applications were disabled.
"Windows Store is a secure app delivery platform"
Ha ha ...
Ha ha ...
Some motivation for your reaction would be great!
It is not vetted properly nor delivers apps people need. Other than the stupid forced ones that is.
Additionally it does not work properly without a Microsoft account (could've changed) forcing it to be off if Active Domain is used.
Additionally it does not work properly without a Microsoft account (could've changed) forcing it to be off if Active Domain is used.
Since Windows 8.1 a couple years back, you can sign into a Microsoft account in the Store on top of an Active Domain account without confusing/combining them. Since Windows 8.1 you can even sign into a Microsoft account on an individual app basis, signing in for specific app purchases only. Since early Windows 10 that individual app basis has been expanded so that most free apps don't require a Microsoft account to sign in at all, if you so desire.
Furthermore, the Windows Store for Business uses Active Domain accounts entirely and allows you to connect Windows Store licenses to corporate licensing policies, if you want to control corporate application requisitions centrally but still give users some individual control in Store installed apps. (Not to mention carrying private internal apps for an enterprise.) WSB has been around in various capacities since Windows 8.1 as well, but also fully came into its own very early in Windows 10.
As for application vetting and "apps people need", that's entirely a subjective judgment, but there is an application vetting process in place which is more than you can say about the traditional google for an MSI/EXE and hope its correct install process.
Furthermore, the Windows Store for Business uses Active Domain accounts entirely and allows you to connect Windows Store licenses to corporate licensing policies, if you want to control corporate application requisitions centrally but still give users some individual control in Store installed apps. (Not to mention carrying private internal apps for an enterprise.) WSB has been around in various capacities since Windows 8.1 as well, but also fully came into its own very early in Windows 10.
As for application vetting and "apps people need", that's entirely a subjective judgment, but there is an application vetting process in place which is more than you can say about the traditional google for an MSI/EXE and hope its correct install process.
Well, people said Updates were a trusted channel until Microsoft started rounding up Win 7/8 installations. I can certainly see the once bitten twice shy sentiment from many.
You totally can. This is a misconception. And it has been that way for a long time now. Everything that is free can be downloaded without account.
Not if the entire App and Windows Store system is disabled per corporate policy and/or firewall.
That's not really MS's fault then, is it? If IT doesn't want you installing apps, that's on them.
>> That's not really MS's fault then, is it?
Yes it is. Paint has been a bundled app for decades and they have decided not to include it any more. "Available for free" is different than "comes included". Also, this whole thing looks like a big advertisement for their new Paint3D or whatever it is. They promote it in the blog and point out that it has a lot of features Paint has, and oh by the way it's free in the store too just like Paint.
Yes it is. Paint has been a bundled app for decades and they have decided not to include it any more. "Available for free" is different than "comes included". Also, this whole thing looks like a big advertisement for their new Paint3D or whatever it is. They promote it in the blog and point out that it has a lot of features Paint has, and oh by the way it's free in the store too just like Paint.
I think 90% of people here wouldn't comment on this story had they actually tried paint3d.
It's just a mspaint with an updated layout and more features. Y'all are arguing about msoffice 2007 vs 2010.
I never downloaded it, is just bundled like every other utility into insider versions of windows10, its certainly superior to paint.
Almost a bit worrying how fearful of change some hn people are.
It's just a mspaint with an updated layout and more features. Y'all are arguing about msoffice 2007 vs 2010.
I never downloaded it, is just bundled like every other utility into insider versions of windows10, its certainly superior to paint.
Almost a bit worrying how fearful of change some hn people are.
But corporate policies can also uninstall it. I've been on plenty of corporate or educational machines without it installed.
You're trying very hard to be a victim here. It isn't optimal that it is removed from the stock OS, but its still there.
You're trying very hard to be a victim here. It isn't optimal that it is removed from the stock OS, but its still there.
>> You're trying very hard to be a victim here.
Nope. I run Linux or OSX at home so I don't really care one way or the other. But I do see it as pushing some kind of agenda on MS part since it is a change and it did promote another program as an alternative. I see clearly in this case.
Nope. I run Linux or OSX at home so I don't really care one way or the other. But I do see it as pushing some kind of agenda on MS part since it is a change and it did promote another program as an alternative. I see clearly in this case.
But you can install any app from Sourceforge/<OtherMalwareRiddenSite>, it's just that MS has chosen not to offer their App Store in the Win10 Long Term Support Branch, which most enterprises use. So they've actually locked you out of the walled garden, which is a bit funny.
Sounds like a bad IT department that doesn't know how to configure group policy rather than anything to do with Microsoft to be honest.
No, IT department says "You guys are sensible, you can install whatever you like. But we'll keep you on Win10 LTSB, where MS promises to do less spying and break stuff less often." But Win10 LTSB doesn't have the MS App Store, so any app store exclusive software (mainly MS stuff) cannot be installed.
> You guys are sensible, you can install whatever you like
As I said, a bad IT department.
As I said, a bad IT department.
One main paramount of security is to reduce your attack surface. One of the first steps to that is to uninstall/remove things that don't belong or that you will not use. An ad-riddled(with ads likely served by a relatively insecure ad network) game is not something that belongs in a corporate network.
Try removing CandyCrushSaga and Facebook, and XBoxIdentityProvider(among many others)...they come right back after the next round of updates.
If you're going allow Windows Store with all of its junk(that you have very little control over), might as well allow Bonzai Buddy, Ask Toolbar, and Super PC Cleaner 2017 Premium Edition Recommended Microsoft!
And the argument that Windows Store apps are more secure so even if a ad or application is malicious the damage is limited doesn't hold water. A quick google will bring up tons of examples of code escaping sandboxes, even entire virtual machines. Any environment, no matter how secure, will always benefit from a reduction in attack surface area.
Try removing CandyCrushSaga and Facebook, and XBoxIdentityProvider(among many others)...they come right back after the next round of updates.
If you're going allow Windows Store with all of its junk(that you have very little control over), might as well allow Bonzai Buddy, Ask Toolbar, and Super PC Cleaner 2017 Premium Edition Recommended Microsoft!
And the argument that Windows Store apps are more secure so even if a ad or application is malicious the damage is limited doesn't hold water. A quick google will bring up tons of examples of code escaping sandboxes, even entire virtual machines. Any environment, no matter how secure, will always benefit from a reduction in attack surface area.
Well, if your policy allows installing random apps from the Internet but forbids installing sandboxed and vetted apps, then you're not making any sense, regardless of whether the latter type of apps may still be a risk.
I didn't catch the angle in one of the parent posts that everything BUT windows store was allowed, but re-reading the chain I can see that now. Yes, blocking sandboxed and vetted apps but allowing anything else is indeed nonsense.
The biggest issue with the Windows Store is the forced installation of several apps that do not belong in an enterprise environment, unnecessarily increasing attack surface.
The biggest issue with the Windows Store is the forced installation of several apps that do not belong in an enterprise environment, unnecessarily increasing attack surface.
Yes, and the person I was replying to works in a place that seems to allow users to install random software from the internet. Thats 99.99% of your attack surface, why not restrict that?
I'm not going to get into the details of sandboxing here, but needless to say managed applications running in a sandbox are a big improvement over unmanaged, unsigned applications running with admin rights.
I'm not going to get into the details of sandboxing here, but needless to say managed applications running in a sandbox are a big improvement over unmanaged, unsigned applications running with admin rights.
Agreed. See comment to your sibling post.
