The NBA bans customers from putting ‘freehongkong’ on customized league jerseys(twitter.com)
twitter.com
The NBA bans customers from putting ‘freehongkong’ on customized league jerseys
https://twitter.com/ClayTravis/status/1282731020647895043
294 comments
140 bucks for a jersy, damn lol
I bought one of these for about $80 nearly a decade ago and still holds up good despite all the sun and abuse. Compared to most clothing out there it's certainly made well. I have a lot of respect for clothes that last, too much stuff, even high priced, is basically unwearable in a year or two, which is incredibly wasteful.
It’s ~$80 for a men’s NBA jersey. I’ve never been able to understand why they want to charge me out the ass for me to advertise their product. If I was the NBA, I’d give jerseys away like candy and install basketball courts in every park I could in the US to keep interest high in basketball.
Because the best advertisement for their product is people who are actually into the product. You don't need to give away stuff to them to keep them interested, because the product speaks for itself. Furthermore, seeing more basketball around is not going to turn non-fans into fans. To do that you need something that transcends the sport such as a Michael Jordan or 2015 Warriors.
Now, outside the US in places where NBA has not yet saturated your approach makes more sense, but you could also burn a lot of cash for no returns if you're not careful.
Now, outside the US in places where NBA has not yet saturated your approach makes more sense, but you could also burn a lot of cash for no returns if you're not careful.
Licensing the brands is how they make their money. They keep interest in basketball high so they can sell expensive shirts, not the other way around. Honesty it would be great if pro sports could be run by nonprofits who cared more about inspiring kids to exercise/be active and less about appeasing the Chinese government
Why give them away for free when people will pay you to advertise your business?
Because they can put your favorite player name and number on it. People are massive fans of these players. I don’t think that the NBA really needs to keep interest high in basketball, because there are already basketball courts everywhere and people have been playing it for 130 years.
They had fixed it so you could as of 1830cst 13jul2020 last I was poking around
This shouldn't be surprising to people. The NBA has a bigger fanbase in China than in the USA.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-10-09/china-s-5...
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-10-09/china-s-5...
> This shouldn't be surprising to people. The NBA has a bigger fanbase in China than in the USA.
I disagree. The size of the fanbase is surprising, and so is the implication of this behaviour
I disagree. The size of the fanbase is surprising, and so is the implication of this behaviour
Agreed. I had no idea that the NBA of all things was beholden to the Chinese market already.
The memes making fun of the NBA kowtowing to the CCP have been circulating since last year, IIRC. It's a sad state of things.
and REALLY took off after the Rockets GM publicly tweeted out against China earlier this year, while the rest of the league ripped into him including LeBron (despite LeBron trying to play up the more than an athlete idea about himself).
It's what you get when the leading factor determining your values is profit. The NBA doesn't have American values, it has Capitalist values.
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The business value for a nation of fans = (Number of fans) x (avg profitability per fan) x (probability of losing fan over political decision)
I would argue that while US fans are more profitable in aggregate (first two terms) the reason the NBA sides with China is due to the 3rd term.
Chinese fans are vastly more sensitive to perceived "anti-Chinese" policies, whereas most US fans don't care one way or the other.
Therefor the NBA's position is very predictable. If you want the NBA to care, you have to convince US NBA fans that this political stance is worth not spending money on. Good luck with that because the NBA fans I know, don't care at all.
I would argue that while US fans are more profitable in aggregate (first two terms) the reason the NBA sides with China is due to the 3rd term.
Chinese fans are vastly more sensitive to perceived "anti-Chinese" policies, whereas most US fans don't care one way or the other.
Therefor the NBA's position is very predictable. If you want the NBA to care, you have to convince US NBA fans that this political stance is worth not spending money on. Good luck with that because the NBA fans I know, don't care at all.
I'd argue that the chinese fans might not be the problem. Their government would be since they can just ban the NBA for their "anti-Chinese" stance.
> The NBA has a bigger fanbase in China than in the USA.
Só what? Why should that dictate what letters I can or cannot put o the custom jersey I buy myself and pay with my own money?
Só what? Why should that dictate what letters I can or cannot put o the custom jersey I buy myself and pay with my own money?
Because the CCP is a totalitarian government whose dictator banned Winnie the Pooh [1] after he was offended by a couple of memes. If people started wearing “freehongkong” jerseys it wouldn’t be out of the realm of possibility that the NBA gets banned in China. Clearly the NBA does not want this.
Critics are right to hold the NBA’s feet to the fire for this kowtowing behaviour. A lot of people are unaware of the degree to which China is extending its influence into Western countries.
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/07/china-bans-win...
Critics are right to hold the NBA’s feet to the fire for this kowtowing behaviour. A lot of people are unaware of the degree to which China is extending its influence into Western countries.
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/07/china-bans-win...
Winnie the Pooh is not banned, despite what that article says.
You can easily buy Winne the Pooh toys, books, and entertainment in China. There’s even a huge Winnie the Pooh ride in Shanghai Disney.
You can easily buy Winne the Pooh toys, books, and entertainment in China. There’s even a huge Winnie the Pooh ride in Shanghai Disney.
That's the wrong point, you misunderstand the situation.
The article was about caricatures and the movie, which both were definitely and verifiably censored and suppressed. (As usual, the bans are unevenly and arbitrarily enforced.)
You talk about toys and books, which are not a problem.
The article was about caricatures and the movie, which both were definitely and verifiably censored and suppressed. (As usual, the bans are unevenly and arbitrarily enforced.)
You talk about toys and books, which are not a problem.
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Presumably there was some risk assessment done by the NBA and they felt that allowing you to customize your jersey in such a way would risk shareholder value.
> Why should that dictate what letters I can or cannot put o the custom jersey I buy myself and pay with my own money?
Because the PRC will cut them off if they allow this, and the USA won't if they don't. And, so, serving the interest of capital says “knuckle under to the PRC”.
This is also why Hollywood movie studios do the same thing, and all kinds of other industries.
A neoliberal international order where major players are totalitarian corporatist states is a disaster for liberty, even beyond the ways a neoliberal international order is with all “democratic” capitalist participants.
Because the PRC will cut them off if they allow this, and the USA won't if they don't. And, so, serving the interest of capital says “knuckle under to the PRC”.
This is also why Hollywood movie studios do the same thing, and all kinds of other industries.
A neoliberal international order where major players are totalitarian corporatist states is a disaster for liberty, even beyond the ways a neoliberal international order is with all “democratic” capitalist participants.
Because they’re made in China, and the supplier rejects it, I assume.
It’s nuts how we’ve all managed to talk around the core issue in this discussion.
‘Free Hong Kong’ has no racial or ethnic slurs or any profanity.
I wonder if I can buy a jersey that says “Free Uyghurs”. Where’s the line?
‘Free Hong Kong’ has no racial or ethnic slurs or any profanity.
I wonder if I can buy a jersey that says “Free Uyghurs”. Where’s the line?
Which is why millionaire players and coaches are absolutely mute (or are muted) on any China issue, or claim that the issue is complicated.
I think it's healthy to remind people, from time to time, how Hollywod (e.g. Tencent), the NBA, and other American institutions have sold themselves to CCP money.
I think it's healthy to remind people, from time to time, how Hollywod (e.g. Tencent), the NBA, and other American institutions have sold themselves to CCP money.
Not sure why amznthrwaway is being voted down, but he has a good point.
Americans are used to others having to tiptoe around their sensibilities, and now they're finding out what adhering to a foreign culture's value system is like.
Americans are used to others having to tiptoe around their sensibilities, and now they're finding out what adhering to a foreign culture's value system is like.
> Americans are used to others having to tiptoe around their sensibilities
Always seemed quite the opposite to me, so much so that the most ardent opposition to "American sensibilities" is from inside America itself.
Always seemed quite the opposite to me, so much so that the most ardent opposition to "American sensibilities" is from inside America itself.
There is a big difference between not spoiling the 'america #1' for a big target audience and not talking about human rights violations to avoid being locked out by a government.
One is about the sensitivities of the people buying, one is about a government forcefully taking over a country and that government stopping you from saying anything about it.
One is about the sensitivities of the people buying, one is about a government forcefully taking over a country and that government stopping you from saying anything about it.
I think he is being voted down for many reasons but not for the point you make.
When someone makes statements calling all American racists against non-whites they forget millions of non-white American people they casually toss aside to make their point. In this day and age can we move past that the false premise that all Americans are white?
When someone makes statements calling all American racists against non-whites they forget millions of non-white American people they casually toss aside to make their point. In this day and age can we move past that the false premise that all Americans are white?
I'm not disagreeing, but I also don't know what you mean. I'm trying to imagine something, say for example, Sony would have to prevent users from doing on their gaming platform that would otherwise cause millions of American Playstation fans to stop using their consoles. I tried to think of a sports league analogy, but I don't think there are any foreign sports leagues that are popular enough here to make a proper analogy.
Show a nipple?
There are plenty of nipples on cable TV (and the internet). What you can't do is broadcast a nipple on over the air TV.
There are many American cable TV channels that forbid nipples simply because advertisers forbid it. Exceptions to this, channels like HBO, are able to show nipples because they aren't beholden to advertisers.
I think that would grow the number of Playstation users. Microsoft would have to add nipples to compete.
It's particularly egregious to be promoting yourself as an organization that opposes racism when you are making money selling jerseys and shoes sown by Uygher slaves in concentration camps. There is a systematic government program to rape, forcibly sterilize, and ethnically cleanse this population.
The NBA, together with the stars taking the merchandise contracts need to admit that they have zero problem with racism, genocide, rape, and slavery as long as it's not their own people and as long as they can profit from it. I think the public would respect them more if they did that.
It's a dog eat dog world, and Lebron's gotta eat.
The NBA, together with the stars taking the merchandise contracts need to admit that they have zero problem with racism, genocide, rape, and slavery as long as it's not their own people and as long as they can profit from it. I think the public would respect them more if they did that.
It's a dog eat dog world, and Lebron's gotta eat.
amznthrwaway(3)
The Houston backlash is just starting to fade. NBA is trying to avoid a repeat of this:
https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/07/business/houston-rockets-nba-...
https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/07/business/houston-rockets-nba-...
I'm curious what Chinese jersey buyers put on the back of their jerseys.
It doesn't have to be surprising to be outrageous.
It seems really random that the Chinese are so into NBA.
What next, Greeks being really into American gangsta rap music?
China has a long history with basketball. It was one of few western sports that was explicitly kept during the Cultural Revolution. I've read that teamwork and communal nature of the game appealed to Chinese leadership. If you visit China, you'll see recreational basketball courts everywhere. There are courts by the airport, courts outside the Forbidden Palace, etc.
Then with an NBA focused on expanding its international fan base and Yao Ming, popularity grew even more.
Then with an NBA focused on expanding its international fan base and Yao Ming, popularity grew even more.
> I've read that teamwork and communal nature of the game appealed to Chinese leadership.
How is basketball different from almost any team sport in this regard?
How is basketball different from almost any team sport in this regard?
Every school in China has a Basketball field. Not common for other team sports.
Edit: Japanese comic “slum dunk” has a huge cultural impact to those were born around 90s. NBA starts broadcasting to China around 95, Jordan, Iverson, Kobe became super idol since then. Not to mention Yao Ming. Also China team sports is pretty weak, only volleyball and basketball stands out(China’s soccer team suck, tell that to any Chinese and they will agree lol)
Edit: Japanese comic “slum dunk” has a huge cultural impact to those were born around 90s. NBA starts broadcasting to China around 95, Jordan, Iverson, Kobe became super idol since then. Not to mention Yao Ming. Also China team sports is pretty weak, only volleyball and basketball stands out(China’s soccer team suck, tell that to any Chinese and they will agree lol)
Cheap to play and doesn't take up as much space as soccer, so good for urban environments. Same reason why basketball is so popular in US inner cities.
