Ask HN: Anyone else burnt out due to extended lockdown and work-from-home?
554 comments
I spent 6 months in lock down in a 1 bedroom apartment in Australia. Working from home. 1hr outdoor/exercise a day. No more than 5km from home. We had pretty strict rules. I went for a walk around the block with my mate once a week and spoke to my family on zoom once a fortnight and that was about the extent of my social contact for a large part of 2020.
I managed pretty well. I'm a naturally introverted person, which is perhaps a good trait to have in this situation. I'm already used to spending a lot of time by myself and I have things I like to do. This is key, I think. I spent long hours making DJ mixes in Ableton and playing records on my hi-fi. That's a creative place for me and it was very satisfying to have the time to bury myself in it.
I wrote code, not heaps, but I played around with a few things.
I dug up some old/remake computer games (Half Life Black Mesa was by far the best)! I watched a bunch of old films I haven't seen in years, and a few bits and pieces on Netflix. I read books. I went for a 1hr walk every day and enjoyed the sight of trees and the sound of birds. I said a sincere thanks and smiled with my eyes at the people who staff the stores I shopped at once/twice a week. They have a hard job and I think it's important to convey gratitude to them.
I'd be lying if I said it was all fine, there were definitely days when I was bored stiff, depressed or otherwise not in a great place, but it was helpful to remember that everyone was in the same boat, and my sacrifice, along with everyone else's, are what is going to pull us through.
Keep your chins up. Especially you guys in the USA. What a mess you have to fix over there. I hope this year is productive.
I managed pretty well. I'm a naturally introverted person, which is perhaps a good trait to have in this situation. I'm already used to spending a lot of time by myself and I have things I like to do. This is key, I think. I spent long hours making DJ mixes in Ableton and playing records on my hi-fi. That's a creative place for me and it was very satisfying to have the time to bury myself in it.
I wrote code, not heaps, but I played around with a few things.
I dug up some old/remake computer games (Half Life Black Mesa was by far the best)! I watched a bunch of old films I haven't seen in years, and a few bits and pieces on Netflix. I read books. I went for a 1hr walk every day and enjoyed the sight of trees and the sound of birds. I said a sincere thanks and smiled with my eyes at the people who staff the stores I shopped at once/twice a week. They have a hard job and I think it's important to convey gratitude to them.
I'd be lying if I said it was all fine, there were definitely days when I was bored stiff, depressed or otherwise not in a great place, but it was helpful to remember that everyone was in the same boat, and my sacrifice, along with everyone else's, are what is going to pull us through.
Keep your chins up. Especially you guys in the USA. What a mess you have to fix over there. I hope this year is productive.
Also in Victoria.
It bothered me how compliant everyone was with the draconian lockdown. While I was happy to go along with the initial response, when the government started the 2nd wave through incompetence I outright refused to follow any of their directions.
There was no enforcement on the 5km rule or the "ring of steel" btw. Consequently I'm one of the few people in my company not burnt out.
So far the only state that seems to know how to competently handle covid without stripping freedoms is NSW. They take the bulk of international flights and manage outbreaks very well.
All every other state in Australia seems to know how to do is knee jerk to closing borders and stripping freedom of movement at the first sign of a new case.
It bothered me how compliant everyone was with the draconian lockdown. While I was happy to go along with the initial response, when the government started the 2nd wave through incompetence I outright refused to follow any of their directions.
There was no enforcement on the 5km rule or the "ring of steel" btw. Consequently I'm one of the few people in my company not burnt out.
So far the only state that seems to know how to competently handle covid without stripping freedoms is NSW. They take the bulk of international flights and manage outbreaks very well.
All every other state in Australia seems to know how to do is knee jerk to closing borders and stripping freedom of movement at the first sign of a new case.
Are you able to elaborate on the differences between NSW and other states?
Also, when not complying with what was requested you don't appear to consider personal responsibility and just object. Is that a fair interpretation?
Also, when not complying with what was requested you don't appear to consider personal responsibility and just object. Is that a fair interpretation?
NSW had effective contact tracing from the beginning and Vic's was lacking. This let them keep going at 5-30ish cases a day without things getting out of control and hope it eventually fizzles out, as it has multiple times. It's somewhat of a double edged sword though, some restrictions are kept for longer, state borders are closed and there is always the threat of a large outbreak. Lockdowns are harsh but can be short and sharp if their early, as we've seen in other states and across the world.
It's kind of a moot point now though because the last Christmas outbreak in NSW was controlled with a lockdown of a huge chunk of Sydney along with the contact tracing. Meanwhile the cases that leaked over the border into Victoria were stamped out with effective contact tracing and (probably) our mask mandate.
It's very situational, but lockdowns have been used as both a first and last line of defense. In the early stages they help the contact tracing and testing get on top of things and in later stages they're the only thing that can bring numbers down (before vaccines).
The main factors that made a difference in Australia are lockdowns, contact tracing, testing, masks and limiting travel, both internally and externally.
It's kind of a moot point now though because the last Christmas outbreak in NSW was controlled with a lockdown of a huge chunk of Sydney along with the contact tracing. Meanwhile the cases that leaked over the border into Victoria were stamped out with effective contact tracing and (probably) our mask mandate.
It's very situational, but lockdowns have been used as both a first and last line of defense. In the early stages they help the contact tracing and testing get on top of things and in later stages they're the only thing that can bring numbers down (before vaccines).
The main factors that made a difference in Australia are lockdowns, contact tracing, testing, masks and limiting travel, both internally and externally.
NSW are still dealing with an outbreak that started a month ago, whereas Victoria got on top of theirs relatively quickly (2 weeks I think?). There are lots of factors but I think still having masks indoors in public areas and on public transport helped.
That said, I probably agree with you that Victoria's lockdown was a bit too harsh. I live in Melbourne and had to sit through it too, and I broke the curfew, 5km radius and 1 hour exercise rules frequently.
I do wish that the response was consistent across all states. I also am pretty grateful that we've come out of the whole thing as well as we did.
That said, I probably agree with you that Victoria's lockdown was a bit too harsh. I live in Melbourne and had to sit through it too, and I broke the curfew, 5km radius and 1 hour exercise rules frequently.
I do wish that the response was consistent across all states. I also am pretty grateful that we've come out of the whole thing as well as we did.
You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm not arguing that the lockdown wasn't extremely strict or that the hotel quarantine debacle wasn't negligent on the part of the government (they should have put a much better security infrastructure in place) ... BUT, when the damage is already done, we still have a virus to contain and I think the measures that were taken were appropriate and very effective.
Protesting by not wearing a mask, or breaking the distancing rules, isn't doing you or anyone else any good. The science on how not to spread a respiratory virus is grade school level.
Protesting by not wearing a mask, or breaking the distancing rules, isn't doing you or anyone else any good. The science on how not to spread a respiratory virus is grade school level.
Elected officials instituting restrictions are partly interested in saving lives, partly feeling vulnerable to attacks from the opposition that they are not being heavy-handed enough. Enough citizens wearing a mask badly or breaking distance rules can communicate to politicians that they actually have a mandate to lift restrictions instead of maintaining or strengthening them.
I am in a country where over half the population now opposes lockdown and is more concerned about its side-effects. Some are outright breaking the rules to send a message, but most people fear fines, and so the only means they feel they have to communicate to elected officials and candidates for office is observing the restrictions in a half-hearted way. This en masse failure to respect the rules properly is apparently working -- sources in the party in power claim that the party is dreading being trounced at the polls for this lockdown and trying to back away from it.
I am in a country where over half the population now opposes lockdown and is more concerned about its side-effects. Some are outright breaking the rules to send a message, but most people fear fines, and so the only means they feel they have to communicate to elected officials and candidates for office is observing the restrictions in a half-hearted way. This en masse failure to respect the rules properly is apparently working -- sources in the party in power claim that the party is dreading being trounced at the polls for this lockdown and trying to back away from it.
I'd like to see a source on that "over half" - it seems like it's very dependant on who you're talking to. I've only met one of my extended friends group who's been against the lockdowns.
Anecdotal:
None of my rich friends in tech or academia are against it. A few small tech business owners are.
Blue collars I know are all against it.
Blue collars I know are all against it.
"Over half are now opposed" is the claim now made in respected Polish news sources across the ideological spectrum. People were initially somewhat approving of the lockdown last year, but the ruling party made a misstep when they extended it after it was meant to expire.
Do the elected officials in your country not have telephones or mailboxes?
Not really. Not all countries are like the US, UK or Canada where elected representatives claim to welcome letters and phone calls from their constituents. In much of Eastern Europe politicians are perceived as being quite uninterested in hearing from their constituents, and even going out of their way to avoid contact with them after being elected. The average citizen feels pretty powerless, and people resort to other ways of showing their demands and rewarding candidates that try to meet them.
Absolutely and I certainly wore the mask in public.
Parroting that hard lockdown was the only way to manage it while the state next door found smarter ways to manage things without stripping freedom was where I drew the line.
There's only so much incompetence one can take before you just start ignoring direction.
Parroting that hard lockdown was the only way to manage it while the state next door found smarter ways to manage things without stripping freedom was where I drew the line.
There's only so much incompetence one can take before you just start ignoring direction.
That state next door locked down a large portion of their largest city over Christmas. Their contact tracing is/was certainly better, but lets not pretend they haven't hit limits to it's effectiveness as well.
Well put..
In Victoria, also bothered by how compliant everyone was.
The lockdown was extremely hard. My vices tripled and I am still trying to reign them back in. I've had a low key depression since June last year and still trying to shake it.
As the parent comment said, they were an introvert, there are lots of people who aren't. (me)
In my little suburb, it looks like 10 small businesses had to shutdown while all the mega stores were allowed to continue operation.
I feel sorry for anyone who had a less than average housemate, stuck in a place with people for that long causes tension regardless if you like the person.
I don't see any problem with people who broke the rules. The government told us from the start that we were just flattening the curve but then without telling us extended the lock-downs in some attempt for an elimination strategy.
I personally don't think anyone in the world will ever know or feel what happened here in Melbourne so I expect to be down-voted also.
----
Just going to add what our stage 4 lockdown looked like which kinda lasted for 2 months at it's worst.
- 8pm-5am curfew (you have to be at home)
- no visitors
- 5km radius (this lasted for what felt like 6 months)
- you had to wear your mask as soon as you left your house (this went for months, we still have to wear masks in shops (even though we have zero cases))
- you could only go to the super market once per day, and you had to go by yourself
- you were only allowed outside for exercise for 1 hour (with 1 person)
- lots of shops forced you to give your details over and some demanded that you sanitize your hands (these are two things I didn't want to do for my own reasons)
- no gyms, hospo, group events, activities etc
- increase of police powers, fines around $1600
-----
We also locked a bunch of social housing people in their apartments for two weeks. They didn't even have balconies, just small ugly windows. I hope someone eventually gets sued for that decision. -> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08-25/coronavirus-melbourne...
The lockdown was extremely hard. My vices tripled and I am still trying to reign them back in. I've had a low key depression since June last year and still trying to shake it.
As the parent comment said, they were an introvert, there are lots of people who aren't. (me)
In my little suburb, it looks like 10 small businesses had to shutdown while all the mega stores were allowed to continue operation.
I feel sorry for anyone who had a less than average housemate, stuck in a place with people for that long causes tension regardless if you like the person.
I don't see any problem with people who broke the rules. The government told us from the start that we were just flattening the curve but then without telling us extended the lock-downs in some attempt for an elimination strategy.
I personally don't think anyone in the world will ever know or feel what happened here in Melbourne so I expect to be down-voted also.
----
Just going to add what our stage 4 lockdown looked like which kinda lasted for 2 months at it's worst.
- 8pm-5am curfew (you have to be at home)
- no visitors
- 5km radius (this lasted for what felt like 6 months)
- you had to wear your mask as soon as you left your house (this went for months, we still have to wear masks in shops (even though we have zero cases))
- you could only go to the super market once per day, and you had to go by yourself
- you were only allowed outside for exercise for 1 hour (with 1 person)
- lots of shops forced you to give your details over and some demanded that you sanitize your hands (these are two things I didn't want to do for my own reasons)
- no gyms, hospo, group events, activities etc
- increase of police powers, fines around $1600
-----
We also locked a bunch of social housing people in their apartments for two weeks. They didn't even have balconies, just small ugly windows. I hope someone eventually gets sued for that decision. -> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08-25/coronavirus-melbourne...
I've been doing a large part of what you mention voluntarily for nearly the whole time and I'm curious what you take issue with
- 8pm-5am curfew (you have to be at home)
- no visitors - 5km radius (this lasted for what felt like 6 months)
- you had to wear your mask as soon as you left your house (this went for months, we still have to wear masks in shops (even though we have zero cases))
- you could only go to the super market once per day, and you had to go by yourself
- you were only allowed outside for exercise for 1 hour (with 1 person)
- no gyms, hospo, group events, activities etc
These all seem reasonable in a pandemic to me. Considering yalls success, I would say extremely reasonable. What is the alternative? A half assed version of those (my state imposed a weak curfew, bans to arbitrary activity, but nothing really targeted at preventing COVID). I think there is a particular horror in the current US (and elsewhere) experience where it quite literally feels like a lottery of who among your contacts will get it next. Is two months of an admitted harsh lockdown not worth avoiding that?
- lots of shops forced you to give your details over and some demanded that you sanitize your hands (these are two things I didn't want to do for my own reasons)
- increase of police powers, fines around $1600
That I find more concerning, and agree with you
- 8pm-5am curfew (you have to be at home)
- no visitors - 5km radius (this lasted for what felt like 6 months)
- you had to wear your mask as soon as you left your house (this went for months, we still have to wear masks in shops (even though we have zero cases))
- you could only go to the super market once per day, and you had to go by yourself
- you were only allowed outside for exercise for 1 hour (with 1 person)
- no gyms, hospo, group events, activities etc
These all seem reasonable in a pandemic to me. Considering yalls success, I would say extremely reasonable. What is the alternative? A half assed version of those (my state imposed a weak curfew, bans to arbitrary activity, but nothing really targeted at preventing COVID). I think there is a particular horror in the current US (and elsewhere) experience where it quite literally feels like a lottery of who among your contacts will get it next. Is two months of an admitted harsh lockdown not worth avoiding that?
- lots of shops forced you to give your details over and some demanded that you sanitize your hands (these are two things I didn't want to do for my own reasons)
- increase of police powers, fines around $1600
That I find more concerning, and agree with you
Same. I've been doing this voluntarily since March. Does this suck? Yes. Is it better than dying or killing somebody? Fuck yes. I don't understand how it's even a question.
>Is it better than dying or killing somebody? Fuck yes.
I find the self certainty in the phrasing there so shocking. Why can't you do this consistently with all communicable viruses that call? How do you know you're not being completely arbitrary deciding "just this one"
I find the self certainty in the phrasing there so shocking. Why can't you do this consistently with all communicable viruses that call? How do you know you're not being completely arbitrary deciding "just this one"
If I arbitrarily save lives, that's still saved lives. If I arbitrarily reduce the risk of causing harm, that's still reduced risk of harm. Those are good. I value results over consistency. I definitely value results over analysis paralysis, over waiting for a perfection of clarity not available this side of the grave.
And as best I know, I do "do this" with all potentially fatal communicable diseases. I get the flu shot every year. I even do it with non-fatal diseases as best I can. When I'm sick, I stay the hell home. I exercise good hygiene and good food safety.
And I have no idea why people don't do otherwise. All it takes is valuing others' health and survival.
And as best I know, I do "do this" with all potentially fatal communicable diseases. I get the flu shot every year. I even do it with non-fatal diseases as best I can. When I'm sick, I stay the hell home. I exercise good hygiene and good food safety.
And I have no idea why people don't do otherwise. All it takes is valuing others' health and survival.
If you have any symptoms of a communicable disease you should wear a mask.
The fact that we started doing this in 2020 is the problem, we should have done this every flu season.
It works, it reduces transmission. Asian countries have been doing this for years, it’s an expected norm.
The rest of the measures are debatable, but wearing a mask when you’re sick should not be.
The fact that we started doing this in 2020 is the problem, we should have done this every flu season.
It works, it reduces transmission. Asian countries have been doing this for years, it’s an expected norm.
The rest of the measures are debatable, but wearing a mask when you’re sick should not be.
I was caught completely by surprise when the huge mask resistance in the US emerged. I found it absurd, here you are making an ordeal of holding doors for people, like it makes you a great person, a useless gesture, and meanwhile the singular act of goodwill we have needed from others in 100 years is a freaking mask, and it is "robbing you of your freedoms".
I am biased though. I've always had a huge admiration of Japan and resentment that I couldn't wear a mask when sick, because it is illegal in many jurisdictions in the US for anyone over 18 to wear a mask as well as those under when it's not halloween.
I highly doubt after the pandemic masks are going to suddenly be legalized. Cops appear to just be ignoring the law right now, which is absurd.
I am biased though. I've always had a huge admiration of Japan and resentment that I couldn't wear a mask when sick, because it is illegal in many jurisdictions in the US for anyone over 18 to wear a mask as well as those under when it's not halloween.
I highly doubt after the pandemic masks are going to suddenly be legalized. Cops appear to just be ignoring the law right now, which is absurd.
Because we can look at countries who have done bad and go, yeah we could be like US/UK with all their actual deaths.
Your reply didn't really address the question. There are many communicable diseases that kill, if you're being consistent with this save every life possible approach, you also need to stay in your home any time the flu is going around. Do those deaths not count? Tens of thousands of dead are ok, but a hundred thousand is not? How do you decide which lives are worth saving when you throw out these caviler implied moral condemnations of anyone who wouldn't live in a state of permanent lockdown to save lives? that's the question. I'm asking this due to your super self certain wording.
Basically, I would never make such absolute statements because saving lives is always an opportunity cost. Human life is only so long, if I stay in lockdown a year to save a stranger, I might miss the last Thanksgiving with a parent or grandparent in their last year on the planet and never know until it is too late. That's not a trivial cost when you lock down a million to save one, while all one million lose a piece of their finite lives forever.
Basically, I would never make such absolute statements because saving lives is always an opportunity cost. Human life is only so long, if I stay in lockdown a year to save a stranger, I might miss the last Thanksgiving with a parent or grandparent in their last year on the planet and never know until it is too late. That's not a trivial cost when you lock down a million to save one, while all one million lose a piece of their finite lives forever.
You are correct that I'd phrase this differently were I writing an abstract philosophy treatise or an analytical public health paper. I was writing in a casual discussion forum about what I am currently doing in the middle of a global public health crisis that has killed 2 million people, mostly needlessly. So yes, I'm going to write clearly and frankly.
And my moral condemnation for people is absolutely not cavalier. I actively and vigorously condemn the legion of assholes who think mild personal inconvenience is worse than mass death plus a much greater swathe of serious illness. I also condemn the societal moral failures that have impeded a sensible coordinated response, especially the politicians who, having created and sustained an underclass, now insist for ideological reasons that their suffering should be deepened while at the same time making the pandemic worse for everyone. It's both moral idiocy and moral obscenity. At best, it's obliviousness or IGMFU. But more often, as Serwer wrote, "The cruelty is the point."
And my moral condemnation for people is absolutely not cavalier. I actively and vigorously condemn the legion of assholes who think mild personal inconvenience is worse than mass death plus a much greater swathe of serious illness. I also condemn the societal moral failures that have impeded a sensible coordinated response, especially the politicians who, having created and sustained an underclass, now insist for ideological reasons that their suffering should be deepened while at the same time making the pandemic worse for everyone. It's both moral idiocy and moral obscenity. At best, it's obliviousness or IGMFU. But more often, as Serwer wrote, "The cruelty is the point."
That's a great question. While I'm not the person who you asked, I'd like to get some examples from you. Which other pandemic outbreak are you referring to? Or are you referring to some communicable disease which isn't a pandemic?
I'm mostly thinking of the flu. I actually don't know if there are any other viruses that take 1000s of lives in the average year. I also don't know why covid is classified as a pandemic and the flu is just normal. What is the criteria? A specific percentage of deaths? Some specific combination of R factor and rate of deaths? Mainly, I think it is clear that if you say 1% deaths justifies massive action but .01% does not, the deaths are still all human lives and so it is literally a claim that decides how much one life is worth. It is an economic calculus on human life, and so in my mind absolutely deserves an objective justification for deciding.
One example analogy would be increased airline safety regulation. More regulation increases ticket prices. Supply and demand means a high price will ultimately cause a family to decide to make a road trip over flying for economic reasons. The chance of dying in a multi hour car drive is far higher than in one hour on a commercial aircraft. You can at least use numbers in this case to say if new regulation is justified based on the expected lives saved.
One example analogy would be increased airline safety regulation. More regulation increases ticket prices. Supply and demand means a high price will ultimately cause a family to decide to make a road trip over flying for economic reasons. The chance of dying in a multi hour car drive is far higher than in one hour on a commercial aircraft. You can at least use numbers in this case to say if new regulation is justified based on the expected lives saved.
Apart from the higher numbers a good reason to be concerned about the novel coronavirus is the "novel" part. The 1918 pandemic was initially known as the three day flu but the second wave mutated into a 12 hour death sentence.
Why don't old people just quarantine?
Why are you so certain of your viewpoint? Other people can't have different opinions to you?
Why are you so certain of your viewpoint? Other people can't have different opinions to you?
I feel like the demonstrated effectiveness of quarantining old people is the reason you can't do that. It sounds great on paper, but it turns out that homes are staffed with lots of casual workers who work multiple jobs, and keeping covid out of them is near impossible.
Could this be addressed? Sure. Should it in future? Probably. But we don't get a whole lot of tries when there's a pandemic going around. It didn't work at first, how many attempts do you have to give it before you say "we need to solve that next time, right now we need a different solution"?
Could this be addressed? Sure. Should it in future? Probably. But we don't get a whole lot of tries when there's a pandemic going around. It didn't work at first, how many attempts do you have to give it before you say "we need to solve that next time, right now we need a different solution"?
For starters, it doesn't just kill old people.
And I'm not concerned with other people's opinions. I'm concerned with their actions. If somebody follows public health guidelines, they can have whatever opinion they want. If they're out helping transmit a disease killing millions and wrecking the economy, I still don't care what their opinions are.
And I'm not concerned with other people's opinions. I'm concerned with their actions. If somebody follows public health guidelines, they can have whatever opinion they want. If they're out helping transmit a disease killing millions and wrecking the economy, I still don't care what their opinions are.
It doesn't just kill old people but it would be more sensible policy to note that it overwhelming kills older people -> https://www.health.gov.au/resources/covid-19-deaths-by-age-g...
Everybody is aware. And many countries did try to keep everything open while protecting old people. And it worked exactly nowhere.
But once the human tragedy became apparent, once the people in charge visited one or two hospitals, once it became clear that many people, while surviving, are left disabled - well - opinions changed.
You are free to have your opinion, of course.
But once the human tragedy became apparent, once the people in charge visited one or two hospitals, once it became clear that many people, while surviving, are left disabled - well - opinions changed.
You are free to have your opinion, of course.
Just the side-effects of COVID are bad enough, even for young people. The scientific reports quickly squashed my idea of live vaccination in March. It seems the media mostly focuses on the deaths since these are measurable and deaths are visceral, but maybe they should focus more on the general dangers of COVID for everyone.
How feasible is complete isolation for those who are immune compromised and elderly? How is the national coverage for services relating to basic necessities and the ability to those in this group to access them?
Given that this is a highly infectious virus, a reasonable person will understand that aside from those in this at risk group, every external point of contact is an additional risk. Should they also do the same?
The point I try to make is that with how connected our societies are, the interconnected nature enables the spread to the point where a single group quarantining is ineffective.
Think of it in terms of a spreading fire. The more a fire burns nearby, the higher the chances it will spread even to an isolated area or overcome fire resistance measures.
Given that this is a highly infectious virus, a reasonable person will understand that aside from those in this at risk group, every external point of contact is an additional risk. Should they also do the same?
The point I try to make is that with how connected our societies are, the interconnected nature enables the spread to the point where a single group quarantining is ineffective.
Think of it in terms of a spreading fire. The more a fire burns nearby, the higher the chances it will spread even to an isolated area or overcome fire resistance measures.
> Why are you so certain of your viewpoint?
because the lockdown in Victoria worked.
> Other people can't have different opinions to you?
Are those opinions shared by the scientific community?
because the lockdown in Victoria worked.
> Other people can't have different opinions to you?
Are those opinions shared by the scientific community?
I just posted it in another comment.
Co-authored by Donald Henderson who was credited with ridding the world of smallpox talking about the effectiveness of lock downs -> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552...
Co-authored by Donald Henderson who was credited with ridding the world of smallpox talking about the effectiveness of lock downs -> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552...
> Screening passengers at borders or closing air or rail
hubs. Experience has shown that these actions are not effective and could have serious adverse consequences;
thus, they are not recommended.
So his solution is to not screen people and let everyone in?
> Quarantine. As experience shows, there is no basis for recommending quarantine either of groups or individuals
So his recommendation is to let people with virus loose in the community. You really believe that?
Maybe you need to listen to people who have experience with the flu and other corona viruses instead someone with small pox experience.
So his solution is to not screen people and let everyone in?
> Quarantine. As experience shows, there is no basis for recommending quarantine either of groups or individuals
So his recommendation is to let people with virus loose in the community. You really believe that?
Maybe you need to listen to people who have experience with the flu and other corona viruses instead someone with small pox experience.
Lockdowns didn't exist in the literature prior to march 2020. This is all experimental clap trap being sold as science.
No that is wrong. Just read about the Spanish Flu.
Two days later, the city shut down most public gatherings and quarantined victims in their homes. The cases slowed.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/2020/03/how-citie...
Two days later, the city shut down most public gatherings and quarantined victims in their homes. The cases slowed.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/2020/03/how-citie...
Edit. I see that you were probably responding to "Are those opinions shared by the scientific community?", in which case yes you make a valid point. However it still holds that this paper was from 2006, we're in a much better position today in many places to accomplish work remotely. Many assumptions are in fact not met. I'll keep my original comment as is below:
It is immaterial that D. A. co-authored that back in 2006. It was a different time, and the measures that he is professing against have _demonstrably_ proven to be effective.
The paper gives suggestions based on many assumptions that don't hold considering the implemented rules. But they're just suggestions. Offering this paper in the face of demonstrable evidence that these measures do in fact work seems a little irrational in my perspective.
It is immaterial that D. A. co-authored that back in 2006. It was a different time, and the measures that he is professing against have _demonstrably_ proven to be effective.
The paper gives suggestions based on many assumptions that don't hold considering the implemented rules. But they're just suggestions. Offering this paper in the face of demonstrable evidence that these measures do in fact work seems a little irrational in my perspective.
Why is simply being effective the bar for lockdowns? Lots of things are effective that aren't used because we understand that there are tradeoffs and other policies can bring similar effectiveness with less side effects. as the saying goes: "Any idiot can build a bridge. It takes an engineer to build a bridge that is just strong enough to stand given the weight it's meant to bear."
It worked in the sense that one way to shutdown a computer is to throw it out of the windows.
Look at NSW for how its done. Reasonable sensible decisions taken over months with contact tracing that actually works.
Look at NSW for how its done. Reasonable sensible decisions taken over months with contact tracing that actually works.
> Reasonable sensible decisions taken over months with contact tracing that actually works.
yes and Victoria's contract tracing was not good at that time and the virus was spreading in the community so the right solution after that was to have a lockdown.
yes and Victoria's contract tracing was not good at that time and the virus was spreading in the community so the right solution after that was to have a lockdown.
[deleted]
> - you had to wear your mask as soon as you left your house
> - you were only allowed outside for exercise for 1 hour (with 1 person)
> These all seem reasonable in a pandemic to me.
Not really; no evidence has ever suggested that outdoor spread is enough of an issue that either of these policies make much of a difference.
> - you were only allowed outside for exercise for 1 hour (with 1 person)
> These all seem reasonable in a pandemic to me.
Not really; no evidence has ever suggested that outdoor spread is enough of an issue that either of these policies make much of a difference.
In the US, compliance is not high enough and regions are not coordinated enough to actually make an impact on the danger level. So from the perspective of someone following the rules, the rules are here to stay through mass vaccination. How do you feel about living like this for a minimum of 18 months?
I have made my peace with doing that- it's already been 10 months. And I acknowledge I am extremely lucky to be in a situation where I can do that, and do it in a way that I feel is sustainable (for me personally).
My point isn't that "oh this is so easy". Instead, my point is in a heartbeat I would trade 2 months of extreme lockdown to avoid what we see in the United States. I know that isn't/wasn't possible for reasons you describe but it hurts to see someone who lives in a region where they crushed COVID complain about what was done
My point isn't that "oh this is so easy". Instead, my point is in a heartbeat I would trade 2 months of extreme lockdown to avoid what we see in the United States. I know that isn't/wasn't possible for reasons you describe but it hurts to see someone who lives in a region where they crushed COVID complain about what was done
I'm not convinced Victoria did anything special to beat the virus, aka I'm not convinced lock downs actually work.
It could of just been;
- seasonality
- Victorians already had antibodies from other strains from years prior
- our population may have not be as old as other places
- we could just be a healthier society in general
- we don't have subways
etc
But that is a rabbit hole discussion I won't have the time to go into;
I think any information about Covid is just noise at this point, everyone (including me) just comes up with some shallow statements about what is going on with just a few data points.
Every region of the world reports numbers on everything differently;
- What test kits do you use, and what are their +/- rates
- How do you report somebody died? (assumed covid, had covid, died from covid)
- When does an active case become inactive?
- How long do you think it incubates for?
etc
There is probably another 100+ important questions to ask.
And then ask all those questions to different states/countries and all the answers are different.
Yet we compare countries all the time.
HIV/AIDS had a similar problem, you could have AID's in America, fly to Australia and we would of reported you as maybe not having AID's.
"Even AIDS itself has a different definition depending on where you’re standing. In the U.S., AIDS is someone whose little virus-fighters, their CD4 cells, are below 200 per cubic mm of blood (normal is 500-1,500) or who is already showing symptoms. The WHO definition is anyone with a CD4 count below 350. In most European countries, you need to have an AIDS-related infection to be diagnosed with AIDS."
https://newrepublic.com/article/117789/aids-data-country-why...
