Amazon's new refunds policy will 'crush' small businesses, outraged sellers say(cnbc.com)
cnbc.com
Amazon's new refunds policy will 'crush' small businesses, outraged sellers say
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/02/amazons-new-refunds-policy-will-crush-small-businesses-say-sellers.html
195 コメント
I'm hoping this helps with console resellers. Hard to sell a console 100+ dollars over when someone can just return it when more become available.
The impact varies greatly by item. Things that are big and expensive to ship. Items that require some skill or patience to use. Items that can't be sold once again once returned. Items that people might use once, so it becomes a free rental.
it's a good thing in the short term, but it also feels like an exercise of monopoly power by Amazon, which is going to be bad for consumers in the long run. can a business afford not to be listed on Amazon? in the long term, does Amazon have any interest in listing third parties?
at some point I think the answer to both of these questions will be no, and then I'd expect the good customer experience to erode pretty quickly as Amazon realizes they can squeeze as much profit as they want out of customers and retailers.
at some point I think the answer to both of these questions will be no, and then I'd expect the good customer experience to erode pretty quickly as Amazon realizes they can squeeze as much profit as they want out of customers and retailers.
I would expect that if Amazon stopped listing third party stuff, other sites would pick up the slack there, perhaps sites like Etsy?
Ebay.
Another good example, but I've definitely heard sellers complaining about ebay as well.
One of my friends listed 3 pocket knives on eBay. After waiting a week for the auctions to close, 2 out of the 3 buyers said "Cancel my order, I'm not interested." So his auctions were totally screwed over, and he had to wait another week by setting up another auction. One of those re-posts had the EXACT same thing happen. Turns out that eBay won't do anything unless a user has failed to pay for 3 transactions within something like 90 days. That means you can go bid on an item once a month, not pay the seller, and have no repercussions. Because the transaction never completes, you can't leave feedback on the buyer.
Amazon is interested in listing 3rd parties: it's useful to have someone else take all of the product risk , while you offer the ideal store for your customers and do all the more low-risk parts like logistics, managing a site, selling low-risk products directly while someone else supply excess demand.
Frankly I don't see the benefit in this program for Amazon. 3rd party sellers often charge less, meaning less revenue for Amazon. The highly variable customer service also degrades Amazon's brand. Finally, Amazon still has to front the cost of any return/refund from a 3rd party seller, so there is still risk.
Monopoly power? Please. They're far from the only online retailer; it's not as if online retail has some huge capital barrier to entry. You don't like Amazon? List on ebay, or etsy, or craigslist, or kijiji, or... Or set up your own store and handle payments through Paypal or if you don't like Paypal then Stripe or Moneybookers or...
ecommerce is too large a field, with too easy entry, to be a monopoly.
ecommerce is too large a field, with too easy entry, to be a monopoly.
tl;dr; Only Amazon really benefits, buyers will eat the cost and their experience might be worse. Smaller sellers will suffer the most.
Mostly it let's Amazon hire fewer people in support department - they don't have to deal with the occasional refused return ("I dropped this glass item on tiles and it broke into a million pieces, I'd like my money back. Do I have to ship it back to you?" - paraphrased actual return request)
The only other plus side I see is that customers can ship the return immediately. Not much of a difference as sellers are now required to respond within 12h (7 days a week, including holidays) and if they fail to more than 5-10% of the time (I don't remember what the exact target is now) they risk having their Amazon account closed.
From consumer point of view it's not a good thing:
- it offers no new customer protection. sellers are already required to accept those returns (unless customer shoots themselves in the foot - see example above) and provide a prepaid shipping label (in most cases). Amazon enforces that
- it removes the option seller has to accept a return that is out of policy
- it increases the number of unnecessary returns (and having to reorder). Often a one sentence explanation/hint is enough
- it doesn't make the cost of shipping to customer refundable, unless the customer lies about the reason why he's returning the item. Right now those false claims account for at least 3/4 of all returns (source: my wife runs a business that does part of the sales through Amazon, other sellers we know having the same problem)
- it generates extra costs for sellers. that cost is ultimately paid by buyers
From seller point of view it's not a good thing:
- makes fraud easier. For a larger seller that's simply a cost of doing business that will be shifted to buyers anyway. For a small seller it can be end of business if for example a Chinese company that copied their product decides to make a couple dozen fraudulent returns (not that uncommon)
- removes an option to use your own cheaper shipping label - even sending just a few hundred package a month gets you really nice discounts
- removes an option to use your own shipping label that makes the return safer (like extra insurance or using a courier). ANYTHING customer ships back makes Amazon consider it a valid return - even if it's damaged, something completely different, etc the seller will have to provide a refund. It's next to impossible to stop that refund
- removes an option to receive feedback from the customer making the return to improve in the future
Mostly it let's Amazon hire fewer people in support department - they don't have to deal with the occasional refused return ("I dropped this glass item on tiles and it broke into a million pieces, I'd like my money back. Do I have to ship it back to you?" - paraphrased actual return request)
The only other plus side I see is that customers can ship the return immediately. Not much of a difference as sellers are now required to respond within 12h (7 days a week, including holidays) and if they fail to more than 5-10% of the time (I don't remember what the exact target is now) they risk having their Amazon account closed.
From consumer point of view it's not a good thing:
- it offers no new customer protection. sellers are already required to accept those returns (unless customer shoots themselves in the foot - see example above) and provide a prepaid shipping label (in most cases). Amazon enforces that
- it removes the option seller has to accept a return that is out of policy
- it increases the number of unnecessary returns (and having to reorder). Often a one sentence explanation/hint is enough
- it doesn't make the cost of shipping to customer refundable, unless the customer lies about the reason why he's returning the item. Right now those false claims account for at least 3/4 of all returns (source: my wife runs a business that does part of the sales through Amazon, other sellers we know having the same problem)
- it generates extra costs for sellers. that cost is ultimately paid by buyers
From seller point of view it's not a good thing:
- makes fraud easier. For a larger seller that's simply a cost of doing business that will be shifted to buyers anyway. For a small seller it can be end of business if for example a Chinese company that copied their product decides to make a couple dozen fraudulent returns (not that uncommon)
- removes an option to use your own cheaper shipping label - even sending just a few hundred package a month gets you really nice discounts
- removes an option to use your own shipping label that makes the return safer (like extra insurance or using a courier). ANYTHING customer ships back makes Amazon consider it a valid return - even if it's damaged, something completely different, etc the seller will have to provide a refund. It's next to impossible to stop that refund
- removes an option to receive feedback from the customer making the return to improve in the future
I imagine there's a balance to be had somewhere, but offering superior customer assurance also means an increased willingness to buy from smaller vendors.
We should ultimately facilitate a marketplace where both business and customer have confidence in their transactions, rather than lingering suspicions that they don't understand the deal and will have to eat the cost.
We should ultimately facilitate a marketplace where both business and customer have confidence in their transactions, rather than lingering suspicions that they don't understand the deal and will have to eat the cost.
I do understand where sellers are coming from, but as a buyer, this would be a better relationship between them and myself. As is, I typically always prefer/only buy things sold or fulfilled by Amazon, because of this reason. This move would give me more confidence to begin more often considering third party vendors.
Timely Onion article:
"My Advice To Anyone Starting A Business Is To Remember That Someday I Will Crush You"
http://www.theonion.com/blogpost/my-advice-anyone-starting-b...
But in all seriousness... as a consumer, I shop on Amazon to not think twice about having to deal much with returns, shipping, etc.
I understand that this is probably painful for a lot of people who built up businesses on the Amazon platform, but this is something that also seems pretty obvious.
"My Advice To Anyone Starting A Business Is To Remember That Someday I Will Crush You"
http://www.theonion.com/blogpost/my-advice-anyone-starting-b...
But in all seriousness... as a consumer, I shop on Amazon to not think twice about having to deal much with returns, shipping, etc.
I understand that this is probably painful for a lot of people who built up businesses on the Amazon platform, but this is something that also seems pretty obvious.
Phew thank god. Next they need a robust anti fraud department in their marketplace.
> Additionally, Amazon said that it's introducing "returnless refunds," a feature that the company said is "highly requested by sellers." The change enables sellers to offer a refund without taking back an item that may be expensive to ship and hard to resell.
Wow, I can literally just say "I don't like it", and there's a chance they'll literally just give me my money back, but let me keep it?
Wow, I can literally just say "I don't like it", and there's a chance they'll literally just give me my money back, but let me keep it?
Amazon customer support has told me to discard items that've been defective, rather than ship them back, on multiple occasions. There's probably an internal policy about how many of these can be performed by a customer, but it's extremely convenient when they let you.
I had a $180 car battery that was supposed to fit according to their site but didn't. They refunded me and said they couldn't have me ship it back (I'm assuming because it's a hazardous material), so a friend wound up with a free battery. That was pretty surprising to me.
The cost of the item vs shipping cost matters too. I've had it done a bunch of times for less than $10 items.
I had it happen for a MacBook charger I bought on Amazon which turned out to be an obvious counterfeit.
I was under the impression that since it's illegal to knowingly send counterfeit goods through the postal service[1] they can't accept returns of counterfeit goods.[2]
[1] I don't know about FedEx or UPS but probably against their TOS.
[2] This is also eBay's policy as well - http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/money-back-guarantee.htm...
>If a buyer suspects that an item is counterfeit, and there are strong indicators that the item is counterfeit, we don't require the buyer to return the item to the seller. The buyer agrees to cooperate with us to ensure the proper disposal of the item. In such instances, we refund the buyer for the full cost of the item and original shipping, and the seller reimburses us for the refund. The buyer may not sell the item on eBay or elsewhere.
[1] I don't know about FedEx or UPS but probably against their TOS.
[2] This is also eBay's policy as well - http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/money-back-guarantee.htm...
>If a buyer suspects that an item is counterfeit, and there are strong indicators that the item is counterfeit, we don't require the buyer to return the item to the seller. The buyer agrees to cooperate with us to ensure the proper disposal of the item. In such instances, we refund the buyer for the full cost of the item and original shipping, and the seller reimburses us for the refund. The buyer may not sell the item on eBay or elsewhere.