Are Americans unaware of how influential their own cultural export is? Have you not noticed how in every city you can find people wearing Yankees baseball caps with that characteristic logo?
Most countries have rappers now, emulating the style.
If there's a village out there that doesn't buy American cultural products, there is someone whose job it is to sell it to them.
Most countries have rappers now, emulating the style.
If there's a village out there that doesn't buy American cultural products, there is someone whose job it is to sell it to them.
I think a lot of Americans are unaware of how much Hollywood has become an export business, such that a movie can kind of flop in the US and be a spectacular success elsewhere. My impression is that has been the case for quite a while.
Yao Ming was probably one of the first Chinese players of a foreign sport in a foreign league, and the NBA was very happy to promote this connection.
Yao Ming was also one of the elite centers in the NBA during his prime (just behind Shaq). A 7’6 tall guy that could hit a jumper and make all his free throws (couldn’t foul him in the paint, or he’d make you pay). Injuries did him in, but he was nothing short of amazing even if he didn’t come from China.
Quick wiki research:
There have been regular Houston Rockets games that had over 200 million viewers from China. The super bowl has about 100 million in comparison.
At the scale we’re talking about, this will become a recurring issue across many industries as you simply can’t deny the power of the Chinese market.
Quick wiki research:
There have been regular Houston Rockets games that had over 200 million viewers from China. The super bowl has about 100 million in comparison.
At the scale we’re talking about, this will become a recurring issue across many industries as you simply can’t deny the power of the Chinese market.
It's not anymore random than people from the US using products made in China.
The distribution of American cultural exports is far reaching.
Gangsta rap came to Greece in 1997... [0]
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_hip_hop
The distribution of American cultural exports is far reaching.
Gangsta rap came to Greece in 1997... [0]
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_hip_hop
Is it random they're into basketball or that they're into a foreign league? People follow lots of foreign soccer leagues, this is the same thing.
Basketball is a quite popular sport internationally, unlike the 2 other big American inventions: baseball and football.
Only a handful of countries outside the US have professional baseball leagues[1]. And other than Canada I don't know any country that has a professional football (gridiron) league.
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_baseball
Basketball is a quite popular sport internationally, unlike the 2 other big American inventions: baseball and football.
Only a handful of countries outside the US have professional baseball leagues[1]. And other than Canada I don't know any country that has a professional football (gridiron) league.
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_baseball
Rugby kinda fills the football hole and cricket is a good baseball replacement.
Korea has baseball leagues.
Mexico has football, Japan, Brazil, China and Poland.
Korea has baseball leagues.
Mexico has football, Japan, Brazil, China and Poland.
Basketball requires less space than many other games, and more easily scales from one person to many. The low space requirement makes it a very friendly game for cities where space is often a premium.
It's spycraft, a way for US culture and influence to penetrate China. It's deliberate.
If anything, it seems more like spycraft for Chinese culture and influence to penetrate the U.S.:
American Basketball vs. Chinese Hardball: Guess Who Won https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/13/world/asia/china-nba-cens...
NBA Stars Study Hollywood’s Playbook in China https://www.wsj.com/articles/nba-stars-study-hollywoods-play...
NBA, 'South Park' episodes spotlight Hollywood's China dilemma https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-hollywood/nba-south...
‘South Park’ creators issue mocking ‘apology’ after China reportedly bans sitcom https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1KCVj_v0ik
Band in China https://southpark.cc.com/full-episodes/s23e02-band-in-china
American Basketball vs. Chinese Hardball: Guess Who Won https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/13/world/asia/china-nba-cens...
NBA Stars Study Hollywood’s Playbook in China https://www.wsj.com/articles/nba-stars-study-hollywoods-play...
NBA, 'South Park' episodes spotlight Hollywood's China dilemma https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-hollywood/nba-south...
‘South Park’ creators issue mocking ‘apology’ after China reportedly bans sitcom https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1KCVj_v0ik
Band in China https://southpark.cc.com/full-episodes/s23e02-band-in-china
How many Chinese-broadcast basketball games are American basketball fans watching? :)
Spycraft is covert. Replacing the culture of a nation with one's own is imperialism. A couple centuries ago it used to be done by force. Now it's done via economic means.
It's interesting how China is turning the globalist policies of developed countries into power. The government bans a cartoon character due to memes and suddenly lots of huge companies start censoring themselves out of fear. The US may have freedom of speech but it doesn't matter if China is the bigger market.
It's interesting how China is turning the globalist policies of developed countries into power. The government bans a cartoon character due to memes and suddenly lots of huge companies start censoring themselves out of fear. The US may have freedom of speech but it doesn't matter if China is the bigger market.
> Replacing the culture of a nation with one's own is imperialism.
Protip: this is the covert part. Who convinced you that's what's happening? Riling up Americans to make a lot of noise about how "China is totally getting one over on us, we swear" makes it realistic and keeps those things in China as sources of American cultural osmosis. If Disney or NBA "took a stand" then they would get the boot just like South Park did once Matt & Trey took the fall (and ton of free publicity) to prove that possibility is real.
For what it's worth I also absolutely see e.g. TikTok as the same concept in a slightly different domain and operating in the other direction. I don't know where I stand on "banning" it in America since the idea does offend my inner libertarian but China already set the precedent there many many times over.
Protip: this is the covert part. Who convinced you that's what's happening? Riling up Americans to make a lot of noise about how "China is totally getting one over on us, we swear" makes it realistic and keeps those things in China as sources of American cultural osmosis. If Disney or NBA "took a stand" then they would get the boot just like South Park did once Matt & Trey took the fall (and ton of free publicity) to prove that possibility is real.
For what it's worth I also absolutely see e.g. TikTok as the same concept in a slightly different domain and operating in the other direction. I don't know where I stand on "banning" it in America since the idea does offend my inner libertarian but China already set the precedent there many many times over.
The blowback in the form of deleterious effects to US culture and free speech seems to outweigh any benefit we are getting.
If it is, the spies are doing a terrible job of it, as the league is attempting to prevent Americans from espousing messages that offend China.
I guess Clay "Republicans Buy Sneakers Too" Travis forgot Chinese buy more sneakers than republicans.
The funny thing that you can order it from SEA (mostly Thailand) for roughly ~$30 through https://www.dhgate.com/ DHGate is perfect to buy fake jerseys that are pretty much the same with genuine tags. Either stolen from the factory or they work overhours, I don't know. But the quality and the actual product is almost always the same.
This is also a good way to get in trouble with customs.
Source: Have a friend who bought counterfeit items and got held up at customs for it.
Source: Have a friend who bought counterfeit items and got held up at customs for it.
How?
They get seized at worst, you get a reship. Nobody cares about it as long as you aren't getting 50+ for resale.
They get seized at worst, you get a reship. Nobody cares about it as long as you aren't getting 50+ for resale.
>It is illegal to purchase counterfeit goods. Bringing them into the United States may result in civil or criminal penalties.
https://www.cbp.gov/FakeGoodsRealDangers
https://www.cbp.gov/FakeGoodsRealDangers
Realistically though, CBP isn't going to come after you if you're buying a few hundred bucks of apparel for personal use.
You can find yourself on a CBP list if you import counterfeit goods.
https://www.racked.com/2018/1/8/16849298/amazon-counterfeits...
https://www.racked.com/2018/1/8/16849298/amazon-counterfeits...
So the risk is being unable to purchase totalitarian favors? If you're that worried, have the package addressed to a different nym.
Funny how there's a list for natural persons, but not (large) corporations.
There are well known open air markets in downtown Manhattan where everyone goes for counterfeit goods. If that place stays open, I really doubt getting one jersey with freehongkong written on it is going to set off their alarm bells.
Tell that to amazon
Waterfall(1)
That's a good way to lose your Global Entry membership too.
https://www.racked.com/2018/1/8/16849298/amazon-counterfeits...
>past violation of customs laws or regulations on your record may make you ineligible for Trusted Traveler programs
https://www.racked.com/2018/1/8/16849298/amazon-counterfeits...
>past violation of customs laws or regulations on your record may make you ineligible for Trusted Traveler programs
this is about the NBA kowtowing to the CCP, no one is surprised you can buy fake shirts somewhere
I can definitely concede that the NBA is acting cowardly, but I feel like the amount of hate/attacks NBA is receiving is disproportionate. Essentially all global businesses appease China to varying degrees and NBA is being singled out because of their outspokenness on US-related issues. And denigrating companies because they did not speak about ALL issues would simply result in them avoiding all contentious issues. Furthermore, a lot of this outrage feels extremely disingenious which I feel like further justify my "distaste".
Like I stated in a previous comment - our main focus should be pressuring the government and congress where the real change happen. Especially since China would retaliate against any company talking about their issues. Also, focusing on the gov/congress do not in any way prevent the pressuring of companies to do the right thing.
Like I stated in a previous comment - our main focus should be pressuring the government and congress where the real change happen. Especially since China would retaliate against any company talking about their issues. Also, focusing on the gov/congress do not in any way prevent the pressuring of companies to do the right thing.
> And denigrating companies because they did not speak about ALL issues would simply result in them avoiding all contentious issues.
The NBA has had a voice on the matter, they could have stayed quiet like you mentioned, but they chose to side with cruelty.
When their main star, Lebron, publicly called out the critiques on China for their treatment of Hong Kong “misinformed”, it sought to normalize oppression, condoning dictatorship practices and cruelty.
The NBA has a powerful speech platform that should be used responsibly.
The NBA has had a voice on the matter, they could have stayed quiet like you mentioned, but they chose to side with cruelty.
When their main star, Lebron, publicly called out the critiques on China for their treatment of Hong Kong “misinformed”, it sought to normalize oppression, condoning dictatorship practices and cruelty.
The NBA has a powerful speech platform that should be used responsibly.
How about: Free China of CCP
That’ll take care of all the underlying issues.
That’ll take care of all the underlying issues.
Not necessarily. The question that must be asked is, "Why did China institute such a system of authoritarian rule in the first place, and why does she allow it to persist?" The Chinese have yet to develop the same sort of republican values we have in America, so removing the current government alone won't do much good. This is the same problem as with the Middle East, Africa, etc.
throwawaysea(3)
Who's really in power? They're the ones you can't offend. Or else.
This sounds like a play on the old Voltaire quote, "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."
A common joke response is "wow, we'd better rise up against kids with leukemia."
A common joke response is "wow, we'd better rise up against kids with leukemia."
I'm the sort of person who would tell that kid to clean up their room. Normalcy is underrated.
As for Voltaire, while I'd buy that guy some wine, the lack of meaningful progress on something at least like CFE from RFC 5984 is somewhat of a barrier. My limited understanding is that its still in development rather than anything near production ready.
As for Voltaire, while I'd buy that guy some wine, the lack of meaningful progress on something at least like CFE from RFC 5984 is somewhat of a barrier. My limited understanding is that its still in development rather than anything near production ready.
"The customer is always right".
Can you put “Free Palestine” on them?
The West has been through this version of the fight before. Can’t draw Muhammad cartoons? Can’t say Free Hong Kong?
I don’t want to see our top institutions buckle like this.
This is a real fight, it keeps popping up. These things are worth protecting.
I don’t want to see our top institutions buckle like this.