Pretty good article, more or less my stance on Covid at the moment.
So when we say the US had 400k deaths and Australia had 3k, I am extremely sceptical that we are reporting things in the same way at all.
Edit: Co-authored paper by Donald Henderson who was credited with ridding the world of smallpox talking about the effectiveness of lock downs -> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552...
It could of just been;
- seasonality
- Victorians already had antibodies from other strains from years prior
- our population may have not be as old as other places
- we could just be a healthier society in general
- we don't have subways
etc
But that is a rabbit hole discussion I won't have the time to go into;
I think any information about Covid is just noise at this point, everyone (including me) just comes up with some shallow statements about what is going on with just a few data points.
Every region of the world reports numbers on everything differently;
- What test kits do you use, and what are their +/- rates
- How do you report somebody died? (assumed covid, had covid, died from covid)
- When does an active case become inactive?
- How long do you think it incubates for?
etc
There is probably another 100+ important questions to ask.
And then ask all those questions to different states/countries and all the answers are different.
Yet we compare countries all the time.
HIV/AIDS had a similar problem, you could have AID's in America, fly to Australia and we would of reported you as maybe not having AID's.
"Even AIDS itself has a different definition depending on where you’re standing. In the U.S., AIDS is someone whose little virus-fighters, their CD4 cells, are below 200 per cubic mm of blood (normal is 500-1,500) or who is already showing symptoms. The WHO definition is anyone with a CD4 count below 350. In most European countries, you need to have an AIDS-related infection to be diagnosed with AIDS."
https://newrepublic.com/article/117789/aids-data-country-why...
Pretty good article, more or less my stance on Covid at the moment.
So when we say the US had 400k deaths and Australia had 3k, I am extremely sceptical that we are reporting things in the same way at all.
Edit: Co-authored paper by Donald Henderson who was credited with ridding the world of smallpox talking about the effectiveness of lock downs -> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552...
Melbourne went from a peak of 725 daily cases to achieving 60 days with zero local transmission. Suggesting that all the lockdown measures were ineffective, and that eradication was entirely the result of circumstantial factors, doesn't pass the sniff test for me.
Given that the reduction in cases fitted closely with expected modelling, and only began after stage 4 lockdown was enacted, it's a logical conclusion that at least some measures of the lockdown were effective at containing the spread.
That's not to say that none of your suggested reasons weren't a factor, or that every single one of the lockdown measures were effective. But on balance, the lockdown and other governmental measures were effective.
Montreal is a city of similar size, wealth, and demographics to Melbourne, and has 88k confirmed cases, compared to Melbourne's 20k. That kind of difference is more than discrepancies in testing methodology and case definitions. Incidentally, ten days ago the city went into lockdown (although less strict that Melbourne), so if in a few weeks there's a subsequent drop in cases, I think that it will be pretty safe to make the conclusion that lockdowns work.
Given that the reduction in cases fitted closely with expected modelling, and only began after stage 4 lockdown was enacted, it's a logical conclusion that at least some measures of the lockdown were effective at containing the spread.
That's not to say that none of your suggested reasons weren't a factor, or that every single one of the lockdown measures were effective. But on balance, the lockdown and other governmental measures were effective.
Montreal is a city of similar size, wealth, and demographics to Melbourne, and has 88k confirmed cases, compared to Melbourne's 20k. That kind of difference is more than discrepancies in testing methodology and case definitions. Incidentally, ten days ago the city went into lockdown (although less strict that Melbourne), so if in a few weeks there's a subsequent drop in cases, I think that it will be pretty safe to make the conclusion that lockdowns work.
seasonality - We were getting on top of things at the coldest time of year.
Victorians already had antibodies - absolutely no evidence of this and plenty of evidence to the contrary, if we had antibodies the second wave wouldn't have happened.
we could just be a healthier - Healthy people still get covid.
we don't have subways - Plenty of packed commuter trains and trams, having them underground makes no difference.
Aside from all that, the case numbers correlate extremely well with when the lockdowns started and when their severity increased (https://chrisbillington.net/COVID_VIC.html), there are zero other rational explanations.
Victorians already had antibodies - absolutely no evidence of this and plenty of evidence to the contrary, if we had antibodies the second wave wouldn't have happened.
we could just be a healthier - Healthy people still get covid.
we don't have subways - Plenty of packed commuter trains and trams, having them underground makes no difference.
Aside from all that, the case numbers correlate extremely well with when the lockdowns started and when their severity increased (https://chrisbillington.net/COVID_VIC.html), there are zero other rational explanations.
I like the link you shared, thanks. (Though the graph still could have easily trended the way it did for many other reasons)
Here is an interesting paper too -> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552... (Co-authored by Donald Henderson who was credited with ridding the world of smallpox) (talks about the pros and mostly cons of lockdowns)
Edit: Just adding a link to a paper that suggests T-Cell immunity from previous beta corona viruses might be helping -> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2550-z
Here is an interesting paper too -> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552... (Co-authored by Donald Henderson who was credited with ridding the world of smallpox) (talks about the pros and mostly cons of lockdowns)
Edit: Just adding a link to a paper that suggests T-Cell immunity from previous beta corona viruses might be helping -> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2550-z
I don't know what grayed-out text means on HN, but I hope it isn't flagged. This is an interesting response and pretty much sums up how many people are feeling. No, it isn't empirical data. No, it doesn't pass a 'sniff test'. But it is honest, and the state of Covid information is absolutely spot-on (Covid debate at my house! Bring your own data points!).
Lockdowns may work. They may not. Nobody has a clue, despite all the studies, due to so many confounding factors and ways and means of measurement.
Lockdowns may work. They may not. Nobody has a clue, despite all the studies, due to so many confounding factors and ways and means of measurement.
As a counter to your anecdote, I managed to conquer most of my vices during lockdown. I cut my drinking to a couple of beers a week, stopped doing recreational drugs, checked out of a bunch of toxic interpersonal relationships, and sorted my finances out.
I'm not sure what your situation is, but I'd highly recommend going to therapy or finding some other form of support. Signing up for therapy during lockdown was possibly the best decision I've ever made. It was something that I should have done years ago, and finally managed to do it last year, but having that extra support during lockdown was a huge help too.
I don't want to go into more detail publicly, but I can send you an email with some links/resources/advice if you want?
I'm not sure what your situation is, but I'd highly recommend going to therapy or finding some other form of support. Signing up for therapy during lockdown was possibly the best decision I've ever made. It was something that I should have done years ago, and finally managed to do it last year, but having that extra support during lockdown was a huge help too.
I don't want to go into more detail publicly, but I can send you an email with some links/resources/advice if you want?
> also bothered by how compliant everyone was.
You are also bothered by the fact there is no community transmission in Victoria anymore or you prefer the US version where you just let the virus loose?
You are also bothered by the fact there is no community transmission in Victoria anymore or you prefer the US version where you just let the virus loose?
> the US version where you just let the virus loose
Herd immunity by August, with or without vaccines.
Herd immunity by August, with or without vaccines.
August 2022?
Cost of how many lives?
Unknowable.
I get what you're saying, but there is an upper bound of roughly 1M in the US, depending on what the true case fatality rate is.
That's cute. Try living in a country where similar restrictions are in effect. You had it easy and people complying was the only reason it worked so that you can get back to something resembling normal now.
Such as?
The UK. No curfews yet although its being discussed in government now. We are to leave the house once per week for shopping only.
The UK restrictions are not this. You can leave the house whenever you like if you have “reasonable excuse”. There are no explicit restrictions on how often, how long for, and how far and where you can go.
The UK government has been saying one thing, and enacting another in law, which leads to this one of confusion, but what you’ve stated there has never even been said as far as I know.
The regulations: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1374/contents
Amendments for 2021: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2021/8/contents/made
The UK government has been saying one thing, and enacting another in law, which leads to this one of confusion, but what you’ve stated there has never even been said as far as I know.
The regulations: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1374/contents
Amendments for 2021: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2021/8/contents/made
In the UK. Went out several times in the last week for a long walk. It's allowed for exercise.
Streets were fairly busy with people.
The local town square was packed, every bench spot was taken. Seems people have decided lockdown 3 is for hanging out at the local square. Pancakes were on sale.
At the same time, hospital ICUs are fuller than they have ever been, some hospitals are having to reduce oxygen supply per patient due to overload, and the death rate is higher than it's ever been.
And people are outside those hospitals protesting without masks that the pandemic is a hoax and hospitals are "empty". What a thing for doctors and nurses coming off shift to walk into.
Streets were fairly busy with people.
The local town square was packed, every bench spot was taken. Seems people have decided lockdown 3 is for hanging out at the local square. Pancakes were on sale.
At the same time, hospital ICUs are fuller than they have ever been, some hospitals are having to reduce oxygen supply per patient due to overload, and the death rate is higher than it's ever been.
And people are outside those hospitals protesting without masks that the pandemic is a hoax and hospitals are "empty". What a thing for doctors and nurses coming off shift to walk into.
[deleted]
Better one serious lockdown and then having some peace of mind than an endless series of half-assed lockdowns like in Europe.
I've lost track of what "lockdown" we're in now and the people are getting really tired of the perceived incompetence of the government. We also royally screwed-up the vaccine management and it will take at least until end of summer to vaccinate enough of the population.
I've lost track of what "lockdown" we're in now and the people are getting really tired of the perceived incompetence of the government. We also royally screwed-up the vaccine management and it will take at least until end of summer to vaccinate enough of the population.
I don't understand this take. I went the same Melbourne lockdown and am extremely grateful for how the government handled it. I have colleagues in the US and, while they're not under strict and enforced lockdown, they've had to effectively self lockdown since the start of the pandemic. They also have 400,000 deaths and no real end in sight for when some normality might resume.
I'm happy with the measures taken, even if they were a bit draconian, because now I can, without needing to worry too much, do normal things like going to visit friends/family and going out to restaurants/cafes. It sucked to have a curfew and only be able to get out of the house for 1 hour per day, sure, but it would suck much more if we were in a perpetual limbo state with only the promise of a vaccine to hope for.
I'm happy with the measures taken, even if they were a bit draconian, because now I can, without needing to worry too much, do normal things like going to visit friends/family and going out to restaurants/cafes. It sucked to have a curfew and only be able to get out of the house for 1 hour per day, sure, but it would suck much more if we were in a perpetual limbo state with only the promise of a vaccine to hope for.
I’m a USAian and I’d trade our situation for yours in a heartbeat. What a mess we have over here! Likely avoidable if our leaders were not so incompetent and cowardly and if our population wasn’t a bunch of selfish morons. 400k avoidable deaths.
I agree. I have been on "self lockdown" since March, in the USA. I've been observing all of the following since then:
> - 8pm-5am curfew (you have to be at home)
Check.
> - no visitors
Other than my girlfriend, who broke up with me 3 months ago, check.
> - 5km radius (this lasted for what felt like 6 months)
Not really all that practical, but I certainly haven't been travelling about to strange places. I'd say my radius has been about 90% within the 5km, except for things I couldn't do within that radius, such as buying things that literally aren't available within 5km. In any case, I take my own car, by myself, and always wear a mask, so it's no more dangerous than going to the grocery store 1 mile away from me.
> - you had to wear your mask as soon as you left your house (this went for months, we still have to wear masks in shops (even though we have zero cases))
Check, mostly. I don't wear it when I take my dog for a walk, but I also never run into anyone else when doing so.
> - you could only go to the super market once per day, and you had to go by yourself
Check.
> - you were only allowed outside for exercise for 1 hour (with 1 person)
Check, mostly. See above dog walks.
> - no gyms, hospo, group events, activities etc
100% been avoiding all of these things since March, except for a trip to Tahoe in June with my then girlfriend, where we met up with her best friend. Other than said best friend, I was never within 6 feet of anyone else, although I was really nervous about how few people were wearing masks. We probably should not have made that trip, even though none of the three of us got sick.
I wish they had just done these things for 2-3 months:
> - lots of shops forced you to give your details over and some demanded that you sanitize your hands (these are two things I didn't want to do for my own reasons)
> - increase of police powers, fines around $1600
The police bit is the part that really pisses me off. Technically, it's a misdemeanor to have a social gathering right now, but local police won't do shit about it. There have been 2 gatherings in my 6 unit apartment building during the time it's been banned. I don't want to get COVID because other people in my building are idiots.
Proper use of lockdowns would have been to reduce cases to the point where contact tracing and testing could take over. Unfortunately, we haven't implemented those measures, either. To quote Death to 2020, "I'd say it was a train wreck and a shit show, but that would be unfair to trains and shit."
> - 8pm-5am curfew (you have to be at home)
Check.
> - no visitors
Other than my girlfriend, who broke up with me 3 months ago, check.
> - 5km radius (this lasted for what felt like 6 months)
Not really all that practical, but I certainly haven't been travelling about to strange places. I'd say my radius has been about 90% within the 5km, except for things I couldn't do within that radius, such as buying things that literally aren't available within 5km. In any case, I take my own car, by myself, and always wear a mask, so it's no more dangerous than going to the grocery store 1 mile away from me.
> - you had to wear your mask as soon as you left your house (this went for months, we still have to wear masks in shops (even though we have zero cases))
Check, mostly. I don't wear it when I take my dog for a walk, but I also never run into anyone else when doing so.
> - you could only go to the super market once per day, and you had to go by yourself
Check.
> - you were only allowed outside for exercise for 1 hour (with 1 person)
Check, mostly. See above dog walks.
> - no gyms, hospo, group events, activities etc
100% been avoiding all of these things since March, except for a trip to Tahoe in June with my then girlfriend, where we met up with her best friend. Other than said best friend, I was never within 6 feet of anyone else, although I was really nervous about how few people were wearing masks. We probably should not have made that trip, even though none of the three of us got sick.
I wish they had just done these things for 2-3 months:
> - lots of shops forced you to give your details over and some demanded that you sanitize your hands (these are two things I didn't want to do for my own reasons)
> - increase of police powers, fines around $1600
The police bit is the part that really pisses me off. Technically, it's a misdemeanor to have a social gathering right now, but local police won't do shit about it. There have been 2 gatherings in my 6 unit apartment building during the time it's been banned. I don't want to get COVID because other people in my building are idiots.
Proper use of lockdowns would have been to reduce cases to the point where contact tracing and testing could take over. Unfortunately, we haven't implemented those measures, either. To quote Death to 2020, "I'd say it was a train wreck and a shit show, but that would be unfair to trains and shit."
> with only the promise of a vaccine to hope for.
US here - I'm still not 100% convinced enough people will take it. Even this week I'm hearing and reading and talking to people who are telling me they'll refuse a vaccine. Yet... also complaining about a coming "2 tier" system where people who aren't vaccinated will be locked out of some parts of society... but then also refusing a vaccine because... (no direct clear answer beyond "rights").
So... we have the vaccine to hope for, but if not enough people get it, I'd think new strains might continue to develop and infect more folks. :/
US here - I'm still not 100% convinced enough people will take it. Even this week I'm hearing and reading and talking to people who are telling me they'll refuse a vaccine. Yet... also complaining about a coming "2 tier" system where people who aren't vaccinated will be locked out of some parts of society... but then also refusing a vaccine because... (no direct clear answer beyond "rights").
So... we have the vaccine to hope for, but if not enough people get it, I'd think new strains might continue to develop and infect more folks. :/
I've been doing basically this voluntarily since the middle of March. I haven't stepped inside a building except a Walgreens once to get a flu vaccine.
My own parents have only visited twice, and we only visited outside my front yard. I haven't seen any friends in person except for two brief times when they dropped something off at the house, and we talked outside with masks on.
But then again, I live in the US, and we just officially crossed 400,000 deaths due to the virus, compared to less than 1,000 in Australia, it looks like. I can understand it would be more difficult to adhere to when the virus is so under control where you're at, but those lockdowns might be a big reason why.
My own parents have only visited twice, and we only visited outside my front yard. I haven't seen any friends in person except for two brief times when they dropped something off at the house, and we talked outside with masks on.
But then again, I live in the US, and we just officially crossed 400,000 deaths due to the virus, compared to less than 1,000 in Australia, it looks like. I can understand it would be more difficult to adhere to when the virus is so under control where you're at, but those lockdowns might be a big reason why.
It depends on your priorities. The rules in Sydney, which they have had for a year and will likely have for all of 2021 (no more than 5 visitors, no gatherings >30 people in public) are much more restrictive than any other state in Australia. I much prefer a short and hard lockdown with closed borders to states who refuse to attempt elimination and being able to live a normal life as a result.
The Victorian 2nd wave was undeniably a management screw up, and when restrictions were announced I was dubious that it’d even work (thought the cat was out of the bag) but the fact that their modelling forecasts were accurate (to the day!) months out shows they knew what they were doing and for me it seemed worthwhile.
The Victorian 2nd wave was undeniably a management screw up, and when restrictions were announced I was dubious that it’d even work (thought the cat was out of the bag) but the fact that their modelling forecasts were accurate (to the day!) months out shows they knew what they were doing and for me it seemed worthwhile.
I think you probably came into this with a profound disagreement with the politics of Victoria, and more naturally aligned with NSW. If you actually didn't and would in more normal times vote labor, I'd be interested in that because what you say very strongly speaks to me, of a prior dissent from the Andrews government. You are using libertarian language in a way which implies you are not a statist, and do not believe what Victoria did was legal, let alone justified
(btw in case it isn't clear, I categorically disagree on both fronts)
I say this as a queenslander, where the overwhelming majority of the state backs what Labor has done, and thinks NSW can go jump, regarding who determines what happens at the borders.
I doubt any Westralian, or Tasmanian, or any of the aboriginal communities (who self isolated day #1) would agree with you over lockdown btw.
(btw in case it isn't clear, I categorically disagree on both fronts)
I say this as a queenslander, where the overwhelming majority of the state backs what Labor has done, and thinks NSW can go jump, regarding who determines what happens at the borders.
I doubt any Westralian, or Tasmanian, or any of the aboriginal communities (who self isolated day #1) would agree with you over lockdown btw.
I'm curious what your thoughts are about the USA's response. In California, the majority of people obeyed the stay-at-home orders for the first few months, but then, much like yourself, started ignoring them completely. They announced a 'second lockdown' recently, which everyone kind of laughs about, because no one is actually paying attention to it. We're up to 700 deaths per day now.
"my sacrifice, along with everyone else's, are what is going to pull us through"
Well, I've been looking at the case curves and they only seem to go up, even with lockdowns, masks, curfews and whatever comes next. So if you're implying it's a worthy sacrifice, I can't say I share that view.
Well, I've been looking at the case curves and they only seem to go up, even with lockdowns, masks, curfews and whatever comes next. So if you're implying it's a worthy sacrifice, I can't say I share that view.
I suggest you like at our case curves (https://chrisbillington.net/COVID_VIC.html) where these strict rules were in place and enforced. Then look at our relative freedom, lives saved and economic prosperity in the months since.
USA here. Thank you for the well wishes. That means a lot to me.
USA here, it means nothing to me.
You're getting down voted but I feel it's unfair. You made me spit my coffee in a meeting. That is the true American spirit! The pandemic is affecting us all for sure.
USA here. Second this, thank you for the well wishes and pulling for us. We're trying to turn it around!
It seems like media around the world is really preoccupied with the USA and the mess we have over here with COVID. At the same time, your situation sounds like an actual nightmare to me (also being an introverted person), and the accounts of others in Europe and Russia sound even worse.
Whereas we in the USA were, relatively speaking, having a great time in 2020, travelling all around the country (flying is so much better - cheap tickets on short notice and no middle seats), enjoying the mountains and parks; most of the year, dining in restaurants, going to gyms, etc. The only thing I do miss are board-game meetups, well and travelling to Russia to see family (and I guess now that we have a re-entry test requirement, I'll also miss other international travel, there are enough sensible countries to have made it possible before that). In proportion to the risk, I am taking 10-20x of the precautions I take with flu before I get a shot... instead of almost none, barely any :)
I am happy you are doing well with the situation but do wish you guys luck in sorting the lockdown mess ;)
I am happy you are doing well with the situation but do wish you guys luck in sorting the lockdown mess ;)
Europe had a few months of relaxed restrictions in the summer. The lockdown period was in the spring and resumed around November.
The lockdowns in the USA were generally lighter/shorter in most states; I am pretty sure in some states indoor dining never stopped. In all the states that I'm aware of, the enforcement was non-existent for individuals. For example, you could drive to a state park 50 miles away from home that you were supposed to stay-at, that was officially completely closed, and there'd be 100 cars parked along the road next to a closed trailhead.
I was assuming the enforcement/lockdowns are like that because they wouldn't stand in court, but then did a little bit of research and found out general-purpose freedom of movement in public spaces does not actually appear to be a well-codified (or often argued in court?) right in the USA, so I guess it's just the culture of liberty, and the politicians being afraid of the reaction if there was enforcement. It made me very proud and happy to be an American by choice ;)
I was assuming the enforcement/lockdowns are like that because they wouldn't stand in court, but then did a little bit of research and found out general-purpose freedom of movement in public spaces does not actually appear to be a well-codified (or often argued in court?) right in the USA, so I guess it's just the culture of liberty, and the politicians being afraid of the reaction if there was enforcement. It made me very proud and happy to be an American by choice ;)
This paragraph is a very good example for outsiders of how half of America got us where we are today.
Where, exactly, are we today? With per-capita deaths in the ballpark (or lower) than developed countries with more strict, and far better enforced, lockdowns, and at times severe travel restrictions (UK, Italy, Spain, France) [1][2]? Where states with no or fewer restrictions, like Texas or Florida, are doing barely worse (or better) than states with draconian restrictions, like California? [3] With one of the highest vaccination rates reported among large developed countries? [4]
I forgot to mention another good thing about 2020, I really feel good when I do something that annoys holier-than-thou busybodies; living in a liberal city it is typically hard to do, but 2020 was a great year for that activity :D
[1] https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#global-counts-rate... [2] https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality [3] https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#compare-trends_new... [4] https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
I forgot to mention another good thing about 2020, I really feel good when I do something that annoys holier-than-thou busybodies; living in a liberal city it is typically hard to do, but 2020 was a great year for that activity :D
[1] https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#global-counts-rate... [2] https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality [3] https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#compare-trends_new... [4] https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
Here in Western Australia it got pretty hectic for a few weeks at the start of 2020 as a general wave of panic set it, and the public started panic buying before the lockdowns. We only endured a short 'official' lockdown time, however ended up working on home for the most of the rest of the year.
Our hard border policy certainly helped ease the stress fairly early in the piece however, and we all had a (comparatively) easy time after that.
Personally I had some additional stress while working at home - we had a kid at the start of March so it was an interesting time - but luckily for the most part our state was quite insulated from the social impacts of the covid period.
Our hard border policy certainly helped ease the stress fairly early in the piece however, and we all had a (comparatively) easy time after that.
Personally I had some additional stress while working at home - we had a kid at the start of March so it was an interesting time - but luckily for the most part our state was quite insulated from the social impacts of the covid period.
Hello fellow sand groper! I watched from afar (UK) as the panic buying set in around the same time. Amazing to see the difference in handling of the cases between where the two island nations...
I read the first paragraph and thought you were making a tongue-in-cheek joke about being in prison. Sadly, you were not.
Personally, I'm not burnt out.
To void burn out, I did a few things which I feel are extremely helpful.
1. Have a room that is a dedicated office. When I leave this room, I leave the "office".
2. Establish communication throughout the day. This means having slack conversations (typed and video) that are casual. It's okay to vent on these calls.
3. Have a defined schedule - Awake at 6am, washed/dressed by 6:30am, Red Bull (or if you like food) and at my desk by 7am. I do work long hours, but I enjoy it because I'm accomplishing something.
4. Work on something that excites you or find joy in your work somehow.
5. Lastly, realize most of the mental stress can be managed with a little mindfulness, learning to accept that you still can grow and find joy even when at home and cut back on social media; or if you're like me, I cut out 99% of social media.
I hope everyone remains positive. Do something today, that makes you better tomorrow.
To void burn out, I did a few things which I feel are extremely helpful.
1. Have a room that is a dedicated office. When I leave this room, I leave the "office".
2. Establish communication throughout the day. This means having slack conversations (typed and video) that are casual. It's okay to vent on these calls.
3. Have a defined schedule - Awake at 6am, washed/dressed by 6:30am, Red Bull (or if you like food) and at my desk by 7am. I do work long hours, but I enjoy it because I'm accomplishing something.
4. Work on something that excites you or find joy in your work somehow.
5. Lastly, realize most of the mental stress can be managed with a little mindfulness, learning to accept that you still can grow and find joy even when at home and cut back on social media; or if you're like me, I cut out 99% of social media.
I hope everyone remains positive. Do something today, that makes you better tomorrow.
6. Don‘t have young kids at home.
Sorry for the unqualified snark here, just couldn‘t resist. The realities couldn‘t be more different for different people at this time.
Someone recently asked me whether I enjoyed my Corona free time as well.
I didn’t know what to answer as could not even comprehend the concept.
I‘m missing everything. Time for myself. Silence. Holidays. Physical movement. Sanity.
Work and Noise, non-stop, around the clock. Still falling behind on all projects with limited understanding of single colleagues with more time to kill than Netflix has content.
I love those rascals, but I‘m crashing on the couch every night and barely make it out of bed the next day. Just functioning and surviving.
Never been more exhausted in my life before.
Sorry for the unqualified snark here, just couldn‘t resist. The realities couldn‘t be more different for different people at this time.
Someone recently asked me whether I enjoyed my Corona free time as well.
I didn’t know what to answer as could not even comprehend the concept.
I‘m missing everything. Time for myself. Silence. Holidays. Physical movement. Sanity.
Work and Noise, non-stop, around the clock. Still falling behind on all projects with limited understanding of single colleagues with more time to kill than Netflix has content.
I love those rascals, but I‘m crashing on the couch every night and barely make it out of bed the next day. Just functioning and surviving.
Never been more exhausted in my life before.
Yeah, I think the people that had the best of this shitty situation are introverted, no child couples with stable remote supporting jobs.
My wife and I are toast by kids'(2&4) bedtime, and can only sit on the couch watching something and reel from the day.
Like Ron Swanson said, I miss silence, and the absence of noise.
My wife and I are toast by kids'(2&4) bedtime, and can only sit on the couch watching something and reel from the day.
Like Ron Swanson said, I miss silence, and the absence of noise.
> Yeah, I think the people that had the best of this shitty situation are introverted, no child couples with stable remote supporting jobs.
These people are also the most overrepresented on various internet fora.
These people are also the most overrepresented on various internet fora.
I had a "Covid fling" with someone who I would have never dated otherwise. Obviously, that made things a lot more fun than they otherwise would have been.
I think singles are more represented than couples.
> These people are also the most overrepresented on various internet fora.
They have the most time.
They have the most time.
I am a childless couple, and although I love my partner and there have been no major fights or anything during this whole pandemic, we are living in a small 1 1/2 room flat and sometimes it's just stressful to go from working from home to constantly sitting on top of each other. There is no retreat, either you go to the bedroom/office and the other person stays in the living room or you are stuck on top of each other.
All in all I'm very grateful for our privileged situation, but I would not say I enjoy lockdowns or the pandemic.
this. same situation as you. Do you have any tips? Mine is having a predefined schedule throughout the day (semi formal schedule will work) works great. Also, are both of you working? how do you work? 6 hrs each?
Your comment resonated with me. 3 kids, (6,4,1) so my days start around 5am with the baby and basically alternating between working and helping with kids alternating every 30 minutes until 8. Every day.
I totally feel you. It's certainly been really hard for us. 4 year old going crazy, me at my desk all day most days. We try to cover for the other one while they get personal time, but it's me with the full time job.
This past few weeks I've started work at 6am (it's 6:07 right now) so that I can create some more space during the day and give her time.
I give my son some focused attention / special time in the middle of the day and in the evening. It's important that he gets a good intense dose of me and I'm not distracted when with him. Without that he's feeling unwanted (why does papa work all the time?) and he acts out. He refuses to join us for dinner: "I'm working" he says.
I was burnt out. Right now I'm doing well.
This past few weeks I've started work at 6am (it's 6:07 right now) so that I can create some more space during the day and give her time.
I give my son some focused attention / special time in the middle of the day and in the evening. It's important that he gets a good intense dose of me and I'm not distracted when with him. Without that he's feeling unwanted (why does papa work all the time?) and he acts out. He refuses to join us for dinner: "I'm working" he says.
I was burnt out. Right now I'm doing well.
> 6. Don‘t have young kids at home.
I disagree. I've got more kids than you do (edit: I misread your post, I'm not clear how many children you have. My apology for the mistake), all at difficult ages including a 1 year old. They are one of the few things making COVID seclusion tolerable for me.
The near constant interaction can be exhausting, but it has also been very rewarding. I know my kids better than ever and have gotten to participate in a lot of moments I would've missed.
I find that the narrative I give myself around things like this is very important. If I told myself I was barely surviving my kids I would probably feel that way. Instead I focus on how lucky I am to be surrounded by my family, and that it's a wonderful thing to have unprecedented amounts of time with them. I've perhaps never been happier with my family than I have been during the pandemic.
None of that is a criticism of people who are struggling. Just looking to offer another point of view.
I disagree. I've got more kids than you do (edit: I misread your post, I'm not clear how many children you have. My apology for the mistake), all at difficult ages including a 1 year old. They are one of the few things making COVID seclusion tolerable for me.
The near constant interaction can be exhausting, but it has also been very rewarding. I know my kids better than ever and have gotten to participate in a lot of moments I would've missed.
I find that the narrative I give myself around things like this is very important. If I told myself I was barely surviving my kids I would probably feel that way. Instead I focus on how lucky I am to be surrounded by my family, and that it's a wonderful thing to have unprecedented amounts of time with them. I've perhaps never been happier with my family than I have been during the pandemic.
None of that is a criticism of people who are struggling. Just looking to offer another point of view.
You're saying that lockdown added value to your life with kids. That's not an argument that having kids is easier than not having kids.
Life is complex. A change can be beneficial in some ways and harmful to others. And you have many children and keeps wanting more, you are probably an extravert not an introvert.
Life is complex. A change can be beneficial in some ways and harmful to others. And you have many children and keeps wanting more, you are probably an extravert not an introvert.
> I've got more kids than you do
They never said how many kids they had, which makes it hard to take your comment seriously.
