Yamaha MOTOROiD(global.yamaha-motor.com)
global.yamaha-motor.com
Yamaha MOTOROiD
https://global.yamaha-motor.com/design_technology/design/concept/motoroid/
331 comments
Isn't louder == safer?
No, cars are isolated.
Safe driving practices are safe. Like knowing the perception psychology that makes it hard for cars to see you and try to counter that.
https://youtu.be/x94PGgYKHQ0
Safe driving practices are safe. Like knowing the perception psychology that makes it hard for cars to see you and try to counter that.
https://youtu.be/x94PGgYKHQ0
Purely anecdotally I used to have a motorcycle that after about a year had the muffler need replacement. I was a poor student and so bought a fake one instead that was just a muffler shaped pipe.
The difference was immediate and extremely noticable, the number of near misses went down a huge amount and the few times people got a little close I could just chuck the clutch in and give it a good rev to scare anyone off.
My biking days are done for now but if I go back I will not be going back quietly.
The difference was immediate and extremely noticable, the number of near misses went down a huge amount and the few times people got a little close I could just chuck the clutch in and give it a good rev to scare anyone off.
My biking days are done for now but if I go back I will not be going back quietly.
Why wouldn't you just put a wind-powered vuvuzela on the front instead? Then it's only being obnoxious when you're in motion and it's pointed in the direction that you want people to hear you instead of the opposite.
Cars are isolated? On a regular basis I drive 5 different cars, various makers, I can hear a Harley just fine in either.
And from every parked car where a driver has a conversation on speakers I can hear it so well they might as well have had it outside of their car. New Teslas, BMWs.
And from every parked car where a driver has a conversation on speakers I can hear it so well they might as well have had it outside of their car. New Teslas, BMWs.
Cars are not sound proof.
Depends on the car. Ever rode in a Mercedes S-Class at 250 kph on the Autobahn? Unnoticable, except of the fast whooshing by of overpasses, or such. (As front seat passenger)
No, I have drive in a class and it’s not sound. Not on the Autobahn though ;) I guess I should have clarified.
Almost all affordable cars are not sound proof.*
Almost all affordable cars are not sound proof.*
Yes it is. I'm not a fan of motorcycle racing in the city but I used to commute using a scooter and I'd never do it on a completely quiet machine. Car drivers are already pretty oblivious to smaller vehicles.
Louder == annoying
Louder == I get woken up at 2am
There’s loud, and then there’s the thunderous roar that some of these bikes make because the owner has obvious mental issues.
Louder == I get woken up at 2am
There’s loud, and then there’s the thunderous roar that some of these bikes make because the owner has obvious mental issues.
I never understood those people. Even the standard, factory sound of my bike was distrubing a little on longer trips...
Worst thing is that they are ruining it for everyone. Loud pipes, racing on the streets - causes more and more noise laws and motorcycle bans, making it harder for everyone.
Also looking forward to ride electric. Currently, the range sadly doesn't enable what I want to do with my bike - ride it out of town, to the mountains, where there is no infrastructure. But hopefully soon. For inner city commuting, electric bikes are already a great fit - prices are the only problem left.
Also looking forward to ride electric. Currently, the range sadly doesn't enable what I want to do with my bike - ride it out of town, to the mountains, where there is no infrastructure. But hopefully soon. For inner city commuting, electric bikes are already a great fit - prices are the only problem left.
They've taken the significantly-emptier streets of midtown-Manhattan and decided it's their playground evenings and late nights. Most of them are coming in from New Jersey. Usually it's 30 or 40 of them at a time and they ride extremely dangerously in addition to being loud.
It wouldn't be an issue if the NYPD were interested in enforcing the law.
What do you want them to do? Between public sentiment right now and De Blasio and his bullshit, I'm surprised they haven't all quit by now.
I'd expect them to do their jobs and remain professional, and if they feel that they can no longer do that, then they should quit vs. petulantly refusing to do their jobs.
Public sentiment is the way it is because of rampant documented abuses of power, authority, and regression to childish, over simplistic views of their positions and responsibilities.
Public sentiment is the way it is because of rampant documented abuses of power, authority, and regression to childish, over simplistic views of their positions and responsibilities.
where have there been motorcycle bans?
In German there is discussions about it, in Austria they banned all bikes that go above 95db in certain regions.
Many of China’s cities have banned motorcycles
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I don't get the loud exhausts and I don't get the community either. I've been riding bikes all my life and I've never felt attached to any "community" of bikers.
I love the sound of engines and find videos likehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baGM9StRJfI very relaxing. (Of course, living near a busy street and having to endure tens of bikes at the same time is another thing).
Oh man, this looks cool but the writing took me right out of the announcement. I don't usually notice bad writing, but this prose seems purpler than usual.
It's a translation of the Japanese at [1].
The original text is reasonable as Japanese advertising copy, but advertising copy usually shouldn’t be translated. Instead, it should be written anew in each target language, sometimes with different content and graphics.
I worked freelance for twenty years translating Japanese to English, often advertising copy like this. Though I did my best, I was rarely satisfied with the result unless I was able to work closely with the Japanese client and write something original in English that met their needs and was appropriate for the target audience. Most clients didn’t have enough time, money, or awareness of the drawbacks of direct translation to make that possible.
[1] https://global.yamaha-motor.com/jp/design_technology/design/...
The original text is reasonable as Japanese advertising copy, but advertising copy usually shouldn’t be translated. Instead, it should be written anew in each target language, sometimes with different content and graphics.
I worked freelance for twenty years translating Japanese to English, often advertising copy like this. Though I did my best, I was rarely satisfied with the result unless I was able to work closely with the Japanese client and write something original in English that met their needs and was appropriate for the target audience. Most clients didn’t have enough time, money, or awareness of the drawbacks of direct translation to make that possible.
[1] https://global.yamaha-motor.com/jp/design_technology/design/...
Ahh, that makes sense. Yes, unfortunately there's too much cultural context in advertising copy for it to translate even loosely.
I enjoyed the story behind the bike. I found it engaging and I feel like the photos enhanced the story. As I read through it I was pretty impressed that an article like this, maybe first composed in Japanese, had such a smooth translation into English. I wondered whether it began as an English audience article.
I was amused to find in one of the pictures a misspelled word. I didn't laugh but I did crack a smile. The trash can/ recycle bin in the cartoon encourages the viewer to "Picth In".
Cool bike, great story. I hope they iron out the issues that they find and this bike makes it onto streets everywhere.
I love how the Japanese people in the video linked on one post seem so accustomed to seeing cool stuff like this. I wish the guys at Yamaha all the success.
I was amused to find in one of the pictures a misspelled word. I didn't laugh but I did crack a smile. The trash can/ recycle bin in the cartoon encourages the viewer to "Picth In".
Cool bike, great story. I hope they iron out the issues that they find and this bike makes it onto streets everywhere.
I love how the Japanese people in the video linked on one post seem so accustomed to seeing cool stuff like this. I wish the guys at Yamaha all the success.
Woah, cpunk as fuark
Good luck getting that approved for street use in the EU but what a beauty.
I wish there were driving videos available, I'll patiently wait
Good luck getting that approved for street use in the EU but what a beauty.
I wish there were driving videos available, I'll patiently wait
Their petrol motorbikes are absolutely wonderful machines, I can't wait for their transition into electric!
I'm not so sure, the engines are great but they cheap out on suspensions lately.
I had an MT09 Tracer that was wobbly as f. in curves and on stright lines at high speed. The rear shock was just too loose. Same for the MT07 since 2014.
I had an MT09 Tracer that was wobbly as f. in curves and on stright lines at high speed. The rear shock was just too loose. Same for the MT07 since 2014.
I've heard a lot of complaints about the wobbly MT09 Tracer at high (>160km/h) speeds. I've also heard it was only on the first models, and due to the hand guards having bad aerodynamics. AFAIK it's solvable with aftermarket (or no) hand guards.
I've had both Yamaha and Honda motorcycles in the past, and all of them had extremely poor suspensions. My Honda XLV1000 fell multiple times from the stand because how soft the suspension became after only 6 months even after tuning it for maximum force.
I'm surely a contributing factor for being overweight, but they should be anyway approved for 2 people, and swapping the suspensions with aftermarket quality ones always solves the problem. Looks like many Japanese made bikes share this problem; they're fantastic, but their suspension system is definitely not on par.
Try MT09 SP.
What's the problem with getting it approved?
Absolutely no problem but lots of people like to trash talk on EU for no reason at every occasion they have.
I want to convert my bike to electric, so I've been looking into the legal stuff. Doesn't seem like there's any obstacles so far. And there's plenty of electric cars around, I'm thinking a motorcycle would be the same, but I'm not 100% sure.
Also thinking of starting a local business on this, surprisingly no one else is doing it, so there's got to be a catch somewhere.
E-bikes sell for 2400+ Euros, how is that even possible. A good one could be built for ~1000-1500 at most, which still leaves enough room for a lower price and a profit from the (little tbf) research I've done.
Also thinking of starting a local business on this, surprisingly no one else is doing it, so there's got to be a catch somewhere.
E-bikes sell for 2400+ Euros, how is that even possible. A good one could be built for ~1000-1500 at most, which still leaves enough room for a lower price and a profit from the (little tbf) research I've done.
