Oracle Wins Bid for TikTok in U.S.(wsj.com)
wsj.com
Oracle Wins Bid for TikTok in U.S.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/microsoft-drops-out-of-bidding-for-tiktoks-u-s-operations-11600039821
346 comments
Reasonable guess, although I think it would be impossible to guarantee that no data is going back to China.
Oracle can audit the app code and also probably sandbox the back end in such a way that they can be fairly sure things aren't escaping, at least not on a large scale.
What about the CDN that TikTok uses in Fastly? Will it be replaced by Oracle?
Almost certainly why would they use a third party for stuff they offer themselves?
This is a fantastic idea - the only thing missing (that I see) is that Oracle would need to see the source code and verify that the checksum of the apps built from that code matches the downloads from the Google Play Store and App Store.
Otherwise the guarantee that no data is being sent to China is not airtight. Oracle could audit the app every time it gets an update and watch network traffic, but this would miss anything sent by code activated remotely after the fact. It wouldn't work for long, but the US government will look for any reason to deny this deal. I don't think Oracle will audit the app constantly anyway. Come to think of it, that could apply to the source code too, if the malicious code was extremely well hidden.
Otherwise the guarantee that no data is being sent to China is not airtight. Oracle could audit the app every time it gets an update and watch network traffic, but this would miss anything sent by code activated remotely after the fact. It wouldn't work for long, but the US government will look for any reason to deny this deal. I don't think Oracle will audit the app constantly anyway. Come to think of it, that could apply to the source code too, if the malicious code was extremely well hidden.
Right, they will audit the source code but have no IP rights to it, is my guess.
Also they will probably take over responsibility for the Play and App Store accounts and be responsible for pushing the new versions (after audit).
Also they will probably take over responsibility for the Play and App Store accounts and be responsible for pushing the new versions (after audit).
How would they shuttle out that much traffic undetected?
It is a video app. Couldn't you embed the embargoed data into the media content using steganography. All the receiver of the data would need to do is download a modified version of the client, then collect the data. From the server side it would just look like a normal TikTok app watching videos.
Yes. I think you are right. ByteDance is not selling Tiktok outright. They will be using oracle cloud infrastructure. But not sure if that will be enough for the current administration. It feels like tiktok is playing smart.
If it was that simple, Google would have been the obvious choice. They have already started migrating to GCP and signed an $800 million dollar three year deal.
https://www.theinformation.com/articles/tiktok-agreed-to-buy...
https://www.theinformation.com/articles/tiktok-agreed-to-buy...
Only Google doesn't really do B2B. They're B2C. Oracle does B2B.
They've been doing AdWords since 2000 and AdSense since 2003. Those are B2B and have made them many hundreds of billions of dollars in revenue.
Yes. It's made THEM billions of dollars. If you've ever been on the other side of the pipeline, as an advertiser or a web site owner, you know you're treated as a statistic. Businesses suddenly disappear when Google delists them on either end. That's most visible on Youtube, where random Youtubers find themselves demonatized with no apparent rhyme, reason, or appeal, but it happens all over the Googleyweb.
If it's one of a dozen places you advertise, that's fine. If you're trying to run a business where it's a core platform, you quickly run into the limits there.
If it's one of a dozen places you advertise, that's fine. If you're trying to run a business where it's a core platform, you quickly run into the limits there.
Uhhh what?
So, the user graph will be bifurcated, with US users isolated from those in the rest of the world? If so, I don't see how the US-only TikTok remains popular for much longer.
Not really, where does the implication of a bifurcated graph come into play?
Plenty of companies store their users’ data in the US, but user profiles and content made public is visible from anywhere in the world.
Plenty of companies store their users’ data in the US, but user profiles and content made public is visible from anywhere in the world.
My prediction: Oracle couldn’t care less about TikTok as an entity, but wants their IP so they can sue everyone else who has a recommendation engine. No, it won’t make any sense, but much of that organization’s moves are inscrutable to me.
TikTok is about the furthest you would look for something to pass off as novel. If they were buying some decrepit social network precursor which no one ever used or can recall, that might still make more sense under this hypothesis. As it is, I’m sure Oracle already owns IP pertaining to recommendation engines that even predates TikTok’s existence!
THIS THIS THIS.
Oracle is a greedy leech on the world and tech in general. Tiktok has something they want to use to sue other companies. Oracle knows almost no other way to do business.
Oracle is a greedy leech on the world and tech in general. Tiktok has something they want to use to sue other companies. Oracle knows almost no other way to do business.
The parent comment is just a super low effort HN trope. Company everybody hates does something so you have to dream up some silly reason that it fits into the existing narrative about them.
There is literally no reason to think this could possibly happen, apart from “Oracle is bad and they do bad IP lawsuits”. Tik Tok doesn’t have any novel IP that could support a theory like this, and Oracle isn’t even getting any IP in this deal.
There is literally no reason to think this could possibly happen, apart from “Oracle is bad and they do bad IP lawsuits”. Tik Tok doesn’t have any novel IP that could support a theory like this, and Oracle isn’t even getting any IP in this deal.
Doooood. Literally Oracle bought Sun to sue Google. It is not a troll comment. The company on the whole has used IP to attack other companies in the past. It is a well known fact there is no troll about that.
And I would think the magic algorithm that comes along with Tiktok is IP.
Maybe you know the list of patents Bytedances holds? If they do not have IP around that algorithm they are idiots.
Anyway it will be interesting to watch.
And I would think the magic algorithm that comes along with Tiktok is IP.
Maybe you know the list of patents Bytedances holds? If they do not have IP around that algorithm they are idiots.
Anyway it will be interesting to watch.
I think a possibility is that Oracle want to increase their competition with Amazon, Microsoft and Google, all of whom own massive consumer properties and/or social networks.
[deleted]
They aren't getting the IP.
Oracle has a "Data Management Platform" (perhaps a bit better known as BlueKai), which they might consider augmenting with stuff coming out of TikTok.
And that product was just pulled out of Europe last week for privacy violations. There is also a pending class action lawsuit against Oracle (and Salesforce) for this type of product violating GDPR.
So I don't think this is a great step forward for US consumers.
So I don't think this is a great step forward for US consumers.
It seems as though the whole reason that Oracle is getting this and not Microsoft is that Microsoft insisted on getting the recommendation engine in the deal and ByteDance said no -- not exclusively, mind you, at all. Oracle won't be able to do what you're saying.
ByteDance has said publicly that they won't be selling their algorithm (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-09-13/bytedance...) -- so there's no IP angle here. What is Oracle really getting out of the deal?
Just like GM operating in China is not transferring any IP, this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Monza_(China) being manufactured under SAIC-GM, a forced joint venture between GM and Chinese state-owned SAIC Motor is fine and dandy.
They can pass the user data to the US government.
I think that's right. I made this comment on a related thread but didn't put 2+2 together. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24465275
I don’t find it credible that governments are extremely interested in tik tok data.
Having aback catalog of truly embarrassing and possibly liable vids on any future politician, CEO or any useful pawn is worth a lot.
That's an incredibly naive statement. Governments are highly interested in social media.
Given the world-wide adoption of their app on smart phones, I'd say you're mistaken.
Android and iOS are more widespread, therefore an easier/better target for your government.
The app can access your microphone, camera, contacts, location services, and clipboard among other things.
https://www.rd.com/article/the-dangers-of-tiktok-that-are-wo...
https://www.rd.com/article/the-dangers-of-tiktok-that-are-wo...
It’s not just that. Now the Trump administration has control of the world’s best propaganda tool. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/04/technology/oracle-tiktok-...
It's pretty easy for trump to have someone else ghost write his tweets; that' won't work for his tiktok videos...
Its not that angle - imagine being able to turn down anything that is not flattering to him and turn up anything that is unflattering to Joe Biden.
This is the real risk.
This is the real risk.
Isn't that just the reverse of what Facebook and Google do currently?
80 million US users will be seeing one side of the story in November.
There's no chmace any of the technical details would be ready to manipulate propganga before November 3rd. Amusing, no chance
They're doing the deal as part of a consortium, Oracle is getting TikTok's cloud hosting in the US market (at least). Assuming TikTok doesn't fade in the next few years, it'll substantially increase the size of Oracle's cloud business and they can use it as a marketing point.
It suggests that Oracle's cloud business has such dire traction that they can't acquire prominent customers for it any other way than to directly buy part of them. It also speaks to that Ellison & Co. view the cloud shift as a terminal threat for Oracle, one that is getting worse by the day, and that if they don't succeed at building up their cloud business, they will erode and die (and they're right).
Oracle stayed in the game in the last round through massive consolidation, buying up the competition one after another (eg Siebel, PeopleSoft, etc). They'll try the same thing this time around as their organic efforts have largely failed; we'll see how much success they have given they're far outgunned this time around (and running from much further behind).
It suggests that Oracle's cloud business has such dire traction that they can't acquire prominent customers for it any other way than to directly buy part of them. It also speaks to that Ellison & Co. view the cloud shift as a terminal threat for Oracle, one that is getting worse by the day, and that if they don't succeed at building up their cloud business, they will erode and die (and they're right).
Oracle stayed in the game in the last round through massive consolidation, buying up the competition one after another (eg Siebel, PeopleSoft, etc). They'll try the same thing this time around as their organic efforts have largely failed; we'll see how much success they have given they're far outgunned this time around (and running from much further behind).
Has anyone actually ever used their cloud offering? I assume it's awful, but I've never even looked at it.
They have the most generous free tier. 2 free VM's each with 50 GB of storage and 2 free autonomous Oracle databases with 20 GB of storage.
Theoretically they do. Practically I couldn't even get an account last time I tried (a few months ago). It would attempt to charge my credit card a 1 dollar "check the payment is working fee" and fail (even though the charge was going through successfully).
It just worked for me. The card verification page tried to launch Flash for some reason, but it worked even though my browser blocked it.
What is the catch here? That seems good enough to run most things on.
They offer 2 free Oracle databases. The catch is they're Oracle databases.