You don't know what their kids are like, how much spousal support they have, the floorplan or acoustics of their home, how hard their work is, or what their threshold for noise is.
> None of that is a criticism of people who are struggling. Just looking to offer another point of view.
No. It's easy to convince yourself that that sort of thing is helpful, but all you're really saying is that you can't understand because your particular circumstances are better.
They never said how many kids they had, which makes it hard to take your comment seriously.
You don't know what their kids are like, how much spousal support they have, the floorplan or acoustics of their home, how hard their work is, or what their threshold for noise is.
> None of that is a criticism of people who are struggling. Just looking to offer another point of view.
No. It's easy to convince yourself that that sort of thing is helpful, but all you're really saying is that you can't understand because your particular circumstances are better.
Same boat here. 2 kids - 2.5 years and 2 months. All day just cycling between work and kids every 30-40 mins. Exhausted and falling behind projects at the same time with limited understanding from superiors and colleagues who either are single or can afford child care.
> Don‘t have young kids at home
I've really enjoyed the extra time with my six-year-old daughter rather than sending her off to school. Having her around the house and able to come into my office for random cuddles during the working day is a joy.
I've really enjoyed the extra time with my six-year-old daughter rather than sending her off to school. Having her around the house and able to come into my office for random cuddles during the working day is a joy.
I'm not dismissing the challenges you're facing but single no child people are suffering too, just very different challenges. I've spent almost a year alone in a flat with no separate working space and unable to do any of my usual hobbies and social activities. The challenges are very different but both groups have challenges.
I personally don't have children and I didn't _really_ understand how difficult it is to have kids at home while working. When I moved back East, I did spend 3 days at my brothers.
He has two adorable little girls; 1.5 years old and 2 months.
His kids are pretty calm, by most standards.. but you can't let the older one out of sight for a few seconds.
I certainly feel your pain even though I don't have kids.
Question: Tell me how much you love going to the bathroom or getting washed now. It's the only time you have to yourself lol
He has two adorable little girls; 1.5 years old and 2 months.
His kids are pretty calm, by most standards.. but you can't let the older one out of sight for a few seconds.
I certainly feel your pain even though I don't have kids.
Question: Tell me how much you love going to the bathroom or getting washed now. It's the only time you have to yourself lol
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At the beginning of this, our day care closed down for a couple of months and it was tough (thankfully grandma got stuck with us at the time). Things got much better when daycare reopened, though we had to switch due to moving and had a misfire with a daycare that was too big and too restrictive for our tastes (we found one that could be less restrictive because they had fewer kids).
Restrictive with covid precautions?
My daughters daycare told us point blank no staff wear masks unless answering the door and they “don’t want to close for a virus” (you can read between the lines). One of the teachers also shops for instacart half days. No thank you.
My daughters daycare told us point blank no staff wear masks unless answering the door and they “don’t want to close for a virus” (you can read between the lines). One of the teachers also shops for instacart half days. No thank you.
Staff in our state (WA) are required to wear masks. Kids under 5 aren’t required to wear masks. They take precautions, but at least we are allowed to escort our kid to class and talk to the teacher everyday.
If you can, get some noise cancelling headphones. That really helps with getting silence and some time for yourself.
I think I’d rather be tired than lonely. I’ve feel like I’ve got no reason to live.
Hey, I know it’s hard to think otherwise right now, but there are many great reasons to live and you being alive and in hopefully good health is a great gift. There are many people that are in bad situations and one way to not be lonely is to try and connect with others you might be able to help just by being there.
Hang on and things will get better!
Hang on and things will get better!
This is going to be over soon, so look forward to it and start getting ready (eat, exercise, and relearn grooming/dressing you forgot during lockdown).
More so than before covid, other people are going to want to meet you.
Hey, reach out anytime if you just want someone to chat with. Email is in my bio.
>Have a room that is a dedicated office. When I leave this room, I leave the "office".
If this is important (and I agree it is) then we're setting up the vast majority of people for burnout. Most people don't have the luxury of a room they can convert into an office.
If this is important (and I agree it is) then we're setting up the vast majority of people for burnout. Most people don't have the luxury of a room they can convert into an office.
> Most people don't have the luxury of a room they can convert into an office.
For those who don't understand, here's my annecdote:
After the divorce the only thing I could afford in my son's school district is a 2 bedroom^ apartment. I have to pack up "my office" just to serve dinner. We now have lunch from the couch. I'm not complaining, but the idea of a dedicated room is up there with personal island for me.
^ the master is his to give him playspace lacking a playroom
For those who don't understand, here's my annecdote:
After the divorce the only thing I could afford in my son's school district is a 2 bedroom^ apartment. I have to pack up "my office" just to serve dinner. We now have lunch from the couch. I'm not complaining, but the idea of a dedicated room is up there with personal island for me.
^ the master is his to give him playspace lacking a playroom
I understand too having been divorced and had to downsize to be close to my son for shared custody. What helped is doing away with a bed and opting for a Japanese futon setup where I fold up my bed and have loads more space to work.
A workspace can be temporal not geographic. Use your "non-commute time" to change over the curtains/linens/folding-furniture (and clothes!) to change the context from home to work.
Like Mr Rogers changing his shoes and sweater.
The fourth bullet point is also a non-starter. I'm sorry, but it's not, nor was it ever, good advice for programmers to write code both at work and at home. We don't expect this of other careers, we shouldn't expect it of developers, either.
Feel free to write code after work if you like, but to consider it anywhere close to a requirement, even to just help with burnout, is perpetuating a rather toxic view of this particular industry's workers.
Feel free to write code after work if you like, but to consider it anywhere close to a requirement, even to just help with burnout, is perpetuating a rather toxic view of this particular industry's workers.
A lot of us get into programming because we enjoy it, but the realities of work often mean doing boring repetitive tasks. OP isn't suggesting that it's mandatory, just a way to keep from feeling burnt out, and I agree.
Additionally, if you're smart that time can wind up being compensated later. I wrote JavaScript on my own for 3.5 years before I started doing it professionally, and while I didn't get paid, it allowed me to eventually double my income, so I consider it a great investment.
> We don't expect this of other careers,
Sure we do. Doctors may be expected to read medical journals or keep up on the latest research, for example.
Additionally, if you're smart that time can wind up being compensated later. I wrote JavaScript on my own for 3.5 years before I started doing it professionally, and while I didn't get paid, it allowed me to eventually double my income, so I consider it a great investment.
> We don't expect this of other careers,
Sure we do. Doctors may be expected to read medical journals or keep up on the latest research, for example.
> Additionally, if you're smart that time can wind up being compensated later. I wrote JavaScript on my own for 3.5 years before I started doing it professionally, and while I didn't get paid, it allowed me to eventually double my income, so I consider it a great investment.
Great if you are young and have no commitments. Not so great if you are old and have many commitments.
Or are we expecting programmers to program after work even during their later years?
Great if you are young and have no commitments. Not so great if you are old and have many commitments.
Or are we expecting programmers to program after work even during their later years?
> Or are we expecting programmers to program after work even during their later years?
Look, OP suggested a strategy for not getting burnt out that works for them, and I'm just saying what works for me. You are the one who is turning this into some sort of "expectation".
If you don't want to code outside of work, and don't see value in it, don't do it. Nobody gives a rats ass.
Look, OP suggested a strategy for not getting burnt out that works for them, and I'm just saying what works for me. You are the one who is turning this into some sort of "expectation".
If you don't want to code outside of work, and don't see value in it, don't do it. Nobody gives a rats ass.
Indeed doctors do, at least in the US although I don’t know how it works internationally. They’re called CMEs (continuing medical education) and they need to earn a certain number of hours per year
CMEs are one thing, but many good doctors keep up to date on medical advances in their field regardless.
Who said it had to be writing code? If finding joy in work is unrealistic, then take up a musical instrument, build a model railroad, write short stories, or something totally unrelated. (I've been a full-time code monkey by day and musician by night for going on six years, and I'm still finding other hobbies to dabble in.)
"Work on" might be bad verbiage then, particularly if we are talking about people who the term "work" might just make anxious.
"Find a hobby" would be a better phrasing.
"Find a hobby" would be a better phrasing.
Two counter points. First, it depends on the personality. If you don't find programming on its own gratifying and enjoyable, there's no need to force it on the side. But second, if you do enjoy programming, are burnt out, and have never tried a side project, give it an honest shot. It is so utterly counter-intuitive that programming on the side can cure your burn out from programming as a job, but time and again that has been my experience. I don't quite understand how it has this effect on me (and others), but it does. A few hours or a weekend of coding on a side project, and I come back to work like I've just been on vacation, sometimes even struggling to remember just what it was that was bothering me so much last week.
I took item 4 to mean "at work" -- find something enjoyable to work on at work / while actually working... Which definitely isn't always an option depending on your job.
I agree to what you're saying, but the 4th bullet should not mean this. Find joy in what you're doing is independent advice. I would add to this that outside of work, you should also look for something that gives you joy. Something that is not coding would be preferred.
It's not really your place to tell people what hobbies are OK to enjoy.
That one seems like pretty common advice even for non-software fields. The work you love doesn't have to be software, too, but you should be working on something you enjoy (or if you get fulfillment from your job, that's just a bonus!)
Your risk is being left behind. It's unfortunate but true.
Programing at work and programing as a hobby are very different activities.
One should never consider it a requirement, but it's not a recipe for certain burn-out either. (But yeah, if you are doing it because it's a requirement, then it's work and it will lead to burn-out.)
One should never consider it a requirement, but it's not a recipe for certain burn-out either. (But yeah, if you are doing it because it's a requirement, then it's work and it will lead to burn-out.)
> We don't expect this of other careers
That is so not true. When are doctors supposed to perform research or their required continuing education? When seeing clients? No. It’s on their own time.
That is so not true. When are doctors supposed to perform research or their required continuing education? When seeing clients? No. It’s on their own time.
Continual Medical Education (CMEs) are definitely during normal work days. They're also often at fancy destinations with hotels and mai tais. My father and other family have done them for years. They never had to take vacation days.
Doctors have a terrible working schedule and I'm not jealous of it one bit, but this is really not true.
They may be on-call sometimes but generally if they're off they are not working or training.
They read UpToDate on work time.
They may be on-call sometimes but generally if they're off they are not working or training.
They read UpToDate on work time.
Just want to chime in and say your dedicated space doesn’t need to be a room!
I’ve gone the entire pandemic in a 450sq ft studio with my wife and our pets. My trick was to put my desk between a window and a wall and get an $80 room divider. Anytime the room divider was closed it meant one of two things: “Please don’t distract me, I’m busy”. Or “I’m not sitting back at my desk to work until tomorrow”
I love working — prior to my wife moving in, all I wanted to do was code and tinker with different ideas. But I know that isn’t sustainable for many reasons. Having a blocked off space, as tiny as it may be, to “get in the zone” or literally separate me from work has worked wonders for my mental health during the pandemic.
* I used some past tense here because we finally just upgraded to a 1 bedroom after 2 years :)
I’ve gone the entire pandemic in a 450sq ft studio with my wife and our pets. My trick was to put my desk between a window and a wall and get an $80 room divider. Anytime the room divider was closed it meant one of two things: “Please don’t distract me, I’m busy”. Or “I’m not sitting back at my desk to work until tomorrow”
I love working — prior to my wife moving in, all I wanted to do was code and tinker with different ideas. But I know that isn’t sustainable for many reasons. Having a blocked off space, as tiny as it may be, to “get in the zone” or literally separate me from work has worked wonders for my mental health during the pandemic.
* I used some past tense here because we finally just upgraded to a 1 bedroom after 2 years :)
Can confirm. I live in a 450 square foot studio apartment and I work from home every day. I would love a separate room to just be my "office," but my only room is already my kitchen, bedroom and living room too...
I don't have a feeling for how big that is, but I work from home in a small flat. I have found that I can get this separation from only using my desk for work. I don't sit in my office chair or at my desk in my own time, if I'm writing code in my free time I do it on my sofa or at my coffee table.
Alternatives I've heard from others are things like dressing up for work. I had a colleague that wore a suit to work every day (at a tech startup) so that when he got home he could change into something else. That helped him define a boundary.
Find what works for you, it doesn't have to be physical space.
Alternatives I've heard from others are things like dressing up for work. I had a colleague that wore a suit to work every day (at a tech startup) so that when he got home he could change into something else. That helped him define a boundary.
Find what works for you, it doesn't have to be physical space.
> dressing up for work
That's actually a great point - the days that I put on a button-up and nice jeans as if I was going into an office are days that I'm way more productive, as opposed to wearing pajamas all day.
That's actually a great point - the days that I put on a button-up and nice jeans as if I was going into an office are days that I'm way more productive, as opposed to wearing pajamas all day.
Well my dress up is limited to putting on a different t-shirt. (What's further down is irrelevant for zoom meetings) But it does help. I have a set of slightly more respectable work t-shirts and a very different set of home shirts. And it does change my mind set. And it is very nice to take it off at the end of the day.
Also my kids whom are stuck at home at the moment recognise the difference and "somewhat" tries to disturb me less if I got a work shirt on.
Also my kids whom are stuck at home at the moment recognise the difference and "somewhat" tries to disturb me less if I got a work shirt on.
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I agree - dressing up was implied with "get washed/dressed". It's very important to get dressed for work.
I find that going for a walk before / after work is helpful to get in the right mindset. Hopefully that's an option available to you.
Make sure you've got everything ready to go when you 'arrive'. Don't do chores during the day -- but if you have a partner, discuss your reasoning for this with them beforehand.
Make sure you've got everything ready to go when you 'arrive'. Don't do chores during the day -- but if you have a partner, discuss your reasoning for this with them beforehand.
You can set up movable paper walls Japanese style and separate spaces that way.
The word is http://enwp.org/paravent
I 100% agree. I moved from Mountain View CA to Jersey City, NJ. When I moved, I intentionally made sure I found a place with an extra bedroom. That being said, trust me, I know not everyone can afford it.
I grew up sleeping on the floor for 15 years because I couldn't afford a bed. I get it.
I grew up sleeping on the floor for 15 years because I couldn't afford a bed. I get it.
If you are in a studio it’s going to be harder, but if you literally have a room, there are ways to make it work - I’ve been working literally inches from my bed by putting a standing desk converter on a low 3-drawer dresser. The key is that when I’m working - the standing desk and chair are there and the bed is made/not used. When it’s time to stop work, I fold everything away so it’s not in the way, move the chair out and spend some time outside of that room. I return there when it’s time to sleep and don’t touch any work related items. It’s an odd mental switch, but been working well for me. The context of the room is reset. Having grown up in small Soviet-era apartments helps I guess.
I think, especially in context of burnout, is the mental switch. If necessary, cleanup your whole equipment and shove it below the bed or to the pots. Do some sports in between and do not code for fun but watch some Netflix. On a TV and not your VSCode plugin :)
In lieu of a separate actual space, a separate conceptual space can help too. Recently I started making an active effort to shut work down. Write down closing thoughts for the day, close all tabs and open processes, shut it all down. Block off time in my calendar, and even if I have to stay online for something important, I still go through the "shtudown" routine with everything that isn't the urgent situation. That whay when the urgency resolves, I am ready to just drop it and walk away. Its not since I approached this more mindfully that I realized just how much I was letting it weigh on me.
On Windows 10 you can have separate virtual desktops. You can use win+tab to add and switch to one and then bring all of your work windows over to it. I used to use that when I began WFH but got out of the practice. You can switch between them by doing ctrl+win+left arrow or ctrl+win+right but be careful because some graphics drivers use ctrl+alt+left/right/up/down to rotate the screen and I've messed up my multi-desktop setup more than once by mistaking the key combo.
It's not as good as having a separate system for office work but you can conceptually separate what you are doing at least.
It's not as good as having a separate system for office work but you can conceptually separate what you are doing at least.
I have a separate work laptop from my employer, but if I didn't, I would just create another user account on my computer.
I try to keep work/personal data completely separated. No logging in to private email from work account, no hobby code and work code accessible for same user account. No Hacker News or other unrelated sites on work browser. Private matters during work hours done on my private phone.
I find this good for work/free time separation, and helps a lot with concentration too.
I try to keep work/personal data completely separated. No logging in to private email from work account, no hobby code and work code accessible for same user account. No Hacker News or other unrelated sites on work browser. Private matters during work hours done on my private phone.
I find this good for work/free time separation, and helps a lot with concentration too.
One purpose is to enable you to concentrate on work, but I am don't think that's the biggest win. The core idea here is to use physical space mapped to mental space so you can move between activities easily. It can be a specific corner of a room too. Like - "when I sit here I'm ideating, when I go there I'm designing, when I sit at that desk I'm coding" sort of split. You don't need to be fine grained, but it is similar to "when I sit at the dining table, I eat". Quite possible to design this even in small spaces.
I agree. A 1 bedroom WFH in the city of Chicago fkin' sucks
The goal is to have a physical mapping that allows context switching. A whole separate room is the obvious ideal, but as I don't have that either, I came up with something different that works well enough: I have two couches (sort of, two parts of an Ikea couch), so I rearranged them a bit and one of them is now strictly for work, the other for non-work.
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Anything can help provide that same context switching to a lesser extent. Examples can be wearing your hair a certain way during working hours, or wearing one set of headphones for work and another for play, etc.
Buy a bootable external drive for your computer. Have all your "work" stuff on that drive. When you reach then end of your work day, shut down the computer, disconnect the external drive and store it in a closet until the start of your next work day.
When booted off the work drive, do not mount your internal drive.
When booted off the work drive, do not mount your internal drive.
1. Kicked out my roommate and made an office. Didn't help.
2. It's very hard to do casual check-in with another person.I feel like I'm bothering them too much. I can't get over it. Too stressful. Was way easier in person. Just feel the room and interrupt as needed.
3. I wake up early, take my pre-workout or red bull or 5h energy but just stare at the screen for 4 hours between 8 and noon and can't start.
4. I love the product but I can't start working wihtout others around me.
5. I hired multiple therapists. They put me on meds. I took medical leave. Nothing helped.
For me, work is for work and home is for home or for "work on autopilot"
2. It's very hard to do casual check-in with another person.I feel like I'm bothering them too much. I can't get over it. Too stressful. Was way easier in person. Just feel the room and interrupt as needed.
3. I wake up early, take my pre-workout or red bull or 5h energy but just stare at the screen for 4 hours between 8 and noon and can't start.
4. I love the product but I can't start working wihtout others around me.
5. I hired multiple therapists. They put me on meds. I took medical leave. Nothing helped.
For me, work is for work and home is for home or for "work on autopilot"
Our company has a daily meeting for the team. On paper, it's to talk about what we did yesterday and what we're doing today. And we do that. But we're allowed to take as much time beyond that as we like to socialize. We talk about tv, movies, games, sports, whatever.
Without this, I think I would be a lot worse off in this crisis, and I'm a pretty extreme introvert.
If I was in your situation and had to actually bug people to talk to them... Ugh. No way.
Have you asked others if they want to be on an 8 hr/day video call with you? Perhaps there are others that would prefer that, or would do it to help you.
I personally would not enjoy that, but if someone on my team needed it... I'd at least try to deal with it.
Alternatively, maybe you can find a few of them to do it for 2 hrs/day and take the edge off.
Without this, I think I would be a lot worse off in this crisis, and I'm a pretty extreme introvert.
If I was in your situation and had to actually bug people to talk to them... Ugh. No way.
Have you asked others if they want to be on an 8 hr/day video call with you? Perhaps there are others that would prefer that, or would do it to help you.
I personally would not enjoy that, but if someone on my team needed it... I'd at least try to deal with it.
Alternatively, maybe you can find a few of them to do it for 2 hrs/day and take the edge off.
Yeah I tried the constant live streaming thing. It helped for a bit.
Not sure what your budget situation is, but what if you got a new roommate and then rented another small apartment nearby to be your "office"? It wouldn't solve the people around part, but at least you'd have an office to go to.
So I tried to see if they let me work from wework or some other shared space but I work with some equipment that can’t be seen in public
> 1. Have a room that is a dedicated office. When I leave this room, I leave the "office".
I live in a city where an apartment costs 1500 a square foot, so a two bedroom apartment for a single person is barely affordable.
This pandemic has taught me that crowded cities suck.
I live in a city where an apartment costs 1500 a square foot, so a two bedroom apartment for a single person is barely affordable.
This pandemic has taught me that crowded cities suck.
Life choices always have an impact. I'm not judging you, because trust me, expensive areas like New York City (I love living there) are great, but blow during a pandemic since you're unable to enjoy what the actual city has to offer.
When I relocated back east, I made it a point to a) not live in the city since it'll be overpriced and I won't be able to enjoy the surrounding area and b) Price per square footage wouldn't make sense if I'm at home 24/7. So I went across the river and pay less for _a lot more_.
I know a lot of people are moving to Austin TX. They get a LOT more for their money. I was lucky to be on a month by month lease when the pandemic hit.
When I relocated back east, I made it a point to a) not live in the city since it'll be overpriced and I won't be able to enjoy the surrounding area and b) Price per square footage wouldn't make sense if I'm at home 24/7. So I went across the river and pay less for _a lot more_.
I know a lot of people are moving to Austin TX. They get a LOT more for their money. I was lucky to be on a month by month lease when the pandemic hit.
I've lived in Austin for just over 10 years and while there are major benefits over the coasts, the downside is the city is also importing the bad things.
Homelessness is off the charts with the street camping and violence that comes along with it. If you're familiar with SF, it's nothing like the Tenderloin but more like SOMA-lite.
In addition, shootings are way up. For context, there were 39 total in 2019. In the summer of 2020, we had 40 consecutive days of shootings. Further, the local DA has also adopted the mindset of not prosecuting "low level" crimes of any theft under $750.
Sacrificing what makes Austin compelling is not the way to go.
Homelessness is off the charts with the street camping and violence that comes along with it. If you're familiar with SF, it's nothing like the Tenderloin but more like SOMA-lite.
In addition, shootings are way up. For context, there were 39 total in 2019. In the summer of 2020, we had 40 consecutive days of shootings. Further, the local DA has also adopted the mindset of not prosecuting "low level" crimes of any theft under $750.
Sacrificing what makes Austin compelling is not the way to go.
The city also has no even remotely sane urban planning, resulting in the worst sprawl I've seen anywhere in the USA in the last 10 years.
Austin isn't entirely alone with this: most of the sunbelt cities that are growing are doing so in the context of a complete lack of long term city planning. But Austin, IMO, is the worst right now. Even Phoenix, with an even more insane lack of water than Austin, has managed this side of things better.
Austin isn't entirely alone with this: most of the sunbelt cities that are growing are doing so in the context of a complete lack of long term city planning. But Austin, IMO, is the worst right now. Even Phoenix, with an even more insane lack of water than Austin, has managed this side of things better.
I consider myself fairly liberal, but the current trend of progressive DAs failing to prosecute quality of life crimes (phrased as so-called "quality of life" in quotes) adds to my pessimism. It's happening in the cities with jobs and things to do, limiting the options if you don't subscribe to that social policy.
I was in Austin last year and was shocked by the homeless there. I spoke to a few people and they had informed me that some laws changed recently which allows them to live under bridges and the lots of churches etc.
I was taken back because I never thought Austin would have such a problem.
I was taken back because I never thought Austin would have such a problem.
Austin lifted the ban on camping on city land in 2019.
* Except in front of City Hall. Camping is still banned there.
I've thought about Austin and other places, if I'm honest. It's a huge change as it would require new friends and, harder, a new job. It's on my mind.
I'm single so I'm wary of not living in a large, walkable city.
I'm single so I'm wary of not living in a large, walkable city.
Murders spiked 50% in Austin last year.
In my opinion crowded cities really suck, during pandemics. I love to huge city I'm living in. But during the last 9-10 months I only had all the downsides of city living and none of the upsides. If I were not that attached to the apartment I'm renting currently for how hard it is to find one with its characteristics for the price, I would have long ago terminated the contract and moved to the country side for the time being as a large part of my colleagues.
I know it’s easier said than done, but move!
I was fortunate enough that my lease expired back in July so I looked for somewhere a bit further out of the city with more room. I pay a smidge more each month, but I probably at least doubled the size of my place and I have a dedicated office now
I was fortunate enough that my lease expired back in July so I looked for somewhere a bit further out of the city with more room. I pay a smidge more each month, but I probably at least doubled the size of my place and I have a dedicated office now
Still single, and I'd hate to find myself single and in the suburbs alone with a house when the party starts when this apocalypse is over.
But I've heavily considered it!
But I've heavily considered it!
$1500 per square foot?
I was confused too. But I'm pretty sure they mean condos cost $1500/sf to buy, and not apartments cost $1500/sq/month
The average was $1770 a sf for a condo in 2018.
I've never been more relaxed too, here are some more pointers:
1. Realise you're lucky to be in this position to work from home, as opposed to medical staff and being depressed is a luxury.
2. You are not a code machine, amount of code written is not a good measure of how productive you are. Better think of how much you contributed overall or learnt something new that year.
3. Your work is not your life, so focus and even obsess over other things such as hobbies and spend more mental energy on that rather than worry about your job. Your job just pays the bills nothing more.
4. Find online ways to socialise such as playing online games. If you're introverted that should be enough to satisfy your social needs.
1. Realise you're lucky to be in this position to work from home, as opposed to medical staff and being depressed is a luxury.
2. You are not a code machine, amount of code written is not a good measure of how productive you are. Better think of how much you contributed overall or learnt something new that year.
3. Your work is not your life, so focus and even obsess over other things such as hobbies and spend more mental energy on that rather than worry about your job. Your job just pays the bills nothing more.
4. Find online ways to socialise such as playing online games. If you're introverted that should be enough to satisfy your social needs.
> being depressed is a luxury
I know rationally that you're correct but it's damn hard to keep that in mind when you're depressed.
I know rationally that you're correct but it's damn hard to keep that in mind when you're depressed.
I would recommend dropping the Red Bull. Switch to coffee, if you like that. Even an iced can coffee would be healthier.
I used to drink it daily and it destroyed my body. Also, Red Bull is quite expensive!
I used to drink it daily and it destroyed my body. Also, Red Bull is quite expensive!
Yes, maybe this is just me, but every time I have an extended work from home period, depression follows after a few months.
I was working around this once by drinking red bull, which I found lifted my emotions temporarily, but after it wore off in 4 hours I crashed way harder into despair. This effect built up over time and fortunately I noticed it and stopped using it routinely.
YMMV - just a friendly warning of how it affected me.
I was working around this once by drinking red bull, which I found lifted my emotions temporarily, but after it wore off in 4 hours I crashed way harder into despair. This effect built up over time and fortunately I noticed it and stopped using it routinely.
YMMV - just a friendly warning of how it affected me.
Yes!
And the worst case scenarios happened when my body was tired and wanted to stop, but my brain was high on Red Bull and didn't let me fall sleep.
And the worst case scenarios happened when my body was tired and wanted to stop, but my brain was high on Red Bull and didn't let me fall sleep.
If you generally use anything as a crutch it will start wearing off and you will build up a tolerance unless you start enjoying it for the sake of enjoying it and nothing more.
This can apply to pretty much any substance or routine. Right now for me it's video games :(
This can apply to pretty much any substance or routine. Right now for me it's video games :(
I would recommend dropping coffee for tea. Switch to tea... (sorry for mocking ;) ). Honestly, while real bean coffee includes caffeine, which energizes you for 30 minutes, it also includes theobromine, which would put you to sleep after 30 minutes; tea (black tea and earl gray) has caffeine only. Instant coffee with milk (like Nescafe decaf) is a good beverage to drink before the bed time, since it contains theobromine only
You might want to kill me after I say this, certainly people on HN want to kill me just for fun ;), but I also drink coffee. I only drink sugar free Red Bull. What's strange is I can stop for months without any withdraw from caffeine. I often go from drinking Red Bull + Coffee for a few months to just water for multiple months.
Once I finish this case, I think it's time to go back to water and coffee for 6 months. :)
Once I finish this case, I think it's time to go back to water and coffee for 6 months. :)
I switched back from coffee to tea.
Partly because we have "real coffee" here in Portugal (expresso, a cultural import from the Italians via the Cimbalino series of coffee shop hardware, IIRC), partly because a long mug is better suited to winter, and partly because I am back working 90% with British folk, to the extent where we can compare blends...
But, overall, it suits me better. Takes longer to drink, does not mess with my stomach in the mornings, and smells great.
(Mind you, we do not consider American-style coffee to be "coffee" in the strictest sense of the word, because it's too processed/diluted/mixed).
Partly because we have "real coffee" here in Portugal (expresso, a cultural import from the Italians via the Cimbalino series of coffee shop hardware, IIRC), partly because a long mug is better suited to winter, and partly because I am back working 90% with British folk, to the extent where we can compare blends...
But, overall, it suits me better. Takes longer to drink, does not mess with my stomach in the mornings, and smells great.
(Mind you, we do not consider American-style coffee to be "coffee" in the strictest sense of the word, because it's too processed/diluted/mixed).
> (Mind you, we do not consider American-style coffee to be "coffee" in the strictest sense of the word, because it's too processed/diluted/mixed).
Out of curiosity, what exactly do you mean by "American-style coffee"? Are you referring to something you would get at Starbucks, or are you referring to the quality of the coffee beans used to make it?
Out of curiosity, what exactly do you mean by "American-style coffee"? Are you referring to something you would get at Starbucks, or are you referring to the quality of the coffee beans used to make it?
American-style "coffee" is harshly roasted at high temperatures and then ground to a powder in a destructive processing machine. Finally, it is diluted with water and even mixed with sugar to make it more palatable.
Europeans prefer to chew on a few green coffee beans throughout the day as a long-lasting source of clean, non-jittery, all-natural energy.
Europeans prefer to chew on a few green coffee beans throughout the day as a long-lasting source of clean, non-jittery, all-natural energy.
The US coffee tradition is both not very strong and made without pressure (drip/filter.) Most places use espresso level pressure even on larger weaker coffees. The stovetop moka is still typical for occasional coffee drinkers and is lower pressure, but still made stronger than drip coffee.
If you add an equal quantity of hot water to an espresso that is the European cafe attempt at emulating an American coffee, but it still has different taste because of the pressure.
