System76 Launch Configurable Keyboard with Open Source Code(github.com)
github.com
System76 Launch Configurable Keyboard with Open Source Code
https://github.com/system76/launch
329 comments
For those that have a UHK or are thinking of getting one, we have an unofficial Discord server at https://discord.gg/b4z4rfv which is also tunneled with ##uhk on Freenode. Welcome if you want to discuss any UHK matters. :)
Personally I am very happy with my two UHKs (one for the office and one for home, though for obvious reasons they are both home now). I have stopped using a mouse and use the mouse layer exclusively now for working, though on my work one I have a prerelease version of the trackpoint module that I use. Being a split design has made it easier for my hands and finally forced me to learn proper finger technique.
Personally I am very happy with my two UHKs (one for the office and one for home, though for obvious reasons they are both home now). I have stopped using a mouse and use the mouse layer exclusively now for working, though on my work one I have a prerelease version of the trackpoint module that I use. Being a split design has made it easier for my hands and finally forced me to learn proper finger technique.
That looks great! I built a similar one and really enjoy it, the quefrency v2 (https://keeb.io/products/quefrency-rev-2-60-65-split-stagger...). All in, might have been slightly cheaper though also took plenty of time for soldering and assembly.
Before building this, I had tried a split ortholinear and was eying a moolander. Unfortunately, since I have to use a standard laptop for work (and I’m moving around a lot during the day), I just couldn’t reprogram my fingers on an ortholinear ... I found switching back & forth very challenging and in the end, not worth it.
Before building this, I had tried a split ortholinear and was eying a moolander. Unfortunately, since I have to use a standard laptop for work (and I’m moving around a lot during the day), I just couldn’t reprogram my fingers on an ortholinear ... I found switching back & forth very challenging and in the end, not worth it.
I have been using an ortho-linear for years now. I programmed it in a way so that the layout is not too different from a regular keyboard. I like it very much, but because I use a laptop I often switch to a "regular" keyboard (MacBook Pro 2016).
I find this ok, and I still appreciate the comfort of the ortholinear.
I'm currently waiting for a trackball module and I am curious how they fit into your usual keyboard usage. Is it difficult to get used to it? Do you use it as a scroll wheel or as a normal mouse?
I used the trackball module as a mouse but I prefer the trackpoint. If I didn't have the trackpoint, I would probably use the trackball more than the mouse layer. Both were pretty easy to get used to, a few days.
I scroll using the mouse layer mostly. There is a mini trackball in the key cluster module that is handy for more accurate scrolling but it easily also scrolls horizontally. I would assume they'll make it configurable.
I scroll using the mouse layer mostly. There is a mini trackball in the key cluster module that is handy for more accurate scrolling but it easily also scrolls horizontally. I would assume they'll make it configurable.
UHK looks fabulous - thanks for sharing!
Could you explain how dragging works with the trackball module? The website says that the trackball is not pressable and I can't imagine how I would control it and press one of its keys with the same hand.
And one question about the trackpoint, if you have time. I tried trackpoints on my Thinkpad laptops, but couldn't get used to them because they were too stiff. Have you ever come across any alternative tips/nibbles? I would love to have one that feels like a PS controller stick :-)
Could you explain how dragging works with the trackball module? The website says that the trackball is not pressable and I can't imagine how I would control it and press one of its keys with the same hand.
And one question about the trackpoint, if you have time. I tried trackpoints on my Thinkpad laptops, but couldn't get used to them because they were too stiff. Have you ever come across any alternative tips/nibbles? I would love to have one that feels like a PS controller stick :-)
For the first question, you would use some other button on the keyboard to click while dragging. I use the trackpoint which is also not pressable, but I use the mouse layer key to click. My mouse layer is activated with the mouse key in place of caps lock and a left click is with F. Since the UHK is completely mappable, you can find the best key combo for yourself. Only your thumb is occupied on the trackball so you have 4 fingers left for clicking on that hand alone. :)
If you get the left side key cluster module, it has clickers on the edge, so you can use those for clicking with your left hand while dragging with your right. Personally for me it wasn't the most comfortable choice so I stick to my mouse keys.
This is actually my first trackpoint that I really use, so I haven't searched for any alternative tips. I do admit a PS controller stick could be nice. :D Maybe a bit too light to touch?
If you get the left side key cluster module, it has clickers on the edge, so you can use those for clicking with your left hand while dragging with your right. Personally for me it wasn't the most comfortable choice so I stick to my mouse keys.
This is actually my first trackpoint that I really use, so I haven't searched for any alternative tips. I do admit a PS controller stick could be nice. :D Maybe a bit too light to touch?
Was not aware of this product when I was originally looking for a new mech split keyboard.
I did stumble upon the Moonlander [0] but couldn't justify the price point.
Further looking brought me to the Koolertron split keyboard which so far I've been liking for a small "cloffice" used during the lockdowns. I even did a full write up here of what I thought: https://twitter.com/alexpotato/status/1350530940561457155
[0] - https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/
I did stumble upon the Moonlander [0] but couldn't justify the price point.
Further looking brought me to the Koolertron split keyboard which so far I've been liking for a small "cloffice" used during the lockdowns. I even did a full write up here of what I thought: https://twitter.com/alexpotato/status/1350530940561457155
[0] - https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/
I've been using it since 2 weeks now. It's a great keyboard. I was using the redox-wireless before this which is also really good and quite a bit cheaper. but the moonlander helps with my RSI and CTS more than the redox did. Got the white moonlander and a white trackball going now. Great for ergonomics and lessening the strain.
If you can spend the money on it I highly recommend it. If not you can try looking into self-building a redox (I'd recommend non-wireless as the wireless has some quirks atleast mine from falbatech does, falbatech has nice tenting and bamboo casings for split keyboards. You can buy separate parts and kits or buy them pre-built.
If you can spend the money on it I highly recommend it. If not you can try looking into self-building a redox (I'd recommend non-wireless as the wireless has some quirks atleast mine from falbatech does, falbatech has nice tenting and bamboo casings for split keyboards. You can buy separate parts and kits or buy them pre-built.
Typing on it now. It's nice. Justified it as the last keyboard I'll ever need due to it's customizability. That it can replace a mouse by using modifier keys is a giant boon.
Swapped the pinky keys to ones with lighter springs and that is a great ergo boost.
Swapped the pinky keys to ones with lighter springs and that is a great ergo boost.
Also not affiliated at all and seconding this, love mine and would have bought another by now if I still had to go to an office and also work sometimes at home. I've tried all kinds of keyboards - the microsoft ergonomic ones, full size mechanical ones like the das, split ones like the kinesis and the ergodox. UHK I can honestly say is perfect in my opinion and the best of them all. Excitedly awaiting some of the attachment modules for a trackball / trackpad
If UHK would make a bluetooth/wireless model I would buy one in a heartbeat
It has a USB-C port, so could buy a separate adapter. Best Buy's Insignia brand usually has them for < $20.
But how do you power the keyboard?
Ha, I realized this an hour after I posted that response. I wonder if there's a USB-C battery pack with an additional USB-C port?
Powerbank?
I really would like to get one of these nice split keyboards but I have not been able to find one with ISO Nordic layout (Swedish/Finnish if printing the keys).
The UK layout is close but not quite there (enter is 2 rows tall in our layout and one extra key next to it)
http://www.farah.cl/Keyboardery/A-Visual-Comparison-of-Diffe...
The UK layout is close but not quite there (enter is 2 rows tall in our layout and one extra key next to it)
http://www.farah.cl/Keyboardery/A-Visual-Comparison-of-Diffe...
Get a blank key ergodox-ez and program the layout yourself in QMK.
It has the same problem as any ANSI or normal ISO keyboard. Too few keys if I want them anywhere the normal position of the keys. I have no interest in learning new positions for the keys really (even less hiding them behind modifiers keys) that is why I want a fully nordic compatible one. You can't just magically program one or two more keys to a couple of the rows.
Basically after P I need at least 2 keys to the right of it (not counting enter). 3 keys to the right of L (again not counting enter) and one key left of Z (not counting shift).
And yes our enter key is 2 rows tall.
Really all I want is a normal nordic layout keyboard split in 2 with good quality switches and working tilting/wrist rests.
Basically after P I need at least 2 keys to the right of it (not counting enter). 3 keys to the right of L (again not counting enter) and one key left of Z (not counting shift).
And yes our enter key is 2 rows tall.
Really all I want is a normal nordic layout keyboard split in 2 with good quality switches and working tilting/wrist rests.
I've been looking for a month I think the Logitech g915 is the only low profile tactile UK layout in existence. It has been sold out all month.
I'm tempted to change the kicad on this to just take the low profile switches but I can't do the layout change
I'm tempted to change the kicad on this to just take the low profile switches but I can't do the layout change
If I could put low-profile caps and switches (e.g. khail choc) without too crazy modifications, i would buy one in a heartbeat
The UHK is great. I have a V1 with a V2 on order. My only complaint is that my 2 year old ABS key caps have started to show some wear, but I’ve got the new set of PBTs that are for both versions on order as well. I’m going to give my V1 to a good friend who will appreciate it when the V2 comes in.
The UHK looks awesome. I'd totally use it if it had ortholinear keys.
Ergodox might suit you.
Or the Moonlander made by the same people
It looks like the Moonlander might be a bit better if you’ve got smaller hands. A common complaint about the Ergodox is that the thumb clusters can be a huge reach for those with smaller hands.
Personally I have the Ergodox Shine and I love it. If I had to do it again I wouldn’t do the shine though; the backlight just highlights how much cat hair is on my desk.
Personally I have the Ergodox Shine and I love it. If I had to do it again I wouldn’t do the shine though; the backlight just highlights how much cat hair is on my desk.
I ordered a v2! Seems to be a bit of delay due to upstream keycap manufacturing delays though.
Looks like an even more overpriced Kinesis Edge Freestyle/Gaming
Wait - it looks like you have to use Fn-Q or Fn-` for ESC?
That's the original key mapping, yeah, but it's very easy to change in the software it comes with. I immediately re-mapped it so that the escape key works by itself.
You can change literally any key mapping you like, and do some wild stuff with it. I've got shortcuts for taking different types of screenshots mapped to key combos that are easy to reach, for example, because I take tons of screenshots for work.
You can change literally any key mapping you like, and do some wild stuff with it. I've got shortcuts for taking different types of screenshots mapped to key combos that are easy to reach, for example, because I take tons of screenshots for work.
Yeah, that is deal-breaker. I have Caps-Lock assigned to ^C and won't be moving that to Escape...
That's a big waste of the caps lock key. I use it as a modifier key for all kinds of frequently used macros. It's very easy to press two key combos with left hand alone like capslock+q or capslock+space, etc.
Why are so many keyboards tiny like this? If I want a small keyboard, I will just use a laptop.
I have a huge desk, I don't want a 12" keyboard with 2 weird small space keys, and the arrow keys smashed into the right side.
I have a huge desk, I don't want a 12" keyboard with 2 weird small space keys, and the arrow keys smashed into the right side.
In my case, I would like to use a bigger keyboard, but I need a 60%-style layout for RSI reasons.
Unless my right hand (mouse) is very close to my left one, I get RSI.
I started using keyboards without a numpad first, then without the nav cluster. Nowadays I choose keyboard which are taller but narrower, so that I can get the most functionality but without needing to force my right arm too far away: https://tex.com.tw/products/shinobi?variant=16969883648090
Unless my right hand (mouse) is very close to my left one, I get RSI.
I started using keyboards without a numpad first, then without the nav cluster. Nowadays I choose keyboard which are taller but narrower, so that I can get the most functionality but without needing to force my right arm too far away: https://tex.com.tw/products/shinobi?variant=16969883648090
I've never had 'proper' RSI, but I solved all my wrist strain woes by simply placing the mouse smack bang in front of the space key, at a 270 degree angle, so moving the mouse to my left translates to the pointer moving up.
It gives my right hand a much better position, it's quick to switch between mouse and keyboard, and it gives my elbows room to rest on the table.
The only downside is that it requires a slightly deeper desk than having the mouse next to the keyboard, but you probably want space on the desk for your arms anyway.
It gives my right hand a much better position, it's quick to switch between mouse and keyboard, and it gives my elbows room to rest on the table.
The only downside is that it requires a slightly deeper desk than having the mouse next to the keyboard, but you probably want space on the desk for your arms anyway.
I'm using a linear columnar split keyboard now (moonlander from zsa, redox from falbatech before that). That has done much more to reduce strain than anything else I tried.
I would also highly recommend getting a trackball, personally I'm a programmer and have to rely on my hands despite having RSI and CTS.
I would also highly recommend getting a trackball, personally I'm a programmer and have to rely on my hands despite having RSI and CTS.
I was getting RSI constantly no matter what ergonomic keyboard I had (MS sculp or whatsitsname was the only one bearable), eventually I got a programmable split keyboard, ZSA Moonlander - RSI immediately gone.
But apparently that was even an overkill, I loved the programmable part so much that I decided to buy Planck for my gaming pc because it's tiny and can fit on my couch-mouse-pad setup... No RSI either! I use it for programming too now. I have a theory that what was hurting me was the need to move fingers to backspace, ctrl, etc. And maybe the staggering as you need to twist your wrists a little all the time. Ortholinear feels just... more sensible, for muscle memory...
From now on I buy only ortholinear programmable keyboards, they are fun, make more sense, and don't get me RSI!
A number of years ago I ditched mice for a Logitech Tracman and it made a lot of difference in how my wrists felt each night.
I tried different trackballs but ended up using cheap vertical mice, helped a lot with shoulder pain
The Logitech MX Vertical is the GOAT mouse for these issues, IMO. I picked one up when my Microsoft Sculpt gave up the ghost, and I can't imagine ever going back.
The Scuplt was about halfway to a vertical mouse; the MX Vertical is like, all the way there. It was disorienting at first, but I stuck it out for the first weird day or two and I can't say I've ever been happier with a mouse.
The Scuplt was about halfway to a vertical mouse; the MX Vertical is like, all the way there. It was disorienting at first, but I stuck it out for the first weird day or two and I can't say I've ever been happier with a mouse.
I tried most top rated vertical mice, mx included, and ended up with delux wired one. My advise is to try them all before finding one that fits your hand
This company is dedicated to vertical ergo mouses, they offer some pretty neat features: https://evoluent.com/
I don't get it either. Most of the custom mechanical keyboard market seems to focus on 60% keyboards, but personally I use keys beyond that set. The reasoning I read on the internet is that customizable keyboards let you choose the keys you actually need... But I've done a lot of thinking, I need keys beyond 60% all the time.
My suspicion is that the market for TKL keyboards or even full keyboards is already served by the big brands so the custom vendors have a harder time.
My suspicion is that the market for TKL keyboards or even full keyboards is already served by the big brands so the custom vendors have a harder time.
I found that switching to a 40% actually caused me to use a wider variety of "keys" then with the 105-key that I switched from. The ability to control which keys go where in the firmware opens a lot of doors.
For instance, I made a "nav" layer and put the arrowkeys under hjkl because I'm a vim person, and then I put Home, PgUp, PgDn, End under "nm,." because it made sense to me geometrically, and now I use those keys all the time.
Or another one: I brought "Insert" to mirror "Tab" and configured my zsh to do bash-style tab completion on "tab" and to autocomplete from history on "insert". Who the hell uses insert regularly? Me apparently.
Rewiring my brain took some doing, but I'm quite happy with the results.
For instance, I made a "nav" layer and put the arrowkeys under hjkl because I'm a vim person, and then I put Home, PgUp, PgDn, End under "nm,." because it made sense to me geometrically, and now I use those keys all the time.
Or another one: I brought "Insert" to mirror "Tab" and configured my zsh to do bash-style tab completion on "tab" and to autocomplete from history on "insert". Who the hell uses insert regularly? Me apparently.