In other words it's the same as every cloud provider: They hope you'll build a business system that uses enough of their proprietary tech that you can't easily move to another provider.
In other words it's the same as every cloud provider: They hope you'll build a business system that uses enough of their proprietary tech that you can't easily move to another provider.
You can run mysql on any other free database on the 2 free compute instances. It is totally up to you.
The autonomous database is Oracle's offering of their Oracle database - that requires no DBA or tuning and runs on Exadata infrastructure. They are offering it for free - because they want enterprises using existing on-premise Oracle databases, to move their existing DB applications to the cloud.
Oracle Autonomous databases comes with free Oracle APEX - which is a low code / no code toolchain.
The autonomous database is Oracle's offering of their Oracle database - that requires no DBA or tuning and runs on Exadata infrastructure. They are offering it for free - because they want enterprises using existing on-premise Oracle databases, to move their existing DB applications to the cloud.
Oracle Autonomous databases comes with free Oracle APEX - which is a low code / no code toolchain.
You get 1/8 OCPU per VPS
For a hobbyist, the free tier is amazing. 2 micro instances free forever.
They have a free tier that I’ve heard people will run matrix instances on. It seemed somewhat generous.
It's actually pretty solid, UX is also nicer than AWS or GCP
ZOOM Inc cloud partner is oracle. Oracle increasingly seems to be a bridge between US and China.
Zoom is not a Chinese company. Its founder and CEO happens to be Chinese, and they have operations in China, but the company was founded, incorporated, and initially exclusively operated in the U.S.
Development is all done out of China...
Not so. Their engineering core is in San Jose, CA.
Oracle has recently acquired top global brands as customers for their cloud business : https://www.zdnet.com/article/oracle-beats-q1-estimates-wins...
TikTok is a media platform. They are buying audience.
No one thinks this has to do with the relationship between the US President and Oracle? Amazon is throwing a fit because they weren’t chosen to be the Pentagons cloud provider. Now this. It’s favoritism.
Silicon Valley letting this happen without even complaining a little: very disturbing.
I remember tech CEOs complains when h1B visas got cut bc they loved the cheap labor. Silicon valley only jumps in if it benefits their bottom line or for good PR
“Cheap labor” people with visa in FANG companies get paid the same salary as the non visa people, and it was the FANG ceos who complained, so I’m not sure I understand your comment.
TikTok is a black sheep because as soon as you defend it against the US, you’re painted as a Chinese shill advocating for Uighur genocide.
It’s no wonder that Silicon Valley is uninterested in defending it, despite the fact that this sort of deal is likely to severely fracture how tech services are treated by governments in the future.
It’s no wonder that Silicon Valley is uninterested in defending it, despite the fact that this sort of deal is likely to severely fracture how tech services are treated by governments in the future.
It's sad that we are even looking to what stance tech companies have on human rights issues. The government should have sanctioned China severely already, tariffs, you name it.
At leas the pentagon deal was government related. Why the hell is the government putting it's nose up private deals like this and also asking for a cut?
because the government is run like a shady real estate company from the 80s, the president's term for the cut was quite literally, 'key money'
Because in this case the executive branch effectively forced the sale to happen by threatening to ban the platform. TikTok on its own wasn't looking to sell. Now, they have to sell to an American company in order to make Trump happy. So what else do they have to do to make Trump happy?
Well it's borderline acceptable to indirectly forcing them to sell by threatening a ban, but to actively oversee the sale and micromanage it is far beyond the line.
> it's borderline acceptable to indirectly forcing them to sell
It really is not. One of the biggest horrors of the Trump years is the extent to which this kind of capricious executive action has been normalized. A ban is a ban. If you genuinely think an app poses a security risk, then you use one of the executive tools available to shut it down.
There was no "ban" enacted here. It was a bargaining chip used to muck with the markets in an outrageously explicit way. We don't do that in this country. Or we never did before.
The closest equivalent to this in terms of effect would have been the trust busting of the early 20th century. And that involved all three branches of government working over years. This happened because One Guy decided he didn't like TikTok.
It really is not. One of the biggest horrors of the Trump years is the extent to which this kind of capricious executive action has been normalized. A ban is a ban. If you genuinely think an app poses a security risk, then you use one of the executive tools available to shut it down.
There was no "ban" enacted here. It was a bargaining chip used to muck with the markets in an outrageously explicit way. We don't do that in this country. Or we never did before.
The closest equivalent to this in terms of effect would have been the trust busting of the early 20th century. And that involved all three branches of government working over years. This happened because One Guy decided he didn't like TikTok.
Why the hell is the government putting it's nose up private deals like this and also asking for a cut?
This is the correct question to ask, but the answer is quite simple - because Donald Trump is corrupt and thinks he can get away with it.
You had a republic, can you keep it?
This is the correct question to ask, but the answer is quite simple - because Donald Trump is corrupt and thinks he can get away with it.
You had a republic, can you keep it?
[deleted]
I think your answer is right there at the end. They want a cut.
The federal budget is hundreds of tiktoks. and where would the money even go?
I love the cynicism of believing that the presidency is interfering in the deals, but the optimism of believing that it must then go towards Federal budgets and not certain people's pockets. :)
It’s not cynicism that he’s interfering when it’s obvious - literally Trump making statements on his Twitter. As for the money into his pocket; no need, the reasoning for Trump is that it makes his voters like him (since they dislike China), which gets him reelected.
Trump wants the cut , he is not asking for one to actually fund the federal budget.
He wants one to score with the voters. Given the unusual nature of the ask , it could be a donation to the project of his choicing like the wall
He wants one to score with the voters. Given the unusual nature of the ask , it could be a donation to the project of his choicing like the wall
Well in this case, ByteDance was the one that rejected the Microsoft/Walmart deal. Not the US President.
'ByteDance let us know today they would not be selling TikTok’s US operations to Microsoft.' [0]
[0] https://blogs.microsoft.com/blog/2020/09/13/microsoft-statem...
'ByteDance let us know today they would not be selling TikTok’s US operations to Microsoft.' [0]
[0] https://blogs.microsoft.com/blog/2020/09/13/microsoft-statem...
Well that doesn’t mean much, the White House could have signaled to ByteDance on the DL that they’d torpedo any non-Oracle deal... who knows, banning a single company from operating domestically without any immediate proven national security threat is unprecedented, the president just does whatever he feels like.
This is such a huge clusterfuck, I don't know why anyone would buy it. Microsoft is lucky to have gotten away from it. What does acquiring the US operations even mean? Do they get code and if so who is going to take it forward? The engineers are all byte dance employees. They have a few engineers outside of China but the bulk of the talent is in China, that is where the innovation is coming from. Without them it doesn't make sense to get the operations. The user base is going to drastically fall and it will be a write-off in 2yrs time. All of the money is wasted.
> that is where the innovation is coming from
Wasn’t tiktok just running a huge campaign about how all the work is done in the US, it just happens to be hq-ed in China?
Wasn’t tiktok just running a huge campaign about how all the work is done in the US, it just happens to be hq-ed in China?
Which is true, for TikTok.
It's not true for ByteDance though, which appears to be where the algorithms came from.
It's not true for ByteDance though, which appears to be where the algorithms came from.
You think oracle is paying for this without it being rewarded some nice matching government contracts or other investments/deals to match the expense?
Yep, exactly like how Microsoft was compensated for buying Skype. This stuff is not without precedent.
Skype was not sponsored by a foreign power but by liberal minded founders using P2P technology. Still a "national security" threat (actually a hegemony threat) so it had to be addressed somehow. Microsoft was happy to help.
It also helps explain a little the hapless treatment of the Skype brand under Microsoft. Not that Microsoft hasn't bought companies and mismanaged the assets before, but they really didn't know what to do with Skype.
Skype was not sponsored by a foreign power but by liberal minded founders using P2P technology. Still a "national security" threat (actually a hegemony threat) so it had to be addressed somehow. Microsoft was happy to help.
It also helps explain a little the hapless treatment of the Skype brand under Microsoft. Not that Microsoft hasn't bought companies and mismanaged the assets before, but they really didn't know what to do with Skype.
This is likely explanation why Oracle was able to acquire TikTok's operation, despite the fact it does not seem to be a good fit at all: https://www.businessinsider.com/look-inside-president-trump-...
I don’t think “being able to acquire” an organization or operations requires a “good fit,” but the reason for wanting to would.
That's just speculation. Recall that Microsoft was rejected by TikTok leaving Oracle as the sole contender.
See: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/13/technology/tiktok-microso...
See: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/13/technology/tiktok-microso...
The way I am reading this is that Microsoft put some many security restrictions in place that they would be eliminated.
Me thinks this was all a massive gambit to win the JEDI deal, hobble Oracle with a turd, and then pull out.
Me thinks this was all a massive gambit to win the JEDI deal, hobble Oracle with a turd, and then pull out.
Can you elaborate upon the corporate strategy you are seeing?
> Weeks later, China issued new regulations that would essentially bar TikTok from transferring its technology to a foreign buyer without explicit permission from the Chinese government.
> The Chinese regulations helped scuttle the effort by Microsoft, which said the only way it could both protect the privacy of TikTok users in the United States and prevent Beijing from using the app as a venue for disinformation was to take over the computer source code underlying the app, and the algorithms that determine what videos are seen by the 100 million Americans who use it each month.
This makes it clear that China has ties to Oracle management in some form or another, or Oracle wouldn't be the last man standing. This is going to be a shitshow.
> The Chinese regulations helped scuttle the effort by Microsoft, which said the only way it could both protect the privacy of TikTok users in the United States and prevent Beijing from using the app as a venue for disinformation was to take over the computer source code underlying the app, and the algorithms that determine what videos are seen by the 100 million Americans who use it each month.
This makes it clear that China has ties to Oracle management in some form or another, or Oracle wouldn't be the last man standing. This is going to be a shitshow.
Nah, all that Microsoft is trying to imply is that Oracle doesn’t give a shit about security engineering, and that the goofy geopolitical business alone does nothing for users. It’s plausible.