This is valuable also where there are places of clear mis-fit in the system such as when I received spoiled food through Amazon. The bag was torn open and product spoiled, coating everything, and I was requested to mail it back before I could receive a refund.
There was no alternative course, it felt maddening, especially considering I had submitted photos and knew there was no chance for their resale.
There was no alternative course, it felt maddening, especially considering I had submitted photos and knew there was no chance for their resale.
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On the other hand, recently I received a different color item than what I ordered. Since I didn't want to go through the hassle of returning, I asked them to refund the price difference. They refused to do that and asked me to return. The refund would have been cheaper than returning and shipping a new one.
The two colors were different prices?
I have commonly seen this among products where there is a color choice. Here's a specific example: https://www.amazon.com/Walkers-Game-Ear-Razor-Electronic/dp/...
Very common
Search ps4 dual shock controller on walmart.com.
Beats headphones
Apparel.
Etc
Search ps4 dual shock controller on walmart.com.
Beats headphones
Apparel.
Etc
This is often the case with fashion and/or sports items, the more popular colour combinations costing more.
Running shoes for instance: when I was last buying a pair of trail trainers the brightly coloured version of the shoe I currently prefer was being offered considerably cheaper than the all-black-except-high-vis-strips version. This was from the same sellers too, it wasn't due to the listing offering items from multiple outlets as is sometimes the case.
I would have preferred the darker version but I'm perfectly happy not to care about colour to save a bit of cash to spend on something else, but if I had paid the extra, as someone buying a fashion item to match an overall look might well do, and not got that version anyway I'd be expecting a cost-free replacement.
Running shoes for instance: when I was last buying a pair of trail trainers the brightly coloured version of the shoe I currently prefer was being offered considerably cheaper than the all-black-except-high-vis-strips version. This was from the same sellers too, it wasn't due to the listing offering items from multiple outlets as is sometimes the case.
I would have preferred the darker version but I'm perfectly happy not to care about colour to save a bit of cash to spend on something else, but if I had paid the extra, as someone buying a fashion item to match an overall look might well do, and not got that version anyway I'd be expecting a cost-free replacement.
Can you give examples of what you mean by a defective product?
Do you mean the legal definition[1], more or less as in "unsafe"? Because if so, the reason they are likely telling you to discard defective product is so it can't be used as evidence in a liability case in the instance an unsafe product has caused any harm.
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_defect
Do you mean the legal definition[1], more or less as in "unsafe"? Because if so, the reason they are likely telling you to discard defective product is so it can't be used as evidence in a liability case in the instance an unsafe product has caused any harm.
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_defect
"A product defect is any characteristic of a product which hinders its usability for the purpose for which it was designed and manufactured."
This does not imply "unsafe".
This does not imply "unsafe".
I don't think you read the second sentence defining the legal definition:
>Product defects arise most prominently in legal contexts, where the term is applied to "anything that renders the product not reasonably safe"
>Product defects arise most prominently in legal contexts, where the term is applied to "anything that renders the product not reasonably safe"
Wouldn't having the customer ship it back before you give them a refund decrease the chance that they'll keep it and use it against you?
No if you ship a defective product back to Amazon, one that has caused injury, and they got rid of it and you sued, their act could and would likely be considered * spoilation of evidence*. As a result Amazon could be sanctioned by a court and have the burden of evidence shift against them (i.e. no longer do the plaintiffs/you have to prove the product was defective, now the defense would have to prove the product wasn't defective).
You can already do that on some things sold by amazon. Not that I've tried to but I've had more cases of amazon just telling me to keep things, especially if they took too long to deliver.
Anecdotally, they do it for stuff like pillows already, especially cheap ones - it's hard to resell, so they'll eat the cost.
I’ve had it happen when I ordered a CAT6 cable I ended up not needing. I tried to return it and they never send a shipping label. I called support and they said to keep it. This was ~2 years ago and an easy item to resell.
I don't want a used network cable... Someone else's bits have been all through that. Gross.
Probably some kind of reputation system prevents this from happening all the time.
Tuft and Needle lets you donate the mattress to a local shelter and get your money back.
Tuft and Needle lets you donate the mattress to a local shelter and get your money back.
I mean, that's how digital refunds work, for the stores that support them. It's not like they need you to reupload the game code you downloaded from their server.
But you can turn that game license off. You can't turn off a couch.
For a warranty return, once I had to send a picture of the cut power cable.
Basically, evidence it was destroyed was sufficient.
Basically, evidence it was destroyed was sufficient.
Sure, this is the only possible remedy for some things.
For example, Amazon delivered an item of mine to the wrong address. They refunded me even though I didn't return the item.
For example, Amazon delivered an item of mine to the wrong address. They refunded me even though I didn't return the item.
How many times can you do that before someone flags your account up for review of some sort?
It's probably not a discrete number or even heuristic (like number of years you've been in good standing). Rather it's probably another part of their machine learning backend that tracks trends and user behavior as a whole.
But as a guess, if you're a new account, maybe 2 or 3 times. For every year you've been a member, probably 1.5 times that number per year up to some max (let's say, 7).
But as a guess, if you're a new account, maybe 2 or 3 times. For every year you've been a member, probably 1.5 times that number per year up to some max (let's say, 7).
I returned three smartphones over the course of a few months, because each had some hardware failure. I kept the fourth one. Amazon sent an email asking for details. I guess that behavior flagged me somehow.
There's likely a bunch of factors that go into it. Might even be a score that is updated based on your purchase, return history, length of having a prime membership, amount spent on amazon etc.
I went through a period where I was building out an A/V studio where I was returning stuff sometimes twice a week. Never heard a complaint, but I got nervous so I actually reached out to their customer service--"hey, I'm building out this studio, I'm getting a lot of stuff that doesn't fit my needs/doesn't fit what the box says, I don't want to get flagged", the rep put a note in my file, never heard a peep.
Items shipped by sellers in China often have such asymmetric shipping costs that the cost of returning them to China might be more than the entire item is worth.
I've had this happen multiple times. I have, on a few occasions, received defective products, or requested to return something I didn't want, and Amazon simply refunded me or shipped me a replacement without asking any follow-up questions.
I suspect Amazon's decision process, when you request a refund or return, may have something to do with your purchase history, and also the return and defect rate of the product in question.
I suspect Amazon's decision process, when you request a refund or return, may have something to do with your purchase history, and also the return and defect rate of the product in question.
I already had a small business do this for me on Amazon voluntarily. They refunded my small purchase price and asked me to donate the item. I felt so guilty I wouldn't have even asked for a refund if I had known. You bet I did give the item away.
> I felt so guilty...
I've had that same feeling, and I sort of cynically wonder if that's not the point. It is difficult to have ire for a seller when you feel like you've just taken advantage of them.
I ordered a 3-pack of baking mix, one of which was damaged in shipping. They couldn't accept the damaged material and insisted on shipping out a new 3-pack. I got five packs for the price of 3.
That's cool, I guess, but didn't I just get rewarded for the shipper's mistake? That doesn't feel right.
I've had that same feeling, and I sort of cynically wonder if that's not the point. It is difficult to have ire for a seller when you feel like you've just taken advantage of them.
I ordered a 3-pack of baking mix, one of which was damaged in shipping. They couldn't accept the damaged material and insisted on shipping out a new 3-pack. I got five packs for the price of 3.
That's cool, I guess, but didn't I just get rewarded for the shipper's mistake? That doesn't feel right.
Many sellers will, yes, if it's cheaper then accepting the return, especially if a return is not sellable or the item requires special handling (hazardous materials, weight) Amazon pretty much forces sellers to accept returns for most reasons, from what I understand.
Some examples from my life:
I've bought a book from eBay that was advertised as the wrong edition. When I complained (I wanted a specific edition and I made sure the listing was for the edition I wanted) the seller told me to just donate the book and gave me my money back. It was a cheap used book, it would probably have cost more to ship it back than the seller would have gotten reselling it.
I ordered cat litter from jet.com. Cat litter was crushed and broke open during shipping and spilled everywhere. I took a picture and asked for my money back. They didn't ask me to ship the litter back even though about 60-70% of the litter was usable (and I used it). It would have been a mess to ship back litter like that plus expenses.
Edit: just thought of a third example. My parents ordered an armoire from Wayfair that must have been dropped badly in shipping, the side was extremely bowed out. The thing was like 5 feet tall and really heavy, it was solid oak. They just shipped them a new one because a return of such a big item would have been totally infeasible without sending a truck or special courier service. Some rando on Craigslist was really happy to come pick it up so he could fix it.
Some examples from my life:
I've bought a book from eBay that was advertised as the wrong edition. When I complained (I wanted a specific edition and I made sure the listing was for the edition I wanted) the seller told me to just donate the book and gave me my money back. It was a cheap used book, it would probably have cost more to ship it back than the seller would have gotten reselling it.
I ordered cat litter from jet.com. Cat litter was crushed and broke open during shipping and spilled everywhere. I took a picture and asked for my money back. They didn't ask me to ship the litter back even though about 60-70% of the litter was usable (and I used it). It would have been a mess to ship back litter like that plus expenses.
Edit: just thought of a third example. My parents ordered an armoire from Wayfair that must have been dropped badly in shipping, the side was extremely bowed out. The thing was like 5 feet tall and really heavy, it was solid oak. They just shipped them a new one because a return of such a big item would have been totally infeasible without sending a truck or special courier service. Some rando on Craigslist was really happy to come pick it up so he could fix it.
[deleted]
Additional data points:
I've had this happen on a defective basketball backboard (and adjustable armature) that I purchased, and on a car battery that wasn't defective, but was no longer needed because the car it was intended to go into when I ordered it was destroyed in a fire before the battery arrived.
In the first case I expect it was the size/price to ship it back. In the second it may be because of postal regulations but I'm not positive (they shipped it to me without a problem, but perhaps they don't want to risk return shipment on an item that may or may not be defective so they have a blanket policy).