Rewiring my brain took some doing, but I'm quite happy with the results.
> Who … uses insert regularly?
Me for Shift+Inserting my X Primary selection (eg. HN block quotes. Virtually every single time I ever try to use any non-free OS I end up highlighting something, (Control|Alt|Command)+Tabbing, Shift+Inserting or middle-clicking, and hating my painful life when I realize I have to tab back and manually copy the text with a keyboard chord or dragging down a menu).
Me for Shift+Inserting my X Primary selection (eg. HN block quotes. Virtually every single time I ever try to use any non-free OS I end up highlighting something, (Control|Alt|Command)+Tabbing, Shift+Inserting or middle-clicking, and hating my painful life when I realize I have to tab back and manually copy the text with a keyboard chord or dragging down a menu).
Ha, that's a good point.
The feeling of inserting the primary buffer is so natural that I forgot it exists.
And the feeling of trying to use it and not having it--it's so bad I guess I blocked out.
Shift insert aside, a raw insert is a rare thing--until you tie it to zsh-autosuggestions
The feeling of inserting the primary buffer is so natural that I forgot it exists.
And the feeling of trying to use it and not having it--it's so bad I guess I blocked out.
Shift insert aside, a raw insert is a rare thing--until you tie it to zsh-autosuggestions
My company is forcing using macs, the lack of ability to highlight something and middle click later was the biggest disappointment. I could arrange a TWM, workspaces, etc with Amethyst (I used i3 on Linux), but no solution whatsoever for middle click out there.
edit: typo
> Who the hell uses insert regularly?
Us old-schoolers (veterans of Windows 3.x) reared on the IBM CUA who never really took to those newfangled [Ctrl]-[C|V|X] Macintosh editing keys, that's who.
Us old-schoolers (veterans of Windows 3.x) reared on the IBM CUA who never really took to those newfangled [Ctrl]-[C|V|X] Macintosh editing keys, that's who.
Can you say which keyboard you're using?
Because the idea of having hjkl available everywhere sounds appealing.
I'm using a planck ez, but the layout is heavily custom:
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/eb0696806831fc...
That layout is a bit outdated, i moved super to the outer corner so I can palm press±hold it to manipulate windows in i3 with hjkl. Palm+tap is still enter.
The left hand uses fdsa to move the mouse and vcxz to send mouse scroll wheel events--so it's mirrored hjkl action.
I've done away with the number row in favor of a 10 key, and then mapped the symbols to their finger on the opposite hand, so '@' still goes with 2, but in a different kind of way.
Any symbol with a mate ()[]{} is similarly mirrored (index fingers do these). The idea is that if I ever hurt a hand (which is likely, since I'm a rock climber) I can map a foot pedal to activate a "switch sides" macro and I'll be able to exploit the symmetry to learn to do without whichever hand faster. This hypothesis is untested.
I originally designed it to give my right pinky finger a break, so the hands are further apart to give the index fingers more options and enter is a right palm-press.
Another nice thing about warping your mind to fit inside a tiny keyboard is that you can easily "embed" those neural mappings to a larger keyboard. I have an ergodox ez as well--which has plenty of keys, but I've just ported my planck layout inside of the ergodox and I really just ignore the other keys. I still like it because I can tent either side at different angles, which you can't do with the planck.
http://imgur.com/a/j3dik8b
Disclaimer: this is not a hobby for those unwilling to burn a lot of time tinkering. Also, "maybe it's a bug in my keyboard firmware" is a new and unwelcome thought that must be made peace with. But it's fun for me, and pinky doesn't hurt anymore, so that's something.
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/eb0696806831fc...
That layout is a bit outdated, i moved super to the outer corner so I can palm press±hold it to manipulate windows in i3 with hjkl. Palm+tap is still enter.
The left hand uses fdsa to move the mouse and vcxz to send mouse scroll wheel events--so it's mirrored hjkl action.
I've done away with the number row in favor of a 10 key, and then mapped the symbols to their finger on the opposite hand, so '@' still goes with 2, but in a different kind of way.
Any symbol with a mate ()[]{} is similarly mirrored (index fingers do these). The idea is that if I ever hurt a hand (which is likely, since I'm a rock climber) I can map a foot pedal to activate a "switch sides" macro and I'll be able to exploit the symmetry to learn to do without whichever hand faster. This hypothesis is untested.
I originally designed it to give my right pinky finger a break, so the hands are further apart to give the index fingers more options and enter is a right palm-press.
Another nice thing about warping your mind to fit inside a tiny keyboard is that you can easily "embed" those neural mappings to a larger keyboard. I have an ergodox ez as well--which has plenty of keys, but I've just ported my planck layout inside of the ergodox and I really just ignore the other keys. I still like it because I can tent either side at different angles, which you can't do with the planck.
http://imgur.com/a/j3dik8b
Disclaimer: this is not a hobby for those unwilling to burn a lot of time tinkering. Also, "maybe it's a bug in my keyboard firmware" is a new and unwelcome thought that must be made peace with. But it's fun for me, and pinky doesn't hurt anymore, so that's something.
This sort of thing works on any QMK keyboard.
I do that with xmodmap under Linux (remapping that useless CapsLock key into yet another modifier key. So capsLock+jkl; are my arrows for years, capsLock+space is my return key, etc).
But I would love to have a keyboard that is directly programmable so I can plug it in any OS and enjoy my re mappings without tricky configuration.
Is QMK doing such a thing?
Not the parent, but that's the default place for the arrow keys on my Keyboardio Model 01. In Vim I can use them as-is, but on the Fn layer they're arrow keys. The wsad cluster under Fn are mouse pointer keys.
In fact I only have two complaints about the default layout, both pretty minor. One is that {}[]\| are on the Fn layer which took some adjustment for programming. The other is that with alt and space side by side, I sometimes hit alt+space which on macOS becomes some non-ASCII space character that looks just like ASCII space. A find and replace for that works wonders.
In fact I only have two complaints about the default layout, both pretty minor. One is that {}[]\| are on the Fn layer which took some adjustment for programming. The other is that with alt and space side by side, I sometimes hit alt+space which on macOS becomes some non-ASCII space character that looks just like ASCII space. A find and replace for that works wonders.
you can do with simple cheap Anne Pro 2
During very early days these DIY mech keyboards are all someone's hobby project, finding a low cost, easy to program microcontroller with USB HID support and enough GPIO pins for keyboard matrix is surprisingly hard. ATmega32u4 (and particularly Teensy/Arduino Pro Micro) is popular at that time, the two popular off shelf boards only have 18 GPIO pins usable, the absolutely maximum key count you can get is 9x9=81 keys, not even fitting a TKL, and that's assuming extremely weird routing, for a more sensible routing you wire a 6x12 keyboard matrix, that's 72 keys max, which is why most custom keyboard from these days are 60/67 keys.
After that it's basically a cultural thing.
After that it's basically a cultural thing.
No one I know using a 60% keyboard only uses the 60%. As someone else mentioned, you use things like the fn key.
For my keyboard: fn + jkli (or fn + wsad) for arrow keys. fn + uo for page up/down. fn + hn for home/end. fn + <number> for f1-12.
I rarely used insert/delete. I never used the number pad. I have my capslock set to be fn.
I was tired of a full sized monster keyboard taking so much space on my desk. At first I tried TKL but enter key placement turned out to be awkward for me, so I switched it out for a 60% since there was going to be a learning curve regardless.
For my keyboard: fn + jkli (or fn + wsad) for arrow keys. fn + uo for page up/down. fn + hn for home/end. fn + <number> for f1-12.
I rarely used insert/delete. I never used the number pad. I have my capslock set to be fn.
I was tired of a full sized monster keyboard taking so much space on my desk. At first I tried TKL but enter key placement turned out to be awkward for me, so I switched it out for a 60% since there was going to be a learning curve regardless.
>> I never used the number pad.
I buy 15in or larger laptops specifically to get the 10key num pad built in.....
I buy 15in or larger laptops specifically to get the 10key num pad built in.....
What I really hate about that is that the keyboard isn't centered on my laptop, which means I'm either slightly lopsided on my screen or I'm bending my right wrist at a weird angle
> fn + uo for page up/down.
That would make the ctrl+ pg up/down shortcut that I use to switch between tabs in Firefox (or Kate) much harder. I'd suddenly have to press 3 keys at once instead of two.
That would make the ctrl+ pg up/down shortcut that I use to switch between tabs in Firefox (or Kate) much harder. I'd suddenly have to press 3 keys at once instead of two.
You can just assign the functionality to different keys. Maybe fn with = and -.
I use a 60% and I find that shortcut easier on the 60 than on a fullsize. I've mapped PgDn to Fn + ; and pressing Ctrl + Fn + ; feels easier than reaching for PgDn with my right hand.
[deleted]
I use numberpad extensively, to the point where if you gave me a keyboard with no alphabetical but only num pad, I'd be happy (and use fn keys to get at the rest)
It's a change of mindset.
It's a change of mindset.
You don‘t actually have less keys with a 60% keyboard. You have the same amount of keys, but packed onto function layers.
Instead of reaching with your fingers to far-away keys, you will press a function key, and another key that is closer to your hands. This results in keys that are normally further away on 100% keyboards to become easier to press, because you don‘t have to move your whole hand just to reach that key.
Instead of reaching with your fingers to far-away keys, you will press a function key, and another key that is closer to your hands. This results in keys that are normally further away on 100% keyboards to become easier to press, because you don‘t have to move your whole hand just to reach that key.
To me it sounds like you have less keys but workarounds that you may prefer.
Having more keys is a workaround for not having extra layers :)
Layers are way faster and more versatile than having more keys. 60-65% is pretty ideal when you take the time to set up layers.
That's a memory and repetition issue.
No, it literally requires less hand movement and allows for more function.
Yeah, but it also requires a) setting up and b) learning really well, to put it in muscle memory. The end result may be worth it, but I guess for most people the journey there seems so daunting they never set out on it. (Or am I just judging everyone else after myself?)
Not sure why your response was killed, just vouched for it.
You’re right that it takes muscle memory and time to learn, but in reality it’s not that long. Layers take maybe a day or two to get used to and then you’ll wonder how you ever lived without them!
Seriously, give QMK and layers a shot. You will probably find it much easier to get used to than you think!
You’re right that it takes muscle memory and time to learn, but in reality it’s not that long. Layers take maybe a day or two to get used to and then you’ll wonder how you ever lived without them!
Seriously, give QMK and layers a shot. You will probably find it much easier to get used to than you think!
But you could have all the keys and still use layers.
Before getting any hardware for such a keyboard, I worked on the configuration I'd use. Defining the layers and placing all the keys I wanted.
I initially though I wanted more keys, but as I went I found out I wouldn't use them. It made a lot more sense to have a couple of layers on the thumbs and place all I needed around the rest position. In the end I had nothing important to put on extra keys.
I initially though I wanted more keys, but as I went I found out I wouldn't use them. It made a lot more sense to have a couple of layers on the thumbs and place all I needed around the rest position. In the end I had nothing important to put on extra keys.
I'd swapped to 60% so I could put my mouse where the rest of the keyboard used to be. With home row front and center on a full size the mouse was way to the right which is quite uncomfortable. Moving to 60% was a major improvement.
^ This was also how HHKB was born, IIUC. The guy designed it had issues with Sun Type 4 being way too wide to use with a mouse, and sketched down a sawed-off Type 4, and that got traction.
Most keyboard nerds I know use either something like https://neo-layout.org or something completely custom. It's much better than a fullsize keyboards because your hands truly never leave the homerow for anything and your hand is much closer to your mouse.
Is there any keyboard like that but with a touchpad below the space bar?
Rationale: I used a mouse only for (a very few) games in the last 20 years and moving the hand to reach the mouse loses time. The touchpad is good enough to select and click stuff on screen (and a touchscreen would improve the experience for a few buttons here and there.) Furthermore the mouse has literally more friction than a finger on the touchpad (the ball ages ago, the laser now, the cord, the batteries, etc)
Rationale: I used a mouse only for (a very few) games in the last 20 years and moving the hand to reach the mouse loses time. The touchpad is good enough to select and click stuff on screen (and a touchscreen would improve the experience for a few buttons here and there.) Furthermore the mouse has literally more friction than a finger on the touchpad (the ball ages ago, the laser now, the cord, the batteries, etc)
I don't know of one, but I'm pretty sure you could hack something with a small enough wacom tablet if you really wanted. I used a wacom tablet for some time when my mouse broke and the store didn't have the one I wanted. Anyways, trackpoints are readily available and can easily be added even to custom keyboards. They're even more handy than trackpads in my opinion, since with a trackpad you still have to leave the keys while you can install the trackpoint at the hjn-join or the fgv-join (or whatever the layout puts there, for me it'd be nrt and aeä).
They put those keys on other layers. Like on many keyboards, you have a Fn key which activates a layer that makes the F8 key a play/pause button or w/e. Just put the less used but still necessary keys on another layer.
Or configure certain keys to do something different with a double or triple tap. Double tap lshift = [ Double tap rshift = ], etc.
They are highly configurable.
Or configure certain keys to do something different with a double or triple tap. Double tap lshift = [ Double tap rshift = ], etc.
They are highly configurable.
Moving your hand to the key is faster than pressing a key combo needed for it or double tapping. At least for me it is.
Moving your hand is also more likely to result in a repetitive stress injury.
Heavy keys as well, and harsh bottom-out.
There's a ton of rethinking what a keyboard is that is going on in the ergo space right now as to what a keyboard _should_ be and how they should function. From physical layouts, curvature, keymaps, layering and combos it's interesting to see the experimentation going on. These devices are going to be used for the rest of our lives, they should at least be non-harmful over time.
Right now I'm using a GergoPlex, but my holy grail is a QMK'd DataHand. (And if you know who has one, please send them my way)
There's a ton of rethinking what a keyboard is that is going on in the ergo space right now as to what a keyboard _should_ be and how they should function. From physical layouts, curvature, keymaps, layering and combos it's interesting to see the experimentation going on. These devices are going to be used for the rest of our lives, they should at least be non-harmful over time.
Right now I'm using a GergoPlex, but my holy grail is a QMK'd DataHand. (And if you know who has one, please send them my way)
You have already designed many keyboards, go on with a GergoHand! (happy Gergo, not Plex, user here)
I wish it was that easy! There's so many mechanical parts to consider and CAD is not my strong suit.
That being said, if someone wants to miniturise the LalBoard and rework it, I could design a PCB/firmware :)
That being said, if someone wants to miniturise the LalBoard and rework it, I could design a PCB/firmware :)
It was more of an "I dare you", not that it is that easy at all. To be fair, I don't think I'd find it more comfortable than a normal split keyboard
Curiously I find the opposite: home-row typing, or using wrist rests etc and keeping my hands static, cause me quite bad RSI. Instead I use a very "floating" style of typing where my hands move very freely over the keyboard, kinda like playing the piano.
That makes sense to me. You get repetitive stress injury from repetitive overuse of small and weak muscles, not from using bigger muscles (like your shoulders) to move your hands/arms in non-strenuous ways.
I've always felt the same way. My fingers naturally want to spread out, so pulling them close enough together to rest on the home keys causes a lot of tension.
Please substantiate that. From what I’ve heard these things can lead to injury:
1. Repeatedly/repetitively using small/weak/fine-motor muscles
2. Contorting your hands (like holding multiple modifirs with the same hand and also pressing whatever non-modifier)
Moving your whole hand from the venerable home row to for example the nav cluster doesn’t fall under any of the above, since you can move your arm with your shoulder. I have never had problems with using larger muscles like my shoulders all day for simple, non-strenuous tasks, and I haven’t heard of people who have reported problems with it yet. I have however heard of people who have gotten in trouble because they repeatedly do tiny motions with their fingers or hands. Which is tempting since it can feel easier to use those muscles for precise control -- I certainly pen-write with my wrist too much when I should be using my shoulder more -- but can easily lead to fatigue or worse.
