13.3" full color ePaper display(shopkits.eink.com)
shopkits.eink.com
13.3" full color ePaper display
https://shopkits.eink.com/product/atelier-with-13-3%cb%9d-acep-display-ac133ut1-%e3%80%90glass%e3%80%91/#tab-custom-tab-third
396 comments
signs: https://eink.com/signage.html
price tags: https://eink.com/electronic-shelf-label.html
more: https://eink.com/application.html
Are you sure you know EInk/PVI's business better than they do?
price tags: https://eink.com/electronic-shelf-label.html
more: https://eink.com/application.html
Are you sure you know EInk/PVI's business better than they do?
How many of those have you seen in the real world?
Maybe they're more popular elsewhere, but outside of warehouse store price labels I haven't seen the technology.
Certainly not in large format.
Maybe they're more popular elsewhere, but outside of warehouse store price labels I haven't seen the technology.
Certainly not in large format.
A ton? Carrefour (I believe they're the second largest retailer, after Walmart) has had electronic shelf labels for well over a decade.
I haven't seen them in the US, but they're not exactly uncommon in Europe and Asia.
I haven't seen them in the US, but they're not exactly uncommon in Europe and Asia.
Here in the US, Kohl's (https://www.kohls.com/) uses the e-ink price tags in their retail stores. They are a terrible application of the technology. They're not bright enough to be legible from a distance, and even up-close their legibility is not great. They just look washed-out and dingy.
One of the main purposes of a price tag is to draw and hold the shopper's eye, and in that respect they fail miserably.
One of the main purposes of a price tag is to draw and hold the shopper's eye, and in that respect they fail miserably.
> One of the main purposes of a price tag is to draw and hold the shopper's eye, and in that respect they fail miserably.
There I was thinking the main purpose of a price tag is to tell you the price.
Product packaging is meant to grab your eye. Price tags are mostly functional (although some shops also use them to advertise offers).
There I was thinking the main purpose of a price tag is to tell you the price.
Product packaging is meant to grab your eye. Price tags are mostly functional (although some shops also use them to advertise offers).
The buyer for price labels is the retailer. The retailer's purpose for a price tag is to grab your eye and get you to buy more. If the price tag dissuades you from buying the product, that is a net negative from the retailer's perspective, and they are the ones that make the purchasing decisions on price tags.
Don't assume alignment of incentives. From the customer's perspective, the purpose of a price tag is to tell you the price. The customer isn't making the purchasing decisions for the price tags.
Don't assume alignment of incentives. From the customer's perspective, the purpose of a price tag is to tell you the price. The customer isn't making the purchasing decisions for the price tags.
I guess this depends a lot on country and culture. In Spain, in the supermarkets I usually go to, price tags are standard, black-and-white and uniform, just telling you the price and other standardized information (like price per kg). To grab your eye towards certain products, supermarkets add additional signs near the price tags (but not instead of them).
This is a typical example: https://cflvdg.avoz.es/sc/X71nZnU3spbY_97PpRRHtVnNB20=/x/201... - the price tags are standard, but the yellow sign with the eye ("you have a keen eye!") draws your attention to a particular tag. If they want to draw your attention even more they will use a larger sign, no problem.
By the way, eInk price tags in supermarkets here are common. Far from ubiquitous, but common.
This is a typical example: https://cflvdg.avoz.es/sc/X71nZnU3spbY_97PpRRHtVnNB20=/x/201... - the price tags are standard, but the yellow sign with the eye ("you have a keen eye!") draws your attention to a particular tag. If they want to draw your attention even more they will use a larger sign, no problem.
By the way, eInk price tags in supermarkets here are common. Far from ubiquitous, but common.
I don't know about the USA but where I live (Italy) a price tag is subject to some requirements by law. For example it shows the cost by kg or by liter to be able to compare products (of course not on, let's say, shavers.) Packaging can be as catchy as the manufacturer wishes but price tags are very standard and uniform within a store. The store can add label with discounts etc but not on the price tag.
Price per/{kg,l,unit} is mandated by EU regulations.
Very useful to see if a 2nd unit -75% off offer is really a good price or not.
> The retailer's purpose for a price tag is to grab your eye and get you to buy more.
I'm not sure that's really true.
What a supermarket like Tesco wants to do is sell stuff at a high price to people who don't care about the price (there are a lot of such people) while having stuff available at a low price to people who will only buy it if the price is competitive (there are also a lot of those people). One way to do that is to put the expensive stuff at eye level and the cheaper stuff on the bottom shelf. Another way to do it is to have periodic offers: some people will buy certain products only when they're on offer. Yet another way to do it is to make the prices hard to read or hard to compare. And the shops do that, in my experience. E Ink could be another tool for that. "Almost illegible from a distance of more than 40 cm" could be a selling point.
I'm not sure that's really true.
What a supermarket like Tesco wants to do is sell stuff at a high price to people who don't care about the price (there are a lot of such people) while having stuff available at a low price to people who will only buy it if the price is competitive (there are also a lot of those people). One way to do that is to put the expensive stuff at eye level and the cheaper stuff on the bottom shelf. Another way to do it is to have periodic offers: some people will buy certain products only when they're on offer. Yet another way to do it is to make the prices hard to read or hard to compare. And the shops do that, in my experience. E Ink could be another tool for that. "Almost illegible from a distance of more than 40 cm" could be a selling point.
Depending on the jurisdiction, price tags also have to be correct as well.
In certain areas, the consumer laws are such that the lowest of the register price and the displayed price must be used, and in other even friendlier jurisdictions, a discount of $10 has to be applied to the shelf price if the shelf price is lower than the register price (including giving away the item for free if the item is worth less than $10).
In those jurisdictions, ensuring that the price is correctly synchronized between displays and the registers is significantly more important than in jurisdictions with weaker consumer laws.
In certain areas, the consumer laws are such that the lowest of the register price and the displayed price must be used, and in other even friendlier jurisdictions, a discount of $10 has to be applied to the shelf price if the shelf price is lower than the register price (including giving away the item for free if the item is worth less than $10).
In those jurisdictions, ensuring that the price is correctly synchronized between displays and the registers is significantly more important than in jurisdictions with weaker consumer laws.
Where I'm from, many items have to have an easily comparable and visible price per kg (or e.g. l). Works so well (for the consumer) when you are looking at a selection of a specific product category.
Handling all this data and keeping it up to date is much easier with digitised and synchronised displays.
Handling all this data and keeping it up to date is much easier with digitised and synchronised displays.
I'm not convinced that the synchronisation is assured. While paper labels maybe subject to lack of staff or process discipline, electronic labels are going to suffer from power/battery issues, connection issues to the database, physical product ending up on the wrong shelf, etc. It'd be interesting to see independent reports on error rates between the two methods. ( Our biggest issue is double-scanning of product at the cash register.)
I don't want to be advertised to when I'm already in your damn store, I just want price information. If you try to manipulate me I am definitely less likely to buy your product. Retailers that don't care about their customers deserve to lose money.
Why would the price tag holding a shopper's attention have something to do with the likelihood of that shopper buying something?
Today I went to Tesco - a large supermarket in the UK - to buy 3 items required for dinner. I also planned to buy some chocolate of some sort.
I bought the requirements, and passed by a the crisps (potato chips) aisle on my way to the chocolate. A glance half an aisle away told me that one of the three or four kinds of crisps my partner takes to work was on offer, I had half an aisles walking where I thought about it and ended up buying it.
In the chocolate aisle I ended up buying a large bag of white chocolate that was particularly well priced (I could read every label from one place). As chocolate is a guilty luxury I've been known to leave without it if my deliberations last too long; being able to parse the information quickly led to a purchase.
--
So that is why. Most shoppers are both immediately price driven and don't want to be there. This can be used to increase spends.
I bought the requirements, and passed by a the crisps (potato chips) aisle on my way to the chocolate. A glance half an aisle away told me that one of the three or four kinds of crisps my partner takes to work was on offer, I had half an aisles walking where I thought about it and ended up buying it.
In the chocolate aisle I ended up buying a large bag of white chocolate that was particularly well priced (I could read every label from one place). As chocolate is a guilty luxury I've been known to leave without it if my deliberations last too long; being able to parse the information quickly led to a purchase.
--
So that is why. Most shoppers are both immediately price driven and don't want to be there. This can be used to increase spends.
Interestingly I know a little about why Tesco doesn’t use eInk price tags, having talked at length with one of the people that evaluated eInk tags for Tesco.
Top reason was simply price and maintenance. Deploy this kind of tech to 3400 stores is seriously non-trivial (something I know, from having attempted to build and sell tech to Tesco), and even very low unit costs compound fast.
Tesco top concerns with this type of tech are:
1. Price. Tesco is very capex sensitive. They generally only want to spend money on assets that have multiple uses.
2. Will it work 100% of time, or very close to it. Incorrect price tags are a serious issue for Tesco.
3. Who fixes it when it goes wrong and how?
Again these don’t seem like hard issues, but 3400 physical store makes it hard. Especially when you can’t rely on store staff to deal with uncommon problems, they aren’t given the time or training, due to retails razor thin margins.
One of the interesting non-obvious problem Tesco had with eInk price tags was simply making sure the right product tag appeared on the right shelf in the right place. This is despite has a very competent stock management system that tracks exactly what item lives on what shelf.
With paper you just swap the tags and move on. With eInk displays you can’t do that because then physical location of a tag will no longer match it’s stored virtual location.
Top reason was simply price and maintenance. Deploy this kind of tech to 3400 stores is seriously non-trivial (something I know, from having attempted to build and sell tech to Tesco), and even very low unit costs compound fast.
Tesco top concerns with this type of tech are:
1. Price. Tesco is very capex sensitive. They generally only want to spend money on assets that have multiple uses.
2. Will it work 100% of time, or very close to it. Incorrect price tags are a serious issue for Tesco.
3. Who fixes it when it goes wrong and how?
Again these don’t seem like hard issues, but 3400 physical store makes it hard. Especially when you can’t rely on store staff to deal with uncommon problems, they aren’t given the time or training, due to retails razor thin margins.
One of the interesting non-obvious problem Tesco had with eInk price tags was simply making sure the right product tag appeared on the right shelf in the right place. This is despite has a very competent stock management system that tracks exactly what item lives on what shelf.
With paper you just swap the tags and move on. With eInk displays you can’t do that because then physical location of a tag will no longer match it’s stored virtual location.
I don't understand why Tesco couldn't just start some pilot in a handful of stores, iron out the kinks, learn about reliability problems etc. and only after that decide whether or not to roll out the tech in all stores. That's what basically every supermarket chain here does (it has to be said they are often franchises here). For example, self-scanning in the supermarket chain I've been shopping at for years started used to be in only a handful of stores, but slowly more and more stores are getting the tech.
Same for the e-ink price tags, I've spotted them in two different supermarkets of the same chain so far but I'm 100% sure that in ~2 years literally all of them will have them.
Same for the e-ink price tags, I've spotted them in two different supermarkets of the same chain so far but I'm 100% sure that in ~2 years literally all of them will have them.
Traditionally brick and mortar retailers, for whatever reason, don't seem to use pilots and rollouts.
At least not to the extent expected.
The closest explanation I can think of is that so much of store operations' focus is on standardization (which itself is a tough problem), that deliberately disturbing standardization seems anathema.
That said, it's definitely changing in some chains. But you'll still get tons of blank looks or red tape in most, if you want to run an experiment like that.
At least not to the extent expected.
The closest explanation I can think of is that so much of store operations' focus is on standardization (which itself is a tough problem), that deliberately disturbing standardization seems anathema.
That said, it's definitely changing in some chains. But you'll still get tons of blank looks or red tape in most, if you want to run an experiment like that.
Indeed. I was involved in trying to get some shoplifting prevention tech to POC at a single Sainsbury's location and we ran into similar issues. Unfortunately it the company wound down before we found out whether we could overcome them.
Context: Kohl's is a volume reseller, clearinghouse; known for selling products on significant discount that did not sell on the first shelf the products were on.
They advertise their % off original retail to increase volumes of sales.
Price is their theoretical business, if the products were enticing enough themselves they'd not have made it to Kohls.
They advertise their % off original retail to increase volumes of sales.
Price is their theoretical business, if the products were enticing enough themselves they'd not have made it to Kohls.
Kohl's is a regular department store
Not sure about other people but for me if the price tag is not easily legible I most of the times don't bother with said item, unless it is an item that I purchase regularly and for which I know the price and especially the price per kg (I'm talking mostly about food products, here).
If a deal falls in the forest and no one see it, does the retailer make a sale?
The advantage for the retailer is that pricing is now "soft" and can be changed as often as desired for any of a number of reasons, including sales, promotions, A/B pricing tests, etc.