This is a real fight, it keeps popping up. These things are worth protecting.
You know, people are absolutely free to buy the shirt and stencil on any sentiment or message they feel.
Or is speech only meaningful if you added it to your shopping cart and it went through the pipes of commerce? Kind of exactly what people are upset about in the first place?
Or is speech only meaningful if you added it to your shopping cart and it went through the pipes of commerce? Kind of exactly what people are upset about in the first place?
People are upset because more and more companies are ceding to a government which is actively committing genocide, suppresses ideas and free speech of its own people, all so that these companies can make more money.
How about not buying the shirt then, instead of complaining about the message you're helping to fund while buying it?
I mean, people would prefer to not have to walk away from the things they enjoy.
You're being a little pointedly obtuse here. People want the world to reflect their values. Very few political vegans would prefer to ignore that there are still restaurants serving meat, they'd rather the culture shift away from that sort of practice. Similarly, people would prefer the sport they enjoy watching not support the government policies they don't support.
"Why not just ignore anything you don't like" isn't how the world works.
You're being a little pointedly obtuse here. People want the world to reflect their values. Very few political vegans would prefer to ignore that there are still restaurants serving meat, they'd rather the culture shift away from that sort of practice. Similarly, people would prefer the sport they enjoy watching not support the government policies they don't support.
"Why not just ignore anything you don't like" isn't how the world works.
[deleted]
I wonder about this: while I don't agree with the idea, it seems legally questionable. If, hypothetically, the KKK got such a jersey and pasted racist slogans on it, the NBA could reasonably claim the people doing so were unjustly associating its brand with causes it didn't support. They would be using the NBA brand in a manner in which they had not received license to use it. I think the same thing applies here: while I don't approve of this action by the NBA, they could have grounds for legal action against someone doing this (though I imagine it would make a bad PR situation even worse).
> They would be using the NBA brand in a manner in which they had not received license to use it.
It’s a shirt. You’re not using the brand. The manufacturer of the shirt is. You have no licence. You own property. You can deface it however you see fit.
It’s a shirt. You’re not using the brand. The manufacturer of the shirt is. You have no licence. You own property. You can deface it however you see fit.
This is a couple days old. The NBA has since taken down the ability to customize jerseys at all. Not sure if this is worse.
https://www.voanews.com/east-asia-pacific/voa-news-china/nba...
https://www.voanews.com/east-asia-pacific/voa-news-china/nba...
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alkibiades(2)
I’m continually surprised at how willing the elites, the media, corporate America and our elected politicians are to carry water for China.
Our elected politicians expend endless breath calling “Wuhan virus” racist but don’t even dare utter a word about an active genocide against Uighur minorities? No problem with the president of one of our largest rival countries effectively becoming a dictator for life?
Let’s all keep calling people xenophobic while Xi consolidates power and swallows HK.
Our elected politicians expend endless breath calling “Wuhan virus” racist but don’t even dare utter a word about an active genocide against Uighur minorities? No problem with the president of one of our largest rival countries effectively becoming a dictator for life?
Let’s all keep calling people xenophobic while Xi consolidates power and swallows HK.
Here's another angle. The increasing censorship within China leaves less and less opportunity for the greater Chinese population to learn about the capabilities of other countries. A few examples of excellence that are still available to Chinese citizens are the NBA, Apple products, US education and Tesla cars. Most nations export excellence of some type to China.
Having these examples in their hands or on their screens likely initiates a mild cognitive dissonance: "The CCP news tells me how terrible the USA is, yet, these elements in my life are excellent beyond what is created by my own country." It's reminiscent of Russian defectors who couldn't rationalize the images they were shown of US poverty, illustrated by films from the Great Depression wherein the 1930s streets of New York were clogged with cars. Or, Boris Yeltzen visiting an American grocery store in 1989, and being overwhelmed at the variety of products and full shelves [0].
As the reins of censorship and propaganda tightens in China, there may be less and less of the world to pierce through and belie the narrative they are fed. Perhaps we should not abandon them any sooner than we must.
With that said, if it's a deliberate approach, we need to get the messaging right. The NBA should stick to 'we are ambassadors for the USA to the world' and leave any politics at that.
[0] https://www.chron.com/neighborhood/bayarea/news/article/When...
Having these examples in their hands or on their screens likely initiates a mild cognitive dissonance: "The CCP news tells me how terrible the USA is, yet, these elements in my life are excellent beyond what is created by my own country." It's reminiscent of Russian defectors who couldn't rationalize the images they were shown of US poverty, illustrated by films from the Great Depression wherein the 1930s streets of New York were clogged with cars. Or, Boris Yeltzen visiting an American grocery store in 1989, and being overwhelmed at the variety of products and full shelves [0].
As the reins of censorship and propaganda tightens in China, there may be less and less of the world to pierce through and belie the narrative they are fed. Perhaps we should not abandon them any sooner than we must.
With that said, if it's a deliberate approach, we need to get the messaging right. The NBA should stick to 'we are ambassadors for the USA to the world' and leave any politics at that.
[0] https://www.chron.com/neighborhood/bayarea/news/article/When...
This claim is objectively false since Chinese people become more nationalistic after visiting western countries. The cognitive dissonance isn't that western countries are better than expected, it is that they are worse. Look no further than the political activities by Chinese students in western universities.
The Chinese students with the education and wealth to study abroad are already among the top 5% in China. Their families are wealthy and powerful to start with. It's not shocking that many of them see negatives to living in the west as compared to China (in the west, they are on a more level playing field with the "masses").
Their experience does not translate to the remaining 95% who work manual jobs, with highly filtered information coming in, with no real hope or means of ever traveling abroad.
Their experience does not translate to the remaining 95% who work manual jobs, with highly filtered information coming in, with no real hope or means of ever traveling abroad.
For Urban Population I would argue the percentage is a bit higher. It’s not that uncommon for 3rd tier city children to go abroad nowadays.
If you are talking about the billions of rural area population, it’s a hard problem and I think they wouldn’t have the spare time to learn or think about democracy values until their lives get better. Their dream is still “get out of my village and find a spot in Tier-3/2/1 city”.
Its a bit “何不食肉糜” (let them eat cake) to Chinese people actually
If you are talking about the billions of rural area population, it’s a hard problem and I think they wouldn’t have the spare time to learn or think about democracy values until their lives get better. Their dream is still “get out of my village and find a spot in Tier-3/2/1 city”.
Its a bit “何不食肉糜” (let them eat cake) to Chinese people actually
From my experience there are two tiers of international student. There are the ones who emigrate in late middle school/early high school to get permanent residency before entering university (and thus paying domestic tuition) and those who come over right at the beginning of university. The latter category pay exorbitant tuition and, from what I’ve seen, drive fancy cars and wear luxury designer brands. These kids have more money than they know what to do with. Their parents are likely to be at least somewhat involved in the CCP and so it makes sense that they’d be unimpressed with their western peers.
The US had an intentional policy of opening up China through economic means. Which has not since it's implementation.
While I think your point is mostly valid and benign, Your impression of China seems outdated and tone might seem a bit arrogant to a native Chinese. Chinese people recognize the gap and appreciate the excellence in their daily life. The CCP rarely censored in the way you described(e.g. it never says China’s education/manufacturing is the best, instead they call out the remaining gap constantly).
As a matter of fact, the biggest concern I have is the political climate in the US has done more harm than the CCP can even dream of with any propaganda. Overseas Chineses tell more and more story of how chaotic US is to their family in China and that spreads. Ten years ago it’s a no brainer to send you child to get US education but now many parents are reconsidering.
As a matter of fact, the biggest concern I have is the political climate in the US has done more harm than the CCP can even dream of with any propaganda. Overseas Chineses tell more and more story of how chaotic US is to their family in China and that spreads. Ten years ago it’s a no brainer to send you child to get US education but now many parents are reconsidering.
yes, seconded. China isn't North Korea or the USSR. Don't take for granted that the West is "better", at this point China is looking over and saying "prove it"
Can you blame Chinese citizens for preferring the stability and prosperity of their own regime, when they have the current disarray of American democracy to compare to?
Frankly I would argue that the Chinese have a much better understanding of the US than the other way around. They study English, they are exposed to Western cultural exports (we're in a thread about the NBA, for instance), heck the general populace looked up to the US for a long time (not anymore)
Can you blame Chinese citizens for preferring the stability and prosperity of their own regime, when they have the current disarray of American democracy to compare to?
Frankly I would argue that the Chinese have a much better understanding of the US than the other way around. They study English, they are exposed to Western cultural exports (we're in a thread about the NBA, for instance), heck the general populace looked up to the US for a long time (not anymore)
Probably still looking up in quite a few fields(technology, education), but on society/core value aspect it’s been shaky
you're right. I should have said "less and less so". In any case it's definitely trending down
> preferring the stability and prosperity of their own regime
That's a bit of an unwarranted assumption. Even hinting that you have a different preference or questioning the reports of stability and prosperity (even privately among friends on WeChat, which is monitored and censored) can get you invited for a nice cup of tea with the local police.
That's a bit of an unwarranted assumption. Even hinting that you have a different preference or questioning the reports of stability and prosperity (even privately among friends on WeChat, which is monitored and censored) can get you invited for a nice cup of tea with the local police.
Reports? They literally are experiencing stability and prosperity. People went from rural villages without electricity to towering megacities in a generation. Honestly I find it rather insulting that you'd rather believe they're all hiding their true preferences than try to see their perspective.
The point is that we don't know the degree of stability, prosperity and preference for the CCP because any data that contradicts this narrative is suppressed.
> Can you blame Chinese citizens for preferring the stability and prosperity of their own regime, when they have the current disarray of American democracy to compare to?
Let's ask the Chinese citizens in Hong Kong how they feel about the stability and prosperity of their regime, shall we?
Let's ask the Chinese citizens in Hong Kong how they feel about the stability and prosperity of their regime, shall we?
You say this like it's supposed to be some kind of clever gotcha. Yes, the discontent there is real. But even if 100% of HKers are dissatisfied with the regime (which is not the case), they are a tiny fraction of the total population. Overall, I stand by my statement.
Great idea. Let’s ask the business owners and working class citizens. They don’t want the freedoms “mobs” for sure
and to back you up:
>A strike was intended to open a new arena of resistance, but organizers said only 8,943 union members participated in a city-wide poll, falling short of the 60,000 threshold to go ahead, even as 95% of the votes were in favor. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-protests/hong-ko...
HK protestors have failed to organize any long term strike for a while now. If the majority of HKers strike, that will deal a real blow to the government.
>A strike was intended to open a new arena of resistance, but organizers said only 8,943 union members participated in a city-wide poll, falling short of the 60,000 threshold to go ahead, even as 95% of the votes were in favor. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-protests/hong-ko...
HK protestors have failed to organize any long term strike for a while now. If the majority of HKers strike, that will deal a real blow to the government.
It's unfortunate that your comments are getting downvoted when they are filling in for a perspective that seems to be missing from the conversation. I hope some people can see value in your comments as data points from China, rather than a value judgment.
While there is some truth in what you say, many overseas Chinese get their news from Chinese sources even if they have access to better options. It creates a vicious cycle of cognitive dissonance.
Well I haven’t read Chinese news sources for many years. Speak of cognitive dissonance, Fox News and sometimes CNN are among the worst few media I’ve ever seen
Teling the truth and getting downvoted. I'm Chinese too. Wanna connect (email in my profile)?
Too much risks in US to do so right now in this climate. I just want to pay my taxes and remain a good keyboard man with slightly different opinions.
