Windows needs a change in priorities(den.dev)
den.dev
Windows needs a change in priorities
https://den.dev/blog/windows-priority-shuffle/
883 comments
From my POV it has come to a time where the tradeoffs you make switching to Linux (xubuntu in my case) are worth it.
A few days ago I had to do some helpdesk for a friend with windows 10. We suspected that one of his three drives failed, and windows just refused to start up, so I wanted to jump into recovery/safe mode and take a look.
But for doing so you need to go through a ridiculous lenght rebooting the PC multiple times and go through a bunch of sub menus. I tried but it didn't work, so we unplugged the hd we suspected it was failing and used my linux laptop with an external hd case to diagnose it.
I have a w10 corporate version in a pc, and it works kid of fine. I had to install windows 10 home to a laptop recebtly and everything feels like an abuse.
If I have to fight with a system more than I fight with linux, with it's drivers issues and the problems that I can't fix without googling as I'm not intimate with the SO, what's the point?
Its just too much effort.
A few days ago I had to do some helpdesk for a friend with windows 10. We suspected that one of his three drives failed, and windows just refused to start up, so I wanted to jump into recovery/safe mode and take a look.
But for doing so you need to go through a ridiculous lenght rebooting the PC multiple times and go through a bunch of sub menus. I tried but it didn't work, so we unplugged the hd we suspected it was failing and used my linux laptop with an external hd case to diagnose it.
I have a w10 corporate version in a pc, and it works kid of fine. I had to install windows 10 home to a laptop recebtly and everything feels like an abuse.
If I have to fight with a system more than I fight with linux, with it's drivers issues and the problems that I can't fix without googling as I'm not intimate with the SO, what's the point?
Its just too much effort.
"If I have to fight with a system more than I fight with linux, with it's drivers issues and the problems that I can't fix without googling as I'm not intimate with the SO, what's the point?"
Linux with universal good drivers, is probably what most of us would want and need.
(except for the lucky few, who never had an issue)
Linux with universal good drivers, is probably what most of us would want and need.
(except for the lucky few, who never had an issue)
Are you complaining about missing drivers in Linux? For the life of me, I never had to install any particular driver since like 2010 on both laptops and workstations. Not even for printers.
Specialized audio/video equipment? Probably, and of course the vendor will only provide them for Windows.
Specialized audio/video equipment? Probably, and of course the vendor will only provide them for Windows.
I've had light issues on every new PC I've had in the past 5 years. Be it the sound card, or the WiFi, or the NIC, or suspend / sleep. I will state all the issues were usually fixed in 6 months to a year as new kernels with improved drivers were released. So Linux on bleeding edge hardware is usually so so. (My TR workstation wouldn't even boot Linux without a specially compiled kernel and some boot parameters when it came out).
But if your hardware is over a year old, the Linux experience tends to be rock solid.
But if your hardware is over a year old, the Linux experience tends to be rock solid.
"Are you complaining about missing drivers in Linux? For the life of me, I never had to install any particular driver since like 2010 on both laptops and workstations. Not even for printers."
Yeah well, then you are among the lucky few, or you are not aware of the difference a good driver makes.
Right now I cannot get my linux workstation to do screencasting with hardware encoding(with OBS). On windows no problem.
And the laptops. On ALL my laptops I owned (6+) I tried linux, but experience was always worse, or even impossible. That includes tweaking, messing with grub, tlp and and in one instance even compiling the kernel. Still way worse battery life, performance, standby resume issues, freezes and dont get me started about touchscreen. I hate windows. But I have work to do.
Yeah well, then you are among the lucky few, or you are not aware of the difference a good driver makes.
Right now I cannot get my linux workstation to do screencasting with hardware encoding(with OBS). On windows no problem.
And the laptops. On ALL my laptops I owned (6+) I tried linux, but experience was always worse, or even impossible. That includes tweaking, messing with grub, tlp and and in one instance even compiling the kernel. Still way worse battery life, performance, standby resume issues, freezes and dont get me started about touchscreen. I hate windows. But I have work to do.
HP Envy x360 2021 AMD Ryzen 5700U
Needs a touchpad driver on both Fedora and Pop?_OS, I'm not sure if this is still true or not. I don't really care, since I can fix this.
I use all the major operating systems.
Needs a touchpad driver on both Fedora and Pop?_OS, I'm not sure if this is still true or not. I don't really care, since I can fix this.
I use all the major operating systems.
Linux is better, but still a pain if You have to spin up a VM every time You need to do Excel or Photoshop. Added: also as Linus said: f*k you NVidia!
Try Manjaro with KDE.
Manjaro is way better than Ubuntu; KDE is way better than Xfce.
Manjaro is way better than Ubuntu; KDE is way better than Xfce.
Try debian with i3.
Debian is way better than Manjaro; i3 is way better than KDE.
Debian is way better than Manjaro; i3 is way better than KDE.
Try Pop!_OS with Gnome.
Pop!_OS is way better than Debian; Gnome is way better than i3.
Pop!_OS is way better than Debian; Gnome is way better than i3.
I would like to see this thread continue ad infinitum
Debian is best but only if you install it text-only and then build CDE from source and use dtlogin for the front end.
Nobody at Microsoft who has decision-making authority actually cares.
Acknowledging this is the first step. The second is figuring out what would make them care or how to remove them so someone who does care can take over. That's a much harder thing to do.
Realistically Microsoft is in a similar position to the likes of Google and Facebook. They have such an entrenched monopoly, bought through years of ignored warnings and developing monoculture, that they can continue to be successful in a financial sense in spite of their actions rather than because of them.
Until there is a credible challenger for the desktop OS market, a market that is itself evolving as other types of device now appeal to users who might have primarily used a desktop/laptop a few years ago, it is difficult to see how that changes. And the market is probably shrinking for desktop users who aren't in large organisations running "enterprise" software, with casual home users often preferring mobile devices and games consoles to a full PC now (though perhaps less so in light of recent world events and wanting to do more from home). So where is the serious competitor going to come from? I can think of a few at least slightly plausible scenarios but whether most of them would lead to anything less user-hostile than modern Windows is a different question.
Acknowledging this is the first step. The second is figuring out what would make them care or how to remove them so someone who does care can take over. That's a much harder thing to do.
Realistically Microsoft is in a similar position to the likes of Google and Facebook. They have such an entrenched monopoly, bought through years of ignored warnings and developing monoculture, that they can continue to be successful in a financial sense in spite of their actions rather than because of them.
Until there is a credible challenger for the desktop OS market, a market that is itself evolving as other types of device now appeal to users who might have primarily used a desktop/laptop a few years ago, it is difficult to see how that changes. And the market is probably shrinking for desktop users who aren't in large organisations running "enterprise" software, with casual home users often preferring mobile devices and games consoles to a full PC now (though perhaps less so in light of recent world events and wanting to do more from home). So where is the serious competitor going to come from? I can think of a few at least slightly plausible scenarios but whether most of them would lead to anything less user-hostile than modern Windows is a different question.
What is wrong with Linux nowadays? I've used it as my main driver for long enough that I can't see the big problems that are preventing everyone from switching. Like, it seems easier than even WSL to me. Beginner friendly distos seem to have solved the package management problem, and there are adequate desktop environments, office suites, browsers, gaming, and everything else. If a person has good hardware compatibility, in the face of the bloated pushyess of Windows 11, why not use Linux? What am I missing?
>What is wrong with Linux nowadays?
Linux is great for doing things on your own. Where it fails is when you have to sync up with other people's proprietary norms.
For example, I'm a researcher who gets funding from the US government. I can do my day-to-day technical work in Linux. But I'm forced to still use Windows to present PowerPoint slides over Teams to my funding overlords, because that's what they use, and I have to conform to that. Linux ports/knock-offs of those products just don't interoperate with proprietary MS systems well enough for me to rely on them. Unless the US government (or at least the relevant parts I deal with) ditches Microsoft products, I have to keep a foot in MS-land to carry out the accountability parts of my job.
Linux is great for doing things on your own. Where it fails is when you have to sync up with other people's proprietary norms.
For example, I'm a researcher who gets funding from the US government. I can do my day-to-day technical work in Linux. But I'm forced to still use Windows to present PowerPoint slides over Teams to my funding overlords, because that's what they use, and I have to conform to that. Linux ports/knock-offs of those products just don't interoperate with proprietary MS systems well enough for me to rely on them. Unless the US government (or at least the relevant parts I deal with) ditches Microsoft products, I have to keep a foot in MS-land to carry out the accountability parts of my job.
Can you use the online version of PowerPoint and Teams? If not, what is causing the issues?
Beginner friendly distos seem to have solved the package management problem, and there are adequate desktop environments, office suites, browsers, gaming, and everything else.
But for professional use "adequate" doesn't cut it. Professionals need "good" and judge that by the standards of what is available on other platforms. 95% compatibility with the industry standard doesn't cut it. 80% of the features working at least 90% of the time doesn't cut it. Free instead of paying a few hundred bucks for the extra percentage points isn't even a question worth asking from a business perspective.
Linux has great software, sometimes the best available on any platform, in certain areas. Developer tools is an obvious one. Servers is another. Some of the multimedia stuff is good. The picture for running games is getting better all the time even if most of them are still ports of some kind rather than truly native applications.
But as much as I hate to say it, the reality is that in most areas that most users are going to care about the Linux ecosystem is still lacking in both quality and quantity. I'd bet on the evolution of web technology disrupting Windows long before the Linux desktop does. But that is hardly a solution to the phone-home and forced-update problems that a lot of us don't like about modern Windows.
But for professional use "adequate" doesn't cut it. Professionals need "good" and judge that by the standards of what is available on other platforms. 95% compatibility with the industry standard doesn't cut it. 80% of the features working at least 90% of the time doesn't cut it. Free instead of paying a few hundred bucks for the extra percentage points isn't even a question worth asking from a business perspective.
Linux has great software, sometimes the best available on any platform, in certain areas. Developer tools is an obvious one. Servers is another. Some of the multimedia stuff is good. The picture for running games is getting better all the time even if most of them are still ports of some kind rather than truly native applications.
But as much as I hate to say it, the reality is that in most areas that most users are going to care about the Linux ecosystem is still lacking in both quality and quantity. I'd bet on the evolution of web technology disrupting Windows long before the Linux desktop does. But that is hardly a solution to the phone-home and forced-update problems that a lot of us don't like about modern Windows.
> But for professional use "adequate" doesn't cut it.
However bad Linux is at package management, Windows is even worse. So I'm not sure how your argument convinces people that Windows package managers are superior?
However bad Linux is at package management, Windows is even worse. So I'm not sure how your argument convinces people that Windows package managers are superior?
Most business software can be installed by the network admins, software that can't doesn't matter for a lot of these companies and just won't be used. Even in my smaller but rapidly growing company they are doing more to restrict what software can be installed. Easy install of packages isn't what a large company wants
I didn't say anything about package managers. What counts is the software that is available. The best package manager in the world isn't worth anything if it doesn't have the packages that you need.
This article has a laundry list of things that annoyed the heck out of me. So I decided to try and dual boot to Ubuntu on my Surface Pro 7.
This may come across as a rant, but I do not mean it that way. I know the tears and sweat people have pored it into this. Anyway, here is the list of things that I found are broken:
- HDPI monitor support is BAD. Unity cannot do fractional scaling, resulting in perfect fonts on the menu, but such poor fonts in firefox that my eyes started to hurt.
- The SurfaceLinux sub-reddit seemed to suggest KDE/Plasma is better at this, which it is. I am trying this as my daily driver. The LTS version is still on X11, which means a common app like Obisdian.md actually caused the system to go to swap; I am still trying to figure out if this is the culprit.
- Trying Plasma on Wayland caused the system to hang. Fair enough, this is still under development.
- KDE minimal install, in its infinite wisdom, does not include the network manager applet. It is 2022, do you think users will not want to connect to wifi?
- Each time I switch from clamshell mode to multi-monitor, I need to reset the layout of the widgets on my desktop.
- Another easter egg in fractional scaling; the size of the cursor changes when you hover over certain windows or the task manager panel. I am not as familiar with the Linux ecosystem as I used to be, so I am not sure why this happens.
- Abandoning all hope of legible, anti-aliased fonts, I have tried to increase the font size across the system and in certain apps like Firefox and VS Code. You should see some of the hilariously bad KDE setting screens that cannot work with a font size of 16px (the default is 12px).
- SDDM seems to think I want an onscreen virtual keyboard even though I have a keyboard attached. It literally does not show me the login screen. I have to blindly tap in my password making sure focus is not lost on that box lest I never be able to login.
- Every time firefox starts the application renders like there is a rift in reality in the left bottom corner of screen. A forced maximize fixes this, but still.
I love my Wobbly Windows. I so want it to succeed. But architecturally, something just feels broken. The split between a display manager, a window manager and a compositor just means that instead of having to worry about one thing to make sure I have a working display, I need to worry about three things.
This may come across as a rant, but I do not mean it that way. I know the tears and sweat people have pored it into this. Anyway, here is the list of things that I found are broken:
- HDPI monitor support is BAD. Unity cannot do fractional scaling, resulting in perfect fonts on the menu, but such poor fonts in firefox that my eyes started to hurt.
- The SurfaceLinux sub-reddit seemed to suggest KDE/Plasma is better at this, which it is. I am trying this as my daily driver. The LTS version is still on X11, which means a common app like Obisdian.md actually caused the system to go to swap; I am still trying to figure out if this is the culprit.
- Trying Plasma on Wayland caused the system to hang. Fair enough, this is still under development.
- KDE minimal install, in its infinite wisdom, does not include the network manager applet. It is 2022, do you think users will not want to connect to wifi?
- Each time I switch from clamshell mode to multi-monitor, I need to reset the layout of the widgets on my desktop.
- Another easter egg in fractional scaling; the size of the cursor changes when you hover over certain windows or the task manager panel. I am not as familiar with the Linux ecosystem as I used to be, so I am not sure why this happens.
- Abandoning all hope of legible, anti-aliased fonts, I have tried to increase the font size across the system and in certain apps like Firefox and VS Code. You should see some of the hilariously bad KDE setting screens that cannot work with a font size of 16px (the default is 12px).
- SDDM seems to think I want an onscreen virtual keyboard even though I have a keyboard attached. It literally does not show me the login screen. I have to blindly tap in my password making sure focus is not lost on that box lest I never be able to login.
- Every time firefox starts the application renders like there is a rift in reality in the left bottom corner of screen. A forced maximize fixes this, but still.
I love my Wobbly Windows. I so want it to succeed. But architecturally, something just feels broken. The split between a display manager, a window manager and a compositor just means that instead of having to worry about one thing to make sure I have a working display, I need to worry about three things.
I still run Unity on a bunch of machines here, but it's old now and starting to bitrot. I haven't even tried on the 1 or 2 boxes that have hi-DPI displays: it's not worth it.
On non-*buntu distros, I use Xfce. It can't do fractional scaling.
Only a handful of desktops support it. From my research, I found 3:
• GNOME Shell. No thank you.
• KDE 5. Better, but still a no thank you from me.
• Cinnamon.
I looked at Cinnamon on Ubuntu and Debian, but the versions are quite out of date (Cinnamon 4.8.x). I wanted the latest 5.x series, and that means Linux Mint, the parent distro of Cinnamon.
So I now have a box with Mint 20.3 and a Liquorix kernel. It works well, it natively can mount my NTFS partition with the in-kernel driver and understand a Core i5 11th-gen GPU.
Cinnamon is a little clunky and a little hard to customise, but it does actually work in the way I broadly expect and can put up with, unlike either GNOME 3 or KDE 5.
On non-*buntu distros, I use Xfce. It can't do fractional scaling.
Only a handful of desktops support it. From my research, I found 3:
• GNOME Shell. No thank you.
• KDE 5. Better, but still a no thank you from me.
• Cinnamon.
I looked at Cinnamon on Ubuntu and Debian, but the versions are quite out of date (Cinnamon 4.8.x). I wanted the latest 5.x series, and that means Linux Mint, the parent distro of Cinnamon.
So I now have a box with Mint 20.3 and a Liquorix kernel. It works well, it natively can mount my NTFS partition with the in-kernel driver and understand a Core i5 11th-gen GPU.
Cinnamon is a little clunky and a little hard to customise, but it does actually work in the way I broadly expect and can put up with, unlike either GNOME 3 or KDE 5.
Ubuntu Unity the desktop environment Ubuntu abandoned back in 18.04? On X11 with Gnome 3 with Ubuntu 20.04 it does actually support fractional scaling and if IIRC does it in a somewhat similar way to MacOS where it scales up the res*2 then downscales it. For whatever reason either GNOME didn't accept Ubuntu's changes or they didn't submit them upstream so it doesn't work in any other distro for GNOME 3. It actually works pretty well IME. It possible to mimic it with the right call to xrandr in other DEs.
Lol. I have similar annoyances on mac but my linux is fine. At least i can do something about it on linux.
There's a lot of software not on Linux or that doesn't run well on Linux.
People pick their OS based on what software they want to run, not the other way around. And they pick from what they can buy. Go into a BestBuy and you can choose between Windows machines, Apple machines, and a few Chromebooks.
If you did manage to buy a Linux machine somewhere, you are going to be disappointed when you go back into that BestBuy to get a printer or webcam or some other accessory and the box says "compatible with macOS and Windows".
People pick their OS based on what software they want to run, not the other way around. And they pick from what they can buy. Go into a BestBuy and you can choose between Windows machines, Apple machines, and a few Chromebooks.
If you did manage to buy a Linux machine somewhere, you are going to be disappointed when you go back into that BestBuy to get a printer or webcam or some other accessory and the box says "compatible with macOS and Windows".
Ironically, printers are now easier to get working on Linux than they are on Windows. The whole no-driver setup in the unix world murders the "must install this driver and possibly restart" shenanigans on Windows.
I was quite surprised when I switched my main dev machine to Linux and the printer not only appeared by itself, but worked out of the box.
I was quite surprised when I switched my main dev machine to Linux and the printer not only appeared by itself, but worked out of the box.
But the issue here is not inherently with Linux. It is more so with vendors of printers making drivers. If Brother feels that there are enough people running Linux and want to own a Brother printer, they will make the driver. Maybe that is the issue we need solve, or at least the part we need to be vocal about. If brother gets a significant number of emails asking for linux support, perhaps they will finally make linux a first class citizen?
I think it's interesting you chose Brother here, because Linux support is a first class citizen -- they not only offer CUPS drivers, they offer Deb and RPM packages that also set up dependencies.
I just picked the first vendor off the top of my head and Brother came to mind. Feel free to replace it with any other vendor/manufacturer. In no way is it meant to single out brother as being poor on Linux.
> But the issue here is not inherently with Linux. It is more so with vendors of printers making drivers.
Users don't care. For them things either work or not. Users are not going to e-mail Brother or Nvidia or Microsoft to fix their issues with printers, video cards or Onedrive. How is that so hard to understand?
Users don't care. For them things either work or not. Users are not going to e-mail Brother or Nvidia or Microsoft to fix their issues with printers, video cards or Onedrive. How is that so hard to understand?
If the vendors got metrics that showed that desktop linux user share was enough and viable enough, they would. The issue is, Linux users are a small share of the desktop market. But, if that number grew, it changes. Hardware vendors would port their drivers over once the potential revenue of customers on a different platform outweighs the cost in doing so. Otherwise, I don't think Brother or Nvidia really give a damn if an end user is running Windows or Linux, they just care that enough of those user exists in their respective ecosystem to justify the engineering costs.
This is true, but still - people want to print documents. They don't want to run Linux (or Windows). If they can't print documents, that's a problem.
The solution was Google Cloud Print, IMO. That was a great idea. Who cares what you run, as long as it can connect to the internet you can print. I don't know how in-depth it got with the various crazy menu systems
The solution was Google Cloud Print, IMO. That was a great idea. Who cares what you run, as long as it can connect to the internet you can print. I don't know how in-depth it got with the various crazy menu systems
That brings up an excellent point. Services like these start to eventually render driver support useless. I haven't heard of Google cloud print, but I just looked it up. Even though it looks to be EOLed, there are alternatives still going, just not from google. My HP printer has an app. I can push documents to the app that goes up to HP then comes back down on to my printer, if I have my printer configured with that. I think my last printer, which was a bother had something similar where I could set it up on my home network in such a way that I can just email a document to a special bother email address which then prints it out on the brother printer.
With Linux while sitting idle my laptop burns battery about twice as fast as it does on Windows while I go about my normal workflow. This is a laptop which is certified for both Fedora and Ubuntu.
Depends on the model and the up-to-dateness of its firmware.
My main travel laptop is still an old Thinkpad X220, because of the great keyboard.
It lasts considerably longer on Ubuntu 20.04 than in Windows 10 $LATEST. In Windows, it runs too hot to have on my lap, and the fans run constantly.
In Ubuntu, it runs cool and I rarely hear the fan at all.
Check your firmware is current: that's step 1.
My main travel laptop is still an old Thinkpad X220, because of the great keyboard.
It lasts considerably longer on Ubuntu 20.04 than in Windows 10 $LATEST. In Windows, it runs too hot to have on my lap, and the fans run constantly.
In Ubuntu, it runs cool and I rarely hear the fan at all.
Check your firmware is current: that's step 1.
I've been wondering about that as well, never found a comprehensive answer to why is the difference so stark. I'd be willing to use Linux on my laptop when the difference would be 10-12%, but as of now I just can't. I have laptop because I need to use it on the go and linux makes it harder for me.
Using auto-cpufreq or other cpu frequency scaling services can make my laptop run way longer than with windows.
Installation is utterly broken and hopeless on Linux. Let's not pretend like it's in any way ready for the general consumer. Including Ubuntu, the "flagship" poster boy for widescale adoption of Linux.
We're more likely to see people going back to dumb-terminals with GUIs being streamed to their ChromeOS from a server running linux than we are to see people using Linux.
We're more likely to see people going back to dumb-terminals with GUIs being streamed to their ChromeOS from a server running linux than we are to see people using Linux.
What part of installation is broken? It's literally a GUI that you can click "continue" on until you get to the pretty looking progress bar.
Application installation is broken. If software isn't hand-curated in the distro's repository and kept up to date by someone, then get ready to set up a dev environment and compile from source. Hopefully you will not break your entire system trying to cater to whims of whatever insane build environment it uses. This includes new versions that no one has got around to packaging yet.
AppImage and Flatpak are making inroads to eliminating this foolishness, but I still routinely run into software that isn't yet on board with that.
AppImage and Flatpak are making inroads to eliminating this foolishness, but I still routinely run into software that isn't yet on board with that.
This reads like a comment from Slashdot, circa '97. If you have a "toxic" relationship with inept/malicious application software, break ties with it now just as you should from Microsoft.
Even under your rare worst-case scenario, recovery has never been easier with "live" flash drives. No need to live in fear of breaking something.
Even under your rare worst-case scenario, recovery has never been easier with "live" flash drives. No need to live in fear of breaking something.
> This reads like a comment from Slashdot, circa '97
Sadly, while some parts of the Linux Desktop have come a long way since the 90s, many others have not.
> If you have a "toxic" relationship with inept/malicious application software, break ties with it now just as you should from Microsoft.
Presumably people use software to do something, and many times there simply isn't alternative software that does what you want to do and you're stuck with it even though it is toxic.
> Even under your rare worst-case scenario, recovery has never been easier with "live" flash drives. No need to live in fear of breaking something.
Here's something else you might have read on Slashdot in 97 that's still applicable today: "Linux is free only if your time isn't worth anything". My fear isn't losing data or being unable to get back to the working state, it's the time I lose having to go through the effort of doing that when the simple case of just installing a goddamned application shouldn't be such a pain in the first place.
Sadly, while some parts of the Linux Desktop have come a long way since the 90s, many others have not.
> If you have a "toxic" relationship with inept/malicious application software, break ties with it now just as you should from Microsoft.
Presumably people use software to do something, and many times there simply isn't alternative software that does what you want to do and you're stuck with it even though it is toxic.
> Even under your rare worst-case scenario, recovery has never been easier with "live" flash drives. No need to live in fear of breaking something.
Here's something else you might have read on Slashdot in 97 that's still applicable today: "Linux is free only if your time isn't worth anything". My fear isn't losing data or being unable to get back to the working state, it's the time I lose having to go through the effort of doing that when the simple case of just installing a goddamned application shouldn't be such a pain in the first place.
>Here's something else you might have read on Slashdot in 97 that's still applicable today: "Linux is free only if your time isn't worth anything". My fear isn't losing data or being unable to get back to the working state, it's the time I lose having to go through the effort of doing that when the simple case of just installing a goddamned application shouldn't be such a pain in the first place.
I am a long time windows user who recently switched to PopOS.I'll say its getting better. This was one thing I was worried about switch back to linux. After I got fed up with what Microsoft is doing with Windows 11, I decided I had it and switched. So far it has not been as a pain in the ass as much as it used to be. There are a few things I still have to tweak to get my work flow back to the way it was on Windows.
I am a long time windows user who recently switched to PopOS.I'll say its getting better. This was one thing I was worried about switch back to linux. After I got fed up with what Microsoft is doing with Windows 11, I decided I had it and switched. So far it has not been as a pain in the ass as much as it used to be. There are a few things I still have to tweak to get my work flow back to the way it was on Windows.
This describes Windows as well though, just read all the complaints from the original article and thread. Sadly there is no decent OS any longer, they all had/have their flaws and now they are being dumbed down and control taken away.
You'll find no argument from me on that score. It's just a matter of which is the least suck for any given person's needs at this point.
MS Office. That's it. That's the reason I went with a Mac instead.
Nobody is kicking MS off of that pedestal, and unless we get some significant anti-trust legislation, we aren't getting that on Linux.
Nobody is kicking MS off of that pedestal, and unless we get some significant anti-trust legislation, we aren't getting that on Linux.
I was a Linux network admin FOR the US Government, in a datacenter, and had to use Windows.
Loss of familiarity - “where’s my cheese gone?!” - seems likely
As a developer I want to implement everything possible on the web platform.
It's now a viable competitor for enterprise applications, both because web is getting more feature rich and these days has pretty much anything you need, and because desktop is getting worse with anti-features and jank. It's a sad state of affairs but that's where we are.
As a user I want to use cross platform applications as much as possible. I use e.g. libreoffice instead of ms office now by choice. This means that the eventual switch away from it will be easier.
It's now a viable competitor for enterprise applications, both because web is getting more feature rich and these days has pretty much anything you need, and because desktop is getting worse with anti-features and jank. It's a sad state of affairs but that's where we are.
As a user I want to use cross platform applications as much as possible. I use e.g. libreoffice instead of ms office now by choice. This means that the eventual switch away from it will be easier.
Microsoft don't help themselves by making desktop app production very confusing. A huge range of possible GUI frameworks, every one looks like a trap/dead end like Silverlight.
Microsofts successful cross platform apps like VSCode and Teams ignore all of them so following suit seems pretty sensible to me.
Microsofts successful cross platform apps like VSCode and Teams ignore all of them so following suit seems pretty sensible to me.
Teams is only successful because it's free and integrates with the M365 ecosystem. All its competitors are so much better.
It wasn't actually so bad at the start, it was just a poor slack knock-off. (Poor because the visual density is much lower with these oversized chat bubbles)
But now they are spending all their dev time cramming so much stuff into it without considering performance that it's become tooslow and cluttered. Now it's a wiki, a file storage thing, a video chat app, an interface to Yammer, not to mention the tons of plugins. Cool idea to have one app that does everything but performance and usability have gone down the drain. It feels very beta to me.
Oh and the choices they make are so stupid sometimes. When I decline a meeting it still adds me to its associated chat and pings me for everything that's said in it. Constant distraction and no way to turn off this stupid default.
It wasn't actually so bad at the start, it was just a poor slack knock-off. (Poor because the visual density is much lower with these oversized chat bubbles)
But now they are spending all their dev time cramming so much stuff into it without considering performance that it's become tooslow and cluttered. Now it's a wiki, a file storage thing, a video chat app, an interface to Yammer, not to mention the tons of plugins. Cool idea to have one app that does everything but performance and usability have gone down the drain. It feels very beta to me.
Oh and the choices they make are so stupid sometimes. When I decline a meeting it still adds me to its associated chat and pings me for everything that's said in it. Constant distraction and no way to turn off this stupid default.
I would agree Teams itself is a mess. I was just pointing out that Microsoft have successful apps across 3 different operating systems, and neither of them use Microsoft GUI frameworks.
I don't see why I should use a Microsoft GUI any more either. Once you stop using their libraries, you no longer need their OS at all. Pretty strange behaviour from MS if you ask me, encouraging your users to get off their systems.
I don't see why I should use a Microsoft GUI any more either. Once you stop using their libraries, you no longer need their OS at all. Pretty strange behaviour from MS if you ask me, encouraging your users to get off their systems.
> It's now a viable competitor for enterprise applications, both because web is getting more feature rich and these days has pretty much anything you need, and because desktop is getting worse with anti-features and jank. It's a sad state of affairs but that's where we are.
Actually web is getting worse with anti-features and jank as well.
Actually web is getting worse with anti-features and jank as well.
I agree with all of your points yet come to the opposite conclusion. Choosing the web means everything I make goes through Google’s hands in one way or another, which irks me. Plus it evolves so quickly that you can’t just make a good product and let it be.
I’m learning rust as time allows.
I’m learning rust as time allows.
Apple's operating system 8.6 nailed the desktop. Everything since has been a disaster.
> Nobody at Microsoft who has decision-making authority actually cares.
> Acknowledging this is the first step. The second is figuring out what would make them care or how to remove them so someone who does care can take over. That's a much harder thing to do.
There's the challenge.
Who cared about "hardware"? Jony Ive and Jobs perhaps?
Who cares about OS performance? Linus Torvalds. I'm sure there are MS insiders who we don't know.
Who cares about the desktop? .....
The funny thing is the desktop was a solved problem with the mother-of-all-demos, and everything else is sugar on top, and yet there has to be this continual awful rebranding. Ok we went from VGA, to HD, to 4k HDR, but the underlying design and UI doesn't have to change so poorly each time.
> Acknowledging this is the first step. The second is figuring out what would make them care or how to remove them so someone who does care can take over. That's a much harder thing to do.
There's the challenge.
Who cared about "hardware"? Jony Ive and Jobs perhaps?
Who cares about OS performance? Linus Torvalds. I'm sure there are MS insiders who we don't know.
Who cares about the desktop? .....
The funny thing is the desktop was a solved problem with the mother-of-all-demos, and everything else is sugar on top, and yet there has to be this continual awful rebranding. Ok we went from VGA, to HD, to 4k HDR, but the underlying design and UI doesn't have to change so poorly each time.
It's such an interesting contrast, for both ends of Microsoft to have reversed so heavily. The core consumer product once fought for betterment and improvement. "Where do you want to go today" was the slogan, suggesting users the helm, piloting their Personal Computer wherever they may. Oh, and it was a complete vision, totalizing. Microsoft did not care at all about open source, webdev, Linux, or broader ecosystem outside their castle.
The extent to which Microsoft has become the inverse in a mere decade of time is mind-boggling. Core products seem to lack the internal political strength to resist becoming naggy, crappy ad-ware, pushing other people's not your own desires. Teams and Office are the new core focus, asking, Where does your company want to go today? Teams has boss-ware pro-harassment features like letting people re-raise notifications at you every 5 minutes. This is expressly hostile anti-personal computing, is deeply mechanized corporate processes applied to people. But in terms of open source, Linux, webdev, the broader world of development & making things happen, Microsoft has completely reversed course, embracing Linux in the data center, releasing vast amounts of their systems as open source, providing & sponsoring copious onramps & cross-platform integrations, doing everything they can to make themselves appealing as a broad partner to the rest of the world, rather than Castle Microsoft, Windowsland.
The extent to which Microsoft has become the inverse in a mere decade of time is mind-boggling. Core products seem to lack the internal political strength to resist becoming naggy, crappy ad-ware, pushing other people's not your own desires. Teams and Office are the new core focus, asking, Where does your company want to go today? Teams has boss-ware pro-harassment features like letting people re-raise notifications at you every 5 minutes. This is expressly hostile anti-personal computing, is deeply mechanized corporate processes applied to people. But in terms of open source, Linux, webdev, the broader world of development & making things happen, Microsoft has completely reversed course, embracing Linux in the data center, releasing vast amounts of their systems as open source, providing & sponsoring copious onramps & cross-platform integrations, doing everything they can to make themselves appealing as a broad partner to the rest of the world, rather than Castle Microsoft, Windowsland.
Another thing that really bothers me about Microsoft is all the logging they do. They don't care about privacy at all.
They send me emails about how I haven't done an @mention to enough colleagues on teams this week or that I should spend less time in meetings. Besides this being total nonsense due to not taking into account the type of job I have (of course different jobs have different balances of meetings etc), I also don't want them looking over my shoulder.
I can turn off the emails but not the logging itself. They proclaim that admins can't see what I do but as I was an admin I was actually able to see a lot more than they let on :( Sure some of it was anonimised (not all) but it's easy to filter by criteria narrow enough that that doesn't matter.
They seem convinced that they are helping us manage by data etc but they totally ignore the fact that many people frown on this practice. In fact some of it is illegal in the EU especially countries like Germany. Microsoft is clearly in the church of "Data driven everything" but they should not impose this on customers IMO.
They send me emails about how I haven't done an @mention to enough colleagues on teams this week or that I should spend less time in meetings. Besides this being total nonsense due to not taking into account the type of job I have (of course different jobs have different balances of meetings etc), I also don't want them looking over my shoulder.
I can turn off the emails but not the logging itself. They proclaim that admins can't see what I do but as I was an admin I was actually able to see a lot more than they let on :( Sure some of it was anonimised (not all) but it's easy to filter by criteria narrow enough that that doesn't matter.
They seem convinced that they are helping us manage by data etc but they totally ignore the fact that many people frown on this practice. In fact some of it is illegal in the EU especially countries like Germany. Microsoft is clearly in the church of "Data driven everything" but they should not impose this on customers IMO.
> But in terms of open source, Linux, webdev, the broader world of development & making things happen, Microsoft has completely reversed course, embracing
Embracing is the first step in dominating. Don’t fall for it.
Embracing is the first step in dominating. Don’t fall for it.
I think there is a danger, but hubris has gotten them way up shits creek & their relevance was rapidly moving to 0. Desktop platform is dying, mobile barely matters and they have no presence there... Microsoft started playing with others because pretending they were the unilateral giant that could dictate terms to the world landed them on a small shrinking pathetic island. So help them gods if they try that shit again.
That said, I 100% absolutely endorse caution. The past couple years of behaviors are no indicator Microsoft will stay a societally-positive technological force. The corruption & darkness & manipulation could play back in at any moment. Already, Microsoft creating very special terms of service for things like VSCode Remote Development Plugin, having extremely fantastically proprietary implementations for the incredibly useful/popular/fantastic LiveShare are harbingers of the old ways, indicators that Microsoft just wants to force the door open, not really engage & participate.
For now though, I still overall think they are doing good work, pariticpating/not domineering (with some caveats). They learned very very very personally what happens when you violate the core rule of software, the most important maxim, not couched as such but absolutely of key vitality to computing: "Create more value than you capture." -Tim O'Reilly. Of course, all organizations forget the/their past. And I quake thinking of how many people pretend they are using/learning Linux while never seeing systemd, freedesktop, the greater Linux project: WSL is amazing but a dark & tragic small death for the real open source, & it's cheered on & fanboyed endlessly for enabling the blessed ignorant. You are right. Adopter beware.
That said, I 100% absolutely endorse caution. The past couple years of behaviors are no indicator Microsoft will stay a societally-positive technological force. The corruption & darkness & manipulation could play back in at any moment. Already, Microsoft creating very special terms of service for things like VSCode Remote Development Plugin, having extremely fantastically proprietary implementations for the incredibly useful/popular/fantastic LiveShare are harbingers of the old ways, indicators that Microsoft just wants to force the door open, not really engage & participate.
For now though, I still overall think they are doing good work, pariticpating/not domineering (with some caveats). They learned very very very personally what happens when you violate the core rule of software, the most important maxim, not couched as such but absolutely of key vitality to computing: "Create more value than you capture." -Tim O'Reilly. Of course, all organizations forget the/their past. And I quake thinking of how many people pretend they are using/learning Linux while never seeing systemd, freedesktop, the greater Linux project: WSL is amazing but a dark & tragic small death for the real open source, & it's cheered on & fanboyed endlessly for enabling the blessed ignorant. You are right. Adopter beware.
Even stuff like WSL is loosing it's shine now for me. I've personally hit a bug on multiple computers that I can reliably repo a blue screen if I attempt to update a specific package.
The github bug for this issue last had activity from MS 4 months ago.
Kinda makes it hard to take it seriously if such a major blocker is treated with such low priority.
The github bug for this issue last had activity from MS 4 months ago.
Kinda makes it hard to take it seriously if such a major blocker is treated with such low priority.
Try doing anything I/O intensive in WSL and it all falls apart. I have a 32 core machine with 128GB using nvme disks and it's getting murdered performance wise by an 8 core AWS instance with 16GB of ram on gp2 disks.
1 or 2, and doing the I/O inside the virtual disk or not?
WSL2 inside the virtual disk should be very fast.
WSL2 inside the virtual disk should be very fast.
My system bluescreens when I so much as install WSL2 on my second work laptop with Windows 11. Tried to track it down and it seems to be some stupid Lenovo driver but it's almost impossible to fix :(
wsl2 has been very very stable for me. in fact, i have spent a lot of time in the last 6 months on wsl2 (FYI - fedora is my main)
i really recommend trying out wsl2. you now can install it from the window store.
i really recommend trying out wsl2. you now can install it from the window store.
Yep, I know people love it. It sent my machine into a boot loop till I could uninstall it in safe mode.
I'll live with a dedicated VM for now.
I'll live with a dedicated VM for now.
Yeah I’ve never had issues. I’ve used Linux as a daily driver since Vista came out so wsl has been nice for me. I can finally have a gaming PC that can also serve as a docker server and just generally test my backend on. With that said my two coworkers, who are very much Windows daily driver users, have had nothing but issues. Some times I think my Linux knowledge is what’s helped me here, ironically.
Is that WSL 1 or 2?
WSL 1, my attempt to install WSL 2 after this BSOD failed miserably, put a machine in a boot loop, I haven't dug into what was going on there.
AFAIK WSL 1 isn't actively being worked on anymore, now that there's WSL 2. As for your issue with WSL 2, it runs off hyper-v, so my guess is that there's something with your BIOS/UEFI/firmware settings that's breaking it (eg. secureboot/CSM, TPM, virtualization).
You might be right about WSL 1 being dead, which is just annoying since it's useful for me.
Ironically with your comment about Hyper-V: I moved to using Linux in a Hyper-V VM for now for this workflow. It's in that category of category of "ugh, not worth the time to figure out" for now, which probably means I won't bother for quite a while. Honestly, when things slow down again, I'll probably just flatten this machine and install Linux. MS is kinda killing whatever inertia I had for dealing with their quirks.
Ironically with your comment about Hyper-V: I moved to using Linux in a Hyper-V VM for now for this workflow. It's in that category of category of "ugh, not worth the time to figure out" for now, which probably means I won't bother for quite a while. Honestly, when things slow down again, I'll probably just flatten this machine and install Linux. MS is kinda killing whatever inertia I had for dealing with their quirks.
Agreed. The concept of WSL1 was much more interesting. Interfacing with Windows through a Linux userland. Actually do stuff on the windows system with a familiar interface.
WSL2 is just Linux in a VM which has been around like forever.
By the way it also put my system in a boot loop (blue screen on boot). I tracked it down to a buggy Lenovo driver but when I removed that it crashed on something else and I got sick of it and gave up.
WSL2 is just Linux in a VM which has been around like forever.
By the way it also put my system in a boot loop (blue screen on boot). I tracked it down to a buggy Lenovo driver but when I removed that it crashed on something else and I got sick of it and gave up.
omg thank you for this. The amount of people trying to tell me WSL2 is groundbreaking - meanwhile I have been rocking Fedora in virtualbox for years.
WSL1 was really interesting, but ultimately Microsoft needed a flagship product to demonstrate the capabilities of Hyper-V and WSL was the perfect project.
WSL1 was really interesting, but ultimately Microsoft needed a flagship product to demonstrate the capabilities of Hyper-V and WSL was the perfect project.
To be clear, wsl 2 lets you interact with the Windows filesystem. I believe you can launch exes in wsl1, but not 2. However, I've never needed to do that. It's definitely not groundbreaking, but it is convenient.
Using it with the new terminal app is nice. It will load and unload the ram for the instance immediately whenever you pop open a linux shell. IMO opening and closing virtualbox/hyper-v takes longer and is clunkier. Overall it reduces friction.
Using it with the new terminal app is nice. It will load and unload the ram for the instance immediately whenever you pop open a linux shell. IMO opening and closing virtualbox/hyper-v takes longer and is clunkier. Overall it reduces friction.
Windows exes open fine in WSL2. You can also run linux apps from a Windows prompt - which is weird, but it works.
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/filesystems
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/filesystems
WSL2 filesystem access is just ordinary 9p mount.
It seems like 9p is the defacto standard for this. With all the network filesystems available, anyone know why that's the case? I personally don't have any experience with 9p.
It's not just running a vm on windows. The integration between the two makes it a lot more streamlined than just running something on virtual box. You can do stuff like browse the windows file system from Linux easily and vice versa. You can also run windows executables from inside Linux to do things like write stdout to your windows clipboard by piping it to powershell.
"Honestly, when things slow down again, I'll probably just flatten this machine and install Linux. MS is kinda killing whatever inertia I had for dealing with their quirks."
In 2028, we'll be reading news articles about how the Year of Linux on the Desktop never really came, but the Year of Anything But Monetized Microsoft Windows sure did.
If I were making a list of companies and software packages that should be focusing on long term value rather than trading short term value for everyone hating your product, Windows would be a strong contender for top of the list. Microsoft may not want to depend on Windows, but throwing away so much user value for so little money is a stupid decision.
I just can't hammer on this point enough. There isn't that much money in advertising. The best advertisers in the world are looking at ~$10-20 per user per year at scale [1]. Advertising makes a lot of money because there's a lot of those users, not because they make that much per user. (That's why all the plans to "share the revenue" with the ad consumer are just hopeless. The money can't support it.) Windows ads can not necessarily jump to that level of performance right away, either. I really don't see how they could possibly be making enough money in their OS ads to make up for the goodwill they're pissing away. They're trading a money stream that still has at least a good decade in it, quite possibly more, for short term gain that isn't even all that impressive. Who is pressing for all these ads? What kind of analysis is being done internally that shows this is worth it? I find it hard to believe. Even a Windows in decline picking up licensing fees on new computer sales should be bringing in vastly more revenue than advertising possibly could. Ruining your 2025 sales for not really all that much money right now seems a very bad decision for a product coming up on 30 years old and still making lots of money.
[1]: You can do better for very targeted things like mesothelioma ads, but at scale, that's what Facebook is looking at.
In 2028, we'll be reading news articles about how the Year of Linux on the Desktop never really came, but the Year of Anything But Monetized Microsoft Windows sure did.
If I were making a list of companies and software packages that should be focusing on long term value rather than trading short term value for everyone hating your product, Windows would be a strong contender for top of the list. Microsoft may not want to depend on Windows, but throwing away so much user value for so little money is a stupid decision.
I just can't hammer on this point enough. There isn't that much money in advertising. The best advertisers in the world are looking at ~$10-20 per user per year at scale [1]. Advertising makes a lot of money because there's a lot of those users, not because they make that much per user. (That's why all the plans to "share the revenue" with the ad consumer are just hopeless. The money can't support it.) Windows ads can not necessarily jump to that level of performance right away, either. I really don't see how they could possibly be making enough money in their OS ads to make up for the goodwill they're pissing away. They're trading a money stream that still has at least a good decade in it, quite possibly more, for short term gain that isn't even all that impressive. Who is pressing for all these ads? What kind of analysis is being done internally that shows this is worth it? I find it hard to believe. Even a Windows in decline picking up licensing fees on new computer sales should be bringing in vastly more revenue than advertising possibly could. Ruining your 2025 sales for not really all that much money right now seems a very bad decision for a product coming up on 30 years old and still making lots of money.
[1]: You can do better for very targeted things like mesothelioma ads, but at scale, that's what Facebook is looking at.
Every time Microsoft does something that a couple of people aren't happy with the trumphets of "now is the year of Linux" sound everywhere, in the end the large majority of consumers and the developers that care to get money from those consumers, keep using Windows.
When XP came to be, when Vista was released and DX 10 was vista only, when Windows 8 arrived, when all the talk about WinRT started, .... now Windows 11 with these issues.
When XP came to be, when Vista was released and DX 10 was vista only, when Windows 8 arrived, when all the talk about WinRT started, .... now Windows 11 with these issues.
You're definitely an early adopter if you're on WSL now. I'd say it's probably not prime time until 2024 or so.
It's like being in an abusive relationship.
Indeed, another way it's like an abusive relationship is people's reluctance to leave despite all they've experienced.
I hear all the horror stories and then say "I've been using for ten years and it works well" and I get "oh, but I don't want to have to fiddle with things" (after discussions of how hard Windows is to get to do things).
Linux has glitches but Microsoft manipulates people. Maybe people stay because they think that because Windows hurts them, it cares.
Indeed, another way it's like an abusive relationship is people's reluctance to leave despite all they've experienced.
I hear all the horror stories and then say "I've been using for ten years and it works well" and I get "oh, but I don't want to have to fiddle with things" (after discussions of how hard Windows is to get to do things).
Linux has glitches but Microsoft manipulates people. Maybe people stay because they think that because Windows hurts them, it cares.
While I don't necessarily disagree with the initial statement, I will say that Linux Desktop has its own kind of abusive relationship, especially if you have to deal with certain parts of the community. GNOME in particular is pretty user-hostile in both design and in its community interactions, and while you can use a different DE GNOME is the default for the most popular and recommended distributions.
Personally I've stuck with Windows because I rather hate the package manager/repo model that Linux distros use, where you get your choice between "up to date but frequently broken" rolling-release[0] or "several years out of date but probably stable". To me, the idea it is considered reasonable to expect a user to set up a dev environment and compile software from source is ludicrous, but until relatively recently that's been the norm[1]. Thankfully, AppImage and Flatpak have been gaining popularity and making that much less of a problem.
Now the two biggest things keeping me from switching immediately are that I have an Nvidia 1080ti and buying an equivalent AMD card in this market is insane[2], and my Oculus isn't supported at all[3]. Still, I'll go to Linux before I go to Win 11.
[0] which still often has out of date and missing packages
[1] for anything not packaged by the distro or if you need a newer version
[2] thanks Bitcoin Idiots, LLC
[3] and from everything I gather no VR solution really works that well on Linux, even Valve's.
Personally I've stuck with Windows because I rather hate the package manager/repo model that Linux distros use, where you get your choice between "up to date but frequently broken" rolling-release[0] or "several years out of date but probably stable". To me, the idea it is considered reasonable to expect a user to set up a dev environment and compile software from source is ludicrous, but until relatively recently that's been the norm[1]. Thankfully, AppImage and Flatpak have been gaining popularity and making that much less of a problem.
Now the two biggest things keeping me from switching immediately are that I have an Nvidia 1080ti and buying an equivalent AMD card in this market is insane[2], and my Oculus isn't supported at all[3]. Still, I'll go to Linux before I go to Win 11.
[0] which still often has out of date and missing packages
[1] for anything not packaged by the distro or if you need a newer version
[2] thanks Bitcoin Idiots, LLC
[3] and from everything I gather no VR solution really works that well on Linux, even Valve's.
> Personally I've stuck with Windows because I rather hate the package manager/repo model that Linux distros use
I have the opposite feeling: installation by search engine and speculative .exe downloads feels so dirty. There's the Windows store but it doesn't seem to actually work very often.
Then again, following StackExchange or blog posts to add keys and deb repos for Ubuntu is no better. The AUR is also similar, but I trust that a bit more than a random blog post since at least there's a flagging mechanism.
FWIW, I rarely have issues with rolling releases on Arch, certainly fewer issues than I have with Ubuntu repo package versions.
I have the opposite feeling: installation by search engine and speculative .exe downloads feels so dirty. There's the Windows store but it doesn't seem to actually work very often.
Then again, following StackExchange or blog posts to add keys and deb repos for Ubuntu is no better. The AUR is also similar, but I trust that a bit more than a random blog post since at least there's a flagging mechanism.
FWIW, I rarely have issues with rolling releases on Arch, certainly fewer issues than I have with Ubuntu repo package versions.
Hey you again. c:
>I have an Nvidia 1080ti
Fwiw, I used Linux with an 1080 Ti for years; it was the first card I tried Linux on. The only hitch is having to install Nvidia's proprietary drivers. Distros with GUI tools for drivers (e.g., Manjaro) make this easy.
The only problem was actually my G-SYNC monitor. It was one of those super expensive ones with G-SYNC hardware in it. It turns out those just go black if you're not using an Nvidia card && aren't running proprietary drivers.
At some point, I gave it and my 1080 Ti away and got an AMD card with FreeSync monitors. Funnily, the FreeSync doesn't actually work. (Luckily, I don't care that much about tearing, and it's less noticeable at >=144 Hz.) AND, with AMD, you don't have a nice GPU settings panel like Nvidia provides (as basic as it is compared to its Windows equivalent). I've noticed no other differences. Nevertheless, having the open source driver in-kernel and not worrying about installing it out of band is nice.
>no VR solution really works that well on Linux, even Valve's.
Yep, probably; tech is too new. I don't even try stuff like that until it's 30 years old and mainlined. ;D
>GNOME
Yeah, I don't know how anyone sane likes GNOME, and it's insane to me that KDE isn't the default DE instead. I reckon it's a combo of inertia, the fact that the GNOME faction were the GPL purists compared to TrollTech back in the day, and (enduring?) convergence/low-tech user adoption hopes.
>I have an Nvidia 1080ti
Fwiw, I used Linux with an 1080 Ti for years; it was the first card I tried Linux on. The only hitch is having to install Nvidia's proprietary drivers. Distros with GUI tools for drivers (e.g., Manjaro) make this easy.
The only problem was actually my G-SYNC monitor. It was one of those super expensive ones with G-SYNC hardware in it. It turns out those just go black if you're not using an Nvidia card && aren't running proprietary drivers.
At some point, I gave it and my 1080 Ti away and got an AMD card with FreeSync monitors. Funnily, the FreeSync doesn't actually work. (Luckily, I don't care that much about tearing, and it's less noticeable at >=144 Hz.) AND, with AMD, you don't have a nice GPU settings panel like Nvidia provides (as basic as it is compared to its Windows equivalent). I've noticed no other differences. Nevertheless, having the open source driver in-kernel and not worrying about installing it out of band is nice.
>no VR solution really works that well on Linux, even Valve's.
Yep, probably; tech is too new. I don't even try stuff like that until it's 30 years old and mainlined. ;D
>GNOME
Yeah, I don't know how anyone sane likes GNOME, and it's insane to me that KDE isn't the default DE instead. I reckon it's a combo of inertia, the fact that the GNOME faction were the GPL purists compared to TrollTech back in the day, and (enduring?) convergence/low-tech user adoption hopes.
While I don't necessarily disagree with the initial statement, I will say that Linux Desktop has its own kind of abusive relationship, especially if you have to deal with certain parts of the community.