I don't think Europe is as obsessed with aribica beans, robusta is common and actually quite good. In drip coffee, arabica is really the only thing drinkable or the closest to drinkable depending on your perspective.
If you add an equal quantity of hot water to an espresso that is the European cafe attempt at emulating an American coffee, but it still has different taste because of the pressure.
I don't think Europe is as obsessed with aribica beans, robusta is common and actually quite good. In drip coffee, arabica is really the only thing drinkable or the closest to drinkable depending on your perspective.
American coffee is diluted whereas in most other places I know it's not.
It's worth noting that "American" styles like v60 pour-overs, chemex, and cold brew iced coffee often have more caffeine per typical serving than traditional espresso drinks.
I recently got a coffee-grinder for Christmas so it’s my morning treat. Even though, I love the caffeine buzz, I try to drink only tea in the afternoon and I concur with the longer drinking being more enjoyable.
I’m currently experimenting with different blends of black tea and decreasing the amount of milk (as is tradition in Ireland) so that I can taste the tea better. I find that I can develop a taste for any decent tea leaf (or coffee bean).
I’m currently experimenting with different blends of black tea and decreasing the amount of milk (as is tradition in Ireland) so that I can taste the tea better. I find that I can develop a taste for any decent tea leaf (or coffee bean).
I'm on the look for a nice coffee grinder. Can you recommend yours, and are you happy to share brand and model if so?
My other half got me a De'Longhi Burr Coffee Grinder [1] as a Christmas gift (after I had been dropping not-so-subtle hints that I was thinking of buying a burr grinder [2] for coffee). Previously, I had used a blade grinder but the problem with those is that they do not "grind" the coffee evenly (produce a mixture of fine and coarse particles).
I can't compare the De'Longhi with any other burr grinder but the results are similar to those of the shop that I get my coffee from. Its one downside is that the minimum grind quantity is too much coffee for one person so I try to time it for when my wife will share the coffee with me. The whole point of grinding your own is that you can then brew the coffee at its freshest.
So far, I've been enjoying the results of having freshly ground coffee. Best of luck with your own grinding.
[1] https://www.delonghi.com/en-us/products/coffee-and-espresso/...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burr_mill
I can't compare the De'Longhi with any other burr grinder but the results are similar to those of the shop that I get my coffee from. Its one downside is that the minimum grind quantity is too much coffee for one person so I try to time it for when my wife will share the coffee with me. The whole point of grinding your own is that you can then brew the coffee at its freshest.
So far, I've been enjoying the results of having freshly ground coffee. Best of luck with your own grinding.
[1] https://www.delonghi.com/en-us/products/coffee-and-espresso/...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burr_mill
Fantastic, thank you!
what do you mean by "american-style coffee"? as an american, coffee to me means drip coffee, which is more "diluted" i suppose but is certainly not more processed or "mixed" than espresso. most american coffee is not sweet starbucks drinks.
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Advise:
If you have a gaming PC don't work in the same division and in the said PC.
You end up really not using the PC for anything else than working because in your free time last thing you wan't will be in the front of that PC.
I sold my gaming PC and bought a Xbox to spend my free (I used my laptop to work at the company so I'm just using that laptop to also work).
You end up really not using the PC for anything else than working because in your free time last thing you wan't will be in the front of that PC.
I sold my gaming PC and bought a Xbox to spend my free (I used my laptop to work at the company so I'm just using that laptop to also work).
I use my PC for both work and PC gaming. I find I have to get up from my desk for at least 45-60 min and reset after my workday before I'm ready to sit back down and game.
Something that helps me is having 2 laptops (though I'd imagine it would work just as well with 2 accounts on the same computer). My work-provided laptop stays in my work area at all times, and I don't put anything work-related on my personal laptop. I also took at least an hour or two customizing each one (name, background, dock) so that it feels different than the other. That way when I hop off my work laptop at the end of the day, if I decide to pick up my personal laptop, it immediately feels like I'm doing something different.
These days I have different computers for work and play but I used to just have one for both.
If that's you, absolutely, definitely, try having different user accounts for work and personal.
Having that separation is very important, and having different accounts is an cheap and easy way that almost everyone's OS already supports.
If that's you, absolutely, definitely, try having different user accounts for work and personal.
Having that separation is very important, and having different accounts is an cheap and easy way that almost everyone's OS already supports.
Yup. I have a room I use as an ‘office’, with a PC I use for both gaming and work. I look forward to the evening where I take a step back from it, cook dinner, then come back for some games :)
One bad thing is I keep trying to use my Discord push-to-mute keybind in zoom and it never works :(
One bad thing is I keep trying to use my Discord push-to-mute keybind in zoom and it never works :(
Not sure what OS you're using but there's various ways to script that so it works when zoom isn't focused.
Not the same but if you have to use the same laptop you can create separate work and leisure user accounts.
When I'm working I use a dock/monitor/mechanical keyboard and sit in an office chair, but after work I switch to just the laptop and sit on the couch. Every little bit helps.
When I'm working I use a dock/monitor/mechanical keyboard and sit in an office chair, but after work I switch to just the laptop and sit on the couch. Every little bit helps.
Used to do that before buying the console. Laptop isn't the best for gaming tho (mine atleast).
Couldn't stand doing that. It would just feel like I wasn't getting enough rest you know?
Now I just go to the living room and play in my Xbox. Dunno, I need to change environments to separate things.
Now I just go to the living room and play in my Xbox. Dunno, I need to change environments to separate things.
Good advice. Thank you. I'd also add some sort of exercise. It doesn't have to be intense, and sometimes it's not even about the physical benefits. Just the ritual and the focus on something other than work or current events and the various chemical things that happen with exercise might yield more mental benefits than physical. Getting outside makes it even better, if your circumstances allow that. It's like getting good sleep (another important thing BTW). The difference won't be immediate or dramatic, but over sufficient time you'll feel just a bit better.
I would second these guidelines as well to make wfh manageable.
I'll emphasize on 3. Manage your expectations with your direct reports. Let them know in order to stay sane you are going to have set schedule to manage stress while wfh. I do this with everyone I meet at work to set those expectations onset. It has helped tremendously.
I'll emphasize on 3. Manage your expectations with your direct reports. Let them know in order to stay sane you are going to have set schedule to manage stress while wfh. I do this with everyone I meet at work to set those expectations onset. It has helped tremendously.
I have been doing all of those for 327 days and have already had two instances when I was near burnout. Here's my schedule:
- https://taoofmac.com/space/blog/2020/10/29/2200
My recommendations (which are very much like yours):
- https://taoofmac.com/space/blog/2020/03/05/2230
Some venting on remote challenges:
- https://taoofmac.com/space/blog/2020/07/11/1830
- https://taoofmac.com/space/blog/2020/10/29/2200
My recommendations (which are very much like yours):
- https://taoofmac.com/space/blog/2020/03/05/2230
Some venting on remote challenges:
- https://taoofmac.com/space/blog/2020/07/11/1830
6. Don’t have young children
I messed up sadly on that one.
I messed up sadly on that one.
For me #1 is turning off my work laptop. I don't have any notifications on my phone either. I don't have any problems with turning work off.
Point #1 is a luxury in itself. If you can even say that, then circumstances are likely a lot easier for you.
Point #4... not everyone has that choice.
Point #4... not everyone has that choice.
Item #1 - 100% correct.
Item #4 - I fully disagree. Some choices are scary to actually make, but are healthy. For instance, my mom stayed with her abusive husband for many years because she had Stockholm syndrome. If you had asked her why didn't she leave during that time, she would say "I didn't have a choice". Ask her now, and she will tell you "Fear - fear of not knowing how things would work out."
Sometimes the hardest choices to make are the impossible choices.
Item #4 - I fully disagree. Some choices are scary to actually make, but are healthy. For instance, my mom stayed with her abusive husband for many years because she had Stockholm syndrome. If you had asked her why didn't she leave during that time, she would say "I didn't have a choice". Ask her now, and she will tell you "Fear - fear of not knowing how things would work out."
Sometimes the hardest choices to make are the impossible choices.
> 2. Establish communication throughout the day. This means having slack conversations (typed and video) that are casual. It's okay to vent on these calls.
Are you listening to the others venting too?
Are you listening to the others venting too?
Thanks for sharing. I appreciate your offering. Genuinely!
6. Drink water throughout the day.
I'm convinced that a large part of the stress people have been feeling this past year is due to dehydration and lack of proper nutrition.
I'm convinced that a large part of the stress people have been feeling this past year is due to dehydration and lack of proper nutrition.
I'm not at all convinced. I was in peak physical condition while training for mountain races this year, and I still experienced the same stress and anxiety everyone else did.
There's no scientific evidence that drinking extra water when you're not thirsty has any health benefits.
There are other things that dehydration manifests itself as beside just being thirsty though.
Lightheadedness is a big one for me.
Lightheadedness is a big one for me.
I definitely notice a positive difference when I drink more water than coffee but the core problems causing burnout are still there and unresolved. It's a boost not a fix.
I had to leave California (been there 6 years). I was lucky because I had four other room mates to keep me company but even with that it was tough. I also wasn't really enjoying what I was working on at my previous company (adtech) and needed a change.
I ended up moving to Taiwan a few weeks ago. Zero COVID here, and was surprisingly easy to immigrate (coming from someone who was dealing with the US immigration system as a Canadian). Working at a fun startup back on the consumer product side instead. Went to a bar for the first time in a year last week and was able to just sit in a coffee shop with 10 other people this morning. I'm still teaching myself to read/speak Chinese but it's totally worth it.
Anyone with experience with TypeScript/React interested in tagging along to Taiwan, send me an email (my email is in my hacker news profile). I'm actively hiring engineers now. We're a distributed team across many different countries but a few of us hang out in Taipei together at a coworking space. It's the best of both worlds, I'm able to WFH when I feel like it but still go to a public space to be around people
I ended up moving to Taiwan a few weeks ago. Zero COVID here, and was surprisingly easy to immigrate (coming from someone who was dealing with the US immigration system as a Canadian). Working at a fun startup back on the consumer product side instead. Went to a bar for the first time in a year last week and was able to just sit in a coffee shop with 10 other people this morning. I'm still teaching myself to read/speak Chinese but it's totally worth it.
Anyone with experience with TypeScript/React interested in tagging along to Taiwan, send me an email (my email is in my hacker news profile). I'm actively hiring engineers now. We're a distributed team across many different countries but a few of us hang out in Taipei together at a coworking space. It's the best of both worlds, I'm able to WFH when I feel like it but still go to a public space to be around people
Christ this sounds unbelievably nice. I'm quite jealous (as someone in the UK right now whose home is Australia...) I've heard inequality is quite bad in Taiwan - you can see a whole range of people living completely different lives including severe squalor. What have you observed?
I'm in the nice part of Taipei, I've seen drastically more inequality and squalor in Los Angeles than here. Especially post-COVID, my old apartment was in the Brentwood area and it's BONKERS how much more homelessness there is.
All in all, living standards seem very high, I haven't seen much homelessness in my day to day (especially compared to USA), but I've only been here for a month so maybe I've been in a bubble.
All in all, living standards seem very high, I haven't seen much homelessness in my day to day (especially compared to USA), but I've only been here for a month so maybe I've been in a bubble.
That's really great! I had a friend who did the same thing. We had a FaceTime while they walked around the city with no masks. It was surreal.
FYI for anyone interested, if you make $67,000USD a year, you can go to work in Taiwan too: https://taiwangoldcard.com
FYI for anyone interested, if you make $67,000USD a year, you can go to work in Taiwan too: https://taiwangoldcard.com
Have you done this then or know anyone who has? I'd be interested to hear your experience with the process.
This is _exactly_ what I did. Experience was great. SUPER easy. Took me about 2 months. Cost $300, filled out one form online, and sent a copy of my USA 2020 tax returns showing my income. Super, super easy.
If you're even KIND OF thinking about going I'd just apply today. You have nothing to lose and don't have to go if you don't want to. It gives a lot of flexibility.
If you're even KIND OF thinking about going I'd just apply today. You have nothing to lose and don't have to go if you don't want to. It gives a lot of flexibility.
Thanks. This might be a silly question but did you redact your social security number from the tax return you submitted? Also do you have a link to the official site you used?
Taiwan’s borders aren’t closed to non nationals?
Friend of a friend did the same thing as GP. I believe it “just” requires visa approval and quarantine.
A lot of countries with borders closed to non-residents for pandemic reasons still allow those with residency in. So if you can do the paperwork to get residency, you can usually get in to your new home.
I'm considering Taiwan too, any idea how Africans are treated, in Taipei?
I get the impression there are more black Africans than black Americans there. I recall some issues on mainland China with people violently scapegoating disease on them and anyone with dark skin. In most countries I've lived in nationality carried more weight than simply color.
I just want to go to music festivals lol, Ultra Fest are you kidding me!?
I get the impression there are more black Africans than black Americans there. I recall some issues on mainland China with people violently scapegoating disease on them and anyone with dark skin. In most countries I've lived in nationality carried more weight than simply color.
I just want to go to music festivals lol, Ultra Fest are you kidding me!?
Nationality actually is important in China as well. African Americans for example are treated much better than Africans (eg Chadians). However, taxi drivers might not be able to tell (though they do discriminate based on skin tone, this can affect south Asians as well).
My wife is Taiwanese and over time I've heard some anti-black racist stuff from some members of her family, almost all from older members of the family (people who are in their 70s and 80s). I'm not sure exactly where it comes from, though my instinct is to blame American media. I'm white myself, so this doesn't come up much with me. I mostly noticed it when some of her family visited us in the US.
I would expect much less of this from younger people, as Taiwan is probably the most socially progressive country in East Asia. That said, Taiwan is pretty homogeneous, so a foreigner of any color will be a rarity, and I suspect Africans are relatively uncommon among foreigners. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Taiwan#Foreign... for an actual demographic breakdown.
I would expect much less of this from younger people, as Taiwan is probably the most socially progressive country in East Asia. That said, Taiwan is pretty homogeneous, so a foreigner of any color will be a rarity, and I suspect Africans are relatively uncommon among foreigners. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Taiwan#Foreign... for an actual demographic breakdown.
(Disclaimer: not living in Taiwan.)
My impression is that Taiwan embraces multi-culture and multi-race better than China—though both are dominantly Han. As for Black experience in Taiwan, especially Taipei, you may be interested in [1].
[1]: https://international.thenewslens.com/article/141610
My impression is that Taiwan embraces multi-culture and multi-race better than China—though both are dominantly Han. As for Black experience in Taiwan, especially Taipei, you may be interested in [1].
[1]: https://international.thenewslens.com/article/141610
Thanks, I read some similar things although not as recent.
I concur 100% about Taiwan.
I am a US-born Taiwanese-American who lives in San Diego most of the time, but we spend most winters here in Taiwan to visit relatives and try and get mandarin language immersion for our kids.
Since we're all WFH and remote school anyway, we decided to spend an extended period of time this winter to ride out the pandemic.
If you're able to do so and are interested, I'd highly recommend it, since like the OP I have enjoyed being able to go out to eat dinner, hang out at coffee shops, etc.
To answer a few questions that have been raised so far:
* Unfortunately, Taiwan is now closed to non-residents. You are not able to come here on a visitor's visa anymore. However, as another poster mentioned -- it's relatively easy to apply to get a Gold Card (https://taiwangoldcard.com/). As long as you can document income above about $67k USD/year (the actual requirement is to be above $160k TWD / month), you should be able to get it. The process is normally supposed to take about 30 days... but since there has been so much interest in the program over the past year, I believe the process is now taking 45 ~ 60 days.
* If you have a spouse / children that you want to bring with you, the process will take even longer -- you can only apply for your spouse/kids resident visas after you get the Gold Card. This process usually takes an additional 2 or so weeks.
* Everyone who comes in is required to undergo a 21-day quarantine restriction. It's a 14-day strict quarantine (where they monitor you and call you at least once a day), and then a 7-day "self" quarantine after that. (Although there are rumors that they may increase the restrictions on the 7-day period)
* For the specific question about race -- if you are African / African-American, IMO you likely wouldn't see much in terms of direct, hostile racism. OTOH, I would imagine that you would likely encounter racialism -- https://www.huffpost.com/entry/racism-and-racialism-are-_b_6... is a good article distinguishing it.
There's a lot more I could post about the experience about coming out here and what life is like once you're here (especially as a software dev / digital nomad) -- but in the interest of brevity, I'll stop for now. But if you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me.
I am a US-born Taiwanese-American who lives in San Diego most of the time, but we spend most winters here in Taiwan to visit relatives and try and get mandarin language immersion for our kids.
Since we're all WFH and remote school anyway, we decided to spend an extended period of time this winter to ride out the pandemic.
If you're able to do so and are interested, I'd highly recommend it, since like the OP I have enjoyed being able to go out to eat dinner, hang out at coffee shops, etc.
To answer a few questions that have been raised so far:
* Unfortunately, Taiwan is now closed to non-residents. You are not able to come here on a visitor's visa anymore. However, as another poster mentioned -- it's relatively easy to apply to get a Gold Card (https://taiwangoldcard.com/). As long as you can document income above about $67k USD/year (the actual requirement is to be above $160k TWD / month), you should be able to get it. The process is normally supposed to take about 30 days... but since there has been so much interest in the program over the past year, I believe the process is now taking 45 ~ 60 days.
* If you have a spouse / children that you want to bring with you, the process will take even longer -- you can only apply for your spouse/kids resident visas after you get the Gold Card. This process usually takes an additional 2 or so weeks.
* Everyone who comes in is required to undergo a 21-day quarantine restriction. It's a 14-day strict quarantine (where they monitor you and call you at least once a day), and then a 7-day "self" quarantine after that. (Although there are rumors that they may increase the restrictions on the 7-day period)
* For the specific question about race -- if you are African / African-American, IMO you likely wouldn't see much in terms of direct, hostile racism. OTOH, I would imagine that you would likely encounter racialism -- https://www.huffpost.com/entry/racism-and-racialism-are-_b_6... is a good article distinguishing it.
There's a lot more I could post about the experience about coming out here and what life is like once you're here (especially as a software dev / digital nomad) -- but in the interest of brevity, I'll stop for now. But if you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me.
Congrats on the new gig. How has finding housing been? Any tips for other considering a similar move. Someone else mentioned the Gold Card visa. Have you heard or met anyone there that has used that?
I got the gold card. Super easy. Filled out a form online and uploaded my 2020 usa tax return proving my income. You don't even need a job lined up. 100x easier than moving to the USA.
It took about 4-5 hours of my time and 8 weeks of waiting for the government to approve it.
I got really lucky. I had a friend of a friend who I moved in with. He found his apartment through an agent who speaks English. Send me an email if you end up making the plunge and I'll connect you with our agent.
If you're considering a similar move: just do it. For real. It's not going to get any better any time soon internationally. It's easily the best decision I could have made. If you're worried about money either get a remote dev job or even just teach English here, there's a million schools around. It's incredibly cheap to live here compared to metro USA ($3000 USD/month gets you an upper class life, all in, including dining out, gym, drinks etc. You'll probably spend less than that if you even remotely budget). You can live a great life as a single person on even less than that.
It took about 4-5 hours of my time and 8 weeks of waiting for the government to approve it.
I got really lucky. I had a friend of a friend who I moved in with. He found his apartment through an agent who speaks English. Send me an email if you end up making the plunge and I'll connect you with our agent.
If you're considering a similar move: just do it. For real. It's not going to get any better any time soon internationally. It's easily the best decision I could have made. If you're worried about money either get a remote dev job or even just teach English here, there's a million schools around. It's incredibly cheap to live here compared to metro USA ($3000 USD/month gets you an upper class life, all in, including dining out, gym, drinks etc. You'll probably spend less than that if you even remotely budget). You can live a great life as a single person on even less than that.
left NYC for Singapore here, its basically Taiwan that speaks English. covid under control. happy to answer any qtns.
I don't think it's work from home as much as it is the lack of socializing altogether. If we were able to go out and socialize outside of working from home, I'm sure many people would be faring and feeling much better than what our current situation is.
I have only been around family for the entirety of the last year, and as much as being close and connected with them is, not being able to go out to eat or do anything else does take it's toll.
I have been staying connected with friends and strangers online through things such as discord, etc. and I would have to say it has helped tremendously. Getting regular interaction with others even if it's just over audio or video goes a long way through all of this.
I have only been around family for the entirety of the last year, and as much as being close and connected with them is, not being able to go out to eat or do anything else does take it's toll.
I have been staying connected with friends and strangers online through things such as discord, etc. and I would have to say it has helped tremendously. Getting regular interaction with others even if it's just over audio or video goes a long way through all of this.
We're building a social video chat for workplaces. It's got games, music, and a playful UI.
The idea is to stand in for the breakroom and the happy hour.
https://bash.video
(We're all ex-Kongregate - I was CEO).
The idea is to stand in for the breakroom and the happy hour.
https://bash.video
(We're all ex-Kongregate - I was CEO).
Only works if your company somehow already had the culture of actually using the breakroom or happy hour. If you're at a workaholic workplace where everyone already ate at their desk, or left the building to avoid everyone, a product like this has a real uphill battle.
Maybe you can find a way to break into this kind of mindset / market. Kongregate had a lot of great content, this implies you have a good team. I really wish you luck, we need things like this.
Maybe you can find a way to break into this kind of mindset / market. Kongregate had a lot of great content, this implies you have a good team. I really wish you luck, we need things like this.
Better than nothing I suppose but I'm afraid it's not even close to the real thing (for me)
I'm really excited to try this out. We try to have happy hours every few weeks but when there's 20 people in one meeting it's unwieldy.
I play a video game regularly that I don’t really like all that much (any more), but I do like the people who I play with and chat to over discord and I look forward to our sessions every Tuesday.
This. I don't understand how people constantly conflate wfh with a lockdown.
Perhaps because some people also conflate working and socializing?
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> I don't think it's work from home as much as it is the lack of socializing altogether.
This. I've been trying to make people understand this part. It's not the working from home on it's own.
This. I've been trying to make people understand this part. It's not the working from home on it's own.
I really enjoy playing collaborative video games with friends. Don't Starve Together and Fortnite were great ways to connect during the pandemic.
+1
The work-from-home has been a massive stress-reliever for me. I don't like cities, but most tech jobs are in cities. I get to live in a nice quiet suburb now. I loathe commuting in any form, and now I don't have to do that. There used to be work-from-home jobs, but they were the exception, and it was hard to be treated as a normal, engaged team member. Now nearly everyone in tech works from home, and even after the pandemic, it's going to be more widely accepted. It's tragic that is took a pandemic to get to this point, but it's the best thing that ever happened to my career.
I'm burned out from the lack of social contact, though. I don't mean coworkers; I'm glad I don't have to interact with coworkers beyond Zoom. I mean the lack of family-and-friends get-togethers; the inability to pop down to the pub for a quick beer with friends; the lack of new friendships made because of the distancing; having to treat everyone and everything as though they're radioactive; the constant doomscrolling. Everything non-work-related is stressful and hollow.
Work from home would have made my life better under other circumstances. I'd have gained all the commute time back; I'd be living near family, friends, and activities that I enjoy; I'd be far from cities that I dislike. I have some of those things, but in this perverse alternate reality, I feel like I'm being teased and can't have it.
One of the biggest downsides to the past year is the lack of vacations. I took a week off for a break, but spent it at home doing nothing. There's no way I'm getting on a plane before I'm vaccinated, nor going to a restaurant or bar, and I'm not keen on staying in a hotel.
I'm burned out from the lack of social contact, though. I don't mean coworkers; I'm glad I don't have to interact with coworkers beyond Zoom. I mean the lack of family-and-friends get-togethers; the inability to pop down to the pub for a quick beer with friends; the lack of new friendships made because of the distancing; having to treat everyone and everything as though they're radioactive; the constant doomscrolling. Everything non-work-related is stressful and hollow.
Work from home would have made my life better under other circumstances. I'd have gained all the commute time back; I'd be living near family, friends, and activities that I enjoy; I'd be far from cities that I dislike. I have some of those things, but in this perverse alternate reality, I feel like I'm being teased and can't have it.
One of the biggest downsides to the past year is the lack of vacations. I took a week off for a break, but spent it at home doing nothing. There's no way I'm getting on a plane before I'm vaccinated, nor going to a restaurant or bar, and I'm not keen on staying in a hotel.
Yes to everything you just said. Except, as a recluse by nature, I don’t miss friends or family (I didn’t spend time with them before). The changes in my life due to the pandemic have been an absolute godsend, and I’m thriving. I live in fear that the extraverts will take over again once vaccinations are a thing, and we’ll “forget” the quiet oases we’ve discovered away from the commute, the office, and the absolute communal everything that they crave.
I don’t want things to change. (Except all the deaths. Let’s do see to that.)
I don’t want things to change. (Except all the deaths. Let’s do see to that.)
Now now, we can't go having an economy with a large part of skilled labor. It must return to majority exploited service sector and low wage and benefit workers. Else how can those skilled enjoy what's left of a middle class lifestyle!?
/s
I also hope for a life that has less requirements for my physical presence for pointless activities/niceties work-related or otherwise.
/s
I also hope for a life that has less requirements for my physical presence for pointless activities/niceties work-related or otherwise.
Mischief has saved my mental health. Think of some creative things that WFH uniquely enables and do them. Here are examples of things I've done:
1. Planned a 1-hour prank on a coworker over Zoom
2. Left work early to play golf all afternoon
3. Had a beer at noon once or twice
4. Worked on a side projects for about 2-hours during "lunch" one day
5. Worked from a lake house I rented for 3 weeks
6. Worked from the beach one day
7. Finished all my assignments in a 4-day work week and spent the entire day Friday reading books
8. Ate extremely lavish takeout for breakfast or lunch
When you look back on this time, you'll be glad you did these things you would never otherwise do in an office.
1. Planned a 1-hour prank on a coworker over Zoom
2. Left work early to play golf all afternoon
3. Had a beer at noon once or twice
4. Worked on a side projects for about 2-hours during "lunch" one day
5. Worked from a lake house I rented for 3 weeks
6. Worked from the beach one day
7. Finished all my assignments in a 4-day work week and spent the entire day Friday reading books
8. Ate extremely lavish takeout for breakfast or lunch
When you look back on this time, you'll be glad you did these things you would never otherwise do in an office.
20 years ago, this was the norm in IT. Sometimes I hate whats happened to our industry.
I vaguely remember having slack time when there was truly nothing to do, everything was humming along, nobody was asking for anything. It's been a really, really long time.
Remember, it can always get worse. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system
I don't think I've ever worked at a company that did not have an infinite, ever-growing backlog. Still, slack time has always been plentiful, but that is not because there is nothing to do; it is because a low stress level is good for the individual and is good for the company.
I've used my lunch to take hot relaxing baths a number of times.
Tell us more about the prank! I like your style, although am running out of lavish takeouts near us... we've already tried them all.
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This made me chuckle. You're absolutely right.
Thank you for sharing your tactics and skills that have helped.
3 of these are banned in most lockdowns.
Reminder that if you're in a lockdown or want to help prevent the spread of Covid, stay at home. Travelling to and using holiday homes still contributes to the spread even if you maintain social distancing.
No judgement on lesinski, I do not know the guidance or prevalence of Covid where they are, but this thread is explicitly about lockdown environments so I think it's important to re-iterate that these are sadly not suitable things to do for many of us.
Reminder that if you're in a lockdown or want to help prevent the spread of Covid, stay at home. Travelling to and using holiday homes still contributes to the spread even if you maintain social distancing.
No judgement on lesinski, I do not know the guidance or prevalence of Covid where they are, but this thread is explicitly about lockdown environments so I think it's important to re-iterate that these are sadly not suitable things to do for many of us.
Serious question: the numbers are completely out of control as of right now (at least in the US). I'm not really seeing any benefits from any lockdowns so far (albeit we did do well in the summer). Most of the outdoor seating is just security theater. The outside areas are just cacooned indoor tents. There are indoor basketball games being run (here in NYC) and the rules are: 'wear a mask while you walk around the gym but youre allowed to sweat all over each other without one.' It all seems like a complete joke at this point.
I'm one hundred and ten percent on board with wearing masks and being cautious about what to do, but it's been a year of this already. It feels like renting a lakehouse for some much needed mental health recuperation is at the bottom of the barrel as far as risk factor goes. Considering California is seeing 30,000 a day Covid numbers, it feels like "stay home" when 50% of the country doesn't give a shit anymore is like throwing a cup of water on a house fire at this point.
Curious to hear at what point does your mental well being become more of a concern? 1 year? 2 years? 5 years of lockdown? while you have people in Florida going to nightclubs then flying elsewhere? I'm starting to feel like one of those people tying themselves to a tree with a "save the planet" t-shirt while other people walk by and laugh and continue to ignore the damage and live their lives. I'm not trying to sound defeatist, but I am seriously at a loss here.
I'm one hundred and ten percent on board with wearing masks and being cautious about what to do, but it's been a year of this already. It feels like renting a lakehouse for some much needed mental health recuperation is at the bottom of the barrel as far as risk factor goes. Considering California is seeing 30,000 a day Covid numbers, it feels like "stay home" when 50% of the country doesn't give a shit anymore is like throwing a cup of water on a house fire at this point.
Curious to hear at what point does your mental well being become more of a concern? 1 year? 2 years? 5 years of lockdown? while you have people in Florida going to nightclubs then flying elsewhere? I'm starting to feel like one of those people tying themselves to a tree with a "save the planet" t-shirt while other people walk by and laugh and continue to ignore the damage and live their lives. I'm not trying to sound defeatist, but I am seriously at a loss here.
Bad lockdowns are bad, yes. Good lockdowns have had amazing impacts in many places.
Australia is a good example. Victoria had out of control community spread (~100 infections a day), so locked down for 3 months. This meant no visitors at home, no going to work unless one of a few specific reasons, no general retail, masks mandated at all times outside the house, no travelling more than 5k for any reason, no travelling for exercise.
They got rid of it. This is what lockdown means. This is what the science shows us is effective. Wearing a mask and office jobs being done from home is not a lockdown.
Saying badly implemented lockdowns don't work so why bother is the attitude that is killing thousands of people a day.
Australia is a good example. Victoria had out of control community spread (~100 infections a day), so locked down for 3 months. This meant no visitors at home, no going to work unless one of a few specific reasons, no general retail, masks mandated at all times outside the house, no travelling more than 5k for any reason, no travelling for exercise.
