Victims of school bullying are at a higher risk of developing violent behavior(uco.es)
uco.es
Victims of school bullying are at a higher risk of developing violent behavior
https://www.uco.es/ucci/es/noticias-ingles/item/3138-victims-of-school-bullying-are-at-a-higher-risk-of-developing-violent-behavior-in-the-future
158 comments
There is something to be said for when people identify as victims, they don't hold themselves to the standards of the society they perceive as having produced their bullies. The reasonable ones act out against it, as you get with kids in schools who reject representations of authority from a society they are raised to identify as outside of, and they still get punished for disrupting it. The unreasonable ones use it as self-permission to be cruel, abusive, or even less-human to others.
The idea that you can be elevated and even purified by your own anger is probably the most seductive idea of all. I'd posit there is almost no direct brutality committed by anyone who doesn't first think of themselves as a victim, and the person they commit it on is a symbol of their perceived bully.
The idea that you can be elevated and even purified by your own anger is probably the most seductive idea of all. I'd posit there is almost no direct brutality committed by anyone who doesn't first think of themselves as a victim, and the person they commit it on is a symbol of their perceived bully.
Is your supposition that abuse fosters anti-authoritarianism?
If so, I think what doesn't clearly fit is this: Lasting suspicion of authority tends to be born from logic. However, abuse breaks judgment.
It could be that the process of overcoming victimhood makes one more skeptical of authority.
If so, I think what doesn't clearly fit is this: Lasting suspicion of authority tends to be born from logic. However, abuse breaks judgment.
It could be that the process of overcoming victimhood makes one more skeptical of authority.
The supposition is that people become authoritarians because they perceive themselves as victims, as a consequence of the origin of every act of discretionary cruelty being from the shame of the perpetrator. Believing that someone "deserves," for you to be evil is just a straight psychological hustle to persuade you to be evil. It's almost the essential, universal deception. A bit philosophical for a comment, but toward understanding the dynamics behind the article with an example moral consequence of what it asserts, it seemed worth adding.
I was a victim of school bullying and it haunts me in my adulthood. I cannot shake of the feeling of helplessness and seething anger. I have become a person who lashes out at my workplace and home when things become unbearable.
Is there a way to deal with this?
Is there a way to deal with this?
Are you getting therapy?
no joke, but have you been to therapy? What you need is to come to grips with the fact that you were bullied, the why, the what, what made you a target, that you realize it wasn't something of your fault but the bullies own insecurities. The anger and lashing out is really a deep hurt you need to address.
The pandemic has caused every therapist in my immediate area to be overloaded. Someone I know said she was lucky to be able to get a single appointment with a waiting time of a month. Six of them did not return my emails outright, and when I finally managed to schedule something, I had to wait a quarter of a year just to be able to have the intake appointment. Everyone keeps saying that therapy becomes the most valuable once you've established a relationship with the therapist, so I am not seeing how this will help. But I'm not sure what anyone can do. Nobody could have prevented this, there are only so many therapists in my area, and there are only so many people they can consult with at a time.
At the point that therapy becomes far less effective because too many people want it, what is left to do? Say "tough luck, but you have to be patient?" In the three months I've ended up waiting in between I feel like I've been spiraling or trapped in a shell with nobody that will listen to my problems. The friends I usually rely on have long since gotten tired of listening to me, because it isn't their job to do so, and I feel as if our relationships will not be the same going forward because I could not get help elsewhere fast enough.
I may have other problems managing my executive function, or false convictions that I do, and either way my attention is constantly taken away by trivial things. I couldn't even focus on the MOOC homework I was taking even though I felt terrible for putting it off. But in order to even try and see if stimulants will help, I have to get an appointment - and I still have another month to wait for it.
Our pleas for help are being swallowed up, and there seems to be no real recourse.
At the point that therapy becomes far less effective because too many people want it, what is left to do? Say "tough luck, but you have to be patient?" In the three months I've ended up waiting in between I feel like I've been spiraling or trapped in a shell with nobody that will listen to my problems. The friends I usually rely on have long since gotten tired of listening to me, because it isn't their job to do so, and I feel as if our relationships will not be the same going forward because I could not get help elsewhere fast enough.
I may have other problems managing my executive function, or false convictions that I do, and either way my attention is constantly taken away by trivial things. I couldn't even focus on the MOOC homework I was taking even though I felt terrible for putting it off. But in order to even try and see if stimulants will help, I have to get an appointment - and I still have another month to wait for it.
Our pleas for help are being swallowed up, and there seems to be no real recourse.
Therapy doesn't have to come from a professional therapist...
There are professional therapists that can practice therapy.
There are alternative therapists that can practice therapy.
There are solo actions one can do that can practice therapy.
You need to broaden your definition of therapy to include things that bring you joy and happiness. Some folks have found a mushroom walk with friends to be extremely therapeutic. Others, going on an eat-pray-love style backpacking trip to reconnect with self. In your case, you have some trauma, like I did. Find someone with an enormous amount of empathy and open up to them like Barbara Walters.
I found talking to a therapist to be helpful.
Everyone else said therapy, i'm going to recommend a specific therapy.
If you can find a therapist offering Cognitive Behaviour Therapy.
https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-cognitive-behavior-ther...
Or just even if you yourself looked into it and started practicing the techniques.
Honestly, I feel like it's something anyone and everyone can benefit from, but especially people looking to change a pattern of behaviour they're unhappy with.
If you can find a therapist offering Cognitive Behaviour Therapy.
https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-cognitive-behavior-ther...
Or just even if you yourself looked into it and started practicing the techniques.
Honestly, I feel like it's something anyone and everyone can benefit from, but especially people looking to change a pattern of behaviour they're unhappy with.
Because therapy isn't in reach of everyone, my method of handling this scenario was this:
My challenge was that I was disconnected from the consequences of lashing out. I had to create a strong sense of empathy with those I was lashing out at. I did this by visualizing being on the receiving end (lots of exp to draw on) of my own mistreatment.
I did this for an hour or so most nights (usually with the bath running so no one could hear the sobbing). It took well over a year for a better state to settle in.
My challenge was that I was disconnected from the consequences of lashing out. I had to create a strong sense of empathy with those I was lashing out at. I did this by visualizing being on the receiving end (lots of exp to draw on) of my own mistreatment.
I did this for an hour or so most nights (usually with the bath running so no one could hear the sobbing). It took well over a year for a better state to settle in.
As others have suggested finding a good therapist is a great first step. Specifically when it comes to early childhood trauma it might help to find a therapist trained in EMDR which is a technique that focuses on helping you overcome this behavior that feels natural.
Something to note: you may not get along with your first therapist, it's honestly very similar to any personal relationship you have, if that's the case, it's totally fine to let them know it's not working out and find someone else. BUT: don't make that decision after your first meeting, especially if you've never tried therapy before you're gonna find it weird and off putting, if you can power through that and you still find you're not gelling with the therapist that's when it's ok to pull the plug.
Something to note: you may not get along with your first therapist, it's honestly very similar to any personal relationship you have, if that's the case, it's totally fine to let them know it's not working out and find someone else. BUT: don't make that decision after your first meeting, especially if you've never tried therapy before you're gonna find it weird and off putting, if you can power through that and you still find you're not gelling with the therapist that's when it's ok to pull the plug.
Without knowing more, and without really broaching the therapy angle, have you considered tackling it from a long-term axis view?
Learn no-gi jiu jitsu and tame that fear down; there’s some research that both journaling and (less so) efficacy can have physiological effects such as reductions in blood pressure, lowering of skin temp/sweat/conductivity and improvements in immune resistance.
Obviously getting the lowest jiu jitsu belt will take you one to two years so not ideal...but....maybe on top of counseling it is positive ROI based on how severe your symptoms are.
Learn no-gi jiu jitsu and tame that fear down; there’s some research that both journaling and (less so) efficacy can have physiological effects such as reductions in blood pressure, lowering of skin temp/sweat/conductivity and improvements in immune resistance.
Obviously getting the lowest jiu jitsu belt will take you one to two years so not ideal...but....maybe on top of counseling it is positive ROI based on how severe your symptoms are.
Physical strength ? maybe it reduces the sense of helplessness, but these things are hard to erase when they 're encoded in early age.
(I think mass schooling has normalized bullying in people's lives for centuries)
(I think mass schooling has normalized bullying in people's lives for centuries)
Sucks what you went through, mate. The best revenge is living well - you have to let it go.
I would also echo what some of the other people have said about strength training or a martial art. You might get some peace from knowing that you can't change the past, but what happened to you won't recur. You'd be surprised at the number of bodybuilder, powerlifters, martial artists etc that talk about starting their sport after being bullied.
I would also echo what some of the other people have said about strength training or a martial art. You might get some peace from knowing that you can't change the past, but what happened to you won't recur. You'd be surprised at the number of bodybuilder, powerlifters, martial artists etc that talk about starting their sport after being bullied.
In my case, the empowerment I got from martial arts rested along side of helplessness, rather than ease it. I do grant that shifting between empowerment and helplessness is better than just feeling helpless.
Remember that the other product of abuse is broken judgment.
On a side note there were always guys in my martial arts classes who were there to learn the skills that would help them bully more effectively.
Remember that the other product of abuse is broken judgment.
On a side note there were always guys in my martial arts classes who were there to learn the skills that would help them bully more effectively.
It's not impossible that you get bullies in a martial arts class, but unless they're the instructor there is normally someone better than them that will spot it and put a stop to it (in my experience anyway).
Conscientious instructors certainly stop in-class mistreatment of other students. However instructors don't know the full measure of a student's heart; nor do they hear most chatter among students.
In my experience, it's not at all uncommon for bullies to use martial arts classes to prepare them for positions of authority - particularly law enforcement.
To be clear, this doesn't throw the least bit of shade on martial arts nor does it implicate instructors in any way. It's just an unfortunate reality.
Also, I really believe the better opportunities to address bullies are before and after this point.
In my experience, it's not at all uncommon for bullies to use martial arts classes to prepare them for positions of authority - particularly law enforcement.