As mentioned, I've been using Linux for ten years as my only system and I installed at time over the twenty years before that. At worst, twenty years ago, I would contact people and got "I ignore your bug 'cause you don't have the very latest thing everywhere". In my current experience, I've never had to "talk" to anyone. It's not without hiccups but it's not "abusive" in the sense of Windows 'cause no one is fixing one thing to break another or gaslighting you about bugs.
As mentioned, I've been using Linux for ten years as my only system and I installed at time over the twenty years before that. At worst, twenty years ago, I would contact people and got "I ignore your bug 'cause you don't have the very latest thing everywhere". In my current experience, I've never had to "talk" to anyone. It's not without hiccups but it's not "abusive" in the sense of Windows 'cause no one is fixing one thing to break another or gaslighting you about bugs.
Agreed on your first paragraph. I use Mate which allows me to sidestep ~80% of gnome's abuse, however some still leaks in through GTK, I think.
Re the second, I haven't built an app from source since about 2005? or so.
Re the second, I haven't built an app from source since about 2005? or so.
Yeah, I should have said Ubuntu Mate. It solves most problems.
I've had to build apps from source - but these were free extras, not things I needed for basic functionality.
I've had to build apps from source - but these were free extras, not things I needed for basic functionality.
> are that I have an Nvidia 1080ti and buying an equivalent AMD card in this market is insane
If you're worried about support for the Nvidia 1080ti, I've found no problems with the Nvidia drivers for a 1050, a 1060, and the 1650 I'm currently using now. If you're just wishing to upgrade and would rather go the AMD route because of binary drivers, I get it. If you're worried about bad Nvidia drivers in linux, I've found them to be very good lately as long as you keep them updated.
If you're worried about support for the Nvidia 1080ti, I've found no problems with the Nvidia drivers for a 1050, a 1060, and the 1650 I'm currently using now. If you're just wishing to upgrade and would rather go the AMD route because of binary drivers, I get it. If you're worried about bad Nvidia drivers in linux, I've found them to be very good lately as long as you keep them updated.
I've seen so many people say things like: "Windows is fine, all you have to do is [gigantic list of obscure settings changes, registry edits, external freeware programs] to turn off the telemetry!"
It will eventually get to the point where it will take more settings-twiddling to make Windows do what you actually want than Linux does.
It will eventually get to the point where it will take more settings-twiddling to make Windows do what you actually want than Linux does.
I used an Ubuntu 21.10 installer recently, it was completely uneventful to set up with the default side-by-side configuration and actually easier than the Windows one (which must create a Windows account, you can then disconnect this from your local account later with a magic settings dance).
A lot of people stay because it is required by the school or the employer.
The one thing I find the most terrible is the "10 different UI conventions" thing. Dig enough and I bet you'll find a control panel or some other thing the has Windows NT 3.1 look and feel.
It says a lot how low the abstraction levels must have been that it's impossible, even to Microsoft, to update the UI widgets of a long-dead Windows release without breaking something else.
It says a lot how low the abstraction levels must have been that it's impossible, even to Microsoft, to update the UI widgets of a long-dead Windows release without breaking something else.
Open "ODBC Data Sources" from the start menu
Click "Add..."
Click "Finish" with "Microsoft Access Driver" selected (no, you're not finished)
Click "Select..."
Click "Add..."
Click "Finish" with "Microsoft Access Driver" selected (no, you're not finished)
Click "Select..."
If you are curious but don't have Windows: https://imgur.com/a/40vuBTK
Disappointingly this wasn't in the ARM version (the access driver). Just SQL Server.
Wonder if it can be found anywhere else. I did try the old progman.exe (via x86 compatability), and while it worked, it uses the modern API for the file dialog.
Wonder if it can be found anywhere else. I did try the old progman.exe (via x86 compatability), and while it worked, it uses the modern API for the file dialog.
Ding ding ding. You win the prize. Every click is a step back in time.
Thanks for the trip down memory lane
> Nobody at Microsoft who has decision-making authority actually cares
"The only problem with Microsoft is they just have no taste" -- Steve Jobs
"The only problem with Microsoft is they just have no taste" -- Steve Jobs
You could say that about the post-Steve-Jobs Apple as well.
Is that really true though?
Yes, the UIs Apple make are no longer anywhere near as intuitive as they were in Steve Jobs’ days, but Apple definitely still have their soul. You don’t even have to look further than the latest iMacs.
Yes, the UIs Apple make are no longer anywhere near as intuitive as they were in Steve Jobs’ days, but Apple definitely still have their soul. You don’t even have to look further than the latest iMacs.
>Apple definitely still have their soul
Really? It's all so painful sterile. Even their attempts at deviating from that coldness feel like someone with a spreadsheet calculated they should increase the brand-safe fun quotient in sector 7G by 4%.
Really? It's all so painful sterile. Even their attempts at deviating from that coldness feel like someone with a spreadsheet calculated they should increase the brand-safe fun quotient in sector 7G by 4%.
I believe this [1] is the interview from which the quote is taken.
[1] https://youtu.be/rDqQcmVqAm4
[1] https://youtu.be/rDqQcmVqAm4
WSL is a threat to open software. At best a gateway. Anyone who believes Microsoft has changed is at best naive and at worst a fool. We have decades of evidence to show that Microsoft doesn’t change. The sooner you move to a new platform the better. And don’t bring Microsoft with you.
Strongly agreed.
WSL – both versions – are MS attempting its age-old "embrace & extend" move.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis...
I called it a distant relative of the NT POSIX environment and some senior MS bod disagreed and – when I said [[citation needed]] – eventually linked to a bunch of videos and stuff that say that WSL1 is a whole new translation layer and not a kernel personality at all.
Which makes me wonder: why? Do MS not have enough top-flight kernel engineers any more to do an in-kernel version of gvisor? https://github.com/google/gvisor
Others have done it.
Joyent enhanced the old Solaris `lxrun` environment to bring it to 64-bit and kernel 3.x or even 4.x: https://www.slideshare.net/bcantrill/illumos-lx
The FreeBSD Linuxulator does much the same: https://wiki.freebsd.org/Linuxulator
WSL – both versions – are MS attempting its age-old "embrace & extend" move.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis...
I called it a distant relative of the NT POSIX environment and some senior MS bod disagreed and – when I said [[citation needed]] – eventually linked to a bunch of videos and stuff that say that WSL1 is a whole new translation layer and not a kernel personality at all.
Which makes me wonder: why? Do MS not have enough top-flight kernel engineers any more to do an in-kernel version of gvisor? https://github.com/google/gvisor
Others have done it.
Joyent enhanced the old Solaris `lxrun` environment to bring it to 64-bit and kernel 3.x or even 4.x: https://www.slideshare.net/bcantrill/illumos-lx
The FreeBSD Linuxulator does much the same: https://wiki.freebsd.org/Linuxulator
> I called it a distant relative of the NT POSIX environment and some senior MS bod disagreed and – when I said [[citation needed]] – eventually linked to a bunch of videos and stuff that say that WSL1 is a whole new translation layer and not a kernel personality at all.
As far as I understand it, WSL1 was a complete reimplementation and did not use any code from the old POSIX subsystem/SUA/Interix. In particular, SUA had a number of long-standing limitations (like when replacing open files) which were probably unfixable without rewriting everything anyway. It allegedly is a continuation of Project Astoria which implemented only the minimum necessary part to make Android apps run, but was refocused to run all Linux applications.
As far as I understand it, WSL1 was a complete reimplementation and did not use any code from the old POSIX subsystem/SUA/Interix. In particular, SUA had a number of long-standing limitations (like when replacing open files) which were probably unfixable without rewriting everything anyway. It allegedly is a continuation of Project Astoria which implemented only the minimum necessary part to make Android apps run, but was refocused to run all Linux applications.
Fair enough, and thanks for the insight!
> Nobody at Microsoft who has decision-making authority actually cares.
I don't know if it started with Ballmer, but they do care, but it is just about sales, and making money. It's not as if selling and making money is antithetical to making good software either.
It's always the same in the IT industry. The "non technical" managers are invariably higher in the org chart than developers and they have no concept of what people actually want, and make disastrously poor decisions. Falling sales... improve product, increase the price, or introduce ads?
I haven't booted Windows at home for close to 3 years. KDE on Ubuntu is rock solid for me, all the peripherals work, powers both my screens, has all the software I need.
And best of all, it's still 100% offline and I don't have to sign into anyone's "cloud".
I don't know if it started with Ballmer, but they do care, but it is just about sales, and making money. It's not as if selling and making money is antithetical to making good software either.
It's always the same in the IT industry. The "non technical" managers are invariably higher in the org chart than developers and they have no concept of what people actually want, and make disastrously poor decisions. Falling sales... improve product, increase the price, or introduce ads?
I haven't booted Windows at home for close to 3 years. KDE on Ubuntu is rock solid for me, all the peripherals work, powers both my screens, has all the software I need.
And best of all, it's still 100% offline and I don't have to sign into anyone's "cloud".
Or they do have an idea what the users want, but it is still bad... at my job, the non-technical managers bought the SAP marketing koolaid, promised our internal users the cool new stuff they were going to get with the new software, and we in the IT just want to scream and say, no, you can't get that, that's not supported, or will take a year to build because we would have to revamp almost everything ourselves... and, yes, all because at SAP no one knows what users need. We have had several rounds with SAP PMs already were they basically said "huh, that's interesting, that's how you work with the software? We need to discuss this internally." Well... good thing you didn't ask before launching the new version then.
Acceptance tests:
"As a user I want to XYZ"
vs.
"As a product manager listening to what I think a user said, they want to ABC"
That's what happens when developers in large companies are not allowed or do not want to talk to users.
"As a user I want to XYZ"
vs.
"As a product manager listening to what I think a user said, they want to ABC"
That's what happens when developers in large companies are not allowed or do not want to talk to users.
Hah, you cannot adopt SAP to your needs, it's the other way around, you have to adopt to them. If that matches your use case, allright, but otherwise forget about it.
Making money and caring about users are related, but there's definitely a difference between making a good product that people would like to use, and trying to make money. The latter may well make you rich, but it may make your product much worse, which you shore up with lots of salespeople and complex pricing schemes and dealmaking to keep people locked in.
Totally unrelated: The Microsoft PowerApps licencing PDF is 6 pages long.
There's also that they "decided" that none of their core customer bases actually matter. They no longer cater to the needs of anyone.
Some random examples:
Enterprise -- It's cloud or the highway. You're either migrating to Azure and Microsoft 365, or stuck in dead-ends with virtually no maintenance/attention. Core products have just been left twisting in the wind. Active Directory for example has had no major feature updates since 2016. Microsoft themselves use Linux for many of their Azure PaaS/SaaS services, which is very telling. There's no on-prem equivalents of CosmosDB, Log Analytics, and a range of other "core" services developed for Azure.
Gamers -- Windows gaming is a shit-show and all development effort is focused on XBox. Occasionally, reluctantly, features will be backported from XBox to PC, but usually broken or limited in some critical way. For example, DirectStorage for PC was under NDA until very recently, and there were few (zero?) games shipping with that capability. HDR gaming on Windows is a total mess as well, with one lone blog article talking about bringing the HDR tuning app to PC form XBox "some unspecified time in the future". Without this, HDR is totally and utterly broken, unless the PC is plugged into an external TV... like an XBox.
Content Creation -- Windows used to be better and more commonly used than Apple for a while, especially in some areas. Not any more. The endless series of penny-pinching decisions and broken features have driven artists away in droves. Some random examples: Windows 11 shipped with totally broken colour management. As in, absolutely non-functional. Windows 11 also broke HDR even further, and it was broken in Windows 10 to begin with. You literally cannot display or view HDR correctly on the primary ("built in") monitor of any Windows PC. It was broken on purpose, and then... left like that. It's possible the next semi-annual build will "fix" it, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Dolby Vision is not enabled by default. Camera RAW decoders are not installed by default. H.264 is not installed by default. The built-in photo viewers and editors are not color-managed. Wide Color Gamut (WCG) support was removed at every level. It's just gone. Microsoft wants to enshrine SDR sRGB forever in an era where every new phone and every Apple device is wide-gamut and HDR.
Software Developers -- See Casey Muratori's rants about the ludicrous degradation of basic quality controls in Visual Studio, Windows Terminal, etc... For example, VS 2022 can't keep up with debug single-stepping on that fastest machine money can buy, but ancient PCs running older versions had no trouble. But that's just a small annoyance. The real problem is that Windows GUI development is dead. It may as well not exist any more. There is no supported GUI framework that isn't a dead-end, formally unsupported, or restricted to "mobile phone app" levels. Even Microsoft recognises this, and most of their new GUI products (e.g.: Teams) are Electron apps. What little new stuff they're putting out (e.g.: Visual Studio Code) is a tyre fire of low quality tools trying to appeal to the Linux/Mac crowd at the expense of majority used to Windows.
To summarise: if in 2022 I want to develop a GUI app, or display anything with the correct colour, or HDR, or any similarly advanced features, my best approach is to use Google's Chromium. If I want to write a game, use Vulkan, not DirectX. If I want to create a web app, use Linux. If I want to use a database, Postgres. If I want authentication, then anything but Active Directory. If I want to use dev tools, use IntelliJ.
There is nothing left where the #1 best approach is Microsoft Windows or some other Microsoft product.
Some random examples:
Enterprise -- It's cloud or the highway. You're either migrating to Azure and Microsoft 365, or stuck in dead-ends with virtually no maintenance/attention. Core products have just been left twisting in the wind. Active Directory for example has had no major feature updates since 2016. Microsoft themselves use Linux for many of their Azure PaaS/SaaS services, which is very telling. There's no on-prem equivalents of CosmosDB, Log Analytics, and a range of other "core" services developed for Azure.
Gamers -- Windows gaming is a shit-show and all development effort is focused on XBox. Occasionally, reluctantly, features will be backported from XBox to PC, but usually broken or limited in some critical way. For example, DirectStorage for PC was under NDA until very recently, and there were few (zero?) games shipping with that capability. HDR gaming on Windows is a total mess as well, with one lone blog article talking about bringing the HDR tuning app to PC form XBox "some unspecified time in the future". Without this, HDR is totally and utterly broken, unless the PC is plugged into an external TV... like an XBox.
Content Creation -- Windows used to be better and more commonly used than Apple for a while, especially in some areas. Not any more. The endless series of penny-pinching decisions and broken features have driven artists away in droves. Some random examples: Windows 11 shipped with totally broken colour management. As in, absolutely non-functional. Windows 11 also broke HDR even further, and it was broken in Windows 10 to begin with. You literally cannot display or view HDR correctly on the primary ("built in") monitor of any Windows PC. It was broken on purpose, and then... left like that. It's possible the next semi-annual build will "fix" it, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Dolby Vision is not enabled by default. Camera RAW decoders are not installed by default. H.264 is not installed by default. The built-in photo viewers and editors are not color-managed. Wide Color Gamut (WCG) support was removed at every level. It's just gone. Microsoft wants to enshrine SDR sRGB forever in an era where every new phone and every Apple device is wide-gamut and HDR.
Software Developers -- See Casey Muratori's rants about the ludicrous degradation of basic quality controls in Visual Studio, Windows Terminal, etc... For example, VS 2022 can't keep up with debug single-stepping on that fastest machine money can buy, but ancient PCs running older versions had no trouble. But that's just a small annoyance. The real problem is that Windows GUI development is dead. It may as well not exist any more. There is no supported GUI framework that isn't a dead-end, formally unsupported, or restricted to "mobile phone app" levels. Even Microsoft recognises this, and most of their new GUI products (e.g.: Teams) are Electron apps. What little new stuff they're putting out (e.g.: Visual Studio Code) is a tyre fire of low quality tools trying to appeal to the Linux/Mac crowd at the expense of majority used to Windows.
To summarise: if in 2022 I want to develop a GUI app, or display anything with the correct colour, or HDR, or any similarly advanced features, my best approach is to use Google's Chromium. If I want to write a game, use Vulkan, not DirectX. If I want to create a web app, use Linux. If I want to use a database, Postgres. If I want authentication, then anything but Active Directory. If I want to use dev tools, use IntelliJ.
There is nothing left where the #1 best approach is Microsoft Windows or some other Microsoft product.
The cash cow will always be Microsoft Office. That's what governments use and because of that companies use it, and because of that everyone uses it.
Bingo. All these posts that say "oh just use Linux, it's compatible!" must be from naive junior devs who never have had to to deal with external organizations (especially governments) that require you to use their Word templates and share PowerPoint slides on their Teams calls.
Teams works on Linux now.
It's a pig of an app especially on Mac (haven't tried Linux enough to verify) but it runs.
On my Mac it takes a minute to start (fast M1 system), randomly crashes or hangs and often uses more than half my memory. But it is supported :)
It's a pig of an app especially on Mac (haven't tried Linux enough to verify) but it runs.
On my Mac it takes a minute to start (fast M1 system), randomly crashes or hangs and often uses more than half my memory. But it is supported :)
It "works," but not well enough for my purposes. I need to be able to share PowerPoint on Teams with my full slides visible to participants, and speaker notes visible only to me. There's no native PowerPoint for Linux, so that's a no-go.
PDFs? Unless participants need to edit the actual slides themselves what's wrong with PDFs? Most half decent PDF readers these days have a presentation mode where it goes full screen and arrow keys page through. Yes, you lose swoopy animations, sound effects and video but that's arguably a plus. And participants can read the slides on a wider range of devices with little hassle. Your speaker notes can stay with whatever slide program was used to make them.
My government funding overlords require me to send them PPTXs and DOCXs. And MS Teams on Linux only supports full-screen sharing, not window-specific sharing, so I can't do presenter view on my screen and slides-only on the call.
I feel a lot of responses here are missing the point. Linux doesn't do what I need it to do with respect to the established MS Office norms I have to conform to. Linux is a bad tool for my required workflow (a workflow that isn't all that uncommon), so I keep Windows around because it's a more suitable tool for that.
I'll repeat what I said: Linux is a great tool when you're a junior individual contributor, but it sucks when you're responsible for external communications with MS Office organizations.
I feel a lot of responses here are missing the point. Linux doesn't do what I need it to do with respect to the established MS Office norms I have to conform to. Linux is a bad tool for my required workflow (a workflow that isn't all that uncommon), so I keep Windows around because it's a more suitable tool for that.
I'll repeat what I said: Linux is a great tool when you're a junior individual contributor, but it sucks when you're responsible for external communications with MS Office organizations.
While I'm sympathetic to this because it's, well, simply true for many people, I think it's always important to bear in mind that
> Linux doesn't do what I need it to do with respect to the established MS Office norms I have to conform to.
Is an entirely deliberate outcome that Microsoft has pushed hard for over decades (as you'd expect, since losing that monopoly is an existential threat to them).
> Linux doesn't do what I need it to do with respect to the established MS Office norms I have to conform to.
Is an entirely deliberate outcome that Microsoft has pushed hard for over decades (as you'd expect, since losing that monopoly is an existential threat to them).
I have no idea why the Linux Teams application is so limited. Instead on Linux to get the missing features you can run browser based teams in Chrome or Edge. It supports window specific sharing. Can also do blurred and virtual webcam backgrounds (but does not support custom virtual background).
It does actually work very in-browser office 365 powerpoint on linux.
That's not terribly different to my Teams experience on Windows 10.
It kind of works on Linux now. The only way I was able to join a call as a guest (not to my tenant!) was to launch it in Edge -- the native client crashed on launch if invoked to join an external meeting.
The cash cow is changing to be M365 and Azure now. I don't think it'll be too long till the web versions catch up and replace desktop office.
That is why I think Microsoft should someday consider Open Source Windows, or at least the kernel. Leave the UI and Library on top closed source as a moat on user for compatibility.
> What little new stuff they're putting out (e.g.: Visual Studio Code) is a tyre fire of low quality tools
I have no idea why you would say this. VS Code is an incredibly popular and well-liked product.
I have no idea why you would say this. VS Code is an incredibly popular and well-liked product.
It is popular because it filled a niche where next to nothing existed, so for people in those fields anything is a step up.
For people like me forced to come over from Visual Studio and other editors, it's a huge step down.
For example, instead of making improvements to the PowerShell Integrated Scripting Environment (ISE), Microsoft marked it as deprecated and "forced" everyone over to Visual Studio Code, whether they like it or not. E.g.: it's the only Microsoft IDE with PowerShell Core (pwsh) support.
Despite being the only supported Microsoft PowerShell IDE, VS Code does not play nice with PowerShell. For example, if I open Code, it opens three(3!) PowerShell terminals for unfathomable reasons. One of those starts with errors, the other works, but the third one is the default and crashes if you look at it sideways. Tab-complete just... stops. Even when tab-complete "works", it'll often start mid way through the list, hiding all of the relevant items and showing your random garbage like "quick start snippets" that make zero sense in the given tab-complete context.
I could rant for hours on how poor the Visual Studio Code quality is, but nobody will listen, because for people upgrading from Notepad, it's the second coming of Jesus.
Then there's always the smart-ass that explains patiently that this is all my fault for not "customising" my VS Code experience with JSON configuration settings that are seven levels deep and documented only in some blog article from three years ago. Meanwhile, I've never had to customise anything in Visual Studio. It "just works" the way you'd expect a Windows application to work. Not some Linux-Windows hybrid intended to be the "embrace" part of the unholy "embrace-extend-extinguish" trio.
For people like me forced to come over from Visual Studio and other editors, it's a huge step down.
For example, instead of making improvements to the PowerShell Integrated Scripting Environment (ISE), Microsoft marked it as deprecated and "forced" everyone over to Visual Studio Code, whether they like it or not. E.g.: it's the only Microsoft IDE with PowerShell Core (pwsh) support.
Despite being the only supported Microsoft PowerShell IDE, VS Code does not play nice with PowerShell. For example, if I open Code, it opens three(3!) PowerShell terminals for unfathomable reasons. One of those starts with errors, the other works, but the third one is the default and crashes if you look at it sideways. Tab-complete just... stops. Even when tab-complete "works", it'll often start mid way through the list, hiding all of the relevant items and showing your random garbage like "quick start snippets" that make zero sense in the given tab-complete context.
I could rant for hours on how poor the Visual Studio Code quality is, but nobody will listen, because for people upgrading from Notepad, it's the second coming of Jesus.
Then there's always the smart-ass that explains patiently that this is all my fault for not "customising" my VS Code experience with JSON configuration settings that are seven levels deep and documented only in some blog article from three years ago. Meanwhile, I've never had to customise anything in Visual Studio. It "just works" the way you'd expect a Windows application to work. Not some Linux-Windows hybrid intended to be the "embrace" part of the unholy "embrace-extend-extinguish" trio.
There are a ton of editors both free and paid for that niche you mentioned. Visual Studio code wasn't even the first one made with Electron, there was one called Atom before it. I have used and continue to use Sublime Text, and at work they install Notepad++ on all computers by default.
I guess though if you're coming from raw notepad then that is a step up.
And with anything "browser based" like VS Code you're going to always spawn a ton of processes to do even the simplest things.
I guess though if you're coming from raw notepad then that is a step up.
And with anything "browser based" like VS Code you're going to always spawn a ton of processes to do even the simplest things.
> For people like me forced to come over from Visual Studio and other editors, it's a huge step down.
Sure, if your entire usage is the stuff that VS does well (which is a very narrow range compared to Code), and you are used to VS, it's probably an annoyance.
> I could rant for hours on how poor the Visual Studio Code quality is, but nobody will listen, because for people upgrading from Notepad, it's the second coming of Jesus.
Almost none of the things I do with Code I would have done with Notepad before. There are lots of non-IDE programmers editors that existed before Code. It may not be as good as VS or some IntelliJ variants for the use cases those IDEs are best for, but it's better for almost everything else than almost anything, and even for the things those major commercial IDEs specialize in, it's good enough for lots of specific use cases that when you need to do that plus other things, the context switch of using the commercial IDE for some tasks isn't worth it.
Sure, if your entire usage is the stuff that VS does well (which is a very narrow range compared to Code), and you are used to VS, it's probably an annoyance.
> I could rant for hours on how poor the Visual Studio Code quality is, but nobody will listen, because for people upgrading from Notepad, it's the second coming of Jesus.
Almost none of the things I do with Code I would have done with Notepad before. There are lots of non-IDE programmers editors that existed before Code. It may not be as good as VS or some IntelliJ variants for the use cases those IDEs are best for, but it's better for almost everything else than almost anything, and even for the things those major commercial IDEs specialize in, it's good enough for lots of specific use cases that when you need to do that plus other things, the context switch of using the commercial IDE for some tasks isn't worth it.
I don't think the (not very good) PowerShell extension is a great basis for judging VS Code as a whole.
I've spent most of my career in Visual Studio, I have a great deal of respect for how it just works, nobody's forcing me to leave it and yet... I'm mostly done with it. I'd rather use VS Code for C# development these days; it nails a lot of speed+UX things that Visual Studio doesn't.
I've spent most of my career in Visual Studio, I have a great deal of respect for how it just works, nobody's forcing me to leave it and yet... I'm mostly done with it. I'd rather use VS Code for C# development these days; it nails a lot of speed+UX things that Visual Studio doesn't.
Well, from his point of view he's right to judge it, since he's being forced to use it and it's crap for his use case, extensions or not.
Popular is not the same as quality. That's something that MS seem genuinely unable to understand - examples of a better product are countered with "our product is X times bigger, it is better". Well, no - X times bigger is probably momentum, or network effect, or sneaky placement/contracts - it has nothing to so with the quality of the product.
Similar "well liked" very often really means "the only product I've used" or "the only product I know well" :(
Similar "well liked" very often really means "the only product I've used" or "the only product I know well" :(
That consumes a full core for intellisense the entire time it's running if you have a large c++ codebase.
There is no supported GUI framework that isn't a dead-end, formally unsupported, or restricted to "mobile phone app" levels.
Win32?
Win32?
Dead end.
I wouldn't say that, it's basically what keeps Windows alive.
Win32 is on life support. Many new features added since Vista don't work with it at all, or require complex code to enable in Win32 apps.
They surely do, because COM is part of Win32.
Now I admit it is a bit more complex than calling C functions, but only if one insists in calling COM from C.
Now I admit it is a bit more complex than calling C functions, but only if one insists in calling COM from C.
I got the impression that Windows used to make APIs so that others could use the same UI elements as the OS in their programs. Have they stopped doing that?
More or less... yes.
Win32 was the one and only GUI framework. If you wrote your app for Windows, it would look like Windows. This was true for Windows NT, Windows 2000, and XP.
Then Office got the Ribbon UI but they decided not to let anyone else use it. Then Vista got the Windows Presentation Foundation (WPF), which was a lot like HTML, but used XML and had a more powerful styling+templating system. At one point they even tried to make JavaScript Windows applications a thing over a decade before it unfortunately did become a thing (Electron).
The problem is that WPF, like HTML, allowed nearly "anything". You could style any control any way that you wanted. So WPF apps looked somewhat... random.
Worse, it turned out that WPF was just too slow for applications, to the point that Microsoft themselves almost never used it. Instead, they used incompatible bits and pieces of it with C++ so that they could have something reasonably fast. But this wasn't WPF, and didn't look the same as user apps, and wasn't even internally consistent!
Now there are something like 10+ UI frameworks from Microsoft alone, not including third-party ones that can run on Windows.
This is why the Windows 11 interface is such a mess.
Win32 was the one and only GUI framework. If you wrote your app for Windows, it would look like Windows. This was true for Windows NT, Windows 2000, and XP.
Then Office got the Ribbon UI but they decided not to let anyone else use it. Then Vista got the Windows Presentation Foundation (WPF), which was a lot like HTML, but used XML and had a more powerful styling+templating system. At one point they even tried to make JavaScript Windows applications a thing over a decade before it unfortunately did become a thing (Electron).
The problem is that WPF, like HTML, allowed nearly "anything". You could style any control any way that you wanted. So WPF apps looked somewhat... random.
Worse, it turned out that WPF was just too slow for applications, to the point that Microsoft themselves almost never used it. Instead, they used incompatible bits and pieces of it with C++ so that they could have something reasonably fast. But this wasn't WPF, and didn't look the same as user apps, and wasn't even internally consistent!
Now there are something like 10+ UI frameworks from Microsoft alone, not including third-party ones that can run on Windows.
This is why the Windows 11 interface is such a mess.
Ribbon UI is availabe in Win32 as a COM library.
Vulkan tooling is still quite poor when compared with DirectX, thanks the way Khronos always leaves to the community to do the needfull.
Hot reloading with C++ outside Visual Studio? Good luck with that if not willing to shell out some bucks for Live++.
Other frameworks are still relearning the ways of WPF and Blend tooling.
Many things make me angry how Microsoft management is dealing with them, yet the alternatives are even worse.
Only the Java ecosystem is a sound alternative to MS tooling, regardless of their current misdirection.
Hot reloading with C++ outside Visual Studio? Good luck with that if not willing to shell out some bucks for Live++.
Other frameworks are still relearning the ways of WPF and Blend tooling.
Many things make me angry how Microsoft management is dealing with them, yet the alternatives are even worse.
Only the Java ecosystem is a sound alternative to MS tooling, regardless of their current misdirection.
To your point, the Programs and Features section of the Windows 11 Control Panel no longer lists Microsoft Teams as a product that can be uninstalled.
To be fair, that legacy control panel doesn't list any apps that use the AppX/MSIX packaging model introduced with Windows 8. I'm still not on Windows 11, so I don't know if Teams is listed in the newer list of apps available in modern Settings, but it's worth looking there.
There are loads of "modern" apps that can't be uninstalled from Win10. Some are in the list but you're not allowed; some aren't in the list.
But it's easy to copy-and-paste a bit of Powershell and just uninstall them anyway:
https://www.techsupportall.com/uninstall-built-apps-windows-...
There are 3rd party tools too: https://www.howtogeek.com/224798/how-to-uninstall-windows-10...
But it's easy to copy-and-paste a bit of Powershell and just uninstall them anyway:
https://www.techsupportall.com/uninstall-built-apps-windows-...
There are 3rd party tools too: https://www.howtogeek.com/224798/how-to-uninstall-windows-10...
"Microsoft Teams" is present for in Settings -> Apps -> Apps & Features on Win11 for me. But given how they're integrating Teams into the OS, I wouldn't be surprised if I lose the ability to uninstall it soon.
The fact that they are making that huge hunk of trash a core part of Windows tells me everything I need to know about the direction they are headed into. How does anybody put up with Windows in 2022?
They deliberately gray out and disable the button that works for every other application if I recall correctly.
Would be interestng to know how many non-enterprise Windows users have ever made a direct payment to Microsoft. For that segment, the company suffers from the same problem as "tech" companies. The non-enterprise Windows user is not the customer.
Identitities and personal information are a Microsoft product. Some of that personal data is acquired through Windows or other software and some is acquired through acquisitions of "tech" companies such as LinkedIn.
Identitities and personal information are a Microsoft product. Some of that personal data is acquired through Windows or other software and some is acquired through acquisitions of "tech" companies such as LinkedIn.
since the announcement that windows 11 will require a microsoft account to install, I've decided that windows 10 is the last version of windows I will use for my personal computers. Your description of microsoft's opinion of their customers ('nobody at microsoft...actually cares') is apt.
I wonder if that will be true of the Enterprise LTSC/LTSB version.
They are doing this with Teams and it gets better, it’s a different Teams than normal that looks the same but only accepts personal MS accounts not business / 365 ones. WTF?
Nobody has figured out how to get the old windows ink back, unfortunately.
I basically lost the reason for having a windows touch+pen input screen:/ and nobody has found out how to get the killer app back.
I suspect that only pre-windows 8 good features will be retained over time
I basically lost the reason for having a windows touch+pen input screen:/ and nobody has found out how to get the killer app back.
I suspect that only pre-windows 8 good features will be retained over time
Windows Ink? Do you mean Windows Ink Workspace or Windows Sketchpad?
It was Windows Sketchpad that I really loved. After Microsoft axed it, they released Whiteboard. It felt very... not-native but had the titlebar of a UWP app. It was terrible compared to Sketchpad but new functionality like being able to select elements and reposition and resize them was great. UWP's own restrictions meant I could set certain expectations with windowing and suspension. And then they made Whiteboard a pure Electron app which was just too choppy for drawing anything at all. The closest I found to replacements were Inkodo and Scrble.
Windows Ink was just one of Microsoft's phases, just like XR. They now refuse to add support for a partial eraser in WinUI.
It was Windows Sketchpad that I really loved. After Microsoft axed it, they released Whiteboard. It felt very... not-native but had the titlebar of a UWP app. It was terrible compared to Sketchpad but new functionality like being able to select elements and reposition and resize them was great. UWP's own restrictions meant I could set certain expectations with windowing and suspension. And then they made Whiteboard a pure Electron app which was just too choppy for drawing anything at all. The closest I found to replacements were Inkodo and Scrble.
Windows Ink was just one of Microsoft's phases, just like XR. They now refuse to add support for a partial eraser in WinUI.
Windows and macOS users have different expectations. On a Mac, I expect my login account to also know my Apple ID and connect seamlessly with my iCloud, Apple TV, Apple Music, Messages, and all other Apple cloud services. I like being able to answer phone calls on the computer when the phone is nearby. When Microsoft tries to make Windows more Mac-like, it faces a couple problems - not everyone wants to be on Skype or Teams - some people use Zoom or Slack. To make things worse, even Microsoft products are not well integrated into the platform. Depending on how I open a SharePoint document, I can either have another Edge window, with an online version of an Office app or the standalone app opening (with different UI conventions on how shared edits work).
The article mentions the backwards compatibility. Honestly, it never occurred to me to run a binary compiled for Windows 95 on Windows 11 (or 10, which is where I am now). It also mentions dual booting, which is something completely alien to me - this is what VMs are for. When I needed to run Windows on either my Mac or my Linux box, I'd just spin up a small VM with enough brains to run what I needed.
And, since we are talking VMs, WSL 2 is a horrible user experienced compared to a real Linux environment - file sharing with the Windows side is clunkier than it was with WSL 1 (as things don't exist on a single filesystem, and that silly CRLF convention is what Windows expects) or even the venerable Cygwin (which saved me many times when I needed to use a Windows machine). With Macs and Linux you have full Unix environments without any border separating you from the rest of the machine.
The article mentions the backwards compatibility. Honestly, it never occurred to me to run a binary compiled for Windows 95 on Windows 11 (or 10, which is where I am now). It also mentions dual booting, which is something completely alien to me - this is what VMs are for. When I needed to run Windows on either my Mac or my Linux box, I'd just spin up a small VM with enough brains to run what I needed.
And, since we are talking VMs, WSL 2 is a horrible user experienced compared to a real Linux environment - file sharing with the Windows side is clunkier than it was with WSL 1 (as things don't exist on a single filesystem, and that silly CRLF convention is what Windows expects) or even the venerable Cygwin (which saved me many times when I needed to use a Windows machine). With Macs and Linux you have full Unix environments without any border separating you from the rest of the machine.
Yeah I expect that my MacBook, Mac Mini, IPad and IPhone are all connected. I can open up browser tabs from one device to the other, take phone calls or send texts, not have to worry about sharing passwords etc.
I expect, want in fact, none of these things on my Windows PC. I do not trust Microsoft with my data, and this was before the last year of them being owned. It may not be right or even logical, but I imagine a ton of other users fit this same archetype. To me windows is the spyware ridden OS I use to pay a handful of games, and it basically always will be.
I expect, want in fact, none of these things on my Windows PC. I do not trust Microsoft with my data, and this was before the last year of them being owned. It may not be right or even logical, but I imagine a ton of other users fit this same archetype. To me windows is the spyware ridden OS I use to pay a handful of games, and it basically always will be.
> Honestly, it never occurred to me to run a binary compiled for Windows 95 on Windows 11 (or 10, which is where I am now).
How do you know you aren't regularly running one (or more) of those? Or at least some stuff last updated sometime between W2K and W7?
How do you know you aren't regularly running one (or more) of those? Or at least some stuff last updated sometime between W2K and W7?
> When Microsoft tries to make Windows more Mac-like
Just a consideration: Aren't nearly all users who love the Apple/Mac experience already in the Apple ecosystem? In other words: Should Microsoft not rather assume that making Windows more Mac-like might be a bad idea considering their core customers?
Just a consideration: Aren't nearly all users who love the Apple/Mac experience already in the Apple ecosystem? In other words: Should Microsoft not rather assume that making Windows more Mac-like might be a bad idea considering their core customers?
> Aren't nearly all users who love the Apple/Mac experience already in the Apple ecosystem?
Not sure. Macs are not that available and, in some places, are prohibitively expensive. Others would love the everything-integrated experience while using software that runs only on Windows.
I'm not sure Microsoft even has that "core customer" as neatly defined as Apple (or Linux). Getting a Mac or a Linux box is a deliberate action, whilst, for the end user, getting a Windows box is the default when you get a "generic" computer.
One group I can think of is the corporate administrators, who want to deliver a locked down set of functions to corporate workstations - VPN settings, firewalls, blocked websites, custom update schedules, and so on. That same crowd also orders Macs and Chromebooks with the same goals.
What Microsoft can do is to offer tailored experiences for specific groups - people who want everything to just work (who'll be happy with Skype logging them on on boot, with OneDrive backing stuff up...), gamers who'll definitely not want Skype to interrupt them and who have nothing to back up to OneDrive, but, sometimes, want to record and stream their games, Windows developers who'll spend most of their time within Visual Studio and the MSDN KB (am I dating myself here?), and so on. I'm very sure they have a list of personas already built for that.
Not sure. Macs are not that available and, in some places, are prohibitively expensive. Others would love the everything-integrated experience while using software that runs only on Windows.
I'm not sure Microsoft even has that "core customer" as neatly defined as Apple (or Linux). Getting a Mac or a Linux box is a deliberate action, whilst, for the end user, getting a Windows box is the default when you get a "generic" computer.
One group I can think of is the corporate administrators, who want to deliver a locked down set of functions to corporate workstations - VPN settings, firewalls, blocked websites, custom update schedules, and so on. That same crowd also orders Macs and Chromebooks with the same goals.
What Microsoft can do is to offer tailored experiences for specific groups - people who want everything to just work (who'll be happy with Skype logging them on on boot, with OneDrive backing stuff up...), gamers who'll definitely not want Skype to interrupt them and who have nothing to back up to OneDrive, but, sometimes, want to record and stream their games, Windows developers who'll spend most of their time within Visual Studio and the MSDN KB (am I dating myself here?), and so on. I'm very sure they have a list of personas already built for that.
> I'm very sure they have a list of personas already built for that.
At least considering the product policy that Microsoft currently applies to Windows, I tend to doubt that. ;-)
At least considering the product policy that Microsoft currently applies to Windows, I tend to doubt that. ;-)
It depends on the direction Windows itself wants to go in really. This isn’t the early 2000s where Windows was the used OS everywhere and was some hyperpower among software. Most apps are cross platform and there is a healthy ecosystem of OSs. Microsoft can let itself be the gaming and office PC, it can attempt to remain being the jack of all trades and master of none, or it could plot its own new course. I think either way they’ll have plenty of costumers.
As the techie helping my folks with their Windows issue, it was far easier and better for my mental health to spend my own money buying everyone chromebooks and ipads.
Is it nobody cares or they care about different things? If you want to be cynical, they care about making money. But could it also be that they're more focused on the general population (who don't care as much about this stuff)?
It's hard to tell for me to be honest, but are we (e.g. HN crowd) just a minority of power users that are in our own echo chamber complaining and making us happy doesn't really move the needle for MSFT?
It's hard to tell for me to be honest, but are we (e.g. HN crowd) just a minority of power users that are in our own echo chamber complaining and making us happy doesn't really move the needle for MSFT?
As far as the Skype thing is concerned, isn't that the exact thing they got sued for with Explorer for in the 90's?... or somewhat similar?
It is, as is the embedding of Edge as a default browser. The attitude seems to be that it doesn't matter anymore or that it's worth doing even if they do get in trouble.
They're all paid up on their bribes now so they aren't worried. What's a bit of monopolistic and anticompetitive behavior when you've got a few Senators and other Bedfellows in your pockets?
I don't even know what is my microsoft account anymore. I have created so many for so many services and devices over the years that I don't have a "main" one anymore.
So every new install is a crapshot, I try to go local account only, but something gets in the way and I end up creating yet another one for that specific device.
It's madness.
So every new install is a crapshot, I try to go local account only, but something gets in the way and I end up creating yet another one for that specific device.
It's madness.
I think any developer that could long moved from their ecosystems by now. You can see that if you try to get technical knowledge.
I can imagine that there are many departments that have to continually justify their existence and management tries to find the one-hit wonder that gets users engaged. All these departments try to have their dejure product integrated into Windows to have a chance to pump up their KPI.
You should be able to tell an operating system that it is not allowed to phone home. That is not possible in Windows, on the contrary, they have increased their spying dramatically. It has been a adversarial relationship for a long time by now and I don't see any attempts to change course or anyone that really cares for the platform. Their corporate integration and PC gaming keeps Windows relevant for now, but people will look elsewhere.
I can imagine that there are many departments that have to continually justify their existence and management tries to find the one-hit wonder that gets users engaged. All these departments try to have their dejure product integrated into Windows to have a chance to pump up their KPI.
You should be able to tell an operating system that it is not allowed to phone home. That is not possible in Windows, on the contrary, they have increased their spying dramatically. It has been a adversarial relationship for a long time by now and I don't see any attempts to change course or anyone that really cares for the platform. Their corporate integration and PC gaming keeps Windows relevant for now, but people will look elsewhere.
Even on Linux, when I use the Teams Electron program (app? website in a dress?), it comes up in the PulseAudio mixer as Skype.
I dont think it is contempt for the users, It is more that consumers (i.e non-enterprise editions of windows) is the Beta Test group for windows
Microsoft has always been, and will always be an enterprise company, they do not care about Consumers, and they do not care about SMB business. they care about Large Enterprise.
I have seen it countless times in my career, SMB space and can be complaining up a storm about a problem for years but until some 20,000+ employee CTO has the problem MS will not give it the time of day.
It is all numbers, and if you are not a government or Large corporation Microsoft does not give you the time of day
Microsoft has always been, and will always be an enterprise company, they do not care about Consumers, and they do not care about SMB business. they care about Large Enterprise.
I have seen it countless times in my career, SMB space and can be complaining up a storm about a problem for years but until some 20,000+ employee CTO has the problem MS will not give it the time of day.
It is all numbers, and if you are not a government or Large corporation Microsoft does not give you the time of day
You've just described the passive side of "contempt."
You are not the target audience for Microsoft, the corporation is. Who uses a home computer anymore? (it's all smart phones now) You start work, you get a pre-installed Windows laptop to use by the corporate IT department, configured to be used as they see fit. You no longer own a computer. Nobody is expected to, these days.
> Who uses a home computer anymore?
Me (but not Windows), my three grown children, my sister, at least one brother in law. At least half of the people I know personally. Half of them using laptops, the rest desktop machines. All of them have smartphones, and sometimes tablets, as well.
Me (but not Windows), my three grown children, my sister, at least one brother in law. At least half of the people I know personally. Half of them using laptops, the rest desktop machines. All of them have smartphones, and sometimes tablets, as well.
I think combining Macbooks and gaming PCs then home computers are being used more than ever, but I'm not sure, it's true that you don't need one to browse facebook anymore. But at the same time I don't know anyone without a laptop.
This article nails a lot of the issues with Windows 11.
I bit the bullet and upgraded to Windows 11 late last year thinking it must be an improvement over Windows 10. It turned out to be a big step backwards.
- Changing the default browser is a lot of work instead of a single click.
- I can't move the task bar to the side, even though almost every monitor nowadays has much more horizontal space than vertical.
- All apps are not readily accessible from the start menu; I have to click another button to get to them.
- I have a 2-in-1 laptop, and turning it into tablet mode is wonky.
- I can't choose to not have grouped buttons on the taskbar.
- The context menus UX is horrible. Some context menu items are now two clicks away instead of one. Also what's with the excessive rounded corners and slim selection padding?
- The stacked notifications is confusing, and always shows the calendar when I open the notifications panel.
- Lots of crap pushed on me, like chat (aka Teams), widgets (which require a Microsoft account), 3rd party apps that look like they're installed but actually get downloaded/installed on first use.
I was able to fix a lot of those issues with ExplorerPatcher [0]. However, one day after a Windows update, Explorer didn't start at all after login (black screen, I thought Windows was hosed). This has since been fixed. But I decided enough is enough, and finally "upgraded" back to Windows 10.
The only good thing about Windows 11 is wslg, which provides out of the box support for Linux GUI apps (not available on Windows 10). But I can get the same result with an X server and some work.
[0] https://github.com/valinet/ExplorerPatcher/wiki/All-features
I bit the bullet and upgraded to Windows 11 late last year thinking it must be an improvement over Windows 10. It turned out to be a big step backwards.
- Changing the default browser is a lot of work instead of a single click.
- I can't move the task bar to the side, even though almost every monitor nowadays has much more horizontal space than vertical.
- All apps are not readily accessible from the start menu; I have to click another button to get to them.
- I have a 2-in-1 laptop, and turning it into tablet mode is wonky.
- I can't choose to not have grouped buttons on the taskbar.
- The context menus UX is horrible. Some context menu items are now two clicks away instead of one. Also what's with the excessive rounded corners and slim selection padding?
- The stacked notifications is confusing, and always shows the calendar when I open the notifications panel.
- Lots of crap pushed on me, like chat (aka Teams), widgets (which require a Microsoft account), 3rd party apps that look like they're installed but actually get downloaded/installed on first use.
I was able to fix a lot of those issues with ExplorerPatcher [0]. However, one day after a Windows update, Explorer didn't start at all after login (black screen, I thought Windows was hosed). This has since been fixed. But I decided enough is enough, and finally "upgraded" back to Windows 10.
The only good thing about Windows 11 is wslg, which provides out of the box support for Linux GUI apps (not available on Windows 10). But I can get the same result with an X server and some work.
[0] https://github.com/valinet/ExplorerPatcher/wiki/All-features
I have a theory that the people who used the bar on the side and the people who turned the user metrics off are the same people (myself included). But I’m not sure how I feel about the results.
In any case I hope shells like litestep make a comeback as a result of ever more hostile ui decisions, either that or everyone jumps ship entirely to put energy into making something else great.
> I have a theory that the people who used the bar on the side and the people who turned the user metrics off are the same people (myself included)
I keep telemetry enabled in Firefox in the hope that they see that I use all of the features that they later remove anyway. It seems like nobody is using metrics to prove that it's not safe to remove a feature. Or they say "oh, it's only 1% of users using that feature", not realizing how much 1% really is.
I keep telemetry enabled in Firefox in the hope that they see that I use all of the features that they later remove anyway. It seems like nobody is using metrics to prove that it's not safe to remove a feature. Or they say "oh, it's only 1% of users using that feature", not realizing how much 1% really is.
I still miss Firefox's "View Image" context menu option. There is no suitable replacement. No, I do not want to open the image in a new tab. No, I do not want to use some janky extension that re-implements it but places the option at the very bottom of the context menu.
What did "View Image" do? I only know "Open Image in new Tab"
Exactly that, minus opening it in a new tab. It opened in the same tab (and maybe new tab if you middle-clicked the menu item? I don't quite remember).
Left clicking on "View Image" would open it in the current tab, Middle clicking on it would open it in a new tab. I used both options regularly.
Opened the image in the same tab so you could go back. It was just more convenient, especially when you already had a ton of tabs open.
I understand. That's for sure more convenient. I really miss one feature of Safari: When something triggers a new Tab open and you do swipe right to go back in history, it actually closes the new opened tab. That's in generally very convenient
I don't use telemetry in the hopes that they'll see that only X% of users use telemetry and that they thus remove telemetry as a feature.
Not working well so far.
Not working well so far.
To be fair, it's hard to see how many users are not using telemetry when they're not using telemetry.
The problem is that Windows with all its warts now is still far ahead of the competition in that department (desktop GUI). Whether that's due to monopoly or being actually better, it doesn't matter. The fact is competition is almost non-existent.
I don't think that's true anymore. Gnome with two tweaks (put the min/max buttons back on the window header and move the main menu to the bottom of the screen so it works like the old win 10 task bar) and it's streets ahead of Windows 11. It's a great blessing in disguise when Microsoft decide your old laptop won't support Windows 11.
The article mentioned all the UI generations you can find in Windows. Linux is even worse. Once you leave the menus your desktop environment provides, it becomes a design free for all. Sometimes you'll see UI styles from another environment (run Kompare in Gnome), sometimes you get ancient X UIs.
I get your point and I'd raise you the suite of Microsoft products:
- Word, PowerPoint, Excel, all one style - Teams, different style - Notepad, different style - Paint, different style
That's just within the MS ecosystem, leave that ecosystem and you rapidly find the same style mess that you get on Linux. It's basically due to the many different GUI frameworks, not the OS itself, hell MS supplies a whole list of frameworks that look different from each other.
Even MacOS/iOS which are _really_ good at having a cohesive UI style suffer from this problem.
I'd argue that if this is a valid complaint with Linux DEs (be it GNOME/KDE/what have you) then it's an equally valid complaint for Windows.
- Word, PowerPoint, Excel, all one style - Teams, different style - Notepad, different style - Paint, different style
That's just within the MS ecosystem, leave that ecosystem and you rapidly find the same style mess that you get on Linux. It's basically due to the many different GUI frameworks, not the OS itself, hell MS supplies a whole list of frameworks that look different from each other.
Even MacOS/iOS which are _really_ good at having a cohesive UI style suffer from this problem.
I'd argue that if this is a valid complaint with Linux DEs (be it GNOME/KDE/what have you) then it's an equally valid complaint for Windows.
If GNOME bundled Kompare or other KDE programs you might have a point. You wouldn't blame Apple for the look of LibreOffice on macOS so why blame GNOME for the non-GNOME programs?
The GP wasn't blaming Gnome, they were complaining about the Linux GUI desktop in general. Running a KDE app on Gnome was just an example; they could just as well have mentioned the opposite and still not be "complaining about KDE ".
Gnome has very excessive window borders though. They're so big they seem to be sized for touch, very wasteful when you don't have a touchscreen.
And it has even less configurability than Windows.. Add-ons don't count because they often break.
And it has even less configurability than Windows.. Add-ons don't count because they often break.
I don't mind the big borders, although most of the time I'm using dual 2k screens.
The borders don't seem that much bigger than the ones in Windows 10. As for the extensions, I've been enabling those via extensions.gnome.org and have no problems so far on Buster or Bullseye.
This is the one that makes Gnome useable for me:
https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/1160/dash-to-panel/
The borders don't seem that much bigger than the ones in Windows 10. As for the extensions, I've been enabling those via extensions.gnome.org and have no problems so far on Buster or Bullseye.
This is the one that makes Gnome useable for me:
https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/1160/dash-to-panel/
[deleted]
Dash-to-panel helps, but it doesn't go far enough for me. It doesn't work well in vertical orientations: for instance, status icons should be arranged in horizontal rows. In a single column they take up far too much space.
Cinnamon suffers from the same problem, FWIW.
Cinnamon suffers from the same problem, FWIW.
Wait, is streets ahead a real saying? I thought Pierce on Community invented it.
Very common in British English.
Dunno - I never watched community but I can't remember where I picked it up. Might be a commonwealth thing.
edit: google says "british". In fairly common use in Australia.
edit: google says "british". In fairly common use in Australia.