They got rid of it. This is what lockdown means. This is what the science shows us is effective. Wearing a mask and office jobs being done from home is not a lockdown.
Saying badly implemented lockdowns don't work so why bother is the attitude that is killing thousands of people a day.
I dont disagree with the theory of a lockdown when necessary, but now that I look back at our year in the US...it now seems so obvious that this was never going to work. This place is simply too big with too many selfish idiots that want to do their own thing for how virulent COVID is. Leadership is a huge failure that didn't help at all, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised if we'd be in the same exact position of an uncontrolled spread even if we had a different sitting president with different views. 330 million people spread out across 50 states, across various local governments, some of who might not care as much is just too many people to get on the same page regardless of the message from the top.
Australia is 7% of the population of the US. Barely a comparison
Australia is 7% of the population of the US. Barely a comparison
Strong lockdown is literally illegal in the US, violating freedoms that have been through the courts many times. It has nothing to do with selfishness. The government could never impose it, and they knew that. In the US many rights are near absolute in almost all circumstances, including the current ones.
You may disagree with those freedoms but they are a matter of law. They cannot be erased when they are inconvenient, it would render the judiciary irrelevant.
You may disagree with those freedoms but they are a matter of law. They cannot be erased when they are inconvenient, it would render the judiciary irrelevant.
We shouldn’t be saying “Lockdowns don’t work,” because thanks to the idiots we really aren’t doing any kind of real lockdown. We should instead be saying “Uncoordinated and unenforced public health policy and lack of federal leadership doesn’t work.”
If your policy depends on everyone doing the right thing, it's awful policy.
Lockdowns have never been done in human history. They've never been possible, really; if there were no internet, it wouldn't even have been considered as a possibility. It takes a lot of hubris to claim that lockdowns were/are guaranteed to work. It is totally uncharted territory.
Lockdowns have never been done in human history. They've never been possible, really; if there were no internet, it wouldn't even have been considered as a possibility. It takes a lot of hubris to claim that lockdowns were/are guaranteed to work. It is totally uncharted territory.
This is false.
Lockdowns have been done repeatedly across the full time and space of human history. HN had a link just last week about one of the most well known, for bubonic plague, in Sardinia In 1582: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20210107-the-432-year-old...
They've just been used incredibly successfully in AU and NZ.
Lockdowns have been done repeatedly across the full time and space of human history. HN had a link just last week about one of the most well known, for bubonic plague, in Sardinia In 1582: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20210107-the-432-year-old...
They've just been used incredibly successfully in AU and NZ.
So your evidence to support a global, state-enforced lockdown is one case in Sardinia from 450 years ago?
If Trump had demanded a full lockdown in March like you're suggesting, it would have been opposed by everyone.
If Trump had demanded a full lockdown in March like you're suggesting, it would have been opposed by everyone.
You could just read the article to understand that this wasn't an isolated case, but the start of a general approach to public health, indeed even the phrase "quarantine":
>Lockdowns were not unique to Alghero. "In Florence, for example, they imposed a total quarantine of the city in the spring of 1631," says John Henderson, a professor of Italian Renaissance history at Birkbeck, University of London. And just as today, rule-breaking was common.
>"Over the year from the summer of 1630 to the summer of 1631, I found something like about 550 different cases that people were prosecuted for, for various infringements of the public health regulations," says Henderson. For most of that time, the city wasn't in full lockdown, but people were expected to self-isolate for 40 days if a member of their household was suspected of having the plague, and taken to hospital. This is where the word "quarantine" comes from – "quaranta giorni" means "40 days" in Italian.
Lockdowns like this have continued to be a part in public health approaches to infectious disease around the world.
The fact that a majority of Americans, convinced of their exceptionalism in every way, would oppose such an approach doesn't mean that it is inherently impossible or nonfunctional.
>Lockdowns were not unique to Alghero. "In Florence, for example, they imposed a total quarantine of the city in the spring of 1631," says John Henderson, a professor of Italian Renaissance history at Birkbeck, University of London. And just as today, rule-breaking was common.
>"Over the year from the summer of 1630 to the summer of 1631, I found something like about 550 different cases that people were prosecuted for, for various infringements of the public health regulations," says Henderson. For most of that time, the city wasn't in full lockdown, but people were expected to self-isolate for 40 days if a member of their household was suspected of having the plague, and taken to hospital. This is where the word "quarantine" comes from – "quaranta giorni" means "40 days" in Italian.
Lockdowns like this have continued to be a part in public health approaches to infectious disease around the world.
The fact that a majority of Americans, convinced of their exceptionalism in every way, would oppose such an approach doesn't mean that it is inherently impossible or nonfunctional.
Unenforced policies depend on everyone doing the right thing, and we agree they are doomed to fail. If there was any enforcement at all they could have made a dent. There are plenty of other policies in the USA that are effective because we manage to enforce. Do you know anybody who got a ticket for violating stay-at-home? I don’t.
All of those policies were developed over time and required buy in over a long period of time.
There is no timeline where the American public buys into the lockdowns that would be necessary in February 2020, which is when they would have had to happen.
There is no timeline where the American public buys into the lockdowns that would be necessary in February 2020, which is when they would have had to happen.
I don’t believe that. The vast majority of people this past year understood the seriousness, behaved well, did the right thing voluntarily, and likely would have supported a real stay-at-home order if it would mean the idiots also had to behave. We just didn’t try it because we are cursed with cowardly leadership.
> The vast majority of people this past year understood the seriousness, behaved well, did the right thing voluntarily
I don't buy that. Where do you live? I spent a couple of months over the summer in Texas (in a non liberal part) and there were like a grand total of 2 people who took any of it seriously. I think its evident based on what happened here that the majority didn't really care, but even if you happen to be right, we don't need a majority, we need 100%. Just go back to early February 2020 and remember that timeline. It only took 1-2 people, then there were 10, then 100, etc. It's exponential.
I think your only bet here with a majority (let's conservatively say 60% of people in agreeance with the severity of the virus) is to stop all international/domestic travel completely for a few months. Stop all flights, no interstate travel. Nothing at all, a complete military lockdown. That is the absolute only way to have stopped the spread, akin to what China did. And I simply don't buy that the USA in 2020 would do that without anything short of a revolt.
I don't buy that. Where do you live? I spent a couple of months over the summer in Texas (in a non liberal part) and there were like a grand total of 2 people who took any of it seriously. I think its evident based on what happened here that the majority didn't really care, but even if you happen to be right, we don't need a majority, we need 100%. Just go back to early February 2020 and remember that timeline. It only took 1-2 people, then there were 10, then 100, etc. It's exponential.
I think your only bet here with a majority (let's conservatively say 60% of people in agreeance with the severity of the virus) is to stop all international/domestic travel completely for a few months. Stop all flights, no interstate travel. Nothing at all, a complete military lockdown. That is the absolute only way to have stopped the spread, akin to what China did. And I simply don't buy that the USA in 2020 would do that without anything short of a revolt.
We never quite did enough in NYC. One gym in Williamsburg stayed open even during March and just kept paying the fine.
There just hasn't been that much enforcement. We came to the conclusion that we experienced a real lockdown instead of a short stint of heightened delivery use. It's absurd that indoor/outdoor dining is still allowed (also that restaurants can't get support). In my experience as a 20-something, most of my friends have been hanging (even house-partying!) indoors maskless, and it too leaves me at a loss for words. The "well I already tested positive" mentality is pretty common. Meanwhile my partner and family in Asia participate in heightened levels of lockdown when getting a fraction of the cases we get on a good day.
Agreed with you 100%.
The outdoor dining in tents drives me up a wall. Like, there is no way that's better than eating indoors.
The outdoor dining in tents drives me up a wall. Like, there is no way that's better than eating indoors.
I've had an unusual amount of travel during covid, so I've had occasion to be in sf (2 mos), SD (1 mo), LA (3 mos), and NYC (3 mos). Leaving compliance aside, since my skewed samples wouldn't be very helpful, policy and enforcement in NYC seem to have been way more lax than all the parts of CA I was in.
When were you in NYC? During the first 3-5 months of COVID, NYC was a complete ghost town with nothing open aside from essential stores. Once we got our numbers down to some of the lowest in the country (compared to other cities with similar populations), everything then became lax again, and now it's sort of this half-assed situation as I described above. Cases out of control, but you're still allowed to do various things that seemingly havent been very well thought out
On the policy/enforcement side, NY had indoor dining open until wayy later than CA did in early winter, despite having worse numbers and a much worse trajectory. (CA overtook NY again and now SoCal is screwed, but this was before that).
I do think that there's some non-trade-off potential here via the micro-targeting approach they started while I was there. I was living in Soho around the time that Jewish neighborhoods in Brooklyn were having outbreaks, and I really appreciated that neighborhoods super far from me with relatively little cross-travel (esp with the low subway ridership at the time) didn't unnecessarily fuck up my ability to go for dinner with a friend. By contrast, LA/CA tends to shut things down at a much higher level, so outbreaks in East LA affect policy in my parents' neighborhood on the Western border of LA County.
At the state level: https://ig.ft.com/coronavirus-chart/?areas=eur&areas=usa&are...
I do think that there's some non-trade-off potential here via the micro-targeting approach they started while I was there. I was living in Soho around the time that Jewish neighborhoods in Brooklyn were having outbreaks, and I really appreciated that neighborhoods super far from me with relatively little cross-travel (esp with the low subway ridership at the time) didn't unnecessarily fuck up my ability to go for dinner with a friend. By contrast, LA/CA tends to shut things down at a much higher level, so outbreaks in East LA affect policy in my parents' neighborhood on the Western border of LA County.
At the state level: https://ig.ft.com/coronavirus-chart/?areas=eur&areas=usa&are...
I might feel the same way if we weren't rolling out some very effective vaccines over the next several months. Just from a personal safety perspective, loosening up now risks being the soldier who dies in the last week of the war.
Depends. I know for me, under 50, not an essential worker or healthcare employee, in mismanaged California, I’m probably not eligible for the vaccine for another year, so I’m not really in the last week of the war.
>Reminder that if you're in a lockdown or want to help prevent the spread of Covid, stay at home. Travelling to and using holiday homes still contributes to the spread even if you maintain social distancin
It's a virus and doesn't spread outside very easily, especially during even a little wind.
Telling people to stay indoors is damaging to their physical health, damaging to their mental health, and is more of a political action than a scientific one.
Get outside as much as you can, go for walks, mask up if you walk through crowds or indoors.
It's a virus and doesn't spread outside very easily, especially during even a little wind.
Telling people to stay indoors is damaging to their physical health, damaging to their mental health, and is more of a political action than a scientific one.
Get outside as much as you can, go for walks, mask up if you walk through crowds or indoors.
Completely agreed. The mental and social instability that comes from "stay indoors" orders is far worse, and arguably contributes far more to societal issues, than the (arguably minimal or none) additional deaths incurred by going outdoors, especially in suburbs and rural areas.
Zero-tolerance lockdowns are the logical equivalent of abstinence-only sex education programs, and it's amazing that the advocates of each seem to be disjoint sets.
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But don't go inside at the golf club, don't travel more than maybe 5km, don't use public transport, deep-clean the rental house when you arrive and leave.
Seriously, it's easy to think that sitting in a rental house for 3 weeks is harmless, but then you go shopping, and even with a mask you still have a ~10% chance of spreading it, and then you're spreading it to a community likely a significant distance from your own.
Seriously, it's easy to think that sitting in a rental house for 3 weeks is harmless, but then you go shopping, and even with a mask you still have a ~10% chance of spreading it, and then you're spreading it to a community likely a significant distance from your own.
The virus has already spread to every community. Whether someone goes to a rental house or not no longer makes any difference.
How would going to a beach house contribute to spreading corona? The poster is probably American, so he's most likely going there in a private car. Not to mention that he's almost certainly not infected.
Look at Norway, they have very low numbers, but are not anywhere near this paranoid.
Look at Norway, they have very low numbers, but are not anywhere near this paranoid.
You're shopping in new grocery stores, potentially being in contact with emergency services due to increased travel, etc.
Each time you go to the grocery there will different people there anyway. The effects are very marginal.
It ain’t WFH causing it given that I’ve been remote 100% for a few years and noticed a significant productivity dip in the pandemic. It’s that the little things that made life interesting are missing (occasional dinner at a restaurant, concerts, sports, going to my gym). So life has turned super monotonous and dull, so work and everything else suffers. It also doesn’t help that there’s just a level of constant ambient misery and sadness if you interact with anyone since everyone’s in a similar place.
Honestly, it’s annoying but I don’t worry too much. Everyone is in the weird place now, and it’s not forever, so I don’t beat myself up if my productivity is slightly down or if I don’t feel super perky.
Honestly, it’s annoying but I don’t worry too much. Everyone is in the weird place now, and it’s not forever, so I don’t beat myself up if my productivity is slightly down or if I don’t feel super perky.
I agree with all this. I've been WFH remote for a little over 3 years now. My productivity went down a little the first couple years, but it's dipped a lot more in the past year, even though I was already "used to" WFH.
There was one particular instance that really stood out to me last weekend. I ran into a friend of mine for the first time in a while who asked "How have you been?" to which I replied "Well, it's hard to say -- the days kinda just blend together". He responded, "Yeah, same". And we sorta just left it at that. Sure we could've talked about specific work troubles or the media we've consumed lately or whatever, but it felt like we already had this understanding of what each others' lives have been like in isolation since they're largely identical, so why try to fake the "normal" conversation in abnormal times?
I should add I do have other friends I'm closer to with whom I have regular conversations about the minutia of quarantine life, but with this particular friend it was like "Well...we got nothing right now, let's agree to talk once life becomes interesting again".
There was one particular instance that really stood out to me last weekend. I ran into a friend of mine for the first time in a while who asked "How have you been?" to which I replied "Well, it's hard to say -- the days kinda just blend together". He responded, "Yeah, same". And we sorta just left it at that. Sure we could've talked about specific work troubles or the media we've consumed lately or whatever, but it felt like we already had this understanding of what each others' lives have been like in isolation since they're largely identical, so why try to fake the "normal" conversation in abnormal times?
I should add I do have other friends I'm closer to with whom I have regular conversations about the minutia of quarantine life, but with this particular friend it was like "Well...we got nothing right now, let's agree to talk once life becomes interesting again".
It's definitely not WFH. I've been WFH for 5+ yeas and my WFH accommodations are better than ever - a 100% remote company with a lot of empathy about how the pandemic is hitting people.
It's just different right now. I'm worn out. I feel dull. It doesn't matter if I crank for 8 hours or drag a day out to 16. It all feels the same right now.
It's just different right now. I'm worn out. I feel dull. It doesn't matter if I crank for 8 hours or drag a day out to 16. It all feels the same right now.
I think another (largely unspoken) facet of WFH is that the monotony should lead to a normalization of working less: shorter hours, lowered expectations. People home with children, spouses, having to cook and clean more dishes... you can't expect workers to maintain the same level of productivity as they achieved pre-WFH life. The 40-hour work week was already an antiquated concept pre-WFH; in these difficult times the expectations must be tampered, and openly so.
I love WFH. The lockdown is the problem. Can't really travel, or do the normal things in life.
I have the same experience. For me it's restaurants, beers, and parties.
Yes.
I wouldn't attribute it too strongly to WFH just that outside of work life is limited, cant travel, socialise (properly - not zoom).
Work tends to blend from day to evening, I definitely work later into the evening but I guess its my choice and partly because there's not much else to do (Netflixed out!)
Exercise helps. Reading. Eating well but allowing treats now and again (this is important).
I have booked some vacations for later in the year as something to look forward to (do this if you can, there will be a rush to the door when were in a better state and firms will not want everyone out at the same time).
I wouldn't attribute it too strongly to WFH just that outside of work life is limited, cant travel, socialise (properly - not zoom).
Work tends to blend from day to evening, I definitely work later into the evening but I guess its my choice and partly because there's not much else to do (Netflixed out!)
Exercise helps. Reading. Eating well but allowing treats now and again (this is important).
I have booked some vacations for later in the year as something to look forward to (do this if you can, there will be a rush to the door when were in a better state and firms will not want everyone out at the same time).
I may be a rare case. I have the opposite observation from the OP.
My productivity is off the charts this past year. Between cutting out all forms of small talk, commuting, unplanned meetings, and constant bite size updates.. I'm now finally for the first time totally in control of how I spend my day.
I have more time for work and more time for play. I've realized just how much time we waste on things that doesn't matter.
People say the small interactions are important to build relationships, but I would like to challenge that.
Relationships aren't built on small talk. It's built on teamwork and common goals.
I actually think I'm now closer to the people I work with because we work together in a more streamlined way, update only on the most important things, and when we achieve fantastic results, everyone ends the day on an up note.
My productivity is off the charts this past year. Between cutting out all forms of small talk, commuting, unplanned meetings, and constant bite size updates.. I'm now finally for the first time totally in control of how I spend my day.
I have more time for work and more time for play. I've realized just how much time we waste on things that doesn't matter.
People say the small interactions are important to build relationships, but I would like to challenge that.
Relationships aren't built on small talk. It's built on teamwork and common goals.
I actually think I'm now closer to the people I work with because we work together in a more streamlined way, update only on the most important things, and when we achieve fantastic results, everyone ends the day on an up note.
> People say the small interactions are important to build relationships, but I would like to challenge that.
In my experience, it depends a lot on the specific situation. Most people need a certain amount of conversation to "calibrate" on how to interpret others' words and actions. Who's a skeptic? Who's a neophile? Who uses sarcasm a lot? Who doesn't get sarcasm? Who expresses disagreement openly and often? Who hides it behind subtler signals, or avoids it altogether? (This one's often cultural BTW; the more diverse the group, the more important this calibration becomes IMX.) "Teamwork and common goals" don't ensure that this calibration will happen.
If it's a group who have already calibrated, you're more likely to get away with avoiding small talk. If you regularly have to interact with members of a broader group who don't already know each other well, things can take a bad turn. Tiny misunderstandings can add friction, and even snowball until people are working at complete cross purposes or are even in open conflict. In 30+ years, 10+ of that working full-time remote, I saw this happen over and over again. Introverts, extroverts, whatever. Nine times out of ten, just a little bit of conversation outside of the by-then-contentious subject areas helped a lot.
I'm not going to say your own experience is less real or important, but I will say it's a bit presumptuous to issue a general challenge or say things like "relationships aren't built on small talk" as an absolute truth. Often, they are.
In my experience, it depends a lot on the specific situation. Most people need a certain amount of conversation to "calibrate" on how to interpret others' words and actions. Who's a skeptic? Who's a neophile? Who uses sarcasm a lot? Who doesn't get sarcasm? Who expresses disagreement openly and often? Who hides it behind subtler signals, or avoids it altogether? (This one's often cultural BTW; the more diverse the group, the more important this calibration becomes IMX.) "Teamwork and common goals" don't ensure that this calibration will happen.
If it's a group who have already calibrated, you're more likely to get away with avoiding small talk. If you regularly have to interact with members of a broader group who don't already know each other well, things can take a bad turn. Tiny misunderstandings can add friction, and even snowball until people are working at complete cross purposes or are even in open conflict. In 30+ years, 10+ of that working full-time remote, I saw this happen over and over again. Introverts, extroverts, whatever. Nine times out of ten, just a little bit of conversation outside of the by-then-contentious subject areas helped a lot.
I'm not going to say your own experience is less real or important, but I will say it's a bit presumptuous to issue a general challenge or say things like "relationships aren't built on small talk" as an absolute truth. Often, they are.
It's a bit hard to disentangle the "USA is on fire" events over the last year from the "working from home is the cause".
For me, it's been really challenging during weeks of BLM protests: the seeming insignificance of tasks at work as compared to the plight of people across our troubled nation. Similarly, during the elections, when it seemed like we could have end up with 4 more years of inaction during a time when every year matters in averting a global warming catastrophe.
It's a bit easier now that the government is better aligned with what I think is a good direction.
For me, it's been really challenging during weeks of BLM protests: the seeming insignificance of tasks at work as compared to the plight of people across our troubled nation. Similarly, during the elections, when it seemed like we could have end up with 4 more years of inaction during a time when every year matters in averting a global warming catastrophe.
It's a bit easier now that the government is better aligned with what I think is a good direction.
Some perspective—for a decent chunk of the population, the USA has always been on fire for them.
There is something to be said for better understanding and empathizing what daily life has been like for a lot of our neighbors and colleagues who never really felt that things were right in our society.
There is something to be said for better understanding and empathizing what daily life has been like for a lot of our neighbors and colleagues who never really felt that things were right in our society.
Not to minimize, but society being "right" is an almost unachievable bar to hit. I tend to think in more relative terms. Most metrics of quality of life have been steadily improving for a long time. I think a lot of the things people see as being "on fire" in 2020 are things that have been going on forever, but we never bothered to worry about them because something more pressing was ahead of it in line.
The thing that has set my anxiety on fire isn't that society has problems, it's just how far apart people's base perceptions are. Obviously we've always had crazies, but the capitol insurrection shows just how far removed from reality a huge swath of the population is. We can have debates on how to solve issues of policing, or taxation or health care, but in my mind there is just no justification for the 74M people who think a lying racist moron is the answer to anything. And I genuinely believe that "lying racist moron" is objectively true at this point. He led an insurrection based on absolute lies and people ate it up. They just don't exist on the same plane of reality as I do.
The thing that has set my anxiety on fire isn't that society has problems, it's just how far apart people's base perceptions are. Obviously we've always had crazies, but the capitol insurrection shows just how far removed from reality a huge swath of the population is. We can have debates on how to solve issues of policing, or taxation or health care, but in my mind there is just no justification for the 74M people who think a lying racist moron is the answer to anything. And I genuinely believe that "lying racist moron" is objectively true at this point. He led an insurrection based on absolute lies and people ate it up. They just don't exist on the same plane of reality as I do.
These things are unsurprising given the state of the middle class in the US.
It’s no different than why hitler rose to power and scape goated the Jews.
When people are stretched thin the ugliest in them comes out and opportunistic “leaders” have exploited that for centuries.
You want to fix racism but you’re putting the cart before the horse. Fix the staggering wealth inequality first before you even think about having hope of addressing stereotyping and racism.
Downvote me all you want, but this is history. I’m not saying racism isn’t real, it’s very real and very ugly. It’s part of human nature to stereotype others, just as it’s human nature to fight and hoard resources. We have to combat these innate tendencies as a community by FIRST ensuring that all our people have the ability to live comfortably.
The unfortunate reality for most marginalized communities in the US is that they simply don’t have the time to sit and wait for the economic policies to shift back to favoring the middle class. They have to act now.
It’s no different than why hitler rose to power and scape goated the Jews.
When people are stretched thin the ugliest in them comes out and opportunistic “leaders” have exploited that for centuries.
You want to fix racism but you’re putting the cart before the horse. Fix the staggering wealth inequality first before you even think about having hope of addressing stereotyping and racism.
Downvote me all you want, but this is history. I’m not saying racism isn’t real, it’s very real and very ugly. It’s part of human nature to stereotype others, just as it’s human nature to fight and hoard resources. We have to combat these innate tendencies as a community by FIRST ensuring that all our people have the ability to live comfortably.
The unfortunate reality for most marginalized communities in the US is that they simply don’t have the time to sit and wait for the economic policies to shift back to favoring the middle class. They have to act now.
Many of us have been warning of this for some time. There are similar problems in Europe, but not so culturally extreme. Due to local history, the blindspots are not so prevalent and populists tend to go away.
What is most disconcerning though, is US people seeming to vote against their own interests. Maybe a third party instead of co-opting those who clearly don't have your own interest at heart. But then we see the predicament since the system/culture/billionaires don't support more parties and hard compromises.
What is most disconcerning though, is US people seeming to vote against their own interests. Maybe a third party instead of co-opting those who clearly don't have your own interest at heart. But then we see the predicament since the system/culture/billionaires don't support more parties and hard compromises.
> What is most disconcerning though, is US people seeming to vote against their own interests.
They are voting against their own economic interests, but clearly there are other non-economic interests that are more important to them in play here.
They are voting against their own economic interests, but clearly there are other non-economic interests that are more important to them in play here.
We see how loyalty is rewarded in the end game though. People might think they're being smart while being duped into wishful thinking. Just for someone else to get into the next leveraged position to sink everyone around them, in order to "win".
A political platform would be able to reason and explain projects using facts and figures.
A political platform would be able to reason and explain projects using facts and figures.
There is a difference between "racism exists" and "white supremacists are rife within law enforcement and political leaders". We are seeing the culmination of that going unaddressed for decades.
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Trump is a symptom/result of things that have been "going on forever". In the same sense, couldn't your shock come from being out of touch with what your fellow countrymen desired for the last few decades? Not to minimize, of course.
As one of those neighbors and colleagues, I genuinely thank you for sharing this perspective.
This is one of the major things I miss about drinking in bars. I've had many super enlightening conversations with people I would otherwise never talk with at bars after a couple beers. YMMV of course, but as a "happy drunk" who usually only frequented quiet/low key places, it really was nice.
It sounds like what you’re describing is an addiction to news. This leads to a terrible burn-out cycle: news addiction leads to reading more news (which routinely manipulates your emotions) -> less time spent actually working/reading books/going outside -> more time reading the news.
Completely agree, reading the news has been the single biggest detriment to my productivity. It's tough because it's so easy to do, and pretty much baked in at this point. Sometimes I feel like the only way to break it would be to switch to something entirely unrelated to sitting behind a keyboard all day.
Rioting in my city during the protests and the way it was underreported (initially) was how I experienced it, not as a plight of suffering students and bicyclists who were the marchers. Now crime here has gone up a lot, including a doubling of homicides, a tripling of shootings, and all sorts of random violence in neighborhoods not known for it.
Trapped in a one bedroom, working all day, and walking outside sucks. There's nowhere to go except online, and that's full of stressful garbage.
My dream is nature and simplicity.
Trapped in a one bedroom, working all day, and walking outside sucks. There's nowhere to go except online, and that's full of stressful garbage.
My dream is nature and simplicity.
I understand the dream of nature and simplicity, however living an austere lifestyle is very far from simple.
E.g. If you live in a cold, remote climate this time of year:
Do you have enough food for winter? water?
Will your plumbing freeze? Do you have enough firewood?
Will your access to the outside world disappear based on weather conditions?
... Definitely an extreme case that I describe above, but I certainly would take this set of challenges over what the cities are having to deal with.
E.g. If you live in a cold, remote climate this time of year:
Do you have enough food for winter? water?
Will your plumbing freeze? Do you have enough firewood?
Will your access to the outside world disappear based on weather conditions?
... Definitely an extreme case that I describe above, but I certainly would take this set of challenges over what the cities are having to deal with.
In a one bedroom working alone all day is unnaturally austere.
That's if you take an extreme interpretation of OP's dream of living in nature and simplicity. An alternative would be to move to a normal rural area of their current state where they still have power and are only 10-30 minutes from town. At least here in upstate NY, you can drive thirtyish minutes from many suburbs and end up in a nice spread out area with plenty of land for a decent price.
My city has had the same. My solution was leaving for a rental villa on the sea in a warmer climate. I highly recommend it.
The US events over the last year could indeed be stressful.
I am in Europe though, which makes me feel the main reason for this is lockdown/WFH.
I am in Europe though, which makes me feel the main reason for this is lockdown/WFH.
I'm in America though I work for a firm based in northern Italy (Lombardia), with colleagues in France, Portugal and Switzerland as well. The lockdowns faced by those in western Europe seemed extraordinarily difficult, in particular the much greater restrictions on being outdoors, and the fact that many Europeans live in much smaller homes than in the US and do not have private yards/gardens as commonly. It has been very tough for my colleagues. You're definitely not alone.
Have you been fully wfh in the EU as well?
Personally, I feel a bit like I'm going crazy. I really miss getting dressed up for the office and the social outlet of chatting with coworkers. We were flexible re: wfh before COVID but most of us still went in a few days a week.
I love my spouse but miss having more people than just him to interact with!
Personally, I feel a bit like I'm going crazy. I really miss getting dressed up for the office and the social outlet of chatting with coworkers. We were flexible re: wfh before COVID but most of us still went in a few days a week.
I love my spouse but miss having more people than just him to interact with!
Not only have we been fully WFH in the EU, in many areas we were not allowed to leave our homes except for groceries, for extremely long periods of time. I live in Madrid, this went on from March 30 to May 2 (I'm having trouble finding the exact dates, as they are not the same for every region in Spain, so we might have been locked down a bit longer than this).
After that, there were very rigid limitation about at what times we were allowed outside and at what times. At the beginning we were not allowed to be further than 1KM from our house, and only from 06:00 to 10:00 and from 20:00 to 23:00.
After that, there were very rigid limitation about at what times we were allowed outside and at what times. At the beginning we were not allowed to be further than 1KM from our house, and only from 06:00 to 10:00 and from 20:00 to 23:00.
I'm having a lot of stress due to wfh, but I realize that with scandinavian working conditions and an office job I have nothing to complain about (also pretty relaxed rules). I've saved money on not commuting. I need to help everyone get through this, I don't need help myself.
I wouldn't minimize your struggles simply because others potentially have it worse. It's okay to say "this really sucks for me" and also be thankful for the things you do have that others might not.
I've been enjoying watching the USA burn, mostly as a nice distraction from covid.
Yes, 100% this. When the virus isn't spiking in your area, I recommend meeting coworkers in coworking spaces. When it is spiking I've been going to parks to have beers with friends. A warm coat can help a lot.
I also found this video to be helpful https://youtu.be/snAhsXyO3Ck
[edit] Oh, and remote pairing over teamviewer turns a terrible isolated work day into a casual conversation with a friend about code. I find that 2 developers actually getting 1 job done is better than both being isolated and just scrolling reddit.
I also found this video to be helpful https://youtu.be/snAhsXyO3Ck
[edit] Oh, and remote pairing over teamviewer turns a terrible isolated work day into a casual conversation with a friend about code. I find that 2 developers actually getting 1 job done is better than both being isolated and just scrolling reddit.
The video is from CGP Grey and is called Lockdown Productivity: Spaceship You. It's about separating physically spaces at home to help your brain. It's incredible.
For anyone who hates clicking on YT links without knowing where they lead.