To be clear, this doesn't throw the least bit of shade on martial arts nor does it implicate instructors in any way. It's just an unfortunate reality.
Also, I really believe the better opportunities to address bullies are before and after this point.
Read Alice Miller+s books.
Eg:
The Drama of the Gifted Child
The Body Never Lies: The Lingering Effects of Hurtful Parenting
I too got bullied in school. In high school I started practicing martial arts and also got on the hs wrestling team. What helped for me was that I gained confidence that if I was in another situation, I would be able to handle it. Another benefit being the physical training and the benefit to my appearance. As I became more fit, people were less apt to try bullying me.
Also, I came from a generation where most parents believed in "spare the rod and spoil the child". So, I learned from an early age that it was ok for adults to beat the tar out of you - and you weren't supposed to fight back.
I also suffered from the anxiety, and probably some ptsd. But through martial arts I got it under control and as I said, the confidence of knowing that I'd be able to fight back or defend myself goes a long way.
Also, I came from a generation where most parents believed in "spare the rod and spoil the child". So, I learned from an early age that it was ok for adults to beat the tar out of you - and you weren't supposed to fight back.
I also suffered from the anxiety, and probably some ptsd. But through martial arts I got it under control and as I said, the confidence of knowing that I'd be able to fight back or defend myself goes a long way.
A bunch of us meet on Twitter at #PTSDChat, every Wed at 9 EST. We discuss stuff exactly like this, occasionally with behavior professionals.
Many many years ago I was bullied at school (and almost killed). But I was fortunate to get help from a roommate at college: he helped me to learn karate.
This changed me in many ways, including seeing my situation in an "objective way" instead of feeling offended.
[deleted]
Yet another reason why homeschooling is a good idea.
This. School causes bullying.
And teacher are sometimes legit bullies.
Short version of a long tale: this is sad but true in some cases. I had to go with my sister as backup after her kid came home in tears because a teacher called the child "ugly" and said "I don't want to look at your face".
Whether or not they said it we'll never know, only going off of what her kid told us and said teacher denying it, but the teacher was fired months later after an investigation launched from other poor behavior on their part-reported to the school by several other parents, so there's weight to the kid's claims.
Whether or not they said it we'll never know, only going off of what her kid told us and said teacher denying it, but the teacher was fired months later after an investigation launched from other poor behavior on their part-reported to the school by several other parents, so there's weight to the kid's claims.
What do you mean by "legit bullies"? That is, do you mean
-"teachers sometimes bully students." or
- "teachers are allowed to bully students." or
- something else.
-"teachers sometimes bully students." or
- "teachers are allowed to bully students." or
- something else.
The first.
OK. No doubt. I am glad you brought this up.
I've never been bullied by a peer or near-peer. That is, I was never in a situation that I could not handle. In my entire life I've only seen one case where another child was bullied by older boys and I knew that was bad.
BUT when you mentioned teachers, I thought of a middle-and-high school teacher/coach who held a grudge for reasons unknown. In response I skated by in his freshman biology class and, in general, wouldn't give him the time of day.
So yes, teachers can indeed act like bullies. But I think most people don't think of bullying per se as being something teachers or other authority figures do but instead something that one's peers or near-age peers do.
I've never been bullied by a peer or near-peer. That is, I was never in a situation that I could not handle. In my entire life I've only seen one case where another child was bullied by older boys and I knew that was bad.
BUT when you mentioned teachers, I thought of a middle-and-high school teacher/coach who held a grudge for reasons unknown. In response I skated by in his freshman biology class and, in general, wouldn't give him the time of day.
So yes, teachers can indeed act like bullies. But I think most people don't think of bullying per se as being something teachers or other authority figures do but instead something that one's peers or near-age peers do.
That’s true because of how school bullying is typically defined.
But of course if coaches etc get away with it, they are setting an example that some students will follow.
This is one of several ways in which school causes bullying.
But of course if coaches etc get away with it, they are setting an example that some students will follow.
This is one of several ways in which school causes bullying.
Yes but they're few (source: 5 kids, 1 district).
The worst example I can think of is one teacher who's poor judgment resulted in decisions that were indistinguishable from abuse.
The worst example I can think of is one teacher who's poor judgment resulted in decisions that were indistinguishable from abuse.
That's like saying roads cause traffic deaths or office buildings cause sexual harassment.
Particular environments encourage different behavious in people. A lot of people in jail do things they wouldn't outside.
You don't think it might be a bit hyperbolic to make the generalization that schools in general cause bullying? What is it about schools that are different from other gatherings? Is it every school at every age in every country?
Do you think that the school might just be present in the equation and that this is a lazy and naive conclusion from a single correlation with no nuance or control statistics?
Do you think that the school might just be present in the equation and that this is a lazy and naive conclusion from a single correlation with no nuance or control statistics?
I offer that it's the reliable occurrence of a gathering that presents opportunities for bullies to shape their craft. That the gathering is a school seems like a minimal factor.
> What is it about schools that are different from other gatherings?
They leave large groups of children unsupervised for up to an hour at a time.
It should be obvious to any parent or anyone who’s had much to do with children what’s going to happen.
They leave large groups of children unsupervised for up to an hour at a time.
It should be obvious to any parent or anyone who’s had much to do with children what’s going to happen.
Plus the forced into the same location dynamics - guess where we also see that? Prison. If you defined the school system behavior using prison system behavior it is hard to find anything present in schools not essentially present in prison. Graduation/release, lipservice of "development of skills" when they really worry about socialization the most.... Seriously could someone find anything that proves school isn't a subset of prison in its behaviors instead of just how people treat it?
Nonsense, as a kid I was bullied outside of school much more than in school.
> They filled out two questionnaires, one in June 2017 and one in June 2018.
I wish psychology would move beyond these lazy methods. Perhaps use school records with documented evidence of bullying by a third party or something. such studies based on subjective evaluations are blended with the behavioral and character traits of each participant
I wish psychology would move beyond these lazy methods. Perhaps use school records with documented evidence of bullying by a third party or something. such studies based on subjective evaluations are blended with the behavioral and character traits of each participant
What are the chances that a kid who has had his/her lunch money stolen by the school bully is documented in an official school record? I'm sure it depends on the school, but based on personal recollection of schoolyard threats received, I'd say bullying incidents are hugely underreported and possibly not recorded even when reported.
It's still a valid point that self-reporting is not really a very scientific measurement for everything out there.
It’s an even more valid point that bullying should be taken much more seriously and societal institutions to remediate it out in place - more scientific means of measurement would be just a paper thin start.
I think in anonymous polling you'd find the results to be much more accurate than school records. Schools have awful track records of enabling bullies with things like "zero-tolerance" and the like.
Self reporting has know problems, and some mitigations.
Relying on institutional records with active counter incentives for accuracy and/or completeness is also problematic, probably more so.
Relying on institutional records with active counter incentives for accuracy and/or completeness is also problematic, probably more so.
Self-reporting is a perfectly reasonable kind of measurement.
It has some error margin and bias that must be corrected, just like any kind of measurement.
It measures some things better than others, just like any kind of measurement.
It must be applied with a serious and conscious understanding of its limitations, just like any kind of measurement.
The underlying fact is that social sciences are hard. And science reporting sucks even for the easy stuff. Society would lose a lot if social scientists just placed a universal block on self-reported data, but maybe we would gain if journalists did it.
It has some error margin and bias that must be corrected, just like any kind of measurement.
It measures some things better than others, just like any kind of measurement.
It must be applied with a serious and conscious understanding of its limitations, just like any kind of measurement.
The underlying fact is that social sciences are hard. And science reporting sucks even for the easy stuff. Society would lose a lot if social scientists just placed a universal block on self-reported data, but maybe we would gain if journalists did it.
I'd imagine most bullying isn't reported or documented in any way.
For this subject, it wouldn't work. Why do you think these kids act out with violence?
Bullies are highly manipulative and work the system. Constant, low-level harassment makes the victim a squeaky wheel that the local authorities ignore, or even makes the authority figures appear to the victim as working with the bully. Undermining trust in the system is part of how bullies operate in general.
I was systematically bullied in grades 3-4 by a group of about a half-dozen classmates in a NYC Public School. I never struck and rarely spoke up -- in fact I was terrified to go to school, and would invent illnesses or hide in the bathroom to avoid lunch. Guess who had a disciplinary record? Me. One time I literally ambushed -- a kid jumped on me from on top of an iron fence and beat me with a metal bar. 2 "witnesses" said I attacked him and I was suspended. My parents were called to some bureaucrat's office and threatened them with expulsion. They don't like squeaky wheels.
I was fortunate that a science teacher took notice and was skeptical. He took me under his wing, arranged for me to eat lunch in the science room, and did something to get those kids away from me. In some ways, he saved my life and I am eternally grateful for that man caring enough and sticking his head up to do the right thing when he didn't have to.
Bullies are highly manipulative and work the system. Constant, low-level harassment makes the victim a squeaky wheel that the local authorities ignore, or even makes the authority figures appear to the victim as working with the bully. Undermining trust in the system is part of how bullies operate in general.
I was systematically bullied in grades 3-4 by a group of about a half-dozen classmates in a NYC Public School. I never struck and rarely spoke up -- in fact I was terrified to go to school, and would invent illnesses or hide in the bathroom to avoid lunch. Guess who had a disciplinary record? Me. One time I literally ambushed -- a kid jumped on me from on top of an iron fence and beat me with a metal bar. 2 "witnesses" said I attacked him and I was suspended. My parents were called to some bureaucrat's office and threatened them with expulsion. They don't like squeaky wheels.
I was fortunate that a science teacher took notice and was skeptical. He took me under his wing, arranged for me to eat lunch in the science room, and did something to get those kids away from me. In some ways, he saved my life and I am eternally grateful for that man caring enough and sticking his head up to do the right thing when he didn't have to.
> Perhaps use school records with documented evidence of bullying by a third party or something.
That's actually less likely to be an accurate source, because it depends on the school documenting everything, which to be quite honest, a lot of schools do not do -- I remember when I was bullied it was a literal uphill battle with the school to get them to recognize it in the first place, let alone do anything about it.
