Amazon Flex(flex.amazon.com)
flex.amazon.com
Amazon Flex
https://flex.amazon.com/
471 comments
Man I couldn't care less who hands me my package if it arrives intact and on time.
I'm not looking for a "delivery experience".
I'm not looking for a "delivery experience".
Isn't the probability of something going wrong higher if the delivery infrastructure isn't staffed with full time people? I would guess that mishandling, loss, misdelivery, theft would all be more likely under the flex model.
The issue rates aren't as high as the media leads you to believe. For example, Airbnb has a policy with Lloyds for any catastrophic events, but they actually don't have that many issues and so just pay for them themselves when they happen. (Or at least this used to be the case.) The media just sensationalizes it when something goes wrong, so you fall into availability bias.
Plus, your costs are offset by having labor cost be variable instead of fixed, not paying benefits, etc. So if your margin is 10% higher as a result and you have a 5% increase in issues, you still come out better.
Plus, your costs are offset by having labor cost be variable instead of fixed, not paying benefits, etc. So if your margin is 10% higher as a result and you have a 5% increase in issues, you still come out better.
[deleted]
http://ejroundtheworld.blogspot.com/2011/07/airbnb-nightmare...
> If the “her” he is referring to is me, then the first part of this statement is false (the second I cannot attest to). During the first week of my nightmare, the customer service team at Airbnb was - as I stated in my June 29 blog post – helpful, caring and supportive. In particular, one customer service manager - and the company’s freelance photographer - were wonderfully kind to me, and both should know how grateful I am.
> And since June 30? On this same day, I received a personal call from one of the co-founders of Airbnb. We had a lengthy conversation, in which he indicated having knowledge of the (previously mentioned) person who had been apprehended by the police, but that he could not discuss the details or these previous cases with me, as the investigation was ongoing. He then addressed his concerns about my blog post, and the potentially negative impact it could have on his company’s growth and current round of funding. During this call and in messages thereafter, he requested that I shut down the blog altogether or limit its access, and a few weeks later, suggested that I update the blog with a “twist" of good news so as to “complete[s] the story”.
> Look, despite what some of you are saying, I am not an idiot. I understand why Airbnb called me and asked me to bring this story to an end; it is in their best profitable interest to do so. Unfortunately for me – 5 weeks and counting – there is no end in sight. Too much about this case remains unknown and unresolved, and according to both the District Attorneys and the police, it could be many more months before the criminal investigation moves forward.
> And for those who have so generously suggested a donation fund be set up to help me recover, I thank you from the bottom of my heart, and suggest that instead, you keep the money and use it to book yourself into a nice, safe hotel room the next time you travel. You’ll be glad you did.
I'll just leave this here.
https://www.airbnb.com/host-protection-insurance
> Effective January 15, 2015, if a guest is injured in a listing or elsewhere on the building property during a stay, the Host Protection Insurance program provides coverage for Airbnb hosts and, where applicable, their landlords under a general commercial liability policy.
There are a variety of gaps, and have been, where AirBnb and/or its insurance failed to cover things. It isn't until this year that insurance coverage was anywhere close to what I'd consider acceptable and basic. It still isn't "complete" as far as what I'd use for my rental property.
> If the “her” he is referring to is me, then the first part of this statement is false (the second I cannot attest to). During the first week of my nightmare, the customer service team at Airbnb was - as I stated in my June 29 blog post – helpful, caring and supportive. In particular, one customer service manager - and the company’s freelance photographer - were wonderfully kind to me, and both should know how grateful I am.
> And since June 30? On this same day, I received a personal call from one of the co-founders of Airbnb. We had a lengthy conversation, in which he indicated having knowledge of the (previously mentioned) person who had been apprehended by the police, but that he could not discuss the details or these previous cases with me, as the investigation was ongoing. He then addressed his concerns about my blog post, and the potentially negative impact it could have on his company’s growth and current round of funding. During this call and in messages thereafter, he requested that I shut down the blog altogether or limit its access, and a few weeks later, suggested that I update the blog with a “twist" of good news so as to “complete[s] the story”.
> Look, despite what some of you are saying, I am not an idiot. I understand why Airbnb called me and asked me to bring this story to an end; it is in their best profitable interest to do so. Unfortunately for me – 5 weeks and counting – there is no end in sight. Too much about this case remains unknown and unresolved, and according to both the District Attorneys and the police, it could be many more months before the criminal investigation moves forward.
> And for those who have so generously suggested a donation fund be set up to help me recover, I thank you from the bottom of my heart, and suggest that instead, you keep the money and use it to book yourself into a nice, safe hotel room the next time you travel. You’ll be glad you did.
I'll just leave this here.
https://www.airbnb.com/host-protection-insurance
> Effective January 15, 2015, if a guest is injured in a listing or elsewhere on the building property during a stay, the Host Protection Insurance program provides coverage for Airbnb hosts and, where applicable, their landlords under a general commercial liability policy.
There are a variety of gaps, and have been, where AirBnb and/or its insurance failed to cover things. It isn't until this year that insurance coverage was anywhere close to what I'd consider acceptable and basic. It still isn't "complete" as far as what I'd use for my rental property.
I think Amazon already operates on a risk-taking model for package delivery. When I first started using Prime it was very conservative about requiring signatures, and overtime that became relaxed and I'd come home to find packages on my doorstep. Now sometimes they aren't even at my door, but instead downstairs away from my apartment. I think they'll just keep taking more risks to save money until they start losing packages.
Amazon (ala UPS) requires signatures for the most random things. I get a $500 phone left on the porch, but a $2 cat toy requires a 2mi drive to a local quickie mart drop of facility because it needs a sig. From what I've heard, the signature requirement is driven my Amazon's merchants, not by them, so it's a crap shoot.
There has been more than once where a package will fail to be delivered in a timely manner (the website indicates its been out for delivery for 5+ days), and they have always overnighted a replacement without charge or expectation that if the original shows up that I return it to them.
These missing packages have been primarily from when UPS/FedEx decides to use a last mile delivery service, instead of delivering it themselves, which is primarily staffed by low wage workers with frighteningly high turnover.
These missing packages have been primarily from when UPS/FedEx decides to use a last mile delivery service, instead of delivering it themselves, which is primarily staffed by low wage workers with frighteningly high turnover.
I find it far more frustrating when one of the last mile delivery services says they have delivered the package, and then it shows up a day or two later.
Amazon hasn't honored the two day guarantee for me in these instances.
Amazon hasn't honored the two day guarantee for me in these instances.
I've found that the way they honor this guarantee is that you simply return it for the reason "Did not arrive on time" and you get a refund.
I've done it once because it didn't arrive on Friday, wouldn't come until Monday, and I wanted it for that weekend so I just went out and bought it and returned what Amazon delivered Monday. I felt kinda guilty but when it came Monday it looked like it was run over by a truck anyways, as in, had actual tire tracks on it.
I've done it once because it didn't arrive on Friday, wouldn't come until Monday, and I wanted it for that weekend so I just went out and bought it and returned what Amazon delivered Monday. I felt kinda guilty but when it came Monday it looked like it was run over by a truck anyways, as in, had actual tire tracks on it.
FedEx marked one of my packages as delivered but it didn't show up until 6 days later (the replacement arrived on the same day...). I assume someone just forgot about it on the truck, since the other one was actually delivered on time.
I've had far more problems with FedEx than with the contractors who deliver Prime Now.
FedEx (unlike UPS) routinely delivers packages a day late, and they often leave packages in front of my garage door (where they can get rained on) with no notification.
FedEx (unlike UPS) routinely delivers packages a day late, and they often leave packages in front of my garage door (where they can get rained on) with no notification.
Why? What are you basing this on?
Why would part-time people be any less responsible? They have less to deal with, more time to deliver, use their own car, choose their schedule, and set the radius and familiarity of their route. I'd expect them to make better deliveries and more accurately.
Uber/Lyft have shown this model works fine.
Why would part-time people be any less responsible? They have less to deal with, more time to deliver, use their own car, choose their schedule, and set the radius and familiarity of their route. I'd expect them to make better deliveries and more accurately.
Uber/Lyft have shown this model works fine.
Because problems inevitably occur and with full time staff it's more likely the delivery person has seen the problem 1000 times and knows exactly how to handle it optimally. In addition to knowing the ins and outs of your office or apartment, perhaps even recognizing you by name.
> I'd expect them to make better deliveries and more accurately.
I wouldn't. I'd expect the additional supply would get you faster, cheaper delivery at the expense of accuracy and a slight increase in other problems. I'm not against that trade off but there's no need to pretend it doesn't exist.
> Uber/Lyft have shown this model works fine.
Uber/Lyft and particularly Lyft where you're less likely to get an experienced professional, have shown that the model is not without it's tradeoffs.
> I'd expect them to make better deliveries and more accurately.
I wouldn't. I'd expect the additional supply would get you faster, cheaper delivery at the expense of accuracy and a slight increase in other problems. I'm not against that trade off but there's no need to pretend it doesn't exist.
> Uber/Lyft have shown this model works fine.
Uber/Lyft and particularly Lyft where you're less likely to get an experienced professional, have shown that the model is not without it's tradeoffs.
What is the tradeoff with uber/lyft? I still get where I'm going but it's often cheaper, more comfortable and just as fast (or faster) than previous options.
I don't see how accuracy is going to be a problem. These people aren't driving across the country with hundreds of items and it would be very much in their interest to make sure the right thing is delivered to the right person.
I think the "experienced professional" of a shipping carrier driver is vastly overrated here. Just what, exactly, do they do that can't be done by another part-time person?
I don't see how accuracy is going to be a problem. These people aren't driving across the country with hundreds of items and it would be very much in their interest to make sure the right thing is delivered to the right person.
I think the "experienced professional" of a shipping carrier driver is vastly overrated here. Just what, exactly, do they do that can't be done by another part-time person?
I'm basing it on a rough mental model.
Let's assume there is zero difference between the quality of full time people and part time people, but, being people there is distribution of people that a) need to be trained over time to handle certain on-the-job situations (e.g. dog in yard, etc...), and b) the system needs time (or some number of deliveries) to discover that some people are basically not fit for the position - including people signed up with the intent to scam the system. Let's compare two groups of employees, a full-time group and a part-time group.
The first thing that might surface in this model is that the part-time group requires more people to fill the same number of deliveries that the full time group can fulfill. So, in terms of numbers of bad deliveries, you'll have more failures just because you had to draw a larger number of individuals for the part-time pool vs the full time - even if quality of individuals for the full time vs part-time are exactly the same.
Adding further assumptions doesn't improve things. Maybe one might assume that part-time employees are more likely to move on to other jobs and leave the Flex workforce - well that's more churn and you get more people in category b, and more people temporarily needing training/experience. Maybe the distributions aren't exactly the same between full time and part time - one might theorize that scammers are more likely to take jobs under flex (maybe even under multiple aliases to keep from getting caught)... again this makes the performance under Flex worse...
Maybe even given the quality differences, it only ends up making sense to offer Flex delivery on the periphery of where it doesn't make cost sense to install or expand full-time infrastructure.
Let's assume there is zero difference between the quality of full time people and part time people, but, being people there is distribution of people that a) need to be trained over time to handle certain on-the-job situations (e.g. dog in yard, etc...), and b) the system needs time (or some number of deliveries) to discover that some people are basically not fit for the position - including people signed up with the intent to scam the system. Let's compare two groups of employees, a full-time group and a part-time group.
The first thing that might surface in this model is that the part-time group requires more people to fill the same number of deliveries that the full time group can fulfill. So, in terms of numbers of bad deliveries, you'll have more failures just because you had to draw a larger number of individuals for the part-time pool vs the full time - even if quality of individuals for the full time vs part-time are exactly the same.
Adding further assumptions doesn't improve things. Maybe one might assume that part-time employees are more likely to move on to other jobs and leave the Flex workforce - well that's more churn and you get more people in category b, and more people temporarily needing training/experience. Maybe the distributions aren't exactly the same between full time and part time - one might theorize that scammers are more likely to take jobs under flex (maybe even under multiple aliases to keep from getting caught)... again this makes the performance under Flex worse...
Maybe even given the quality differences, it only ends up making sense to offer Flex delivery on the periphery of where it doesn't make cost sense to install or expand full-time infrastructure.
But it would also be a lot easier to track what happened to that package and pinpoint a specific individual for the loss/theft/misdelivery, since Amazon has the driver's personal info, GPS location, and list of packages that they are delivering.
How is that tracking different for a full time person vs a person who works for flex? Basically full time employment makes the workforce more sticky, and whatever performance quality process you run with the workforce will retrain or remove people who don't perform.
With flex, it's likely the same quality process, only the workforce is larger and more likely to churn. So no matter what the performance of the quality process it has some non-zero time to detect and correct worker performance, so I don't see how one avoids a larger rate of delivery faults just from the workforce dynamics.
With flex, it's likely the same quality process, only the workforce is larger and more likely to churn. So no matter what the performance of the quality process it has some non-zero time to detect and correct worker performance, so I don't see how one avoids a larger rate of delivery faults just from the workforce dynamics.
Yodel (formerly the Home Delivery Network) used this model in the UK for years and were infamously bad. This may well be why they changed their name.
That's just one company, though. It might be awful because of their specific policies.
Amazon will most likely cover such problems, no questions asked. They will be defrauded more, for sure, but they gain a possibly gigantic network of distributors.
But the customer 'hassle' rate just went up, your internal efficiency also went down by whatever it cost to fix the problem, so there had better be some big benefits to this method showing up in other areas.
[deleted]
i want to agree with you
but a lot of "professional" "fulltime" delivery companies i had trouble with provided more than sub-par customer care.
i even have a black list of delivery companies i try to avoid (when purchasing from amazon vendors)
i even have a black list of delivery companies i try to avoid (when purchasing from amazon vendors)
It's the "on time" bit that is important.
I've spent whole weekends waiting in at home for a delivery from Amazon Logistics only to get emails at 7pm each evening telling me they tried to deliver and failed.
I've spent whole weekends waiting in at home for a delivery from Amazon Logistics only to get emails at 7pm each evening telling me they tried to deliver and failed.
The OnTrac experience is already so bad that I can't imagine it really becoming that much worse.
It's an issue or some wacko can come to your door pretending to be a delivery person.
Uber tells you the license plate of the car assigned to you; this seems like a good way of preventing someone driving up and saying "I'm your Uber" if they sniff you using Uber on your phone.
Amazon might not do this yet but they could and obviously should.
People who are totally unconcerned about someone totally random showing up at their door carrying a potentially large(!) package are a whole different level of naive. Most of the world is not like your suburban home culdesac or Silicon Valley.
Amazon might not do this yet but they could and obviously should.
People who are totally unconcerned about someone totally random showing up at their door carrying a potentially large(!) package are a whole different level of naive. Most of the world is not like your suburban home culdesac or Silicon Valley.
E-commerce companies have 2 points of contact with the customer - the website and the courier. It makes no sense whatsoever to me why there's this ongoing race to the bottom on the courier side of things while companies spend more and more on the website side. I suppose at that point they already have your money, so what if this delivery experience is awful?
Yodel are worse than useless, and I can't see this being much better.
Yodel are worse than useless, and I can't see this being much better.
What I don't understand, is why I can't pick my delivery slot for free.
Everybody has jobs. Everybody finds it annoying to buy something on line. You never know when it's going to turn up. You have to take a day off, and hope your driver is competent at his job.
Why can't you just say "I'll be at home on Thursday after 5pm. Call me on #555-333-9999 if you have any issues". Courier delivers the package after 5pm on Thursday.
One delivery. No wasted delivery attempts. If an attempt is failed, charge me for it.
Everybody has jobs. Everybody finds it annoying to buy something on line. You never know when it's going to turn up. You have to take a day off, and hope your driver is competent at his job.
Why can't you just say "I'll be at home on Thursday after 5pm. Call me on #555-333-9999 if you have any issues". Courier delivers the package after 5pm on Thursday.
One delivery. No wasted delivery attempts. If an attempt is failed, charge me for it.
If you live in SF, Seattle, or New York you can probably find a 'package locker' service like Amazon Locker or BufferBox to solve that problem for you. It's a bit pricy though -- you may as well just live in a luxury apartment and have the doorman/reception drop the package off inside your apartment for you.
I'm kind of amazed at the negative reactions this comment got. I'd bet the reason is, "the companies think it would cost more," but god yes it would be more convenient.
This is the world we envisage with gophr.it - Unfortunately, we're only inside London at the minute.
"Everybody has jobs"How about the local post office or your mail box?
I don't know about you, but my local post office opens at 10 and closes at 5pm, which are when I'm at work.
And my mailbox is a slot in the door. It's not going to accept my packages for me.
And my mailbox is a slot in the door. It's not going to accept my packages for me.
Oh, yeah. We don't actually have any real post offices where I live; post office functions are handled by select grocery stores and are available as long as the grocery stores are open.
Because one guy is delivering a huge number of packages, and the service wants this to happen in the most efficient i.e. cheapest way possible. They do their best to come up with an optimal route for all the packages for the day. UPS famously goes so far as to avoid left turns whenever possible when planning their routes for the day, because it takes up significantly more time.
If you're picking a more specific delivery window then you're throwing off that planning and it likely requires the delivery driver to take a less efficient route than they otherwise would. That costs the company, and therefore it costs you.
If you're picking a more specific delivery window then you're throwing off that planning and it likely requires the delivery driver to take a less efficient route than they otherwise would. That costs the company, and therefore it costs you.
To get efficiency, delivery companies have highly optimized routes to deliver as many packages in as little time and distance traveled. UPS even has algorithms to reduce the number of left turns. It's probably cheaper for delivery companies to make multiple delivery attempts than it is for them to allow recipients to specify their own delivery times.
Of course, there shouldn't be any logistical impediments preventing the delivery company from notifying you once a more precise delivery window is known.
Of course, there shouldn't be any logistical impediments preventing the delivery company from notifying you once a more precise delivery window is known.
DPD in the UK do this now. The morning of your delivery you get a text message giving you the hour your parcel will be delivered, and a link to rearrange delivery or to track the driver's current location.
To my mind, their system far outstrips the other couriers.
To my mind, their system far outstrips the other couriers.
Yeah. I had a delivery from them the other day. I could see a map showing exactly where the driver was at any time. Granted, it didn't auto-update, but whenever I reloaded the page it gave me an updated location, and told me where I was in the queue.
If you use Chrome DevTools, you can get a curl query that will keep grabbing the latest JSON from the tracking. We rigged it up with a check every minute and had it send us a Slack notification when the delivery was under a mile away :-)
That's a lovely bit of hacking! :)
Nice!
I actually just recently learned about UPS's "My Choice" program - it does exactly this, you get more precise delivery windows for packages and a certain number of times per year you can request specific delivery windows.
I have everything delivered to my office, as long as I can transport it home on my bike (i.e. no washing machines). Works very well for me, but apparently not every workplace encourages this. Here, the delivery guy brings the packages directly to my office ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Often there's a complete lack of policy around this, especially in buildings requiring swipecards to get in. I don't mind coming down to the lobby to pick up parcels, but it's unknown whether this is actually allowed by $EMPLOYER
Can't you get it delivered to work?
> What I don't understand, is why I can't pick my delivery slot for free.
Because picking a delivery slot imposes a constraint which creates a cost for the delivery provider.
> Everybody has jobs. Everybody finds it annoying to buy something on line. You never know when it's going to turn up. You have to take a day off, and hope your driver is competent at his job.
Most everybody has jobs, but most people I know don't find it annoying to buy stuff online; many people can have packages delivered to work, and many people have no problems with packages delivered to their home when they aren't there.
> Why can't you just say "I'll be at home on Thursday after 5pm. Call me on #555-333-9999 if you have any issues". Courier delivers the package after 5pm on Thursday.
Because, as you note, everyone has jobs, and if there was no cost to request delivery times, pretty much everyone would request something like "after 5pm". Which would eliminate the freedom of delivery companies to efficiently use delivery vehicles. Which would drive up their costs.
Asking for something which imposes an additional constraint on the service provider which has a cost to fulfill either costs everyone extra to subsidize you, or must cost you extra.
Because picking a delivery slot imposes a constraint which creates a cost for the delivery provider.
> Everybody has jobs. Everybody finds it annoying to buy something on line. You never know when it's going to turn up. You have to take a day off, and hope your driver is competent at his job.
Most everybody has jobs, but most people I know don't find it annoying to buy stuff online; many people can have packages delivered to work, and many people have no problems with packages delivered to their home when they aren't there.
> Why can't you just say "I'll be at home on Thursday after 5pm. Call me on #555-333-9999 if you have any issues". Courier delivers the package after 5pm on Thursday.
Because, as you note, everyone has jobs, and if there was no cost to request delivery times, pretty much everyone would request something like "after 5pm". Which would eliminate the freedom of delivery companies to efficiently use delivery vehicles. Which would drive up their costs.
Asking for something which imposes an additional constraint on the service provider which has a cost to fulfill either costs everyone extra to subsidize you, or must cost you extra.
> Which would eliminate the freedom of delivery companies to efficiently use delivery vehicles.
At present ( in the UK ) most courier delivery fleets stand idle in the evening after being out during the day missing deliveries to people who are in work. And having to call again the next day.
It perplexes me why they don't shift their delivery period six hours later to start at 15:00 and end at 21:00. That would cover both business and residential hours.