Also some people have custom made Vespas like I do and to get it approved by the EU as a vehicle I have to export it to Switzerland and then reimport it to my country, but keep on letting your imagination run wild
Vehicle are approved by each country, not by EU. EU make that validation in one country is accepted in all country of the union and other countries that have a treaty with the union (Switzerland in this case). So you are blaming EU for the failure of the country you are in whereas it's the EU rule that have allowed you to get it in another country.
EU has help you to get what you need and for some reason you find a way to blame it.
If there was no EU, you would need to have one validation per country.
EU has help you to get what you need and for some reason you find a way to blame it.
If there was no EU, you would need to have one validation per country.
I can’t wait for electric motorbikes to be more diverse and advanced.
I used to be a “my loud exhaust helps me to be seen” kinda guy. Until one day, sat in standstill traffic in my car on the M74 motorway just outside Glasgow, a rider on a BMW S1000XR, with the same loud exhaust as on mine, filtered past the window and I didn’t hear him until he was level with my rear passenger door.
Exhausts sound great, i love the sound of a nice engine, it’s utterly intoxicating but it turns out that modern insulated cars block out the noise too well to make them useful as an awareness tool.
So, i’m fine with a silent electric bike from a safety point of view. The exhaust noise was a false comfort blanket that deserves no faith put in it as a device to be better seen on the road.
I used to be a “my loud exhaust helps me to be seen” kinda guy. Until one day, sat in standstill traffic in my car on the M74 motorway just outside Glasgow, a rider on a BMW S1000XR, with the same loud exhaust as on mine, filtered past the window and I didn’t hear him until he was level with my rear passenger door.
Exhausts sound great, i love the sound of a nice engine, it’s utterly intoxicating but it turns out that modern insulated cars block out the noise too well to make them useful as an awareness tool.
So, i’m fine with a silent electric bike from a safety point of view. The exhaust noise was a false comfort blanket that deserves no faith put in it as a device to be better seen on the road.
> “my loud exhaust helps me to be seen”
People are very good at justifying thier anti-social behaviour to themselves.
People are very good at justifying thier anti-social behaviour to themselves.
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That was my interpretation at first too, but their anecdote about being heard from inside a car leads me to believe they're talking about cars seeing/hearing them on the road for safety reasons.
Is that the reason they rev up their engines to the breaking point while standing in traffic?
That's the biggest annoyance in my eyes.
As a motorcyclist, i think its ok for the engine to make some noise (not counting the obnoxious cruisers or bike with some aftermarket exhausts), but there is truly no reason to rev up hard while sitting in traffic or in a slow central streets.
Also, the "utterly intoxicating" sound is often forced onto others without their consent. Like playing your music through a loudspeaker in a public place.
So yeah, go electric!
So yeah, go electric!
> Like playing your music through a loudspeaker in a public place.
You're in luck, that's exactly what electric cars will do instead of being quiet!
You're in luck, that's exactly what electric cars will do instead of being quiet!
Some of them have a sound so that pedestrians can hear them coming. It isn't ridiculously loud - and if you wanted to silence it, you could easily make some modifications. I doubt silencing an EV would be legal though.
It’s a scifi low drone noise though, just enough to notice, it’s not annoying at all.
When you're hard of hearing like me, traffic noise makes conversation impossible just about everywhere inside a city. Electric vehicles might have fixed this, if the solution were not being banned. That is intensely annoying.
(If not outside, you can try chatting inside. But public meeting places inside are almost all noisy too: if not crowded enough to be noisy, most will add music or TV to compensate.)
(If not outside, you can try chatting inside. But public meeting places inside are almost all noisy too: if not crowded enough to be noisy, most will add music or TV to compensate.)
Have you heard the EV noise though? In France there are a lot of Renault Zoe around, and the noise is much softer, narrower band (which might help not mask vocal frequency band) than a gas engine. To be honest, I’m grateful, otherwise I’d cross in front of one as a pedestrian or cyclist. I’d even like to see the front of city buses with some noise since, with the engine in the back, you just hear them whoosh past when they barely miss you.
It is good that safety is not being overlooked. My problem with it is in expecting us to get locked in to this particular answer to the problem, when cars are going to drive themselves more and more, with better awareness, etc. Maybe I should trust more that we'll also solve the coordination problem of switching to really quiet cars in the future.
I’m all for quiet cars. As a cyclist though I rely on at least tire noise to judge proximity of cars around. I’d guess that’s the noise floor for cars.
Re-reading my comment, I see how this can come across. I'm actually fully in favor of having these speakers. Even if they would be annoying, then we should just switch to mainly using public transport especially in areas where people live or want to enjoy the outdoors. But yeah presumably it's just a low volume, enough for the person behind the car to realize it's on and rolling but not carry further. I haven't heard one myself yet.
They may use Toyota's speaker thing that emits a sound at low speeds, which was specifically created to reduce noise pollution.
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Yeah, your loud pipes don't help the fact that most people can't handle driving without intentionally distracting themselves with music, apps, or phone calls. Driving a car is too easy a task and requires just enough focus that people go on mental autopilot and ignore outliers like motorcycles and bicycles.
Unless one trains oneself to notice them (or if one has an affinity to them due to being an enthusiast), two wheeled vehicles are a lot harder to notice while driving in a car.
As well as everybody who is not currently in traffic that also gets to 'enjoy' your loud exhaust. And needlessly revving the engine when standing still is also probably in some way related to traffic safety.
This is a very strange justification for having an obnoxiously loud vehicle.
If you want to be seen wearing bright leds.
If you want to be seen wearing bright leds.
It wouldn't help. There's literally nothing that can be done to get a cager's attention, if they're distracted. I've had to knock on windows, to prevent people from merging into me. Loud pipes, hi-viz clothes, horns. Nothing helps. People are just too self absorbed to pay attention. You people see cops (sometimes) and vehicles bigger than yours and that's about it.
Perhaps treating the other road users as people instead of derogatory terms like cagers would help. In addition, choosing a mode of transport which is literally 20 times more lethal per kilometer than driving is your responsibility. You can always choose to be a ‘cager’.
Motorcycles are lethal _because_ of cars.
Blaming people for injuries are deaths caused by cars is the most discusting tactic the car industry has used to fight against road safety. Just look at any newspaper article about car drivers murdering children: they are always phrased as in "inattentive child was looking at his cellphone and died in a road".
I find it incredible that walking on a street is illegal in parts of America. Honestly, the only reasonable solution to this is a Netherlands-style law that makes the biggest vehicle automatically guilty for all accidents they caused: this alone being deaths down tenfold.
Blaming people for injuries are deaths caused by cars is the most discusting tactic the car industry has used to fight against road safety. Just look at any newspaper article about car drivers murdering children: they are always phrased as in "inattentive child was looking at his cellphone and died in a road".
I find it incredible that walking on a street is illegal in parts of America. Honestly, the only reasonable solution to this is a Netherlands-style law that makes the biggest vehicle automatically guilty for all accidents they caused: this alone being deaths down tenfold.
I wish it was that simple. First of all, around half of the lethal accidents with motorcycles do not involve another road user. The other half is often caused by the motorcyclist due to speeding, insufficient distance or incorrect clothing and protection.
Second of all, while cars have seen half a century of safety improvements, motorcycles have lagged behind. Nevertheless, road use and traffic density have increased. Riding a motorcycle is akin to driving a car without a seatbelt, without a crumble zone and without ABS (and even then it is more lethal). Accidents happen. It is how you prepare for them that makes the difference.
Yes, I also find it incredibly stupid how the US has become so walking and cycling unfriendly. The reason why the Netherlands is different is not due to legal or regulations. It's because we have had leaders who made long-term plans to separate the various types of traffic. This means we separate the risk groups. You won't find many walking on roads with traffic exceeding 50 kph (30 mph). You won't find cyclists on highways. That is the solution.
Second of all, while cars have seen half a century of safety improvements, motorcycles have lagged behind. Nevertheless, road use and traffic density have increased. Riding a motorcycle is akin to driving a car without a seatbelt, without a crumble zone and without ABS (and even then it is more lethal). Accidents happen. It is how you prepare for them that makes the difference.
Yes, I also find it incredibly stupid how the US has become so walking and cycling unfriendly. The reason why the Netherlands is different is not due to legal or regulations. It's because we have had leaders who made long-term plans to separate the various types of traffic. This means we separate the risk groups. You won't find many walking on roads with traffic exceeding 50 kph (30 mph). You won't find cyclists on highways. That is the solution.
In my country, in 90% of motorcycle deaths cars are not involved. It’s simply people going too fast or otherwise misjudge corners.
It's not strange, it's exceedingly common in the motorcycle community.
I don't have loud pipes but I think it could help in blind spots, that's about it. I just don't ride in blind spots instead.
I don't have loud pipes but I think it could help in blind spots, that's about it. I just don't ride in blind spots instead.
That should not be necessary. Bicycles don't need it, do they?
Moreover, with modern blind spot cameras, automatic collision avoidance systems (which will probably, cheaply, equip every electric car), I hope these concerns will completely fade away.
Moreover, with modern blind spot cameras, automatic collision avoidance systems (which will probably, cheaply, equip every electric car), I hope these concerns will completely fade away.