Both cases required me to contact Amazon directly because the items were not listed in the "return this" section of their respective orders.
I've had this happen on a defective basketball backboard (and adjustable armature) that I purchased, and on a car battery that wasn't defective, but was no longer needed because the car it was intended to go into when I ordered it was destroyed in a fire before the battery arrived.
In the first case I expect it was the size/price to ship it back. In the second it may be because of postal regulations but I'm not positive (they shipped it to me without a problem, but perhaps they don't want to risk return shipment on an item that may or may not be defective so they have a blanket policy).
Both cases required me to contact Amazon directly because the items were not listed in the "return this" section of their respective orders.
I think it's opt-in for the seller. Either they pay for return shipping, or let the customer keep it.
I've sold a product on Amazon before and had it warehoused and fulfilled by Amazon. Part of the problem with accepting returns is that you can't personally vet it for quality and correctness and when Amazon ships back out a returned item that the first buyer messed with, it would then have a high probability of getting returned again and/or result in negative feedback or a profit-destroying consumption of time trying to make the second buyer happy. It was then cheaper and easier to just have Amazon destroy all returned items, which is what I did.
Part of me says that the person receiving a refund has no right to the item anymore and should return it on principle, but other side of me realizes it's just a waste of shipping and handling resources when I was having the item trashed anyways. As long as Amazon is actively trying to prevent fraud, I'm not really concerned about this policy.
Part of me says that the person receiving a refund has no right to the item anymore and should return it on principle, but other side of me realizes it's just a waste of shipping and handling resources when I was having the item trashed anyways. As long as Amazon is actively trying to prevent fraud, I'm not really concerned about this policy.
That actually just happened to me! I got a bracelet I was very unhappy with. I hit the return button and it said I don't have to send them anything back. It was kind of crazy!
More often, if a product is obviously defective, or the wrong item was shipped, they may say just keep it (or throw it away) and send a replacement or refund.
I've had this happen with multiple companies. (Wrong t-shirt, warranty replacements on some items, credit card extended warranties, a couple of ebay sellers where the item was defective, etc.)
Definitely something I wouldn't abuse, and I hope others don't abuse, because it increases the efficiency of the system - both by reducing impediments to buying things and by reducing overall cost when things go wrong.
I've had this happen with multiple companies. (Wrong t-shirt, warranty replacements on some items, credit card extended warranties, a couple of ebay sellers where the item was defective, etc.)
Definitely something I wouldn't abuse, and I hope others don't abuse, because it increases the efficiency of the system - both by reducing impediments to buying things and by reducing overall cost when things go wrong.
Wayfair has done this. Sent them pictures of a (fairly pricey) door handle/deadbolt set that had scratches on it. They said to just keep it and do whatever with it, they'll mail out another one. Super convenient, and now the door from my garage has a nice handleset with just a few small scratches.
I recently had this experience. I ordered a pack 5 toyota oil filters for my vehicle. When the box arrived, I was shocked that where was only 1 filter in it.
I contacted amazon customer service and, at first they wanted me to ship the one filter back, so I would receive a full refund. I told them that I'd like the other 4 shipped to me, and that I need to keep the 1 filter as I was planning on doing an oil change that day. BTW, 1 filter costs like $5, so the cost of shipping it back would have outweighed the benefit.
They refunded me and told me I don't have to return the filter.
There are a number of items whose quantity is listed in the title/description rather than the item quantity when you add it to your cart. I think this causes confusion at their warehouses, and the pickers/packers are messing up. I had the same issue happen with a set of 2 pillows, only 1 arrived in the box... amazon shipped me 2 more free of charge.
Their customer service has been spot on. Considering I spend probably a few grand a year buying stuff from amazon, I'd expect no less from their customer service.
I contacted amazon customer service and, at first they wanted me to ship the one filter back, so I would receive a full refund. I told them that I'd like the other 4 shipped to me, and that I need to keep the 1 filter as I was planning on doing an oil change that day. BTW, 1 filter costs like $5, so the cost of shipping it back would have outweighed the benefit.
They refunded me and told me I don't have to return the filter.
There are a number of items whose quantity is listed in the title/description rather than the item quantity when you add it to your cart. I think this causes confusion at their warehouses, and the pickers/packers are messing up. I had the same issue happen with a set of 2 pillows, only 1 arrived in the box... amazon shipped me 2 more free of charge.
Their customer service has been spot on. Considering I spend probably a few grand a year buying stuff from amazon, I'd expect no less from their customer service.
I got a pair of headphones from an Amazon seller, that stopped working after a week. The seller said they'd send me a new pair after I download a PDF from their website, that had a stencil of wired headphones cut in 3 parts, cut my own headphones into 3 parts and align them on the stencil, take a photo of that thing with my name attached, and send them the jpg. Not kidding.
The good news: I still have the replacement pair a year down the line, and they work well.
The good news: I still have the replacement pair a year down the line, and they work well.
I would imagine they'll require some basic proof. There are plenty of things it just doesn't make sense to ship back because they can't resell them - they'll just dispose of them like you do. It isn't flawless (neither is the current system - you can always damage the product and claim it was like that when you opened the box) - but it just makes sense sometimes.
I have done exactly that on a faulty ipad to hdmi cable (though not through amazon), they just send me a new one. A good thing they did too, I was kinda pissed at them and might not have brought from them in the future.
It happened to me about 6 years ago with a $650 camera I I bought from Amazon Marketplace. There wasn’t anything wrong with it, something was missing from the box.
So I called Amazon and explained and they refunded the money before I knew what was happening. I said ok thanks, what should I do with the camera? She said you can throw it in the trash.
Of course since they made me a customer for life They’ve done quite well from me.
So I called Amazon and explained and they refunded the money before I knew what was happening. I said ok thanks, what should I do with the camera? She said you can throw it in the trash.
Of course since they made me a customer for life They’ve done quite well from me.
> But increasingly, those upgrades come at the expense of sellers, who often build their businesses on Amazon and have few other places to generate revenue.
That's a huge risk that's been known from the beginning, though. I feel for these sellers, but building a business that's 100% dependent on a 3rd party (especially one like Amazon that you're also in competition with to some extent) seems like a poor situation to place yourself in.
That's a huge risk that's been known from the beginning, though. I feel for these sellers, but building a business that's 100% dependent on a 3rd party (especially one like Amazon that you're also in competition with to some extent) seems like a poor situation to place yourself in.
I am perennially amazed at the ire of sellers who build businesses on someone else's platform, and then complain when the purveyor of said platform changes the rules. If you want to get to determine the rules of the game, you have to build your own playing field.
I don't think that's a fair viewpoint, it's not realistic for most businesses to create international commerce powerhouses to sell their bespoke goods. Complaining is the only realistic leverage they have in this game.
When you get as big as Amazon it's reasonable to expect some concessions to the people who use your platform, just like if you get as big as GM your workers will want to unionize.
When you get as big as Amazon it's reasonable to expect some concessions to the people who use your platform, just like if you get as big as GM your workers will want to unionize.
So they should create an "Amazon Sellers Association" or something like that?
Well, they can go to jet.com instead. It's not like Amazon is without competition.
>If you want to get to determine the rules of the game, you have to build your own playing field.
Amazon is basically a monopoly, I'd like to know how you imagine a small business competing against them. And why should a small shoe/fidget-spinner/alibaba-reselling business need to build their own shopping website anyways? "Platforms" should be free.
Amazon is basically a monopoly, I'd like to know how you imagine a small business competing against them. And why should a small shoe/fidget-spinner/alibaba-reselling business need to build their own shopping website anyways? "Platforms" should be free.
How are they a monopoly exactly? I can google "<Product name> for sale" easily enough.
Look at it from the other direction. Little moves by them, like what's described in the article, can kill off all sorts of small businesses. How else would that be possible without extreme amounts of market power?
It's a bit of a 2 way street. One of the big reason's for Amazon's dominance is carrying virtually every item out there which makes it a great place to go look. That's made possible because all of these other people have built businesses around the platform.
This really isn't all that different than what Walmart has a history of doing. Become your biggest source of business, then force you to lower the price or lose it all.
This really isn't all that different than what Walmart has a history of doing. Become your biggest source of business, then force you to lower the price or lose it all.
This is unfair, you're always "building businesses on someone else's platform," as you're always dealing with outsiders.
If your supplier raises prices you can become unprofitable, if your distributor changes policies you can become unprofitable, if FedEx raises prices you can become unprofitable, if price of gas goes up you can become unprofitable, if your rent goes up you can become unprofitable, if taxes go up you can become unprofitable, if laws change you can become unprofitable, even if a local employer closes you can become unprofitable, if a competitor comes in and undercuts you you can become unprofitable, etc.
It's not fair to criticize a small business for not building up, from scratch, the infrastructure and customer base that Amazon has. Especially when many of these small businesses wouldn't even be feasible without Amazon's infrastructure.
If your supplier raises prices you can become unprofitable, if your distributor changes policies you can become unprofitable, if FedEx raises prices you can become unprofitable, if price of gas goes up you can become unprofitable, if your rent goes up you can become unprofitable, if taxes go up you can become unprofitable, if laws change you can become unprofitable, even if a local employer closes you can become unprofitable, if a competitor comes in and undercuts you you can become unprofitable, etc.
It's not fair to criticize a small business for not building up, from scratch, the infrastructure and customer base that Amazon has. Especially when many of these small businesses wouldn't even be feasible without Amazon's infrastructure.
Yes, this is very consumer friendly on the surface. But remember that Amazon operates is retail arm with little or no profit margin, even with the benefits of scale keeping their costs low. Small businesses don't have the same benefits of scale, and will be forced to close down when their revenue drops below their costs as a result of too many returns.
And that is ultimately bad for consumers.
And that is ultimately bad for consumers.
Amazon doesn't need independent sellers anymore.
I'd say that most of their listings are dominated by independent sellers; you can't even tell if Amazon is offering an object without digging into the "see more sellers".