Sadly even now I run into large software companies that require users to have local admin privileges(and disable UAC) for their software to function correctly. And that's in the finance sector.
I've been dealing mostly in the healthcare sector now and it's even worse. Particularly with imaging software vendors. I deal with some that still only support Windows XP.
Sadly even now I run into large software companies that require users to have local admin privileges(and disable UAC) for their software to function correctly. And that's in the finance sector.
I've been dealing mostly in the healthcare sector now and it's even worse. Particularly with imaging software vendors. I deal with some that still only support Windows XP.
I've seen companies still distributing software updates on floppies, for that $25k spin-a-ma-thingy in the corner with the proprietary interface to the Win98 PC, that keeps on working and delivering useful results.
A famous example from the car industry is McLaren having a stack of 25-year-old Compaq LTE 5280 laptops, running DOS, because that's the only machine that will run the proprietary CA card module for the diagnostic software for the McLaren F1 (106 cars produced '92-'98, 100 left today, each valued north of $10 million).
A famous example from the car industry is McLaren having a stack of 25-year-old Compaq LTE 5280 laptops, running DOS, because that's the only machine that will run the proprietary CA card module for the diagnostic software for the McLaren F1 (106 cars produced '92-'98, 100 left today, each valued north of $10 million).
Wasn't an issue before MS removed core functionality from their desktop OS. At some point one wonders if Apple's success has Microsoft regretting that Windows wasn't locked down and app-ified from the beginning.
It's MS's fault because paint should continue to be included as part of the base install.
Compared with the alternative (bundled crapware, invasive ads, fake download buttons) rampant on the "old school" download sites, authenticating with Microsoft seems like a very small price to pay.
Which would you rather users on your network do?
Which would you rather users on your network do?
In this case it's not really a question of technical possibilities, but corporate policy: if it says you can't install any software without permission, then better don't try as it can be used against you.
If there is no such clause in your contract, there is no much difference between downloading and using Portable Apps Platform software (which is mostly open source, but beware of catches such as IrfanView which is free as in beer only for non-commercial use) and bringing your own copy of Paint (on a pendrive, for example).
This is also true for the App Stores (Mac, iOS, Android), all of which require you to make an account before even using it - Mac might still be an exception, but only barely.
All the official ones on commercial platforms, maybe; fdroid on Android works fine with no login, for instance, and GNU/Linux desktops have the equivalent in package managers.
Everything useful has been implemented online already. Case in point: http://www.jswidget.com/index-ipaint.html
(This is just one of many paint-in-a-browser sites.)
(This is just one of many paint-in-a-browser sites.)
I don't think this is true anymore.
I think it's a good thing that Microsoft is reducing the size of their base OS and decoupling many of the apps from the Windows release cycle.
It definitely does, however, feel like the end of a era.
It definitely does, however, feel like the end of a era.
Hopefully they continue by removing:
Candy Crush, "Get Office", Minecraft, ... and all other trash that gets installed by default.
Candy Crush, "Get Office", Minecraft, ... and all other trash that gets installed by default.
When that "Get Office" thing first popped-up, I was sure my PC was infected with malware and came to the brink of formatting my hard drive.
Later came the random console pop-up from the automatic WSL updates [1] and then I did panic enough to actually format all the things but that's another story.
[1]: https://github.com/Microsoft/BashOnWindows/issues/841
Later came the random console pop-up from the automatic WSL updates [1] and then I did panic enough to actually format all the things but that's another story.
[1]: https://github.com/Microsoft/BashOnWindows/issues/841
The random console popups give me the jeebies! I still don't know what causes them. Never had such things on older Windows/Lenovo machines.
You might want to review the scheduled tasks. My system had "OfficeBackgroundTaskHandlerRegistration" set to run every hour. It only pops up for an instant, but it would grab input focus and thus do bad things to my blood pressure.
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I remember Windows XP where all of the extras were tiny and actually good. From what I've seen even stuff like Solitaire has ads these days :G
...the integrated advertising platform, cloud software, the mandatory spying components...
This is my problem with Windows 10. It is no longer an operating system it is an advertising platform.
This isn't massively new either:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Desktop
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Desktop
Active Desktop was always optional, wasn't it? And was it really used for advertising by default? I thought it was mostly arbitrary browser windows that you could attach to the desktop.
Active Desktop was on by default in Windows 98 and had channels from content partners that pushed to the desktop.
No. This was something that your PC manufacturer might have done after an install but not by default when installing from scratch.
Also, a completely different thing entirely.
Also, a completely different thing entirely.
It's both. Having ads on some apps doesn't make it not an OS anymore. I won't deny it's an advertising platform, just like android or ios or television or radio or the internet. And while it's equally annoying on all those media/systems, it doesn't lessen their or usefulness
There are ads in the Windows UI. I've been an iOS user for 9 years and can't recall seeing an ad in the OS. So it does not seem "just like" iOS, at all.
Music has started showing Apple Music ads, and Apple has also advertised its News app with a push notification on one of my devices.
The fact that Apple Watch has its own pre-installed app feels like an ad to me as well.
And don't get me started on App Store ads... https://twitter.com/nuthatch/status/879783700279418881
The fact that Apple Watch has its own pre-installed app feels like an ad to me as well.
And don't get me started on App Store ads... https://twitter.com/nuthatch/status/879783700279418881
I've heard this but I've not yet seen these UI ads people keep talking about. Are they in pro?
Not sure iOS belongs on that list.
I'm not a user, but I assume ads exist in some IOS apps?
That is so annoying, in particular that you can't remove a lot of the junk.
They're not bundled with the OS. They're installed automatically after Windows installation is complete.
I'm not sure I would consider paint at the forefront of bloat, given that the base OS runs in the tens of gigs. I wouldn't be surprised if the default background image is larger than mspaint.exe. To say nothing of the store apps they auto install for you.
It's not necessarily the size of the executable but rather that it's another executable the part of the build and test process of the base image.
Pinball had to be removed for this sort of reason.
Pinball had to be removed for this sort of reason.
> Pinball had to be removed for this sort of reason.
What? No. It was removed because it was a 32bit application written by a 3rd party and there was a hard to fix bug on 64bit windows that made it unplayable, so they dropped it.
Source: Raymond Chen - https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20121218-00/?p=...
What? No. It was removed because it was a 32bit application written by a 3rd party and there was a hard to fix bug on 64bit windows that made it unplayable, so they dropped it.
Source: Raymond Chen - https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20121218-00/?p=...
That doesn't make sense, it could be run on WoW64. (even Visual Studio is 32-bit)
Visual Studio is not a part of Windows.
From Raymond Chen's answer to this question in the first comment to the same blog post:
> That would have been even more work, because there was at the time no infrastructure in Setup for having 32-bit-only components. (And then automatically uninstalling it when WOW64 was disabled.)
From Raymond Chen's answer to this question in the first comment to the same blog post:
> That would have been even more work, because there was at the time no infrastructure in Setup for having 32-bit-only components. (And then automatically uninstalling it when WOW64 was disabled.)
I was under the impression pinball was removed because it was basically unsupportable and too had too much low level hacky graphics code to port across changes in the graphics subsystems. A shame though, it was a fun game.
They're replacing it with "Paint 3D" though, which comes with huge 3D models of smilies built-in. The net result is more bloat, not less.
6.36 MB, that's how much space takes MS Paint. In era when web pages sizes are no longer counted in kilo- but megabytes is this really a meaningful size reduction? Because it's definitely a meaningful feature loss.