> This makes it clear that China has ties to Oracle management in some form or another
Oracle also has ties to Trump. This stinks.
Oracle also has ties to Trump. This stinks.
Every company at this level has ties to the executive branch, and much more. Remember last year when the DoD wrote Microsoft a $10 billion check?
There’s a difference with having a contract with a department and being best buddies with an autocrat wannabe. Who then signs an executive order and invokes national security on very shaky grounds to force a sale.
Still, I’m not saying that the $10B DoD contract and the way they tortured the process to avoid giving it to Amazon did not stink as well. Or that Amazon as a company is fine. There can be more than one festering carcass in a swamp.
Still, I’m not saying that the $10B DoD contract and the way they tortured the process to avoid giving it to Amazon did not stink as well. Or that Amazon as a company is fine. There can be more than one festering carcass in a swamp.
The Trump admin is strongly suspected of handing the JEDI contract of Microsoft and Oracle was one of the plaintiffs suing over bias.
It needs to be said that US admin interfering/forcing this deal citing "national security" concerns in a situation where US companies already dominate social platforms sends a very, very strong signal for other countries to demand social data to be stored on their respective soil as well. It's the end of the illusion of a competitive market in the "internet" and will have far-reaching consequences. In which world would EU, India, South/Mid America give a free pass to US oligopolies capturing almost all advertising revenue?
The US threatened to impose tariffs on India for trying to do this. US is all free markets as long as they can win when they cannot they bully.
is this signal traveling back in time? https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-amazon-cloud/amazon...
It appears Oracle is a “tech partner” in this acquisition.
Isn’t this virtually identical to the Chinese model? For example, NetEase is the tech partner for Blizzard, GCBD for Apple’s iCloud, Sinnet for AWS, who does Microsoft partner with?
This appears to be a working model that the Chinese government will support. I wonder if other nations will start to adopt it.
Isn’t this virtually identical to the Chinese model? For example, NetEase is the tech partner for Blizzard, GCBD for Apple’s iCloud, Sinnet for AWS, who does Microsoft partner with?
This appears to be a working model that the Chinese government will support. I wonder if other nations will start to adopt it.
Yes.
My Chinese friends are joking on this "California on Cloud" scenario. (GCBD is called "Guizhou on Cloud" in Chinese)
My Chinese friends are joking on this "California on Cloud" scenario. (GCBD is called "Guizhou on Cloud" in Chinese)
Global Times (China's CCP-run English Language News Portal) claims that ByteDance will NOT sell TikTok-US operations to Oracle or Microsoft.
Edit: They're probably being technically correct about "sell", but not so much about "operations".
https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/13054102792833884...
Edit: They're probably being technically correct about "sell", but not so much about "operations".
https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/13054102792833884...
Well Facebook has to be happy at least. Oracle has to be the company least likely to run TikTok well.
probably not because it's basically a Pyrrhic victory long-term. It'll drastically increase the chances of Facebook facing those issues in other countries, which would be devastating to the global business model of US software firms, and Facebook might get regulators attention again if the only significant competitor dies. I think Zuckerberg even said as much.
Oracle is more if a conglomerate these days. I would focus on cloud, ads, data tools as the main reasons to have this business line.
(Written for another post regarding the same topic, copied here)
Oracle purchasing a stake in ByteDance, and maybe handling US operations? It sounds like one of those deals which will end up as a loss in a few years and a write-down. The first comparison that comes to mind is the Tumblr sale, when Yahoo wrote-down $712 million, although the companies are quite different. However, the similarity is the culture difference between the parent and subsidiary companies - Yahoo couldn't figure out how to turn Tumblr profitable as they had no successful examples prior, as far as I remember. Oracle and TikTok could not be more different: Oracle is a cold cloud technology supplier with no business advertising to teens.
If Oracle wishes to only be the cloud partner holding US data (a possibility mentioned in the article) it's possible that it could work out, but whether it is possible is dependent on politics and potentially who is elected as the next President.
Oracle purchasing a stake in ByteDance, and maybe handling US operations? It sounds like one of those deals which will end up as a loss in a few years and a write-down. The first comparison that comes to mind is the Tumblr sale, when Yahoo wrote-down $712 million, although the companies are quite different. However, the similarity is the culture difference between the parent and subsidiary companies - Yahoo couldn't figure out how to turn Tumblr profitable as they had no successful examples prior, as far as I remember. Oracle and TikTok could not be more different: Oracle is a cold cloud technology supplier with no business advertising to teens.
If Oracle wishes to only be the cloud partner holding US data (a possibility mentioned in the article) it's possible that it could work out, but whether it is possible is dependent on politics and potentially who is elected as the next President.
That's hilarious, really. In my experience if you want to kill a company have Oracle acquire it. (that may be a bit too cynical)
> (that may be a bit too cynical)
"You actually don't need to be open-minded about Oracle, you are wasting the openness of your mind [...] As you know people, as you learn about things, you realize that these generalizations we have are, virtually to a generalization, false. Well, except for this one, as it turns out. What you think of Oracle, is even truer than you think it is. There has been no entity in human history with less complexity or nuance to it than Oracle."
- Bryan Cantrill, https://youtu.be/-zRN7XLCRhc?t=2046
"You actually don't need to be open-minded about Oracle, you are wasting the openness of your mind [...] As you know people, as you learn about things, you realize that these generalizations we have are, virtually to a generalization, false. Well, except for this one, as it turns out. What you think of Oracle, is even truer than you think it is. There has been no entity in human history with less complexity or nuance to it than Oracle."
- Bryan Cantrill, https://youtu.be/-zRN7XLCRhc?t=2046
“Do not make the mistake of anthropomorphizing Larry Ellison.”
What's more human than wanting to make as much money as possible for the least amount of work?
My favourite humans see money as a means to an end.
“Computers aren’t the thing. They’re the thing that gets us to the thing.” - Halt and Catch Fire
One of my favorite YouTubers is Rob Dahm because of that exact reason.
Honestly I would take that oracle job described above in a heartbeat
That made me lol in a bathroom cubicle.
Oracle acquired two of our customers. Within 2 years they were both dead. Meanwhile every other company in the same industry was thriving.
Oracle is where things go to die.
RIP TikTok.
Oracle is where things go to die.
RIP TikTok.
I was getting concerned my kids were spending too much time on TikTok. I guess that problem is solved now.
Do children not enjoy software license audits?
They're just playing the long game. This is the indoctrination to produce future middle managers that will choose Oracle products.
Perhaps the children's audit problems can be overlooked if they would like to purchase some nearly-usable HR management or accountancy software at this time.
An Oracle salesman once regaled me with tales of the "Larry Bonuses" that were payoffs issued to staff sexually harassed by the boss. He seemed to find it hilarious. I was underwhelmed - I have no idea if Ellison is a serial sexual harasser, but the fact that senior sales staff find the idea hilarious and laudable says that maybe you should be worried about what Oracle staff would do with access to information about teenagers.
TikTok will be fine. They will continue existing in every single other country.
Banned in India. Highly dependent if Chinese open their markets or not.
"Banned" in India. In countries like India, most people are using Android and a large number are using third party app stores or installing APKs. So market presence will stay. Monetization will be impossible, sure, but India is not really profitable anyways.
> a large number are using third party app stores or installing APKs
Any source for this? I wasn't aware that third party stores are used by the general population as commonly as the play store anywhere.
Any source for this? I wasn't aware that third party stores are used by the general population as commonly as the play store anywhere.
I've been to a developing country where I suspect split between play store and bluetooth APK sharing is about 50/50. Most phones have APK sharing application installed at the point of purchase and some people aren't even signed-in on the Play store, despite using the internet and WhatsApp.
Xender is more popular than Play store near where I live
As commonly? Outside of China, not really a thing. But widely used, and complemented even more strongly with installation of APKs? Yes.
As an Indian who is around many non-tech oriented Android users, I am not sure about a large number of people using third-party stores. It will be interesting to see a survey or study about it.
Another thing is that with such bans, all major ISPs and network carriers are instructed to block the traffic to the related domains, so the app won't work anyway unless they roll out with a lot of changes.
Another thing is that with such bans, all major ISPs and network carriers are instructed to block the traffic to the related domains, so the app won't work anyway unless they roll out with a lot of changes.
Japan and Australia have legislation in the works and there are rumblings in a few EU countries.
India is not a relevant market.
This is one of those comments that I think there should be a wall of fame for it to be displayed. Another one I'm reminded of is this one[0].
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8279606
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8279606
You can favourite comments for people to see them in your profile. Click on the time of the comment for the link to appear.
Someone did this for posts last week (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24351073) but I don't know if there would be enough overlap to do it for comments.
IIRC, one of HN's most favorite comments is the one describing the experience of developing the Oracle database.
Here is the list of the most favorited comments on HN as compiled by 'dang:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24360449
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24360449
Probably this one, then: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18442941
Wow, this video about Oracle is a must-watch. I was in fits of laughter.
Bryan is brilliant, but he misses the mark on generalizations. Popular generalizations are actually pretty accurate.
Possibly on a macro scale, rarely on a micro scale.
If you are generalising on the micro scale you're definitely doing it wrong :)
I mean, yeah, but it's a super common bug in humans, who frequently want to translate between scales incorrectly (hence law of large/small numbers gambling errors, some kinds of discrimination/prejudice, bad generalizations, being upset when a 90% likely event doesn't happen, etc.)
As far back as 15 years ago, Oracle had the reputation of being the company where people would come to work, close their office door, and then work on a second job or side project in peace and quiet. Oracle was/is powered by zero innovation and all enterprise sales.
I thought the idea of Microsoft buying TikTok was funny, but I couldn't think of a company more effective to dismantle TikTok than Oracle.
I thought the idea of Microsoft buying TikTok was funny, but I couldn't think of a company more effective to dismantle TikTok than Oracle.
> Oracle was/is powered by zero innovation and all enterprise sales.
Oracle has one of the last couple of proper industrial research labs left in the industry.
It regularly publishes at the top venues in multiple fields and funds a lot of academics.