If you have to ask, you're streets behind.
In what ways is Windows desktop GUI better than macOS?
The only thing Windows has going for itself is backwards compatability.
The only thing Windows has going for itself is backwards compatability.
In my opinion, Window management on Mac is bad compared with everything that isn't Mac. On the other hand, there's lots to like about Macs, so I keep using them.
Spectacle used to fix that, until it went EOL.
https://www.spectacleapp.com/
So I switched to Rectangle, which has optional Spectacle-compatible keybindings. https://github.com/rxhanson/Rectangle
I also add RightZoom: https://www.blazingtools.com/right_zoom_mac.html
With them, window management becomes basically as good as any other desktop I use, and delivers most of what I like from tiling WMs.
So I switched to Rectangle, which has optional Spectacle-compatible keybindings. https://github.com/rxhanson/Rectangle
I also add RightZoom: https://www.blazingtools.com/right_zoom_mac.html
With them, window management becomes basically as good as any other desktop I use, and delivers most of what I like from tiling WMs.
That's a pretty big thing.
I'm still using programs daily that I acquired in the 90's,some of which was last updated in the 90s.
Updating the OS is one thing, there will be change, and none of us likes change, but it doesn't cascade down to having to change every detail of my work flow.
So maybe it's the only thing Windows has, but for me anyway it's a pretty big "only".
I'm still using programs daily that I acquired in the 90's,some of which was last updated in the 90s.
Updating the OS is one thing, there will be change, and none of us likes change, but it doesn't cascade down to having to change every detail of my work flow.
So maybe it's the only thing Windows has, but for me anyway it's a pretty big "only".
> That's a pretty big thing.
It's also the bane of its existence, because it means that they can NEVER retire anything, because by doing so they would break backwards compatability.
And that's actually how we ended up here. They can never get rid of even Win16 GUI (let alone Win32) because it would break shit written for Windows 3.1 (yes, there are still some dialogs in Windows 11 that use Windows 3.1 file select dialog, namely the ODBC Data Source Administrator (32-bit)[0].
So they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Win32 isn't being used for anything they are making now, but it's used by other people, and more importantly it's used by all the old apps.
So now they have to justify ETERNAL support for an essentially deprecated API. Which they obviously aren't doing, which is why we're here.
> I'm still using programs daily that I acquired in the 90's,some of which was last updated in the 90s.
Unless they are extremely domain specific, surely there are modern alternatives?
[0] https://i.imgur.com/MrvLCSr.png
It's also the bane of its existence, because it means that they can NEVER retire anything, because by doing so they would break backwards compatability.
And that's actually how we ended up here. They can never get rid of even Win16 GUI (let alone Win32) because it would break shit written for Windows 3.1 (yes, there are still some dialogs in Windows 11 that use Windows 3.1 file select dialog, namely the ODBC Data Source Administrator (32-bit)[0].
So they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Win32 isn't being used for anything they are making now, but it's used by other people, and more importantly it's used by all the old apps.
So now they have to justify ETERNAL support for an essentially deprecated API. Which they obviously aren't doing, which is why we're here.
> I'm still using programs daily that I acquired in the 90's,some of which was last updated in the 90s.
Unless they are extremely domain specific, surely there are modern alternatives?
[0] https://i.imgur.com/MrvLCSr.png
Actually windows 64 bit won't run 16 bit programs, that part has been gone for a decade or so.
Yes there are probably alternatives, but that's the point, I like the way it's working now - I don't want to find new equivalents and then discover what's missing from them.
But I'm not sure what the existance of win32 has to do with anything - it's not like it stops win64 from working.
Yes there are probably alternatives, but that's the point, I like the way it's working now - I don't want to find new equivalents and then discover what's missing from them.
But I'm not sure what the existance of win32 has to do with anything - it's not like it stops win64 from working.
I can't speak for Windows 11 as I didn't use it, but Windows 10 feels better. macOS feels very dumbed down and Apple takes decisions instead of letting the user do it.
You also can't run macOS on most hardware, so...
I say KDE is the best desktop if they could just get their shit together and debug it on all hardware configurations. It's absolutely miles ahead of Windows in features, however, as a power user I can fix it if it gets wonky, but a regular user shouldn't be expected to.
> The problem is that Windows with all its warts now is still far ahead of the competition in that department (desktop GUI)
Same with Windows Explorer. Finder in macOS is still terribly crippled compared to it:
-It can't even perform folder merges in many cases, only allowing you to "Replace" the entire folder.
-You can't pause/resume file transfers.
-Cancelling large transfers is like canceling a print job in the 00's - it might cancel, but if it does it will be when 95% of the job is done anyway and you're screwed.
-You aren't shown metadata of any files you are prompted about.
-Batch management of file conflicts/actions not possible.
Most of these features were added to Explorer all the way back in Vista 15 years ago.
Same with Windows Explorer. Finder in macOS is still terribly crippled compared to it:
-It can't even perform folder merges in many cases, only allowing you to "Replace" the entire folder.
-You can't pause/resume file transfers.
-Cancelling large transfers is like canceling a print job in the 00's - it might cancel, but if it does it will be when 95% of the job is done anyway and you're screwed.
-You aren't shown metadata of any files you are prompted about.
-Batch management of file conflicts/actions not possible.
Most of these features were added to Explorer all the way back in Vista 15 years ago.
GNOME is way better the Windows UI, checked out what options there where when win11 came out and i have been on fedora ever since, really modern UI and none of the Microsoft bs
Windows 7 was a GUI horror show compared to pretty much anything else at the time. Ugly font rendering, e.g. Especially if you have a ton of open windows, Windows has always been amazingly bad at helping the user manage them. Multiple / desktops can finally be enabled since Windows 10 (without hackery), but are still a pain. The font rendering has improved but is nowhere near MacOS. I could go on for a while. In my experience, the only people who think Windows has superior GUI have never truly worked with other desktops.
Totally disagree with that
Plasma Gnome MacOS Windows
That would be my pick top to bottom of best UIs
Windows is a shambles and it mentally destroys a piece of me everytime I use it
Plasma Gnome MacOS Windows
That would be my pick top to bottom of best UIs
Windows is a shambles and it mentally destroys a piece of me everytime I use it
[deleted]
Reason driven decision making is better than data driven decision making.
Also what's with the excessive rounded corners and slim selection padding?
The people who worked on the design use Macs. Seriously.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30019307
The people who worked on the design use Macs. Seriously.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30019307
This is the most embarrassing thing I've ever read. That thread goes on to extoll the virtues of dogfooding, and its absolutely true.
I personally believe the reason that chrome/edge/firefox and apps in general have become so resource hungry is because all the devs have been given beefy machines to allow them to compile on-device and this has lead to the devs basically ignoring the app's resource budget. The ultimate "it works on my machine" shrug. imo windows OS and browser devs should be given i3s w/4gb of ram, let them optimize their code for that experience.
I personally believe the reason that chrome/edge/firefox and apps in general have become so resource hungry is because all the devs have been given beefy machines to allow them to compile on-device and this has lead to the devs basically ignoring the app's resource budget. The ultimate "it works on my machine" shrug. imo windows OS and browser devs should be given i3s w/4gb of ram, let them optimize their code for that experience.
> windows OS and browser devs should be given i3s w/4gb of ram
And slow HDDs. The gains of going from an HDD to an SSD have been squandered. The time it takes my computer to boot to a usable desktop feels the same as the bad old days with spinning HDDs.
I remember when SSDs where new and YouTubers were making videos of booting into Win7 with Office, etc. open in seconds. WTF happened?
And slow HDDs. The gains of going from an HDD to an SSD have been squandered. The time it takes my computer to boot to a usable desktop feels the same as the bad old days with spinning HDDs.
I remember when SSDs where new and YouTubers were making videos of booting into Win7 with Office, etc. open in seconds. WTF happened?
You know the saying "work expands to fill the time available for its completion"? There's a similar thing at play here with regards to resource usage.
I still boot in seconds with Windows 10 and NVMe disks.
Wait a few years until it's undoed.
My fairly high-end system with NVMe drives is absurdly slow at booting to my minimal Arch Linux installation's (tty) login screen. And I'm not some anti-systemd evangelist, but it certainly doesn't seem to be helping matters. Once the kernel starts being loaded, it shouldn't take more than a couple more seconds to get to login.
Windows with i5 or less plus HDD with about a year of use (which leads to bloat) is painfully slow.
Yup, I got a relatively new AIO from work for free, set it up as an all purpose media machine in the kitchen, but no one ever used it bec it was so slow, after about a yr of aggravation I decided to check the specs, had an HDD, I replaced it with a cheap sata SSD, now it purrs.
When I first heard about this, everything that's ever bothered me about the Windows 8-10-11 evolution makes so much more sense. They're turning it into MacOS.
But only the bad parts of MacOS - they make something that looks pretty in an image, but is utterly unusable.
The way I usually describe Win11's UI is as the worst of GNOME 3, MacOS, and Windows bundled up in a wrap of spyware.
The way I usually describe Win11's UI is as the worst of GNOME 3, MacOS, and Windows bundled up in a wrap of spyware.
The Macification of Windows has been in progress for years -- and it makes no sense! When Microsoft designed the UI for Windows 95 they did extensive user studies and everything from how the start menu worked and the task bar was carefully figured out.
They've spend the last few decades undoing all that work piece by piece until nobody actually knows how to use it anymore.
They've spend the last few decades undoing all that work piece by piece until nobody actually knows how to use it anymore.
If anyone is wondering about the user studies that Microsoft did for Windows 95, you can read about it here: https://web.archive.org/web/20060615110538/http://www.acm.or...
Windows 95 is under-appreciated in the GUI histories I feel - it had many things that became 'standard' pretty much immediately afterwards (I even have a shortcut to Applications in my Dock which mimics a Start Menu).
But it's hard for a company to justify "paying to leave shit alone" so even if a maximum was reached, it will recede.
But it's hard for a company to justify "paying to leave shit alone" so even if a maximum was reached, it will recede.
I agree. There's a lot of people paid to re-design Windows every year, they all use Macs, and none of them are doing any user studies at all.
I suspect user studies are being done - and coincidentally confirming whatever it is management wants to do.
Or they focus on new users and not on the amount of things people have already learned.
Or they focus on new users and not on the amount of things people have already learned.
The difference is that Mac OS actually looks somewhat consistent and has kept much of its familiar paradigms (Spotlight, System Preferences, the menubar, context menus...) the same over the past decade. Microsoft seems to have lifted the aesthetics of Mac OS without any of the UX.
And more importantly, when Apple changes some design guidelines, provided you’re using the Cocoa API (which you likely are, if you’re developing for macOS natively), your application will look consistent with the rest of the OS.
Yes, Apple doesn’t care about backwards compatability, so you might have to update your application so that it runs on the latest macOS version, but there’s no way around it.
You either have a gazillion competing frontend APIs to maintain compatability with shit that was written for Windows 3.1, or you don’t care about any of that and end up with almost entirely consistent visual styles across the entire OS.
Yes, Apple doesn’t care about backwards compatability, so you might have to update your application so that it runs on the latest macOS version, but there’s no way around it.
You either have a gazillion competing frontend APIs to maintain compatability with shit that was written for Windows 3.1, or you don’t care about any of that and end up with almost entirely consistent visual styles across the entire OS.
Sadly we've lost that, as more and more apps everywhere are now developed in Electron or other "cross OS" systems. Even Java apps would try a bit harder to match the OS than these "let's create a new UI paradigm for everything" apps that won't even let you open a second window.
OS X has been great for the past decade. I won't say the same for MacBooks, where there have been some pretty horrible decisions (butterfly keyboard, touch bar), but OS X has kept humming along, very usable, very productive. A few issues with Spotlight and some easily removed nags to use crap like iCloud is the worst I can say.
> butterfly keyboard, touch bar
And they admitted their mistake and removed both of these abominations.
They killed the butterfly keyboard in 2019 (almost 4 years after it was introduced), and they killed the touch bar last year.
Yes, it took them some time, but they sorted these things out.
They killed the butterfly keyboard in 2019 (almost 4 years after it was introduced), and they killed the touch bar last year.
Yes, it took them some time, but they sorted these things out.
They also spent years telling people how the butterfly keyboard were amazing, despite the feedback they got. It came off like they ignored their customers and said "we know what's best." You can do that in development, but once your customers actually get their hands on the product, it's time to listen to them.
Except the constant ui changes with no reason other than change, with no option to switch them back.
Or the ever more locked down environment, or the iOS style dumbed down apps they prefer now..
I think it was pretty much downhill after leopard :(
Or the ever more locked down environment, or the iOS style dumbed down apps they prefer now..
I think it was pretty much downhill after leopard :(
Last year I went through every version of macOS from 10.1 to the current release and used each for a couple of weeks. The thing that surprised me the most is just how consistent the user interface has been. Anybody familiar with 10.1 would have no problem using Monterey.
You should write a blog post about this. I'd definitely read it.
> no side taskbar
This is literally the first thing I do on a fresh install. What the hell were they thinking
> start menu further ruined
but whyyyyyyyyyyyy
I honestly never had a problem with Microsoft Windows over its UI decisions until Windows 8.
Windows up to and including Windows 7 were actually ok, because you could put the start menu on the side, switch to classic UI, turn off the graphical embellishments that your shit laptop didn't like, and so on.
Windows 8 became very tabletified, but with options to switch to classic UI, and Windows 10 is the same but arguably a bit more bizarre.
Neither UI was really consistent or knew what it wanted to be, and worst of all, the user can't decide what it should be.
But whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
This is literally the first thing I do on a fresh install. What the hell were they thinking
> start menu further ruined
but whyyyyyyyyyyyy
I honestly never had a problem with Microsoft Windows over its UI decisions until Windows 8.
Windows up to and including Windows 7 were actually ok, because you could put the start menu on the side, switch to classic UI, turn off the graphical embellishments that your shit laptop didn't like, and so on.
Windows 8 became very tabletified, but with options to switch to classic UI, and Windows 10 is the same but arguably a bit more bizarre.
Neither UI was really consistent or knew what it wanted to be, and worst of all, the user can't decide what it should be.
But whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
It seems to frequently be true that Microsoft releases a horrifying nightmare OS, polishes is up and removes hated features, and then releases a new version. It's been a bit of a pattern.
Windows 8 -> Windows 10
Windows Vista -> Windows 7
and even before that:
Windows Me -> Windows 2000 -> Windows XP was a pretty solid chain that shows it over three releases (personally I think XP was buggier, I don't know what the idea was there other than to make some more money?).
Windows 8 -> Windows 10
Windows Vista -> Windows 7
and even before that:
Windows Me -> Windows 2000 -> Windows XP was a pretty solid chain that shows it over three releases (personally I think XP was buggier, I don't know what the idea was there other than to make some more money?).
> Windows Me -> Windows 2000
This isn’t a transition which existed.
Windows ME didn’t get replaced by 2000, they were both released around the same time.
In terms of OS evolution, there were two separate branches, Windows NT and Windows 95.
On the 95 branch: 95 > 98 > ME > Discontinued
On the NT branch: NT 3.5 > NT 4 > 2000 > XP > Vista > 7 > 8 > 10 > 11
Non-business users were originally only ever on the 95 branch, then when it was discontinued they were transitioned to Windows XP, but the neutered home edition, which has been the model since.
This isn’t a transition which existed.
Windows ME didn’t get replaced by 2000, they were both released around the same time.
In terms of OS evolution, there were two separate branches, Windows NT and Windows 95.
On the 95 branch: 95 > 98 > ME > Discontinued
On the NT branch: NT 3.5 > NT 4 > 2000 > XP > Vista > 7 > 8 > 10 > 11
Non-business users were originally only ever on the 95 branch, then when it was discontinued they were transitioned to Windows XP, but the neutered home edition, which has been the model since.
Fair, I switched from 98 to 2000 to XP because Me had such an incredibly bad experience.
From a technology stack side I realize you are right, but I did not experience the UI of Windows ME as a successor to 98 and instead experienced it as a proto-win2k. I'm talking about the UI evolution more than the kernel, which I realize is more subjective.
I do think there is a "paid forced beta -> better after overton window shift" pattern from for instance Vista to 7 and 8 to 10. Those were extremely obviously intended to be the same UI, the first with an extremely questionable UI and the second with a stabilized UI.
From a UI perspective, in the context of a useful work computer, Windows 8 was an absolute failure. Windows 10 I only tolerate because it's gotten most of the bugs worked out and Windows 7 is no longer getting security updates... I fully intend to skip Windows 11 and wait for the next one if I can possibly do so.
It will I'm sure still have a UI mess that makes it even less pleasant than Windows 10, as (in my opinion) Windows 7 was better than Windows 10 and I would have preferred they just keep fine tuning that UI.
I just want my OS to be an OS instead of an experience, and for things to just iterate better rather than see massive overhauls for what they must know is mostly a business OS. It's such a strange approach, I guess they're just worried about going the way of Sun or IBM by not adopting the latest trends. Or maybe they have a business team and a home computer team and the latter is trying to keep up with Apple while the prior is begging them to stop...
From a technology stack side I realize you are right, but I did not experience the UI of Windows ME as a successor to 98 and instead experienced it as a proto-win2k. I'm talking about the UI evolution more than the kernel, which I realize is more subjective.
I do think there is a "paid forced beta -> better after overton window shift" pattern from for instance Vista to 7 and 8 to 10. Those were extremely obviously intended to be the same UI, the first with an extremely questionable UI and the second with a stabilized UI.
From a UI perspective, in the context of a useful work computer, Windows 8 was an absolute failure. Windows 10 I only tolerate because it's gotten most of the bugs worked out and Windows 7 is no longer getting security updates... I fully intend to skip Windows 11 and wait for the next one if I can possibly do so.
It will I'm sure still have a UI mess that makes it even less pleasant than Windows 10, as (in my opinion) Windows 7 was better than Windows 10 and I would have preferred they just keep fine tuning that UI.
I just want my OS to be an OS instead of an experience, and for things to just iterate better rather than see massive overhauls for what they must know is mostly a business OS. It's such a strange approach, I guess they're just worried about going the way of Sun or IBM by not adopting the latest trends. Or maybe they have a business team and a home computer team and the latter is trying to keep up with Apple while the prior is begging them to stop...
Microsoft has a tick tock approach to consumer OS releases, where every other OS is “the good one”.
Windows me - bad
Windows xp - good
Windows vista - bad
Windows 7 - good
Windows 8 - bad
Windows 10 - good
Windows 11 - bad
For a bad release windows 11 is pretty good. This gives me hope that windows 12 will be their best ever.
This is why it would have been smart of them to stick to windows 10 like they planned, but like picking at a scab they just couldn’t let go of the idea of rearranging the deck chairs and rechristening the ship as windows 11.
Windows me - bad
Windows xp - good
Windows vista - bad
Windows 7 - good
Windows 8 - bad
Windows 10 - good
Windows 11 - bad
For a bad release windows 11 is pretty good. This gives me hope that windows 12 will be their best ever.
This is why it would have been smart of them to stick to windows 10 like they planned, but like picking at a scab they just couldn’t let go of the idea of rearranging the deck chairs and rechristening the ship as windows 11.
>Microsoft has a tick tock approach to consumer OS releases
Nice idea but it just doesn't fit.
Windows 95/98/Me were all poor.
XP was widely panned when it came out because existing hardware wasn't quite good enough and it was riddled with security issues. Rememebr SP2?
Where did 8.1 go?
Windows 10 is full of the stuff people are complaining about in this thread.
Nice idea but it just doesn't fit.
Windows 95/98/Me were all poor.
XP was widely panned when it came out because existing hardware wasn't quite good enough and it was riddled with security issues. Rememebr SP2?
Where did 8.1 go?
Windows 10 is full of the stuff people are complaining about in this thread.
I disagree.
95 good. 98 bad.
2000 good, XP bad (for me), Vista bad, 7 good, 8 bad, 8.1 better but not great, 10 OK, 11 bad.
As always: https://www.badscience.net/wp-content/uploads/complicatedcov...
("I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that." -- Ben Goldacre)
95 good. 98 bad.
2000 good, XP bad (for me), Vista bad, 7 good, 8 bad, 8.1 better but not great, 10 OK, 11 bad.
As always: https://www.badscience.net/wp-content/uploads/complicatedcov...
("I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that." -- Ben Goldacre)
> For a bad release windows 11 is pretty good.
...and for a good release Windows 10 is pretty bad.
Despite all the flak it got at the time, Windows 8.1 (plus StartIsBack to hide metro crap) is still the best Windows released in the last decade.
...and for a good release Windows 10 is pretty bad.
Despite all the flak it got at the time, Windows 8.1 (plus StartIsBack to hide metro crap) is still the best Windows released in the last decade.
The "good" releases are good relatively to the crap ones they've succeeded, not on their own. As if they wanted to pay for QA only every other release.
I really need to dig very deep into my memory; wasn't Windows ME kind of dead on arrival? And MS themselves half acknowledged it by releasing XP within a few months.
No, there was a shift.
The Win9x/ME (please read as DOS based) series of OS was intended for home users.
The NT/2K was intended for business users.
Only as an example most games at the time would not have run on NT/2K, and Win9x/Me was essentially single-user only.
For some reasons with XP the good MS guys decided to force down the throat of pro/business users (that were very, very, very happy about Windows 2000) the bells and whistles and graphics they didn't ask for and force down the throat of home users (that were very, very happy about Windows 98, not so much about ME [0]) the complexities of the NT, user access, permissions, NTFS, and other things that at the time made no sense whatever.
Basically they (the MS guys) unified the two branches into one and the result was (of course) a compromise.
[0] I know it is hard to say this, but ME, beside some quirks that there was no time to fix, was not as bad as it has been depicted, as a matter of fact the "best" bastard retro system you can make today is a Windows 98 with selected components of ME integrated/backported or a ME with some features of 98SE brought back, the failure of ME (not entirely unlike the later Vista one) was greatly induced (IMHO) by two factors, underpowered hardware and issues with drivers, both - if you want - essentially the responsibility of OEM's.
The Win9x/ME (please read as DOS based) series of OS was intended for home users.
The NT/2K was intended for business users.
Only as an example most games at the time would not have run on NT/2K, and Win9x/Me was essentially single-user only.
For some reasons with XP the good MS guys decided to force down the throat of pro/business users (that were very, very, very happy about Windows 2000) the bells and whistles and graphics they didn't ask for and force down the throat of home users (that were very, very happy about Windows 98, not so much about ME [0]) the complexities of the NT, user access, permissions, NTFS, and other things that at the time made no sense whatever.
Basically they (the MS guys) unified the two branches into one and the result was (of course) a compromise.
[0] I know it is hard to say this, but ME, beside some quirks that there was no time to fix, was not as bad as it has been depicted, as a matter of fact the "best" bastard retro system you can make today is a Windows 98 with selected components of ME integrated/backported or a ME with some features of 98SE brought back, the failure of ME (not entirely unlike the later Vista one) was greatly induced (IMHO) by two factors, underpowered hardware and issues with drivers, both - if you want - essentially the responsibility of OEM's.
> that were very, very happy about Windows 98, not so much about ME [0]
I disagree somewhat. The 9x family didn't handle multitasking well and had driver issues, frequently leading to lock-ups and BSODs. The architecture didn't handle isolation well, but NT did. Windows NT mostly stayed out of people's way in XP unless they looked for those menus. It was a huge problem for Vista, though.
I disagree somewhat. The 9x family didn't handle multitasking well and had driver issues, frequently leading to lock-ups and BSODs. The architecture didn't handle isolation well, but NT did. Windows NT mostly stayed out of people's way in XP unless they looked for those menus. It was a huge problem for Vista, though.
Well, you have to put it in context, home users at the time could have:
1) free (in the sense of included in the price or their new PC) a somewhat unstable OS with lower requisites (particularly about RAM) where most software somehow ran (including games)
or:
2) a more stable, paid (costing if I recall correctly more than the equivalent of 2-300 US$ of today) OS needing double the RAM (think of 128 vs. 64 MB), definitely slower, where they could not run many games
for some reasons many chose #1, and BSOD's (on the 9x/Me) were so common that it was perceived by many (that had not any occasion to experience the stability of NT and of 2000) as a "normal state of things".
1) free (in the sense of included in the price or their new PC) a somewhat unstable OS with lower requisites (particularly about RAM) where most software somehow ran (including games)
or:
2) a more stable, paid (costing if I recall correctly more than the equivalent of 2-300 US$ of today) OS needing double the RAM (think of 128 vs. 64 MB), definitely slower, where they could not run many games
for some reasons many chose #1, and BSOD's (on the 9x/Me) were so common that it was perceived by many (that had not any occasion to experience the stability of NT and of 2000) as a "normal state of things".
That was a good bit of context, thank you!
I wasn’t aware that XP was meant to be an upgrade for 98/ME (home users) as well as for 2000 (business users). Talk about posing off both set of customers at the same time.
I personally didn’t mind ME and liked XP, but then it was as a student who didn’t do anything serious with computers so it doesn’t count much.
I wasn’t aware that XP was meant to be an upgrade for 98/ME (home users) as well as for 2000 (business users). Talk about posing off both set of customers at the same time.
I personally didn’t mind ME and liked XP, but then it was as a student who didn’t do anything serious with computers so it doesn’t count much.
[deleted]
I hate the Windows 11 taskbar and using ExplorerPatcher to revert to Windows 10 style. Thankfully ExplorerPatcher is yet to let me down. If it does happen I will probably switch to Chrome OS Flex.
This menu is familiar to me because that’s what the Windows API allows you to create (as long as you are not creating it through Windows Forms.) There is no dark theme for this, but at least there are rounded corners.
That is just a huge WTF. Since the very earliest versions of Windows there has always been the option of a dark (or white, or rainbow, or ...) theme, where you could adjust the colours and sizes and fonts, and everything using Win32 would follow it. Here's Win95 example:
https://64.media.tumblr.com/6d3e8c64cd9a38e70d24c0b1b2c73cb5...
Yet if I'm understanding correctly, in Win11 that stopped working completely? It really sounds like the Windows team has no one left who knows what used to be possible but isn't anymore, being replaced with probably younger developers making constant excuses to "modernise" by rewriting and breaking stuff. To use an analogy, they're not just reinventing the wheel but making it square.
That is just a huge WTF. Since the very earliest versions of Windows there has always been the option of a dark (or white, or rainbow, or ...) theme, where you could adjust the colours and sizes and fonts, and everything using Win32 would follow it. Here's Win95 example:
https://64.media.tumblr.com/6d3e8c64cd9a38e70d24c0b1b2c73cb5...
Yet if I'm understanding correctly, in Win11 that stopped working completely? It really sounds like the Windows team has no one left who knows what used to be possible but isn't anymore, being replaced with probably younger developers making constant excuses to "modernise" by rewriting and breaking stuff. To use an analogy, they're not just reinventing the wheel but making it square.
> To use an analogy, they're not just reinventing the wheel but making it square.
And then rounding the corners of the said ”wheel” :)
And then rounding the corners of the said ”wheel” :)
In practice it stopped working well long before windows 11 because so few apps were win32 based and/or because developers would explicitly override the theme. I gave it a go on Windows 7 and even apps like outlook and office wouldn't look right.
Gnome/KDE still offer proper themeing that works with proper native apps but even there you've got web browsers and electron apps that ignore it.
Gnome/KDE still offer proper themeing that works with proper native apps but even there you've got web browsers and electron apps that ignore it.
Ah, but you see - there is a difference in how theming works in Windows 11, in that it's different from the high-contrast mode. So, you can get a control that swaps the theme to high-contrast (you need to use the native Windows API for that), but you can't get one that works with the Windows 11 style of dark theme out-of-the-box without re-writing it from zero.
In other words, they decided to rewrite the theme stuff while neglecting to realise that there's existing code (which they mostly broke around the time of Win8 by removing the Appearance control panel...) that would do what they wanted.
I'm in agreement with the others here that Windows 2000 was probably the peak of consistent UI in Windows. XP didn't really regress but added bitmap-style skinning to the elements, and up until 7 the Windows Classic theme was fully customisable. In Win8 they removed that, and it's been a clear downhill from there.
I'm in agreement with the others here that Windows 2000 was probably the peak of consistent UI in Windows. XP didn't really regress but added bitmap-style skinning to the elements, and up until 7 the Windows Classic theme was fully customisable. In Win8 they removed that, and it's been a clear downhill from there.
> I'm in agreement with the others here that Windows 2000 was probably the peak of consistent UI in Windows. XP didn't really regress but added bitmap-style skinning to the elements, and up until 7 the Windows Classic theme was fully customisable. In Win8 they removed that, and it's been a clear downhill from there.
I agree almost, but not quite 100% with that. My tiny disagreement: The decline set in a bit earlier, not after but some time in the W7 era: Up until some point you could set window border width to 0 in the Appearance control panel applet; after that this input field was apparently made read-only for the user. For a while after that you could "hack" that by editing a Registry value, but AFAICR they disabled that, too. (Or rather, if not exactly disabled Registry editing, made the display driver ignore it.)
I agree almost, but not quite 100% with that. My tiny disagreement: The decline set in a bit earlier, not after but some time in the W7 era: Up until some point you could set window border width to 0 in the Appearance control panel applet; after that this input field was apparently made read-only for the user. For a while after that you could "hack" that by editing a Registry value, but AFAICR they disabled that, too. (Or rather, if not exactly disabled Registry editing, made the display driver ignore it.)
Mind you, at the same time, there's fewer and fewer users for those old features, so why should they be priority vs the people who are just starting to pick up a computer?
The author is pointing out that the context menu style applied through Microsoft's own software GUI framework is inconsistent with the style applied by the rest of the OS. What 'old feature' are you referring to?
It's mind boggling how user-hostile one can make a piece of "premium" software.
You pay 145€ for the Home or 259€ for the Pro Edition and they treat it like it's freeware.
I want my computer to support me in achieving what I want to do, but Windows just keeps grabbing attention with intrusive ads and never-ending notifications.
You pay 145€ for the Home or 259€ for the Pro Edition and they treat it like it's freeware.
I want my computer to support me in achieving what I want to do, but Windows just keeps grabbing attention with intrusive ads and never-ending notifications.
Yeah I think the issue is that for most people it is freeware. Very few consumers are actually paying €145 for Windows. They might have got Windows 7 with their PC (I believe the actual cost is around $10) a literal decade ago and paid nothing since.
I can see why Microsoft are trying to explore other revenue sources. If they give Windows away they make a huge loss but if they charge for upgrades nobody will upgrade and it will become a support nightmare.
I can see why Microsoft are trying to explore other revenue sources. If they give Windows away they make a huge loss but if they charge for upgrades nobody will upgrade and it will become a support nightmare.
We used to call seeing ads in Windows ‘adware’. Now we just call it ‘Windows’.
I’m dead serious - unless you have a specific business reason like most do to use this POS, I can’t imagine anyone actually choosing to use Windows over the alternatives. What a seriously awful piece of software.
I’m dead serious - unless you have a specific business reason like most do to use this POS, I can’t imagine anyone actually choosing to use Windows over the alternatives. What a seriously awful piece of software.
For many, it was a "free upgrade".
I bought 1 pro license for Windows 8. I have used that key ever since. Countless virtual machines and reinstall / hardware upgrade has accepted that key the past 10 years.
I don't see any mention of Cortana or how hard that is to rip out of the OS, but I think it's worth mentioning. The tool called "Everything" by https://www.voidtools.com/ is so insanely better than Cortana and blazingly fast that I'm not sure why they're still trying to push Cortana.
https://www.getblackbird.net/ helps a lot and it's one of the first things I do to Windows installs when I need to use them, but it can break stuff if you're too aggressive with it (e.g. Windows store / Xbox stuff, which for some reason is how to record screenshot videos in Windows... https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/record-a-game-cl... ).
The article also didn't mention the Microsoft Store and how awful everything around that experience is, especially compared to macOS, where the worst part is how signing apps works ( https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Se... vs https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/msix/package/signin... ).
https://www.getblackbird.net/ helps a lot and it's one of the first things I do to Windows installs when I need to use them, but it can break stuff if you're too aggressive with it (e.g. Windows store / Xbox stuff, which for some reason is how to record screenshot videos in Windows... https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/record-a-game-cl... ).
The article also didn't mention the Microsoft Store and how awful everything around that experience is, especially compared to macOS, where the worst part is how signing apps works ( https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Se... vs https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/msix/package/signin... ).
Search being broken for local files is infuriating. I've tried to do registry modifications to fix it and remove Cortana and it STILL won't find a file searched for by name in the root C: directory! But it'll give you random web results!
The point of Cortana was to harvest user search data and push Microsoft services in the search results. Actually finding the user's files was a low priority secondary goal.
Blackbird gets blocked by Defender immediately. Not sure why I'm surprised.
edit: Then again, that tool does seem to make it quite easy to damage your Windows installation.
edit: Then again, that tool does seem to make it quite easy to damage your Windows installation.
I don't trust it because it is a closed source binary and there is a lack of detailed documentation of exactly what settings it changes.
You could run it in a VM and see what changes are made. Given that Jotti by and large says it is benign (very few positive results), it's probably okay. Such trojan flagging as you see here is frequently a result of binary compression or packing.
As an engineer working at Microsoft in Windows, I 100% agree...it's just as frustrating seeing these from inside as well
(edit: from throwaway as a protective measure)
(edit: from throwaway as a protective measure)
just wondering 1 thing.. is there anyone in microsoft that looks at the feedback hub or forum at least? They never seem to listen to ANY feedback..
Microsoft's OS business is a classic "cash cow". It's very big and very profitable, but has limited growth prospects and its revenue is currently growing at only single digit percentage points per year.
Every MBA course teaches that the way to handle a cash cow is to milk as much profits from the users and spend as little money maintaining it as you can get away with. You do this to maximise the amount you have to invest in other, faster growing businesses that will be the future of the company, even if it causes long-term damage to the cash cow.
MS have been milking their OS and Office businesses to fund their cloud and XBox businesses and, so far, it's a textbook example of the strategy succeeding; the cloud already brings in more revenue for MS than Windows and is still growing much faster than it.
The OS features that are getting attention, such as VS Code and WSL are ones that have synergy with the more important businesses and help them sell. Things like fixing the safari park of UI conventions don't have that synergy, so the resources that could improve them go to the other businesses. The ads and forced sign-ins are also part of this; in the long-term, they'll drive some users away from Windows, but right now, they funnel money and users to places that should matter more to the company in the long-term.
MS aren't listening to Windows feedback - and the internal feedback from people working on the product is usually part of it in these situations -, because what's good for Windows isn't what's good for MS.
The OS features that are getting attention, such as VS Code and WSL are ones that have synergy with the more important businesses and help them sell. Things like fixing the safari park of UI conventions don't have that synergy, so the resources that could improve them go to the other businesses. The ads and forced sign-ins are also part of this; in the long-term, they'll drive some users away from Windows, but right now, they funnel money and users to places that should matter more to the company in the long-term.
MS aren't listening to Windows feedback - and the internal feedback from people working on the product is usually part of it in these situations -, because what's good for Windows isn't what's good for MS.
They do look at it. Just not to do what you'd expect with what they see... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29954266
Ha, that's incredible. The MSFT employee (ralvis) cited in the article who complained about the "never combine" change in W11 is someone I know quite well, and he's not a developer. Normal users hate it just as much as us developers/nerds.
I posted an update to that article just the other day - it's a (new?) policy that feedback will be retained for at most 15 months. FBH can be safely disregarded as a waste of time.
(Not a Microsoft employee) Even if you do have the feedback, is it worth fixing issues if your boss doesn't prioritize them, and you won't get promoted for it?
I'm wondering who in the org has a bigger voice and from where he or she gets the political support?
Is it getting raised at meetings?
Not working in MS but I would guess everyone knows about how bad it is. The problem is so colossal (technically and organisationally) thus no one person has the political capital to push for change.
It’s a kind of thing where the usual growth metrics “looks fine”, so it’s hard to justify big initiatives to fix it, yet everyone knows it’s broken. One day, those metrics will start looking bad and then they will try to fix it, but by then it would be too late.
It’s a kind of thing where the usual growth metrics “looks fine”, so it’s hard to justify big initiatives to fix it, yet everyone knows it’s broken. One day, those metrics will start looking bad and then they will try to fix it, but by then it would be too late.
I imagine the bigger problem is that you have to have hard user research to back colossal changes like this one up, especially if the change would do something like invalidate a possibly three-digit large engineering team's years of work. The only thing that saves this is Microsoft's continued commitment to win32 apps, which will probably continue for eternity at least until MS recreates the _entire_ os from the ground up.
Personally, I've advocated for many user-friendly scenarios only to get shutdown by "business decisions" higher up by folks who have been in Windows for 20+ years. The engineering culture inside of Windows, from my experience, is poor and not improving
Is Windows Professional relatively free from these shenanigans?
Or do we need to get Enterprise?
Or do we need to get Enterprise?
As far as I can see everything in the article applies in W11 Professional. It will be interesting, though, to see what happens when more big enterprises start piloting their upgrades to W11. The taskbar changes alone could cause mutinies in thousands of back office departments.
This post resonates with me a lot, as I share many of the same complaints. The UI inconsistencies are one thing (that you would hope get ironed out over time), but the level of ads creeping ever higher is alarming. The “accidental” inclusion of an ad in Windows Explorer this week may have tipped their hand - if that’s the direction they are going, I’m moving off the platform entirely.
> The UI inconsistencies are one thing (that you would hop get ironed out over time)
I wouldn't get my hopes up. Microsoft seems to be introducing new UI frameworks -- each with their own slightly different appearance -- at an ever-increasing rate. If current trends continue, by 2030 there will be more Windows UI frameworks than developers using them. :)
I wouldn't get my hopes up. Microsoft seems to be introducing new UI frameworks -- each with their own slightly different appearance -- at an ever-increasing rate. If current trends continue, by 2030 there will be more Windows UI frameworks than developers using them. :)
>The UI inconsistencies are one thing (that you would hope get ironed out over time)
Windows 8 was released ten years ago. All the old-style control panel dialogs are still with us. Regedit will never get ported to the new UI toolkit.
Windows 8 was released ten years ago. All the old-style control panel dialogs are still with us. Regedit will never get ported to the new UI toolkit.
One hopes it never will, because everything post-Win32 seems to be much worse. UWP (what is used for the new Control Panel/"Settings") is particularly frustrating.
...which is very strange that MS seems to be continuing to rewrite stuff in it, when it's already started saying things like this a few years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19873198
...which is very strange that MS seems to be continuing to rewrite stuff in it, when it's already started saying things like this a few years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19873198
> ...which is very strange that MS seems to be continuing to rewrite stuff in it
From what I understand, the thinking is something like:
- There currently aren't any great alternatives for an attractive, touch-friendly, modern-looking UI framework. UWP applications generally feel pretty good to use despite UWP's problems.
- MS already has to support UWP apps forever (once something ships with Windows it's immortal), so they might as well take advantage of that support guarantee.
The Windows team is currently investing heavily in Chromium/Edge/WebView2, but it's still fairly early days. I'd bet good money that within the next 5 years, web UI in some form will fully replace UWP for new first-party development.
From what I understand, the thinking is something like:
- There currently aren't any great alternatives for an attractive, touch-friendly, modern-looking UI framework. UWP applications generally feel pretty good to use despite UWP's problems.
- MS already has to support UWP apps forever (once something ships with Windows it's immortal), so they might as well take advantage of that support guarantee.
The Windows team is currently investing heavily in Chromium/Edge/WebView2, but it's still fairly early days. I'd bet good money that within the next 5 years, web UI in some form will fully replace UWP for new first-party development.
You're saying that within 5 years the illness will become terminal.
whats so bad about UWP? it's way better than win32 (security, API, Windows integration)
The apps are slow. They are optimized for non-technical people using touch screens (though I haven’t tested that). And the rewrites suck because one needs to learn a new UI, and you would still need to find the old UI for a lot of purposes.
Should it be? I imagine the number of people who use Regedit is less than one per cent, and those people really don’t care what it looks like? (yes, RegEdit is a terrible UX but for me familiarity makes me less likely to make mistakes in a tool you really don’t want to make mistakes in!)
WHY, though? It's genuinely infuriating
It's complicated, but the short answer is that the Windows team messed up and there isn't really a good new native UI framework to migrate Regedit to.
UWP was burdened with sandboxing+packaging requirements that made it very difficult to use, even for first-party software. They eventually figured that out and have made some attempts to lift UI stuff out of UWP (XAML Islands and WinUI 3), but they're both train wrecks (and not staffed with nearly enough people to put up a fight against Chromium).
UWP was burdened with sandboxing+packaging requirements that made it very difficult to use, even for first-party software. They eventually figured that out and have made some attempts to lift UI stuff out of UWP (XAML Islands and WinUI 3), but they're both train wrecks (and not staffed with nearly enough people to put up a fight against Chromium).
I am the most ardent Windows evangelist I know. I have spent so much time learning Windows's APIs and idiosyncrasies because they're just so cool. I love the APIs, I love the system, I love the software and I love the way everything Just Works.
And I'm not installing this shit. It's a skin. It's Windows 10, but retvrned to rounded corners, and with a tenth of the customizability. It's an attempt to put Mac in Windows by people who don't understand either and, if previous HN threads are true, who don't dogfood the result. It has no serious improvements at any level, and every change they have made at first glance is a step backwards. WinUI 3 is already in Win10 and the Android emulator will be ported when it actually comes out. And most damning, I hear report after report after report of backcompat issues with games, which is supposed to be Windows's flagship feature. So what's the point of upgrading? Why would I ever? It's like Windows 8 all over again, but this time they're not even replacing old stuff with new stuff, they're just fucking up the old stuff.
And I'm not installing this shit. It's a skin. It's Windows 10, but retvrned to rounded corners, and with a tenth of the customizability. It's an attempt to put Mac in Windows by people who don't understand either and, if previous HN threads are true, who don't dogfood the result. It has no serious improvements at any level, and every change they have made at first glance is a step backwards. WinUI 3 is already in Win10 and the Android emulator will be ported when it actually comes out. And most damning, I hear report after report after report of backcompat issues with games, which is supposed to be Windows's flagship feature. So what's the point of upgrading? Why would I ever? It's like Windows 8 all over again, but this time they're not even replacing old stuff with new stuff, they're just fucking up the old stuff.
Hi pie_flavor, I am interested in learning more about windows myself, since I am using it on a daily basis. I have found it quite difficult to learn deeper about windows (unlike linux) and look into the "power user" features since I find most of the information/blogs on windows is usually surface level and things being described as a blackbox. Seeing that you quite like the windows API and are familiar with windows quite intimately, would you please be interested in chatting with me for windows resources which I can use to dive deeper into and learn more ?
Would really appreciate if I can get in touch with you on some other chat based social platform. Thank you in advance!
Would really appreciate if I can get in touch with you on some other chat based social platform. Thank you in advance!
“I love [Windows]… I love the way everything Just Works.”
Stopped reading here.
Stopped reading here.
It might be fashionable to say that about Apple products etc., but using a macbook pro for 8 months now (long term user of Windows), I can say, Windows machine DOES actually just work MUCH more than macs. I can't even connect to an external 4K monitor to this stupid silver box without it completely throttling everything meaningful that I can do on it. On top of that there are so many stupid UI/UX decisions that it has taken that make no sense. I would want my company to at least allow people to work on Windows machine too, but they are so much invested in macs that they don't want to.
It IS true, though.
What you’re seeing there in Windows is a two-dimensional, stylized representation of the bloody turf battles between business units within Microsoft. Most recently adtech has entered the battle and seem to be really killing it.
This is the only comment that needs to be on this post. Microsoft has been designing-by-committee Windows much to the chagrin of their users for years. I don't know the last time I was truly excited for a release.
>I don't know the last time I was truly excited for a release.
Honestly, and I know it's a joke because of the very nerd-tastic dancing, but it was for this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAkuJXGldrM
Honestly, and I know it's a joke because of the very nerd-tastic dancing, but it was for this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAkuJXGldrM
If they shipped a version of Windows sporting the Windows-11 kernel, so running all the recent software, but with Windows 2000 UI for a thousand dollars I would buy it immediately.
It’s not quite Windows 2000, but the LTSC edition has much of the bullshit stripped out. It does not support the store therefore Candy Crush is not installed by default. And I don’t think it’s quite $1000, if you can figure out how to buy it.
Been running Windows Server as my desktop dev environment since NT4. Back then it was so the dev environment was the same as the server environment, that’s pretty much fixed now so it’s just to avoid all this horrible store nonsense. Can’t upgrade from 2019 as I don’t have a TPM so no WSL2 or new terminal but happy to accept that trade off. And shout out to win2k server which was awesome!
It's available in volume licensing, with a 5 license as minimal order.
Apparently you can pad the 5 license minimum with cheap licenses, so it's not like you need to fork over $1000+ to get started.
https://community.spiceworks.com/topic/2167558-explicit-inst...
https://community.spiceworks.com/topic/2167558-explicit-inst...
Can also get it free with a Visual Studio subscription, that's where I got mine.
Just checked VS subscription page and didn't find it, maybe it's kinda hidden? I'm chatting with a sales representative regarding this.
The Visual Studio web site is impossible to decode. I think this is the page:
https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/subscriptions/#software-a...
Basically they give you every version of Windows so you can test your code. So 10 LTSC is in there. I run it in my VMs because it uses so little memory and CPU compared to the regular one.
I don't know which flavor of subscription you need to get it. I got my sub free as an MVP.
https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/subscriptions/#software-a...
Basically they give you every version of Windows so you can test your code. So 10 LTSC is in there. I run it in my VMs because it uses so little memory and CPU compared to the regular one.
I don't know which flavor of subscription you need to get it. I got my sub free as an MVP.
Snooped around and looks like the only option is to purchase VS Enterprise + Github Enterprise (professional versions don't work). This is definitely going to be pricy. I guess if my company has enterprise license I might be able to take advantage of that...
I just logged in to check mine sub and it does say Visual Studio Enterprise :(
Thanks!
It's also available on certain sites.
Although I haven't figured out how to ...install the latest version, it seems more complex than the one before.
Although I haven't figured out how to ...install the latest version, it seems more complex than the one before.
The latest LTSC actually doesn't have as much stripped out anymore. Telemetry choices are the same now and also MS accounts are there. I was really disappointed when I tried it.
Hold up. Windows 11 LTSC forces you to use Microsoft accounts, you can't go local at all? Not doubting, just need clarification.
No it doesn't force you, just like regular Win 10 Pro. But it does have the option and also the telemetry choice is now 'basic' or 'everything'.
LTSC is often hailed as the solution for privacy but when I last tried it it was just regular Win10 with a bit less bloatware (and the long term support of course). Didn't seem very different from Win10 on the privacy side at all.
One thing I forgot to check is if you can choose to delay updates to whenever you want. Obviously this is a big miss in Win10 and as LTSC is meant for mission critical systems I assume this is possible.
I don't recall which version it was exactly, but it was the latest I could get about a year ago when I tried. One of our colleagues in industrial automation got me a VM in their lab to try it out.
LTSC is often hailed as the solution for privacy but when I last tried it it was just regular Win10 with a bit less bloatware (and the long term support of course). Didn't seem very different from Win10 on the privacy side at all.
One thing I forgot to check is if you can choose to delay updates to whenever you want. Obviously this is a big miss in Win10 and as LTSC is meant for mission critical systems I assume this is possible.
I don't recall which version it was exactly, but it was the latest I could get about a year ago when I tried. One of our colleagues in industrial automation got me a VM in their lab to try it out.
I think it allows you to disable a lot of crap in gpedit.
Windows 10 LTSE was under $20 on ebay, unsure of the legality of this.
> unsure of the legality of this.
I always have a laugh when I see this logic.
A product costing more than $200 and not available in the consumer market without some hoops to jump? Of course someone would resell it for $20 (including their profit) totally legally.
I always have a laugh when I see this logic.
A product costing more than $200 and not available in the consumer market without some hoops to jump? Of course someone would resell it for $20 (including their profit) totally legally.
Not Windows, but you might get a kick out of the Serenity OS project: http://serenityos.org/
I haven't looked at the scene recently but in the past I've seen various projects on somewhat-underground (and often non-English) forums where they try to do similar things, mixing different versions of kernel and userland.
There is this more recent attempt, Win10 explorer.exe with Win11 kernel: https://www.reddit.com/r/windows/comments/o6ytuw/so_i_replac...
There is this more recent attempt, Win10 explorer.exe with Win11 kernel: https://www.reddit.com/r/windows/comments/o6ytuw/so_i_replac...
The operating system would look consistent, but we would still have to deal with all the applications that decided they need to draw their own UI, including everything from Microsoft Office to all the web browsers to all the electrons apps.
It's too late for the Windows ecosystem.
It's too late for the Windows ecosystem.
Server isn't too far off...
That's true, but then you start running into weird compatibility issues, where a specific game won't work because an Xbox Live component is not installed or DirectX SDK is not at the right version (and you can't install the right version because it only works on the consumer OS).
Server 2012 (or was it 2008?) was absolutely terrible in that was absolutely Windows 8-ified with a forced full-screen metro start menu "experience," but that was fortunately rectified in the next release (Server 2016, I'm pretty sure).
It would take probably another $100M in engineering pay to do this, so unless there are 100k other people willing to pay $1,000 for this, you're short on how much you need to pay to actually get this done.
Windows 7 for me but yes, similar sentiment.
That's the dream.
I stopped playing Minecraft recently again. I first quit a few years ago, but wanted to show it to my young son. Trying to go back and EVEN JUST INSTALL it now is filled with Microsoft-ian circles of login catastrophe and "upgrade your account" nightmares.
The installation process was so difficult, I will never play again.
The installation process was so difficult, I will never play again.
As somebody who started playing back in alpha, it's amazing how many user-hostile changes have been made. Needing to transfer accounts multiple times, finding the cross-platform Java version among all the various Windows-only or mobile only versions, finding out that the account had been archived years ago.
And that's not even getting into the mess that is the licensing that was Minecraft Alpha. That was changed even before Microsoft took over, when lawyers took one look at the license and realized that players getting "all future versions" [0] would include any sequels, spin-offs, platform ports, etc.
[0] https://web.archive.org/web/20101214061702/http://notch.tumb...
And that's not even getting into the mess that is the licensing that was Minecraft Alpha. That was changed even before Microsoft took over, when lawyers took one look at the license and realized that players getting "all future versions" [0] would include any sequels, spin-offs, platform ports, etc.
[0] https://web.archive.org/web/20101214061702/http://notch.tumb...
I lost my Minecraft alpha account apparently because I was allowed to “activate” Minecraft VR in the oculus store rather than the Microsoft Store. I sold my oculus and it’s impossible to launch Minecraft in the Oculus store without a VR headset, despite it being the full game!
Remember the Minecraft Alpha promise? It went something like "if you buy this game in Alpha you get all future minecraft softwares/ports/etc for free".
Wonder where that went hmmmm
Wonder where that went hmmmm
Use multimc.org. When the launcher changed to a microsoft app we moved to using the multimc launcher. It has far more predicatable and reliable behaviour than what microsoft is offering
I tried to play Minecraft with my kids yesterday. It forced us to migrate accounts, but after clicking lots of buttons, the presumably final Microsoft account creation part just hung and wouldn't finish. My kids were like "By why can't we just play? We paid for it!". They couldn't understand why "Microsoft accounts" were even needed for local network play. Neither can I.
