Tell HN: Upwork has an impersonation problem
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Just wanted chime in with second a second anecdote that I was going to post.
We needed a Django developer. Put an ad on Upwork at the high end of the recommended salary range. The ad specified US Eligible worker for legal reasons.
Of the 10 or so applicants, seven flat out refused to appear on webcam so I decided to talk to the eighth.
This person claim to be in Seattle. Having lived there I asked them two relatively simple questions. First, can you see the space needle from where you’re sitting? Answer: Yes.
Second, what color is the bubbly music museum next door? Obviously, this is a trick given it’s multicolored. My candidate, who did not lack bravado, guesses white.
I get that being born into particular circumstances is luck of the draw. On the other hand there’s a reason that people are willing to pay more to hire US-based workers.
I believe this has become a general societal problem. People running so called two-sided marketplaces regularly fail to take responsibility for gaming by one side. I would further argue that Upwork has even more responsibility given the monitoring of and commission they take from an ongoing relationship.
The US probably has too many regulations - in my opinion - concerning immigrant workers; however, no temp agency could get away with what Upwork is doing without facing severe repercussions.
I’d like to see Upwork punished.
We needed a Django developer. Put an ad on Upwork at the high end of the recommended salary range. The ad specified US Eligible worker for legal reasons.
Of the 10 or so applicants, seven flat out refused to appear on webcam so I decided to talk to the eighth.
This person claim to be in Seattle. Having lived there I asked them two relatively simple questions. First, can you see the space needle from where you’re sitting? Answer: Yes.
Second, what color is the bubbly music museum next door? Obviously, this is a trick given it’s multicolored. My candidate, who did not lack bravado, guesses white.
I get that being born into particular circumstances is luck of the draw. On the other hand there’s a reason that people are willing to pay more to hire US-based workers.
I believe this has become a general societal problem. People running so called two-sided marketplaces regularly fail to take responsibility for gaming by one side. I would further argue that Upwork has even more responsibility given the monitoring of and commission they take from an ongoing relationship.
The US probably has too many regulations - in my opinion - concerning immigrant workers; however, no temp agency could get away with what Upwork is doing without facing severe repercussions.
I’d like to see Upwork punished.
Refusing to be on web cam without a compelling reason is a huge red flag by itself.
I very seldom feel inclined to refuse, but I even more seldom feel comfortable on camera. Which is to say in most circumstances I avoid being on camera when I can. I’ve been remote most of my career, nothing changed the last few years to introduce new stressors around this. I just don’t like being on video, or interacting with other people on video. It gives me a firm but unspecific sense of unease is unlikely to be “compelling” to anyone who doesn’t relate… so, huge red flag I guess? Not sure what you think it flags, but I’m glad you’re not requesting meetings with me.
I think if you're introducing yourself to people who'd like to hire you and haven't met you, it is normal etiquette to appear on camera. There is still a level of body language conveyed, even if it's just your face.
I think we all get not wanting to be on camera for every meeting, but surely it makes sense to present yourself on camera for the initial interview if you're able?
I think we all get not wanting to be on camera for every meeting, but surely it makes sense to present yourself on camera for the initial interview if you're able?
This implies that body language is accurate and useful which is not always the case. I'd argue that many who legitimately don't wish to be on camera have very good reasons for this. I do not enjoy being on camera or even talking on the phone. I also have ADHD which makes it very difficult to just sit still and listen/watch an AV feed for a significant period of time even if I know that what is occurring on that feed is very important. My brain literally doesn't care what my mind thinks/knows it's going to do what it wants/needs to do which is fidget, search for sources of stimulation, and in general do all kinds of things considered "rude" to do when having a conversation or attending a meeting. Nevermind that I'm absolutely still paying attention, but I can't JUST pay attention. A lot of this hesitation to appear on camera in situations like mine isn't because I don't actually like being on camera, I don't care, but the negative reactions me being on camera can cause because someone doesn't know me and my specific uh... "issues" means that I just prefer not do so if possible.
I don’t know about etiquette, but body language is generally not how I want to be viewed during a hiring process, on screen or in person. I’m not particularly talented at making appropriate eye contact, or not flailing inappropriately, or keeping my coffee mug from crashing on the floor. I’m very talented at engineering software. I’m sure many businesses would agree I’m not a good fit, and… well, too bad for them.
Yep yep yep.
I've made it clear to bossmang that I don't really do customer contact. I got badly burned out in technical support decades ago, and it's still baggage I carry around, so I simply do not have a "customer service voice".
I'm hired to develop software, and I will do that to the best of my ability, but if they ever ask me to help out on the support end, I've made it clear what they can expect.
"Now listen here, you little shit..."
I've made it clear to bossmang that I don't really do customer contact. I got badly burned out in technical support decades ago, and it's still baggage I carry around, so I simply do not have a "customer service voice".
I'm hired to develop software, and I will do that to the best of my ability, but if they ever ask me to help out on the support end, I've made it clear what they can expect.
"Now listen here, you little shit..."
Sure, I relate: but would you comply if asked for webcam on for an interview for a remote position?
Quoting myself: I very seldom feel inclined to refuse. That said, interviewing for my current position (fully remote team), I was given the option of video or voice call, and I chose voice. I chose that cautiously because I knew it might be offputting but I also knew it might be a good indicator of my prospective team’s culture if it had been offputting. Fortunately that wasn’t an issue!
And I now do a video chat about once a week, which isn’t particularly demanding, and it’s generally a positive experience because we work well together… but I do take an hour or two to decompress afterwards.
And I now do a video chat about once a week, which isn’t particularly demanding, and it’s generally a positive experience because we work well together… but I do take an hour or two to decompress afterwards.
I would have chosen video chat, but otherwise it sounds likes we have a very similar perspective on this. Good point about using that moment as a team fit thing. Cheers
There have been good A/B studies showing significant changes in response rate to resumes with and without photos. How someone looks doesn't seem like it should be correlated with their ability to draw a picture or choose a search algorithm.