For anyone who hates clicking on YT links without knowing where they lead.
Remote pairing with VS Code Live Share + Slack/Zoom call has been a blessing. Great for focussing on work as always, but now also general conversation about random things that you can no longer physically do when in a lockdown.
Compile time is great "getting to know you" time.
I just came here to post that video. It seriously helped me improve my working from home. And I’d been working from home for years.
When ever I read job ads and it says pair programming I click next.
I would hate to do that. Idk how you can. I have this imagination of the partner either being a super need Hipster smartassing over everything or a real Dumbo. In both cases they would drive me blood pressure up.
I would hate to do that. Idk how you can. I have this imagination of the partner either being a super need Hipster smartassing over everything or a real Dumbo. In both cases they would drive me blood pressure up.
Personally, I've had some great experiences pair-programming on a specific project; but it's only ever been for a few days of intensive sprint, at intervals of 6-12 months. I wouldn't want it to be my regular mode of work, certainly.
It's a skill and an art like anything else. I had to teach it before I was really well versed in it myself. I was skeptical , but now swear by it.
Not like religiously... my pair for today wanted to break early to develop a deeper understanding of the code on his own, so we split up, but I do have to say I came into today pretty low, and left our session pretty high, and look forward to see what his results were and how he wants to go about refactoring tomorrow.
As your stereotypical autistic basement dwelling programmer type, who studied talking to humans like any other field of study, I have to say it really is just that, and it's also worth the effort. IMO.
Not like religiously... my pair for today wanted to break early to develop a deeper understanding of the code on his own, so we split up, but I do have to say I came into today pretty low, and left our session pretty high, and look forward to see what his results were and how he wants to go about refactoring tomorrow.
As your stereotypical autistic basement dwelling programmer type, who studied talking to humans like any other field of study, I have to say it really is just that, and it's also worth the effort. IMO.
I don't know about anyone else, but the "working from home" part isn't what's been getting to me.
It's working from home while my kids are also doing school at home. I feel like I never have any extended time to myself to think or work. There are constant interruptions and there's nowhere to escape to for focused work of any kind.
On top of that, I also have no escape from my family. I love my family, but not getting a break from them from time to time is frankly exhausting.
It's working from home while my kids are also doing school at home. I feel like I never have any extended time to myself to think or work. There are constant interruptions and there's nowhere to escape to for focused work of any kind.
On top of that, I also have no escape from my family. I love my family, but not getting a break from them from time to time is frankly exhausting.
Exactly the same. Add to that a small house with no separate office space.
I asked my family to not disturb me when working. It works great.
I asked my family to not disturb me when working. It did not work great.
Burnt out? A little. But not from WFH - I thoroughly prefer it. But the lockdown in general makes everything tougher. Being in one room/house all day inevitably collapses your world somewhat to just that space, I’m finding, and magnifies the smaller irritants to be much larger than they could or should be. So while I’m happy to continue to WFH forever now, it would be nice to be able to socialise in my leisure time. But it will end, and we’ll have that chance again. There’s always some light at the end of the tunnel, and I prefer not to think of it as the headlights of a train this time.
It's kind of like the same feeling you get after you graduate college and work for a year. You realize your whole social scene and life has completely changed and you feel weird / depressed about the lack of face to face interaction and making new connections.
A friend's Dr told him he has never written so many anti-anxiety prescriptions in his career until covid started. People are experiencing the same enmasse.
A friend's Dr told him he has never written so many anti-anxiety prescriptions in his career until covid started. People are experiencing the same enmasse.
is there a remedy to post-college loneliness? alumni gatherings? graduate school?
I'll tell you working on a master's was really invigorating for me. Some of the mental flexibility or plasticity returned that I hadn't felt since I got established in my work. I'd recommend it to anyone, though like everything else it's so much better when you can meet in person.
The PhD on the other hand is more like a regular job. That's not to say it's a bad job but it's more about getting things done than just taking time to grow in your knowledge.
The PhD on the other hand is more like a regular job. That's not to say it's a bad job but it's more about getting things done than just taking time to grow in your knowledge.
For me it was team sports or group hobbies, in non-pandemic times, anyway. Search for something that interests you and see if groups in the area exist for it. You always at least have the focus of the group in common with everyone there, and through which you make friends, and meet their friends, and create a new (real) social network.
And if the group's not for you, you can just stop going and find a different one. That's a lot harder to do with something like graduate school (speaking from experience).
And if the group's not for you, you can just stop going and find a different one. That's a lot harder to do with something like graduate school (speaking from experience).
I'd also love to hear the answer to this, especially having moved to a new city after school where I didn't know anyone ahead of time. Grad school looks real tempting these days, at least once everything's back in person.
100% this
One of the main things I miss from college was constantly meeting new people.
COVID really amplifies how boring life can be post-graduation.
One of the main things I miss from college was constantly meeting new people.
COVID really amplifies how boring life can be post-graduation.
I feel this burnout. Finishing up college remotely and starting full-time work without meeting anyone in person has been an odd experience--not to mention political news, social injustice, and climate change looming over all our heads or affecting our lives directly.
Here are a few things that have helped me:
1) I try to remember that I don't have control over (most) external events, but I do control how I react to them.
2) Having a daily routine is good, but change up that daily routine--introduce some randomness--so the days don't feel like they're flying by.
3) Find something to commit to, like a mindfulness practice or workout routine. Walking or running daily can be a great way to bookend your work day and decompress. I know some folks who use walks as a "virtual commute" at the beginning and end of the work day.
Here are a few things that have helped me:
1) I try to remember that I don't have control over (most) external events, but I do control how I react to them.
2) Having a daily routine is good, but change up that daily routine--introduce some randomness--so the days don't feel like they're flying by.
3) Find something to commit to, like a mindfulness practice or workout routine. Walking or running daily can be a great way to bookend your work day and decompress. I know some folks who use walks as a "virtual commute" at the beginning and end of the work day.
How did you decide where to live once you graduated if you don't need to move near your new job? I'm graduating soon and this is something I'm struggling with. I don't like my hometown at all, my college town isn't great and everyone I know there is moving away, and there's no reason to live near my full time job since it's going to be remote. How do you meet people in real life now that college is over?
I actually moved near my new job anyway. It's remote for now, but will return to (mostly) in-person eventually. Looking back, I should have stayed in my college town for lower cost of living -- but at the time, we didn't think the pandemic would last quite THIS long.
If you can, why not try one of the LCOL cities trying to attract remote workers with stipends or relocation assistance? Or, take the time to try out somewhere you've always dreamed of living?
Meeting people is tough, especially right now. You could keep an eye on local groups on sites like Facebook or Meetup. You can try to find people with similar interests that you can participate in safely, like playing outdoor sports or hiking. Some friends have found people to chat with on services like Bumble BFF, but YMMV. I'm trying to more consciously stay in touch with my existing friends--being more open to talking on the phone instead of a quick text, or setting up time to play games online.
Unfortunately, it's just a hard time to meet people.
If you can, why not try one of the LCOL cities trying to attract remote workers with stipends or relocation assistance? Or, take the time to try out somewhere you've always dreamed of living?
Meeting people is tough, especially right now. You could keep an eye on local groups on sites like Facebook or Meetup. You can try to find people with similar interests that you can participate in safely, like playing outdoor sports or hiking. Some friends have found people to chat with on services like Bumble BFF, but YMMV. I'm trying to more consciously stay in touch with my existing friends--being more open to talking on the phone instead of a quick text, or setting up time to play games online.
Unfortunately, it's just a hard time to meet people.
It's not the work-from-home that's been the problem for me (I've been remote since 2012) but having a third-grade kid home during work hours plus all the election craziness. Kids that age need lots of attention and interaction. At least this one does--I was fine sitting by myself reading a book for hours at that age. It's really hard to maintain focus with that entropic agent running around.
That said, I'm in a fairly high-risk group so lack of focus is a whole lot better than death. As bad as lockdown is for my kid it's better than losing one or both parents to COVID.
That said, I'm in a fairly high-risk group so lack of focus is a whole lot better than death. As bad as lockdown is for my kid it's better than losing one or both parents to COVID.
I am in germany, so, a few things are different. But the stores, restaurants etc. are closed and until recently, the place where i live had an curfew after 21:00.
The first few weeks of the lockdown were good: After work i have written on a story i wanted to publish for a few years now, learned Rust, build an analog computer and worked on some side projects... but now my wife (who is lucky to work full time) and i are moving slowly to the funny farm. Dark and rainy weather, a complete lack of normal social interaction with people outside of work and not many distractions are taking its toll...
The first few weeks of the lockdown were good: After work i have written on a story i wanted to publish for a few years now, learned Rust, build an analog computer and worked on some side projects... but now my wife (who is lucky to work full time) and i are moving slowly to the funny farm. Dark and rainy weather, a complete lack of normal social interaction with people outside of work and not many distractions are taking its toll...
Ring up your friends and have quiz nights over Zoom. Takes time to organize, but works out OK.
If there’s anything likely to tip me over the edge (which I am thankfully not close to), it will be another Zoom call.
I was definitely feeling a burn-out by End of December, the main causes:
1. Kids at home including a 2yo who needed regular attention.
2. Working late nights to get un-disrupted time for work (see 1).
3. Fear of getting a bad performance review (it ended up being not so great anyways).
4. Lack of interactions with co-worker and working odd hours led me to waste quite a bit of time on re-inventing the wheel at work.
5. Seattle freeze/weather didn't help either and a big stretch without vacation.
I took a 2 week break at end of December which coincided with end of our perf review period. Though I didn't get the (perf) rewards I wanted, having it be over gave me a lot of clarity.
I felt we were lucky with flexible and stable jobs and good friends close-by. However, I always had a feeling/pressure that I should be able to do it all (exercise/work/manage kids), and it was hard to balance all the expectations I had of myself leading to stress and an eventual burn-out.
1. Kids at home including a 2yo who needed regular attention.
2. Working late nights to get un-disrupted time for work (see 1).
3. Fear of getting a bad performance review (it ended up being not so great anyways).
4. Lack of interactions with co-worker and working odd hours led me to waste quite a bit of time on re-inventing the wheel at work.
5. Seattle freeze/weather didn't help either and a big stretch without vacation.
I took a 2 week break at end of December which coincided with end of our perf review period. Though I didn't get the (perf) rewards I wanted, having it be over gave me a lot of clarity.
I felt we were lucky with flexible and stable jobs and good friends close-by. However, I always had a feeling/pressure that I should be able to do it all (exercise/work/manage kids), and it was hard to balance all the expectations I had of myself leading to stress and an eventual burn-out.
You’re not the only one.
I am personally taking a mental health day today. Yesterday I hit a brick wall where I am unable to produce.
Anxiety tendencies have been creeping up over the months because I’m in a sensory overloading environment, and I struggle to make the choice each day to kill 30 minutes for a fake commute to help keep my sanity. I gain energy collaborating with others, even if I’m the main or only person driving things.
I’m aware I need to monitor my own health more, and be ok to take breaks. Even take days off. It’s tough, the anxiety doesn’t seem to subside until I produce well. This creates a perverse incentive, a toxic spiral. Showing some vulnerability and asking for help or care is tough too. This whole quarantine thing is stretching in some ways, damaging in others.
And yet here we are.
edit: I want to clarify, because top comments seem to be talking about the USA in the news. I am not experiencing anxiety because of the news, or worry of safety for self or others because of the pandemic. For me it’s simply mental health issues because of isolation, loss of normal healthy coping patterns, and sensory exhaustion and sensory over sensitivity in my home converted to a home, school, and office all in one. Sucks.
I am personally taking a mental health day today. Yesterday I hit a brick wall where I am unable to produce.
Anxiety tendencies have been creeping up over the months because I’m in a sensory overloading environment, and I struggle to make the choice each day to kill 30 minutes for a fake commute to help keep my sanity. I gain energy collaborating with others, even if I’m the main or only person driving things.
I’m aware I need to monitor my own health more, and be ok to take breaks. Even take days off. It’s tough, the anxiety doesn’t seem to subside until I produce well. This creates a perverse incentive, a toxic spiral. Showing some vulnerability and asking for help or care is tough too. This whole quarantine thing is stretching in some ways, damaging in others.
And yet here we are.
edit: I want to clarify, because top comments seem to be talking about the USA in the news. I am not experiencing anxiety because of the news, or worry of safety for self or others because of the pandemic. For me it’s simply mental health issues because of isolation, loss of normal healthy coping patterns, and sensory exhaustion and sensory over sensitivity in my home converted to a home, school, and office all in one. Sucks.
I totally love it. Being an introvert and a digital-first person this is amazing for me. Even I miss some social interactions now and then, but productivity wise, mental health, feeling useful and happy this is insanely good for someone like me.
I dread the day the world returns to normal from THIS perspective, but of course longing for the sake of business owners, everyone who feels bad in this environment and so on.
At least for a moment my way and preferences has become the norm, and perhaps people who prefer the other normal will somewhat appreciate the constant struggles people like me have in the normal world instead. How they feel now in isolation, I feel every day of my life in regular society that they long for and that is the norm.
I dread the day the world returns to normal from THIS perspective, but of course longing for the sake of business owners, everyone who feels bad in this environment and so on.
At least for a moment my way and preferences has become the norm, and perhaps people who prefer the other normal will somewhat appreciate the constant struggles people like me have in the normal world instead. How they feel now in isolation, I feel every day of my life in regular society that they long for and that is the norm.
I wonder what % of the human population feel similar to you now compared to say, 40 years ago?
Video strips away the nourishing part of human interaction for me. We can exchange information and coordinate tasks, latency/interruption issues notwithstanding, but I just get nothing from socializing this way. I've let most of my friendships go. I'm putting in the work to sustain a couple at least at surface level, but emotionally they're long gone. I just can't bring myself to care about objects on screens.
Am I alone to feel work-from-home made things worse?
We don't know what the road not taken would look like. It's enormously hard to get perspective on just how bad things would be if we had done something else. This is a perennial human problem. We are really terrible at counting the disasters that should have happened but didn't.
The other thing is 2020 was enormously stressful. People under stress tend to look for something to blame. In the face of an event (like a pandemic) where they can't control the actual source of the stress, they often look for a scapegoat in the form of something they feel they have some kind of control over.
Blaming it on working from home so you can be mad about this policy will tend to make people feel like "This is someone's fault and we could have done something different." and helps mitigate feelings of helplessness. Humans have a tendency to be more comfortable with righteous anger and looking for someone in authority to hold responsible than accepting that "This just really sucks and was probably going to suck no matter what we did."
Am I happy with how things were handled? No, I'm not.
But I have long worked from home due to my medical situation, so I am disinclined to treat that aspect of this situation as the scapegoat I want to hang my angst and ire upon.
We don't know what the road not taken would look like. It's enormously hard to get perspective on just how bad things would be if we had done something else. This is a perennial human problem. We are really terrible at counting the disasters that should have happened but didn't.
The other thing is 2020 was enormously stressful. People under stress tend to look for something to blame. In the face of an event (like a pandemic) where they can't control the actual source of the stress, they often look for a scapegoat in the form of something they feel they have some kind of control over.
Blaming it on working from home so you can be mad about this policy will tend to make people feel like "This is someone's fault and we could have done something different." and helps mitigate feelings of helplessness. Humans have a tendency to be more comfortable with righteous anger and looking for someone in authority to hold responsible than accepting that "This just really sucks and was probably going to suck no matter what we did."
Am I happy with how things were handled? No, I'm not.
But I have long worked from home due to my medical situation, so I am disinclined to treat that aspect of this situation as the scapegoat I want to hang my angst and ire upon.
I interpreted their words as meaning the pandemic made their life worse. I didn't think they were remarking on the pandemic strategy as a whole.
I feel this very acutely, though as a parent of a small child the reasons for my particular inefficiency might be different than others.
But there is something about the mental exhaustion all this causes. I do still have some free time here and there. In the "normal times" I'd be twiddling around with a side project, but all I do now is watch TV or play video games. I dislike it: I feel like I'm wasting time. But my brain is also utterly fried and the idea of engaging too deeply just feels impossible.
But there is something about the mental exhaustion all this causes. I do still have some free time here and there. In the "normal times" I'd be twiddling around with a side project, but all I do now is watch TV or play video games. I dislike it: I feel like I'm wasting time. But my brain is also utterly fried and the idea of engaging too deeply just feels impossible.
>I feel this very acutely, though as a parent of a small child
I have an early teen w/ADHD and the two days he's in school are fine, but the three days he's learning from home are a challenge. Each home day is a struggle due to weak executive functioning and the plethora of channels and sources of information required to simply understand the day's work. None of the normal school resources are available, so it's up to mom and dad to help get through the day. I rarely get 30 minutes of flow time on Wednesday through Friday.
I have an early teen w/ADHD and the two days he's in school are fine, but the three days he's learning from home are a challenge. Each home day is a struggle due to weak executive functioning and the plethora of channels and sources of information required to simply understand the day's work. None of the normal school resources are available, so it's up to mom and dad to help get through the day. I rarely get 30 minutes of flow time on Wednesday through Friday.
No, it's rough.
I don't particularly like being at home a lot. I constantly get distracted by things I need to do at home, or wanting to do hobbies, etc. and I don't have a good workspace like I did at work.
WFH and the ability now to work from anywhere is great in a way. At least half my team has no plan to return to office full time. I do think, though, that collaboration and the soft skills of our work area will suffer. There is a lot of collaboration, discussion, and coalition building done in person, in hallways and over lunch that doesn't happen nearly as well on Zoomslack.
Anyway, yeah, it sucks, and I miss the old world.
I don't particularly like being at home a lot. I constantly get distracted by things I need to do at home, or wanting to do hobbies, etc. and I don't have a good workspace like I did at work.
WFH and the ability now to work from anywhere is great in a way. At least half my team has no plan to return to office full time. I do think, though, that collaboration and the soft skills of our work area will suffer. There is a lot of collaboration, discussion, and coalition building done in person, in hallways and over lunch that doesn't happen nearly as well on Zoomslack.
Anyway, yeah, it sucks, and I miss the old world.
The past 9 months have been the best ones of my working life. No more long commutes, no more inane meetings, no more rude interruptions to talk about sports or GoT or whatever.
Online meetings have become very efficient as nobody tries to talk over each other. There are way fewer "immediate" deadlines as everybody accepts that e-mail replies will not be immediate.
I hope this becomes the norm for me for the rest of my career.
Online meetings have become very efficient as nobody tries to talk over each other. There are way fewer "immediate" deadlines as everybody accepts that e-mail replies will not be immediate.
I hope this becomes the norm for me for the rest of my career.
Burnout is easy to ignore when you're getting free food every day, and hard to ignore when sitting alone in a box.
When it's safe, I plan to flee California and find out what my family's been up to for the last 14 years.
When it's safe, I plan to flee California and find out what my family's been up to for the last 14 years.
I'm doing better, but I was burnt out this past summer/fall. It didn't help that I had just started with the office 2 months prior to the lockdowns and WFH situation. I was not properly integrated into the team yet, and they were not prepared to actually get anything done with remote work so the first 2 months of the lockdown were very idle times (a lot Pluralsight training because my C# was rusty and I couldn't access the codebase anyways).
It's gotten better with some structural changes at the office as they've adapted to the situation.
It's gotten better with some structural changes at the office as they've adapted to the situation.
I live in Michigan and currently don't feel comfortable going to the gym, so recently my wife and I have been trying to force ourselves to take walks in the neighborhood after bundling up as necessary. The difference is night and day.
In addition, Vitamins C/D and Caffeine can also make a huge difference.
Edit: also (and this is advice for myself), don't spend too much time following political news/COVID numbers/etc. I still follow these, but I have to remind myself that spending 1-2 hours a day vs. 6-8 hours doesn't really help me solve any of the things that are wrong in the world, and I end up losing time to spend with family, on side projects, etc. and suffer more from anxiety/depression.
Edit 2: if you can, get a sitting/standing desk. Spending too much time in either position is harmful in different ways, so it's best to alternate between them throughout the day. An under-the-desk elliptical (for when sitting) and a comfortable mat (for when standing) are also helpful.
In addition, Vitamins C/D and Caffeine can also make a huge difference.
Edit: also (and this is advice for myself), don't spend too much time following political news/COVID numbers/etc. I still follow these, but I have to remind myself that spending 1-2 hours a day vs. 6-8 hours doesn't really help me solve any of the things that are wrong in the world, and I end up losing time to spend with family, on side projects, etc. and suffer more from anxiety/depression.
Edit 2: if you can, get a sitting/standing desk. Spending too much time in either position is harmful in different ways, so it's best to alternate between them throughout the day. An under-the-desk elliptical (for when sitting) and a comfortable mat (for when standing) are also helpful.
It's pretty bad. The fact that there's zero reason to go outside aside from groceries makes life really boring. I feel like I'm once again stuck in my small hometown where there was nothing to do. Every day feels the same.
This started to negatively impact my work - I feel like I'm back to being a junior developer except without the drive and passion I had back then. I just feel apathetic about working in general and I do the bare minimum because there's nothing to look forward to after work.
This describes my state pretty well too. I was already considering how to find more meaning or engagement with my work but lockdown has made those feelings far far more extreme. I'm hopefully taking a three month sabbatical to get away from it for a bit soon and consider what to do about it, but considering the worsening state of covid in the UK I don't know what I'll actually be able to do during the time.
If you have vacation time to burn or unlimited PTO, take it. I was surprised how many people won't take time off because they can't go anywhere. As a big fan of staycations, I recommend them. Hide your work laptop for a week and just relax.
I had a major spike of anxiety during the winter break when I took 10 days off. Work is stressful and tiring but if I don't work, somehow my anxiety is triggered and I worry about work anyway.
Being indoors in a one bedroom apartment makes you crazy.
I admire people who took vacation alone and enjoyed themselves. I had many plans for which I completely lost motivation.
Being indoors in a one bedroom apartment makes you crazy.
I admire people who took vacation alone and enjoyed themselves. I had many plans for which I completely lost motivation.
If you can bank your vacation, then feel free to carry some over. Just don't burn it. As peruvian say take a staycation. Or just take a Friday or Monday off have a couple 3 day weekends to use your vacation time.
Another vacation tip is to take your vacation across weeks (Wen to Tues). That way you have short work weeks (2 or 3 days) around the vacation.
Another vacation tip is to take your vacation across weeks (Wen to Tues). That way you have short work weeks (2 or 3 days) around the vacation.
As mentioned by some in the comments, the thing that drained me the most (probably more than the isolation itself) was that I could see the vast majority of people being so compliant and accepting drastic reduction in freedoms without raising a finger and even encouraging the government to be more drastic.
Because of this it has now become trivial to impose new lockdown measures. "We have a few cases there? ok, we just place this under strict lockdown". It's become so easy for them to cut through freedoms. Maybe some measures are needed, even strict ones, but the lack of serious discussion surrounding it is terrifying for me.
To give an example, where I live, they instated a nighttime curfew and mask wearing even outdoors. They did this when there were 10.000 cases a day. We now have around 2-3000 cases (majority of them in some areas only) and still have the same measures country-wide.
A right is easy to loose and hard to gain back I guess...
Because of this it has now become trivial to impose new lockdown measures. "We have a few cases there? ok, we just place this under strict lockdown". It's become so easy for them to cut through freedoms. Maybe some measures are needed, even strict ones, but the lack of serious discussion surrounding it is terrifying for me.
To give an example, where I live, they instated a nighttime curfew and mask wearing even outdoors. They did this when there were 10.000 cases a day. We now have around 2-3000 cases (majority of them in some areas only) and still have the same measures country-wide.
A right is easy to loose and hard to gain back I guess...
I think I only started feeling burned out in the past few months, despite doing a masters degree in parallel with full time work as a software engineer for the past 3 years. Now that I'm supposed to be working on my thesis in my "free time" when there's little diversity in the proper free time, it's been weighing on me. I can barely focus, the hours when I'm doing my job are actually the most pleasant because I don't have to worry about the pressure from the project. Lots of problems going to sleep as well because I keep worrying I'll fail the masters.
While there's no proper pain involved (maybe a bit of anxiety from time to time), my productivity has taken a huge dip and it's really frustrating.
While there's no proper pain involved (maybe a bit of anxiety from time to time), my productivity has taken a huge dip and it's really frustrating.
[deleted]
I'm not burnt out from WFH (I was doing that beforehand) but I'm definitely burnt out on Covid and the state of the world. We're into a second much longer lockdown in Iceland and it's just a constant stress. Compared with many we've had it much easier though.
I also work for a US based company and have friends and family who live there so the whole political situation there has been a stress. Then I'm British so I also have the whole Brexit fuck up adding it's own unsubtle kicking to my ribs.
I also work for a US based company and have friends and family who live there so the whole political situation there has been a stress. Then I'm British so I also have the whole Brexit fuck up adding it's own unsubtle kicking to my ribs.
Burned out hard af this year around September. My wife loves WFH. I hate it. I wound up quitting my job at the start of November and taking a couple months off before starting the new gig. I think that time off helped. I'm still eager to get back into the office.
As others have mentioned, having a dedicated office space really does help. A plant on the desk is nice. There's soem light at the end of the tunnel, thankfully.. I think I can whiteknuckle my way through the end.
As others have mentioned, having a dedicated office space really does help. A plant on the desk is nice. There's soem light at the end of the tunnel, thankfully.. I think I can whiteknuckle my way through the end.
I'm ok working from home - I just wish the Ontario government would reopen schools so the kids weren't cooped in the house all day.
The biggest downside to WFH for me has been the significant increase in synchronous meetings. While my client was _technically_ able to switch seamlessly to 100% remote, they haven't changed _how_ they work so I spend 80-90% of my time in meetings leaving very little time for actual work which results in overtime.
The biggest downside to WFH for me has been the significant increase in synchronous meetings. While my client was _technically_ able to switch seamlessly to 100% remote, they haven't changed _how_ they work so I spend 80-90% of my time in meetings leaving very little time for actual work which results in overtime.
Yes.
To avoid burn out, I'm being more disciplined with slowing down at the end of the day and exercises (even walking outside is good enough).
To slowdown, I'm trying to read at least 30 minutes at time. And try to go for a walk 2-3 times a week (not much, but makes a huge difference on my energy and humor).
Also, sleeping well everyday is a priority for me - I'm not willing to exchange sleep for work, reduces my productivity significantly and makes me unhappy.
To avoid burn out, I'm being more disciplined with slowing down at the end of the day and exercises (even walking outside is good enough).
To slowdown, I'm trying to read at least 30 minutes at time. And try to go for a walk 2-3 times a week (not much, but makes a huge difference on my energy and humor).
Also, sleeping well everyday is a priority for me - I'm not willing to exchange sleep for work, reduces my productivity significantly and makes me unhappy.
I'm burnt from having to continue to go into work despite the pandemic (which I believe is the reason I ended up catching COVID), I'm burnt from having to listen to nutjob conspiracy theories all year, I'm burnt from watching the democratic process be systematically undermined by foaming-at-the-mouth entitled asshats and their gloriously corrupt cheeto-colored leader, and I'm burnt from those people getting a pass by party-before-country fuckheads.
I only got to work from home while I was quarantined because of the plague, so no, I don't think work-from-home is responsible for my burn out.
I only got to work from home while I was quarantined because of the plague, so no, I don't think work-from-home is responsible for my burn out.
"Please don't fulminate."
"Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents."
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
"Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents."
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
I know my choice of words was particularly unrestrained in this instance. I have done my best to use more appropriate language in other threads, but felt it was necessary here to better convey the degree to which these factors are far more significant contributers to my current mental state than "working from home" and "being on extended lockdown" ever could.
Ok, that's fair.
I can't stomach Facebook friends posting conspiracy theories and them even getting likes on those.
I explode. I've written a ranting website just for that purpose, to not fecate over Facebook but on my on ranting service, which apparently only I seem to be using.
1 such idiot post and I snooze the person for 30 days. My mental health is more important than his freedom of expression.
Yes. Working from home has really hurt my business and social life. There are some tasks and interactions that are just better in person.
Fwiw I was feeling very much this way until recently, and blamed it on WFH. I love working in an office and missed my commute, having clear boundaries to the day, having good touchpoints with colleagues. I just felt completely unproductive, highly distractible, and procrastinated everything.
Then I took two weeks off over Christmas/New Years and drove across the country to a new location where I'm working for a couple months, and it's been markedly better since then. I don't know how much was the change of scenery and how much was the vacation, but it made me realize at least part of the problem was general burn-out rather than WFH specifically.
If you're like me and many people I know, you probably haven't taken much vacation because there's not many places to go. I'd encourage you to use some of those days and go into nature, drive somewhere far, whatever you can that feels Covid-safe and mixes things up!
Then I took two weeks off over Christmas/New Years and drove across the country to a new location where I'm working for a couple months, and it's been markedly better since then. I don't know how much was the change of scenery and how much was the vacation, but it made me realize at least part of the problem was general burn-out rather than WFH specifically.
If you're like me and many people I know, you probably haven't taken much vacation because there's not many places to go. I'd encourage you to use some of those days and go into nature, drive somewhere far, whatever you can that feels Covid-safe and mixes things up!
I work for several years from home now. It was hard for the first year. What helped me:
1) no elastic hours - work from 8 to 16. Otherwise my private stuff mixed with work, I was working to late hours and was never satisfied with progress.
2) Talking with people. Even if I am 100% sure what to do, I call sometimes someone or write to talk about it prior to code review. I bond with team and it is just beneficial for everyone, not only project.
3) Finding the right flow. It means at work you have to work because there is not much anything else to do. At home you have plenty of better things to do. So it is about finding a right mental spot, thinking about what I will do next, what I will do tomorrow, build enthusiasm about it.
4) Finding the place. It means the proper chair, desk, standing desk, to the wall or against it. Little changes can make a great difference. However I don't believe it is about spending too much money on stuff. I have bought a standing desk made of paper for 10 dollars. And it is great, does not take space.
5) Taking breaks. Sometimes I just have to take a break and do anything else. I have learned it is better to recognize it early on, and just go for a walk or do anything else. Taking care of mental health is one of the greatest skills human can learn. I am still learning it.
6) Taking vacations. Even if there is nothing to do, or nowhere to go. Taking some time off is essential.
7) A hobby. There are some things possible to do at home. For me it was designing fantasy programming card games - Summon The JSON.