Ok, well I have been hit by vehicles on various bicycles five times. Always follow the laws, ride the lanes, lights, blah blah blah. On my liter bike with an after-market exhaust, people mostly get out of my way.... so I mounted an air horn on my bike handlebars, people now see me magically.
At least that's better than loud exhaust pipes. Loud bikes activate the fight-or-flight system in a way that klaxons do not.
Maybe that's because the loud bikes have frequencies and intonation modulation close to those of a menacing voice? (or growl)
At least in Japan, some bikers (bōsōzoku) do on purpose some kind of sounds similar to somebody arguing angrily (and snarkingly!).
But I don't want to accept neither as a solution air horns and vuvuzuelas competing for my attention and for the privilege of prematurely obliterating my cochlear hair cells.
There are other ways, let's do this. We are smarter than that, aren't we.
Maybe that's because the loud bikes have frequencies and intonation modulation close to those of a menacing voice? (or growl)
At least in Japan, some bikers (bōsōzoku) do on purpose some kind of sounds similar to somebody arguing angrily (and snarkingly!).
But I don't want to accept neither as a solution air horns and vuvuzuelas competing for my attention and for the privilege of prematurely obliterating my cochlear hair cells.
There are other ways, let's do this. We are smarter than that, aren't we.
> Bicycles don't need it, do they?
The traffic fatalities of bicyclists in cities would like a word with you...
The traffic fatalities of bicyclists in cities would like a word with you...
And yet if I permanently had a siren on my bicycle you’d think I’d be an asshole.
To me the sound of those big bikes is a form of terrorism. They rise my blood pressure, increase stress levels and make me hate. Try living somewhere where every 20 minutes such bikes make the windows of your flat shake and you can't hear your TV or your partner talking until the bike is gone. Why do I have to suffer this every day of my life? I can't wait until the ICE is part of our primitive past.
I understand that performance engines need unobstructed exhausts up to a certain point, but pipes tuned to amplify this sound is distracting at best, damaging your ears at worst. I don't like them.
They become hazardous in tunnels, underpasses and other closed spaces. Ultra loud pipes kill my ears' locating capabilities and I can't mentally place the motorcycle to the correct place so I won't unintentionally endanger it.
The place I live has many more motorcycles in recent years and they drive dangerously to save time (delivery guys), and it makes my life as a car driver much more harder.
If you always drive in my blind spots and have loud pipes to blind my ears, I cannot see you, even if I very hard to try. So please be a little more considerate.
They become hazardous in tunnels, underpasses and other closed spaces. Ultra loud pipes kill my ears' locating capabilities and I can't mentally place the motorcycle to the correct place so I won't unintentionally endanger it.
The place I live has many more motorcycles in recent years and they drive dangerously to save time (delivery guys), and it makes my life as a car driver much more harder.
If you always drive in my blind spots and have loud pipes to blind my ears, I cannot see you, even if I very hard to try. So please be a little more considerate.
Hear hear. Noise pollution is one of the biggest reasons why I never want to live in a city again. And loud-pipe motorcycles are by far the biggest contributor to that—more than garbage trucks, delivery vehicles, truck engine (jake) brakes, or even sirens (except in New York where the sirens are inexplicably loud even outside the urban canyons of Manhattan).
Euro 4/5 big bikes are surprisingly quiet off the floor then they swap the exhaust and it's loud as fuck.
I'm a motorcyclist and I'll be moving to a larger bike next year but I want one that is as quiet as practical, on bike comfort is better if you don't scream every time you go over 5K.
I'm a motorcyclist and I'll be moving to a larger bike next year but I want one that is as quiet as practical, on bike comfort is better if you don't scream every time you go over 5K.
> "I understand that performance engines need unobstructed exhausts up to a certain point"
As a motorcycle and car enthusiast, that point is way beyond any sort of reasonable level of performance for public roads.
As a motorcycle and car enthusiast, that point is way beyond any sort of reasonable level of performance for public roads.
Performance engines belong on the race track
I don't know what to tell you, I'm normally a pretty sensible type. Stick to the speed limits, have a small sensible car etc. But on a motorbike the noise of the exhaust while riding a motorcycle is intoxicating!
Lots of 'intoxicating' things are incredibly selfish or even endanger others, that doesn't seem like a justification for anything.
I live in a nature area, on a curvy road (a dike). On sunny days, the amount of motorcycles passing is insane: several hundreds.
Of those, under 1% is like you: rediculously loud, shifting gears too late, etc.
Me and my neighbors are so fed up with those 20-something noise pollutors per week, that we're working with our regional govt to ban all motorcycles on these roads, or re-arrange our road so motorcycling is no longer fun, here. Apparently that is the only route left, now.
So congratulations: you've managed to spoil a hobby of hundreds of motorcyclists. (Besides being annoying as hell, obviuosly)
Of those, under 1% is like you: rediculously loud, shifting gears too late, etc.
Me and my neighbors are so fed up with those 20-something noise pollutors per week, that we're working with our regional govt to ban all motorcycles on these roads, or re-arrange our road so motorcycling is no longer fun, here. Apparently that is the only route left, now.
So congratulations: you've managed to spoil a hobby of hundreds of motorcyclists. (Besides being annoying as hell, obviuosly)
You seem to be projecting. My motorbike always had a street legal exhaust on it and it wasn't particularly loud.
Perhaps you should spend less time worrying about a little bit of noise, especially during daylight hours, presumably on mostly sunny days.
Perhaps you should spend less time worrying about a little bit of noise, especially during daylight hours, presumably on mostly sunny days.
Can you be underestimating how sound propagates in silent environments, and our brains are so efficient at filtering background noise?
Since the pandemic started, traffic around my home decreased tremendously and, even smallest traffic became bothering. In sparsely populated areas, that oddball sound is much more disturbing to residents which are used to silence.
BTW, getting angry to people who we don't know personally is not very productive IMHO.
Since the pandemic started, traffic around my home decreased tremendously and, even smallest traffic became bothering. In sparsely populated areas, that oddball sound is much more disturbing to residents which are used to silence.
BTW, getting angry to people who we don't know personally is not very productive IMHO.
I'm intrigued about which part of that response you thought was angry?
The front elevation of my house is less than 15ft away from a reasonably busy road. I'm no stranger to the perils of noise pollution. In fact, around one week a year, last week in fact, the M25 (the London ring road) is diverted overnight along our road. This means we have heavy trucks passing our home all night long. We also live under the departure route for Heathrow (though that's been relatively quiet this year!).
I think people should live and let live though. Otherwise we end up in a situation where people are constantly trying to ban other people's hobbies. Off-road driving, motorcycles, horse riding, light aircraft, playing the drums, road cycling, caravaning, beer gardens, smoking weed, barbequing, DIY, fixing up old cars etc. They all have something someone else could find objectional if they lack joy enough in their own life to want to cause misery in someone else's.
The front elevation of my house is less than 15ft away from a reasonably busy road. I'm no stranger to the perils of noise pollution. In fact, around one week a year, last week in fact, the M25 (the London ring road) is diverted overnight along our road. This means we have heavy trucks passing our home all night long. We also live under the departure route for Heathrow (though that's been relatively quiet this year!).
I think people should live and let live though. Otherwise we end up in a situation where people are constantly trying to ban other people's hobbies. Off-road driving, motorcycles, horse riding, light aircraft, playing the drums, road cycling, caravaning, beer gardens, smoking weed, barbequing, DIY, fixing up old cars etc. They all have something someone else could find objectional if they lack joy enough in their own life to want to cause misery in someone else's.
> I'm intrigued about which part of that response you thought was angry?
From your general tone, but I'm not a native English speaker, so I might be mistaken. I won't be insistent.
I won't dispute about the noise levels of your home, but you might be more tolerant to noise then people in quiet places, because auditory subsystem learns to ignore it, and it decreases noise sensitivity somewhat.
> I think people should live and let live though.
I'm not against that, but I don't agree that one's hobby can bother others under the name of freedom. We see a lot of similar stuff done by local governments. UK is installing "decorative" items on the walls and benches in parks to prevent skaters from using walls for tricks for example. Contrarily, I'm sure that there are specially built skating parks for who want to board and skate.
In the same perspective, I'm not against biking. It's a nice culture. It's important, however loud pipes, dangerous driving under the name of increased visibility, etc. are not acceptable in my book. Similarly, if a quiet country is ruined by excessive motor noise, I can understand the residents' reaction. As I've said somewhere in the comment, my father was a rally driver. I'm no stranger to powerful engines and cars, yet I don't like the noise of a modified car screaming through a nearby street in the silence of the night.
Ford's latest Mustangs have a "neighborhood mode" when the engine is first started, which enable all mufflers and disable resonators. That thing sounds like a family sedan in that mode. If a car manufacturer is installing something like that to a naturally loud beast, it's telling IMHO (and I applaud them for their ingenuity).
If we (not in the terms of you and me, but in the terms of general public) can apply some empathy to the issue, it's possible to find a nice middle ground around this issue.
From your general tone, but I'm not a native English speaker, so I might be mistaken. I won't be insistent.
I won't dispute about the noise levels of your home, but you might be more tolerant to noise then people in quiet places, because auditory subsystem learns to ignore it, and it decreases noise sensitivity somewhat.
> I think people should live and let live though.