At present ( in the UK ) most courier delivery fleets stand idle in the evening after being out during the day missing deliveries to people who are in work. And having to call again the next day.
It perplexes me why they don't shift their delivery period six hours later to start at 15:00 and end at 21:00. That would cover both business and residential hours.
> It perplexes me why they don't shift their delivery period six hours later to start at 15:00 and end at 21:00. That would cover both business and residential hours.
I would imagine that is because the highest margins are made off of next-day deliveries from business to business. They often guarantee these deliveries by 10 AM because many companies are willing to pay extra to ensure that their package is delivered by 10 AM.
Consumers, by contrast, are more interested in paying as little as possible for shipping. Shifting their delivery hours to accommodate a group of customers who aren't willing to pay extra for the service while simultaneously killing off business from their most profitable customers would likely be a poor business decision.
I would imagine that is because the highest margins are made off of next-day deliveries from business to business. They often guarantee these deliveries by 10 AM because many companies are willing to pay extra to ensure that their package is delivered by 10 AM.
Consumers, by contrast, are more interested in paying as little as possible for shipping. Shifting their delivery hours to accommodate a group of customers who aren't willing to pay extra for the service while simultaneously killing off business from their most profitable customers would likely be a poor business decision.
> It perplexes me why they don't shift their delivery period six hours later to start at 15:00 and end at 21:00.
Maybe they feel that even people doing delivery jobs are entitled to be home with their family at the end of the day?
Maybe they feel that even people doing delivery jobs are entitled to be home with their family at the end of the day?
> Maybe they feel that even people doing delivery jobs are entitled to be home with their family at the end of the day?
More to the point, maybe they feel that the higher wage costs for that kind of shift work aren't worth whatever cost savings in other areas it would provide.
More to the point, maybe they feel that the higher wage costs for that kind of shift work aren't worth whatever cost savings in other areas it would provide.
Plenty of people work jobs where they are not at home in the evening, so I'm not sure this argument is the most effective. Second and third shift are real things for factory workers, almost everyone in a hospital, grocery store clerks, gas station attendants, janitors almost everywhere, security guards, emergency responders, hell anything that's open after 5pm (which is a ton of stuff).
So yeah, adding a second shift isn't unheard of. My grandpa worked second shift his whole life, and I worked third shift the whole way through college.
So yeah, adding a second shift isn't unheard of. My grandpa worked second shift his whole life, and I worked third shift the whole way through college.
Just because people do work 2nd shift does not mean it is ideal for them to do so. So I think parent is commenting to say that it is possible that delivery companies value work life balance for their employees and that is a good thing. Market forces change things sure (second shift becomes required to compete), but the first shift schedule is a benefit that I am sure a lot of delivery people appreciate.
I agree, this would be nice.
They would have to split the fleet, all business deliveries still need to be made 9-5.
Amazon have actually started doing this in reverse in the UK, you can set an address as a business address and your package should only be delivered 9-5. In practice the 'Amazon Logistics' drivers (the aforementioned blokes in cars) are terrible and rarely manage to get this right.
They would have to split the fleet, all business deliveries still need to be made 9-5.
Amazon have actually started doing this in reverse in the UK, you can set an address as a business address and your package should only be delivered 9-5. In practice the 'Amazon Logistics' drivers (the aforementioned blokes in cars) are terrible and rarely manage to get this right.
I wonder how this would work in more rural places in the US.
Before I graduated high school, I lived in rural-ish area where the nearest commercial couriers were 50+ minutes from my house to the north and about 90+ minutes to the south. Wal-Mart was literally my only choice for consumer goods, so I spent a good chunk of change online.
I always had the same driver for a certain courier. I asked him how often he had to come down that far, and if it was significantly out of the way compared to the rest of his route. He told me that there were occasionally other stops in my town, but it wasn't the norm. The city and the immediate suburbs were the vast majority of their deliveries. Driving 100 minutes round trip for a couple deliveries probably sucked.
Before I graduated high school, I lived in rural-ish area where the nearest commercial couriers were 50+ minutes from my house to the north and about 90+ minutes to the south. Wal-Mart was literally my only choice for consumer goods, so I spent a good chunk of change online.
I always had the same driver for a certain courier. I asked him how often he had to come down that far, and if it was significantly out of the way compared to the rest of his route. He told me that there were occasionally other stops in my town, but it wasn't the norm. The city and the immediate suburbs were the vast majority of their deliveries. Driving 100 minutes round trip for a couple deliveries probably sucked.
Someone who lives in this rural place will find it quite profitable to become the town's Amazon delivery person. Drive to pick up packages in the morning, come back and deliver during the day, then go home.
That would coincide with rush hour?
Apart from that it's a good idea.
Apart from that it's a good idea.
Perfectly reasonable responses.
This is also an opportunity waiting to happen.
This is also an opportunity waiting to happen.
> What I don't understand, is why I can't pick my delivery slot for free.
As well as the logistical issue others have mentioned: if they did/do offer such an option, you value the option so they'll expect you to pay for it (unless it becomes part of a race to the bottom with other distributors in which case eventually someone will offer that for free).
> after 5pm
That would definitely be chargeable. If evening deliveries were offered for free the majority of their customers would pick that.
> Call me on #555-333-9999 if you have any issues
Not going to happen: the delivery people work to pretty tight schedules in order to be as efficient as possible (and therefore cheap in terms of both man time and fuel). Taking time out to try get through to someone won't happen. You could be on another call, your phone might not be contactable for some other reason, and so forth. In circumstances where you are not ready and waiting to collect you are not unlikely to be in a position to not be able to immediately answer the phone.
As well as the logistical issue others have mentioned: if they did/do offer such an option, you value the option so they'll expect you to pay for it (unless it becomes part of a race to the bottom with other distributors in which case eventually someone will offer that for free).
> after 5pm
That would definitely be chargeable. If evening deliveries were offered for free the majority of their customers would pick that.
> Call me on #555-333-9999 if you have any issues
Not going to happen: the delivery people work to pretty tight schedules in order to be as efficient as possible (and therefore cheap in terms of both man time and fuel). Taking time out to try get through to someone won't happen. You could be on another call, your phone might not be contactable for some other reason, and so forth. In circumstances where you are not ready and waiting to collect you are not unlikely to be in a position to not be able to immediately answer the phone.
I think we would all love to see this.
Amazon do have their lockers. The problem with Amazon Lockers is that they're expensive. Even with prime it still costs extra on top (similar to one day shipping) to have it delivered to a locker.
I've noticed Amazon require a signature a lot LESS often now which does reduce this problem (since it can be left), and I guess Amazon are picking up the cost of the 1-5% of stolen packages.
PS - I've only had a single package in the last two years simply disappear (after it transitioned from a carrier to the USPO, it was a packet of underwear).
Amazon do have their lockers. The problem with Amazon Lockers is that they're expensive. Even with prime it still costs extra on top (similar to one day shipping) to have it delivered to a locker.
I've noticed Amazon require a signature a lot LESS often now which does reduce this problem (since it can be left), and I guess Amazon are picking up the cost of the 1-5% of stolen packages.
PS - I've only had a single package in the last two years simply disappear (after it transitioned from a carrier to the USPO, it was a packet of underwear).
I assume you meant a signature.
Or a combination of Amazon and the logistics companies. Mind you it's very safe to drop things at my house. (Rural home with a long driveway.) But I've noticed a trend toward a signature requirement becoming very rare whether it's Amazon or others.
Or a combination of Amazon and the logistics companies. Mind you it's very safe to drop things at my house. (Rural home with a long driveway.) But I've noticed a trend toward a signature requirement becoming very rare whether it's Amazon or others.
Is this geography-specific? "Even with prime it still costs extra on top (similar to one day shipping) to have it delivered to a locker." I've never been charged extra for Locker delivery.
You will be able to do this once Amazon Flex is built out (or Uber Delivery et al). Delivery drivers will make more money for delivering after normal ~9-5pm type hours.
Because an average courier drops 180 parcels a day.
Now add customer preferences and you have a mess that can't be satisfied because everyone wants their parcel 5-7pm.
Now add customer preferences and you have a mess that can't be satisfied because everyone wants their parcel 5-7pm.
> everyone wants their parcel 5-7pm
If everyone wants later delivery, maybe that is something to look into (to meet/satisfy customer demand). Instead of the alternative of packages not getting delivered in the daytime and trying again the next day.
If everyone wants later delivery, maybe that is something to look into (to meet/satisfy customer demand). Instead of the alternative of packages not getting delivered in the daytime and trying again the next day.
Now add the elastic capacity of a large number of casual part-timer workers who finished school/starbucks/whatever at 4pm and are happy to make a little cash working 5-7pm.
You can use a service like Doorman in SF or Parcel in NYC. UPS also has MyChoice.
Hahahaha. I tried to use MyChoice while on holiday in Canada. I was in an AirBNB, so wasn't listed on the building directory. This resulted in [1], repeating until I sat at home and waited for the UPS guy to arrive.
[1]: https://i.imgur.com/r6yB77e.png
[1]: https://i.imgur.com/r6yB77e.png
Yes yes yes. I don't want this for stuff I can transport myself, hack I can just go to a normal shop for that stuff, but when I need a piece of furniture or an appliance, I don't want to have to take a holiday to get it delivered. (and Yodel indeed sucks)
This is for Amazon Prime Now deliveries, which let you choose a delivery slot. You choose a two-hour delivery slot between 6am and midnight for free, or you can choose a 1 hour delivery slot, including within one hour from now, for a fee (at least those are the ranges in NYC).
In Poland, one company set up automated package drop points ("paczkomat", portmanteau of "paczka" - package, and "automat" - automaton, machine) in pretty much every big and small city. Couriers deliver packages to them both in the morning and in the evening, and you can pick them up 24/7 with no human interaction required (you get a one-time password via e-mail and text).
This is godsend for people who work standard hours. I buy on-line quite often, and whenever (90% of cases) there's an option, I pick up a paczkomat on my route home (big cities have a lot of them; mine has something around 50). If a particular shop doesn't offer this type of delivery, I order it to work.
Sadly, post office is no longer an option for me - they work standard hours, and only during Monday - Friday, which makes it hard to pick up anything there. In other words, I have to come late every time something big from Aliexpress comes.
EDIT:
> What I don't understand, is why I can't pick my delivery slot for free.
s/free/a fee/, and I think it could work. For large enough values of "a fee".
This is godsend for people who work standard hours. I buy on-line quite often, and whenever (90% of cases) there's an option, I pick up a paczkomat on my route home (big cities have a lot of them; mine has something around 50). If a particular shop doesn't offer this type of delivery, I order it to work.
Sadly, post office is no longer an option for me - they work standard hours, and only during Monday - Friday, which makes it hard to pick up anything there. In other words, I have to come late every time something big from Aliexpress comes.
EDIT:
> What I don't understand, is why I can't pick my delivery slot for free.
s/free/a fee/, and I think it could work. For large enough values of "a fee".
Interestingly, Amazon also runs the "Amazon Locker"[0] service in the US, which sounds much like the "paczkomat" you describe.
0. http://www.amazon.com/b/ref=amb_link_366591722_2?encoding=UTF8&node=6442600011Yeah, we have quite a few of those in small shops around the UK (in my city atleast).
Slightly offtopic rant
Amazon offered my universities students union the chance to install some inside the union (e.g. to help students who are at lectures during the day/don't trust flatmates etc), however the union council (who are elected to serve the students interest) voted with a majority against the idea because of how little corporate tax Amazon pays. Ironically, the students union website is hosted on AWS, but they're able to overlook that.
Slightly offtopic rant
Amazon offered my universities students union the chance to install some inside the union (e.g. to help students who are at lectures during the day/don't trust flatmates etc), however the union council (who are elected to serve the students interest) voted with a majority against the idea because of how little corporate tax Amazon pays. Ironically, the students union website is hosted on AWS, but they're able to overlook that.
Yup, that's it! See:
http://dailyweb.pl/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Paczkomat-InPo...
http://dailyweb.pl/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Paczkomat-InPo...
Same in Ireland, http://www.parcelmotel.com/
Delivers cheaper to Ireland when buying from the UK as a lot of UK vendors offer free delivery domestically.
Also allows shipping between their pickup box locations.
Oversize items go to a local depo that's open until 8pm so convenient overall.
This is a massive lack of imagination. I highly doubt the only motivation from Amazon's perspective is strictly about cost-cutting. On its surface, yes, it would be easy to assume this could result in some odd or lesser version of having a major courier deliver your package.
On the other hand, by having Amazon control the to-the-door experience, that gives them incredible granular controls over how things are done, when, by whom, and how they do it, including how they are supposed to treat you at the door (if you're there), what to say, etc. etc. As well as any additional things that could come in the future.
For example, what about a 5-minute tutorial for a new product you just ordered?
These are just the tip of the iceberg that Amazon could do with this.
On the other hand, by having Amazon control the to-the-door experience, that gives them incredible granular controls over how things are done, when, by whom, and how they do it, including how they are supposed to treat you at the door (if you're there), what to say, etc. etc. As well as any additional things that could come in the future.
For example, what about a 5-minute tutorial for a new product you just ordered?
These are just the tip of the iceberg that Amazon could do with this.
> This is a massive lack of imagination. I highly doubt the only motivation from Amazon's perspective is strictly about cost-cutting.
> For example, what about a 5-minute tutorial for a new product you just ordered?
I highly doubt people who are essentially doing low-wage contract piecework will have the motivation or ability to give me an effective 5 minute tutorial on the random gizmo I just researched and ordered. When would they learn that stuff, on the drive to my house?
Also, wasn't there a big story a few years ago about how Amazons treats many of their low-skill workers as easily replaceable automatons (many of which are now being replaced by literal automatons)? I can't see this as being much different.
> For example, what about a 5-minute tutorial for a new product you just ordered?
I highly doubt people who are essentially doing low-wage contract piecework will have the motivation or ability to give me an effective 5 minute tutorial on the random gizmo I just researched and ordered. When would they learn that stuff, on the drive to my house?
Also, wasn't there a big story a few years ago about how Amazons treats many of their low-skill workers as easily replaceable automatons (many of which are now being replaced by literal automatons)? I can't see this as being much different.
While I certainly can't prove your comments any other way, my point isn't to declare that I somehow know what Amazon is going to do with this, rather that there are a lot of interesting possibilities when you control the whole process, including the final delivery step of getting a product to the actual customer. There are things you just can't do when you are contracting that through a normal courier (UPS, FedEx, USPS, etc etc.).
There is a lot of potential value in white-glove services, yes. It's also something most people aren't all that interested in paying a reasonable amount for.
Think for a minute about the cost of sending someone trained out for a five-minute introductory session when a given gizmo is delivered. Think about the training required. Think about all the additional delivery complications this introduces. And so on.
There's value here, but it's not easy to realize. Places like Best Buy offer it through Geek Squad, but only in conjunction with a B&M service.
Think for a minute about the cost of sending someone trained out for a five-minute introductory session when a given gizmo is delivered. Think about the training required. Think about all the additional delivery complications this introduces. And so on.
There's value here, but it's not easy to realize. Places like Best Buy offer it through Geek Squad, but only in conjunction with a B&M service.
> It's also something most people aren't all that interested in paying a reasonable amount for.
That's me! I have 0 interest in it. I just want the stuff on my doorstep when I get home and a way to address if it hasn't been delivered. Neither of these require a white-glove service I don't want to pay for.
That's me! I have 0 interest in it. I just want the stuff on my doorstep when I get home and a way to address if it hasn't been delivered. Neither of these require a white-glove service I don't want to pay for.
> On the other hand, by having Amazon control the to-the-door experience, that gives them incredible granular controls over how things are done, when, by whom, and how they do it, including how they are supposed to treat you at the door (if you're there), what to say, etc. etc.
You can't exert control (e.g. uniforms, greetings, etc.) over independent contractors, so Amazon would not be able to do any of this under their current model.
You can't exert control (e.g. uniforms, greetings, etc.) over independent contractors, so Amazon would not be able to do any of this under their current model.
> You can't exert control (e.g. uniforms, greetings, etc.) over independent contractors, so Amazon would not be able to do any of this under their current model.
You can, but the degree, nature, and scope of such control will be part of any analysis as to whether they are bona fide independent contractors, or actually employees where you are trying to evade requirements of employment law.
You can, but the degree, nature, and scope of such control will be part of any analysis as to whether they are bona fide independent contractors, or actually employees where you are trying to evade requirements of employment law.
I hope they remember the world exists outside of the US and UK - Australia seriously needs some delivery competition between AusPost, StarTrack (owned by AusPost) and Toll. I'm sure I'm forgetting a few, but Australians buy a lot of stuff online [1].
AusPost won't accept anything but their own parcels / other national carriers (i.e. USPS but not UPS) into their parcel locker system, so it's a complete crapshoot whether your Amazon parcel is going to go around the world again.
Toll have tried to emulate this with their ParcelPoint system but there just aren't as many locations.
Amazon could seriously shake things up by launching Flex plus Lockers at the same time here. Flex would cover the rural areas quite well where the nearest courier depot is 1+ hours away (or more in WA, I'm sure)
1: http://auspost.com.au/annualreport2014/parcel-services.html but declining because our economy relies heavily on digging stuff up and selling it to China.
AusPost won't accept anything but their own parcels / other national carriers (i.e. USPS but not UPS) into their parcel locker system, so it's a complete crapshoot whether your Amazon parcel is going to go around the world again.
Toll have tried to emulate this with their ParcelPoint system but there just aren't as many locations.
Amazon could seriously shake things up by launching Flex plus Lockers at the same time here. Flex would cover the rural areas quite well where the nearest courier depot is 1+ hours away (or more in WA, I'm sure)
1: http://auspost.com.au/annualreport2014/parcel-services.html but declining because our economy relies heavily on digging stuff up and selling it to China.
But really, how often does the customer actually see the courier? If I have stuff delivered to the office, the receptionist signs for it and drops it off to me. If I have stuff delivered at home, my building's concierge signs for it and I pick it up when I get home. I can't remember the last time I gave any thought to the courier.
I see this becoming more like China -- which has a truly impressive courier system. There there is no branding or uniforms for the most part. Just guys on scooters who ring up and drop off your package. It works great.
I see this becoming more like China -- which has a truly impressive courier system. There there is no branding or uniforms for the most part. Just guys on scooters who ring up and drop off your package. It works great.
I don't think anybody really associates couriers with sellers - they're part of the infrastructure. It doesn't really count as "contact with the customer" (unless you see it as a business opportunity - making the experience special - which for some reason no one takes).
E-commerce businesses do however have strong incentives to ditch the completely unreliable delivery companies, because they cause a lot of mess on the business end (besides angry customers, you waste a lot of time finding the package and scolding the delivery people). As a result, most delivery options suck equally.
E-commerce businesses do however have strong incentives to ditch the completely unreliable delivery companies, because they cause a lot of mess on the business end (besides angry customers, you waste a lot of time finding the package and scolding the delivery people). As a result, most delivery options suck equally.
Plus, the established couriers have several useful services that Amazon can't practically replicate. For instance, with UPS/FedEx/USPS I can easily divert all my packages to a nearby pickup point regularly or on short notice, even in a flyover suburb. Amazon will never be able to replicate that[1]. If they ever offer Amazon Flex in my area, I hope there will be a way to opt out.
[1] I'm aware of Amazon Locker, but I don't live in Seattle, the Bay Area, or Manhattan; and dealing with yet another pickup point for a specific merchant just seems like an annoying hassle.
[1] I'm aware of Amazon Locker, but I don't live in Seattle, the Bay Area, or Manhattan; and dealing with yet another pickup point for a specific merchant just seems like an annoying hassle.
On the page it says:
> What kind of things will I deliver? You’ll deliver ultra-fast Amazon Prime Now packages.
If you're ordering something for ultra-fast same-day delivery, surely you know precisely where you want it delivered to at the time of ordering?
> What kind of things will I deliver? You’ll deliver ultra-fast Amazon Prime Now packages.
If you're ordering something for ultra-fast same-day delivery, surely you know precisely where you want it delivered to at the time of ordering?
Unless we can rate the delivery person, AND somehow verify that the person ringing at the door is indeed the person making the delivery, say by checking through an apps on your phone that they should be at your door now, and a pic of their face.
Worked for Uber...
Worked for Uber...
A lot goes into the infrastructure of the carriers, I think most companies cannot afford this.
The blank vans, oftentimes actually rental vans, are actually Amazon Logistics. This is Amazon's own delivery operation in the UK, and all Prime deliveries in my area use this service. It's been years since I have seen any third party delivery providers for Amazon orders.
Every time I've got something delivered by Amazon Logistics, it's actually been APC.
Oh, and it's shit. Order next day delivery at 9AM Monday? Delivered 7PM Tuesday! Get it Wednesday because the post room in my office closes at 6PM.
Oh, and it's shit. Order next day delivery at 9AM Monday? Delivered 7PM Tuesday! Get it Wednesday because the post room in my office closes at 6PM.
I was paying for prime but dumped it. Turns out if you pick the free option and the stuff is dispatched by amazon it tends to turn up within 48 hours anyway so fuck it.
Also, I live 100 yards from Currys/PC World and they're actually cheaper on a lot of things (which was a bit WTF when I discovered it)
Also, I live 100 yards from Currys/PC World and they're actually cheaper on a lot of things (which was a bit WTF when I discovered it)
Agreed, absolutely terrible service. My last two next-day Prime deliveries have been dreadful: 1 came a day late, the second still hasn't shown up.