I still don't understand what a "Microsoft Account" IS.
Is it Hotmail?
I know what an Apple Id is! And it just works!
It depends. Are you at work/university? Then that is a different Microsoft account than a personal Microsoft account. I think. Some Microsoft login screens won't let me log in with my work account even though they look the exact same as other Microsoft login screens.
The mind boggles.
The mind boggles.
Same experience with my youngest sister.
I bought her a Minecraft account via my Microsoft one, getting her the necessary permission for multiplayer took an hour to do so, parsing through cryptic microsoft documentation which essentially consists of a maze of links that loop back to pages you already visited.
The funny thing is that one of my brother told me before I started that I could just download the pirated client, that way I wouldn't have to pay for Minecraft for the 938th time and the pirated client just works out of the box contrary to the official version.
It'd been years since I had to interact with anything Microsoft, I thought he was exagerating. What a shock when I realized pirates actually do a better job than MS at making their own products accessible.
I bought her a Minecraft account via my Microsoft one, getting her the necessary permission for multiplayer took an hour to do so, parsing through cryptic microsoft documentation which essentially consists of a maze of links that loop back to pages you already visited.
The funny thing is that one of my brother told me before I started that I could just download the pirated client, that way I wouldn't have to pay for Minecraft for the 938th time and the pirated client just works out of the box contrary to the official version.
It'd been years since I had to interact with anything Microsoft, I thought he was exagerating. What a shock when I realized pirates actually do a better job than MS at making their own products accessible.
Minetest scratches that itch pretty well, open source and no MS nonsense.
I've been playing the same Minetest SMP server for 5+ years now. Minetest is pretty good, the engine is C++ but the game world is defined via lua.
There are some quirks that will drive hard-code Minecraft players nuts, but it's not that bad overall, especially if you like the building aspect of MC.
There are some quirks that will drive hard-code Minecraft players nuts, but it's not that bad overall, especially if you like the building aspect of MC.
Was going to mention Minetest, we’ve been running a family mineclone2 server for a couple of months now and it’s been great.
I've really been dreading the Microsoft account switch for Minecraft, which I run only on linux. Is it going to demand my phone number? A credit card (even though I already own the game)? I have no idea and I don't want to give them any of those things.
A year or so ago my son tried to activate his Minecraft account. He gave up. Said it was days and days of hell and he was really upset.
EDIT:
Reminds me of what happened years earlier when we turned on our XBOX and had to update. Basically, it took an entire day of logic loops in the login/verification system, which required several hours of being on the phone with MS.
It was a forced upgrade, so otherwise we would have ignored it.
So, this Minecraft stuff is nothing new for MS.
EDIT:
Reminds me of what happened years earlier when we turned on our XBOX and had to update. Basically, it took an entire day of logic loops in the login/verification system, which required several hours of being on the phone with MS.
It was a forced upgrade, so otherwise we would have ignored it.
So, this Minecraft stuff is nothing new for MS.
I tried to use a different email address to sign in to Windows from the one associated with my Minecraft purchase, and what a nightmare that was.
Spent hours flailing with the Xbox store, Microsoft store, Mojang and Minecraft accounts, resetting passwords, etc. Eventually got it to work but I have no idea what fixed it.
Spent hours flailing with the Xbox store, Microsoft store, Mojang and Minecraft accounts, resetting passwords, etc. Eventually got it to work but I have no idea what fixed it.
The problem I have with windows is two-fold. Firstly, I came to windows before Vista. So I know how powerful the old windows settings/features were. I knew exactly where to access everything I wanted. I have a feeling this is probably the same for many people from all sorts of backgrounds (Personally, I experimented with Apple - Hello touchbar!). But the second issue is the new damn UIs aren't exhasutive! THey're a thin layer on top of the acutal data, which don't tell you what you actually need, and often revert you back to the old UI. If you're going to ship a product that refers me back to the old UI for half the stuff I'm interested in... just don't ship the new UI. It's not worth the time.
It's been 15 years since Vista and this hasn't been fixed. It's difficult to find people to actually just deliver on basic stuff apparently. This is why the commandline works. Becuase if all else fails there is 1 interface. I don't think this is unfixable but it requires a lot of gruntwork.
It's been 15 years since Vista and this hasn't been fixed. It's difficult to find people to actually just deliver on basic stuff apparently. This is why the commandline works. Becuase if all else fails there is 1 interface. I don't think this is unfixable but it requires a lot of gruntwork.
> If you're going to ship a product that refers me back to the old UI for half the stuff I'm interested in... just don't ship the new UI.
That's exactly the problem of each iteration on Windows. New overlay on top of the old one that always misses the one thing you need, and you either get lucky and find the right menu right away to get to the old screen that gives you what you want, or you get into hell.
The new network screens are notoriously bad, and it always takes me 5 minutes to find how the hell to get to the adapters screen again.
That's exactly the problem of each iteration on Windows. New overlay on top of the old one that always misses the one thing you need, and you either get lucky and find the right menu right away to get to the old screen that gives you what you want, or you get into hell.
The new network screens are notoriously bad, and it always takes me 5 minutes to find how the hell to get to the adapters screen again.
I put a shortcut for specifically that screen on my desktop ... and ClassicShell makes it easy to open the original control panel.
There's been a big shift in the whole software industry from "enable what the user wants to do" over to "we want the user to do this". Back in the '90s, we would go out, talk to customers, find out their needs, gather requirements, and write software that enables them to do what they want to do. Now, in a lot of software companies, it's the opposite. Product leadership starts with "What do we want users to do?" and then every software decision is in service of encouraging / forcing / channeling users' behavior into these paths. I've sat in product meetings where people would just say "No, the user should not be allowed to do ABC, we (Company) need them to do XYZ!" It's arrogance, it's hubris and it's everywhere.
The slogan "Where do you want to go today?" is dead. It's now all "This is where we will let you go today!"
The slogan "Where do you want to go today?" is dead. It's now all "This is where we will let you go today!"
The skype thing kinda makes sense. People want software which just works without configuration. When you sign in to an iphone or macbook, it immediately sets up facetime which is always active waiting for a call in the background. No one complains because this is expected and it has always happened.
But then Microsoft wants to give their users the same conveniance as Apple users get with their "just works" setup and people call it user hostile and malware. It makes perfect sense that users would like a way to call other windows users in a way that doesn't involve installing things and fiddling around with more accounts/configuration.
But then Microsoft wants to give their users the same conveniance as Apple users get with their "just works" setup and people call it user hostile and malware. It makes perfect sense that users would like a way to call other windows users in a way that doesn't involve installing things and fiddling around with more accounts/configuration.
I see your point but maybe the reactions are because most of these efforts feel half baked? For example they are forcing teams on users, which I use as a daily driver at my work and I feel that it's the worst piece of software I have to use.
On top of that the way things are integrated always looks and feels forced. Like going into lengths to hide control panel in windows 10 even if it's still there and while the settings app which replaces it only has a fraction of the functionality.
On top of that the way things are integrated always looks and feels forced. Like going into lengths to hide control panel in windows 10 even if it's still there and while the settings app which replaces it only has a fraction of the functionality.
Absolutely. And everything is extremely confusing, even for "tech workers", which I am.
The other day, I installed Win 11 on a work computer to give it a try. I figured since it's gonna be domain joined and whatnot anyway, might as well go all in. So when it asked for an account, I plug in my Office 365 account, and got all kinds of weird errors, such as wrong password, etc. In the end I gave up and created a regular account. Now it asks whether I'm sure I don't want an MS account, 'cause it's so much greater. Right. Except it doesn't work... Then I try adding the account manually in "accounts". Same issue...
In the end, I managed to add the account via OneDrive, which installed a separate OneDrive. But at least it did it on its own, no intervention needed. But I do have two "one drive" folders in the explorer for some reason, and I can't remove any of them [0]. I don't remember iCloud showing up multiple times in Finder.
Later, I find there's Teams preload. Good, let me just log in. Strange, I added the account, said it was OK for other apps to use, but it still wants me log in. I type in my credentials, and the odd account errors are back. Turns out, that's the wrong Teams! It's teams for the plebs, apparently I needed Teams "pro" or something. At least, Skype had a somewhat different name, as in "Skype for business" vs "just skype".
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[0] Yes, I know it's possible to change the "shortcuts" or whatever they're called from the registry, but the point is that it's half-baked, it tries to be "helpful" but it's actually a hassle. If I don't want iCloud in the Finder, I can just pull it out of the sidebar. And it stays that way, as opposed to the Explorer shortcuts which have a tendency to come back after updates.
The other day, I installed Win 11 on a work computer to give it a try. I figured since it's gonna be domain joined and whatnot anyway, might as well go all in. So when it asked for an account, I plug in my Office 365 account, and got all kinds of weird errors, such as wrong password, etc. In the end I gave up and created a regular account. Now it asks whether I'm sure I don't want an MS account, 'cause it's so much greater. Right. Except it doesn't work... Then I try adding the account manually in "accounts". Same issue...
In the end, I managed to add the account via OneDrive, which installed a separate OneDrive. But at least it did it on its own, no intervention needed. But I do have two "one drive" folders in the explorer for some reason, and I can't remove any of them [0]. I don't remember iCloud showing up multiple times in Finder.
Later, I find there's Teams preload. Good, let me just log in. Strange, I added the account, said it was OK for other apps to use, but it still wants me log in. I type in my credentials, and the odd account errors are back. Turns out, that's the wrong Teams! It's teams for the plebs, apparently I needed Teams "pro" or something. At least, Skype had a somewhat different name, as in "Skype for business" vs "just skype".
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[0] Yes, I know it's possible to change the "shortcuts" or whatever they're called from the registry, but the point is that it's half-baked, it tries to be "helpful" but it's actually a hassle. If I don't want iCloud in the Finder, I can just pull it out of the sidebar. And it stays that way, as opposed to the Explorer shortcuts which have a tendency to come back after updates.
The separation of Onedrive and Teams into plebs and business versions is asinine. Why cant both types of accounts use the same application?
I agree it’s an implementation issue. Windows always feels like annoying nagware while macOS and iOS largely get out of your way. Teams would pop up with a window on every boot to annoy you while FaceTime just sits in the background.
But the power users on this site would rather we have some kind of advanced configuration page where every single feature of windows should be opt in. While simultaneously praising the Apple “just works” system.
But the power users on this site would rather we have some kind of advanced configuration page where every single feature of windows should be opt in. While simultaneously praising the Apple “just works” system.
> While simultaneously praising the Apple “just works” system.
Because included into that "just works" system is just leaves you alone.
Maybe if the "helpful" Windows feature wouldn't nag all the time, as you put it, the power users wouldn't complain about it and look for ways to turn it off.
I've been using a Mac for more than 10 years now without an iCloud account. It asked me once whether I wanted one, when I bought the computer new, I said no, and it's left me alone ever since. And I went through I don't know how many "major" upgrades. Windows bugs me all the time.
So there's really no reason for me to complain about FaceTime, or whatever. I don't even know it's there if I don't go looking for it specifically. Whereas Windows, it's in my face, all the time. So there's a direct benefit for me to look for ways to shut that crap down. Maybe, just maybe, if Teams isn't installed it will shut up and leave me be. At least until the next update brings it back...
Because included into that "just works" system is just leaves you alone.
Maybe if the "helpful" Windows feature wouldn't nag all the time, as you put it, the power users wouldn't complain about it and look for ways to turn it off.
I've been using a Mac for more than 10 years now without an iCloud account. It asked me once whether I wanted one, when I bought the computer new, I said no, and it's left me alone ever since. And I went through I don't know how many "major" upgrades. Windows bugs me all the time.
So there's really no reason for me to complain about FaceTime, or whatever. I don't even know it's there if I don't go looking for it specifically. Whereas Windows, it's in my face, all the time. So there's a direct benefit for me to look for ways to shut that crap down. Maybe, just maybe, if Teams isn't installed it will shut up and leave me be. At least until the next update brings it back...
Edge is arguably the worst one here. Change your default from Safari on MacOS and it'll never bother you again, and anything that would have previously opened in Safari will open in the new browser.
There's practically no easy way to get rid of Edge or silence it; not only is it forced down your throat, there's active investment in trying to prevent you from switching to something else.
It doesn't excuse the constant nagging from OneDrive and Teams but, at least for now, they're not detecting that you're on Slack/Discord/Dropbox and trying to force you to switch.
There's practically no easy way to get rid of Edge or silence it; not only is it forced down your throat, there's active investment in trying to prevent you from switching to something else.
It doesn't excuse the constant nagging from OneDrive and Teams but, at least for now, they're not detecting that you're on Slack/Discord/Dropbox and trying to force you to switch.
> When you sign in to an iphone or macbook, it immediately sets up facetime which is always active waiting for a call in the background. No one complains because this is expected and it has always happened.
People actually complain. We’re past the point where everyone only has one set of devices, a single apple ID, and everything is simple.
You might not want your iPad to receive the “family” account Facetime. You might not want your second phone to register for iMessage. You might want these services from an ID different from the device’s main account.
There’s optout ways out for all these services, but following the 80/20 rule, I think there is a “20” part with circumstances that make the blanket “turn it all on” grating and tedious to get rid of.
People actually complain. We’re past the point where everyone only has one set of devices, a single apple ID, and everything is simple.
You might not want your iPad to receive the “family” account Facetime. You might not want your second phone to register for iMessage. You might want these services from an ID different from the device’s main account.
There’s optout ways out for all these services, but following the 80/20 rule, I think there is a “20” part with circumstances that make the blanket “turn it all on” grating and tedious to get rid of.
It's not the same though.
If I buy an iPhone then it is so that people can call me on it. The Mac makes it easy that I can also receive a call on my Mac if I am working on it. It's an additional convenience feature. It's not like the Mac is forcing me to do this. The call would still happen on my phone, I'd just have a much harder time to respond to it if I didn't get the smooth integration on my Mac whilst working on it. If I didn't have an iPhone then I also wouldn't get random calls on my Mac. Besides, if I don't want this feature to work then it is very easy to disable it form a very self explaining settings app and that setting will persist during updates.
It literally couldn't be more different to how Windows operates.
Also, perhaps Apple makes things enjoyable in how they work, which is maybe why less users have a desire to disable these handy features. It certainly feels more straight forward, down to the point, no dark patterns and very obvious as a macOS user. I can't say the same about Windows.
If I buy an iPhone then it is so that people can call me on it. The Mac makes it easy that I can also receive a call on my Mac if I am working on it. It's an additional convenience feature. It's not like the Mac is forcing me to do this. The call would still happen on my phone, I'd just have a much harder time to respond to it if I didn't get the smooth integration on my Mac whilst working on it. If I didn't have an iPhone then I also wouldn't get random calls on my Mac. Besides, if I don't want this feature to work then it is very easy to disable it form a very self explaining settings app and that setting will persist during updates.
It literally couldn't be more different to how Windows operates.
Also, perhaps Apple makes things enjoyable in how they work, which is maybe why less users have a desire to disable these handy features. It certainly feels more straight forward, down to the point, no dark patterns and very obvious as a macOS user. I can't say the same about Windows.
That misguided notion of product features and integration, where the user has minimum role, started out at Apple. The standard pattern used to be talking to OEMs and discussing what users wanted from them. That review phase generated update ideas for next release and so on. Apple turned that question on its head and made it "the one last thing" show business.
We have employed a generation of PMs now who idolize Steve Jobs' mantra: "Users dont know what they want until you show it to them".
EDIT: We does not mean I am employed by Apple. It signifies the general trend for companies to enable product development by PMs
We have employed a generation of PMs now who idolize Steve Jobs' mantra: "Users dont know what they want until you show it to them".
EDIT: We does not mean I am employed by Apple. It signifies the general trend for companies to enable product development by PMs
> We have employed a generation of PMs now who idolize Steve Jobs' mantra: "Users dont know what they want until you show it to them".
just because a bunch of dumb PMs are pushing hot garbage to the user doesn't mean that statement is false. There almost always IS a way to improve and innovate a user experience—a new experience that the user hasn't thought of before. Its just that the PM incentives aren't aligned with the users these days.
just because a bunch of dumb PMs are pushing hot garbage to the user doesn't mean that statement is false. There almost always IS a way to improve and innovate a user experience—a new experience that the user hasn't thought of before. Its just that the PM incentives aren't aligned with the users these days.
Agreed. I think it was Henry Ford who said that if he had asked customers what they wanted, they would have told him a better horse.
Innovation is the act of giving the users something they didn't know what they want.
But that's not what these anti-user dark patterns are. They are the end result PMs trying to hit their KPIs by any means necessary. And those happen to not track things like users satisfaction and trust.
Innovation is the act of giving the users something they didn't know what they want.
But that's not what these anti-user dark patterns are. They are the end result PMs trying to hit their KPIs by any means necessary. And those happen to not track things like users satisfaction and trust.
That is a good observation. The whole GTalk-Hangout-Chat saga at Google is testament to that misguided ideology.
Note that Apple doesn’t have PMs.
Absolutely, although something that really grinds my gears is that there's sometimes this weird Orwellian lie that they really start to believe, that they actually are doing it "for the user." There's something deeply disturbing about mass group delusion.
Indeed. One need only look at something as simple as UI styling to see the drastic difference. It used to be that the user could set every aspect of the UI widgets to pretty much whatever they wanted in terms of color, don't, and size. It wasn't even really noteworthy to come across someone who used italic comic sans in their title bars on a purple and green widget scheme.
Nowadays getting a bespoke dark mode for applications is an advertisement worthy feature.
Nowadays getting a bespoke dark mode for applications is an advertisement worthy feature.
It’s probably driven by all the unicorns and massive tech companies that got where they are by building what they think the customers will want.
Not defending, but I do recall the ford quote of “If I’d asked customers what they wanted, they would have said ‘a faster horse’”
Not defending, but I do recall the ford quote of “If I’d asked customers what they wanted, they would have said ‘a faster horse’”
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I guess the ultimate goal is profit, and strategy was implementing what users wanted. “Strategy is how not what” etc etc.
The goal is now growth, not even profit, and control over users is strat.
What comes next? Jerk(2nd derivative of speed, rate of acceleration changes)? — the speed at which users conform a platform?
Capitalism is so ripe for disruption, or innovation, it seems!
The goal is now growth, not even profit, and control over users is strat.
What comes next? Jerk(2nd derivative of speed, rate of acceleration changes)? — the speed at which users conform a platform?
Capitalism is so ripe for disruption, or innovation, it seems!
I feel like the industry is really struggling with shipping “boring utilitarian things”. Rather than let software remain boring and just-plain-useful, it is forced to slowly transform into a nightmare of ads, pop-ups and other crap that is clearly NOT required for core functionality and ultimately the whole thing becomes awful to use.
Even when the intrusion is small, it is ridiculous because it is not required for the software to work (e.g. in the iPhone SETTINGS app, nothing about tweaking settings ever requires the user to view a stupid ad, and yet there they are, crappifying the UI).
And as I get older I am telling myself “this isn’t what I signed up for”: I want useful software that is free of garbage, especially when money is exchanged, and most certainly when a LOT of money is exchanged.
So tell these bean-counters to get the hell out, and let us make computers “only” useful instead of ad-spewing machines.
Even when the intrusion is small, it is ridiculous because it is not required for the software to work (e.g. in the iPhone SETTINGS app, nothing about tweaking settings ever requires the user to view a stupid ad, and yet there they are, crappifying the UI).
And as I get older I am telling myself “this isn’t what I signed up for”: I want useful software that is free of garbage, especially when money is exchanged, and most certainly when a LOT of money is exchanged.
So tell these bean-counters to get the hell out, and let us make computers “only” useful instead of ad-spewing machines.
I blame "Product Managers" or "Product Owners". In my 20 years of being at different technology companies, I´ve realized that people in this position must come up with new "features", bells and whistles to keep justifying their job.
Think about say, Microsoft Word (only word, not office). Word has been feature complete since maybe the 2000 version. But, where would all the "product development" arm of the Word application go if they declared it as such? The only required people would be "project managers" to manage bug fixes projects, and the development chain (programmers, QAs, etc)...
But these people have to eat, so they keep adding crap to an otherwise good product, they keep shuffling things around and "experimenting" to maintain their job.
Think about say, Microsoft Word (only word, not office). Word has been feature complete since maybe the 2000 version. But, where would all the "product development" arm of the Word application go if they declared it as such? The only required people would be "project managers" to manage bug fixes projects, and the development chain (programmers, QAs, etc)...
But these people have to eat, so they keep adding crap to an otherwise good product, they keep shuffling things around and "experimenting" to maintain their job.
> _Word has been feature complete since maybe the 2000 version_
I am not sure, say for example the browser / Office 365 release version of Microsoft Word was very useful, and I'm sure they had to make _many_ changes in the desktop Word too in order to sync everything with the online word. That's pretty important I would say and it works great. The requirement of 'Feature completeness' keeps changing with times.
Kinda at a loss for OS/DE at the moment.
Lived on Windows for over 2 decades (completed work via a Linux VM). Windows 8 was horrid and Windows 10/11 is hostile towards user experience (etc, etc privacy, but mostly user experience).
Used MacOS for half a decade after that and loved the Unix terminal and tight desktop experience but underpowered and overpriced hardware had me running a hackintosh for over half of that time. The move to M1 (and general difficulty maintaining a Hackintosh) means that MacOS is off the table for me.
I am currently daily driving Gnome 4 on Fedora and loving it. It has some user application UX issues (like Google Chrome mouse scrolls slowly) and some questionable desktop environment design decisions - but overall a nice place to land.
Not quite as nice as MacOS but it gets the job done.
It's sad that after 30 years on computers, my user experience has gotten worse - Gnome 4 came along at the perfect time to catch a bunch of MacOS and Windows refugees and I pray the developers push it in a direction where it becomes the most ergonomic desktop environment available on the Desktop - at least for engineers.
Lived on Windows for over 2 decades (completed work via a Linux VM). Windows 8 was horrid and Windows 10/11 is hostile towards user experience (etc, etc privacy, but mostly user experience).
Used MacOS for half a decade after that and loved the Unix terminal and tight desktop experience but underpowered and overpriced hardware had me running a hackintosh for over half of that time. The move to M1 (and general difficulty maintaining a Hackintosh) means that MacOS is off the table for me.
I am currently daily driving Gnome 4 on Fedora and loving it. It has some user application UX issues (like Google Chrome mouse scrolls slowly) and some questionable desktop environment design decisions - but overall a nice place to land.
Not quite as nice as MacOS but it gets the job done.
It's sad that after 30 years on computers, my user experience has gotten worse - Gnome 4 came along at the perfect time to catch a bunch of MacOS and Windows refugees and I pray the developers push it in a direction where it becomes the most ergonomic desktop environment available on the Desktop - at least for engineers.
Same story for me. Landed on Gnome 4x series Fedora after ditching macOS for engineering after a decade. iCloud, iMessage, appleTV etc etc hooks just got too intrusive and made things too unresponsive in my case.
Messages is basically unusable after Big Sur. The new windows are a huge step backwards. Notifications are mind bogglingly broken. Reminder sync with iCloud… doesn’t. Spotlight indexes Time Machine directories, which create more deltas for Time Machine to index, sending the Spotlight service into a feedback loop. Etc, etc, etc.
I’m hopeful the next MacOS shakeup is similar to the recent return to sanity in hardware.
Apple hardware is finally recovering from Ives’ fever dream. The OS needs saving next.
I’m hopeful the next MacOS shakeup is similar to the recent return to sanity in hardware.
Apple hardware is finally recovering from Ives’ fever dream. The OS needs saving next.
The current MacOS desktop environment is, generously, a dumpster fire. But it’s also miles ahead of anything else on the market.
The last decade of desktop environments feels like a march backwards, or perhaps even vertical, into some kind of alternate reality where the UI is designed to get in the way instead of enable.
Modern desktop environments are a painful death by a thousand cuts.
This is a rant but a desktop environment is my hammer. It is the tool I use more than anything else. The experience is sacred. And yet it is defiled annually.
I never feel more helpless than the first moments after a MacOS upgrade. Like all my power has been stripped. It hurts.
The last decade of desktop environments feels like a march backwards, or perhaps even vertical, into some kind of alternate reality where the UI is designed to get in the way instead of enable.
Modern desktop environments are a painful death by a thousand cuts.
This is a rant but a desktop environment is my hammer. It is the tool I use more than anything else. The experience is sacred. And yet it is defiled annually.
I never feel more helpless than the first moments after a MacOS upgrade. Like all my power has been stripped. It hurts.
All I want is macOS with window snapping and a maximise button. Their absence makes shifting from Windows very difficult. I can't understand why these basic features have not been added, yet the OS receives changes that, as you rightly point out, tend to defile the user experience.
I can't understand why people would want to make windows full screen in ordinary situations. It seems to be something I would only want to do on rare occasions, given that you lose quick access to the menu bar.
Magnet/Rectangle are third-party fixes for the former. But it's a basic function that should be built into the OS.
I can't understand why people would want to make windows full screen in ordinary situations. It seems to be something I would only want to do on rare occasions, given that you lose quick access to the menu bar.
Magnet/Rectangle are third-party fixes for the former. But it's a basic function that should be built into the OS.
To be clear, I think the power in a windowing desktop environment is not having to maximize windows. That’s a compromise for small screens. When I upgraded my 2014 RMBP to Big Sur I lost the ability to compose multiple windows because of the grotesque enlargement of the window header.
The ability to snap to fill the screen may be useful on tiny screens but with Mac hardware shouldn’t be as important because the real estate (pixels!) should be there to use and arrange individual windows. Even multiple windows per app.
Modern MacOS (post OSX) got away from the classic MacOS (<=9) workflow and now occupies an awkward position of having the worst characteristics of Windows, Gnome, and OSX.
The ability to snap to fill the screen may be useful on tiny screens but with Mac hardware shouldn’t be as important because the real estate (pixels!) should be there to use and arrange individual windows. Even multiple windows per app.
Modern MacOS (post OSX) got away from the classic MacOS (<=9) workflow and now occupies an awkward position of having the worst characteristics of Windows, Gnome, and OSX.
Sure, but if I want to use one app on my screen and still have access to the menu bar, it means awkwardly dragging the window around to fill gaps. In Windows, it's one click.
Similarly, if I want two apps side by side, it's even more awkward. Ideally I would want to avoid wasting pixels by having unfilled areas, so it's a lot of finnicky dragging to make sure they align up. In Windows, it requires two clicks.
Similarly, if I want two apps side by side, it's even more awkward. Ideally I would want to avoid wasting pixels by having unfilled areas, so it's a lot of finnicky dragging to make sure they align up. In Windows, it requires two clicks.
Double click the window header. It will fill the space below the menu bar. Double click again and it will return to the previous size.
Agreed snapping would be nice. Windows does this well out of the box. MacOS leaves way too much quality of life to third party apps.
Agreed snapping would be nice. Windows does this well out of the box. MacOS leaves way too much quality of life to third party apps.
It won't necessarily. Double clicking the window header is the green button of yore where apps maximize to the space they feel they need which may or may not be the space below the menu bar. Chrome will fill the space but Safari will just do website width + length.
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> It has some user application UX issues (like Google Chrome mouse scrolls slowly)
Try the "Chromium Wheel Scroll Smoother" extension. It's a hack, but I've managed to make scrolling as fast as Firefox is, which I much prefer.
Try the "Chromium Wheel Scroll Smoother" extension. It's a hack, but I've managed to make scrolling as fast as Firefox is, which I much prefer.
Similar story (tho a bit less than 2 decades)
KDE on manjaro here.
KDE on manjaro here.
I've been using Linux for 21 years. I currently have to deal with maintaining specialty software for 50+ computers.
From everything I've seen I dread upgrading to Windows 11 only slightly less than just figuring out how to convert it all to work on Linux somehow. I imagine like everyone I will put it off until the last possible second.
No need to reply about how you can do everything on Linux now, until wine works perfectly with $100k equipment that only works with Windows software from 2004 100% of the time it's too risky ;-)
The point is that I understand how much of a pain it would be to convert to using Linux and still think it could potentially be worth it compared to upgrading to Windows 11. I would never consider it at all if it was just an OS instead of an experience... what are the odds that the software works on Windows 11 perfectly anyway, my experience going from Windows 7 to Windows 10 was pretty miserable and that was 3 years after Windows 10 was standard.
From everything I've seen I dread upgrading to Windows 11 only slightly less than just figuring out how to convert it all to work on Linux somehow. I imagine like everyone I will put it off until the last possible second.
No need to reply about how you can do everything on Linux now, until wine works perfectly with $100k equipment that only works with Windows software from 2004 100% of the time it's too risky ;-)
The point is that I understand how much of a pain it would be to convert to using Linux and still think it could potentially be worth it compared to upgrading to Windows 11. I would never consider it at all if it was just an OS instead of an experience... what are the odds that the software works on Windows 11 perfectly anyway, my experience going from Windows 7 to Windows 10 was pretty miserable and that was 3 years after Windows 10 was standard.
Well, what are you going to do. Not use Windows?
Linux still barely works in 2022 (and if one distro will become really popular, with a big investment of money like Ubuntu did once, they will ad ads, like Ubuntu added Amazon), and MacOS works just on Apple HW (and has ads for Apple services baked-in too, just less obnoxious).
You can use ChromeOS! Which is literally ad tech.
Pick your poison.
Linux still barely works in 2022 (and if one distro will become really popular, with a big investment of money like Ubuntu did once, they will ad ads, like Ubuntu added Amazon), and MacOS works just on Apple HW (and has ads for Apple services baked-in too, just less obnoxious).
You can use ChromeOS! Which is literally ad tech.
Pick your poison.
Honestly, I picked my poison in 2010 or so: MacOS. You're right that it does have Apple services baked in, and that it is limited to Apple's hardware.
To the former: I never use them and they literally never push themselves on me.
To the latter: Apple's hardware is far and away the most pleasant to use. Every windows machine I've used in the last decade (bought an XPS 13 in 2019 out of necessity) is just wonky. Feels less polished on the hardware side, and fighting with drivers and bloatware is not what I want to deal with. Like, does a laptop really need some stupid, custom audio interface to be able to control whether I'm using a headphone jack or built-in speakers? On the XPS, you do. It's absurd.
To the former: I never use them and they literally never push themselves on me.
To the latter: Apple's hardware is far and away the most pleasant to use. Every windows machine I've used in the last decade (bought an XPS 13 in 2019 out of necessity) is just wonky. Feels less polished on the hardware side, and fighting with drivers and bloatware is not what I want to deal with. Like, does a laptop really need some stupid, custom audio interface to be able to control whether I'm using a headphone jack or built-in speakers? On the XPS, you do. It's absurd.
I mean Apple put a whole stupid ARM chip in my laptop to interface with the keyboard and trackpad (among other things). This has the "fun" benefit of essentially killing support for non-blessed OSs because who wants to use a laptop that doesn't have a functional built-in keyboard and mouse? Oh and I've even had Bridge OS crash a few times knocking out the keyboard and mouse in macOS forcing me to restart.
> Linux still barely works in 2022
You're getting a lot of comments about "what do you mean linux barely works" but I switched to Linux full time in the middle of Windows 10 and know exactly what you mean. There's a lot of stuff in Linux that's simply _different_ than Windows, and general infamiliarity means that some things that you know how to do on Windows seems to be impossible on Linux, until you learn how Linux and your particular distro chooses to organize things
But then Windows has the same problems as compared to Linux. I switched to Linux for programming purposes, and there's a lot of things that Linux does that I don't know the easy way to do in Windows[0]. Ultimately both OSes are simply different, and once you get used to one the other starts to seem really weird
That being said, a lot of things in Linux do take a lot more effort than in Windows. Part of it's because Linux is made by programmers for programmers. In MacOS, it either works or it's not possible. In Windows, it might work out of the box, it might take tweaking some registry keys, or it might simply not be a thing you can do (the latter category is fairly rare). In Linux, it might work out of the box, or it might takes you a couple of weeks of chasing down weird issues and compiling random patches from GitHub gists to fix something that really shouldn't be a problem in the first place
[0] For example, "search all files in this directory and its subdirectories for this particular phrase" is `grep -nR phrase` in a Linux terminal. In Windows I think I'd probably open the folder in VS Code and use its search tool. In the Windows case I can then click around to look at the results, or in the Linux case I can pipe it into a file and open it in vim and be able to grep my grep. They might eventually accomplish the same thing, but there's just different ways to do it, and I think which one is better depends heavily on what you prefer and what kind of work you're doing
You're getting a lot of comments about "what do you mean linux barely works" but I switched to Linux full time in the middle of Windows 10 and know exactly what you mean. There's a lot of stuff in Linux that's simply _different_ than Windows, and general infamiliarity means that some things that you know how to do on Windows seems to be impossible on Linux, until you learn how Linux and your particular distro chooses to organize things
But then Windows has the same problems as compared to Linux. I switched to Linux for programming purposes, and there's a lot of things that Linux does that I don't know the easy way to do in Windows[0]. Ultimately both OSes are simply different, and once you get used to one the other starts to seem really weird
That being said, a lot of things in Linux do take a lot more effort than in Windows. Part of it's because Linux is made by programmers for programmers. In MacOS, it either works or it's not possible. In Windows, it might work out of the box, it might take tweaking some registry keys, or it might simply not be a thing you can do (the latter category is fairly rare). In Linux, it might work out of the box, or it might takes you a couple of weeks of chasing down weird issues and compiling random patches from GitHub gists to fix something that really shouldn't be a problem in the first place
[0] For example, "search all files in this directory and its subdirectories for this particular phrase" is `grep -nR phrase` in a Linux terminal. In Windows I think I'd probably open the folder in VS Code and use its search tool. In the Windows case I can then click around to look at the results, or in the Linux case I can pipe it into a file and open it in vim and be able to grep my grep. They might eventually accomplish the same thing, but there's just different ways to do it, and I think which one is better depends heavily on what you prefer and what kind of work you're doing
Launching Chrome to run ripgrep is not “just a different way to do it.” It’s more similar to setting up winetricks to run a game on Linux.
Though honestly, I do think you can just install ripgrep and use it in PowerShell.
Though honestly, I do think you can just install ripgrep and use it in PowerShell.
>Linux still barely works in 2022
I have had zero problem running linux as my daily driver for the last 10 years, care to explain your comment? The only problem that I have is that video games don't always work because the developers don't care.
I have had zero problem running linux as my daily driver for the last 10 years, care to explain your comment? The only problem that I have is that video games don't always work because the developers don't care.
I see this argument in every thread about Linux. There's always this one magical user where everything "just works", has had 0 issues and everything's just dandy.
The funny thing is, it's not the year of the Linux desktop, but it's increasingly not the year of the Windows desktop anymore either. "Linux is shit, and Windows just works" is becoming less true as we go; so Linux being bad stops being as convincing an argument when Windows is frustrating in different ways.
I’m not going to lie and say Linux is problem free, but “barely works” is a massive exaggeration. Linux works just fine. Windows isn’t problem free. I use windows for work and it’s often a roll of the dice whether my monitors will got to sleep properly, or if windows will deign to recognize my keyboard on boot.
Linux is not a 0 issue OS, but I use roughly the same methods and reasoning to get it to workable state as I might on Windows 10 and I wouldn't say it even takes much longer. Linux is surely cheaper. The difference is, Linux can keep growing in the direction you want and choose.
What are some specific issues? Most of the stuff I hear is either hardware related or some software someone used on Windows doesn't exist on Linux. For hardware issues it depends on the hardware you're using. Since most drivers aren't open source, full Linux support often comes a while after it's released. I don't use the most recent hardware and haven't had a problem where something doesn't "just work" in years. I don't even remember the last time. Not being able to use cutting edge hardware is a price I'm willing to pay because it actually saves you money. This is also why there is a big push for open hardware.
There's 3 categories in my experience:
- Hardware support - if you don't have any special needs, it tends to work well, but as soon as you go into exotic stuff like digitizers or DP daisy chaining, GPU switching, or you are just plain unlucky, expect a world of hurt
- UI Papercuts: There's a ton of these - like extracting files in GUI is by far the least intuitive under GNOME compared to other OS's, no thumbnails, pdf reader can't be set to exactly how I like it, and made to remember it, etc. - every DE has its own niggles. The fact that every DE has its own set of apps - if using GNOME it comes with its own pdf reader, god forbid you use a third-party one, creates a strange culty feeling among app devs. Also, closed source, monetized apps are reviled, even if they solve a problem better than anything open source.
- Development experience: Ironically terrible. Binary compatibility is nonexistent, compiling stuff generally involves apt-geting (or equivalent) packages and hoping you have the right versions in the repos. Some of the stuff in the repos doesn't even work (insta-crashes), due to being built wrong.
- Hardware support - if you don't have any special needs, it tends to work well, but as soon as you go into exotic stuff like digitizers or DP daisy chaining, GPU switching, or you are just plain unlucky, expect a world of hurt
- UI Papercuts: There's a ton of these - like extracting files in GUI is by far the least intuitive under GNOME compared to other OS's, no thumbnails, pdf reader can't be set to exactly how I like it, and made to remember it, etc. - every DE has its own niggles. The fact that every DE has its own set of apps - if using GNOME it comes with its own pdf reader, god forbid you use a third-party one, creates a strange culty feeling among app devs. Also, closed source, monetized apps are reviled, even if they solve a problem better than anything open source.
- Development experience: Ironically terrible. Binary compatibility is nonexistent, compiling stuff generally involves apt-geting (or equivalent) packages and hoping you have the right versions in the repos. Some of the stuff in the repos doesn't even work (insta-crashes), due to being built wrong.
4k + 1080 monitor on nvidia gpu is very difficult to use (wayland doesn’t support nvidia until very recently, I’m not even sure if it is merged yet). X doesn’t support per monitor dpi, and fractional scaling per monitor is buggy on most distros.
Ubuntu keeps forgetting the sound devices output I set, and I have to config it every single time the machine comes back from sleep (I’m using sound via hdmi on my monitor, I’m guessing it has something to do with the monitor sleeping in different way).
And the usual, sleep/ suspend doesn’t work. There are 50% chance of my 4k monitor doesn’t come back up after sleeping, and I have to unplug and replug it in for it to work.
Ubuntu keeps forgetting the sound devices output I set, and I have to config it every single time the machine comes back from sleep (I’m using sound via hdmi on my monitor, I’m guessing it has something to do with the monitor sleeping in different way).
And the usual, sleep/ suspend doesn’t work. There are 50% chance of my 4k monitor doesn’t come back up after sleeping, and I have to unplug and replug it in for it to work.
Last time I tried updating Ubuntu on my parents' PC, it completely fell over because it tried to throw up a dialog on a console in the middle of the update, even though I was doing a GUI update. When I killed that (uninteractible, permanently froze the update) process, the system autorebooted in a desktopless state. Now, I knew to use `dpkg --reconfigure` from a root shell to fix this, but a layman would have been stumped and had to reinstall. 2021 at least was not the year of the Linux desktop in our household.
(Let alone the dozen of small KDE issues we've had over the years. It's really easy to get that desktop in an uninteractible state if you click the wrong things.)
(Let alone the dozen of small KDE issues we've had over the years. It's really easy to get that desktop in an uninteractible state if you click the wrong things.)
>What are some specific issues?
Hardware support.
Broken UI experience.
Poorly designed subsystems. See PulseAudio.
Cognitive overload. Thousands of distros with tens of desktop environments using different toolkits. Each desktop environment has its own suite of software. So instead of having a solid set of great working apps there are tons of poorly made apps.
If you need to use Visual Studio, Photoshop, Lightroom, 3d max, Autocad, Premiere Pro, Ableton Live, Mathcad etc., you are out of luck.
Hardware support.
Broken UI experience.
Poorly designed subsystems. See PulseAudio.
Cognitive overload. Thousands of distros with tens of desktop environments using different toolkits. Each desktop environment has its own suite of software. So instead of having a solid set of great working apps there are tons of poorly made apps.
If you need to use Visual Studio, Photoshop, Lightroom, 3d max, Autocad, Premiere Pro, Ableton Live, Mathcad etc., you are out of luck.
>What are some specific issues?
the gnome filepicker has no thumbnails
the gnome filepicker has no thumbnails
In Gnome I cannot add certain binaries to the dock unless I edit a file and point to it. Basic feature that both MacOS and Windows support.
I guess I'm the second magical user.
I wouldn't say I've had zero issues or that everything just works, but things tend to fail less often or in less inscrutable ways than Windows or MacOS.
[flagged]
>they don't care for the fingerprint reader anyway
does anyone actually use those? i've always thought they were a stupid gimmick
does anyone actually use those? i've always thought they were a stupid gimmick
Most newer fingerprint reader models work well on Linux. I have a Mac and a Windows laptop for the few times something doesn't work on Linux. which is vanishingly rare these days.
Just try preinstalled Linux with support. Works for me.
Hi I'm another magical user
holyyikes(2)
Not the parent comment but I'm getting random freezes on two different machines with different guts; sometimes system resumes and sometimes it requires a hard reset. Doesn't matter if its Manjaro or Linux Mint or Fedora, or which kernel I'm using.
My GPU is no longer supported and I couldn't revert to last working Nvidia drivers in Manjaro because things were changed. Not sure how the open source version is capable of rendering 3D or compatible with Lutris/Wine.
It's not the "barely works" in my case but there are issues around that are giving me a feeling I'm using Windows 98 and ME again.
My GPU is no longer supported and I couldn't revert to last working Nvidia drivers in Manjaro because things were changed. Not sure how the open source version is capable of rendering 3D or compatible with Lutris/Wine.
It's not the "barely works" in my case but there are issues around that are giving me a feeling I'm using Windows 98 and ME again.
I can see 3 possible things there
1) Nvidia being Nvidia
If both PCs have Nvidia...
Back when I had Nvidia, I had exactly same problem. Random freezes, no matter which distro/kernel, sometimes needed reset.
2) RAM issue
As much as its unlikely on both machines, testing RAM doesn't hurt
3) Hard drive degradation
Similar results as in 1), but buying new disk solved the issue.
One machines has mentioned Nvidia GPU, the second is ATI, RAM is also different on both machines and tested already. The issue occurs on both SSDs and HDDs.
Last time I tried Ubuntu it exclaimed I'm not "the owner" of my external hard drive and wouldn't let me access my files. Very fundamental basics completely broken somehow.
I have been ArchLinux desktop and laptop daily user for 10+ years. I used Gentoo for a year before and still use Gentoo on the server until today.
Yes, occassionally there is a problem. HW incompatinility (new laptops), missing drivers (rarely as I am explicitly trying to buy well-supported HW), won't boot after a bad update (messed up ramdisk or config file) but easily fixable. You have to get used to couple of annoyances. But KDE DE is awesome, KDE Connect for Android too and lots of software works perfectly and let me do jobs I daily do. I have zero need to switch to Mac or Windows (used both before as well) and I enjoy having more control over my computing, updates, configuration. I can pick almost any HW I want on the desktop. I am not limited by a single range of badly-built, heavy and easy to dent macbooks, etc.
But people are different with different needs. It is not for everyone. Though I am really a happy linux user and do not plan to change that and I don't care about any M1 marketing bullshit, truetone or windows defender, cortana or whatever. Those may be nice-to-have, provide couple of fancy slight conviniences but in the end the actual hard work is done by all your skills, not the machine or OS.
Yes, occassionally there is a problem. HW incompatinility (new laptops), missing drivers (rarely as I am explicitly trying to buy well-supported HW), won't boot after a bad update (messed up ramdisk or config file) but easily fixable. You have to get used to couple of annoyances. But KDE DE is awesome, KDE Connect for Android too and lots of software works perfectly and let me do jobs I daily do. I have zero need to switch to Mac or Windows (used both before as well) and I enjoy having more control over my computing, updates, configuration. I can pick almost any HW I want on the desktop. I am not limited by a single range of badly-built, heavy and easy to dent macbooks, etc.
But people are different with different needs. It is not for everyone. Though I am really a happy linux user and do not plan to change that and I don't care about any M1 marketing bullshit, truetone or windows defender, cortana or whatever. Those may be nice-to-have, provide couple of fancy slight conviniences but in the end the actual hard work is done by all your skills, not the machine or OS.
I run Linux mint as my daily machine. It just works? I have yet to find a substantive issue with it (other than video gaming, but that doesn't really count for most people's use).
I've been running Linux ever since Windows 11 was announced, even though I was relatively happy with W10 + WSL. I had tried it quite a few times over the years but had never stuck with it until now, because it all just works... All my games have worked mostly flawlessly. I'm a developer, so all my tools were already available. I'm in love with KDE's design and customizability and relatively happy with its performance. The AUR is a godsend.
I actually have to use office quite a bit and settled on freeoffice (which is freeware and not open source). It works perfectly for my needs. The Teams client is crap but I've always dodged it.
Evolution suits my needs (O365 connectivity + a host of other personal email accounts). We still need a better Linux email client, I'm seriously considering it making it my lifetime hobby project (I'm imagining a server + client implementation to make it easier to decouple the UI as I'd really like both a TUI and GUI).
The only thing for which I spin up a VM every now and then is for graphics editing (I use the affinity suite which is amazing for its price but just doesn't work with Wine).
Really the only people who can't use reliably use Linux are those who use proprietary apps that don't work on Wine (which there aren't that many) and designers. If you're a power user I'd definitely recommend you give a spin. You might like what you find.
I actually have to use office quite a bit and settled on freeoffice (which is freeware and not open source). It works perfectly for my needs. The Teams client is crap but I've always dodged it.
Evolution suits my needs (O365 connectivity + a host of other personal email accounts). We still need a better Linux email client, I'm seriously considering it making it my lifetime hobby project (I'm imagining a server + client implementation to make it easier to decouple the UI as I'd really like both a TUI and GUI).
The only thing for which I spin up a VM every now and then is for graphics editing (I use the affinity suite which is amazing for its price but just doesn't work with Wine).
Really the only people who can't use reliably use Linux are those who use proprietary apps that don't work on Wine (which there aren't that many) and designers. If you're a power user I'd definitely recommend you give a spin. You might like what you find.
> I'm a developer, so all my tools were already available.
I use Visual Studio, so that is not my case. And besides working I use Photoshop and Lightroom a lot. And some gaming, which I can't do on Linux.
Apart from that, even not doing anything else in Linux but browsing the web is a poor experience for me.
I use Visual Studio, so that is not my case. And besides working I use Photoshop and Lightroom a lot. And some gaming, which I can't do on Linux.
Apart from that, even not doing anything else in Linux but browsing the web is a poor experience for me.
Well, around 2% of PC users use Linux. It might be a small percentage but in absolute terms it's still a big number of users. And about 25% of developers use Linux.
And about 90% of phone users use Android, which is (distantly) based on Linux. That's a lot of users!
And about 90% of phone users use Android, which is (distantly) based on Linux. That's a lot of users!
> "Linux still barely works in 2022"
What do you mean by this?
What do you mean by this?
I find it hilarious that people even entertain the idea that the only roadblock for MacOS is that it only works on Apple hardware. Gamers would NOT want an OS run by those psychopaths. MacOS is junk.
And Valve/Steamdeck is really just creating even more Windows dependence. Because of Proton everyone just assumes you don't need to make cross platform games anymore, so game devs are just happy making Windows only games.
And Valve/Steamdeck is really just creating even more Windows dependence. Because of Proton everyone just assumes you don't need to make cross platform games anymore, so game devs are just happy making Windows only games.
The only direction Windows should go is being more modular and less features.
Speed is probably the only feature all users want.
So make all features modular with advanced user being able to remove and get a lean and mean OS.
We want less, we want speed.
P. S. It is about time to upgrade the File System. It is too slow...
So make all features modular with advanced user being able to remove and get a lean and mean OS.
We want less, we want speed.
P. S. It is about time to upgrade the File System. It is too slow...
Wholeheartedly support this. I want my OS to be as boring as possible so that I can do all the interesting things I want.
The problem with this is fragmentation, if I understand you correctly.
It's one of the two reasons why Linux isn't ubiquitous on the desktop. (The other being open source doesn't provide enough incentive to do the boring unsexy work)
Fragmentation kills support. Imagine non technical users searching for help on an issue. First finding articles on Windows, then version X, then getting 'only applies with piece X, Y, Z installed'. That's already a problem and the suggestion of making Windows less 'batteries included' would make it harder for the mainstream users, who are the bulk of users.
Fragmentation also kills products, it increases development costs, reduces velocity etc.
Microsoft knew/knows how to make a better product, they just don't choose to because they evaluate they can make more money by screwing consumers over.
In my opinion we need regulation regarding anti-features. It's not perfect but it's the approach that is the answer in the non-digital world.
It's one of the two reasons why Linux isn't ubiquitous on the desktop. (The other being open source doesn't provide enough incentive to do the boring unsexy work)
Fragmentation kills support. Imagine non technical users searching for help on an issue. First finding articles on Windows, then version X, then getting 'only applies with piece X, Y, Z installed'. That's already a problem and the suggestion of making Windows less 'batteries included' would make it harder for the mainstream users, who are the bulk of users.
Fragmentation also kills products, it increases development costs, reduces velocity etc.
Microsoft knew/knows how to make a better product, they just don't choose to because they evaluate they can make more money by screwing consumers over.
In my opinion we need regulation regarding anti-features. It's not perfect but it's the approach that is the answer in the non-digital world.
ReFS has the stink of death all over it. It's been the "next generation" filesystem for Windows since 2012, with no signs of ever graduating to being the current filesystem -- in fact, a 2017 update to Windows 10 removed the ability for most desktop systems to create ReFS volumes.
ReFS is a poor man's version of btrfs much in the same way btrfs is a poor man's version of ZFS. It's also apparent that ReFS is basically abandoned.
It's not abandoned, but the intended use case is not consumer use:
https://gist.github.com/0xbadfca11/da0598e47dd643d933dc
https://gist.github.com/0xbadfca11/da0598e47dd643d933dc
Windows users need a change in priorities. FTFY.
The OS has gone to shit, but people keep right on using it and complaining about how bad it's getting. What is your lame priority for sticking with it? Don't tell me gaming - get a console or VR headset, or steam on Linux. If you're that hung up on one game that doesn't run anywhere else then again you need to change your priorities. If it's using Excel or Word with a bunch of customizations that won't work in LibreOffice, again you need to change your priorities or approach to solving the problems you did that to solve.
The OS has gone to shit, but people keep right on using it and complaining about how bad it's getting. What is your lame priority for sticking with it? Don't tell me gaming - get a console or VR headset, or steam on Linux. If you're that hung up on one game that doesn't run anywhere else then again you need to change your priorities. If it's using Excel or Word with a bunch of customizations that won't work in LibreOffice, again you need to change your priorities or approach to solving the problems you did that to solve.
> What is your lame priority for sticking with it? Don't tell me gaming - get a console or VR headset, or steam on Linux.
Tell me you're not a gamer without telling me you're not a gamer.
The desire to play with mouse + keyboard is reason enough to stick with a PC. Wanting to play in 1440p @ 144 fps is another. First-class support for Discord. Steam sales. I could go on and on about reasons to play on PC.
Steam on Linux is getting better, and the success of the Steam Deck might convince developers to offer greater Linux support, but it's still not at the level it needs to be. Not to mention this argument completely ignores non-Steam games like League of Legends. It kind of works on Linux...sometimes...and with a lot of configuration and work.
Also, the suggestion to just get a VR headset is absurd.
Tell me you're not a gamer without telling me you're not a gamer.