For example, find a coffee grinder sold by Amazon (note, not Amazon Warehouse Deals)
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_hi_eb?rh=n%3A1055398%2Cn%3A2...
For example, find a coffee grinder sold by Amazon (note, not Amazon Warehouse Deals)
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_hi_eb?rh=n%3A1055398%2Cn%3A2...
Amazon keeps indy sellers around so they can use shopping data to identify trends on high-margin, easy-to-produce good that can be readily copied and offered by Amazon for much cheaper.
IMHO.
IMHO.
Plus if you sell on Amazon I bet you buy more too.
Third party sellers are a a cash cow - they take all the risks and Amazon is just a middleman. They make up half of Amazon's sales. Amazon's ultimate game plan may be to drop their retail business altogether and become just a logistics company.
I guess they use it as a win-win if you want a little bit more cost but fast shipping you use them and they win. if you want slower shipping you use a third party and they collect most of the profit and they win.
I'd say the wave of scammers operating on Amazon is worse for consumers.
I'm of two minds - if legitimate sellers are pushed out, the signal to noise ratio will probably get worse, but the easier returns policy will help those screwed over by scammers...
Maybe. Although I'd think a consumer friendly policy would tend to drive scammers out, but the lure of Amazon may be too big for them to resist.
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It is outrageous, but it's not new. About 2 years ago I sold an item through the marketplace, shipped through Amazon, and at +30 days the buyer requested to return (my return policy stated no returns after 30 days). I ignored him, and then he filed a "Did not receive item" complaint with Amazon. They refunded him $250 and billed me $250. I fought it, using email, multiple phone calls (a trial in and of itself), showing them their own records of shipment, etc, the fact that the buyer had initially tried to return the item (and had sent messages to me saying he wanted to return it - implying that he had it).
I haven't used Amazon to buy or sell anything since. And you know what? It's great! I use Discogs (and my local music store!) for music, Alibris (alas, no good local book stores remain) for books, Newegg for electronics. I haven't yet found a great source for ordinary household goods online, but the local Home Depot/Costco/Target have me covered. When they get drone delivery and a good online experience, I'll be stoked.
In truth, I don't think Amazon can really compete within these niches. They get away with it because of an incredible focus on reducing transaction friction, and because they are usually "good enough" in so many categories. My worry is that Amazon will expand their monopoly, and then really start abusing it's customers, and they won't have anywhere to go.
I guess I'm just saying don't wait for them to try and screw you out of $250, give up Amazon for a month, and see how it goes! I think you'll be surprised.
I haven't used Amazon to buy or sell anything since. And you know what? It's great! I use Discogs (and my local music store!) for music, Alibris (alas, no good local book stores remain) for books, Newegg for electronics. I haven't yet found a great source for ordinary household goods online, but the local Home Depot/Costco/Target have me covered. When they get drone delivery and a good online experience, I'll be stoked.
In truth, I don't think Amazon can really compete within these niches. They get away with it because of an incredible focus on reducing transaction friction, and because they are usually "good enough" in so many categories. My worry is that Amazon will expand their monopoly, and then really start abusing it's customers, and they won't have anywhere to go.
I guess I'm just saying don't wait for them to try and screw you out of $250, give up Amazon for a month, and see how it goes! I think you'll be surprised.
On the subject of amazon alternatives, when I'm buying new books I check bookdepository.com (free international shipping!), wordery.com (free international shipping!) and booksplea.se (free international shipping!) first.
They don't have the range of books that amazon does, but they beat amazon on price often enough to make them worth checking (and every so often, they really undercut amazon).
They don't have the range of books that amazon does, but they beat amazon on price often enough to make them worth checking (and every so often, they really undercut amazon).
Amazon own Book Depository.
I recently had a run-in with their support department when they shipped me a book that was a) a photocopy of the original b) with a damaged cover.
They were not willing to take any responsibility for this and made it very clear that they did not want to replace it.
So I've soured on them.
I recently had a run-in with their support department when they shipped me a book that was a) a photocopy of the original b) with a damaged cover.
They were not willing to take any responsibility for this and made it very clear that they did not want to replace it.
So I've soured on them.
They do indeed own BookDepository. I'm sure they've got a good reason for competing with themselves at lower prices and free shipping; I'm happy just to benefit. I suppose part of how BookDepository do it is by inferior customer service; if that was bought from Amazon, I expect they'd have taken it back without question.
Pirate books supplied by reputable online retailers certainly has been on the rise. No Starch suffered it recently. It does seem to be technical books more than others, although I'm surprised it was a photocopy; usually it's just a reprint of the PDF version.
Pirate books supplied by reputable online retailers certainly has been on the rise. No Starch suffered it recently. It does seem to be technical books more than others, although I'm surprised it was a photocopy; usually it's just a reprint of the PDF version.
The big internet platforms are very customer friendly and increasingly seller hostile. It is the same thing with PayPal/Ebay for example. I have no problem buying on Amazon or via PayPal, but I would never sell through them.
eBay is pretty scary as a seller, I have to admit. The high volume people take it and chalk it up to the cost of doing business; unlucky individuals can get really, really hurt if they run into an unscrupulous buyer.
I worked for BrickLink for a time (a niche online marketplace for adult Lego fans) and I was surprised at how smoothly that place ran, which is actually a big reason to prefer niche marketplaces if they exist. Community, and reputation, means something there, whereas with the huge world-spanning monster markets you're just another face in the crowd, which is great news for criminals who know that police can't and won't pursue online property crime.
I worked for BrickLink for a time (a niche online marketplace for adult Lego fans) and I was surprised at how smoothly that place ran, which is actually a big reason to prefer niche marketplaces if they exist. Community, and reputation, means something there, whereas with the huge world-spanning monster markets you're just another face in the crowd, which is great news for criminals who know that police can't and won't pursue online property crime.
I'm curious why you ignored the return request. Was the nature of the product one that made you suspicious of fraud?
It was after 30 days, and my refund policy was "no returns after 30 days". I probably should have sent a message back, but I was a little lazy. While I may have made a customer service error, I don't think I was actually breaking the law, or any part of the customer agreement by doing this.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/ref=hel...
> Our research shows that orders with messages responded to within 24 hours receive 50% less negative feedback compared to orders with messages responded to after more than 24 hours... Timely, high-quality responses to customer inquiries are an important factor in customer satisfaction and can help prevent negative feedback or other order defects and claims. While scores that do not meet our standards generally do not result in the suspension of your selling privileges, slow response times can lead to negative feedback and claims, which can impact your selling privileges.
> Our research shows that orders with messages responded to within 24 hours receive 50% less negative feedback compared to orders with messages responded to after more than 24 hours... Timely, high-quality responses to customer inquiries are an important factor in customer satisfaction and can help prevent negative feedback or other order defects and claims. While scores that do not meet our standards generally do not result in the suspension of your selling privileges, slow response times can lead to negative feedback and claims, which can impact your selling privileges.
>"About 2 years ago I sold an item through the marketplace, shipped through Amazon, and at 30 days the buyer requested to return. I ignored him, and then... (blah blah blah) I haven't used Amazon to buy or sell anything since"
So it sounds like buying on Amazon is great way to avoid merchants who ignore support requests. Thanks for the info.
So it sounds like buying on Amazon is great way to avoid merchants who ignore support requests. Thanks for the info.
There was nothing illegal or immoral about ignoring a request I wasn't going to accept. It was after 30 days and his window for returning had closed.
Certainly I wouldn't do business with someone like you who feels that fraud is justified when some arbitrary condition you place on the other party isn't satisfied to your liking.
Certainly I wouldn't do business with someone like you who feels that fraud is justified when some arbitrary condition you place on the other party isn't satisfied to your liking.
>"someone like you who feels that fraud is justified"
This is completely unjustified and against site guidelines.
This is completely unjustified and against site guidelines.
Of course fraud isn't justified (which FWIW xiaoma in no way claimed), but if you completely ignore a request, it's not really a surprise if people go over your head and contact Amazon. "I requested a return and seller is ignoring me" may well end up with Amazon issuing a refund regardless of what your return policies say, whereas just responding with your policy details may well end the matter there (assuming the buyer isn't fraudulent).
I had something vaguely similar with Play-Asia about a year ago. Part of an order arrived damaged, and after three weeks of back-and-forth with support was no closer to receiving a replacement item or refund. I ended up filing a PayPal complaint (specifying that only part of the order was in dispute, and that I was only seeking a refund on a single item), but Play-Asia completely ignored this -- PayPal issued a refund on the entire order as a result.
BTW, why did the buyer wish to return the item? If the item had developed a fault, I'm not sure his claim of "Item not received" is _wholly_ unjustified.
I had something vaguely similar with Play-Asia about a year ago. Part of an order arrived damaged, and after three weeks of back-and-forth with support was no closer to receiving a replacement item or refund. I ended up filing a PayPal complaint (specifying that only part of the order was in dispute, and that I was only seeking a refund on a single item), but Play-Asia completely ignored this -- PayPal issued a refund on the entire order as a result.
BTW, why did the buyer wish to return the item? If the item had developed a fault, I'm not sure his claim of "Item not received" is _wholly_ unjustified.
Amazon's policy says you have to respond to buyer's inquiries within 24 hours. You literary had to just reply "Sorry my return policy is 30 days and it's been 40 days." One single sentence and you probably could have avoided the return completely. You could do that in bed. What did you think would happen if you ignored the buyer? Of course they are going to complain to Amazon.
>Certainly I wouldn't do business with someone like you who feels that fraud is justified when some arbitrary condition you place on the other party isn't satisfied to your liking.
Read the comment you are replying to, it does not say that and it does not imply that.
>Certainly I wouldn't do business with someone like you who feels that fraud is justified when some arbitrary condition you place on the other party isn't satisfied to your liking.
Read the comment you are replying to, it does not say that and it does not imply that.
Yes, he did. His response to me getting defrauded out of $250 was essentially, "Amazon did right. You deserved to be defrauded by them for not responding to a support request. I am happy they alienated you enough to get you off of their platform, because I wouldn't want to do business with bad people like you anyway." I'm exaggerating for clarity, but that's how I read his comment.