8) Excercising - yoga, stretching, and even running in a place with treadmill videos on my TV. It helps a lots.
9) Going out. Even to the forrest, also helps to keep the spirit high.
Most of all I always think about others, that everyone has the same or worse than me. So maybe I am a little bit less productive, but I wake up every day, and do what I can.
1) no elastic hours - work from 8 to 16. Otherwise my private stuff mixed with work, I was working to late hours and was never satisfied with progress.
2) Talking with people. Even if I am 100% sure what to do, I call sometimes someone or write to talk about it prior to code review. I bond with team and it is just beneficial for everyone, not only project.
3) Finding the right flow. It means at work you have to work because there is not much anything else to do. At home you have plenty of better things to do. So it is about finding a right mental spot, thinking about what I will do next, what I will do tomorrow, build enthusiasm about it.
4) Finding the place. It means the proper chair, desk, standing desk, to the wall or against it. Little changes can make a great difference. However I don't believe it is about spending too much money on stuff. I have bought a standing desk made of paper for 10 dollars. And it is great, does not take space.
5) Taking breaks. Sometimes I just have to take a break and do anything else. I have learned it is better to recognize it early on, and just go for a walk or do anything else. Taking care of mental health is one of the greatest skills human can learn. I am still learning it.
6) Taking vacations. Even if there is nothing to do, or nowhere to go. Taking some time off is essential.
7) A hobby. There are some things possible to do at home. For me it was designing fantasy programming card games - Summon The JSON.
8) Excercising - yoga, stretching, and even running in a place with treadmill videos on my TV. It helps a lots.
9) Going out. Even to the forrest, also helps to keep the spirit high.
Most of all I always think about others, that everyone has the same or worse than me. So maybe I am a little bit less productive, but I wake up every day, and do what I can.
Actually, for me it's turning out to be the opposite. Since I got used to working from home I feel like this is the perfect work environment for me. And I do not have a dedicated room for it. I work usually in my sleeping room. I have no children though.
I love how I can enforce no distractions by putting on my ANCs. No obnoxious colleagues who pathologically crave attention. No forcing of smiles and laughter when somebody tells a joke that isn't funny but obviously a subtle attempt to gauge power dynamics. I just put a smily in the chat if I feel like it and that's it. Every now and then I do 10 minutes of breathing exercises. I can talk while thinking - which is an important tool I never could use since university.
After work I switch to my personal laptop and just ignore my work phone. Done.
I can say with certainty I have never feeled so productive and relaxed at work.
I love how I can enforce no distractions by putting on my ANCs. No obnoxious colleagues who pathologically crave attention. No forcing of smiles and laughter when somebody tells a joke that isn't funny but obviously a subtle attempt to gauge power dynamics. I just put a smily in the chat if I feel like it and that's it. Every now and then I do 10 minutes of breathing exercises. I can talk while thinking - which is an important tool I never could use since university.
After work I switch to my personal laptop and just ignore my work phone. Done.
I can say with certainty I have never feeled so productive and relaxed at work.
I don't know if I'm impervious to burnout, or I'm just constantly in a state of depression and this is my "normal", but I don't suffer from the same issues as most who WFH.
I work where I play. My work computer is my gaming laptop (separate partitions). I use the same desk/streaming station. Sometimes I work from bed. And I never feel the urge to "work just one more hour".
I've never had an issue flipping between work and play mode, and I've never struggled to compartmentalize the two fully and switch context when 5PM hits.
As for going out, sure, I miss it. But I'm also a bit of a homebody, so I'm not missing TOO much. My VR headset has helped me feel safe in being able to explore our world and other worlds. As for isolation, I typically have a Twitch stream open for background.
I work where I play. My work computer is my gaming laptop (separate partitions). I use the same desk/streaming station. Sometimes I work from bed. And I never feel the urge to "work just one more hour".
I've never had an issue flipping between work and play mode, and I've never struggled to compartmentalize the two fully and switch context when 5PM hits.
As for going out, sure, I miss it. But I'm also a bit of a homebody, so I'm not missing TOO much. My VR headset has helped me feel safe in being able to explore our world and other worlds. As for isolation, I typically have a Twitch stream open for background.
Twitch stream in the background sounds... like a nightmare to me. I'm only commenting to ask you -- do you think this is long term healthy? Do you think this is something you'd like to continue long term?
The way you worded it: "As for isolation..." Do you think a Twitch stream... makes you... un-isolated?
The way you worded it: "As for isolation..." Do you think a Twitch stream... makes you... un-isolated?
A lot of twitch viewers just like it for background noise where occasionally something interesting happens and they can have an exchange with the streamer or community before going back to what they were doing. It's a lot like being in the office in that way, only much easier to duck out of and avoid random conversations.
I'm burnt out too. I've just set up a habit tracker for to keep me motivated.
I'm focusing on food, sleep, and exercise to get me through this.
If you're feeling down, look into what kind of food you're eating. I've cut down sugar just to avoid the highs and the lows.
I'm focusing on food, sleep, and exercise to get me through this.
If you're feeling down, look into what kind of food you're eating. I've cut down sugar just to avoid the highs and the lows.
Not from work from home. My mother in law is in late stages cancer and we are not sure if she will make it more than a few weeks. The stress of not being sure if it is safe to fly out for one last visit has really added to our stress.
The kids need to go back to school as well.
The kids need to go back to school as well.
I'm sorry to hear that. Is there any way to ask if she'd like you to fly out (assuming that is practical/allowed. In the UK everything is locked down)
This isn't about my mother-in-law. She will be gone either way, so at most it hurts here for a couple months. This is about my family looking at our last chance for memories. We are sad for us because we did enjoy spending time with her. We are sad for the grandkids that will never remember their grandma. In a couple months there will be no long phone calls. Already she will never again send us home grown pecans (too painful to get out and process them so they are selling this years crop to generic processors). Those are but a few of the things we are going to miss.
Note, the above is not a unique case to me, if it was I wouldn't say anything as my grief is a private matter. The details are different, but stories like the above happen every day. COVID just made this case slightly worse because it isn't safe to make the final visits.
Note, the above is not a unique case to me, if it was I wouldn't say anything as my grief is a private matter. The details are different, but stories like the above happen every day. COVID just made this case slightly worse because it isn't safe to make the final visits.
Long ago when I was in College I ate poorly, stayed indoors, and didn't exercise but played plenty of games, watched tons of shows.
In 2019 I had completed a 100 Mile hike through the alps, regularly worked out, and enjoyed a modestly active social life with my spouse.
In 2020 I ended up buying a game console and playing a bunch of games, gained 20 pounds, and had a baby.
Overall I'd say 2020 felt like when I was in college in terms of my physical and emotional health (aka worse than 2019). However I would give credit to the pandemic for simplifying parts of having children. My wife and I are both able to dedicate many hours per day to our baby and avoided the headache of having to host extended family during a stressful period.
In 2019 I had completed a 100 Mile hike through the alps, regularly worked out, and enjoyed a modestly active social life with my spouse.
In 2020 I ended up buying a game console and playing a bunch of games, gained 20 pounds, and had a baby.
Overall I'd say 2020 felt like when I was in college in terms of my physical and emotional health (aka worse than 2019). However I would give credit to the pandemic for simplifying parts of having children. My wife and I are both able to dedicate many hours per day to our baby and avoided the headache of having to host extended family during a stressful period.
I'm an extrovert. I love every second of lockdown and WFH. It's great - didn't get a cold once last year, felt great every day without a commute. So many wasted hours reclaimed. Sure, I do productive things while commuting, but there's a big difference between having those hours back fully. and making unproductive hours productive.
Best thing that ever happened in regards to work conditions. My only gripe is that so many people fail to understand that "working at home" is different to "working remotely". I wish people were more willing to jump into a meeting for a 15 minute brainstorming session rather than spend 5 hours working out a problem on Slack.
Best thing that ever happened in regards to work conditions. My only gripe is that so many people fail to understand that "working at home" is different to "working remotely". I wish people were more willing to jump into a meeting for a 15 minute brainstorming session rather than spend 5 hours working out a problem on Slack.
The opposite, I love WFH and as an introvert i'm revelling in lockdown. I miss having a dinner with some friends maybe once a month or once every two months but we keep up through various Whatsapp groups and for the most part i'm happy with it
I feel lucky that I haven’t been crammed into a small apartment with roommates or whatever. It’s so much easier to have a routine without having to bump into a bunch of other people. I don’t know if I could have survived without my outdoor spaces though... there’s nothing like being able to sit outside and work on my laptop for long hours. Really sorry for everyone else who has been locked indoors. Two months would have been rough, but this is beyond intolerable. At least we will always have the upper hand whenever our grandchildren complain about being bored or cooped up: “Let me tell you something about being stuck inside!”
No, not at all. I'm more productive at work than ever before, the whole team is. We love working from home, a few of us have already decided to never set foot in an office again. I'm leaning that way too, if I'm honest.
Working from home can be bad if the company you're at is not well set up for it. My work switched from everyone being in the office to fully remote as a result of COVID, and I've never met my coworkers. They're all pretty webcam-shy, they don't want to have social calls, it's very awkward. I think if we met in person a couple times it would break down some barriers but as it is I'm basically alone working on a one-man project with minimal communication. Most days it feels like if I just quit nobody would notice, and the work itself is not very interesting, so it's hard to stay motivated.
Quite. There are unconscious social dynamics that take place in the office that I rely on to stay on track and productive. Because we're not fully aware of these interactions when they happen, it's next to impossible to deliberately schedule them in a remote work environment.
I am a person who wants to focus, and I've realized that I rely on work related background noise like conversations and other people's whiteboard sessions to pierce my cone of silence so I can come up for air and see which way the wind is blowing. Basically, I find myself working on the wrong thing more often now, and I'm quite sick of it!
I am a person who wants to focus, and I've realized that I rely on work related background noise like conversations and other people's whiteboard sessions to pierce my cone of silence so I can come up for air and see which way the wind is blowing. Basically, I find myself working on the wrong thing more often now, and I'm quite sick of it!
I was.
Then i turned off my work station and went somewhere with really shitty cell phone service for two weeks with my family and a bicycle.
Then I wasn’t.
Then i turned off my work station and went somewhere with really shitty cell phone service for two weeks with my family and a bicycle.
Then I wasn’t.
You're definitely not alone.
The sudden switch to WFH, combined with lockdowns etc, caused me to experience pretty severe stress/anxiety issues for the first time. I severely underestimated how vital seeing others every day was for my mental health (I live alone).
I didn't recognise what the symptoms were, because I've always been positive, optimistic and productive, and certainly never had any mental health challenges.
The last 5-6 months have been deeply unproductive as a result. However now I know what I'm dealing with it's getting easier/better, fingers crossed.
The sudden switch to WFH, combined with lockdowns etc, caused me to experience pretty severe stress/anxiety issues for the first time. I severely underestimated how vital seeing others every day was for my mental health (I live alone).
I didn't recognise what the symptoms were, because I've always been positive, optimistic and productive, and certainly never had any mental health challenges.
The last 5-6 months have been deeply unproductive as a result. However now I know what I'm dealing with it's getting easier/better, fingers crossed.
With you on that. I think having a workplace is a benefit of having a job. The cognitive load of pretending that you are at work, without any benefits of having a OSHA/legal workplace, is a cost that gets put on the worker. Companies should, at the fucking minimum, provide a stipend if they arent going to provide a workplace. Not to mention the skills that the employee loses by working at home, getting burnt out or over-worked, and then suffer and are paid less when they change jobs.
But.... Burnout happens, since I was a child.
The only conditions I can see causing WFH burnout are:
* small children without other childcare (daycare)
* never experienced a long drive to the office before working from home
* social people who have never had children
Why WFH is great:
* I save 10+ hours per week by not driving. I am also saving tons on money from: gas, lunches, road tolls.
* Not spending a business day on the road each week dodging maniacs means I am less tired and distracted at work time.
* I can spend more time with my kids.
* My house is quiet during the day. I can focus on doing work. If there is no work assigned then work on a personal project or complete maintenance on the house.
* small children without other childcare (daycare)
* never experienced a long drive to the office before working from home
* social people who have never had children
Why WFH is great:
* I save 10+ hours per week by not driving. I am also saving tons on money from: gas, lunches, road tolls.
* Not spending a business day on the road each week dodging maniacs means I am less tired and distracted at work time.
* I can spend more time with my kids.
* My house is quiet during the day. I can focus on doing work. If there is no work assigned then work on a personal project or complete maintenance on the house.
Well I don't have kids, used to commute 3 hours per day, and still burning out. The lockdown was amazing at first, but I really am starting to feel like I'm only thinking about work 24/7, that I'm not being productive, that I can't do anything besides work, etc.
It’s not so much the working from home itself but the fact that my 2 kids are crawling over me while I’m coding, and jumping onto my video calls, since the schools are closed.
Depends on how much physical stuff you need to work.
I'm writing a custom high performance capturing/compression software for a device connected to a tiny computer. The components that gets this barebones computer working have now been a permanent clutter that have displaced where I'm supposed to work on personal hobbies.
It is also a hassle every time we are required to sign paper documents as I don't have a printer (not that I can't afford it, but normally it would be a white elephant). What should take several minutes will now take at least 15 when doing stuff with PDFs and photographs of signs.
As I live alone and am quite picky on food, this also means I have to cook more often. So more kitchen tasks while making sure vegetables are consumed fresh. Not being able to do groceries "just-in-time" has also lead to some inefficiencies.
As work-personal boundaries are blurred, I also decided to pause my work inspired side project. Partly because of discipline (it helped me make work results, so it's very tempting to work on it during "work hours") and partly because it bothers me that my workplace can claim ownership on things they could not have come up by themselves and never knew they needed. Thankfully I was able to shift my mind on another interesting side project.
I'm writing a custom high performance capturing/compression software for a device connected to a tiny computer. The components that gets this barebones computer working have now been a permanent clutter that have displaced where I'm supposed to work on personal hobbies.
It is also a hassle every time we are required to sign paper documents as I don't have a printer (not that I can't afford it, but normally it would be a white elephant). What should take several minutes will now take at least 15 when doing stuff with PDFs and photographs of signs.
As I live alone and am quite picky on food, this also means I have to cook more often. So more kitchen tasks while making sure vegetables are consumed fresh. Not being able to do groceries "just-in-time" has also lead to some inefficiencies.
As work-personal boundaries are blurred, I also decided to pause my work inspired side project. Partly because of discipline (it helped me make work results, so it's very tempting to work on it during "work hours") and partly because it bothers me that my workplace can claim ownership on things they could not have come up by themselves and never knew they needed. Thankfully I was able to shift my mind on another interesting side project.
I'm thriving under lockdown - I get to sleep in three hours later, I don't have to take my son to school each morning, I don't waste three hours on the Subway, I get to eat lunch with my wife and son every day, I can lie down if I'm not feeling well, take a nap if I'm sleepy, watch TV while I'm waiting for jobs to finish, etc. Only downside is that I can't see the sunset and I had to use all my vacation time staying home last year.
My wife has been 100% WFH since the start of the pandemic and the biggest thing I can do for her is encourage her to get out of the house. It is so easy to stay inside the house and basically never leave. Going for a walk, driving around and seeing people out and about, sitting alone in the park for a bit... things like that really help get her back into a better headspace.
FWIW, I'm forced to work in the office and I'm also feeling incredibly burnt out and unproductive.
FWIW, I'm forced to work in the office and I'm also feeling incredibly burnt out and unproductive.
I have one suggestion for WFH syndrome: Be old!!
I am in my sixties. Been a programmer since the seventies (last century!). I do personal projects, freelance projects and job projects. I love programming.
And I would be perfectly happy for quarantine to last forever, at least as far as I am concerned.
The only thing I have done to adapt is that I bought an Oculus and play Beat Saber and Pistol Whip to pretend to get exercise. It does make me out of breath, so WIN!!
I will be sad when it ends.
I am in my sixties. Been a programmer since the seventies (last century!). I do personal projects, freelance projects and job projects. I love programming.
And I would be perfectly happy for quarantine to last forever, at least as far as I am concerned.
The only thing I have done to adapt is that I bought an Oculus and play Beat Saber and Pistol Whip to pretend to get exercise. It does make me out of breath, so WIN!!
I will be sad when it ends.
After an intense period of work from november 2010 to mai 2011, I burned-out because staying at home, working all nighter, not seeing real people, having my desk twenty centimeters from bed, and everything. It was not even lockdown or curfews.
Lockdown is just yet another reason why you may burn out. Personally, I have social anxiety, so I didn't care much in the first time, but in fact, not seeing people is just awful.
Lockdown is just yet another reason why you may burn out. Personally, I have social anxiety, so I didn't care much in the first time, but in fact, not seeing people is just awful.
We're about 60% as productive as we were pre-lockdown. In our case this is largely due to the lack of face to face whiteboard discussions, being unable to have two or three people look through a bunch of code or design together, the ad-hoc conversations and face time with colleagues. It now takes far longer to thrash out thorny technical and design issues than it did in 2019.
With revenues falling last year, my company decided to slash salaries and close several roles. This obviously led to a much greater workload for everyone else, and people getting increasingly burned out.
As the exodus continues, the senior management decided to pivot towards building and selling more features to increase revenues, instead of taking a look at how to stabilize the teams and stop the blood-letting, hence more pressure on the remaining engineers to deliver features, leading to much lower quality, more bugs and more pressure.
The situation can be salvaged, though, if we are able to get real about the situation with the engineering teams, scale back our commitments and hire for some key roles where people resigned last year.
With revenues falling last year, my company decided to slash salaries and close several roles. This obviously led to a much greater workload for everyone else, and people getting increasingly burned out.
As the exodus continues, the senior management decided to pivot towards building and selling more features to increase revenues, instead of taking a look at how to stabilize the teams and stop the blood-letting, hence more pressure on the remaining engineers to deliver features, leading to much lower quality, more bugs and more pressure.
The situation can be salvaged, though, if we are able to get real about the situation with the engineering teams, scale back our commitments and hire for some key roles where people resigned last year.
"Am I alone to feel work-from-home made things worse?"
No you're definitely not. You're just part of the 50% that needs an official office with other co-workers there. And there is nothing wrong with it. Personally I am on the other 50% but I do it for over 13 years now - started freelancing from home in Dec 2007 and never looked back.
What is typically now is the wrong response all companies always had. Before whole covid situation companies wanted all boots on the ground at the office, even when 50% of the people were more productive at home. Now it's the reverse situation where the "office" style people are less productive.
The right response would be to let people that want to work from home, and are productive that way to do it, and the other ones to come to office if that's what they want. That would maximize the productivity, but until a big company would actually make this case it will not be the norm in our industry.
No you're definitely not. You're just part of the 50% that needs an official office with other co-workers there. And there is nothing wrong with it. Personally I am on the other 50% but I do it for over 13 years now - started freelancing from home in Dec 2007 and never looked back.
What is typically now is the wrong response all companies always had. Before whole covid situation companies wanted all boots on the ground at the office, even when 50% of the people were more productive at home. Now it's the reverse situation where the "office" style people are less productive.
The right response would be to let people that want to work from home, and are productive that way to do it, and the other ones to come to office if that's what they want. That would maximize the productivity, but until a big company would actually make this case it will not be the norm in our industry.
It's made things worse for our family where we have this overpacked shared common space. We just signed a lease to move into a bigger place to make things more tenable to keep up the schoolwork and office productivity with more separate spaces. We're hoping it'll pay off for us, it will at least monetarily with about $700 savings per month.
We found out the hard way too that renting a single detached house is a much more involved affair than an apartment. It's a multiday process involving a bunch of parties and things can go in limbo for like a week as applications are brought in and reviewed by the property management and the homeowner before giving the green light. We wound up signing a lease in the first week of this month for a move-in date in mid February. The property management companies have been saying that since Coronavirus lockdowns spread the demand for renting houses have really gone up.
We found out the hard way too that renting a single detached house is a much more involved affair than an apartment. It's a multiday process involving a bunch of parties and things can go in limbo for like a week as applications are brought in and reviewed by the property management and the homeowner before giving the green light. We wound up signing a lease in the first week of this month for a move-in date in mid February. The property management companies have been saying that since Coronavirus lockdowns spread the demand for renting houses have really gone up.
On the contrary, I'm thriving. I don't think I would've made it through another year of in-office work in a city I don't have connection to. Meanwhile, thanks to pandemics, I'm back to my home town, where I have friends and family, I don't have to go to the office and spend time with people I'm at best indifferent to, I don't have to prepare clothes, worry about how I look etc., I can work in better conditions and thus am less tired at the end of the day. Frankly it's amazing! I can see myself continuing in this career for some more time, while previously I was close to ready to just dropping it altogether.
Oh and BTW I'm not from US, so the political situation in your country doesn't affect me (at least not directly). Although I do believe that the mess that US is in is small potatoes compared to the ecological disaster that is unfolding as we speak...
Oh and BTW I'm not from US, so the political situation in your country doesn't affect me (at least not directly). Although I do believe that the mess that US is in is small potatoes compared to the ecological disaster that is unfolding as we speak...
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Nope, for one thing, the country I live in never implemented anything resembling strict lockdown measures (there were some restrictions on opening hours for businesses, types of businesses that could open and car traffic in city centers) and for another thing, at all times, even during the time least welcoming to going out, I made sure to simply go for solitary walks in parks, streets and public areas while avoiding any crowds. I know that in some countries (disgracefully in my view) even leaving home for a solitary walk or with family you live with anyhow was forbidden, but where it isn't anyone who's been feeling more than a bit claustrophobic should sincerely just go out and get some air on a regular basis. It is possible to do this without overly exposing yourself, and it can be done in the company of any people you in any case might share your home and intimate air with.
I have moved to Salt Lake City for the winter and start (nearly) every morning with three hours of skiing at Alta. I then drive back to my apartment here in the city and long on and work "hawaii hours". My teams are super understanding.
I think they all understood that the alternative was painting the walls of my apartment with my brains.
I think they all understood that the alternative was painting the walls of my apartment with my brains.
I have almost the opposite problem - without a bus to keep me scheduled, it's very easy for me to accidentally overcommit and do too much work one day and end up mentally exhausted for the evening. I have tried things like timers but the need to constantly set them just means I forget and stop after 1 or 2 rounds.
The commute was the most exhausting part of my job mentally. I find that I am mentally fresh even after working long into the evening just because I don't have the dread of making the arduous commute.
I'd gladly work longer hours if it meant permanent WFH. Employer gets more efficient worked hours from me, I don't have to waste 2-3 hours/day on a stupid bus/subway commute. My employer is traditional conservative enough (bank) that permanent or majority WFH is a nonstarter though.
Reducing the commute is not possible without paying significantly more for housing (and probably still resulting in a smaller and crappier place).
I'd gladly work longer hours if it meant permanent WFH. Employer gets more efficient worked hours from me, I don't have to waste 2-3 hours/day on a stupid bus/subway commute. My employer is traditional conservative enough (bank) that permanent or majority WFH is a nonstarter though.
Reducing the commute is not possible without paying significantly more for housing (and probably still resulting in a smaller and crappier place).
My commute was only about 20 minutes, so it was actually kind of a pleasant transition between each part of my day. I'd just use it to read and meditate. My previous one though was one of those 1-2 hour commutes by car that was just a complete nightmare. I can't imagine that is sustainable. It certainly wasn't for me.
1-2 hours by car would actually be preferable to my 2-3 hours by transit, but still bad.
A 20 minute drive to work would be awesome. One of my best friends traded in a commute similar to mine (NYC) for a 15 minute drive (SV) and is immeasurable happier for it.
A 20 minute drive to work would be awesome. One of my best friends traded in a commute similar to mine (NYC) for a 15 minute drive (SV) and is immeasurable happier for it.
I'm a WFH veteran, 2 years at the current gig before quarantine and 4+ before the current gig.
Work is going even better as a WFH person now that I don't go out or have to take my kids anywhere.
My mood, appetite, sleep schedule, relationships, general zeal are mostly flatlined. It's a total loss. Reconstruction will be interesting.
Work is going even better as a WFH person now that I don't go out or have to take my kids anywhere.
My mood, appetite, sleep schedule, relationships, general zeal are mostly flatlined. It's a total loss. Reconstruction will be interesting.
You're definitely not alone. For myself, the physical separation between the workplace and home helped put me in work mode; without that cue, it's much harder to stay on task. And while it would be nice to have a separate home office to replace that cue, I don't have the space for it.
No, it's not just you. Our circle of friends, colleagues, etc have shrunk this past year and there's been little new to refill and recharge them. Most of the chance encounters (serendipity) that make life better are gone right now and it's impacting work, family, dating, and everything else.
I wrote on it here this past October: https://caseysoftware.com/blog/the-uncounted-casualty-of-202...
My advice: Introduce some variety. Go outside for a walk. Talk (not text) with friends more often. Reconnect with people you haven't seen in a while. Read books and watch movies outside your normal preferences. Turn off the technology for 30 or 60 minutes and meditate. STOP watching the news.
I wrote on it here this past October: https://caseysoftware.com/blog/the-uncounted-casualty-of-202...
My advice: Introduce some variety. Go outside for a walk. Talk (not text) with friends more often. Reconnect with people you haven't seen in a while. Read books and watch movies outside your normal preferences. Turn off the technology for 30 or 60 minutes and meditate. STOP watching the news.
I got so burnt out between March and September that I resigned from my then job and I’m still struggling with lingering burnout enough that I still have not been able to begin looking for a new job. Unfortunately I’m eating into savings enough that I really need to start looking soon, even though I don’t feel entirely ready.
For me I don’t think it’s necessarily that WFH was the primary factor. I’ve worked remote most of my career. But I do think everyone being remote had a big impact, as it made communication more challenging for team members and management who don’t usually prefer remote. This heightened stress for all involved, and drove increased pressure to overwork.
That said, a few months off has definitely helped. If you can afford to take some time off, I highly recommend it.
For me I don’t think it’s necessarily that WFH was the primary factor. I’ve worked remote most of my career. But I do think everyone being remote had a big impact, as it made communication more challenging for team members and management who don’t usually prefer remote. This heightened stress for all involved, and drove increased pressure to overwork.
That said, a few months off has definitely helped. If you can afford to take some time off, I highly recommend it.
My story is similar. I also felt the burn out between March and September and decided to leave at the beginning of September. I felt like the work I do is boring, everyday standup meetings are annoying as well as planning, grooming meetings and all this things. After I left the company, I could not do anything productive for a few months, but now I am more productive. I am working on my pet projects, taking some time for walking and cooking, reading books, preparing for the interviews. Taking a few months off helped me at least feel much better.
Absolutely. I mean I love getting a good wfh job but in my plans I could leave the home part now and then haha
I've had two mental state crashes so far where I just end up completely cba getting out of bed levels of burned out for a week. It doesn't help I'm at a pretty small agency that feels it if I take surprise time off, so I feel guilty about that on top of it all haha -- incidentally I have had a chat with my doctor and we adjusted a few things. The citalopram has taken the edge off for now!
How're you doing mate? Sincerely hope you're able to get something from the comments as I'm about to try now! :)
e: just realised you're using a throwaway. Fuck it must be hard for you lot over in the US, at-will and medical bills etc. Best of luck all, truly.
I've had two mental state crashes so far where I just end up completely cba getting out of bed levels of burned out for a week. It doesn't help I'm at a pretty small agency that feels it if I take surprise time off, so I feel guilty about that on top of it all haha -- incidentally I have had a chat with my doctor and we adjusted a few things. The citalopram has taken the edge off for now!
How're you doing mate? Sincerely hope you're able to get something from the comments as I'm about to try now! :)
e: just realised you're using a throwaway. Fuck it must be hard for you lot over in the US, at-will and medical bills etc. Best of luck all, truly.
Looking around at other replies it seems that pretty consistently the folks that are taking this the worst are the ones who live in small urban apartments, and the ones who are getting by better are those who chose to live far out in the burbs or rural areas with bigger homes and a dedicated office space. Im in the second group and am taking it pretty well—I certainly don’t miss my 4+ hour per day commute, and I am dreading going back to having to be in the office. But I can also see how this is pretty much prison for people who decided to live in the city.
I never thought I’d like remote work or could be productive that way, but now I’m convinced. But I definitely need the private space to do it. I could never do this from a 400 sqft apartment.
I never thought I’d like remote work or could be productive that way, but now I’m convinced. But I definitely need the private space to do it. I could never do this from a 400 sqft apartment.
Absolutely. I'm so pissed off at how long the work week is that I'm building a website listing jobs with a 4 day work week:
https://www.28hrworkweek.com/
https://www.28hrworkweek.com/
Wait you only work 7 hours per day?
From reading other HN discussions, I get the impression that a person's home-office setup is a big factor. I.e., good home office --> probably same or better productivity; bad home office --> probably worse productivity.
I’m burnt out, but it’s more from the chaos than anything else. Unfortunately work is adding to the chaos due a decision to pull forward massive company changing plans by 3 years, meaning that we have to prepare to change everything during all of this externally generated chaos.
I’d probably have fallen apart if I still worked at an office. WFH has given me the ability to give up when I’m completely fried, or go and do other things to de stress rather than just break down at my desk. In an office I’d feel the pressure to stay at my desk and fake working, which would’ve probably been much too much for me.
I’d probably have fallen apart if I still worked at an office. WFH has given me the ability to give up when I’m completely fried, or go and do other things to de stress rather than just break down at my desk. In an office I’d feel the pressure to stay at my desk and fake working, which would’ve probably been much too much for me.
I deal with burnout watching videos from george Carlin on germs and virus... 10y old what a wise man
https://youtu.be/X29lF43mUlo
I was just chatting to a very smart, ambitious and hard working friend (startup founder) who had a nervous breakdown because his routine got complete destroyed by the persistent lockdown. You are definitely not alone.
Yes pretty burnt out. Main reason is having a spouse who is burnt out / depressed and a toddler with no childcare in a small appartment. Luckily I have a team and employer who understand and we make it work.
The lockdowns are causing a huge mental health crisis. You are far from alone.
Nope, love it, sorry. But ... I'm doing research and a full-time student. Essentially I'm like a grad student + 50% Dad. If I were working one of my old dev jobs, I'd probably hate the lack of work/life separation. Also synchronous schooling for the kids is much easier on me than the old asynchronous schooling. They just disappear into their room and pop out for recess and lunch, instead of me having to cut/paste/spend hours with them on BS make work.