See Chineses self censored.
See Chineses self censored.
whenever I see misinformation my blood boils. I thought moving out of China would help my anger management. But alas here we are. I have been wondering instead of wasting time telling HN or any community what China is like, maybe there's something I can do to help China become a better place where I wanna live in future, no matter how small I can contribute. Many westerners (government bodies excluded) are good intended, but the solution they got mostly will only get things worse.
It’s close to impossible to stop misinformation given most westerners Have a much higher trust level of their media E.g Fox News reporting hospitals are getting paid to attribute deaths to Covid-19 regardless of the cause. I’m sure many on the right-wing actually believes it. And also this forum is of western mainstream view and Values so bias is expected. dang teaches a good lesson in how to live here so nowadays I rarely get triggered
>The increasing censorship within China leaves less and less opportunity for the greater Chinese population to learn about the capabilities of other countries.
Most of my friends back in China, especially devs, use VPN daily. Many Chinese learn English via English media or TV shows. check this out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-s...
>The CCP news tells me how terrible the USA is, yet, these elements in my life are excellent beyond what is created by my own country. just not true. I was really shocked about the homeless situation in NA which was never really reported back in China.
and also from u/bpodgursky >the Chinese students with the education and wealth to study abroad are already among the top 5% in China. Not the case for most graduate students. Especially the ones received scholarships (such as me).
Please check your sources guys. Try learn a bit Mandarin if you could or at least talk to Chinese ppl living around you. China is sick yes. But imagine diagnosing the illness of a patient without looking or talking to them but only via a malicious translator.
>The CCP news tells me how terrible the USA is, yet, these elements in my life are excellent beyond what is created by my own country. just not true. I was really shocked about the homeless situation in NA which was never really reported back in China.
and also from u/bpodgursky >the Chinese students with the education and wealth to study abroad are already among the top 5% in China. Not the case for most graduate students. Especially the ones received scholarships (such as me).
Please check your sources guys. Try learn a bit Mandarin if you could or at least talk to Chinese ppl living around you. China is sick yes. But imagine diagnosing the illness of a patient without looking or talking to them but only via a malicious translator.
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> Most of my friends back in China, especially devs, use VPN daily
This is such a tired argument. You've got a tiny percent of the population with the ability to proxy out of China. You cannot easily share the information you find with non-VPN friends. Not even with VPN-enabled friends. Sharing any politically sensitive info under your identity is a big no-no.
I once did an experiment on Weibo and posted screenshots of an article about Xinjiang concentration camps. The original English version stayed up for quite a while. Then posted a google translated Chinese version and it was quickly taken down. After posting it again my account was banned.
That individuals can obtain certain information isn't a big threat to the government if you cannot effectively disseminate it in the general population and organize around it.
This is such a tired argument. You've got a tiny percent of the population with the ability to proxy out of China. You cannot easily share the information you find with non-VPN friends. Not even with VPN-enabled friends. Sharing any politically sensitive info under your identity is a big no-no.
I once did an experiment on Weibo and posted screenshots of an article about Xinjiang concentration camps. The original English version stayed up for quite a while. Then posted a google translated Chinese version and it was quickly taken down. After posting it again my account was banned.
That individuals can obtain certain information isn't a big threat to the government if you cannot effectively disseminate it in the general population and organize around it.
>You've got a tiny percent of the population with the ability to proxy out of China.
do you have data to back your claim up?
>You cannot easily share the information you find with non-VPN friends.
We talk in person, during lunch or on dinner tables, in office. When we talk politics online we invent new words to avoid auto detection. The recent hot topic is this: https://www.reddit.com/r/China_irl/comments/hp8z29/%E7%8E%8B...
basically some guy got detained because he whistleblowed something food safety related. We talk politics, in ways you normally wont imagine. But not the politics you expect.
>Xinjiang concentration camps. That's an interesting topic because most Chinese dont care when you shove it into their throats in one way or another. If you used Weibo, I wonder do you have Chinese friends? Have you asked their opinion about those camps?
do you have data to back your claim up?
>You cannot easily share the information you find with non-VPN friends.
We talk in person, during lunch or on dinner tables, in office. When we talk politics online we invent new words to avoid auto detection. The recent hot topic is this: https://www.reddit.com/r/China_irl/comments/hp8z29/%E7%8E%8B...
basically some guy got detained because he whistleblowed something food safety related. We talk politics, in ways you normally wont imagine. But not the politics you expect.
>Xinjiang concentration camps. That's an interesting topic because most Chinese dont care when you shove it into their throats in one way or another. If you used Weibo, I wonder do you have Chinese friends? Have you asked their opinion about those camps?
According to this ZDNet article [0] 14% of Chinese internet users use a VPN daily. If you do the math that's roughly 7% of the Chinese population.
> We talk in person, during lunch or on dinner tables, in office. When we talk politics online we invent new words to avoid auto detection. The recent hot topic is this: ... basically some guy got detained because he whistleblowed something food safety related. We talk politics, in ways you normally wont imagine. But not the politics you expect.
Right, so even to discuss local drama that doesn't even involve big politics you still have to use coded language and can get detained for it. That's not exactly an environment that fosters free spread of information.
> That's an interesting topic because most Chinese dont care
And that's the sad part. Chinese citizens are being detained often for years without any due process and people don't care. That's exactly what decades of government propaganda do to people. Not even going to mention the organ harvesting of Falun Gong practitioners which gets somewhat censored even in the Western media too. Most people in China (and the West) are simply unaware of it[1].
[0] https://www.zdnet.com/article/vpns-can-still-be-used-in-chin...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go...
> We talk in person, during lunch or on dinner tables, in office. When we talk politics online we invent new words to avoid auto detection. The recent hot topic is this: ... basically some guy got detained because he whistleblowed something food safety related. We talk politics, in ways you normally wont imagine. But not the politics you expect.
Right, so even to discuss local drama that doesn't even involve big politics you still have to use coded language and can get detained for it. That's not exactly an environment that fosters free spread of information.
> That's an interesting topic because most Chinese dont care
And that's the sad part. Chinese citizens are being detained often for years without any due process and people don't care. That's exactly what decades of government propaganda do to people. Not even going to mention the organ harvesting of Falun Gong practitioners which gets somewhat censored even in the Western media too. Most people in China (and the West) are simply unaware of it[1].
[0] https://www.zdnet.com/article/vpns-can-still-be-used-in-chin...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go...
Please dont break my sentence half way. Western media has been doing that and they wonder why the Chinese ppl are not receptive of their messages or ideas. I feel it's too impolite so I will not follow up on the rest. Sorry.
I don't think any re-wording of your statement was intended by breaking up your sentence, it is pretty common to abbreviate when quoting, even mid-sentence. At least I hope it was not intended... I can see that the quoted part makes it into a different statement.
Personally I appreciate your insight on this topic, I feel it is difficult to have a good discussion on these sorts of topics with all the misinformation going around.
Personally I appreciate your insight on this topic, I feel it is difficult to have a good discussion on these sorts of topics with all the misinformation going around.
Thanks. I'll try give more info on the parent comment then. First 7% of the Chinese population is like 100 million people... Considering most of them cluster in tier 1 cities (beijing, shanghai, shenzhen)[1], I'd say there's density for certain things to happen if they want.
and I wont call food safety issues local drama. Now that people noticed the air quality is improving[2], food safety is probably the no.1 issue Chinese people care. Especially milk products for babies. Many chinese emigrated for food safety as one of the important reason and most chinese buy foreign milk for their babies. Shoot me email if you'd like to talk more :)
1. China's wealth distribution is really not great. We got tier1 cities like developped countries. then there's tier2, tier3, then east rural areas, and west rural areas.
2. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-pollutuion-beijing/...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/beijing-ai...
and I wont call food safety issues local drama. Now that people noticed the air quality is improving[2], food safety is probably the no.1 issue Chinese people care. Especially milk products for babies. Many chinese emigrated for food safety as one of the important reason and most chinese buy foreign milk for their babies. Shoot me email if you'd like to talk more :)
1. China's wealth distribution is really not great. We got tier1 cities like developped countries. then there's tier2, tier3, then east rural areas, and west rural areas.
2. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-pollutuion-beijing/...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/beijing-ai...
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Your comment is about 15 years out of date. There isn’t much that is “excellent beyond what is available” in China anymore. This type of thinking is why western foreign policy continues to get China totally wrong. Chinese people who study abroad are more often confused by the things missing in the west than they are liberated in the way you describe, in my experience.
What is missing in the west?
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Fear of being taken to a dark hole somewhere for making fun of the ruling junta, especially the top boss AKA the President/Chairman.
/s
Pretty sure that fear is very much alive in Portland right now
Sure, let’s point to a single, or two, case in one city in the US, in which case the DHS is being sued last I checked, to contrast a ground up system in the whole of China.
Just today, or yesterday, a respected prof got fired from Tsinghua for being critical of CCP and Xi in particular.
Just today, or yesterday, a respected prof got fired from Tsinghua for being critical of CCP and Xi in particular.
Pretty sure that's an outrageous exercise in false equivalence. What's happening in Portland isn't right, but it is an aberration, and it will be stopped. Nobody has "disappeared."
What is the mechanism for redressing grievances like this in China, exactly?
What is the mechanism for redressing grievances like this in China, exactly?
>Chinese people who study abroad are more often confused by the things missing in the west than they are liberated in the way you describe, in my experience.
As someone who has never been to China could you list some things the West is missing?
As someone who has never been to China could you list some things the West is missing?
Public transportation, affordable healthcare, & weechat are all things that are significantly better in China.
— An American that spent a few weeks in China.
— An American that spent a few weeks in China.
I doubt you'd want to trade your healthcare for what is available to the average Chinese person (as opposed to wealthy urban elites and expats). The public transportation really is extraordinary though.
The healthcare thing doesn't jive with what I've heard from my native Chinese friends; I've heard if you have the right connections (and by association, wealth) you can get exactly what you need, but without that you can't get anything.
I can’t speak to healthcare generally but one of my college roommates was from China and she just could not wrap her head around the politicization of birth control in the US. I remember her asking us if Americans thought it was dangerous or addictive because she couldn’t understand why it was so controversial that the affordable care act required birth control to be covered.
A sibling comment has already mentioned the one-child issue, but I wanted to say... Chinese culture is so deeply different from American culture about all sorts of things about reproduction and fertility.
Chinese people's attitudes toward the one-child policy and also sex-selective abortion are complicated and varied, but they don't seem very similar to Americans' attitudes at all!
In the U.S. it's common for people's religions to completely formally proscribe some forms of birth control and/or abortion. This has led to a big political debate about what the scope of their legal rights to avoid subsidizing these things for other people should be. It's not surprising that that debate should exist, but also not surprising that it would be uncommon in China where (1) the most practiced religions largely don't have these teachings and (2) people don't have a common expectation that the state will give their religious practices and beliefs a considerable amount of deference.
Chinese people's attitudes toward the one-child policy and also sex-selective abortion are complicated and varied, but they don't seem very similar to Americans' attitudes at all!
In the U.S. it's common for people's religions to completely formally proscribe some forms of birth control and/or abortion. This has led to a big political debate about what the scope of their legal rights to avoid subsidizing these things for other people should be. It's not surprising that that debate should exist, but also not surprising that it would be uncommon in China where (1) the most practiced religions largely don't have these teachings and (2) people don't have a common expectation that the state will give their religious practices and beliefs a considerable amount of deference.