Oracle has one of the last couple of proper industrial research labs left in the industry.
It regularly publishes at the top venues in multiple fields and funds a lot of academics.
Also Google, Microsoft, Facebook, IBM... and others
Examples?
Usually they have a paper at Sigmod
2018: https://sigmod2018.org/sigmod_industrial_list.shtml
RAPID: In-Memory Analytical Query Processing Engine with Extreme Performance per Watt
2020: https://sigmod2020.org/sigmod_industrial_list.shtml
Database Workload Capacity Planning using Time Series Analysis and Machine Learning
2018: https://sigmod2018.org/sigmod_industrial_list.shtml
RAPID: In-Memory Analytical Query Processing Engine with Extreme Performance per Watt
2020: https://sigmod2020.org/sigmod_industrial_list.shtml
Database Workload Capacity Planning using Time Series Analysis and Machine Learning
[citation needed]
Less sarcastically, I’d like to see some examples of this as I have a genuine interest in the topic.
Less sarcastically, I’d like to see some examples of this as I have a genuine interest in the topic.
> I thought the idea of Microsoft buying TikTok was funny
You're not wrong - it is a little funny.
But on the other hand, they have been running LinkedIn (and Github!) pretty successfully, so it's not that ridiculous.
You're not wrong - it is a little funny.
But on the other hand, they have been running LinkedIn (and Github!) pretty successfully, so it's not that ridiculous.
> running LinkedIn pretty successfully
Minus the avoidable password breaches
Minus the avoidable password breaches
LinkedIn and Github are not TikTok :)
True, but they have both operated independently & incredibly successfully with full support from Microsoft’s leadership.
If TikTok had a future, it was at Microsoft.
And Microsoft has a pretty successful consumer products division -- not the cash cow that enterprise sales are to them, but they do have consumer products. Including the Xbox division, which targets a lot of the market that TikTok does. Exactly what direct-to-consumer business targeting people in their teens/early 20s does Oracle have?
> Exactly what direct-to-consumer business targeting people in their teens/early 20s does Oracle have?
Ah, but therein lies the genius of the purchase.
In 40 years, the current TikTok userbase will be technology-hating, risk-adverse VPs -- a prime Oracle demographic.
They're just getting in early.
Ah, but therein lies the genius of the purchase.
In 40 years, the current TikTok userbase will be technology-hating, risk-adverse VPs -- a prime Oracle demographic.
They're just getting in early.
Speaking of which, I remember when my friends thought Minecraft was going to die because Microsoft bought Mojang.
Speaking of which, I remember when I thought Minecraft andead because Microsoft bought them.d Mojang were
I know people who worked (full time) for Oracle who didn't even need to go to the office, they just did stuff remotely from time to time (never more than one hour/day). They actually had a second full time job that they went to.
Wait Oracle doesn't have open floor plans?
I guess I'll be polishing my resume.
I guess I'll be polishing my resume.
When I was at Oracle I had a private locking office with a window with a mountain view as an intern.
Amazing. When was that?
2013. They’re still in the same offices though.
They paid for an apartment and car as well!
It’s a great place to be, actually.
They paid for an apartment and car as well!
It’s a great place to be, actually.
How is that possible? Is there just a really high supply of window offices? ie. does the office building have a really high window to floor area ratio?
Thin buildings produce a surprising amount of exterior windows. The last high rise I worked in put most of the common functionality near the core (hallways, bathrooms, elevators, printers) to maximize the amount of work space that had a view.
Sadly it was looking out over the West side of Chicago from the West side of the loop, so the view was mediocre even when the weather played nice.
Sadly it was looking out over the West side of Chicago from the West side of the loop, so the view was mediocre even when the weather played nice.
It makes sense when you realise the building is in the shape of a giant pentagram.
Big server rooms and fabrication labs in the middle, and some support staff in cubicles.
Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (where I work) certainly does. It's about similar working environment to most tech companies in the area, so not exactly something to be driving me to seek employment elsewhere.
One of the nice things about this pandemic has been how silent my office is. So much easier to keep my head down and churn code / solutions to problems out.
One of the nice things about this pandemic has been how silent my office is. So much easier to keep my head down and churn code / solutions to problems out.
Depends. I know someone who has an open office floor. The benefit is that the floors that have open offices have newer cafeterias and more amenities than the ones without open offices. Plus, the offices are pretty empty, even if they are open office.
Yes when I worked there a guy literally played WoW in his cubicle all day. It was no secret. He didn’t get fired for performance either, just culled in a RIF lol.
Technically that would make it a startup incubator :-)
The only reason for Oracle to buy TikTok is purely political. It is a 'truly' us company not a CCP company. And I trust NSA more than I trust CCP.
No, that is pretty much accurate. Their flagship database is outstanding, worth every penny, the one to beat. However everything else they touch just wilts and dies. They don’t just have a black thumb, they have eleven of them. They killed Sun, Solaris, libdb (remember sleepycat software?), Java, and would have killed mysql if it didn’t fork. They are the bane of anyone looking for a job that encounters their horrid candidate management software. Forget COVID, murder hornets, and global warming - my nightmare is that one day Richard Hipp retires or falls ill and Oracle takes over SQLite.
Their flagship database was outstanding 20 years ago.
Today..not worth the price tag. And if you do pay the price tag, you're going to need some high priced DBAs to baby it along.
To your list I would add that with Hudson they achieved such an own-goal that all anyone knows is the renamed fork, Jenkins. (Which I believe was named after Leeroy Jenkins...)
Today..not worth the price tag. And if you do pay the price tag, you're going to need some high priced DBAs to baby it along.
To your list I would add that with Hudson they achieved such an own-goal that all anyone knows is the renamed fork, Jenkins. (Which I believe was named after Leeroy Jenkins...)
> Their flagship database was outstanding 20 years ago.
Agreed. Having worked with and delivered some great solutions with Oracle DB in the 2000's, I've been telling people since at least 2010, that Oracle used to be the answer to the question, "which enterprise database?", but now is the answer to "which is the one vendor I should avoid at all costs?"
Agreed. Having worked with and delivered some great solutions with Oracle DB in the 2000's, I've been telling people since at least 2010, that Oracle used to be the answer to the question, "which enterprise database?", but now is the answer to "which is the one vendor I should avoid at all costs?"
It was actually named after the butler from Scooby Doo (Hudson was named after Angus Hudson, the butler from Upstairs, Downstairs)
> Which I believe was named after Leeroy Jenkins...
IIRC, they wanted an English butler name[1] snooty enough to match "Hudson" - and Jenkins fit the bill (you can almost hear the British accent)
1. https://www.jenkins.io/blog/2011/01/11/hudsons-future/
IIRC, they wanted an English butler name[1] snooty enough to match "Hudson" - and Jenkins fit the bill (you can almost hear the British accent)
1. https://www.jenkins.io/blog/2011/01/11/hudsons-future/
Doing business with Oracle is a very risky thing. Their hard selling tactics are despicable, bordering on blackmail.
Oracle software licenses are so opaque that there's almost no way to be compliant and that's by design.
So in essence: Either you pay more for your existing installation or buy some additional shit, which you don't need, or else.
The or else is the threat of a software audit, which is almost guaranteed to find you non-compliant and gives you 30 days to either pay up or get rid of every Oracle software component. Best of luck with that.
There are umpteen stories about this behavior on the web. For example this: [1].
Oracle's business model is not really technology, but a licensing racket for enterprise customers. Sort of
Nice company you have here, would be a shame if something happens to it
[1] https://www.netnetweb.com/content/blog/oracle-audits-will-ge...
edit : rephrased a sentence
Oracle software licenses are so opaque that there's almost no way to be compliant and that's by design.
So in essence: Either you pay more for your existing installation or buy some additional shit, which you don't need, or else.
The or else is the threat of a software audit, which is almost guaranteed to find you non-compliant and gives you 30 days to either pay up or get rid of every Oracle software component. Best of luck with that.
There are umpteen stories about this behavior on the web. For example this: [1].
Oracle's business model is not really technology, but a licensing racket for enterprise customers. Sort of
Nice company you have here, would be a shame if something happens to it
[1] https://www.netnetweb.com/content/blog/oracle-audits-will-ge...
edit : rephrased a sentence
SQLite “license”[0]:
Instead of a license, the SQLite source code offers a blessing:
May you do good and not evil May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others May you share freely, never taking more than you give.
[0] https://www.sqlite.org/different.html
Instead of a license, the SQLite source code offers a blessing:
May you do good and not evil May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others May you share freely, never taking more than you give.
[0] https://www.sqlite.org/different.html
Ian Murdock, one of the creators of debian even resigned once sun was acquired by Oracle.
Regarding the MySQL forks, what is the story? Do you mean MariaDB, or some other fork that I'm not aware of? Honestly I'm surprised at how MySQL managed to survive... Among all those other products that you mentioned, I would have thought it would be the first to die, because some people at Oracle might see it as a competitor of Oracle DB.
MySQL success is a mix of momentum, innovation in forks being backported, and a strategic focus on InnoDB at the expense of all other engines.
I'd say they are doing a mediocre job on the whole. But I may just be bitter over recent bugs like renaming a table crashing the server.
I'd say they are doing a mediocre job on the whole. But I may just be bitter over recent bugs like renaming a table crashing the server.
didn't Redhat remove MySql from RHEL7 and replace with MariaDB, only to add it back (in addition to Maria) in RHEL8?
Any ideas why?
Any ideas why?
IIRC are several forks of MySQL other than MariaDB, such as Percona.
Percona is not really a fork, it's the upstream MySQL (8 currently) with some patches which add more visibility to what's going on inside (and some performance stuff like the thread pool).
Arguable these kind of "forks" are the one that keep mysql development and innovation progressing because those vendors would often submit those patches upstream.
> Their flagship database is outstanding, worth every penny, the one to beat.
Nah. If it were any good then the license wouldn't prohibit you from benchmarking it.
Nah. If it were any good then the license wouldn't prohibit you from benchmarking it.
Not sure they successfully killed Java yet ...