I have had more problems with Emacs’ modifier-heavy default keybindings than I’ve ever had with modifier-less peasant software like word processors, ergonomics-wise.
It isn’t a problem for me ergonomically to move to the arrow keys if I want to do a bunch of “meta” keys like move word right or left,[1] which is harder to do on som fn-keyboard where you both have to hold down the shift key and the fn key. I also am able to use the arrow keys from the somewhat overrated home row, but that is on a non-configurable keyboard (remapped in software).
I would say that people have a minor point when they say that moving your hands wastes time. Kind of like me going for a five minute walk every so often wastes time compared to sitting at my desk for eight hours straight. Now I’m putting a fine point on it, but I actually think that even a little bit of gross movement like that can be more beneficial than hurtful.
I’ve used a cheap 60% keyboard for a while and it was never really my thing (just got it for the n-key rollover):
1. You can’t reprogram the fn key on the keyboard (again if cheap)
2. You can’t reprogram the fn key in software since it is effectively “blessed” (your OS can’t see it)
3. Now you’re stuck with whatever fn layout that they made, which is often subpar (example: my 60% has some fn-whatever combos that turn off keys or lock them which just causes problems whenever I accidentally press them (always accidentally))
4. Big Brand keyboards are customizable but their software is likely to be too limited, which means that you have to buy somewhat boutique keyboards in order to truly map the fn layer business the way you want
5. I already alluded to how multi-modifier keybindings can be a pain: a lot of software assume that you use a regular keyboard so they will throw keybindings like Ctrl+Shift+PageUp at you, which might translate to something unwieldy like Fn+Ctrl+Shift+P. That’s too much hassle. (Intellij is a real sinner in this regard.)
I currently use a tenkeyless keyboard which gives me the only less-than-fullsize keyboard advantage that I care about: my mouse is closer.
[1]: Yes, sometimes I use built-in/embedded editors or textfields (like Firefox’s address bar) that are not Vim or Emacs; No, I don’t want to configure every last software that I use that contain mini-editors to use some kind of Vim-like plugin so that I can e.g. move word-right with `w`.
1. Repeatedly/repetitively using small/weak/fine-motor muscles
2. Contorting your hands (like holding multiple modifirs with the same hand and also pressing whatever non-modifier)
Moving your whole hand from the venerable home row to for example the nav cluster doesn’t fall under any of the above, since you can move your arm with your shoulder. I have never had problems with using larger muscles like my shoulders all day for simple, non-strenuous tasks, and I haven’t heard of people who have reported problems with it yet. I have however heard of people who have gotten in trouble because they repeatedly do tiny motions with their fingers or hands. Which is tempting since it can feel easier to use those muscles for precise control -- I certainly pen-write with my wrist too much when I should be using my shoulder more -- but can easily lead to fatigue or worse.
I have had more problems with Emacs’ modifier-heavy default keybindings than I’ve ever had with modifier-less peasant software like word processors, ergonomics-wise.
It isn’t a problem for me ergonomically to move to the arrow keys if I want to do a bunch of “meta” keys like move word right or left,[1] which is harder to do on som fn-keyboard where you both have to hold down the shift key and the fn key. I also am able to use the arrow keys from the somewhat overrated home row, but that is on a non-configurable keyboard (remapped in software).
I would say that people have a minor point when they say that moving your hands wastes time. Kind of like me going for a five minute walk every so often wastes time compared to sitting at my desk for eight hours straight. Now I’m putting a fine point on it, but I actually think that even a little bit of gross movement like that can be more beneficial than hurtful.
I’ve used a cheap 60% keyboard for a while and it was never really my thing (just got it for the n-key rollover):
1. You can’t reprogram the fn key on the keyboard (again if cheap)
2. You can’t reprogram the fn key in software since it is effectively “blessed” (your OS can’t see it)
3. Now you’re stuck with whatever fn layout that they made, which is often subpar (example: my 60% has some fn-whatever combos that turn off keys or lock them which just causes problems whenever I accidentally press them (always accidentally))
4. Big Brand keyboards are customizable but their software is likely to be too limited, which means that you have to buy somewhat boutique keyboards in order to truly map the fn layer business the way you want
5. I already alluded to how multi-modifier keybindings can be a pain: a lot of software assume that you use a regular keyboard so they will throw keybindings like Ctrl+Shift+PageUp at you, which might translate to something unwieldy like Fn+Ctrl+Shift+P. That’s too much hassle. (Intellij is a real sinner in this regard.)
I currently use a tenkeyless keyboard which gives me the only less-than-fullsize keyboard advantage that I care about: my mouse is closer.
[1]: Yes, sometimes I use built-in/embedded editors or textfields (like Firefox’s address bar) that are not Vim or Emacs; No, I don’t want to configure every last software that I use that contain mini-editors to use some kind of Vim-like plugin so that I can e.g. move word-right with `w`.
> From what I’ve heard these things can lead to injury
I am not aware of real studies and conclusions on this matter. If you are subject to this problem, even finding professional expertise is difficult and eventually expensive. Investing 100-200 usd to experiment doesn’t sound absurd. In my experience, enthusiast keyboard hold their value pretty well if you are not satisfied.
Anyway, I like the small ortholinear keyboards with thumb keys because the whole keyboard is accessible with very little movements and combos do not require stretching.
I am not aware of real studies and conclusions on this matter. If you are subject to this problem, even finding professional expertise is difficult and eventually expensive. Investing 100-200 usd to experiment doesn’t sound absurd. In my experience, enthusiast keyboard hold their value pretty well if you are not satisfied.
Anyway, I like the small ortholinear keyboards with thumb keys because the whole keyboard is accessible with very little movements and combos do not require stretching.
Well if there are no real studies or conclusions then it could go either way. No one makes investments based on hacker folklore; that’s just an after the fact rationalization by people who were already enthusiasts.
I have experimented myself. That was what that whole post was about. I am quite picky when it comes to keyboards so I have bought a few of them over the last year. But my experiments won’t lead to “real studies”, nor will anyone else’s, so that point seems misplaced since you open your post by dismissing my anecdotes.
Somewhat expensive keyboards is a particular hobby for people with disposable income. Programmers don’t have some special need for typing speed or ergonomics compared to other office workers. If we did have a need for speed, for example, we would learn something like Plover since that would make us write at least twice as fast (at least for prose, but I type that quite often.) It also allows us to buy regular keyboards and not crazy expensive steno machines. But we don’t: instead we do some minor “optimizations” with one-key-per-letter keyboards like use the home row 25% more and gain 200% more subjective empowerement (I’ve customized my keyboard in software to do the same thing).
> Anyway, I like the small ortholinear keyboards with thumb keys because the whole keyboard is accessible with very little movements and combos do not require stretching.
No modifier combos require stretching on a regular keyboard as well; notice how all the modifier keys are close together in case you need to press multiple ones at the same time, and at least a few of them (like control and shift, maybe “Windows” and Alt) should be on both sides of the keyboard. Regular keyboards don’t have a stretching problem as long as you touch type.
I have experimented myself. That was what that whole post was about. I am quite picky when it comes to keyboards so I have bought a few of them over the last year. But my experiments won’t lead to “real studies”, nor will anyone else’s, so that point seems misplaced since you open your post by dismissing my anecdotes.
Somewhat expensive keyboards is a particular hobby for people with disposable income. Programmers don’t have some special need for typing speed or ergonomics compared to other office workers. If we did have a need for speed, for example, we would learn something like Plover since that would make us write at least twice as fast (at least for prose, but I type that quite often.) It also allows us to buy regular keyboards and not crazy expensive steno machines. But we don’t: instead we do some minor “optimizations” with one-key-per-letter keyboards like use the home row 25% more and gain 200% more subjective empowerement (I’ve customized my keyboard in software to do the same thing).
> Anyway, I like the small ortholinear keyboards with thumb keys because the whole keyboard is accessible with very little movements and combos do not require stretching.
No modifier combos require stretching on a regular keyboard as well; notice how all the modifier keys are close together in case you need to press multiple ones at the same time, and at least a few of them (like control and shift, maybe “Windows” and Alt) should be on both sides of the keyboard. Regular keyboards don’t have a stretching problem as long as you touch type.
> "programmers don’t have some special need for typing speed or ergonomics compared to other office workers."
not sure I can take that for granted; the need for typing speed could come from having to grind through a ton of boilerplate - you can see the desire coming through as intellisense/autocomplete, and from abbreviations like "str", "std", "int", "fn", "<T>", etc. instead of full names. Assume other office workers are writing English to communicate an idea, English doesn't start with public static void main implements EmailMessage, IMemo, getter, setter, whatever whatever. So maybe programmers do have a need for typing speed, because of using such inexpressive languages (APL/J/K programmers need not apply).
> "If we did have a need for speed, for example, we would learn something like Plover since that would make us write at least twice as fast (at least for prose, but I type that quite often.)"
Again, not sure I can take this for granted - Steno is used for transcription, it's basically another way of spelling every word, phonetically. My suspicion is that it's more mental work to use it than it is to write normally. Is it still as fast, as useful, if you also have to come up with what to write? Take this video of record holding court reporter Mark Kislingbury taking transcription:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61c0bEdVtX4
His fingers move slowly to capture fast speech, but he is only writing the sounds down, he goes on to read back from the Steno phonetic transcript which you can see is not fleshed out English prose. That excuses him from any need for capturing homonyms, clashes between multi-syllable words vs separate words, punctuation, spelling, parentheses, caps on abbreviations, commas in numbers, etc.
Now take some person who came up in the search results for Plover videos, writing after ~6 months practise:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28v3cm21uAA
The words appear quite quickly, but there are lots of pauses and corrections which means I can approximately keep up with it on a QWERTY keyboard, losing ground when they are in flow and catching up when they pause. Impressive though it is, and maybe a little faster but it's still going to take them a lot more effort to get from here to anything like double this speed. The pauses and corrections suggest to me that it takes a lot more thought to do it - and the corrections of Steno mistakes aren't typos of individual letters in words, they're whole sound and word changes like REGOURDLESS instead of REGARDLESS and "Steno is much more ergonomic than questionnaire" instead of "than QWERTY". That is, a typo left in a normal typing document is usually understandable, a miskey with Steno is more jarring like an autocorrect substitution. And you can see slow parts, e.g. where they write numbers like 225, the farther you deviate from prose the harder it gets to go fast - and I do tend to write names of programs, names of servers, IP addresses, customer company name abbreviations, made up words and spellings for emphasis (like "customer says yoooooouuuuuuuuu broke it"), project and software and product and vendor names, and etc. AFAIK, a lot of the real speed boosts come from adding custom short briefs for long words you write a lot - e.g. specialising in legal, medical, or technical subjects and adding shortcuts for those, which you can potentially do with snippets and hotkeys to help normal typing overall. And of course, two full hands, a custom keyboard, and custom software.
That's not to say I don't like it, or don't respect it, or don't think it's faster, but it is more nuanced than simply being "learn it and write at least twice as fast". Mark Kislingbury is world class good, it is literally his job and his career and his record is 360 wpm. If everything you typed took you 1/3rd of the time, how much would that change your life? George R. R. Martin surely isn't holding off the last books of Game of Thrones because of typing speed. Typing speed probably isn't the limit of how many emails you can get through in your inbox, or how long you spend in meetings, or how clearly you can write documentation, or etc. I suggest if not using it as a career transcriber, considering it as hobby, or procrastination like people overly focused on their note taking systems instead of what the notes were supposed to be helping with. Almost every book or document or program ever written was written on qwerty or typewriter or pen and paper, and got on fine with it; good enough is good enough.
On another side of it, like the quote "I would have written a shorter letter, but I did not have the time.", life and office life is overburdened by prose, it's already too easy to write paragraphs of guff that never gets to the point, who doesn't have an overflowing email inbox these days? Being able to churn it out faster possibly shouldn't be the goal - anyone wonder what it would be like if we all had to write like Stephen Hawking? Think as much as you like but turning it into text for someone else to read will cost you; making writers suffer, to make readers lives easier with less to read. Use a horrible painful keyboard, write less, your audience won't thank you because they won't be thinking of you, but good because the point should be to get out of their way not to take their attention for as long as you can.
(Author, condense thyself; yes I should)
not sure I can take that for granted; the need for typing speed could come from having to grind through a ton of boilerplate - you can see the desire coming through as intellisense/autocomplete, and from abbreviations like "str", "std", "int", "fn", "<T>", etc. instead of full names. Assume other office workers are writing English to communicate an idea, English doesn't start with public static void main implements EmailMessage, IMemo, getter, setter, whatever whatever. So maybe programmers do have a need for typing speed, because of using such inexpressive languages (APL/J/K programmers need not apply).
> "If we did have a need for speed, for example, we would learn something like Plover since that would make us write at least twice as fast (at least for prose, but I type that quite often.)"
Again, not sure I can take this for granted - Steno is used for transcription, it's basically another way of spelling every word, phonetically. My suspicion is that it's more mental work to use it than it is to write normally. Is it still as fast, as useful, if you also have to come up with what to write? Take this video of record holding court reporter Mark Kislingbury taking transcription:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61c0bEdVtX4
His fingers move slowly to capture fast speech, but he is only writing the sounds down, he goes on to read back from the Steno phonetic transcript which you can see is not fleshed out English prose. That excuses him from any need for capturing homonyms, clashes between multi-syllable words vs separate words, punctuation, spelling, parentheses, caps on abbreviations, commas in numbers, etc.
Now take some person who came up in the search results for Plover videos, writing after ~6 months practise:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28v3cm21uAA
The words appear quite quickly, but there are lots of pauses and corrections which means I can approximately keep up with it on a QWERTY keyboard, losing ground when they are in flow and catching up when they pause. Impressive though it is, and maybe a little faster but it's still going to take them a lot more effort to get from here to anything like double this speed. The pauses and corrections suggest to me that it takes a lot more thought to do it - and the corrections of Steno mistakes aren't typos of individual letters in words, they're whole sound and word changes like REGOURDLESS instead of REGARDLESS and "Steno is much more ergonomic than questionnaire" instead of "than QWERTY". That is, a typo left in a normal typing document is usually understandable, a miskey with Steno is more jarring like an autocorrect substitution. And you can see slow parts, e.g. where they write numbers like 225, the farther you deviate from prose the harder it gets to go fast - and I do tend to write names of programs, names of servers, IP addresses, customer company name abbreviations, made up words and spellings for emphasis (like "customer says yoooooouuuuuuuuu broke it"), project and software and product and vendor names, and etc. AFAIK, a lot of the real speed boosts come from adding custom short briefs for long words you write a lot - e.g. specialising in legal, medical, or technical subjects and adding shortcuts for those, which you can potentially do with snippets and hotkeys to help normal typing overall. And of course, two full hands, a custom keyboard, and custom software.
That's not to say I don't like it, or don't respect it, or don't think it's faster, but it is more nuanced than simply being "learn it and write at least twice as fast". Mark Kislingbury is world class good, it is literally his job and his career and his record is 360 wpm. If everything you typed took you 1/3rd of the time, how much would that change your life? George R. R. Martin surely isn't holding off the last books of Game of Thrones because of typing speed. Typing speed probably isn't the limit of how many emails you can get through in your inbox, or how long you spend in meetings, or how clearly you can write documentation, or etc. I suggest if not using it as a career transcriber, considering it as hobby, or procrastination like people overly focused on their note taking systems instead of what the notes were supposed to be helping with. Almost every book or document or program ever written was written on qwerty or typewriter or pen and paper, and got on fine with it; good enough is good enough.