I'm not against that, but I don't agree that one's hobby can bother others under the name of freedom. We see a lot of similar stuff done by local governments. UK is installing "decorative" items on the walls and benches in parks to prevent skaters from using walls for tricks for example. Contrarily, I'm sure that there are specially built skating parks for who want to board and skate.
In the same perspective, I'm not against biking. It's a nice culture. It's important, however loud pipes, dangerous driving under the name of increased visibility, etc. are not acceptable in my book. Similarly, if a quiet country is ruined by excessive motor noise, I can understand the residents' reaction. As I've said somewhere in the comment, my father was a rally driver. I'm no stranger to powerful engines and cars, yet I don't like the noise of a modified car screaming through a nearby street in the silence of the night.
Ford's latest Mustangs have a "neighborhood mode" when the engine is first started, which enable all mufflers and disable resonators. That thing sounds like a family sedan in that mode. If a car manufacturer is installing something like that to a naturally loud beast, it's telling IMHO (and I applaud them for their ingenuity).
If we (not in the terms of you and me, but in the terms of general public) can apply some empathy to the issue, it's possible to find a nice middle ground around this issue.
Absolutely. To you.
Other 10,000 people you pass be dammed.
Other 10,000 people you pass be dammed.
I recently had to move because of the noise caused by people like you.
Any engine can be intoxicating. Especially 3.0L V6 and upwards.
However, having an intoxicating piece of equipment doesn't allow anyone to drive recklessly in public roads, endangering yourself and others.
This the the thing I can tell you, as a son of a rally driver.
However, having an intoxicating piece of equipment doesn't allow anyone to drive recklessly in public roads, endangering yourself and others.
This the the thing I can tell you, as a son of a rally driver.
Inhaling the exhaust is intoxicating too. Not all of us want to destroy our lives for cheap thrills.
https://youtu.be/eEdf0R5ypsg
https://youtu.be/GO6guuJtPkM
https://youtu.be/eEdf0R5ypsg
https://youtu.be/GO6guuJtPkM
Harley’s exhausts make me sick even if I cover by ears, the sound vibrates through my body. I also dislike a tool reving all the way up his standing crotch rocket in front of my house, it’s both bad for the engine and done to draw attention and annoy others, why is this even allowed? Or the exploding sound which makes my dog enter a panic attack? They install some special exhausts pipes for that, how is that legal?
From my understanding a stock Harley coming out of the factory is relatively quiet. They manufacture them to meet legal requirements.
It is just that majority of owners seem to replace exhaust system components to give it that "Harley sound".
Here is somebody doing a decibel test of their stock Harley: https://youtu.be/4LzFC1Ts7PE?t=63
It is just that majority of owners seem to replace exhaust system components to give it that "Harley sound".
Here is somebody doing a decibel test of their stock Harley: https://youtu.be/4LzFC1Ts7PE?t=63
Some motorcycle have an insane high volume bass sound that make me physically sick.
If the rider thinks it helps them get noticed in traffic, then fine, but then they should also have on a hi-vis jackets and helmet, which most don’t.
If the rider thinks it helps them get noticed in traffic, then fine, but then they should also have on a hi-vis jackets and helmet, which most don’t.
It gets me utterly sick as well and covering my ears does’t help much. I don’t think the only intention is be heard but to be noticed by absolutely everyone, awake or asleep. It’s a show off
Hi-viz doesn't work though. I use to look like a walking highlighter, I might as well have been invisible. Put on aftermarket exhaust and people know I'm there. The difference in behaviour was crazy.
Wear a white helmet. People notice them because cop. I loved my black and red shoeis but the white gets more eyes.
You're on the mark about hi-viz gear though. It's sometimes helpful but bikes are generally invisible.
You're on the mark about hi-viz gear though. It's sometimes helpful but bikes are generally invisible.
Sorry, I don’t understand why you’re downvoted, because that’s kinda interesting. Has someone wrote the sound also don’t help in many cases so that could indicate that many aren’t paying enough attention while driving or we’re lacking some way to make bikers visible (both motorcycles and bicycles).
If you can't find a safe way to use your mode of transportation without ruining the quality of life of your neighbors, perhaps it's time to find a new mode of transportation.
If you can’t find a way to sit in front of the AC and listen to the radio without clogging roads, burning fossil fuels at a double or triple rate, and impeding your visibility so much that you regularly endanger the life of your neighbors, maybe it’s time to find a new mode of relaxation.
The USA is one of the few countries where motorcycles are uncommon and seen as a surprising choice, probably due to our laughably simple drivers test that doesn’t even require knowledge of how to drive a manual. Motorcycles burn less gas, cause far less traffic, and cause far less damage to others when accidents occur. The single reason why motorcycling is dangerous is because of 4-wheel drivers, who constantly:
* Change lanes/cut you off without signaling * Slam on their brakes without signaling * Try to merge into your lane when they are next to you * Read their phones and do all of these things
When I say constantly, I mean (in my city) every block or two of riding. Motorcycling is an exercise in constant scanning for the next person who is going to intentionally or unintentionally try to kill you, and having a loud exhaust is a way to quickly get them to realize they’re about to do so. It’s hard to see car drivers constantly put us in danger by (illegally) not paying attention for their own comfort, and then insinuate that it’s the motorcycle riders who are the problem.
One last note - I think most HNers are talking about loud sport bike exhausts like Yoshimura here, not Harley exhausts that sound like thunder every time you let off the clutch. These exhausts are normally at an acceptable, sociable noise level but can get much louder when you rev high, which is nice for blipping the throttle to get the guy next to you scrolling Spotify to look up before he sideswipes you.
So, even though I’m recovering from the multiple fractures I received after going over my handlebars, to avoid hitting a car that turned left in front of me in an intersection, who may never have seen me at all, I think I’ll stick with my mode of transportation. And you can stick with yours, and turn the radio up if you find the noise of motors on a motorway that unacceptable. I certainly do think a lot of riders take it too far, or just do it for attention. But I don’t think it’s fair to blame them in general for doing anything they can to counteract the lack of care and attention paid by people in cars.
The USA is one of the few countries where motorcycles are uncommon and seen as a surprising choice, probably due to our laughably simple drivers test that doesn’t even require knowledge of how to drive a manual. Motorcycles burn less gas, cause far less traffic, and cause far less damage to others when accidents occur. The single reason why motorcycling is dangerous is because of 4-wheel drivers, who constantly:
* Change lanes/cut you off without signaling * Slam on their brakes without signaling * Try to merge into your lane when they are next to you * Read their phones and do all of these things
When I say constantly, I mean (in my city) every block or two of riding. Motorcycling is an exercise in constant scanning for the next person who is going to intentionally or unintentionally try to kill you, and having a loud exhaust is a way to quickly get them to realize they’re about to do so. It’s hard to see car drivers constantly put us in danger by (illegally) not paying attention for their own comfort, and then insinuate that it’s the motorcycle riders who are the problem.
One last note - I think most HNers are talking about loud sport bike exhausts like Yoshimura here, not Harley exhausts that sound like thunder every time you let off the clutch. These exhausts are normally at an acceptable, sociable noise level but can get much louder when you rev high, which is nice for blipping the throttle to get the guy next to you scrolling Spotify to look up before he sideswipes you.
So, even though I’m recovering from the multiple fractures I received after going over my handlebars, to avoid hitting a car that turned left in front of me in an intersection, who may never have seen me at all, I think I’ll stick with my mode of transportation. And you can stick with yours, and turn the radio up if you find the noise of motors on a motorway that unacceptable. I certainly do think a lot of riders take it too far, or just do it for attention. But I don’t think it’s fair to blame them in general for doing anything they can to counteract the lack of care and attention paid by people in cars.
Aftermarket exhaust and slight left/right swerving movements beats hi-viz. The swerving is meant to catch the eye's attention in the side mirrors.
Many people also drive with earphones on so whatever external noises they hear is debatable. I'm betting most bikers will agree that hi-viz alone doesn't guarantee that you're visible.
Many people also drive with earphones on so whatever external noises they hear is debatable. I'm betting most bikers will agree that hi-viz alone doesn't guarantee that you're visible.
Not sure I agree with the exhaust, but the weaving seems to help a LOT.
The downvotes are because the loud pipes thing is a myth, especially on the highway. MSF classes actually cover this.
> To me the sound of those big bikes is a form of terrorism
Small bikes are way worse. These 50cc two stroke engines, often illegally modified with loud exhaust. Not only they are as loud if not louder than a big motorbike but they are so slow they linger around for a while, often it populated area like cities.
They are popular in France because you only need to be 14 to ride one (vs 18 for cars) and you don't need a license.
Small bikes are way worse. These 50cc two stroke engines, often illegally modified with loud exhaust. Not only they are as loud if not louder than a big motorbike but they are so slow they linger around for a while, often it populated area like cities.
They are popular in France because you only need to be 14 to ride one (vs 18 for cars) and you don't need a license.
I believe that by "the sound of those big bikes" the commenter does not know the bike characteristics other than by their sound, so it's the same either with a physically small or big bike: what he is stating is that he does not like the big sound.
That's true that there are big as well as small bikes with an horrendous sound, they are equally harmful.
I agree that they should very quickly belong to history (or museums). I wish that this new Yamaha concept will accelerate bikes electrification.