How much of the bullying you saw in school, was documented by a third party? I would wager zero, but I'm up for being surprised.
Psychology has a bag of tools, questionnaires are useful tools that fit a specific purpose and objective. They are relatively simple to create, perform, and get a lot of reasonably accurate data from them.
And after all, what they're trying to assess here is the impact of bullying, so it doesn't actually matter what the exact bullying act is, in this case. They're simply trying to find a causal link between being bullied and negative behaviour.
I think it's always amusing when people on hacker news think they know more about fields than, you know, people who have spent decades studying and working in that field. It says a lot about this website that it attracts folk who have no respect for other professions.
That's actually less likely to be an accurate source, because it depends on the school documenting everything, which to be quite honest, a lot of schools do not do -- I remember when I was bullied it was a literal uphill battle with the school to get them to recognize it in the first place, let alone do anything about it.
How much of the bullying you saw in school, was documented by a third party? I would wager zero, but I'm up for being surprised.
Psychology has a bag of tools, questionnaires are useful tools that fit a specific purpose and objective. They are relatively simple to create, perform, and get a lot of reasonably accurate data from them.
And after all, what they're trying to assess here is the impact of bullying, so it doesn't actually matter what the exact bullying act is, in this case. They're simply trying to find a causal link between being bullied and negative behaviour.
I think it's always amusing when people on hacker news think they know more about fields than, you know, people who have spent decades studying and working in that field. It says a lot about this website that it attracts folk who have no respect for other professions.
You'd have to be very familiar with the way authorities perpetuate abuse and protect the abuser before you start down that road.
Who ends up in detention, suspended from school or sent home? The victim. The abuser will have a sob story to tell, will claim their victim "started it", and then through various effects such as the Othello error the authorities will come to view the victim as the person who needs behavioural adjustment.
How do you determine the "behavioural and character traits" of someone you don't know?
You're asking an awful lot of a science you don't understand, in a field of social interaction you are clearly not familiar with.
Who ends up in detention, suspended from school or sent home? The victim. The abuser will have a sob story to tell, will claim their victim "started it", and then through various effects such as the Othello error the authorities will come to view the victim as the person who needs behavioural adjustment.
How do you determine the "behavioural and character traits" of someone you don't know?
You're asking an awful lot of a science you don't understand, in a field of social interaction you are clearly not familiar with.
I was a victim but never really went out of boundary although sometimes it triggers so hard to be violent. This behavior also gives you a positive effect of being extremely patient at times because you know you have seen it all.
I was hazed/ragged when I joined college and it was bad. It has been nearly 15 years since I finished college but it still haunts me. Anxiety strikes at any moment, there are some days I just cannot leave the house and I lash out at people when people question me if I feel trapped. I have missed so many opportunities because of it.
It all started with that hazing and it has never gone away. It is something I would not wish on my worst enemy
It all started with that hazing and it has never gone away. It is something I would not wish on my worst enemy
Yep-for me the worst came around in “junior high” ie when I was 10-13. I fight those demons every single moment of every day and I’ll start my fifth decade on earth in a few years. I wish people cared about this to stop it.
Don't know if you've done this but I would highly recommend therapy.
I was bullied severely in junior high, and I didn't start seeing a therapist (for other reasons) until I was 35. By that time I thought I was totally "over" my bullying, if anything I felt shame that something that happened so long ago that I thought was behind me could have such a strong hold on my current behavior. Therapy has helped me immensely, and while I realize that talk therapy results are highly dependent on individual therapist and patient, my biggest regret is that I didn't start sooner.
I was bullied severely in junior high, and I didn't start seeing a therapist (for other reasons) until I was 35. By that time I thought I was totally "over" my bullying, if anything I felt shame that something that happened so long ago that I thought was behind me could have such a strong hold on my current behavior. Therapy has helped me immensely, and while I realize that talk therapy results are highly dependent on individual therapist and patient, my biggest regret is that I didn't start sooner.
Also EMDR.
Have you used this technique for bullying? Was it effective? Would you mind sharing your experiences?
This thread has made me consider getting therapy.
This thread has made me consider getting therapy.
I'll give you my experience as someone who is literally just starting EMDR for bullying. I obviously don't have much to say about its overall efficacy yet, but I will say why I'm hopeful.
One of the initial steps in the process is to think about specific scenarios when you suffered a traumatic event (in my case, bullying) to bring up a physical, emotional response. In my case, even though this happened ~30 years ago, it's not hard for me get into the memory, to feel the same fear response and to start crying. The idea behind EMDR is to essentially "reprogram" you body's physical and neurological responses so that the memory no longer brings up the fearful/depressed automatic nervous system response.
Now, there is a lot of debate over the effectiveness of EMDR, but in my research it seemed most of the debate was really over whether you get just as much benefit doing everything except the eye movements. From my personal perspective, I honestly don't really care that much if the eye movements are the primary factor, but I will say that having to focus on something physical does feel more relaxing to me than just "normal" talk therapy about these experiences in the past. I'm really hopeful that, at least for now, it feels different, in a positive way, than what I've tried in the past.
Whatever you end up deciding, good luck!
One of the initial steps in the process is to think about specific scenarios when you suffered a traumatic event (in my case, bullying) to bring up a physical, emotional response. In my case, even though this happened ~30 years ago, it's not hard for me get into the memory, to feel the same fear response and to start crying. The idea behind EMDR is to essentially "reprogram" you body's physical and neurological responses so that the memory no longer brings up the fearful/depressed automatic nervous system response.
Now, there is a lot of debate over the effectiveness of EMDR, but in my research it seemed most of the debate was really over whether you get just as much benefit doing everything except the eye movements. From my personal perspective, I honestly don't really care that much if the eye movements are the primary factor, but I will say that having to focus on something physical does feel more relaxing to me than just "normal" talk therapy about these experiences in the past. I'm really hopeful that, at least for now, it feels different, in a positive way, than what I've tried in the past.
Whatever you end up deciding, good luck!
My experience with EMDR has been that it makes you utterly feel like a child again. You are still an adult, but emotionally it feels like travelling back in time. Like being a child in an adult's body. Much more than just thinking or talking about the experiences themselves. It brought up a lot of crying. It felt a bit like catching up on it, because I never felt safe to cry as a child. And with this I couldn't even hold it back and it all just came out. I like the way Bessel van der Kolk describes it in his book [0]. It is like the trauma stops being something that still haunts you today and that you can still feel like no time has passed, and instead it turns into a memory and something that happened in the past and that doesn't affect you anymore. It almost felt like magic, because it lifted a huge burden seemingly effortlessly. And that was after ~5 years of regular psychotherapy. It doesn't fix everything, but it made parts of the trauma pretty much disappear.
And yes, I would very much recommend therapy in general. Here are some thoughts on this from a discussion a few months ago [1]. There are lots of good points in that Ask HN in general.
[0] If you like somewhat technical books I can recommend The Body Keeps The Score [0]. Very much not a self-help book but the observations of someone working with people's traumas.
https://www.besselvanderkolk.com/resources/the-body-keeps-th...
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22261226
And yes, I would very much recommend therapy in general. Here are some thoughts on this from a discussion a few months ago [1]. There are lots of good points in that Ask HN in general.
[0] If you like somewhat technical books I can recommend The Body Keeps The Score [0]. Very much not a self-help book but the observations of someone working with people's traumas.
https://www.besselvanderkolk.com/resources/the-body-keeps-th...
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22261226
I'm still wondering when you can therapy yourself with games and the like.
I'm having trouble finding conclusive details from the article that could rule out that the "violent behavior" shown later in life is just a resistance to authority that have been fostered by distrust. (and miss classified as violence by the surrounding)
I know a couple of people that have been bullied but haven't seen much violent behavior from them, but they in general are very uncooperative with any authority (police, social services) and have a pretty low trust in the system
I know a couple of people that have been bullied but haven't seen much violent behavior from them, but they in general are very uncooperative with any authority (police, social services) and have a pretty low trust in the system
> I know a couple of people that have been bullied but haven't seen much violent behavior from them, but they in general are very uncooperative with any authority (police, social services) and have a pretty low trust in the system
Most likely because whatever system was supposed to protect them, failed to do so. Schools like government are authoritarian structured institutions, they're just another "system". In a sense, schools condition children to be obedient to authority preparing them for life in a society with a government and rules. If they cant trust that system then are they supposed to trust the system they are being conditioned for?
This is the same feeling of mistrust that evolves in minority groups who are bullied/oppressed (same thing really.)
Most likely because whatever system was supposed to protect them, failed to do so. Schools like government are authoritarian structured institutions, they're just another "system". In a sense, schools condition children to be obedient to authority preparing them for life in a society with a government and rules. If they cant trust that system then are they supposed to trust the system they are being conditioned for?
This is the same feeling of mistrust that evolves in minority groups who are bullied/oppressed (same thing really.)
same thing really
Good luck to you if you ever say that out loud, but I do think that bullying victims are at least somewhat better equipped than the average person to empathize with victims of other types of discrimination.
Good luck to you if you ever say that out loud, but I do think that bullying victims are at least somewhat better equipped than the average person to empathize with victims of other types of discrimination.
That seems pretty logical.
IIRC often the process of grooming people who commit torture or engage in violence ... to actually do that to them in the first place. This seems common in both governmental groups and criminal organizations.
IIRC often the process of grooming people who commit torture or engage in violence ... to actually do that to them in the first place. This seems common in both governmental groups and criminal organizations.
I also read that the bullies themselves have a higher chance of success in their lifes than the rest of the population.
What kind of impact one makes depends a lot on where one lands.
I look forward to the day when this is no longer the case. But we need to get better at punishing bullying behaviour to make this happen.
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Maybe true, or maybe not. The way this research described it can only be used to suggest a hypothesis. Making hard claims without hard evidence is (self)misleading and is one of major reasons why psychology is in trouble.
As human beings we have complete, internal access to the sort of subject that the study is targeting - human beings.
That gives us a pretty solid opportunity to verify the suppositions for ourselves.