"reducing the size of their base OS" is completely irrelevant.
I don't have a Win10 mspaint.exe for comparison, but the one from XP is 336KB.
It's a damn shame that a lot of apps these days seem to be >1MB, yet are even more featureless.
If you want to talk about reducing size, there's plenty of other low-hanging fruit of more questionable utility in the OS.
I don't have a Win10 mspaint.exe for comparison, but the one from XP is 336KB.
It's a damn shame that a lot of apps these days seem to be >1MB, yet are even more featureless.
If you want to talk about reducing size, there's plenty of other low-hanging fruit of more questionable utility in the OS.
There's so much more before Paint becomes a blip on the map.
There will still be a Paint on every Windows machine, it's just Paint 3D instead of MS Paint from now on. And yes, Paint 3D allows to manipulate 2D images as MS Paint did.
Yeah it's funny. Had they branded this ordeal "Paint gets an upgrade" instead of "Paint gets replaced" nobody would care.
That was how it was branded—Paint 3D replaced mspaint.exe and it was positioned as an upgrade (Paint → Paint 3D). But there was substantial backlash when Paint 3D didn’t do all that mspaint.exe had done, and Microsoft caved to pressure and put mspaint.exe back a build or two later.
Hardly an "upgrade" if functionality that people use gets removed...
Something can still be an upgrade for the vast majority even if it doesn't do 100% of the same stuff as it's predecessor...
to be fair, how hard would it be to have feature parity with an app as simple as MSpaint?
You wouldn't think that hard, but look at this thread and all the different ways people are using it. And for them not having feature parity could mean changing keybindings!
Plus it does do some off the wall stuff, someone in this thread mentioned it can pull images from a scanner!?
Plus it does do some off the wall stuff, someone in this thread mentioned it can pull images from a scanner!?
The folks in Cupertino need to learn this.
>What is, and has been great about MS Paint is that no matter what Windows machine I have been on, I know that I have had it available.
Completely agreed. This is basically Microsoft officially confirming that yes, MSPaint will be gone from Windows. Seems kind of senseless.
Completely agreed. This is basically Microsoft officially confirming that yes, MSPaint will be gone from Windows. Seems kind of senseless.
just use paint 3d, I just tried it out, seems a simple enough replacement for most simple editing tasks
It's slower to start than Paint (on this laptop at least), and I can't see any way to import an image using a scanner using it (one of my main use cases for Paint).
And why on earth does the menu icon in Paint 3D look like a folder icon?
And why on earth does the menu icon in Paint 3D look like a folder icon?
If MS can do something worse that MS Paint, is MS Paint 3d.
It looks like Paint3D can do some pretty cool things: https://webmshare.com/NK89R
Paint 3D is actually a decent app. I think people are going to hate it by default though.
They could do what Apple does with Java: provide a stub tool that, when run, asks permission to download and install the real thing. That streamlines the "download and install" process.
For Paint, I'm not sure that would be a big win, disk space-wise. mspaint.exe is around 6.5 MB on my system, but it may need additional files. However, they could do the same for Notepad (which probably isn't on the firing line yet because quite a few installers and updaters launch it by hard-coded path if users want to read release notes) and a few other tools and share the code for asking permission between those.
For Paint, I'm not sure that would be a big win, disk space-wise. mspaint.exe is around 6.5 MB on my system, but it may need additional files. However, they could do the same for Notepad (which probably isn't on the firing line yet because quite a few installers and updaters launch it by hard-coded path if users want to read release notes) and a few other tools and share the code for asking permission between those.
> no matter what Windows machine I have been on, I know that I have had it available
So MS Paint is to Windows what Vi is to Unix?
That is, no matter which editor you prefer, you'll always end up learning Vi, at least its basics. Because when in doubt, it may be the only viable editor that exists on your target system for sure.
So MS Paint is to Windows what Vi is to Unix?
That is, no matter which editor you prefer, you'll always end up learning Vi, at least its basics. Because when in doubt, it may be the only viable editor that exists on your target system for sure.
To clarify Paint's appeal; in addition to this list https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14845533 , if you want to drag a square selection of something somewhere else, paint is probably still the goto app in 2017. If not, it has been for far too long. It's a failure on the part of other image apps. Paint hits a power/accessibility sweet spot.
More pertinently, what happens when your grandma searches for "MS Paint" in the Store, other than needing an account? We all know the store is mostly trash and I have no doubt that people pushing their trash will leap on this chance to flood the search results for relevant keywords.
Grandma will first search paint in the start menu. And then she will open the highlighted entry labelled 'Paint 3D'. Then she will promptly close the abomination that appears on screen after 10 seconds.
Free applications can be downloaded without an account. I downloaded Spotify from the Store without being logged.
This is precisely the reason I started using linux over windows - the "standard" tools available on almost every machine I would come across impressed me with their power and ease of use. Of course, while not all, most of these are from the gnu toolset - hence the occasional requests for gnu to be included in the default moniker.
Because I infrequently use windows, it makes the presence of notepad, paint, and calc even more important. They are the tools I reach for first to accomplish simple tasks on Windows. Happy to hear Paint is staying.
Because I infrequently use windows, it makes the presence of notepad, paint, and calc even more important. They are the tools I reach for first to accomplish simple tasks on Windows. Happy to hear Paint is staying.
Thus yet reason for windows users to do Google searches and follow the instructions for what they find. Which if it's malware will be "download and run ...."
I've been provisioning some light VM's for legacy applications, and I'm using Windows For Legacy PC's.
I was very upset when I realized there wasn't paint available (at leas the way I configured it).
I was very upset when I realized there wasn't paint available (at leas the way I configured it).
I was surprised to be enjoying using Paint at times, and as a keyboard fan, my only regret is that it's hard to pick colors (so actually painting gets slower). If MS had improved that part, I'd be using it on a regular basis.
> It will be faster to just google "MS paint online free" and click the first link.
I imagine that will be a common reaction, in which case Microsoft is adding one more to the channels of malware distribution.
I imagine that will be a common reaction, in which case Microsoft is adding one more to the channels of malware distribution.
paint on windows 3.1 had more features. for example, it had the ability to erase one color to another color. I was a bit shocked when I opened paint in '98
it's probably bundled with the OS as an Universal app. no need to install it separately.
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Sure, if you want an adware addled version from one of the nefarious software downloads sites.
Windows store is pretty simple, I'll just go there.
Windows store is pretty simple, I'll just go there.
I mean something like [1]. That was literally the first result when I googled for mspaint online. I agree that if you are already downloading something you might as well download the real version from the Windows Store.
[1]: http://www.jswidget.com/index-ipaint.html
[1]: http://www.jswidget.com/index-ipaint.html
This thread shows clearly the negativity around everything Microsoft does, especially if you compare to other technology companies. Apple deprecates some API or removes a feature? "It's the future, you have to adapt, etc" Microsoft deprecates a toy program made 25 years ago, but still offers the option of downloading it for free? "How dare they, I want it in the base install, etc"
Microsoft has a serious and ongoing PR crisis, and not just for historical reasons (90s antitrust, etc).
There are undoubtedly many highly intelligent, well-meaning people working there, but the ongoing occurrence of highly-publicized customer screwage - such as the aggressive telemetry in W10 - and the ongoing security negligence (e.g. in failing to properly audit & fully close SMB RCEs) seems to totally undermine any goodwill created by specific products or teams within the company.