We’re not talking unconscious bias silliness here. We’re talking about literal fraud/misrepresentation and needing verification that someone is who they claim to be. Using our eyebulbs isn’t inherently problematic.
"unconscious bias silliness" so you're telling me that an interviewer is just as likely to hire someone who has visible issues sitting still/focusing on a video call as they are someone who sits perfectly still and gives their full 100% attention to the call? No, not a chance. When there are two candidates for a position at approximately equal skill levels when performing a video interview but one has ADHD that comes along with the inability to remain solely focused on one small screen and voice for an extended period of time you can guess which candidate is going to be picked the vast majority of the time. Dismissing such a huge issue as silliness is exactly the reason why many people who have issues similar to that do not want to perform video calls for interviews.
I think you're misunderstanding them. You two are basically discussing two (very important) topics.
On the topic of fraud prevention, the interviewer could simply ask the interviewee to be on camera for literally 5 seconds, then feel free to turn off video.
Again, this is based on an Upwork profile that already had a picture, so if discrimination was going to happen, it would be before the video interview stage anyway. This is just about a verification step, and in a platform like Upwork, refusing to be on camera for LITERALLY 5 seconds probably SHOULD be considered a big red flag.
On the topic of fraud prevention, the interviewer could simply ask the interviewee to be on camera for literally 5 seconds, then feel free to turn off video.
Again, this is based on an Upwork profile that already had a picture, so if discrimination was going to happen, it would be before the video interview stage anyway. This is just about a verification step, and in a platform like Upwork, refusing to be on camera for LITERALLY 5 seconds probably SHOULD be considered a big red flag.
Yes, unconscious bias is a silly thing to talk about when so many still people face outright discrimination and hostility, but I don't think GP meant unconscious bias.
The A/B studies are also used to prove discrimination that people usually won't admit to, not only to reveal unconscious bias.
The A/B studies are also used to prove discrimination that people usually won't admit to, not only to reveal unconscious bias.
I'm unsure if this is at all equivalent. I'm pretty sure I'd see someone in person before covid forced remote work (thankfully), physically, and that confirms the identity of who I'm talking to to a huge extent.
How you interact with someone is just as important, if not more important, than if they can choose the correct algorithm.
How you interact with someone is just as important, if not more important, than if they can choose the correct algorithm.
This is true.
It's also true that Upwork has many, many people who will present themselves as a single individual. Instead, they are actually an agency and you will get a rotating cast of developers. This becomes apparent the fifth time you explain the same thing to your contractor, who is actually not the person you explained it to the fourth time, or the third time, or on and on and on.
Video verification helps you ensure that you are getting what you paid for, and that your time explaining the brief and iterating on their work isn't wasted.
It's also true that Upwork has many, many people who will present themselves as a single individual. Instead, they are actually an agency and you will get a rotating cast of developers. This becomes apparent the fifth time you explain the same thing to your contractor, who is actually not the person you explained it to the fourth time, or the third time, or on and on and on.
Video verification helps you ensure that you are getting what you paid for, and that your time explaining the brief and iterating on their work isn't wasted.
Refusing to show up on a webcam is undoubtedly correlated with liklihood of fraud and misrepresentation. I suppose "this is why we can't have nice things."
I adamantly am a camera off person but am shame to admit I do add my photo to resume, it really did make responses from companies night and day
Are you based in the US?
I actually think I've benefited from the reverse. I have a very Asian sounding last name (spelled completely different though) despite being of Russian-Dutch-English descent.
I've noticed in the age of remote work some people seem suprised when they first see me. I am now wondering if I am benefiting from the opposite problem of people correlating me with Asian stereotypes?
I've noticed in the age of remote work some people seem suprised when they first see me. I am now wondering if I am benefiting from the opposite problem of people correlating me with Asian stereotypes?
I worked a job for 3 years and never once turned on my camera. It worked out great. I even had my webcam off for my going away party.
> I worked a job for 3 years and never once turned on my camera. It worked out great. I even had my webcam off for my going away party.
But that's not quite the same as interviewing with the webcam off.
But that's not quite the same as interviewing with the webcam off.
I've worked with clients in the past who have never seen my face in video. Had years long relationships with some of them without ever having seen each other on webcam, and it worked out great on both of our ends.
I even have (ex)founding partners in million$ companies that were sold or still exist who I never saw or spoke to via voice. Only text chat. I also have and had many colleagues I never saw or voice spoke to. Works fine; no one cares on either side.
But would you have refused to talk to them on video once for verification purposes?
I would have made it clear that I'd rather not be inconvenienced, and I would also find it insulting that my identity was in question given the publicizing I've done, the publication of my work, how I feel about the quality of my work for said clients and the existing positive relationships with the clients.
throwawaysleep(11)
> Second, what color is the bubbly music museum next door? Obviously, this is a trick given it’s multicolored.
I went to the Space Needle three years ago and I wouldn't be able to answer that question. I wouldn't assume that someone who lives in Seattle goes through the Space Needle area on a daily basis; it's quite touristy.
This comes from someone who lives in touristy areas. Ask me what color a building is next to my statehouse (just walked by a few weeks ago,) or next to the famous place that Elvis was photographed by that I drive by almost every day, and I wouldn't be able to tell you.
I went to the Space Needle three years ago and I wouldn't be able to answer that question. I wouldn't assume that someone who lives in Seattle goes through the Space Needle area on a daily basis; it's quite touristy.
This comes from someone who lives in touristy areas. Ask me what color a building is next to my statehouse (just walked by a few weeks ago,) or next to the famous place that Elvis was photographed by that I drive by almost every day, and I wouldn't be able to tell you.
The point is, if he can see the needle out his window right now, he can just look out the window to look at the building next door.
The space needle is over 500 feet tall. I'm assuming that the building they're talking about is the Chihuly exhibit which is about 40 feet tall according to their website [0]. There are plenty of vantage points around Seattle where you can see the space needle but not see what's next to it on the ground.
[0] https://www.chihulygardenandglass.com/about/exhibition
[0] https://www.chihulygardenandglass.com/about/exhibition
In which case the interviewee should say, "I can't see the short building next door, so I'm not sure what color it is." But the post said the interviewee just lied and said "white".