That gives us a pretty solid opportunity to verify the suppositions for ourselves.
Then why perform such studies if we all inherently know the results, just by the nature of being human and being able to introspect?
Because one human does not contain all nuances.
One human being does, however, contain core processes (reactions, motivations) and we can use those to help evaluate the study's findings.
One human being does, however, contain core processes (reactions, motivations) and we can use those to help evaluate the study's findings.
This road doesn't lead anywhere. Understanding of human behavior is not freely flowing from access to human beings. Which btw is certainly not complete, and not that much internal as humans often cannot clearly see reasons of their actions, and ask for help from other people. Extracting knowledge from access requires serious discipline in finding of causative relations which studies like this tend to ignore. It makes them worse then meaningless because they produce pleasant illusion of understanding from what is essentially guesses.
I've read that thru a few times and I can't see it as other than a glob of generalizations.
Perhaps you could plug some of the topics of the study into it (eg: the mistreatment/violence cycle). That could help me see how it relates.
Perhaps you could plug some of the topics of the study into it (eg: the mistreatment/violence cycle). That could help me see how it relates.
Not sure what you asking for. It's not about the topics, it's about methods of research. One cannot take a group of one Spanish region students (no mentions on how it was selected btw which suggest nobody cared), find a correlation between self-reported (hugely unreliable especially when it's kids reporting to adults) behavior within 1 year, and make essentially all-encompassing claim that causation is established.
The thing I think gets lost is people just assume the school system is natural, and in terms of human evolution its the newest thing, it got created for industrial efficiency. Kids used to be raised by all of society and now they're effectively raised by each other. Bullying is a huge problem but its largely because kids raise each other.
If you were to strait up ask do I want my neighbors 9 year old to be the most influential person in my kids growth the answer would be obviously no, but thats essentially where were at for efficiency
If you were to strait up ask do I want my neighbors 9 year old to be the most influential person in my kids growth the answer would be obviously no, but thats essentially where were at for efficiency
> Kids used to be raised by all of society and now they're effectively raised by each other. Bullying is a huge problem but its largely because kids raise each other.
Contemporary society puts much more effort and individual attention toward raising individual kids then majority of past societies used to. Partly simply because we have those resource, partly because we have less kids and partly because ideas about childraising changed.
The "kids raise each other" complain is very modern, precisely because we expect more from childraising.
Contemporary society puts much more effort and individual attention toward raising individual kids then majority of past societies used to. Partly simply because we have those resource, partly because we have less kids and partly because ideas about childraising changed.
The "kids raise each other" complain is very modern, precisely because we expect more from childraising.
I just don't think that's true, we put so much less effort. We basically leave child raising to the state. See how many people are baffled by what to do when they actually have to be around their kids for most of the day because of the pandemic. Better to toss them at a wildly underpaid person for 6 hours a day who has to watch like 30 kids at once, where their main influences are other kids. We wonder what to do to fix society when part of it is "just stop with the dumb things"
Origin of kindergarten is in German 5 years old being alone whole day on the streets while both parents work 12 hours a day in factory. Or while moms worked as nannies for someone else. That was whole day job too, meaning there are two kids not having attention of parents.
The 10 years old kids who also used to work in factories were not "raised" by any contemporary meaning of word.
Back to small villages and families with many kids, all adults had to work very hard to just create necessities for everyone. Once the kids were past toddler plus a bit stage, adults simply could not tweak them individually people do with kids now.
Aristocratic kids were routinely sent to boarding schools.
I could continue on and on as I go through time periods, but kids spent a lot of time literally raising themselves. They also died a lot and were beaten a lot.
> we put so much less effort [...] See how many people are baffled by what to do when they actually have to be around their kids for most of the day because of the pandemic.
This is definitely not true. And yeah, I found out during pandemic that school teacher is significantly better teacher then me. Triple so while I cant send the kid just outside to play alone as was completely normal generations ago (with exception of isolated periods).
The 10 years old kids who also used to work in factories were not "raised" by any contemporary meaning of word.
Back to small villages and families with many kids, all adults had to work very hard to just create necessities for everyone. Once the kids were past toddler plus a bit stage, adults simply could not tweak them individually people do with kids now.
Aristocratic kids were routinely sent to boarding schools.
I could continue on and on as I go through time periods, but kids spent a lot of time literally raising themselves. They also died a lot and were beaten a lot.
> we put so much less effort [...] See how many people are baffled by what to do when they actually have to be around their kids for most of the day because of the pandemic.
This is definitely not true. And yeah, I found out during pandemic that school teacher is significantly better teacher then me. Triple so while I cant send the kid just outside to play alone as was completely normal generations ago (with exception of isolated periods).
So here's the thing, I speak from personal experience. When I was in sixth grade, I dropped out of school. I wasn't a dumb kid by any means, I dropped out of an expensive gifted and talented program. So my parents educated me for the next two years, and then I went back to high school and college and I was fine. You know what I missed from two years of "education". NOTHING. My dad's most important things were, you're going to be good at writing and math. And when I actually went back to school I was so much better at that shit that I ended up teaching a class in 9th grade. (The teacher and sub were out that day and they were like, who knows these things, and everyone pointed at me)
I just think our current school system is vastly ineffective and borderline cruel. But it frees up everyone for 8 hours a day so fuck it!
And look nobody is denying the world used to be a way worse place. But if you look at the history of school systems, it was created by oil tycoons that were angry that the working class was a little too opinionated. This has all been normal for 100 years, but it doesn't make it actually normal.
I just think our current school system is vastly ineffective and borderline cruel. But it frees up everyone for 8 hours a day so fuck it!
And look nobody is denying the world used to be a way worse place. But if you look at the history of school systems, it was created by oil tycoons that were angry that the working class was a little too opinionated. This has all been normal for 100 years, but it doesn't make it actually normal.
You was not raised in 1914 nor in 1870 with their child raising standards. You was homeschooled in our society with our standards.
Your parents educating you is not an argument about child raising in the past by average past family. Your gifted program was not school of the past and neither was your high school environment copy of past high school.
You are projecting contemporary experience in the past, but history does not work like that. In most likelyhood you would not had high school in part and would not be educated by parents at such high age either.
Lastly, we have actual historical books written about past, about families, childhood and ideas about childhood. That is part of historical research. It differed by class and place, obviously, but neither modern schools nor modern homeschooling are mimicking average historical familly.
Your parents educating you is not an argument about child raising in the past by average past family. Your gifted program was not school of the past and neither was your high school environment copy of past high school.
You are projecting contemporary experience in the past, but history does not work like that. In most likelyhood you would not had high school in part and would not be educated by parents at such high age either.
Lastly, we have actual historical books written about past, about families, childhood and ideas about childhood. That is part of historical research. It differed by class and place, obviously, but neither modern schools nor modern homeschooling are mimicking average historical familly.
Hey if you want to understand things read "the underground history of american education", written by the new york state teacher of the year. Our education system is built on creating conformity and crushing peoples spirits, and it has worked!
By the way that's not a grumpy opinion from me, those guys literally said that kind of thing out loud on record for history. They were like "how can we crush these uppity free thinkers". Do you really think it's an accident every school is named after like an oil tycoon? That wasn't philanthropy, they weren't nearly as nice as you think.
By the way that's not a grumpy opinion from me, those guys literally said that kind of thing out loud on record for history. They were like "how can we crush these uppity free thinkers". Do you really think it's an accident every school is named after like an oil tycoon? That wasn't philanthropy, they weren't nearly as nice as you think.
That is not argument about how people raised kids in the past. That is completely different argument about different topic.
This thread literally started with claim that contemporary adults spend less effort on childraising then people in the past.
Also, teacher of the year is not historian. America is not only country in the world.
This thread literally started with claim that contemporary adults spend less effort on childraising then people in the past.
Also, teacher of the year is not historian. America is not only country in the world.
> Contemporary society puts much more effort and individual attention toward raising individual kids then majority of past societies used to. The "kids raise each other" complain is very modern, precisely because we expect more from childraising.
Not really. If you go back a century or two, that might be true. Parents went off to the office, and the kids were left to their own devices. Often, herded together with tens/hundreds of other kids, with less adult supervision than today.
But if you go back many thousands of years to tribal societies, it's the opposite. Caveman kids spent most of their life around adults, and a handful of other kids. It's the equivalent of going to the neighborhood bbq, where there's a wide variety of adults and youths hanging out. Packing hundreds of kids into a confined place with 1 adult for every 30 kids... that is a very modern phenomenon.
Not really. If you go back a century or two, that might be true. Parents went off to the office, and the kids were left to their own devices. Often, herded together with tens/hundreds of other kids, with less adult supervision than today.
But if you go back many thousands of years to tribal societies, it's the opposite. Caveman kids spent most of their life around adults, and a handful of other kids. It's the equivalent of going to the neighborhood bbq, where there's a wide variety of adults and youths hanging out. Packing hundreds of kids into a confined place with 1 adult for every 30 kids... that is a very modern phenomenon.
You don’t even have to go that far back - consider that children in the 1700s and 1800s could join the British Navy at age 11 or 12 and become an officer at the ripe old age of 15 or thereabout.
Probably also worth remembering that the school system in some other countries seems to do much better.
From rough memory, perhaps the Nordic countries?
From rough memory, perhaps the Nordic countries?
I would claim most european countries, definitely north, definitely west and from my experience definitely east. Can't comment on the southern part
School combines incarceration with children.
Correlation or causation?
I grew up in an abusive home, and was both overweight and nerdy + socially awkward most of my childhood. Thus I got verbally & physically bullied at school badly too.
Until I was about 10-11, at which point I decided I had enough and snapped with all the pent-up rage of someone with nothing left to lose. I began starting a fight the moment others would belittle me. Didn't always win, but eventually other kids decided being a dick wasn't worth the physical confrontation and learned to leave me well enough alone.
Reflecting on this as an adult, I think that living through violence and abuse typically ends in one of two ways for most people.
Either they normalize the behavior, and perpetuate the cycle against their spouses and own children, or having lived through it themselves they can't imagine ever doing something like that to another human, let alone someone they care about.