In NYC, they like to use A1 International. I'm literally 0/2 with them, as neither package handled by A1I ever arrived.
Fucking this! The amount of time Prime deliveries arrive after I've already left work is ridiculous (in London).
How was the experience bad? I never see my UPS delivery guy so I can't imagine it matters one way or the other to me how my packages "magically" show up on my front porch.
We've had packages delivered by an individual similar to survelx, and the guy clearly smokes in his car as the package stinks of smoke and it even penetrates the items inside on occasion (clothing). Issue here is that he's not bound by company policy of smoking in a company vehicle, so he's free to smoke away.
It'd be valuable for you to complain to Amazon when that happens. They probably can't get feedback on a service like this except through complaints like that.
Complaining about YODEL in the UK is like spitting in the ocean or saying "Comcast sucks" in the US. Everyone knows it, but yet it continues. Amazon UK has a permanent discussion thread titled "Yodel sucks" that is just stories about how Yodel lost/stolen/damaged/etc people's packages.
Here is today's 44 post discussion:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/forum/amazon/ref=cm_cd_tfp_ef_tft_tp...
Here is today's 44 post discussion:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/forum/amazon/ref=cm_cd_tfp_ef_tft_tp...
I had an issue with my local UPS operation marking packages as 'Undeliverable as Addressed' at 20:00 the day they were supposed arrive, to meet their obligation. They would then arrive the next day without issue. I ended up calling Amazon, and they got the local UPS office on the phone and asked for the exact problem with addressing. There was none, and they issue did not reoccur.
Complained several times but still occurs. I'm stuck in that guy's catchment area so always a high chance it's the same bloke.
They'll probably get the idea if you start hitting them in the wallet. Any time the stuff you ordered smells of smoke, return it as having been damaged in transit (it's true!) and they should catch on pretty fast.
I don't think the package smelling like cigarette smoke qualifies as "damaged", sorry.
I hang out at coffee shops a lot and often times my bag and clothes end up smelling like coffee. Does that mean they are "damaged"? No. Especially since it's temporary (even more so in the case of the Amazon package, which is disposed of right away).
I hang out at coffee shops a lot and often times my bag and clothes end up smelling like coffee. Does that mean they are "damaged"? No. Especially since it's temporary (even more so in the case of the Amazon package, which is disposed of right away).
If only the packaging smells, then I agree, it's not damaged.
But they also said that sometimes the contents get smelly. That definitely qualifies as damaged.
Coffee smells come out a lot easier than cigarette smells, and you choose to go to those coffee shops, whereas the person I'm replying to does not choose to expose his brand-new clothes to cigarette smoke.
If I buy brand new clothes and they smell of cigarette smoke out of the package, damned right that means they're "damaged."
But they also said that sometimes the contents get smelly. That definitely qualifies as damaged.
Coffee smells come out a lot easier than cigarette smells, and you choose to go to those coffee shops, whereas the person I'm replying to does not choose to expose his brand-new clothes to cigarette smoke.
If I buy brand new clothes and they smell of cigarette smoke out of the package, damned right that means they're "damaged."
Sounds like entitlement to me. Wash the thing and the smell goes away. Jeez...
Really, it's "entitlement" to expect that newly purchased clothes don't come with a foul smell?
And again, cigarette smoke does not necessarily wash out as easily as you seem to think it does.
Would you be as understanding of the driver if he got ice cream all over the clothes instead? After all, wash it and it'll come out.
And again, cigarette smoke does not necessarily wash out as easily as you seem to think it does.
Would you be as understanding of the driver if he got ice cream all over the clothes instead? After all, wash it and it'll come out.
Most people are smart enough to understand the significant categorical differences between an ice cream stain and cigarette smoke.
Also, "foul" is completely subjective in this case. Guess what: I hate the plasticy/industrial smell of certain types of clothing packages. But I'm not gonna go around claiming the item is "damaged" simply because I don't like the way it smells out of the box.
Also, "foul" is completely subjective in this case. Guess what: I hate the plasticy/industrial smell of certain types of clothing packages. But I'm not gonna go around claiming the item is "damaged" simply because I don't like the way it smells out of the box.
What is the categorical difference between an ice cream stain and cigarette smoke? Because I honestly don't understand what distinction you're trying to make.
As the user Someone said..
Amazon won't do anything about it. [I feel] If my last experience with Amazon CS is any indication they'll read a script, and just refund your money. (Not reship.. I've had that issue as well) Also, if you're a prime member and have spent quite a bit of money on Amazon.. They still won't care.
I plan on cancelling my prime membership and seeking out alternatives.
Amazon won't do anything about it. [I feel] If my last experience with Amazon CS is any indication they'll read a script, and just refund your money. (Not reship.. I've had that issue as well) Also, if you're a prime member and have spent quite a bit of money on Amazon.. They still won't care.
I plan on cancelling my prime membership and seeking out alternatives.
Simple solution = rating system a la Uber.
I agree. When Amazon sends an order using one of these type of delivery services, they should send a followup email to the customer in a day or two after delivery asking for a simple rating on the delivery experience.
I guarantee that they have this feature planned out and are just waiting until they have enough drivers that firing some is an option.
Amazon is a rather wealthy company, are they really cutting corners on this key part of the customer experience because of money? Because good drivers would line up if they paid properly... or just hired a real delivery company.
Unless their copy on the website is a lie, the rates they're offering for courier jobs is actually quite competitive in the Seattle area. It's probably more about being able to control their own delivery experience than it is about cutting corners.
Do they not pay well? The rates in the Flex page look reasonable to me.
Great, so now as a customer, I'm responsible for management tasks for Amazon's ersatz delivery service. Umm... no.
There's an easier solution for this problem: Use Walmart, Newegg etc.
There's an easier solution for this problem: Use Walmart, Newegg etc.
It won't take many packages returned because they smell of smoke for that to become company policy.
I thought that because they were making money on the side, and therefore would be either a company, or sole trader, utilising their car that (in the UK anyways) it would fall under the banning a number of years back.
info:
info:
There are lots of ways a package delivery can be "bad."
For example, delivery services routinely leave packages at my garage rather than my front door, because it saves them 15 seconds of walking. This is less convenient for me but more convenient for them.
But that's not all! Once they put a package low to the ground and not out of the way, so that when I went to drive somewhere, I backed over it.
I once saw a delivery guy deliver to a neighbor. He dropped the package at their garage door, knocked on the garage door, and left. I assume they are required to knock but it doesn't say where.
And of course because they never knock or ring my doorbell, the only way I know a package has been delivered is if I sign up for electronic notifications, or I discover it on my way out.
In other instances, I've had packages simply delivered to the wrong house, I guess because numbers are hard. Once I had a package delivered to the wrong city.
Usually it works well enough, but there's plenty of room for improvement for me.
For example, delivery services routinely leave packages at my garage rather than my front door, because it saves them 15 seconds of walking. This is less convenient for me but more convenient for them.
But that's not all! Once they put a package low to the ground and not out of the way, so that when I went to drive somewhere, I backed over it.
I once saw a delivery guy deliver to a neighbor. He dropped the package at their garage door, knocked on the garage door, and left. I assume they are required to knock but it doesn't say where.
And of course because they never knock or ring my doorbell, the only way I know a package has been delivered is if I sign up for electronic notifications, or I discover it on my way out.
In other instances, I've had packages simply delivered to the wrong house, I guess because numbers are hard. Once I had a package delivered to the wrong city.
Usually it works well enough, but there's plenty of room for improvement for me.
It would be really interesting to see a map of delivery service satisfaction. It clearly varies a great deal.
I'm in a fairly dense urban area, one of the next-day prime locations. Our apartment gets about 4 packages a week I'd say. Probably 90% arrive on time or ahead. I've had a couple where the driver just threw the package up the stairs to the apartment, instead of to the door. Still, considering the sheer number of packages, I've yet to have a misplaced or stolen package.
They do drop off without ringing fairly often. Personally I don't mind, but it seems like that could be standardized.
I'm in a fairly dense urban area, one of the next-day prime locations. Our apartment gets about 4 packages a week I'd say. Probably 90% arrive on time or ahead. I've had a couple where the driver just threw the package up the stairs to the apartment, instead of to the door. Still, considering the sheer number of packages, I've yet to have a misplaced or stolen package.
They do drop off without ringing fairly often. Personally I don't mind, but it seems like that could be standardized.
UPS/Fedex/USPS aren't burger flipper operations.
The "magic" is the stuff that happens behind the scenes, all of these companies, from the frontline employees to the backend systems have a lot of details.
Examples of why your experience would suck:
- Late packages
- Lost packages
- Stealing of your stuff
- Damage to your stuff
- Lower-tier people learning your habits
- Generally high level of fuckups.
IMO, Amazon's path here is a sign that they are in trouble. In the late 90's, ecommerce players looking to cut costs did stuff like use Airborne Express (later acquired by DHL) and the company that become Fedex Home/Ground. Both companies used contracted out delivery drivers or courier companies, and both were big fuckups.
UPS/FedEx/USPS are pretty efficient at this stuff, so the final frontier for Amazon is exploiting the workforce to cut costs. So you'll have folks driving their mom's car to deliver packages Uber-style, with inadequate insurance and insufficient income to maintain a vehicle suitable for the purpose.
The "magic" is the stuff that happens behind the scenes, all of these companies, from the frontline employees to the backend systems have a lot of details.
Examples of why your experience would suck:
- Late packages
- Lost packages
- Stealing of your stuff
- Damage to your stuff
- Lower-tier people learning your habits
- Generally high level of fuckups.
IMO, Amazon's path here is a sign that they are in trouble. In the late 90's, ecommerce players looking to cut costs did stuff like use Airborne Express (later acquired by DHL) and the company that become Fedex Home/Ground. Both companies used contracted out delivery drivers or courier companies, and both were big fuckups.
UPS/FedEx/USPS are pretty efficient at this stuff, so the final frontier for Amazon is exploiting the workforce to cut costs. So you'll have folks driving their mom's car to deliver packages Uber-style, with inadequate insurance and insufficient income to maintain a vehicle suitable for the purpose.
Drivers from Amazon (and only Amazon) consistently flag first-attempt deliveries as "Unable to deliver package", then successfully deliver the package the second time around without any issue. And although these deliveries could be from either Amazon-Randoms or Amazon-Yodel couriers, the issue is still a recurring one.
Trying to get any sort of resolution out of Amazon is impossible, as they insulate their logistics department from any customer service complaints. All you can do is point out that it happens nearly every delivery.
Plus it's just plain weird, that some guy in joggers turns up and hands you a package. There's no way to associate the courier as a courier, and as such my first thought is usually "Why does this man have my stuff? Did I just let a random guy into my complex?"
Trying to get any sort of resolution out of Amazon is impossible, as they insulate their logistics department from any customer service complaints. All you can do is point out that it happens nearly every delivery.
Plus it's just plain weird, that some guy in joggers turns up and hands you a package. There's no way to associate the courier as a courier, and as such my first thought is usually "Why does this man have my stuff? Did I just let a random guy into my complex?"
I've ordered a few times from Prime Now and so far it's been a pretty good experience. I like how it shows real time GPS tracking of the delivery driver as well as the name of the driver.
I've put specific instructions on where to leave the package if I'm not there or to give me a call when they've arrived, and so far no problems there. It's pretty easy to associate the courier as a courier since a notification pops up saying the driver has arrived and you can see the person holding a big brown bag with an amazon label on it. Pretty straight forward imo.
So far a much better experience than OnTrac leaving shit wherever they please.
I've put specific instructions on where to leave the package if I'm not there or to give me a call when they've arrived, and so far no problems there. It's pretty easy to associate the courier as a courier since a notification pops up saying the driver has arrived and you can see the person holding a big brown bag with an amazon label on it. Pretty straight forward imo.
So far a much better experience than OnTrac leaving shit wherever they please.
When Amazon opened in China, they had a big problem with these temp couriers showing up for work, stealing a package, and going MIA
Main complaint is when the person lies about delivering it if they can't make the promised date. Then they drop it off the next day with little repercussions.
I've also had problems with companies using alternative shippers for cold-packed stuff, presumably because it was cheaper. Then it sat in someone's hot car for 12 hours and was delivered with room temp ice packs. Sure it was delivered on the right day, but not well.
I've also had problems with companies using alternative shippers for cold-packed stuff, presumably because it was cheaper. Then it sat in someone's hot car for 12 hours and was delivered with room temp ice packs. Sure it was delivered on the right day, but not well.
If you see a UPS delivery guy or truck, you know who it is. Not so when some random person is creeping around your house.
Well to be fair, "not the greatest" doesn't mean it was bad. Just probably not as super friendly as the marketing photo they chose. :-)
Delivery service quality has gone down for years now, here in Germany
A few times a delivery guy stole my packages (>1000€) and most of the time it gets simply placed in the hallway without further notice...
Insurance covers this, but it's aggravating non the less :\
A few times a delivery guy stole my packages (>1000€) and most of the time it gets simply placed in the hallway without further notice...
Insurance covers this, but it's aggravating non the less :\
I used to be a delivery driver in rural England, and one day it was a Harry Potter book release date and we were told explicitly not to leave on the door step if they weren't in. I'm not sure who sent these instructions whether it was the company sending the items, or our company delivering, but it's funny to see perceived value imposed on this occasion.
I can't find anything that says Amazon bought Yodel - do you have a source? That said, I think you might be right about Yodel's general model being like this. Their service is shocking.
On the other hand, right now I am waiting on a parcel being delivered by DPD on behalf of Amazon. They have given a one hour window, I can track the location of the van online, and I could have text them this morning to rearrange the delivery of the parcel or provide different delivery instructions. And the drivers wear uniforms!
On the other hand, right now I am waiting on a parcel being delivered by DPD on behalf of Amazon. They have given a one hour window, I can track the location of the van online, and I could have text them this morning to rearrange the delivery of the parcel or provide different delivery instructions. And the drivers wear uniforms!
They didn't acquire Yodel, but they did acquire a minor stake in it: http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/mar/24/amazon-yod...
DPD are a fine example of how it should be done. It's just a shame the current home delivery option is such a lottery.
I'm a big fan of DPD's system except for the fact that their optimiser always tries to deliver to our house during school pickup - their software doesn't allow for any time exclusions and sometimes their drivers don't respect deliver to neighbour requests, otherwise their service would be perfect.
[deleted]
How on earth did you get Amazon to send you a delivery with DPD?
Dunno, I'd say it happens more often than not. For us they use a combination of DPD, Hermes, Yodel and Royal Mail/Parcel Force. We have Amazon Prime and live in a fairly out of the way location so it's probably a combination of those two factors.
Amazon has sent a lot of Prime packages to me via DPD, but it seems to depend on when I order it. If I order on Saturday, I have a feeling they have very little choice as to which courier to use and as such it tends to be DPD.
I really prefer DPD because you can track the vehicle and you also get a delivery slot. Recently, Amazon have delivered some stuff for me via Royal Mail and ParcelForce (I ordered in the week) and whilst the packages did get to my house the next day, the tracking was much less informative/useful than what was offered by DPD.
I really prefer DPD because you can track the vehicle and you also get a delivery slot. Recently, Amazon have delivered some stuff for me via Royal Mail and ParcelForce (I ordered in the week) and whilst the packages did get to my house the next day, the tracking was much less informative/useful than what was offered by DPD.
I was thinking the same thing. I recently had something from Amazon delivered by a woman (same as you mentioned, no uniform or any indication she was with Amazon at all) who turned up with 2 young children who got out of the car and were running around in the car park outside my flat while she came in to deliver a package. I was confused at the time but this would definitely make sense.
Yodel use self employed drivers, probably in a similar way to flex, but I doubt they get as much money - £30 to £50 a day - not sure how many parcels that entails.
http://yodel.broadbeantech.com/jobs/view/4467/
http://yodel.broadbeantech.com/jobs/view/4467/
You supply the fuel... If you take into account the wear and tear on your car and the cost of refueling, this is like minimum wage levels of income.
I'd be interested to read an account of someone who has actually done this "job"* (*technically self-employed, therefore treated like "unemployed" to most financial institutions and don't receive normal benefits like holiday time).
I'd be interested to read an account of someone who has actually done this "job"* (*technically self-employed, therefore treated like "unemployed" to most financial institutions and don't receive normal benefits like holiday time).
There are some stories here http://www.netmums.com/coffeehouse/working-childcare-692/wor...
Interesting that one got the mobile numbers of the customers to arrange delivery, while others clearly failed to deliver and then didnt get paid.
Interesting that one got the mobile numbers of the customers to arrange delivery, while others clearly failed to deliver and then didnt get paid.
Its called courier owner driver I believe. There are forums dedicated to it. Payment is per parcel, with certain numbers "guaranteed". You need no meet certain insurance criteria, sometimes need to buy equipment / work clothing. Not an easy way to make money.
Yodel offer 50-85p per parcel: http://codforum.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11911 Amazon Logistics in the UK: http://codforum.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11936
There is also lifestylecouriers.net for anyone who wishes to delve deeper into Yodel, co (requires registration)
Yodel offer 50-85p per parcel: http://codforum.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11911 Amazon Logistics in the UK: http://codforum.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11936
There is also lifestylecouriers.net for anyone who wishes to delve deeper into Yodel, co (requires registration)
In the US they have been using Laser Ship. The delivery driver is usually some dude in their personal car with a Lazer Ship magnent on the side. Not sure if this is similar but they don't look like UPS, FedEx or DHL drivers.
No uniform? The least Amazon could do is send their drivers a hat and a sticker, or something.
NOPE! That could imply that they are employees and we all know that's impossible ;)
Oh right, I forgot that they're skirting employment law.
The funny thing is that this wouldn't fly in Canada, (and I'm assuming other jurisdictions, like California), since even the inference of an employer/employee relationship constitutes one when it comes to legal entitlements and responsibilities.
Being in a Prime Now delivery area, I've had three recent deliveries by individuals in private cars, and each of them was wearing an Amazon Prime Now polo shirt.
In the past, I've had private car deliveries from Amazon, but I think they were generally LaserShip.
Echoing the author's sentiments, I had one delivery guy that looked sketchy. I forgot I was waiting on a package, and a guy showed up in my driveway, idled there for about five minutes (which my dogs alerted me to), then started lumbering up the driveway with a package in hand, smoking a cigarette, which he disposed of in my garden. The guy wasn't obviously from anywhere, in that neither his clothing nor car indicated any company affiliation whatsoever, so I stopped him and asked him his name and employer, and it was LaserShip, not Amazon.
In the past, I've had private car deliveries from Amazon, but I think they were generally LaserShip.
Echoing the author's sentiments, I had one delivery guy that looked sketchy. I forgot I was waiting on a package, and a guy showed up in my driveway, idled there for about five minutes (which my dogs alerted me to), then started lumbering up the driveway with a package in hand, smoking a cigarette, which he disposed of in my garden. The guy wasn't obviously from anywhere, in that neither his clothing nor car indicated any company affiliation whatsoever, so I stopped him and asked him his name and employer, and it was LaserShip, not Amazon.
The delivery-person on the picture on the linked webpage is definitely wearing a branded jacket.
I've often thought about starting a delivery-as-a-service company where the deliverer wears their phone (or a phone) clipped to their chest (or diagonal satchel strap) where branding might otherwise go. And the phone would automatically show branding of whoever they were representing for that particular delivery.
If the rest of their uniform were neutral, it might work out.
If the rest of their uniform were neutral, it might work out.
UK Prime customer getting terrible service from Amazon delivery - I think you're right, I complained the other day that Amazon are the only delivery people who demand I come down to the building entrance to collect my package instead of delivering it to my door.
Prime is an important part of Amazon's strategy, if they're not going to actually deliver packages properly then they're screwing themselves over.
I'll see how it goes but if there's many more problems I'm cancelling Prime.
EDIT: WTH am I getting d/ved for?
Prime is an important part of Amazon's strategy, if they're not going to actually deliver packages properly then they're screwing themselves over.
I'll see how it goes but if there's many more problems I'm cancelling Prime.
EDIT: WTH am I getting d/ved for?
I don't pay for Prime.
Ether I or my wife buy something once a month 'next-day'. Amazon fail to deliver it, we complain to customer service, and demand a free month of Prime.
Rinse/repeat.
Ether I or my wife buy something once a month 'next-day'. Amazon fail to deliver it, we complain to customer service, and demand a free month of Prime.
Rinse/repeat.
> WTH am I getting d/ved for?
No idea, so I upvoted you.
Now don't downvote me people just because I'm commenting about it. I didn't start it so it's not fair.
No idea, so I upvoted you.
Now don't downvote me people just because I'm commenting about it. I didn't start it so it's not fair.
Also upvoted, Im experiencing the same issues as him. Never had a problem when it was DHL/InterLink/DPD/etc (sure they weren't good, but they were much better than Amazon!).
Recently all my orders from amazon have come via Amazon Logistics and all I can say is they SUCK. Ive started using lockers cause I cant be bothered with the hassle of them failing to get into my flat block and then not contacting me at all. Ive complained to amazon several times and they just dont care.
Package delivery is never a good experience in the UK
i have my packages delivered to a friendly shop nearby - to my house, it's a nightmare.
The collect+ system also works reasonably well, i take that option if offered. (where it's delivered to a local cornershop or similar and you walk to pick it up)
I really feel there should be a gap in the market for "last mile" delivery to be solved properly, but i suspect there's not enough money to slow things down, and residential delivery is inherently difficult anywhere that doesn't have regimented street layouts.