The desire to play with mouse + keyboard is reason enough to stick with a PC. Wanting to play in 1440p @ 144 fps is another. First-class support for Discord. Steam sales. I could go on and on about reasons to play on PC.
Steam on Linux is getting better, and the success of the Steam Deck might convince developers to offer greater Linux support, but it's still not at the level it needs to be. Not to mention this argument completely ignores non-Steam games like League of Legends. It kind of works on Linux...sometimes...and with a lot of configuration and work.
Also, the suggestion to just get a VR headset is absurd.
Installing League via Lutris is not that difficult. It's certainly not as idiot-proof as it needs to be, but the average Linux user should be capable of following the relatively simple instructions provided by communities like /r/leagueoflinux. It also runs pretty well, at least for me.
Unpopular opinion: I use Windows because it does what I want it to do. Not for lack of knowing alternatives - I've been using Linux on desktops and servers for well over two decades now.
I don't really care about the telemetry. For some reason, I don't see the in-UI ads people are complaining about. Yes, sometimes I'm annoyed by it. I'm even more annoyed when I run Linux on desktops. So what?
And don't get me started on just how condescending it is for you to be telling people their priorities are wrong because they are not yours. There's nothing wrong with sticking to Windows because that one game you're hung up on doesn't run on Windows. There's nothing wrong with using Excel or Word because that one extension you're using doesn't work or doesn't exist on LibreOffice. Telling people to "get a console or VR headset" for gaming instead of their Windows rig with the latest AAA-games that won't run on Linux (yet)? That's just obnoxiously ignorant.
I don't really care about the telemetry. For some reason, I don't see the in-UI ads people are complaining about. Yes, sometimes I'm annoyed by it. I'm even more annoyed when I run Linux on desktops. So what?
And don't get me started on just how condescending it is for you to be telling people their priorities are wrong because they are not yours. There's nothing wrong with sticking to Windows because that one game you're hung up on doesn't run on Windows. There's nothing wrong with using Excel or Word because that one extension you're using doesn't work or doesn't exist on LibreOffice. Telling people to "get a console or VR headset" for gaming instead of their Windows rig with the latest AAA-games that won't run on Linux (yet)? That's just obnoxiously ignorant.
Maybe I use it for work? Or because WINE isn't perfect for everything that I need to use, and I don't want to spend hours trying to configure it?
What about basic users? They don't care whether they should be using KDE Plasma or a Gnome-based window manager etc - maybe they want something that 'just works'
What about basic users? They don't care whether they should be using KDE Plasma or a Gnome-based window manager etc - maybe they want something that 'just works'
>> What about basic users? They don't care whether they should be using KDE Plasma or a Gnome-based window manager etc - maybe they want something that 'just works'
There are Linux distributions and MacOS that "just work" a LOT better than Windows these days.
There are Linux distributions and MacOS that "just work" a LOT better than Windows these days.
>What is your lame priority for sticking with it?
Adobe and Autodesk products.
>If it's using Excel or Word with a bunch of customizations that won't work in LibreOffice, again you need to change your priorities or approach to solving the problems you did that to solve.
Only because MS is hell-bent on destroying their ecosystem. As long as Windows 10 is still receiving security updates, I can keep getting actual work done instead of investing a ton of time into things I care nothing about. I have no interest in developing office/photo/cad software, only in using those things.
Adobe and Autodesk products.
>If it's using Excel or Word with a bunch of customizations that won't work in LibreOffice, again you need to change your priorities or approach to solving the problems you did that to solve.
Only because MS is hell-bent on destroying their ecosystem. As long as Windows 10 is still receiving security updates, I can keep getting actual work done instead of investing a ton of time into things I care nothing about. I have no interest in developing office/photo/cad software, only in using those things.
Nope, not interested in defending my choice in OS to some rando on the internet. Sorry pal, I don't care what you think. I have the right to use whatever OS I choose.
These problems tend to work themselves out naturally - when you purposefully damage your user experience, you lose the early tech adopters that originally drove your product growth. They instead flock to a competitor that leaves you holding your bag of a shitty product.
There are a few companies flirting with this dangerous line right now and it opens them up completely for disruption, which is the opposite of what they want.
There are a few companies flirting with this dangerous line right now and it opens them up completely for disruption, which is the opposite of what they want.
I don't think pleasing tech adopters is what help windows at this point. Maybe 20 year ago, sure. Today, most consumers of Windows that are not business/enterprise, are probably doing it more so because that was the defacto OS for them when they were in grade school, and it has been the defacto OS on most computers sub $1K. We are seeing some market shift to chrome OS and there is probably a good future where Chrome OS displaces Windows massively. If it does, it won't be because of tech adopters and such. It will be because Chrome OS is what is gaining popularity for kids in school and they will grow up being used to.
Edit: Defacto above meaning, when I go into best buy, that is what is pre-loaded. Or I go to walmart, that is what comes on the computer.
Edit: 'there is probably a good future where Chrome OS' typo or poor wording. Meant to say something along the lines of, 'there is probably a good chance that a Chrome OS future happens'
Edit: Defacto above meaning, when I go into best buy, that is what is pre-loaded. Or I go to walmart, that is what comes on the computer.
Edit: 'there is probably a good future where Chrome OS' typo or poor wording. Meant to say something along the lines of, 'there is probably a good chance that a Chrome OS future happens'
If you think Chrome OS is going to save you, you haven't been paying attention to Google for the past 10 years.
I didn't say it was going to save me. I do think I had a type that said 'good future.' I meant to put something along the lines of 'good probability of a future.' Chrome OS is going to be another user hostile environment for sure. But the point is, Chrome OS has a good shot at displacing windows not because it is better or less user hostile, but because it is putting cheap machines in the hands of kids who will one day, grow up, and enter the workforce and lead the workforce later on.
Chrome OS has a good shot at displacing windows not because it is better or less user hostile, but because it is putting cheap machines in the hands of kids who will one day, grow up, and enter the workforce and lead the workforce later on.
That's even worse, because as the saying goes, those who never had freedom (or ownership, for that matter) won't miss it.
That's even worse, because as the saying goes, those who never had freedom (or ownership, for that matter) won't miss it.
Fear not; they'll deprecate Chrome OS and Stadia in the next few years and add it to https://killedbygoogle.com/ , which I see has just added AngularJS recently. Google Cloud Print stuck out there too, since we had a big thing about rolling that out at work just a few years ago as the future solution for all our printing needs.
Google does kill off a lot of products, but I wouldn't hold my breath on Chrome OS. It is paying off for them in the education space. They have an OS that ships on cheap computers that work well enough for students. Gets them in the google ecosystem and the mind set of Chrome OS is what a computer should be. Not to mention contracts in place with school systems that probably nets them easy money.
https://www.thurrott.com/mobile/chrome-os/chromebook/228534/....
https://www.thurrott.com/mobile/chrome-os/chromebook/228534/....
What is worst or better is not what matters in this instance. This is a matter of the reality of what will probably lead to the adoption of an OS. Would I be happy with Chrome OS displacing Windows? No. Am I happy with Windows having the market share it does? No. But what I want doesn't matter in adoption. What matters is, Chrome OS has a strategy that will probably work. And that strategy doesn't involve tech influences getting excited over the product, it is simply getting it in kid's hand so they think Chrome OS is how a computer should be. Regardless if that is true. That is why Linux adoption for the common user sucks, their first experience was probably Windows, so in their mind, Windows is how a computer should be.
Purchasing decision are made by business executives. I use windows because i am forced by my employer.
> kids who will one day, grow up, and enter the workforce and lead the workforce later on
I noticed chromebook getting big in the education space and really getting into the hands of kids 7 years so. Your business executives I assume are old enough to pre-date chromebook's big debut in eductaion? They likewise are probably most familiar with Windows and that is why they hand it down as the required bit of software? or probably a sweet business contract, that also plays a factor.
I noticed chromebook getting big in the education space and really getting into the hands of kids 7 years so. Your business executives I assume are old enough to pre-date chromebook's big debut in eductaion? They likewise are probably most familiar with Windows and that is why they hand it down as the required bit of software? or probably a sweet business contract, that also plays a factor.
you can do like I do, use window for nothing beside virtual box in which there's your real everyday OS.
I wish this was true, but there are a heck of a lot of office workers who have grown up with Windows and can never be trained to use anything else.
You'll get a lot of resistance and rationalisation about why they don't think Linux or BSD or whatever isn't as good, and that the training time is better used to just work.
You'll get a lot of resistance and rationalisation about why they don't think Linux or BSD or whatever isn't as good, and that the training time is better used to just work.
My kid just graduated high school last year.
She would tell me stories about how impressed her peers were with seeing her do something as basic as copy and paste, and navigating files + folders.
There is a generation of kids that have only ever grown up on tablets + the web, so; the desktop + office app market + ecosystem is ripe for disruption.
Maybe it's done right this time, and not married to a single browser version(ha) or platform runtime.
She would tell me stories about how impressed her peers were with seeing her do something as basic as copy and paste, and navigating files + folders.
There is a generation of kids that have only ever grown up on tablets + the web, so; the desktop + office app market + ecosystem is ripe for disruption.
Maybe it's done right this time, and not married to a single browser version(ha) or platform runtime.
> She would tell me stories about how impressed her peers were with seeing her do something as basic as copy and paste, and navigating files + folders.
> There is a generation of kids that have only ever grown up on tablets + the web, so; the desktop + office app market + ecosystem is ripe for disruption.
I'm not aware of any generation for which being comfortable with those things hasn't put one in, at least (I'm being very conservative), the top 20% of computer literacy. Most people are bad at just using a computer—given how long it's been a problem, there's either a lot of essential complexity there that cannot be mitigated or avoided to improve usability, or we as an industry have just done a terrible job designing desktop operating systems for regular people. I don't think tablets et c. have much to do with it.
> There is a generation of kids that have only ever grown up on tablets + the web, so; the desktop + office app market + ecosystem is ripe for disruption.
I'm not aware of any generation for which being comfortable with those things hasn't put one in, at least (I'm being very conservative), the top 20% of computer literacy. Most people are bad at just using a computer—given how long it's been a problem, there's either a lot of essential complexity there that cannot be mitigated or avoided to improve usability, or we as an industry have just done a terrible job designing desktop operating systems for regular people. I don't think tablets et c. have much to do with it.
who have grown up with Windows and can never be trained to use anything else.
When Windows itself is changing so much that it hardly resembles what it used to be, there's going to be a lot of relearning anyway.
On the other hand, you can make Linux look like any version of Windows if you really wanted to.
When Windows itself is changing so much that it hardly resembles what it used to be, there's going to be a lot of relearning anyway.
On the other hand, you can make Linux look like any version of Windows if you really wanted to.
If you want Linux to compete, you need spreadsheet software as good as Excel and a word processor that's 100% compatible with Word. I tried to use LibreOffice for a while but Calc ins't there yet and I had tons of formatting problems when I sent documents to Words users. After dealing with this for a while you just give up and start using Office again.
> you need spreadsheet software as good as Excel and a word processor that's 100% compatible with Word
IIRC I read an anecdote a few years back that if MS ever lost the code to their office products they couldn't re-implement it 100% compatible again since they don't completely abide by any standards like the Open Document Format.
I will always continue to harbor hatred for MSs Office products since when I had to write a big piece of homework for 9th grade in school (a "Facharbeit", kinda like a mini Bachelor's thesis as an intro to scientific writing) I then had to transfer the file from my computer via USB drive to my fathers' PC to print it out. Naive as i was, I didn't think to double-check the formatting after the transfer since it was the same software on the same version on the same OS etc. Ended getting a "1 (very good)" for content but the formatting grade was so bad it dragged the combined mark down to a "3 (satisfactory)". Since then I'll only print documents after converting to pdf and double-checking everything is ok and will never voluntarily use an MS Office product ever again.
IIRC I read an anecdote a few years back that if MS ever lost the code to their office products they couldn't re-implement it 100% compatible again since they don't completely abide by any standards like the Open Document Format.
I will always continue to harbor hatred for MSs Office products since when I had to write a big piece of homework for 9th grade in school (a "Facharbeit", kinda like a mini Bachelor's thesis as an intro to scientific writing) I then had to transfer the file from my computer via USB drive to my fathers' PC to print it out. Naive as i was, I didn't think to double-check the formatting after the transfer since it was the same software on the same version on the same OS etc. Ended getting a "1 (very good)" for content but the formatting grade was so bad it dragged the combined mark down to a "3 (satisfactory)". Since then I'll only print documents after converting to pdf and double-checking everything is ok and will never voluntarily use an MS Office product ever again.
It’s a shame Office went to the continually updated subscription model. Older versions of office ran excellently under wine.
I don't want to pull back the curtain too much or tramp on everyone's hopes, but Linux can't compete with Microsoft because of UEFI. The PCs being sold today only allow Microsoft's software to run. In order to distribute a Linux distro, you have to ask Microsoft to give you a shim where they've signed your private key, so that you can share your own signed kernel builds with others. Therefore you can't publish a Linux desktop for consumers without being in league with the adversary.
I believe many UEFI implementations allow you to replace the secure boot keys with your own.
I've not done it personally as most of my machines I just disable Secure Boot, but it's an option if you know about it and buy carefully.
I've not done it personally as most of my machines I just disable Secure Boot, but it's an option if you know about it and buy carefully.
That's why I was used the word consumers. Rolling your own crypto will let you work around the requirement of asking Microsoft for permission to install our own operating system. But it limits the audience for your work to the technical class.
/me removes foot from mouth
I see what you mean now, I screwed up reading your first comment.
I see what you mean now, I screwed up reading your first comment.
I think this is the first time someone has ever reacted non-negatively towards me online after I brought up the subject. UEFI has good PR and I think people refuse to believe the implications of what happened. It would be like having Google officially be the only CA for HTTPS certificates and then removing HTTP from Chrome. That's basically what the security community did with PCs.
That surprises me. Much better in my opinion to listen then to assume I know better - especially because I'm familiar with your work.
Even though Secure Boot can be disabled on most hardware afaict [0] that's still a step consumers won't take so the point still stands easily. Especially with the amount of "you will break everything and kick a a puppy" that manufacturers throw in there to disuade anyone who manages to get to the menu.
[0] worked at a repair ahop until 1.5ish weeks ago, have disabled SB on a lot of hardware.
Even though Secure Boot can be disabled on most hardware afaict [0] that's still a step consumers won't take so the point still stands easily. Especially with the amount of "you will break everything and kick a a puppy" that manufacturers throw in there to disuade anyone who manages to get to the menu.
[0] worked at a repair ahop until 1.5ish weeks ago, have disabled SB on a lot of hardware.
Source? I've installed Ubuntu on half a dozen newish UEFI computers, some of which came with OEM Windows, over the past few years with no trouble https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UEFI/SecureBoot
The source is in your own link. Also note, the person you replied to went on to emphasize 'consumer' in a followup comment, which I think makes the point much more salient.
[1]: "On Ubuntu, all pre-built binaries intended to be loaded as part of the boot process, with the exception of the initrd image, are signed by Canonical's UEFI certificate, which itself is implicitly trusted by being embedded in the shim loader, itself signed by Microsoft.
On architectures or systems where pre-loaded signing certificates from Microsoft are not available or loaded in firmware, users may replace the existing signatures on shim or grub and load them as they wish, verifying against their own certificates imported in the system's firmware."
[1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UEFI/SecureBoot#How_UEFI_Secure_Boot...
[1]: "On Ubuntu, all pre-built binaries intended to be loaded as part of the boot process, with the exception of the initrd image, are signed by Canonical's UEFI certificate, which itself is implicitly trusted by being embedded in the shim loader, itself signed by Microsoft.
On architectures or systems where pre-loaded signing certificates from Microsoft are not available or loaded in firmware, users may replace the existing signatures on shim or grub and load them as they wish, verifying against their own certificates imported in the system's firmware."
[1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UEFI/SecureBoot#How_UEFI_Secure_Boot...
Is there a source for this?
And also, can’t you just disable Secure Boot?
And also, can’t you just disable Secure Boot?
There's WPS Office that runs on Windows, MacOS, and Linux. The user interface has a level of polish that rivals Microsoft Office. Sadly, I didn't have a chance to explore if it is seamless to move a file between MS Office and WPS Office.
It's not about cosmetic similarities.
Linux would kill it if it made it trivially easy to run Windows inside a sanitised and privatised container or VM that prevented telemetry and all the other nonsense.
I suspect a lot of people would accept a modest performance hit if that were possible.
Linux would kill it if it made it trivially easy to run Windows inside a sanitised and privatised container or VM that prevented telemetry and all the other nonsense.
I suspect a lot of people would accept a modest performance hit if that were possible.
That’s true but the new generation have grown up with (for better or worse) web/apps. Once they are the main workforce, they will be much less reluctant to switch to whatever OS.
You're not wrong, but office users should be locked to a browser in 2022 anyway. What do they need Windows for? They can all use a web browser.
Microsoft has done an amazing job convincing the office world they need Windows, when they don't need a single feature that it provides in 99% of cases.
Microsoft has done an amazing job convincing the office world they need Windows, when they don't need a single feature that it provides in 99% of cases.
As an officer worker, there are many many things I do that cannot be done in a web browser. File comparison tools, macros and complex excel queries, hard applications for both new and legacy critical programs...
Can this be done on Linux? Frequently. Can it be done in a web browser? Rarely effectively and often not at all.
Can this be done on Linux? Frequently. Can it be done in a web browser? Rarely effectively and often not at all.
I can vouch for personal experience with macros and Linux, since I made my return to it this month. It's not ideal yet, but it's workable, and there's a generational transition taking place while moving from x11 to Wayland, since the two have different notions of input, so you have to wander through some compatibility stuff to find your way.
This is annoying, but already much better than the Windows story, because you can customize things right down to the kernel level and generally get the result you're looking for in a pretty direct fashion. I now have it set up so that it detects the model of keyboard I plugged in and redirects specific models to specific macro layers - a seemingly obvious two-keyboards use case that can be a serious hassle on Windows without resorting to a hardware solution.
This is annoying, but already much better than the Windows story, because you can customize things right down to the kernel level and generally get the result you're looking for in a pretty direct fashion. I now have it set up so that it detects the model of keyboard I plugged in and redirects specific models to specific macro layers - a seemingly obvious two-keyboards use case that can be a serious hassle on Windows without resorting to a hardware solution.
They were talking about Excel macros, not sure if you're talking about the same kind of macros.
That's fair - I would still be curious to know what percentage of office workers run Windows that don't actually need to.
Isn't Excel feature-complete in the browser now, macros and all?
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365
VBA macros aren't supported. Last time I checked even conditional formatting wasn't supported, although I see now it was added in January 2022 [1]. Even so, as with many other features, the web UI is different and more limited. Links to documents stored locally or on an SMB share don't work. Scrolling through thousands of rows is laggy. Generally, Excel Online is useless for the complex spreadsheets used in large enterprises, which themselves are often workarounds for the limitations of the web apps the enterprise is supposed to run on.
[1]: https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/excel-blog/new-condit...
[1]: https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/excel-blog/new-condit...
In theory, yes.
However Excel Online breaks down quickly with large file sizes, loses formatting and struggles mightily with complex macros.
However Excel Online breaks down quickly with large file sizes, loses formatting and struggles mightily with complex macros.
Just wait till they start running those "native" programs in a VM on a server and streaming the UI to you in a browser for interaction.
Last i heard they experimented with windows running in the cloud and the user having just a kind of thin client.
It is hilarious that 20 years after SUN's "The network is the computer" and some years after freedesktop's initiatives "wayland", "X is obsolete" "X on network sucks", Microsoft is coming doing just this.
I'd have to say that, today, all of those can be done in the browser except Excel.
File comparison, hard applications, legacy code, can be compiled to WASM and run quite well in the browser. The pieces are in place to do it, they just need polishing and tuning to make it ubiquitous. Even Excel could be compiled like this but again MS wants to own you and pin you over a barrel while extracting everything they can from you, so Excel won't be available. But many/most Spreadsheets can be done in Libreoffice, or code or no/low code alternatives.
File comparison, hard applications, legacy code, can be compiled to WASM and run quite well in the browser. The pieces are in place to do it, they just need polishing and tuning to make it ubiquitous. Even Excel could be compiled like this but again MS wants to own you and pin you over a barrel while extracting everything they can from you, so Excel won't be available. But many/most Spreadsheets can be done in Libreoffice, or code or no/low code alternatives.
>File comparison, hard applications, legacy code, can be compiled to WASM and run quite well in the browser.
Not when you're working on proprietary/confidential/classified information.
>But many/most Spreadsheets can be done in Libreoffice, or code or no/low code alternatives.
Not when you're working on spreadsheets that you need to send to organizations that heavily rely on MS Office.
Not when you're working on proprietary/confidential/classified information.
>But many/most Spreadsheets can be done in Libreoffice, or code or no/low code alternatives.
Not when you're working on spreadsheets that you need to send to organizations that heavily rely on MS Office.
> Not when you're working on proprietary/confidential/classified information.
Why not? The WASM approach the OP is suggesting works entirely locally, the web is simply pushing client code to your browser.
Why not? The WASM approach the OP is suggesting works entirely locally, the web is simply pushing client code to your browser.
> Why not? The WASM approach the OP is suggesting works entirely locally, the web is simply pushing client code to your browser
Because "the web is simply pushing client code to your browser". Untrusted code. Which may violate the confidentiality of you document. I still don't get it why companies which deal with "confidential information" are very happy to put those documents in the cloud. But ... it is their data and they decide what to do with it.
Because "the web is simply pushing client code to your browser". Untrusted code. Which may violate the confidentiality of you document. I still don't get it why companies which deal with "confidential information" are very happy to put those documents in the cloud. But ... it is their data and they decide what to do with it.
I think you're still misunderstanding. The documents don't need to be "in the cloud", the WASM in your browser can operate on them locally.
Is the WASM "untrusted"? Sure, I guess, all code you haven't written yourself is "untrusted" by default. Why would a native application shipped via CD or download be any more "trusted"?
Is the WASM "untrusted"? Sure, I guess, all code you haven't written yourself is "untrusted" by default. Why would a native application shipped via CD or download be any more "trusted"?
You lose most of the advantages of running a software in your browser though.
Can you explain what you're thinking?
[deleted]
OneNote is still a pig in the browser. Every day it has to reload and loses track of all the folders in the notebook so I have to reload them all again.
Oh and it's soooo slow :(
Oh and it's soooo slow :(
Beware what you ask for: Browsers are becoming an OS, and ARE far more abusive with users.
And that browser more likely is owned by oogle...
And that browser more likely is owned by oogle...
Not sure if with "should" you are talking about some kind of ideal world. But in 2022 in the real world, this cannot be done. Online Word is a joke. I would like to use it (because I hate MS Office, so if I could go without having it installed and taking room in my HD and start menu, it would be great) but it's unusable even for my quite basic needs. A sister comment talks about advanced stuff like Excel macros, etc.; but even very basic functionality is not available.
For example: right now, it's impossible to edit a document online with Track Changes without showing all the changes (which makes documents practically unreadable). And you don't even have pages online, documents are shown with a continuous layout where it's difficult to know where pages start and end.
For example: right now, it's impossible to edit a document online with Track Changes without showing all the changes (which makes documents practically unreadable). And you don't even have pages online, documents are shown with a continuous layout where it's difficult to know where pages start and end.
MS Office in browser is like Teams: terrible. Aparently MS decided to rewrite the UI for the browser app and even they acknoledge that is not working (do you want to open in desktop app ?)
I think you’re projecting, and severely unfamiliar with the software.
Add MacOS to the list. The continued crippling of the OS for power users keeps pushing us toward the iOS experience, and it’s killing me.
I can’t see details of my own log files for privacy reasons.
The new Finder design is just awful and accomplished nothing for all the change.
Now I learn I can’t make hardlinks for directories on APFS.
The list goes on.
Yes, I moved away too. So much dumbing down, so many things changed just for the sake of it. And of course no settings to revert it. Eventually it was just too annoying to upgrade.
A lot of it is security hardening but the problem is I have to give all control to Apple. There is no way for me to change anything in the read only OS part without the whole rigmarole of booting into recovery mode and blessing my changes with every update. There should be a way I can sign my own changes. It's the Apple way or the highway. And I'm running into more and more issues when the Apple way is just not good enough for me.
I'm really so happy with having options again with KDE. No more opinionated software for me.
A lot of it is security hardening but the problem is I have to give all control to Apple. There is no way for me to change anything in the read only OS part without the whole rigmarole of booting into recovery mode and blessing my changes with every update. There should be a way I can sign my own changes. It's the Apple way or the highway. And I'm running into more and more issues when the Apple way is just not good enough for me.
I'm really so happy with having options again with KDE. No more opinionated software for me.
They have long understood that security is always an argument to throw into the pot to justify their changes. Boot malware isn't really a widely spread problem in 22 and MS still pushes TPM 2.0. It is probably less about user security than control about users and machines.
This is what can happen when you turn off SIP on the Mac. You can’t trust developers to not be careless and/or malignant.
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/09/no-it...
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/09/no-it...
Poor security design. App installers should definitely be sandboxed, "sip" or not. Preventing the local admin from making any changes due to lack of that, is fixing the wrong problem. Or perhaps not in a granular enough way.
So it’s “poor security design” when a user with root access specifically disables the security and bad things happen?
Yes, useful and destructive/fatal configuration should be separated.
If you have to remove a load-bearing pillar to install a light-switch, the design is poor, to say the least.
If you have to remove a load-bearing pillar to install a light-switch, the design is poor, to say the least.
There are two separate levels
- root access - doesn’t disable SIP
- Disabling SIP requires you to go through many contortions.
People didn’t need to disable SIP to install Chrome. They were doing it for other reasons.
- root access - doesn’t disable SIP
- Disabling SIP requires you to go through many contortions.
People didn’t need to disable SIP to install Chrome. They were doing it for other reasons.
Yes, and those reasons are why I mentioned poor design.
This morning I was reminded, my work Mac has a dozen daemons trying to contact things I don't want, such as icloud, itunes, google, etc. A fraction of these are ostensibly useful, but I had to resort to Little Snitch to block them because the OS is read-only, i.e. insanity.
Even the user-hostile mess of Windows allows me to turn off the worse services... although even that is dwindling.
This morning I was reminded, my work Mac has a dozen daemons trying to contact things I don't want, such as icloud, itunes, google, etc. A fraction of these are ostensibly useful, but I had to resort to Little Snitch to block them because the OS is read-only, i.e. insanity.
Even the user-hostile mess of Windows allows me to turn off the worse services... although even that is dwindling.
The OS is not “read only” if you go through contortions. But if you can write anything to the OS, so can anything you run
You can’t make hardlinks to directories on any other file system either.
Windows 7 is the last version made by Microsoft as a software company. Starting from Windows 8, Microsoft became a cloud company, pushing users all these craps.
I don't mind the UX so much, its pretty good for the most, I'd probably put any gripes I had at the bottom of the list.
But 100% agree that they have got to kill treating windows as a marketing channel to advertise and arbitrarily making edge hard to customize to avoid being pushed the Microsoft narrative. Telemetry I'm not as concerned about, but it should be easy to turn off, and it should ask you before using windows if you want to turn it off. I'd leave it on. But obscuring this stuff just loses peoples trust. Trust is the battleground at the moment, google, facebook, apple, microsoft are really burning their bridges in this area. You don't get that back easily, people are still angry at Microsoft for stuff they did 3 decades ago.
But 100% agree that they have got to kill treating windows as a marketing channel to advertise and arbitrarily making edge hard to customize to avoid being pushed the Microsoft narrative. Telemetry I'm not as concerned about, but it should be easy to turn off, and it should ask you before using windows if you want to turn it off. I'd leave it on. But obscuring this stuff just loses peoples trust. Trust is the battleground at the moment, google, facebook, apple, microsoft are really burning their bridges in this area. You don't get that back easily, people are still angry at Microsoft for stuff they did 3 decades ago.
It definitely suffers from a number of problems in MS, probably mostly due from having a very large organisation with different priorities:
1) UX teams who have to change things to jutify their existence. None of the problems in Windows 10 imho were related to major UX problems, just things that should have been fixed like the stupid search function which can't find "Explorer" when you type in "Explore" 2) UX people who think that the world cares as much as they do about the fact the UI looks a bit "dated" and needs to be refreshed otherwise people will leave! Apple haven't massively changed MacOS and people still use that. 3) Strategic people who are trying to pre-empt or force a different way of interacting with the OS so that things like AI, blockchain, or whatever will work more naturally. 4) Development teams who have decided that the programming model is wrong again and therefore they will make a load more changes. If I was a Product Manager at MS I would be depressed and embarrassed by the number of inconsistencies in the platform. It would be understandable if "windows 10 apps will start to look different" but this is so random, it is annoying. 5) Finance people who can't accept that a paid-for product should have exactly zero adverts and the whole premise is obnoxious and stinks of greed when it's not like MS are struggling to make money. 6) Cloud everything even when those experiences e.g. Office365 are noticeably worse in the cloud. Also, they are charging you the same/more even though they can now manage everything centrally with no deployment costs. 7) The whole security accounts eco system is another disaster. "Log in with MS account", "Is it a work or personal account?". How should I know? It's your account. "Do you want to link all these devices?" "No", "Well we will anyway because we have assumed you want to and we were only asking to pretend it was your choice"
Microsoft, Microsoft, we love you but we need to talk!
1) UX teams who have to change things to jutify their existence. None of the problems in Windows 10 imho were related to major UX problems, just things that should have been fixed like the stupid search function which can't find "Explorer" when you type in "Explore" 2) UX people who think that the world cares as much as they do about the fact the UI looks a bit "dated" and needs to be refreshed otherwise people will leave! Apple haven't massively changed MacOS and people still use that. 3) Strategic people who are trying to pre-empt or force a different way of interacting with the OS so that things like AI, blockchain, or whatever will work more naturally. 4) Development teams who have decided that the programming model is wrong again and therefore they will make a load more changes. If I was a Product Manager at MS I would be depressed and embarrassed by the number of inconsistencies in the platform. It would be understandable if "windows 10 apps will start to look different" but this is so random, it is annoying. 5) Finance people who can't accept that a paid-for product should have exactly zero adverts and the whole premise is obnoxious and stinks of greed when it's not like MS are struggling to make money. 6) Cloud everything even when those experiences e.g. Office365 are noticeably worse in the cloud. Also, they are charging you the same/more even though they can now manage everything centrally with no deployment costs. 7) The whole security accounts eco system is another disaster. "Log in with MS account", "Is it a work or personal account?". How should I know? It's your account. "Do you want to link all these devices?" "No", "Well we will anyway because we have assumed you want to and we were only asking to pretend it was your choice"
Microsoft, Microsoft, we love you but we need to talk!
As a Mac user, I can tell you that people on this side of the fence have been complaining about how Apple is changing the UI to make it “fresh” for the past few years too. Maybe the changes aren’t as drastic as they are in windows, but the same thing happens, unfortunately.
Article is 90% spot-on. Win11 is the first time I do not want to upgrade, because it turns the actual bad parts of Win 10 up to...11!
MS is annihilating the good will they get from me via VSCode, Terminal, VStudio etc...
1) The ads, my god, the ads! Even normal, non-tech, people see this stuff and make a sour face.
2) "Lets finish setting up your PC" : Excuse me sir, its been set up for 4 years. Stop trying to get me to link my phone! I don't want O365 at home! I don't want to switch to Edge (it is not terrible but have made another choice.) I better be careful ant not mis-click or god knows what settings will be changed.
The UI stuff i really don't care a wit about.
Suggestion: Whatever, fine leave this garbage in 'Home' edition but let 'Pro' mean PRO and stop fighting me.
MS is annihilating the good will they get from me via VSCode, Terminal, VStudio etc...
1) The ads, my god, the ads! Even normal, non-tech, people see this stuff and make a sour face.
2) "Lets finish setting up your PC" : Excuse me sir, its been set up for 4 years. Stop trying to get me to link my phone! I don't want O365 at home! I don't want to switch to Edge (it is not terrible but have made another choice.) I better be careful ant not mis-click or god knows what settings will be changed.
The UI stuff i really don't care a wit about.
Suggestion: Whatever, fine leave this garbage in 'Home' edition but let 'Pro' mean PRO and stop fighting me.
This is why I don't think the world makes any sense anymore. How is this a product the worlds 2nd biggest tech conglomerate in the year 2022 thinks is acceptable to be released to the public? How...how are people just accepting this? It's comically bad. Remember when Vista came out and there was this massive hate storm going on because...reasons I guess (yeah, poorly optimized aero on shitty hardware might have sucked but come on...) and now 15 years later THIS is what Windows looks like and ... nobody bats an eye? Hello?! Is anybody still paying attention?
People always talk about google dying. Yeah, how about Microsoft goes dying, how are they even still in business I just don't get it..
People always talk about google dying. Yeah, how about Microsoft goes dying, how are they even still in business I just don't get it..
Going to disagree. I will agree once Apple allows you to ungroup windows of the same application in the dock. Until then, I will use Windows + WSL2 as my core development system.
Sure, Apple has a different workflow. Pro-Apple peeps insist I should 'learn it'. Why? I know the Apple workflow. In my eyes, it is inferior to the one offered by Windows, and KDE on Linux. Everyone has their opinions of course. I respect people who can get stuff done on a Mac, but I'm not one of those people. I grew up on MS-DOS, Linux, Windows 3.1, 95, 98, NT, 2000, etc. I'm left-handed and use alternative inputs.
I also don't care about the UX design. It's a step above Windows 10, that is all that matters.
Both Apple AND Microsoft could learn a ton of stuff from each other. For Apple: Don't dictate user workflows. For Microsoft, consistency is key.
That is all.
Sure, Apple has a different workflow. Pro-Apple peeps insist I should 'learn it'. Why? I know the Apple workflow. In my eyes, it is inferior to the one offered by Windows, and KDE on Linux. Everyone has their opinions of course. I respect people who can get stuff done on a Mac, but I'm not one of those people. I grew up on MS-DOS, Linux, Windows 3.1, 95, 98, NT, 2000, etc. I'm left-handed and use alternative inputs.
I also don't care about the UX design. It's a step above Windows 10, that is all that matters.
Both Apple AND Microsoft could learn a ton of stuff from each other. For Apple: Don't dictate user workflows. For Microsoft, consistency is key.
That is all.
> I will use Windows + WSL2 as my core development system.
Glutton for punishment I see. Seriously, I used WSL2 under Win10 for a year as a (very) poor man's linux for $dayjob. Recently switched to a Mac. I do keep pressing on getting Linux laptops, having run them for work for the last 22+ years ...
WSL2 is garbage. Pure and simple. Even on an 8 core 16 thread 64 GB monster with Nvidia graphics. My view on it is that it is an attempt by MSFT to staunch the flow of developers off their platform. To say "hey, see, we do linux within windows". But then you use it. And get bitten in the behind, repeatably, by the memory compaction bit, even after tuning the overall memory usage of WSL2.
I was able to get a rough linux desktop by using MobaXterm, single root display, and then running Xfce4 (which I had to build myself, as our corporate approved WSL2 distro was/is broken in so ... so many ways). This setup regularly crashed WSL2, and often windows.
When I mentioned this in various fora, windows fans claim that the OS isn't buggy, it must be the hardware. Many BSOD, many hangs, crashes, etc. Couldn't be the OS. Had to be hardware. Or drivers.
Yeah. About that.
Glutton for punishment I see. Seriously, I used WSL2 under Win10 for a year as a (very) poor man's linux for $dayjob. Recently switched to a Mac. I do keep pressing on getting Linux laptops, having run them for work for the last 22+ years ...
WSL2 is garbage. Pure and simple. Even on an 8 core 16 thread 64 GB monster with Nvidia graphics. My view on it is that it is an attempt by MSFT to staunch the flow of developers off their platform. To say "hey, see, we do linux within windows". But then you use it. And get bitten in the behind, repeatably, by the memory compaction bit, even after tuning the overall memory usage of WSL2.
I was able to get a rough linux desktop by using MobaXterm, single root display, and then running Xfce4 (which I had to build myself, as our corporate approved WSL2 distro was/is broken in so ... so many ways). This setup regularly crashed WSL2, and often windows.
When I mentioned this in various fora, windows fans claim that the OS isn't buggy, it must be the hardware. Many BSOD, many hangs, crashes, etc. Couldn't be the OS. Had to be hardware. Or drivers.
Yeah. About that.
> KDE on Linux
Have you tried other desktop environments on linux?
Have you tried other desktop environments on linux?
> allows you to ungroup windows of the same application in the dock
I believe that feature was also recently removed in Windows 11
I believe that feature was also recently removed in Windows 11
Windows 11 is probably the last straw that pushes me to Linux. I'm still using Windows 10 on my Lenovo 470S laptop, but my next one is going to be a Linux one. I still have to keep a Windows gig somewhere to play old school games but that's pretty much all I need.
I'll also try to avoid any job that requires MS Office. Nowadays I have to "Save as" to easily navigate to a local folder, otherwise it takes quite a few steps to move away from the OneDrive default folder. Windows 10 is bad enough, but whatever I heard about 11 seems to be much worse.
MSFT has made the decision to suck money on Cloud, which is fine. I'd like to remind you not to fall into the WSL trap. Use a standalone Linux instead. Once you are getting used to WSL you are probably getting sucked into Windows anyway.
I'll also try to avoid any job that requires MS Office. Nowadays I have to "Save as" to easily navigate to a local folder, otherwise it takes quite a few steps to move away from the OneDrive default folder. Windows 10 is bad enough, but whatever I heard about 11 seems to be much worse.
MSFT has made the decision to suck money on Cloud, which is fine. I'd like to remind you not to fall into the WSL trap. Use a standalone Linux instead. Once you are getting used to WSL you are probably getting sucked into Windows anyway.
Out of curiosity, what games do you play? Would wine and/or a virtual machine suffice?
I actually play a lot of old school games so 1) Dosbox solves a lot of them and 2) Never tried that but maybe Wine solves the rest.
A list of freq games:
1) Baldur's Gate EE Trilogy (And their EE cousins)
2) Quake I (this I'm sure can be played in Linux directly)
3) Diablo 2 (Also think there is a Linux version, they even have a MacOS one)
That's pretty much it, and TBH I don't really play them frequently, maybe a few times a week? So yeah I can probably move into Linux right now, and the only "obstacle" is that I removed most bullshits from Windows 10 Pro and it is now usable, so I'm kinda lazy to change. On the other side, since I want to learn sys programming, that's some incentive to move to Linux...
A list of freq games:
1) Baldur's Gate EE Trilogy (And their EE cousins)
2) Quake I (this I'm sure can be played in Linux directly)
3) Diablo 2 (Also think there is a Linux version, they even have a MacOS one)
That's pretty much it, and TBH I don't really play them frequently, maybe a few times a week? So yeah I can probably move into Linux right now, and the only "obstacle" is that I removed most bullshits from Windows 10 Pro and it is now usable, so I'm kinda lazy to change. On the other side, since I want to learn sys programming, that's some incentive to move to Linux...
Yeah it does take some effort to install linux and get everything running, especially since you've got your Windows setup working well enough without all the bullshit. I guess if it ain't broke, no need to fix it. But as you and goosedragons has pointed out, those games would most likely run well on linux, so if you are ever in a position where you need to reinstall an OS I'd recommend considering linux :)
There's a Linux version of Baldur's Gate EE and all the other Beamdog EE titles including NWN. If you bought them on Steam or GOG you already have the Linux version. Only Icewind Dale 2 is left on Windows but they lost the source code which is why there's no EE version of that.
Diablo 2 doesn't have an official Linux version but there is a source port called OpenDiablo 2. Diablo 2 also runs well under Wine.
Diablo 2 doesn't have an official Linux version but there is a source port called OpenDiablo 2. Diablo 2 also runs well under Wine.
Windows at this point is a ball and chain around even Microsoft's leg. They pivoted to a "cloud and services" company under Nadella because they can't make money off Windows anymore -- except by strip-mining its reputation and ubiquity by turning it into adware/spyware. Truly we live in the worst timeline.
If it pushes people towards better OSes (any *nix IMO) that's a good thing. I was tired of Windows back in the XP days.
Imo, the best OS has the software that I want to run.
I think wine is doing a more important job than MS at allowing windows to die
I think wine is doing a more important job than MS at allowing windows to die
Agree. Wine, Proton and associated libraries are allowing Windows to slowly go the way of the dinosaur. If those projects keep delivering I genuinely believe the year of the Linux desktop will slowly approach.
I read through the nearly 400 comments and no one brought up using the LTSC edition of Windows, which actually gets out of your way or that you don't own the OS when you use a proprietary operating system.
I'm not really sure what to make of this as it seems people prefer to complain as if they were hostages to the whims of others.
I buy my computers with Linux pre-installed on supported machines. All those complaints of Linux "still not working" in 2022 effortlessly glide over the obvious: you're already making it an unfair fight when you adopt an OS to a non-native machine.
If you don't own the OS what's the point of complaining? MacOS and Windows will never have the best interests of the user at heart because that's not where the capital incentives are. It's really as simple as that. Are you going to develop a patch for Windows that makes Windows do as you want? If you do, who at Microsoft is going to take your PR? No one?
This behavior should be blindingly obvious to anyone who thinks for a second where the incentives are. If the incentives are not aligned with yours, it's time to a. consider paying for a volume license for LTSC so you can get the experience you want that you pay for and vote with your dollars or b. use an OS that isn't abusive.
C. moan and complain isn't actually a productive strategy because the money bundled into your OS cost is neglible to the value of your metrics and pushing a subscription to Office that actually makes Microsoft money. People keep smashing this button in the vain hope something will change. Stop and think. Follow the money. Do something about your situation that doesn't enrage you so often.
I'm not really sure what to make of this as it seems people prefer to complain as if they were hostages to the whims of others.
I buy my computers with Linux pre-installed on supported machines. All those complaints of Linux "still not working" in 2022 effortlessly glide over the obvious: you're already making it an unfair fight when you adopt an OS to a non-native machine.
If you don't own the OS what's the point of complaining? MacOS and Windows will never have the best interests of the user at heart because that's not where the capital incentives are. It's really as simple as that. Are you going to develop a patch for Windows that makes Windows do as you want? If you do, who at Microsoft is going to take your PR? No one?
This behavior should be blindingly obvious to anyone who thinks for a second where the incentives are. If the incentives are not aligned with yours, it's time to a. consider paying for a volume license for LTSC so you can get the experience you want that you pay for and vote with your dollars or b. use an OS that isn't abusive.
C. moan and complain isn't actually a productive strategy because the money bundled into your OS cost is neglible to the value of your metrics and pushing a subscription to Office that actually makes Microsoft money. People keep smashing this button in the vain hope something will change. Stop and think. Follow the money. Do something about your situation that doesn't enrage you so often.
> I buy my computers with Linux pre-installed on supported machines. All those complaints of Linux "still not working" in 2022 effortlessly glide over the obvious: you're already making it an unfair fight when you adopt an OS to a non-native machine
I did as well, an Asus 1215B netbook, remember those?
The wlan still has issues to work properly to this day, the graphics card should be able to do OpenGL 4.1/DirectX 11, yet the AMD driver only does OpenGL 3.3.
Good that it was shipped with official Linux support.
I did as well, an Asus 1215B netbook, remember those?
The wlan still has issues to work properly to this day, the graphics card should be able to do OpenGL 4.1/DirectX 11, yet the AMD driver only does OpenGL 3.3.
Good that it was shipped with official Linux support.
I think that's a cherry-picked example of a very old machine. I've had a bug-free experience with the XPS 13 Developer Edition and Purism's line of laptops (I won't comment on the hardware quality of Purism's laptops here because that's a separate issue).
I'm expecting a Framework soon, which touts official support for Fedora so looking forward to yet another bug-free experience there.
I'm expecting a Framework soon, which touts official support for Fedora so looking forward to yet another bug-free experience there.
Why cherry-picked? It is what I got the fortune of owning, same thing can happen to anyone else.
XPS 13 Developer Edition you say?
https://medium.com/@AlexMichelOrg/like-linux-then-dont-buy-d...
XPS 13 Developer Edition you say?
https://medium.com/@AlexMichelOrg/like-linux-then-dont-buy-d...
Yes but it's an extremely old example and not at all indicative of the environment around owning a Linux-shipped laptop today.
Have you owned and used an XPS 13 Developer Edition? Because now it just looks like you're driving around the internet for examples of things that prop up your argument.
I have one I use every day and have for the three years I've owned it. It works great on Ubuntu and Arch Linux. No complaints.
Have you owned and used an XPS 13 Developer Edition? Because now it just looks like you're driving around the internet for examples of things that prop up your argument.
I have one I use every day and have for the three years I've owned it. It works great on Ubuntu and Arch Linux. No complaints.
Not at all, showing that it isn't the walk in the part that gets sold even when buying hardware that is shipping with Linux in the box, and far from what most people get at best buy and friends with other desktop OSes.
It is always the other people's fault that Linux doesn't quite work, but "my system works just perfectly", when in reality keeps being the same hit and miss as always.
It is always the other people's fault that Linux doesn't quite work, but "my system works just perfectly", when in reality keeps being the same hit and miss as always.
No, it's not your fault and that's not what I'm saying. I also think people often fall victim to selective amnesia for what doesn't work well on their Windows or macOS machines. Off-hand I can recount an Xbox app that will fully freeze my system often enough to be annoying and a macOS work machine that would completely freeze when waking up from deep sleep while docked to my monitor.
What I am saying is that most people looking to make comparisons should start by comparing Linux-shipped machines for a baseline standard. I've just told you that everything on my XPS 13 Developer Edition shipped fully working, without any user intervention. Am I the lier and your Medium article the true arbiter? That's up to you to decide. But maybe go out there and give one a shot yourself that isn't ancient, like a Framework (Framework is Linux-supported but not shipped; other alternatives include the Star Labs' line, System76, and Tuxedo) and tell me your experience. You can always install Windows after.
What I am saying is that most people looking to make comparisons should start by comparing Linux-shipped machines for a baseline standard. I've just told you that everything on my XPS 13 Developer Edition shipped fully working, without any user intervention. Am I the lier and your Medium article the true arbiter? That's up to you to decide. But maybe go out there and give one a shot yourself that isn't ancient, like a Framework (Framework is Linux-supported but not shipped; other alternatives include the Star Labs' line, System76, and Tuxedo) and tell me your experience. You can always install Windows after.
Both are right and both are wrong, that is the whole point with Linux Desktop since forever.
My anecdotes are also based on hardware bought with Linux pre-installed on them.
While System76 and Tuxedo are good options for technical users, the best buy audience will never get to them, at very best they will buy an Android or ChromeOS based device.
My anecdotes are also based on hardware bought with Linux pre-installed on them.
While System76 and Tuxedo are good options for technical users, the best buy audience will never get to them, at very best they will buy an Android or ChromeOS based device.
I don't think even the LTSC edition avoids the UX problems discussed here. All the LTSC does is freeze the features Windows had at release and give you security updates. You're still stuck with whatever was there at launch.
Suggesting switching to an entirely different OS to someone who's complaining that their habitual OS no longer behaves as it used to isn't very useful.
>I'm not really sure what to make of this as it seems people prefer to complain as if they were hostages to the whims of others. I buy my computers with Linux pre-installed on supported machines.
You don't understand because you're failing to empathize with what people are saying, because it's not a problem you personally experience. Let's see if this works: suppose you find a shoe manufacturer that makes these really neat shoes that you love. You love them so much that every time they wear out, you buy the next model from that manufacturer. Each model is slightly different from the last, but you like all of them better than the competition. As you've gotten used to them, you've started to develop certain habits with these shoes, such as a technique to tie the laces that makes you do it very fast. But over time, the manufacturer has started to change the way it makes the shoes, such that they're not as comfortable as they used to be, or some of your habits no longer work with them. Now, you don't want to buy from a different manufacturer. At this point your feet are accustomed to the way these shoes fit, and other shoes feel completely different, even if in some ways they're objectively better. You don't want shoes from a different brand, you want the shoes this one used to make, which used to be so much better than this.
TL;DR: Something can be worse than it used to be, and still be better than the alternatives.
Suggesting switching to an entirely different OS to someone who's complaining that their habitual OS no longer behaves as it used to isn't very useful.
>I'm not really sure what to make of this as it seems people prefer to complain as if they were hostages to the whims of others. I buy my computers with Linux pre-installed on supported machines.
You don't understand because you're failing to empathize with what people are saying, because it's not a problem you personally experience. Let's see if this works: suppose you find a shoe manufacturer that makes these really neat shoes that you love. You love them so much that every time they wear out, you buy the next model from that manufacturer. Each model is slightly different from the last, but you like all of them better than the competition. As you've gotten used to them, you've started to develop certain habits with these shoes, such as a technique to tie the laces that makes you do it very fast. But over time, the manufacturer has started to change the way it makes the shoes, such that they're not as comfortable as they used to be, or some of your habits no longer work with them. Now, you don't want to buy from a different manufacturer. At this point your feet are accustomed to the way these shoes fit, and other shoes feel completely different, even if in some ways they're objectively better. You don't want shoes from a different brand, you want the shoes this one used to make, which used to be so much better than this.
TL;DR: Something can be worse than it used to be, and still be better than the alternatives.
> You don't understand because you're failing to empathize with what people are saying, because it's not a problem you personally experience.
To be clear I support my wife's LTSC install and use Windows 11 with WSL and WSLg for work.
> I don't think even the LTSC edition avoids the UX problems discussed here.
I think it does but please highlight which problems it doesnt avoid.
> suppose you find a shoe manufacturer that makes these really neat shoes that you love.
Do they respect me as a user? What are their capital incentives? If not aligned with mine why do I love them? Can I change my purchasing habits so their capital incentives align? If not, I should probably do something less rage-inducing for my own health.
To be clear I support my wife's LTSC install and use Windows 11 with WSL and WSLg for work.
> I don't think even the LTSC edition avoids the UX problems discussed here.
I think it does but please highlight which problems it doesnt avoid.
> suppose you find a shoe manufacturer that makes these really neat shoes that you love.
Do they respect me as a user? What are their capital incentives? If not aligned with mine why do I love them? Can I change my purchasing habits so their capital incentives align? If not, I should probably do something less rage-inducing for my own health.
>I think it does but please highlight which problems it doesnt avoid.
I've never used it, I was guessing based on my understanding of what LTSC is.
>Do they respect me as a user? What are their capital incentives? If not aligned with mine why do I love them?
The thing you love is the shoes, not the shoes' manufacturer.
>Can I change my purchasing habits so their capital incentives align?
Can you, as in, is it possible for you at a reasonable cost? Maybe, maybe not. It depends on the user. "Would you?" is the real question. If we're assuming that your shoes fit you best, why would you switch to a different brand that would fit you worse? Are you implying that the natural tendency of a product is to get worse until it's no better than its competitors?
I've never used it, I was guessing based on my understanding of what LTSC is.
>Do they respect me as a user? What are their capital incentives? If not aligned with mine why do I love them?
The thing you love is the shoes, not the shoes' manufacturer.
>Can I change my purchasing habits so their capital incentives align?
Can you, as in, is it possible for you at a reasonable cost? Maybe, maybe not. It depends on the user. "Would you?" is the real question. If we're assuming that your shoes fit you best, why would you switch to a different brand that would fit you worse? Are you implying that the natural tendency of a product is to get worse until it's no better than its competitors?