I fall firmly into the second camp, but that doesn't seem to be the rule.
Until I was about 10-11, at which point I decided I had enough and snapped with all the pent-up rage of someone with nothing left to lose. I began starting a fight the moment others would belittle me. Didn't always win, but eventually other kids decided being a dick wasn't worth the physical confrontation and learned to leave me well enough alone.
Reflecting on this as an adult, I think that living through violence and abuse typically ends in one of two ways for most people.
Either they normalize the behavior, and perpetuate the cycle against their spouses and own children, or having lived through it themselves they can't imagine ever doing something like that to another human, let alone someone they care about.
I fall firmly into the second camp, but that doesn't seem to be the rule.
Your second to last paragraph doesn’t seem to be as mutually exclusive to me as you make it. Often it seems the ones perpetuating this behavior also can’t imagine ever causing the same harm that they went through when in fact it can be worse.
I'm sorry.
I snapped a few times too. It's super dangerous.
I think about Columbine and everything since all the time. That could have been me.
Most of our oversteer since has made things worse. My son's middle and high schools were pressure cookers. Seemingly optimized for drama and trauma.
I snapped a few times too. It's super dangerous.
I think about Columbine and everything since all the time. That could have been me.
Most of our oversteer since has made things worse. My son's middle and high schools were pressure cookers. Seemingly optimized for drama and trauma.
So much of the reaction to the Columbine shooting was the event itself and not why it happened. I'm not trying to excuse the tragedy there. Only pointing out that if you push people they may snap, and even if they were in the wrong in snapping the effects of the snap still remains.
My high school was and is extremely highly regarded and was a torture chamber for some people. My kids have grown up with the oversteer and their experiences were much better (in other schools) thankfully.
My high school was and is extremely highly regarded and was a torture chamber for some people. My kids have grown up with the oversteer and their experiences were much better (in other schools) thankfully.
I find the culture really bad. If a colleague punched somebody in the face at their workplace frequently, and that person constantly lived in threat of violence from that colleague for many hours a day, the colleague would be fired and handed to the police.
But you can do this to a child for 6 hours and it's often considered acceptable. Why would people be surprised when a human child's natural reaction to horrifying abuse mirrors what any other living animal would do?
But you can do this to a child for 6 hours and it's often considered acceptable. Why would people be surprised when a human child's natural reaction to horrifying abuse mirrors what any other living animal would do?
I've always been really upset about this. Also, the way it's treated by adults.
Teachers always just said to ignore them and they'll stop. That never worked for me. They also said you had to tell them if someone was being a bully. I did, they didn't really believe me and took no action. When it got too bad my parents reported the assault to the police. The police warned that kind of case was not a priority and then dropped it.
Eventually the bully was called to the principal and given a stern talking to. He was told next time there would be consequences. A few weeks later he punched another classmate in the eye so he temporarily lost eyesight on that eye. The bully was given a stern talking to and told that next time there really would be consequences.
Teachers always just said to ignore them and they'll stop. That never worked for me. They also said you had to tell them if someone was being a bully. I did, they didn't really believe me and took no action. When it got too bad my parents reported the assault to the police. The police warned that kind of case was not a priority and then dropped it.
Eventually the bully was called to the principal and given a stern talking to. He was told next time there would be consequences. A few weeks later he punched another classmate in the eye so he temporarily lost eyesight on that eye. The bully was given a stern talking to and told that next time there really would be consequences.
>But you can do this to a child for 6 hours and it's often considered acceptable.
-- often going unnoticed and/or unreported I might add.
-- often going unnoticed and/or unreported I might add.
If a child breaks in a school and no one chooses to hear, do they make a sound?
Afaik, Columbine was not case of snapping after being bullied. That was just something some reporters guessed and it became popular narrative. But, that does not seem to be what happened in that school.
Am the furtherest from being an expert, so many caveats:
TIL Wikipedia seems to agree with your assessment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre...
My understanding has long been the FBI profilers determined that spree shooters are begging for help, hoping someone will stop them. I'm pretty sure I got this from interviews in the movie Bowling for Columbine.
So it'd make sense to be alert for warning signs. Like most everything, all the well intentioned anti bullying measures were implemented terribly by noobs and proved counter productive.
But mostly, no one bothered to check to see if any of the remedies were helping.
Well, some measures are known failures. Like zero tolerance policies.
This is a recurring theme. DARE boosted drug use. Promoting abstinence boosted teenage pregnancy. Aggressive pain management led to opioid epidemic. Etc.
Lather, rinse, repeat.
TIL Wikipedia seems to agree with your assessment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre...
My understanding has long been the FBI profilers determined that spree shooters are begging for help, hoping someone will stop them. I'm pretty sure I got this from interviews in the movie Bowling for Columbine.
So it'd make sense to be alert for warning signs. Like most everything, all the well intentioned anti bullying measures were implemented terribly by noobs and proved counter productive.
But mostly, no one bothered to check to see if any of the remedies were helping.
Well, some measures are known failures. Like zero tolerance policies.
This is a recurring theme. DARE boosted drug use. Promoting abstinence boosted teenage pregnancy. Aggressive pain management led to opioid epidemic. Etc.
Lather, rinse, repeat.
> Aggressive pain management led to opioid epidemic
This isn't what I got from staying informed on that epidemic, so I'm curious where you got this from. My impression is the Sacklers lied intensely about Oxycontin, and those lies are what did most of the harm.
This isn't what I got from staying informed on that epidemic, so I'm curious where you got this from. My impression is the Sacklers lied intensely about Oxycontin, and those lies are what did most of the harm.
I currently share Dr. Atul Gawande's assessment. It jives with my personal (anecdotal) experience. I was in a pain and toxicity study, right during the major shift from under treating to over treating pain. And Gawande's criticism about the missing followup studies jives with my experience.
https://www.vox.com/2017/9/8/16270370/atul-gawande-opioid-we...
In my version of the story, Sacklers were opportunists who helped bury the evidence (a la Merchants of Doubt).
https://www.vox.com/2017/9/8/16270370/atul-gawande-opioid-we...
In my version of the story, Sacklers were opportunists who helped bury the evidence (a la Merchants of Doubt).
Wonder if there's any chance of reconciling our info sources. Probably hard at this distance of space and time from the event.
>living through violence and abuse typically ends in one of two ways for most people.
You forgot suicide and self-harm.
>One in 10 teenagers bullied at school have attempted to commit suicide, according to research published today. In addition, a further 30 per cent go on to self-harm.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/...
You forgot suicide and self-harm.
>One in 10 teenagers bullied at school have attempted to commit suicide, according to research published today. In addition, a further 30 per cent go on to self-harm.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/...
Interesting. Personally I've not ever seen an instance of someone who was (seriously) bullied, themselves then become a bully.
I have, and I'd bet that a reason you don't see it often is that you generally don't keep many adult bullies as close friends, because they're usually not people who are nice to be around.
Interesting. That's probably a really good point. :)
You're right, I tend to not include people in my friendship group who are arseholes or treat others badly.
You're right, I tend to not include people in my friendship group who are arseholes or treat others badly.
Not quite your description of bully becoming the bully, but I knew someone who was bullied who became a needy adult that used emotional abuse in their relationships. The person was high functioning on the autism spectrum and had been taunted and mocked in school for being awkward, different, and unable to defend themselves socially. More importantly, the person also said their parents were socially ambitious and always vocally disappointed in them for not being part of the "popular" kids.
As an older teen, this person rebelled against their parents, smoked a lot of weed to self-medicate, but also had serious self-image problems and attempted suicide. Eventually got into programming and earned a decent living in a different country. But when I knew them as an adult, I always found them cranky, critical, and anxious. I later found out from an ex-partner that they were manipulative and needy, threatening to leave or even kill themselves when they didn't get their way.
I was friends with this ex-partner who told me it looked like a mild case of borderline personality disorder: and the symptoms and actions seemed to fit. It's often caused by childhood emotional trauma, leads to emotional abuse of others in vain attempt to get the affection they were missing as children (that's a very rough summary). And it can lead to their own children missing the critical affection they need and thus perpetuate. And that made me think that perhaps this person's parents were also emotionally abusive because of a similar situation. And I even wonder if borderline personality disorder isn't a social comorbidity with autism spectrum, not medically related but a social situation that can happen more frequently.
As an older teen, this person rebelled against their parents, smoked a lot of weed to self-medicate, but also had serious self-image problems and attempted suicide. Eventually got into programming and earned a decent living in a different country. But when I knew them as an adult, I always found them cranky, critical, and anxious. I later found out from an ex-partner that they were manipulative and needy, threatening to leave or even kill themselves when they didn't get their way.
I was friends with this ex-partner who told me it looked like a mild case of borderline personality disorder: and the symptoms and actions seemed to fit. It's often caused by childhood emotional trauma, leads to emotional abuse of others in vain attempt to get the affection they were missing as children (that's a very rough summary). And it can lead to their own children missing the critical affection they need and thus perpetuate. And that made me think that perhaps this person's parents were also emotionally abusive because of a similar situation. And I even wonder if borderline personality disorder isn't a social comorbidity with autism spectrum, not medically related but a social situation that can happen more frequently.
I wanted to chime in on GP with some interesting personal experience (obviously on a throwaway), and this is so similar I figured I'd just reply here.
Similar experience to your acquaintance growing up (high function autism and related experiences), except my parents only really had academic goals for me, which I was unable to meet completely due to down stream emotional effects of my poor social aptitude and comorbid ADHD(none of this was diagnosed until my 20s). Additionally my parents are very accepting and provided me with little surface to rebel against as a teen, and I've come to realize as an adult (~30 now) that they were very distant compared to the norm, for whatever thats worth.
With regards to violence, the bullying I received wasn't super physical and I received little if any corporal punishment as a kid. Escalating a verbal argument to a physical altercation is something I stopped doing when I was 7 or 8, and I had learned to cope with people enough by that time to just avoid fights entirely.