[deleted]
Funny: I have vision issues being able to focus on product packaging so when I am searching for a particular, say, cheese in the cheese section I find it much easier to scan/read the shelf labels than the products themselves. I find the uniformity much easier to cope with.
I've seen those, they look more like old segmented LED displays. E-ink technology can be a lot clearer than that. Sounds to me like they wanted digital signs, but didn't want to pay for it.
Can't blame them to be honest, they probably get damaged a lot and they're competing price-wise with small pieces of printed paper.
Can't blame them to be honest, they probably get damaged a lot and they're competing price-wise with small pieces of printed paper.
I disagree. At my local Kohls, I can see the displays just fine from a reasonable distance. Up close their legibility is fine.
Are you sure you don't mean seven-segment displays or similar? I've seen many stores in Sweden use electronic displays, but they are usually LCD seven-segment or similar, not e-ink.
Are you sure? Looking at the price tags page I could swear I've seen those in Sweden before, and this image looks like it may be from a Swedish (or at least Scandinavian) store: https://tw.eink.com/uploads/images/application/showcase/ESL4...
I may very well be wrong, but I live a block away from a Coop, Systembolaget and a few other stores, I can do a quick sample test tomorrow. (I know they have tags similar looking to these but I couldn't swear they're e-ink. I always thought those tags were pretty cool but it drives me nuts when they aren't set and so you have to go around hunting for a price anyway. (Looking at you, Bauhaus!)
I may very well be wrong, but I live a block away from a Coop, Systembolaget and a few other stores, I can do a quick sample test tomorrow. (I know they have tags similar looking to these but I couldn't swear they're e-ink. I always thought those tags were pretty cool but it drives me nuts when they aren't set and so you have to go around hunting for a price anyway. (Looking at you, Bauhaus!)
Pricer https://www.pricer.com/ is the company that most retailers utilizing e-ink price tags are utilizing in Sweden (They were founded there) along with other retailers (Best Buy). Those tags utilize near Infrared communication to update.
Yeah, that's e-ink. I was basing off of my experiences in my town, perhaps we're just behind the curve :)
One of the major supermarket chains in New Zealand has rolled them out to many of their stores over the past decade or so. They look pretty good.
I've done some shelf-edge signage projects recently and the market leaders are all LED or LCD.
Here in DK, every price tag in every super- or hypermarket use them. A big hypermarket will have in excess of thousand in use, plus replacing lost/damaged ones. Even a small supermarket has hundreds.
Electronic price tags are a huge business.
Electronic price tags are a huge business.
In Switzerland we see these all over the place. For example Coop supermarkets or Media Markt use them as price Tags. They also use the 3 color ones for marking sale items.
Oh wow... Been walking past these things for a few years now. Never realized it's E-Ink!
In Germany every eighth store uses them and that data set is from 2017: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdbZE0WaS_k
we have eink bus timetables in sydney and the clearway/no parking signs that change for special events... pretty nifty.
that said, you have a point, if tec was from china and/or was more open it would be everywhere.
that said, you have a point, if tec was from china and/or was more open it would be everywhere.
I think I've seen this maybe a decade ago? I'm not sure. I'm talking about Spain though.
Neither of these, but California gives option to use them as registration plates. Don't think I will ever use them, because they also had to add GPS and ability to phone home in addition to having to pay monthly for using it.
I’ve seen them a lot in non-US countries.
There is the reality that if this sign costs tens of dollars, you can go through the old printing process hundreds of firms before it becomes viable to use these kinds of screens though
There is the reality that if this sign costs tens of dollars, you can go through the old printing process hundreds of firms before it becomes viable to use these kinds of screens though
How much labor do you need for someone to manually replace a printed sign, though?
How much additional labor is it to stick a new label the few times the price changes or the few times the location of items are changed, relative to programming those new prices and those new locations in a computer?
And would that add up to needing to hire even a single new employee, considering that most retail stocking is done by regular employees during their down times (it’s not like stores are gonna reprice and rearrange products on the fly during busy times).
And it’s not just the cost of a single eink sticker because they will get damaged or break down more frequently.
And would that add up to needing to hire even a single new employee, considering that most retail stocking is done by regular employees during their down times (it’s not like stores are gonna reprice and rearrange products on the fly during busy times).
And it’s not just the cost of a single eink sticker because they will get damaged or break down more frequently.
Are these tags connected to a network? In that case I can definitely see the appeal for chain stores where you need consistent prices across stores in multiple cities. Set the price centrally, and have it come through everywhere without the need for any employees to go around setting new tags. Given all stores are chains these days (sadly) I can definitely imagine those savings add up to offset the cost of the tags. Especially over time and considering how massive some stores are.
Yeah, they're normally hooked up to a low bandwidth network like an IR mesh or something.
Another benefit of that is that it leaves the only regular stocking left which is the easiest part to automate. At that point you can cut out the grocery department entirely and leave the 10% weird cases to the front end staff.
Another benefit of that is that it leaves the only regular stocking left which is the easiest part to automate. At that point you can cut out the grocery department entirely and leave the 10% weird cases to the front end staff.
> it’s not like stores are gonna reprice and rearrange products on the fly during busy times
Ah, but with networked electronic tags, they totally could try and maximize revenue even more by dynamically repricing products throughout the day.
Ah, but with networked electronic tags, they totally could try and maximize revenue even more by dynamically repricing products throughout the day.
I wonder how that would work when the price changes. If I put something in my cart and then it rings up higher because the price went up while I was shopping I’m not going to be happy (and I assume that violates some kind of law or regulation).
I feel like you’d need to have people scan things as they picked them up to lock in the price. Then you’d need to automatically drop the price if the price goes down before the customer checks out (but don’t raise it if it goes up).
I feel like you’d need to have people scan things as they picked them up to lock in the price. Then you’d need to automatically drop the price if the price goes down before the customer checks out (but don’t raise it if it goes up).
I imagine this is handled like price changes at stores that are open 24h - push out the price label changes, then a few hours later update the registers. It's unlikely that a customer will be in your store that long.
Ah, interesting point, I hadn't considered that. It seems like that would take away a lot of the power of electronic price tags though. You raise the price on the price tag and people take the product at the new price, indicating they're willing to pay that new price, but you still charge them the old price.
The real holy grail in price segmentation would be something like Google glasses that show individualized prices for each product. Then the store could do all kinds of targeted price promotion based on my buying history. Or even do promotional pricing based on my shopping trip for that day. Maybe it notices I'm about to checkout and I have hamburgers in my cart, it could offer me a promotional price on buns. Or lower the price of sale items as I walk past them without picking them up to try to find the highest pricepoint I'm willing to pay.
The real holy grail in price segmentation would be something like Google glasses that show individualized prices for each product. Then the store could do all kinds of targeted price promotion based on my buying history. Or even do promotional pricing based on my shopping trip for that day. Maybe it notices I'm about to checkout and I have hamburgers in my cart, it could offer me a promotional price on buns. Or lower the price of sale items as I walk past them without picking them up to try to find the highest pricepoint I'm willing to pay.
An edge case, but some 30 years ago or so I was told that in some supermarkets in Brazil, there could be a central display changing prices daily (due to the hyperinflation) and besides supermarkets people went shopping as early as possible on shop openings to get "yesterday's prices":
https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2010/10/04/130329523/how-...
>In practice, this meant stores had to change their prices every day. The guy in the grocery store would walk the aisles putting new price stickers on the food. Shoppers would run ahead of him, so they could buy their food at the previous day’s price.
https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2010/10/04/130329523/how-...
>In practice, this meant stores had to change their prices every day. The guy in the grocery store would walk the aisles putting new price stickers on the food. Shoppers would run ahead of him, so they could buy their food at the previous day’s price.
Yes, not having to reprint price tags is an example of reducing menu cost. I assume that's what you're trying to say with this context-free Wikipedia link.
About the same you need to stock the shelves
Seeing them a lot in Best Buy.
Kroger has been experimenting with digital pricing in their shelf labels for over a year. Instead of eInk however, they were using LCDs, I think.
In addition to just price tags, they can then also show animation and ads at strategic locations.
It isn’t common yet, and I’ve only seen it at one of their test stores, but it’s pretty cool tech. But it is definitely not as set and forget as eInk.
In addition to just price tags, they can then also show animation and ads at strategic locations.
It isn’t common yet, and I’ve only seen it at one of their test stores, but it’s pretty cool tech. But it is definitely not as set and forget as eInk.
The e-ink price tags are used in most supermarkets in Denmark, and they started entering the shelves 10 years ago.
But in large format I don't think I've ever seen one.
But in large format I don't think I've ever seen one.
Irma in Denmark uses them, and they’re three-colour too (light-grey, black and red) which helps with offers, etc.
Started appearing in most supermarket chains in the Czech Republic. B/W and also dual colored.
Poland has those e-ink price tags everywhere, honestly majority of supermarkets now have them.
My local Whole Foods (in the SF Bay Area) uses E ink shelf labels in the produce section.
I've been to 7 best buy's in the last month and 6 had all price tags as eink
Kohl's uses the eink price tags, or at least used to a few years ago.
[deleted]
Everywhere that values human productivity. Many Countries in Europe paying fair wages to those working in Supermarket has been using them for years if not decades.
> Are you sure you know EInk/PVI's business better than they do?
Never said that I do, and, yes they are NOW finally starting to pursue the signage / label markets. My point was that they could and should have done so 10 or more years ago.
Never said that I do, and, yes they are NOW finally starting to pursue the signage / label markets. My point was that they could and should have done so 10 or more years ago.
They were. My first employer partnered with eInk back in like 2012 to bring a line of ESLs to market. The reason you're not seeing more of it is because in the US the companies prefer to purchase a "turnkey solution" whereas in Europe companies are more apt to develop custom software to integrate the ESL with their systems. And the major ESL supplier in the US, Pricer, uses on-premises servers and IR to update labels which is an expensive proposition. So you're limited in how you can pilot the technology.
I actually think there's a lot of room at the low end of the market to sell an on-premises ARM- or NUC-based server which interfaces with the tags over a radio link and provides aggregate data back to a cloud-based system for control and pricing updates. That would get you the millions of convenience stores who have to pay 3rd-party contractors to do their shelf labels. This would be especially brilliant if you combined a software fee with equipment leases so that your solution is an operating expense instead of an upfront capital cost.
I actually think there's a lot of room at the low end of the market to sell an on-premises ARM- or NUC-based server which interfaces with the tags over a radio link and provides aggregate data back to a cloud-based system for control and pricing updates. That would get you the millions of convenience stores who have to pay 3rd-party contractors to do their shelf labels. This would be especially brilliant if you combined a software fee with equipment leases so that your solution is an operating expense instead of an upfront capital cost.
Making them full color was a tremendous technical challenge if you look at how they work, for which I have to give them enormous kudos. And they're also pretty challenging to manufacturer... I suspect the pricing reflects the complexity to be honest.
I dunno, makes sense to me that you'd first address something where color and large sizes isn't very important, start making some revenue, do R&D on manufacturing larger formats and color and frame rate, and gradually introduce new products as they can be developed.
It's not like they've been keeping other color e-ink devices off the market with patents -- they didn't exist until today AFAIK. Other things billed as "color e-ink" substitutes that I've seen consume power in standby (and I keep checking from time to time with fingers crossed). I remember hearing stories about how much trouble they had getting from prototype (circa 1996) which I saw in lab to a model ready for production in 2007. 10+ years of process development to get to where it was in the first kindle.
And to be honest I'm not sure another company could just pick up the technology and start producing them in bigger quantities, these things are barely related to other displays at all and I imagine the production lines are super different. Plus patents from 1997 are expired now anyway, so if someone else could do it they are allowed to.
Knowing a fair bit about how their displays work, it's one of the few cases in electronic hardware I can think of that really seems to deserve a patent given how much creativity and time it took to start manufacturing, and how much money they had to spend to get it to the stage where it worked reliably at all. We could very easily be in a world where these displays didn't exist at all, plus or minus a few people making different choices about how to spend their money and time.
I dunno, makes sense to me that you'd first address something where color and large sizes isn't very important, start making some revenue, do R&D on manufacturing larger formats and color and frame rate, and gradually introduce new products as they can be developed.
It's not like they've been keeping other color e-ink devices off the market with patents -- they didn't exist until today AFAIK. Other things billed as "color e-ink" substitutes that I've seen consume power in standby (and I keep checking from time to time with fingers crossed). I remember hearing stories about how much trouble they had getting from prototype (circa 1996) which I saw in lab to a model ready for production in 2007. 10+ years of process development to get to where it was in the first kindle.
And to be honest I'm not sure another company could just pick up the technology and start producing them in bigger quantities, these things are barely related to other displays at all and I imagine the production lines are super different. Plus patents from 1997 are expired now anyway, so if someone else could do it they are allowed to.