The music museum next door to the Space Needle is MoPOP (formerly known as the Experience Music Project):
https://www.mopop.org/
That being said, it's definitely much shorter than the Space Needle.
https://www.mopop.org/
That being said, it's definitely much shorter than the Space Needle.
Maybe lying about whether you can see it is a red flag?
[deleted]
I'm looking for advice on a similar issue.
Somebody is impersonating me on dating sites and blackmailing women. They convince their victims to send nude photos, and then they threaten to send the photos to their families. The scammer (or scammers) use photos of me that used to be publicly available on social media. They also use my real name, presumably so that the victims see a legitimate LinkedIn profile when they google "me".
Years ago, I got called to a meeting with my work's Human Resources department. The victim had looked me up and emailed my company. HR told me that "I" had to stop doing this. When I realized what had happened, I knew that I couldn't do anything to make it stop. Thankfully HR didn't take any action, but the whole time I worked there I had low-level background anxiety that another victim would contact them.
Last month, a different victim messaged me on LinkedIn because she was suspicious of "my" profile on OKCupid. She sent me screenshots of the profile and messages. The scammer used obviously non-native english, so at least there's some credible evidence that it's not actually me.
I've only become aware of the two incidents above, but I'm sure there are many other victims. I emailed OKCupid to ask them to block the impersonator, but I don't know if they can even stop him from re-registering, and there are other dating sites. I no longer have recent photos publicly available, and I've locked down all social media, but I don't want to delete my LinkedIn.
What else can I do? Has anyone else had something like this happen to them?
Somebody is impersonating me on dating sites and blackmailing women. They convince their victims to send nude photos, and then they threaten to send the photos to their families. The scammer (or scammers) use photos of me that used to be publicly available on social media. They also use my real name, presumably so that the victims see a legitimate LinkedIn profile when they google "me".
Years ago, I got called to a meeting with my work's Human Resources department. The victim had looked me up and emailed my company. HR told me that "I" had to stop doing this. When I realized what had happened, I knew that I couldn't do anything to make it stop. Thankfully HR didn't take any action, but the whole time I worked there I had low-level background anxiety that another victim would contact them.
Last month, a different victim messaged me on LinkedIn because she was suspicious of "my" profile on OKCupid. She sent me screenshots of the profile and messages. The scammer used obviously non-native english, so at least there's some credible evidence that it's not actually me.
I've only become aware of the two incidents above, but I'm sure there are many other victims. I emailed OKCupid to ask them to block the impersonator, but I don't know if they can even stop him from re-registering, and there are other dating sites. I no longer have recent photos publicly available, and I've locked down all social media, but I don't want to delete my LinkedIn.
What else can I do? Has anyone else had something like this happen to them?
If you can prove you've suffered damages due to this (which maybe you can, if it affected your employment), you could sue John Doe, which would get you subpoena power against OKCupid.
You probably wouldn't be able to collect from the scammer (who is likely in another country), but I guarantee you'll get OKCupid's legal department's attention, and they might be able to put a stop to it.
The lawsuit would also create a paper trail that you can use to exonerate yourself in the future.
Sadly, this is unlikely to be the sort of case an attorney would take on contingency.
You probably wouldn't be able to collect from the scammer (who is likely in another country), but I guarantee you'll get OKCupid's legal department's attention, and they might be able to put a stop to it.
The lawsuit would also create a paper trail that you can use to exonerate yourself in the future.
Sadly, this is unlikely to be the sort of case an attorney would take on contingency.
Thank you. I hadn't considered legal options. I would prefer not to have a public lawsuit attached to my name -- I know, that's the point, but I don't want to call attention to this.
I'm thinking about doing something private but formalized, like having a lawyer send a letter to OKCupid summarizing recent events and demanding they take down profiles impersonating me. I could share that letter with my (new) employer if another victim ever contacted them directly. I know it wouldn't really prove anything, but it might be convincing to HR. Last time, the HR representative didn't seem to believe me, which definitely made me feel terrible and theoretically could have affected my career.
I'm thinking about doing something private but formalized, like having a lawyer send a letter to OKCupid summarizing recent events and demanding they take down profiles impersonating me. I could share that letter with my (new) employer if another victim ever contacted them directly. I know it wouldn't really prove anything, but it might be convincing to HR. Last time, the HR representative didn't seem to believe me, which definitely made me feel terrible and theoretically could have affected my career.
> but I don't want to call attention to this
I mean, neither does OKCupid. If they don't want to play ball, going wide (notably, with an attorney) only seems to benefit you: current and future employers see it's not actually you doing this, OKCupid risks losing the only thing they want (women that trust the app), and other women get a heads up.
I mean, neither does OKCupid. If they don't want to play ball, going wide (notably, with an attorney) only seems to benefit you: current and future employers see it's not actually you doing this, OKCupid risks losing the only thing they want (women that trust the app), and other women get a heads up.
The lawsuit would also create a paper trail that you can use to exonerate yourself in the future.
Thanks to the tragedy of a common name in my country, I’ve had to petition multiple jurisdictions to procure paperwork for a very similar reason.
Only became a necessity when applying for a job and being asked, once the background check came back for someone who had not only the same name but also birthdate 700 miles away if I had been convicted of extortion and blackmail.
How that had never come up before I hit my late thirties is anyone’s guess, since the conviction was recent enough to get someone looking more closely, but not so long ago that again I’m surprised that moment was the first anyone had asked me about it after doing a background check.
Long story short, a few letters to the jurisdictions in question and $500 worth of help from a local attorney and I soon had official papers saying “No, the Bob Loblaw applying for your job is not THAT Bob Loblaw we threw the book at.”
Thanks to the tragedy of a common name in my country, I’ve had to petition multiple jurisdictions to procure paperwork for a very similar reason.
Only became a necessity when applying for a job and being asked, once the background check came back for someone who had not only the same name but also birthdate 700 miles away if I had been convicted of extortion and blackmail.