This pisses me off because it obscures the simple fact that Amazon had all the information it needed to see that he had actually received the item, but considered it "not delivered" anyway. It was fraud on the buyers part, theft and stupidity on Amazon's part for not seeing it, and it's emminently stupid for some random on the internet to say that ignoring an invalid return request deserved this response.
This pisses me off because it obscures the simple fact that Amazon had all the information it needed to see that he had actually received the item, but considered it "not delivered" anyway. It was fraud on the buyers part, theft and stupidity on Amazon's part for not seeing it, and it's emminently stupid for some random on the internet to say that ignoring an invalid return request deserved this response.
Again, this is not the case. Reread my comment. I didn't write anything at all from the perspective of you, the merchant.
As a customer, I love dealing with Amazon. This doesn't mean that I'd enjoy being their partner, supplier, employee or anybody else they deal with.
As a customer, I love dealing with Amazon. This doesn't mean that I'd enjoy being their partner, supplier, employee or anybody else they deal with.
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In Germany, there is a law that anything (I’m sure there are exceptions) sold online can be returned in the 30 days after delivery. So Amazon or not, companies must allow this anyway. Also some non-Amazon online stores offer "returnless refunds" for some items or just ship a new one to you in case of damaged item. Apart from forcing the vendors to pay for retouring the new policy is similar to German regulations and businesses seem to be OK here. Amazon could help (if it doesn’t already) vendors by providing some "rate" on a customer, if they buy a lot and return a little, then likely they are genuinely unhappy with product, and decide upon customer’s history if they are entitled to refund or if they are abusing the system.
Are you sure it is not 14 days?
https://www.verbraucherzentrale.de/So-funktioniert-der-Inter...
Nope, stand corrected. I suppose some other non-Amazon vendors offer 30 days as an extension! Or maybe some types of products?
I wonder if this is a push for sellers to move their goods to Amazon warehouses...
That said, Amazon should also provide buyer metrics to sellers so sellers can choose to sell items to customers unless that buyer has a "bad rating" (i.e. they do a lot of returns).
This has a chance at being good for everyone if done correctly, but it seems like only half the equation has been implemented.
That said, Amazon should also provide buyer metrics to sellers so sellers can choose to sell items to customers unless that buyer has a "bad rating" (i.e. they do a lot of returns).
This has a chance at being good for everyone if done correctly, but it seems like only half the equation has been implemented.
eBay needs to reduce seller costs and they will take over with buying it now prices. Also no tax.
eBay is already tremendously hostile to sellers before the fees. Can't leave feedback for buyers, a refund policy via PayPal that seems tailor made to allow scam buyers to get free stuff, and so forth.
Basically it seems like the only thing a buyer can be sanctioned for is simple non-payment.
Basically it seems like the only thing a buyer can be sanctioned for is simple non-payment.
Also ebay's huge fees make it almost not worth bothering to sell on there.
Amazon's are as high or higher.
https://sellercentral.amazon.com/gp/seller/registration/part...
The "referral fee" ranges from 8%, to 15% (common), and up. Up can go pretty high, but mostly for Amazon's own stuff.
Ebay's are mostly just in the 10% range: http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/fees.html
The "referral fee" ranges from 8%, to 15% (common), and up. Up can go pretty high, but mostly for Amazon's own stuff.
Ebay's are mostly just in the 10% range: http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/fees.html
It's interesting how each market platform is trying to tweak the equilibrium of honest/dishonest buyers vs honest/dishonest sellers.
Beyond Amazon specifically, the big picture trend is that any marketplace of 3rd-party sellers which includes eBay, PayPal, Uber, Airbnb, etc will always tilt the advantage towards the buyers.
E.g. Buyer scams sellers by claiming he got a bad product and Paypal will instantly issue a chargeback without any investigation.
If sellers try to change the balance of power by shifting to a platform that's more favorable to sellers (e.g. p2p OpenBazaar, craigslist, etc), they'd have to calculate the revenue loss from a smaller marketplace (less buyers' eyeballs). It's going to depend on the type of items if the loss is worthwhile.
E.g. If you're a seller that happens to have the unreleased iPhone 8 prototype to sell, you can use OpenBazaar to sell it because there would be plenty of buyers that don't need refund assurances from Amazon. If the item gives the seller leverage, the seller could also demand more buyer-unfriendly terms such as mandatory payment in Bitcoin instead of Paypal.
When it's not a multi-sided platform, that's when rules can tighten up to favor the seller instead of the buyer. E.g. Costco stops generous 90-day returns on big-ticket electronics and computers because buyers were "renting" video cameras for free.
(Cynical conspiracy hat on: it's possible Amazon expected the sellers' backlash and they don't care because this new policy was their way to cull the "weak" sellers that couldn't take the financial hit from returnless refunds. E.g. The "returnless refunds" policy would drive away shady Amazon Marketplace sellers that scam buyers with faulty USB-C cables: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10508494)
Beyond Amazon specifically, the big picture trend is that any marketplace of 3rd-party sellers which includes eBay, PayPal, Uber, Airbnb, etc will always tilt the advantage towards the buyers.
E.g. Buyer scams sellers by claiming he got a bad product and Paypal will instantly issue a chargeback without any investigation.
If sellers try to change the balance of power by shifting to a platform that's more favorable to sellers (e.g. p2p OpenBazaar, craigslist, etc), they'd have to calculate the revenue loss from a smaller marketplace (less buyers' eyeballs). It's going to depend on the type of items if the loss is worthwhile.
E.g. If you're a seller that happens to have the unreleased iPhone 8 prototype to sell, you can use OpenBazaar to sell it because there would be plenty of buyers that don't need refund assurances from Amazon. If the item gives the seller leverage, the seller could also demand more buyer-unfriendly terms such as mandatory payment in Bitcoin instead of Paypal.
When it's not a multi-sided platform, that's when rules can tighten up to favor the seller instead of the buyer. E.g. Costco stops generous 90-day returns on big-ticket electronics and computers because buyers were "renting" video cameras for free.
(Cynical conspiracy hat on: it's possible Amazon expected the sellers' backlash and they don't care because this new policy was their way to cull the "weak" sellers that couldn't take the financial hit from returnless refunds. E.g. The "returnless refunds" policy would drive away shady Amazon Marketplace sellers that scam buyers with faulty USB-C cables: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10508494)
Anecdotal, but I've had the opposite experience on Airbnb. A situation arose where I would have certainly received a partial refund from a hotel, and when in arbitration, Airbnb sided w/ the seller (landlord?) and there was no refund.
Basically my word vs the seller's, as things tend to be in online disputes. Not a lot of money spent, so it's not a huge issue, but makes me lean towards hotels unless Airbnb is much cheaper.
As a seller on many of the other platforms mentioned (and as a CC merchant), you are correct. Good luck winning any dispute. Best course of action is to simply try and get the product back and take the hit on shipping.
Basically my word vs the seller's, as things tend to be in online disputes. Not a lot of money spent, so it's not a huge issue, but makes me lean towards hotels unless Airbnb is much cheaper.
As a seller on many of the other platforms mentioned (and as a CC merchant), you are correct. Good luck winning any dispute. Best course of action is to simply try and get the product back and take the hit on shipping.
> Beyond Amazon specifically, the big picture trend is that any marketplace of 3rd-party sellers which includes eBay, PayPal, Uber, Airbnb, etc will always tilt the advantage towards the buyers.
eBay found out very early on that having a great marketplace for sellers is worthless without having a compelling buying experience. What good is a flea market if no customers come by, or your reputation is so bad that buyers avoid you?
eBay found out very early on that having a great marketplace for sellers is worthless without having a compelling buying experience. What good is a flea market if no customers come by, or your reputation is so bad that buyers avoid you?
From a consumer POV this is great. The only bad experiences I've had with Amazon have been with crap itmems from 3rd party sellers and then realising the postage to send it back is half the cost of the order and just letting it go.
Thank God they are making this change. I had so much bad experience with returning items to 3rd party sellers that I vowed to never buy anything that is not directly sold by Amazon.
Arrrgh. Auto-playing audio suddenly starts among a forest of tabs. WTF is with that site. :(
And yeah, obviously didn't get to read the article due to that idiocy. :(
And yeah, obviously didn't get to read the article due to that idiocy. :(
Anecdotal experience buying on Amazon recently:
Bought a new induction cooking pan. A nice one at $90. Didn't really pay much attention to who was selling it, just bought it like I do everything else from Amazon. It took about two weeks to arrive because it was from an independent seller, and was not 'Prime eligible'.
When it arrived, I took it out of the box and was immediately disappointed. It was really heavy, and the handle was shaped and angled in a way that made it hard to maneuver such a heavy pan. It'd be really difficult to do the usual flip and toss motions when cooking things.
I didn't want to spend $90 on a pan I would hate using, so I put it back in the box and requested a return.
That was when I found out exactly what the independent seller's return policy was. 1) I have to pay for return shipping (USPS best price was $38), 2) I have to pay them for the original 'free' shipping as well (no idea how much that was), and 3) I also have to pay a 25% restocking fee for an item in perfect resell-able condition. So in returning my $90 pan I figured I wouldn't get more than ~$30 back. I decided between being out $90 and having a pan or being out $60 and having nothing, I might as well keep it.
So I suppose that was a win for the seller - they successfully discouraged me from returning the item, which I'm sure would have cost them money. But it also discouraged me from buying anything on Amazon that isn't Prime, and it doesn't reflect well on Amazon that I had an experience completely contrary to their customer service values.
Bought a new induction cooking pan. A nice one at $90. Didn't really pay much attention to who was selling it, just bought it like I do everything else from Amazon. It took about two weeks to arrive because it was from an independent seller, and was not 'Prime eligible'.
When it arrived, I took it out of the box and was immediately disappointed. It was really heavy, and the handle was shaped and angled in a way that made it hard to maneuver such a heavy pan. It'd be really difficult to do the usual flip and toss motions when cooking things.