I want to add:
I think a median American attitude is that nobody else should pressure you to have more or fewer children than you want to; if your religion encourages you to have children, other people are also largely supposed to respect that, and in modern times, if you just don't want children, other people are also largely supposed to respect that. (In blue tribe environments having many children is suspicious and in red tribe environments having no children is suspicious, but in both cases people are increasingly effective at pushing back socially against other people's scrutiny about this, and even at pushing back against their own families' judgments or preferences.) (These considerations don't necessarily apply the same way outside of opposite-sex monogamous married couples.)
I don't think these norms are common in the same way in China or in Chinese cultures elsewhere. In particular, I think even if Chinese people don't all think their parents, or governments, should get to decide how many children they have, it doesn't seem like many will reach U.S. levels of offense that prospective childbearing couples' parents, or governments, have an expressed preference and actively try to influence this.
I think a median American attitude is that nobody else should pressure you to have more or fewer children than you want to; if your religion encourages you to have children, other people are also largely supposed to respect that, and in modern times, if you just don't want children, other people are also largely supposed to respect that. (In blue tribe environments having many children is suspicious and in red tribe environments having no children is suspicious, but in both cases people are increasingly effective at pushing back socially against other people's scrutiny about this, and even at pushing back against their own families' judgments or preferences.) (These considerations don't necessarily apply the same way outside of opposite-sex monogamous married couples.)
I don't think these norms are common in the same way in China or in Chinese cultures elsewhere. In particular, I think even if Chinese people don't all think their parents, or governments, should get to decide how many children they have, it doesn't seem like many will reach U.S. levels of offense that prospective childbearing couples' parents, or governments, have an expressed preference and actively try to influence this.
The PRC perspective on birth control, specifically, is unique, since the CCP forced birth control and abortion on its population for decades as part of the "one child" policy.[0]
[0]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-child_policy
[0]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-child_policy
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On the contrary, I believe most people will be better off with the Chinese healthcare system than the U.S. one, because nobody go bankrupt from going to the doctor. Office visit cost at most $20 - that's without insurance. Every thing has a fixed price, so you will never get a surprise bill afterwards. If you insist on visiting the best doctor in the field, wait time can be long; but otherwise you can walk into the hospital and be seen pretty quickly. Meanwhile, in the U.S., I have good health insurance through my employer, yet I am still terrified of going to the doctors, especially, god forbid, the ER.
As for quality of care, obviously the facilities in the U.S. are nicer - they better be, you are paying 10x - 100x for that! For the treatment, most friends of mine from China complain the doctors in the U.S. don't do anything; they just give you some advil and send you home. However, antibiotics are probably prescribed too liberally in China, and IV injections used too much.
Of course there are some drawbacks too. First, the flip side of "no surprise bill" is everything is due upfront, so it's not unheard of that critical treatment is delayed because the patient is trying to find money. Second, since healthcare is so cheap, people usually don't carry health insurance other than the government provided one, which has a maximum payout amount per year. As a result, if you get rare / serious condition you can still get ruined financially. Nowadays more and more people begin to purchase commercial health insurance - which are still an order of magnitude cheaper than the U.S. ones.
As for quality of care, obviously the facilities in the U.S. are nicer - they better be, you are paying 10x - 100x for that! For the treatment, most friends of mine from China complain the doctors in the U.S. don't do anything; they just give you some advil and send you home. However, antibiotics are probably prescribed too liberally in China, and IV injections used too much.
Of course there are some drawbacks too. First, the flip side of "no surprise bill" is everything is due upfront, so it's not unheard of that critical treatment is delayed because the patient is trying to find money. Second, since healthcare is so cheap, people usually don't carry health insurance other than the government provided one, which has a maximum payout amount per year. As a result, if you get rare / serious condition you can still get ruined financially. Nowadays more and more people begin to purchase commercial health insurance - which are still an order of magnitude cheaper than the U.S. ones.
Nobody will go bankrupt from going to the doctor, but no doctor will see you without cash-up-front. As a person coming from a western country with universal healthcare, it was very confronting navigating the Chinese hospital system. Every time we needed something we were first directed to an administrator who would take payment. eg, payment for initial consult, then payment for ultrasound, then payment for pharmacy services, etc.
Please don't take this the wrong way, but I felt kind of misled by your post by the time I finished reading it.
US healthcare is notorious for its problems so I was ready to believe your initial statement. But actually you say:
1. "Nobody goes bankrupt from going to the doctor", but "if you get rare / serious condition you can still get ruined financially". Those two statements are direct contradictions of each other.
2. "you can walk into the hospital and be seen pretty quickly" but also ... "it's not unheard of that critical treatment is delayed because the patient is trying to find money". Again, being seen pretty quickly and not being seen because you're trying to find money are in direct conflict.
Nowadays more and more people begin to purchase commercial health insurance - which are still an order of magnitude cheaper than the U.S. ones
Everything in China is cheaper than in the US. It's still a poor country.
Honestly both systems sound just as bad as each other, or rather, the Chinese system sounds far worse. I'd rather be alive and bankrupt, rather than refused treatment entirely, because I didn't have the cash at the exact moment I fell ill or there was some SNAFU with payment systems.
If more and more people choose to buy health insurance, that sounds like China is well on the way to a US style model as it develops.
US healthcare is notorious for its problems so I was ready to believe your initial statement. But actually you say:
1. "Nobody goes bankrupt from going to the doctor", but "if you get rare / serious condition you can still get ruined financially". Those two statements are direct contradictions of each other.
2. "you can walk into the hospital and be seen pretty quickly" but also ... "it's not unheard of that critical treatment is delayed because the patient is trying to find money". Again, being seen pretty quickly and not being seen because you're trying to find money are in direct conflict.
Nowadays more and more people begin to purchase commercial health insurance - which are still an order of magnitude cheaper than the U.S. ones
Everything in China is cheaper than in the US. It's still a poor country.
Honestly both systems sound just as bad as each other, or rather, the Chinese system sounds far worse. I'd rather be alive and bankrupt, rather than refused treatment entirely, because I didn't have the cash at the exact moment I fell ill or there was some SNAFU with payment systems.
If more and more people choose to buy health insurance, that sounds like China is well on the way to a US style model as it develops.
> weechat
The sweet pleasure of being spied upon by the CCP ?
The sweet pleasure of being spied upon by the CCP ?
How is that different from using a service in the states where the NSA spies on everything?
A key difference is that PRISM was a scandal, a massive stain on the reputation of the NSA, and behavior that the majority of Americans condemned and will roundly condemn again if exposed. Can the same be said about China on such state surveillance behavior?
----
On an aside, but related to the broader conversation, the YouTube channel AsianBoss regularly visits China and conducts very revealing interviews with Chinese people on similar topics to those discussed in this thread: https://youtu.be/sTzgE1nvxZs
----
On an aside, but related to the broader conversation, the YouTube channel AsianBoss regularly visits China and conducts very revealing interviews with Chinese people on similar topics to those discussed in this thread: https://youtu.be/sTzgE1nvxZs
Wait, you think prism was discontinued?
In China if you're discovered to have the wrong religion they'll put you in a concentration camp where they may or may not murder you and sell your parts. Don't worry about your family, they'll assign a rapist to your wife who will sleep in bed with her and reeducate your family.
There's literally a WWII scale Holocaust going on in China right now. You have a lot of nerve asking "what's the difference?"
There's literally a WWII scale Holocaust going on in China right now. You have a lot of nerve asking "what's the difference?"
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Parent comment said 'the West', not America.
Public transportation and affordable healthcare are the norm in most highly developed Western democracies such as the UK, France, Sweden, etc.
Public transportation and affordable healthcare are the norm in most highly developed Western democracies such as the UK, France, Sweden, etc.
This is true, although in China's case in addition to being high quality it's also absurdly cheap.
Let's not forget china has 1.4 billion people and a median income less than Mexico. As a westerner visiting China, one tends to stick to the places most similar and accessible to people from the west.
Transportation, not healthcare. High speed rail is ridiculously good, it connects just about every major Chinese city, it’s affordable, very comfortable and fast. I would consider healthcare an exception, it may be affordable but outside of a few expensive clinics in Beijing and Shanghai it’s really bad. Mobile payments are way ahead of other places (you can pay any random person you meet instantly with your phone, and that’s been the case for at least 5 years). Any kind of logistics/delivery (food, online shopping, post etc) is very fast and cheap and this has a lot of flow-on effects in terms of convenience and lifestyle.
Basic research in (for example) AI is probably on par with the west, I think it’s fair to say the engineering/applied side is ahead. This is helped by essentially zero concern for privacy = more data. WeChat translate CN-EN is miles ahead of Google. Any kind of large scale tech that has anything to do with surveillance, things like CV, deep-packet inspection, would be unmatched I’d say.
It’s definitely not free of racism.
Basic research in (for example) AI is probably on par with the west, I think it’s fair to say the engineering/applied side is ahead. This is helped by essentially zero concern for privacy = more data. WeChat translate CN-EN is miles ahead of Google. Any kind of large scale tech that has anything to do with surveillance, things like CV, deep-packet inspection, would be unmatched I’d say.
It’s definitely not free of racism.
> WeChat translate CN-EN is miles ahead of Google.
That's interesting!
At the same time, deepl.com is also miles ahead of Google, so I'm not all that impressed by Google Translate anymore. (Deepl itself is impressive is heck!)
That's interesting!
At the same time, deepl.com is also miles ahead of Google, so I'm not all that impressed by Google Translate anymore. (Deepl itself is impressive is heck!)
It may be a case of Google lagging behind others yeah, I’m not overly familiar with translators other than as a casual user. WeChat is very “smoothed” in that it gives you something that makes grammatical sense and sounds native, in preference to being a direct translation. Which usually works really well but occasionally gives hilarious results. It also seems to take the context of the conversation into account rather than just the message you’re translating.
Are you sure about that? I think DeepL was ahead for a brief time after it was released, but Google Translate has caught up.
For me it's absolutely night and day, the translations produced by Deepl feel like they could have been written by a real person. That real person wouldn't be a particularly good writer, but, still, it's highly readable.
I could see myself reading a whole book through Deepl if I had a reason.
I could see myself reading a whole book through Deepl if I had a reason.
Yeah, I take that back. DeepL is better (again), although it is highly dependent on which languages you translate and which context.
Quite impressive, especially that DeepL (and every other machine translation application) makes use of research done at Google.
Quite impressive, especially that DeepL (and every other machine translation application) makes use of research done at Google.
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American here. I spent a couple of months in China and have Chinese friends, so here are a few things off the top of my head (take with a grain of salt and consider talking with Chinese people for a more authentic perspective):
- Reliable high-speed railway.
- Night markets -- lots of people socializing in the street into the early hours of the morning, enjoying street food, beer, etc.
- A sense of shared experience that's difficult to find in hyper-individualistic societies.
The Chinese perspective, AFAICT, is that individual liberties are worth trading for prosperity and so-called "economic" liberties. I'm told that this is something that's difficult to understand unless you've experienced the sort of progress that China has observed firsthand.
- Reliable high-speed railway.
- Night markets -- lots of people socializing in the street into the early hours of the morning, enjoying street food, beer, etc.
- A sense of shared experience that's difficult to find in hyper-individualistic societies.
The Chinese perspective, AFAICT, is that individual liberties are worth trading for prosperity and so-called "economic" liberties. I'm told that this is something that's difficult to understand unless you've experienced the sort of progress that China has observed firsthand.
There's nothing I am more jealous of than the night markets you see around the world. I'm sure there are downsides to them, and what I see on various travel shows are mainly the upside, but man the idea of being able to step out at 1 or 2 in the morning and get a beer and some tasty food seems pretty awesome.