As a result the press cuts them little to no slack, and they do get hammered for things that AAPL/GOOG/FB/... could probably quietly get away with.
There are undoubtedly many highly intelligent, well-meaning people working there, but the ongoing occurrence of highly-publicized customer screwage - such as the aggressive telemetry in W10 - and the ongoing security negligence (e.g. in failing to properly audit & fully close SMB RCEs) seems to totally undermine any goodwill created by specific products or teams within the company.
As a result the press cuts them little to no slack, and they do get hammered for things that AAPL/GOOG/FB/... could probably quietly get away with.
At some point, it stops being isolated incidents and starts being a pattern of decision-making. IMO, Microsoft has a crisis in the way that Windows is managed, and part of that is that the C-Level level of the company either no longer cares about Windows, or actually supports the decisions that are made. You may have thought that at some point the reputational damage caused by the way that telemetry was handled, or the fall-out from the unethical Windows 10 upgrade process, would have triggered action by the CEO. In both cases, nothing.
One of the (many, many) reasons I ditched OS X after more than 10 years and went back to Linux and Windows, depending on the task at hand, is the removal of the colored Finder labels.
What an inane reason, you may say.
But IMHO it was one of the best features ever introduced into desktop computing. Simple, easy to see colored backgrounds that you could assign to files to organize or tag them as you saw fit. (seen/not seen, reviewed/not reviewed, good/bad/meh, and so on)
Maybe Mac users are less vocal about the removal of features (or they are simply fewer) but this kind of blatant disregard for the needs and established workflows of your customers has a long term effect on a company's image.
What an inane reason, you may say.
But IMHO it was one of the best features ever introduced into desktop computing. Simple, easy to see colored backgrounds that you could assign to files to organize or tag them as you saw fit. (seen/not seen, reviewed/not reviewed, good/bad/meh, and so on)
Maybe Mac users are less vocal about the removal of features (or they are simply fewer) but this kind of blatant disregard for the needs and established workflows of your customers has a long term effect on a company's image.
Wasn't removed, just tweaked. It shows a colored dot now instead of a background.
Finder still has colored labels. It's just now a dot of color next to the name instead of a background. I think they made this change because you can now apply multiple colors to the same file at the same time (and you can search your entire filesystem for tagged files too).
http://i.imgur.com/mO32PGQ.png
http://i.imgur.com/mO32PGQ.png
Sigh. My client's file server at the time was full of PSD files that designers colour-coded based on how urgent/finished something was. It was the best Finder feature ever.
It's a good example of how Apple's stubbornness can ruin software: some designers had a misguided idea about the cloud ("file systems are bad, people are too dumb for folders"), so they tried to build iCloud around isolated app silos. Then they realised that it gets messy once you have lots of files, and instead of admitting their mistake, they doubled down on not having folders and replaced colour labels by tags (which require more clicks than labels, and are much harder to see).
Of course, one version later they did give up on app-based silos, and introduced iCloud Drive. But what a stupid journey that was, and you can still see the scars in Apple's UI (app-based folders cluttering iCloud Drive, dedicated "tags" input field in every Save File dialog).
It's a good example of how Apple's stubbornness can ruin software: some designers had a misguided idea about the cloud ("file systems are bad, people are too dumb for folders"), so they tried to build iCloud around isolated app silos. Then they realised that it gets messy once you have lots of files, and instead of admitting their mistake, they doubled down on not having folders and replaced colour labels by tags (which require more clicks than labels, and are much harder to see).
Of course, one version later they did give up on app-based silos, and introduced iCloud Drive. But what a stupid journey that was, and you can still see the scars in Apple's UI (app-based folders cluttering iCloud Drive, dedicated "tags" input field in every Save File dialog).
That system is still there, and at the time you thought it was removed actually got some pretty nice usability and searchability upgrades. I use tags extensively to this day. They just have a slightly different appearance in the UI.
Apple deprecates some API or removes a feature? "It's the future, you have to adapt, etc" Microsoft deprecates a toy program made 25 years ago, but still offers the option of downloading it for free?
The reason a lot of people, including me, chose MS instead of Apple (or now, Google) is because of their reputation for backwards compatibility.
The reason a lot of people, including me, chose MS instead of Apple (or now, Google) is because of their reputation for backwards compatibility.
That's also a huge problem with SaaS (e.g. Google docs): the software can break even while using it. In that respect, even Windows 3.1 was actually much better.
Yes that's a good point. Apple and MS clearly have different values when it comes to OS development. Microsoft favors compatibility, at the cost of having to maintain legacy baggage; Apple favours simplification and streamlining, at the cost of compatibility. I'm glad both companies exist and can see value in both approaches.
You know the rule, Apple ALWAYS gets a pass. No matter what they do, no matter how bad they treat their customers, no matter how awful their "upgrades" are, no matter how non-configurable and locked-in their products get over time, no matter the lack of innovation for the past 5 years, they always get a pass. Deal with it, that Jobs residue works its magic for a loooooong time.
And MS Paint got laughed at for the best part of its lifecycle, and for good reasons too. But now that it's gone, everybody goes mad.
Really, if you dig deep enough you might find people decrying the demise of f'ing Clippy. Well maybe that's hyperbole, but you get my point.
Really, if you dig deep enough you might find people decrying the demise of f'ing Clippy. Well maybe that's hyperbole, but you get my point.
I poured one out when the Agents Framework was semi-silently removed in Windows 7. I spent many hours building things with that, including class presentations and stupid choose-your-own-adventure game websites with the basic text-to-speech options and the animations of Robby the Robot and Peedy the Parrot, et al.
Clippy was a good idea implemented poorly and ahead of its time. Cortana/Siri/Alexa/Google Assistant is the new the Clippy, RIP Clippy.
Clippy was a good idea implemented poorly and ahead of its time. Cortana/Siri/Alexa/Google Assistant is the new the Clippy, RIP Clippy.
Clippy died for our sins
I've seen Apple and Google get plenty of criticism for whatever actions they do.
There should be a type of law like Poes Law to describe this behavior.
There should be a type of law like Poes Law to describe this behavior.
Do you read Apple threads? It's like nothing but hate once they do something new.
Also, everyone generally liked paint's simplicity, no we have stuff like candy crush default installed on Windows.
Sure, maybe not a huge deal for most people but I can see how some would be disappointed.
Also, everyone generally liked paint's simplicity, no we have stuff like candy crush default installed on Windows.
Sure, maybe not a huge deal for most people but I can see how some would be disappointed.
People seem to forget the amount of outrage that was generated when they announced the iPad.
It was a strange phenomenon. Everyone railed against it in so many ways, then did a complete 180.
It was a strange phenomenon. Everyone railed against it in so many ways, then did a complete 180.
Microsoft owns 90% of the market, there is simply more people to complain.
I wish they would just get rid of notepad.exe. What a piece of garbage.
I find the title very contradictory to the article. It's going to "stay", but in the Windows Store (so you have to download), and with very subtle words they say that it's not going to get any updates. So, no Microsoft, you're saying it's going to go more than you're saying it's going to stay.
What updates do you want to see in MS Paint? It's feature complete. Bug fixes?
WebP support would be nice - but that's because Paint is a GUI around GDI/GDI+, so if GDI gets WebP support then Paint gets it for free.
I just want to take a moment to rant about what an awful user experience Paint 3D was for me. I was using Windows for a short while because graphics under Linux weren't working well (GPU was new at the time, it took a couple of months for it to become reliable enough to use as a daily driver under Linux), and installed the Creator's update, which setup Paint 3D as the default program for every image file it could recognize. Paint 3D is a joke for all the image stuff I want to do; cropping, resizing, highlighting, mostly, and the user interface was pretty confusing all around.