I didn't want to spend $90 on a pan I would hate using, so I put it back in the box and requested a return.
That was when I found out exactly what the independent seller's return policy was. 1) I have to pay for return shipping (USPS best price was $38), 2) I have to pay them for the original 'free' shipping as well (no idea how much that was), and 3) I also have to pay a 25% restocking fee for an item in perfect resell-able condition. So in returning my $90 pan I figured I wouldn't get more than ~$30 back. I decided between being out $90 and having a pan or being out $60 and having nothing, I might as well keep it.
So I suppose that was a win for the seller - they successfully discouraged me from returning the item, which I'm sure would have cost them money. But it also discouraged me from buying anything on Amazon that isn't Prime, and it doesn't reflect well on Amazon that I had an experience completely contrary to their customer service values.
Wow, I really am amazed how few consumer protections you seem to have!
In the UK we're protected on two levels: firstly the "Distance Selling Regulation" means we have the right to cancel many contracts/purchases made not-in-person within 14 days of delivery.
And secondly, if a good is faulty, not as described, or unfit for purpose then we have a right to a refund under those terms also.
Probably because of these already strong rights, Amazon UK (and most retailers) go beyond that and simply offer a 30 day "no questions asked" return policy in most cases.
I didn't realise until now how much I took it for granted!
In the UK we're protected on two levels: firstly the "Distance Selling Regulation" means we have the right to cancel many contracts/purchases made not-in-person within 14 days of delivery.
And secondly, if a good is faulty, not as described, or unfit for purpose then we have a right to a refund under those terms also.
Probably because of these already strong rights, Amazon UK (and most retailers) go beyond that and simply offer a 30 day "no questions asked" return policy in most cases.
I didn't realise until now how much I took it for granted!
Similiar in Germany.
Of course, the Directive is a EU Directive.
Whether the UK will keep those protections is something we'll see.
Whether the UK will keep those protections is something we'll see.
Be that as it may, I had a similar experience with an independent seller at Amazon UK. I bought a pan that arrived with a small defect and they told me I would have to pay the postage back (25 Euros on a £30 or £40 pan - I was buying from abroad). I also ended up keeping the pan and now avoid independent sellers as much as possible.
Interesting - I certainly would have raised that to support!
Why not do a chargeback on your creditcard (or raise a PayPal claim)? The law is very clear, if an item is faulty or not as described the seller is on the hook for all costs. This includes return shipping and/or sending you a replacement.
A lot of sellers will try to strong-arm you but if you just do the chargeback/claim they have no option but to eat the loss. Creditcard companies and PayPal thankfully nearly always back buyers, tilting the power balance back to the consumers' side :)
A lot of sellers will try to strong-arm you but if you just do the chargeback/claim they have no option but to eat the loss. Creditcard companies and PayPal thankfully nearly always back buyers, tilting the power balance back to the consumers' side :)
In Europe, for some sad reason credit cards are very rarely used and many stores don't accept them. Not to mention, if you do a charge back against a store like Walmart or Amazon, you won't be able to shop there anymore because they will ban you.
In day-to-day shopping creditcards are very rarely used, but I'm pretty confident that for internet purchases creditcards aren't that rare.
And as far as being banned goes: of course you first raise the issue with Amazon. Amazon says its an independent seller, go deal with them. You try to work it out with the seller, he doesn't budge, you show him the law. Still doesn't budge, you raise it with Amazon again. If Amazon doesn't budge, tell them that you are lawfully entitled and will do a chargeback, and that they can deal with the independent seller acting illegally (and if they're smart they just chargeback the seller). If they would still ban you then, that will be one hell of a juicy court case.
Have you ever gotten banned somewhere for a chargeback? I haven't that I know of. But, then, I never reach that point with anyone I've ever wanted to do any more business with, so maybe I got banned without noticing.
> Why not do a chargeback
Do you really think "I bought something sight unseen and now I don't like it, waah" gets you special snowflake protection? There is no hint that the item is faulty or not as described.
Do you really think "I bought something sight unseen and now I don't like it, waah" gets you special snowflake protection? There is no hint that the item is faulty or not as described.
If that's the law then yes?
Show me such a law.
Here you go:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/pdfs/ukpga_20150...
"I bought something sight unseen and now I don't like it, waah" will indeed entitle you to a full refund within 14 days under most circumstances.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/pdfs/ukpga_20150...
"I bought something sight unseen and now I don't like it, waah" will indeed entitle you to a full refund within 14 days under most circumstances.
[deleted]
All EU member states have laws implementing http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:319... (non-conforming products have to be fixed/replaced free of charge) and http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:320... (consumers can withdraw from most distance contracts for 14 days (although here they have to ship back on your their costs))
The parent comment states "I bought a pan that arrived with a small defect". Under UK law, that would entitle him to a refund of product cost, delivery costs, and return costs (and Amazon's policies go further - even if not faulty, the seller must provide a UK returns address or pay the costs).
He didn't say anything about a defect. The pan arrived and he didn't like it. I don't think that's the same situation as a defect.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14911971 clearly mentions a defect. The parent post of that post matches your description though.
Oh, I was looking at the wrong parent.
I bought a device through an Amazon seller. It developed a fault after 10 months, within the warrenty period. The seller told me to return it, but then after I sent it they would not answer emails. After three months with no contact I started complaining. In the end Amazon told me they could do nothing and recommended I perform a chargeback!
I'd be a little thoughtful about filing a chargeback against Amazon - businesses do have considerable latitude in their choice of response beyond the immediate situation. For example, Steam's been known to permanently disable accounts in response to chargebacks, which means that even though you probably get your money back for the one game you had a problem with, you're still out everything else.
I would love to know if that's legal (in various jurisdictions). You may have hundreds of dollars worth of games, blocking the entire account in response to one incident seems disproportionate.
Always talk to Amazon customer support if the independent seller is making a fuss about warranty or return.
Did this myself. Didn't help. All it did was add to the frustration and anger.
I'm glad Amazon changed their policy.
I'm glad Amazon changed their policy.
Amazon policy for defective items is a full refund, and free return postage.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=...
https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=...
That's not what repeated emails and calls to Amazon customer service said for a defective $350 Exergen thermometer. I kept trying to escalate the issue. Amazon Customer service kept apologizing, telling me that they could do nothing. This happened about a year ago.
Still shop at Amazon, but I definitely think more before buying bigger ticket items and I comparison shop now. Even though this policy change is great, I don't feel that I can revert back to my previous behavior of just mindlessly buying stuff at Amazon because of faith that they'll take care of you.
I am still especially wary of buying from 3rd parties on Amazon unless it's a throwaway item, and we refuse to buy anything that isn't Prime.
Still shop at Amazon, but I definitely think more before buying bigger ticket items and I comparison shop now. Even though this policy change is great, I don't feel that I can revert back to my previous behavior of just mindlessly buying stuff at Amazon because of faith that they'll take care of you.
I am still especially wary of buying from 3rd parties on Amazon unless it's a throwaway item, and we refuse to buy anything that isn't Prime.
FWIW, the A-Z guarantee would have covered this:
> Your request meets one of our A-to-z Guarantee conditions below: [...] You want to return an item internationally and the Seller does not (1) provide a return address within the UK, (2) provide a pre-paid return label, or (3) offer a full refund without requesting the item be returned.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeI...
> Your request meets one of our A-to-z Guarantee conditions below: [...] You want to return an item internationally and the Seller does not (1) provide a return address within the UK, (2) provide a pre-paid return label, or (3) offer a full refund without requesting the item be returned.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeI...
Wow, only 30 days? That's very very low. REI and other stores here in the US offer up to a year no questions asked return policy.
I didn't realize how great that was compared to the UK!
I didn't realize how great that was compared to the UK!
> Wow, only 30 days? That's very very low. REI and other stores here in the US offer up to a year no questions asked return policy.
30 minimum required by law. Not maximum.
30 minimum required by law. Not maximum.
REI is unusual, and famously gets returns on things like clothing and tents that have been used for months.
> Wow, only 30 days? That's very very low. REI and other stores here in the US offer up to a year no questions asked return policy.
REI is unusually customer-friendly, because it's a consuner cooperative. Most US stores do not offer anything like a year no-questions-asked return policy (30 days, many-questions-asked is more typical.)
REI is unusually customer-friendly, because it's a consuner cooperative. Most US stores do not offer anything like a year no-questions-asked return policy (30 days, many-questions-asked is more typical.)
Those "protections" come right back at you in your CoL.
I'd rather purchase stuff without being able to return it than pay a price that includes my statistical risk of returning things.
I'd rather purchase stuff without being able to return it than pay a price that includes my statistical risk of returning things.
the "Distance Selling Regulation" means we have the right to cancel many contracts/purchases made not-in-person within 14 days of delivery.
First of all, the Consumer Contracts Directive replaced that in 2014, no?
Second, how exactly would this have protected the buyer? Maybe no restocking fee and only difference between free and basic shipping? In EU, does seller HAVE to pay for return shipping?
Third, you know that "protection" isn't free, right? You're paying for that in terms of higher prices and lost economic opportunities.
Finally, the pro-EU, anti-US condescension laced with pity is so tiresome and ignorant. We get it, things work differently there. Some are better, some worse. It's hardly paradise.
(For the record, I've lived in the US and the EU.)
First of all, the Consumer Contracts Directive replaced that in 2014, no?
Second, how exactly would this have protected the buyer? Maybe no restocking fee and only difference between free and basic shipping? In EU, does seller HAVE to pay for return shipping?
Third, you know that "protection" isn't free, right? You're paying for that in terms of higher prices and lost economic opportunities.
Finally, the pro-EU, anti-US condescension laced with pity is so tiresome and ignorant. We get it, things work differently there. Some are better, some worse. It's hardly paradise.
(For the record, I've lived in the US and the EU.)
Not to mention, not all of the EU is the same. Want to return something in Germany? Forget about it.
Buying from an independent seller on Amazon is similar to buying on eBay. You're taking the risk of not having the customer service that large corporations can afford.
Plus, Amazon customer support will often help out with claims where the seller is in the wrong (e.g. item does not match description).