>Oracle is set to be announced as TikTok’s “trusted tech partner” in the U.S., and the deal is likely not to be structured as an outright sale, the person said.
Bytedance isn’t actually selling TikTok, and the White House gets its win.
Bytedance isn’t actually selling TikTok, and the White House gets its win.
Sounds like "joint ventures" that western companies are forced to have in China.
Except in that case, China expects and demands access to virtually everything of any value whatsoever.
I'd say they have been successful with a lot of their acquisitions: BEA, PeopleSoft, Seibel, and many more. Also, I think they have been a better steward of Java than Solaris had been since Java 6.
https://www.oracle.com/corporate/acquisitions/
https://www.oracle.com/corporate/acquisitions/
> Also, I think they have been a better steward of Java than Solaris had been since Java 6.
Sun (the company), not Solaris (the OS). But yeah, Java has done relatively well.
Sun (the company), not Solaris (the OS). But yeah, Java has done relatively well.
All our clients (some with massive deployments for the time) dropped Weblogic and other BEA products the moment of the acquisition. Where did they do well?
Who is using BEA software now? How is Siebel faring against SFDC? (I honestly don't know, wishing to have nothing to do with either.)
Peoplesoft was pretty entrenched when Oracle bought it, and the state of other options in that field remains pretty grim.
Peoplesoft was pretty entrenched when Oracle bought it, and the state of other options in that field remains pretty grim.
On the other hand, when I think fun, young, quirky, etc...my mind goes right to Oracle.
Part of me reads this as ByteDance China getting the last laugh in the game by essentially selling to the least qualified buyer.
[deleted]
No it's not.
Anybody remember PeopleSoft?
Anybody remember PeopleSoft?
I wonder if there was some deal China made with Zhang Yiming to have ByteDance take a worse offer from Oracle, knowing Oracle would end up killing it.
Depending on what part of TikTok Oracle runs this may actually be a good arrangement that works well for both companies.
If Oracle has anything to do with the app itself or its functionality then TikTok will not do well. But if Oracle just manages the data and cloud operations then this may indeed work out well for both companies. Oracle is competent when it comes to data and cloud. That's their core business after all.
If Oracle has anything to do with the app itself or its functionality then TikTok will not do well. But if Oracle just manages the data and cloud operations then this may indeed work out well for both companies. Oracle is competent when it comes to data and cloud. That's their core business after all.
I wonder how the deal is structured with respect to employee stock compensation. I was negotiating with them late last year and most of the comp was going to be in funny-money of the bytedance variety, which is both highly illiquid and hilariously valued. If US tiktok employees get converted to shares of Oracle, that's a substantial upgrade. Of course, they work for Oracle now, but still.
That was unexpected. What Larry will do with it? Sell Oracle to teenagers?
What an irony given Oracle's own roots in USA's espionage agencies.
What an irony given Oracle's own roots in USA's espionage agencies.
“Irony” or “makes complete sense?”
This feels like such a strange acquisition for Oracle. Does anyone have insight on how Oracle envisions the TikTok brand and userbase adding value to the rest of the company?
Oracle needs cloud wins. I doubt they care about the actual functionality of TikTok. (Other than its Trump-annoyance functionality that is enabling this whole transaction, of course.)
[deleted]
[deleted]
Oracle becomes a trusted tech partner of Bytedance:
“ByteDance started opening data centers in India and the US in 2019. This may be strictly for internal purposes, but its possible they plan to launch a cloud hosting service. ByteDance acquired Terark in 2019 which allows databases to run 200x faster by reading compressed data at 50% of the cost. If they launch an external service, the selling point could be faster processing and access to some of ByteDance’s AI tech.
A cloud service combined with enterprise software (and eventually a phone or other hardware) would take a page out of Microsoft’s approach of bundling multiple products and selling them top down through the C- Suite.”
https://turner.substack.com/p/the-rise-of-tiktok-and-underst...
“ByteDance started opening data centers in India and the US in 2019. This may be strictly for internal purposes, but its possible they plan to launch a cloud hosting service. ByteDance acquired Terark in 2019 which allows databases to run 200x faster by reading compressed data at 50% of the cost. If they launch an external service, the selling point could be faster processing and access to some of ByteDance’s AI tech.
A cloud service combined with enterprise software (and eventually a phone or other hardware) would take a page out of Microsoft’s approach of bundling multiple products and selling them top down through the C- Suite.”
https://turner.substack.com/p/the-rise-of-tiktok-and-underst...
> Does anyone have insight on how Oracle envisions the TikTok brand and userbase adding value to the rest of the company?
Sure. The answer is that there is no such significant added value to Oracle, specifically, but TikTok itself will end up selling for bargain basement prices, meaning that added value isn't necessary for an acquisition to make sense.
Sure. The answer is that there is no such significant added value to Oracle, specifically, but TikTok itself will end up selling for bargain basement prices, meaning that added value isn't necessary for an acquisition to make sense.
I think this makes sense. Oracle isn't really acquiring TikTok, just its "US Operations". They presumably won't be responsible for developing algorithms, the app, or the backend, and will instead be running the service and hosting all of the data generated in the United States. Looked at this way, it's more like an unusually deep relationship with a cloud services provider than a buyout, and a huge win of business and reputation for Oracle Cloud.
But is it really a huge reputational win? Us geeks know that Tiktok's scale is huge, but your average bank is not going to be terribly impressed that Oracle is now hosting an app still widely viewed as some random frivolous teen twerk thing.
> but your average bank is not going to be terribly impressed that Oracle is now hosting an app still widely viewed as some random frivolous teen twerk thing.
Absolutely not. If anything, the young user base makes TikTok more valuable. It will be viewed as an analogue to Facebook before it exploded.
Absolutely not. If anything, the young user base makes TikTok more valuable. It will be viewed as an analogue to Facebook before it exploded.
I'm not doubting TikTok's own value, I'm questioning the assertion that owning TikTok will have reputational benefits for Oracle as a cloud hosting provider.
It’s an application with about a billion users. The benefits are tremendous. Banks are not dumb, they do their research before valuing corps
Again, not a question of Tiktok's valuation, but whether this is relevant to bank considering Oracle Cloud for their own infra.
I'd bet that TikTok continues expanding and becomes viewed as more than that.
It's worse than Yahoo acquiring Tumblr. And that killed Tumblr. How much of TikTok is porn right now?
Everyone is making the usual Oracle joke once again... but Oracle owns BlueKai, one of the largest data collection companies.
That is the answer.
TikTok will feed straight into BlueKai.
That data is the value it'll add to their company.
[deleted]
In a way this is brilliant from ByteDance. Sell for the most money to a company that will never grow or operate tiktok in a way that can threaten you outside the US.
If you read the latest statement from Microsoft of how they'd have made sure to implement all the latest "privacy" features for TikTok, it's actually a really great news that ByteDance knows better.
What was the most visible outcome of Microsoft's takeover of GitHub? Some software engineers who happen to live in a wrong peninsula in Europe had their GitHub accounts shutdown with no advance notice and no recourse. So much for the rule of law and for social coding!
I think it's great that people from all over the world have a choice of who to give their data to. If there'd be a worldwide antitrust body, US would already be in trouble! Remember when China blocked Twitter and whatever else? Yeah, aren't we the China now?!
What was the most visible outcome of Microsoft's takeover of GitHub? Some software engineers who happen to live in a wrong peninsula in Europe had their GitHub accounts shutdown with no advance notice and no recourse. So much for the rule of law and for social coding!
I think it's great that people from all over the world have a choice of who to give their data to. If there'd be a worldwide antitrust body, US would already be in trouble! Remember when China blocked Twitter and whatever else? Yeah, aren't we the China now?!
And all that because of a bunch of kids disrupting a rally. It's disgraceful that US companies would agree to participate in this forced sale. What's next? Volkwagen? After all, if this is now a legal way to do business I see absolutely no reason why it would stop at TikTok.
First thing they're going to do is install their slow and really difficult to use BI tools and the db that takes hours to download.
It's insane when I tried installing oracle db and BI tools on my laptop. It was the worst software installation process in my life.
It's insane when I tried installing oracle db and BI tools on my laptop. It was the worst software installation process in my life.
so what? oracle acquires a flavor of the month platform.. it'll be a "remember when" type of story, in 2-3 years, when everyone is just starting to forget tiktok
It's very bizarre. What could Oracle possibly gain from TikTok from a business perspective? It seems so far away from their core business. MySQL, SUN, I kind of understand, but TikTok? Why didn't say Google or Amazon make a bid?
> What could Oracle possibly gain from TikTok from a business perspective?
Further credibility with the US government as they deepen their ties with the NSA and US intelligence. Leads to winning more massive government contracts and more favor from future administrations.
Oracle is ahead of the game. It has realized that ingratiating itself with the government is a recipe for long-term success.
Further credibility with the US government as they deepen their ties with the NSA and US intelligence. Leads to winning more massive government contracts and more favor from future administrations.
Oracle is ahead of the game. It has realized that ingratiating itself with the government is a recipe for long-term success.
It would be interesting to know why Oracle won. Did they offer more money ? Or is TikTok convinced that Oracle won't be able to do something decent with the acquisition ? Other than start fights with facebook etc over tiktok lookalikes ? Oracle will be great at that.
"If we can't have it, then we want to make sure NOONE will profit from it, and we burn that space to the ground in the US" ?
The cynic in me suspects that this is so, Oracle looked like a weird pick from the start. It would have been super interesting to be part of that negotiation.
"If we can't have it, then we want to make sure NOONE will profit from it, and we burn that space to the ground in the US" ?
The cynic in me suspects that this is so, Oracle looked like a weird pick from the start. It would have been super interesting to be part of that negotiation.
Mark Ellison is the only leader in tech who openly runs fundraisers for Trump. The cynic in me suspects that's the entirety of the reasoning.
This is of course supposed to say Larry Ellison but I can't edit.
https://archive.is/55ZvG
> Microsoft earlier Sunday said it was notified earlier in the day of the decision by TikTok parent ByteDance Ltd.