And, I couldn't figure out how to uninstall it! It wasn't uninstallable in the normal ways, and I don't think I ever figured out how to do so.
I won't miss Paint, and I never used it, but I definitely don't consider Paint 3D an upgrade or improvement. And, I really hate Microsoft's standard practice of replacing file associations even if I've already setup my own before one of their apps gets installed (I had a couple of other tools setup for images, and they got replaced in the defaults for like 30 file types). They do it with pretty much every app they distribute. It's presumptuous.
And, I couldn't figure out how to uninstall it! It wasn't uninstallable in the normal ways, and I don't think I ever figured out how to do so.
I won't miss Paint, and I never used it, but I definitely don't consider Paint 3D an upgrade or improvement. And, I really hate Microsoft's standard practice of replacing file associations even if I've already setup my own before one of their apps gets installed (I had a couple of other tools setup for images, and they got replaced in the defaults for like 30 file types). They do it with pretty much every app they distribute. It's presumptuous.
lots of people raging..... about resizing and cropping.... So I figure I'd have a go
I haven't used Paint 3d before until a few moments ago, and very quickly worked out how to resize and crop an image. Seemed simple enough. The image resizing is actually better than most I've seen.
I haven't used Paint 3d before until a few moments ago, and very quickly worked out how to resize and crop an image. Seemed simple enough. The image resizing is actually better than most I've seen.
It's not so much that I couldn't have figured it out (though I seem to recall it was not immediately obvious how to do anything, to me), rather it changed my selected applications. I'd set it up the way I liked it, with software I was familiar with and happy with...and an OS update removed that configuration and pointed to Paint 3D instead, an application I hadn't asked for, and seemingly could not uninstall (at least, I couldn't figure out how to uninstall it using the normal process for uninstalling applications).
I should be clear: I don't know Windows. I've used it very rarely over the past couple of decades. I keep a Windows partition around for gaming and audio work (though even that no longer really requires Windows these days, as my favorite games are on Linux and even audio isn't awful under Linux anymore). So, if someone knows their way around Windows, my complaints might seem sort of stupid. Maybe it's trivial to fix all of the annoyances I had; but they were frustrating for me. For me, there was just mysterious stuff happening on my machine and I didn't know how to fix it and I didn't like it.
I should be clear: I don't know Windows. I've used it very rarely over the past couple of decades. I keep a Windows partition around for gaming and audio work (though even that no longer really requires Windows these days, as my favorite games are on Linux and even audio isn't awful under Linux anymore). So, if someone knows their way around Windows, my complaints might seem sort of stupid. Maybe it's trivial to fix all of the annoyances I had; but they were frustrating for me. For me, there was just mysterious stuff happening on my machine and I didn't know how to fix it and I didn't like it.
philtar(3)
I think most people would say the same for MSPaint, too. It's why I use Paint.NET, which is simple to use but also has a lot of great features.
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That's a clickbait title if I ever saw one. It seems Microsoft is trying to force uwp apps down our throats. It is sad because classic programs systematically feels snappier and are more efficient. They show their age, but are definitely less annoying than their sexier windows 10 version.
I don't know how many time I tried =really tried= to use the photo app or the new remote desktop app, but I always come back very frustrated to the classic version.
I don't know how many time I tried =really tried= to use the photo app or the new remote desktop app, but I always come back very frustrated to the classic version.
In case you didn't know, the Windows Store can also be used to distribute classical desktop apps, which in this case is likely the way Paint is going as well.
> The original art app isn’t going anywhere – except to the Windows Store for free!
Does it mean that from now on we would have to download it?
Does it mean that from now on we would have to download it?
I think so. That also means that for shared or strictly managed computers, it won't be installed or installable.
No more screenshots on the hospital PC, then.
No more screenshots on the hospital PC, then.
Shift-WindowsKey+S is the new screen snipping tool. Built right into the OS.
Except that it fails to capture screens larger than about 2000x1000, it just fails silently - you select your full 2K monitor and the tool just doesn't do anything. Printscreen can capture even multiple 4K monitor and paste all of them into Paint - the snipping tool fails to capture even two 2K monitors which is really annoying at my work.
Huh. I just tried it. A snipping interface came up and let me select a rectangle of the screen. Then, none of the following things happened:
- A message telling me where the picture went.
- The picture showing up on the desktop.
- The picture showing up in "Documents".
- The picture showing up in "Pictures".
But, I was able to recover the screenshot by... opening Paint, and pasting from the clipboard! That's not a solution that will be available on a machine without Paint.
- A message telling me where the picture went.
- The picture showing up on the desktop.
- The picture showing up in "Documents".
- The picture showing up in "Pictures".
But, I was able to recover the screenshot by... opening Paint, and pasting from the clipboard! That's not a solution that will be available on a machine without Paint.
You can also open up MS Word (almost guaranteed to be installed on a locked down corporate Windows machine), and paste the image into a blank document. For bonus points you can then right click the pasted image, and select 'Save As PNG'.
Why save as PNG when you can save directly to DOCX? /s
Customers frequently send me screen shots pasted into a Word document, sigh ...
I frequently get screenshots pasted into PowerPoint "presentations". Couple times I even got a photo of the monitor taken with a cellphone camera.
I don't fault them for this in the least because they did what they knew how to do to accomplish the task and the task was accomplished effectively, I was able to see their screen.
I don't fault them for this in the least because they did what they knew how to do to accomplish the task and the task was accomplished effectively, I was able to see their screen.
Still a bit clunky. I'm also a fan of using Paint for simple screenshots. You can do it without thinking, and with just the keyboard!
1) Printscreen 2) control + v on paint 3) control + s and type in image name
1) Printscreen 2) control + v on paint 3) control + s and type in image name
> opening Paint, and pasting from the clipboard! That's not a solution that will be available on a machine without Paint.
You will have Paint 3D and the first three buttons you see after opening the app are "New", "Open" and "Paste" (with a clipboard icon(!)).
You will have Paint 3D and the first three buttons you see after opening the app are "New", "Open" and "Paste" (with a clipboard icon(!)).
Somewhat off-topic, but I just realized (maybe because I'm a non-native speaker and barely ever use applications which have icons for "copy" and "paste") that "clipboard" in software and physical "clipboards" are two entirely unrelated concepts for me. So much so that I only just remembered that the paste icon represents a physical clipboard rather than simply some abstract brown rectangle with an abstract white rectangle on it.
EDIT: Maybe it doesn't help that in German Windows calls the clipboard the "Zwischenablage" (temporary storage) whereas the German word for "clipboard" would be "Klemmbrett" -- the German version actually seems to use a more abstract concept rather than the same direct metaphor as in English. Weird.
EDIT: Maybe it doesn't help that in German Windows calls the clipboard the "Zwischenablage" (temporary storage) whereas the German word for "clipboard" would be "Klemmbrett" -- the German version actually seems to use a more abstract concept rather than the same direct metaphor as in English. Weird.