Knowing a fair bit about how their displays work, it's one of the few cases in electronic hardware I can think of that really seems to deserve a patent given how much creativity and time it took to start manufacturing, and how much money they had to spend to get it to the stage where it worked reliably at all. We could very easily be in a world where these displays didn't exist at all, plus or minus a few people making different choices about how to spend their money and time.
Haven't they been on sale in Asia for a few years now as billboards ?
While LCDs still consume power just to display a picture, it can go very low : see how watches can run for a decade on a single tiny battery ! (I'm not even sure that e-ink would necessarily be an improvement there, considering that you'll want a watch to refresh a part of the screen at least once a minute...)
While LCDs still consume power just to display a picture, it can go very low : see how watches can run for a decade on a single tiny battery ! (I'm not even sure that e-ink would necessarily be an improvement there, considering that you'll want a watch to refresh a part of the screen at least once a minute...)
The backlight is what probably consumes most of the power, AFAIK color displays wouldn't properly work otherwise
Transflective LCDs only require a backlight in lo light conditions. They have color versions as well (Game Boy Color, Pebble Time...)
> they are NOW finally starting to pursue the signage / label markets
Your statement implies this is a recent development but many large retailers, like Best Buy and Kohls, have had these for well over 5 years, maybe even 10 I just don't remember precisely.
Your statement implies this is a recent development but many large retailers, like Best Buy and Kohls, have had these for well over 5 years, maybe even 10 I just don't remember precisely.
More than 10, as I recall seeing e-ink labels in Circuit City in 1999.
> They have been a terrible steward of the technology, limiting
> themselves to a tiny fraction of the addressable market (ebook
> readers) while shutting out a vast potential low power display
> market by pricing their panels far too high.
I would pay any reasonable - and even a slightly unreasonable - price for a full E-ink phone, because I am a business user and do not care about consuming media. Likewise for a laptop or desktop screen. Yet they are all but unavailable!
eInk smartphones, at least, are around: Hisense, Kingrow. Hisense just announced one with a color screen yesterday.
They are still very niche devices, though. Onyx made a similar thing back in 2013, but they never followed up because it didn't sell well.
FWIW, I do have a Kingrow K1, and I like it for what it is, which is a 5" Kindle that can also run the occasional Android app (like, say, OsmAnd or Kiwix). It's an excellent off-the-grid device due to battery life, which is precisely what I got it for. But for business use, I don't see much point - a dedicated business device to me would be something like Cosmo Communicator or Unihertz Titan.
They are still very niche devices, though. Onyx made a similar thing back in 2013, but they never followed up because it didn't sell well.
FWIW, I do have a Kingrow K1, and I like it for what it is, which is a 5" Kindle that can also run the occasional Android app (like, say, OsmAnd or Kiwix). It's an excellent off-the-grid device due to battery life, which is precisely what I got it for. But for business use, I don't see much point - a dedicated business device to me would be something like Cosmo Communicator or Unihertz Titan.
You might like the Barnes and Noble Nook 3. It's a terribly underpowered eink book reader, but Android apps and a launcher can be easily installed. I use it for Ankidroid. It runs Android 4.4 (API 19 I believe) but many apps still support that version.
It doesn't have an SD card slot, on top of having little internal storage. This is a common problem with eInk readers, even though many do run Android - they either don't have an SD slot at all, or if they do, it's SDHC (and thus 32 Gb).
With K1, I have a 400 Gb card in there that's loaded with stuff - not only my entire Kindle library, but also Kiwix loaded with offline Wikipedia and a bunch of other wikis, OsmAnd topo maps etc. Between that, and several days of battery life with occasional use, it's perfect for multi-day hikes out in the boonies.
With K1, I have a 400 Gb card in there that's loaded with stuff - not only my entire Kindle library, but also Kiwix loaded with offline Wikipedia and a bunch of other wikis, OsmAnd topo maps etc. Between that, and several days of battery life with occasional use, it's perfect for multi-day hikes out in the boonies.
I'm really interested in the K1, but every review I've read says it's slow as molasses. Are they exaggerating or does it really feel bad to use?
In what sense? I haven't tried anything CPU-intensive on it, since there isn't much point with that kind of screen.
If you mean the screen refresh rate, it's typical eInk, comparable to Kindle. For tasks that require fast refresh, it's certainly not a pleasant device to use - e.g. scrolling around in maps is a bit tricky - but it's manageable.
If you mean the screen refresh rate, it's typical eInk, comparable to Kindle. For tasks that require fast refresh, it's certainly not a pleasant device to use - e.g. scrolling around in maps is a bit tricky - but it's manageable.
Have you seen the Dasung Paperlike?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JIsX-qF6gQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JIsX-qF6gQ
That just proves my point. $1200 for a 13" screen is five times the cost and one forth the surface area of my current screen. It should be the same surface area and double the cost.
It's an extremely young technology that only a tiny niche of people are even interested in. Your expectations are unreasonable.
About 7 years ago I moved to one of the most affluent parts of the UK (outside of London) and had my mind blown when every item on the shelf in the tastefully decorated Morissons supermarket had e-ink displays for every item.
As an engineer my immediate thought was whether they update these on-the-fly with different prices depending on who walks in the door (they don't).
As an engineer my immediate thought was whether they update these on-the-fly with different prices depending on who walks in the door (they don't).
At least in Portugal, prices on a supermarket can only be lowered during the day, never increased. The logic is: During a dynamic price increase, a customer may pick an item from the display at the low price, only then to be charged the higher price at the register; the store would be found lying on the displayed price, which is illegal.
This severely limits dynamic pricing.
This severely limits dynamic pricing.
That's interesting. I worked in a supermarket as a student (in the UK) and was told when I asked (because I like to ask these sorts of questions) that here in the UK, the retailer is not obligated to honour the implied contract.
Essentially, if the price is wrong on the shelf, they can simply choose not to sell you the item if you refuse the correct price. In reality, larger stores won't want to upset a customer and generally will honour a lower price. It's more likely to happen when buying a loaf of bread than when buying a TV, or a car for example.
Essentially, if the price is wrong on the shelf, they can simply choose not to sell you the item if you refuse the correct price. In reality, larger stores won't want to upset a customer and generally will honour a lower price. It's more likely to happen when buying a loaf of bread than when buying a TV, or a car for example.
This is because people frequently try to scam stores by swapping labels and such.
I checked it a while back, and the key patents aren't due to expire for several more years. I recall 2024, but with einks patent moat, it will probably take until the 2030s to see real alternatives in the space.
The NDA required to buy a sample also doesn’t help.
From what I understand, a lot has to do with IP ownership, this was developed at MIT and any licensing deal is not as profitable as being able to sell a product. Thus, to make a VC/equity funded commercial venture of it they have to develop a product.
Reminder that patents filed in 1997 expired years ago. I suspect that the lack of competitors has more to do with the incredible complexity of manufacturing them reliably than due to IP issues. Unlike 3D printers which went wild after Stratasys patents finally expired.
There's probably a bunch of patents related to the manufacturing process or mechanisms.
What they should have done is license the tech while developing their product. This little move probably left them billions on the table just by preferring to sit on the tech.
You can get monochrome and 2 color displays very cheap! I bought one a while ago to play around with building a smartwatch but school got in the way, then I graduate and have been moving and my whole electronics lab is all packed up.
E-Ink as price displays has been around for at least 10 years.
Grocery stores here have had those e-ink price tags for a few years already, so I guess at least those are not expensive in bulk. Not sure if the same economy of scale applies to the larger screens or if there are still technological difficulties at large sizes.
I wonder if there are any noticeable economical effects of being able to update prices live on the fly with those price tags, or if it's purely a matter of convenience.
I wonder if there are any noticeable economical effects of being able to update prices live on the fly with those price tags, or if it's purely a matter of convenience.
> They have also either refused to license their technology to others or made the licensing fee uneconomical.
Please share your evidence for this.
Please share your evidence for this.
In the realm of e-ink, I've been loving my Onyx tablet lately. It runs full Android, has an ePaper display, and has a Wacom stylus for note taking.
Two things I think it's done really well- it has the ability to easily disable the touch screen so you can pass it around and work with it like it's a real piece of paper. Additionally, you can change the refresh rate to your preference, and set it per-app. Higher refresh rates lead to ghosting, but if I turn the refresh rate high enough, I can watch a YouTube video on ePaper (!!!) which is crazy to me.
Two things I think it's done really well- it has the ability to easily disable the touch screen so you can pass it around and work with it like it's a real piece of paper. Additionally, you can change the refresh rate to your preference, and set it per-app. Higher refresh rates lead to ghosting, but if I turn the refresh rate high enough, I can watch a YouTube video on ePaper (!!!) which is crazy to me.
> to easily disable the touch screen
The one feature I wish existed in every smartphone and tablet yet it exists in none. Perhaps I'm particularly clumsy but the amount of inadvertent interactions I trigger with my devices is infuriating.
The one feature I wish existed in every smartphone and tablet yet it exists in none. Perhaps I'm particularly clumsy but the amount of inadvertent interactions I trigger with my devices is infuriating.
iOS supports this with "Guided Access" mode. It has to be enabled in settings, then a triple click will turn it off/on. It can have its own passcode as well. I use it when handing my phone to my kids--start a video, enable guided access, and not worry about who they might inadvertently call or photo they might delete.
That's an incredible feature that I had no idea existed. Thanks! Now my kids will stop deleting my apps.
I'd love to be able to map this to ipad side switch (which no more exists) - my kids use it to fix the picture on screen so that they could put a paper over screen, and use the picture as a template for drawing.
I can't thank you enough for this comment, it's exactly what I was looking for for so long.
You just changed my life, thank you!
Wow, thanks!
Doesn't sound all that convenient. In truth I just want a hardware switch.
It’s pressing a button three times to enable, three times to disable (with a passcode).
I would say that’s better because it doesn’t take up more phone real-estate, and it can’t be disabled by a smart kiddo.
I would say that’s better because it doesn’t take up more phone real-estate, and it can’t be disabled by a smart kiddo.
No, it's not like that at all. You have to not just enable it but also select inaccessible areas of the screen. Every time. And they get greyed out which makes it unusable for watching videos while disabling inadvertent interactions (accidental pause/resume/rewind etc).
You don’t have to disable any part of the screen. Just hit “start” and you are locked into the app.
I just tested it and the only thing I could not do was change the volume.
You've missed my point completely. I want the _whole damn screen_ disabled so I don't inadvertently press pause/skip forward when watching videos for example. It's exactly the opposite of the behavior you get from "guided access" thing.
I apologize, I misread what you said. In options (bottom left of the screen) there is a switch to disable touch completely (it also seems to remember it’s setting for that particular app).
There's an option to disable all touches without greying anything out, but I agree that it's too cumbersome to use.
[deleted]
There is an android app called touch lock which I use for this on the odd occasions my 2yo daughter watches youtube/netflix
It's a bit hacky but kinda works (netflix doesn't like stuff floating over a playing video so you have to set touch lock to lock in 10 secs then press play, there's a sort of knack to it. Also it doesn't lock the power button so sometimes that accidentally gets pressed and I get asked why did it stop? :) )
If there are better options out there I'm all ears!
It's a bit hacky but kinda works (netflix doesn't like stuff floating over a playing video so you have to set touch lock to lock in 10 secs then press play, there's a sort of knack to it. Also it doesn't lock the power button so sometimes that accidentally gets pressed and I get asked why did it stop? :) )
If there are better options out there I'm all ears!
Game Tools on Samsung devices have this feature. For apps that aren't games you need to add them in Game Launcher so the Game Tools button appears in those apps.
I personally love my Dasung not-eReader. Yes, the software is not the best, especially at very low power it becomes unusable but having my eReader serve emergency monitor duty is awesome. It has a mini HDMI input. It's also an Android tablet but i consider that a gimmick.
With the One Mix Yoga 2S it forms my on call tech kit I lug everywhere. I wouldn't use this for full time work but I only need a tiny shoulder bag this way vs carrying the 14" ThinkPad everywhere just because once every half a year we have an emergency...
You can see my loadout at https://imgur.com/a/xmRmYSn
With the One Mix Yoga 2S it forms my on call tech kit I lug everywhere. I wouldn't use this for full time work but I only need a tiny shoulder bag this way vs carrying the 14" ThinkPad everywhere just because once every half a year we have an emergency...
You can see my loadout at https://imgur.com/a/xmRmYSn
I have one of those, but the problem is that it seems to be very picky about the devices that it can support as a display. I can get output from my Thinkpad X1 just fine, but an assortment of different Raspberry Pi models produce a mess of pixels (whereas the same devices work fine with a regular external HDMI display).
The newer Onyx models seem to have a monitor function as well: https://onyxboox.com/boox_max3
If I am reading reviews correctly it has micro(?) HDMI and a usb-C port. However, the usb port seems to only be for charging/keyboards/data etc., not for display port (next model maybe?).