How that had never come up before I hit my late thirties is anyone’s guess, since the conviction was recent enough to get someone looking more closely, but not so long ago that again I’m surprised that moment was the first anyone had asked me about it after doing a background check.
Long story short, a few letters to the jurisdictions in question and $500 worth of help from a local attorney and I soon had official papers saying “No, the Bob Loblaw applying for your job is not THAT Bob Loblaw we threw the book at.”
I had a similar problem, except he raped a woman (convinced her to come to an address, come inside, all lights off, no talking). She contacted me via LinkedIn when he ghosted her. Got police involved but took 18 months to get all the information lined up from bumble and Snapchat (ie phone numbers etc). He was deported for domestic violence before they could arrest him.
Trying to get plenty of fish, bumble, tinder to respond was impossible.
Since there were very few photos of me publicly available online I feel I should be able to blacklist photos of me to these providers so people can’t use prepackaged profiles of me.
After he was deported, I was messaged by about 15 women in the US who were catfished by the same profile(s).
I feel there is some forum somewhere where people pass around these prepackaged profiles of people who they feel are good ‘candidates’ to impersonate.
Really disturbing
Trying to get plenty of fish, bumble, tinder to respond was impossible.
Since there were very few photos of me publicly available online I feel I should be able to blacklist photos of me to these providers so people can’t use prepackaged profiles of me.
After he was deported, I was messaged by about 15 women in the US who were catfished by the same profile(s).
I feel there is some forum somewhere where people pass around these prepackaged profiles of people who they feel are good ‘candidates’ to impersonate.
Really disturbing
God, that's awful. Thank you for sharing. I'm sorry for you and especially the women involved.
It's horrible to think that my photos are being used for this and there's nothing I can do about it. Even if I cover myself legally, people are still going to be victimized. I hope I never have to involve the police.
It's horrible to think that my photos are being used for this and there's nothing I can do about it. Even if I cover myself legally, people are still going to be victimized. I hope I never have to involve the police.
This is nightmare fuel. I can’t even imagine what you’re going through.
Facebook has a similar problem. They’ve known about it for more than a decade…it was probably reported long before I reported it, but I first saw and reported in in 2008. But recently a friend of my mom was taken for $1000, so they’ve obviously not taken the simple steps necessary to prevent it.
The scam is basically to find someone with a lot of friends and copy their profile, pictures and all. Once they’ve done that, they reconnect and have an emergency that requires the friend send money. People naturally see the profile photo and name and think their friend is in real trouble.
With all of Facebook’s efforts to de-anonymize users, how is it possible that they’ve done nothing to prevent foreign scanners from blatantly copying accounts?
The scam is basically to find someone with a lot of friends and copy their profile, pictures and all. Once they’ve done that, they reconnect and have an emergency that requires the friend send money. People naturally see the profile photo and name and think their friend is in real trouble.
With all of Facebook’s efforts to de-anonymize users, how is it possible that they’ve done nothing to prevent foreign scanners from blatantly copying accounts?
Sorry to hear about that problem. Maybe you could put a warning about the impersonator on your LinkedIn bio.
Thank you for the recommendation! I'm having trouble phrasing a warning in a way that's clear to a scam victim, without seeming weird or off-putting to business contacts. It's somewhat upsetting to think about this too much, which may be why I'm struggling.
Would you mind suggesting how to word it?
Would you mind suggesting how to word it?
> Would you mind suggesting how to word it?
Here’s a first draft:
NOTICE: It has recently come to my attention that someone is impersonating me, by using my name and photos, to take advantage of people on some social apps. If you saw my profile on a dating app or similar service, it isn't me. I'm not on any of those platforms. Thank you and please stay safe.
edit: removed scare quotes
Here’s a first draft:
NOTICE: It has recently come to my attention that someone is impersonating me, by using my name and photos, to take advantage of people on some social apps. If you saw my profile on a dating app or similar service, it isn't me. I'm not on any of those platforms. Thank you and please stay safe.
edit: removed scare quotes
Thank you, I really appreciate your help with this.
Yep definitely, put it as the first thing in the bio so it hopefully gets indexed by search engines. Maybe even set up a website that ranks high for your name so you can warn others.
I would be thinking very hard about all the ways I could prove, definitively, that I could not be the person doing this to others.
Watermark your photos. Indicate anywhere and everywhere anyone using your photos is probably an imposter.
As others have said, you probably need to start the legal train rolling so you can subpeona OkCupid and co.
As others have said, you probably need to start the legal train rolling so you can subpeona OkCupid and co.
The horse is out of the barn, unfortunately. The recent victim's screenshots had the same photos as the first incident (HR showed them to me).
I no longer have any public photos available except on LinkedIn. I will consider taking that down.
I no longer have any public photos available except on LinkedIn. I will consider taking that down.
You may be able to spoiler the photos by posting them to several stock photo sites and meme sites. Basically flood them so they are obviously random internet finds.
This does come with obvious downsides.
This does come with obvious downsides.
Which really isn't an option for a lot of people. Even leaving aside personal stuff, I probably have hundreds of photos associated with conference talks and the like.
The issue with pushing this responsibility onto companies if that they can only help with reactive measures. They can't easily take a proactive approach. How does a company prove someone is not who they say they are when all they require is an email and maybe a name to create an account?
At best, they can make it slightly harder to impersonate a user by requiring MFA and detecting duplicate accounts (ie, accounts using the same picture). I think stuff like this will only get worse over time.
At best, they can make it slightly harder to impersonate a user by requiring MFA and detecting duplicate accounts (ie, accounts using the same picture). I think stuff like this will only get worse over time.
[deleted]
I've been on the other side of this, hiring fake people. I'm actually going to stop using Upwork after almost 10 years. It's such a cesspool of fraud now that I can't figure out how to find the honest people.
As an example, I recently hired someone who showed his face on video and had great communication skills. Next time we did a call, he had no video and sounded totally different. It turned out to be a subcontractor impersonating him.
As an example, I recently hired someone who showed his face on video and had great communication skills. Next time we did a call, he had no video and sounded totally different. It turned out to be a subcontractor impersonating him.