It's a conflation of two meanings of "clip": "to cut" or "to hold together". I'd always assumed that the software "clipboard" derived not from the common "board with a clip" but from a "board for clippings", as might have been used in a design firm in the days when cut, copy, and paste were done with an X-acto knife, a Xerox machine, and glue:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paste_up
I haven't been able to find evidence of this alternate meaning for "clipboard", though, as modern use has rendered it un-Googleable. The best I've been able to find is that its use in computing probably started somewhere between Xerox PARC and the Apple Lisa:
http://www.liquidinformation.org/onxeaplaprog.html
I find it fascinating, though, that this word has stuck, propagated essentially by word-of-mouth -- like the contents of the clipboard itself, the word is generally not shown in user interfaces. "Scrapbook", the name of the clipboard management utility in the original Macintosh OS, would have made a lot more sense semantically.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paste_up
I haven't been able to find evidence of this alternate meaning for "clipboard", though, as modern use has rendered it un-Googleable. The best I've been able to find is that its use in computing probably started somewhere between Xerox PARC and the Apple Lisa:
http://www.liquidinformation.org/onxeaplaprog.html
I find it fascinating, though, that this word has stuck, propagated essentially by word-of-mouth -- like the contents of the clipboard itself, the word is generally not shown in user interfaces. "Scrapbook", the name of the clipboard management utility in the original Macintosh OS, would have made a lot more sense semantically.
As an English speaker, the windows clipboard and a physical clipboard are entirely unrelated concepts for me too, much like how "right" (the opposite of left) and "right" (a legal entitlement) are unrelated concepts.
Same situation here ("Zwischenablage"-country, was made familiar with the concept in the non-icon days, learned the shortcuts and never click icons). The icons were always somewhat confusing to me, I have to actively think what they mean if I want to use icon-only buttons.
I believe the now known icons were popularised esp. through MS Office. What I found on the net is that Susan Kare did the more obvious scissor cut-icon for the Mac earlier. Would be interesting to read where those icons originated.
I believe the now known icons were popularised esp. through MS Office. What I found on the net is that Susan Kare did the more obvious scissor cut-icon for the Mac earlier. Would be interesting to read where those icons originated.
I'm sure you probably discovered this by now, but the image is kept in memory until it is "saved" via the Save menu.
The UX could probably do with some improvement showing that the image is not automatically saved to disk, like scrot or OSX's Image Capture shortcuts, though.
The UX could probably do with some improvement showing that the image is not automatically saved to disk, like scrot or OSX's Image Capture shortcuts, though.
> "saved" via the Save menu.
Where is this menu?
Where is this menu?
Save menu? The snipping tool disappears as soon as release the mouse button, there is nothing else you can do with it.
lixquid is talking about the old snipping tool, not the one attached to Win+Shift+S.
I agree that it's really unclear what happens when you use Win+Shift+S to grab the screen. No indication at all that the image is on the clipboard.
There needs to be a Win+Ctrl/Alt+Shift+S that automatically saves to the Screenshots directory or something.
I agree that it's really unclear what happens when you use Win+Shift+S to grab the screen. No indication at all that the image is on the clipboard.
There needs to be a Win+Ctrl/Alt+Shift+S that automatically saves to the Screenshots directory or something.
If you want those things why not use Snip? 90% of my use cases involve pasting a screenshot into an editor, though, so the no nonsense win+shift+s is perfect for this.
There is also the version of the snipping tool with a gui. you can hit the windows key and type snip to find it. I don't know if there is a quick keyboard shortcut to bring up that version. https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13776/windows-use-s...
Nothing happened. Is this only in the creator update? (I have deferred updates turned on, so I may not have it yet.)
Snipping tool doesn't exist on hospital PCs?
Centralised Group Policy Objects (GPOs) on the Windows Domain, can block any EXE that's on the machine, or a customised deployment image of Windows 10 can even be configured to not installed any of the built in applications. So yes, no snipping tool on a deployed installation of Windows 10 is a real scenario.
Also, GPOs can (and do) disable the Windows Store. So moving MSPaint to the Windows Store does not make as available as having it pre-installed.
Also, GPOs can (and do) disable the Windows Store. So moving MSPaint to the Windows Store does not make as available as having it pre-installed.
If no Snipping Tool because of GPO is a real scenario, no Paint because of GPO is a real scenario too
If a machine is blocking built-in applications, why would it have MSPaint available? Or is it an application that cannot be blocked, which would be a security vulnerability?
I spent 10 years doing corporate desktop deployments of Windows. You'd be surprised at the crazy requests from the business regarding what they did and didn't want pre-installed.
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Context menus close when you use the snipping tool.
Hence the Delay option.
Had no idea this existed.
Still, there are times when you have a weird error you need to screenshot, and you know that if you move the mouse or hit anything other than the print screen button, it will go away.
Paint made this scenario very easy to deal with.
Still, there are times when you have a weird error you need to screenshot, and you know that if you move the mouse or hit anything other than the print screen button, it will go away.
Paint made this scenario very easy to deal with.
Thanks. I've always struggled with this and only now realized that Delay-option in Snipping tool.
At the same time they're removing Paint they're bundling Paint 3D which does the same and more.
The cynic in me thinks they did this to try to get people to check out the store. I don't think I've ever even opened the store.
most likely not. It will come pre-installed with windows but the updates will be managed trough the store.
Yes, it'll be a wrapped UWP app.
One more thing pushing me to interface with an online store. One less reason for picking Windows for my "toolbench" computer.
The paranoid in me is expecting there to be a catch to this new paint application. Ads? DLC?
The paranoid in me is expecting there to be a catch to this new paint application. Ads? DLC?
If you don't trust Microsoft and it's Store, then you shouldn't use Windows in the first place.
It's a perfectly good OS with a bunch of junk installed, whether by Microsoft, a OEM, or both. Working around the crap has been the norm for as long as I can remember.
Some of us consider the telemetry and forced updates "junk" that disqualifies it from being a "perfectly good OS" since you cannot uninstall them and need to keep fighting the OS to keep them off.
One can have cynical thoughts about their future plans but still have a certain degree of trust in more important aspects of the OS.
It'll probably be worse in every way, like calc.exe in Windows 10.
Not just me then. I hated Windows 10 Calc so much, that I copied over calc.exe from Windows 7 and made the following registry change:
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\App Paths\CALC.EXE
(Default) C:\<PATH-TO-WINDOWS7-CALC>\calc.exe
Path C:\<PATH-TO-WINDOWS7-CALC>
I've done the same thing with paint.exe from Windows XP. I prefer that version to the one with the ribbon UI.
Had tried to do this before and did not work.
As I'm curious, just tried it again and the Win7 calc just does not want to run.
So wondering why it would work on your end. Do you have an old .net runtime on your machine perchance?
So wondering why it would work on your end. Do you have an old .net runtime on your machine perchance?
Possibly. Or it's an earlier version of calc.exe I'm actually using - I'm not sure.
If you think you can trust me (you can!) - try this one:
http://www.jaruzel.com/files/calc.zip
If you think you can trust me (you can!) - try this one:
http://www.jaruzel.com/files/calc.zip
Thanks. Pretty sure that it is not a Win7 version, your binary is from 2001 and only 100kB.
In that case I'll stick with Microsoft Calculator Plus from 2005. Now if you need a binary of that... then I can post a link for you. :)
Actually here you go: http://www.vimalin.com/download/CalcPlus.zip
The installer in the zip is signed by Microsoft.
Found your version :p Just bumped into my calc archives and did a binary compare with a Windows XP archive I had of it and it matched. So turns out it is from Windows XP and yes that one works.
In that case I'll stick with Microsoft Calculator Plus from 2005. Now if you need a binary of that... then I can post a link for you. :)
Actually here you go: http://www.vimalin.com/download/CalcPlus.zip
The installer in the zip is signed by Microsoft.