> “We are confident our proposal would have been good for TikTok’s users, while protecting national security interests,” the company said in a statement. “To do this, we would have made significant changes to ensure the service met the highest standards for security, privacy, online safety, and combatting disinformation, and we made these principles clear in our August statement. We look forward to seeing how the service evolves in these important areas.”
Yeah, as a self-appointed member of the worldwide trade commission, enforcing the antitrust rules and regulations, I'm really happy that the Microsoft's bid has been declined!
> Microsoft earlier Sunday said it was notified earlier in the day of the decision by TikTok parent ByteDance Ltd.
> “We are confident our proposal would have been good for TikTok’s users, while protecting national security interests,” the company said in a statement. “To do this, we would have made significant changes to ensure the service met the highest standards for security, privacy, online safety, and combatting disinformation, and we made these principles clear in our August statement. We look forward to seeing how the service evolves in these important areas.”
Yeah, as a self-appointed member of the worldwide trade commission, enforcing the antitrust rules and regulations, I'm really happy that the Microsoft's bid has been declined!
Oracle, really? M&A needs strategic fit to make real sense (for buyers other than financial sponsors), and I don't see any
You don't just pick the highest paying bid, necessarily
You don't just pick the highest paying bid, necessarily
It needs strategic fit FOR THE BUYER, not the seller. Besides, M&A is more driveen ny management hubris than business value anyway.
It also matters for the seller, to some extent, because the employees will now work at Oracle. If you're the CEO of TikTok, and now you're "Chief Social Media Officer" or whatever title the buyer will think up, would you rather hold that job at Oracle, Microsoft or somewhere else?
Sure, if you're the shareholder, you may not care what happens to your former employees, but the buyer should care that the value of the asset they just paid for is inclusive of human capital, and that value depends on the opinion of the people working on the seller's side
Sure, if you're the shareholder, you may not care what happens to your former employees, but the buyer should care that the value of the asset they just paid for is inclusive of human capital, and that value depends on the opinion of the people working on the seller's side
Not sure if everyone knows this, but Oracle owns and rents the largest personal information database in the world. They have more than Facebook or so it’s rumored.
Can you share more on this?
> Oracle Corp. has spent five years and billions of dollars getting really good at following people around the internet. Six acquisitions reportedly totaling at least $3 billion since 2014
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-06/oracle-di...
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-06/oracle-di...
More importantly, they own Datalogix, which aggregates loyalty card details for retail.
This means that Oracle are legitimately the best people to answer the question of which half of your advertising was wasted for offline sales.
Weird, right?
This means that Oracle are legitimately the best people to answer the question of which half of your advertising was wasted for offline sales.
Weird, right?
Here's the arstechnica take on this:
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/09/oracle-one-of-do...
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/09/oracle-one-of-do...
Well rumor circulating in China's VC / startup circle is that this ISN'T true either.
That's a very smart move, they sell it to the least competent bidder possible. If microsoft buys it, you might have a global competitor with big number of Hollywood stars as influencers. With oracle it will be a slow death but with enough money not die anytime soon.
Oracle must have made the most concessions of control to ByteDance. Oracle gets a popular brand, data, and a strong entry into social networks.
That’s very smart of Oracle. They will introduce ERPs to kids from early age. I heard it’s a dream of 10years old to get into the enterprise.
One thing about Oracle, either it prints money for Ellison or it ceases to exist. I suspect tiktok will be no more in about 2 years.
Plain text of the article for those behind paywall:
https://gist.githubusercontent.com/llacb47/2beb750b56bc98a5d...
https://gist.githubusercontent.com/llacb47/2beb750b56bc98a5d...
For the WSJ you can just append this to the URL to bypass the paywall:
?mod=djemalertNEWS
?mod=djemalertNEWS
Chinese law requires that algorithms are not exported out of china. So how would their recommendation algo work which requires processing all this data. Will that run on Oracle cloud in US or in China ?
And how does it stop any bytedance engineer from logging into the cloud machine or looking into the data directly
And how does it stop any bytedance engineer from logging into the cloud machine or looking into the data directly
"Hello Fellow Students!"
The hate around Oracle seems very emotional without reason and reminds me of the hate around Microsoft back in the day.
Oracle's latest acquisition [0] by is a consumer video creation company called sauce.video [1]
It could be that Oracle is looking for a new challenge in video technology to demonstrate the capabilities of their cloud services, even Zoom chosen them for their infrastructure [2].
[0] https://www.oracle.com/corporate/acquisitions/
[1] https://www.oracle.com/corporate/acquisitions/sauce-video/
[2] https://www.oracle.com/customers/zoom.html
Oracle's latest acquisition [0] by is a consumer video creation company called sauce.video [1]
It could be that Oracle is looking for a new challenge in video technology to demonstrate the capabilities of their cloud services, even Zoom chosen them for their infrastructure [2].
[0] https://www.oracle.com/corporate/acquisitions/
[1] https://www.oracle.com/corporate/acquisitions/sauce-video/
[2] https://www.oracle.com/customers/zoom.html
> The hate around Oracle seems very emotional without reason and reminds me of the hate around Microsoft back in the day.
Seriously? There were plenty of legitimate reasons to hate Microsoft "back in the day". Less of them now, but hating Microsoft in the 90s and 00s was not "without reason".
Seriously? There were plenty of legitimate reasons to hate Microsoft "back in the day". Less of them now, but hating Microsoft in the 90s and 00s was not "without reason".
yeah, there's a huge difference between "emotional" and "emotional without reason." operating in bad faith will indeed make people emotional, but for a very good reason.
> > The hate around Oracle seems very emotional without reason and reminds me of the hate around Microsoft back in the day.
> Seriously? There were plenty of legitimate reasons to hate Microsoft "back in the day".
That validates the second half of the comparison as much as it contradicts the first.
> Seriously? There were plenty of legitimate reasons to hate Microsoft "back in the day".
That validates the second half of the comparison as much as it contradicts the first.
> Less of them now, but hating Microsoft in the 90s and 00s was not "without reason".
Never said that, read what I said again.
Never said that, read what I said again.
> The hate around Oracle seems very emotional without reason and reminds me of the hate around Microsoft back in the day.
(emphasis mine) Okay, what am I missing? That looks like exactly the same statement.
(emphasis mine) Okay, what am I missing? That looks like exactly the same statement.
Maybe so. It seems like that will be the case given that TikTok will be on Oracle's infrastructure as part of the deal. So there's one thing at least.
> Holger Mueller, an analyst at Constellation Research, told TechCrunch Oracle’s scoop of TikTok “will add plenty of load to their infrastructure service.”
[0] https://techcrunch.com/2020/09/13/oracle-wins-bid-to-buy-tik...
> Holger Mueller, an analyst at Constellation Research, told TechCrunch Oracle’s scoop of TikTok “will add plenty of load to their infrastructure service.”
[0] https://techcrunch.com/2020/09/13/oracle-wins-bid-to-buy-tik...
There are a lot of different reasons I hate Oracle, but the biggest one is their lawsuit with Google over Android.
This comment reminds me of the scene from Interstellar where the school teacher is telling us that Neil Armstrong never went to the moon.
Or Zoom is going through them so the US government can spy more conveniently.
"You are not allowed to spy on our citizens like that."
"Well, someone has to spy on them."
"You're right, we'll do it."
"OK, just don't interfere with OUR spying/propaganda programs and you can have all the US data for your own purposes."
"Deal."
"You are not allowed to spy on our citizens like that."
"Well, someone has to spy on them."
"You're right, we'll do it."
"OK, just don't interfere with OUR spying/propaganda programs and you can have all the US data for your own purposes."
"Deal."
I worked at Oracle for 5 years. The hate is fully justified.
Honest question: why did you stay so long?
Honestly? They barely asked me to do any work in later years.
A lot of people were just checked out at the office, even management. I mostly collected a paycheck and worked on researching my own projects, so that when I quit, I hit the ground running with a startup.
It helps to know the context. I got wiped out in the dot-com boom of 2000. I needed a safe haven, Oracle was shelter from the storm. I got married, bought a house, had kids, and so for a while I was coasting.
It helps to know the context. I got wiped out in the dot-com boom of 2000. I needed a safe haven, Oracle was shelter from the storm. I got married, bought a house, had kids, and so for a while I was coasting.
Oracle Enterprise TikTok. Licensing experts from Oracle will visit kids and check if they are properly licensed. Multi-core phone owners will pay extra unless their family is on Oracle Premier Support.
If I were Facebook I'd offer to pay for Oracle to buy it. What better way to kill off an upstart social media app popular with young people than to have Oracle run it! Zuck must be thrilled.
This should not be a surprise. If you want to monkey around with the codebase and the algorithm, which company is easier to dupe? Microsoft or Oracle?
Crony capitalism, anyone?
"Oracle co-founder Larry Ellison earlier this year threw a fundraiser at his house for the president. Chief Executive Safra Catz also worked on the executive committee for the Trump transition team in 2016."
"Oracle co-founder Larry Ellison earlier this year threw a fundraiser at his house for the president. Chief Executive Safra Catz also worked on the executive committee for the Trump transition team in 2016."
[deleted]
This reminds me of when Yahoo! bought Tumblr.
"how do you do, fellow kids?"
[deleted]
Hahaha! Has Oracle ever run a B2C product in their existence? Or anything ad supported? Or anything at all that you don't buy with a contract?
I can't see any scenario where this ends well. Reminds me of Dyson's electric car ambitions. Or the time I considered living in a van, I was quite drunk that day.
I can't see any scenario where this ends well. Reminds me of Dyson's electric car ambitions. Or the time I considered living in a van, I was quite drunk that day.
They probably didn't want the app to survive and be competitive in the US. They didn't want a company capable of nurturing it and expanding it to buy it (Microsoft). They were contemplating just killing, at least this way they get a pay out.
serious question: does anyone think this is a good idea? is there an argument that this could be a good thing?
What cloud provider does TikTok use now?
Oracle Cloud? No seriously, that's actually a thing!