It took me years to develop my social skills to the degree of being able to get into a steady relationship, and I think if you talked to the first few people I dated they would have described me as needy, unfortunately. However, I would say in retrospect I wasn't terribly needy, just too inexperienced to know when I'm not clicking with someone, and still idealizing the person I'm dating.
Then I got into a relationship with someone who was physically abusive. This didn't have the effect of causing me to become violent, I was a fully functioning adult by this time well into my 20s, however it gave me a profound respect for how far society has come wrt animal training and the treatment of children. Every time I got hit my mind became a little more confused, fearful and upset. Often times I wouldn't even know what I did to get hit when it happened. Eventually I involuntarily grabbed their wrist as they were about to hit me and it managed to leave a bruise, that they then threatened me with and held over my head (my skin doesn't mark, and my ex was nearly a foot shorter than me, a tall fit male). As a result I became extremely fearful of being hit, fearing my own reaction more than anything. Until then I'd have people try and convince me from time to time that I had some underlying anxiety that I just didn't recognize, but this put that to rest, as for the first time in my life I was experiencing visceral anxiety and its symptoms, waking up with with terrible stomach aches everyday and depersonalization being chief among them. During all this I truly believed that if I put up with it long enough and worked on their problems they would get over it. I ended up just being damaged, not to the extent of partaking in direct violence, but by the end of it I was breaking things and slamming around, something I never would have done before, and even now seems like it was done by another person.
Anywho, the relationship and how it developed and ended, along with losing my business about halfway through gave me a severe bout of depression that I'm still struggling to overcome a couple years later. Even with good diet and exercise I'm barely functional (without it I will literally do nothing) and while I could really use medication for the ADHD to help me start getting enough things done that my depression also goes away, and probably some therapy at this point, the type of energy it takes to sign up for social medicine in my country/state is the same type I need for almost every other thing in my life, like a job in software, and the type I'm most short on. It really sucks.
Similar experience to your acquaintance growing up (high function autism and related experiences), except my parents only really had academic goals for me, which I was unable to meet completely due to down stream emotional effects of my poor social aptitude and comorbid ADHD(none of this was diagnosed until my 20s). Additionally my parents are very accepting and provided me with little surface to rebel against as a teen, and I've come to realize as an adult (~30 now) that they were very distant compared to the norm, for whatever thats worth.
With regards to violence, the bullying I received wasn't super physical and I received little if any corporal punishment as a kid. Escalating a verbal argument to a physical altercation is something I stopped doing when I was 7 or 8, and I had learned to cope with people enough by that time to just avoid fights entirely.
It took me years to develop my social skills to the degree of being able to get into a steady relationship, and I think if you talked to the first few people I dated they would have described me as needy, unfortunately. However, I would say in retrospect I wasn't terribly needy, just too inexperienced to know when I'm not clicking with someone, and still idealizing the person I'm dating.
Then I got into a relationship with someone who was physically abusive. This didn't have the effect of causing me to become violent, I was a fully functioning adult by this time well into my 20s, however it gave me a profound respect for how far society has come wrt animal training and the treatment of children. Every time I got hit my mind became a little more confused, fearful and upset. Often times I wouldn't even know what I did to get hit when it happened. Eventually I involuntarily grabbed their wrist as they were about to hit me and it managed to leave a bruise, that they then threatened me with and held over my head (my skin doesn't mark, and my ex was nearly a foot shorter than me, a tall fit male). As a result I became extremely fearful of being hit, fearing my own reaction more than anything. Until then I'd have people try and convince me from time to time that I had some underlying anxiety that I just didn't recognize, but this put that to rest, as for the first time in my life I was experiencing visceral anxiety and its symptoms, waking up with with terrible stomach aches everyday and depersonalization being chief among them. During all this I truly believed that if I put up with it long enough and worked on their problems they would get over it. I ended up just being damaged, not to the extent of partaking in direct violence, but by the end of it I was breaking things and slamming around, something I never would have done before, and even now seems like it was done by another person.
Anywho, the relationship and how it developed and ended, along with losing my business about halfway through gave me a severe bout of depression that I'm still struggling to overcome a couple years later. Even with good diet and exercise I'm barely functional (without it I will literally do nothing) and while I could really use medication for the ADHD to help me start getting enough things done that my depression also goes away, and probably some therapy at this point, the type of energy it takes to sign up for social medicine in my country/state is the same type I need for almost every other thing in my life, like a job in software, and the type I'm most short on. It really sucks.
Ouch. Yeah, that does really suck.
Um. * hug *.
There's not anything I can personally do to help. But, I do hope you solve the situation somehow, in a way that leads to a good result for yourself. :)
Um. * hug *.
There's not anything I can personally do to help. But, I do hope you solve the situation somehow, in a way that leads to a good result for yourself. :)
Yeah, that's an interesting aspect. That person definitely sounds like they've become the abusive type after all.
> Either they normalize the behavior, and perpetuate the cycle against their spouses and own children
The "cycle of abuse" refers to the different repeating stages an abuse victim and abuser go through together in an abusive relationship[1]. It does not refer to victims of abuse going on to further abuse others or their abuser.
This is something that research also backs up: victims of abuse are no more likely to turn around abuse others than people who did not experience abuse.
It's an important distinction because the popular conception of what the "cycle of abuse" entails matches yours. That misconception leads to outcomes where victims of abuse are painted as abusers when they stand up for themselves or attempt to escape the abuse, and some are even prosecuted for domestic abuse after doing so, or after seeking help from law enforcement.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_of_abuse
The "cycle of abuse" refers to the different repeating stages an abuse victim and abuser go through together in an abusive relationship[1]. It does not refer to victims of abuse going on to further abuse others or their abuser.
This is something that research also backs up: victims of abuse are no more likely to turn around abuse others than people who did not experience abuse.
It's an important distinction because the popular conception of what the "cycle of abuse" entails matches yours. That misconception leads to outcomes where victims of abuse are painted as abusers when they stand up for themselves or attempt to escape the abuse, and some are even prosecuted for domestic abuse after doing so, or after seeking help from law enforcement.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_of_abuse
In your own wiki link: "The phrase is also used more generally to describe any set of conditions which perpetuate abusive and dysfunctional relationships, such as in poor child rearing practices which tend to get passed down."
The research I have read, and googled for, seems to dispute your claim. There appears to be a strong correlation between childhood victims of abuse then abusing others: https://www.nytimes.com/1989/01/24/science/sad-legacy-of-abu... as well as being more likely to be involved in abuse and violence (giving and receiving) as adults: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeand...
The research I have read, and googled for, seems to dispute your claim. There appears to be a strong correlation between childhood victims of abuse then abusing others: https://www.nytimes.com/1989/01/24/science/sad-legacy-of-abu... as well as being more likely to be involved in abuse and violence (giving and receiving) as adults: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeand...
Not to air too much dirty laundry but this is exactly the defense my ex-wife used at our divorce. I stood up against abuse and she claimed the victim of abuse perpetuating this misconception of "abuse" and leveraged a whole host of public services for women who are victims of real abuse.
Good point. I like using inter-generational here, but it's kind of a mouthful.
> I began starting a fight the moment others would belittle me.
This sucks but.. from personal experience, there's absolutely no question in my mind that this is by far the most effective way to deal with assholes in middle school. I'd love to be wrong, but if there's a better way, I certainly didn't find it when I daily had to deal with that kind of shit.
This sucks but.. from personal experience, there's absolutely no question in my mind that this is by far the most effective way to deal with assholes in middle school. I'd love to be wrong, but if there's a better way, I certainly didn't find it when I daily had to deal with that kind of shit.
I agree and really wish it weren't so, because I have to give advice to my son like "If someone is tormenting you and won't stop, eventually you're going to have to fight them. Make sure the opening is advantageous to you, even if it means you throw the first punch."
That's the kind of thing that's not true for almost any situation exception school, where the other option is potentially years of physical and emotional abuse.
The sad part is a lot of the people who were bullied (who I witnessed) were quite large children, who probably would have easily handed the the bully his own arse, but because of fear he didn't physically defend himself.
That's the kind of thing that's not true for almost any situation exception school, where the other option is potentially years of physical and emotional abuse.
The sad part is a lot of the people who were bullied (who I witnessed) were quite large children, who probably would have easily handed the the bully his own arse, but because of fear he didn't physically defend himself.
When I was in... I dunno, 5th grade? I got disciplined because some kid was punching me on the playground, so I kicked him. I told the school administrators, they didn't care. The phrase they used was "we don't use karate on people here!" I had no idea what karate was.
I got bullied at the next couple schools I went to, and the only way anyone would stop was the few times I (or somebody else on my behalf) fought back. But of course then I would get in trouble for fighting.
I was later told many times I had a "problem with authority". Who wouldn't? How do you learn fairness, justice, or to respect authority if it treats you like crap?
I got bullied at the next couple schools I went to, and the only way anyone would stop was the few times I (or somebody else on my behalf) fought back. But of course then I would get in trouble for fighting.
I was later told many times I had a "problem with authority". Who wouldn't? How do you learn fairness, justice, or to respect authority if it treats you like crap?
(Disclaimer: I got bullied and bullied...)
I'm very sorry to hear this. Unfortunately, what you described is common with regards to bullying. Even if you get bullied with words, snap out, and are the first to enter physically violent you might reasonably have gotten provoked (trolled) into that situation. A school who then says "you started the violence" while ignoring (not taking into account) everything which happened before that, is turning a blind eye to the problem and ultimately not putting in the effort they should be responsible and accountable for. They should get to the root of the problem: the bullying. And that happens for a good reason; usually insecurity within the bullies, a leader who has servants, etc.
On the other hand, it is a valuable lesson to punish the person who started physical violence. This is because (at least here) the law works in such a way that whoever starts with physical behavior (including 'pushing') is the one who started, and allows the other person to defend themselves. I experienced this roughly 5 years ago myself (though also in other situations). One time I was walking through downtown Amsterdam to work (evening shift) and I bought some food for on the go. I was eating it, when suddenly 3 guys stand around me and ask if they can have some of my food. Well, actually, no. It was my dinner before my shift at work, and there was no easy/cheap way to get decent food at work, besides it cost me enough, and I had to be there on time. These guys circled around me, wouldn't let me go, and eventually got me near a store/wall/corner (I had a MBP in my backpack which was my primary concern). If at any point I had pushed them to get out of there, I would have started, so there's not much you can do at such point but argue. They kept 'begging'. Within a minute they insulted me one final time (called me a pig) and then walked away. I didn't understand WTF just happened but I asked my partner later, and she told me these guys weren't interested in my food; they were just looking for a fight. Had I pushed them away, I'd have started.