Found your version :p Just bumped into my calc archives and did a binary compare with a Windows XP archive I had of it and it matched. So turns out it is from Windows XP and yes that one works.
Wow, XP?! Well, I still like it, and it's still better than the Windows 10 one :)
Agreed, turns out that it was the one I was using myself too. Until I just swapped it out for calculator plus. The only issue I had was that I wasn't able to setup a keyboard shortcut (Ctrl+Alt+C), but just figured that one out.
Turns out that if you create a shortcut via the send To "Desktop (Create shortcut)" that you can then set it up a keyboard shortcut via properties. As long as your shortcut is on the desktop or in the menu then the keyboard shortcut works. Yay.
Turns out that if you create a shortcut via the send To "Desktop (Create shortcut)" that you can then set it up a keyboard shortcut via properties. As long as your shortcut is on the desktop or in the menu then the keyboard shortcut works. Yay.
But then since it was from xp and not win7 and you didn't know that, does that mean that your calc.exe is something you downloaded off some random site on the net trusting that it didn't contain malware?
Nope. I just have a crap memory.
On the other hand, rather than continuing to bundle software almost noone uses, they move it to an accessible place for people who want it. What more do you want from them?
> On the other hand, rather than continuing to bundle software almost noone uses, they move it to an accessible place for people who want it.
You mean like the 20 UWP apps that I can't uninstall because they made everything intertwined on purpose? Don't bother trying to link some random PowerShell/GPO/registry hacks because I know about all of them. It always breaks something (varying from release to release)
> What more do you want from them?
No ads and invasive telemetry
You mean like the 20 UWP apps that I can't uninstall because they made everything intertwined on purpose? Don't bother trying to link some random PowerShell/GPO/registry hacks because I know about all of them. It always breaks something (varying from release to release)
> What more do you want from them?
No ads and invasive telemetry
I was able to uninstall everything I wanted to.
A few examples that you can't normally uninstall are Cortana (" Windows Search "), Camera, Alarms/Clock, Email/Calendar, Movies/TV, Pictures, Photos, 3D, Voice recorder, Groove Music, Maps, Messages, One Note, Paint 3D, People, Sticky Notes, Xbox, Xbox Game Speech.
You can certainly remove some of them manually or using 3rd party solutions but something eventually goes wrong specially after an update. I mean I can remove most of the executables from the Windows folder, my point is that it's going to break something eventually. Removing Cortana and SearchUI used to work before AU, now it just freezes my start menu completely.
You can certainly remove some of them manually or using 3rd party solutions but something eventually goes wrong specially after an update. I mean I can remove most of the executables from the Windows folder, my point is that it's going to break something eventually. Removing Cortana and SearchUI used to work before AU, now it just freezes my start menu completely.
I'd like to completely remove Cortana, or at the very least completely cut it off from any kind of internet access. I got it mostly hidden and voice access disabled, at least.
Oh, come on. Everyone annotates a screenshot for e-mail every once in a while.
i'm guessing there will be a new EULA to accept prior to downloading it from the store.
Why? There isn't for the other apps they have on there.
ok, then i assume it's one EULA for everything in the store, that customers now choose to install themselves and is not part of windows. ie. it is a new product. otherwise, what is the point of moving it?
It's part of a bigger trend that MS is engaged in to move most of their apps to the App Store: Mail, Feedback Hub, Calendar, Maps, etc, are all in the Store. It makes updating one of the apps separate from updating the OS (and Windows Update). This is a net positive move for consumers, I think.
They never said it was going away, they said it was deprecated. The media spun it, either out of ignorance or headline porn/clickbait.
Okay so when I first heard this, I was kind of enraged, because I use paint daily for screenshots, ad-hoc cropping and stuff.
And when I tried Paint3D in the past it was garbage. Someone in this thread said that it is actually easy to crop with it, and I tried again, and yes it is actually a bearable experience, but scaling the image gives a crappy quality, so it is a no-go.
Then I got the Win+Shift+S screen clipping tool, which is awesome, it only gets the clipped screenshot into the clipboard, which is a half-assed solution, but then I remembered I got evernote, and made Win+Shift+D save the clipboard into a new note.
This way I can instantly take a screenshot in an already cropped way, and save it for future use, and Evernote can easily Annotate the image with text, or arrows, which is sufficient.
Awesomeness!
And when I tried Paint3D in the past it was garbage. Someone in this thread said that it is actually easy to crop with it, and I tried again, and yes it is actually a bearable experience, but scaling the image gives a crappy quality, so it is a no-go.
Then I got the Win+Shift+S screen clipping tool, which is awesome, it only gets the clipped screenshot into the clipboard, which is a half-assed solution, but then I remembered I got evernote, and made Win+Shift+D save the clipboard into a new note.
This way I can instantly take a screenshot in an already cropped way, and save it for future use, and Evernote can easily Annotate the image with text, or arrows, which is sufficient.
Awesomeness!
Snipping tool is not UWP. So someday some dev in Microsoft will convert it to UWP and you'll have Snip 3D. And snipping tool will become a download from the store. It's fucking sad because the UWP apps are almost always garbage.
there is also a version of the snipping tool with a gui https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13776/windows-use-s...
The best how to guides I've written have all been MS paint on top of screen-shots. I do it that way because the best how to guides I've seen have been written that way. It's fast and easy.
Not having it installed by default will kill off MS Paint.
just because it's in the store doesn't mean it wont be pre installed :)
An excellent example on how to generate media buzz. You would have to pay a decent amount of money if you wanted to achieve something similar with ads.
There are much better free [web based] alternatives for WordPad, Paint and Notepad these days and I prefer to use those over these obsolete applications. These are not useful applications, we just like them because of nostalgia.
I doubt if Microsoft is removing Paint because of OS base image size. It should be more about source code maintenance and UI consistency. Both WordPad and Paint got ribbon user interface for Windows 7 and calc.exe has been replace by a modern Windows Store app in Windows 10.
Why should Microsoft spend time and resource to keep these applications up to date while majority of users are using better free alternatives?
I doubt if Microsoft is removing Paint because of OS base image size. It should be more about source code maintenance and UI consistency. Both WordPad and Paint got ribbon user interface for Windows 7 and calc.exe has been replace by a modern Windows Store app in Windows 10.
Why should Microsoft spend time and resource to keep these applications up to date while majority of users are using better free alternatives?
In general, Web based apps aren't useful when taking notes or screeenshots trying to figure out/document why/that networking isn't working...
> These are not useful applications, we just like them because of nostalgia.
On the contrary; I have Paint.net and GIMP installed, I've experimented with both of them, and I still don't have a tool as quick and easy for marking up a screenshot as Paint is. At that singular task it is superb.
I create a lot of training material, so marking up screenshots is a significant component of my job. This will make my job harder for no good reason.
On the contrary; I have Paint.net and GIMP installed, I've experimented with both of them, and I still don't have a tool as quick and easy for marking up a screenshot as Paint is. At that singular task it is superb.
I create a lot of training material, so marking up screenshots is a significant component of my job. This will make my job harder for no good reason.
GIMP is not a good alternative for Paint. Have you ever used [https://sketch.io/sketchpad/] ?
Windows Snipping Tool is a very good tool for taking screen shots.
7Zip and VLC are good examples. The community accepted to download and use many community driven projects over Microsoft provided tools.
Windows Snipping Tool is a very good tool for taking screen shots.