> It's such a cesspool of fraud now that I can't figure out how to find the honest people.
now? I've heard similar horror stories going back years. Perhaps you were lucky in that you got more positive than negative out of it earlier?
now? I've heard similar horror stories going back years. Perhaps you were lucky in that you got more positive than negative out of it earlier?
It's very possible I was lucky. I also only worked with people who were willing to appear on video, had long work history, and didn't do more than a single job at a time.
Recently I had thought that maybe prices had gone up, and I was just not paying enough for the honest, individual contractors, but even at $120+/hr, we were getting people misrepresenting their skills or trying to trick us with subcontractors.
Recently I had thought that maybe prices had gone up, and I was just not paying enough for the honest, individual contractors, but even at $120+/hr, we were getting people misrepresenting their skills or trying to trick us with subcontractors.
The few success stories I've known from upwork have been people who managed to find one sharp person, then went direct with them ASAP, and left upwork behind.
the other side of that is Upwork exclude legit people for vague and often made up reasons, I tried to sign up as I was curious, almost instantly disabled for "fraud" - thought it was pretty funny, especially after seeing all the obviously bogus tenders etc
Seems like this can be solved with a quick address verification no?
How? And what would their address tell me?
it would be easy to tell apart real vs fake ones
It's very easy to fake an address and almost impossible to verify one.
I could verify your address for 60¢
I ran into this a few years ago and wrote about my experience:
https://mtlynch.io/upwork-scammer/
tl; dr - I caught an Upwork freelancer blatantly copying other freelancers profiles. I reported it to Upwork, who said they'd handle it but couldn't tell me the details I reached out to the freelancer's other clients to tell them the freelancer was a fraud, and they said Upwork had never notified them.
https://mtlynch.io/upwork-scammer/
tl; dr - I caught an Upwork freelancer blatantly copying other freelancers profiles. I reported it to Upwork, who said they'd handle it but couldn't tell me the details I reached out to the freelancer's other clients to tell them the freelancer was a fraud, and they said Upwork had never notified them.
yea, Upwork said they can't disclose to me what action(s) they took "due to account privacy"
You mean...the account privacy of someone pretending to be me?
You mean...the account privacy of someone pretending to be me?
20 years ago, someone stole my credit card information and bought some stuff as me. I'm in Michigan, and they sent a bed and mattress to Florida. I called the store first, asking about the charge. Verified some part of the card number, name the order was under, etc... I asked what address it was sent to. "We can't tell you that. Our privacy policy prevents that".
Me: "So... you're charging what is my credit card, you've verified my identity, you acknowledge this order was placed in my name, and you're happy to take my money, but you won't tell me where 'my' order was sent?"
Sears(!): "Yes, that's correct".
Called the bank... got a 'fraudulent charge' form faxed(!) to me, which I filled out and sent back same day.
Me: "So... you're charging what is my credit card, you've verified my identity, you acknowledge this order was placed in my name, and you're happy to take my money, but you won't tell me where 'my' order was sent?"
Sears(!): "Yes, that's correct".
Called the bank... got a 'fraudulent charge' form faxed(!) to me, which I filled out and sent back same day.
To be fair to the store, their privacy policy was likely designed to stop things like abusive spouses/parents tracking down people who they gave permission to use a card.
To be unfair to the store, they are probably just being stupid.
Not giving the shipping address to the “customer” is just dumb. I think it’s good to protect people from abusive spouses and parents, but if someone is using their credit card and impersonating them then that’s not quite right.
I also think it’s more likely to have identity theft than to have a spouse trying to find the new address where a mattress was sent.
My theory is that the store was trying to protect their sale and was gambling that with less info the real person would not be able to cancel the order. So short sightedness.
Not giving the shipping address to the “customer” is just dumb. I think it’s good to protect people from abusive spouses and parents, but if someone is using their credit card and impersonating them then that’s not quite right.
I also think it’s more likely to have identity theft than to have a spouse trying to find the new address where a mattress was sent.
My theory is that the store was trying to protect their sale and was gambling that with less info the real person would not be able to cancel the order. So short sightedness.
well... I ended up 'cancelling' via chargeback anyway.
How did you find the freelancer's other clients? Upwork keeps that pretty locked down so that they can serve as the middleman. (Maybe you have a hack?)
The freelancer had Work Diary enabled, which took screenshots of their screen as they worked and shared them with me as their client.
From the screenshots, I could identify other projects they worked on and other Upwork accounts they were using.
From the screenshots, I could identify other projects they worked on and other Upwork accounts they were using.
At that time, I believe you could see previous work by default, now you have to choose to share it.
I've been hiring on Upwork since 2007. I love the idea of being able to hire people with particular skillsets for a short time. For example, we had a unique issue with elasticsearch. We hired someone on Upwork with a Ph.D. and wrote a book on it. For a few hundred dollars, he was able to resolve our issue in a few hours.
For every good experience, we have had about four bad experiences. The Upwork marketplace is filled with accounts pretending to be in North America and using fake photos. If you start looking at the profile pics on Upwork, you'll see they have the fake teeth from thispersondoesnotexist.
We've accidentally hired some of these fake people. Not only can they code, but they are pretty good. Upwork usually freezes the contractor's account when they try to get their first payout and fail the identity verification. Then we get a request from the contractor to pay by Paypal. It's a mess.
Here's the chat response from one of the contractors when they were found out:
> OK, let me explain. > To be honest, i am based on China. > But i can complete the task really well. > But i can't work with high rate on upwork as Chinese. > I am really sorry for that. > You can confirm me through video call. > Anyway, i am really good developer in Bootstrap 4 and css3, Html5 and etc. > you can check my result.
Upwork should be doing more to fix this. They are very aware of the issue. I once emailed their old CEO about the issue and got a reply from an assistant offering an account credit.
I wish there was a good alternative!
For every good experience, we have had about four bad experiences. The Upwork marketplace is filled with accounts pretending to be in North America and using fake photos. If you start looking at the profile pics on Upwork, you'll see they have the fake teeth from thispersondoesnotexist.