If I am reading reviews correctly it has micro(?) HDMI and a usb-C port. However, the usb port seems to only be for charging/keyboards/data etc., not for display port (next model maybe?).
I had an original Onyx Boox and it was so terrible, inflexible, and softwarily out-of-date from the moment of shipping that I gave it away within about a month. It was also slower at even responding to page-flip commands on PDFs than my iPad 2. And I'm giving it a fairly wide berth for the slower refresh rate of e-ink-- talking push button 3 seconds elapse blanks and draws new page
edit: I see that they're still shipping Android 6-based devices in 2020. Lovely stuff.
edit: I see that they're still shipping Android 6-based devices in 2020. Lovely stuff.
Don't have one, but the review sounds like the max 3 is the complete opposite: https://goodereader.com/blog/reviews/onyx-boox-max3-review
Overpowered hardware, stock android 9, no restrictions.
Overpowered hardware, stock android 9, no restrictions.
It's way too big and expensive for the purpose. And all the smaller one don't do it. I would consider a 10" screen for sure but 13.3"? That's too much.
So it's you who got that incredibly sick 1733 custom bag! Figures I'd run into you here. /r/ManyBaggers says hello!
Been looking at these for sheet music! (The larger models.) The ability to natively run Google Play Books is a huge bonus too, very few offer that compatibility and that's where most of my books are.
I wish Movies Anywhere existed for ebooks but there's no way Amazon would go for it. :(
I wish Movies Anywhere existed for ebooks but there's no way Amazon would go for it. :(
I own an onyx boox and I can't emphasize enough how much I don't recommend it for anyone. If I had known the company was a serial GPL violator, I would have never purchased it in the first place. My recommendation would be to wait for the refresh of the ReMarkable Tablet, as it runs GNU/Linux and there is a healthy community of people who have made a ton of applications and tools for it [0]. This will likely never occur with any Onyx products and you will be stuck with a device running an old version of Android with SELinux disabled, on a vulnerable kernel, that constantly phones home to Chinese cloud servers.
I explain it all in this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21041543
[0]: https://github.com/reHackable/awesome-reMarkable
I explain it all in this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21041543
[0]: https://github.com/reHackable/awesome-reMarkable
I have an olde Barnes and Noble Nook that I rooted and installed Play Books. Used that for years to read public domain books that I got from Gutenberg and uploaded to Play to get position synced between my phone and Nook. Now I mostly read Libby. I also have the Kindle app on the Nook, so I need to see if the old version of the app still works and if I can send books from Libby to it.
I'd love something like the BOOX Max3 13.3 but sadly I'm locked into Amazon's Kindle with an extensive collection of books.
You always can liberate your DRM-ed ebooks with something like Calibre + plugin.
If it runs Android why can't you install the Amazon Kindle app?
Thank you! I somehow completely forgot about that.
You can do this!
Not impossible to export them into an open format [0]
I recently deleted my Amazon account and now use the kindle as plain e-reader as far as that is possible (ie buy and load books from other sources).
[0] https://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283371
I recently deleted my Amazon account and now use the kindle as plain e-reader as far as that is possible (ie buy and load books from other sources).
[0] https://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283371
How's the battery life, or to be inexact, how often do you recharge it?
I haven't managed to get the battery down below maybe 70%, but I only charge it like once or twice a week. It's impressive.
what model did you get?
I got the Boox Note 2, which is 10.3 inches. It's just large enough to be useful, but not so big to be unwieldy.
Video I saw looks cool, but 500 bones! I'd be concerned my handwriting would be too small or illegible to be an effective primary notepad.
How do you use it?
How do you use it?
As far as dealing with legibility, it has pretty high resolution, so you can write small if you'd like. You can also zoom in and out to write larger if you'd like.
I use it for reading and note taking. It's helpful to jot something down quickly or to take more in-depth notes. You can also install Android apps on there too, so I use Firefox to browse the web (reading articles on Wikipedia, doing research into software products) and sync that with my phone to easily pass data between them.
I use it for reading and note taking. It's helpful to jot something down quickly or to take more in-depth notes. You can also install Android apps on there too, so I use Firefox to browse the web (reading articles on Wikipedia, doing research into software products) and sync that with my phone to easily pass data between them.
Thanks for the info!
> "13.3” ACeP display is suitable for various applications, e.g. Artwork, Signage, Retail, etc…"
These various applications sound like static images without fast refresh requirements. I wonder what the refresh rate is like on these.
I'm still waiting with bated breath for a reliable e-ink computer monitor comes out with a decent refresh rate. I'd even be happy with just greyscale.
These various applications sound like static images without fast refresh requirements. I wonder what the refresh rate is like on these.
I'm still waiting with bated breath for a reliable e-ink computer monitor comes out with a decent refresh rate. I'd even be happy with just greyscale.
Per below vid, it looks like refresh rate is ~25 seconds. Doubt you'll be able to use it for a monitor anytime soon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVANwwXtHEI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVANwwXtHEI
If the colors are good enough, this would be awesome as a digital photo frame though. Current digital photo frames emit light which is not something you want from a photo on your wall.
A few of these, updating them maybe once a day, would be excellent.
A few of these, updating them maybe once a day, would be excellent.
>digital photo frame
Also for outdoor advertisement. Replacing those LED backlight. Unfortunately the video has shown the quality isn't anywhere near good enough. PPI and colour accuracy are too low.
Also for outdoor advertisement. Replacing those LED backlight. Unfortunately the video has shown the quality isn't anywhere near good enough. PPI and colour accuracy are too low.
Also a photo frame that doesn't consume energy 24/7 would be nice.
That's a great idea. Given the connectors look so fragile, how would one go about mounting this to be enclosed in a real frame to have it look nice?
Oof, that's even way too slow for e-book usage. Still, it's nice to see this technology progressing. There's obviously a massive use case for battery-limited devices like smartwatches and smartphones.
The dream of someday coding on a high-resolution decent-refresh-rate color e-paper monitor is still alive!
The dream of someday coding on a high-resolution decent-refresh-rate color e-paper monitor is still alive!
Well, what you could do is strap two back to back to each other. So like front: page1, back: page2. Then when you "turn the page" it skips evens/odds and you just flip the display over to get page2 while page3 buffers on the other side :p
Manual double buffering :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_buffering
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_buffering
There are still tons of applications:
Digital photo frames that cycle throughout the day, dynamic posters and murals with art that changes with the time or viewer, refreshing price labels, clocks with minute resolution, data visualization over large time intervals, informational displays...
You might not even have to paint the entire screen at once, but can perhaps update only the dirty regions.
Not everything needs to display video or respond in real time to human input. There's so much painted in the world around us that could have value added by letting it refresh on the day, hour, or minute.
Digital photo frames that cycle throughout the day, dynamic posters and murals with art that changes with the time or viewer, refreshing price labels, clocks with minute resolution, data visualization over large time intervals, informational displays...
You might not even have to paint the entire screen at once, but can perhaps update only the dirty regions.
Not everything needs to display video or respond in real time to human input. There's so much painted in the world around us that could have value added by letting it refresh on the day, hour, or minute.
BestBuy already uses eink for their price tags. Something like this: https://www.eink.com/electronic-shelf-label.html?type=applic...
The only way I'd accept one of these hanging on my wall was if it had computer vision to check & verify that there's nobody in the room before it starts that god-awful flickery 25 second update process. Eurgh.
Someone did something like this with a torn-apart 5k iMac, mounting the display in a gilded frame and having it cycle through various images of fine art but only when the camera determined that nobody was looking at it.
https://www.claybavor.com/blog/a-canvas-made-of-pixels
https://www.claybavor.com/blog/a-canvas-made-of-pixels
>A fun (but impractical and frustrating) variant of this feature is to have the image change as soon as the viewer looks away. So you’re looking at a painting, glance away to another room, and look back to find a new painting hanging on the wall.
Also interesting that the iMac doesn't have TrueTone, so he had to do the white-balance matching himself.
Also interesting that the iMac doesn't have TrueTone, so he had to do the white-balance matching himself.
Oh come now, if it updated oncer per day, that's 25 seconds of flicker per 86,375 seconds of viewing. And you could set it to update at 2am when everyone is asleep.
(Computer vision would be cool though, imagine if it was different every time you left and re-entered a room?)
(Computer vision would be cool though, imagine if it was different every time you left and re-entered a room?)
Humans are pretty perceptive of things flickering in the periphery of their vision, especially when they happen only rarely (as opposed to, say, xmas tree lights).
That said, you could probably put a one-cell LCD (like those shadeable windows on the 787) over the screen to black it out during the update.
That said, you could probably put a one-cell LCD (like those shadeable windows on the 787) over the screen to black it out during the update.
Should be enough for keyboards !
> The dream of someday coding on a high-resolution decent-refresh-rate color e-paper monitor is still alive!
Honestly I'd say this is possible now. Modern two-color (usually black/red) e-paper panels can refresh at 5-10hz. Grayscale only panels can go even faster, but it's not a huge problem for text. My e-reader gets around 100 hours of battery life but drops under 10 if I enable wifi and any lighting. That's running a lightly modified android. I'd imagine a dedicated os just for text and vpn/git could do quite well. Currently the only players in the big e-paper market are going for ereader or "sketchbook" markets.
Honestly I'd say this is possible now. Modern two-color (usually black/red) e-paper panels can refresh at 5-10hz. Grayscale only panels can go even faster, but it's not a huge problem for text. My e-reader gets around 100 hours of battery life but drops under 10 if I enable wifi and any lighting. That's running a lightly modified android. I'd imagine a dedicated os just for text and vpn/git could do quite well. Currently the only players in the big e-paper market are going for ereader or "sketchbook" markets.
I'm guessing it's faster if it's only rendering a small photo within a page (like a textbook). If the area of the image is roughly 1/10 the page, with the rest being basic b&w text. It should take a few seconds only.
> "I'm still waiting with bated breath for a reliable e-ink computer monitor comes out with a decent refresh rate. I'd even be happy with just greyscale."
Dasung's current generation grayscale e-ink monitor comes pretty close, IMO. It even does adequate video playback: https://youtu.be/vnUACe8Bsyg?t=27
Dasung's current generation grayscale e-ink monitor comes pretty close, IMO. It even does adequate video playback: https://youtu.be/vnUACe8Bsyg?t=27
I have one and agree. The software support for Linux is nonexistent which is a shame, but it’s still great after you tune your colors for it (eg. Black text on white background).
I don't know if anyone is really working on this, the "killer feature" of eInk is that the display only draws power when it's refreshing. You can drive them much faster, iirc there have been several proof of concepts using extant consumer screens going at 60Hz, so it's totally possible. I just don't think there's much market for it and I bet it stresses the tech in weird ways to run it that fast. Definitely possible though.
I'm optimistic because devices like smart phones and smart watches are things that benefit from having very low idle power when just displaying mostly static info but require a much faster refresh rate in active use. Being able to read them easily in bright daylight would also be a great plus. That's a good market.
Even laptops would probably benefit from it, when you're typing some text or reading a document you don't need 60fps refresh rate (especially if you can only refresh portions of the screen). That might save a significant amount of battery.
Even laptops would probably benefit from it, when you're typing some text or reading a document you don't need 60fps refresh rate (especially if you can only refresh portions of the screen). That might save a significant amount of battery.
Non-backlit LCDs already have pretty low idle power though. Normal digital watches last about a decade on a battery and smartwatches like the Amazfit Bip last about a month on a charge with the screen always on (and bluetooth, heart rate monitor, etc which are surely a pretty large fraction of the power draw). And then the biggest smartwatch manufactures have decided to use OLED and have 2 day battery life for some reason.
For what it's worth, I have a Garmin 645 smartwatch, which uses a transflective display; the user experience is about the same as e-ink. I love it. The "white" is kinda silver-grey, but it's perfectly functional, and I get a week's battery life. As a former Pebble owner, I think the trend toward smartwatches with OLED displays and short battery life is a terrible one.
The Sharp "memory LCD" displays are nearly zero power and can update at 60hz if you really felt like it. They stopped making them sadly, but they were used in the Pebble Watch (it's marketing claimed ePaper, it wasn't).
The just-released Fujifilm X-Pro3 camera uses a "memory LCD" with dimensions that match one made by Sharp.
Nice, so we might get a new Pebble-like smartwatch ?
Interesting. I thought they were long gone.
The other feature is it doesn't shine light.
This would be the main reason I would buy an eInk monitor.
There are already a lot of reflective LCD displays. For example in digital clocks and watches but they are all monochrome.
Pixel Qi promised reflective displays but I believe the reflective mode is only grayscale.
There are already a lot of reflective LCD displays. For example in digital clocks and watches but they are all monochrome.