They are a bit unregulated, and people warned me not to eat there too often. For example, I was told that people have died of rat poison after eating rat meat (for rats apparently captured from the street). Another issue is that the vendors would sometimes reuse their cooking oil (so-called "gutter oil"). That said, I got the impression that it was OK to indulge on the occasion, and it is true that the atmosphere is really great.
Ironically, these night markets are disappearing a bit as prosperity goes up. For example, in Shenzhen, a lot more roads were built to accommodate the huge increase in the number of automobiles, and it seems that many of these markets have succumbed to the concrete jungle.
Ironically, these night markets are disappearing a bit as prosperity goes up. For example, in Shenzhen, a lot more roads were built to accommodate the huge increase in the number of automobiles, and it seems that many of these markets have succumbed to the concrete jungle.
> "economic" liberties
I think that's a false dilemma. The Nordic states have roughly the same personal liberties as the US, but the welfare system means people are much more financially secure.
I think that's a false dilemma. The Nordic states have roughly the same personal liberties as the US, but the welfare system means people are much more financially secure.
I probably should have phrased it differently. I think the attitude in China is that, if somehow forced to choose between individual liberties and economic prosperity, many will choose the latter -- because they see it as enabling the former more capably than any sort of constitutional rights.
Btw I'm intentionally trying to stay take a neutral stance on this topic when discussing my understanding of attitudes in China. In fact my personal viewpoint is that economic prosperity without a strong and healthy respect for human rights will have bounded lifetime, but that's a different discussion. Regardless I think it's important to understand all the viewpoints.
Btw I'm intentionally trying to stay take a neutral stance on this topic when discussing my understanding of attitudes in China. In fact my personal viewpoint is that economic prosperity without a strong and healthy respect for human rights will have bounded lifetime, but that's a different discussion. Regardless I think it's important to understand all the viewpoints.
> As someone who has never been to China could you list some things the West is missing?
It's been mentioned elsewhere in this thread, but it's worth reiterating - safety.
China is one of the safest places in the world. I literally never had a single concern for the physical well-being of my mother, my wife, anyone - no matter what part of the city they were in, or what time of the day.
Worth mentioning that I've found Singapore to be the same.
Contrast that with life in Australia (Melbourne), where I was constantly on edge even in the early evening, I'd worry every time my wife was out late, not to mention the instances where I was physically threatened or assaulted.
It's been mentioned elsewhere in this thread, but it's worth reiterating - safety.
China is one of the safest places in the world. I literally never had a single concern for the physical well-being of my mother, my wife, anyone - no matter what part of the city they were in, or what time of the day.
Worth mentioning that I've found Singapore to be the same.
Contrast that with life in Australia (Melbourne), where I was constantly on edge even in the early evening, I'd worry every time my wife was out late, not to mention the instances where I was physically threatened or assaulted.
I live in Melbourne. Can I ask what parts of life here felt unsafe? I live out the suburbs in a moderately expensive area and not much happens here at night. Is it "youth gangs" in the city that caused the issue?
Mainly the CBD. The area around Elizabeth St/Flinders St is particularly rife (unsurprising that's where I had to defend myself from assault on a Tuesday evening at 8pm). Not youth gangs, but homeless and drug addicts. Constant incidents in Melbourne Central, too.
Not just the CBD though - almost every time I caught the 57 tram, there was some kind of screaming match or altercation (none involving me, thankfully). Visiting St Albans at night, I was treated to roving groups of young men smashing windows and helping themselves to whatever they felt like. Even the train back was really sketchy too.
That's without mentioning the Eurydice Dixon and Aiia Maasarwe cases, which were really unsettling.
I never worried about any of this stuff in China. There were literally zero occasions where I felt physically unsafe. Whereas Melbourne? Every time I was in the CBD after dark, I felt I needed to be on guard - and I'm a physically capable male.
Not just the CBD though - almost every time I caught the 57 tram, there was some kind of screaming match or altercation (none involving me, thankfully). Visiting St Albans at night, I was treated to roving groups of young men smashing windows and helping themselves to whatever they felt like. Even the train back was really sketchy too.
That's without mentioning the Eurydice Dixon and Aiia Maasarwe cases, which were really unsettling.
I never worried about any of this stuff in China. There were literally zero occasions where I felt physically unsafe. Whereas Melbourne? Every time I was in the CBD after dark, I felt I needed to be on guard - and I'm a physically capable male.
I'm sorry you had to experience that. I hope you did get to experience some of the beauty of our country too. People are quick to bash China but there are some things they are doing well. I feel that Asian exchange students need to be warned about the danger of night time in Western cities.
I know the relations are strained between our countries but I hope they improve. Our government has "do not travel" recommendations in place for China due to the current political issues between our nations but I would love to visit one day.
I know the relations are strained between our countries but I hope they improve. Our government has "do not travel" recommendations in place for China due to the current political issues between our nations but I would love to visit one day.
> It's been mentioned elsewhere in this thread, but it's worth reiterating - safety.
Maybe if you're Chinese. Right after college, a friend of mine (white American) worked in a job where he spent time at a factory in China, until he got stabbed in the lunch room by some older worker. He's fine, and while there is may be a degree of safe, it's definitely a question of safe for whom.
Maybe if you're Chinese. Right after college, a friend of mine (white American) worked in a job where he spent time at a factory in China, until he got stabbed in the lunch room by some older worker. He's fine, and while there is may be a degree of safe, it's definitely a question of safe for whom.
I won't pretend that violent crime doesn't exist, I've certainly witnessed it first hand.
I'm mainly talking random street violence, which is far, far rarer than somewhere like Australia. I'm fairly sure that applies to most of "the West", too.
I'm mainly talking random street violence, which is far, far rarer than somewhere like Australia. I'm fairly sure that applies to most of "the West", too.
I'm curious how you know this. Neither Chinese statistics nor news are reliable at all, and especially won't be reliable about basic quality of life issues like this where the government is highly incentivised to make their society seem really safe and controlled.
So that leaves anecdotes and personal experience. How many direct experiences of violent crime in both places have you had, and how do you know this generalises?
So that leaves anecdotes and personal experience. How many direct experiences of violent crime in both places have you had, and how do you know this generalises?
Examples?
From my direct experience from a 3 weeks journey 5 years ago:
A super app like WeChat. I'm happy we don't have one because super app == super control. (BTW WhatsApp was still legal back then.)
A ban on gas powered small motorcycles. All of them were electric, some with a retrofitted electric engine, some natively electric. I wish we did the same.
I can't think about other things that were or could look better. In most cases it was the same stuff / processes with a Chinese twist.
From my direct experience from a 3 weeks journey 5 years ago:
A super app like WeChat. I'm happy we don't have one because super app == super control. (BTW WhatsApp was still legal back then.)
A ban on gas powered small motorcycles. All of them were electric, some with a retrofitted electric engine, some natively electric. I wish we did the same.
I can't think about other things that were or could look better. In most cases it was the same stuff / processes with a Chinese twist.
Half joke/half serious:
1. Food(any objection?)
2. Public transportation: high speed rail road
3. Huge and fancy malls: USA is behind believe it or not
4. E-payment & WeChat: Chinese people think differently.
5. Food delivery and all kinds of half-day delivery
6. Free of Racism: invisible ceiling
7. Cultural recreational activities that you don’t understand
8. Crowded.
1. Food(any objection?)
2. Public transportation: high speed rail road
3. Huge and fancy malls: USA is behind believe it or not
4. E-payment & WeChat: Chinese people think differently.
5. Food delivery and all kinds of half-day delivery
6. Free of Racism: invisible ceiling
7. Cultural recreational activities that you don’t understand
8. Crowded.
_oqcu(1)
China's great if you have a decent amount of money -- labor's cheap, so all sorts of stuff (food prep, transportation, delivery services) that's heavy on labor is dirt cheap in China even if it's unaffordable in the West.
But racism... speaking as a rich white guy who was treated as nicely as you'd generally expect, even I could tell it wouldn't be fun to be an ethnic minority there. Chinese ethnic minorities visiting Beijing are themselves something of a tourist attraction; tour guides leading Westerners around point and stare and talk about those minorities sort of the way you'd point and stare and talk about a wild animal you found roaming the streets. Thing is, 95+ percent of China is a single (self-identified) ethnic group so there are just fewer encounters with minorities.
But racism... speaking as a rich white guy who was treated as nicely as you'd generally expect, even I could tell it wouldn't be fun to be an ethnic minority there. Chinese ethnic minorities visiting Beijing are themselves something of a tourist attraction; tour guides leading Westerners around point and stare and talk about those minorities sort of the way you'd point and stare and talk about a wild animal you found roaming the streets. Thing is, 95+ percent of China is a single (self-identified) ethnic group so there are just fewer encounters with minorities.
>China's great if you have a decent amount of money
Besides Scandinavian countries where the social security net is amazing comparably, isn't that the same in most of the world? I'm not sure being poor in China is worse than elsewhere?
Besides Scandinavian countries where the social security net is amazing comparably, isn't that the same in most of the world? I'm not sure being poor in China is worse than elsewhere?
In most of the developed world, even poor people's labor is expensive enough that it's rarely affordable to just pay someone else to do something for you exclusively (e.g., private chef, private driver). In China, to say nothing of India, that's another story. There, you have professional class types making Western salaries but also a billion-odd people living on dollars a day which allows an aristocratic lifestyle that would be unimaginable in the developed world.
> Chinese ethnic minorities visiting Beijing are themselves something of a tourist attraction; tour guides leading Westerners around point and stare and talk about those minorities sort of the way you'd point and stare and talk about a wild animal you found roaming the streets.
On a related note, in the 2008 Olympics in Beijing, China saw fit to have the flag be brought in by 56 children wearing the traditional costumes of the 56 officially-recognized ethnic groups in China. They were all Han.
On a related note, in the 2008 Olympics in Beijing, China saw fit to have the flag be brought in by 56 children wearing the traditional costumes of the 56 officially-recognized ethnic groups in China. They were all Han.
>They were all Han.
dumb question: is it possible to tell?
dumb question: is it possible to tell?
Err it’s easy to tell a Han from Uyghur, Chinese Kazakhs and many others closer to Russian and Middle-East origins.
[deleted]
Yes. Here's a picture of the what the Uighurs look like. The ones currently thrown in concentration camps and into forced labour:
https://muslimmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/uyghur.jpg
With Tibetans it's harder to tell for western eyes, but they look a bit more like native Americans do/did:
http://162757811.blogspot.com/2015/06/stop-genocide-tibetan-...
https://muslimmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/uyghur.jpg
With Tibetans it's harder to tell for western eyes, but they look a bit more like native Americans do/did:
http://162757811.blogspot.com/2015/06/stop-genocide-tibetan-...
But you were an ethnic minority too when you were in China right?
I never understood this line of thinking though - the way you describe it sounds like it was out of pure curiosity rather than racism. It's interesting seeing the difference of how people define racism based on who they are and where they grew up.
For example - racism in Australia can be seen through racial slurs and physical violence from the moment they start interacting with others (preschool) up to adulthood. Or it can come in many subvert forms in the professional workspace. Contrast this to where I hear of racial minorities coming into Asia who for the most part get treated at best above everyone and at worst out of curiosity (e.g. staring)
I never understood this line of thinking though - the way you describe it sounds like it was out of pure curiosity rather than racism. It's interesting seeing the difference of how people define racism based on who they are and where they grew up.