Try addresses for all lo - if no reply, deliver to pre-arranged local shop. Text/email alert allowing redelivery to address or changed address within an hour or two, for a premium fee (bicycle couriers and other instant courier delivery)
that would solve all of my issues anyway..
i have my packages delivered to a friendly shop nearby - to my house, it's a nightmare.
The collect+ system also works reasonably well, i take that option if offered. (where it's delivered to a local cornershop or similar and you walk to pick it up)
I really feel there should be a gap in the market for "last mile" delivery to be solved properly, but i suspect there's not enough money to slow things down, and residential delivery is inherently difficult anywhere that doesn't have regimented street layouts.
Try addresses for all lo - if no reply, deliver to pre-arranged local shop. Text/email alert allowing redelivery to address or changed address within an hour or two, for a premium fee (bicycle couriers and other instant courier delivery)
that would solve all of my issues anyway..
I'm a British expat living in Amsterdam. My company uses this service called MyPup - they give me a username and a code, I have all my stuff shipped to them and when it arrives they send me an SMS message letting me know it's arrived. Around an hour later I get another message letting me know it's been delivered to my office and the code to get into a temporary locker to retrieve my package.
They have someone at their office 24/7 to receive packages and another guy that does the "last mile". Once I urgently needed a package that arrived out of office hours on Friday - I sent them an email and they bought it to my house on Saturday. It's awesomely convenient!
They have someone at their office 24/7 to receive packages and another guy that does the "last mile". Once I urgently needed a package that arrived out of office hours on Friday - I sent them an email and they bought it to my house on Saturday. It's awesomely convenient!
I've had terrible experiences with some couriers, but good experiences with DPD.
They provide a one-hour delivery window, a map with local van tracking, and the driver usually arrives in the earlier half of the time slot.
You can choose an alternative date or delivery to a neighbour right until the van rolls up.
Short of Star Trek teleportation or Magic Drone Technology[tm], it's probably as a good a service as it can be.
They provide a one-hour delivery window, a map with local van tracking, and the driver usually arrives in the earlier half of the time slot.
You can choose an alternative date or delivery to a neighbour right until the van rolls up.
Short of Star Trek teleportation or Magic Drone Technology[tm], it's probably as a good a service as it can be.
have you switched delivery to neighbour on the day? i have, to a direct neighbour, and the new date given was 24hrs later. I eventually cancelled delivery of that package because it still wasn't with me 4 days later.
Generally i've had poor experiences with DPD, just like any other.
Having moved from Australia to the UK, I can tell you the delivery services I've used so far (Yodel, DPD etc) are far superior than any service in Australia. They even deliver on Saturdays and Sundays. That's amazing.
You're the first person I've ever heard compare Yodel favourably to anything, deliveries must be truly awful in Australia!
I order way, way too much stuff in Australia, here's a summary:
AusPost: Our national carrier, realised a few years ago that no one's sending letters any more and "pivoted" to parcel delivery. Parcel Lockers [0] are a "new" innovation here but heaven help you if you try to get a courier parcel into one. Royal Mail = Good, DHL = Bad in this case and you might not even know until the seller receives the parcel back.
Fedex: Sorry, we missed you. (And the nearest depot is 30+ minutes away somewhere where buses don't go and you can only collect after 4 on weekdays)
DHL: Sorry, we missed you.
UPS: Sorry, we missed you (or handed your parcel off to StarTrack, in which case it'll go to a parcel locker, but you'll never know if this is actually going to happen)
USPS, Royal Mail etc: Handed off to AusPost, can go to a parcel locker.
StarTrack: More expensive, more blue version of AusPost - semi private (?), the only courier that AusPost will let into the lockers
Toll: Sorry we missed you, there's a redelivery fee in a lot of cases. Tried to start up a Parcel Locker competitor and then didn't expand to many locations [1]. The website returned 500 errors for the first 6 months of its existence.
Amazon: We're not going to actually tell you who is carrying your parcel because we outsourced it to iParcel who sometimes use UPS and sometimes use AusPost. Send an Amazon (US/UK/DE) parcel to an AusPost locker at your own peril
eBay: Most Aussie sellers use AusPost, so that works, but for some reason overseas orders go through some kind of Pitney Bowes reseller - see UPS, DHL, FedEx, Amazon above.
[0]: http://lockers.auspost.com.au [1]: http://parcelpoint.com.au
AusPost: Our national carrier, realised a few years ago that no one's sending letters any more and "pivoted" to parcel delivery. Parcel Lockers [0] are a "new" innovation here but heaven help you if you try to get a courier parcel into one. Royal Mail = Good, DHL = Bad in this case and you might not even know until the seller receives the parcel back.
Fedex: Sorry, we missed you. (And the nearest depot is 30+ minutes away somewhere where buses don't go and you can only collect after 4 on weekdays)
DHL: Sorry, we missed you.
UPS: Sorry, we missed you (or handed your parcel off to StarTrack, in which case it'll go to a parcel locker, but you'll never know if this is actually going to happen)
USPS, Royal Mail etc: Handed off to AusPost, can go to a parcel locker.
StarTrack: More expensive, more blue version of AusPost - semi private (?), the only courier that AusPost will let into the lockers
Toll: Sorry we missed you, there's a redelivery fee in a lot of cases. Tried to start up a Parcel Locker competitor and then didn't expand to many locations [1]. The website returned 500 errors for the first 6 months of its existence.
Amazon: We're not going to actually tell you who is carrying your parcel because we outsourced it to iParcel who sometimes use UPS and sometimes use AusPost. Send an Amazon (US/UK/DE) parcel to an AusPost locker at your own peril
eBay: Most Aussie sellers use AusPost, so that works, but for some reason overseas orders go through some kind of Pitney Bowes reseller - see UPS, DHL, FedEx, Amazon above.
[0]: http://lockers.auspost.com.au [1]: http://parcelpoint.com.au
im in the UK and any delivery tends to try my house first, then a neighbour and failing that the shop opposite me.
The only time I have any real issue is when it requires signing for e.g. speciali delivery, in which case I have to go collect it.
Saying that, I did have a delivery (ebay purchase delivered by courier) that was stolen. they must have watched the driver try to deliver and when there was no answer he went to the shop and dropped it off there. a few minutes later someone went in and asked for the parcel and the shop gave it out. not their fault and it should have been signed for so I was able to claim a refund.
The only time I have any real issue is when it requires signing for e.g. speciali delivery, in which case I have to go collect it.
Saying that, I did have a delivery (ebay purchase delivered by courier) that was stolen. they must have watched the driver try to deliver and when there was no answer he went to the shop and dropped it off there. a few minutes later someone went in and asked for the parcel and the shop gave it out. not their fault and it should have been signed for so I was able to claim a refund.
Every time I use collect+ the shop always seems to complain about it (it's too big/I'm too busy/etc.). These have all been various different shops.
The same happened to me in Chicago this past Sunday. Can't say I didn't like it but it was weird to get a package on a Sunday. Especially since I want forewarned that it will happen and I just got a phone call that my package is downstairs.
USPS delivers my Amazon packages on Sundays for a while now. I love it. I just wish more items were available for Sunday delivery. I suppose it won't be long now though.
I've had the same experience, also in the UK!
But as to it not being the greatest experience, well, yes they are not always as professional as real courier companies. And a lot of the time they've just said "User24?" while handing me the package, so Amazon probably need to put a bit more effort into training. And I wonder how easy it would be to provide fake ID to Amazon and just steal a whole load of admittedly random packages? But, maybe that was the point of this possible trial, to identify issues like that so that the launch experience would be better?
But as to it not being the greatest experience, well, yes they are not always as professional as real courier companies. And a lot of the time they've just said "User24?" while handing me the package, so Amazon probably need to put a bit more effort into training. And I wonder how easy it would be to provide fake ID to Amazon and just steal a whole load of admittedly random packages? But, maybe that was the point of this possible trial, to identify issues like that so that the launch experience would be better?
Amazon has been doing direct deliveries of some items here in San Diego for quite a while now. I don't mind it at all especially since it means some items are delivered the same day I order them.
I vastly prefer their own couriers to USPS (the increased usage of which has caused me to consider cancelling Amazon Prime multiple times now -- loved Prime when it was basically all UPS here, USPS finds new and interesting ways to screw up my Amazon package deliveries on a monthly basis).
I vastly prefer their own couriers to USPS (the increased usage of which has caused me to consider cancelling Amazon Prime multiple times now -- loved Prime when it was basically all UPS here, USPS finds new and interesting ways to screw up my Amazon package deliveries on a monthly basis).
I've seen the same in US too, random private car, person without any amazon branding/attire stopping by and dropping off Amazon packages. Might have been a beta trial in Silicon Valley. It was a little disconcerting watching someone stop by like that and drop off a package.
Same here. They throw the shit on my doorstep on the street in London, ring the doorbell and walk off.
One day I lost a 512 gig Samsung 840 Pro to this as someone walked off with the package as I was out. Amazon sorted it next day but that's not the point.
One day I lost a 512 gig Samsung 840 Pro to this as someone walked off with the package as I was out. Amazon sorted it next day but that's not the point.
What would be a "great" delivery experience?
Seems on-time or faster with no damage is all that's needed. I prefer not even having to see/interact with a person for it.
Seems on-time or faster with no damage is all that's needed. I prefer not even having to see/interact with a person for it.
I was going to ask the same thing. My normal delivery experience is picking up my package off the porch as I watch the ass-end of a delivery truck mosey on down the street.
Given the number of Yodel parcels that just fail to get delivered, I have to agree that it's not a particularly good experience.
At least Amazon customer support is great.
At least Amazon customer support is great.
[deleted]
I'm sure you'll be able to rate the experience soon, ala Uber Style, and the experience will be awesome.
Yodel is owned by Shop Direct Group (Littlewoods, Very, etc). Amazon do have a minor stake though.
One of the reasons I hesitate to use Amazon Now is that big "suggested tip" field. I don't tip the UPS delivery person, why should I tip my Amazon Now delivery person? What's been the norm for you all?
Disclaimer: I have never used Amazon now, and don't see myself using it even though it is available to me. I also have no idea how the whole operation works before it leaves the warehouse.
Does your UPS package get delivered in an hour? Do you tip a pizza delivery driver?
Personally I think it depends on how much work the person doing the delivery did before the delivery to help get it done fast. So for food delivery, usually the drivers will not cook the food, but will put together the bag, double check everything, and add in any extras like sauces, utensils, rice, etc. So if the person for Amazon Now is the one putting the order together and double checking it before loading it into their car, I would think that they are more in line with food delivery than UPS drivers.
Also something that takes away from how much I would give is that restaurants usually share some of the tips with in store workers who made the food. With that in mind I'd definitely tip less.
Does your UPS package get delivered in an hour? Do you tip a pizza delivery driver?
Personally I think it depends on how much work the person doing the delivery did before the delivery to help get it done fast. So for food delivery, usually the drivers will not cook the food, but will put together the bag, double check everything, and add in any extras like sauces, utensils, rice, etc. So if the person for Amazon Now is the one putting the order together and double checking it before loading it into their car, I would think that they are more in line with food delivery than UPS drivers.
Also something that takes away from how much I would give is that restaurants usually share some of the tips with in store workers who made the food. With that in mind I'd definitely tip less.
> Does your UPS package get delivered in an hour?
If what you are paying for with Amazon Now is rapid delivery service, then why would you tip for the service you are paying for. UPS delivers in a time set by the level of service that is paid for. Presumably, Amazon Now does the same thing.
> Do you tip a pizza delivery driver?
I did before pizza parlors started adding an additional separate charge for delivery service, which signals that it is now service compris.
If what you are paying for with Amazon Now is rapid delivery service, then why would you tip for the service you are paying for. UPS delivers in a time set by the level of service that is paid for. Presumably, Amazon Now does the same thing.
> Do you tip a pizza delivery driver?
I did before pizza parlors started adding an additional separate charge for delivery service, which signals that it is now service compris.
You don't tip your food delivery drivers? Are you in the US?
The pizza delivery driver doesn't get any of that delivery charge. Not tipping the driver because of the delivery charge is essentially punishing the driver for the owner's desire to take their tips.
The owner taking their tips is punishing the driver. It's not my responsibility to insulate the driver from that. I am paying a surcharge for delivery. That's reasonable. If the driver doesn't get the cut of that he feels he deserves, he can work somewhere else.
This is the problem with tipping culture. It's misleading to advertise a delivery charge and then still expect to customers to tip, and when the driver and the customer are in disagreement or even just unaware of the other's position, it leads to people looking (and maybe feeling) like assholes on both sides.
By this same argument, you might as well not ever tip. I'd be happy for our society to eliminate tipping and replace it with better wages. But, until that happy day, there are people to whom it is customary to give tips, and food delivery people are among them.
...said someone who has obviously never worked for tips.
No one is holding a gun to their heads though.
I don't like tipping, I do it when I'm in the US because it is a norm but overall it feels like a scam; as I don't get any better service or quality than anywhere else in the world where the wait staff gets a decent wage.
I get the feeling lots of tip workers hide behind the argument that they "don't get paid enough" because they simply make more money that way. Meanwhile, kitchen staff generally work harder and longer hours and don't often get their share.
I don't like tipping, I do it when I'm in the US because it is a norm but overall it feels like a scam; as I don't get any better service or quality than anywhere else in the world where the wait staff gets a decent wage.
I get the feeling lots of tip workers hide behind the argument that they "don't get paid enough" because they simply make more money that way. Meanwhile, kitchen staff generally work harder and longer hours and don't often get their share.
> The pizza delivery driver doesn't get any of that delivery charge.
When I worked delivery, back in the mid-Triassic period (or early 1990s, whatever), I got $1/delivery (which was better than mileage reimbursement would have been) even though we didn't charge for delivery, and similar practices seemed to be common at other places providing similar services. If the now dominant practice of adding service charges for delivery has been accompanied by eliminating delivery pay to the people providing the service, well, that sucks for drivers, in the same way that it would suck if a restaurant put a "service included" charge on the bill and but paid its service staff the same base (below-minimum-wage) pay that is typical in tipped positions.
OTOH, if that dishonest practice factors into my decisions at all, it would factor into my decision not to frequent the business in question, rather than a decision to subsidize the bad practice by paying both an in-the-bill charge for the service and a tip for the service.
When I worked delivery, back in the mid-Triassic period (or early 1990s, whatever), I got $1/delivery (which was better than mileage reimbursement would have been) even though we didn't charge for delivery, and similar practices seemed to be common at other places providing similar services. If the now dominant practice of adding service charges for delivery has been accompanied by eliminating delivery pay to the people providing the service, well, that sucks for drivers, in the same way that it would suck if a restaurant put a "service included" charge on the bill and but paid its service staff the same base (below-minimum-wage) pay that is typical in tipped positions.
OTOH, if that dishonest practice factors into my decisions at all, it would factor into my decision not to frequent the business in question, rather than a decision to subsidize the bad practice by paying both an in-the-bill charge for the service and a tip for the service.
It's illegal for restaurants to pay below minimum wage. If a server's wages including tips do not add up to the regular minimum wage, the restaurant is supposed to pay out the difference.
How often that actually happens, I have no idea.
How often that actually happens, I have no idea.
>The pizza delivery driver doesn't get any of that delivery charge.
Yes they do, in the form of being paid for mileage (at least I did when I was a delivery driver).
Yes they do, in the form of being paid for mileage (at least I did when I was a delivery driver).
The separate charge doesn't actually go to the driver. You should really tip your delivery driver.
Then they should really not charge me. In these cases, I just stop going to that business because not tipping will increase the chance of bad service. Personally I would like to see an end with all tipping, especially since there is an implicit threat associated with it (such as not tipping can get you spit in your food, which I consider a form of assault and battery).
It mostly depends on whether the person doing the delivery is basically working for tips or whether they're being paid a reasonable wage. My understanding with pizza and other fast food delivery is that the drivers are basically working for tips--therefore you pay them.
In general, outside of that, I wouldn't normally pay for delivery that already has a delivery charge built in. But then, I'm sure some people are more inclined to tip a dollar or three for random personal services than I am even when the services are utterly routine (i.e. the driver didn't do something special for you).
In general, outside of that, I wouldn't normally pay for delivery that already has a delivery charge built in. But then, I'm sure some people are more inclined to tip a dollar or three for random personal services than I am even when the services are utterly routine (i.e. the driver didn't do something special for you).
> Personally I think it depends on how much work the person doing the delivery did before the delivery to help get it done fast
In this case, the driver is just driving from a facility to my door.
But the twist here is, I do not expect nor even WANT the driver to put in "extra" effort to drive that route faster. Just follow the speed limit, and pick a reasonable route. That's all. I want you to drive exactly like a robotic car would. Those are my streets you're driving on, I don't need any maniacs striving for the best tip.
In this case, the driver is just driving from a facility to my door.
But the twist here is, I do not expect nor even WANT the driver to put in "extra" effort to drive that route faster. Just follow the speed limit, and pick a reasonable route. That's all. I want you to drive exactly like a robotic car would. Those are my streets you're driving on, I don't need any maniacs striving for the best tip.
Then tip more if you think the driver drove especially safely. :)
Agreed. I honestly don't understand why Amazon made that choice.
It makes the delivery much more awkward and transactional. Probably one of the most brilliant things Uber did was eliminating tips.
It makes the delivery much more awkward and transactional. Probably one of the most brilliant things Uber did was eliminating tips.
Amazon Flex (Prime Now delivery drivers) pays $18-25 per hour. Considering how small margins are, the driver pay quite possibly comes enitrely out of the tip.
There's a tip field? Is there a "shipping cost"? If there's both, that is a full stop for me. This will push Amazon's pricing above local pricing for me. Amazon wants me to willingly add 10-15% to my purchase price? Come on.
Tip is optional and you can change your tip amount within 48 hours of delivery. I'm not sure if drivers can see what the customer tipped during the delivery but in case you feel that they might do a shitty job because of no tip you can just add a tip and then change it to 0.
With that being said I'm also not feeling the whole tip thing because the wages should cover all that.
With that being said I'm also not feeling the whole tip thing because the wages should cover all that.
The tip field was pre-populated, I changed it to 0. It's up to them to pay their drivers. (Sample size: 1 delivery)
I guess i was part of trials in Northern New Jersey - a random guy showed up in a beaten up car (i noticed because it had pretty nasty oil smoke coming out of the tailpipes, almost cartoon-like).
He was wearing an "amazon now" t-shirt, but then after having me sign a delivery slip, stuck around awkwardly expecting a tip. Not a good experience.
Can we agree already to not have to tip? I don't want Amazon to realize this money-saving practice at my expense. We don't tip UPS, we shouldn't tip these guys. Nobody tips me for pushing code to git.
The trend nowadays seems to be for everyone to ask for tips. I guess I kinda understand as it costs them nothing to do so and they definitely don't lose anything (and only serve to gain) by asking / soliciting for tips.
They don't lose anything in the short term, but look what tipping did to the restaurant industry in the long term. As tips become standard, businesses use them as a reason to keep wages low - in some cases lower than minimum wage.
That only explains why they would solicit tips, not why they solicit tips more nowadays.
Better yet, put the tip in the app, with a notification that pops up after delivery asking you:
* How would you rate the delivery experience? (multiple dimensions here)
* Do you want to tip your courier?
* How would you rate the delivery experience? (multiple dimensions here)
* Do you want to tip your courier?
That seems more ideal, and gives the drivers an incentive to be courteous and professional and not "stick around".
A great thing about Uber is the lack of expectation of tip, compared to taxi drivers who can be surly if you don't tip 25%.
So I realize this isn't what you were going for, but TextSecure does tip for pushing code to git https://whispersystems.org/blog/bithub/
Wow, that's terrible. I don't tip my mailman, why the hell would I tip an amazon delivery boy.
I see the appeal for people looking to work, but as a customer I strongly prefer UPS, FedEx or USPS.
Last week I got a phone call: "Hi, are you home right now?"
It turns out it was actually an Amazon Logistics delivery person, but that still isn't a question I really want to answer over the phone to some random person.
Last week I got a phone call: "Hi, are you home right now?"
It turns out it was actually an Amazon Logistics delivery person, but that still isn't a question I really want to answer over the phone to some random person.
Would you feel better if the person said "Hi, I work for UPS; are you home right now?"? There's no authentication built into the phone call. Perhaps Amazon should use their apps to facilitate that kind of communication with something like a push message?
UPS/Fedex/USPS have figured out how to reliably enter apartment buildings on their own (USPS uses a key, I presume UPS/Fedex use some numeric code convention). Amazon randos call you and make it your problem, as if they have never delivered a no-signature package before.
Nearly every time I've used Amazon, they've surprised me with something crappy and I'm left wondering how they're so popular. Recently, they displayed a "guaranteed delivery by this day if you order within the next 45 seconds" on the checkout confirmation. I had been paying attention to the cutoff time and the time had just previously said 40 minutes. All the digging I did supported the conclusion that both times were a fictional dark pattern to drive order completion.
Never mind the clingy stalker follow up spam when you price check an item outside of incognito mode.
Nearly every time I've used Amazon, they've surprised me with something crappy and I'm left wondering how they're so popular. Recently, they displayed a "guaranteed delivery by this day if you order within the next 45 seconds" on the checkout confirmation. I had been paying attention to the cutoff time and the time had just previously said 40 minutes. All the digging I did supported the conclusion that both times were a fictional dark pattern to drive order completion.