On another side of it, like the quote "I would have written a shorter letter, but I did not have the time.", life and office life is overburdened by prose, it's already too easy to write paragraphs of guff that never gets to the point, who doesn't have an overflowing email inbox these days? Being able to churn it out faster possibly shouldn't be the goal - anyone wonder what it would be like if we all had to write like Stephen Hawking? Think as much as you like but turning it into text for someone else to read will cost you; making writers suffer, to make readers lives easier with less to read. Use a horrible painful keyboard, write less, your audience won't thank you because they won't be thinking of you, but good because the point should be to get out of their way not to take their attention for as long as you can.
(Author, condense thyself; yes I should)
If programming were about typing speed we should all write at least 5K LOC a day.
> I currently use a tenkeyless keyboard which gives me the only less-than-fullsize keyboard advantage that I care about: my mouse is closer.
FINALLY an advantage to my "handicap": I use the numeric keypad somewhat frequently, and the additional size of the keyboard doesn't bother me at all. The number pad could be as large as another full-size keyboard, and my mouse wouldn't be a nanometre further away. And ever since I bought my left-handed mouse, it's comfortable and ergonomic and whatnot, too.
FINALLY an advantage to my "handicap": I use the numeric keypad somewhat frequently, and the additional size of the keyboard doesn't bother me at all. The number pad could be as large as another full-size keyboard, and my mouse wouldn't be a nanometre further away. And ever since I bought my left-handed mouse, it's comfortable and ergonomic and whatnot, too.
[deleted]
I use CAPSLOCK as my fn key, it's right under my pinky, no need to move my hand. On my second layer I have arrow keys set on hjkl so in programs that don't support vim key bindings I can use them without moving my hand from the home row.
This is a more efficient way to use the arrow keys compared to a standard keyboard where you have to move your hand out of the home row.
This is a more efficient way to use the arrow keys compared to a standard keyboard where you have to move your hand out of the home row.
Not if you can activate the layer immediately with your thumb.
For what it's worth, this keyboard seems right up my alley. I'm currently on approximately a 60% keyboard, and I'm wary of using anything larger because I simply don't have the desk real estate for it. I have single board computers and power supplies and notepads and cables and sticky-notes coming out my ears, and going further up in keyboard size would cut down on my free space even more.
My current Keychron fits the bill nicely, and I think this System76 is right in the same vein, except with some improved flexibility. I don't need a full-sized keyboard, I just want a comfortable keyboard with dedicated PageUp/Down + Home/End keys. Plus, for whatever it's worth, I'm digging my Pop!_OS distro, so knowing that their keyboard will play nice with it is an extra bonus.
My current Keychron fits the bill nicely, and I think this System76 is right in the same vein, except with some improved flexibility. I don't need a full-sized keyboard, I just want a comfortable keyboard with dedicated PageUp/Down + Home/End keys. Plus, for whatever it's worth, I'm digging my Pop!_OS distro, so knowing that their keyboard will play nice with it is an extra bonus.
Those who really care that much about keyboards often want an efficient touch typing experience. Many people think that less keys are more efficient (easier to reach and easier to find without looking) and you just use layers. I tend to agree with that point of view, but I am not yet at 40% ;-)
I was surprised how easy it was to adapt to a 60% keyboard. Some obvious fn key mappings for pgup, pgdn, home, end, (arrows) and del (backspace) cover the bulk of it.
Have you heard about how people who grew up with MP3 prefer music that's not lossless encoded but that's missing the same frequencies as in mp3 files?
It's the same, except with keyboards: if you grew up with a laptop, you want a 60% keyboard because it's "natural".
If you don't believe it, just look at /r/MechanicalKeyboards on reddit: 9/10 posts are about 60% keyboards.
It's the same, except with keyboards: if you grew up with a laptop, you want a 60% keyboard because it's "natural".
If you don't believe it, just look at /r/MechanicalKeyboards on reddit: 9/10 posts are about 60% keyboards.
> It's the same, except with keyboards: if you grew up with a laptop, you want a 60% keyboard because it's "natural".
I don't use a 60% keyboard, but I do use a tenkeyless keyboard because I do love my F keys.
My choice has zero to do with laptop keyboard. In fact, I hate laptop keyboards. Laptop keyboards are the result of severe design constraints imposed by the laptop's form factor, and most of them are pure crap to begin with.
Tenkeyless and 60% keyboards don't take over half your desk for no good reason, and provide you with everything you want or need. And they are symmetric too.
To put it differently, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever a regular user going about their regular day would need a standard keyboard. The tenkey section is one of those oddities that barely anyone touches ever, and more often than not only serve as indicators of when you need to clean your keyboard.
I don't use a 60% keyboard, but I do use a tenkeyless keyboard because I do love my F keys.
My choice has zero to do with laptop keyboard. In fact, I hate laptop keyboards. Laptop keyboards are the result of severe design constraints imposed by the laptop's form factor, and most of them are pure crap to begin with.
Tenkeyless and 60% keyboards don't take over half your desk for no good reason, and provide you with everything you want or need. And they are symmetric too.
To put it differently, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever a regular user going about their regular day would need a standard keyboard. The tenkey section is one of those oddities that barely anyone touches ever, and more often than not only serve as indicators of when you need to clean your keyboard.
I grew up with desktops with big ass full sized keyboards and gravitated towards 60/65% over time. It's just much more comfortable to use.
As a programmer you need (or actually want) to make use of some of the most acrobatic shortcuts that cross a large portion of the keyboard. Having a smaller keyboard just makes that a lot more comfortable, because you don't need to have hands the size of King Kong to be able to utilise those shortcuts. :-)
Do you have examples of such shortcuts? Apart from CTRL+C/X and CTRL+V I can't think of any useful?
Lots of IDEs have complicated keyboard chords. For IntelliJ, there's Alt+[1..9], Shift+F6, Ctrl+Alt+L, and others on a daily basis. Some of them cross basically the entire keyboard, and it's not convenient to use one hand to do so.
Anything a computer can do can be assigned to a shortcut.
Use vim and the command line. Why would I need anything other than a full-size mechanical clicky keyboard with full travel? My hands rarely stray off the home row.
In this case I believe it's because System76 want to start designing their own laptop rather than relying on off-the-shelf Clevo designs and some of this keyboard design might make it into their own laptop.
I do like smaller keyboards though, easier to switch with laptop, less finger travel, less travel to the mouse and so on
I do like smaller keyboards though, easier to switch with laptop, less finger travel, less travel to the mouse and so on
That would be great, e.g. a customizable laptop keyboard with an open source firmware :-)
Let aside the personal preferences, 60% was popularized by the gaming crowd:
1. Small means the mouse is closer to the keyboard 2. Games often rely on wasd instead of arrows 3. 40% cheaper for alternative switches and keycaps, or higher margins for the producers 4. Style and look may feel like more exclusive, competitive, make hands look bigger. Fashion is important in this community.
Thanks to their firmware, they are very usable but it is really a matter of personal preferences.
1. Small means the mouse is closer to the keyboard 2. Games often rely on wasd instead of arrows 3. 40% cheaper for alternative switches and keycaps, or higher margins for the producers 4. Style and look may feel like more exclusive, competitive, make hands look bigger. Fashion is important in this community.
Thanks to their firmware, they are very usable but it is really a matter of personal preferences.
If you're lucky, you can find old IBM model M keyboards for free, or close. I got two, first one like 25 years ago from a surplus store for like 10 Euros of today and the second one a few years later for free as it was being thrown away by a government office "because it doesn't fit the rack drawer and doesn't have windows keys".
I'm still using the first one, which is old enough to carry a shiny Lotus 1-2-3 version 2.2 sticker on it.
Those are rock solid beasts; I already know I'll die a lot before any of these keyboards will fail, and I don't plan to die soon:).
No USB connection of course as those keyboards predate the standard, but any cheapo PS/2-USB converter will work.
No USB connection of course as those keyboards predate the standard, but any cheapo PS/2-USB converter will work.
I've been told that not all PS2-USB converters work. But many cheap ones do, so just get from a place with a good return policy.
Beware that the Model M draws more power than USB is allowed to supply. I've never heard of this being a problem in the real world, but I always plug my model M into a powered hub to ensure there is plenty of power available.
Beware that the Model M draws more power than USB is allowed to supply. I've never heard of this being a problem in the real world, but I always plug my model M into a powered hub to ensure there is plenty of power available.
Many PS2-USB "converters" are really just "adapters" that actually rely on the keyboard to do the heavy lifting internally. These do not work at all. It sounds like it has gotten better but it used to be quite hard to get an M working. Of course these isn't much(any?) other ~40 year old PC equipment that is this easy to get working.
> I've been told that not all PS2-USB converters work.
True converters do. Those that don't work are just connector adapters relying on the mainboard to recognize that a PS/2 device is connected although on a USB port. To be sure you get a working adapter, never buy single port ones as they often contain just connection wires. All converters I tried with dual PS2 port, to be used with mouse and keyboard together, contained a real protocol converter and worked flawlessly on all PCs. An image search for "ps/2 usb" returns may examples of the two converters types.
True converters do. Those that don't work are just connector adapters relying on the mainboard to recognize that a PS/2 device is connected although on a USB port. To be sure you get a working adapter, never buy single port ones as they often contain just connection wires. All converters I tried with dual PS2 port, to be used with mouse and keyboard together, contained a real protocol converter and worked flawlessly on all PCs. An image search for "ps/2 usb" returns may examples of the two converters types.
My primary keyboard now is a Kinesis Freestyle Pro, and my favorite feature isn't the split, it that it's programmable and has a split spacebar.
The main reason I moved my hands around before was to use the arrow keys, and now they are mapped to [right spacebar] + [IJKL]. I have also expanded a little to use U and O as backspace and delete on that same layer. I don't think I could ever memorize 3+ layers, but this small use of a second layer that is very easy to access has been great for me.
The main reason I moved my hands around before was to use the arrow keys, and now they are mapped to [right spacebar] + [IJKL]. I have also expanded a little to use U and O as backspace and delete on that same layer. I don't think I could ever memorize 3+ layers, but this small use of a second layer that is very easy to access has been great for me.
I've been very happy with a layout that is a middle ground between full-size and 60%. Basically you have 18 keys on the right-hand side that can be toggled (using a dedicated button) between arrows + pageup/down + insert etc, and the traditional numpad layout. It is very rare that I need both numpad and arrow keys at the exact same time, so I don't lose any functionality but my hands are more centered towards the front. Even things like Blender that rely heavily on numpad for 3D navigation works well.
My model is old, looks like the most similar current model is the Coolermaster "Masterkeys Pro M" (RGB or white LEDs available):
https://www.coolermaster.com/us/en-us/catalog/peripheral/key...
Picture of the layout:
https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/cdn.coolermaster.com/asse...
My model is old, looks like the most similar current model is the Coolermaster "Masterkeys Pro M" (RGB or white LEDs available):
https://www.coolermaster.com/us/en-us/catalog/peripheral/key...
Picture of the layout:
https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/cdn.coolermaster.com/asse...
Another name for this layout is 96 key. I built my own using a YMDK melody 96 layout but before that build I bought the VictSing 96 key which was super cheap (around $50 delivered from the US) and apart from the keycaps having awful legends wasn't too bad.
I did a bit of blog series as I went through the design and build process after my Model M died after a coffee accident. https://www.ibbotson.co.uk/tag/keyboards/
I'm mulling over doing a custom design with a ISO/US layout so I can kill the function key row but keep both ~` and the escape key. Basically the "Vortex Vibe" but with an ISO layout.
I did a bit of blog series as I went through the design and build process after my Model M died after a coffee accident. https://www.ibbotson.co.uk/tag/keyboards/
I'm mulling over doing a custom design with a ISO/US layout so I can kill the function key row but keep both ~` and the escape key. Basically the "Vortex Vibe" but with an ISO layout.
> Why are so many keyboards tiny like this? If I want a small keyboard, I will just use a laptop.
That makes absolutely no sense. Your choice of keyboard should not come attached to a monitor.
Furthermore, laptop keyboards are notoriously unmaintainable and uncleanable.
If all you want is to be able to use a nice keyboard that doesn't take over half your desk space, specially if it's already cramped, then this is the stuff you crave.
That makes absolutely no sense. Your choice of keyboard should not come attached to a monitor.
Furthermore, laptop keyboards are notoriously unmaintainable and uncleanable.
If all you want is to be able to use a nice keyboard that doesn't take over half your desk space, specially if it's already cramped, then this is the stuff you crave.
I always wondered this too and it seems odd, but, over the last 5 years I'm noticing a trend of developers using their macbooks/ultrabooks as primary and they are used to that format and look for it in a workstation/docked keyboard.
Personally my numpad is indispensable and I never understood the desire to have a tiny keyboard.
Personally my numpad is indispensable and I never understood the desire to have a tiny keyboard.
Most "tiny" keyboard layouts put the numpad one keypress away, right under your hand. With an ortho keyboard you don't even have to retrain muscle memory. There's very little downside.
Because other people want small keyboards, I'd imagine.
If I want a small keyboard I want it with a built in pointing device, and those are hard to find. Lenovo trackpoint keyboard is one of the few I can think of.
Tex in Taiwan also make keyboards with trackpoints.
https://www.tex-design.com.tw/us-en/products.php?cid=17
https://www.tex-design.com.tw/us-en/products.php?cid=17
Thanks to those who responded. The Tex keyboard looks nice but it is $300! I had seen the Logitech 400 before, but forgot about it because it is wireless and I'm old-fashioned enough to want to still use USB keyboards, to not broadcast passwords and that sort of thing. I should have been more specific though. Those clip-on accessory trackpoints etc do look nice and I didn't know about them.
The Logitech K400 (sold as a smart TV keyboard mainly) is pretty well known, and they have a bunch of other keyboards with touchpad.
Yeah it's great (I have 5 of them) for remote keyboard for netflix with bigscreen, or for raspberry pi where you can just plug in one USB thing and have keyboard/mouse, but I don't think many people would cope with it for ongoing use.
UHK offers trackpads, trackballs, and trackpoints for all your tracking needs. https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/shop
Modularity is avery cool feature! :drooling:
My problem with UHK though that it's not ortholinear...
Personally I have my keyboard on my lap so having a full-size keyboard is rather inconvenient.
But I think this video is an excellent introduction on the reasoning why tiny keyboards are popular: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKGXZ1ReU54
But I think this video is an excellent introduction on the reasoning why tiny keyboards are popular: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKGXZ1ReU54
I prefer the smaller footprint because it means I don't have to reach too far to the right when I use my trackpad.
I've been using a HHKB for the past 3 years and have gotten used to not having to stretch my right arm to reach the trackpad. You get used to the arrow keys being in a different place as well, especially with the HHKB which requires you to press a function key to use them.
I've been using a HHKB for the past 3 years and have gotten used to not having to stretch my right arm to reach the trackpad. You get used to the arrow keys being in a different place as well, especially with the HHKB which requires you to press a function key to use them.
Many commenters offered reasons to like 60%, but as a TKL enthusiast myself, I'm inclined to think that it's mostly a supply issue, because I've seen many 75% and TKL group buys get a ton of demand. 60% is just easier to machine: the top is just a frame and thus doesn't need various holes for ESC, function groups, etc.
They are small in number of keys, not in size. Moving hands too much is not benefitial for typing, so why bother with it? If you need more keys, you can just attatch an extra keyboard, macropad/numberpad or other input-device, reconfigure it with specific settings and waste all the space you want.
Two main reasons for me
1) More space for my mouse when playing games. I prefer a low sens and full sized keyboards are a legitimate problem for this
2) Desk space. If I'm not playing games it's also helpful to have space for a notebook next to my keyboard when working, or my MIDI controller while making music.
1) More space for my mouse when playing games. I prefer a low sens and full sized keyboards are a legitimate problem for this
2) Desk space. If I'm not playing games it's also helpful to have space for a notebook next to my keyboard when working, or my MIDI controller while making music.
Some people like them.
I use a kinesis advantage which is not small.