For example - racism in Australia can be seen through racial slurs and physical violence from the moment they start interacting with others (preschool) up to adulthood. Or it can come in many subvert forms in the professional workspace. Contrast this to where I hear of racial minorities coming into Asia who for the most part get treated at best above everyone and at worst out of curiosity (e.g. staring)
I wasn't a local ethnic minority, which makes all the difference.
And "curiosity" doesn't quite explain it. It's curiosity plus lack of respect. Local political bosses are undoubtedly subjects of similar curiosity, but everyone respects (and/or fears) them enough to be courteous.
And "curiosity" doesn't quite explain it. It's curiosity plus lack of respect. Local political bosses are undoubtedly subjects of similar curiosity, but everyone respects (and/or fears) them enough to be courteous.
As a (former?) frequent traveller, I can tell you this is first time I've ever heard China described as "free of racism."
We were talking about what Chinese emigrants can get inside China, so they probably mean that Chinese nationals (usually) wouldn't be subject to racism themselves.
>6. Free of Racism: invisible ceiling
maybe if you're chinese.
maybe if you're chinese.
[deleted]
> 2. Public transportation: high speed rail road
Heh, it is easy to do high speed rail roads if you don't value human life. [0]
[0]: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/25/chinese-rail-c...
Heh, it is easy to do high speed rail roads if you don't value human life. [0]
[0]: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/25/chinese-rail-c...
To be fair, in US trains fail similarly at relatively very low speeds https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Washington_train_derailme...
> Food(any objection?)
I've only been to China once (Guanzhou), but it was very hard to find vegetarian food. Everything everywhere seems to have duck or pork in it. The variety is definitely lacking compared to Europe or North America.
I've only been to China once (Guanzhou), but it was very hard to find vegetarian food. Everything everywhere seems to have duck or pork in it. The variety is definitely lacking compared to Europe or North America.
> A ban on gas powered small motorcycles. All of them were electric, some with a retrofitted electric engine, some natively electric. I wish we did the same.
That doesn't take a totalitarian oppressive regime like the one forced into China by China's communist party. In some European cities old cars or diesel-powered cars are banned from city centers, and certain types of bikes are only allowed on some zones.
That doesn't take a totalitarian oppressive regime like the one forced into China by China's communist party. In some European cities old cars or diesel-powered cars are banned from city centers, and certain types of bikes are only allowed on some zones.
What about clean drinking water and clean air? I certainly missed that in China.
The air quality has actually improved a lot in recent years, and I’d expect that trend to continue. The govt is putting a lot of emphasis on it recently. But yeah, it’s still pretty bad.
> There isn’t much that is “excellent beyond what is available” in China anymore.
Democracy and freedom of thought.
Despite your experience of Foreign Chinese Students being confused rather than liberated by the West...in my experience I’ve never met a Foreign Chinese Student that didn’t want to permanently relocate to Canada or the US.
Democracy and freedom of thought.
Despite your experience of Foreign Chinese Students being confused rather than liberated by the West...in my experience I’ve never met a Foreign Chinese Student that didn’t want to permanently relocate to Canada or the US.
For those in an (economic) position to emigrate, China lacks nothing in a material sense. Cars, electronics, clothes - they're not only available, they're well within the purchasing power of these people. In fact, what I dislike most about modern China is the endless gleaming shopping malls full of the same (mostly Western) brands.
But not everything is material, and creativity and freedom of expression definitely have an impact. I have a reasonably large circle of Chinese acquaintances via my wife, and anecdotally, I've never met a single emigrant who actually returned.
A lot of them definitely complain regularly about how much better China is, but none of them actually pack up and head back. I think that's telling.
But not everything is material, and creativity and freedom of expression definitely have an impact. I have a reasonably large circle of Chinese acquaintances via my wife, and anecdotally, I've never met a single emigrant who actually returned.
A lot of them definitely complain regularly about how much better China is, but none of them actually pack up and head back. I think that's telling.
Not sure how much of that is political rights, and how much of it is just less competitive pressure abroad because of lower population. Easier to get into colleges and find jobs. Might want to ask and confirm.
> less competitive pressure abroad
Or in other words, better quality of life? Yes, you can drive a new beemer, have a house with a pool and and 3 holidays abroad every year in China too -- if you are the one in a hundred to win the job lottery and work 60 hours a week not to get sacked (or if your daddy is a CCP aristocrat).
In the US/Western Europe/Japan at least half the people can affort that upper-middle class living standard, while only working 40 hours.
It's less competitive pressure because everyone can achieve it.
Or in other words, better quality of life? Yes, you can drive a new beemer, have a house with a pool and and 3 holidays abroad every year in China too -- if you are the one in a hundred to win the job lottery and work 60 hours a week not to get sacked (or if your daddy is a CCP aristocrat).
In the US/Western Europe/Japan at least half the people can affort that upper-middle class living standard, while only working 40 hours.
It's less competitive pressure because everyone can achieve it.
Never thought I would type these words but if you think half the people in any place can manage an upper middle class lifestyle, you need to check both your statistics and your privilege.
If you drop the 3 vacations abroad and the 'new' appellation to the car, then 1/2 of the people in the US can reasonably aspire to the rest of that with hard work and self discipline.
[deleted]
No idea why you think workers in Japan, as the general rule, are working 40 hour weeks when it's famously much more than that. For example[1]:
> Nearly one quarter of Japanese companies require employees to work more than 80 hours of overtime a month, according to a 2016 government survey. Those extra hours are often unpaid.
The article also mentions the lack of holiday or workers taking holiday, which the government tried to force happen via legislation[2]:
> Japanese workers are so reluctant to leave their offices that they took less than half their holiday entitlement in 2013. The government now wants to raise that total to 70 per cent by 2020, according to the Yomiuri newspaper.
> At present, employees are entitled to a minimum of 10 days paid leave annually, with the figure increasing one day for every year that they work to a maximum of 20 days a year.
[1] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/01/japan-has-some-of-the-longes...
[2] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/japan/113338...
> Nearly one quarter of Japanese companies require employees to work more than 80 hours of overtime a month, according to a 2016 government survey. Those extra hours are often unpaid.
The article also mentions the lack of holiday or workers taking holiday, which the government tried to force happen via legislation[2]:
> Japanese workers are so reluctant to leave their offices that they took less than half their holiday entitlement in 2013. The government now wants to raise that total to 70 per cent by 2020, according to the Yomiuri newspaper.
> At present, employees are entitled to a minimum of 10 days paid leave annually, with the figure increasing one day for every year that they work to a maximum of 20 days a year.
[1] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/01/japan-has-some-of-the-longes...
[2] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/japan/113338...
A bit Survivor bias? Recent six years about half of my friends went back. I’m biased as well since many of them got green card and/or coming from Tier-1 city
As I admitted, it's purely anecdotal - I'm not denying that there are a lot of Chinese who do in fact return.
But net migration is still negative, meaning there's more people leaving China than returning.
https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/CHN/china/net-migratio....
I'm not sure how that figure is calculated, but I also wonder if it under-represents "pseudo-migrants" who claim to be living/holidaying temporarily in (say) Australia, but who seem to stay indefinitely.
But net migration is still negative, meaning there's more people leaving China than returning.
https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/CHN/china/net-migratio....
I'm not sure how that figure is calculated, but I also wonder if it under-represents "pseudo-migrants" who claim to be living/holidaying temporarily in (say) Australia, but who seem to stay indefinitely.
China literally has a billion more humans than the US.
Is it really "freedom of expression" they want or just the lack of competition and the increase in living space?
Is it really "freedom of expression" they want or just the lack of competition and the increase in living space?
Anecdotally, when I came back to my 1+ million people city in Europe from a vacation in China I immediately noticed the silence, the few people around, the short lines and the open sky. Of course my city is renowned /s in the rest of the country for the noise, the crowd, the long lines and the tall buildings covering the sky.
Also very possible.
In fact, what I dislike most about modern China is the endless gleaming shopping malls full of the same (mostly Western) brands.
Isn't that the point the OP is making though? That China is full of western brands that seem to outcompete local brands, yet PRC propaganda keeps claiming the rest of the world is using the wrong economic model.
Isn't that the point the OP is making though? That China is full of western brands that seem to outcompete local brands, yet PRC propaganda keeps claiming the rest of the world is using the wrong economic model.
The comment I responded to was asking “what can Chinese people get in the West that they can’t get in China”.
My point is that whatever it is, it’s not material goods. It’s something more ephemeral. Whether that’s democracy, creativity, or simply a slower pace of life due to not competing with 1 billion other people - who knows.
My point is that whatever it is, it’s not material goods. It’s something more ephemeral. Whether that’s democracy, creativity, or simply a slower pace of life due to not competing with 1 billion other people - who knows.
> Democracy and freedom of thought.
Some people don't miss that at all,as their personal views are so neatly aligned with the ruling regime that a) their thoughts are not constrained, thus free, and b) having any other form of government would represent a suboptimal solution dictated by a ignorant majority.
This has been observed in pretty much any totalitarian regime since ever in a fraction of the population that in some cases might be the majority.
Some people don't miss that at all,as their personal views are so neatly aligned with the ruling regime that a) their thoughts are not constrained, thus free, and b) having any other form of government would represent a suboptimal solution dictated by a ignorant majority.
This has been observed in pretty much any totalitarian regime since ever in a fraction of the population that in some cases might be the majority.
> Having these examples in their hands or on their screens likely initiates a mild cognitive dissonance
You’d be surprised, but no, it doesn’t. And from my experience, older people sometimes just kind of don’t like America, in the same way older Americans don’t like Cuba. Government says their government is bad, don’t really know the people but maybe they’re “brainwashed” unlike us, but the few I’ve met are okay so no reason to really do anything but ignore the country.
Younger people I’ve talked to seem to know a considerable amount about America, and quite a lot of bad. The idea seems to be that companies build things in China because their country can’t and companies like the NBA and so on focus on them because they’re more important now. Which, well, isn’t clearly wrong. If all those American things up and vanished, it’d be a topic for a week and people would stop caring. It’s more normal for products and media to just vanish.
The NBA isn’t an ambassador of anything. It’s a corporate sports team that knows China doesn’t really give a shit about them, but it’s a good chance to get money from what’s likely to be the largest economy in about a decade. That’s all any of these companies are doing, and their road of good intentions is just pumping money into China’s goal of being number 1.
I think it’s entirely fine for the NBA to decide that they want to decide they want to be friendly towards the Chinese market. I also think it’s fine for America to drop the NBA for being the weak, hypocritically “woke” corporation that it is. Either drop politics altogether and be a regular soulless corporation, or actually stand up for what’s right but not only in specific, comfy locations and with safe political statements.
You’d be surprised, but no, it doesn’t. And from my experience, older people sometimes just kind of don’t like America, in the same way older Americans don’t like Cuba. Government says their government is bad, don’t really know the people but maybe they’re “brainwashed” unlike us, but the few I’ve met are okay so no reason to really do anything but ignore the country.
Younger people I’ve talked to seem to know a considerable amount about America, and quite a lot of bad. The idea seems to be that companies build things in China because their country can’t and companies like the NBA and so on focus on them because they’re more important now. Which, well, isn’t clearly wrong. If all those American things up and vanished, it’d be a topic for a week and people would stop caring. It’s more normal for products and media to just vanish.
The NBA isn’t an ambassador of anything. It’s a corporate sports team that knows China doesn’t really give a shit about them, but it’s a good chance to get money from what’s likely to be the largest economy in about a decade. That’s all any of these companies are doing, and their road of good intentions is just pumping money into China’s goal of being number 1.