Pixel Qi promised reflective displays but I believe the reflective mode is only grayscale.
Color ones exist too : Game Boy Color, Pebble Color...
Neither do most of the other common display technologies available to us!
EDIT: Can't reply to TeMPOraL, but I think that's not true, they need polarized light. I'm not an expert on this but my intuition is there are unrealized advances to be made in the field of reflective LCD-based displays. I just don't think there's much demand to research these applications and connect the dots. I would be surprised if you couldn't make a pretty decent, high refresh rate reflective display using an LCD based approach.
EDIT: Can't reply to TeMPOraL, but I think that's not true, they need polarized light. I'm not an expert on this but my intuition is there are unrealized advances to be made in the field of reflective LCD-based displays. I just don't think there's much demand to research these applications and connect the dots. I would be surprised if you couldn't make a pretty decent, high refresh rate reflective display using an LCD based approach.
But they do! If they don't emit lights from pixels, they usually need a backlight to be legible.
E-ink is nice because it does not need a light source to be fully legible in any condition in which print is.
E-ink is nice because it does not need a light source to be fully legible in any condition in which print is.
Transflective LCDs do not need a light source either, and, unlike e-ink, can use a backlight in low light conditions.
They're just an exception confirming the rule, though.
[deleted]
E-ink does need a light source, it's impossible to read without sufficient environmental lighting (like real paper).
One thing I noticed with my Pebble Time is how, unlike any other LCD I've seen so far, polarized glasses don't have an effect on it for some reason ! (It might be due to multiple layers of weird liquid crystals ?)
> I'm still waiting with bated breath for a reliable e-ink computer monitor comes out with a decent refresh rate. I'd even be happy with just greyscale.
CLEARink have a best-of-all-worlds high-refresh rate color e-paper that want to release products around mid 2020.
CLEARink have a best-of-all-worlds high-refresh rate color e-paper that want to release products around mid 2020.
They appear to be an early stages startup at best. No sign of product demos or even media photos from their public events on their site.
As of last year they had only just partnered with a manufacturer and had yet to ship actual Dev or Demo kits.
As of last year they had only just partnered with a manufacturer and had yet to ship actual Dev or Demo kits.
They've shown excellent pre-production models, and have $300m in ‘confirmed commitments’. I'm not going to bet they'll be on time, but it seems wrong to dismiss them as just talk.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjJ2-cdhwMQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjJ2-cdhwMQ
From what I've seen, they have 2 demo displays that are locked in cabinets under controlled lighting conditions. They might have a viable product but they're still in the R&D stage from what I can tell.
Sure, if everything prior to actively mass manufacturing counts as R&D, but they've proven they can manufacture, that the product works and outperforms the competitors, and they have customers. I was objecting to ‘early stages startup’ and ‘No sign of product demos’, not to the idea that there are still challenges to overcome.
Refresh rates on eink are generally poor. But it seems uncommon to worry about Hertz or frames per second, because the advantage of low power usage disappears if they are refreshed at anything approaching "realtime".
For applications which need fast refresh rates and characteristics like good readability under sunlight, transflexive LCD displays seem to be more popular and economical.
Remember, eink works by physically moving 'ink' particles within each pixel using a magnetic field. It takes a lot of power and time compared to how quickly electronic signals usually propagate, and it seems difficult to get around that physical limitation.
For applications which need fast refresh rates and characteristics like good readability under sunlight, transflexive LCD displays seem to be more popular and economical.
Remember, eink works by physically moving 'ink' particles within each pixel using a magnetic field. It takes a lot of power and time compared to how quickly electronic signals usually propagate, and it seems difficult to get around that physical limitation.
Refresh rates can actually vary a lot. They're intentionally slow on book readers, because eInk is rather power hungry when it redraws, so fast refresh is not free. But for a dedicated display, it's not a problem, so e.g. Dasung jacks the refresh rate way up on their monitors. Take a look at e.g. typing and scrolling here:
https://youtu.be/lXnZPvQiiPo?t=500
https://youtu.be/lXnZPvQiiPo?t=500
The problem I’ve had is just how jarring the transitions are on refresh. I don’t need it to run continuously at 24/29/60/120 FPS, but I do want it to load the next page in like 25ms. So imagine it taking more power to update the display, but it still isn’t refreshing continuously so would hopefully still have power consumption advantage.
(Even a drawing application could maybe handle it if you could refresh subsections of the display)
(Even a drawing application could maybe handle it if you could refresh subsections of the display)
At least for grayscale e-ink (Carta) displays they have this under control quite nicely. Full refresh isn't needed often, and when it's needed it's a fast rolling refresh rather than the traditional full screen blanking. Although I'm not sure if that is a reMarkable specific feature.
Ignoring the details of the physics and mechanics of how it would work of course :). My highest Physics grade was an NZ C+, so somewhere in the 55-60% range :)
If you don't mind power consumption then you can also use reflective LCD display's.
Brand like Pixel Qi offer those. They have 3 modes: backlight, reflective, and a combination of both. But to be fair the reflective mode always looks monochrome to me.
Brand like Pixel Qi offer those. They have 3 modes: backlight, reflective, and a combination of both. But to be fair the reflective mode always looks monochrome to me.
Why is that? Do you do a lot of computing outdoors in direct sunlight? I'll admit, the idea of a laptop whose LCD can go transparent to reveal an e-ink display behind it is very appealing.
> Why is that?
Not OP, but I daydream of a big character cell display for console work, especially my development work which is basically vi and a few other tools multiplexed in tmux. Not sure how it’d play out in reality, but in my mind it’s just more pleasant to work with hour over hour.
Not OP, but I daydream of a big character cell display for console work, especially my development work which is basically vi and a few other tools multiplexed in tmux. Not sure how it’d play out in reality, but in my mind it’s just more pleasant to work with hour over hour.
That close to why I got the Dasung: to be able to work outside. I’m mostly in tmux, Emacs, or reading docs, so the colors is irrelevant and refresh rates ok.
Ah cool! So you have practical experience - how’s that all going then? The biggest Dasung I saw on my quick search was ~13”, and very expensive; do you feel like yours was a worthwhile experience?
For me it's kind of pointless indoors and the weather is not yet ideal for outdoors. When I did use it outdoors (a couple of days) it worked as advertised, but using an external monitor was awkward. A notebook with the same panel would have been much better.
TL;DR: probably not, but I'm still evaluating. (A proper stand for it might also help - what's included is laughably flimsy)
TL;DR: probably not, but I'm still evaluating. (A proper stand for it might also help - what's included is laughably flimsy)
It wouldn't need an e-ink display. The backlight is separate from the display, remember the GameBoy Color? You just need a reflective layer that polarizes the light.
I do wonder why transflective displays went out of style. My PDAs from 2003-2007 were all perfectly viewable in direct sunlight in color.
This has a refresh rate of 25 SECONDS - so it's not going to replace your black and white kindle display or be useful for dynamic content.
Who remembers browsing the web/usenet on 28800Kbps modems?
I think you have an extra K on there! I do remember my 36 kbps modem though, but the web was optimized for that speed. Webpages had "image warnings"!
14.4kbps checking in.
Ah, 90s kids' nostalgia. How fun was it to start a large download before school and then running home to see if the download completed or was interrupted because your mom used the phone during the day? I remember it would take hours upon hours to download netscape. It was both exhilarating and infurating at the same time.
A slow modem (or indeed no modem!) is nothing like a 30s refresh rate.
A slow modem meant waiting hours though.
28 megabits per second?! I sure don't...
I remember reading BBSs over a 300 baud modem. If you read fast, you could read the text at the speed it came in.
1200 baud yo!
(It was actually a really neat little thing, I wish I still had it)
(It was actually a really neat little thing, I wish I still had it)
hahaha I found it!!!
https://digitaltmuseum.se/021026360857/modem
https://digitaltmuseum.se/021026360857/modem
I'd buy one of these for a picture frame, to have changeable art. Sounds nuts (?), but at some point a big one of these would cost less than a painting and you have it change to suit your mood.
...and I've been postponing buying an E-ink device in hopes of getting a color one!
One of my main excuses has been the fact color is useful for programming books because you have syntax highlighting. Now I'm realizing reflective color screens may never really come, and it's probably better to devise some kind of software workaround. Some kind of system that would replace colored fonts with a system of very distinctive set of typefaces that work well in B&W.
One of my main excuses has been the fact color is useful for programming books because you have syntax highlighting. Now I'm realizing reflective color screens may never really come, and it's probably better to devise some kind of software workaround. Some kind of system that would replace colored fonts with a system of very distinctive set of typefaces that work well in B&W.
This works out to be 0.04 frames per second! :(
1 frame / every 25 seconds = 0.04 frames per second
Bummer.
My oldest son is a voracious reader, and I would love to get him on an e reader, but I don't want to go for a traditional screen, so the lack of color e ink type option kinda stops me.
My oldest son is a voracious reader, and I would love to get him on an e reader, but I don't want to go for a traditional screen, so the lack of color e ink type option kinda stops me.
Does he only read comic books? Black and white screen is ideal for most of the world's books.
He reads just about anything but I'm not inclined to make an investment in a device that wouldn't include graphic novels and similar color content. I just don't think it would last.
I read a lot of comics, but I also read a lot of regular books. For now, I read using a 10" Chuwi tablet because it gives me a decent, color screen, at a decent size and weight, at a reasonable price.
I would LOVE to have an eink reader that could fulfill this role. I have been watching and waiting for years.
I would LOVE to have an eink reader that could fulfill this role. I have been watching and waiting for years.
Cached in Archive.org: https://web.archive.org/web/20200108221349/https://shopkits....
Is it archive.org or the original site that went out of it's way to force "smooth scrolling" on me?
Edit: original site is working now, it's them.
Edit: original site is working now, it's them.
There should be a Developers Pledge: I, [state your name], hereby agree upon pain of death to never do things like force smooth scrolling, override scroll speed, implement a header that bounces based on scroll direction, etc...
>override scroll speed
if anyone does that I'll find that person and kill them with dull spoon.
There is nothing more infuriating than that little thing - why would even anyone do that? what's the use case? why waste dev time on that?
if anyone does that I'll find that person and kill them with dull spoon.
There is nothing more infuriating than that little thing - why would even anyone do that? what's the use case? why waste dev time on that?
It's usually not dev, a product guy came up with a stupid idea with enough cash in hand, dev often oblige and for sure always find a way.
And the product guy did it because a sales team came in and said without load of color and animation then we won't be able to sell the product.
And the sales guy did it because a prospect said we really like all the features and the price but your product doesn't have as much color and animation as Acme Inc's product.
And the prospect did it because they actually prefer Acme Inc's product but they don't like Acme Inc's price so if they are going to have to go with the second choice product then let's get something done about the colors/animation before we close the sale.
And then we have the product guy coming back and working out what is the least or least worst thing we can do to remove the sales resistance, close out the sale and have everybody paid.
And the sales guy did it because a prospect said we really like all the features and the price but your product doesn't have as much color and animation as Acme Inc's product.
And the prospect did it because they actually prefer Acme Inc's product but they don't like Acme Inc's price so if they are going to have to go with the second choice product then let's get something done about the colors/animation before we close the sale.
And then we have the product guy coming back and working out what is the least or least worst thing we can do to remove the sales resistance, close out the sale and have everybody paid.
what a rare treat on HN, some actual understanding of systemic causality rather than glib dismissals of the "obvious bad guy" in the scenario.
I doubt the product guys even know what smooth scrolling is.
AirBnB does all of these things and breaks assets by caching corrupted downloads, as well as having gigantic, drive a fleet of rickshaws through a chasm of race conditions. I get ptsd from the anger management problems I’ll have in future when I think about using their software. Even now, I need to stop, it hurts.
AirBnB web team, if you read this. Fire your boss, their boss and then remove the org from your resume as you do a year or two traveling the world. Hopefully booking rooms by walking up and saying, ‘this places looks nice, do you have a room available?’
AirBnB web team, if you read this. Fire your boss, their boss and then remove the org from your resume as you do a year or two traveling the world. Hopefully booking rooms by walking up and saying, ‘this places looks nice, do you have a room available?’
The first time it sounds interesting, and until you try it in the real world you don't know for sure if it is a good idea or not. (some things that seemed like bad ideas have turned out really good - though that is somewhat rare it happens enough that trying something once is excusable). Trying it a second time though is generally stupid (unless you can come up with a significant twist that changes whatever made it bad the first time)
Also: never override the pinch-zoom. This should be an automatic accessibility failure unless your site actually is a full-screen zoomable map or similar.
... never add falling snowflakes effect during Christmas.
There should be a way to prevent it by default in browsers.
Only if it's created in the standardized way that browsers can disable. But if they go out of their way to catch mouse events and move the body of the page certain amount of pixels back or other crazy measures like that, then there is nothing a browser can and will ever be able to do about it.