Never mind the clingy stalker follow up spam when you price check an item outside of incognito mode.
> they've surprised me with something crappy
What are they surprising you with? I've done loads of orders with Amazon and it's basically always what I ordered. Once I got some cheap knockoffs, but was able to easily return it. That's out of a few hundred orders.
As for the timeout stuff, they should definitely stop calling it a guarantee. Most of the time it's correct, and fairly often I'll get a package much quicker than it indicates, but I'd say about 10-15% of packages are later than the 2-day guarantee.
What are they surprising you with? I've done loads of orders with Amazon and it's basically always what I ordered. Once I got some cheap knockoffs, but was able to easily return it. That's out of a few hundred orders.
As for the timeout stuff, they should definitely stop calling it a guarantee. Most of the time it's correct, and fairly often I'll get a package much quicker than it indicates, but I'd say about 10-15% of packages are later than the 2-day guarantee.
The surprise is about their behavior, not about items received. In the situation I described, the discrepancy between the two times caused me to investigate further. 12 hours later, the same delivery schedule was still available. In other words, they deliberately misstated cutoff times to create a sense of urgency and discourage shopping around or having second thoughts before hitting submit. WTF?
In another instance - they canceled one item from an order, sent no notification of such, and completely erased that item from the order history. I was left scratching my head, until I reviewed emails to see if I really had ordered that item. Again, WTF?
I'm sure they're alright if you're constantly ordering things from Prime or whatever because there are more good instances to outweigh the weirdness, combined with their policy of crediting people to keep them happy and avoid breaking the illusion.
In another instance - they canceled one item from an order, sent no notification of such, and completely erased that item from the order history. I was left scratching my head, until I reviewed emails to see if I really had ordered that item. Again, WTF?
I'm sure they're alright if you're constantly ordering things from Prime or whatever because there are more good instances to outweigh the weirdness, combined with their policy of crediting people to keep them happy and avoid breaking the illusion.
But if I'm expecting a UPS package... How do you authenticate that everyone you email or text hasn't had their computer hacked or stolen?
No, that wouldn't be better, but I have also never gotten such a call from a UPS driver. The UPS driver will just leave the box and go. There was absolutely no reason why this box of baby socks needed them to check with me before leaving it on my front steps.
You are totally correct, but somehow Amazon couriers just opt for the maximum creep factor. UPS will call my apartment call box if I'm one of the people getting a package delivered, and they have the phrasing down. Amazon couriers will often call from their personal cell phone, and just say that it is Amazon and that they have my package. Given the callbox, the call is worthless anyway unless I'm home, but I never answer since it is a rando phone call! Their drivers just need training...
So I imagine the question every self employed person with a car will be asking themselves right now is this: will I make more money driving for Uber or driving for Amazon?
Somebody needs to work out how you drop of packages for Amazon while driving passengers around for Uber.
Actually - not completely crazy - how willing would you be as a passenger to take a few detours to get a saving on your taxi bill?
Actually - not completely crazy - how willing would you be as a passenger to take a few detours to get a saving on your taxi bill?
Hmm. Sounds like an opportunity for a new business? Fluber will spawn itself as a broker to both services -- you just go where the app tells you and pick up your cargo (packages or people) and shuttle them to where the app tells you to go.
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This is starting to sound suspiciously like missions in Grand Theft Auto. Now we need an app that shows you the best places to carjack and a social networking service for people who plan heists.
You'll need to also provide a voip service that will obnoxiously ping you for "entertainment".
Flüber - disintermediating the sharing economy!
Uber has already branched out to meal deliveries, so this is not far from their wheelhouse... no pun intended (actually it was).
For me personally (and I imagine many others), not willing at all. I use Uber when I need to be somewhere quickly, so I'm not going to risk being late so I can save $5.
I'm actually curious if anyone knows how well Uber Pool is working? I've never used it for a few reasons, but a big one is that I don't want to risk another rider pickup causing me delay in getting to my destination.
I'm actually curious if anyone knows how well Uber Pool is working? I've never used it for a few reasons, but a big one is that I don't want to risk another rider pickup causing me delay in getting to my destination.
In London you see them working for food and other delivery services on the side quite often.
Uber Pool for things.
I think that is part of the equation - some drivers may not be interested in having the liability of having passengers in their car?
Well, I presume Amazon Flex would have lower acceptance criteria than Uber. Just because of the different nature of services. For example, if you have an old car, you may not be suitable for Uber.
Why limit to one? Perhaps a fair logistic syndicator, where companies send their delivery requests when they've exhausted their permanent staff capacity.
Maybe something like milkthemiles.com - make the retailers agree to your demand pricing not the inverse (tm)...
Maybe something like milkthemiles.com - make the retailers agree to your demand pricing not the inverse (tm)...
Uber will surely let you deliver packages soon. They already do lunch.
Uber is testing exactly this:
http://techcrunch.com/2015/04/28/uber-is-quietly-testing-a-m...
http://techcrunch.com/2015/04/28/uber-is-quietly-testing-a-m...
I can imagine a near future of driverless vans going all around the city with packages. They show up at your door (or wherever you are) and you get a code on your phone. You enter the code on the van's door. It unlocks and you pick out your package.
The problem would be making sure that people can easily find their packages, and that they don't steal others' packages (which would be easy to check)
The problem would be making sure that people can easily find their packages, and that they don't steal others' packages (which would be easy to check)
An internal robot will put only your package on the loading ramp and close the interior door before opening the exterior door.
I imagine that people will be doing both. I already see a lot of people driving for both Uber and Lyft. Soon there'll be drivers delivering packages and people
why not both?
If you have a bunch of parcels in the boot of your car you deliver them when you are nearby on an Uber call or when you have no uber work.
If you have a bunch of parcels in the boot of your car you deliver them when you are nearby on an Uber call or when you have no uber work.
why couldn't you do both?
Sounds a lot like LaserShip which Amazon already uses sometimes here on the east coast. Minimally trained people delivering last mile packages using their own vehicle. Results are.... mixed.
I had a package delivered by LaserShip last week. The experience was fine for me, it was delivered around noon without damage. A women delivered the package and was driving what seemed to be her personal mini-van with a sticker on the side.
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Interesting. I had no idea LaserShip was using that model. I have only ever seen branded trucks and assumed they were a UPS type of service.
Ditto on the mixed results. Although they once delivered a package to us at like 9PM on a Sunday. Unfortunately it was nothing exciting, hah.
Ditto on the mixed results. Although they once delivered a package to us at like 9PM on a Sunday. Unfortunately it was nothing exciting, hah.
I've had 5 packages in my life delivered by laser ship, and they fucked it up in various ways each time. I hate when I see a laser ship tracking number.
Here in Michigan, I've had quite a number of packages delivered by a company called Prestige. Similar thing: "independent contractors" using their own vehicles. Same mixed results.
Weird. We have a last mile shipper on the west coast they used to use called OnTrac and it seemed to work just fine. I'm not sure if they are still using them though since I think they have a contract with USPS now (even on Sundays).
LaserShip is the absolute worst. I've lost at least 3 packages to them.
I'm surprised they aren't launching with cyclists too. Maybe they don't know the size of the backpack / basket that the delivery person has? I kinda just bike around Toronto for fun / exercise (up to 100kms in a day) and if I didn't have to alter my bike I could consider doing it. Plus it is faster in many parts of the city to bike than to take car or transit.
They are already using bike messengers in Manhattan (maybe elsewhere) for Amazon Now's 1 hour delivery. I'm guessing they just hire out to LazerShip or some other currier service, and give them Amazon jackets.
Aside from that it seems like a horrible waste of non-renewal energy source to let someone drive to an address just to deliver one package.
I wonder... we know two things, one is that an electric motors can get around 90%+ efficiency. The human body I can't recall exactly but if I remember correctly it's centered around 20% or so for most exercises.
Two is that 1 m2 of a solar panel converts around 15-20% of insolation to electricity, whereas 1 m2 of random plants gets about ±0.5%, most crops around 2% and the top performer is sugarcane which is still at just 8%. Typical diet however would probably be 2% efficient crops, a lot of which is then wasted before it gets on your plate, not in the least due to a lot of agricultural output going towards animals who turn it into 'meat-energy' in another inefficient process known as life with food-conversion rates of anywhere between 1.5 feed for 1 poultry, to up to 20 to 1 for cattle.
Lastly while we have regeneration capacity in our feet when say running, when cycling downhill or breaking we regenerate nothing, whereas electric motors can have 20-40% electric regeneration efficiencies when going downhill or breaking.
In short, electric bikes and likely small electric vehicles in general probably beat cycling in terms of energy. Of course this is a pretty narrow perspective. One can argue that solar panels and electric bicycles require massive investments which is an opportunity cost for other energy-efficient processes. One can argue that the cyclists fuelled by food will reduce their other activity (e.g. going to the gym) and thus don't expand any excess energy, or that most electric vehicles today wouldn't be powered by the sun, whereas the vast majority of food (excluding some greenhouses, hydroponics and pot installations) today is. But it's also pretty clear that powering the world with plants (excluding oil etc) doesn't make sense in the long run at significant scale.
Two is that 1 m2 of a solar panel converts around 15-20% of insolation to electricity, whereas 1 m2 of random plants gets about ±0.5%, most crops around 2% and the top performer is sugarcane which is still at just 8%. Typical diet however would probably be 2% efficient crops, a lot of which is then wasted before it gets on your plate, not in the least due to a lot of agricultural output going towards animals who turn it into 'meat-energy' in another inefficient process known as life with food-conversion rates of anywhere between 1.5 feed for 1 poultry, to up to 20 to 1 for cattle.
Lastly while we have regeneration capacity in our feet when say running, when cycling downhill or breaking we regenerate nothing, whereas electric motors can have 20-40% electric regeneration efficiencies when going downhill or breaking.
In short, electric bikes and likely small electric vehicles in general probably beat cycling in terms of energy. Of course this is a pretty narrow perspective. One can argue that solar panels and electric bicycles require massive investments which is an opportunity cost for other energy-efficient processes. One can argue that the cyclists fuelled by food will reduce their other activity (e.g. going to the gym) and thus don't expand any excess energy, or that most electric vehicles today wouldn't be powered by the sun, whereas the vast majority of food (excluding some greenhouses, hydroponics and pot installations) today is. But it's also pretty clear that powering the world with plants (excluding oil etc) doesn't make sense in the long run at significant scale.
At Sidecar we're doing white label 40 minute delivery for a wide variety of merchants with a mix of cars, bikers and walkers.
https://www.side.cr/under-the-hood-a-look-at-sidecars-on-dem...
https://www.side.cr/under-the-hood-a-look-at-sidecars-on-dem...
Every time I see Amazon make an announcement, I'm reminded of this quote by Conan O'Brien:
"Just remember kids, you can do anything you set your mind to, as long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to do it."
Substitute Amazon for Jay Leno in that!
"Just remember kids, you can do anything you set your mind to, as long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to do it."
Substitute Amazon for Jay Leno in that!
This is a big step for Amazon, and one that I can imagine them eventually offering as a service to other companies that need to provide real-time delivery. And, $18 to $25 an hour represents close to a livable wage, although less than it seems once you take into account depreciation of your personal automobile (which is why the future transit and bike options are particularly intriguing.)
But, it also calls out the need for government programs to stop assuming that workers will have a single long-term employer. Obamacare already started this process. We should be developing analogous policies for sick leave, family leave, and retirement savings that are decoupled from your employer.
Nick Hanauer has done good work thinking about what these programs will need to look like: http://www.businessinsider.com/americans-need-a-new-social-c...
But, it also calls out the need for government programs to stop assuming that workers will have a single long-term employer. Obamacare already started this process. We should be developing analogous policies for sick leave, family leave, and retirement savings that are decoupled from your employer.
Nick Hanauer has done good work thinking about what these programs will need to look like: http://www.businessinsider.com/americans-need-a-new-social-c...
> although less than it seems once you take into account depreciation of your personal automobile (which is why the future transit and bike options are particularly intriguing.)
Vehicles depreciate a fair bit when they roll straight out of the parking lot.
Vehicles depreciate over time staying parked in your drive way/garage.
Racking up miles on the odometer will definitely inflict wear and tear, especially in wintery climates (read: salt water corrosion), but depreciation will occur regardless.
Where do most personal vehicles end up? Does everybody resell to dealerships or friends/ family/ co-workers/ random people on Craigslist?
Most people have accepted that the resale value a vehicle will be significantly lower than the purchase price, and honestly I think depreciation should be the least of our concerns.
And with regards for sick leave, family leave, and retirement savings that are decoupled from the employer -- look outside of the US and you will find it.
Vehicles depreciate a fair bit when they roll straight out of the parking lot.
Vehicles depreciate over time staying parked in your drive way/garage.
Racking up miles on the odometer will definitely inflict wear and tear, especially in wintery climates (read: salt water corrosion), but depreciation will occur regardless.
Where do most personal vehicles end up? Does everybody resell to dealerships or friends/ family/ co-workers/ random people on Craigslist?
Most people have accepted that the resale value a vehicle will be significantly lower than the purchase price, and honestly I think depreciation should be the least of our concerns.
And with regards for sick leave, family leave, and retirement savings that are decoupled from the employer -- look outside of the US and you will find it.
> I think depreciation should be the least of our concerns
Here is a superb article showing that depreciation (and fuel) costs 19% of an Uber driver's pay: http://citypaper.net/uberdriver/
So, that's $14.58 to $20.25 instead of $18 to $25.
Here is a superb article showing that depreciation (and fuel) costs 19% of an Uber driver's pay: http://citypaper.net/uberdriver/
So, that's $14.58 to $20.25 instead of $18 to $25.
If you're working 40 hours a week, that translates to $30,000 - $40,000 per year. That's a very livable wage for completely unskilled labor.
Hopefully they pay for car mileage in addition to the $18-$25/hr... (should be 57.5 cents per mile for business miles, apparently)... because that alone could easily amount to $18/hr.
$0.575/mi isn't a good indicator of actual cost. It's a method the IRS created to reduce the complexity of tracking all car expenses separately (good for both taxpayer and IRS). In most cases it's very generous. For example:
* ~$0.30 is for gas, but if you're driving a fuel efficient Prius then your actual per mile cost is lower ($3.00/gal / 50mpg = $0.06/mi; though offset by battery replacement cost, don't know how much that costs or how often) * If your car is over 5 years old, you wouldn't be able to claim depreciation on it. But the standard mileage rate includes depreciation, so you're getting to deduct additional cost if your car is >5 years and you use the standard mileage rate.
That's not to say wear and tear isn't a significant cost...just that your actual cost is usually much lower than the standard mileage rate.
* ~$0.30 is for gas, but if you're driving a fuel efficient Prius then your actual per mile cost is lower ($3.00/gal / 50mpg = $0.06/mi; though offset by battery replacement cost, don't know how much that costs or how often) * If your car is over 5 years old, you wouldn't be able to claim depreciation on it. But the standard mileage rate includes depreciation, so you're getting to deduct additional cost if your car is >5 years and you use the standard mileage rate.
That's not to say wear and tear isn't a significant cost...just that your actual cost is usually much lower than the standard mileage rate.
I agree that there are many explicit and implicit costs to owning and operating a vehicle. I expect the rhetoric from the "employer" side to say this program is great for people who already own a vehicle because that vehicle will be better utilized. My position: I would be very cautious getting involved with a program like this. I'm willing to bet the effective wage is below minimum wage in some regions of the US. If it really made sense for Amazon on an ROIC basis they would just do it in house; and when the numbers work to their benefit, I'm sure they will (drones).
Disclaimer: I don't like Jeff Bezos and would not work for Amazon barring extraordinary circumstances.
Disclaimer: I don't like Jeff Bezos and would not work for Amazon barring extraordinary circumstances.
I'm certain they don't separately pay for mileage.
Also have to factor in the risk of using your car for commercial purposes and/or adding the cost for commercial insurance.
I wonder how long it'll take for an online thievery marketplace will pop-up selling Amazon Flex delivery data. For example, if you know you delivered a $10k gold apple watch (hypothetically), I can bet you that a local thief would pay you at least $100 for you to tell him which house it was delivered to.
In fact, my neighbour's home was broken into last year. Turns out (unbeknownst to us), he apparently had a safe in his home with nearly half a million in value (watches, diamonds etc. Huge surprise to us because we know him as a chubby, nerdy government worker who drives an electric bicycle to work, never would've expected him to have some kind of tony montana thing going on in his house haha). Anyway so we spoke to him and the police after and apparently a small crew broke into his home and went straight for the safe with specialised equipment, i.e. they knew exactly where to go and someone had told them, and they made a massive, massive haul. Imagine you worked at Amazon Flex and delivered a rolex, that's valuable information.
Anyway there are the usual problems with this that you see at eBay or the SR (how do you escrow payments on what obviously must be an illegal online service with anonymous owners, and if you don't have escrow how do you establish trust between merchant and buyer), added to the fact it's pretty easy for the police to trace it back to a delivery man if it happens often enough. Anyway wouldn't be surprised to see it happen within a few years.
In fact, my neighbour's home was broken into last year. Turns out (unbeknownst to us), he apparently had a safe in his home with nearly half a million in value (watches, diamonds etc. Huge surprise to us because we know him as a chubby, nerdy government worker who drives an electric bicycle to work, never would've expected him to have some kind of tony montana thing going on in his house haha). Anyway so we spoke to him and the police after and apparently a small crew broke into his home and went straight for the safe with specialised equipment, i.e. they knew exactly where to go and someone had told them, and they made a massive, massive haul. Imagine you worked at Amazon Flex and delivered a rolex, that's valuable information.
Anyway there are the usual problems with this that you see at eBay or the SR (how do you escrow payments on what obviously must be an illegal online service with anonymous owners, and if you don't have escrow how do you establish trust between merchant and buyer), added to the fact it's pretty easy for the police to trace it back to a delivery man if it happens often enough. Anyway wouldn't be surprised to see it happen within a few years.
I've never received an Amazon package that listed its contents on the outside. The reason for this appears fairly obvious.
But if you're delivering on the product launch day and you've delivered 20 of the same shape/size/weight with the same sender information (no matter how obscure) it would be easy to infer.
What valuable product that's easy to fence are the masses ordering from Amazon on launch day? Amazon isn't the Apple Store.
Also, in what world are people casually priming a new rolex? I see it as either:
- a stretch luxury purchase for the average person -- I'm going to expect white glove service from a high end jeweller. Or possibly a shady Craigslist deal. - a 1%er is going to send their personal shopper to pick it out and bring it to them
- a stretch luxury purchase for the average person -- I'm going to expect white glove service from a high end jeweller. Or possibly a shady Craigslist deal. - a 1%er is going to send their personal shopper to pick it out and bring it to them
With a few exceptions (such as your example above), the expensive packages go to the expensive houses with the expensive security systems.
I agree there is a certain amount of risk in crowd sourcing this, but I can't see the "data" being super valuable.
I agree there is a certain amount of risk in crowd sourcing this, but I can't see the "data" being super valuable.
How does Amazon Flex make this a bigger risk? The packages are already delivered by somebody who could do the same already.
Great idea on Amazon's part; they're already set up to handle the logistics for this kind of last-mile delivery stuff.
Of course, one could argue that moves like this and pushing us towards the gig economy are a net negative for our future economy. They seem to be compensating fairly (for now?) at least.
Of course, one could argue that moves like this and pushing us towards the gig economy are a net negative for our future economy. They seem to be compensating fairly (for now?) at least.
Considering they are pushing cost for vehicles, vehicle maintenance, insurance, payroll taxes, fuel, unemployment insurance and uniform onto their workers, I'd say they are paying peanuts. You'd have to shortsighted to see why this is worse than a normal job. I'd also guess that the rates will drop the minute they get some traction, just like Uber.
Why shouldn't they do that? I am pushing cost for ingredients, kitchen maintenance, insurance, etc to a restaurant when I eat out, and that's great. That's what they specialize in.
Have drivers handle the driving side, and dispatchers pay when they need someone to deliver a person or parcel. There's no reason they have to be linked.
Have drivers handle the driving side, and dispatchers pay when they need someone to deliver a person or parcel. There's no reason they have to be linked.
My theory is these jobs need to last only long enough for society to get it's head out of it's ass and introduce a universal basic income policy
I agree. It's truly scary how willingly people welcome a system that commoditizes the workforce literally nothing more than a number per hour. I mean, the absolute only thing standing in the way of everybody who signs up to work for Amazon Flex is a self driving car, same with Uber. I understand that supply for these jobs is pretty elastic, but if the workforce doesn't protect themselves, people who become dependent on companies with payment schemes like this will quickly find themselves hurt. A basic income would offer so much economic and social protection for a workforce for tasks like this.
> and introduce a universal basic income policy
here we go again with this... What's wrong with such jobs ? AS mentioned by Amazon you don't need to work 9 to 5, you can just work for extra if you need. Even if you HAD basic income this kind of part-time job could make sense to make a bit more money that the nothing you would get to survive on your own.
here we go again with this... What's wrong with such jobs ? AS mentioned by Amazon you don't need to work 9 to 5, you can just work for extra if you need. Even if you HAD basic income this kind of part-time job could make sense to make a bit more money that the nothing you would get to survive on your own.