We've accidentally hired some of these fake people. Not only can they code, but they are pretty good. Upwork usually freezes the contractor's account when they try to get their first payout and fail the identity verification. Then we get a request from the contractor to pay by Paypal. It's a mess.
Here's the chat response from one of the contractors when they were found out:
> OK, let me explain. > To be honest, i am based on China. > But i can complete the task really well. > But i can't work with high rate on upwork as Chinese. > I am really sorry for that. > You can confirm me through video call. > Anyway, i am really good developer in Bootstrap 4 and css3, Html5 and etc. > you can check my result.
Upwork should be doing more to fix this. They are very aware of the issue. I once emailed their old CEO about the issue and got a reply from an assistant offering an account credit.
I wish there was a good alternative!
You've kept using this service for over 10 years despite a 1/5 success rate?
This happened to me and I sent a notice to Upwork's legal department demanding a takedown. Using my likeness to make money is a violation of Massachusetts Right of Publicity law (https://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/massachusetts-right-publici...) so I would be entitled to any profits made by Upwork for using my likeness. It is possible and likely your jurisdiction may have similar laws, and if your likeness is being used, do not hesitate to deploy them to expedite these takedowns.
A small company I worked for years ago had a similar problem on one of the gig work sites. Someone listed a dozen or so web sites they had designed, programmed, and provided to clients complete with links. The problem was eight to ten of them were from our portfolio. We got their portfolio updated to not include our work and an assurance the account would be closed if the perpetrator did the same heinous thing again.
So, yes, your accomplishments in multiple different forms can be claimed by someone else. It can pay to be aware of this, but there's a cost to staying on top of it. Make sure to balance the two.
So, yes, your accomplishments in multiple different forms can be claimed by someone else. It can pay to be aware of this, but there's a cost to staying on top of it. Make sure to balance the two.
I have experience on Upwork both hiring and being hired. From hiring perspective, the person I interviewed was not the person who actually did the work. Being hired via Upwork, it was a challenge to even land an interview; I'd bid things and be in a pool among 10+ other people internationally with lower rates. I've worked in software in the US for over 10 years. The other aspect is that often those hiring on Upwork don't know what to look for, or have unrealistic expectations. I did find a few mutually successful gigs, but didn't make as much as I could have in industry. I decided that working for a normal company was more advantageous.
I'm not sure what triggers it, but they do identity validation at some point (probably tied to receiving funds) - I recently had to do this. They ask for an ID scan, and then do a video call with a staff member. Once you're in the validation needed phase, you cannot take on more projects or withdraw funds.
According to Upwork support when I spoke to them
> Please know that as soon as the freelancer applies or is offered a contract, we would run an identity verification process which would have them submit a Government-issued ID and have a quick video chat or send us a selfie to prove their identity.
However, this is way too late in the process for my liking...and who knows how strict they actually are?
> Please know that as soon as the freelancer applies or is offered a contract, we would run an identity verification process which would have them submit a Government-issued ID and have a quick video chat or send us a selfie to prove their identity.
However, this is way too late in the process for my liking...and who knows how strict they actually are?
I think I remember this process, was so weird. You don't see anyone on the other side. Just a black screen.
Side note, I cringe at that thought, I did some mturk work long time ago, had to scan people's photos on a random social network site. Tinder has this "verify" thing you stick your tongue out to the left, some worker somewhere sees it face #5753 and hits okay.
Side note, I cringe at that thought, I did some mturk work long time ago, had to scan people's photos on a random social network site. Tinder has this "verify" thing you stick your tongue out to the left, some worker somewhere sees it face #5753 and hits okay.
Yeah, I was thinking about this process as well (did it about 10 years ago now when it was still E-lance, I think... wow). I guess it wouldn't be that hard to fake your way through the process, maybe the level of effort is worth it for the amount they're ripping off?
I've had the inversion of this occur, when I've been obviously talking to an impersonator working out of China. They always push for a Zoom call. The video is extremely dark. They lie about their location. It's maddening. Even for direct hire, I had two candidates send in resumes with the same avatar, but with the image mirrored. And it was still a resume with an Asian name! And an Asian-featured person! Why would they even bother at that point??
We had a specific project that required hardware to be shipped to the vendor, and required it to be in the US, and people would just lie, openly, as if when the time comes to ship the hardware to them I'm not going to notice it's going to China or a reshipper.
We had a specific project that required hardware to be shipped to the vendor, and required it to be in the US, and people would just lie, openly, as if when the time comes to ship the hardware to them I'm not going to notice it's going to China or a reshipper.
Interesting enough, years ago I worked on upwork. And now, I get emails from developers in India asking if they can partner with me, use my account to get customers and then split the profits.
I have always said no, but this is another way upwork may have an impersonation problem. Using accounts with a great track record, then selling the login information to someone else to pretend to be them. Then when you hire someone, it isn't actually them.
I have always said no, but this is another way upwork may have an impersonation problem. Using accounts with a great track record, then selling the login information to someone else to pretend to be them. Then when you hire someone, it isn't actually them.
Oh god, I can't even read that page because of the amount of eye-watering green.
Brings back fond memories of MySpace and the garish themes therein.
<F9> in Firefox.
At least it's not eye-watering green and a Medium paywall!
One simple way would be require video submission where you have to speak your name and mention that you have joined upwork as a freelancer. But then upwork would have to spend more money on validations. They probably don't care as much.
I sometimes hire from upwork. My litmus test is simple. I want to talk to you for 5-10 mins on video. If you cannot show up or have issues doing a video meeting, I won't proceed. It may help getting rid of scammers who are hiding behind a fake profile. I remember one guy telling me that he has speech issues and can only "interact" through messages/email. Even if true, I cannot trust someone on the internet like that.
I sometimes hire from upwork. My litmus test is simple. I want to talk to you for 5-10 mins on video. If you cannot show up or have issues doing a video meeting, I won't proceed. It may help getting rid of scammers who are hiding behind a fake profile. I remember one guy telling me that he has speech issues and can only "interact" through messages/email. Even if true, I cannot trust someone on the internet like that.