I think it’s entirely fine for the NBA to decide that they want to decide they want to be friendly towards the Chinese market. I also think it’s fine for America to drop the NBA for being the weak, hypocritically “woke” corporation that it is. Either drop politics altogether and be a regular soulless corporation, or actually stand up for what’s right but not only in specific, comfy locations and with safe political statements.
> Perhaps we should not abandon them any sooner than we must.
Who said anything about the NBA abandoning China? Their government is free to permit watching it or not.
> The NBA should stick to 'we are ambassadors for the USA to the world' and leave any politics at that.
Silence can also be a political viewpoint. If you don't stand up for what you believe in you may lose it. The NBA has done a balancing act for the Chinese government, and neither moneyed interests nor government politics dictates what will happen next.
Who said anything about the NBA abandoning China? Their government is free to permit watching it or not.
> The NBA should stick to 'we are ambassadors for the USA to the world' and leave any politics at that.
Silence can also be a political viewpoint. If you don't stand up for what you believe in you may lose it. The NBA has done a balancing act for the Chinese government, and neither moneyed interests nor government politics dictates what will happen next.
> A few examples of excellence that are still available to Chinese citizens are the NBA, Apple products, US education and Tesla cars.
I disagree on NBA (sportsmen are not a sign of overall excellence in a country), and Apple (high-end Huawei phones are ridiculously more advanced than apple in hardware terms). USA Education still has a great reputation, and most Musk enterprises are awesome and inspiring.
I disagree on NBA (sportsmen are not a sign of overall excellence in a country), and Apple (high-end Huawei phones are ridiculously more advanced than apple in hardware terms). USA Education still has a great reputation, and most Musk enterprises are awesome and inspiring.
>high-end Huawei phones are ridiculously more advanced than apple in hardware terms
Source on this? Doesn't seem like it...
Source on this? Doesn't seem like it...
I had a Huawei Mate 20X, back when apple still did single-camera flagships. Compared to my wife's iPhone XS Max, it beat it in many hardware metrics:
- Bigger screen
- More RAM
- 50% bigger battery
- 3 high quality cameras, with night mode and macro zoom (2020 iPhone still can't do macro, and night mode is improvable)
The iPhone still came ahead in overall performance, and the newer iPhones have addressed some of these disadvantages, at the cost of losing features like the fingerprint reader (Mate 20X had it in the back, very comfortable to use). Mate had face unlock, but it was 2D, not the more secure 3D map the iPhone does.
Specs here:
- https://www.gsmarena.com/apple_iphone_xs_max-9319.php
- https://www.gsmarena.com/huawei_mate_20_x-9369.php
- Bigger screen
- More RAM
- 50% bigger battery
- 3 high quality cameras, with night mode and macro zoom (2020 iPhone still can't do macro, and night mode is improvable)
The iPhone still came ahead in overall performance, and the newer iPhones have addressed some of these disadvantages, at the cost of losing features like the fingerprint reader (Mate 20X had it in the back, very comfortable to use). Mate had face unlock, but it was 2D, not the more secure 3D map the iPhone does.
Specs here:
- https://www.gsmarena.com/apple_iphone_xs_max-9319.php
- https://www.gsmarena.com/huawei_mate_20_x-9369.php
Nope, this is wishful thinking along with the lines "that allowing China to flaunt WTO rules and prosper will help it to be democratic."
Counter-points
- China doesn't want to sensor innovation, but control it.
- Chinese companies and people have access to the latest innovation in all fields as most of the stuff is assembled there.
- China reverse-engineers these innovations of West and float the market with competition which are many a times subsidized by Communist Party.
- Censorship of individuals does not matter as long as Chinese companies have access to latest innovation which they can reverse engineer.
Counter-points
- China doesn't want to sensor innovation, but control it.
- Chinese companies and people have access to the latest innovation in all fields as most of the stuff is assembled there.
- China reverse-engineers these innovations of West and float the market with competition which are many a times subsidized by Communist Party.
- Censorship of individuals does not matter as long as Chinese companies have access to latest innovation which they can reverse engineer.
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When I first read this headline, I thought it was referring to the social justice statements that NBA players now have the option to add to their jerseys in lieu of their names. Only after a double take did I realize that this is about the jerseys that fans customize and purchase for themselves!
Economics can explain so much.
There is a huge cost to the NBA if they stand with Hong Kong.
There is also a very small cost to the NBA and or more probably no cost at all if they fully embrace other movements such as BLM.
People upset about this are upset because the NBA (and other sports leagues and media) have become more socially active or political lately but they still refuse to speak up on topics that hurt their bottom line.
There is a huge cost to the NBA if they stand with Hong Kong.
There is also a very small cost to the NBA and or more probably no cost at all if they fully embrace other movements such as BLM.
People upset about this are upset because the NBA (and other sports leagues and media) have become more socially active or political lately but they still refuse to speak up on topics that hurt their bottom line.
I don't exactly get it...will Chinese people just start enjoying a different sport if they think few people in basketball don't like how mainland China treats Hong Kong?
What sport isn't going to have athletes using the bully pulpit for their cause, which sometimes is HK?
What sport isn't going to have athletes using the bully pulpit for their cause, which sometimes is HK?
No, the CCP will censor the NBA out of the country if they stand for things like Free Hong Kong.
It's almost like "Woke Capitalism" is just a brand being sold by Capitalists...
China won, they already hold power on all relevant companies in the US and Europe. Thing is, how can we make sure we at least keep some individual liberty as they slowly take control of the world.
This is why I'm not hot on big corporations virtue signalling to us consumers.
It seems that they all have moral, entanglements (to borrow Jada Pinkett's parlance), with China that they cannot seem to reconcile.
But they want to lecture us about important cause du jour?
Please! Spare me the self righteousness.
It seems that they all have moral, entanglements (to borrow Jada Pinkett's parlance), with China that they cannot seem to reconcile.
But they want to lecture us about important cause du jour?
Please! Spare me the self righteousness.
IIRC McDonalds banned black people in China, however they virtue signal about BLM in the USA.
https://heavy.com/news/2020/04/mcdonalds-bans-black-people-c...
Coke Cola used to be pretty pro Nazi back in the 1930s.
https://www.adbranch.com/coca-cola-ads-in-nazi-germany/
Corporations don't care about anything other than keeping the money coming in. So they will support any cause as long as it seems trendy.
https://heavy.com/news/2020/04/mcdonalds-bans-black-people-c...
Coke Cola used to be pretty pro Nazi back in the 1930s.
https://www.adbranch.com/coca-cola-ads-in-nazi-germany/
Corporations don't care about anything other than keeping the money coming in. So they will support any cause as long as it seems trendy.
> Corporations don't care about anything other than keeping the money coming in. So they will support any cause as long as it seems trendy.
Fair enough. But next time either read your own links or get better at obfuscating. Neither of them says what you imply.
Fair enough. But next time either read your own links or get better at obfuscating. Neither of them says what you imply.
Fair enough on the first one as I was guilty of reading the headlines.
> Athletic competition was a Nazi ideal and the Coca-Cola GmbH cashed in heavily on this infatuation by becoming one of the biggest sponsors of sports events, most notably the annual Deutschlandrundfahrt (National Bycicle Championships) and the Soccer Cup.
The second is fine.
> Athletic competition was a Nazi ideal and the Coca-Cola GmbH cashed in heavily on this infatuation by becoming one of the biggest sponsors of sports events, most notably the annual Deutschlandrundfahrt (National Bycicle Championships) and the Soccer Cup.
The second is fine.
I recall Nike being in a similar situation. As I recall, they forbade terms like "sweatshop".
But that's a bit different. For Nike, writing "sweatshop" on a show is equivalent to bashing Nike. Freehongkong isn't a negative message against the NBA itself.
Almost as bad as the taxation without representation some cities have to endure.
You don't know how communism works.
There are no "Chinese companies" or "Chinese investment founds", or "Chinese 5%".
There is only the Party. The single and only united entity, political and economical.
There are wealthy people but they don't own any capital or means of production. They may own a Ferrari but can't own a wheelbarrow. They may decide if they want to buy a villa in Italy, but they can't decide to buy a Pizzeria in Verona.
There is no difference between political and economical power. If you accept any Chinese capital, you are dealing with the Party. The Party's decisions are not economical, they are political. They will destroy any company for a political gain. They don't make any decisions that are apolitical.
It's not about selling your products or services to China, it's about following the politics of the party.
There are no Chinese students. You can't leave a communist state just like that. Money don't matter. You have to be a good citizen, you must leave your family behind, you must agree to cooperate with the intelligence and to follow politics of the Party or you will never will be allowed abroad again or something bad will happen to your family.
There is no China, there's just the Party. There are no individuals, there's just the Party.
There is no difference between political and economical power. If you accept any Chinese capital, you are dealing with the Party. The Party's decisions are not economical, they are political. They will destroy any company for a political gain. They don't make any decisions that are apolitical.
It's not about selling your products or services to China, it's about following the politics of the party.
There are no Chinese students. You can't leave a communist state just like that. Money don't matter. You have to be a good citizen, you must leave your family behind, you must agree to cooperate with the intelligence and to follow politics of the Party or you will never will be allowed abroad again or something bad will happen to your family.
There is no China, there's just the Party. There are no individuals, there's just the Party.
There are more people playing basketball in China (300 millions) than people in the USA.
Think about that for a moment. How many friends of you, American citizen, don’t play basketball but like to watch it?
This is why China is more important to NBA than America.
Think about that for a moment. How many friends of you, American citizen, don’t play basketball but like to watch it?
This is why China is more important to NBA than America.
I don’t understand why stories like this get thru, but other extremely relevent/interesting stories like medical data related to COVID get absolutely no coverage. Is “China Censorship” so relevant to HN that even an NBA-related story is okay?
This mass censorship that we are living in allows and promotes all sorts of manifestations of the so called anti-racism white over black. It's of interest to the controlling regime to do so.
But, when there are manifestations against the totalitarism, they are forbidden. Because, again, the deep govern owns the political, economical, mass-media and so forth all over the world.
What about the WNBA, can you buy their jerseys do customization and irritate the NBA?
its funny to me that you can put "fuck the police" on NBA jersey but you can't put "freehongkong". its kinda double standards, isn't it?
NBA really want that Chinese market. i find it interesting that Western corporation is willing to abandoned the western values they championed for money or rather i guess Corporation don't give a fuck about anything as long as they make money.
NBA really want that Chinese market. i find it interesting that Western corporation is willing to abandoned the western values they championed for money or rather i guess Corporation don't give a fuck about anything as long as they make money.
That seem to be the strategy of the CCP. Blocking foreign influence (Google, Youtube, Facebook, Twitter, etc...) with the Great Firewall while taking advantage of the West's openness to promote their own platform TikTok, WeChat, ...
That allows them to promote their ideologies and export "The China Way" to becoming the next World's superpower without changing. Great way to take advantage of the asymmetry to have your cake and eat it too.
That allows them to promote their ideologies and export "The China Way" to becoming the next World's superpower without changing. Great way to take advantage of the asymmetry to have your cake and eat it too.
America’s organizations want access to the Chinese market and, absent any regulations to the contrary, when necessary are willing to compromise the values of our American Way of Life. But those regulations are (finally) coming. In the meantime, when they are caught doing things like this, they risk being attacked on Twitter by the President.
I tried buying some custom Nikes with "ADIDAS" written on the side. The online tool explicitly banned it. I got the online form to take "PUMA" but the shoes arrived with no custom message.