Nothing is inherently wrong with the job per se, it's that the general acceptance of a commoditized workforce is dangerous in that it circumvents many other protections offered by regular jobs (not that those are that much better) in disguise because it has a relatively high hourly rate. Your effective hourly rate after paying for health insurance plus other company provided benefits is likely much closer to normal rates.
Basic income is a method to prevent wage slavery* as well as many other negative side affects of having to work to try and provide even the basic necessities (shelter and food). This job would be awesome in the world of basic income because people wouldn't have to worry about how they are going to feed themselves, but would be able to work extra to be able to afford the quality of life they prefer. Basic income is about rebalancing the power structures between employer and employee, and giving the power back to the people without it (the employees.)
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery
Basic income is a method to prevent wage slavery* as well as many other negative side affects of having to work to try and provide even the basic necessities (shelter and food). This job would be awesome in the world of basic income because people wouldn't have to worry about how they are going to feed themselves, but would be able to work extra to be able to afford the quality of life they prefer. Basic income is about rebalancing the power structures between employer and employee, and giving the power back to the people without it (the employees.)
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery
> basic income
this is not the place for discussing this here, but the inherent problem with this basic income idea is that there's no way to provide such money in developed countries which are already indebted to the bone. Unless you decide to seize savings and declare the country a communist dictatorship or something.
this is not the place for discussing this here, but the inherent problem with this basic income idea is that there's no way to provide such money in developed countries which are already indebted to the bone. Unless you decide to seize savings and declare the country a communist dictatorship or something.
Well, since you decided to discuss it anyway... :)
Basic income is wealth redistribution function. There is a massive income inequality problem in the US (a trivial google search will reveal, if you aren't aware of already), and a basic income would rebalance taxes as well as replace some other social programs in order to pay for it. See this reddit post for more info about income inequality and taxes.
https://www.reddit.com/r/BasicIncome/comments/3mqnyg/how_inc...
Basic income is wealth redistribution function. There is a massive income inequality problem in the US (a trivial google search will reveal, if you aren't aware of already), and a basic income would rebalance taxes as well as replace some other social programs in order to pay for it. See this reddit post for more info about income inequality and taxes.
https://www.reddit.com/r/BasicIncome/comments/3mqnyg/how_inc...
> Wealth redistribution
Well you spelled it, you need a communist like system to do that (i.e. take money through taxes, redistribute it through massive inefficiencies, and make sure politicians get their hefty share when the money flows).
Inequality is a false problem. It's a problem if people get poorer, but all indicators for the past 50 years show that everyone is getting richer, while rich ones are getting richer faster (which is obvious why, when you have more capital you are much more likely to increase it faster). As long as even the modest classes are getting richer every generation, everyone's life is improving.
Well you spelled it, you need a communist like system to do that (i.e. take money through taxes, redistribute it through massive inefficiencies, and make sure politicians get their hefty share when the money flows).
Inequality is a false problem. It's a problem if people get poorer, but all indicators for the past 50 years show that everyone is getting richer, while rich ones are getting richer faster (which is obvious why, when you have more capital you are much more likely to increase it faster). As long as even the modest classes are getting richer every generation, everyone's life is improving.
> redistribute it through massive inefficiencies
Actually, if a state does any welfare, it probably has this problem already. Basic income offers significant reductions in those inefficiencies by simplifying the process of selecting eligible people (and retiring the required bureaucracy).
> and make sure politicians get their hefty share when the money flows
That you have under every system, from despotism to socialism to capitalist democracy.
> Inequality is a false problem. It's a problem if people get poorer, but all indicators for the past 50 years show that everyone is getting richer, while rich ones are getting richer faster (which is obvious why, when you have more capital you are much more likely to increase it faster). As long as even the modest classes are getting richer every generation, everyone's life is improving.
Inequality will be a false problem when the bottom level of society won't be starving to death or due to lack of basic health care. Again, basic income proposes turning inequality into a non-problem by securing a decent, humane minimum level for everyone.
Actually, if a state does any welfare, it probably has this problem already. Basic income offers significant reductions in those inefficiencies by simplifying the process of selecting eligible people (and retiring the required bureaucracy).
> and make sure politicians get their hefty share when the money flows
That you have under every system, from despotism to socialism to capitalist democracy.
> Inequality is a false problem. It's a problem if people get poorer, but all indicators for the past 50 years show that everyone is getting richer, while rich ones are getting richer faster (which is obvious why, when you have more capital you are much more likely to increase it faster). As long as even the modest classes are getting richer every generation, everyone's life is improving.
Inequality will be a false problem when the bottom level of society won't be starving to death or due to lack of basic health care. Again, basic income proposes turning inequality into a non-problem by securing a decent, humane minimum level for everyone.
> Actually, if a state does any welfare, it probably has this problem already. Basic income offers significant reductions in those inefficiencies by simplifying the process of selecting eligible people (and retiring the required bureaucracy).
Never been proven that UBI would reduce the inefficiencies. The State find ways to be inefficient even when it's not supposed to be.
> That you have under every system, from despotism to socialism to capitalist democracy.
Nope, if you did not have a Big government doing wealth redistribution in the first place you would not have much money being lost in such transactions because the flow would be very limited. Look at the US Federal budget, how humongous it has become.
> Inequality will be a false problem when the bottom level of society won't be starving to death or due to lack of basic health care.
Oh come on. Mass starvation is a thing of the past, check Wikipedia, the last starvations happened more than 30 years ago and the only recent ones are due to conflicts mainly - poor people do not die anymore of hunger anywhere - we have large amounts of excess food, even in the poorest places of the world, like the countrysides of China.
> Again, basic income proposes turning inequality into a non-problem by securing a decent, humane minimum level for everyone.
The advocates of UBI fail to understand that by raising the minimum earnings to everyone, you will probably make prices go up everywhere (increased taxes + prices adjustments based on purchasing power) so it won't result in any meaningful difference.
Never been proven that UBI would reduce the inefficiencies. The State find ways to be inefficient even when it's not supposed to be.
> That you have under every system, from despotism to socialism to capitalist democracy.
Nope, if you did not have a Big government doing wealth redistribution in the first place you would not have much money being lost in such transactions because the flow would be very limited. Look at the US Federal budget, how humongous it has become.
> Inequality will be a false problem when the bottom level of society won't be starving to death or due to lack of basic health care.
Oh come on. Mass starvation is a thing of the past, check Wikipedia, the last starvations happened more than 30 years ago and the only recent ones are due to conflicts mainly - poor people do not die anymore of hunger anywhere - we have large amounts of excess food, even in the poorest places of the world, like the countrysides of China.
> Again, basic income proposes turning inequality into a non-problem by securing a decent, humane minimum level for everyone.
The advocates of UBI fail to understand that by raising the minimum earnings to everyone, you will probably make prices go up everywhere (increased taxes + prices adjustments based on purchasing power) so it won't result in any meaningful difference.
Got some sources on the 'everyone getting richer' claim? I have never seen a single statistic suggesting that, after accounting for factors such as inflation... maybe I have some selection bias, but everything I have read shows that the middle class has gotten steadily poorer over the last 30 years or so.
Also, not every form of redistribution is automatically 'communist'... I don't see many people who advocate basic income also suggesting that we turn over means of production to the state - just raising some taxes, and trying to make the way that we redistribute wealth more simple/efficient.
I don't know enough about it to really argue either way, but your arguments don't make much sense to me without more context.
Also, not every form of redistribution is automatically 'communist'... I don't see many people who advocate basic income also suggesting that we turn over means of production to the state - just raising some taxes, and trying to make the way that we redistribute wealth more simple/efficient.
I don't know enough about it to really argue either way, but your arguments don't make much sense to me without more context.
>Got some sources on the 'everyone getting richer' claim? I have never seen a single statistic suggesting that
Then you are not looking very hard:
http://ourworldindata.org/data/growth-and-distribution-of-pr...
> Also, not every form of redistribution is automatically 'communist'...
Well UBI is a welfare kind of policy and needs basically a strong State to actually work in practice. Most strong States lean towards socialism and communism because they justify their existence this way ("if we were not there, you would not have welfare, so let us increase the government budget size further") - a common trope to get folks elected.
Then you are not looking very hard:
http://ourworldindata.org/data/growth-and-distribution-of-pr...
> Also, not every form of redistribution is automatically 'communist'...
Well UBI is a welfare kind of policy and needs basically a strong State to actually work in practice. Most strong States lean towards socialism and communism because they justify their existence this way ("if we were not there, you would not have welfare, so let us increase the government budget size further") - a common trope to get folks elected.
They'll be deprecated as soon as self driving cars become viable. The same goes for most jobs like this, technology will catch up eventually and make them obsolote.
I don't know why you're getting downvoted, that's precisely the problem with most jobs like this.
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I'm still waiting to see cashiers disappear in supermarkets. Or bakers, since bread and cake production could be completely automatized by now. Strangely they are not going away. I wonder why...
People who predict extinction of jobs are usually wrong.
People who predict extinction of jobs are usually wrong.
Even in the tiny rural community I live in, cashiers are being replaced by automated systems in large stores. Smaller stores will probably continue to have cashiers until forever, but we're not talking about 100% of cashiers going away, we're talking about some percentage of that. If half of the available jobs in a market vanish, that will have significant and devastating effects, regardless of how they're lost. Especially for jobs like cashiering, because there are limited places for cashiers to go, and this problem will eventually effect lots of jobs that have no up front professional training requirement (and perhaps many that do, but that's its own discussion.)
It's only a matter of time, for example, until Domino's pizza production is automated. The only reason we haven't seen this yet is because hiring humans is cheaper than solving the complex automation problem this presents. But technology continues to get cheaper. When that swings the other way, your pizza will get made by robots. Pizza delivery by robots is already a solved problem, just waiting for the costs to skew the right way. In short: at the speed at which technological problems get solved, it's unlikely we will have even adequately discussed the ramifications of the problem before it arrives on our doorstep.
It's only a matter of time, for example, until Domino's pizza production is automated. The only reason we haven't seen this yet is because hiring humans is cheaper than solving the complex automation problem this presents. But technology continues to get cheaper. When that swings the other way, your pizza will get made by robots. Pizza delivery by robots is already a solved problem, just waiting for the costs to skew the right way. In short: at the speed at which technological problems get solved, it's unlikely we will have even adequately discussed the ramifications of the problem before it arrives on our doorstep.
I don't know how it is in America, I live in the Netherlands, but I haven't interacted with a cashier in a supermarket for a very long time. Every supermarket has self-checkout, and still some cashiers for people who don't want it, of course. But a lot less cashiers than a few years ago.
You grab a scanner at the entrance, scan all your purchages and then you put the scanner away and pay at a terminal. The terminal prints out your receipt, which you can scan to open the exit. You will sometimes (this has never happened to me, but I've seen it to other people) be picked by the system for a random check to see if you're not stealing anything.
It is a really pleasant system.
You grab a scanner at the entrance, scan all your purchages and then you put the scanner away and pay at a terminal. The terminal prints out your receipt, which you can scan to open the exit. You will sometimes (this has never happened to me, but I've seen it to other people) be picked by the system for a random check to see if you're not stealing anything.
It is a really pleasant system.
In the US, our self-checkout is a machine that stops the transaction and complains if you so much as breathe on the scale. It's terribly awkward to use, and so I much prefer to use a live cashier rather than suffer the incessant blathering of a machine that doesn't even bag my groceries for me.
I've not seen those machines. The ones I've seen you just scan everything as you put it in your bag, and then you pay. No cashier will bag your groceries for you either, and they will laugh at you if you ask. You do that yourself here, either way.
That's interesting about the bagging. One of the bigger issues with this in the US is that people are just really poor grocery baggers most of the time compared to someone whose job it is.
When there are only a handful of these self-checkouts, you end up with a situation where it is often quicker to wait for the line with the cashier and bagger because they just process customers SO MUCH FASTER.
In college I knew someone who was a grocery bagger for a while, and when we'd go to the store he'd bag his stuff and I'd bag mine. The speed and thoughtfulness that went into the placement of various things in his bag was rather humbling...almost akin to watching an expert Tetris player in the zone.
So ultimately more machines could help solve the long line issue, but that is still definitely a factor as it stands today. Given that grocery stores often leave most of their checkout lanes unattended, I'd love to see more converted to self-checkout to increase overall checkout speed.
When there are only a handful of these self-checkouts, you end up with a situation where it is often quicker to wait for the line with the cashier and bagger because they just process customers SO MUCH FASTER.
In college I knew someone who was a grocery bagger for a while, and when we'd go to the store he'd bag his stuff and I'd bag mine. The speed and thoughtfulness that went into the placement of various things in his bag was rather humbling...almost akin to watching an expert Tetris player in the zone.
So ultimately more machines could help solve the long line issue, but that is still definitely a factor as it stands today. Given that grocery stores often leave most of their checkout lanes unattended, I'd love to see more converted to self-checkout to increase overall checkout speed.
That sounds like a nice system. In the US we don't have scanners you pick up at the entrance - it's more like you do the part the cashiers used to do. You pull up to a scanner, scan everything in your cart, bag everything, then put it back in your cart and pay at the machine.
A scale underneath the bagging area keeps tabs on everything you can to make sure you're not cheating the system. (Still, I've heard stories of people checking out all produce as watermelons.)
A scale underneath the bagging area keeps tabs on everything you can to make sure you're not cheating the system. (Still, I've heard stories of people checking out all produce as watermelons.)
That does sound less pleasant. Now that I'm thinking about that, I've encountered a system like that once. I think that was one of the first supermarkets trialing self-checkout. The system disappeared soon after and got replaced by what I've described.
It is quite easy to cheat the current system, though the random sampling helps some. I think someone somewhere made a decision that it is worth it to improve customer satisfaction and deal with some losses, but I have no idea.
It is quite easy to cheat the current system, though the random sampling helps some. I think someone somewhere made a decision that it is worth it to improve customer satisfaction and deal with some losses, but I have no idea.
How does that system handle produce? That's one of the big reasons why automated checkout works like it does in the US (using checkout stations and scales).
Most (all?) supermarkets require you to weigh produce yourself, even when making use of regular checkout. There are several scales with a bunch of buttons in the produce section, you put your produce of preference on there and press the button to identify it. Then you get a sticker with a barcode/price based on the produce type and weight.
Giant and other grocery stores have handheld scanners, but it's not the greatest user interface. There is definitely room for disruption there.
> It is a really pleasant system.
It is making you a slave worker, since you have to scan items yourself :)
It is making you a slave worker, since you have to scan items yourself :)
I scan the item and put it in my bag. This is less work than putting it in a cart, waiting for the cashier to scan everything and then I pack it in my bag. I'm done a lot faster and have never even thought of it being any more work on my side.
It may help that we never had people to pack your bags for you, which some countries seem to have.
It may help that we never had people to pack your bags for you, which some countries seem to have.
Well in Japan the cashier does a lot more things for you. First they scan stuff. Then they place the items in a different cart in a proper order so that nothing is squashed by whatever is up or down, which makes it easier for you to pack things before you go. They also cut the bread in slices if you wish, or cut some extremities of the larger vegetables for your convenience.
And that's in a country known for automation.
And that's in a country known for automation.
Ah. Here the cashiers have only ever scanned your groceries, and put them on a small conveyor belt that moves them to the side. You'll have to pack your bag yourself, and bread usually comes pre-sliced. I've also seen non-sliced bread being sold, but that is usually accompanied by a machine where you can have it sliced prior to purchase.
And people who refuse to see it are usually blind...
The supermarkets I go to have greatly reduced their cashiers. In most cases by at least half, especially in small shops (3 cashiers has become 2-3 machines and one human).
As for bakers, they don't just make bread and cake.
Excellent video on the subject: CGPGrey - Humans Need Not Apply: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pq-S557XQU
The supermarkets I go to have greatly reduced their cashiers. In most cases by at least half, especially in small shops (3 cashiers has become 2-3 machines and one human).
As for bakers, they don't just make bread and cake.
Excellent video on the subject: CGPGrey - Humans Need Not Apply: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pq-S557XQU
> As for bakers, they don't just make bread and cake.
yet it's still their main product and they are stopping making it even though industrial bread is cheaper. So your point is ?
yet it's still their main product and they are stopping making it even though industrial bread is cheaper. So your point is ?
My point is it's a pretty terrible example for you to pick. Baking is not a low-skill menial job. It's certainly not first in line in the "jobs that will get replaced by a machine" domino line.
It's actually a pretty good example because bread making can be completely automatized starting from ingredients mixing, to baking, packing and delivery to your supermarket.
yet bakers do not disappear. What's not valid about this example?
yet bakers do not disappear. What's not valid about this example?
You seem to be under the impression that baker and industrial bread maker are the same job. They are not. And the latter has long been (mostly) done by machine.
This seems relevant: "There isn’t a rule of economics that says better technology makes more, better jobs for horses. It sounds shockingly dumb to even say that out loud, but swap horses for humans and suddenly people think it sounds about right."
This seems relevant: "There isn’t a rule of economics that says better technology makes more, better jobs for horses. It sounds shockingly dumb to even say that out loud, but swap horses for humans and suddenly people think it sounds about right."
> This seems relevant: "There isn’t a rule of economics that says better technology makes more, better jobs for horses. It sounds shockingly dumb to even say that out loud, but swap horses for humans and suddenly people think it sounds about right."
Except that it does not make sense at all.
Take 200 years ago, most folks were farmers. Take 100 years ago, there were now much more folks working somewhat qualified jobs (where they needed some actual skills) in industries. Take 50-60 years ago, with the creation of the service industries and all the jobs that came with it. And now for the past 30 years, hipsters are getting coding jobs and getting pretty good salaries despite the fact we have been living in a past century of technological revolutions.
And we are far, very far from 100% unemployment.
So your horse analogy has no ground in reality. For the most part, humans have been getting more, and better jobs on the whole, and most people commenting here are holding such higher paying, better jobs around. Thanks to technology.
Except that it does not make sense at all.
Take 200 years ago, most folks were farmers. Take 100 years ago, there were now much more folks working somewhat qualified jobs (where they needed some actual skills) in industries. Take 50-60 years ago, with the creation of the service industries and all the jobs that came with it. And now for the past 30 years, hipsters are getting coding jobs and getting pretty good salaries despite the fact we have been living in a past century of technological revolutions.
And we are far, very far from 100% unemployment.
So your horse analogy has no ground in reality. For the most part, humans have been getting more, and better jobs on the whole, and most people commenting here are holding such higher paying, better jobs around. Thanks to technology.
> Take 50-60 years ago, with the creation of the service industries and all the jobs that came with it. And now for the past 30 years, hipsters are getting coding jobs and getting pretty good salaries despite the fact we have been living in a past century of technological revolutions.
The qualitative difference between now and 100 years ago is that those hipsters gave brains to the machines. The shift to service industries occured because machines replaced human muscle power. The hipsters started with replacing human precision, and now they're replacing human cognitive capabilities. Services sector is not safe.
It's also important to note what kinds of jobs are being created nowadays. A lot of them are "bullshit jobs" - make-believe work or elements of zero-sum-games like (big part of) advertising industry. Work has been disconnected from benefit it brings, we're literally (although usually indirectly) inventing nonsense tasks because we need to have something for people to do and not starve.
The qualitative difference between now and 100 years ago is that those hipsters gave brains to the machines. The shift to service industries occured because machines replaced human muscle power. The hipsters started with replacing human precision, and now they're replacing human cognitive capabilities. Services sector is not safe.
It's also important to note what kinds of jobs are being created nowadays. A lot of them are "bullshit jobs" - make-believe work or elements of zero-sum-games like (big part of) advertising industry. Work has been disconnected from benefit it brings, we're literally (although usually indirectly) inventing nonsense tasks because we need to have something for people to do and not starve.
> yet bakers do not disappear. What's not valid about this example?
They transform. "Bakeries" become just a pick-up point, where you buy bread that was baked in scale (probably in industrial ovens) and delivered to the store. Bakery employees nowadays have less to do with baking than McDonald's employees with frying fries (they still do something to them).
They transform. "Bakeries" become just a pick-up point, where you buy bread that was baked in scale (probably in industrial ovens) and delivered to the store. Bakery employees nowadays have less to do with baking than McDonald's employees with frying fries (they still do something to them).
cashiers are getting extincted little by little, supermarkets all have self checkin, macdonalds rlies heavily on it, train systems in many countries have automated lines, bakers have long been replaced by industrial ovens and breads in EVERY supermarket and they are now low qualified workers helped by electronic ovens who unfreeze breads instead of workers. don't make any mistake as technology evolves it becomes cheaper to replace a low-skill worker by a robot and this trend will likely raise until it is much much much more cheaper to get a robot than a worker (this is probably already cheaper to have all selfcheckin than cashiers but companies are keeping them for social and ethical reason, my thinking being that those ethical bareers tends to get slimmer when cost difference increase)
> cashiers are getting extincted little by little,
Cashiers are still alive and well in Japan, thank you for asking.
> Supermarkets all have self checkin
Not everywhere and even where there is i see way more people queuing for the cashier queue than going for self checking but maybe it's different the Californian world or wherever you are living.
> ovens and breads in EVERY supermarket
I'm obviously talking about local breadshops in cities. they are alive and well, once again, and not going bankrupt. Quality still matters.
> train systems in many countries have automated lines
Yes, but how many have automated trains ? it's technically possible for a long time yet trains are still driven by people. It's way more simple to automate a train than a car yet it's not happening. Strange, huh ?