> Are you implying that the natural tendency of a product is to get worse until it's no better than its competitors?
Yes! And I'll get a little philosophical here but if we really take an eagle's eye view on the source of this problem it's that capitalism insists on growth to keep the machine of prosperity running. On a microcosmic scale you can see this at work inside companies, which must pursue new growth streams as existing markets become saturated. With single digit growth in OS licenses, Microsoft pursues cloud/Office/SaaS to continue offering investors big returns. This leads to the inevitable downward spiral of the quality of former core products and desperate moves to monetize essentially a delivery vehicle to sell SaaS products.
Stepping outside Microsoft for a moment and looking at Apple we can already see this emergent behavior in Apple's pivot to services and the marketing of those services inside its SaaS/subscription delivery vehicles, such as iCloud+, Apple TV, Arcade etc.
Returning to Microsoft, this is why we see Windows licenses now being sold basically for free and Microsoft removing virtually all burdens to a user running an unlicensed OS. It no longer matters to their new core business.
Given this duopoly of OSes with a new service fetish it behooves a user of these OSes to either pay so much money to Microsoft for respectful OS editions they can't help but notice (volume licensing LTSC) or explore alternatives that aren't beholden to these vicious imperatives.
Yes! And I'll get a little philosophical here but if we really take an eagle's eye view on the source of this problem it's that capitalism insists on growth to keep the machine of prosperity running. On a microcosmic scale you can see this at work inside companies, which must pursue new growth streams as existing markets become saturated. With single digit growth in OS licenses, Microsoft pursues cloud/Office/SaaS to continue offering investors big returns. This leads to the inevitable downward spiral of the quality of former core products and desperate moves to monetize essentially a delivery vehicle to sell SaaS products.
Stepping outside Microsoft for a moment and looking at Apple we can already see this emergent behavior in Apple's pivot to services and the marketing of those services inside its SaaS/subscription delivery vehicles, such as iCloud+, Apple TV, Arcade etc.
Returning to Microsoft, this is why we see Windows licenses now being sold basically for free and Microsoft removing virtually all burdens to a user running an unlicensed OS. It no longer matters to their new core business.
Given this duopoly of OSes with a new service fetish it behooves a user of these OSes to either pay so much money to Microsoft for respectful OS editions they can't help but notice (volume licensing LTSC) or explore alternatives that aren't beholden to these vicious imperatives.
Fair enough. I don't think capitalism is the source of the problem, though, but public trading of company shares. And more specifically, the concept of fiduciary responsibility. I honestly think that's poison in how it misaligns incentives and that it's socially a net negative, if we assume that the societal purpose of a company is primarily to provide services to its customers.
I think your take on the root cause is more nuanced and better than my own. That said, I don't know how we change an industry entrenched in this poison field.
> please highlight which problems it doesnt avoid
>> UX Consistency
Check
>> Widgets & MSN
Check
>> Unnecessary Cosmetic Changes
If we're strictly talking about OP's grievances, current LTSC doesn't have them but next LTSC based on Windows 11 will.
>> Customization Lock-In
Same as above
>> Telemetry & Microsoft Account
LTSC provides one extra level of telemetry setting but even set to that level it's still chock full of telemetry.
>> UX Consistency
Check
>> Widgets & MSN
Check
>> Unnecessary Cosmetic Changes
If we're strictly talking about OP's grievances, current LTSC doesn't have them but next LTSC based on Windows 11 will.
>> Customization Lock-In
Same as above
>> Telemetry & Microsoft Account
LTSC provides one extra level of telemetry setting but even set to that level it's still chock full of telemetry.
> consider paying for a volume license for LTSC
And if I just want a single Windows machine and not 5?
And if I just want a single Windows machine and not 5?
Unfortunately, this is the price you pay to let Microsoft know the OS you want respects you as a user.
Windows knows full well LTSC is pain free but also less profitable. Sales will act really difficult, to sell it to a business unless they complain they are doing something mission critical. Also as far as I know it's difficult to buy LTSC as a private costumer.
Anyone can buy a volume license. You'll need to pay 200ish dollars or so but for an OS you use every day and provided the 400 comments here are indicative of a real desire to use a non-abusive edition of Windows, it's a bargain!
To buy one you'll need to go through a Microsoft Partner as detailed here: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/licensing/how-to-buy/how-to-...
Searching the web for "buy ltsc license" is also fruitful.
To buy one you'll need to go through a Microsoft Partner as detailed here: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/licensing/how-to-buy/how-to-...
Searching the web for "buy ltsc license" is also fruitful.
Talking about wonderful backwards compatibility, and then talking inconsistent UI design is kinda ironic though. Because all these older themed windows are using the exact feature you told you love in the opening paragraphs of the piece: "Backwards compatibility".
So, why Microsoft shouldn't use the exact feature they have built so painstakingly? Also, forcing these older UI toolkits to render the same as the latest iteration would break many many things.
We're talking about an OS which includes almost complete copies of its older versions and some patched installations of InstallShield to begin with.
I have no words for ads though. This is really very bad.
So, why Microsoft shouldn't use the exact feature they have built so painstakingly? Also, forcing these older UI toolkits to render the same as the latest iteration would break many many things.
We're talking about an OS which includes almost complete copies of its older versions and some patched installations of InstallShield to begin with.
I have no words for ads though. This is really very bad.
It's one thing to keep old the old API for backwards compatibility it's another to lack a new API for the new UI.
>The API to render a Windows 11 native context menu does not exist.
>The API to render a Windows 11 native context menu does not exist.
My comment was not about that. That lack of API situation is unacceptable from my point of view, but I'm not terribly surprised about that when we're talking about Microsoft.
My comment was about the paragraph starting with:
There’s a meme about how there are at least ten different design conventions in Windows 11 and it’s very much “in your face” once you start using Windows 11 on the daily.
My comment was about the paragraph starting with:
There’s a meme about how there are at least ten different design conventions in Windows 11 and it’s very much “in your face” once you start using Windows 11 on the daily.
A lot of the examples of inconsistent UI in the article are things built into Windows. For example the "Windows security center" vs. "Eject disk" context menus. I think it's fine for third-party apps to have differences in UI based on their vintage, but why are Microsoft's own apps and utilities all over the map? Microsoft has also done a really bad job of evolving existing UI frameworks. Instead they seem to replace the whole thing every few years with something new and shiny which leads to even more inconsistency. The article lists all of these:
> There is Windows Forms, WPF, MAUI, UWP, WTL, WinUI, MFC, and I am sure others that I am missing.
> There is Windows Forms, WPF, MAUI, UWP, WTL, WinUI, MFC, and I am sure others that I am missing.
As a Windows user starting with Windows 3.1 and ending with 7/10 (as a support person for my family), I'm well aware how this inconsistency piled year over year.
During my regular Windows user years, I used to follow Redmond's side closely too. From my understanding, there are some factors contributing to current state.
The leading reason is "backwards compatibility at all costs", including but not limited to how programs behave. It's known that until Windows clamped down on security hard, older Windows programs used whatever functions they can find from .dlls, and also used "bugs" to achieve what they want. So, any changes which might affect how an older program look or feel are strongly frowned upon.
Windows is a gigantic codebase, and until semi-recently, Windows team didn't know what depended on what (the biggest revelation was printing support needed GDI, which brought all UI toolkit in, hence building a CLI only Windows was impossible). So, I'm guessing they're not entirely sure which parts of these applications are used by 3rd party applications. So they leave in, as-is, so nothing breaks.
The latest layer is the Microsoft's culture of "no polish, just new features" mentality. There's a very revealing writing by someone in Microsoft NT kernel team who said that "We can optimize something, but the change will be reverted, and you'll be berated because new features are much important than improving existing others, because new features are which make headlines and bring more revenue in".
Personally, I don't think that Windows team cares much about UI consistency and some other excellence. It's just a cash-cow and enabler of other applications, that's all, and while I'm not a Windows user, I find it sad.
During my regular Windows user years, I used to follow Redmond's side closely too. From my understanding, there are some factors contributing to current state.
The leading reason is "backwards compatibility at all costs", including but not limited to how programs behave. It's known that until Windows clamped down on security hard, older Windows programs used whatever functions they can find from .dlls, and also used "bugs" to achieve what they want. So, any changes which might affect how an older program look or feel are strongly frowned upon.
Windows is a gigantic codebase, and until semi-recently, Windows team didn't know what depended on what (the biggest revelation was printing support needed GDI, which brought all UI toolkit in, hence building a CLI only Windows was impossible). So, I'm guessing they're not entirely sure which parts of these applications are used by 3rd party applications. So they leave in, as-is, so nothing breaks.
The latest layer is the Microsoft's culture of "no polish, just new features" mentality. There's a very revealing writing by someone in Microsoft NT kernel team who said that "We can optimize something, but the change will be reverted, and you'll be berated because new features are much important than improving existing others, because new features are which make headlines and bring more revenue in".
Personally, I don't think that Windows team cares much about UI consistency and some other excellence. It's just a cash-cow and enabler of other applications, that's all, and while I'm not a Windows user, I find it sad.
No, this is a non-problem. If Microsoft stuck with Win32, just like how Apple stuck with Cocoa, this wouldn't be an issue.
It's a problem according to the author. Both the lack of an official API for the latest iteration of context menus and existence of older UI artifacts are presented as "paper cuts" and disorienting.
I'm not stating whether it's a problem or not, just iterating/expanding on what the author have said.
I'm not stating whether it's a problem or not, just iterating/expanding on what the author have said.
I’m not a Windows user and I know this is not a popular opinion, but… I really wish Windows 8 had been better received. Sure it was a huge break from Win<8. But it was a bold, thoughtful and thorough one, with a lot of potential. Refining Metro but ultimately sticking to its core ideas would almost certainly have produced a better Windows experience overall than the basically incoherent changes which followed.
I'm convinced Windows 8 is a better tablet OS than 10. I don't know if it's a better desktop OS.
It wasn’t a better desktop OS, but it was a just as good desktop OS with potential to become a better one.
What I don't understand is why they decided to shoehorn Windows onto their tablets instead of the Windows Phone OS. Windows phone was well received, it would have made far more sense. Apple could see that wasn't going to work, why couldn't Microsoft.
Well, you're right about one thing,
> I know this is not a popular opinion
> I know this is not a popular opinion
I also wish the Zune and Windows Phone had succeeded. I’m not very good at gambling either. It’s good to recognize one’s strengths or lack thereof :)
Bought a high-end laptop recently and really wanted to give Windows 11 a try [after being a Linux user for about 7 years]. While the WSL and WSLg aspects of it along with development-related features have improved considerably, the base of the system as a whole was still the same mess.
So much telemetry stuff running in the background, so many unnecessary updates kicking in, heavy CPU and memory usage and the general perceived slowness of the OS have all immediately pushed me back to Linux. There's no bloat, the difference in performance is night and day, and I have to never worry about any privacy-related stuff.
Long live Linux Desktop.
So much telemetry stuff running in the background, so many unnecessary updates kicking in, heavy CPU and memory usage and the general perceived slowness of the OS have all immediately pushed me back to Linux. There's no bloat, the difference in performance is night and day, and I have to never worry about any privacy-related stuff.
Long live Linux Desktop.
> a high-end laptop recently
Oh, cool, a recent high-end laptop that works well with linux. Could you share the model?
Oh, cool, a recent high-end laptop that works well with linux. Could you share the model?
Dell G15 Ryzen Edition. From my experience all Dells and Lenovos are great with Linux compatibility.
It was a bit odd to have a section criticizing UI inconsistencies followed by a section criticizing Microsoft for fixing those UI inconsistencies in Notepad and Task Manager.
As I mentioned in the blog post - both Notepad and Task Manager aren't that inconsistent with the rest of the OS. Notepad is just a giant text box. Task Manager is a compact, tabbed view (tabs didn't go anywhere in the latest version of Windows) that now became Fluent-ified and in the process now looks very wasteful of vertical space.
Above all, I think the problem is in priorities - Notepad and Task Manager _should_ be consistent with the OS. But when so much focus is assigned to those instead of the core pieces of the OS, it's fair to start raising some questions.
Above all, I think the problem is in priorities - Notepad and Task Manager _should_ be consistent with the OS. But when so much focus is assigned to those instead of the core pieces of the OS, it's fair to start raising some questions.
> when so much focus is assigned to those instead of the core pieces of the OS
Do you have any evidence that Notepad and Task Manager required "so much focus"?
The new Notepad's about as bare-bones as the old Notepad, it just happens to use XAML Islands for the UI. It would be surprising if it significantly detracted from other efforts.
Do you have any evidence that Notepad and Task Manager required "so much focus"?
The new Notepad's about as bare-bones as the old Notepad, it just happens to use XAML Islands for the UI. It would be surprising if it significantly detracted from other efforts.
It's all about contrast to everything else. If my house roof is leaking and instead of fixing that I put a limited amount of resources I have into repainting my office and installing a fancy new European faucet, and then go and tell everyone about it - that says a lot about my priorities.
Yes, I am fully aware of the fact that different teams do different things at a big company, but funnily enough when asked about high-priority issues the answer is almost universally "We don't have enough time and/or developers to tackle this right now." But there is magically time for MSN toolbars and Notepad tweaks.
Yes, I am fully aware of the fact that different teams do different things at a big company, but funnily enough when asked about high-priority issues the answer is almost universally "We don't have enough time and/or developers to tackle this right now." But there is magically time for MSN toolbars and Notepad tweaks.
OK, no evidence. Got it.
One of the most annoying things I've had to experience is Onedrive moving your documents folder inside onedrive. I've done some tech support in a music production forum and you wouldn't believe how many problems it'll cause.
Does anyone have any insight into how much benefit MSFT actually gets from these decisions? I understand that the intent is to 'make line go up', but as a simpler user I can't really imagine how telemetry and shilling OneDrive actually leads to meaningful revenue growth. On the other hand, people have been loudly complaining about this since the Windows 7 days, and I imagine that there must be some reason they're doubling down on such an unpopular strategy.
> I can't really imagine how telemetry and shilling OneDrive actually leads to meaningful revenue growth.
Microsoft’s ad revenue is $10B (1). Allowing advertisers to send ads based on user profiles is a major feature of digital advertising. Collecting telemetry data improves the user profiling.
These types of changes have a direct positive impact on one of Microsoft’s fastest growing revenue stream. This will lead to meaningful revenue growth.
(1) https://digiday.com/media/microsofts-ad-revenue-hit-10b-and-...
Microsoft’s ad revenue is $10B (1). Allowing advertisers to send ads based on user profiles is a major feature of digital advertising. Collecting telemetry data improves the user profiling.
These types of changes have a direct positive impact on one of Microsoft’s fastest growing revenue stream. This will lead to meaningful revenue growth.
(1) https://digiday.com/media/microsofts-ad-revenue-hit-10b-and-...
Former MSFT here. People tend to think of Microsoft as one unified company with a unified strategy.
That is not the case, its best thought of as a batch of little companies that band together to create a product. These companies may compete for resources and attention internally and so each one will optimize for their own benefit.
Ads in Edge? That's probably a decision made by some Principal Program Manager with director support on the browser team. The metrics that get tracked for that event are likely how many people click through the ad, rather than the over all impact to the OS.
The OS Core team doesn't have the influence to say no, or stop the browser from showing those ads. I recall internally when I (a paying customer for O365) got a toast (that is what a popup ad is called internally) for O365 and I decided to raise an issue.
Some PM II (mid-level PM was running the campaign, and they were showing metrics that more people signed up for O365 as a result of the campaign, so per them it was good. I was not in that organization and since that director had OKRs that required signups, he told me to go away.
The core OS stripped down has none of these things, but at integrated build, lots of stuff gets put in, and when one team says no to something, often another one will say yes. A good example is that Office has its own update infrastructure and tooling outside of Windows Update. Why? Office wanted to deliver updates on weekly basis and Windows Update said no as that would be too impacting for users, so Office simply said ok and built their own.
These issues rarely if ever get surfaced to an executive, as by the time the metrics get up to a CVP generally they are showing broader trends, like adoption, or game breaking bugs, or as you note, the line going up. Executives do not get these problems (such as inconsistent UI) to them. Those things rarely rise above a Group PM or Engineering Manager level, and those people often do not care about the complaint as for that metric helps them or is part of their strategy.
Windows, the product team cannot do anything about it due to political problems internally at MS and that is not the engineering team behind Window's fault. We (as that was a team I was on) hated when a product team would do something obnoxious and if we could catch it prior to release would often bluntly complain. More often than not we would get told that we were the platform and to stay out of the other teams business.
Anyways, there isn't some mass company dark pattern strategy or other conspiracy, just a bunch of little factions that are all optimizing for their own interests. Office is probably the worst offender of the batch (Skype, Teams, OneDrive) and Windows can do little about it.
That is not the case, its best thought of as a batch of little companies that band together to create a product. These companies may compete for resources and attention internally and so each one will optimize for their own benefit.
Ads in Edge? That's probably a decision made by some Principal Program Manager with director support on the browser team. The metrics that get tracked for that event are likely how many people click through the ad, rather than the over all impact to the OS.
The OS Core team doesn't have the influence to say no, or stop the browser from showing those ads. I recall internally when I (a paying customer for O365) got a toast (that is what a popup ad is called internally) for O365 and I decided to raise an issue.
Some PM II (mid-level PM was running the campaign, and they were showing metrics that more people signed up for O365 as a result of the campaign, so per them it was good. I was not in that organization and since that director had OKRs that required signups, he told me to go away.
The core OS stripped down has none of these things, but at integrated build, lots of stuff gets put in, and when one team says no to something, often another one will say yes. A good example is that Office has its own update infrastructure and tooling outside of Windows Update. Why? Office wanted to deliver updates on weekly basis and Windows Update said no as that would be too impacting for users, so Office simply said ok and built their own.
These issues rarely if ever get surfaced to an executive, as by the time the metrics get up to a CVP generally they are showing broader trends, like adoption, or game breaking bugs, or as you note, the line going up. Executives do not get these problems (such as inconsistent UI) to them. Those things rarely rise above a Group PM or Engineering Manager level, and those people often do not care about the complaint as for that metric helps them or is part of their strategy.
Windows, the product team cannot do anything about it due to political problems internally at MS and that is not the engineering team behind Window's fault. We (as that was a team I was on) hated when a product team would do something obnoxious and if we could catch it prior to release would often bluntly complain. More often than not we would get told that we were the platform and to stay out of the other teams business.
Anyways, there isn't some mass company dark pattern strategy or other conspiracy, just a bunch of little factions that are all optimizing for their own interests. Office is probably the worst offender of the batch (Skype, Teams, OneDrive) and Windows can do little about it.
I'd argue that once a movement has been installed it's very difficult to rule it out unless someone on the board can PROVE that it hurts revenue. This kind of decision (UI designers overriding anyone else) probably comes from a middle manager who has top support, the exact reason why it is impossible to un-stuck such decisions. Think Apple, you have to get X out before you can unstuck his/her decisions. That's politics.
Windows 11 looks great in screenshots, but when I actually try to use it, it was terrible.
I tried to move a file in Explorer using the context menu and I couldn't confidently tell Cut/Copy/Rename icons apart because they are just abstract lines that represents the file operation.
I started looking at ways to get the original Context Menu back, and then I just decided to rollback to Windows 10.
I tried to move a file in Explorer using the context menu and I couldn't confidently tell Cut/Copy/Rename icons apart because they are just abstract lines that represents the file operation.
I started looking at ways to get the original Context Menu back, and then I just decided to rollback to Windows 10.
I'm pretty sure Windows got their priorities straight: telemetry, advertisement are the priority and they're executing their strategy very well.
Your priority as a user are different, but, sorry to say, your voice doesn't count. The year-end revenue and KPI is what counts, because you and 99% of other companies will still be buying and using PCs with Windows preinstalled and paying Microsoft for licences. You say so yourself, you're disappointed with the direction Windows is taking, but you still use it [for very legitimate reasons].
Why should Microsoft sell Windows for $199, when they can earn $199 + $x/month/user from ads and create more value for its shareholders?
Your priority as a user are different, but, sorry to say, your voice doesn't count. The year-end revenue and KPI is what counts, because you and 99% of other companies will still be buying and using PCs with Windows preinstalled and paying Microsoft for licences. You say so yourself, you're disappointed with the direction Windows is taking, but you still use it [for very legitimate reasons].
Why should Microsoft sell Windows for $199, when they can earn $199 + $x/month/user from ads and create more value for its shareholders?
I would pay extra to buy a "Signature Edition" (kind of like they had with PCs) of Windows that has none of the ads and whatever other "value-add" pieces are integrated in it. One would say - I want LTSC accessible for customers like myself, without the kneecapped ability to run latest Windows software.
They make more off you if you have a regular licence and they can sell your data. You wanting to pay extra not to be spied upon is irrelevant, you have no choice in the matter.
Very simply, the money lost because some people have left Windows for greener pastures is being offset by the increased revenue.
Very simply, the money lost because some people have left Windows for greener pastures is being offset by the increased revenue.
There must be some amount of money that someone could pay to make it worth it to Microsoft to not show ads or sell data. The problem is, I doubt many people would actually pay that amount.
There was an interesting interview on the Windows Weekly podcast with Chris Capossela (CMO of consumer at Microsoft) a little ways back I believe where the hosts asked Chris why there is no ability to do just this - I believe the answer was that Microsoft views these features as valuable to the user, so why would they think that a user would want to turn them off?
I wonder, do marketing types actually believe that kind of nonsense? Could it actually be true for them, personally, that they feel they get some benefit from intrusive communication? That would be such a different experience of the world that it's difficult to wrap my head around.
And yet... I was once griping about one or another of the many tricky ways excessively-clever web designers abuse javascript to impose their concept of a "user experience" on me when I would deeply prefer they simply left well enough alone, and my listener replied - "but what if I want the experience they're offering"? - Well, that thought had never occurred to me.
And yet... I was once griping about one or another of the many tricky ways excessively-clever web designers abuse javascript to impose their concept of a "user experience" on me when I would deeply prefer they simply left well enough alone, and my listener replied - "but what if I want the experience they're offering"? - Well, that thought had never occurred to me.
It's very difficult to get meaningful action out of people whose paycheck might depend on not acting.
No, they do not. The ones who are making choices about it anyway. They just realise they can manipulate the masses.
I don't disagree with this. It's the unfortunate reality that I hope changes, but that change needs to come from _a lot_ of dissatisfied customers.
I think there was a Pro for Workstations SKU that installed with a lot less candy crush in the start menu when I tried it.
There's that, and there's also the limited access Enterprise SKU. Last I checked, the Pro versions will now also require[1] a Microsoft account.
[1]: https://www.theverge.com/2022/2/18/22940517/windows-11-pro-r...
[1]: https://www.theverge.com/2022/2/18/22940517/windows-11-pro-r...
.. because the minute your monopoly power crumbles, you will be met with resentment and abandonment, including by the "investors" who were with you minutes ago.. the ecosystem has dealt with hostile insider moves, high profile technology theft, and constant attack vectors already.. more in store here
[deleted]
Some of the anti-user patterns aren't even pioneered by Microsoft, they simply fall in the anti-user direction many big companies are pushing.
Ads in apps? Pioneered in Android. Tricking the user to log in using Microsoft account? You can't make much use of an Android phone unless you sign in with your google account. Also, Apple requests having an Apple Id.
I wonder what if someone at Apple, Google, Microsoft decides at some point that you shouldn't be able to use your own device, bought with your own money? They can disable your account at one push of a button. Or maybe a state agency decides you are one of the bad guys.
Ads in apps? Pioneered in Android. Tricking the user to log in using Microsoft account? You can't make much use of an Android phone unless you sign in with your google account. Also, Apple requests having an Apple Id.
I wonder what if someone at Apple, Google, Microsoft decides at some point that you shouldn't be able to use your own device, bought with your own money? They can disable your account at one push of a button. Or maybe a state agency decides you are one of the bad guys.
These companies all copy each other's bad practices, it's no surprise there, if one can get away with it the rest will follow.
> You can't make much use of an Android phone unless you sign in with your google account.
This depends on the phone. Samsung phones aren’t terribly bad, I’ve been using one without google account for a few months now. For instance, the built-in web browser has a command like “setup an ad blocker”.
This depends on the phone. Samsung phones aren’t terribly bad, I’ve been using one without google account for a few months now. For instance, the built-in web browser has a command like “setup an ad blocker”.
Thank you. This is so true and annoying. Microsoft should treat their UI like their APIs and not break it with every major release. Changing a submenu is alright, changing how flat it is, is fine. But don't release a new settings app with every update. Microsoft settings is like Google chat apps as soon as you get used to it they throw it in the trash and release a new one to works completely differently.
I bought a MacBook recently after switching from Mac OS X to Windows and Linux 13 years ago. After booting for the first time I opened the settings app do do some changes and was expecting to google a lot and I didn't have to. The settings still have the same layout and it generally worked the same as on macOS 10.4. The same was true for the preinstalled system apps. They were in the same place, had the same names and generally functioned the same expect some UI changes. There are additions to the UI that replaced some old features like multiple desktops, the control center and the widgets but they didn't any of my usage patterns and it was pretty easy to integrate them into my regular workflow.
If you look at it from a normal users POV Apple has much better backwards compatibility than Microsoft, if my software is being maintained by a dev and I'm willing to update to the newer versions. If I want to keep using a program that was released 20 years ago not so much, but Microsoft has been breaking a lot of these programs in the last 5 years as well.
I bought a MacBook recently after switching from Mac OS X to Windows and Linux 13 years ago. After booting for the first time I opened the settings app do do some changes and was expecting to google a lot and I didn't have to. The settings still have the same layout and it generally worked the same as on macOS 10.4. The same was true for the preinstalled system apps. They were in the same place, had the same names and generally functioned the same expect some UI changes. There are additions to the UI that replaced some old features like multiple desktops, the control center and the widgets but they didn't any of my usage patterns and it was pretty easy to integrate them into my regular workflow.
If you look at it from a normal users POV Apple has much better backwards compatibility than Microsoft, if my software is being maintained by a dev and I'm willing to update to the newer versions. If I want to keep using a program that was released 20 years ago not so much, but Microsoft has been breaking a lot of these programs in the last 5 years as well.
Hot Take that no doubt will meet a lot of doubt:
I would make a prediction that Window's next OS, is going to be semi-Linux based.
Imagine Windows doing to their OS the way they did with their browser, forking opensource code and rebranding it as their own. I could see them deciding to take some flavor of Linux (or maybe even something esoteric like Google's Fuchsia), and just slapping on their bloat & spyware.
I don't think this would damage Microsoft's marketshare as much as some people think. Sure, they no longer have "their own codebase", but I don't see the benefit in that. Hell, they could go lower & build off the actual Linux kernel and then build there own distro off of that. That way they can still enforce certain structures at a low level.
I would deeply enjoy this, although I would not use it (sticking with Linux). But imagine Microsoft embracing & advocating for AppImages/Flatpaks/Snap packages, Vulken, WINE/Steam Proton, etc. Imagine building for only 2 platforms to get your app running on (nearly) all devices. Imagine having Linux on the desktop get the same treatment it got with Linux on mobile.
Again, I understand this sounds like I'm predicting pigs will fly, or it'll rain cats & dogs, or the government will be efficient, but I'm serious, I can see this happening. Maybe not soon, but the next decade could be very interesting to see how this fabled "new" Microsoft moves & behaves.
Imagine Windows doing to their OS the way they did with their browser, forking opensource code and rebranding it as their own. I could see them deciding to take some flavor of Linux (or maybe even something esoteric like Google's Fuchsia), and just slapping on their bloat & spyware.
I don't think this would damage Microsoft's marketshare as much as some people think. Sure, they no longer have "their own codebase", but I don't see the benefit in that. Hell, they could go lower & build off the actual Linux kernel and then build there own distro off of that. That way they can still enforce certain structures at a low level.
I would deeply enjoy this, although I would not use it (sticking with Linux). But imagine Microsoft embracing & advocating for AppImages/Flatpaks/Snap packages, Vulken, WINE/Steam Proton, etc. Imagine building for only 2 platforms to get your app running on (nearly) all devices. Imagine having Linux on the desktop get the same treatment it got with Linux on mobile.
Again, I understand this sounds like I'm predicting pigs will fly, or it'll rain cats & dogs, or the government will be efficient, but I'm serious, I can see this happening. Maybe not soon, but the next decade could be very interesting to see how this fabled "new" Microsoft moves & behaves.
> Hot Take that no doubt will meet a lot of doubt
That's neither a hot take nor a new one. People have been predicting it since the 1900s. If anything, more people believe it than doubt it.
But sadly, after making these predictions, and being proven wrong, year after year, no one sits down and asks why it didn't happen.
But I did. So let me try to explain.
The short version is: "The Linux kernel licensing model is hostile to the Windows hardware ecosystem".
What does that mean? Well, the Linux kernel licensing model is GPLv2. But it's more than that. It's actually "GPLv2 plus the interpretation of the kernel developers". And the kernel developers have tried to enforce their interpretation using technical means. Specifically, if you want to compile closed-source drivers into the MAINLINE Linux kernel, they make it difficult for you. Only one company fights this difficulty. That company is Nvidia. How hard does Nividia have it? Nvidia has to ship their kernel driver as two parts. A GPL-compatible stub (which is compiled into the kernel), and a closed-source blob (which connects to this stub).
"That's not so bad" you say. Well there's more. The GPL stub only works for one kernel version. You know, 5.17, 5.18, etc. When the user updates their kernel (which they MUST do in order to get security fixes!), the GPL stub may stop working. Why is that? Because while Linus Torvalds mandates a stable _userland_ API, the internals of the kernel, including drivers and other kernel modules, changes ALL THE TIME. Seriously, stuff is changed and refactored all the time. So, Nvidia must release a new driver each time the kernel updates. That's more work. That means more employees for every hardware vendor. That means every hardware vendor would need to push those costs on to consumers or accept lower profits. That means every hardware vendor would scream bloody murder at Microsoft to not do this.
Not so bad now? But there's more. How do you install the new driver version? When you update the kernel, hopefully your distro is smart enough to grab the new version of the nvidia driver and install it for you also. If that somehow gets out of step, you get a kernel panic. That's an ugly error for Sam Sixpack or Deb McBusinesshuman to deal with. They're certainly going to call their IT department, who is going to call Microsoft and complain. But that's not so bad...
But there's more. Antivirus. Once Linux is underlying the most popular OS in the world, it'll need antivirus. But, antivirus companies will need to release a new kernel module each time there's a new Linux kernel update. Or, they can rely on eBPF. Maybe. eBPF is still untested for that purpose.
"So why can't hardware vendors just release their drivers as GPLv2 and upstream them into the kernel?" Well, that's a possible solution. But companies are generally averse to giving their code away for free, and it's not the default, so the legal departments will have to check it over, and MBA types will have to grok the idea of open-source. Many will push back on Microsoft and ask them to not do this.
"So why can't Microsoft just fork Linux and remove all of the restrictions, give it a stable closed-source driver API and/or make it capable of running Windows 11 drivers natively, and just give the bird to upstream/Torvalds?" Yeah that's very possible. But at that point, is it really using "Linux" or a kernel based on Linux? Why wouldn't they just use BSD instead and avoid 90% of this trouble?
That's neither a hot take nor a new one. People have been predicting it since the 1900s. If anything, more people believe it than doubt it.
But sadly, after making these predictions, and being proven wrong, year after year, no one sits down and asks why it didn't happen.
But I did. So let me try to explain.
The short version is: "The Linux kernel licensing model is hostile to the Windows hardware ecosystem".
What does that mean? Well, the Linux kernel licensing model is GPLv2. But it's more than that. It's actually "GPLv2 plus the interpretation of the kernel developers". And the kernel developers have tried to enforce their interpretation using technical means. Specifically, if you want to compile closed-source drivers into the MAINLINE Linux kernel, they make it difficult for you. Only one company fights this difficulty. That company is Nvidia. How hard does Nividia have it? Nvidia has to ship their kernel driver as two parts. A GPL-compatible stub (which is compiled into the kernel), and a closed-source blob (which connects to this stub).
"That's not so bad" you say. Well there's more. The GPL stub only works for one kernel version. You know, 5.17, 5.18, etc. When the user updates their kernel (which they MUST do in order to get security fixes!), the GPL stub may stop working. Why is that? Because while Linus Torvalds mandates a stable _userland_ API, the internals of the kernel, including drivers and other kernel modules, changes ALL THE TIME. Seriously, stuff is changed and refactored all the time. So, Nvidia must release a new driver each time the kernel updates. That's more work. That means more employees for every hardware vendor. That means every hardware vendor would need to push those costs on to consumers or accept lower profits. That means every hardware vendor would scream bloody murder at Microsoft to not do this.
Not so bad now? But there's more. How do you install the new driver version? When you update the kernel, hopefully your distro is smart enough to grab the new version of the nvidia driver and install it for you also. If that somehow gets out of step, you get a kernel panic. That's an ugly error for Sam Sixpack or Deb McBusinesshuman to deal with. They're certainly going to call their IT department, who is going to call Microsoft and complain. But that's not so bad...
But there's more. Antivirus. Once Linux is underlying the most popular OS in the world, it'll need antivirus. But, antivirus companies will need to release a new kernel module each time there's a new Linux kernel update. Or, they can rely on eBPF. Maybe. eBPF is still untested for that purpose.
"So why can't hardware vendors just release their drivers as GPLv2 and upstream them into the kernel?" Well, that's a possible solution. But companies are generally averse to giving their code away for free, and it's not the default, so the legal departments will have to check it over, and MBA types will have to grok the idea of open-source. Many will push back on Microsoft and ask them to not do this.
"So why can't Microsoft just fork Linux and remove all of the restrictions, give it a stable closed-source driver API and/or make it capable of running Windows 11 drivers natively, and just give the bird to upstream/Torvalds?" Yeah that's very possible. But at that point, is it really using "Linux" or a kernel based on Linux? Why wouldn't they just use BSD instead and avoid 90% of this trouble?
I'm not familiar with how Google does it with Android & Chromebooks, do you have a similar level of understanding there? Your explanation was very good, thank you for that information. I'm now wondering if Google is just small enough (with their OS operations) that they don't face these issues, or if they do something different.
As a lifelong Windows user (since 3.11), Microsoft has always sucked at Windows. It started as a single user, non-networked OS with an OK UI, followed by 25 years of duct tape.
They've never had "taste". Even their attempts at modern flat design are a total disaster.
Security for the longest of time was an afterthought, an entire industry was created to fill this fundamental gap. Even "internet" was an afterthought.
Another issue is that Microsoft does not see things through. They start various seemingly random initiatives and then just give up halfway through. They suck at execution. It's been 10 years since Windows 8, and the UI is messier than ever. Same for their various attempts at a "light" or mobile version of Windows.
I could go on, but the way I see it, Windows is the "people's OS". The use case for it is...all of them. It runs the combined use cases of billions of people, every niche you can think of. Most of these users do not see Windows as particularly enjoyable, nor do they enjoy Microsoft's mismanagement, they suffer in silence because it still somewhat works, and there's no realistic alternative.
Windows is not cool and not high growth, which is why I think Microsoft is doing an "Adobe". It's a platform to sell cloud products and soon will be a cloud platform/subscription in itself. Windows as a service. The writing is on the wall.
They've never had "taste". Even their attempts at modern flat design are a total disaster.
Security for the longest of time was an afterthought, an entire industry was created to fill this fundamental gap. Even "internet" was an afterthought.
Another issue is that Microsoft does not see things through. They start various seemingly random initiatives and then just give up halfway through. They suck at execution. It's been 10 years since Windows 8, and the UI is messier than ever. Same for their various attempts at a "light" or mobile version of Windows.
I could go on, but the way I see it, Windows is the "people's OS". The use case for it is...all of them. It runs the combined use cases of billions of people, every niche you can think of. Most of these users do not see Windows as particularly enjoyable, nor do they enjoy Microsoft's mismanagement, they suffer in silence because it still somewhat works, and there's no realistic alternative.
Windows is not cool and not high growth, which is why I think Microsoft is doing an "Adobe". It's a platform to sell cloud products and soon will be a cloud platform/subscription in itself. Windows as a service. The writing is on the wall.
Its ironic and scary how 3.11 was the last Windows with consistent
a) UI design. It was either a DOS box or a Win 3.11 style window
b) file sharing, simple and intuitive
c) integration with browsers. Browser was standalone. There was no integration.
a) UI design. It was either a DOS box or a Win 3.11 style window
b) file sharing, simple and intuitive
c) integration with browsers. Browser was standalone. There was no integration.
This article resonates really well with my frustration with Windows and oh how I wish I could just switch to Linux, sadly the lack of hardware customization on Linux is still a deal breaker for me.
It's strange to me tat the company during the xp-7 years had very solid and firm understanding of conservative UX design and seemed to take pride in it (essentially enterprise quality even for the end user), that ship seems to have sailed and instead acts like a hybrid of Facebook, Google and Apple worst practices.
It's strange to me tat the company during the xp-7 years had very solid and firm understanding of conservative UX design and seemed to take pride in it (essentially enterprise quality even for the end user), that ship seems to have sailed and instead acts like a hybrid of Facebook, Google and Apple worst practices.
It's almost cute that people still think Windows as a product team cares what individual users want/need/buy. Individual opinions/license purchases don't seem to move Microsoft a millimeter in any direction. As others pointed out, examples abound with the horrible UI intrusions/dumb things that users have to work around just to get work done. My personal pet peeve is this persistent Windows 10 screen dimming/darkening that happens whenever I pull up a terminal no matter the settings changed via UI or registry. Also, having volunteers doing the (not always helpful or even right) troubleshooting for frustrated users isolates the devs from the stupid decisions they or their managers make. (speaking as a software developer myself: devs should be required to work support briefly in the section they'll be developing on so they understand user frustrations).
I believe the reason users still pay is so the price can justifiably be multiplied in bulk corporate purchases, otherwise they'd give it away for free to get more of that sweet, sweet data. So they can copy Google, poorly.
I believe the reason users still pay is so the price can justifiably be multiplied in bulk corporate purchases, otherwise they'd give it away for free to get more of that sweet, sweet data. So they can copy Google, poorly.
> What’s the point of these changes? My first impression is that someone used a macOS machine a bit too much and decided to rip off the macOS-style Dock without really porting over anything else from the Dock behavior and trying to shoehorn it into Windows without considering any of the past conventions that make Windows what it is.
Why does this story sound so familiar as a Linux desktop user...
Why does this story sound so familiar as a Linux desktop user...
For about ten years now I've only used Windows for rare tasks I can't do on Linux.
Slowly I've just stopped doing those things until eventually, now, we're talking like, a dual boot I use a couple of times a year for things like running exam software or whatever.
Why would they change a winning recipe? Millions (billions) are perfectly happy with their shit sandwiches.
Slowly I've just stopped doing those things until eventually, now, we're talking like, a dual boot I use a couple of times a year for things like running exam software or whatever.
Why would they change a winning recipe? Millions (billions) are perfectly happy with their shit sandwiches.
Windows can only deprecate things at the rate people retire, so it ends up looking like a house that four generations of a family live in. Junior’s flashing the lights in the hall in time with Bassnectar using a programmable lightbulb he wired to an arduino while grandma is playing pinochle on the back porch with a couple of birds from church. Mom’s in the kitchen counting her blessings, enjoying her circa 1997 gas stove while Dad’s trying to figure out if he has to pony up for a new laptop for daughter to finish her homework, or is her problem that the latest Word won’t run Java applets? Did Word ever run applets? Meanwhile, Junior barely knows pinochle is a thing, but Grandma is convinced he has summoned demons. Kids these days.
I can't stand the ads. I feel like a sucker whenever I use windows for games, like I'm just there so the computer can extract something from me.
From the author's own words, sounds like he should stop supporting Windows.
I only support Windows and macOS as a masochistic exercise in extreme cross-platform support, and even then it's only CLI applications and programmatic API's, never GUI bother.
I only support Windows and macOS as a masochistic exercise in extreme cross-platform support, and even then it's only CLI applications and programmatic API's, never GUI bother.
Often in these conversations the response is around gaming as the last bastion that needs Windows. Im here to claim that its Office, specifically reliable desktop implementations of 365 and SharePoint/onedrive, not the (admittedly rather cool, but not nearly powerful enough) web versions. I am simultaneously encouraged and disturbed by the idea that, say, 365 desktop native Outlook might be rewritten as a cross platform Electron app. Encouraged because if I could have 365 on Linux I would transition overnight, and disturbed because of the thought of grindingly slow Office on Windows (Teams already showed this tendency).
Good article, one remark, still.
> breaking from the legacy is hard for the sake of backwards compatibility
Generally yes, but in case of Windows the hard part of the problem is already solved. I think it was just the wrong priorities. Specifically, Windows SDK could do following things to enable new styles/controls/behavior:
1. Require new apps to call an API to switch to new stuff, like InitCommonControlsEx
2. Require new apps to include an XML manifest with some flag or version number, like they did with high DPI support
3. A nuclear option — implement new userland, write new apps against that one; NT kernel supports multiple subsystems at the same time, Win32 is one of them.
> breaking from the legacy is hard for the sake of backwards compatibility
Generally yes, but in case of Windows the hard part of the problem is already solved. I think it was just the wrong priorities. Specifically, Windows SDK could do following things to enable new styles/controls/behavior:
1. Require new apps to call an API to switch to new stuff, like InitCommonControlsEx
2. Require new apps to include an XML manifest with some flag or version number, like they did with high DPI support
3. A nuclear option — implement new userland, write new apps against that one; NT kernel supports multiple subsystems at the same time, Win32 is one of them.
isn't all of this what they tried with UWP and WinRT ? It utterly failed. People want their useful win32 apps. Those are the only reason I boot on that OS once in a while.
UWP/WinRT was close to the nuclear option. I think the main reason it failed is their app store. They should have allowed to publish these new apps with SetupSomething.exe and I think developers would eventually switch.
A good example of that option is the way they did Linux support in WSL1. Not exactly a new subsystem but technically pretty close. They could do something like that only with GUI, and not based on Linux.
BTW, I still use WSL1 every day. Too bad it’s deprecated, WSL2 is VM based, borderline useless for me.
A good example of that option is the way they did Linux support in WSL1. Not exactly a new subsystem but technically pretty close. They could do something like that only with GUI, and not based on Linux.
BTW, I still use WSL1 every day. Too bad it’s deprecated, WSL2 is VM based, borderline useless for me.
Windows 11 adds another layer of chrome on top of 10, 8, 7, XP, and 98/95. All the code is there. I also see Firefox having the same issue albeit at a much smaller extent -- lots of legacy screens and maybe even some XUL.
I don't understand the surprise expressed by many in this thread. There's 47k engineers all working very hard to justify their job at MS, there's no incentive on making a good product, it just has to sell, keep your boss happy and that's it. Why would you expect that many people working fulltime to output anything consistent? There's only so many real requirements to get a product that works, and as soon as someone gets his hands on them it inevitably threatens an other team. So new requirements are created and you end up with this.
Why is anyone surprised, Microsoft can do whatever it wants and people still spend hundreds on its OS offering that has been awful for over a decade, so of course they are going to get more abusive to lower costs and raise revenues since people still buy the thing. This is at the heart of Meta (I hate that name) and Alphabet too, the most simplistic understanding of market dynamics should illuminate how this is working. What's weird is the government not trustbusting them and letting Germany cut them down here and there (not because they care about privacy but to make room for their domestic firms) while the once called conspiracy theory NSA are still amassing a monster to make Big Brother look like Little Whimpy Cousin, does no one else see the writing on the wall here?
You really can't even blame any of them for being that way, the public could have a multitude of free alternatives with a bit of effort and yet they rather spend 200 on an upfront abusive and honestly highly flawed OS, pay google to store their photos (and scan them with emerging AI technology) and use Facebook for whatever reason people even use that for. Why shouldn't they find the edge of what the public will now accept, since its changed so much. Such is the nature of organizations interacting with a market or the public (in the case of government agencies which operate the same way just less efficiently). As my dearly departed great grandmother said about this sort of thing between drags from her Lucky Strike unfiltered cigarette while tending her rose garden, "Ya gotta get it while the gettin is good!"
You really can't even blame any of them for being that way, the public could have a multitude of free alternatives with a bit of effort and yet they rather spend 200 on an upfront abusive and honestly highly flawed OS, pay google to store their photos (and scan them with emerging AI technology) and use Facebook for whatever reason people even use that for. Why shouldn't they find the edge of what the public will now accept, since its changed so much. Such is the nature of organizations interacting with a market or the public (in the case of government agencies which operate the same way just less efficiently). As my dearly departed great grandmother said about this sort of thing between drags from her Lucky Strike unfiltered cigarette while tending her rose garden, "Ya gotta get it while the gettin is good!"
For a website that is all about user interface design, I was surprised I couldn’t get the Ukrainian profanity to go away at the bottom of the page.
(I do support Ukraine but this user interface is bad.)
(I do support Ukraine but this user interface is bad.)
I have been a relatively happy windows 10 user since its release. Lots of small issues but overall very solid and no serious concerns.
Windows 11 doesn't seem to justify its existence in any way, and since the decision to require a microsoft account, I've decided I won't be upgrading to Windows 11 for any reason.
When windows 10 reaches EOL I will find an alternative. If its osx, ok. If its linux, ok. But Microsoft seems to continue to make their product worse and worse and pretend they're upgrades.
Windows 11 doesn't seem to justify its existence in any way, and since the decision to require a microsoft account, I've decided I won't be upgrading to Windows 11 for any reason.
When windows 10 reaches EOL I will find an alternative. If its osx, ok. If its linux, ok. But Microsoft seems to continue to make their product worse and worse and pretend they're upgrades.
Windows doesn't need to change a single thing, it's just doing it's thing and it's been doing it for ages. There are actually viable alternatives these days if you don't like it.
Windows has always been an inferior OS, but I don't worry or complain about it. It hasn't been on my radar for over 15 years. I've spent that time learning *nix patterns instead of dealing with Windows quirks. That choice has paid massive dividends.
Windows has always been an inferior OS, but I don't worry or complain about it. It hasn't been on my radar for over 15 years. I've spent that time learning *nix patterns instead of dealing with Windows quirks. That choice has paid massive dividends.
> I can literally run a game written for Windows 95 on Windows 11 without major issues
That probably isn't a good thing. Not without firing up some kind of explicit emulator.
That probably isn't a good thing. Not without firing up some kind of explicit emulator.
Yeah, I read that, and wondered if that is a real justification for, well, anything.
I have and can run Linux binaries I had compiled (statically) from the late 90s. Doesn't mean that I should. If you are running ancient games, run them on the ancient OS.
Using this as a reason to dismiss Mac and Linux? Not the best thought out argument. Kinda makes the opposite point than the author intended.
I have and can run Linux binaries I had compiled (statically) from the late 90s. Doesn't mean that I should. If you are running ancient games, run them on the ancient OS.
Using this as a reason to dismiss Mac and Linux? Not the best thought out argument. Kinda makes the opposite point than the author intended.
Also with package managers like Nix you can install older versions of a program along with that program's corresponding dependencies at the corresponding version and so on. It's not baked-in to unix but things like this are made easier on unix and I think that's where the sauce is.
Some weeks ago I resolved issues, for a friend, with searching for files or emails within outlook.
The results for searches firstly did not make sense, some files/emails found but most not.
I resolved the indexing of files by finally finding the right settings page after some time. The only feedback that I had done the right thing was seeing the “number of files indexed” incrementing.
For outlook, I was expecting some settings page within the app that would explain why emails were not being found. After some more time I found that the settings page was outside of outlook! I cannot remember where or how I fixed the issue but it was complete bullshit.
Every once in a while I have these experiences and and wonder how most people live with their computers and the amount of stress and time wasted on stuff that you would expect not to have to deal with in 2022.
Even though I have a soft spot for Microsoft, I abandoned their flagship product, the operating system, many years ago and was probably one of my wisest choices.
Just like I don’t use Google’s flagship product - I just hate it when companies ruin something near perfect by adding shit to please everyone or to milk it so much for profit that it becomes just a pile of trash.
The results for searches firstly did not make sense, some files/emails found but most not.
I resolved the indexing of files by finally finding the right settings page after some time. The only feedback that I had done the right thing was seeing the “number of files indexed” incrementing.
For outlook, I was expecting some settings page within the app that would explain why emails were not being found. After some more time I found that the settings page was outside of outlook! I cannot remember where or how I fixed the issue but it was complete bullshit.
Every once in a while I have these experiences and and wonder how most people live with their computers and the amount of stress and time wasted on stuff that you would expect not to have to deal with in 2022.
Even though I have a soft spot for Microsoft, I abandoned their flagship product, the operating system, many years ago and was probably one of my wisest choices.
Just like I don’t use Google’s flagship product - I just hate it when companies ruin something near perfect by adding shit to please everyone or to milk it so much for profit that it becomes just a pile of trash.
I ponied up for a win11 pro license so I could run the ARM version in Parallels on my M1 mini. All this just to run an old piece of CAD software. If it weren’t the M1 I’d still be running that CAD software in a Win7 VM. Microsoft is living well of of similar scenarios all across the world. It’s terrible within the enterprise. It starts off with the premise that people need windows desktops and laptops. Then it turns into you need AD. Now you need an AD team with half a dozen engineers and even more severs in your “forest” Now you need exchange. Hire a team for that. Might as well get teams too. And so on and so forth. Then accommodating all of these shitty Microsoft products has you paying millions of dollars in engineer salaries and even more in licensing costs. And every year MS just keeps bending you over with worse software and higher costs. Some day enterprise customers will get tired of supporting all this crap and start making long term decisions to reduce their reliance on windows on the desktop and therefore this leviathan of bullshit that infests their organization.
You know, for an operating system that's meant for an average user and not a tech-savy person (that most of us likely are), Windows 11 is fine if you strictly use the basic features. But if the average person of my dad's generation had a start tile, and clicked on windows on the left... they'd have no idea what's going on.
A lot of this appears to be changed just for the sake of it. What I don't understand is - it takes effort to change something. Why not keep the basics the way they are? Start tiles got a reskin I think 2 years ago, and while it changed the visual look (positively) it kept it functionally identical. The current changes... are not. Despite windows being the OS I'm most familiar with, I'm quite certain I'm going to go Linux with wine/proton after Win10 EOL (2025 iirc) - almost every Win11 article gives more reason to hate it, despite me wanting to love it. I'm setting up a server and I think I'll start dabbling with Linux from now itself so the transition is smooth.
A lot of this appears to be changed just for the sake of it. What I don't understand is - it takes effort to change something. Why not keep the basics the way they are? Start tiles got a reskin I think 2 years ago, and while it changed the visual look (positively) it kept it functionally identical. The current changes... are not. Despite windows being the OS I'm most familiar with, I'm quite certain I'm going to go Linux with wine/proton after Win10 EOL (2025 iirc) - almost every Win11 article gives more reason to hate it, despite me wanting to love it. I'm setting up a server and I think I'll start dabbling with Linux from now itself so the transition is smooth.
I did not develop a graphical Windows application since around 15 years now.
At the time it was mainly Win32, and WPF just starting.
I remember that Qt was a big thing though. They had this CSS like capability that would allow you to style your application after the fact. You could also just change the rendering backend at build time.
Is Qt not an option anymore to have all the various GUI details right?
I remember that Qt was a big thing though. They had this CSS like capability that would allow you to style your application after the fact. You could also just change the rendering backend at build time.