I'm very sorry to hear this. Unfortunately, what you described is common with regards to bullying. Even if you get bullied with words, snap out, and are the first to enter physically violent you might reasonably have gotten provoked (trolled) into that situation. A school who then says "you started the violence" while ignoring (not taking into account) everything which happened before that, is turning a blind eye to the problem and ultimately not putting in the effort they should be responsible and accountable for. They should get to the root of the problem: the bullying. And that happens for a good reason; usually insecurity within the bullies, a leader who has servants, etc.
On the other hand, it is a valuable lesson to punish the person who started physical violence. This is because (at least here) the law works in such a way that whoever starts with physical behavior (including 'pushing') is the one who started, and allows the other person to defend themselves. I experienced this roughly 5 years ago myself (though also in other situations). One time I was walking through downtown Amsterdam to work (evening shift) and I bought some food for on the go. I was eating it, when suddenly 3 guys stand around me and ask if they can have some of my food. Well, actually, no. It was my dinner before my shift at work, and there was no easy/cheap way to get decent food at work, besides it cost me enough, and I had to be there on time. These guys circled around me, wouldn't let me go, and eventually got me near a store/wall/corner (I had a MBP in my backpack which was my primary concern). If at any point I had pushed them to get out of there, I would have started, so there's not much you can do at such point but argue. They kept 'begging'. Within a minute they insulted me one final time (called me a pig) and then walked away. I didn't understand WTF just happened but I asked my partner later, and she told me these guys weren't interested in my food; they were just looking for a fight. Had I pushed them away, I'd have started.
I defended myself and faught bullies and abusers in middle and high school. They were too stupid to understand anything, especially diminishing returns. Two of those guys are now mortgage brokers. Lol.
Silence is the other successful approach. You make yourself an unappealing punching bag by not responding or taking it in a way the bully finds pleasurable. I personally found the fighting back approach unsuccessful for myself and I know others did too.
It doesn’t work if watching you try and fight back is funny for the bullies. Seeing you flail about is a blast for them.
It doesn’t work if watching you try and fight back is funny for the bullies. Seeing you flail about is a blast for them.
I tried ignoring all the bullies and not encouraging them. That's what all the adults said to do.
I tried already before I was six. Kept trying until I was sixteen. It never worked. It only got worse.
I ignored them, they pushed me down a flight of stairs and then beat me when I was trying to catch myself. I didn't respond to them trying to pick a fight, they swept my legs so my head hit the stone floor and then sat on top of me hitting me.
Luckily, at sixteen I started upper secondary school and got away from the problem children. It was a technology programme and people were there because they'd actually chosen it. But it took years before I could be at least a bit less withdrawn and socially awkward.
I tried already before I was six. Kept trying until I was sixteen. It never worked. It only got worse.
I ignored them, they pushed me down a flight of stairs and then beat me when I was trying to catch myself. I didn't respond to them trying to pick a fight, they swept my legs so my head hit the stone floor and then sat on top of me hitting me.
Luckily, at sixteen I started upper secondary school and got away from the problem children. It was a technology programme and people were there because they'd actually chosen it. But it took years before I could be at least a bit less withdrawn and socially awkward.
Ignoring/silence sounds good on paper, but it generally doesn't work with persistent bullies. They notice your reaction e.g. facial expression. Even if you just twitch or blink. It fuels them.
If you physically fight back, you need to do it effectively. Perhaps follow some martial arts lessons. My partner got bullied by one person (very hard), and practiced kickboxing. Yet when they got in a fight, she got blamed. All the, literally years, of bullying be damned. That's a blow in face from adults who are supposed to protect you, and it hurts.
If you physically fight back, you need to do it effectively. Perhaps follow some martial arts lessons. My partner got bullied by one person (very hard), and practiced kickboxing. Yet when they got in a fight, she got blamed. All the, literally years, of bullying be damned. That's a blow in face from adults who are supposed to protect you, and it hurts.
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> Seeing you flail about is a blast for them.
Maybe (?) the problem there was not having developed the skills to fight back effectively, before doing so.
For myself, I was able to start training in martial arts (starting with a reasonable Taekwondo place) after I'd been bullied for a while.
Personally, I was still a complete wimp for at least the first few years after I started training.
But at some point (maybe 3-4 years into training?) I did the "snap" thing and had the skills + physique for it to be effective. Plus I wasn't stupid enough to "snap" in a public place where I'd be caught.
Maybe the other important thing is learning to pick your opportune moment(s) for pay back. ;)
Maybe (?) the problem there was not having developed the skills to fight back effectively, before doing so.
For myself, I was able to start training in martial arts (starting with a reasonable Taekwondo place) after I'd been bullied for a while.
Personally, I was still a complete wimp for at least the first few years after I started training.
But at some point (maybe 3-4 years into training?) I did the "snap" thing and had the skills + physique for it to be effective. Plus I wasn't stupid enough to "snap" in a public place where I'd be caught.
Maybe the other important thing is learning to pick your opportune moment(s) for pay back. ;)
Middle school isn't the octagon. Granted knowing how to throw a punch or kick with decent technique helps, but what's really important is having the attitude of being willing to inflict harm on another human being. And it sounds like that was what limited GP's courses of action. Also of course GP could have been skipped grades or otherwise been much punier than the other students, in which case the amount of training one could get by that age would likely be irrelevant anyhow. In that case the correct strategy is to make friends. Middle school really is a remarkable distillation of human tribal behaviors.
The awkward but obvious theory is that they get bullied because they're the kind of anti social people likely to become violent adults.
That sounds like "Maybe minorities just commit more crimes." While blatantly ignoring that the law enforcers themselves have a higher rate of domestic violence. It is like asking "What did all of those people do to drive Jeffrey Dahlmer to kill them?" It is a stupid, lazy, and evil take of a "Just World Fallacy".
As a victim of bullying in my childhood, I can attest to this. When I hear people say that they cannot fathom how a person could walk into a restaurant and kill everybody, I don't tell them, but I do know what kind of anger you need to develop to be able to do such thing. That could have been me, but fortunately, it wasn't. I'm grateful I was able to overcome that.
To me, "that anger" seems kind of weird though.
I mean, the anger itself is understandable. eg "person XYZ or people ABC kicked my teeth in every day of school".
But shouldn't the anger be directed to the people who did the bullying? Rather than just randomly spread out towards people who weren't even present.
Like, only one of those approaches goes some way to solving the problem or even "pay back".
I mean, the anger itself is understandable. eg "person XYZ or people ABC kicked my teeth in every day of school".
But shouldn't the anger be directed to the people who did the bullying? Rather than just randomly spread out towards people who weren't even present.
Like, only one of those approaches goes some way to solving the problem or even "pay back".
It's an attack on the system. In the end it wasn't really the individual kids that are bullies that are the cause. It's the system that allows them to bully. That's why you see so many school shootings. School is essentially bully heaven.
> it wasn't really the individual kids that are bullies that are the cause.
Hmmm, I don't really buy it.
From the perspective of a bullied kid, those individual kids are the bullies.
What bullied kid really thinks "it's not those kids doing this, it's the system"?
Blaming the system is a much higher-level / abstract thought. Maybe from a more mature person's mind set, looking back over things?
All that being said, randomly going and shooting people doesn't really seem like an effective "attack on the system".
Wouldn't attacking the system involve figuring out the responsible "system" people or components, so they'd be the focus of attack? Random shooting acts... isn't really that. :(
Hmmm, I don't really buy it.
From the perspective of a bullied kid, those individual kids are the bullies.
What bullied kid really thinks "it's not those kids doing this, it's the system"?
Blaming the system is a much higher-level / abstract thought. Maybe from a more mature person's mind set, looking back over things?
All that being said, randomly going and shooting people doesn't really seem like an effective "attack on the system".
Wouldn't attacking the system involve figuring out the responsible "system" people or components, so they'd be the focus of attack? Random shooting acts... isn't really that. :(
I feel the term Society fits better than 'the system'.
Society's compulsive responses to strong abusive scenarios do not initiate harmful cycles, but they do protect and help perpetuate them.
Please see my above post for a more direct explanation. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24991788
Society's compulsive responses to strong abusive scenarios do not initiate harmful cycles, but they do protect and help perpetuate them.
Please see my above post for a more direct explanation. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24991788
It’s not “societies” poor management.
It’s literally the system put in place over decades.
The system is an apt metaphor.
To be clear, are you saying there is a system of bullies in play?
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> What bullied kid really thinks "it's not those kids doing this, it's the system"?
Me, I thought this. I wrote a long post explaining it and then erased it because this pattern exists everywhere and is essentially the foundation of all terrorism (which terrorists often believe works, e.g. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing: "McVeigh believed that the bomb attack had a positive impact on government policy. In evidence he cited the peaceful resolution of the Montana Freemen standoff in 1996, the government's $3.1 million settlement with Randy Weaver and his surviving children four months after the bombing, and April 2000 statements by Bill Clinton regretting his decision to storm the Branch Davidian compound."
Obviously I don't condone terrorism or agree with Timothy McVeigh about anything, but the idea "group X is neglecting their responsibility for this broken system, and they need to feel the pain of the brokenness so that they take the responsibility seriously" is common)
Would students not believe this because they're young? In middle school and high school I was definitely aware enough to see the ocean of people who didn't think the bad behavior of bullies was their responsibility (or were too timid to confront bullies' constant boundary-testing, or both) but loved the opportunity to repremand any victims who tried to escape their situation by escalating the conflict. In that case I think the argument that the bad behavior of bullies actually was their fault is credible, since they weren't forcing bullies to take responsibility for their own behavior and they were denying victims any tools to escape their situation. Likewise, we, as voters, know that schools all have this problem and yet few of us are taking any responsibility for it. Major school reform is rare.