That's true that there are big as well as small bikes with an horrendous sound, they are equally harmful.
I agree that they should very quickly belong to history (or museums). I wish that this new Yamaha concept will accelerate bikes electrification.
You are right. Big or small bikes, buses, trucks or a driver trying to quickly burn as much fuel as possible in their car are all disturbing.
A difference is that some of them are not trying to be loud on purpose while others are. That's what triggers me. Their violence.
If smoking is not allowed I don't understand why this is, or why rules are not enforced. Changing homes is much harder than changing sidewalks.
At least there's hope. Seeing silent electric bikes go by makes me smile.
A difference is that some of them are not trying to be loud on purpose while others are. That's what triggers me. Their violence.
If smoking is not allowed I don't understand why this is, or why rules are not enforced. Changing homes is much harder than changing sidewalks.
At least there's hope. Seeing silent electric bikes go by makes me smile.
Only god knows how much I hate those things. I don't think there's ANY vehicle as infuriating as a two-stroke scooter driving down a street slowly while revving its engine to death. Their stink and noise makes fighter jets blush. Frankly, the permanent hearing damage the riders probably get is well-earned by being such an enormous moron.
Yeah crotch rockets are another level all together. When they open up the throttle on the freeway near my house I can hear them still going at least 2km away!
I've always seen people who need/crave loud noises, bright/flashy colors, lots of bling, etc. as just not very bright people. It seems to correlate with lower-than-average intelligence. My theory is that those minds need more 'kinetic' stimulation in order to feel good. So far, after 50+ years of anecdotal experience I've found very few exceptions.
I'd love a silent bike with tons of torque. I'm not looking forward to the day where my bike phones home to the manufacturer, isn't repairable by an amateur in a garage, or comes with DRM.
Unfortunately I think both those are inevitable. For now I'll keep riding my 15-year old carburetor bike with no rider aids.
Speaking of rider aids, I sometimes wonder where the balance is between safety and fun. I think the sport is only interesting if it's challenging, so a self driving motorcycle doesn't seem like it's good for anything other than transportation. What about TCS? ABS? Slipper clutches?
Unfortunately I think both those are inevitable. For now I'll keep riding my 15-year old carburetor bike with no rider aids.
Speaking of rider aids, I sometimes wonder where the balance is between safety and fun. I think the sport is only interesting if it's challenging, so a self driving motorcycle doesn't seem like it's good for anything other than transportation. What about TCS? ABS? Slipper clutches?
Public roads aren’t really a sporting arena, so probably actual sports use will continue in an appropriate venue.
Certainly there's a lot of skill to riding a motorcycle that TCS/ABS/Slippers (and displacement!) do not replace. I love that aspect of motorcycles. It's pretty amazing to be riding at your peak performance in B group on the track on a 650 and have someone on a Ninja 300 blow by you on an inside line at 20-30 seconds faster pace than you.
> Exhausts sound great, i love the sound of a nice engine, it’s utterly intoxicating
Loud motorcycle engines are the sound of the world’s hugest assholes making their giant fart in the public’s face.
Loud motorcycle engines are the sound of the world’s hugest assholes making their giant fart in the public’s face.
Right up there with truck ones. We got one who drives by our house every night at around 9:30 and it's so freaking loud the windows shake.
I think the only asshole here is you. You can enjoy riding HD without being an asshole. Big engines are loud, they need to breathe. People like you are the ones who promote cancel culture. Anything that is of slight annoyance to you must be banned. No tolerance.
> Big engines are loud, they need to breathe
Exactly. Motorcycle assholes should take their deafening fart sounds somewhere 20 miles away from human or animal habitation. Maybe to a desolate salt flat or something.
The bikes that violate vehicular noise laws should be confiscated and scrapped at the owner’s expense, and their riders’ motorcycle licenses revoked.
> slight annoyance
Subjecting your innocent neighbors to aural assault is a sadistic crime, not a slightly annoying hobby.
Exactly. Motorcycle assholes should take their deafening fart sounds somewhere 20 miles away from human or animal habitation. Maybe to a desolate salt flat or something.
The bikes that violate vehicular noise laws should be confiscated and scrapped at the owner’s expense, and their riders’ motorcycle licenses revoked.
> slight annoyance
Subjecting your innocent neighbors to aural assault is a sadistic crime, not a slightly annoying hobby.
Deafening? The only one who will suffer hearing damage is the rider.
Next time get your decibel meter out and you will probably find you are just as offended by bikes within the legal limit. You sound like that type of person. Probably live a very sheltered life with no real problems.
Next time get your decibel meter out and you will probably find you are just as offended by bikes within the legal limit. You sound like that type of person. Probably live a very sheltered life with no real problems.
[deleted]
No, we don't like them out in nature either.
> Big engines are loud, they need to breathe.
Oh, bullshit: There are lots of even bigger engines that are less loud. Compare that .75-l Honda or 1.5-l Harley-Davidson against, say, a 6-liter Mercedes-Benz.
Q.E.D.
The assholes are those who come up with these feeble excuses for their antisocial behaviour.
Oh, bullshit: There are lots of even bigger engines that are less loud. Compare that .75-l Honda or 1.5-l Harley-Davidson against, say, a 6-liter Mercedes-Benz.
Q.E.D.
The assholes are those who come up with these feeble excuses for their antisocial behaviour.
I owned ride 6-7 different motorcycles, and I believe there's a special place in hell for those who put on loud aftermarket exhausts.
Sure, it sounds nice to them. It shows an astonishing disregard to thousands of other people they impact daily. Let alone your next 10 neighbour houses who put up with it on consistent basis. ... :O
There's no increased safety factor - there's no real location or distance clue such loud exhausts provide and in my experience they only stress and antagonize other drivers :-/
Sure, it sounds nice to them. It shows an astonishing disregard to thousands of other people they impact daily. Let alone your next 10 neighbour houses who put up with it on consistent basis. ... :O
There's no increased safety factor - there's no real location or distance clue such loud exhausts provide and in my experience they only stress and antagonize other drivers :-/
I always assumed that the point of loud vehicles was to assert dominance by being an asshole. If people are annoyed and upset then it is working exactly as intended. You have provoked an emotion that fuels your ego and image of yourself as a bad ass that doesn't care about other people.
This explains a lot of modern day behaviour, thanks for pointing out what should have been obvious. Yet here I have been all these years thinking these people didn't realise what they were doing.
I love this comment! I live out in country and it seems like every jackass with a Harley has to add some noise pollution just so they enjoy the freedom of the open road.
I hope this is not in poor taste, but I find it pretty relevant to the discussion (and hilarious)
https://youtu.be/ipDmsxQVxIM
https://youtu.be/ipDmsxQVxIM
No not necessarily by being an asshole. By being loud. Animals do it too like lions they have a mighty roar. But they only roar when they are afraid. No? Why would they otherwise roar?
you're right, they don't do it to be an asshole. they do, however, do it to feel like a badass, and they like feeling like a badass because they're an asshole.
if you start looking for it, or rather, start understanding that it's there, you will soon see an alarming number of people doing things solely because it makes them feel like a badass. it is 100% of the entire reason to live, in some people.
if you start looking for it, or rather, start understanding that it's there, you will soon see an alarming number of people doing things solely because it makes them feel like a badass. it is 100% of the entire reason to live, in some people.
I suspect you are partially correct, they will roar out of fear to try to scare of the other guy, but after a successful take down, they'll also roar to show their dominance, in order to assert their position.
I’ve always said that an exhaust should only be as loud as the vehicle or motorcycle is fast. I put exhausts on my vehicles and motorcycles that free the flow of air which makes the engine (an air pump) perform better. I never put one on a slow vehicle just to make it louder. Consider this the same as overclocking a cpu. You are burning up more electricity than you “need” to, all for your own personal greed or need for speed? The door swings both ways.
>>"I put exhausts on my vehicles and motorcycles that free the flow of air which makes the engine (an air pump) perform better"
As I mentioned in other thread
1. What proportion of people with straight pipes take them on a track or engage in competitive endeavour
2. What proportion take advanced classes and have the skillset to take advantage of increase performance
3. What proportion put their bike on a dyno before and after to have a foggiest clue if straight pipe does anything
4. What proportion of them tunes the rest of their bike to take advantage of new pipe
5. For how many loud cruisers is performance in any way even remotely an actual consideration? You don't buy a cruiser for speed.
Finally, you can get high flow pipes which are quiet. But that's not really the point is it ;)
I actually respect people who say "I got it because it's loud and cool and gives me a rush" because they're at least honest a*oles, more than 98% of people who claim its for performance but don't have a clue - they're fooling themselves as much as others :-/
As I mentioned in other thread
1. What proportion of people with straight pipes take them on a track or engage in competitive endeavour
2. What proportion take advanced classes and have the skillset to take advantage of increase performance
3. What proportion put their bike on a dyno before and after to have a foggiest clue if straight pipe does anything
4. What proportion of them tunes the rest of their bike to take advantage of new pipe
5. For how many loud cruisers is performance in any way even remotely an actual consideration? You don't buy a cruiser for speed.
Finally, you can get high flow pipes which are quiet. But that's not really the point is it ;)
I actually respect people who say "I got it because it's loud and cool and gives me a rush" because they're at least honest a*oles, more than 98% of people who claim its for performance but don't have a clue - they're fooling themselves as much as others :-/
Except my PC doesn't wake up the neighborhood.