I'm just making observations based on real life - the world has not massively been robotised since the 90s (it has certainly happened in many manufacturing plants but the "worker"/"human face" is very resilient when it comes to local services).
Cashiers are still alive and well in Japan, thank you for asking.
> Supermarkets all have self checkin
Not everywhere and even where there is i see way more people queuing for the cashier queue than going for self checking but maybe it's different the Californian world or wherever you are living.
> ovens and breads in EVERY supermarket
I'm obviously talking about local breadshops in cities. they are alive and well, once again, and not going bankrupt. Quality still matters.
> train systems in many countries have automated lines
Yes, but how many have automated trains ? it's technically possible for a long time yet trains are still driven by people. It's way more simple to automate a train than a car yet it's not happening. Strange, huh ?
I'm just making observations based on real life - the world has not massively been robotised since the 90s (it has certainly happened in many manufacturing plants but the "worker"/"human face" is very resilient when it comes to local services).
You keep making wiiild claims based on "I don't see it happening (as much as you)". Don't you travel?
> I'm obviously talking about local breadshops in cities. they are alive and well, once again, and not going bankrupt. Quality still matters.
There's less. There's less of all these jobs you mention. You say in another post "but it won't go extinct" - well no, probably not, they'll still exist in some form. Horse carts also exist, but nobody's here saying "Cars have not fully replaced horses".
> It's way more simple to automate a train than a car yet it's not happening. Strange, huh ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_train_operation
This is in effect all over the place. When I went to Berlin I didn't find a single subway train driver.
"It won't happen" is talk from people who didn't want to accept an eventuality a decade ago. Today, it's happening - putting your hands over your eyes is very much unproductive.
> I'm obviously talking about local breadshops in cities. they are alive and well, once again, and not going bankrupt. Quality still matters.
There's less. There's less of all these jobs you mention. You say in another post "but it won't go extinct" - well no, probably not, they'll still exist in some form. Horse carts also exist, but nobody's here saying "Cars have not fully replaced horses".
> It's way more simple to automate a train than a car yet it's not happening. Strange, huh ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_train_operation
This is in effect all over the place. When I went to Berlin I didn't find a single subway train driver.
"It won't happen" is talk from people who didn't want to accept an eventuality a decade ago. Today, it's happening - putting your hands over your eyes is very much unproductive.
> This is in effect all over the place. When I went to Berlin I didn't find a single subway train driver.
I'm not talking about subways, I am talking about normal intercity trains. NONE of them are automated. Anywhere. Check it out.
> "It won't happen" is talk from people who didn't want to accept an eventuality a decade ago. Today, it's happening - putting your hands over your eyes is very much unproductive.
I'm not saying this is not happening, what I am saying is that it's happening at a most slower pace than what all the hipsters on HN claim it's happening, and just like everything else, we are going towards fragmentation and not complete removal of most of these jobs. So the "singularity" dream of some people here that the human race will see all of its jobs done by robots in 20 years, and that we need to think right now about income without jobs (UBI and the like) is pure delirium. Society won't change so fast.
I'm not talking about subways, I am talking about normal intercity trains. NONE of them are automated. Anywhere. Check it out.
> "It won't happen" is talk from people who didn't want to accept an eventuality a decade ago. Today, it's happening - putting your hands over your eyes is very much unproductive.
I'm not saying this is not happening, what I am saying is that it's happening at a most slower pace than what all the hipsters on HN claim it's happening, and just like everything else, we are going towards fragmentation and not complete removal of most of these jobs. So the "singularity" dream of some people here that the human race will see all of its jobs done by robots in 20 years, and that we need to think right now about income without jobs (UBI and the like) is pure delirium. Society won't change so fast.
You need to ask yourself exactly why it's not happening. It's not because it isn't possible, or because humans are better at operating trains. There's simply a lot of opposition to such ideas, and a lot of entrenched interests with political power that keep machines at bay - for now.
> I'm still waiting to see cashiers disappear in supermarkets. Or bakers, since bread and cake production could be completely automatized by now. Strangely they are not going away. I wonder why...
You must be (un)lucky to have avoided the wave of self-service checkout points :). As for bakers, I don't remember when was the last time I saw a bakery that acutally baked anything - the ones I see all have bread and cakes delivered several times a day by whoever owns the franchise.
Also, automation is not a binary proposition - if your central bakery uses big dough machines and industrial baking ovens, it already counts as half-automated, as it employs much less personnel per unit of output as bakeries used to few decades ago :).
You must be (un)lucky to have avoided the wave of self-service checkout points :). As for bakers, I don't remember when was the last time I saw a bakery that acutally baked anything - the ones I see all have bread and cakes delivered several times a day by whoever owns the franchise.
Also, automation is not a binary proposition - if your central bakery uses big dough machines and industrial baking ovens, it already counts as half-automated, as it employs much less personnel per unit of output as bakeries used to few decades ago :).
I would also like to add that large scale bread production is already mostly automated. You will still have local bakeries because fresh bread is nice, and the automation needs large factory halls that are unlikely to be near your home or match your schedule.
Indeed, but the point is that man-made bread > industrial bread in the end. It's not because you can automate something that it create better goods in the end.
If that was the case we would replace cooks with robots for a long time as well.
And of course the list goes on for many, many other professions.
It's obvious that the ones who predict massive automation of most jobs are thinking WAY AHEAD of their life. It's not going to happen anytime soon, no matter how much software and hardware is "eating the world". Making predictions is always a risky business... after all we were all supposed to have flying cars by 2015 and whatever, yet the best piece of tech we have is just a tiny computer in our pockets - that's a great achievement, but it's a little short of the dreams we had 30 years ago.
If that was the case we would replace cooks with robots for a long time as well.
And of course the list goes on for many, many other professions.
It's obvious that the ones who predict massive automation of most jobs are thinking WAY AHEAD of their life. It's not going to happen anytime soon, no matter how much software and hardware is "eating the world". Making predictions is always a risky business... after all we were all supposed to have flying cars by 2015 and whatever, yet the best piece of tech we have is just a tiny computer in our pockets - that's a great achievement, but it's a little short of the dreams we had 30 years ago.
It's also more expensive, and I am fine with industrial bread. I know many, many people who only buy their break from the supermarket and that is all industrialized. Bakeries still exist, but many less do than several years ago.
For automation to be a success it doesn't have to replace 100% of the market, and it's unlikely for it to ever truly reach 100% for the reasons you mention. But that's fine, it'll just slowly keep growing.
For automation to be a success it doesn't have to replace 100% of the market, and it's unlikely for it to ever truly reach 100% for the reasons you mention. But that's fine, it'll just slowly keep growing.
Good, then I agree with you.
Then I hope you will also agree that "extinction" is too strong of a word, and we use it too often around here while in reality most jobs have a hard time disappearing completely, if at all.
On top of that, not sure about where you live, but some supermarkets also have reversed their trend about industrial bread and hire "baker-workers" who actually bake bread on-site (from industrial paste) instead of it being purely delivered for consumption, which is slightly better and fresher, and require human workers.
Then I hope you will also agree that "extinction" is too strong of a word, and we use it too often around here while in reality most jobs have a hard time disappearing completely, if at all.
On top of that, not sure about where you live, but some supermarkets also have reversed their trend about industrial bread and hire "baker-workers" who actually bake bread on-site (from industrial paste) instead of it being purely delivered for consumption, which is slightly better and fresher, and require human workers.
To be fair, I never did use the word extinction. I used deprecated and obsolete, which I stand by. Deprecated jobs may still exist because some people prefer it that way, they'll just become specialists. And they may also be obsolete for the primary market, but as we already discussed some people prefer a higher quality which these specialists might provide.
I'm from the Netherlands, and I haven't heard about the industrial paste thing. I don't think it happens, but maybe it does. In any case, if they do do that, there is no doubt in my mind that they need less workers to perform these tasks than to bake the bread from scratch. So that is still a win for automation.
I'm from the Netherlands, and I haven't heard about the industrial paste thing. I don't think it happens, but maybe it does. In any case, if they do do that, there is no doubt in my mind that they need less workers to perform these tasks than to bake the bread from scratch. So that is still a win for automation.
I've seen that reversed trend, and it's the reason I go to bakeries - the bread in bakery shops is fresher and better even though they don't bake it on-site, but get it delivered from somewhere (I assume a big industrial bakery providing for the entire city) two-three times a day! The supermarket baked-on-site bread is much worse, and looks like a desperate attempt by supermarkets to keep people buying bread there.
> The supermarket baked-on-site bread is much worse, and looks like a desperate attempt by supermarkets to keep people buying bread there.
Oh, I totally agree with you. I was just mentioning that they were reintroducing workers in a process that used to be fully automated.
Oh, I totally agree with you. I was just mentioning that they were reintroducing workers in a process that used to be fully automated.
Are they? Two local markets near me that bake bread on-site use the already employed staff. Putting dough into oven and setting a timer isn't much work, so usually the person behind the meat counter does that.
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The problem with the ongoing commoditization of work is that it causes it to lose value. As a result the economy becomes more efficient. However the question is who benefits from this increase in efficiency?
It certainly isn't the worker, whose labour becomes cheaper every year (there hasn't been an increase in real wages for over a decade now in the US). The consumer certainly benefits from lower prices. However who arguably benefits the most is - as always - the proprietor of the production factors: ie. Amazon, which supplies the jobs, the technology, owns the storage facilities, etc.
Now: As a net result over the whole economy, the efficiency gains achieved with these new work contracts are beneficial. However these gains are unequally distributed between the proprietors (ie. Amazon and it's shareholders) and the employees. While incomes for many employees have stagnated for over a decade, the shareholders of Amazon keep getting richer (https://www.google.com/finance?chdnp=1&chdd=1&chds=1&chdv=1&...) creating more inequality. This is why we need a universal basic income policy. To allow everyone at the very least dignified living conditions.
It certainly isn't the worker, whose labour becomes cheaper every year (there hasn't been an increase in real wages for over a decade now in the US). The consumer certainly benefits from lower prices. However who arguably benefits the most is - as always - the proprietor of the production factors: ie. Amazon, which supplies the jobs, the technology, owns the storage facilities, etc.
Now: As a net result over the whole economy, the efficiency gains achieved with these new work contracts are beneficial. However these gains are unequally distributed between the proprietors (ie. Amazon and it's shareholders) and the employees. While incomes for many employees have stagnated for over a decade, the shareholders of Amazon keep getting richer (https://www.google.com/finance?chdnp=1&chdd=1&chds=1&chdv=1&...) creating more inequality. This is why we need a universal basic income policy. To allow everyone at the very least dignified living conditions.
> However the question is who benefits from this increase in efficiency?
Who benefited from Ford making cars more efficiently ? Their employees as well, since they could buy cars on their own at cheaper prices than the then available cars.
Productivity gains improve life for EVERYONE, even the poorer ones. There's so many examples I don't even know what kind of point you are trying to make here.
Improvements in agriculture make food cheaper as well, which makes it possible for even modest household to have 3 smartphones on top of food of the table, and go on vacation more than 0 times a year.
Sometimes when I read comments here, I get the bizarre impression that nobody has noticed the massive increase of purchasing power that society got in the past 100 years. I must be living in a bubble.
Who benefited from Ford making cars more efficiently ? Their employees as well, since they could buy cars on their own at cheaper prices than the then available cars.
Productivity gains improve life for EVERYONE, even the poorer ones. There's so many examples I don't even know what kind of point you are trying to make here.
Improvements in agriculture make food cheaper as well, which makes it possible for even modest household to have 3 smartphones on top of food of the table, and go on vacation more than 0 times a year.
Sometimes when I read comments here, I get the bizarre impression that nobody has noticed the massive increase of purchasing power that society got in the past 100 years. I must be living in a bubble.
That is textbook trickle down economics which we have had for several decades, and look where it got us. We have some of the worst income inequality in the world, if not the worst.
http://fortune.com/2014/10/31/inequality-wealth-income-us/
http://fortune.com/2014/10/31/inequality-wealth-income-us/
Inequality is bullshit. Inequality even starts at birth, what are you going to do about that? the only remedy to inequality as a whole is a Communist Paradise, and God we know that people do not like the idea of everyone being as equally poor as everyone else.
Inequality, again, does not matter as long as everyone gets richer, including the poorer ones. Which has been the case. Mass starvations have stopped around the world for like 30 years if you have not noticed, and the only remaining ones are usually due to political or conflict issues. The whole world is getting richer, and that is a Greater Good than worrying about the 1% getting richer faster.
Inequality, again, does not matter as long as everyone gets richer, including the poorer ones. Which has been the case. Mass starvations have stopped around the world for like 30 years if you have not noticed, and the only remaining ones are usually due to political or conflict issues. The whole world is getting richer, and that is a Greater Good than worrying about the 1% getting richer faster.
History has shown time and time again that societies can only survive if the difference between the rich and poor stays within certain bounds. The French revolution didn't happen because people were thrilled by the prospects of a democratic system. It happened because the difference between the aristocracy and the peasants grew so large that a few years with a poor harvest were reason enough to topple the whole state. And there are countless other examples in history. If a society wants to survive and remain stable some of the benefits rich people have must also be accessible to the general public (for example health care and education), otherwise social unrest is inevitable (remember occupy wall street?). This does not equate to communism. Neither does it mean that everything is ok just because nobody is starving anymore.
> It happened because the difference between the aristocracy and the peasants grew so large that a few years with a poor harvest were reason enough to topple the whole state.
Pff, looks like you have no idea what you are talking about. Disclaimer, I'm French and what happened is nowhere as simple as you make it sound like. '
> If a society wants to survive and remain stable some of the benefits rich people have must also be accessible to the general public (for example health care and education)
The poor people have never had as MUCH opportunity as NOW to get education and health care compared to the previous centuries before us. Wake up, seriously.
> otherwise social unrest is inevitable (remember occupy wall street?).
Yeah looks like OWS changed a lot of things : a bunch of hipsters camping in NY with no real agenda, big deal.
Pff, looks like you have no idea what you are talking about. Disclaimer, I'm French and what happened is nowhere as simple as you make it sound like. '
> If a society wants to survive and remain stable some of the benefits rich people have must also be accessible to the general public (for example health care and education)
The poor people have never had as MUCH opportunity as NOW to get education and health care compared to the previous centuries before us. Wake up, seriously.
> otherwise social unrest is inevitable (remember occupy wall street?).
Yeah looks like OWS changed a lot of things : a bunch of hipsters camping in NY with no real agenda, big deal.
There are a multitude of things you can do to reduce inequality at birth, from prenatal care to childcare. Statistics show that inequality certainly matters when correlated among other first world countries with social problems such as crime, teenage pregnancy, illiteracy, health, etc etc. If you're open to new ideas, I suggest you watch this TED talk: http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_wilkinson?language=en
> There are a multitude of things you can do to reduce inequality at birth
The most egalitarian folks actually dream of a society where it would be forbidden to have your own children (since it's actually VERY unfair to pass your genes down to the next generation... Smart people get smart kids, that's furthering the gap of inequalities) and let the sacrosanct government take care of human race reproduction and ensure it's genetically fair.
I'm not too excited by the idea.
The most egalitarian folks actually dream of a society where it would be forbidden to have your own children (since it's actually VERY unfair to pass your genes down to the next generation... Smart people get smart kids, that's furthering the gap of inequalities) and let the sacrosanct government take care of human race reproduction and ensure it's genetically fair.
I'm not too excited by the idea.
Well, the whole inequality issue only matters because we're all locked in a fierce, eat-or-be-eaten competition with each other, where if you fail you end up being miserable and die of hunger or bad health. Hence basic income.
Was your comment a joke based on my previous one? People dying from starvation are very much a thing of the past. and good medical care has never been as widespread as it is nowadays. 100 years ago you could die from a benign infection, nowadays, not so much.
Expectations went up too. In proportion to the increase in efficiency. So people's perceptions of their own lives decrease in value. That's just how people work. You can say whatever you want about these absolutes. No one cares and you noted it yourself.
>"However these gains are unequally distributed between the proprietors (ie. Amazon and it's shareholders) and the employees. While incomes for many employees have stagnated for over a decade, the shareholders of Amazon keep getting richer (https://www.google.com/finance?chdnp=1&chdd=1&chds=1&chdv=1&...) creating more inequality."
Do you own any shares in a fund that tracks the S&P 500? Congrats, you too are an Amazon shareholder getting richer at the expense of said employees.
Do you own any shares in a fund that tracks the S&P 500? Congrats, you too are an Amazon shareholder getting richer at the expense of said employees.
That's part of the appeal of UBI - we just accept that we are moving into a gig/freelance economy and these new jobs (and old jobs that have new conventions, like 3 day workweeks) are there to supplement UBI.
As a believer in capitalism, I see UBI as equalizing the labor side of the equation without economy-smothering alternatives like unions or excessive labor regulations.
It does by decoupling the need for a person to have a stable job. I think the effects of this would be almost as big as the shifts that happened during the Industrial Revolution. Once workers are truly free to choose their employers, we will see a massive shift in workplace norms.
As a believer in capitalism, I see UBI as equalizing the labor side of the equation without economy-smothering alternatives like unions or excessive labor regulations.
It does by decoupling the need for a person to have a stable job. I think the effects of this would be almost as big as the shifts that happened during the Industrial Revolution. Once workers are truly free to choose their employers, we will see a massive shift in workplace norms.
What's wrong with such jobs ?
You've got cancer? Partner just died? Unplanned pregnancy? Not your fault, and in a regular job needing a week or two off won't leave you destitute.
Workers in the gig economy are still going to have these things happen - the expenses don't go away. If the employer isn't doing their bit, the expense will be borne by family, charities or the taxpayer. Good for Amazon's bottom line, bad for you and me.
My theory is these jobs need to last only long enough for self-driving cars to get commoditized.
Oh yeah, and who is going to confirm that the delivery is done, or walk in apartment buildings to deliver to the right door ? A robot ?
Going to the last mile actually means going to the last centimetre as well. The car is not everything.
Going to the last mile actually means going to the last centimetre as well. The car is not everything.
If we're capable of solving the challenges of self-driving cars, finding a way to implement large curb-side or driveway-side mailboxes with cameras and RFID trackers, or a "fetchbot" that retrieves a box from the car and rolls it into the house, seems like a trivial hurdle to overcome.
I have not seen many robots which can walk stairs without falling at 99.99% confidence yet for door-to-door delivery.
Investment of the systems you mention are high-investment, not worth it vs the cost of a human operator per hour. this may change as new buildings are being built with such facilities in mind, but I have not heard of anything like that yet.
So human deliveries have a pretty good future for the time being.
Investment of the systems you mention are high-investment, not worth it vs the cost of a human operator per hour. this may change as new buildings are being built with such facilities in mind, but I have not heard of anything like that yet.
So human deliveries have a pretty good future for the time being.
There's a reason blocks of flats have mailboxes on the ground floor. I predict we'll see a rise of better, automated mailboxes, probably loaded from outside. After solving self-driving there is zero reason to employ a human - are companies really going to keep paying decent salary to dead weight that is occasionally useful to go up the stairs? I don't think so.
> I predict we'll see a rise of better, automated mailboxes, probably loaded from outside.
Probably, but then it will take time, again.
Probably, but then it will take time, again.
I think most people would be perfectly happy to walk to the street and open the car with a code they just received per text if that saved them some money.
> I think most people would be perfectly happy to walk to the street
Then it's a worse service and you might as well to the local post office if that's the case.
Then it's a worse service and you might as well to the local post office if that's the case.
Did you just equate walking to the curb to the same level of inconvenience of having to go to the post office? I'd have to walk nearly as far to get to my car as I would to get to the curb, and then I'd have to drive to the post office, find parking, walk into the post office, wait in line, walk back to my car, drive back, carry the package into my house...
"Whelp, having to cook my own food is more inconvenient than having it made for me. At that point I might as well butcher the cow myself!"
"Whelp, having to cook my own food is more inconvenient than having it made for me. At that point I might as well butcher the cow myself!"
It depends on the kind of housing and street layout. If you're in suburbia, walking to your street vs walking to your front door is a difference of 20 feet.
Also note that for many neighborhoods in the US, picking up the mail is a PITA - there's a collective mail box somewhere in the neighborhood that you need to walk to, usually a several minute walk. Door-to-door mail delivery only exists for houses that are several decades old.
If I could get a business to gather my postal mail & packages and park outside my door I would be very happy.
Also note that for many neighborhoods in the US, picking up the mail is a PITA - there's a collective mail box somewhere in the neighborhood that you need to walk to, usually a several minute walk. Door-to-door mail delivery only exists for houses that are several decades old.
If I could get a business to gather my postal mail & packages and park outside my door I would be very happy.
The US is actually not very representative of what the whole world looks like out there. In most modern cities you have apartment buildings with several floors and they have separate mailboxes - either common ones or individual ones right at your door.
Amazon is a global company and they would need to address the local differences everywhere.
Amazon is a global company and they would need to address the local differences everywhere.
Post offices are much further, you have to wait in lines, not to mention finding a parking spot if you have to drive there, and most importantly, post offices usually work in the day hours. There's little reason for self-driving delivery cars can work 24/7, or at least in a much larger hour span than a post office.
Externalizing the parking fines. Clever.
And fuel, and vehicle maintenance, and maybe the personal liability insurance.
Indeed; in the UK, you need courier insurance to be a delivery driver. If you're just Joe Public doing Amazon deliveries, you are potentially driving without insurance.