Is Qt not an option anymore to have all the various GUI details right?
The problem is, to really nail the look and feel, you're going to have to create your own controls with the same exact behaviors, looks, etc. and none of that is documented.
It seems Windows releases come in series of two, one good, one bad.
Windows XP, Windows Vista. Windows 7, Windows 8. Windows 10, Windows 11.
After each successful release Microsoft pull a bunch of crap. Users aren't happy and they rather use the older version than upgrade to the new one. Microsoft comes to its senses, release a better version and the cycle repeats.
So we should kind of wait for Windows 12.
Windows XP, Windows Vista. Windows 7, Windows 8. Windows 10, Windows 11.
After each successful release Microsoft pull a bunch of crap. Users aren't happy and they rather use the older version than upgrade to the new one. Microsoft comes to its senses, release a better version and the cycle repeats.
So we should kind of wait for Windows 12.
to me it seems more like the pile stuff on top of each other, trying to make bad stuff below the surface go away after it's sufficiently plastered over. but it never is 100% complete and you can still find components even from the Win3.x era. it's just that some releases they have plastered it a bit more completely (7) and others where it's most superficial (8, 11); Vista is a special one as it brought a major new kernel version, which afaik they are still using to this day.
This focuses on some aesthetic "features" and it doesn't even touch a large portion of all other problems. I won't even attempt but I'll mention one thing.
The part about Windows that bothers me most is that I have no control regarding how windows behave. I am typing and suddenly I am typing in another window! And there is no way to know what just happened. I could be pressing the ESC key while a window for another application just came in focus. Gone! The window and my text. WTF? Or it could be a window with a default button and I just pressed ENTER. Gone! What just happened? Impossible to know. DO NOT INTERFERE WITH MY FOCUS! If I am typing in a window, DO NOT EVER DISTURB ME. I am operating in a context. MY CONTEXT. Not Cortana. Not some app that wants to do something on a schedule because of some enterprise policy. I am working!
The part about Windows that bothers me most is that I have no control regarding how windows behave. I am typing and suddenly I am typing in another window! And there is no way to know what just happened. I could be pressing the ESC key while a window for another application just came in focus. Gone! The window and my text. WTF? Or it could be a window with a default button and I just pressed ENTER. Gone! What just happened? Impossible to know. DO NOT INTERFERE WITH MY FOCUS! If I am typing in a window, DO NOT EVER DISTURB ME. I am operating in a context. MY CONTEXT. Not Cortana. Not some app that wants to do something on a schedule because of some enterprise policy. I am working!
For me Windows is starting to resemble consumer routers. I mean, some serious resources and engineering talent had to have been spent on the internals, the kernel, networking, drivers. But the thing that the users, the people paying and using the OS end up interacting with ends up getting the least resources and even less focus.
My theory as to why that is is kinda like The Color of the Bikeshed Theory. New management hires want to make a name for themselves and want to work on something that's visible, that they have an illusion they know something about and something that they can use to climb up the corp ladder. So with each iteration some new idiot comes along and wants to start over. Two years later, when the thing's half finished, they move on and a new person comes along...
My theory as to why that is is kinda like The Color of the Bikeshed Theory. New management hires want to make a name for themselves and want to work on something that's visible, that they have an illusion they know something about and something that they can use to climb up the corp ladder. So with each iteration some new idiot comes along and wants to start over. Two years later, when the thing's half finished, they move on and a new person comes along...
That’s ok - my computer still thinks it isn’t TPM capable.
So it seems that craziness will save me from the other MS craziness
So it seems that craziness will save me from the other MS craziness
Why do I get redirected to https://den.dev/ukraine? This isn't a good idea.
edit: https://archive.ph/q8ayE
edit: https://archive.ph/q8ayE
Because virtue signaling. I'm not saying this to de-legitimize the "russia is bad" message, but the fact is, in instances like this (eg. a personal blog) such actions are far more about benefiting the person performing the action (ie. setting up the ukraine message) than it is actually about getting russia to stop.
Agree. Those tricky Ukrainians become annoying
Yes, I'm Russian. No, I don't support what's happening right now and I stand with Ukraine. No, I can't do anything about it. Now get out of the way and let me read the article.
These performative acts of shoving politics where it doesn't belong doesn't do anything to change the situation, they just make people like me angry.
These performative acts of shoving politics where it doesn't belong doesn't do anything to change the situation, they just make people like me angry.
Yeah, ads are annoying, sort of like someone taking a feather and tickling the back of your neck every few minutes. As for the inconsistencies, haven't really noticed and don't really care. If enough people make noise, someone may get a bug up their xxx and do something about it. The main game I play is on Windows, so windows it is. I get enough programming at work that I don't really want to do it at home anymore (and I'm on Linux / UNIX at work).
A lot of what we are seeing is most likely due to Microsoft's eventual transition to Windows as a subscription. I suspect that's inevitable. As long as I can play my games and read my gmail ... meh.
A lot of what we are seeing is most likely due to Microsoft's eventual transition to Windows as a subscription. I suspect that's inevitable. As long as I can play my games and read my gmail ... meh.
Vote with your feet. Debian, Arch Linux, etc.
I switched over to castrated versions of Windows a while ago, like AME and Ninjutsu OS. The polite word is "custom" versions, but I call them castrated versions because they can't fuck me anymore.
> The context menu in File Explorer now gates some of the most useful options behind another extra click […] What’s the point of these changes?
For that specific change, the Windows Developer Blog post “Extending the Context Menu and Share Dialog in Windows 11” (https://blogs.windows.com/windowsdeveloper/2021/07/19/extend...) hints at the designers’ reasons.
I haven’t switched to Windows 11 due to the many other complaints I’ve heard, but based on various statements in that post I can imagine good reasons for changing the context menu:
# Saving menu navigation time
Having a long menu that contains every option is not free: it requires more time and effort from the user when they locate and click on the common items they use. Depending on how often the prioritized items are clicked and how big the penalty is for, the tradeoff could be worth it.
I don’t have the data on how much menu navigation time a smaller menu saves in the long term, but since Microsoft forces telemetry on users, hopefully they did at least collect such data while they evaluated the new design.
# Encouraging API upgrades
This change also encourages app developers to upgrade their context menu extensions to the latest API by “punishing” them if they don’t, by making their context menu items slower to access. While it’s understandable that developers of such apps would feel annoyed at this increased pressure to upgrade, such a policy might be an effective way to helping end users by solving the last two Windows 10 context menu problems listed by the blog post. That is, this increased pressure to use a newer API might:
• increase the numbers of apps the user uses whose commands are attributable to that app
• increase the number of apps the user uses whose extensions of the context menu have a lower risk of performance and reliability issues
However, I do see the potential for this backfiring if developers of Windows apps think that Windows is requiring too much upkeep for maintaining their software on Windows to be worth it.
For that specific change, the Windows Developer Blog post “Extending the Context Menu and Share Dialog in Windows 11” (https://blogs.windows.com/windowsdeveloper/2021/07/19/extend...) hints at the designers’ reasons.
I haven’t switched to Windows 11 due to the many other complaints I’ve heard, but based on various statements in that post I can imagine good reasons for changing the context menu:
# Saving menu navigation time
Having a long menu that contains every option is not free: it requires more time and effort from the user when they locate and click on the common items they use. Depending on how often the prioritized items are clicked and how big the penalty is for, the tradeoff could be worth it.
I don’t have the data on how much menu navigation time a smaller menu saves in the long term, but since Microsoft forces telemetry on users, hopefully they did at least collect such data while they evaluated the new design.
# Encouraging API upgrades
This change also encourages app developers to upgrade their context menu extensions to the latest API by “punishing” them if they don’t, by making their context menu items slower to access. While it’s understandable that developers of such apps would feel annoyed at this increased pressure to upgrade, such a policy might be an effective way to helping end users by solving the last two Windows 10 context menu problems listed by the blog post. That is, this increased pressure to use a newer API might:
• increase the numbers of apps the user uses whose commands are attributable to that app
• increase the number of apps the user uses whose extensions of the context menu have a lower risk of performance and reliability issues
However, I do see the potential for this backfiring if developers of Windows apps think that Windows is requiring too much upkeep for maintaining their software on Windows to be worth it.
There already is an ideal version of Windows 10, without windows store, metro, cortana, xbox live, ads etc. etc. It also will get support and security updates but zero feature updates or changes for 10 years. It's called Windows 10 LTSB.
They dont sell this useful version of windows to normal people though, only to corps via a volume license.
This is one of those situations that behooves one to pirate it, and there are plenty of copies of this + crack on torrent sites.
> There is Windows Forms, WPF, MAUI, UWP, WTL, WinUI, MFC, and I am sure others that I am missing.
The list is missing the old Win32 API? Microsoft never cared about continuation between UI libraries and HIG. Neither application programmers. They just add another UI when they feel the need. While Gtk is puting a lot effort in compatibility and consistency and they're blamed anyway. Usually for theming which Gtk actually doesn't appreciate. And for Qt compatibility is a business model.
The list is missing the old Win32 API? Microsoft never cared about continuation between UI libraries and HIG. Neither application programmers. They just add another UI when they feel the need. While Gtk is puting a lot effort in compatibility and consistency and they're blamed anyway. Usually for theming which Gtk actually doesn't appreciate. And for Qt compatibility is a business model.
Windows has to revert back to Windows 2000 when it was usable.
Very tangential, but the free and open source code (“Linux”) counterpoint to software longevity is version control.
You don’t need to care about old binary compatibility because you don’t have old binaries, only old source code. If your modern compiler doesn’t like it, just build the old compiler instead.
Good luck finding a matching libxyz though, for your git checkout —before 10.years.ago. Friendly reminder to vendor in your third party dependencies alongside your source code.
You don’t need to care about old binary compatibility because you don’t have old binaries, only old source code. If your modern compiler doesn’t like it, just build the old compiler instead.
Good luck finding a matching libxyz though, for your git checkout —before 10.years.ago. Friendly reminder to vendor in your third party dependencies alongside your source code.
It's funny how much it's been becoming more difficult it is to tweak Windows with janky workarounds compared to just installing a Linux distro altogether
Yeah, I switch to Linux as my main OS about a month after Windows 8.0 was released. I definitely didn't like the direction Microsoft seemed to be taking. I now run MX Linux and have a Windows 10 VM (with GPU pass through)for the games that won't run under Linux and for the occasional photo editing session (I really dislike Gimp!). Linux has had way fewer issues for me than the recent chain of Windows releases.
It's been my issue with some of the non-azure MSFT products generally speaking. You can play games and have fun backgrounds in Teams, but the app eats up all your memory and chatting sucks. Windows is the same as the article is pointing out. It somehow became harder to save documents in office. Feels like all the feature sets in the products are pushed with the wrong agenda. "better is the enemy of good"
windows is great (/s) for having multiple areas with the same settings like regular "Control Panel Mouse" and "Mouse and Keyboard" and "Gaming"
as a user it makes getting help when something is not working (which is often) very difficult and borderline impossible
not to mention completely infuriating
if i could boot directly into a launcher for my games i would do it in a heartbeat. get the OS out of my way please
as a user it makes getting help when something is not working (which is often) very difficult and borderline impossible
not to mention completely infuriating
if i could boot directly into a launcher for my games i would do it in a heartbeat. get the OS out of my way please
Although most points are true, I don't think ms is the one to blame about limit of changing new tab page.
The reason of limit of change default edge new tab is simple. It is just due to adwares. The adwares changed the dawn new tabs instead of the users changed it everytime. The popularity is so high that there is no benefit to allow users change it by default. Because users won't do it, adware will.
The reason of limit of change default edge new tab is simple. It is just due to adwares. The adwares changed the dawn new tabs instead of the users changed it everytime. The popularity is so high that there is no benefit to allow users change it by default. Because users won't do it, adware will.
> I mean, I can literally run a game written for Windows 95 on Windows 11 without major issues (no, I am not going to open the SafeDisc can of worms this time). I can’t do that on macOS or Linux boxes reliably, and yet Windows is doing a-OK with this task.
While I get the point, that is not as true as it sounds. E.g. AFAIK running Tomb Raider 2 is easier on Linux via Proton/Wine than it is on Windows.
While I get the point, that is not as true as it sounds. E.g. AFAIK running Tomb Raider 2 is easier on Linux via Proton/Wine than it is on Windows.
>I mean, I can literally run a game written for Windows 95 on Windows 11 without major issues
Ok, I think this person hasn't tried to run many old games.
Ok, I think this person hasn't tried to run many old games.
It's not ideal, but to be fair, a lot of them (not all) that don't require funky DRM APIs (a-la Grand Theft Auto IV with Games for Windows Live) do work decently. Some might need to have a right-click, run in compatibility mode check done.
> After all, what else are you going to do if you need to run Photoshop or Premiere for your work - switch to Linux? Good luck with that.
I now believe that you can't like Windows because of exactly this. Linux gives you choice, and if someone wants to create a competitor OS from the Linux kernel (or even from another OS) they can. That is incredibly healthy and sustainable.
I now believe that you can't like Windows because of exactly this. Linux gives you choice, and if someone wants to create a competitor OS from the Linux kernel (or even from another OS) they can. That is incredibly healthy and sustainable.
Maybe the personal desktop idea has done its time and they can't find ways to motivate hard work for the reducing profits.
No. It's just reached the point where organic growth is all that's possible. This leaves Microsoft no choice other than the turn their users into the product in order to increase revenue.
It's a GOOD thing! The more people that migrate off of Windows the better the world will be because then companies can (hopefully) focus their software development on non-closed, cross-platform ecosystems.
Microsoft is long overdue for a market correction. Hopefully the OS market will diversify, bringing a cambrian explosion of life into the market.
It's a GOOD thing! The more people that migrate off of Windows the better the world will be because then companies can (hopefully) focus their software development on non-closed, cross-platform ecosystems.
Microsoft is long overdue for a market correction. Hopefully the OS market will diversify, bringing a cambrian explosion of life into the market.
For anyone curious why these inconsistencies happen:
https://youtu.be/5IUj1EZwpJY https://www.melconway.com/Home/pdf/committees.pdf
https://youtu.be/5IUj1EZwpJY https://www.melconway.com/Home/pdf/committees.pdf
having both mac and PC (windows), it is honestly very frustrating to see how significant small bugs are there when it is launched. I found myself constantly trying to raise my voice in microsoft but don't know where to go. Simple things such as task manager and file explorer are super laggy. I'm not sure how does the PM / QA approve that when they launch?
At least in apple, it just works, I don't think I've ever felt super frustrated that I feel like I want to find a way to report a bug. Sure they've got a feedback form / assistant that may or may not be answered as well, but I don't remember the last time I want to report something in apple. Community forum is good, apple support is 1 click away for hardware related. You just feel the definition of "it just works".
Sure its hard to manage 2 of the biggest tech companies in the world. but when will MS ever learn?
At least in apple, it just works, I don't think I've ever felt super frustrated that I feel like I want to find a way to report a bug. Sure they've got a feedback form / assistant that may or may not be answered as well, but I don't remember the last time I want to report something in apple. Community forum is good, apple support is 1 click away for hardware related. You just feel the definition of "it just works".
Sure its hard to manage 2 of the biggest tech companies in the world. but when will MS ever learn?
All of these gripes are valid. And none of them aside from the new actively-evil stuff in 10 and 11 like telemetry can ever be fixed, because all of this poorly-matched stuff is exactly why almost all old Windows software (apart from games, that's just a lie thanks to DRM and GPU vendors) still run.
People should really look into using the LTSC version instead the pre-installed windows 10. lTSC has no crap apps and bare minimal footprint in terms of shit preloaded. Also there are tools like privatezilla on GitHub to tweak some privacy settings and wpd.app which can block telemetry on firewall level.
Windows has always been (mostly) pretty rad to code for. Best library documentation you'll ever find and, as the author points out, exceptional backwards compatibility. That said, I don't like to use it. Much prefer macOS. But I "get" and appreciate Windows. It's pretty good.
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I really don't care that much about UI visual consistency so long as it doesn't make the application confusing (i.e. not underlining hyperlinks or something). However, stuff like tasks on startup should be managed in one location that is easy to find.
> stuff like tasks on startup should be managed in one location that is easy to find
Task Manager's Startup tab?
Task Manager's Startup tab?
It doesn't show everything there. For example, it doesn't show Steam or Discord on my machine at all. There are many ways of implementing startup tasks on Windows.
[deleted]
> I can literally run a game written for Windows 95 on Windows 11 without major issues
This is not my experience with Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic. Worked flawlessly with Proton but it didn't even launch correctly on Windows 10. It's a hit-or-miss and not a silver bullet.
This is not my experience with Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic. Worked flawlessly with Proton but it didn't even launch correctly on Windows 10. It's a hit-or-miss and not a silver bullet.
If users were willing to put up with all the dark patterns, ads and tracking in Windows 10, they'll suffer through this too and the next iteration. People using computers as appliances won't care, and the rest technical enough to be annoyed are boiling frogs.
Happy that Microsoft lost the mobile wars. So just wait 10 years and Windows will be gone anyway.
I highly recommend using 'autoruns' [0].
0 - https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/downloads/auto...
0 - https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/downloads/auto...
I just want a barebones version of windows with none of the fluff. It would also be nice if they could hire someone that understood fonts and icons and worked on those too. At this point all I see is an old OS that keeps getting garbage bolted on to it.
The best way to make windows better, is, "stop using windows". That is the only way.
The problem is that it is garbage and has always been garbage. I just bought my wife a new laptop that had 11 pre-installed. It REQUIRES a MS account to use the laptop. So I returned it today and got her a Mac. Problem solved.
Anyone else expect this to be about the Windows scheduler?
It is a godawful shame, as Windows has the potential to be quite a good operating system for PCs, with just a bit more engineering effort and a bit less filthy gunk it could be great.
It is a godawful shame, as Windows has the potential to be quite a good operating system for PCs, with just a bit more engineering effort and a bit less filthy gunk it could be great.
There is no reason for ms to care about any of these issues while users keep paying for Windows, either through new PC builds or directly. It doesn't help that in many cases there is no viable alternative for users.
It put me off Windows years ago. Though it was the constant battle with alert boxes, popups and other windows that stole focus that put me over the edge. If my computer doesn't let me type text undisturbed, why do even use that tool?
When I was buying a new computer last month, I spent a some time considering if it should be Mac or Linux. The Windows option was rejected rather quickly. And I was a Windows developer around the time .NET was starting.
[deleted]
There isn't much competition in the desktop space. It's either macOS with its downsides or Windows with its downsides.
Basically neither Microsoft nor Apple have any pressure to make life better for users.
Basically neither Microsoft nor Apple have any pressure to make life better for users.
The incentives do seem slightly different although I do worry about Apple's forays into services.
The only thing keeping me on windows at this point is getting all 5 of my monitors to work under Linux with my 3090 and 2080ti. The only other issue was fusion 360 but someone fixed that.
I fully understand the need to express support or condemnation for any popular worldwide topic, but why did they have to make it persistent? The bottom bar is so annoying on this site.
Thank you for the note. Because the worldwide topic touches directly on me and my family, I've decided that this was the right approach for my own blog.
Windows IS shareware. You just haven't realized it yet.
I would be nice if ReactOS team would be funded to finish development of the OS. You would run any Windows software without the annoying bits that Windows has.
> I can literally run a game written for Windows 95 on Windows 11 without major issues
I'm not really sure about this. Games like Vampire the Masquerade comes to mind.
I'm not really sure about this. Games like Vampire the Masquerade comes to mind.
This made me feel a lot of schadenfreude and also made me feel better about the “Upgrade to MacOS Monterey” notification on my incompatible Mac.
Maybe someone should make a file browser app for Windows so we can continue enjoying ad-less perusal of finding and opening a file in Windows.
Windows needs a good stackexchange forum where one can find all kinds of workarounds for its shortcomings. Otherwise it will stay unusable.
> “Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.”
To this end, I find it somewhat funny how people still believe Microsoft has a redemption arc.
To this end, I find it somewhat funny how people still believe Microsoft has a redemption arc.
I have always used Windows, but the reasons to are really going away. I mostly just use browsers and IntellJ, even Linux can do that.
confused software encourages confused habits of mind.
ditched windows (and its apparent organizational brain damage) 18 years ago and have only ever looked back when forced to in employment situations.
strongly believe that if you normalize broken computing by forcing developers to use broken platforms, then they'll produce broken software.
ditched windows (and its apparent organizational brain damage) 18 years ago and have only ever looked back when forced to in employment situations.
strongly believe that if you normalize broken computing by forcing developers to use broken platforms, then they'll produce broken software.
Gaming was the only thing keeping me on windows. Windows 11 ads have given me a reason to finally move to Linux.
I'm on mobile. How do I close that "Support Ukraine" banner taking up 1/3 of the screen?
I’m curious to see if Microsoft will lose market share to Linux and MacOS over it’s user hostile practices
That can only happen when those other OSs match the level of functionality, reliability, and support that windows enjoys. I would love to switch my main OS to a Linux distro but it is still unstable enough and not supported enough that I can't reasonably switch.
As far as I can tell, our best hope is for Linux to improve at the same rate or faster as it has over the last 5 years for at least the next 5. Only then will Microsoft start to face any meaningful competition in operating systems.
As far as I can tell, our best hope is for Linux to improve at the same rate or faster as it has over the last 5 years for at least the next 5. Only then will Microsoft start to face any meaningful competition in operating systems.
So long it's deployed on laptops by default, probably not.
If not have left xp if it wasn't for automatic driver installations
Find me a linux distro that can play ANY/ALL steam games.....
Am I the only one on HN who doesn't care about these? I mean they're just the standard Windows 11 complaints (UI style inconsistency, requiring a Microsoft account, not being able to easily change the default from Edge). But they come up again and again, and everyone acts that they're doing the world a favor by listing them. Just look at the top comment, which starts (rather boldly) with: "Like every Windows user, I have had a lot of frustrating experiences with the abusive behavior and dark patterns that have taken over the platform". But, I don't care, and probably many others don't care. Maybe Windows will get worse for people with my set of priorities if you get your way?
What would people rather have? A new OS that doesn't vacuum up your privacy or social media that doesn't partisan censor? Which is more important?
[deleted]
Windows is free as in adverts for beer
there's also built in keyloggers, eye tracking, and an absolutely insane amount of telemetry. revoke permissions for the camera and mic and see how many times "your settings blocked access" notifications show up.
Y U h8 capitalism? A bit dated, but http://www.proudlyserving.com/ is still a worthwhile read to understand the Microsoft mindset.
RIP windows.
I couldn't agree with many of the things stated in this article more. I really
disliked Windows 8. Windows 10 was what made me move to a Mac for my next personal computer acquisition (I'm still stuck with Windows at work), but at least it grew on me after a while. I mean, I'm still not a huge fan of it but many of the rough edges got ironed out and I've gotten used to many of its quirks. Windows 11 on the other hand -- it's just so aggressively terrible that I actively dread using it. Just simple things like changing the volume, or changing the power settings on a laptop have become excruciatingly slow or require much more effort than before. In so many places text has been removed for the sake of "cleanliness" -- like in File Explorer, the Ribbon is now just a set of largely indistinguishable buttons with no labels that I'll never use. The Explorer context menu has been reduced to mostly things I don't care about and a more indistinguishable buttons I'll never use while burying the context menu things I really want behind another mouse click. (Thankfully there's a magic registry key that restores the old-style context menus.)
It's easy to point out the consistency issues -- and yeah, they are really bad, and everywhere making Windows 11 feel like an early beta, not a full fledged release. More than anything even basic stuff that's worked well for years or decades has regressed to a point where so many things are barely functional or even recognizable anymore. It's like some designer had MacOS described to them verbally and decided to redesign Windows to look similar. Unfortunately, the latest versions of MacOS aren't all that awesome either when it comes to consistency or usability. In so many ways the design decisions in Windows 11 feel like solutions in search of problems -- they certainly don't make my experience using it any better -- all they do is make me appreciate Windows 10 more than ever (never thought I'd have that sentiment). I keep hoping Windows 11 will get better but even on the latest Insider builds I see very little in the way of improvements to things I really care about so it gives me little confidence.
The article brings up a some great points about how there's no "one" UI framework and the difficulties for developers to make their applications look consistent -- and this is totally true. There's so many different UI frameworks from Microsoft with different levels of maturity, abandonment, usefulness, usability, and use. I'm a big fan of WPF and I think it's one of the best desktop UI frameworks out there -- and sadly it's largely been left to rot which is a real shame and it doesn't support many of the newer aspects of Windows without a lot of hacks. UWP is simply awful -- I swore it off after using it for one project. WinUI and MAUI have huge problems of their own and still feel beta. It makes you wonder what are you supposed to use for new projects when you're stuck with either a great framework that seems dead , or a bunch of new ones that don't feel production ready. This nearly 20 year old blog post from Joel Spolsky is just as relevant and prescient as ever: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2004/06/13/how-microsoft-lost...
It's easy to point out the consistency issues -- and yeah, they are really bad, and everywhere making Windows 11 feel like an early beta, not a full fledged release. More than anything even basic stuff that's worked well for years or decades has regressed to a point where so many things are barely functional or even recognizable anymore. It's like some designer had MacOS described to them verbally and decided to redesign Windows to look similar. Unfortunately, the latest versions of MacOS aren't all that awesome either when it comes to consistency or usability. In so many ways the design decisions in Windows 11 feel like solutions in search of problems -- they certainly don't make my experience using it any better -- all they do is make me appreciate Windows 10 more than ever (never thought I'd have that sentiment). I keep hoping Windows 11 will get better but even on the latest Insider builds I see very little in the way of improvements to things I really care about so it gives me little confidence.
The article brings up a some great points about how there's no "one" UI framework and the difficulties for developers to make their applications look consistent -- and this is totally true. There's so many different UI frameworks from Microsoft with different levels of maturity, abandonment, usefulness, usability, and use. I'm a big fan of WPF and I think it's one of the best desktop UI frameworks out there -- and sadly it's largely been left to rot which is a real shame and it doesn't support many of the newer aspects of Windows without a lot of hacks. UWP is simply awful -- I swore it off after using it for one project. WinUI and MAUI have huge problems of their own and still feel beta. It makes you wonder what are you supposed to use for new projects when you're stuck with either a great framework that seems dead , or a bunch of new ones that don't feel production ready. This nearly 20 year old blog post from Joel Spolsky is just as relevant and prescient as ever: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2004/06/13/how-microsoft-lost...
Except for some details, I really REALLY like Windows. Really what I'm liking is computing, and Windows is a big part of that because I selected Windows instead of Linux.
Over the years there have been some changes: So, we have new hardware, some HUGELY important new communications standards, a huge effort on computer security, etc., and it is crucial that Windows has kept up with the changes. I like that. And I like that I can still run my favorite old programs: Since I do all I can with plain text, my most heavily used program is my favorite text editor KEDIT. And I really like hierarchical file systems so really REALLY like Microsoft's NTFS (new technology file system) and do a lot of tree walking, searching, copying, deleting, etc.
But Microsoft went for an unstated philosophy of a graphical user interface (GUI) where (a) there is a metaphor of direct manipulation of desktop objects and (b) commands and operations are to be learned by experimentation without documentation. I can see some utility there, otherwise I still like command lines because the documentation tends to be better, it is more clear just what is going on, and I can script, automate some of the operations.
And I get to write software, e.g., in .NET, ASP.NET, ADO.NET for my Web site startup and whatever else seems worthwhile. So far, I like .NET. I do wish Microsoft had explained, just explained in simple text, just what the heck .NET CORE was. By now I've come to a guess that .NET CORE is irrelevant to me and I should f'get about it -- would have been nice to have had some EXPLANATION.
For the future of GUIs, that seems to be just Web pages, i.e., HTML.
For me, the above is the view of Windows I find most important. For the future, I hope that Microsoft does not mess up that view. To have me a happier customer, Microsoft should concentrate on one word, DOCUMENTATION.
I can understand that Microsoft has some middle managers who want to add things to Windows or change Windows to improve it. Now, for changes such as I mentioned above, SURE. Otherwise, please sit down: Each new version of Windows I find to be, in one word, a pain. The changes are not improvements but PAINS. E.g., with the old version of Windows, after hundreds of hours of work I finally learned and documented for myself how to get routine things done. Then with the changes, I have to invest many more hours just to be able to continue to get routine things done and for no gains at all. Sorry Microsoft middle manager: To me you are like TV producers, what they try for, I don't like; what I like, they don't try for.
E.g., as far as I can tell from a command line window
Examples:
> runas /noprofile /user:mymachine\administrator cmd
is wrong. Just wrong. It doesn't work. First, set aside that from this "example" can't tell what is a constant and what is a variable. So, try all possible combinations. Second, still, nothing works. Nothing. Go for 1, 2, 3 hours trying everything. Did I mention, nothing works? This is grotesquely bad computing. Just awful. Want to make things better, fix things like that.
But it's worse: Go out on the Internet and can find lots of documentation of that command. Some of the documentation has lots of double quote marks. Nothing worked. Hours; nothing worked. We're talking mud wrestling here. Eventually I got the software to request my administrator password, but that was as far as it went.
This isn't my work. Yet my time, effort, energy are soaked up, repeatedly, over and over, by such system management mud wrestling documentation problems.
Eventually I guessed some of what was going on and found another path that did work. It's not fully clear just why that worked, but it did.
Documentation? I took some good notes, and apparently they are better than anything from Microsoft or readily available on the Internet.
The main bottleneck in my startup is the bad documentation that leads to wasted effort in this mud wrestling. What fraction of my effort goes to such stuff? Essentially 100% -- I can't get back to my real work due to a continuing list of such disasters. They are taking up ALL my time, just mud wrestling from bad documentation.
For Windows, Firefox, Acrobat, etc., sure, important security updates and otherwise I'll consider updates in functionality maybe twice a year, maybe once a year, or once each 2nd year. Except for security, bluntly and quite broadly I don't want your updates but will consider some, say, occasionally. As you force updates on me, I get TORQUED, become a VERY unhappy customer.
E.g., Adobe went too far, essentially taking over my PC, at startup, with updates I don't want, with popups, with "Do you want to ...", and yesterday I deleted everything from Adobe now "Dead to me.". Firefox will read a PDF (portable document format) file, at least the ones I want read, a little better than Acrobat. Adobe, with me, you went too far and BLEW IT.
I have big hopes for the future of computing for myself, Microsoft, the computer industry, the economy, and civilization, but I want do to my part, get on with it, and there is no room in that work for me to click "NO" tens of thousands of times to popup windows stopping my work until I answer some "Do you want to ...", and there is no excuse for the system management mud wrestling from bad documentation.
At one time Microsoft was very interested in "developers, developers, developers!!!". Well, I'm trying to be one. Then I hope to be a good customer for Windows Server and SQL Server. And on Windows XP and Windows 7 I got 100,000 lines of .NET code running apparently as intended. But now I've lost YEARS of time in system management mud wrestling from bad documentation.
I can't be a good customer of Windows Server if you have me stuck in a mud hole wasting time.
Over the years there have been some changes: So, we have new hardware, some HUGELY important new communications standards, a huge effort on computer security, etc., and it is crucial that Windows has kept up with the changes. I like that. And I like that I can still run my favorite old programs: Since I do all I can with plain text, my most heavily used program is my favorite text editor KEDIT. And I really like hierarchical file systems so really REALLY like Microsoft's NTFS (new technology file system) and do a lot of tree walking, searching, copying, deleting, etc.
But Microsoft went for an unstated philosophy of a graphical user interface (GUI) where (a) there is a metaphor of direct manipulation of desktop objects and (b) commands and operations are to be learned by experimentation without documentation. I can see some utility there, otherwise I still like command lines because the documentation tends to be better, it is more clear just what is going on, and I can script, automate some of the operations.
And I get to write software, e.g., in .NET, ASP.NET, ADO.NET for my Web site startup and whatever else seems worthwhile. So far, I like .NET. I do wish Microsoft had explained, just explained in simple text, just what the heck .NET CORE was. By now I've come to a guess that .NET CORE is irrelevant to me and I should f'get about it -- would have been nice to have had some EXPLANATION.
For the future of GUIs, that seems to be just Web pages, i.e., HTML.
For me, the above is the view of Windows I find most important. For the future, I hope that Microsoft does not mess up that view. To have me a happier customer, Microsoft should concentrate on one word, DOCUMENTATION.
I can understand that Microsoft has some middle managers who want to add things to Windows or change Windows to improve it. Now, for changes such as I mentioned above, SURE. Otherwise, please sit down: Each new version of Windows I find to be, in one word, a pain. The changes are not improvements but PAINS. E.g., with the old version of Windows, after hundreds of hours of work I finally learned and documented for myself how to get routine things done. Then with the changes, I have to invest many more hours just to be able to continue to get routine things done and for no gains at all. Sorry Microsoft middle manager: To me you are like TV producers, what they try for, I don't like; what I like, they don't try for.
E.g., as far as I can tell from a command line window
Examples:
> runas /noprofile /user:mymachine\administrator cmd
is wrong. Just wrong. It doesn't work. First, set aside that from this "example" can't tell what is a constant and what is a variable. So, try all possible combinations. Second, still, nothing works. Nothing. Go for 1, 2, 3 hours trying everything. Did I mention, nothing works? This is grotesquely bad computing. Just awful. Want to make things better, fix things like that.
But it's worse: Go out on the Internet and can find lots of documentation of that command. Some of the documentation has lots of double quote marks. Nothing worked. Hours; nothing worked. We're talking mud wrestling here. Eventually I got the software to request my administrator password, but that was as far as it went.
This isn't my work. Yet my time, effort, energy are soaked up, repeatedly, over and over, by such system management mud wrestling documentation problems.
Eventually I guessed some of what was going on and found another path that did work. It's not fully clear just why that worked, but it did.
Documentation? I took some good notes, and apparently they are better than anything from Microsoft or readily available on the Internet.
The main bottleneck in my startup is the bad documentation that leads to wasted effort in this mud wrestling. What fraction of my effort goes to such stuff? Essentially 100% -- I can't get back to my real work due to a continuing list of such disasters. They are taking up ALL my time, just mud wrestling from bad documentation.
For Windows, Firefox, Acrobat, etc., sure, important security updates and otherwise I'll consider updates in functionality maybe twice a year, maybe once a year, or once each 2nd year. Except for security, bluntly and quite broadly I don't want your updates but will consider some, say, occasionally. As you force updates on me, I get TORQUED, become a VERY unhappy customer.
E.g., Adobe went too far, essentially taking over my PC, at startup, with updates I don't want, with popups, with "Do you want to ...", and yesterday I deleted everything from Adobe now "Dead to me.". Firefox will read a PDF (portable document format) file, at least the ones I want read, a little better than Acrobat. Adobe, with me, you went too far and BLEW IT.
I have big hopes for the future of computing for myself, Microsoft, the computer industry, the economy, and civilization, but I want do to my part, get on with it, and there is no room in that work for me to click "NO" tens of thousands of times to popup windows stopping my work until I answer some "Do you want to ...", and there is no excuse for the system management mud wrestling from bad documentation.
At one time Microsoft was very interested in "developers, developers, developers!!!". Well, I'm trying to be one. Then I hope to be a good customer for Windows Server and SQL Server. And on Windows XP and Windows 7 I got 100,000 lines of .NET code running apparently as intended. But now I've lost YEARS of time in system management mud wrestling from bad documentation.
I can't be a good customer of Windows Server if you have me stuck in a mud hole wasting time.
> So far, I like .NET. I do wish Microsoft had explained, just explained in simple text, just what the heck .NET CORE was. By now I've come to a guess that .NET CORE is irrelevant to me and I should f'get about it -- would have been nice to have had some EXPLANATION.
I would say that .NET Core is certainly relevant to you and shouldn’t be ignored.
As for a simple explanation, another user on this site wrote this which I found extremely helpful. https://dusted.codes/dotnet-basics
I would say that .NET Core is certainly relevant to you and shouldn’t be ignored.
As for a simple explanation, another user on this site wrote this which I found extremely helpful. https://dusted.codes/dotnet-basics
MANY THANKS for the link
Microsoft, this document is HELPING you a LOT with me. Did I mention, my view is that the biggest problem in my software writing, startup, Microsoft, the US economy, the future of computing, and progress in civilization now is in just one word, DOCUMENTATION that is missing for Microsoft's software. This is not funny or a joke but very serious.
Okay, .NET Foundation, through version 4.x, was for writing software only on Windows, and CORE was for writing software on nearly any operating system. Now at .NET version 5, Foundation and CORE have become the same thing.
Okay. I suspect that with CORE/.NET version 5, my old code written using .NET 2.x and 4.x and ASP.NET and ADO.NET will still run as before, mostly or entirely except maybe a lot faster. Okay.
I would make some suggestions about
(2) Say that jargon is a word used with a meaning not in a standard dictionary and used with a narrow meaning in a narrow field. Well, the document would be better defining more of its jargon. Same for acronyms.
(3) Apparently software can run "on" a platform or "under" the CLI or CLR. Using both on and under makes no sense -- stick with one or the other. Since software stack is so common, maybe stick with on and drop under.
(4) The description of interpreted software is nothing like what I have long understood. The document seems to claim that interpreted software is much the same as just in time complied software; here there is a new sequence of machine instructions generated (the instructions are not new but the sequence is). In total contrast, my understanding is that interpreted software is having a program, the interpreter, run the user's software simply by directly doing what that software says. It is like a human reading the software and doing what it says -- no new sequence of machine instructions generated. A good example of interpreted software is the scripting language Rexx. I'm fairly sure, and due to computer security certainly hope, that JavaScript software is executed interpretively.
(5) It seems that the document is claiming that for writing programs with .NET it necessary to use Visual Studio. Gads, I HOPE NOT! I just checked and see that I wrote 11 million bytes of .NET software, and I never used Visual Studio. I fully intend never to use Visual Studio. Instead, all my software source code is just simple plain text I type in with my favorite plain text text editor KEDIT -- ALL of it.
NO WAY do I want any usage of Visual Studio. I tried it once: There was a LOT to learn just to consider writing the standard "Hello World". And for the initial project to write Hello World, I got some huge file system tree with maybe 50 million bytes of I don't know what the heck. And when something went wrong, I'd have to work through 50+ million bytes of undocumented I don't know what. I see writing the software for my startup on Visual Studio a threat like my being lashed to a railroad track with freight train at 80 MPH 100 yards away coming right for me. NO WAY.
I just checked: The way I got my .NET code compiled was just run as a command line the .NET VB compiler EXE program
Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319\vbc.exe
Worked fine. Got to "Hello World" right away. Worked fine for 300+ .VB programs. Used TCP/IP, ADO.NET, etc. -- just fine. The compiling on a very cheap AMD processor with a 1.8 GHz clock was really fast. I was a super happy camper, thrilled, and NO Visual Studio in sight.
Debugging? Didn't have any problems a little print tracing didn't easily solve.
Documentation for using .NET objects? Put the tree name on my disk of the relevant Web page I'd downloaded from MSDN in my source code, and with one key stroke my editor would run a macro that did a little parsing and displayed the MSDN Web page. Worked great. No problems.
Now, however, that macro won't work: Somehow Firefox now floods me with popups about "safe mode", "Do you want to ..." and refuses just to display the Web page. So, will have to revise my editor macro to use the old version of Google's Web browser Chrome to display the pages. Firefox messed up, big time, and is no longer qualified to be my "default browser".
A lot of people with famous software have convinced themselves that it is really good NOT to do the work the user is requesting but, instead, to stop the work of the user, refuse to do the work, and put up various windows, popups, video clips, etc., lots and lots of stuff other than the actual work involved. Of course I avoid such software as much as I can. Adobe did that with Acrobat, and now there is NOTHING by Adobe on my computer. Firefox did some of that, and now Firefox is no long my default browser. This popup and "Do you want to ..." stuff is a really good way to get OFF my computers.
THANKS again for the reference. Remarks (1)-(5) aside, the good stuff in
https://dusted.codes/dotnet-basics
.NET Basics
Microsoft, this document is HELPING you a LOT with me. Did I mention, my view is that the biggest problem in my software writing, startup, Microsoft, the US economy, the future of computing, and progress in civilization now is in just one word, DOCUMENTATION that is missing for Microsoft's software. This is not funny or a joke but very serious.
Okay, .NET Foundation, through version 4.x, was for writing software only on Windows, and CORE was for writing software on nearly any operating system. Now at .NET version 5, Foundation and CORE have become the same thing.
Okay. I suspect that with CORE/.NET version 5, my old code written using .NET 2.x and 4.x and ASP.NET and ADO.NET will still run as before, mostly or entirely except maybe a lot faster. Okay.
I would make some suggestions about
.NET Basics
(2) Say that jargon is a word used with a meaning not in a standard dictionary and used with a narrow meaning in a narrow field. Well, the document would be better defining more of its jargon. Same for acronyms.
(3) Apparently software can run "on" a platform or "under" the CLI or CLR. Using both on and under makes no sense -- stick with one or the other. Since software stack is so common, maybe stick with on and drop under.
(4) The description of interpreted software is nothing like what I have long understood. The document seems to claim that interpreted software is much the same as just in time complied software; here there is a new sequence of machine instructions generated (the instructions are not new but the sequence is). In total contrast, my understanding is that interpreted software is having a program, the interpreter, run the user's software simply by directly doing what that software says. It is like a human reading the software and doing what it says -- no new sequence of machine instructions generated. A good example of interpreted software is the scripting language Rexx. I'm fairly sure, and due to computer security certainly hope, that JavaScript software is executed interpretively.
(5) It seems that the document is claiming that for writing programs with .NET it necessary to use Visual Studio. Gads, I HOPE NOT! I just checked and see that I wrote 11 million bytes of .NET software, and I never used Visual Studio. I fully intend never to use Visual Studio. Instead, all my software source code is just simple plain text I type in with my favorite plain text text editor KEDIT -- ALL of it.
NO WAY do I want any usage of Visual Studio. I tried it once: There was a LOT to learn just to consider writing the standard "Hello World". And for the initial project to write Hello World, I got some huge file system tree with maybe 50 million bytes of I don't know what the heck. And when something went wrong, I'd have to work through 50+ million bytes of undocumented I don't know what. I see writing the software for my startup on Visual Studio a threat like my being lashed to a railroad track with freight train at 80 MPH 100 yards away coming right for me. NO WAY.
I just checked: The way I got my .NET code compiled was just run as a command line the .NET VB compiler EXE program
Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319\vbc.exe
Worked fine. Got to "Hello World" right away. Worked fine for 300+ .VB programs. Used TCP/IP, ADO.NET, etc. -- just fine. The compiling on a very cheap AMD processor with a 1.8 GHz clock was really fast. I was a super happy camper, thrilled, and NO Visual Studio in sight.
Debugging? Didn't have any problems a little print tracing didn't easily solve.
Documentation for using .NET objects? Put the tree name on my disk of the relevant Web page I'd downloaded from MSDN in my source code, and with one key stroke my editor would run a macro that did a little parsing and displayed the MSDN Web page. Worked great. No problems.
Now, however, that macro won't work: Somehow Firefox now floods me with popups about "safe mode", "Do you want to ..." and refuses just to display the Web page. So, will have to revise my editor macro to use the old version of Google's Web browser Chrome to display the pages. Firefox messed up, big time, and is no longer qualified to be my "default browser".
A lot of people with famous software have convinced themselves that it is really good NOT to do the work the user is requesting but, instead, to stop the work of the user, refuse to do the work, and put up various windows, popups, video clips, etc., lots and lots of stuff other than the actual work involved. Of course I avoid such software as much as I can. Adobe did that with Acrobat, and now there is NOTHING by Adobe on my computer. Firefox did some of that, and now Firefox is no long my default browser. This popup and "Do you want to ..." stuff is a really good way to get OFF my computers.
THANKS again for the reference. Remarks (1)-(5) aside, the good stuff in
.NET Basics
Talking about dark patterns, here are a couple I've noticed.
In Windows, I'm very careful about NOT signing in to anything Microsoft, unless I have to. I make sure I use a local administrator account instead of a Microsoft account.
Yesterday I had to open Microsoft Edge for something that would only work in Edge, and lo-and-behold, Microsoft had taken my Xbox Game Pass sign-in and applied to Edge, then informed me they are syncing all my browser history to their servers for my benefit..
It's even worse when you activate Office 365. There is a small checkbox at the end which if you don't uncheck, converts your local administrator into your Microsoft account.. Going back to a local administrator account is not an easy task.
In Windows, I'm very careful about NOT signing in to anything Microsoft, unless I have to. I make sure I use a local administrator account instead of a Microsoft account.
Yesterday I had to open Microsoft Edge for something that would only work in Edge, and lo-and-behold, Microsoft had taken my Xbox Game Pass sign-in and applied to Edge, then informed me they are syncing all my browser history to their servers for my benefit..
It's even worse when you activate Office 365. There is a small checkbox at the end which if you don't uncheck, converts your local administrator into your Microsoft account.. Going back to a local administrator account is not an easy task.
> In Windows, I'm very careful about NOT signing in to anything Microsoft
and then you try to look at a picture of your kids but it's a HEIC file from an iPhone so Windows says you have to go to the Store and download Microsoft HEVC decoder which for some reason wasn't bundled with Windows but hey it's just a dollar oh that's nearly free we just need your credit card details and e-mail and make a user account and would you like a free newsletter with that LOOK OVER THERE whileweswitchdefaultbrowsers and check out what else is on sale today
and then you try to look at a picture of your kids but it's a HEIC file from an iPhone so Windows says you have to go to the Store and download Microsoft HEVC decoder which for some reason wasn't bundled with Windows but hey it's just a dollar oh that's nearly free we just need your credit card details and e-mail and make a user account and would you like a free newsletter with that LOOK OVER THERE whileweswitchdefaultbrowsers and check out what else is on sale today
The future of operating systems will be of microtransactions and loot boxes.
- Oh, you want to format your hard drive? Purchase in store :-)
- Checkout our file utilities bundle, 50% off today!
- Congratulations on formatting your hard drive, here is a free loot box!
- Share your hard drive formatting experience with our award winning app instaclip!
- Subscribe to our feed and give us a thumbs up!
- Oh, you want to format your hard drive? Purchase in store :-)
- Checkout our file utilities bundle, 50% off today!
- Congratulations on formatting your hard drive, here is a free loot box!
- Share your hard drive formatting experience with our award winning app instaclip!
- Subscribe to our feed and give us a thumbs up!
- the part that does the actual work is still the same format dialog designed by David Plummer one morning all those years ago
Used to be able to get around this charge by using this link https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/p/hevc-video-extensions-from...
Not sure it’s possible anymore though or what an alternative might be now.
Not sure it’s possible anymore though or what an alternative might be now.
But who needs HEVC, when you have 3D objects.
I do not mind logging into a Microsoft account however the most bizarre situation happened to me very recently.
I will occasionally log into my personal Microsoft account when accessing a Microsoft website when I am on Lunch to work on some personal projects.
At work last week, I was upgraded to Office 365 and as a result I started downloading the latest versions and trying it out in various ways. One of these was upgrading my old OneNote into the latest version (2013 -> 365)
Saturday morning, I booted up my own different PC at home and notice in the "Recommended" section on the Windows 11 start menu "Work 365". This is the name of the OneNote I created at work when I upgraded the document. I do not even have Office on my own PC. Hovering over it would show that it was located in my Works One Drive folder.
I must have been logged into my personal account on OneNote and it somehow meta-data? links it between the work and personal accounts.
I am now in process of removing all traces of my personal account from Windows on my work laptop as the very last thing I want to happen is to see personal files appearing in the Recommended section of my works laptop!
I will occasionally log into my personal Microsoft account when accessing a Microsoft website when I am on Lunch to work on some personal projects.
At work last week, I was upgraded to Office 365 and as a result I started downloading the latest versions and trying it out in various ways. One of these was upgrading my old OneNote into the latest version (2013 -> 365)
Saturday morning, I booted up my own different PC at home and notice in the "Recommended" section on the Windows 11 start menu "Work 365". This is the name of the OneNote I created at work when I upgraded the document. I do not even have Office on my own PC. Hovering over it would show that it was located in my Works One Drive folder.
I must have been logged into my personal account on OneNote and it somehow meta-data? links it between the work and personal accounts.
I am now in process of removing all traces of my personal account from Windows on my work laptop as the very last thing I want to happen is to see personal files appearing in the Recommended section of my works laptop!
Wow that is CREEPY AF and very very scary. This is an instant reason to never use Windows because I'd be so scared that I'd leak personal/private data to other people's computers. The really fucking scary thing is that even we both as power users who understand computers, the internet and how things work are even extremely vulnerable to those hostile dark patterns in Windows that less tech savvy family members would be absolute prey to those Microsoft hyenas. There is NO WAY that anyone in my family will ever use a Windows or Microsoft device. It will be iPhones and Macs for them for the rest of their lives.
I obviously did not find it amusing.
I had my young son with me at the time so I didn't investigate it further. What would have I seen if I clicked the More > button in the Start Menu - would there have been more leakage? Have I logged into my work account on my personal PC at some point? Why did it only show the OneNote file but not any others? What happened if I actually clicked it and tried to open it? Did I simply make a mistake when using multiple accounts in one OS?
There are numerous questions I am asking myself that I don't have an answer for yet.
As far as I can see, I have removed all traces of my personal account off my work laptop now but I am hoping (not sure this is the correct wording in this context) that I can see still the file in my Recommended Section when I get home.
I really would like to know exactly how it can happen.
I had my young son with me at the time so I didn't investigate it further. What would have I seen if I clicked the More > button in the Start Menu - would there have been more leakage? Have I logged into my work account on my personal PC at some point? Why did it only show the OneNote file but not any others? What happened if I actually clicked it and tried to open it? Did I simply make a mistake when using multiple accounts in one OS?
There are numerous questions I am asking myself that I don't have an answer for yet.
As far as I can see, I have removed all traces of my personal account off my work laptop now but I am hoping (not sure this is the correct wording in this context) that I can see still the file in my Recommended Section when I get home.
I really would like to know exactly how it can happen.
If you take info sec seriously that should be immediate reason to ban one note, IMHO. Because if you are not trying to, MS will just spill company data to your private accounts for you!
It’s not just OneNote. They are absolutely confused, as an organisation, about accounts, data privacy and data security.
I can’t, in theory, access my work’s OneDrive from my personal machines, due to a required SSO on top of Microsoft’s, and a VPN requirement. But somehow there are some of my personal files in my work’s OneDrive.
I don’t know how this happened. I can’t log into our VPN as it’s machine-locked (it checks before allowing you on) and therefore OneDrive is supposed to stop me accessing it.
I keep getting emails from Microsoft about an Azure Enterprise agreement that they have decided I have power over, along with a group of people from a random company that I’m not related to in any way. Someone did a typo and included me by accident? Not likely as I have an email address that’s difficult to accidentally use via typo.
Microsoft are taking people’s responses to the group as authorised instructions as to what to do with their enterprise agreement. I’ve responded several times and said I am not related but they keep emailing about it. I know a lot about that company’s people, structure and agreements with Microsoft now!
I can’t, in theory, access my work’s OneDrive from my personal machines, due to a required SSO on top of Microsoft’s, and a VPN requirement. But somehow there are some of my personal files in my work’s OneDrive.
I don’t know how this happened. I can’t log into our VPN as it’s machine-locked (it checks before allowing you on) and therefore OneDrive is supposed to stop me accessing it.