It might produce EMI though. (if we are picking nits)
Wow, downvoted into obscurity despite factual basis. Overclocking can in fact produce EMI.
I realize that audible noise is very readily recognized as harmful. It’s been studied and proven to be harmful, as have other forms of pollution. I think EMI affects less people directly but it’s still noise.
I realize that audible noise is very readily recognized as harmful. It’s been studied and proven to be harmful, as have other forms of pollution. I think EMI affects less people directly but it’s still noise.
I think you're down voted due to ridiculousness / perceived intellectual dishonesty.
You're putting the argument that overclocking a CPU, due to increased impact, is analogous to putting a straight pipe on a Harley.
I would imagine that difference is sufficient number of orders of magnitude different to be a fundamentally ignorable comparison, and obviously so.
A loud pipe has an immediate and continuous demonstrable negative impact on hundreds and thousands of people per trip.
You would need to show me some reaaally good studies to show that increased (not just baseline) EMI of overclocking is even readily detectable through the faradey cage of computer case and then three houses down the road, and distinguishable in the noise of street transformers, Fridges, laser printers, etc.
You're putting the argument that overclocking a CPU, due to increased impact, is analogous to putting a straight pipe on a Harley.
I would imagine that difference is sufficient number of orders of magnitude different to be a fundamentally ignorable comparison, and obviously so.
A loud pipe has an immediate and continuous demonstrable negative impact on hundreds and thousands of people per trip.
You would need to show me some reaaally good studies to show that increased (not just baseline) EMI of overclocking is even readily detectable through the faradey cage of computer case and then three houses down the road, and distinguishable in the noise of street transformers, Fridges, laser printers, etc.
There are a few good insights here.
If it affects 1% of the population instead of 50% then it’s far more likely to be dismissed.
Also, given other similar noise, adding a little more doesn’t seem like an issue.
None of this is to say that two stroke motors and loud vehicles don’t get on my nerves. Rather, we all have more in common than we think we do.
I used to be considered “sensitive” because I hated all of the latent noise. I feel like I would be considered “reasonable” based on this thread which is now backed by studies showing noise and environmental pollution as having long-term, negative side-effects.
On a technical note, Faraday cages are much better at protecting receiving electronics from outside signals than the other way around. Signals have an easier time leaving a Faraday cage than entering.
If it affects 1% of the population instead of 50% then it’s far more likely to be dismissed.
Also, given other similar noise, adding a little more doesn’t seem like an issue.
None of this is to say that two stroke motors and loud vehicles don’t get on my nerves. Rather, we all have more in common than we think we do.
I used to be considered “sensitive” because I hated all of the latent noise. I feel like I would be considered “reasonable” based on this thread which is now backed by studies showing noise and environmental pollution as having long-term, negative side-effects.
On a technical note, Faraday cages are much better at protecting receiving electronics from outside signals than the other way around. Signals have an easier time leaving a Faraday cage than entering.
>If it affects 1% of the population instead of 50% then it’s far more likely to be dismissed.
I wouldn't call it insight, I'd call it prioritization; but perhaps more to the point, you've provided no evidence whatsoever that overclocking a CPU will affect any proportion of population whatsoever (not 50%, not 1%, not 0.01%), at any distance, in any circumstance. And remember, we're not even saying "whether a computer emits EMI". The claim put forward is that overclocking a PC, say from 3ghz to 3.3ghz, has detectable enough negative impact on people other than the owner / in other households, to be part of this discussion.
Certainly, I currently do not believe so and am dismissing your argument for that reason. You are welcome and indeed encouraged to persuade me otherwise :)
I wouldn't call it insight, I'd call it prioritization; but perhaps more to the point, you've provided no evidence whatsoever that overclocking a CPU will affect any proportion of population whatsoever (not 50%, not 1%, not 0.01%), at any distance, in any circumstance. And remember, we're not even saying "whether a computer emits EMI". The claim put forward is that overclocking a PC, say from 3ghz to 3.3ghz, has detectable enough negative impact on people other than the owner / in other households, to be part of this discussion.
Certainly, I currently do not believe so and am dismissing your argument for that reason. You are welcome and indeed encouraged to persuade me otherwise :)
Me as well, until I bought Forza Horizon and discovered my car had a turbo..
I don't dispute that some loud exhausts are the result of exactly what you describe, but also many are motorheads who have less restrictive exhaust systems for performance reasons or just to enjoy their vehicle (unfortunately sometimes at the expense of other peoples hearing)
I don't dispute that some loud exhausts are the result of exactly what you describe, but also many are motorheads who have less restrictive exhaust systems for performance reasons or just to enjoy their vehicle (unfortunately sometimes at the expense of other peoples hearing)
I have this same theory with road cyclists. I have no problem with someone bicycling to get to work but there are many other types of exercise that don't involve blocking traffic by making other drivers terrified to hit you. It's like doing jumping jacks at a gun range. There must be a dominance factor at play.
Homie, it has nothing to do with you or your work commute. Cyclists have every legal right to be on the road as a car and if a shoulder lane isn’t safe enough to cycle on then it’s safest and recommended and the law to take up a whole lane to ensure assholes like you don’t risk their safety/lives by trying to squeeze past them in the same lane. Best to just treat them as a car and try to practice patience.
> assholes like you
Less of this, please.
Less of this, please.
Seconded, and thank you for pointing that out. Apologies for the terrible juju to everybody who read that. Nothing good comes out of outbursts like that, especially on the internet.
But why would someone choose road cycling for exercise over running on a sidewalk? Road cycling is very expensive and inconveniences people.
Running on the sidewalk inconveniences people too.
Cars are usually more expensive than bycicles and inconvenience people too.
Don't get me wrong, I've got both a car and a bicycle, not 100% for road cycling but count it as if it was (it's a gravel bike.)
For me cycling beats running 100-0. I can easily pedal 100+ km but I can't run 100 meters, too tiresome. Furthermore I see 100 km of the world vs a small area around my home.
Ultimately it's all subjective. Each of us likes something different and it's OK.
Don't get me wrong, I've got both a car and a bicycle, not 100% for road cycling but count it as if it was (it's a gravel bike.)
For me cycling beats running 100-0. I can easily pedal 100+ km but I can't run 100 meters, too tiresome. Furthermore I see 100 km of the world vs a small area around my home.
Ultimately it's all subjective. Each of us likes something different and it's OK.
"There must be a dominance factor at play."
It is fine to speculate, but "must" is a strong assumption. Your analogy is also based on flawed data. Yes, when riding on streets there is a chance of getting killed, but getting regular exercise reduces your chance of dying for other reasons. There are many studies that demonstrate this. Here is one:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2237214-why-the-health-...
https://www.bmj.com/content/357/bmj.j1456
Tell me what you think the benefit:risk ratio is of doing jumping jacks at a gun range.
I have worked from home for a long time, but 15+ years ago I commuted by bike about 12 miles each way three times a week when the weather was good. Dominance had nothing to do with my choice to bike there.
I could ride there by bike in 45 minutes, or I could drive there in 25 minutes (lots of stop and go). Same on the return trip. My mental calculus was I got 90 minutes of exercise for an incremental time expense of 40 minutes. That I was also not polluting was a bonus.
The nearest accident I had ever was one day when I was on connector road that had recently been widened and hadn't yet picked up a lot of use. Despite there being no traffic at that moment, I've always 100% obeyed traffic laws, so I stood over my bike waiting for the red light to change. About 20 seconds into it a pickup truck came screeching to a stop just about five feet behind me - he literally locked the tires and left skid marks. Guess what his reaction was: to shout and scream to the point of spitting that I was lucky to be alive and that I wan an asshole for biking on the road. I still don't know if he saw me all along and it was a calculated dominance display, or if he was daydreaming and really did nearly cream me.
It is fine to speculate, but "must" is a strong assumption. Your analogy is also based on flawed data. Yes, when riding on streets there is a chance of getting killed, but getting regular exercise reduces your chance of dying for other reasons. There are many studies that demonstrate this. Here is one:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2237214-why-the-health-...
https://www.bmj.com/content/357/bmj.j1456
Tell me what you think the benefit:risk ratio is of doing jumping jacks at a gun range.
I have worked from home for a long time, but 15+ years ago I commuted by bike about 12 miles each way three times a week when the weather was good. Dominance had nothing to do with my choice to bike there.
I could ride there by bike in 45 minutes, or I could drive there in 25 minutes (lots of stop and go). Same on the return trip. My mental calculus was I got 90 minutes of exercise for an incremental time expense of 40 minutes. That I was also not polluting was a bonus.
The nearest accident I had ever was one day when I was on connector road that had recently been widened and hadn't yet picked up a lot of use. Despite there being no traffic at that moment, I've always 100% obeyed traffic laws, so I stood over my bike waiting for the red light to change. About 20 seconds into it a pickup truck came screeching to a stop just about five feet behind me - he literally locked the tires and left skid marks. Guess what his reaction was: to shout and scream to the point of spitting that I was lucky to be alive and that I wan an asshole for biking on the road. I still don't know if he saw me all along and it was a calculated dominance display, or if he was daydreaming and really did nearly cream me.