If you're just Joe Public doing Amazon deliveries, you can also break the speed limit or park illegally in order to make your deliveries. How is that any different from not being properly insured? It's the courier's responsibility to not do those things. The most Amazon can do is to not work with people they know break the law.
Illegal parking is a civil offense, and you're not likely to speed enough to get banned, whereas driving without insurance is a pretty serious criminal offense and will make it much more expensive to get insurance in the future.
> The most Amazon can do is to not work with people they know break the law.
Actually, Amazon can do more than that -- e.g., require up-front proof of appropriate insurance.
Actually, Amazon can do more than that -- e.g., require up-front proof of appropriate insurance.
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Amazon can't even effectively manage their second tier delivery vendors like Lasership in NYC. They dump packages in unsecured areas (I had one stolen last week). They scan packages as delivered to make their SLA with Amazon and then deliver after 9pm. And now Amazon thinks some random folks with cars are going to do great delivering merchandise in one of the country's most congested urban areas. Maybe bricks and mortar aren't so bad after all.
This sounds like a problem with Lasership -- not Amazon...
Since Amazon is using Lasership rather than a higher-priced, more competent carrier, it's Amazon's problem. It will certainly be Amazon's problem when their customers switch to competitors because Amazon is cheaping out and using Lasership.
Given that Amazon warehouse jobs include working unpaid time[0] and the standard practice of employers inflating per-hour rate expectations for piecework jobs, I am dubious of the "$18–25/hr" claim.
0: See INTEGRITY STAFFING SOLUTIONS, INC. v. BUSK, http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/14pdf/13-433_5h26.pdf
0: See INTEGRITY STAFFING SOLUTIONS, INC. v. BUSK, http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/14pdf/13-433_5h26.pdf
This is what the post office should be doing. We'll deliver your mail to wherever your phone is or you want it for that day.
I hate buying something from someone online (eBay for instance) and then they ship USPS. If I can't let the mailman into my apartment they won't leave the packages. So then I end up having to sit in line at the post office on Saturday morning and hope they can find the package for me and pick it up.
I hate buying something from someone online (eBay for instance) and then they ship USPS. If I can't let the mailman into my apartment they won't leave the packages. So then I end up having to sit in line at the post office on Saturday morning and hope they can find the package for me and pick it up.
I like what the Austrian post started to do. You buy a post locker once, place it on the outside of your house/flat and the post starts putting packages in there and throws the one-time use pin into your mail.
finally as an amazon prime member i will be able to deliver packages to myself !!!!
How does the math work out on wages once you factor in the vehicle costs (gas, insurance, maintenance, etc...)? Is it higher than minimum wage?
In America, generally speaking, if you're using a privately owned car for business, the companies pay a mileage rate, which is currently 57.5 cents per mile. That cost is expected to cover the cost of gas and maintenance on the vehicle.
I don't know if Uber / Amazon actually DO this, but if so, that mileage fee would be on top of whatever their actual pay rate is.
I don't know if Uber / Amazon actually DO this, but if so, that mileage fee would be on top of whatever their actual pay rate is.
That's far from universal. Companies can pay mileage, but nothing says they have to. To take a common example, pizza delivery drivers typically pay for all of their own transportation costs, sometimes with a small but insufficient delivery payment from their employer, and sometimes with nothing but a crappy hourly wage. That's why tipping is so important in that case: if you don't tip then it's likely the driver lost money on you, because they'll pay more for gas and maintenance on their car than they earned delivering to you without a tip.
I don't think there's anything special about 57.5 cents per mile when it comes to compensating employees, either. That figure is the rate at which you can deduct vehicle-related expenses from your taxes, which doesn't have to be the same as how you compensate your employees.
Uber doesn't pay any sort of mileage fee beyond the driver's 80% share. The driver can deduct 57.5 cents per mile driven for Uber on their taxes, thus reducing their tax liability.
I don't think there's anything special about 57.5 cents per mile when it comes to compensating employees, either. That figure is the rate at which you can deduct vehicle-related expenses from your taxes, which doesn't have to be the same as how you compensate your employees.
Uber doesn't pay any sort of mileage fee beyond the driver's 80% share. The driver can deduct 57.5 cents per mile driven for Uber on their taxes, thus reducing their tax liability.
can't you remove this cost from taxes?
If I'm understanding you correctly -- mileage rate pay is a business expense for which you are reimbursed, and aren't considered pay. They are (I believe) tax exempt.
Yes, if you are not reimbursed for the expenses by your employer. In other words, you can either (1) be reimbursed by your employer or (2) deduct the per-mile rate from your taxes, but not both.
Subject to certain conditions and limitations.
Subject to certain conditions and limitations.
Q: Where can I deliver with Amazon Flex?
A: Amazon Flex is available now in Seattle. It will be available soon in New York, Baltimore, Miami, Dallas, Austin, Chicago, Indianapolis, Atlanta and Portland.
Smart move by Amazon to refrain from making any Bay-area city one of its test markets. It's like Amazon is saying "we don't need to prove this will work in the bubble; let's base our test data set on realistic markets."
Smart move by Amazon to refrain from making any Bay-area city one of its test markets. It's like Amazon is saying "we don't need to prove this will work in the bubble; let's base our test data set on realistic markets."
Or Amazon is worried about a bunch of contractors being reclassified as employees as has happened to various "on-demand economy" companies in California: http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0OX1TE20150618
Ah, that would explain why they skipped Los Angeles too.
Also, gentrification and the rights of workers in a sharing economy are still hot-button political issues in the Bay-area. Who's going to picket Amazon Flex in Indianapolis?
I don't know about the Bay Area, but there's a huge Amazon distribution facility just outside of Indianapolis so I'm guessing there are similar facilities in/near each of the cities they're launching in.
Considering the variety of items I can get delivered same day there must be a large distribution facility nearby. But maybe not near enough to support this (most same day deliveries come around 8pm for me)
I don't think that's the reason - Amazon is incredibly unpopular in Seattle and anything they do there is certain to generate massive amounts of vitriol, so they wouldn't lose anything on that front by going to SF instead.
Why are they so unpopular there?
Several reasons, but I think the main one is filling Seattle with lots of people (programmers) that don't really culturally fit in with the rest of the population. There's also a lot of resentment about rent prices etc., but unlike the Bay Area there is one company (Amazon) for all the anger to be directed at, because Microsoft is far away in the suburbs and everyone else participating in the tech boom is tiny by comparison.
What would be a cultural fit for Seattle? Seems like such a diverse place.
Well, I'm not defending it. I agree it doesn't make sense. I'm just trying to explain.
Edit: also, seattle's not that diverse. Most of the centrally located neighborhoods are filled with just three cultural groups: yuppies/programmers, students, and hipsters/artists. You have to get as far away at least as Walligford before you even find something as exotic as families.
Edit: also, seattle's not that diverse. Most of the centrally located neighborhoods are filled with just three cultural groups: yuppies/programmers, students, and hipsters/artists. You have to get as far away at least as Walligford before you even find something as exotic as families.
It's what racists say to pretend they're not racist.
Well, in this case, one of the big concerns is new Amazon hires pushing families of color out of the central neighborhoods they've historically resided in. The CD is a very traditionally PoC neighborhood (there was recently a GREAT docu about Yesler Terrace housing projects), but it's also very conveniently located for a lot of new tech workers. Rents are skyrocketing.
I feel for anyone who can't pay their rent, but the rhetoric that tech employees are "pushing" anyone out misses the mark.
Tech employees aren't evicting people or raising their rent. They're finding vacant units, offered at a given price by landlords, and accepting the deal. Yes, those rents are often high -- but the problem emerges from a complex system, not from the deliberate behavior of a specific subgroup of actors.
Tech employees aren't evicting people or raising their rent. They're finding vacant units, offered at a given price by landlords, and accepting the deal. Yes, those rents are often high -- but the problem emerges from a complex system, not from the deliberate behavior of a specific subgroup of actors.
FWIW, as a life-long Seattleite, I disagree with this. There's definitely an Amazon backlash (particularly in the hipper neighborhoods) but it's not incredibly unpopular, most people like and use the service AND many like what they've done for the local economy.
I don't think most of the people who hate Amazon are life-long Seattleites. You're right that it's concentrated in places like Capitol Hill. But I don't think I've talked to anyone who like how Amazon has changed Seattle; at best they don't care.
Just my experience though, living there for two years -- I admit I haven't experienced every neighborhood or social group and might have a skewed viewpoint.
Just my experience though, living there for two years -- I admit I haven't experienced every neighborhood or social group and might have a skewed viewpoint.
The biggest reason is because it's extremely difficult to find cost effective labor in SF and LA, due to (a) higher than average cost of living, (b) difficult geographic structure [e.g. most people who do deliveries in SF live 1+hr away, and SF and LA are impossible to get around in), and (c) too many companies competing for the same labor.
I'd also argue that since most co's start in SF, there is very little brand loyalty (95% of my friends use the ridesharing service that's currently not surging) so it's hard to make your mark anymore.
As someone who previously ran ops at a similar on demand company, they're probably testing a cross section of markets. E.g. does this work in a big city with difficult traffic (NY), a smaller city that has tech savvy millennials but isn't a tech haven (Indianapolis), somewhere in between (Chicago). I'm sure their fulfillment center locations also played a role in the location choices.
I don't think they're avoiding CA due to lawsuits. Labor laws are very similar in other states (except for MA, which is oddly one of the few states that has ruled pro-contractor recently). The class actions are happening here since the co's have the largest presence, started here, and labor laws are definitely pro-employee. Even the DOL at a federal level released a paper basically saying "if there is any element of control, they are an employee".
[Edit: added last paragraph about laws.]
I'd also argue that since most co's start in SF, there is very little brand loyalty (95% of my friends use the ridesharing service that's currently not surging) so it's hard to make your mark anymore.
As someone who previously ran ops at a similar on demand company, they're probably testing a cross section of markets. E.g. does this work in a big city with difficult traffic (NY), a smaller city that has tech savvy millennials but isn't a tech haven (Indianapolis), somewhere in between (Chicago). I'm sure their fulfillment center locations also played a role in the location choices.
I don't think they're avoiding CA due to lawsuits. Labor laws are very similar in other states (except for MA, which is oddly one of the few states that has ruled pro-contractor recently). The class actions are happening here since the co's have the largest presence, started here, and labor laws are definitely pro-employee. Even the DOL at a federal level released a paper basically saying "if there is any element of control, they are an employee".
[Edit: added last paragraph about laws.]
It's probably best to avoid California all together.
California's interpretation of employment law (ala Uber) makes it much less attractive to establish such a business.
Amazon has five fulfillment centers in California: Moreno Valley, Riverside, Redlands, Tracy and Patterson. Here are their fulfillment centers nationally:
http://www.amazonfulfillmentcareers.com/amazon-fulfillment/l...
http://www.amazonfulfillmentcareers.com/amazon-fulfillment/l...
I think he meant for this service only. The debate between "independent contractor" vs "employee" has been pretty fierce in the state legislature.
Ooops, I forgot about that. Though per that link they are definitely heavily invested in here. In the long run they don't have a choice or Macy's will beat them. (Each store here is now a fulfillment center.)
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Consider they are based in Seattle, I think they have better luck with Seattle. I am not dismissing other point you said, but Seattle is no different from being also a tech area :-)
I'm not sure what it says about the Bay Area, but there does seem to be a bit of a correlation with avoiding certain cities. For example Baltimore is interesting in that Washington, DC is not included but very close and almost part of the same metropolitan area.
I was a little disappointed about this too. It could be that their distribution center is close to BWI, and traffic between BWI and DC is epically bad during rush hour. Many of my packages seem to come through BWI over Dulles. DC is relatively open to the on-demand economy, being one of the first cities to fully legalize Uber.
Washington D.C. hasn't been too friendly to Uber and they probably want to avoid dealing with that political mess.
They just built a massive distribution center in Baltimore, that's why it's available there before DC.
In Sunnyvale, Amazon packages are already delivered to me by a plainclothes dude in an unmarked white van. It seems they have some other fulltime staffing of a similar operation here, so no reason to add Flex to the bucket.
I'm not surprised to see Houston excluded from this list due to size and low urban density, but I am disappointed.
Do you have Prime Now? I think the expanded list is the cities currently served by Prime Now.
We do not and probably for the same reason: Amazon can't guarantee one hour delivery in a 640 square mile area without drones or multiple distribution hubs.
Bay area is Uber's home base. It is also where Uber will compete with a similar idea the first, I believe.
This will be amazing for the 3rd world, if it works, as postal services are notoriously ineffective and there's now way to overlay a trust model on them.
When amazon prime now launched in miami, they were using a temp agency to staff the drivers. Last time they brought me stuff in a city/euro-style-delivery van with amazon branding on it. I've also seen amazon branded shirts on delivery guys in their own cars too.
Lots of delivery services will be competing for freelancers (Shyp, postmates, favor, amazon)
Lots of delivery services will be competing for freelancers (Shyp, postmates, favor, amazon)
So $18-$25 an hour plus tips. To drive maybe 24miles or more per trip not sure and on top of that considering car expense you'd have to pay driving that many miles, gas oil-change maybe tire problems or engine problems driving that far distances everyday could really start to add up.
I'm really curious to see if Amazon will face similar local government push back like Uber has.
Perfect additional income for Uber driver, persons in the back seat, Amazon packages in the trunk.
I don't think that "$18-25/hr" is "Great Pay"
Considering about half the US population makes less than that, I think you're perspective might be a little warped.
http://horizoncu.onyourway.com/62-of-american-jobs-pay-less-...
That's a solid job to most people. Granted, issues like benefits, hours, and whether you really make that much are in doubt, but those numbers are certainly something to hang your hat on.
My guess is that those are estimates including tips, so the reality would be lower for many.
http://horizoncu.onyourway.com/62-of-american-jobs-pay-less-...
That's a solid job to most people. Granted, issues like benefits, hours, and whether you really make that much are in doubt, but those numbers are certainly something to hang your hat on.
My guess is that those are estimates including tips, so the reality would be lower for many.
> I don't think that "$18-25/hr" is "Great Pay"
For a job with little educational background, fairly free ability to set your own schedule, etc., its fairly good (even with the additional cost overhead that comes with independent contract work, as I assume is the case here.)
For most of the people on HN, sure, its pretty horrible pay compared to their alternatives, but HN isn't exactly the target audience.
For a job with little educational background, fairly free ability to set your own schedule, etc., its fairly good (even with the additional cost overhead that comes with independent contract work, as I assume is the case here.)
For most of the people on HN, sure, its pretty horrible pay compared to their alternatives, but HN isn't exactly the target audience.
If they're launching now in major cities, I'm guessing drone deliveries aren't coming anytime soon. (Or this is insurance against the drone plan not working.)
We are the drones.
I don't think the drone plan was ever a serious short term consideration for 99.999% of Amazon's business
> I don't think the drone plan was ever a serious short term consideration for 99.999% of Amazon's business
Right, but where would it be a serious short term consideration? Where's that .001%? If it's not in dense urban areas like Seattle and Chicago, I'm not sure where it would work, and those are the very areas where they're launching Flex.
Right, but where would it be a serious short term consideration? Where's that .001%? If it's not in dense urban areas like Seattle and Chicago, I'm not sure where it would work, and those are the very areas where they're launching Flex.
> Right, but where would it be a serious short term consideration?
Public relations.
Public relations.
The drone thing is a ways off; this is akin to Uber hiring drivers while working on driverless cars. The sad thing is the majority of jobs I hear about in the exciting new sharing economy are drivers and delivery people -- unskilled jobs that skilled engineers are furiously working on eliminating.
Those delivery drones aren't happening unless there is a huge improvement in battery technology and there are a number of companies and labs working very hard on that problem, some for decades.
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Heh, the scale of the people in the image is unfortunate: Smiling, small woman. Large imposing figure in a black jacket.
I notice no cities in California - a simple way of avoiding the pitfalls of having the reclassify contractors?
I'm just glad nobody's complaining that this has the same name as a dead Adobe product.
Bring this shit to Toronto and I'll do it on the weekends for extra dosh, no problem.
I wonder why the range of hourly rates? Start out at 18 and move up to 25 with experience?
Could be different rates for different cities, as well as different size of packages perhaps (e.g. upto 5lbs pp 18, 10lbs pp 20 etc..), since it's BYOC (thanks Uber..) it also might be related to your maximum distribution range, the further you are willing to go the more you are getting paid since it increases your fuel costs.
Might actually be a per package/delivery rate that they estimate to be $18-25 per hour. I highly doubt Amazon would pay an hourly wage when some people might only do one delivery per hour. It's just marketing to attract people, just like how Uber advertises to drivers that the average Uber driver income is $90,000/year.
Could be some sort of surge pricing model. During busier times, the rate could go up to attract more drivers.
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it could be depending on how many units you can deliver per hour on average ?
So now you can be working for both Amazon and Uber all day!
What happens if you get in a car accident delivering Amazon packages and don't have commercial car insurance as I suspect most people don't have not realize they need...
I think Uber deals with this by having an insurance policy that covers the workers while they are on duty. I am sure Amazon will do something similar.
Logo is a anger symbol?
will the customers be able to rate the deliverer à la uber?
Once Amazon is in this space, it means game over for other similar services.
In Barcelona (Europe) we have at least two startups in this space:
glovoapp.com and www.stuart.fr
Stuart has not released yet but are hiring quite agressively[1].
I don't think Amazon entering this space means they are dead but quite the opposity. If FLEX enters the European market will make the concierge delivery space grow. And this can only be good for competition.
[1]http://www.jobsbcn.com/?q=stuart
glovoapp.com and www.stuart.fr
Stuart has not released yet but are hiring quite agressively[1].
I don't think Amazon entering this space means they are dead but quite the opposity. If FLEX enters the European market will make the concierge delivery space grow. And this can only be good for competition.
[1]http://www.jobsbcn.com/?q=stuart
What?? Amazon has major competition with all of their products.
can I use my own drone to deliver packages? :)
Great now amazon get's to screw it's contractors out of benefits! Good for them!
Coming soon to Baltimore! Good luck with that fellas!
I have lived in Baltimore my entire life and this comment is an enigma. I assume this is some type of jab at crime, but IMHO, Baltimore is perfect for this kind of operation. To name a few reasons:
* Urban environment. Lots of deliveries in a short period of time.
* Amazon DH is conveniently located near I-95 for easy access to the city as well as I-695 and surrounding suburbia.
* Traffic actually isn't that bad compared with other urban areas.
* Urban environment. Lots of deliveries in a short period of time.
* Amazon DH is conveniently located near I-95 for easy access to the city as well as I-695 and surrounding suburbia.
* Traffic actually isn't that bad compared with other urban areas.
Seriously, traffic isn't that bad?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1&v=Cds9uQMQAnA
and also the governor of the state wrote an oped about how bad Baltimore city is at being a city:
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/bs-ed-hogan-baltimo...
I have lived in Baltimore for over 10 years. The roads are in terrible shape, there are only two streets to get across town and they are jammed 12 hours a day. 95 is under heavy construction and the entry points into the city from 95 no longer support the volume of traffic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1&v=Cds9uQMQAnA
and also the governor of the state wrote an oped about how bad Baltimore city is at being a city:
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/bs-ed-hogan-baltimo...
I have lived in Baltimore for over 10 years. The roads are in terrible shape, there are only two streets to get across town and they are jammed 12 hours a day. 95 is under heavy construction and the entry points into the city from 95 no longer support the volume of traffic.
Yeah I don't get what the comment was getting at either. People robbing drivers, I guess? (Although I've never heard of such things happening)
I agree with your points though - something like this would be perfect for the city!
I agree with your points though - something like this would be perfect for the city!
I live in Baltimore, and the only thing I can think of that the OP is referring to is the fact that it is extremely risky to get anything delivered to your place while away. If something is sitting on your front stoop, it is very likely to get stolen, even in the nicer neighborhoods. However, I don't see this being different than any other city.
He's probably been watching a bit too much of The Wire.
I love this assumption. It's partially true; I lived in Baltimore during the time they were filming the Wire. They used to interrupt my commute home by filming in my neighborhood.
I live in Baltimore (after NYC, SF, Boston). Love it here. Downvoted your comment because it is uninformed and adds nothing of value.
Amazon might be smart enough to deliver packages in the evenings when people are home, something FedEx and UPS just can't quite get their heads around.
I've gotten a few deliveries in the evening, mostly next day deliveries though where they probably didn't get the package at the local UPS hub until the afternoon.
To deliver in the evenings on a large scale they'd have to compress the work they do in the 8-9 hours of the normal working day (more in some cases where they do actually deliver in the evenings giving them almost 12 hours of delivery time) into the ~3 hours between 6-9 (starting at 6 because who actually gets home at 5 with commute times). All that goes to say if you want evening deliveries you're going to have to a lot pay more for deliveries just because it will require a lot more drivers (who will want better pay for working evening when they'd otherwise be home).
To deliver in the evenings on a large scale they'd have to compress the work they do in the 8-9 hours of the normal working day (more in some cases where they do actually deliver in the evenings giving them almost 12 hours of delivery time) into the ~3 hours between 6-9 (starting at 6 because who actually gets home at 5 with commute times). All that goes to say if you want evening deliveries you're going to have to a lot pay more for deliveries just because it will require a lot more drivers (who will want better pay for working evening when they'd otherwise be home).
I can't say it's the greatest experience.