I use a kinesis advantage which is not small.
The Model M really was the pinnacle of keyboards.
The much older model F was very good - some people tell me better. I believe I've tried one in the past, but it was so long ago that I can't remember. There were a lot of great keyboards back then. Keyboard quality went off a cliff in the mid 1990s.
Someday I want to find a Northgate omni-key from that era which people tell me is the best.
Someday I want to find a Northgate omni-key from that era which people tell me is the best.
it makes zero sense that the space bar is the size that it is.
Over twenty years I've spent too much money trying to get a keyboard that really worked for me... and I finally gave up and I now use the cheapest disposable crap from hole-in-the-wall electrical / electronics shop that I can walk to.
Nearly all the DIY keyboards I've seen are ruthlessly minimalistic and I really would prefer a larger keyboard with more keys, so I don't have to remember lots of meta-key combination short-cuts. I don't think I've memorised all the keyboard short cuts in a given piece of software in a decade... I just don't really use one particular thing enough to make it worthwhile.
That keyboard with the active LED keycaps came out in what... 2006? I expected a regular keyboard with small set of active keycaps for macro keys would have existed by now. Come to think of it, I never used an Apple laptop with that active TouchBar thing either but that doesn't seem to have achieved enduring popularity. but I guess there's no real market for that either.
Nearly all the DIY keyboards I've seen are ruthlessly minimalistic and I really would prefer a larger keyboard with more keys, so I don't have to remember lots of meta-key combination short-cuts. I don't think I've memorised all the keyboard short cuts in a given piece of software in a decade... I just don't really use one particular thing enough to make it worthwhile.
That keyboard with the active LED keycaps came out in what... 2006? I expected a regular keyboard with small set of active keycaps for macro keys would have existed by now. Come to think of it, I never used an Apple laptop with that active TouchBar thing either but that doesn't seem to have achieved enduring popularity. but I guess there's no real market for that either.
You can have two keyboards. A first ergonomic split keyboard for the alpha keys. A second keyboard _only_ for function keys (placed between the split keyboard), an ortholinear planck keyboard with QMK firmware would be ideal. With QMK you can program a single key to send a complex combination like Alt+Shift+F10 (the Run... action in IntelliJ), you get the idea.
Moreover you can make [1] the same key to do the same action in different OSes and programs. No need to remember different shortcuts how to switch tabs in a browser and in a text editor.
[1] https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blob/master/users/miles2...
Moreover you can make [1] the same key to do the same action in different OSes and programs. No need to remember different shortcuts how to switch tabs in a browser and in a text editor.
[1] https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blob/master/users/miles2...
I have sorta tried this.
Razer makes a macro keypad which they call "orbweaver" and it also has a nifty thumb switch which I suppose they intended to be used for the wasd movement in games. Unfortunately, it's designed to be used with the left hand and I mouse with my left hand. I would dearly love a macro keypad exactly like an orbweaver but which was designed for use with the right hand.
So I also now own an unbranded "ambidextrous" macro keypad. Besides the fact that it is great example of how ostensibly ambidextrous devices being really not that great for left handed people, I mostly used it for gaming but as I am not much of a gamer it doesn't get used often.
I also migrated from a Mac desktop to Linux. I had a very nice application for macros on MacOS called ControllerMate but I've yet to find anything remotely similar for Linux.
Razer makes a macro keypad which they call "orbweaver" and it also has a nifty thumb switch which I suppose they intended to be used for the wasd movement in games. Unfortunately, it's designed to be used with the left hand and I mouse with my left hand. I would dearly love a macro keypad exactly like an orbweaver but which was designed for use with the right hand.
So I also now own an unbranded "ambidextrous" macro keypad. Besides the fact that it is great example of how ostensibly ambidextrous devices being really not that great for left handed people, I mostly used it for gaming but as I am not much of a gamer it doesn't get used often.
I also migrated from a Mac desktop to Linux. I had a very nice application for macros on MacOS called ControllerMate but I've yet to find anything remotely similar for Linux.
Just search "104 key" (or however big you want) along with whatever you're looking for to weed out smaller keyboards.
I've got a "WASD v3" keyboard which is a full keyboard with numberpad, like you I can't stand low key count keyboards. You can choose the color, switch type, key color/images, and program macros/layouts stored in the firmware. No LED displays if that's what you want though. The nice thing about this option vs a DIY is you order it, it arrives. I.e. you're buying a customized keyboard not a customized keyboard building experience. There are plenty like this out there, you just have to specify that's what you want when searching.
I've got a "WASD v3" keyboard which is a full keyboard with numberpad, like you I can't stand low key count keyboards. You can choose the color, switch type, key color/images, and program macros/layouts stored in the firmware. No LED displays if that's what you want though. The nice thing about this option vs a DIY is you order it, it arrives. I.e. you're buying a customized keyboard not a customized keyboard building experience. There are plenty like this out there, you just have to specify that's what you want when searching.
96 key. You're welcome.
Sounds like you're just after a 80% keyboard or bigger, no? Plenty out there with all benefits of going premium/mechanical. Search for "TKL mechanical keyboard" and you'll maybe find what you're looking for. It's everything except the number pad.
Why don't they call it open source hardware? All the parts appear to comply with the OSHWA standard. This product could be certified[0] fairly quickly.
[0] https://certification.oshwa.org/
[0] https://certification.oshwa.org/
Just to be clear, here - system76 launched a keyboard using previously existing, widely used open source keyboard firmware.
Imagine the criticism they'd have faced if they'd used anything other than QMK. Their use and presumed future support is a good thing.
They were criticizing the title for not being clear, not System76.
I'd also be fine with Kaleidoscope.
> Imagine the criticism they'd have faced if they'd used anything other than QMK.
You're making it sound like reinventing the wheel to come up with a higher cost and lower quality offering is something to be proud about.
You're making it sound like reinventing the wheel to come up with a higher cost and lower quality offering is something to be proud about.
They also sell computers with open firmware running open source operating systems. I sense a connection.
Why the staggered layout? I'd kill for a laptop with a matrix key disposition (called "ortholinear" in some circles).
Thank you so much for sharing that. I even have the T470s & T460s to make this dream come true. 2021 goal set.
This is f*cking amazing!
Waow! Nice job there!
That is AWESOME.
Yeah, this one keeps surprising me. It's not like moving to aligned rows would be a huge transition like e.g. moving to Colemak. We could just make the keyboard like that and we'll be done with the transition in 40 or so years.
(Of course I know many reasons why that's not happening. I'm just frustrated by the staggerphilia all around.)
(Of course I know many reasons why that's not happening. I'm just frustrated by the staggerphilia all around.)
Why would anyone want ortolinear layout in non-split keyboards? Do you sit with your elbows scrunched up in front of your body?
why would you want staggered non-split keyboards?
Because your arm is at an angle to the rows of the keys (with a non-split keyboard), so when you extend a finger, it doesn't go straight up. With staggered keys, you can reach the key on a row up by only extending your finger (i.e, moving it in line with the direction of your underarm), without having to move any other fingers aside.
This argument may justify that staggered keys are better for one hand and much worse for the other hand. Your hands are symmetric, why would you want an asymmetric keyboard (split or not)?
How do you mean? For both the left and right hand, you extend the fingers, pretty much symmetrically. It's not perfectly straight depending on how the staggering is done, but straight up is worse than all the alternatives.
This is simply not true.
https://youtu.be/Ho_CFfdsmc8
With ortholinear this argument holds more without actually twisting your wrists.
With ortholinear this argument holds more without actually twisting your wrists.
Yes, ortholinear laptop keyboard would be the dream! I doubt it's ever going to happen, though.
They just need to make a laptop with easily swappable pcb of standard size.
The only standard (more like pseudo-standard) I know of are the DIY 60% layouts. Those have defined mounting points and a lot of PCBs and cases are interchangeable. But no ortholinear layout fits these OOTB because the mounting points interfere with the changed switch positions. Additionally, I (and presumably the majority of users) don't want a mechanical keyboard in my Laptop, I want a thin chiclet-style keyboard, and there are zero standards regarding those and producing an ortholinear replacement in small quantities would be quite costly.
I already have more staggered keyboards than I can use from 60% to full size. Not much incentive to buy more unless you are Chryosan22 and need all the keyboards. But I don't have an ortho. I am curious to try one but I know from experience something like a plank would be too limited. I don't mind giving up the keypad but I like 6 rows and nav keys. I might be more likely to buy an ortho variant just for something different.
> I like 6 rows and nav keys.
This has nothing to do with being staggered or not. I use a typematrix 2030 and it has function keys, arrows, and everything, in a split and matricial layout.
This has nothing to do with being staggered or not. I use a typematrix 2030 and it has function keys, arrows, and everything, in a split and matricial layout.
Ideally I would be looking for an affordable and customisable mechanical with sockets and open firmware that is a matrix rather than a specialised ergo/split.
Most "enthusiast" ortho mechanicals seem to be smaller like the plank and appeal to the people who like layers. I know I don't enjoy lots of layer shifting with smaller keyboards.
I have been tempted to build something like an XD75 which is 75 ortho keys in a 60% size. I have also been considering doing a hand wire. More for the fun of making stuff than any necessity.
There are bigger orthos aimed at point of sale and ergo users but their features are a bit different.
Most "enthusiast" ortho mechanicals seem to be smaller like the plank and appeal to the people who like layers. I know I don't enjoy lots of layer shifting with smaller keyboards.
I have been tempted to build something like an XD75 which is 75 ortho keys in a 60% size. I have also been considering doing a hand wire. More for the fun of making stuff than any necessity.
There are bigger orthos aimed at point of sale and ergo users but their features are a bit different.
I can vouch for the XD75; the version where you simply plug-in the switches is really straightforward to build. I'm still using the typematrix because my switches for the XD75 are too bulky and noisy, but may replace them in the future. Configuring the layout with qmx is also straightforward, and you don't need any layers with a large board like the xd75 (I only have one for the "firmware upload" combo).
Have you seen that X-Bows is pre-selling their 3rd generation, now programmable with QMK?
- ortho
- angled but not split
- replaceable MX-style switches
- 86 keys
- lights, no whistles
- ortho
- angled but not split
- replaceable MX-style switches
- 86 keys
- lights, no whistles
There's definitely room for both types of keyboard. For me, I have tried ortholinear, but I just can't handle it. Or more specifically - I use too many keyboards during the day, and switching one of them to a linear layout and not the rest is a nightmare. Switching them all would be expensive... maybe one day. But I don't feel like you get enough benefit to justify it.
No ergonomics, as usual: problems are carefully passed on like heirlooms. The only good thing physically is that the mouse won't be pushed away by the numpad.
Thanks, you just gave me a reason why some peope may not like numpads on their keyboards. As a left-handed person I never realised that the numpad is where you would want to have your mouse :D
I'm a rightie, but I periodically move the mouse to the other side, partly to avoid too much RSI and partly exactly because the numpad was in the way—especially with MS' ‘Natural 4000’ keyboard that takes half the desk. With the ‘Sculpt’ keyboard I finally learned how much space there is.
Combined with the fact that the numpad for me is pretty much completely useless outside of entering one-time codes for online purchases and Steam login—I'm quite grateful that it's a separate unit on Sculpt.
That's all despite the fact that I'm a programmer and supposed to love the digits: purportedly that's how they ended up in ‘lowercase’ on the second-top row of the keyboard, i.e. pressed without the shift key (and Apple managed to stick dot and comma in the upper register on that row, in my language's layout). I actually tried to change the mapping so that the symbols are entered without shift, but somehow that breaks a lot of muscle memory of which I didn't even know.
I'm vaguely curious about one setup that seemingly would be especially ergonomic: an Advantage keyboard with a trackpad in the middle. There's almost exactly enough space for a trackpad there, and I've seen kludgey setups that slap a trackpad on an Advantage. A less-ideal split keyboard like Freestyle would probably work too. Meanwhile, semi-portable keyboards like Microsoft's ‘All-In-One’ still go the tired staggered flat-board path and attach a trackpad at the end, despite the opportunity.
Combined with the fact that the numpad for me is pretty much completely useless outside of entering one-time codes for online purchases and Steam login—I'm quite grateful that it's a separate unit on Sculpt.
That's all despite the fact that I'm a programmer and supposed to love the digits: purportedly that's how they ended up in ‘lowercase’ on the second-top row of the keyboard, i.e. pressed without the shift key (and Apple managed to stick dot and comma in the upper register on that row, in my language's layout). I actually tried to change the mapping so that the symbols are entered without shift, but somehow that breaks a lot of muscle memory of which I didn't even know.
I'm vaguely curious about one setup that seemingly would be especially ergonomic: an Advantage keyboard with a trackpad in the middle. There's almost exactly enough space for a trackpad there, and I've seen kludgey setups that slap a trackpad on an Advantage. A less-ideal split keyboard like Freestyle would probably work too. Meanwhile, semi-portable keyboards like Microsoft's ‘All-In-One’ still go the tired staggered flat-board path and attach a trackpad at the end, despite the opportunity.
I am the only one that is very ill-at-ease with that PCB [1]? The routing seems.. off? No straight trace, irregular component placement. Its the kind of work where seemingly "superficial" concern like that are in fact quite usefull, a clean PCB makes it easier to find issues and do repairs.
[1]:https://github.com/system76/launch/blob/master/pcb/launch-pc...
[1]:https://github.com/system76/launch/blob/master/pcb/launch-pc...
Looks like it was made with TopoR autorouter.
https://www.eremex.com/products/topor/
https://www.eremex.com/products/topor/
Looks beautiful to me. Rectilinear tracks were an artifact of early layout software; there's no electrical need for them.
I find it visually easier to trace tracks that aren't perfectly parallel, too. This is splendid in that regard, pairs are obviously pairs, but their spacing to other pairs is variable (which also suggests slow transitions in impedance rather than step-changes; another benefit).
If anything, this looks like it moves a lot of components out into their own space, where they won't be shadowed by others in case of rework. Looks great to me.
I find it visually easier to trace tracks that aren't perfectly parallel, too. This is splendid in that regard, pairs are obviously pairs, but their spacing to other pairs is variable (which also suggests slow transitions in impedance rather than step-changes; another benefit).
If anything, this looks like it moves a lot of components out into their own space, where they won't be shadowed by others in case of rework. Looks great to me.
Yeah, this PCB is... horrible.
So cool that they're using the QMK firmware and open hardware. They also include a split space-bar, taking one of your digits "off the bench" :) [1] I made a crazy ergonomic keyboard, but I think the most useful things in practice are to have a keyboard be programmable and to have multiple keys for the thumbs to use.
Backspace is one of the top three most used keys for common computer usage, putting it on the thumb is a huge win over the corner to be used with the pinky (or a Shift, Control, Enter, etc.). The layout is otherwise fairly conservative with dedicated function keys, arrow keys, and navigation keys (albeit in a non-standard cluster).
[1] see key layout and mapping: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/8ec5e9026d616e...
Backspace is one of the top three most used keys for common computer usage, putting it on the thumb is a huge win over the corner to be used with the pinky (or a Shift, Control, Enter, etc.). The layout is otherwise fairly conservative with dedicated function keys, arrow keys, and navigation keys (albeit in a non-standard cluster).
[1] see key layout and mapping: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/8ec5e9026d616e...
> Backspace is one of the top three most used keys for common computer usage
Where did you get this from? I'm trying to come up with a good layout for my Dactyl-Manuform, so it would be very helpful to know which keys are the most commonly used.
Where did you get this from? I'm trying to come up with a good layout for my Dactyl-Manuform, so it would be very helpful to know which keys are the most commonly used.
I was in the same situation for designing my layout too. Most key frequency analyses only look at text corpora. Actual key logging of typical computer usage seems harder to come by.