I know my opinion is unpopular. I just don't trust drivers enough to pay attention when they have 3-5k lbs more weight than I do. Much safer to run on the sidewalk and I don't bother anyone.
Also...car? 1 person in it. Bike? 1 person on it. Why do you assume you take precedence?
I don't have aftermarket pipes - but your post is clearly from perspective of someone who doesn't ride. Sound is an essential part of the riding thrill, riding my bike past 10k RPM gives me F1 sound and insane rush. I suspect riding an electric motorcycle would be much less thrilling that way and make me more aware that I'm on a suicide machine.
I regularly get small children approach me on motorcycle and want to pull the throttle, then get scared, then want to do it again, there's something primal about that, it's (mostly) not about other people.
I regularly get small children approach me on motorcycle and want to pull the throttle, then get scared, then want to do it again, there's something primal about that, it's (mostly) not about other people.
If you're knowingly annoying people for your own pleasure, I don't much care what your intentions are. You're either intentionally mean or too self centered to consider your actions effects on the people around you.
I don't disagree with the conclusion but it's equally self centered to think someone is doing something just to annoy you - so if you just said "loud pipes annoy me" I have no problem with that statement, if you say "bikers are installing loud pipes to annoy me/others" well that's just wrong and I'm giving you insight into what the actuall motivation is.
Or, more generously, just young and immature and not completely cognizant of the impact of your actions on others.
In a different lifetime I had a few bikes including a TL1000R that was just plain intoxicating to ride with aftermarket pipes.
There is no way in hell I could do that to my neighbors at this stage of my life, however, and I often cringe at the actions of my younger self. Nowadays, I refuse to even use gas powered garden tools for noise (and environmental) reasons.
In a different lifetime I had a few bikes including a TL1000R that was just plain intoxicating to ride with aftermarket pipes.
There is no way in hell I could do that to my neighbors at this stage of my life, however, and I often cringe at the actions of my younger self. Nowadays, I refuse to even use gas powered garden tools for noise (and environmental) reasons.
I don’t ride, but I’ve often considered it as a hobby. Even still, I wish people who just really like noise would get themselves some headphones instead of disrupting everyone else, damaging their hearing, interrupting their (even indoor) conversations, waking sleeping children, etc. It’s incredibly selfish behavior and I can only imagine people who behave this way are compensating for something.
I almost buy the “loud pipes save lives” angle but if you need to deafen others to protect yourself maybe motorcycling just isn’t an institution worth keeping around. That said, I don’t think it needs to come to that.
I almost buy the “loud pipes save lives” angle but if you need to deafen others to protect yourself maybe motorcycling just isn’t an institution worth keeping around. That said, I don’t think it needs to come to that.
People aren’t deafened by them, only annoyed. That said, I can’t stand loud bikes!!
Loud pipes argument is bullshit in my book, I've been riding for 5 years now and never had a traffic accident, defensive riding is the only way to be "safe" (you're never really safe on a bike, even a little gravel on the road can mean you end up in a coma), relying on other drivers having to notice you is a pointless gamble, just assume they aren't going to and drive accordingly. Also I notice people get startled by a loud bike approaching - and the last thing you want is to startle an insecure driver.
"Being an asshole is an essential part of the riding thrill." Fixed that for you.
There are plenty of places where it's "safe" (in the not endangering others sense) to ride at high speed and loud
If you've ever supertucked on a road bike and broken the speed limit down a hill you'll see how little sound has to do with it.
As I said (GP here) - I rode motorcycles since 2008; I'll grant you that sound is absolutely part of the fun - but loud aftermarket exhausts, detonating straight pipes, etc which are the subject of the topic here -- I feel the world's balance is overwhelmingly on the negative in the "joy to self" vs "average impact to others".
I understand many people put the aftermarket pipes "for themselves", at least consciously, or at least claim so - but I feel at best, it's a degree of self-centerdness to not realize impact on others. I see it on Subaru forums too - fellow WRX/STi owners moaning about their neighbour's complaints and cops stopping them and people giving them dirty looks etc etc - obliviously blind that it was themselves who brought in on by installing ridiculous loud exhausts. A factory exhaust on my bikes gave me plenty of thrill, and while I did put a high-flow cat on my Scoobie, I searched for an exhaust with nice sound but quieter actual dBs than stock. Few things are B&W - but there is a loudness at which point it really really is about others.
(note that when you say "past 10k RPM", it sounds like you likely have a sportsbike, and as you say a stock one; those can be loud at high revs, but generally speaking the loudest bikes in my experience tend to be modified cruisers and wanna-be Harleys.
Also note that rider may not always get straight opinions from friends, depending who wants to fight what battle when - e.g. last summer, a rider was revving his throttle at a friends' cottage and boasting about his aftermarket pipes; given we were both guests, I politely nodded and meandered away... but everything for the rest of the evening confirmed the image I formed the moment I heard his pipes :-/)
I understand many people put the aftermarket pipes "for themselves", at least consciously, or at least claim so - but I feel at best, it's a degree of self-centerdness to not realize impact on others. I see it on Subaru forums too - fellow WRX/STi owners moaning about their neighbour's complaints and cops stopping them and people giving them dirty looks etc etc - obliviously blind that it was themselves who brought in on by installing ridiculous loud exhausts. A factory exhaust on my bikes gave me plenty of thrill, and while I did put a high-flow cat on my Scoobie, I searched for an exhaust with nice sound but quieter actual dBs than stock. Few things are B&W - but there is a loudness at which point it really really is about others.
(note that when you say "past 10k RPM", it sounds like you likely have a sportsbike, and as you say a stock one; those can be loud at high revs, but generally speaking the loudest bikes in my experience tend to be modified cruisers and wanna-be Harleys.
Also note that rider may not always get straight opinions from friends, depending who wants to fight what battle when - e.g. last summer, a rider was revving his throttle at a friends' cottage and boasting about his aftermarket pipes; given we were both guests, I politely nodded and meandered away... but everything for the rest of the evening confirmed the image I formed the moment I heard his pipes :-/)
I'm not trying to defend anyone - I'm just saying that looking at it from the perspective of "they are just doing it to show off" etc. is not really my experience (there's some of that for sure)
I'm not a fan of aftermarket exhausts, stock one is plenty loud for me and doesn't disturb anyone while I'm riding normaly. I especially dislike the grandpa chopper bikes that sound like tanks, like you said my sports bike gets insane at >9k RPM - but I don't ride insane in populated areas.
I'm not a fan of aftermarket exhausts, stock one is plenty loud for me and doesn't disturb anyone while I'm riding normaly. I especially dislike the grandpa chopper bikes that sound like tanks, like you said my sports bike gets insane at >9k RPM - but I don't ride insane in populated areas.
I think we are likely indeed converging to a point of agreement.
Things are usually on a spectrum and not binary; I agree that part of the thrill of ride is the sensation - vibration, noise of wind and engine, gravity forces, etc - and certainly manufacturers of both performance bikes and cars frequently tune the engine and particularly exhaust for desired image and sound.
I still maintain though that there is a wrong side/portion of that spectrum, and that e.g. a straight pipe on a Harley does far more negative impact on others than positive impact (real or perceived performance, rush, etc) on the rider.
Things are usually on a spectrum and not binary; I agree that part of the thrill of ride is the sensation - vibration, noise of wind and engine, gravity forces, etc - and certainly manufacturers of both performance bikes and cars frequently tune the engine and particularly exhaust for desired image and sound.
I still maintain though that there is a wrong side/portion of that spectrum, and that e.g. a straight pipe on a Harley does far more negative impact on others than positive impact (real or perceived performance, rush, etc) on the rider.
Sure.. I get a kick out of twisting the throttle on my Yamaha a couple times but I totally disagree that it is an essential part of the experience. If you could sell me a completely silent but very powerful motorcycle I would buy it. And even if you are thrilled by the sound, there comes a point (when you put straight pipes on) where it clearly becomes less about whether the rider can hear their own bike and more about whether everyone else can. So As someone who has spend hundreds of thousands of kilometres on a motorcycle I totally agree with grandparent post here, once it gets to that point where you are changing your exhaust to make it louder, it out is mostly about egos and images.
IDK - I had a few biker friends (before I moved last time, pretty much stopped riding since my son was born, going to sell the bike any day now), they would use DB-killer but if we went off riding twisties they would pull it out and just enjoy the insanity. There was one guy who would ride without dbkiller all the time, he was a dick in general, so there's that.
In my life, the most clear & obvious example of negative externalities is loud vehicles. I'm saying this as someone who would cut 90% of regulation: but I think anyone on a public street with a vehicle louder than a UPS truck should get fine. Enforced by a camera and microphone array.
The noise and the exhaust are the main reasons I don't like populated areas, so I am glad both will probably go away in my lifetime.
I have lived in both Manhattan and the rural midwest. The consistent, droning cacophony of the city pales in comparison to the suburban lifted truck with aftermarket exhaust that wakes up the entire neighborhood every morning at 6:15am.
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How do you feel about airplanes?
As a private pilot: The same. I always took extra care to cut back on the engine after takeoff, crossing the homes near the airport more slowly and without ascending much. And I avoided pristine landscapes or at least also slowed down a lot for a much quieter engine and prop. Because when I was at home or in some national park I hated those noisy small planes as much as the next guy.