Buying from an independent seller on Amazon is similar to buying on eBay. You're taking the risk of not having the customer service that large corporations can afford.
Plus, Amazon customer support will often help out with claims where the seller is in the wrong (e.g. item does not match description).
I don't know in what Germany you are living. But with the former "Fernabsatzgesetz" (now integrated into our BGB) we have the right to return everything we order online within a period of two weeks.
Never had a problem returning anything ordered online. Ok one should nonetheless read the terms before ordering.
Never had a problem returning anything ordered online. Ok one should nonetheless read the terms before ordering.
Not to mention, not all of the EU is the same.
No, that would be rather dull. But in terms of returning stuff you bought on the Internet, it pretty much is: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_Rights_Directive_20...
"The current varying lengths of the withdrawal periods both between the Member States and for distance and off-premises contracts cause legal uncertainty and compliance costs. The same withdrawal period should apply to all distance and off-premises contracts. In the case of service contracts, the withdrawal period should expire after 14 days from the conclusion of the contract. In the case of sales contracts, the withdrawal period should expire after 14 days from the day on which the consumer or a third party other than the carrier and indicated by the consumer, acquires physical possession of the goods."
No, that would be rather dull. But in terms of returning stuff you bought on the Internet, it pretty much is: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_Rights_Directive_20...
"The current varying lengths of the withdrawal periods both between the Member States and for distance and off-premises contracts cause legal uncertainty and compliance costs. The same withdrawal period should apply to all distance and off-premises contracts. In the case of service contracts, the withdrawal period should expire after 14 days from the conclusion of the contract. In the case of sales contracts, the withdrawal period should expire after 14 days from the day on which the consumer or a third party other than the carrier and indicated by the consumer, acquires physical possession of the goods."
I have returned things bought from Germany before without problems and I am not even in the same country...
Sometimes I think Europe's chief export is incredulity :)
> And secondly, if a good is faulty, not as described, or unfit for purpose then we have a right to a refund under those terms also.
None of this applies here, OP simply wasn't happy with their purchase. Does it really make sense for the seller to have to pay out of pocket for round-trip shipping on a heavy iron pan because OP didn't bother reading the listing or looking at the pictures?
> And secondly, if a good is faulty, not as described, or unfit for purpose then we have a right to a refund under those terms also.
None of this applies here, OP simply wasn't happy with their purchase. Does it really make sense for the seller to have to pay out of pocket for round-trip shipping on a heavy iron pan because OP didn't bother reading the listing or looking at the pictures?
I don't know how long ago this was, but if it was within the last 30 days (I think) you can probably file an A-to-Z Guarantee claim and get an immediate Amazon gift card credit added to your account.
I did this recently with an item I ordered. I paid extra for the non-prime eligible 2nd day shipping. It didn't arrive until after 6 days. I filed a claim, and without having to wait for the claim process, Amazon immediately gave me the option to close the claim and receive a gift card for the amount I paid without returning the item.
I did this recently with an item I ordered. I paid extra for the non-prime eligible 2nd day shipping. It didn't arrive until after 6 days. I filed a claim, and without having to wait for the claim process, Amazon immediately gave me the option to close the claim and receive a gift card for the amount I paid without returning the item.
I had a similar experience, contacted Amazon support and they just refunded me.
From what I hear from Amazon sellers if a buyer contacts Amazon directly in this case Amazon will (usually?) refund the buyer no matter what the seller's return policy is.
Maybe the buyer has to have "Prime" though?
Maybe the buyer has to have "Prime" though?
I understand the disappointment and frustration here, but choosing to be out $90 for something that will never be used—vs. recouping some money and having the offending item gone—seems like a questionable decision.
Please read carefully, it will never be used because it was not as advertised"
> it was not as advertised
I read carefully, and did not see anything to suggest the item was not as advertised. I saw someone complain that they did not like various aspects. Absent an explicit money-back guarantee of satisfaction, I see no reason why the vendor should have to cater to every buyer's demand.
I read carefully, and did not see anything to suggest the item was not as advertised. I saw someone complain that they did not like various aspects. Absent an explicit money-back guarantee of satisfaction, I see no reason why the vendor should have to cater to every buyer's demand.
I'd agree that $90 for a single item seems quite high to throw away without contention. My ballpark would be closer to $20-30, because it's not unusual for the fee to be over $10.
But that's my own subjective feeling, and I imagine others put their range higher or lower based on factors like distance to UPS store or Amazon locker, or how much they logistically have on their plate.
But that's my own subjective feeling, and I imagine others put their range higher or lower based on factors like distance to UPS store or Amazon locker, or how much they logistically have on their plate.
As you found from looking into the costs of return shipping, "free" shipping can actually cost a retailer quite a bit of their margin. They are attempting to remain price competitive by not pricing in the cost of returns. Amazon has a massive advantage here over small retailers because their shipping costs are much lower due to their scale.
These sorts of shipping policies used to be the norm, until Amazon realized that people value free shipping more than an equivalent discount.
These sorts of shipping policies used to be the norm, until Amazon realized that people value free shipping more than an equivalent discount.
People value free shipping because shipping is a scam in a lot of cases. I used to work for a company that made logistics software. One of our customers was one of those cable channels that hawks merchandise around the clock.
You would buy a ring (looks like a real diamond!), and when it arrived you realize "hey, this is just cheap costume jewelry" and send it back. They'd happily refund the price and express hopes you'd be happier with future items.
And they didn't care about the return, because they were charging you $8 (or whatever) for non-refundable shipping and only paying the shipper $1.20. So in the end they made $6.80 for selling you nothing.
You would buy a ring (looks like a real diamond!), and when it arrived you realize "hey, this is just cheap costume jewelry" and send it back. They'd happily refund the price and express hopes you'd be happier with future items.
And they didn't care about the return, because they were charging you $8 (or whatever) for non-refundable shipping and only paying the shipper $1.20. So in the end they made $6.80 for selling you nothing.
I think much of the staying power of free shipping has to do with manufacturers' price fixing. If all retailers are forced to sell at the same exact price, then the most competitive thing to do is to pay shipping out of their overhead, similar to how a brick-and-mortar store's logistics costs are covered.
I can offer you the perspective of a small business employee that sells a number of products on Amazon without Prime fulfillment.
In your view, how much should you have paid for shipping for an item that you didn't want? Nothing?
Should the seller be responsible for shipping the item both ways?
There is already very little margin in selling commodity goods, especially when you consider Amazon takes 15% of gross value as a fee. Shipping in many cases changes the order from profitable to money-losing. If you try and price it in, you can't compete on cost which begs the question of why bother selling on Amazon in the first place.
The crux of the issue is this, though: Amazon doesn't give a shit about 3rd party sellers, nor can the 3rd party sellers provide the same level of customer service as Amazon can, mostly due to economies of scale. The whole 3rd party seller program is a testbed for Amazon, a research program to see how they operate and how Amazon can do it better and as soon as they realize how - the 3rd party sellers either get priced out by a race to the bottom with Amazon itself (they go directly to suppliers and cut everyone out) or by policies like these, which are ripe for abuse or eat further into seller margins to the point of operating at break-even or slightly in the red.
As a last note: Whenever I buy on Amazon, I buy Prime. The incentives of customers and 3rd party sellers are incompatible. If I were a customer for the goods that we are selling, I would never buy from our company.
In your view, how much should you have paid for shipping for an item that you didn't want? Nothing?
Should the seller be responsible for shipping the item both ways?
There is already very little margin in selling commodity goods, especially when you consider Amazon takes 15% of gross value as a fee. Shipping in many cases changes the order from profitable to money-losing. If you try and price it in, you can't compete on cost which begs the question of why bother selling on Amazon in the first place.
The crux of the issue is this, though: Amazon doesn't give a shit about 3rd party sellers, nor can the 3rd party sellers provide the same level of customer service as Amazon can, mostly due to economies of scale. The whole 3rd party seller program is a testbed for Amazon, a research program to see how they operate and how Amazon can do it better and as soon as they realize how - the 3rd party sellers either get priced out by a race to the bottom with Amazon itself (they go directly to suppliers and cut everyone out) or by policies like these, which are ripe for abuse or eat further into seller margins to the point of operating at break-even or slightly in the red.
As a last note: Whenever I buy on Amazon, I buy Prime. The incentives of customers and 3rd party sellers are incompatible. If I were a customer for the goods that we are selling, I would never buy from our company.
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From the PoV of a company whose products get sold by 3rd party sellers on Amazon, it's a total disaster. They regularly sell used or returned items as 'new,' and most customers don't notice. They provide atrocious customer service. Amazon does nothing to police this. These sellers also do everything in their power to avoid processing a return. I don't want to crap on your business, but I hope these regulations push the less scrupulous 3rd party sellers back to eBay.
Thanks for the perspective. I totally get it - which is why I didn't go on a rampage over my $90 pan not being up to my standards. I can sympathize with the sellers here (though I think the policies sometimes favor themselves over their customers) - BUT - as you've noted yourself, Amazon's scale has allowed them to do a lot better than the little guys. If this had been a Prime item, it would have been free return shipping and full refund, no questions asked. As a customer, why wouldn't I go for that? It makes the experience I had with a small seller seem shocking by comparison.
Instead, I'll either avoid the independent sellers, or just to to Sur le Table. So how do these sellers win?
Instead, I'll either avoid the independent sellers, or just to to Sur le Table. So how do these sellers win?
What value do 3rd party sellers actually provide to Amazon customers? Yes sometimes the price is lower, but that's usually because they bought the goods at a retail store auction for next to nothing (these auctions sell lots of returned merchandise sight unseen). Anyone running one of these businesses has to realize what they're doing is more than a little sketchy.
That's a very sweeping generalization that doesn't have much to do with reality.
The majority of 3rd party sellers by volume own their own websites outside of Amazon. The ones you described are tiny mom&pop stores that come and go by the thousand every year.
The majority of 3rd party sellers by volume own their own websites outside of Amazon. The ones you described are tiny mom&pop stores that come and go by the thousand every year.