Honestly for me the escape was a late growth spurt and an enthusiasm for weightlifting. A reality of human psychology is that if you're physically intimidating, both peers and teachers will give you some space. The magnetism of "might makes right" is powerful, even if it's unfair
edits: wording
Me, I thought this. I wrote a long post explaining it and then erased it because this pattern exists everywhere and is essentially the foundation of all terrorism (which terrorists often believe works, e.g. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing: "McVeigh believed that the bomb attack had a positive impact on government policy. In evidence he cited the peaceful resolution of the Montana Freemen standoff in 1996, the government's $3.1 million settlement with Randy Weaver and his surviving children four months after the bombing, and April 2000 statements by Bill Clinton regretting his decision to storm the Branch Davidian compound."
Obviously I don't condone terrorism or agree with Timothy McVeigh about anything, but the idea "group X is neglecting their responsibility for this broken system, and they need to feel the pain of the brokenness so that they take the responsibility seriously" is common)
Would students not believe this because they're young? In middle school and high school I was definitely aware enough to see the ocean of people who didn't think the bad behavior of bullies was their responsibility (or were too timid to confront bullies' constant boundary-testing, or both) but loved the opportunity to repremand any victims who tried to escape their situation by escalating the conflict. In that case I think the argument that the bad behavior of bullies actually was their fault is credible, since they weren't forcing bullies to take responsibility for their own behavior and they were denying victims any tools to escape their situation. Likewise, we, as voters, know that schools all have this problem and yet few of us are taking any responsibility for it. Major school reform is rare.
Honestly for me the escape was a late growth spurt and an enthusiasm for weightlifting. A reality of human psychology is that if you're physically intimidating, both peers and teachers will give you some space. The magnetism of "might makes right" is powerful, even if it's unfair
edits: wording
Interesting. Thanks, that's explained well.
Didn't realise some young people were that self aware. I don't think I was, when I was bullied as a kid (long time ago now ;>).
Didn't realise some young people were that self aware. I don't think I was, when I was bullied as a kid (long time ago now ;>).
When it comes to school shootings the shooters often give mercy to other social outcasts.
> Hmmm, I don't really buy it.
Buy it.
You asked for the answer, you got it.
> What bullied kid really thinks "it's not those kids doing this, it's the system"?
Hello there. Me.
I was an alienated, disaffected youth. Do you know what a Bagger 288 is? I used to day dream about driving one of those through my city, ripping up entire neighborhoods. When society systematically fails you it's easy to feel that "Everyone deserves to suffer because everyone is to blame." (A line from Aeon Flux that haunted me for years. IIRC the character who says it has some sort of emotional breakthrough and winds up donating his arm to a little armless kid or something. Weird show.)
But you don't have to be a genius to figure out that kids mostly don't come prepackaged with severe mental and emotional problems.
Back in school, the hyperactive kid who rubbed his crotch on my head? It turns out he's a crack baby. That's why he acts that way. Blame the CIA!?
(> Webb conducted a year-long investigation during which he discovered that a San Francisco-based drug ring, which had ties to a CIA-sponsored Nicaraguan contra group called the FDN, sold cocaine to a dealer in South Central Los Angeles. The millions of dollars made from those sales were later used to fund a secret war against the leftist Sandinista regime. In short, Webb accused the CIA of being complicit in getting thousands of poor African-Americans addicted to crack in order to fund rebels in Central America.
https://time.com/3482909/this-is-the-real-story-behind-kill-... )
The system itself is the problem, and there's no effective attack on the system.
How do you fight Moloch? ( https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ )
Buy it.
You asked for the answer, you got it.
> What bullied kid really thinks "it's not those kids doing this, it's the system"?
Hello there. Me.
I was an alienated, disaffected youth. Do you know what a Bagger 288 is? I used to day dream about driving one of those through my city, ripping up entire neighborhoods. When society systematically fails you it's easy to feel that "Everyone deserves to suffer because everyone is to blame." (A line from Aeon Flux that haunted me for years. IIRC the character who says it has some sort of emotional breakthrough and winds up donating his arm to a little armless kid or something. Weird show.)
But you don't have to be a genius to figure out that kids mostly don't come prepackaged with severe mental and emotional problems.
Back in school, the hyperactive kid who rubbed his crotch on my head? It turns out he's a crack baby. That's why he acts that way. Blame the CIA!?
(> Webb conducted a year-long investigation during which he discovered that a San Francisco-based drug ring, which had ties to a CIA-sponsored Nicaraguan contra group called the FDN, sold cocaine to a dealer in South Central Los Angeles. The millions of dollars made from those sales were later used to fund a secret war against the leftist Sandinista regime. In short, Webb accused the CIA of being complicit in getting thousands of poor African-Americans addicted to crack in order to fund rebels in Central America.
https://time.com/3482909/this-is-the-real-story-behind-kill-... )
The system itself is the problem, and there's no effective attack on the system.
How do you fight Moloch? ( https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ )
Human anger is not necessary targeted fairly or at right target. Human anger is often targeted at whoever is around when the emotion strikes - or whoever is easy target.
People are not perfectly tuned machines. Yes, people should exercise self control over emotions and acts and direct that anger appropriately.
People are not perfectly tuned machines. Yes, people should exercise self control over emotions and acts and direct that anger appropriately.
> But shouldn't the anger be directed to the people who did the bullying?
Yes, but bear in mind the world does not necessarily pity the bullied. When it happened to me and my friends in school, we were shunned and snickered at by seemingly "everyone" at the time, girls especially. Teachers didn't care either.
Yes, but bear in mind the world does not necessarily pity the bullied. When it happened to me and my friends in school, we were shunned and snickered at by seemingly "everyone" at the time, girls especially. Teachers didn't care either.
> ... the world does not necessarily pity the bullied.
That kind of confuses me. Not sure why it's relevant? :)
That kind of confuses me. Not sure why it's relevant? :)
Because instead of finding solace outside of the abusive situation, one often finds more abuse.
It’s very easy to misdirect that anger to others.
I just was commenting on directing anger at the perpetrators, that to a young mind it can feel like "everyone is a part of it".
The stigma against revealing harmful tendencies kills a powerful method of thwarting that behavior - self-outing.
I often (to generally good effect) out myself as a child abuser. This is narrowly possible because my abuse was strictly verbal - which is marginally allowed by society.
The benefits of being able to speak openly (with empathy and careful consideration) about my bad behavior are huge.
For starters, it encourages my children to speak and think about their mistreatment as a matter-of-fact aspect of their lives. Factoring that reality helps them be more self-aware.
Also, constantly keeping sunshine on my bad behavior degrades the ability of that behavior to exist in harmful, self-sustaining cycles.
This also gives me a good position to speak on the sexual, physical and emotional mistreatment I received. I can explain how the people who hurt me were themselves shaped by abuse - which is a deeply unpopular thing to consider.
The overall reality is this. By believing the only appropriate way to think of perpetrators is with shame and rage, we are insuring the creation of more perpetrators.
I often (to generally good effect) out myself as a child abuser. This is narrowly possible because my abuse was strictly verbal - which is marginally allowed by society.
The benefits of being able to speak openly (with empathy and careful consideration) about my bad behavior are huge.
For starters, it encourages my children to speak and think about their mistreatment as a matter-of-fact aspect of their lives. Factoring that reality helps them be more self-aware.
Also, constantly keeping sunshine on my bad behavior degrades the ability of that behavior to exist in harmful, self-sustaining cycles.
This also gives me a good position to speak on the sexual, physical and emotional mistreatment I received. I can explain how the people who hurt me were themselves shaped by abuse - which is a deeply unpopular thing to consider.
The overall reality is this. By believing the only appropriate way to think of perpetrators is with shame and rage, we are insuring the creation of more perpetrators.
How was this study performed and who was included in the study?
That shouldn't be possible, its completely at odds with how reward and punishment pathways of the brain function. See the Orbital Frontal Cortex, motor cortex, pre-motor cortex and Striatum for more details.
That shouldn't be possible, its completely at odds with how reward and punishment pathways of the brain function. See the Orbital Frontal Cortex, motor cortex, pre-motor cortex and Striatum for more details.
I remember reading little house on the praire where the teacher bull whipped the classroom bullies, and they never caused any problems after that.
“I and the public know
What all schoolchildren learn,
Those to whom evil is done
Do evil in return.”
― W. H. Auden
― W. H. Auden
If you were bullied and still carry it with you, or know someone that's being bullied, I can't highly enough recommend training Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (when COVID19 is resolved, it's a pretty intimate endeavor!).
It's not always comfortable or easy, but the boost in evidence-based confidence is remarkable.
It's not always comfortable or easy, but the boost in evidence-based confidence is remarkable.
This is more general. Victims of abusive parents are also more likely to be abusive parents. It's monkey-see, monkey-do -- you will treat others how you were treated in the past.
Reminds me of Bully, the video game. I wonder how it would have been received had it been released in 2020.
As far as I can tell, they haven't established _causation_ in either direction, just correlation. Which is important to keep in mind when discussing possible mechanisms.
I think if you went the violence bullying instead of verbal like getting laughed at, you may be predisposed even more
Too many here suggest fighting back which is completely irresponsible. Bullying is mostly done by groups and you can't effectively fight more than 2 opponents even with proper training. Also, bullies always escalate, so for every punch you throw you'll receive it back with a bonus kick. Going guerilla will lead to assymmetrical retaliation.
Not even mentioning potential problems with school authorities or the law (if you're effective).
There's a persistent image of 'bad neighbourhoods' in the US. Will you suggest fighting back there too? Schools are like that but you can't move away.
Not even mentioning potential problems with school authorities or the law (if you're effective).
There's a persistent image of 'bad neighbourhoods' in the US. Will you suggest fighting back there too? Schools are like that but you can't move away.
The result is that both bullies and earlier abusers work together, to shape a persistent state of helplessness within the child.