Smooth scrolling is a CSS3 feature implemented by (many but not all) modern browsers so you'll be seeing it around a lot - see https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/scroll-beha... + https://drafts.csswg.org/cssom-view/#propdef-scroll-behavior
This looks like it will only animate the scrolling when clicking on anchor links? Doesn't seem that bad to me.
Mozilla link says
> Note that any other scrolls, such as those performed by the user, are not affected by this property.
> Note that any other scrolls, such as those performed by the user, are not affected by this property.
I want E Ink monitor for programming. It so much easier on the eyes (even if refresh rate is horrible)
I've messed around with this a bunch on some 9" hardware and custom waveforms to attempt to drive the display as hard as possible, it's almost certainly not what you want to be using, especially the color ones as they require multiple passes to actually attain the color. For my Color/Black/White panels that's normally rendering all the Black + Color as black, and then pulling the black pigment back as well to expose the Color one (red or yellow).
For the single color ones you can get sub-500ms latency for updating, at the cost of extreme ghosting. You need to do a lot of changes to the way you think about graphics to make this a reality. Think of an IRC program for example, normally every one of them scrolls up text from the bottom but this is completely a worst case solution for e-ink. To make it work you have to fill half the screen with text, then add new lines sequentially at the end and only scroll when you've run out of space. Additions can reasonably be done without a full refresh, scrolling text just causes it to mud out.
For the single color ones you can get sub-500ms latency for updating, at the cost of extreme ghosting. You need to do a lot of changes to the way you think about graphics to make this a reality. Think of an IRC program for example, normally every one of them scrolls up text from the bottom but this is completely a worst case solution for e-ink. To make it work you have to fill half the screen with text, then add new lines sequentially at the end and only scroll when you've run out of space. Additions can reasonably be done without a full refresh, scrolling text just causes it to mud out.
This is pretty spot on. I tried something similar a while back and found that the typing latency was on the order of ~120 ms which made it feel mushy and led to a lot of errors.
The need to rethink graphics to handle refreshes should not be underestimated. A lot of UI patterns (almost all animations and transitions) rely on a period refresh rate. In order to make a compelling experience you need to rework a good bit of the UI.
> the typing latency was on the order of ~120 ms
You'd just need to adjust to typing "by feel", without needing that instant feedback from the screen. A typewriter or teletype also has inherently high "latency", so this fits quite well with that whole "e-paper" approach.
You'd just need to adjust to typing "by feel", without needing that instant feedback from the screen. A typewriter or teletype also has inherently high "latency", so this fits quite well with that whole "e-paper" approach.
Could work like an electric typewriter. Keep the little LCD for the current line (or maybe 3-5) and let the E-ink be your “paper”.
Yeah, this is the best workaround. It is still slower and more error prone than typing on a standard LCD screen. Also, the benefit of an eInk reader is that it is easier to look at - not looking at the display sort of defeats the whole purpose.
https://youtu.be/jOYqXlsgo78
Seems like a similar dynamic to what these displays offered.
I got to work on one in the mid 80's
No scrolling, and multi-column output made sense.
Seems like a similar dynamic to what these displays offered.
I got to work on one in the mid 80's
No scrolling, and multi-column output made sense.
That’s beautiful.
They are something in person. Very cool old tech.
The one I worked on had a tape drive, paper tape read / punch for CNC machines, and an analog joystick.
It had a very powerful Basic that included a ton of graphics primitives, capable of many of the images shown. There was a demo tape similar to that video.
Storage tube CRT.
Editing text was done a screen at a time, overwrites done right over existing characters.
When it all got a bit messy, just refresh and carry on after it rendered current text to the screen. Sometimes, and this was often true for the files we were creating, multiple columns could be used to get a lot on the screen to work with, depending on widths.
The higher end ones did something like 4k pixels x 3k pixels.
If you wanted hard copy, you sent it to a pen plotter, or took a photo of the screen.
For text I/O, tape or paper tape.
I was 19 at the time. Had a chance to get one and didn't do it. Still regret it.
Now that we have these nice 4k displays, I am tempted to go find or write an emulation.
I think the CPU was a 6800 running at maybe a few Mhz, or maybe just 1Mhz.
The old "xterm" program has "Tektronix mode" as a command line option. One could send the graphics data and get a scaled bitmap output. I used to do it on SGI computers.
The one I worked on had a tape drive, paper tape read / punch for CNC machines, and an analog joystick.
It had a very powerful Basic that included a ton of graphics primitives, capable of many of the images shown. There was a demo tape similar to that video.
Storage tube CRT.
Editing text was done a screen at a time, overwrites done right over existing characters.
When it all got a bit messy, just refresh and carry on after it rendered current text to the screen. Sometimes, and this was often true for the files we were creating, multiple columns could be used to get a lot on the screen to work with, depending on widths.
The higher end ones did something like 4k pixels x 3k pixels.
If you wanted hard copy, you sent it to a pen plotter, or took a photo of the screen.
For text I/O, tape or paper tape.
I was 19 at the time. Had a chance to get one and didn't do it. Still regret it.
Now that we have these nice 4k displays, I am tempted to go find or write an emulation.
I think the CPU was a 6800 running at maybe a few Mhz, or maybe just 1Mhz.
The old "xterm" program has "Tektronix mode" as a command line option. One could send the graphics data and get a scaled bitmap output. I used to do it on SGI computers.
Sorry, 4k x 3k vector end points, or points on screen. No raster.
It could become feasible with a custom UI. You could have a version of vim or emacs that doesn't even "scroll" your code conventionally, but just gradually rewrites lines starting from the top down (or from the bottom up when scrolling "back"), sort of doing away with a unified viewport - this would at least address the most common operation in a dev environment that currently requires quick full-screen update.
I'm curious why?
My understanding is that if you simply turn the brightness on an LCD display down to whatever the ambient brightness is (hold a piece of white paper next to the screen to compare), that there is zero eyestrain over what paper or e-ink would be.
Have you tried that? It feels strange at first -- as if the screen feels "dim" -- but then once you realize the contrast is just fine, you get used to it within minutes.
(And in case you have a problem with glare, just get a matte screen covering, easy peasy.)
My understanding is that if you simply turn the brightness on an LCD display down to whatever the ambient brightness is (hold a piece of white paper next to the screen to compare), that there is zero eyestrain over what paper or e-ink would be.
Have you tried that? It feels strange at first -- as if the screen feels "dim" -- but then once you realize the contrast is just fine, you get used to it within minutes.
(And in case you have a problem with glare, just get a matte screen covering, easy peasy.)
One nice thing is that you can see the displayed image by whatever light you want. Outside, inside, firelight, incandescent, vapor-arc, [built-in] LED... whatever.
I have a feeling that the contrast is also better under dim light, but no evidence, so I might be full of shit. And LED/LCD tech is obviously getting better in this regard.
Still, if there was a good implementation of an E-ink monitor with a refresh rate good enough for text editing, I'd easily drop 10k on it. I spend hours every day writing and reading and my preference for staring at E-ink displays over all other technologies is no contest.
I have a feeling that the contrast is also better under dim light, but no evidence, so I might be full of shit. And LED/LCD tech is obviously getting better in this regard.
Still, if there was a good implementation of an E-ink monitor with a refresh rate good enough for text editing, I'd easily drop 10k on it. I spend hours every day writing and reading and my preference for staring at E-ink displays over all other technologies is no contest.
You can't really do this because the contrast becomes way too low for comfort. It could become feasible with OLED, but that comes with a preference for dark mode anyway (due to the well-known issues with OLED endurance) which inherently addresses eyestrain.
I believe this is a misconception, and I'm not sure where it comes from.
Blacks on LCD screens really are quite black -- and if you dim your screen to ambient brightness, they obviously become even blacker.
This is why I said it takes a few minutes to get used to -- it "seems" dim or low-contrast, but only because you're comparing it with the ultra-mega-high contrast your monitor has when turned up to high brightness. When compared to paper (where "black" ink often isn't that dark anyways, particularly with matte finish like most books), the contrast is certainly just as good.
Blacks on LCD screens really are quite black -- and if you dim your screen to ambient brightness, they obviously become even blacker.
This is why I said it takes a few minutes to get used to -- it "seems" dim or low-contrast, but only because you're comparing it with the ultra-mega-high contrast your monitor has when turned up to high brightness. When compared to paper (where "black" ink often isn't that dark anyways, particularly with matte finish like most books), the contrast is certainly just as good.
The GP is probably thinking of low-end TN panels, which really do have poor contrast, combined with significant variance in off-axis brightness and color reproduction, further exacerbating the problem. These were extremely common until only recently, with even Apple's pre-Retina MacBook Airs using them.
A modern IPS panel, however, can offer much higher contrast than most e-paper displays, and should offer a comparable experience to e-paper if set to an appropriate ambient brightness and color temperature. This last part is key, because otherwise, you end up with a harsh, bluish cast in residential lighting scenarios.
Most TVs and monitors can have their color temperature set manually, but the only OEM I'm aware of that is doing this automatically right now is Apple with its "True Tone" displays.
A modern IPS panel, however, can offer much higher contrast than most e-paper displays, and should offer a comparable experience to e-paper if set to an appropriate ambient brightness and color temperature. This last part is key, because otherwise, you end up with a harsh, bluish cast in residential lighting scenarios.
Most TVs and monitors can have their color temperature set manually, but the only OEM I'm aware of that is doing this automatically right now is Apple with its "True Tone" displays.
There is a complete difference between a light emitting screen and a light absorbing screen. Even backlit Kindles are much nicer to read on than iPads of the exact same "brightness".
You could drive down the backlight intensity to try and keep the contrast the same, but then the whole screen would start flickering like crazy due to PWM - and that's assuming that the hardware even supports being driven down to that level! It can also be hard to recover if you accidentally drive the backlight down too much or even turn it off altogether!
I'm not sure what you mean -- both my MacBook and iPad let me reduce the backlight intensity to very little, and there's zero "flickering like crazy" at all.
What devices have this problem? I've personally never encountered it on any LCD screens I've ever owned.
What devices have this problem? I've personally never encountered it on any LCD screens I've ever owned.
> both my MacBook and iPad let me reduce the backlight intensity to very little
I don't agree - I have a long-standing complaint that Apple doesn't let you reduce the brightness on their devices enough! I would definitely want to lower the brightness on my MacBook Pro more at night if I could.
On my Mac I've even used third-party software that overlays the screen with a semitransparent black square to darken it, but that reduces contrast. On my iPhone I use the accessibility filter to darken the screen.
I assume they've limited the minimum brightness due to PWM flicker.
I don't agree - I have a long-standing complaint that Apple doesn't let you reduce the brightness on their devices enough! I would definitely want to lower the brightness on my MacBook Pro more at night if I could.
On my Mac I've even used third-party software that overlays the screen with a semitransparent black square to darken it, but that reduces contrast. On my iPhone I use the accessibility filter to darken the screen.
I assume they've limited the minimum brightness due to PWM flicker.
So... yes, I've experimented with that on the Mac too (I think it was "Shady" or something?), so you certainly can.
But that doesn't reduce contrast beyond what's inherent in reducing brightness -- the blacks when the backlight is at minimum power in a dark room are black. You seriously don't get blacker than that in any practical sense that is relevant to the human eye, certainly not on the high-quality displays MacBooks have.
I don't know what you are trying to say with the word "contrast", but a utility like Shady does exactly what you're asking for -- reduces brightness below the minimum -- with zero negative optical side effects. It seems that whatever you're expecting it to do (dimmer but better contrast) is literally a physical impossibility.
But that doesn't reduce contrast beyond what's inherent in reducing brightness -- the blacks when the backlight is at minimum power in a dark room are black. You seriously don't get blacker than that in any practical sense that is relevant to the human eye, certainly not on the high-quality displays MacBooks have.
I don't know what you are trying to say with the word "contrast", but a utility like Shady does exactly what you're asking for -- reduces brightness below the minimum -- with zero negative optical side effects. It seems that whatever you're expecting it to do (dimmer but better contrast) is literally a physical impossibility.
Probably a fluorescent-backlight LCD rather than a LED-backlight LCD ?
EDIT : Huh, looks like both are susceptible to the issue, but diode-crystal has it actually worse than fluorescent-crystal ? https://www.infobyte.hr/blog/134/ccfl-vs-led-screen-backligh...
EDIT : Huh, looks like both are susceptible to the issue, but diode-crystal has it actually worse than fluorescent-crystal ? https://www.infobyte.hr/blog/134/ccfl-vs-led-screen-backligh...
LED brightness is usually modulated with PWM which involves turning them on for shorter periods of time. Eventually it appears to flicker.