EDIT> Kids are 7 and 12. If they were pre-schoolers ... shudder ... it's hell.
EDIT> Kids are 7 and 12. If they were pre-schoolers ... shudder ... it's hell.
Yes. I took up running. Seems to have fixed it for me.
Also make sure there is clean separation between work and home. Different hardware, different location even if it's the other side of the same room.
Also make sure there is clean separation between work and home. Different hardware, different location even if it's the other side of the same room.
I've worked from home for the past 5 years, so no, it hasn't made anything worse. I hate commuting, sitting in traffic for 2 hours a day doesn't improve your life.
I’m the opposite. I get much more done at home. I love having all this time with my family, access to my kitchen, and walking my dog. The lockdown has been great for me.
I had the opposite reaction. I realized I was doing better mentally under COVID and this has caused me to re-evaluate some things about my life. I found it disturbing that a condition considered nightmarish by many was actually a boon for me. By that I don't mean to say that I have an insatiable need to conform to other people's lives but rather that I might have taken up some long-term unhealthy habits over the years.
I've been able to focus more on programing, even secured a big raise.
Been saving tons of money as well. My game is coming along nicely.
The only downside is I sorta broke it off with a girl right before this all started. Being single now is a bummer, but tons of people are in not so great relationships that they can't get out of right now.
As far as I'm concerned I've been exceptionally lucky. Something like 1/4 households with children are food insecure.
Been saving tons of money as well. My game is coming along nicely.
The only downside is I sorta broke it off with a girl right before this all started. Being single now is a bummer, but tons of people are in not so great relationships that they can't get out of right now.
As far as I'm concerned I've been exceptionally lucky. Something like 1/4 households with children are food insecure.
For me, it is that all the problematic elements of office work have returned to remote work.
We started not endlessly being in meetings as meetings were a pain over Zoom/Teams. Now that we are used to that, the meetings are back.
We started out overcommunicating as we were afraid things would be lost in WFH. We have stopped that so now there is lots of getting out of sync again as we are no longer conscious of making sure everyone gets the message.
We started not endlessly being in meetings as meetings were a pain over Zoom/Teams. Now that we are used to that, the meetings are back.
We started out overcommunicating as we were afraid things would be lost in WFH. We have stopped that so now there is lots of getting out of sync again as we are no longer conscious of making sure everyone gets the message.
I am 35, married with no kids... and I am having the time of my life!
For the first time ever I am actually sleeping 8h a night...
9am: waking up
9h15: breakfast
9h30: working from home (as a software engineer)
12h30: lunch break of an hour
17h30: end of working day... video game time
20h: dinner with wife
20h30: Netflix and chill
Never been so happy, relaxed and being able do spend quality time with my significant other!
Never been so happy, relaxed and being able do spend quality time with my significant other!
Yes, and I am so glad my company is not going full-WFH. Can’t wait to get back into the office and actually get things done.
So tired of getting blocked for days waiting on someone to do something. Having to sit through endless calls and meetings to talk about stuff, not being able to show someone how to do something in person. I’m sure just plugging away at tickets is great for some people but it’s not for me.
So tired of getting blocked for days waiting on someone to do something. Having to sit through endless calls and meetings to talk about stuff, not being able to show someone how to do something in person. I’m sure just plugging away at tickets is great for some people but it’s not for me.
Still fine, but it has triggered some unpleasant introspection.
The whole omg I'm so old and behind my peers with acquiring white picket fence type thing.
The whole omg I'm so old and behind my peers with acquiring white picket fence type thing.
Not sure work from home made things worse. I do believe it would be way better if we could go outside for social interaction of any kind.
I do like working from home, but the lockdown is harsh.
A while ago I coded https://quarantinenotes.com I would love to have your thoughts written down on the board.
A while ago I coded https://quarantinenotes.com I would love to have your thoughts written down on the board.
I'm gonna be in the minority here and I feel a bit guilty...
but the last year was really good for me. Remote work became more accepted (I've been WFH for 20 years), which opened up stuff outside of SV to me. I got a new job with great people, better pay and cool tech. And I've had more time for hobbies.
I know I'm lucky, but I really can't complain...
but the last year was really good for me. Remote work became more accepted (I've been WFH for 20 years), which opened up stuff outside of SV to me. I got a new job with great people, better pay and cool tech. And I've had more time for hobbies.
I know I'm lucky, but I really can't complain...
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I miss climbing, going out, meeting new people. That for me is what's weighing on my psyche much more than anything else.
I think for me WFH is not that different from normal since half of my team isn't in the same country anyway and our meetings were always in Skype. Actually I eat better, since I the canteen isn't my only option at home.
I think for me WFH is not that different from normal since half of my team isn't in the same country anyway and our meetings were always in Skype. Actually I eat better, since I the canteen isn't my only option at home.
I'm not burnt out... but I'm ready to return to normal.
I had a super long commute... I now have no commute but no "contact" (face to face).
I'd personally love 3 days from home, 2 in the office.
I'd say I'm as productive... some times more, sometimes less. But the lack of face to face cooler chats, white board meetings, etc are sorely missed.
I had a super long commute... I now have no commute but no "contact" (face to face).
I'd personally love 3 days from home, 2 in the office.
I'd say I'm as productive... some times more, sometimes less. But the lack of face to face cooler chats, white board meetings, etc are sorely missed.
I was able to maintain about the same productivity for maybe 6 months, then it started deteriorating from there. At 8 months, started to feel like i couldn't take it anymore, and had to take a vacation. Now at 10 months, have been able to stabilize into a new normal, but it's not as productive as I was before.
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I'm feeling pretty good these days. My FTTH ISP has finally had a couple of solidly profitable months in November and December after going through a death march of a project last summer / fall. It's amazing what happens when the stress of being so close yet so far from breakeven is finally relieved.
Yes. So much so. It's gotten worse ever since they closed outside dining in LA, I didn't know how much a weekly night out at a restaurant was doing to keep me sane. I'm even lucky that I have a fiance and dog living with me to keep me company but even then it's become challenging.
I feel exactly the same. I'm literally at a point where I feel like I just don't even know how to do my job anymore. I've done all the bullshit people here are suggesting, it doesn't work for some people, including me. This situation is horrible and you're not alone.
I spent more than 3 months on the lockdown. Working from home as a full time employee and also I was able to make a lot of progress on my side project. It really increased my productive since I don't waste 2 hours a day on commute and no distractions at all. So that's a good part.
No it is really common
I love that I have a lot more connection with the community around me (mostly of dog-walkers, but some just-walkers as well). In terms of work everything is mostly the same, except that I feel a lot more free and therefore better.
From what I hear of my colleagues, you're definitely not alone.
From what I hear of my colleagues, you're definitely not alone.
I don’t mind working from home and have been doing it predominantly for the last few years.
What I’m finding hard is the lack of social life due to lockdowns and social distancing and not being able to travel (most of my friends aren’t close enough to meet up with in the park or whatever)
What I’m finding hard is the lack of social life due to lockdowns and social distancing and not being able to travel (most of my friends aren’t close enough to meet up with in the park or whatever)
Yes im the same
I seem to have developed ADHD
Its really hard to focus on something for a long time.
At the risk of being labeled a dangerous radical... you know you can go outside, have get-togethers, and live a normal life (realizing that any number of accidents or illnesses could bring it to an abrupt end), right? That’s what we’ve been doing, and it helps a ton.
I've been thriving in fact. The thing is, if you aren't happy with your job, working from home will be even worse, since you're isolated and can't cloud the fact that you're unhappy by messing around with your colleagues;
Yes. I was able to convince my full-time employer to switch to contract. If you work in the right company (size, team, projects, etc), maybe you can create enough leverage where you are valuable enough to convince them to keep you on as contract.
It's like going to college from high school. You need to learn how to manage your time and space better.
Make a timeslot and schedule for things that used to be automatic, like going outside for a quick walk and exercising and starting and ending your day.
Make a timeslot and schedule for things that used to be automatic, like going outside for a quick walk and exercising and starting and ending your day.
Go to bed early. Upon waking near sunrise, take a small microdose. Then follow with lemon water, and a small amount of coffee or tea. Go for a run, bike, or walk as the day is starting. Follow with meditation and a cold shower.
You will feel amazing from this.
You will feel amazing from this.
I think I’m just bored. Everything feels stagnant. How would I know the difference?
WFH made me and my coworkers work later since it bleeds easily into daily life. It feels harder to setup boundaries. I took a vacation to get work done. I needed to get out of meetings and not have to check slack so much.
Is there anyone who isn't burnt out due to extended lockdown etc.?
I like working from home but I don't like living at the office.
Be that as it may, it's still much more productive than any time spent in an infernal open plan office.
I like working from home but I don't like living at the office.
Be that as it may, it's still much more productive than any time spent in an infernal open plan office.
I love working from home, but the pandemic has amplified the parts of my job I am frustrated with. I have never been closer to wanting to leave than now. I would still want to work remotely, but with more of a purpose.
My productivity went up by a lot once I got a remote office. I like commuting and having a place away from home to focus; the remote office provides both of those things.
We’ve also road-tripped to change locations and spice things up.
We’ve also road-tripped to change locations and spice things up.
Rather the opposite. But having lived in Northern Canada where being confined to the house for months on end during the winter is normal has helped to prepare for this, compared to that this is fairly easy.
I find my work life to be mostly better, but feel stress from the social isolation and, especially, the political upheaval and US public health disaster. That, and worrying about loved ones who can’t wfh.
The worst part is the continuous news cycle feeding both the public and politicians with fear and the politicians implementing ever more draconian rules with less and less effect.
And all the excuses. Oh they took this freedom away. Well I don’t mind, because it doesn’t affect me. Or just do this for a little while. Just go without it for a few weeks. Months. Half a year. Rules with barely any effect, implemented on the flimsiest of pretexts that seem to have no end in sight. Statistical half truths to sell the rules.
And the solution, vaccination? Delay after delay and every day there’s a new dramatic story about how 1 guy got an allergic reaction, or how someone really isn’t all that sure it’ll help against the scary new mutations.
It is incredibly frustrating yet I want to keep track of the news at least for a bit so I can do whatever little I can to change it.
At least the finger pointing has gone away a bit. In this thread I only saw a few of the ‘if only other people had kept to the rules’ blame game comments.
And all the excuses. Oh they took this freedom away. Well I don’t mind, because it doesn’t affect me. Or just do this for a little while. Just go without it for a few weeks. Months. Half a year. Rules with barely any effect, implemented on the flimsiest of pretexts that seem to have no end in sight. Statistical half truths to sell the rules.
And the solution, vaccination? Delay after delay and every day there’s a new dramatic story about how 1 guy got an allergic reaction, or how someone really isn’t all that sure it’ll help against the scary new mutations.
It is incredibly frustrating yet I want to keep track of the news at least for a bit so I can do whatever little I can to change it.
At least the finger pointing has gone away a bit. In this thread I only saw a few of the ‘if only other people had kept to the rules’ blame game comments.
I love working from home. The thing that drags me down is not seeing friends, not going to the gym, but working from home has been an improvement. No more wasted time commuting, more time for myself!
Best time of my life. Higher productivity. No time to travel to work. Eat food I prepare. Jogging in middle of day. Much more time with kids. Working non stop otherwise it's fun.
It definitely has had that effect for some, and I think that the promise of vaccines is probably exacerbating things since there's now the feeling of "I _could_ be out of this if only…".
What's helped me to stay in a positive space and productive during lockdown:
1. Daily exercise. I never worked out with weights before covid, but I bought a kettlebell and the book Simple & Sinister and started doing that routine along with cardio. Makes a huge difference.
2. Any kind of mindfulness. I've read a bunch of books on happiness during lockdown. Most all of them say the same things and suggest the same sorts of mindful practices, so I chose to do some practices based on stoicism and cognitive behavioral therapy. (Recommended reading: Why Buddhism is True, Everything is F*cked [starts good, gets bad], How to be a Stoic, A Handbook for New Stoics, Full Catastrophe Living. Choose any/all and see what you like.)
3. Not reading the news or doom scrolling. I get a covid newsletter each day (https://paulbart.substack.com) and don't read any other covid news. I also got off social media and don't read much about politics/the general shitshow. Basically, things that are beyond my control I pay limited attention to. When I violated this, obsessively seeking out streams & tweets from the storming of the capitol, I wound up having to take the next day off because I was so out of sorts.
4. Connecting directly with friends. I deleted my social media accts this year and started reaching out to old friends directly. First with a bulk email then zooms/phone calls with folks who wrote back. It's been great to reconnect and everyone is happy to chat!
5. Putting strict limits on work. I don't touch it outside of what I've determined to be "work hours". Period.
Good luck. Things can get better.
What's helped me to stay in a positive space and productive during lockdown:
1. Daily exercise. I never worked out with weights before covid, but I bought a kettlebell and the book Simple & Sinister and started doing that routine along with cardio. Makes a huge difference.
2. Any kind of mindfulness. I've read a bunch of books on happiness during lockdown. Most all of them say the same things and suggest the same sorts of mindful practices, so I chose to do some practices based on stoicism and cognitive behavioral therapy. (Recommended reading: Why Buddhism is True, Everything is F*cked [starts good, gets bad], How to be a Stoic, A Handbook for New Stoics, Full Catastrophe Living. Choose any/all and see what you like.)
3. Not reading the news or doom scrolling. I get a covid newsletter each day (https://paulbart.substack.com) and don't read any other covid news. I also got off social media and don't read much about politics/the general shitshow. Basically, things that are beyond my control I pay limited attention to. When I violated this, obsessively seeking out streams & tweets from the storming of the capitol, I wound up having to take the next day off because I was so out of sorts.
4. Connecting directly with friends. I deleted my social media accts this year and started reaching out to old friends directly. First with a bulk email then zooms/phone calls with folks who wrote back. It's been great to reconnect and everyone is happy to chat!
5. Putting strict limits on work. I don't touch it outside of what I've determined to be "work hours". Period.
Good luck. Things can get better.
I'm less burnt out because I don't have a three fucking hour commute. Stop trying to get me back into an office that I absolutely do not ever need to step foot into again.
It really depends on your environment- are you way more distracted? Do you set clear goals for yourself day to day?
It’ll be helpful if we state our environment and expectations towards WFH.
It’ll be helpful if we state our environment and expectations towards WFH.
No.
I work from home since 2014.
The only work related change is that I got more customers since the pandemic hit. I'm a technical writer and developer relations advocate, so this isn't surprising.
I work from home since 2014.
The only work related change is that I got more customers since the pandemic hit. I'm a technical writer and developer relations advocate, so this isn't surprising.
I have a question about technical writing and the course you took, would it be OK to email you?
I’m loving my work environment, but the nature of what I do is such that it has been a constant emergency since March 13, 2020.
Rewarding work, great team, but a break would be nice. Alas.
Rewarding work, great team, but a break would be nice. Alas.
Move to Vietnam, China, Singapore or Taiwan. No more lockdowns.
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Yep, had 3 weeks off over Christmas - came back and decided to quit my job. Nothing's easing up.
Now I gotta wait until actually have a new job lined up so I can really quit.
Already told my boss.
Not American.
Now I gotta wait until actually have a new job lined up so I can really quit.
Already told my boss.
Not American.
I was very productive from home for about 3 months. Now I’m really burned out on the whole thing. I find myself wanting to go to the office every 3 days or so.
I been way more productive than I ever was in the office.
It’s a downer or maybe withdrawl symptoms (not working from office.) Related, wish I could have nail down the 20% stuff at work that got me the 80% high.
I've been working remote from home for almost a decade, and I've never felt this demotivated.
There could be a personal factor, but the lockdown is not helping.
There could be a personal factor, but the lockdown is not helping.
This is normal, I think. I know many people who feel this way. I have been focusing on other things like exercise, stock trading, and side projects.
As an introvert, I wasn't as much bothered by lockdown but friends and family complaining about it was more draining than lockdown itself.
I have severe agoraphobia, but I still have empathy, so it still sucks. This should be my time to shine but my friends are sad.
work from home is not a problem, even before pandemic many of us had remote jobs and it was great (at least for me). the real issue here is after pandemic we lost every joy we had like seeing family and friends, going restaurant and cafes, doing sports together and etc. trust me you fix your bunt out even if you work from office.
Quite the opposite. I can work about 10x more and better than before. No interruptions, better good, cheaper, more time
If the first lockdowns worked why are we having more? If the first lockdowns didn't work why are we having more?
Because the first lockdowns in many places were half-assed?
We did lockdown properly in NZ, and now, we're basically back to normal (with the exception of international travel).
And no, it isn't because we're a small island (though that helped). South Korea and Vietnam are also success stories.
We did lockdown properly in NZ, and now, we're basically back to normal (with the exception of international travel).
And no, it isn't because we're a small island (though that helped). South Korea and Vietnam are also success stories.
No it's been a total fucking nightmare. Take care of yourselves out there! Meditation helps me keep my lid on.
Yes, but not because of working from home. I was already doing that. Rather, my workload has ballooned.
Lockdown why?
Vote with your feet and move. Dakotas and Florida are open. I wore a mask while snorkeling and saw a shark!
Vote with your feet and move. Dakotas and Florida are open. I wore a mask while snorkeling and saw a shark!
Mostly because my kids are home too.
Come work at Notemeal. We have an office with a private gym in Boston and can get tested for COVID once per week as a perk. https://notemeal.io jokes aside (kind of), we were remote for the first year, and it wears on you pretty fast to eat, sleep and work in the same room.
Basically, just wanted to say there are _lots_ of other people who feel the same way.
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Yes to the point where I was let go. Crazy times we live in. Crazy times.
Yes. My productivity started out somewhat lower, but by now is much lower. Moreover, most of the time I just don't care about things that I used to care about. I'll realize, "this is something I would argue that we should do in a different, better way in the office," but will rarely put in the effort to do that now.
I live by myself in an apartment in a city, and while I do have a good work from home setup, it doubles as my gaming PC setup. I agree that living in the suburbs or a rural area would help, but it's not the only significant factor for me.
One is being on an established team versus a new team. The first couple months I was on the same team I'd worked with in the office, a fairly small team with good intra-team social connections. My productivity was lower, but only 20-30% lower. Then I switched companies as my previous employer was having major problems (which were unrelated to covid; the writing on the wall started to become clear in January). I've never met my team in real life, and while they seem like a team I'd enjoy working with in the office, I derive very little social satisfaction from my interactions with them. For most of the latter half of last year, the only thing keeping my productivity at about the 50% mark of 2019's levels were fairly frequent pair programming with a couple colleagues, one of whom has since left. I'd estimate my 2021 productivity levels so far to be 20% or less of my 2019 levels.
The other is non-work-related social interaction. Throughout the summer and fall I'd regularly meet up with friends at parks (and occasionally elsewhere after several months once it became apparent the containment strategy had failed), but that fell by the wayside starting around November, in part due to cold and in part due to the caseload hitting record levels at that time and being more cautious. Other than one friend who caught and recovered from the virus in March, I didn't see any friends or family for about two months. That definitely increased burnout as well. I've found that working remotely, I need at least two lengthy social interactions per week to maintain mental health, and that hasn't happened in too long.
I've already let my managers know that I plan to take a leave of absence once travel is feasible again. I've considered resigning as well, but at this point I'm not convinced having more free time would be a good thing, with so few ways to spend it. Work itself isn't the main problem, so much as the lack of social interaction, so I may well stay and keep earning some money at least until it warms up and I can spend the time on outdoor activities again.
I am thankful that the new job I started is local, so assuming I stay, eventually I'll be working from an office. There's no way I would stay at a position that was permanently remote.
I live by myself in an apartment in a city, and while I do have a good work from home setup, it doubles as my gaming PC setup. I agree that living in the suburbs or a rural area would help, but it's not the only significant factor for me.
One is being on an established team versus a new team. The first couple months I was on the same team I'd worked with in the office, a fairly small team with good intra-team social connections. My productivity was lower, but only 20-30% lower. Then I switched companies as my previous employer was having major problems (which were unrelated to covid; the writing on the wall started to become clear in January). I've never met my team in real life, and while they seem like a team I'd enjoy working with in the office, I derive very little social satisfaction from my interactions with them. For most of the latter half of last year, the only thing keeping my productivity at about the 50% mark of 2019's levels were fairly frequent pair programming with a couple colleagues, one of whom has since left. I'd estimate my 2021 productivity levels so far to be 20% or less of my 2019 levels.
The other is non-work-related social interaction. Throughout the summer and fall I'd regularly meet up with friends at parks (and occasionally elsewhere after several months once it became apparent the containment strategy had failed), but that fell by the wayside starting around November, in part due to cold and in part due to the caseload hitting record levels at that time and being more cautious. Other than one friend who caught and recovered from the virus in March, I didn't see any friends or family for about two months. That definitely increased burnout as well. I've found that working remotely, I need at least two lengthy social interactions per week to maintain mental health, and that hasn't happened in too long.
I've already let my managers know that I plan to take a leave of absence once travel is feasible again. I've considered resigning as well, but at this point I'm not convinced having more free time would be a good thing, with so few ways to spend it. Work itself isn't the main problem, so much as the lack of social interaction, so I may well stay and keep earning some money at least until it warms up and I can spend the time on outdoor activities again.
I am thankful that the new job I started is local, so assuming I stay, eventually I'll be working from an office. There's no way I would stay at a position that was permanently remote.
It's been really great for me. Meetings are 1000% better.
Mentally, yes. Physically, I've never been more rested.
I hate work from home. Worst idea ever.
productive .. for whom? is it productivity for yourself or for your current corporate employer?
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Vitamin D and Exercise sir.
You are not alone.
You are not alone
I definitely am
No, I love it.
Cabin fever.
Yes
I've worked remotely for five years before the lockdown started. That was mostly fine and I personally do feel that I was/am more productive working from home than I had been working in an office, but the lockdown has made things more difficult in a few ways.
First, I used to travel quite a bit. Conferences, visiting friends in different countries, etc. Since I can mostly work from wherever I am, it was always easy to do five or six trips a year. That obviously hasn't been happening since lockdown started. I live in kind of a grungy, uninteresting neighborhood in South London. I don't particularly like it (we're here out of convenience for my partner's job) but frequent travel really helped me be OK with it. Now, I haven't been more than two miles from my flat in the last year (we don't have a car and going any further would require getting on a train or bus or plane and I don't consider that to be a reasonable thing to do if it's not for an "essential" purpose; the only times I've gone anywhere further than walking distance have been for legally required immigration appointments). I used to occasionally even go and work in a cafe or pub for a few hours, or just hang out for a change of scenery and of course I can't do that either. So I'm really unhappy with my location now and really tired of seeing the same thing every day.
Second, my partner is a university lecturer. Normally, I'd work from home and she'd go to her office on campus. When they moved her classes online and she started working from home, we were in each others' way all the time. She had to pretty much turn our living room and kitchen area into a TV studio with lights, multiple cameras and a green screen setup. If she's having a class, I have to avoid passing through that space, making any noise, or using too much internet bandwidth (no pushing big docker images...) Meanwhile, I'm used to having quiet space to myself to code and that's hard to do when someone is giving a loud lecture right to you. Plus, since it's a lot more work and stress for her and no additional pay, she's been unhappy and when she's not happy, neither am I.
To make things worse, the UK has also been dealing with Brexit and over the last year a significant number of our friends, who happened to be European, left the country. So we were already feeling more isolated and down than usual before lockdown even started since most of our social network disappeared on us.
Still, I try to focus on how good we have it. Both of us are still employed, both in jobs that we can do from home. Our neighborhood is crappy, but our flat is pretty nice even if it's not huge. We live on a loud, busy, polluted street, but we do have a small deck so we could at least sit outside sometimes when the weather was nice (this is the UK though, so that's like three days a year). I remember living in apartments in NYC that were basically big enough for a twin size bed and a desk and nothing else. I know that there are still a lot of people living in places like that with no outside place to go during lockdown. I had one friend and former coworker who died, but otherwise neither of us have lost any family members or very close friends. So all in all, we could be doing much worse.
First, I used to travel quite a bit. Conferences, visiting friends in different countries, etc. Since I can mostly work from wherever I am, it was always easy to do five or six trips a year. That obviously hasn't been happening since lockdown started. I live in kind of a grungy, uninteresting neighborhood in South London. I don't particularly like it (we're here out of convenience for my partner's job) but frequent travel really helped me be OK with it. Now, I haven't been more than two miles from my flat in the last year (we don't have a car and going any further would require getting on a train or bus or plane and I don't consider that to be a reasonable thing to do if it's not for an "essential" purpose; the only times I've gone anywhere further than walking distance have been for legally required immigration appointments). I used to occasionally even go and work in a cafe or pub for a few hours, or just hang out for a change of scenery and of course I can't do that either. So I'm really unhappy with my location now and really tired of seeing the same thing every day.
Second, my partner is a university lecturer. Normally, I'd work from home and she'd go to her office on campus. When they moved her classes online and she started working from home, we were in each others' way all the time. She had to pretty much turn our living room and kitchen area into a TV studio with lights, multiple cameras and a green screen setup. If she's having a class, I have to avoid passing through that space, making any noise, or using too much internet bandwidth (no pushing big docker images...) Meanwhile, I'm used to having quiet space to myself to code and that's hard to do when someone is giving a loud lecture right to you. Plus, since it's a lot more work and stress for her and no additional pay, she's been unhappy and when she's not happy, neither am I.
To make things worse, the UK has also been dealing with Brexit and over the last year a significant number of our friends, who happened to be European, left the country. So we were already feeling more isolated and down than usual before lockdown even started since most of our social network disappeared on us.
Still, I try to focus on how good we have it. Both of us are still employed, both in jobs that we can do from home. Our neighborhood is crappy, but our flat is pretty nice even if it's not huge. We live on a loud, busy, polluted street, but we do have a small deck so we could at least sit outside sometimes when the weather was nice (this is the UK though, so that's like three days a year). I remember living in apartments in NYC that were basically big enough for a twin size bed and a desk and nothing else. I know that there are still a lot of people living in places like that with no outside place to go during lockdown. I had one friend and former coworker who died, but otherwise neither of us have lost any family members or very close friends. So all in all, we could be doing much worse.
Yes.
I am just tired of all that shitshow in Germany. No masks at very beginning, then normal masks, then ffp2 in Bavaria. Vaccination goes really slow, I don’t believe, that as a young graybeard will be vaccinated earlier than mid 2022. Travel restrictions make real vacation impossible, I spend them basically in my home office. Home office was forbidden before pandemic, so I see positivity in it.
Work-from-home didn't make things worse.
Constant threat of severe illness and avoiding social contact for a year did.
I've been remote for 5 years, this last year alone was the hard one.
I'm holding out hope that things will turn around soon with fixes to the vaccine rollout, but literally everyone has been on survival mode for way too long.
I've been remote for 5 years, this last year alone was the hard one.
I'm holding out hope that things will turn around soon with fixes to the vaccine rollout, but literally everyone has been on survival mode for way too long.
I've been living like this for the last 16 years and longer actually.
You have to listen to yourself.
I came up with this way. Sometimes I work for 3 weeks even and especially weekends. I'm super productive there, then all of a sudden I lose interest. Then I start playing games. Anything that's fun. Until one day I'm bored of that and get back to work. In both cases I treat it like a game. The work game and the game game. However especially if income is low, I push myself to work. It's not a game then but a fight against my own will.
I had a bad relationship breakup. She cheated and I was very hurt. She made sure I lose all my friends. All those I cared about anyway. In that time coding was my way out of hurt and depression. Focusing every day on progress of one project and seeing it grow. That one project made me about 150k€ and gave me back the self-esteem she destroyed.
Compared to that COVID19 lockdowns are light fruit cakes.
I go outside and walk at least 45min a day. You can't sit at home all day. You need to go outside.
You at least are employed and in a safe situation earning your income and sure about that. I work and don't know if I'll ever see a single cent from the work I'm doing. The project I finish today may or may not take off in 3 years (earlier if I spend money on advertising)
You have to listen to yourself.
I came up with this way. Sometimes I work for 3 weeks even and especially weekends. I'm super productive there, then all of a sudden I lose interest. Then I start playing games. Anything that's fun. Until one day I'm bored of that and get back to work. In both cases I treat it like a game. The work game and the game game. However especially if income is low, I push myself to work. It's not a game then but a fight against my own will.
I had a bad relationship breakup. She cheated and I was very hurt. She made sure I lose all my friends. All those I cared about anyway. In that time coding was my way out of hurt and depression. Focusing every day on progress of one project and seeing it grow. That one project made me about 150k€ and gave me back the self-esteem she destroyed.
Compared to that COVID19 lockdowns are light fruit cakes.
I go outside and walk at least 45min a day. You can't sit at home all day. You need to go outside.
You at least are employed and in a safe situation earning your income and sure about that. I work and don't know if I'll ever see a single cent from the work I'm doing. The project I finish today may or may not take off in 3 years (earlier if I spend money on advertising)
Well I started feeling burned out even before the pandemic
I decided that if I continue in this path it's not going to be healthy for my body and my life
So I decided to change the way I live and I don't see any drop in productivity before and after. The only thing is I'm happy with the current state of my life
The bliss is in life is not getting too attached to things (work, deadlines, startup stress) but letting things go
https://ruky.me/2021/01/19/too-much-hustling-can-kill-you/
I decided that if I continue in this path it's not going to be healthy for my body and my life
So I decided to change the way I live and I don't see any drop in productivity before and after. The only thing is I'm happy with the current state of my life
The bliss is in life is not getting too attached to things (work, deadlines, startup stress) but letting things go
https://ruky.me/2021/01/19/too-much-hustling-can-kill-you/
I have a young child and working from home has given me more time with him and allows me to give my wife breaks throughout the day.
This has been a massive improvement in my entire families quality of life. I can’t imagine going back to an office now.
This has been a massive improvement in my entire families quality of life. I can’t imagine going back to an office now.
I started working from home a couple of years ago.
I can't wait to go back into the office. I wonder how many people enjoy working from home now but won't in another year or two.
I can't wait to go back into the office. I wonder how many people enjoy working from home now but won't in another year or two.
Am I alone to feel work-from-home made things worse?