This is a post[1] from a fella who ran a key logger for a while. He found the top three most keys for his usage were Space, Backspace, and E. There are probably better datasets out there because it doesn't break things down, but I suspect Backspace is almost always up there.
For my layout, I have Enter and Space on the two home thumb keys and Shift and Backspace on the next outer keys. You can find my layout here[2] for more ideas if you're interested. It does however use palm keys that wouldn't be available on a DM.
[1] https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2014/11/12/keyboard-key-frequenc... [2] http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/8105b7f97f89fa...
This is a post[1] from a fella who ran a key logger for a while. He found the top three most keys for his usage were Space, Backspace, and E. There are probably better datasets out there because it doesn't break things down, but I suspect Backspace is almost always up there.
For my layout, I have Enter and Space on the two home thumb keys and Shift and Backspace on the next outer keys. You can find my layout here[2] for more ideas if you're interested. It does however use palm keys that wouldn't be available on a DM.
[1] https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2014/11/12/keyboard-key-frequenc... [2] http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/8105b7f97f89fa...
I’d be much more excited if they released a laptop variant with ortholinear keys or close to it if they decide to stagger the columns a bit.
... and a split space bar and QMK!
The offer is pretty good for external keyboard enthusiasts. One can buy a controller, hand wire switches to it and scatter them over a sphere, with custom celestial keycaps for a hundred dollars. On laptop though, I have not seen much more than retrofitting old Lenovo keyboards on newer generations, with some pretty fragile firmware patches.
The offer is pretty good for external keyboard enthusiasts. One can buy a controller, hand wire switches to it and scatter them over a sphere, with custom celestial keycaps for a hundred dollars. On laptop though, I have not seen much more than retrofitting old Lenovo keyboards on newer generations, with some pretty fragile firmware patches.
This is great, I hope more companies were like system76. It's seems to me they are starting to produce their own hardware, but into the open.
If I'm allowed to dream, they could be an open Mac some day. We sell you this optimized hardware and software, but you own it, do whatever you want.
If I'm allowed to dream, they could be an open Mac some day. We sell you this optimized hardware and software, but you own it, do whatever you want.
Every time I read about people's obsessions with keyboards I feel like an outsider. Am I weird? I've been using the same Logitech K120 that costs around 10€/$10, my muscle memory is important.
The keys are in the usual places instead of multi-function keys, arrow keys are separated, it has a numpad... I'd like to have dedicated media keys, but that's the only thing I'd change. I keep buying it and have spare ones just in case.
The keys are in the usual places instead of multi-function keys, arrow keys are separated, it has a numpad... I'd like to have dedicated media keys, but that's the only thing I'd change. I keep buying it and have spare ones just in case.
> Every time I read about people's obsessions with keyboards I feel like an outsider. Am I weird?
As soon as you start digging in any type of hobby you'll find people going crazy about things you will not understand at all. From audiophiles, to barbecue enthusiasts, knife collectors, wood workers, if you go deep enough in the rabbit hole you'll feel like an alien
I think some personalities are just drawn to these kind of things. They want "the best" and enter an interminable quest or discussing, comparing, building, fighting with other people about "what's the best", &c. I know because I'm part of it in some aspects of my life
As soon as you start digging in any type of hobby you'll find people going crazy about things you will not understand at all. From audiophiles, to barbecue enthusiasts, knife collectors, wood workers, if you go deep enough in the rabbit hole you'll feel like an alien
I think some personalities are just drawn to these kind of things. They want "the best" and enter an interminable quest or discussing, comparing, building, fighting with other people about "what's the best", &c. I know because I'm part of it in some aspects of my life
I used to love apple desktop keyboards.
Then they went to the flat aluminum ones and I couldn't feel the keys. The concave keys were traded in for flat keys and I could no longer center my fingers and feel the edges of the keys.
So I hunted around and tried a bunch of keyboards. mechanical, mechanical knockoffs, clicky, smooth.
I ended up with a topre realforce rgb. Extremely solid keys. Very smooth throw, and adjustable activation point.
The other mechanical keys like cherry don't feel as solid. They wiggle side to side. The topre has a solid base and a cylindrical to guide the keys as they depress.
I didn't want rgb, but in the end I set it to single color dim and I can find the keys in a dark room, which is great.
Later I went back and tried my old apple keyboard and gah it felt like typing on bubble wrap. But I would not have known and I would have been happy if apple didn't change things around.
Then they went to the flat aluminum ones and I couldn't feel the keys. The concave keys were traded in for flat keys and I could no longer center my fingers and feel the edges of the keys.
So I hunted around and tried a bunch of keyboards. mechanical, mechanical knockoffs, clicky, smooth.
I ended up with a topre realforce rgb. Extremely solid keys. Very smooth throw, and adjustable activation point.
The other mechanical keys like cherry don't feel as solid. They wiggle side to side. The topre has a solid base and a cylindrical to guide the keys as they depress.
I didn't want rgb, but in the end I set it to single color dim and I can find the keys in a dark room, which is great.
Later I went back and tried my old apple keyboard and gah it felt like typing on bubble wrap. But I would not have known and I would have been happy if apple didn't change things around.
The way I view it is muscle memory is important because you use the tool so frequently. For the same reason, continuous minor improvements can add up quickly.
People definitely go overboard but I think it’s worth it to experiment a little bit and see if you can gradually optimize some things you do a lot. I’m a big fan of the Ergodox keyboards and having a decent number of layers. For example, holding W turns my right hand into a window manager. Holding F turns my right hand into an app switch (H = Chrome, J = IntelliJ etc). All of this is on/near the home row so it’s minimally straining.
Learning curves on new keyboards are awful though!
People definitely go overboard but I think it’s worth it to experiment a little bit and see if you can gradually optimize some things you do a lot. I’m a big fan of the Ergodox keyboards and having a decent number of layers. For example, holding W turns my right hand into a window manager. Holding F turns my right hand into an app switch (H = Chrome, J = IntelliJ etc). All of this is on/near the home row so it’s minimally straining.
Learning curves on new keyboards are awful though!
No you are not weird, you are the standard, and that's why you are likely to have no difficulties to get your favorite keyboard at comfortable price in the foreseeable future.
The weird ones are us, the custom mechanical keyboard enthusiasts, and because we are niche and have particular needs we pay much more and have much more to discuss.
The weird ones are us, the custom mechanical keyboard enthusiasts, and because we are niche and have particular needs we pay much more and have much more to discuss.
Oh thank you, I thought I was the only one. I'm using the same Focus 6000 since 1992-ish.
Recently I've been trying to introduce a Cherry G86-series SPOS keyboard, since it has a giant pile of relegendable/remappable keys that I want to use for CAD stuff. I've gotten all the remapping done and that works well enough, but just plain typing on the QWERTY portion is a PITA. Small r-shift key has me hunting every time, I think I'm gonna have to glue sandpaper to it or something. The Esc key is on the wrong row and it throws me off every time, etc. Muscle memory is huuuuuuge.
Recently I've been trying to introduce a Cherry G86-series SPOS keyboard, since it has a giant pile of relegendable/remappable keys that I want to use for CAD stuff. I've gotten all the remapping done and that works well enough, but just plain typing on the QWERTY portion is a PITA. Small r-shift key has me hunting every time, I think I'm gonna have to glue sandpaper to it or something. The Esc key is on the wrong row and it throws me off every time, etc. Muscle memory is huuuuuuge.
Unsure, but if it's the layouts you hate, there are plenty of great standard full size layout keyboards with mechanical keys. Of course, mechanical keys may not be for everyone, but I love them. I'd say check out my current favorite keyboard, the MK Typist: https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_det...
I'm also fond of the Kailh BOX White switches, but they aren't for everyone.
I'm also fond of the Kailh BOX White switches, but they aren't for everyone.
I do know what you mean - there's a standard keyboard layout, it works well, there are plenty of keyboards using it. But then, I do care about the action of my keys - it's a small detail but I spend all day in front of a keyboard - and so I have a >£100 Das Keyboard. It's all a question of degrees.
Maybe also there's a component of 'expression of self'. We are individuals with individual personalities. As coders our keyboard is important so it's a more productive medium than most to express our individual tastes.
Maybe also there's a component of 'expression of self'. We are individuals with individual personalities. As coders our keyboard is important so it's a more productive medium than most to express our individual tastes.
It's a tool you put many hours of use into. Every professional in every area is like that about their tools.
Lucky you to have set your preference on a cheap keyboard. I use a Logitech MX Keys everywhere I can. It costs ten times as much, though.
Lucky you to have set your preference on a cheap keyboard. I use a Logitech MX Keys everywhere I can. It costs ten times as much, though.
i've been keeping an eye for this launch. System76 is taking an approach of tiling and gnome combination for their distro with the primary goal of making it more keyboard friendly for developers. A keyboard launch is basically going in that direction. I wonder if their laptops will also take this direction but personally i would like to see a full i3 spin (like fedora) instead because in my experience on an intel pc with intel graphics that too the gnome UI is still buggy. I feel like there is too much going on and if developers are really the focus then adding gnome bloat isn't going to solve anything. i love popOS but i can't stand gnome ...
The important question is: does it come with an ISO layout?
Seems like they placed the controller right under where the left shift button is on ISO layout, so no, not without some significant redesign.
No tenkey sadly. I know a lot of keyboard enthusiasts don't like tenkeys, but I would have a hard time giving that up. Although, it would be nice to have the tenkey on the left so I don't have to move my hand over it to get to the mouse.
I have a separate tenkey placed on the left side of my keyboard. Works pretty well for me.
This is great but where do you buy keycaps? Do you know why you virtually cannot find any flat key caps anywhere? Even the Kailh launched their v2 low profile keycap, but good luck finding any keycaps. Sure you can attach regular caps with the cherry mount, but if you want to build a flat keyboard, it's just not possible :(
Only way so far I found is to chase people who do DIY molds or pay $$$ for a custom run (which you'll end up with a bathtub of keycaps and an empty wallet). Why nobody is doing these?
A much worse problem with this keyboard is that you almost cannot buy even regular MX-compatible keycaps for it, because the system76 people chose a really nonstandard physical layout. 1.5U Caps Lock, 1.5U Delete in the function key row, 1.5U Backspace in the number row, 1U backslash in the QWERTY row, 1.5U Enter in the ASDF row — these keycaps don't exist in most sets, except in some “40%” or ”ergo” addon kits (and even there you may not get the exact legend match for some of them, although for Caps Lock that may be a feature). 1.5U Shift is also really rare. So if you don't like the stock keycaps (which have the uniform XDA profile, and some people just don't like it), replacing them would be hard and/or expensive.
AliExpress has a wide selection.
Do you have links? I have literally spent hours there and couldn't find any flat keycap except for older Kailh mount. There is nothing to match Kailh v2 / Cherry MX mount. Only found a company on Alibaba that could make me some, but I can't afford it. I considered 3d printing old Kailh to Cherry MX adapter, but that won't be pretty :(
I am currently compatible with two kinds of keyboards.
- ThinkPad 7-row laptop ANSI keyboard (like in T420)
- 87 keys ANSI keyboard (does not have to be mechanical) [1]
All other keyboard layouts literally does not exist for me - not matter how 'hackable' or 'open source' or configurable they are ...
[1] https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/images/products/large_9...
- ThinkPad 7-row laptop ANSI keyboard (like in T420)
- 87 keys ANSI keyboard (does not have to be mechanical) [1]
All other keyboard layouts literally does not exist for me - not matter how 'hackable' or 'open source' or configurable they are ...
[1] https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/images/products/large_9...
Just wanted to say that you're not alone. I'm used to the ISO layout, but that's a minor difference.
I'm really glad they did the ThinkPad 25, and I really don't know what I'm going to do when that thing becomes too old to be usable. :-(
I'm really glad they did the ThinkPad 25, and I really don't know what I'm going to do when that thing becomes too old to be usable. :-(
I wonder when ThinkPad 25 will start to show on EBAY or other places in normal prices ... currently its almost the same as for new one ...
I sincerely hope I won't have to find out the answer to that. :-)
Anyway, for anyone thinking of getting one, it's worth checking out this as well: https://www.xyte.ch/shop/t25-frankenpad-kit/ and https://www.xyte.ch/thinkpads/t25-frankenpad/
Anyway, for anyone thinking of getting one, it's worth checking out this as well: https://www.xyte.ch/shop/t25-frankenpad-kit/ and https://www.xyte.ch/thinkpads/t25-frankenpad/
Thank You for showing me these ... maybe I will be forced to get FrankenPad instead :)
Cheers.
Cheers.
Can someone tell me what this brings to the table? Isn’t there already a gazillion keyboards like this and already open source stuff if anyone want to build a keyboard like this?
Made in the USA, which means no questionable labor practices compared to China. This might or might not matter to you.
It is also another step in System 76s long run to produce their own laptop in house. Today they just put their label on an off the shelf laptop (the advantage of buying from them is they are a large enough customer that they can demand linux compatible parts, while if you buy the same laptop you might discovered they substituted some incompatible part for something). However making their own laptops from scratch gives them flexibility to make them with the specs linux users say they want. (it remains to be seen if linux users will actually buy what they say they want)
It is also another step in System 76s long run to produce their own laptop in house. Today they just put their label on an off the shelf laptop (the advantage of buying from them is they are a large enough customer that they can demand linux compatible parts, while if you buy the same laptop you might discovered they substituted some incompatible part for something). However making their own laptops from scratch gives them flexibility to make them with the specs linux users say they want. (it remains to be seen if linux users will actually buy what they say they want)
I rock a custom QMK keymap that only needs 34 keys [0], so I was expecting not to be impressed by this board when I saw the prototype [1], but highlights on this repo look quite good actually. Here's the ones that stand out to me:
- detachable lift bar
- swappable switches
- integrated dock
- per-key RGB
- QMK
- open source design
I'm also a fan of two choices made with the layout. First, the split spacebars - it's better to give each thumb it's own job. Second, the minimization of modifier keys requiring stabilizers, because smooth consistent stabilizers are hard to get right.
[0] https://github.com/1MachineElf/qmk_firmware/tree/_sb4dv_refa... [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2020/03/18/linux...
- detachable lift bar
- swappable switches
- integrated dock
- per-key RGB
- QMK
- open source design
I'm also a fan of two choices made with the layout. First, the split spacebars - it's better to give each thumb it's own job. Second, the minimization of modifier keys requiring stabilizers, because smooth consistent stabilizers are hard to get right.
[0] https://github.com/1MachineElf/qmk_firmware/tree/_sb4dv_refa... [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2020/03/18/linux...
Is there any eMMC or other non-volatile storage on the PCB? I tried looking through the PCB files but I don't have KiCad.
I've always wanted a keyboard with a keylogger inside the keyboard itself. That way it doesn't matter which OS or computer it is attached to, every keystroke is secretly logged inside the keyboard (to be dumped at a later time for examination)
Edit: looks like the microcontroller is an Atmel chip [0] which has either 16/32 KB of flash depending on which one. I'm not sure which the system76 keyboard uses. I'm assuming part of that flash is for the firmware itself, but maybe there is extra room for logs as well?
[0] https://github.com/system76/launch/blob/master/pcb/docs/Atme...
I've always wanted a keyboard with a keylogger inside the keyboard itself. That way it doesn't matter which OS or computer it is attached to, every keystroke is secretly logged inside the keyboard (to be dumped at a later time for examination)
Edit: looks like the microcontroller is an Atmel chip [0] which has either 16/32 KB of flash depending on which one. I'm not sure which the system76 keyboard uses. I'm assuming part of that flash is for the firmware itself, but maybe there is extra room for logs as well?
[0] https://github.com/system76/launch/blob/master/pcb/docs/Atme...
What use would such a keylogger have, beyond general curiosity about "which words do i type most"?
Well it represents the truth of everything typed on the keyboard, which is useful on shared PCs. Browser histories can be cleared, for example, but the keylogger will still contain every keystroke you typed before covering your tracks.