Its not about how dim it is. Daylight is orders of magnitude brighter than any lightbulb out there and has different levels of color wavelengths. Dimming a screeen actually does the opposite of what you would get reading eink outdoors, even in the shade. This is why TV's and projectors have such a hard time reaching the required brightness levels to be seen in broad daylight.
This is thinking based on anecdotal evidence, and is not supported by scientific evidence.
LCDs do not inherently cause eye strain. Specific implementations of any display technology can, but not in general.
Some LCDs have backlights that flicker to reduce motion blur, and some people can be sensitive to this. Most panels do not have this technology. Avoid low-lag 144 Hz gaming displays if you're affected.
Low resolution LCDs can cause eyestrain due to the apparent blurriness of the image making the lens of the eye "hunt" back and forth looking for the ideal focal distance. Simply upgrading to a 4K or better fixes this. It did wonders for me, and now I refuse to use anything else.
People tend to sit at different distances from screens depending on the technology. People sit meters away from their TV, approximately 50-100cm from PC monitors, and within arms-length for handheld displays such as phones or eInk displays. For anyone with vision problems such as myopia, the displays that are held closer tend to cause less strain, but this has nothing to do with the panel technology.
Brighter displays cause the pupil to shrink, which improves the effective focus sharpness for people with astigmatism. There is an actual benefit of eInk displays in that they can be used with high-lux external illumination such as daylight. However, HDR LCD panels can hit an eye-searing 1000 nits sustained, and even the default 300 nits of a good quality panel is more than sufficient to reduce the pupil size to the minimum. Just turn the brightness up and sit in a reasonably well-lit room instead of darkness. The new hotness of dark themes flies in the face of the science of this. My eyes start to hurt within minutes from reading text on a dark background!
Glare from screen coatings also reduces contrast and the glass layer is often 1-2mm closer than the image surface. This can also cause "hunting" of the focus and eye strain. Avoid glossy screens, and clean your monitor regularly to get rid of smudges.
Most of the above is technology-independent. You can simply turn the brightness up on you LCD screen and sit closer or further depending on whether you have myopia or hyperopia.
I once had the pleasure of working with an 8K Dell monitor, and I can tell you from first-hand experience that it's amazing. It's like looking at an animated glossy magazine. Zero eye strain. Unfortunately, it strains the wallet, but the new 8K video "push" might bring some competition and lower prices...
LCDs do not inherently cause eye strain. Specific implementations of any display technology can, but not in general.
Some LCDs have backlights that flicker to reduce motion blur, and some people can be sensitive to this. Most panels do not have this technology. Avoid low-lag 144 Hz gaming displays if you're affected.
Low resolution LCDs can cause eyestrain due to the apparent blurriness of the image making the lens of the eye "hunt" back and forth looking for the ideal focal distance. Simply upgrading to a 4K or better fixes this. It did wonders for me, and now I refuse to use anything else.
People tend to sit at different distances from screens depending on the technology. People sit meters away from their TV, approximately 50-100cm from PC monitors, and within arms-length for handheld displays such as phones or eInk displays. For anyone with vision problems such as myopia, the displays that are held closer tend to cause less strain, but this has nothing to do with the panel technology.
Brighter displays cause the pupil to shrink, which improves the effective focus sharpness for people with astigmatism. There is an actual benefit of eInk displays in that they can be used with high-lux external illumination such as daylight. However, HDR LCD panels can hit an eye-searing 1000 nits sustained, and even the default 300 nits of a good quality panel is more than sufficient to reduce the pupil size to the minimum. Just turn the brightness up and sit in a reasonably well-lit room instead of darkness. The new hotness of dark themes flies in the face of the science of this. My eyes start to hurt within minutes from reading text on a dark background!
Glare from screen coatings also reduces contrast and the glass layer is often 1-2mm closer than the image surface. This can also cause "hunting" of the focus and eye strain. Avoid glossy screens, and clean your monitor regularly to get rid of smudges.
Most of the above is technology-independent. You can simply turn the brightness up on you LCD screen and sit closer or further depending on whether you have myopia or hyperopia.
I once had the pleasure of working with an 8K Dell monitor, and I can tell you from first-hand experience that it's amazing. It's like looking at an animated glossy magazine. Zero eye strain. Unfortunately, it strains the wallet, but the new 8K video "push" might bring some competition and lower prices...
When anecdotal evidence is specifically you it's something one would care about :). HiDPI is a must for me can't use a regular ones at all for more than an hour. 8K I def could use for personal side but unfortunately I don't have a decent way to drive it from work issued mbp.
I bought this one: http://www.dasungtech.com/
and it works surprisingly well. Definitely good enough for coding IMO. The only issue I had is that the drivers for Mac were very unreliable (but this was >1 yr ago).
My motivation was being able to work outside and I still plan on using it for that. This reminds me that I should check to see if they have driver updates...
My motivation was being able to work outside and I still plan on using it for that. This reminds me that I should check to see if they have driver updates...
I have the Dasung Not-eRader and it works pretty well for me. I connect it via the supplied HDMI/USB cable and it is recongnized as external monitor on Linux and I can program pretty normally using vim on a terminal.
I recently got a Dasung Paperlike display... It's pretty amazing! It has a reasonably high refresh rate and I can use it outside in full sun.
Cool thnx for the pointer will try it out.
I want one too, but it seems that most people don't care. Otherwise there would be a big demand for them.
It's hard for the market to process demand for something that doesn't exist yet.
For use in their main computing device, people would like an e-ink display that could reliably pull 30+ FPS while not costing a fortune, and preferably with some color capacity. They don't want a display from Kindle. Until the gap between that and what we have today is closed, the demand signal won't register.
FWIW, there was a huge initial demand back in the Kindle era; the e-reader use case was absolutely perfect for these screens. Nowadays, from what I can tell, the main demand for e-ink is in retail, for cheap electronic price displays. But that doesn't drive the progress of e-ink much, if in any way at all.
For use in their main computing device, people would like an e-ink display that could reliably pull 30+ FPS while not costing a fortune, and preferably with some color capacity. They don't want a display from Kindle. Until the gap between that and what we have today is closed, the demand signal won't register.
FWIW, there was a huge initial demand back in the Kindle era; the e-reader use case was absolutely perfect for these screens. Nowadays, from what I can tell, the main demand for e-ink is in retail, for cheap electronic price displays. But that doesn't drive the progress of e-ink much, if in any way at all.
Yeah, just see how smartwatches have moved towards usually-off transmittive LCDs instead of always-on transflective ones... (Which IS IMHO ridiculous...)
Yeah. I dread the day my Pebble Time gives up the ghost; I don't see any equivalent or better smartwatch on the market. I might actually start looking into good ol' mechanical watches instead.
It's the sort of thing that's nice on paper, but the practical limitations make it sort of useless for live updating content. I really like the devices for nearly static information displays because they're not bright and distracting, it's only noticeable if you want that information.
I want one for reading documentation late at night.
On nice mild spring days I want this so much, to be able to code outdoors without glare.
We have great weather here in the Bay Area but are often confined to offices to get our work done because of sunlight glare on our laptop screens.
I've always thought more people would choose to work outside if their laptop had a decent e-ink display that performed well in sunlight. Perhaps there'd even be outdoor co-working spaces complete with gardens, fountains, and grassy lawns to sprawl onto.
I've always thought more people would choose to work outside if their laptop had a decent e-ink display that performed well in sunlight. Perhaps there'd even be outdoor co-working spaces complete with gardens, fountains, and grassy lawns to sprawl onto.
I used to have a Toshiba Portege R500 which had a transreflective screen. It was an LCD that could be used in sunlight because incoming light got reflected back from behind the screen. The colors suffered a bit, but you could even switch off the backlight of the screen to save power. Seems to have gone out of fashion unfortunately..
http://www.ruggedpcreview.com/3_notebooks_toshiba_r500.html
http://www.ruggedpcreview.com/3_notebooks_toshiba_r500.html
I really loved that the screen on my pebble watch was always on and the thing managed a week of screen on time. The colors looked like crap compared to the newer smart watches but I still feel like something major was lost here.
Stop buying macbooks with glossy screens then.
What companies make consumer/hobbyist ePaper displays besides Waveshare? I'm looking for a 5"-7" ePaper display with fast/partial refresh that work with a Raspberry Pi, but the only one I've found is Waveshare's.
Replacement displays for ebook readers are not that expensive and someone has figured out how to drive them without the proprietary controller: http://essentialscrap.com/eink/
Wow those are super cheap.. I'm tempted to pick up one and I don't even have a use case yet.
This is still in kick-starter phase, but if you don't mind waiting a few months it has a lot of potential IMO:
https://www.crowdsupply.com/e-radionica/inkplate-6
https://www.crowdsupply.com/e-radionica/inkplate-6
4.2" (Which sounds like it's too small for your needs): https://www.adafruit.com/product/4142
Wow that one also has a 25s refresh rate
Buy an old amazon kindle for $20. You can root them and remote into them via ssh for display control
[deleted]
I believe Waveshare gets their panels from the same place good-display.com does. The Waveshare adapters work on good-display panels.
My understanding of electronic paper displays is almost entirely founded in the great Applied Science[0] video about it.
I have to assume that the way that a full color electronic paper display is done would be vastly different than the method that the 3 color displays work. Anyone have any insight into this?
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsbiO8EAsGw
I have to assume that the way that a full color electronic paper display is done would be vastly different than the method that the 3 color displays work. Anyone have any insight into this?
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsbiO8EAsGw
The way it's updating here, along with the description, give a good idea.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVANwwXtHEI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVANwwXtHEI
I was just looking to see if there were any decent ereaders that could handle research papers in PDF format. I couldn't find anything but I guess there's hope for one in the future.
Have you looked at the reMarkable tablet?
https://remarkable.com/
Great for reading PDFs as they're displayed at about real size.
https://remarkable.com/
Great for reading PDFs as they're displayed at about real size.
I love the hardware and they provide you root access. I really didn't like their software for document sync, but I installed syncthing and it works like a charm. Next step for me is to replace their document reader.
I would second this, its pricey at $600 (on sale for $500) but it does read well. My first 'ereader' type device was the iRex Iliad and it had similar features. I had really hoped that Plastic Logic would meet the need for an affordable and durable e-ink screen but they augured into the ground[1] based on their own hubris.
[1] Yes, there is a shell out there that owns the rights but the original effort/team was killed by shooting too high and flaming out.
[1] Yes, there is a shell out there that owns the rights but the original effort/team was killed by shooting too high and flaming out.
Looks neat, but $500? Yikes.
How is that expensive ? Unless you expect to only use it very rarely ?
While the writing feature may be good, it offers a very tiny subset of overall functionality than an iPad while being the same price.
Lack of color e-ink (even if only in 4 tones) is probably the only thing that is keeping me from ditching using lots and lots of paper. Can't wait for one, even if it's much more expensive than an iPad (which, BTW, always seemed to be a toy to me, but I hear that they got better...)
Yep, definitely a bit steep. I saved a little ($~100?) by going for the refurbished model though.
You probably want the Sony DPT-RP1. It's not cheap but that's basically the use case it was designed for.
My wife has the remarkable. It's nice, even if slightly too small for a 2 columns pdf. But the feeling of writing with the pen is simply fantastic.
On the not-so-bright side, the software is not the greatest and it has a few bugs and limitations.
On the not-so-bright side, the software is not the greatest and it has a few bugs and limitations.
If you can find it, the Kindle DX can be a good solution too. The screen is 9.7", big enough to fit an A4 paper. And it can read PDFs and allows uploads via USB cable.
Sadly, Amazon has discontinued it. And newer tablets are probably faster and/or have better resolution. But if you're willing to change its battery once it dies, a second hand one could be what you want.
Sadly, Amazon has discontinued it. And newer tablets are probably faster and/or have better resolution. But if you're willing to change its battery once it dies, a second hand one could be what you want.
ReMarkable might work for this but isn't color, if that's what you're looking for. Nice form factor for PDFs and really good e-writing functionality IMO.
You can try covert a lot of them to 6' using k2pdfopt
You can also look into Likebook and Boox brands which has various Android 10/13 inch eink tablet.
i think the ReMarkable might be of interest
Rumours tell that next generation ReMarkable 2 is just around the corner, possible release in January.
Still probably won't be in color, considering the ongoing progress...
I really want somebody to use one of these to make a picture frame you hang on the wall with no power cable.. just a spot in the frame for AA batteries, and some kind of low power Bluetooth connection to your phone to update the picture via an app.
The most interesting new-old startup in this space the past couple years is clearInk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjJ2-cdhwMQ
..but they haven't shipped anything yet AFAIK. And no idea how electronics/etc is hidden around their demo frames.
..but they haven't shipped anything yet AFAIK. And no idea how electronics/etc is hidden around their demo frames.