7Zip and VLC are good examples. The community accepted to download and use many community driven projects over Microsoft provided tools.
Asking because I'm unclear: While you have to go to the Windows Store for getting the app, it is still local after installation, right? In that case, how does it make your job harder? Installation time will be a trivial fraction of the use time, no?
Microsoft should take those apps and put them into Windows by default. It's a trivial thing for us in the tech community to install these ourselves. However, a significant population remains unaware.
Why should I waste time installing those apps? Or Internet traffic and even some CPU with web based apps?
If i had to download something anyway why would i download MS Paint and not a better alternative? So they are killing it.
Disappointing comments in this thread. Lots of worthless complaining, and scant technical talk on solutions to this barely significant 'problem'.
If you want to keep the original mspaint.exe and don't want to use the Store for some reason, you can literally just copy it from any Windows 10 install media prior to RS3. Or from a running system. It's not difficult.
If you want to keep the original mspaint.exe and don't want to use the Store for some reason, you can literally just copy it from any Windows 10 install media prior to RS3. Or from a running system. It's not difficult.
It has a lot of dependencies actually. No idea which of those also get removed.
I think they're all dependencies shared by many other Windows components, and will probably mostly be the versioned API Sets rather than specifically named DLLs. But if there is anything Paint-specific it could just be copied over too.
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For many it seems Paint is their first experience with Windows, since my first was an Apple II GS, I remember Mouse Paint.
And here I was defending Microsoft in the other thread... This is much worse (for all the reasons people have already listed) than deprecating and eventually removing it which is what the original article implied was happening.
You absolutely need MS Paint on Windows.
For one thing, it provides workarounds for horrible stability and functionality issues with image printing out of the Windows Shell (Windows Explorer).
I think it provides the only way to print an image 1:1 (original scale) without installing third party software. I.e. 600 pixels of a 600 dpi image actually measure one inch. Not all images are photographs that can be scaled; sometimes they are patterns for some real-world object.
How would a Windows user, say, crop an image without MS Paint, using only a vanilla Windows install with no 3rd party anything?
For one thing, it provides workarounds for horrible stability and functionality issues with image printing out of the Windows Shell (Windows Explorer).
I think it provides the only way to print an image 1:1 (original scale) without installing third party software. I.e. 600 pixels of a 600 dpi image actually measure one inch. Not all images are photographs that can be scaled; sometimes they are patterns for some real-world object.
How would a Windows user, say, crop an image without MS Paint, using only a vanilla Windows install with no 3rd party anything?
Using Paint3D, the bundled replacement.
The article really says,
We thought MS Paint was so great, we decided to list all the features that Paint 3D has that are similar to what MS Paint has. And we want to mention that Paint 3D is FREE!
These are the results for searching "MS Paint" on windows.com:
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/search/result.aspx?q=MS+Pain...
We thought MS Paint was so great, we decided to list all the features that Paint 3D has that are similar to what MS Paint has. And we want to mention that Paint 3D is FREE!
These are the results for searching "MS Paint" on windows.com:
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/search/result.aspx?q=MS+Pain...
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Summary:
We are taking paint away from you and allowing you to come and get it through our funnel, erm... store.
We are taking paint away from you and allowing you to come and get it through our funnel, erm... store.
If they want to cut the bloat they can better look at fixing their installers. I don't need a copy of every installer ever used in my windows and program directories. Those folders are almost always the largest folders on my PC.
I quite like the way Microsoft is listening back to users, welcome back Microsoft!
One reason for this is surely Microsoft trying to get people to use their store.
Im beginning to think that Microsoft's new strategy is to optimistically break all their products by adding the store front and telemetry to them. Neither of which are needed or wanted in the majority of cases.
I miss EDLIN.COM
Get it from the Windows Store! It needs camera and microphone access though. And it isn't actually a line editor, but it does install a browser helper and toolbar in IE.
I'd bet this was the plan all along. People are talking about Paint 3D.
If they really want to make their core / long time users happy they would release the "Old MSPaint" from windows 95 as a stand alone app
Well, I'll just install Paint.NET then.
Yay, at minimum 7 Mb freed up going forward. People will remember this joyous occasion, would rate 10/10 again.
they should have found better way to go viral. I am not motivated to use paint3D. people using MSpaint are also be able to use MSexcel to paint.
It's been used not because microsoft produced minimal tool made huge impact! actually the other way around!
253 comments here as of the time when i am seeing the post... really folks? :)
I'm sensing a PR ploy on the level of Coke and New Coke shenanigans.
Nice! Can't remove a classic and glad they listened to the people
Where's the link? Specifically, how come this blog page doesn't link to the app in the app store?
Anyway, I agree that MS Paint needs to be built-in to Windows. It's like Notepad for images. Something that's reliable that we know that works and how to use.
Anyway, I agree that MS Paint needs to be built-in to Windows. It's like Notepad for images. Something that's reliable that we know that works and how to use.
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Will users' revolt stop this advancement? I'm serious.
but now it's probably going to be bundled up with all kinds of crap, such as ms pain(t) 3d
You boobs, just use Photoshop.
well now I can always have a place to paste print screen :)
So .. what? It always struck my as a toy program (kind of like how Notepad seems like a toy text editor).
When was the last time you could get anything done with MS Paint?
When was the last time you could get anything done with MS Paint?
Uh, every single time I wanted to quickly circle something in a screenshot? Every time I wanted to quickly crop an image? Every time I wanted to draw a diagram?
MS Paint has been there for me through thick and thin.
Yeah, I'm not about to become a graphic artist with it, but what does that have to do with anything?
And what's more, I don't know what you're on about with Notepad. I've taken more notes in Notepad than any other program, no contest. "Toy"? Is a butterknife a toy because all it does is spread butter?
MS Paint has been there for me through thick and thin.
Yeah, I'm not about to become a graphic artist with it, but what does that have to do with anything?
And what's more, I don't know what you're on about with Notepad. I've taken more notes in Notepad than any other program, no contest. "Toy"? Is a butterknife a toy because all it does is spread butter?
Snipping Tool is way better at any screenshot-related task.
And, er, you draw diagrams in Paint? Where you cannot even edit a damn text-box? [^1] Really?
[^1]: https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10...
And, er, you draw diagrams in Paint? Where you cannot even edit a damn text-box? [^1] Really?
[^1]: https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10...
Indeed. Why isn't Microsoft thinking of its enterprise Paint users?
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I think most people have at least once used MS paint. If that's not an indication that it's a useful program, then I don't know what is.
Microsoft doesn't have any taste. No, it's should not be on the store. Tasteless company..
Your comment is vague and unconstructive. I'd ask you to substantiate your claim, but its not even clear what that claim is.
If you look at his submissions, then you can see he appears to be an Anti-MS Troll / Fanboy. So maybe this comment is just a troll attempt.
With GPU passthrough becoming quite usable I don't think I'll ever put windows on bare metal again. And in my VMs I'll just be using evaluation copies.
I left MS office for open/libreoffice a few years ago and haven't looked back. The idea of having a store built into my operating system makes me ill, I already have enough of that with android. I can't really imagine giving MS any more money (except possibly when buying a laptop), and I'm not sure what they can do to change it.
I left MS office for open/libreoffice a few years ago and haven't looked back. The idea of having a store built into my operating system makes me ill, I already have enough of that with android. I can't really imagine giving MS any more money (except possibly when buying a laptop), and I'm not sure what they can do to change it.