I keep getting emails from Microsoft about an Azure Enterprise agreement that they have decided I have power over, along with a group of people from a random company that I’m not related to in any way. Someone did a typo and included me by accident? Not likely as I have an email address that’s difficult to accidentally use via typo.
Microsoft are taking people’s responses to the group as authorised instructions as to what to do with their enterprise agreement. I’ve responded several times and said I am not related but they keep emailing about it. I know a lot about that company’s people, structure and agreements with Microsoft now!
"emails from Microsoft about an Azure Enterprise agreement" == phishing
They're really not. It's a real person at Microsoft, and they don't know how to fix it.
> It's even worse when you activate Office 365. There is a small checkbox at the end which if you don't uncheck, converts your local administrator into your Microsoft account.. Going back to a local administrator account is not an easy task.
I'm not even sure it's possible, I've tried multiple approaches but gave up after almost having to do a clean install.
Now I have to deal with an accountname that contains multiple characters that make WSL interactions with the windows paths a game of Russian roulette with shell quoting bullets.
I'm not even sure it's possible, I've tried multiple approaches but gave up after almost having to do a clean install.
Now I have to deal with an accountname that contains multiple characters that make WSL interactions with the windows paths a game of Russian roulette with shell quoting bullets.
Oh, I installed two OSes last year: Ubuntu on my then daily driver (it still is my private one) and a clean Windows ten on my son's laptop. That used to be my old back-up and had my old company account on it, in addition to his school teams account. I tried to convert it to a local admin and throw his educational MS Office license on it. It ended with buying a second market Win10 license (I bought two, only one worked) and a clean, new install. Everything else just failed. I'll never use a MS Account for anything again.
That expends to MS Office subscriptions as well. I once bought one through (stupid, I know) GoDaddy as an extension to my domain mail service. It never worked, not once. I still paid for it, so. The user account didn't even exist on MS's end. Only way to get rid of it was to cancel the credit card behind it. MS stopped bothering me after two months of unpaid subscriptions...
That expends to MS Office subscriptions as well. I once bought one through (stupid, I know) GoDaddy as an extension to my domain mail service. It never worked, not once. I still paid for it, so. The user account didn't even exist on MS's end. Only way to get rid of it was to cancel the credit card behind it. MS stopped bothering me after two months of unpaid subscriptions...
> Now I have to deal with an accountname that contains multiple characters that make WSL interactions with the windows paths a game of Russian roulette with shell quoting bullets.
Really? For me, when I install Windows with a Microsoft account, it makes my username just something like "nyusz" rather than "nyuszika7h".
Really? For me, when I install Windows with a Microsoft account, it makes my username just something like "nyusz" rather than "nyuszika7h".
Can't you just make a new local admin account and delete all traces of the other account, including in the registry?
The word “just” is doing some heavy lifting there…
So heavy I abandoned and went for a clean install and new Win10 license. Turned it was faster and easier.
29athrowaway(2)
Looks like switching to linux when win 7 support ended was the right move.
All my games may randomly freeze for no discernible reason, but at least I don't have to deal with that BS.
All my games may randomly freeze for no discernible reason, but at least I don't have to deal with that BS.
Really? I made the same move (or at least finished it 100%) at the same time, and that's not a problem I've ever seen.
Some (surprisingly few, actually) don't perform well under Wine/Proton, or at all, but random freezing I've never seen. And certainly not all of my games.
Some (surprisingly few, actually) don't perform well under Wine/Proton, or at all, but random freezing I've never seen. And certainly not all of my games.
But it’s linux, so one obscure setting in a config file or slightly different hardware can make all the difference. I say this as a linux user since WinXP.
The whole OS market is pretty rough right now.
The whole OS market is pretty rough right now.
> The whole OS market is pretty rough right now.
It's like this since it became clear smartphones were going to become the bigger market, so around 2012 or so.
Investment into desktop everything went down: OSes, apps, games, etc.
Heck, you can see this even for Open Source desktop stuff. There was a flurry of releases of cross platform Open Source software around 2009 or so: KDE4, better support for GTK on Windows, etc. All of that has slowed down or frozen in time.
Mobile has sucked all the money and hype from desktop development.
It's like this since it became clear smartphones were going to become the bigger market, so around 2012 or so.
Investment into desktop everything went down: OSes, apps, games, etc.
Heck, you can see this even for Open Source desktop stuff. There was a flurry of releases of cross platform Open Source software around 2009 or so: KDE4, better support for GTK on Windows, etc. All of that has slowed down or frozen in time.
Mobile has sucked all the money and hype from desktop development.
> The whole OS market is pretty rough right now.
This is my feeling over the past few years. No OS is in a great spot. But I have hopes for Linux being better supported with Valve using it on the Steam Deck. (Not the highest hopes, but more hope than I used to have)
This is my feeling over the past few years. No OS is in a great spot. But I have hopes for Linux being better supported with Valve using it on the Steam Deck. (Not the highest hopes, but more hope than I used to have)
I don't agree. KDE in particular feels more well rounded than ever before. I use it on FreeBSD but I use Linux on servers and I'm also very happy with that.
Windows 10 is stable for me too though I was hit with the eTPM stutter bug (I use my Windows box exclusively for gaming, in particular VR which I didn't feel like figuring out in proton). But the windows dark patterns are surely there and I hate them. But as it's only my gaming machine I can deal with it.
And Mac... Well I moved away from it because Apple is locking down too much and I've come to hate opinionated software. Still they seem to be doing nice things with M1..
Windows 10 is stable for me too though I was hit with the eTPM stutter bug (I use my Windows box exclusively for gaming, in particular VR which I didn't feel like figuring out in proton). But the windows dark patterns are surely there and I hate them. But as it's only my gaming machine I can deal with it.
And Mac... Well I moved away from it because Apple is locking down too much and I've come to hate opinionated software. Still they seem to be doing nice things with M1..
I recently got Apex Legends working and it's running perfectly at 144 fps in 2k on a 1080 ti.
I've also played FFXIV and Path of Exile extensively in Linux.
The only thing left is Adobe products which is honestly a matter of time. Just really takes hammering out some market share until Adobe relents.
A lot of the best kernel, driver, and gui shell improvements have only really hit their stride in the past 24 months.
Things are coming together rapidly.
I've also played FFXIV and Path of Exile extensively in Linux.
The only thing left is Adobe products which is honestly a matter of time. Just really takes hammering out some market share until Adobe relents.
A lot of the best kernel, driver, and gui shell improvements have only really hit their stride in the past 24 months.
Things are coming together rapidly.
> A lot of the best kernel, driver, and gui shell improvements have only really hit their stride in the past 24 months.
Could you elaborate on that?
I've been using desktop Linux almost exclusively for the past 24 years (ouch!), and recent years seem pretty average to me. Things work great, most of the time, like always.
Unless you're talking about gaming. I'm not a gamer (or i wouldn't be such a long time Linux user) but I hear there's enormous progress on that front.
Could you elaborate on that?
I've been using desktop Linux almost exclusively for the past 24 years (ouch!), and recent years seem pretty average to me. Things work great, most of the time, like always.
Unless you're talking about gaming. I'm not a gamer (or i wouldn't be such a long time Linux user) but I hear there's enormous progress on that front.
Gaming was what held me back from switching for decades. Steam is doing a great job on that front, most recent (like in max 5 years old) games in my library work like a charm under Ubuntu. And that includes all AAA games. Old games are harder as those are, understandably, not on top of the priority list to convert to Linux. For those, and some rarely used other stuff I haven't bothered to figure out Linux alternatives for, I still use Windows.
If Linux based gaming continues on the current trajectory, I could imagine a world in which a great chunk of the consumer market switches from Windows to Linux.
If Linux based gaming continues on the current trajectory, I could imagine a world in which a great chunk of the consumer market switches from Windows to Linux.
KDE on FreeBSD and Linux on servers seems an interesting choice, what was it that brought you to FreeBSD on desktop if you were using Linux on server?
Mainly that I like the concept of FreeBSD. It's just one OS, has excellent documentation. Some good tech like jails, zfs on root etc.
Apparently it's not great at WiFi but I don't use that on my main driver (NUC).
On Linux I use docker a lot, and while FreeBSD has its excellent jails, it doesn't have the whole ecosystem around them. So that's why I use Linux on the server side more.
Apparently it's not great at WiFi but I don't use that on my main driver (NUC).
On Linux I use docker a lot, and while FreeBSD has its excellent jails, it doesn't have the whole ecosystem around them. So that's why I use Linux on the server side more.
I don't even use a desktop environment. Gonna be using a window manager for ever. Most of everything is run on the command line anyway.
How do you browse the Internet then?
Seamonkey, Firefox, etc. You do not need a desktop environment to run a webbrowser.
> How do you browse the Internet then?
I assume by
> using a window manager for ever
I've used WindowMaker as a Window manager for decades. Only recently did I decide to switch to Mate because I wanted a taskbar at the bottom with useful things like applets to show and switch Wifi/network, volume control and often-used icons/launchers.
TBH, if I could get things like tint2 and yabar working with the mate applets, I'd probably switch back to WindowMaker in a heartbeat.
I assume by
> using a window manager for ever
I've used WindowMaker as a Window manager for decades. Only recently did I decide to switch to Mate because I wanted a taskbar at the bottom with useful things like applets to show and switch Wifi/network, volume control and often-used icons/launchers.
TBH, if I could get things like tint2 and yabar working with the mate applets, I'd probably switch back to WindowMaker in a heartbeat.
FWIW: most systray applets work with any of WindowMaker's dockapp systrays, and there are a few dockapps (wmappl, wmbutton) that allow you a slightly more compact often-used icons/launcher thing. Mate panel applets do need the Mate panel of course but you can generally find equivalents for just about anything.
I don't run Linux anymore (not natively, for everyday use, in any case) -- like most people in this thread I also think the desktop is a shitshow these days but it's a particularly bad shitshow in Linux, and I was using Linux in 2003 so I know what a shitshow looks like. But when I do still need to touch a Linux machine, WindowMaker is still my WM of choice. It's really good.
I don't run Linux anymore (not natively, for everyday use, in any case) -- like most people in this thread I also think the desktop is a shitshow these days but it's a particularly bad shitshow in Linux, and I was using Linux in 2003 so I know what a shitshow looks like. But when I do still need to touch a Linux machine, WindowMaker is still my WM of choice. It's really good.
use Fluxbox, you could set some applets with standalone software.
Pnmixer for Pulseaudio, NM-applet/connman...
Pnmixer for Pulseaudio, NM-applet/connman...
You can use normal applications in a window manager. Window manager ≠ terminal
Lynx? Lynx still works for a lot of sites I frequent.
you can start programs with just X. i use simple WMs but have put kodi in its own dedicated session. its kind of like kiosk mode.
I dropped Windows for Linux with XP. I use Linux for all my computing needs, except a few video games that don't like Wine. For those, I do have a separate Windows machine that gets turned on to play those games (like a console), and turned off when I stop. Both machines are built desktops.
I never use the Windows box for anything else. No files, no coding, no internet browsing, no music, etc. No cameras, microphones, bluetooth adapters, etc. are installed. I turn that thing on every few weeks or so.
This has worked well, and is a compromise with which I can live. Try it, it's blissful!
I never use the Windows box for anything else. No files, no coding, no internet browsing, no music, etc. No cameras, microphones, bluetooth adapters, etc. are installed. I turn that thing on every few weeks or so.
This has worked well, and is a compromise with which I can live. Try it, it's blissful!
I use macOS + Windows + Pop!_OS (Ubuntu-based) on a daily basis and they're all better or worse depending on the task at hand. They're all useable but imperfect. For me, Windows is for gaming and some music production stuff, macOS is my work laptop and dev environment, and Ubuntu is for most other things like personal use, but also my desktop dev environment.
Testing Windows stuff on an M1 Mac with Parallels doesn't work very well today (I have hope that we'll get there soon). Windows VMs work a lot better on my Ubuntu desktop, but a lot of our dev tools have mostly macOS users, so getting them to work with Ubuntu takes a bit of massaging at times. macOS is hard / unsupported to virtualize, so I basically have to use macOS when developing macOS software.
If we could run macOS as a VM, I'd choose Ubuntu / Pop!_OS for most things.
Testing Windows stuff on an M1 Mac with Parallels doesn't work very well today (I have hope that we'll get there soon). Windows VMs work a lot better on my Ubuntu desktop, but a lot of our dev tools have mostly macOS users, so getting them to work with Ubuntu takes a bit of massaging at times. macOS is hard / unsupported to virtualize, so I basically have to use macOS when developing macOS software.
If we could run macOS as a VM, I'd choose Ubuntu / Pop!_OS for most things.
OS X virtualization is well supported by Parallels if you're on a Mac and are willing to pay for software (it's a just a few clicks via the GUI to set up and they offer a trial). I haven't tried it under windows, but it's still eminently possible.
Eg https://kb.parallels.com/en/125105 and https://osxdaily.com/2021/07/15/how-install-macos-virtualbox...
Eg https://kb.parallels.com/en/125105 and https://osxdaily.com/2021/07/15/how-install-macos-virtualbox...
You can run macOS under VMWare Workstation Player on Linux using an unlocker. If you combine it with a serial from an actual mac you own, but no longer use, you can get iMessage working also.
[deleted]
Projects like Proton and Lutris are making it so that most of the configuration work is encapsulated in installation scripts that make most of that grinding go away.
Unless you care about gaming MacOS has been rock solid for at least a decade. For what it is worth I am no mac fanboy, I am typing this to you on a windows 10 computer in my shop(that I use for gaming, among other things).
I've got a Mac at work and I hate it with passion. I now use my own linux Laptop instead. There is no del key, no home, ctrl and alt are swapped in some aplications and not the others. Login screeen does not remember the language and animations come back after every update even when I explicitly disable them. Muscle memory from other 99% computers I use doesn't work and most of the games don't. I feel like mac os is in contempt of me and I really hate it when I have to use it for mandatory tasks. Mac doesnt fit for me at all, I use Linux for Production and Windows for games
> no del key
Ctrl+d, like in emacs
> no home
Ctrl+a. Also: Ctrl+e for end-of-line. Like in emacs. Also Ctrl+fbpn.
Works best with CapsLock->Control, which is a native GUI option, not something you have to install/CLI for (linux) or something you have to registry hack (windows). I really miss these on Windows and Linux, though not enough to fight the native layout. It's a rougher fight than you might imagine, though.
> Login screeen does not remember the language
It does for me, but more importantly: it shows it. Windows likes to swap the keyboard layout out from under me and doesn't show it. Mix with a 3-strikes-you're-locked-out policy at work, and it turns into pain.
> animations come back after every update
Yeah, that's fair.
> Muscle memory
That's not.
> I feel like mac os is in contempt of me
I feel like windows is actively malicious towards me and linux desktop doesn't care enough about me to do even minimum viable bugfixing. It's definitely a "pick your poison" situation.
Ctrl+d, like in emacs
> no home
Ctrl+a. Also: Ctrl+e for end-of-line. Like in emacs. Also Ctrl+fbpn.
Works best with CapsLock->Control, which is a native GUI option, not something you have to install/CLI for (linux) or something you have to registry hack (windows). I really miss these on Windows and Linux, though not enough to fight the native layout. It's a rougher fight than you might imagine, though.
> Login screeen does not remember the language
It does for me, but more importantly: it shows it. Windows likes to swap the keyboard layout out from under me and doesn't show it. Mix with a 3-strikes-you're-locked-out policy at work, and it turns into pain.
> animations come back after every update
Yeah, that's fair.
> Muscle memory
That's not.
> I feel like mac os is in contempt of me
I feel like windows is actively malicious towards me and linux desktop doesn't care enough about me to do even minimum viable bugfixing. It's definitely a "pick your poison" situation.
The last time I had to use MacOS regularly, the thing that killed it for me was the lack of a tiling window manager.
I use xmonad in Ubuntu and I haven't dragged a window on my personal laptop in years. Not only was that option missing on MacOS, the underlying OS abstractions actually made it impractical to build the last time I checked; windows were owned by the application, there was no language to move another application's windows except asking the application to move its own, and doing that required the application to be frontmost. So tiling was a context-switch morass and a bad UX.
However, it appears the Accessibility Manager may since have grown enough feature hooks to support what I want, and https://github.com/ianyh/Amethyst may do the job. I'll have to test it the next time I have my hands on a MacBook of some flavor.
I use xmonad in Ubuntu and I haven't dragged a window on my personal laptop in years. Not only was that option missing on MacOS, the underlying OS abstractions actually made it impractical to build the last time I checked; windows were owned by the application, there was no language to move another application's windows except asking the application to move its own, and doing that required the application to be frontmost. So tiling was a context-switch morass and a bad UX.
However, it appears the Accessibility Manager may since have grown enough feature hooks to support what I want, and https://github.com/ianyh/Amethyst may do the job. I'll have to test it the next time I have my hands on a MacBook of some flavor.
Delete forward is Fn + delete, Home is Fn + up. It's not a specific key, obviously, but all those keys don't fit on a laptop. However, if you plug in your own keyboard I'm sure they'll be recognized.
My experience is that the only apps that use actual Ctrl on macOS are GTK apps, like Inkscape, and terminal apps (because Ctrl-C should be quite different from activating the menu item corresponding to the Cmd-C shortcut). Unfortunately, if you use non-native apps, you're going to get a non-native experience.
My experience is that the only apps that use actual Ctrl on macOS are GTK apps, like Inkscape, and terminal apps (because Ctrl-C should be quite different from activating the menu item corresponding to the Cmd-C shortcut). Unfortunately, if you use non-native apps, you're going to get a non-native experience.
Yeah, this. Macos is my daily driver and it does a good job of staying out of my way.
I recently got a windows pc just for gaming, and god DAMN it's annoying. Even worse than Vista. Nothing is consistent anymore and everything is always trying to grab my attention for irrelevant shit. What the hell happened :/
I recently got a windows pc just for gaming, and god DAMN it's annoying. Even worse than Vista. Nothing is consistent anymore and everything is always trying to grab my attention for irrelevant shit. What the hell happened :/
As a long time Windows user, I highly recommend using this to turn off the useless crap.
https://github.com/Disassembler0/Win10-Initial-Setup-Script
https://github.com/Disassembler0/Win10-Initial-Setup-Script
In my experience, messing with Windows in this manner (especially with an unmaintained script as this one is) results in a broken installation after enough updates. I just let my Windows partition do whatever the hell it wants, and keep my use of it to absolutely minimal levels.
I always used that too.
However, it's ironic that the author has now given up on Windows, for the problems the script attempts to solve.
However, it's ironic that the author has now given up on Windows, for the problems the script attempts to solve.
Macos is my daily driver and it does a good job of staying out of my way.
As a long time Windows and Linux user who recently got a MacBook Pro, I find the UI incredibly weird and confusing compared to what I'm used to.
The hardware is however more than good enough that I'm willing to put up with MacOS until I get used to it.
As a long time Windows and Linux user who recently got a MacBook Pro, I find the UI incredibly weird and confusing compared to what I'm used to.
The hardware is however more than good enough that I'm willing to put up with MacOS until I get used to it.
Yeah, it does take some getting used to. It's nice having a real shell though, and not have to worry about Windows Subsystem for Linux to get work done.
As someone who grew up with MS-DOS, Windows used to be really good until Microsoft started getting desperate and started shoving crapware down your throat... ads for Office, preinstalled Teams that starts up by itself, Skype, stupid Defender scans, nonstop UAC warnings, won't let you use a password instead of a PIN... all these dumb, user-hostile decisions. Zero respect for their users.
Apple has a bit of that now (iCloud logins, OS level notifications, bundled apps) but not quite as bad.
If Linux had Adobe Suite and MS Office I'd probably switch in a heartbeat. Need those to collaborate with other non-devs in the office.
As someone who grew up with MS-DOS, Windows used to be really good until Microsoft started getting desperate and started shoving crapware down your throat... ads for Office, preinstalled Teams that starts up by itself, Skype, stupid Defender scans, nonstop UAC warnings, won't let you use a password instead of a PIN... all these dumb, user-hostile decisions. Zero respect for their users.
Apple has a bit of that now (iCloud logins, OS level notifications, bundled apps) but not quite as bad.
If Linux had Adobe Suite and MS Office I'd probably switch in a heartbeat. Need those to collaborate with other non-devs in the office.
In what way macOS being rock solid can help Windows users having issues such as those described in the article?
It's all games, both proton and native, on a specific computer. The issue didn't occur for a long time when I first installed, so I'm pretty sure its a software/config problem which a reinstall would fix. I just haven't gotten around to it. Probably a nvidia driver problem tbh (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2lhwb_OckQ)
I also made the move to 100% Linux rather than move to Windows 8. Initially some games had issues but things gradually improved over time.
Seems like luck of the draw. I’ve had the same random freezing issues
I’m desperately wishing for Valve to have success with the Deck so that Linux gets better attention from game devs. The last Windows machine in my environment is exclusively for PC games, and I honestly can’t wait to install Linux over it.
Just start now. Think of unsupported games as you think of games for Nintendo and Sony machines. Your financial support of gaming on Linux will encourage developers to support it. Waiting just keeps the status quo.
I did this a few years ago with the same mindset, thinking I’d still regularly boot into Windows, but I haven’t done so in probably over a year. I was surprised at how little I missed the games that don’t run (well or at all) on Linux—probably because there are so many good options these days.
At this point I’m thinking of deleting my Windows partition altogether.
At this point I’m thinking of deleting my Windows partition altogether.
Yeah, if you ever REALLY need one you can just run it in an emulator. In 20 years, I've never REALLY needed it.
I made Kubuntu my main OS a long time ago, and I play a lot of (thanks to Valve, Steam, Wine and Proton...) games, and I never experienced a game freezing. My experience it's so good, that I only touch Windows to play Fornite.
The only annoying bug/problem that I have actually, it's that Dolphin could have a erratic behavior if I had mounted a SMB folder via an VPN and I end the VPN before un-mounting the SMB folder.
The only annoying bug/problem that I have actually, it's that Dolphin could have a erratic behavior if I had mounted a SMB folder via an VPN and I end the VPN before un-mounting the SMB folder.
> All my games may randomly freeze for no discernible reason,
All?
My experience is that 90% work fine, 9% have weirdness, (for instance, voices in Skyrim are out of sync with mouth movements) and 1% of them have game breaking bugs.
All?
My experience is that 90% work fine, 9% have weirdness, (for instance, voices in Skyrim are out of sync with mouth movements) and 1% of them have game breaking bugs.
Yeah, I have the experience as OP. Every single game I play on Linux has random hitches for seconds at a time.
Can you keep an htop running by chance? It would be very helpful to see if CPU is maxxing out when the hitches happen, or if the swap file is growing, etc.
Any time it happens to me, it's usually low resources because of something. Most often some chrome tab (or 3) that are going crazy. I also discovered that one of the apps that I thought was using hardware acceleration actually wasn't. The CPU usage made it pretty clear that the CPU was doing a ton of work.
Any time it happens to me, it's usually low resources because of something. Most often some chrome tab (or 3) that are going crazy. I also discovered that one of the apps that I thought was using hardware acceleration actually wasn't. The CPU usage made it pretty clear that the CPU was doing a ton of work.
I can’t wait for Proton to get better so I can ditch Windows for good. I know it’s already really good and it will run for most of the game I play, but I do like to dabble in competitive online or AAA once in a while :(
Proton is great, anticheat work fine with it. It's up to the producers of AAA games to enable it now.
I've probably played ~15-20 games on wine now and literally all have worked with, at most, minimal tweaking (Changing the proton version). I mostly play single player or indie multiplayer so I haven't had to deal with the anti cheat.
Only game that hasn't worked with Proton is Oneshot and its kina understandable considering the games context... It did have a linux version that mostly works out of the box though!
Only game that hasn't worked with Proton is Oneshot and its kina understandable considering the games context... It did have a linux version that mostly works out of the box though!
Proton and VR are currently not happy bedfellows.
I've had the freezes happen when my nvidia drivers weren't properly installed and when the kernel wasn't using the nvidia DKMS modules. glxgears should run super fast at a consistent framerate. Check out https://gist.github.com/wangg12/c69b56272eaeed1aba9515d19f55...
A update is needed as most are on 20.04
Stayed on Win7 in hopes MS would get their sh*t figured out by now. Looks increasingly like my next PC will need to be Linux and some VM's.
>All my games may randomly freeze for no discernible reason,
Could be a GPU thermal issue, happens to me with old games that have no FPS limit, then the GPU does so much work that it hangs for some reason(Nvidia GT970), I am not sure if is my GPU broken/dusty, the driver bugged or Xorg, Windows users only see a game crash not a full system crash.
Could be a GPU thermal issue, happens to me with old games that have no FPS limit, then the GPU does so much work that it hangs for some reason(Nvidia GT970), I am not sure if is my GPU broken/dusty, the driver bugged or Xorg, Windows users only see a game crash not a full system crash.
I do this switch 13 years ago just before 7 was released to macOS.
So mine last Windows was XP.
So mine last Windows was XP.
That whole thing with Edge has got to be the biggest information heist in the history of the software industry. Everyone on Windows basically woke up one morning and Microsoft was like, greetings, we've backed up your hard drive to our cloud. Always do your work in a terminal folks!
Yesterday I had to open Microsoft Edge for something that would only work in Edge, and lo-and-behold, Microsoft had taken my Xbox Game Pass sign-in and applied to Edge, then informed me they are syncing all my browser history to their servers for my benefit..
I'm not sure how that sort of behaviour isn't a clear violation of all kinds of privacy laws in 2022.
I'm not sure how that sort of behaviour isn't a clear violation of all kinds of privacy laws in 2022.
I'm sure it was specified somewhere in the EULA that you were forced to agree to long ago while installing the OS. It's been a while since I've looked at it too, but I believe there's a clause in there that also permits them to change it at any time without telling you.
One of the few really good things about some modern privacy laws is that this kind of defence carries almost zero weight. You don't get to do scummy things and then claim that the user "consented" because of some small print on page 50 of some document no-one ever reads before clicking the button they have to click in order to use the software they just paid for.
But the problem is that in practice I still don’t see those laws being enforced in any meaningful manner. Case in point, Microsoft is doing this - they’re not stupid, they’ve reviewed the legal implications that and rightfully decided that they’ll benefit more than the penalty from enforcement if it ever happens. Same with Google, Facebook, etc.
It's funny how quickly they forget the lessons of https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-21684329 and https://www.computerworld.com/article/2564087/european-commi... .
I guess we need higher fines to get the message across.
I guess we need higher fines to get the message across.
They (Microsoft, Google, Facebook, Apple, etc.) do not care about one payment of a couple of milions dollars.
Do you understand that the potential fines for violations under some of the recent laws (notably the GDPR) have a few extra zeroes on that? The limiting factor at the moment seems to be a lack of resources for the regulators that are responsible for enforcing privacy rules. Obviously a big tech firm facing a fine that could run to hundreds of millions is like to exhaust their legal avenues for challenging it before handing over the cash. It's going to take time and money from the regulator's side to deal with those challenges before any big penalties get applied effectively.
> Do you understand that the potential fines for violations under some of the recent laws (notably the GDPR) have a few extra zeroes on that?
That's been the case for 4 years now, none of these fines have occurred. The total amount of fines across all companies over those 4 years is barely above 1Bn.
> The limiting factor at the moment seems to be a lack of resources for the regulators that are responsible for enforcing privacy rules
Not just resources but also willingness. I have the feeling that nobody actually wants to enforce this and campaigning for doing so is a politically-risky move, as not only does your campaign rely on the same companies that would be fined, but those companies now control the majority of humanity's social fabric and can trivially restrict even organic sharing of information/links about your campaign.
Worse: in the UK, there's been news about actually weakening the GDPR, based on the Culture Secretary being stupid (or having financial incentives for doing so) and actually believing the tech industry's vilification of the GDPR. Hint: if an industry making a huge chunk of its profit based on non-consensual data collection complains about data protection laws, it means the laws are actually working as designed. Most likely, this insanity will also go ahead, if it didn't already.
That's been the case for 4 years now, none of these fines have occurred. The total amount of fines across all companies over those 4 years is barely above 1Bn.
> The limiting factor at the moment seems to be a lack of resources for the regulators that are responsible for enforcing privacy rules
Not just resources but also willingness. I have the feeling that nobody actually wants to enforce this and campaigning for doing so is a politically-risky move, as not only does your campaign rely on the same companies that would be fined, but those companies now control the majority of humanity's social fabric and can trivially restrict even organic sharing of information/links about your campaign.
Worse: in the UK, there's been news about actually weakening the GDPR, based on the Culture Secretary being stupid (or having financial incentives for doing so) and actually believing the tech industry's vilification of the GDPR. Hint: if an industry making a huge chunk of its profit based on non-consensual data collection complains about data protection laws, it means the laws are actually working as designed. Most likely, this insanity will also go ahead, if it didn't already.
That's been the case for 4 years now, none of these fines have occurred.
The largest fines so far have been approaching 9 figures, far more than the "couple of million" in the comment I replied to above.
That's not pocket change even for a multinational and of course there has to be reasonable due process before handing out that kind of penalty. If anything I'd say the fact that several eight-figure penalties have already been handed down is reassuring.
I have the feeling that nobody actually wants to enforce this
I'm genuinely curious about how you formed that impression. Here in the UK our data protection regulators have been fairly consistent in their public views on these issues under multiple Information Commissioners now and have handed down some significant penalties, so I don't really buy the conspiracy theories about corruption and so on.
Worse: in the UK, there's been news about actually weakening the GDPR, based on the Culture Secretary being stupid (or having financial incentives for doing so) and actually believing the tech industry's vilification of the GDPR.
As someone who is both a strong proponent of privacy safeguards and involved in running businesses that actually have to comply with the GDPR, I have very mixed feelings about this.
On one hand I don't like the idea of weakening important privacy protections and I have no faith whatsoever in the competence of the current government here to understand the technical or social implications of these policies.
On the other hand I also don't think much of the GDPR as written. It's full of ambiguity and it is unnecessarily difficult for a good actor to comply with it, particularly smaller organisations that don't have dedicated staff to deal with this kind of admin and also don't have any interest in doing things with personal data that most of us here probably wouldn't like. People like to focus on a tiny number of points that we'd probably agree are positive steps or at least well-intentioned, but the GDPR is roughly a hundred pages long and that's before you include supporting materials like official guidance on interpretation from all the different regulators. There are a lot of small and a few big problems in the rest of those pages once you look past the headlines. Not coincidentally those areas also tend to leave loopholes that some bad actors are relying on to escape the trap.
The largest fines so far have been approaching 9 figures, far more than the "couple of million" in the comment I replied to above.
That's not pocket change even for a multinational and of course there has to be reasonable due process before handing out that kind of penalty. If anything I'd say the fact that several eight-figure penalties have already been handed down is reassuring.
I have the feeling that nobody actually wants to enforce this
I'm genuinely curious about how you formed that impression. Here in the UK our data protection regulators have been fairly consistent in their public views on these issues under multiple Information Commissioners now and have handed down some significant penalties, so I don't really buy the conspiracy theories about corruption and so on.
Worse: in the UK, there's been news about actually weakening the GDPR, based on the Culture Secretary being stupid (or having financial incentives for doing so) and actually believing the tech industry's vilification of the GDPR.
As someone who is both a strong proponent of privacy safeguards and involved in running businesses that actually have to comply with the GDPR, I have very mixed feelings about this.
On one hand I don't like the idea of weakening important privacy protections and I have no faith whatsoever in the competence of the current government here to understand the technical or social implications of these policies.
On the other hand I also don't think much of the GDPR as written. It's full of ambiguity and it is unnecessarily difficult for a good actor to comply with it, particularly smaller organisations that don't have dedicated staff to deal with this kind of admin and also don't have any interest in doing things with personal data that most of us here probably wouldn't like. People like to focus on a tiny number of points that we'd probably agree are positive steps or at least well-intentioned, but the GDPR is roughly a hundred pages long and that's before you include supporting materials like official guidance on interpretation from all the different regulators. There are a lot of small and a few big problems in the rest of those pages once you look past the headlines. Not coincidentally those areas also tend to leave loopholes that some bad actors are relying on to escape the trap.
I don't have first-hand experience with other DPAs so I can't comment on those, though the fact that Facebook and Google are still around and still have business presences in most EU countries suggest they aren't much better.
I have multiple experiences dealing with the UK one, spending unreasonable amounts of time raising complaints for obvious breaches of the GDPR with no outcome. I've summarized my experience here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30662905
Not to mention, this high-profile incident which they are themselves proud enough to announce on their own website: https://ico.org.uk/about-the-ico/news-and-events/news-and-bl... - so you've got a company whose entire business is to manage people's personal data and is large enough to have the resources to understand & comply with the regulation, and you caught them red-handed misusing data that people outright had no choice in giving up (I don't know any bank that allows opting out of CRA reporting even if you never actually intend to take out credit) for a purpose that's definitely not in the data subjects' best interests, and the outcome is a letter?
What message do you think the above sends? To me it sends that breaching the GDPR absolutely does pay and you should absolutely do it at least once because even getting caught brazenly breaching it (considering the size & resources of said companies, number of people impacted and the fact people had literally no choice) will lead to just politely being asked to stop with no monetary penalty nor having to compensate the affected users.
I have multiple experiences dealing with the UK one, spending unreasonable amounts of time raising complaints for obvious breaches of the GDPR with no outcome. I've summarized my experience here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30662905
Not to mention, this high-profile incident which they are themselves proud enough to announce on their own website: https://ico.org.uk/about-the-ico/news-and-events/news-and-bl... - so you've got a company whose entire business is to manage people's personal data and is large enough to have the resources to understand & comply with the regulation, and you caught them red-handed misusing data that people outright had no choice in giving up (I don't know any bank that allows opting out of CRA reporting even if you never actually intend to take out credit) for a purpose that's definitely not in the data subjects' best interests, and the outcome is a letter?
What message do you think the above sends? To me it sends that breaching the GDPR absolutely does pay and you should absolutely do it at least once because even getting caught brazenly breaching it (considering the size & resources of said companies, number of people impacted and the fact people had literally no choice) will lead to just politely being asked to stop with no monetary penalty nor having to compensate the affected users.
They're starting to be enforced but obviously the regulators particularly in Europe are underfunded and there are a lot of bad actors to chase. I imagine Facebook and Google both rate higher than Microsoft for now. That doesn't mean there won't be significant penalties later, particularly as governments come to realise how lucrative penalising these big tech firms can be under the rules they've created for themselves.
And there is also cortuption.
> You don't get to do [...]
The response to every legal argument is "yes, you do" as long as you have enough money. Lo and behold, Microsoft is swimming in it.
The response to every legal argument is "yes, you do" as long as you have enough money. Lo and behold, Microsoft is swimming in it.
Not only do they have enough money to begin with, but they're earning way more from this than any fine they can realistically expect (if a fine ever comes, that is).
Just because a criminal hasn't been caught and sentenced doesn't mean they didn't commit the crime
It gets more complicated than that. Imagine having to sign into the machine with a work (AAD) account. Potentially, your machine can be taken over and bound to AAD policies operated by IT at the same time it's connected to a personal account. Very messy.
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Wow, I feel like that goes beyond a dark pattern and strays into unconsensual abuse (excuse the truism). I feel like a dark pattern persuades and tricks you into doing something, but won't outright do something without your consent. Reminds me of when Linked In did that thing where it sent unsolicited emails after getting access to your address book.
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Maybe I am being silly about it but Minecraft just migrated from mojang accounts to MS accounts. I am worried they are going to pull these sort of hijinks with that.
What is wrong with you?
You've got to admire Microsoft's support of open source software. They're doing their best to push users to Linux! By making their UI as ugly and difficult to use as possible so that users don't feel too much of a bump in usability when they try Linux.
I'm sure MS can get the job done and kill off their OS with just a few more years of obnoxious bullshit forcefully shoved into their operating system!
I'm sure MS can get the job done and kill off their OS with just a few more years of obnoxious bullshit forcefully shoved into their operating system!
Agreed. Windows 11 and macOS 12 finally gave me the kick necessary to switch to Linux full-time (Lenovo Carbon X1).
macOS 12 cannot maintain a USB 2.0 connection. Not by dongle. Not by dock. Not by monitor. Not with 3rd party. Not with Apple-approved hardware. No way, no how. This is known, reported and totally Apple's fault (some of the earlier macOS 11 builds work fine). And this is the standard problem with Apple, "It just works--until it doesn't. If it doesn't, sucks to be you." I'm done with that.
Windows 10 was already bad enough with "Please, sir, can I have some compute?" with "I say thee NAY! I will now upgrade for the next 40 minutes. Hah!" Add in even more telemetry and inconsistency and I just gave up.
The whole point of Windows and macOS was to NOT have to dork with my OS and just get my work done. If I have to dork with my OS to make it not suck, I should be on Linux! At least then, when I figure out how to make my OS not suck, I'm helping instead of contributing to Microsoft or Apple profits.
So, yeah, I'll maintain a Windows desktop for the few times I need it (Fusion 360 and some videoconferencing stuff), but otherwise it's been Linux full-time for me. And Apple can just go pound sand.
macOS 12 cannot maintain a USB 2.0 connection. Not by dongle. Not by dock. Not by monitor. Not with 3rd party. Not with Apple-approved hardware. No way, no how. This is known, reported and totally Apple's fault (some of the earlier macOS 11 builds work fine). And this is the standard problem with Apple, "It just works--until it doesn't. If it doesn't, sucks to be you." I'm done with that.
Windows 10 was already bad enough with "Please, sir, can I have some compute?" with "I say thee NAY! I will now upgrade for the next 40 minutes. Hah!" Add in even more telemetry and inconsistency and I just gave up.
The whole point of Windows and macOS was to NOT have to dork with my OS and just get my work done. If I have to dork with my OS to make it not suck, I should be on Linux! At least then, when I figure out how to make my OS not suck, I'm helping instead of contributing to Microsoft or Apple profits.
So, yeah, I'll maintain a Windows desktop for the few times I need it (Fusion 360 and some videoconferencing stuff), but otherwise it's been Linux full-time for me. And Apple can just go pound sand.
My conclusion is that all mainstream operating systems are now iterative and constantly in a state of semi-breakage, just like all modern apps, in an attempt to be more "modern" and to cut down on costs. I'm especially disappointed in Microsoft for their obsessive data collection. I've never experienced the "good old days" Apple fans seem to be referring to, so I can't comment on macOS (other than that it's clearly not for me).
It's quite absurd, really, because while the Linux desktop environment is certainly good for novices and advanced Linux users, anyone that falls between those categories (and that's a lot of people!) will definitely struggle when they try to switch to Linux. You're either content with the default setup, or need to dive into the terminal at some point, and the fact commercial operating systems are making their UX worse than Linux would be impressive if it wasn't so disappointing.
For what it's worth, I've managed to get Fusion360 running on Manjaro with a script a friend linked me online. I can't remember where I got it from exactly, but it involved auto downloading a bunch of Wine requirements and then just running the setup.
If you're not interested in tweaking your system, feel free to skip over the rest of the comment. If you're willing to give it a go, I've got some experience with Windows stuff on Linux that you may be interested in.
I barely use Fusion360, but the few times I used it, it worked pretty well in Wine. Even had decent 3D acceleration, though you can probably get a lot better performance with more trickery (DXVK etc. to enhance the 3D acceleration for example). Lutris (https://lutris.net/) has an install script (https://lutris.net/games/autodesk-fusion-360/), I recommend you give it a try. Lutris can help enable performance tuning tricks for productivity software quite easily, even if it's originally developed for playing video games. Might work for you, or it might not; if it does, it might just cut down on more unnecessary reboots. If it doesn't, you'll at most lose the time it takes to download the installer and remove the failed installation.
As for the video conferencing, you might be interested in Cassowary (https://github.com/casualsnek/cassowary), a tool to run Windows executables in a Windows VM through RDP, with suspend/resume of the VM on demand to cut down on resources used when you're not using Windows. It requires a bit of setup, but the guide is quite comprehensive in my opinion. You can forward your webcam to the Windows VM through USB forwarding to get it to work with video, and modern RDP should just be an RDP stream so there shouldn't be too much quality loss. Even if the Cassowary setup doesn't work, you can probably use the VM anyway.
It's quite absurd, really, because while the Linux desktop environment is certainly good for novices and advanced Linux users, anyone that falls between those categories (and that's a lot of people!) will definitely struggle when they try to switch to Linux. You're either content with the default setup, or need to dive into the terminal at some point, and the fact commercial operating systems are making their UX worse than Linux would be impressive if it wasn't so disappointing.
For what it's worth, I've managed to get Fusion360 running on Manjaro with a script a friend linked me online. I can't remember where I got it from exactly, but it involved auto downloading a bunch of Wine requirements and then just running the setup.
If you're not interested in tweaking your system, feel free to skip over the rest of the comment. If you're willing to give it a go, I've got some experience with Windows stuff on Linux that you may be interested in.
I barely use Fusion360, but the few times I used it, it worked pretty well in Wine. Even had decent 3D acceleration, though you can probably get a lot better performance with more trickery (DXVK etc. to enhance the 3D acceleration for example). Lutris (https://lutris.net/) has an install script (https://lutris.net/games/autodesk-fusion-360/), I recommend you give it a try. Lutris can help enable performance tuning tricks for productivity software quite easily, even if it's originally developed for playing video games. Might work for you, or it might not; if it does, it might just cut down on more unnecessary reboots. If it doesn't, you'll at most lose the time it takes to download the installer and remove the failed installation.
As for the video conferencing, you might be interested in Cassowary (https://github.com/casualsnek/cassowary), a tool to run Windows executables in a Windows VM through RDP, with suspend/resume of the VM on demand to cut down on resources used when you're not using Windows. It requires a bit of setup, but the guide is quite comprehensive in my opinion. You can forward your webcam to the Windows VM through USB forwarding to get it to work with video, and modern RDP should just be an RDP stream so there shouldn't be too much quality loss. Even if the Cassowary setup doesn't work, you can probably use the VM anyway.
Not only that, but shipping Microsoft Office onto the Mac makes it so much easier to leave if you're not playing video games.
Sadly I found out that Macs are filled with telemetry as well: https://mspoweruser.com/macos-big-sur-has-its-own-telemetry-... (2020)
Office on the Mac is awful.
When I worked at apple I wasnt the only person who ran office in a windows vm. It was a supported config.
When I worked at apple I wasnt the only person who ran office in a windows vm. It was a supported config.
It is awful, but so is office on windows. I get so many weird lockups, crashes, and file desynchronizations. Office is one of the worst pieces of software I have to run in windows.
This was years ago now, but I got thru college with a Macbook Air using the "Office Online" apps because the native apps were so unbelievably sluggish and resource hungry. Somehow the web apps were more performant.
I've had similar thoughts. If GUI programs running in WSL will look just like "regular" Windows apps (as MS said they intend to do) then Windows becomes a kind of front end to Linux. That would solve the "desktop" problems Linux has had.
But between the overwrought UI and the bugs MS never seems to fix, Windows is becoming a less and less attractive platform with each revision.
But between the overwrought UI and the bugs MS never seems to fix, Windows is becoming a less and less attractive platform with each revision.
But you have to make sure NOT to fall into the WSL trap. If you use WSL you are essentially using Windows.
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Windows 11 is the first windows release I haven’t used. It’s also the first windows release I will never use going back to windows 3. I am completely done with it now. The last release which wasn’t a complete punch in the balls was nearly 20 years ago.
>The last release which wasn’t a complete punch in the balls was nearly 20 years ago.
Windows 7 was actually pretty bloody good.
Windows 7 was actually pretty bloody good.
Windows 8 came out just about a decade ago. Nearly a decade of Windows pain is still quite unfortunate.
I still have a not-connected-to-the-net w7.
Runs my software great.
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Windows does what Microsoft wants. Period. Public discussion is just noise. Even more so, Apple.
If you want a computing environment that is responsive to your needs, you need to step away from products of those autocratic organizations.
If you want a computing environment that is responsive to your needs, you need to step away from products of those autocratic organizations.
What Apple wants and what I want seems to intersect about 95% of the time, at least in terms of phones and laptops.
Mainly what I want is to not think about my tools at all, and just pick them up or put them down whenever the need arises, without worrying about whether I'm making a secret catastrophic error or that my tools are pretending to be my tools, while actually their master is somebody else.
I gladly sacrifice control to Apple the same way I sacrifice control to my doctor or to my sanitation engineer, or, if I had a car, to my car manufacturer.
I'm not a teenager exploring the universe of options anymore. Now I just want to get from point A to point B.
Mainly what I want is to not think about my tools at all, and just pick them up or put them down whenever the need arises, without worrying about whether I'm making a secret catastrophic error or that my tools are pretending to be my tools, while actually their master is somebody else.
I gladly sacrifice control to Apple the same way I sacrifice control to my doctor or to my sanitation engineer, or, if I had a car, to my car manufacturer.
I'm not a teenager exploring the universe of options anymore. Now I just want to get from point A to point B.
In my experience, Apple customers mostly just convince themselves that they must want whatever it is Apple chooses to offer at the moment. This is most easily seen whenever the new version of an Apple product arrives, lacking a feature they had relied on. They immediately set to work persuading themselves they can make do without that.
This seems dismissive, especially when you're talking to other devs who have a lot of experience with different OS's. I'm sure some people just accept whatever Apple pushes because they want to have an iPhone for the status signal, but there are a decent number of tech-informed people who prefer MacOS for reasonable reasons.
The easiest person to fool has always been yourself. Apple didn't bring that about, but they absolutely rely on it.
How can I reply to this?
If I agree with you that Apple sucks, then you were right that Apple sucks.
If I say most of Apple's design and philosophy decisions are the best option for someone like me, then you were right Apple sucks because I'm trying to convince myself otherwise.
The only version of my experience you'd believe is the one you believed already: that Apple sucks.
If I agree with you that Apple sucks, then you were right that Apple sucks.
If I say most of Apple's design and philosophy decisions are the best option for someone like me, then you were right Apple sucks because I'm trying to convince myself otherwise.
The only version of my experience you'd believe is the one you believed already: that Apple sucks.
Well, you're right, as far as that goes. But there's the old T-shirt slogan, "If you can't change your mind, are you sure you still have one?" The processes by which Apple arrives at its feature set and design necessarily differ radically from the process that determines what features any individual needs. So, any overlap (insofar as that differs from what everybody else does) must be largely fortuitous, unless in fact your process is to look at what they offer and choose to want just that. Or, you are just one of the tiny minority where they happen to match by accident.
Clearly almost all Apple fans have to be in the former group. It is just possible you are in the latter, instead.
It is the same, BTW, for political parties.
Clearly almost all Apple fans have to be in the former group. It is just possible you are in the latter, instead.
It is the same, BTW, for political parties.
It needs a complete rewrite, just like google is doing with Fuschia, betting on the future involve making new choices that are not backward compatible due to security and performance concerns
Backward compatible is not what people want, they want ways to move forward just like how Apple did with Roseta2
We are moving in a world where energy consumption needs to be optimized due to climate change
Backward compatible is not what people want, they want ways to move forward just like how Apple did with Roseta2
We are moving in a world where energy consumption needs to be optimized due to climate change
Or, just don’t use it.
Complaining about Windows UX inconsistency sort of misses the point that the OS and the windowing system should be separate. The function of an OS is not to manage windows, it is to provide an abstraction layer between the applications and the hardware.
I think your argument is valid for something Linux where you can actually decouple those things. Technically, it is still true for windows, but practically it isn't. What you get from Microsoft is a complete OS without any officially sanctioned way to decouple the OS part (kernel and perhaps a few critical user land utils) and windowing system.
It is called Windows, the name does suggest that the product is more than a kernel.
That's, just your opinion, man.
Of course I agree with these confounding decisions, and I've written about it before. I must, however, point out that yes, you do in fact need an Apple account to log into your Mac device on recent versions of macOS. Not only that, but you won't be able to download any apps (free or not) without adding a credit card to your account.
I found the mac setup experience to be even worse than Windows 10 (both of these done in the last 6 months). I haven't even tried Windows 11 and have no intention of doing so. In both cases I made choices during the setup process that were not the default, and I believe that it broke some things, at least in the case of Mac, where most of the users do have another Apple device to use for 2FA, or do want to use iCloud for backups (or OneDrive - I'm sure some people use these services but I have absolutely no desire!)
Anyway, it's very frustrating to watch the user experience getting worse and worse from organizations that have an amount of resources to work with that we can't even fathom.
Edit: to say I'm not hugely invested in either Windows or Mac's longterm success. There are no personal or professional computing needs that I have (or predict) that can't be satisfied in Linux, and my usage patterns reflect that.
I found the mac setup experience to be even worse than Windows 10 (both of these done in the last 6 months). I haven't even tried Windows 11 and have no intention of doing so. In both cases I made choices during the setup process that were not the default, and I believe that it broke some things, at least in the case of Mac, where most of the users do have another Apple device to use for 2FA, or do want to use iCloud for backups (or OneDrive - I'm sure some people use these services but I have absolutely no desire!)
Anyway, it's very frustrating to watch the user experience getting worse and worse from organizations that have an amount of resources to work with that we can't even fathom.
Edit: to say I'm not hugely invested in either Windows or Mac's longterm success. There are no personal or professional computing needs that I have (or predict) that can't be satisfied in Linux, and my usage patterns reflect that.
> I must, however, point out that yes, you do in fact need an Apple account to log into your Mac device on recent versions of macOS.
This is false, at least as of macOS 12.3. However, the install process does encourage signing-in. Unlike Windows, though, it doesn’t require non-obvious shenanigans—like disconnecting from the Internet—to bypass it during the installer. Reportedly, the latest Windows 11 Insider builds do not provide any means to create a local account in the installer.
> Not only that, but you won't be able to download any apps (free or not) without adding a credit card to your account.
This is also false, I presently have an Apple account with no CC and have downloaded (free) Mac App Store applications using it.
This is false, at least as of macOS 12.3. However, the install process does encourage signing-in. Unlike Windows, though, it doesn’t require non-obvious shenanigans—like disconnecting from the Internet—to bypass it during the installer. Reportedly, the latest Windows 11 Insider builds do not provide any means to create a local account in the installer.
> Not only that, but you won't be able to download any apps (free or not) without adding a credit card to your account.
This is also false, I presently have an Apple account with no CC and have downloaded (free) Mac App Store applications using it.
I guess I should be more specific about what I could and could not do. I could not download XCode without adding a credit card. I've already mentioned that it seemed broken, which it did. I spent time with support trying to figure it out. Ultimately, once I added a credit card I was able to download. Perhaps I was already acknowledging that I would have an AppleID, since the machine was expressly for iOS development.
For every egregious user-hostile behavior, you can search and find a ton of forum threads where people discuss at length how to reverse or mitigate them. The fact that Microsoft is aware of this and continues to prioritize this kind of abusive growth hacking over user trust, knowing fully how that impacts the company's reputation among enthusiasts, is perhaps more damning than the actual practices.
Nobody at Microsoft who has decision-making authority actually cares. Contempt for the users is so deep in the DNA that this will never get better. It's disappointing, because it ultimately undermines all of the great effort that people elsewhere in the company have put into features like WSL that might otherwise make the platform attractive to modern developers.
It creates a really adversarial posture between the user and the platform. When they introduce new features, I'm reluctant to even try them because I don't trust their intentions. It's like being in an abusive relationship.