They state they are targeting education in developing markets, so that sounds like they (believe they) have a way to scale this and make it very affordable.
Eh, I'll believe it when I see it. Saying this from a perspective of:
- Usually reading seeing what's new in this space every year. Wrote my last comment in https://lobste.rs/s/ahy28r/remarkable_perfect_tablet_for_aca... .
- Taking some of the "developing markets" speech with a grain of "geek heresy" salt. It's out of my domain, but from what I've heard there's been a problem where technology in education has been rushed to as a cost-savings mechanism yet in practice the content / usability issues make the education experience worse.
- Usually reading seeing what's new in this space every year. Wrote my last comment in https://lobste.rs/s/ahy28r/remarkable_perfect_tablet_for_aca... .
- Taking some of the "developing markets" speech with a grain of "geek heresy" salt. It's out of my domain, but from what I've heard there's been a problem where technology in education has been rushed to as a cost-savings mechanism yet in practice the content / usability issues make the education experience worse.
Love the idea of these, after multiple botched attempts to deliver over the last decade. But refresh rate was always the killer for most applications. While I don't expect it to be a gaming monitor, any news on whether the refresh rate has improved? As a baseline, some companies are getting 7.5 fps with greyscale.
At this price just doesnt matter what size of display is or anything else. It is like selling toothpicks for 10 dollars. Yes they are usefull, yes I would like to have them, but the price is so overblown that I would feel stupid if I would buy it.
Eink is a typical case where instead of scaling up, they try to get rich by much too expensive product. This is a maximum stupidity as instead anyone having their product in their home, they will also loose the ebook market over time.
The second option, the technology is just not there yet and they have problems manufacturing it in large quantities.
Eink is a typical case where instead of scaling up, they try to get rich by much too expensive product. This is a maximum stupidity as instead anyone having their product in their home, they will also loose the ebook market over time.
The second option, the technology is just not there yet and they have problems manufacturing it in large quantities.
I had this idea, probably more than 10 years ago now, to have an e-ink display on my wall which does nothing other than show me my calendar. Every couple of years I go hunting for a simple and affordable display that's at least 13 inches, but preferably larger. I don't even care if it's colour or not.
The closest I can find is those picture frames that people have. But to auto update them over the network, they always seem to require the use of some crappy online intermediary. And they're always way more expensive than they should be.
The closest I can find is those picture frames that people have. But to auto update them over the network, they always seem to require the use of some crappy online intermediary. And they're always way more expensive than they should be.
I turned my old ebook into a weather and subway screen: https://fluffyelephant.com/2015/12/reuse-my-ebook-reader/
Any ebook that can be hacked to run "regular" android will do the job, since you will need to turn off the auto-sleep settings. I then used the stock browser to show a simple webpage with some small javascript. Benefit of using the stock browser was that sony had implemented partial refresh...so when the subway times update every 10 seconds it doesn't cause a full screen refresh.
Wifi needs to be rock solid, had quite a few problems with my old linksys....no problems since I switched to unifi.
Any ebook that can be hacked to run "regular" android will do the job, since you will need to turn off the auto-sleep settings. I then used the stock browser to show a simple webpage with some small javascript. Benefit of using the stock browser was that sony had implemented partial refresh...so when the subway times update every 10 seconds it doesn't cause a full screen refresh.
Wifi needs to be rock solid, had quite a few problems with my old linksys....no problems since I switched to unifi.
If anyone wants to play with bw e-ink displays in the form of e-book reader you easily can. I've ported mainline Linux to PocketBook Touch Lux 3 and I'm now playing with making userspace apps. You can just pick the kernel load it to uSD card, put it in the device and you'll be able to boot Arch Linux or whatever and play around.
http://linux-sunxi.org/PocketBook_Touch_Lux_3
http://linux-sunxi.org/PocketBook_Touch_Lux_3
Where does one purchase this e-ink reader? I can't find them anywhere, and their own website link for it seems broken.
This one is not manufactured anymore, it was replaced with Touch Lux 4. (it's probably almost the same thing inside, with very small differences, most of their eink readers are A13 based, even some of the expensive hi-res ones).
You can buy it second hand, or with a broken display and replace the display (that's what I did).
You can buy it second hand, or with a broken display and replace the display (that's what I did).
I would really love to have lichess and sgt puzzles on an e-ink device.
I have looked into low-power color displays and I think their competitor [1] is currently better positioned. My understanding is their eink has somewhat better light transmission, but their refresh rate is much, much slower than the competition. I'm looking forward to seeing the products made from these faster displays, which I believe are coming later this year.
1: https://www.clearinkdisplays.com/solutions
1: https://www.clearinkdisplays.com/solutions
The progress towards digital paper has been really slow. Sometimes I wonder if there is an alternate timeline in which we pursued eink-like displays earlier on. It would be amazing to watch a movie on this kind of display if the refresh rate could permit it. I wrote about this on my blog http://stephanango.com/the-elusiveness-of-digital-paper
Site isn’t loading for me. Am I the only one?
I got an nginx error after a long wait, I think it is being hugged to death.
Here's an archive.org link: http://web.archive.org/web/20200108221349/https://shopkits.e...
Here's an archive.org link: http://web.archive.org/web/20200108221349/https://shopkits.e...
Lol, I have never heard it put this say, but seems exactly right: "hugged to death"! =D
[deleted]
Site is loading this URL for me:
https://shopkits.eink.com/product/atelier-with-13-3%cb%9d-ac...
https://shopkits.eink.com/product/atelier-with-13-3%cb%9d-ac...
Same here.
slashdotted!
Any details on how they made this work? How much power does it draw? This could have a tremendous impact. You can basically replace every surface with the programmable display, assuming mass-manufactured cost savings. Walls on your home or office, dining table, the exterior of the car!
I've long thought that it would be great to replace all kinds of signage wit eInk. Time tables on public transport, any kind of announcement that's typically printed on paper,... There's lots of stuff with a low refresh rate (sometimes in the order of months) that could benefit from being easier to update, but that isn't worth replacing by power hungry, overly bright, hard to read LCDs. Hell, there are a lot of cases where LCDs are used wher eInk would be a much better fit. Things like meeting room reservation screens, for instance.
With largeish colour displays, maybe that'll all finally become a reality.
With largeish colour displays, maybe that'll all finally become a reality.
Meeting room reservation screens should work well with even low-power transflective LCDs ?
[deleted]
This is great. I was dreaming about large full colour e-reader since like 10 years ago, when I bought my first PocketBook. Now, TBH, I'm kinda used to reading on regular displays, mostly since I carry my phone all day long anyway. But if there will be a good reader like that I'm pretty sure I'll buy it. If nothing else, being usable without a daily recharge is huge by modern standards. It's virtually impossible to buy anything now that can last for a couple of days without recharging anymore.
Not sure about glass though.
Not sure about glass though.
How does long term UV exposure (sunlight) affect pigments in a product like this? It seems like a cool idea for large format signs, but how long until everything looks like burnt green-blue?
Well, there are lots of pigments out there available that hold well to long-term UV exposure... Even if you're talking decades, I don't think that metal-based pigments uv-degrade easily ?
This would be awesome for comic books.
Any 10+inch color LCD display of 250dpi or higher works well for comic books. It turns out that if you make a tablet capable of showing HD video at 60fps, it can show you comic book pages quite well.
I use an Amazon Kindle Fire Ow It Burns HD10 for this, because it's at the minimum intersection of suitable hardware and price.
I use an Amazon Kindle Fire Ow It Burns HD10 for this, because it's at the minimum intersection of suitable hardware and price.
I think the Kindle Fire makes you jump through hoops to get apps via the Google Play store though and as I understand it, you need to do that in order to get Marvel Unlimited on there, which is something many people really want to have on their comics-reading device.
I think I rooted that sucker before installing everything I wanted. I don't think it's a suitable device for everyone.
You'll probably want to avoid any apps from Google Play anyway...
I've been waiting for something like this to use as a digital photo frame. It lets you have see all your photos without having it glowing at you when you go to bed.
God this would be great if we could get an Android color e-ink reader released so I could do Safari Books. The O'Reilly thing is a pretty good deal if you're a serial-tech-book-reader like I am, but I absolutely hate reading off the computer screen or my iPhone, but I don't mind reading regular text off my Kindle.
I know that there's the Onyx Boox Android thing, but that's only black and white, and technical books are occasionally in color.
I know that there's the Onyx Boox Android thing, but that's only black and white, and technical books are occasionally in color.
[deleted]
fwiw the sony letter-size monochrome e-reader is amazing
reading PDFs on a device that doesn't burn out your eyes and can't receive notifications or produce audio is like a digital detox
all my favorite devices recently are low- and no-connection (voice memo, yubikey) and work fast with limited UX
reading PDFs on a device that doesn't burn out your eyes and can't receive notifications or produce audio is like a digital detox
all my favorite devices recently are low- and no-connection (voice memo, yubikey) and work fast with limited UX
This is the imitation of the Sony digital paper version ??? Similar price tags too.
Looks like fun! Perhaps another thing to add to my box of barely used devkits. I've clicked through their site but I'm not seeing a real data sheet or any information about the gamut etc. Did I just miss it?
Nope you haven't missed anything, their user manual for it is very sparse (to put it nicely). At least it comes with a pinout? Another user was saying ~25 second refresh rates.
"$799.00 (Tax excl.)" it's probably not the for companies buying thousands of them. But what would you expect is the price?
End user products with this display probably are way over 1000 or 2000 USD.
End user products with this display probably are way over 1000 or 2000 USD.
Holy shit, they finally did it. I interviewed for a coop with eInk back in 2009-2010 and they had mentioned they were working on full color back then. Very happy to hear they finally got there.
I keep wishing for a large enough display I could use it as a digital picture frame. I was looking at eink's offerings just yesterday after hearing about Lenovo's new 21" frame.
If you wanna help hack the kindle: http://fread.ink/
Reminds me that my Kindle has been going strong for 7 years.
> "... Glass..."
Oof, that brings back a couple of unfond memories of cracked displays in the early ebook reader era. Hope they are able to develop a plastic substrate version.
Oof, that brings back a couple of unfond memories of cracked displays in the early ebook reader era. Hope they are able to develop a plastic substrate version.
Looks like it may be coming soon:
"The new printing process alleviates the need for a glass-based CFA"
https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20200107005530/en/
Its about time. Can't wait to get one. Hopefully it would only be like another 10 years before you can watch video on one of these.
It's 4:3! 1600×1200, 285.80mm (W) × 213.65mm (H). I keep looking for 4:3 non-CRT displays; what a pleasant surprise.
Make something 16 inches and lightweight. So that you can make it display an actual A4 "paper" and hold it in your hand.
Hopefully we'll soon live in a world with solar powered electronics that use foldable e-ink displays.
I would love to have eink as my main monitor. I am sick of stareing to LED-backlit screens for 9/5.
It would be amazing if monochrome 13,3" e-ink displays would go on sale at an affordable price some day.
Aren't they ? What would be "affordable" for you ?
I think I'd be willing to pay about 230€ for the screen. Maybe 300-350€ for a device with a free operating system and very good UX (but I wouldn't be afraid of building that myself).
Make that 23€ instead :
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21997599
EDIT : Oops, that's for 6"... For 13" it seems to start at $450 ? :/ https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=13.3%22+e-ink...
Would it be practical to jury-rig four 6" together ??
EDIT : Oops, that's for 6"... For 13" it seems to start at $450 ? :/ https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=13.3%22+e-ink...
Would it be practical to jury-rig four 6" together ??
Could not find a refresh rate in the documentation, or how many colors it can create. I also saw something about it having to compensate for temperature with 7 different maps from 0°-50°C. You can see it on page 8 of the User Manual.
Per below vid,
Refresh time: ~25 seconds
Colors: 32,000
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVANwwXtHEI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVANwwXtHEI
Do they actually mean 32768 colors?
Probably just 3 colors, 5 bits of brightness levels per color (aka "16-bit").
While it's very cool that this is now possible, I think this has almost no use case. A business that is able to afford e-ink's high prices could also buy an LCD/OLED, which could also show motion and much better colors.
E-ink advantage is not about price/motion/colors. Is about how close it is with printed paper, where external light like the Sun helps the visibility. It’s also interesting regarding energy requirements, as you can keep the image displayed without the need of power.
One of the reasons I keep an eye on eInk is that I love the idea of information radiators, but I always get stymied by running wires to a suitable spot. Data has been mostly solved, power has not.
Seems like the site is suffering from the Slashdot effect.
All I want is an e-ink display for my monitor!
A competent company would have pursued the signage market aggressively many years ago and would have had a massive revenue stream from that by now.
E Ink displays have recently started showing up as price tags on grocery shelves, which is promising for the future of low cost, low power displays. I am not sure if these are supplied by Eink or if patents are expiring and competitors are moving into the market.