I know they use Fastly CDN
They signed $800 million with google cloud a couple of years ago. So probably that with a mix of others
Oracle Cloud Infrastructure it seems to me otherwise what's the point.
This probably means that the CPP will still continue to gather the data, despite this "ownership" change.
Ellison is a big time donor for Donny.
It never was about 'best fit' or "national security'.
It's corruption, clear as day.
https://www.businessinsider.com/oracle-billionaire-larry-ell...
It never was about 'best fit' or "national security'.
It's corruption, clear as day.
https://www.businessinsider.com/oracle-billionaire-larry-ell...
Also very similar to Zoom which also partnered with Oracle and immediately the zoom-is-in-bed-with-the-chinese-communist campaign ended.
Ellison said that Zoom chose Oracle because “we were faster—much faster—and we were much less expensive and we were more secure.” (https://www.barrons.com/articles/oracle-and-tiktok-why-ceo-l...)
I wonder where I heard this speech-pattern before?
I wonder where I heard this speech-pattern before?
It strains credulity to claim with a straight face that Oracle is much less expensive than its competitors.
Given that there are basically only two parties in the US there is a pretty good chance you will find a Trump donor/supporter in every c-suite (and a Biden supporter for that matter).
Don’t need to go full conspiracy for no reason.
Don’t need to go full conspiracy for no reason.
It's not a far out conspiracy theory. TikTok was already going all in with Google Cloud as their tech partner (which is a more obvious choice than Oracle) and was ready to go all in on with Google until Donald reiterated, publicly, his demand that the US "get a cut" of any deal. To Donald, the US "getting a cut" and his friends/himself profiting are likely synonymous. His personal interest and the national interest are the same, in his mind.
The US getting a cut.
Why is mercantilism suddenly mainstream again?
Why is mercantilism suddenly mainstream again?
This is definitely way out on a limb.
That's too complicated, there is no way to know Larry would have ended up with the win like this.
TikTok was banned for 2 reasons:
1) Users on TT ganged together to screw up Trump's GOP convention. This means a) raising vengeful ire of Trump and b) serious implications for material political intervention by a an outside entity. Even though I don't think for a second the CCP had anything to do with it, the risk is materai.
2) National Security Risk. This is not a joke, almost all Chinese companies have 'CCP party apparatus', within the company to make sure they are following the party line, and they will hand over data for whatever purpose at anytime. Imagine having every US politician, Academic, CEO, Investors social medial - that's a lot of compromised individuals and you could compromise the country very quickly.
The reason TT should not be allowed even before 1 and 2 which are more controversial is simply trade - if foreign companies have to jump through hoops to play in China, those same hoops should be applied here tit-for-tat. Just on the basis of fair trade alone.
FYI Trump's bit about 'taking a cut' is just laughable, I honestly think he doesn't understand what 'trade' is, it's like he cannot seem to differentiate between 'his personal business' and anything else. Just like he cannot fathom how nations interact with one another, and sees everything in very personal terms i.e. with Putin, Erdogan etc..
That's too complicated, there is no way to know Larry would have ended up with the win like this.
TikTok was banned for 2 reasons:
1) Users on TT ganged together to screw up Trump's GOP convention. This means a) raising vengeful ire of Trump and b) serious implications for material political intervention by a an outside entity. Even though I don't think for a second the CCP had anything to do with it, the risk is materai.
2) National Security Risk. This is not a joke, almost all Chinese companies have 'CCP party apparatus', within the company to make sure they are following the party line, and they will hand over data for whatever purpose at anytime. Imagine having every US politician, Academic, CEO, Investors social medial - that's a lot of compromised individuals and you could compromise the country very quickly.
The reason TT should not be allowed even before 1 and 2 which are more controversial is simply trade - if foreign companies have to jump through hoops to play in China, those same hoops should be applied here tit-for-tat. Just on the basis of fair trade alone.
FYI Trump's bit about 'taking a cut' is just laughable, I honestly think he doesn't understand what 'trade' is, it's like he cannot seem to differentiate between 'his personal business' and anything else. Just like he cannot fathom how nations interact with one another, and sees everything in very personal terms i.e. with Putin, Erdogan etc..
> TikTok was already going all in
"All in": What is the guarantee that their entire infrastructure will be on Google Cloud? You are assuming a lot about how their backend infrastructure is structured.
> was ready to go all in on with Google until Donald reiterated, publicly, his demand that the US "get a cut" of any deal
Define "all in". For me, all in is when the entire company gets bought out by Google.
> his friends/himself profiting are likely synonymous. His personal interest and the national interest are the same, in his mind.
Again, unsubstantiated claims a.k.a conspiracy theory.
The fact is that his net worth has actually fallen drastically: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-08-14/trump-s-n...
If his motive is enriching himself/friends that should reflect in his/friends net worth.
"All in": What is the guarantee that their entire infrastructure will be on Google Cloud? You are assuming a lot about how their backend infrastructure is structured.
> was ready to go all in on with Google until Donald reiterated, publicly, his demand that the US "get a cut" of any deal
Define "all in". For me, all in is when the entire company gets bought out by Google.
> his friends/himself profiting are likely synonymous. His personal interest and the national interest are the same, in his mind.
Again, unsubstantiated claims a.k.a conspiracy theory.
The fact is that his net worth has actually fallen drastically: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-08-14/trump-s-n...
If his motive is enriching himself/friends that should reflect in his/friends net worth.
Far from a conspiracy theory, Larry Ellison has been very vocal in his support of Trump (and a major donor!), and Safra Catz actually served on the Trump transition team.
> Far from a conspiracy theory, Larry Ellison has been very vocal in his support of Trump (and a major donor!), and Safra Catz actually served on the Trump transition team.
I don't understand. Is being a donor automatically amount to corruption/illegal activity in the United States? I thought corporate donations to political parties were legal in the United States. If it is legal I don't see why the need to construct a conspiracy theory around it?
I don't understand. Is being a donor automatically amount to corruption/illegal activity in the United States? I thought corporate donations to political parties were legal in the United States. If it is legal I don't see why the need to construct a conspiracy theory around it?
European here: donor/lobbying imho is the legalized bribing in the USA. It is annoying some people when I phrase it like this, but hey, people who sit on a big chair tend to want to continue sitting on said chair. And donors' cash helps to that objective. So yes, I don't care if it's Larry or John, or pual, or Ringo, or George, if I pay you money to stay in power, and in exchange I get to benefit from that, you can call it what you want. I call it bribing/kickback/fraud/etc.
Money went from person A to person B. Person B made a decision so only person A profitted. I see a pattern. Don't you?
Money went from person A to person B. Person B made a decision so only person A profitted. I see a pattern. Don't you?
If you only look at cash flows, you'll have to make arbitrary judgement what constitutes bribery and dependence and what does not. For example: are state-funded media companies independent or do they serve the government? What about state-subsidized media companies? What about the German model, where the state sets the height, helps with the collection, but doesn't directly fund the media companies (they're funded via a totally-not-a-tax "fee" that applies to every household, whether it has the ability to consume the media products or not)?
Political donations aren't going to a person, they're going to their campaign, so they can't just pocket the money and write a thank-you-note.
There's also a very benign reading of political donations: you give to a candidate because you expect them to be the best for the country, and what's best for the country is usually good for you as well, ergo you benefit. If there's a stated and clear quid pro quo, it's bribery, but otherwise: meh.
In this case, as far as I understand, it wasn't Trump that made the decision who TikTok would be sold to, he just decided it had to be an American company.
Political donations aren't going to a person, they're going to their campaign, so they can't just pocket the money and write a thank-you-note.
There's also a very benign reading of political donations: you give to a candidate because you expect them to be the best for the country, and what's best for the country is usually good for you as well, ergo you benefit. If there's a stated and clear quid pro quo, it's bribery, but otherwise: meh.
In this case, as far as I understand, it wasn't Trump that made the decision who TikTok would be sold to, he just decided it had to be an American company.
> legalized bribing in the USA
Then that is how it is in the rest of the World. I don't see why USA should be held with a different set of standards when literally all elections fought in every part of the world works through donations (be it corporate or private citizens). Very few countries banned corporate donations and those who did actually made it even worse. Take Brazil for instance: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/12/here-s-what-happened-...
Only the rich could contest elections (as they used their own money). People from lower/middle income strata hardly received any donations.
Banning corporate donations doesn't stop corporates from influencing elections. Corporates can themselves fund and run campaigns on individual issues that concern them and mobilize support with clever messaging.
> Money went from person A to person B. Person B made a decision so only person A profitted. I see a pattern. Don't you?
Yes everyone can see a "pattern" but that doesn't amount to corruption. That amounts to just an allegation. An allegation needs to be established through some legal route where in it is concluded without shred of doubt that the office was misused for helping out someone. Either a money/document/wiretapping trail that can connect the two things. If you cannot establish it then it remains a "conspiracy theory". Nothing more.
Then that is how it is in the rest of the World. I don't see why USA should be held with a different set of standards when literally all elections fought in every part of the world works through donations (be it corporate or private citizens). Very few countries banned corporate donations and those who did actually made it even worse. Take Brazil for instance: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/12/here-s-what-happened-...
Only the rich could contest elections (as they used their own money). People from lower/middle income strata hardly received any donations.
Banning corporate donations doesn't stop corporates from influencing elections. Corporates can themselves fund and run campaigns on individual issues that concern them and mobilize support with clever messaging.
> Money went from person A to person B. Person B made a decision so only person A profitted. I see a pattern. Don't you?
Yes everyone can see a "pattern" but that doesn't amount to corruption. That amounts to just an allegation. An allegation needs to be established through some legal route where in it is concluded without shred of doubt that the office was misused for helping out someone. Either a money/document/wiretapping trail that can connect the two things. If you cannot establish it then it remains a "conspiracy theory". Nothing more.
Rich getting mega-rich, and poor remain in poverty.
If that is an allegation, then I am a conspiracy freak (I am not).