Sorry I don't buy that. The only reason a consumer would choose a 3rd party seller is price. If Seller can beat Amazon (presumably the most efficient retailer on Earth) on price then Seller must have obtained the goods at below wholesale price.
The Amazon 3rd party seller system is not designed for these small sellers to win. It's designed for Amazon to see which products are in demand and how much customers are willing to pay along with gathering feedback from customer expectations.
It's more of a platform to see what works and what doesn't, at the expense of small businesses who wanted to sell on Amazon. At least that's my perspective. A 3-5% margin may be fine when you run a 100B business, have economies of scale and a world-class brand, but the same will spell disaster for a small business.
There are also a lot of dishonest 3rd party sellers who come and go like a swarm of locusts. Maybe they "win" in the short run by selling counterfeit goods and not honoring Amazon policies, but in the end they will lose also when Amazon bans non-prime fulfillment of orders (that day is coming sooner rather than later, my guess is before 2020)
It's more of a platform to see what works and what doesn't, at the expense of small businesses who wanted to sell on Amazon. At least that's my perspective. A 3-5% margin may be fine when you run a 100B business, have economies of scale and a world-class brand, but the same will spell disaster for a small business.
There are also a lot of dishonest 3rd party sellers who come and go like a swarm of locusts. Maybe they "win" in the short run by selling counterfeit goods and not honoring Amazon policies, but in the end they will lose also when Amazon bans non-prime fulfillment of orders (that day is coming sooner rather than later, my guess is before 2020)
Buying clothing on Amazon is also hell. I suspect that some vendors deliberately mis-size their items. For the extreme majority of items around $20-30, I don't bother returning them.
If Amazon's purchasing experience was smoother, I'd be doing less paranoid research ahead of time, looking up the company, trying to figure out if the reviews are fake. If only Amazon could shape up how much buyer's disadvantage I'm experiencing on their store, I'd be buying more often and more confidently, especially from anything other than popularly reviewed items.
Amazon needs to shape up their game because, yes, ordering online is convenient, but you can shop online at Walmart AND get the offline return assurance. And most stores price match Amazon now.
If Amazon's purchasing experience was smoother, I'd be doing less paranoid research ahead of time, looking up the company, trying to figure out if the reviews are fake. If only Amazon could shape up how much buyer's disadvantage I'm experiencing on their store, I'd be buying more often and more confidently, especially from anything other than popularly reviewed items.
Amazon needs to shape up their game because, yes, ordering online is convenient, but you can shop online at Walmart AND get the offline return assurance. And most stores price match Amazon now.
As a hardware startup who sells on Amazon, 3rd party sellers are a total nightmare. They hijack your Amazon product page, and often sell returned merchandise as 'new other' at a significant discount. Customers typically don't notice the distinction, and think they are just getting a sweet deal on a new product. I'm glad Amazon is imposing more restrictions on 3rd party sellers. Hopefully this will force some of the junk sellers to move to eBay.
It makes sense for Amazon to rein in third-party sellers. Amazon needs them to fill out the catalog and cover the long tail of products, but poor customer experiences damage Amazon's brand. I'm sure it upsets sellers, but this is part of selling through Amazon. If I have to email back and forth with the seller before I can return a defective item, why should I buy on Amazon instead of eBay?
Observation:
Don't care in the slightest about the third-party vendors' complaints. Amazon can control THEIR SITE how they want to control it. They own the site. Don't like their policies? Take your shop elsewhere.
I already stopped trusting third-party vendors on Amazon a LONG time again.
Don't care in the slightest about the third-party vendors' complaints. Amazon can control THEIR SITE how they want to control it. They own the site. Don't like their policies? Take your shop elsewhere.
I already stopped trusting third-party vendors on Amazon a LONG time again.
Last year I made a little over $500k GROSS selling games on Amazon. This policy change is going to be a nightmare because fraud and bootlegging are rampant on their platform.
Small businesses and large ones too are being forced to become sharecroppers for Amazon if they want to stay in business.
Small businesses and large ones too are being forced to become sharecroppers for Amazon if they want to stay in business.
The article mentioned sites sellers complain on. Do u read post to any? Which ones
Amazon has no qualms about fucking over their customers and closing accounts for unspecified policy violations of non-existent policy. Now they're fucking over their vendors too. Maybe they actually have written policy this time? Anyway, everyone can now get fucked over by Amazon, vendor or customer. In the end everyone stands to lose while only Amazon stands to gain.
Are that many people returning items for any reason other than the item not being as advertised in some way? If I don't get the item in the state that it was advertised in, I'm already getting a refund one way or another: either through the seller or by doing a charge back on my credit card if the seller drags their feet for more than a few weeks or is giving me BS. And I just flat out won't buy from a seller that won't shoulder the responsibility if the item is damaged or defective.
I suppose some people might return an item because they changed their mind or misjudged what they needed, but I online shop a lot and I've literally never demanded a refund for something like that. Surely it can't be that bad...
I suppose some people might return an item because they changed their mind or misjudged what they needed, but I online shop a lot and I've literally never demanded a refund for something like that. Surely it can't be that bad...
I am a big fan of internet platforms and everything but I just do not see a value in online shopping for physical goods.
Sure it might be a good thing for shopping "disposable/every day use stuff" but why would I be buying something like a cooking pan (as someone mentioned) online ?
If you know the cooking pan you want then yeah i agree amazong might be the most convenient thing but for stuff like that I just want to see them first and maybe I might buy other related stuff if I see it goes well together.
And I am telling you all this as a person that hates shopping in person.
And I am telling you all this as a person that hates shopping in person.
> why would I be buying something like a cooking pan (as someone mentioned) online
I don't know if similar applies to the US, but at least in the UK you get stronger protections when buying online (because you can't inspect the item before hand). If I buy stuff in person, then find it is not suitable for what I need, I might be stuck with it depending on the store (assuming it is as described and not faulty). If I buy it online, I can just send it back (possibly paying postage costs, but most places offer free returns).
For instance I've got a external hard drive on its way back to Amazon because, after testing, found that the performance isn't up to snuff. Had I purchased it in person, I may not have been able to return after use (because the packaging doesn't make any claims regarding performance, it'd be difficult to claim it is faulty/not as described).
I don't know if similar applies to the US, but at least in the UK you get stronger protections when buying online (because you can't inspect the item before hand). If I buy stuff in person, then find it is not suitable for what I need, I might be stuck with it depending on the store (assuming it is as described and not faulty). If I buy it online, I can just send it back (possibly paying postage costs, but most places offer free returns).
For instance I've got a external hard drive on its way back to Amazon because, after testing, found that the performance isn't up to snuff. Had I purchased it in person, I may not have been able to return after use (because the packaging doesn't make any claims regarding performance, it'd be difficult to claim it is faulty/not as described).
I can think of a few reasons:
Bigger marketplace/choices
Convenience - I don't have to wait until the store opens. I don't have to drive around to 10 different stores for 10 different products
Not everyone has has easy access to the stores they need to go to
Price
Time - I can order a pan while waiting for a client to arrive or commuting on the train.
Search and comparison tools
(There's disadvantages too, of course.)
Bigger marketplace/choices
Convenience - I don't have to wait until the store opens. I don't have to drive around to 10 different stores for 10 different products
Not everyone has has easy access to the stores they need to go to
Price
Time - I can order a pan while waiting for a client to arrive or commuting on the train.
Search and comparison tools
(There's disadvantages too, of course.)
This is very, very good for Walmart and competition between Walmart and Amazon online.
Walmart has been making an aggressive effort to recruit sellers. They'll use this mistake by Amazon to their advantage. It'll also open up opportunities for other platforms such as eBay and perhaps something that doesn't yet exist. This is a mistake of perceived power by Amazon, I imagine they're going to make a lot more of them in the coming years.
Walmart has been making an aggressive effort to recruit sellers. They'll use this mistake by Amazon to their advantage. It'll also open up opportunities for other platforms such as eBay and perhaps something that doesn't yet exist. This is a mistake of perceived power by Amazon, I imagine they're going to make a lot more of them in the coming years.
My experience on Amazon is that I try not to buy from sellers that aren't shipping directly through Amazon even if it's a lower price due to too many issues.
I broke my rule recently yet again and purchased a "new" book on Amazon from a third seller that was about 1/2 the price of any Amazon shipper for the same item. When it arrived the book was not only not new, but was seriously damaged. Pages were all stuck together where the book must have been wet at some time, a bunch of the pages were torn. This thing was damaged so badly that I about 1/3 of the pages aren't even readable. I contacted the seller and they told me they would send a replacement "right away". That was a month ago and still no replacement, but they have a "no refunds" policy.
=============Edit=========
Here's a picture of this "new" book. The packaging was not damaged at all so this had to be an issue with the reseller rather than USPS.
http://imgur.com/a/UjOSt
I broke my rule recently yet again and purchased a "new" book on Amazon from a third seller that was about 1/2 the price of any Amazon shipper for the same item. When it arrived the book was not only not new, but was seriously damaged. Pages were all stuck together where the book must have been wet at some time, a bunch of the pages were torn. This thing was damaged so badly that I about 1/3 of the pages aren't even readable. I contacted the seller and they told me they would send a replacement "right away". That was a month ago and still no replacement, but they have a "no refunds" policy.
=============Edit=========
Here's a picture of this "new" book. The packaging was not damaged at all so this had to be an issue with the reseller rather than USPS.
http://imgur.com/a/UjOSt
Just contact Amazon directly they will give you your money back right away. Same exact thing happened to me. When the seller balked I went right to Amazon.
(Was this shipped from India by any chance? Mine was.)
(Was this shipped from India by any chance? Mine was.)
Yeah, that's what I'll end up doing as well.
This was shipped from Michigan.
This was shipped from Michigan.
I can understand sellers frustration, but to my mind that's the price of having your products featured on Amazon. I've never encountered a third party who has refused a refund, so in reality I don't know if that much will change for them, unless there's a huge amount of abuse of the returnless refunds.