According to Upwork support, they do something like this before a contract is actually signed. But in my opinion that's way too late in the process - someone impersonating me could completely ruin my reputation before any contract is handed out
I did one gig on Upwork and at no point I went through a process like that. The client invited me to their Slack, we discussed some more then they accepted the proposal and I did the work. At no point I had to do a video verification step with Upwork itself.
We have one (or more) people posting ads impersonating us hiring translators on Upwork and in Facebook groups. The scam seems to be they "hire" the person, give them work, and then never pay them.
Having zero cost of goods sold makes it possible to undercut on prices and pay for all your acquisition and still make a buck. Doesn't seem scalable or sustainable, but it has been a real nuisance for us. Translators are contacting us for their payment...
Upwork has not been willing to help us at all. They pull the ads quickly so by the time support clicks the link, the ad is down. They act as if it didn't happen if the link doesn't still work. Crazy.
There is a lot of fraud out there. Anything you can imagine and then quite a bit you can't if you don't spend your time thinking about how to screw others.
Having zero cost of goods sold makes it possible to undercut on prices and pay for all your acquisition and still make a buck. Doesn't seem scalable or sustainable, but it has been a real nuisance for us. Translators are contacting us for their payment...
Upwork has not been willing to help us at all. They pull the ads quickly so by the time support clicks the link, the ad is down. They act as if it didn't happen if the link doesn't still work. Crazy.
There is a lot of fraud out there. Anything you can imagine and then quite a bit you can't if you don't spend your time thinking about how to screw others.
I deleted my LinkedIn, it’s a source of information that the general public doesn’t need to see. I don’t want to broadcast my employment history to the world.
I think the value of LinkedIn is diminishing and will continue to decline.
I think the value of LinkedIn is diminishing and will continue to decline.
It's been around for 20 years or so, never had any real strong value, but they keep trying.
If I want to get in touch with someone I worked with ages ago, LinkedIn is still a good way, or even the only way. The value will decline if people stop adding contacts when they meet new people. Is that happening?
If I want to get in touch with someone I worked with ages ago, LinkedIn is still a good way, or even the only way. The value will decline if people stop adding contacts when they meet new people. Is that happening?
> I think the value of LinkedIn is diminishing and will continue to decline.
I don't see how that would be the case, it's the de-facto rolodex for your work-circle and I don't think I know any alternative that is getting popular.
I don't see how that would be the case, it's the de-facto rolodex for your work-circle and I don't think I know any alternative that is getting popular.
I think it's value is you are able to be found be those looking to employ you. If you don't want to be offered employment, I don't see a point in having a LinkedIn - a resume does just fine when you are looking.
But this goes towards the GPs post, it is public information. I also deleted my LinkedIn awhile ago. In my opinion a company or person should only be given my CV when I offer it to them.
In terms of a work-circle rolodex, this is odd to me. If I want to keep in contact with the person in the future I will have their personal contact info and keep in touch, otherwise not.
But this goes towards the GPs post, it is public information. I also deleted my LinkedIn awhile ago. In my opinion a company or person should only be given my CV when I offer it to them.
In terms of a work-circle rolodex, this is odd to me. If I want to keep in contact with the person in the future I will have their personal contact info and keep in touch, otherwise not.
Consider that not all of us mind sharing their CVs to the world. The potential for harm is quite low, and there are meaningful upsides.
See https://read.cv/ for a viable alternative.
It’s a trade-off for me. There is value in being visible to recruiters, but I’m not too comfortable with so much of my personal information being available for easy perusal.
I was just emailed by a "client" asking me why my responses on Upwork had such poor English when I've written multiple books...
Turns out that someone was impersonating me on Upwork.
I now have a call with a potential real client next week.
I feel like I need to go cybersquat my identity everywhere now.
Turns out that someone was impersonating me on Upwork.
I now have a call with a potential real client next week.
I feel like I need to go cybersquat my identity everywhere now.
I am not affiliated with it at all, but I am considering using a service like https://www.idcheck.io/ for my own business. Sure there are a lot of users that find such things invasive, but I have had a lot of our users ask for stronger user verification. It would be a great solution to Musk's bot problem with Twitter. Anyone have experience with such a service?
At 2 euros per identification I can probably tell you why Twitter doesn't use it for their 330 million MAU.
It's a huge problem on some large dev slacks I am part of and one I used to help run. Someone will join and DM every existing member with a sob story about how he cannot join upwork because of his country of origin and asking to use theirs in exchange for 10% of profits he makes.
Not sure if anyone actually responds positively to these DMs but I guess if they do it feeds into the same scam.
Not sure if anyone actually responds positively to these DMs but I guess if they do it feeds into the same scam.
What’s the best course of action for you/the person being impersonated, if the platform doesn’t fix the (systemic) problem? Put up a big notice on LinkedIn declaring that you are not on these platforms?
Yea that's pretty much what I did...I added a note to my "headline" on LinkedIn saying if you found me on Upwork, it's not actually me
always make sure the upwork profile has a blue check mark ( freelancer's identity has been verified )
I remember trying to hire an iOS developer on Upwork, and got an American developer to bid on the project that seemed too good to be true. Turned out he was, and it was a fake profile. Figured it out only after agreeing on payment and about to start work, before realizing something was off. Contacted Upwork and they took profile down.
The root of the problem is that you uploaded an image of your face on Upwork. Somebody discovering how to use your own data against you, is just a matter of time.
How do I check if my identity is being used on Upwork? Can I see the names of people there without being registered?
> As engineers we really have no recourse.
Upwork takes a commission, so they are benefitting financially from this fraud. You absolutely have recourse.
Upwork takes a commission, so they are benefitting financially from this fraud. You absolutely have recourse.
Upwork is relying on the fact that all parties involved likely don't have the funds or care enough to pursue them legally. Given that they can define what options are available as far as recourse.
99% of the work offers I receive on Upwork are fake/spam/"contact me outside of this website" kind of deals.