Plus, it can be used for nefarious purposes to harvest credentials, which is probably illegal most of the time, but might be useful for penetration testing and such.
Plus, it can be used for nefarious purposes to harvest credentials, which is probably illegal most of the time, but might be useful for penetration testing and such.
So many words about the keyboard but nothing about the microcontroller. I wonder what they will use?
You can see it in the source:
https://github.com/system76/launch/blob/master/pcb/launch-bo...
I think it is a ATmega32U4-MU
https://github.com/system76/launch/blob/master/pcb/launch-bo...
I think it is a ATmega32U4-MU
What security features are in place to prevent unauthorized replacement of firmware by someone other than the keyboard owner?
Seems to me something like this you'd want to be able to blow a pubkey into once when you buy it, and have it never accept unsigned firmware or new keys.
Seems to me something like this you'd want to be able to blow a pubkey into once when you buy it, and have it never accept unsigned firmware or new keys.
I've seen the customisable keyboard firmware a few times now. Could someone explain what's the benefit over just setting a keymap instead? If I can switch to anything including Dvorak already in the OS, why would I want to do that at firmware layer?
A significant benefit that custom keyboard firmware allows is reduced finger movement. Though mostly this is more sophisticated than just changing between qwerty/dvorak.
e.g. pressing a shortcut like "Ctrl + b" most likely involves stretching your pinky finger on a standard keyboard. One feature custom keyboards often have is dual-use keys; keys which act the same if tapped, but have a different function if held. So e.g. tapping 'f' outputs 'f', holding 'f' is the same as holding 'shift'. With that technique, you can put Shift, Ctrl, GUI, Alt all on the home row.
Custom firmware can also support chords; e.g. pressing 'cv' at the same time could be a chord to switch to the previous virtual desktop.
Custom firmware also allows layers (similar to how some laptops have a 'numpad' in the middle of the keyboard which can be used if Fn is held). This allows more flexibility, at the cost of more complexity.
Much of this could be done with e.g. kmonad, but it's nice to have it on the keyboard itself.
e.g. pressing a shortcut like "Ctrl + b" most likely involves stretching your pinky finger on a standard keyboard. One feature custom keyboards often have is dual-use keys; keys which act the same if tapped, but have a different function if held. So e.g. tapping 'f' outputs 'f', holding 'f' is the same as holding 'shift'. With that technique, you can put Shift, Ctrl, GUI, Alt all on the home row.
Custom firmware can also support chords; e.g. pressing 'cv' at the same time could be a chord to switch to the previous virtual desktop.
Custom firmware also allows layers (similar to how some laptops have a 'numpad' in the middle of the keyboard which can be used if Fn is held). This allows more flexibility, at the cost of more complexity.
Much of this could be done with e.g. kmonad, but it's nice to have it on the keyboard itself.
[deleted]
I rebind Caps Lock on every machine I use to make it control and basically never use the control key anymore. I find it makes common left-hand key combination much more ergonomic.
I still can't understand how anyone doesn't remap Caps Lock. That's prime modifier real estate and letting it remain the shouting grandpa key is a travesty.
[deleted]
[deleted]
Easily.
All my modifier keys are on the home row. E.g. F is Shift until I release it, or F after I release it. My pinkies are not overburdened, and I'm an Emacs user.
Then, layers. I don't need to move my hand to the numpad; I press a modifier with my left hand, and the numpad is instantly under my right hand. Same with shifted symbols like @ or &; I can have them right under my left hand, without reaching far. Same for media control keys.
QMK also emulates a mouse, so I can move the mouse cursor, click, scroll with keys, pressing another modifier.
Also you can assign macros to keys. I have little use for it, but people playing games, or people using certain unergonomic software, appreciate it a lot.
This all is, of course, fully configurable.
All my modifier keys are on the home row. E.g. F is Shift until I release it, or F after I release it. My pinkies are not overburdened, and I'm an Emacs user.
Then, layers. I don't need to move my hand to the numpad; I press a modifier with my left hand, and the numpad is instantly under my right hand. Same with shifted symbols like @ or &; I can have them right under my left hand, without reaching far. Same for media control keys.
QMK also emulates a mouse, so I can move the mouse cursor, click, scroll with keys, pressing another modifier.
Also you can assign macros to keys. I have little use for it, but people playing games, or people using certain unergonomic software, appreciate it a lot.
This all is, of course, fully configurable.
Another cool reason: This board uses QMK firmware, which also has built-in support for MIDI, including a sequencer. So, I can have a layer that sends midi cc, notes on/off, program changes, clock, etc.
If I'm working in a DAW such as Pro Tools or Logic, I can do all sorts of things such as program keys to play full chords or chord progressions. Maybe I want to press some key combo to start/stop my external sequencer, or arm/disarm a synth to improvise live with a looper, but not record into the loop.
I'm sure the possibilities are endless, but having the flexibility to tinker and build your own workflow is super neat.
If I'm working in a DAW such as Pro Tools or Logic, I can do all sorts of things such as program keys to play full chords or chord progressions. Maybe I want to press some key combo to start/stop my external sequencer, or arm/disarm a synth to improvise live with a looper, but not record into the loop.
I'm sure the possibilities are endless, but having the flexibility to tinker and build your own workflow is super neat.
So that it works as you expect at the boot loader menu, and in the bios settings ;-)
Yep, especially when the downsides are next to nothing, why not.
Another advantage is that the keymapping can get saved onto the keyboard itself.
Plug your keyboard into a new computer and the keymapping stays the same.
Plug your keyboard into a new computer and the keymapping stays the same.
You can add all kinds of modes, like a built-in vim mode for your keyboard. I have programmed three layers, theoretically pretty optimized for text editing.
That said, I have forgotten what the third layer shortcuts are, because I never actually used them after day 1.
That said, I have forgotten what the third layer shortcuts are, because I never actually used them after day 1.
One possible reason is that it would continue being Dvorak if you moved it to a new computer.
But you can easily switch the other computer to Dvorak as well. Meanwhile anyone else trying to type on your keyboard cannot temporarily reverse to a common layout.
But you can do that by changing the default layer.
[0] !https://beta.docs.qmk.fm/using-qmk/software-features/feature...
[0] !https://beta.docs.qmk.fm/using-qmk/software-features/feature...
It’s a bit of a pain sometimes though, for example, when installing a new OS (not all offer all key maps during install), or when you’re not sure if an interviewer will ask you to type on a laptop that you didn’t bring, or if you have a mildly different layout that you prefer that isn’t in the default install of the various OSs
Why does a keyboard need source code? It's just a bunch of addressable switches.
A PC-style keyboard isn't just an array of addressable switches. There's always been a microcontroller scanning the switches, disambiguating corner-case signals, and packaging it all into USB.
Probably the first driver for custom firmware is custom layouts.
Some people like some fairly exotic layouts. For example, a lot of smaller keyboards rely on multiple "layers" hidden behind modifier or toggle keys. Or you may just want a few programmable macros. For example, I have the incantations for my KVM switch mapped to a few uncommon key combinations.
If you're moving between different OS's or even machines, it might make more sense to bake all the smarts into the keyboard rather than to try to get several different software installs to behave consistently.
There are also a lot of gimmicky things you can add with custom features: per-key light effects, little OLED displays with graphics or statistics, faster scan rates.
Probably the first driver for custom firmware is custom layouts.
Some people like some fairly exotic layouts. For example, a lot of smaller keyboards rely on multiple "layers" hidden behind modifier or toggle keys. Or you may just want a few programmable macros. For example, I have the incantations for my KVM switch mapped to a few uncommon key combinations.
If you're moving between different OS's or even machines, it might make more sense to bake all the smarts into the keyboard rather than to try to get several different software installs to behave consistently.
There are also a lot of gimmicky things you can add with custom features: per-key light effects, little OLED displays with graphics or statistics, faster scan rates.
Firmware is code, believe it or not.
You get some true horror stories coming from embedded engineers dabbling in software in this fields, the firmware is probably some of the least tested, verified, and generally visible code in many stacks.
You get some true horror stories coming from embedded engineers dabbling in software in this fields, the firmware is probably some of the least tested, verified, and generally visible code in many stacks.
I mean, even "regular" keyboards have source code these days, it's just usually closed and flashed to the board permanently. The days of keyboards literally being addressable switches ended decades ago.
But the reason why you'd want user programmable keyboards is the ability to change which keys do what. My keyboard has four different layouts ("layers") that have totally different keymappings. I use them for daily work, work macros, and video gaming.
But the reason why you'd want user programmable keyboards is the ability to change which keys do what. My keyboard has four different layouts ("layers") that have totally different keymappings. I use them for daily work, work macros, and video gaming.
Tandy 80 in 1979 and IBM PC a couple years later already used the Intel 8042 controller in their keyboards.
Software for keyboards has a long history. Custom software for keyboards, not as much, but it's a pretty established niche. QMK firmware mentioned in the article is a few years old.
Software for keyboards has a long history. Custom software for keyboards, not as much, but it's a pretty established niche. QMK firmware mentioned in the article is a few years old.
Overlays, function keys, macro keys, fancy responsive RGB light shows, the list goes on.
> Why does a keyboard need source code
Because USB is very complicated. I'm sure you could do it 100% with hardware, but then your keyboard's source code will be Verilog since you would need an ASIC
Because USB is very complicated. I'm sure you could do it 100% with hardware, but then your keyboard's source code will be Verilog since you would need an ASIC
To change the function of the fn keys. The keyboard is not just a dumb input, when you hold fn the board sends different codes for the same keys. This means you can’t easily move where the volume function keys are for example.
The HID protocol does not just implement it as addressable switches. In addition there's a question of which address each switch has.
Because it's the 21st century and every piece of hardware has some software in it... from your CPU to your keyboard.
There is more involved if you want USB, not to mention multi-keystroke macros and/or user configurable macros.
Even the dumbest and oldest PS/2 keyboard in your attic had some firmware blob on it. This is preferable.
I've basically given up on finding a mechanical keyboard since only Matias actually makes any with a Mac keyboard layout and finding a good/available 100% PCB seems nigh-on impossible.
“Designed for Mac
Unlike other keyboards on the market claiming to be Mac-friendly, Das Keyboard Professional for Mac is specifically designed for maximum compatibility. Give your Mac some love with the best mechanical keyboard on the planet.”
https://www.daskeyboard.com/model-s-professional-for-mac/
Unlike other keyboards on the market claiming to be Mac-friendly, Das Keyboard Professional for Mac is specifically designed for maximum compatibility. Give your Mac some love with the best mechanical keyboard on the planet.”
https://www.daskeyboard.com/model-s-professional-for-mac/
>Designed for Mac
This means "we changed the keycaps and remapped two keys" in the mechanical keyboard world. Trust me, this isn't my first time looking through these. There's nothing "designed for Mac" about that. Just look at the non-Mac Model S Professional. They look literally the same except for the keycaps.
This means "we changed the keycaps and remapped two keys" in the mechanical keyboard world. Trust me, this isn't my first time looking through these. There's nothing "designed for Mac" about that. Just look at the non-Mac Model S Professional. They look literally the same except for the keycaps.
What's the problem with that? Assuming it works as intended.
Allow this 60-second video to express my feelings about these "Mac" keyboards: https://youtu.be/7haqnQvrYfI
Matias makes probably the nicest feeling switches of any modern company, though. They seems to have some QA problems though.
Maybe one day I'll break down and just order the Tactile Pro. I've literally never been able to find another mechanical keyboard with an actual honest Mac layout.
Is it the Mac keys you want? I just replaced my manually silenced cherry MX brown keyboard with a rubber some from BTC. They are probably the snappiest rubber domes you can find, and they are MX mount so you can order a Mac keycap set.
Total cost for that is bound to be something like 50 bucks, mostly keycaps. A BTC 5100-series board is easy to find for under 20 bucks.
Total cost for that is bound to be something like 50 bucks, mostly keycaps. A BTC 5100-series board is easy to find for under 20 bucks.
>Is it the Mac keys you want?
No.
I don't really understand that whenever I bring up a "Mac layout mechanical keyboard", everyone starts talking about keycaps.
No.
I don't really understand that whenever I bring up a "Mac layout mechanical keyboard", everyone starts talking about keycaps.
Because apart from the keycaps, everything is configurable in the OS and isn't a feature of whatever keyboard you are using? Or is there a requirement I am not aware of?
I implore you to Google what the full-size Apple keyboard looks like and then look at what your average mechanical keyboard looks like. If nothing else helps, count the keys.
I'm just trying to help. I didn't think people actually used Mac function keys since apple hides most of them under the function layer.
If the extra keys are necessary, why not just get a macro pad? Keyboard-wise a focus FK-9000 will probably cost you less than a Matias board and give you 20 something more keys. No need to treat me like I am a friggin idiot for not guessing your rather fringe needs.
If the extra keys are necessary, why not just get a macro pad? Keyboard-wise a focus FK-9000 will probably cost you less than a Matias board and give you 20 something more keys. No need to treat me like I am a friggin idiot for not guessing your rather fringe needs.
>No need to treat me like I am a friggin idiot for not guessing your rather fringe needs.
No, I'm treating you like an idiot because you come suggesting things to me that you have no idea about. You're still wrong about what a Mac keyboard layout is. It's not just "some extra function keys". There's a very distinct and different layout in which the keys are, which is evident if you just look at one, which is why I'm referring it my needs as "Mac layout" and not "keyboard with some Mac stickers".
If you can't "guess what someone's rather fringe needs" are, then don't make recommendations. If someone is looking for a mechanical keyboard with a Mac layout, don't just suggest a keyboard with some stickers on it just because you don't understand what they want (and then get upset that the person's needs are "rather fringe" just because you have no idea).
This is like the 100th time that this same exact pattern happens. You're not even the first person in this thread to regurgigate what I've seen online for years. I don't know what it is about mechanical keyboards that makes everyone an expert regardless of what they know. If I was looking for a car with room for three child seats, I doubt I'd be showered with random suggestions ("I have a Honda Civic and it's a good car. Get a Honda Civic!").
No, I'm treating you like an idiot because you come suggesting things to me that you have no idea about. You're still wrong about what a Mac keyboard layout is. It's not just "some extra function keys". There's a very distinct and different layout in which the keys are, which is evident if you just look at one, which is why I'm referring it my needs as "Mac layout" and not "keyboard with some Mac stickers".
If you can't "guess what someone's rather fringe needs" are, then don't make recommendations. If someone is looking for a mechanical keyboard with a Mac layout, don't just suggest a keyboard with some stickers on it just because you don't understand what they want (and then get upset that the person's needs are "rather fringe" just because you have no idea).
This is like the 100th time that this same exact pattern happens. You're not even the first person in this thread to regurgigate what I've seen online for years. I don't know what it is about mechanical keyboards that makes everyone an expert regardless of what they know. If I was looking for a car with room for three child seats, I doubt I'd be showered with random suggestions ("I have a Honda Civic and it's a good car. Get a Honda Civic!").
Well, then enlighten me: what is so special about the Mac layout? I am sitting with one magic keyboard and a BTC5140 right now and I can't see any difference apart from 4 extra keys above the numpad.
The biggest difference which basically no mechanical keyboard out there has right, is the bottom row. Full-sized Mac keyboards have a perfectly symmetrical bottom row with just Control, Option and Command.
The Function key has absolutely no place on the bottom row on a full-sized keyboard (and even in a condensed keyboard, it's never in the right place) and should be where the Insert key is on every mechanical keyboard. Some "Mac" keyboards are such lazy hackjobs that they actually include the Insert key. Some are a bit less lazy and stick the Eject button there. Why? Because they're not making a Mac keyboard, they're just switching the keycaps on their generic keyboard (which doesn't stop them from advertising their keyboards as "designed for Mac").
And of course, the top row includes F13~F19 in addition to the eject button.