When we speak about USA and you bring Brazil in the discussion (whataboutism), you lower the bar. My "ideal" societies (progress, freedom, respect, and other such 'metrics') do NOT include Brazil, China, Iran, Russia, North Korea, Turkey. Brazil has selected as a ruler a former army general* who enjoys militarisation and is a fan of a dictatorship. I think the discussion ends here. Brazil may be doing 100 other things "good", but "showed that in 2010, about 6 percent of the Brazilian population lived in favelas and other slums" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Favela). 6%? Seriously?
I (-apologies for the bias-) prefer to hold in highest standards the EU, USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and a very few more. Although imperfect, still far better standard of Living than other countries/regiions.
That said, my ideal society is a Star Trek (TNG) one, where everyone contributes how they can, in a balance matter, everyone has free healthcare, everyone has a food replicator and never goes hungry.
*to avoid any misunderstanding, I am a honorable discharged army officer (of my country - NATO member), and I respect the Military-ies and what Military represents (protect the integrity of the land/sea/air)(and do NOT interfere in politics)
Edit: Brazil is a corrupt nation. Perhaps if the haves start caring for the have-nots, and the poverty/inequality is reduced, education is improved, then in 10-20-30 years Brazil will be VERY different to what it is now. These things take time. Moving to a good direction won't take you there tomorrow.
When we speak about USA and you bring Brazil in the discussion (whataboutism), you lower the bar. My "ideal" societies (progress, freedom, respect, and other such 'metrics') do NOT include Brazil, China, Iran, Russia, North Korea, Turkey. Brazil has selected as a ruler a former army general* who enjoys militarisation and is a fan of a dictatorship. I think the discussion ends here. Brazil may be doing 100 other things "good", but "showed that in 2010, about 6 percent of the Brazilian population lived in favelas and other slums" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Favela). 6%? Seriously?
I (-apologies for the bias-) prefer to hold in highest standards the EU, USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and a very few more. Although imperfect, still far better standard of Living than other countries/regiions.
That said, my ideal society is a Star Trek (TNG) one, where everyone contributes how they can, in a balance matter, everyone has free healthcare, everyone has a food replicator and never goes hungry.
*to avoid any misunderstanding, I am a honorable discharged army officer (of my country - NATO member), and I respect the Military-ies and what Military represents (protect the integrity of the land/sea/air)(and do NOT interfere in politics)
Edit: Brazil is a corrupt nation. Perhaps if the haves start caring for the have-nots, and the poverty/inequality is reduced, education is improved, then in 10-20-30 years Brazil will be VERY different to what it is now. These things take time. Moving to a good direction won't take you there tomorrow.
Again, no conspiracy. Conspiracies exist, but this is not it. Everyone involved is very open about what is going on here.
Ellison is open about supporting Trump. To say that Trump has been open about Tiktok is probably an understatement. Oracle has now won a high profile cloud contract they wouldn't have secured otherwise.
They have an obvious shared interest. Pay my back and I'll pat yours.
Ellison is open about supporting Trump. To say that Trump has been open about Tiktok is probably an understatement. Oracle has now won a high profile cloud contract they wouldn't have secured otherwise.
They have an obvious shared interest. Pay my back and I'll pat yours.
These are still conspiracies. Unless you can prove beyond doubt that the office of the President of the United States was misused to benefit Oracle because of the friendship between Trump and Ellison then yes your theory can be proved. That can be through money trail/paper trail/wiretapping. Anything that can establish without doubt that the two have a connection. Innocent until proven guilty. Or did we throw that axiom out the window? Trump was a businessman prior to becoming the US President. It is obvious that he has friends in all places. Else he would never have been able to do any sort of business in the first place.
Does just having support or being a friend with a billionaire amount to corruption? What if Google was the beneficiary of the deal and not Oracle? Or what if Apple was the beneficiary of the deal and not Oracle?
Apple has also benefited from Trump's interventions. "Tim Cook said during an interview with Fox Business that the Trump administration enabled Apple to enter the Indian retail market." [1]
Does this also amount to corruption now?
[1]: https://www.businessinsider.in/tech/news/apple-ceo-tim-cook-...
> They have an obvious shared interest. Pay my back and I'll pat yours.
Even if there was some "obvious" shared interest it helps the US in the end doesn't it? It is not like it is something against USA. So what is the problem here?
Does just having support or being a friend with a billionaire amount to corruption? What if Google was the beneficiary of the deal and not Oracle? Or what if Apple was the beneficiary of the deal and not Oracle?
Apple has also benefited from Trump's interventions. "Tim Cook said during an interview with Fox Business that the Trump administration enabled Apple to enter the Indian retail market." [1]
Does this also amount to corruption now?
[1]: https://www.businessinsider.in/tech/news/apple-ceo-tim-cook-...
> They have an obvious shared interest. Pay my back and I'll pat yours.
Even if there was some "obvious" shared interest it helps the US in the end doesn't it? It is not like it is something against USA. So what is the problem here?
Conspiracy theory differs from conspiracy "theory" in what clues you have, without needing concrete, legal evidence that could result in a court decision. In the sense you say it, NSA mega-surveillance was just a "conspiracy theory" before Snowden blew the whistle. If one has IQ over 20, it was obviously not a "theory", despite the fact no court-ready evidence was available. So instead of a blanket statement that every case where no concrete legal evidence exists is equally false, each conspiracy case shall be treated separately. A person with personal ties with Trump getting a direct deal from a Trump driven decision has more basis of corruption and personal relations involvement than Tim saying the government policy eased their entrance to India.
> Snowden blew the whistle
By revealing incriminating evidence. Until then yes it was a conspiracy theory. Snowden did not just "say" that there was mega-surveillance. He actually revealed intricate details of how surveillance is carried out. Even though I disagree with how he revealed secret information, I still believe him because he produced evidence. He literally was in the know how of what happened and why it happened.
> So instead of a blanket statement that every case where no concrete legal evidence exists is equally false, each conspiracy case shall be treated separately.
I am not saying it is false. A conspiracy doesn't amount to falsity. The definition itself states: "Conspiracy theory, an attempt to explain harmful or tragic events as the result of the actions of a small, powerful group". That is it. It doesn't talk about the nature of the event/result of actions. I don't know why you think I am saying that it never happened. I am saying that these are allegations which haven't been proved yet.
> A person with personal ties with Trump getting a direct deal from a Trump driven decision has more basis of corruption and personal relations involvement than Tim saying the government policy eased their entrance to India.
You can say that about any US President then. Every single US President was well connected in some way or the other. How do you think Obama got his Nobel Peace Prize then? That too within 1 year into his office with literally nothing to back it. Was there some form of corruption between Obama and the Nobel Committee? There, I just created a conspiracy theory for you to ponder upon. Now what stops anyone from connecting anything and saying that there must be a reason for why something happened? Nothing! That is why you have Courts which can decide, with a high degree of certainty, that the allegations are true or false.
By revealing incriminating evidence. Until then yes it was a conspiracy theory. Snowden did not just "say" that there was mega-surveillance. He actually revealed intricate details of how surveillance is carried out. Even though I disagree with how he revealed secret information, I still believe him because he produced evidence. He literally was in the know how of what happened and why it happened.
> So instead of a blanket statement that every case where no concrete legal evidence exists is equally false, each conspiracy case shall be treated separately.
I am not saying it is false. A conspiracy doesn't amount to falsity. The definition itself states: "Conspiracy theory, an attempt to explain harmful or tragic events as the result of the actions of a small, powerful group". That is it. It doesn't talk about the nature of the event/result of actions. I don't know why you think I am saying that it never happened. I am saying that these are allegations which haven't been proved yet.
> A person with personal ties with Trump getting a direct deal from a Trump driven decision has more basis of corruption and personal relations involvement than Tim saying the government policy eased their entrance to India.
You can say that about any US President then. Every single US President was well connected in some way or the other. How do you think Obama got his Nobel Peace Prize then? That too within 1 year into his office with literally nothing to back it. Was there some form of corruption between Obama and the Nobel Committee? There, I just created a conspiracy theory for you to ponder upon. Now what stops anyone from connecting anything and saying that there must be a reason for why something happened? Nothing! That is why you have Courts which can decide, with a high degree of certainty, that the allegations are true or false.
Safra Catz is relatively close to the Trump administration.
not strange
- TikTok ruined Trumps rally
- Facebook is threatened by TikTok growth in US
- Zuck testifies before congress, pointing fingers at China and companies like TikTok
- Zuck met Trump, shaked hands under the table
- Trump asks TikTok to sell
- to Oracle.... best US company to curb TikTok growth
- Facebook does nothing about Trump posts
- Profit for Trump, less competitor for Zuck
- Things probably staged. What is one reason TikTok "chooses" Oracle over Microsoft?
edit: formatting
- TikTok ruined Trumps rally
- Facebook is threatened by TikTok growth in US
- Zuck testifies before congress, pointing fingers at China and companies like TikTok
- Zuck met Trump, shaked hands under the table
- Trump asks TikTok to sell
- to Oracle.... best US company to curb TikTok growth
- Facebook does nothing about Trump posts
- Profit for Trump, less competitor for Zuck
- Things probably staged. What is one reason TikTok "chooses" Oracle over Microsoft?
edit: formatting
I’m sure Trump is thrilled about this since Larry Ellison is a Trump supporter who fund raises for him.
Trump probably okayed the deal, or made it happen.
Now Tiktok has to please not one but two authoritarian governments.
Now Tiktok has to please not one but two authoritarian governments.
Any chance that Biden will reverse it if he gains office? Seems anti-competitive if they didn't prove sending data back to China
A win for all the conservatives on TikTok. Larry is a big Trump supporter.
TikTok Enterprise (tm)
Oracle Funny-Clock-Sound Personal Video Suite for Youth Management (Single-Core License)
[deleted]
- Bytedance retains some ownership and control of the app and the algorithms
- Oracle runs the entire back end on their infrastructure
- Oracle guarantees to the US government that no data is going back to China (because they control the release of the app and control the back end)
- This satisfies the USA's (supposed) national security concerns and also satisfies China because TikTok is not actually being "sold" to a US company.