I got burned by something like this.
I hired an editor (not on Upwork) who had worked for a number of very famous authors (people you've heard of, people who've sold millions of copies). They did a fantastic sample edit, and the quality of the work dropped off precipitously by about the 20% point of the manuscript. The best-case scenario is that they just didn't care, because I'm a nobody and because of the novel's length--over 250K words, so self-publishing is the only option. However, there's a lot of forensic evidence suggesting that they farmed the edit out to more than one person (which would explain the inconsistent apparent level of skill and care). So I started looking into this, and apparently this is a common practice. Being traditionally published won't necessarily help you; the big houses contract out most of their editing work, and the same thing can happen.
Software might have the opposite problem from fiction editing, though. With editing, the issue is that the money (at all stages) is so poor--the average novel only sells a couple thousand copies--that I imagine a lot of people feel they have to do this sort of thing to survive. In software, these problems tend to involve there being far too much money at stake.
I hired an editor (not on Upwork) who had worked for a number of very famous authors (people you've heard of, people who've sold millions of copies). They did a fantastic sample edit, and the quality of the work dropped off precipitously by about the 20% point of the manuscript. The best-case scenario is that they just didn't care, because I'm a nobody and because of the novel's length--over 250K words, so self-publishing is the only option. However, there's a lot of forensic evidence suggesting that they farmed the edit out to more than one person (which would explain the inconsistent apparent level of skill and care). So I started looking into this, and apparently this is a common practice. Being traditionally published won't necessarily help you; the big houses contract out most of their editing work, and the same thing can happen.
Software might have the opposite problem from fiction editing, though. With editing, the issue is that the money (at all stages) is so poor--the average novel only sells a couple thousand copies--that I imagine a lot of people feel they have to do this sort of thing to survive. In software, these problems tend to involve there being far too much money at stake.
The term of art for this process from the MBA side is "Extracting the value from the brand". The editor developed the reputation for good work, which had some value. Now they're cashing in by selling the brand attached to poor work. The reputation is decaying at some rate, but slower than the editor is extracting money.
Notice, for example, you're not helping it decay, your story can't be tied to the bad actor. You have good reasons for this, but it's why the scam works.
The key correlate to understand from "Extracting value from the brand" is that when the process is complete, there is no value left in the brand. It's explicitly setting up a con, defecting from the iterated prisoner's dilemma. Lying with more words.
My favorite examples of this pattern are from other areas of endeavor: Kitchen Aid mixers, which used to be an industrial quality offshoot of Hobart and now is trash; and Singer, which used to be a superb sewing machine, and now is trash.
But you can see the pattern in many places.
Notice, for example, you're not helping it decay, your story can't be tied to the bad actor. You have good reasons for this, but it's why the scam works.
The key correlate to understand from "Extracting value from the brand" is that when the process is complete, there is no value left in the brand. It's explicitly setting up a con, defecting from the iterated prisoner's dilemma. Lying with more words.
My favorite examples of this pattern are from other areas of endeavor: Kitchen Aid mixers, which used to be an industrial quality offshoot of Hobart and now is trash; and Singer, which used to be a superb sewing machine, and now is trash.
But you can see the pattern in many places.
I have a KitchenAid stand mixer and it's just fine. All the attachments work as expected and the motor runs smoothly after hundreds of uses.
> However, there's a lot of forensic evidence suggesting that they farmed the edit out to more than one person (which would explain the inconsistent apparent level of skill and care).
I'm sorry about your experience.
But you might be interested in knowing that that phenomenon goes way back -- a lot of the "old masters" paintings were done by apprentice artists working under some level of supervision from the "named" painters. And I'm talking about really famous painters like Rembrandt or Reubens.
Also quite a few of the most prolific contemporary mass market authors have "assistants.
I'm sorry about your experience.
But you might be interested in knowing that that phenomenon goes way back -- a lot of the "old masters" paintings were done by apprentice artists working under some level of supervision from the "named" painters. And I'm talking about really famous painters like Rembrandt or Reubens.
Also quite a few of the most prolific contemporary mass market authors have "assistants.
It's also literally the modus operandi of every consulting firm ever; bring in the A team to sell and seal the deal, and then farm it off to the lowest possible team they can find.
Moreso for enterprise software. Often the "farming off" is to developers in another, poorer, country.
> Also quite a few of the most prolific contemporary mass market authors have "assistants".
I told my new editor what I paid to hire the big-name editor and she said, "You could've gotten a book [as in a ghostwriter] for that."
And yeah, I'm well aware of the authors who farm out their names. If you're writing formulaic commercial work, why not? I don't begrudge their existing; I just wish they didn't take up so much marketing and publicity oxygen (but, on the other hand, if the commercial hacks weren't using that up, it'd go to overconnected MFA "literary" hacks, so... no worse for it?)
I told my new editor what I paid to hire the big-name editor and she said, "You could've gotten a book [as in a ghostwriter] for that."
And yeah, I'm well aware of the authors who farm out their names. If you're writing formulaic commercial work, why not? I don't begrudge their existing; I just wish they didn't take up so much marketing and publicity oxygen (but, on the other hand, if the commercial hacks weren't using that up, it'd go to overconnected MFA "literary" hacks, so... no worse for it?)
zttg(3)
I had never setup an Upwork profile before so I said no, after which they responded with a link to a profile of someone that was completely impersonating me. They had scraped my LinkedIn page for information and were interviewing under the guise of being someone they were not (they were even using my picture). I talked to Upwork support, and after about 36 hours they deleted the impersonator. However, I just did another search and there is already someone else impersonating me again (this time they changed the face on the picture).
I only discovered this because the first impersonator was too lazy to change my resume they downloaded from my website and kept my real email on it, so some companies had used that email to contact me instead of their Upwork registered email.
I would recommend everyone search for their name on Upwork (I had to wrap mine in quotes to find the matches) and make sure they aren't being impersonated.
In the meantime, Upwork really needs a better validation mechanism. As engineers we really have no recourse, and there is absolutely nothing we can do to prevent this from happening.