It can also be argued that a proper Mac keyboard would have pretty much equal width modifier keys on the bottom row. I've seen some keyboards that basically have 1.5x Control and Command keys and 1x Option key, which looks downright perverse on a Mac keyboard. The Matias keyboards, despite being the best one at making a mechanical keyboard with a Mac layout, have it and it looks rather bad.
The Function key has absolutely no place on the bottom row on a full-sized keyboard (and even in a condensed keyboard, it's never in the right place) and should be where the Insert key is on every mechanical keyboard. Some "Mac" keyboards are such lazy hackjobs that they actually include the Insert key. Some are a bit less lazy and stick the Eject button there. Why? Because they're not making a Mac keyboard, they're just switching the keycaps on their generic keyboard (which doesn't stop them from advertising their keyboards as "designed for Mac").
And of course, the top row includes F13~F19 in addition to the eject button.
It can also be argued that a proper Mac keyboard would have pretty much equal width modifier keys on the bottom row. I've seen some keyboards that basically have 1.5x Control and Command keys and 1x Option key, which looks downright perverse on a Mac keyboard. The Matias keyboards, despite being the best one at making a mechanical keyboard with a Mac layout, have it and it looks rather bad.
I stand by what I said: you can get very close to this using just about any mechanical keyboard, some Mac keycaps and software. A 20s googling got me a varmilo 110% keyboard. That, some custom caps and karabiner (which you should be using anyway if you have as high keyboard demands as you seem to have) gives you an equalish-width bottom row with 1 key too many, 19 function keys but no eject key.
[deleted]
Keychron, gmmk, drop, ducky.. filco? These are all boards you can add to cart right now.
You should take a look at Keychron, they make a wide variety of "Mac first" designed mechanical keyboards.
I use a keychron on my Mac, its been working great for me.
Just get replacement keycaps with Mac legends and remap with software or firmware. That’s what I do with my keyboards.
But I want one with a Mac keyboard layout, not just keycaps.
Any keyboard with QMK can be remapped to a Mac layout. Also Macs have supported positional key remapping since forever.
They can't. There's literally a different layout of keys. Unless your remapping actually moves, removes and adds physical keys, they can't.
I’m telling you this as a person with half a dozen Mac-layout custom mechanical keyboards on my desk and shelves: they can and I wouldn’t have it any other way. Command belongs next to Space, I agree.
Edit: I see. You want four modifiers on the left. That’s pretty uncommon. I remap Caps Lock to Control so I leave Fn in the bottom left.
Edit: I see. You want four modifiers on the left. That’s pretty uncommon. I remap Caps Lock to Control so I leave Fn in the bottom left.
Based on my experience, I bet none of your keyboards have the function key in the correct place.
Function is fine, but Control gets moved to (in my opinion a better place) Caps Lock.
The thing is that what you’re asking for isn’t impossible. The keycap support is there. A small tweak to the plate and PCB would do the trick. It’s funny though, Apple doesn’t put Fn on their full size keyboards.
The thing is that what you’re asking for isn’t impossible. The keycap support is there. A small tweak to the plate and PCB would do the trick. It’s funny though, Apple doesn’t put Fn on their full size keyboards.
>Apple doesn’t put Fn on their full size keyboards.
I'm looking at my full-size Apple keyboard and there is a Fn. It's just not where >99% of mechanical keyboard manufacturers think it is.
I'm looking at my full-size Apple keyboard and there is a Fn. It's just not where >99% of mechanical keyboard manufacturers think it is.
This is super exciting. A high quality keyboard with first class linux support. Does anyone know the price? And it's a 75% layout, which is my personal favorite.
Every single custom mechanical keyboard supports fully customizable open source firmware called QMK or Via. Nothing about any mechanical keyboard with QMK is inherently second-class when it comes to Linux.
The other weird thing about this keyboard is that the keycap compatibility is a little bit awkward. The wide delete key, short backspace, small return, and split spacebars are not impossible to replace, but many common MX sets don’t have those keycaps in the base kit. Most GMK base sets will only include the smaller backspace. You’ll need to shell out for the additional “40s” kit for those keys.
I don’t know the price but I would estimate at least $250 USD depending on the volume they intend to produce. A keyboard like this run through GeekHack and co would easily go for $350 without keycaps.
The other weird thing about this keyboard is that the keycap compatibility is a little bit awkward. The wide delete key, short backspace, small return, and split spacebars are not impossible to replace, but many common MX sets don’t have those keycaps in the base kit. Most GMK base sets will only include the smaller backspace. You’ll need to shell out for the additional “40s” kit for those keys.
I don’t know the price but I would estimate at least $250 USD depending on the volume they intend to produce. A keyboard like this run through GeekHack and co would easily go for $350 without keycaps.
With regards to Linux, I'm thinking about the software tools and documentation they presumably will provide.
Neat idea.
Having an USB hub into the keybaord makes things easier on crowded desks.
I know there have already been a few in the market, but this one looks gorgeous!
So.... it's just another QMK based board, no? What's the catch?
To the keyboard enthusiasts lurking here: what do I buy in order to get less latency? I already dropped X in order to get less software in my way, but I also want to get hardware out of my way.
Where is it launched? There's no blog post and no product page.
My advice to HN folks. Buy a keyboard with swappable switches and try out a lot different ones.
My favorite ended up being lightly lubed cheery mx red. But you never know unless you try at least a few.
My favorite ended up being lightly lubed cheery mx red. But you never know unless you try at least a few.
Or just but a key test pad, and a few different types of switches, to see which action you prefer. This avoids the need to outlay for a full set of switches (or many!) you end up not liking.
I ended up liking Kailh BOX Silent Brown switches.
I ended up liking Kailh BOX Silent Brown switches.
I guess. Personally I need to use the keyboard for at least a couple of hours. Some switches that feel nice when you test them, end up being tiring for long term use.
Can you expand on this a little?
I sometimes hear of keyboard aficionados having strong preferences for various "colors" of Cherry key switches. And I see high-end keyboards advertised with having particular choices of Cherry switches.
But I have no idea if it's actually worth the effort of making the stars align so that I have a particular kind of Cherry switch under my fingers.
How do people figure this out without wasting a lot of money? I.e., is there some kind of keyboard that shows off all the popular Cherry switch types? If so, do people end up having to buy one just for that single use, or is there a way to rent one?
I sometimes hear of keyboard aficionados having strong preferences for various "colors" of Cherry key switches. And I see high-end keyboards advertised with having particular choices of Cherry switches.
But I have no idea if it's actually worth the effort of making the stars align so that I have a particular kind of Cherry switch under my fingers.
How do people figure this out without wasting a lot of money? I.e., is there some kind of keyboard that shows off all the popular Cherry switch types? If so, do people end up having to buy one just for that single use, or is there a way to rent one?
"switch tester" is the word you're looking for, i.e.:
https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_lis...
(or even: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3143070)
it's just a frame, no electronics, that you can snap switches into and then mount a keycap onto them. you can get kits that comes with a handful of different switches + a handful of blank keycaps, or just the frame.
switches can be purchased individually or in small batches for around $1/per (obviously varying by brand and retailer).
you can see how it's a slippery slope from "let me try out a couple switches" to "wanna see my custom keyboard collection?".
(or even: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3143070)
it's just a frame, no electronics, that you can snap switches into and then mount a keycap onto them. you can get kits that comes with a handful of different switches + a handful of blank keycaps, or just the frame.
switches can be purchased individually or in small batches for around $1/per (obviously varying by brand and retailer).
you can see how it's a slippery slope from "let me try out a couple switches" to "wanna see my custom keyboard collection?".
I have also bought some keycaps and switches from Kono[1]. They seemed to have a decent selection.
[1]:
[1]:
Looks like it can't be converted to a UK layout unfortunately.
Now can we make it spilt
This is what you want. Same concept, open firmware, but split.
https://www.gboards.ca/products
https://www.gboards.ca/products
If you're going that route, go for GergoPlex with 12g switches :)
https://geekhack.org/ "Interest Checks" and "Group Buys and Preorders" typically have a few running\comming up splits.
Check out UltimateHackingKeyboard [0] for a developed, split, open-source keyboard. Can definitely recommend.
[0] https://uhk.io/
[0] https://uhk.io/
I wonder how the latency is on this.
https://danluu.com/keyboard-latency/
https://danluu.com/keyboard-latency/
Sooner or later bigger brands will inevitably take the existing qmk ecosystem mainstream. Enjoy being a member of a niche while it lasts. (Lily58 user here).
That board looks like it's for north facing switches. Like the Drop CTRL. This seems to be a universally disliked switch orientation.
North facing is needed for backlit keycaps, and south facing is needed for cherry profile (not the common OEM profile) keycaps. If using OEM/XDA/DSA there wont be interference with north facing. South facing does prevent use of through switch leds with at least OEM profile. Personally, I use south facing since I use SMD rgb and transparent housings with POM keycaps and the leds on the front look nice.
what is odd is that the keyboard configurator https://github.com/pop-os/keyboard-configurator references System76 laptops. Does that mean QMK will come to System76 laptops?
System 76 has for years been known to be working on making their own laptop designs. They are going slow to create a quality product that they don't lost money on. This looks like another of the baby steps needed along the way.
I'm feeling a bit old now with my unconfigurable non-RGB 122 key Unicomp Model-M.
It's not compact, however.
It's not compact, however.
The key placement is not ergonomic. Why not using an ortholinear layout?
Note that the System 76 laptop keyboards are also hardware programmable.
are there pictures of the finished product from the outside? how long until I can buy this?
Why not use Unix layout?
Hello
Why are we still making keyboards with a "Caps Lock" key on them in 2021? It's actively harmful on a functional level. And when you strip the function, the large key doesn't make sense anymore.
I'd rather have 2 regular-size blank keys in its place (& if you really need Caps Lock you can map it to one of them.)
(My Caps Lock is remapped to be a Compose key, but I'd rather have 2 keys there that I can remap. The space is there and it's nicely reachable.)
I'd rather have 2 regular-size blank keys in its place (& if you really need Caps Lock you can map it to one of them.)
(My Caps Lock is remapped to be a Compose key, but I'd rather have 2 keys there that I can remap. The space is there and it's nicely reachable.)
https://www.logitechg.com/en-au/products/gaming-keyboards/g8...
Best keyboard ive ever used, Linear keys. Fantastic for not only gaming but its office safe as its not a loud annoying clunk of crap
Best keyboard ive ever used, Linear keys. Fantastic for not only gaming but its office safe as its not a loud annoying clunk of crap
I love the idea but is scaring me a bit security wise. This can be a really hidden persistence method for malware.
Imagine the following scenario - memory only malware lands on my computers, identifies the keyboard, uploads a malicious firmware and disappears. Using basic heuristics like time and entropy it detect when I logon to the machine, get my passwords, understands my OS, and what for a hidden signal by the memory only malware. If the signal is not detected for a while because I rebooted my computer or reinstalled it, It unlocks the computer with the password at a time of inactivity, and types in a command like wget/curl to to download the malware again, and so on.
I think this can even be used for Virtual Machine escape, as many VMs just pass-through HID commands, so its possible the firmware can be updated from a VM.
Kudos to System76 though for providing the firmware, this helps in auditing it and running tools like lint or PVS studio to decrease the chance of bugs like that. They are consistent in being open source and I hope more vendors with firmware follow their lead.
Imagine the following scenario - memory only malware lands on my computers, identifies the keyboard, uploads a malicious firmware and disappears. Using basic heuristics like time and entropy it detect when I logon to the machine, get my passwords, understands my OS, and what for a hidden signal by the memory only malware. If the signal is not detected for a while because I rebooted my computer or reinstalled it, It unlocks the computer with the password at a time of inactivity, and types in a command like wget/curl to to download the malware again, and so on.
I think this can even be used for Virtual Machine escape, as many VMs just pass-through HID commands, so its possible the firmware can be updated from a VM.
Kudos to System76 though for providing the firmware, this helps in auditing it and running tools like lint or PVS studio to decrease the chance of bugs like that. They are consistent in being open source and I hope more vendors with firmware follow their lead.
QMK requires a RESET keycode to be added to your keymap in order to reboot into firmware update mode while it's running. Alternatively, depending on the configured options at compile-time, you can either hold ESC as you plug it in, or hold Space+B.
system76's launch requires the holding of ESC on bootup (well, top-left matrix position).
Under normal circumstances there's no "unattended update" functionality built in. Unsure if system76 has modified this behaviour to do so.
(Full disclosure, am a QMK maintainer)
system76's launch requires the holding of ESC on bootup (well, top-left matrix position).
Under normal circumstances there's no "unattended update" functionality built in. Unsure if system76 has modified this behaviour to do so.
(Full disclosure, am a QMK maintainer)
Unfortunately, system76 developers added exactly that functionality to their firmware: https://github.com/system76/qmk_firmware/commit/a1ab70c3a28a...
So it is possible to reboot into the firmware update mode just by sending some bytes to the raw HID interface. Apparently they did not think about the security aspect of this feature.
So it is possible to reboot into the firmware update mode just by sending some bytes to the raw HID interface. Apparently they did not think about the security aspect of this feature.
Would you mind creating a GitHub issue to track this on? We may decide to change the behavior before production
EDIT: I have created an issue here: https://github.com/system76/launch/issues/17
We do not intend for the production firmware to include any software reset to bootloader functionality. It will require a physical keypress (Fn+ESC)
EDIT: I have created an issue here: https://github.com/system76/launch/issues/17
We do not intend for the production firmware to include any software reset to bootloader functionality. It will require a physical keypress (Fn+ESC)
There is an automatic reset to bootloader feature that will be removed prior to production, customer units will always require a physical keypress (Fn+ESC) in order to flash firmware: https://github.com/system76/launch/issues/17
There is a pretty simple solution for this, require physical input to enter firmware upload mode.
Most open source keyboards have a button you press to switch from KB mode to flash target mode. Not sure how this laptop works but a solution would be to require the user to hold fn and some other key for a few seconds before it will accept firmware.
This problem btw is actually present in a lot of devices you already use but it’s proprietary. People have found out ways to flash firmware to USB devices, SD cards and hard drives before. It just requires reverse engineering to work it out.
Most open source keyboards have a button you press to switch from KB mode to flash target mode. Not sure how this laptop works but a solution would be to require the user to hold fn and some other key for a few seconds before it will accept firmware.
This problem btw is actually present in a lot of devices you already use but it’s proprietary. People have found out ways to flash firmware to USB devices, SD cards and hard drives before. It just requires reverse engineering to work it out.
You're right, as long as the hardware switch is really hardware and not fake-hardware-implemented-in-software like many vendors.
That's a real risk but closing the design doesn't really mitigate it, famously: https://semiaccurate.com/2009/07/31/apple-keyboard-firmware-...
They didn't write the firmware. QMK is a popular open source keyboard firmware.
And fwiw, user updatable keyboards are usually configured require a particular key be pressed to flash it, or have a dedicated button to hit with a paper clip.
And fwiw, user updatable keyboards are usually configured require a particular key be pressed to flash it, or have a dedicated button to hit with a paper clip.
I'm not too fond of the idea of having the firmware updatable in-place either, but given that the board picture shows it has an ISP header, you could probably disable the self-updating functionality and then you would need to do firmware modifications physically.
I backed them on CrowdSupply some years ago and although it took a while to be delivered have used it extensively since and even purchased a second one for at home & the office. A huge positive while waiting for it was the regular, informative status emails from the founder.
Now they are on to v2 [1] with backlighting and better keycaps.
The "Agent" firmware is also regularly updated and makes customising the keyboard a breeze. I won't go extensively into the functionality here but it's worth checking out.
I am in no-way affiliated with UHK but if anybody is looking for a split, open source, customisable keyboard I would highly recommend.
[0] https://uhk.io/
[1] https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/blog/2020/11/05/introduc...