With a propeller the engine is not alone in producing noise, the propeller can easily be worse. Especially when you are perpendicular underneath an airplane crossing above.
Still, what I find even worse is that general aviation still uses leaded fuel. I know this is so "esoteric" for most people that few really care, because it is so abstract. As someone who went through a heavy metal diagnosis and chelator treatment (university clinic, lab proven exposure) I know that even the tiniest amounts still have an impact. Not a clinical impact, you are not sick. But your brain and everything works a bit worse. With tiny amounts adding up over decades any small problems you get will be attributed to "age", "stress", "it's in your head". Because while we know, statistically, that there is an impact (that is why the _medical_, threshold for lead, and others, is zero), we are unable to make any useful statements for individuals. Which means for any given person the problem does not exist, and for the population level it remains an abstract threat.
So noise is one thing, but spreading lead over the landscape - yes in tiny amounts, but I believe it still adds up and matters - to me is even more outrageous.
I apologize, for years I spread lead over some, or many?, of you guys here when I flew around the Bay Area. At the time I completely ignored the "LL" on my avgas. Only after my own clinical encounter did I realize what it meant, suddenly it was more than just a technical term.
https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/avgas/
With a propeller the engine is not alone in producing noise, the propeller can easily be worse. Especially when you are perpendicular underneath an airplane crossing above.
Still, what I find even worse is that general aviation still uses leaded fuel. I know this is so "esoteric" for most people that few really care, because it is so abstract. As someone who went through a heavy metal diagnosis and chelator treatment (university clinic, lab proven exposure) I know that even the tiniest amounts still have an impact. Not a clinical impact, you are not sick. But your brain and everything works a bit worse. With tiny amounts adding up over decades any small problems you get will be attributed to "age", "stress", "it's in your head". Because while we know, statistically, that there is an impact (that is why the _medical_, threshold for lead, and others, is zero), we are unable to make any useful statements for individuals. Which means for any given person the problem does not exist, and for the population level it remains an abstract threat.
So noise is one thing, but spreading lead over the landscape - yes in tiny amounts, but I believe it still adds up and matters - to me is even more outrageous.
I apologize, for years I spread lead over some, or many?, of you guys here when I flew around the Bay Area. At the time I completely ignored the "LL" on my avgas. Only after my own clinical encounter did I realize what it meant, suddenly it was more than just a technical term.
https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/avgas/
Student pilot in the Bay Area here.
I completely agree. My CFI has spent time making sure I understand how to reduce noise impacts of my flying. I live out in the hills which means planes and motorcycles are the only noise intrusions I get on a consistent basis. I wish I could do more for the noise issue as a pilot.
As for the lead issue, I had a small crush on an experimental that is being developed. The company is using a brand-new engine that can technically burn mogas (Motor Vehicle Gas) but the wings are constructed such that putting any ethanol in the tank is a severe safety issue. This combined with the fact that 100LL and Jet Fuel (diesel) are usually the only two fuels available, it seems like a lock-in for more lead consumption.
While there is some good news in the lead/noise department, it's not taking hold as much as I think it aught to: there are electric trainer aircraft produced now that provide very low operating costs, much less noise and release no lead. Unfortunately, I was reading that the performance characteristics make them a less desirable training aircraft than a Cessna 172 so adoption is slow.
Question for parent: I know the FAA's avgas initiative has been around for a while, do you know of any significant progress they have made in the area?
I completely agree. My CFI has spent time making sure I understand how to reduce noise impacts of my flying. I live out in the hills which means planes and motorcycles are the only noise intrusions I get on a consistent basis. I wish I could do more for the noise issue as a pilot.
As for the lead issue, I had a small crush on an experimental that is being developed. The company is using a brand-new engine that can technically burn mogas (Motor Vehicle Gas) but the wings are constructed such that putting any ethanol in the tank is a severe safety issue. This combined with the fact that 100LL and Jet Fuel (diesel) are usually the only two fuels available, it seems like a lock-in for more lead consumption.
While there is some good news in the lead/noise department, it's not taking hold as much as I think it aught to: there are electric trainer aircraft produced now that provide very low operating costs, much less noise and release no lead. Unfortunately, I was reading that the performance characteristics make them a less desirable training aircraft than a Cessna 172 so adoption is slow.
Question for parent: I know the FAA's avgas initiative has been around for a while, do you know of any significant progress they have made in the area?
Is the use of leaded gas just because most small planes are old? Do new planes still require leaded gas? It seems absurd that avaiation gas is still leaded when it was phases out decades ago everywhere else.
It's the last hold-out of leaded gasoline in the US that I'm aware of and the landscape is complex to say the least. Some aircraft engines still require 100LL to perform within spec but most modern engine designs can also accept high octane "mogas" or motor-vehicle gas. mogas is also often not available inside an airport so getting it requires a vehicle and gas-cans.
Fun fact: most small GA aircraft still use the exact same engine technology that they were developed with despite needing to occasionally replace the engine. Automobile engines have seen a lot of advances in the last 60 years but any given Cessna 172 you see in the sky is likely still working in exactly the same way as in the 1960's.
Fun fact: most small GA aircraft still use the exact same engine technology that they were developed with despite needing to occasionally replace the engine. Automobile engines have seen a lot of advances in the last 60 years but any given Cessna 172 you see in the sky is likely still working in exactly the same way as in the 1960's.
As someone who was a motorcycle safety instructor, which required a ton of training and memorization of safety statistics for a 20 something year old in order to teach new riders for a few summers during college - the numbers agree with your sentiment.
Loud pipes don’t do squat. All the noise is behind you, no one hears you coming they only hear you going, and at that point they hate you.
Now… I have an admission to make, and public apologies to give. The pipes on my current primary motorcycle are the exact same pipes I had on my previous motorcycle but they are significantly louder and it was way too late to do anything about it that wasn’t going to cost thousands before I realized.
They are not jerk levels loud, but they have enough rumble to them that I essentially do everything I can to idle out of my neighborhood in the morning (I’m a block in from an agricultural road). They don’t really reach “Harley level loud” until I’m at least 85% throttle and on my bike that is basically drag racing level of throttle position.
Here’s the thing- they were incredibly expensive and my bike is completely, _perfectly_, tuned for them with new FI programming, air intake, and full dyno tuning. No accel/decel pops, etc.
So- neighbors, world, I’m truly sorry. When I replace this bike I’ll make sure it doesn’t happen again. Until then, know I feel like a jerk every morning in my new neighborhood basically coasting to the main road.
Loud pipes don’t do squat. All the noise is behind you, no one hears you coming they only hear you going, and at that point they hate you.
Now… I have an admission to make, and public apologies to give. The pipes on my current primary motorcycle are the exact same pipes I had on my previous motorcycle but they are significantly louder and it was way too late to do anything about it that wasn’t going to cost thousands before I realized.
They are not jerk levels loud, but they have enough rumble to them that I essentially do everything I can to idle out of my neighborhood in the morning (I’m a block in from an agricultural road). They don’t really reach “Harley level loud” until I’m at least 85% throttle and on my bike that is basically drag racing level of throttle position.
Here’s the thing- they were incredibly expensive and my bike is completely, _perfectly_, tuned for them with new FI programming, air intake, and full dyno tuning. No accel/decel pops, etc.
So- neighbors, world, I’m truly sorry. When I replace this bike I’ll make sure it doesn’t happen again. Until then, know I feel like a jerk every morning in my new neighborhood basically coasting to the main road.
As a bicyclist, loud motorcycles are the fscking worst. They're deafening and extremely distracting, which is extra terrible if anything complicated is going on. Which there often is, because people on loud bikes are often driving like fscking idiots, dodging between cars who end up nearly crowding me off the road.
I had a motorcycle pass between me and a car while I was in a bike lane. Revved his engine while he was right next to me. Scared the daylights out of me. It sounded like a bomb had gone off. Seriously, screw motorcyclists with loud pipes that drive like idiots.
The keyword is idiot, not loud pipes. To be fair sometimes we cyclists also behave like idiots on the road. Same thing when we get off our bike, get into a car and drive. Of course an idiot with a needless loud exhaust is far worse than a silent one, I agree on that.
Where I live, they have started adding noise pollution cameras in the city center. They don't give ticket, just display the noise level and a smiley, but I'd love for them to become active and more common. It's so annoying being woken up at night because of some kind of really loud exhaust noise.
I'd love it if there were automated tickets for this. But California can't even get it together to allow automated speeding tickets, a bill for this just got killed.
In SOMA in San Francisco I'll often hear motorcycles drive by that are so loud they set off car alarms along their path.
And don't get me started on the cost/benefit of car alarms.
In SOMA in San Francisco I'll often hear motorcycles drive by that are so loud they set off car alarms along their path.
And don't get me started on the cost/benefit of car alarms.
I used to work in a busy downtown area of the east bay and we used to get a lot of the loud bike with loud stereo rolling through. What other possible motivation could there be for such a thing than wanting the attention? South Park hit the nail on the head with their loud motorcycle episode.
As for the cameras, I’ll echo the sentiments of a sibling comment. You don’t want them. I lived in AZ in the mid 00’s when these things were everywhere. They mostly serve to disrupt the natural flow of traffic and caused people to make dangerous sudden stops when they should have proceeded through a yellow lights. Also, many are operated by third parties who take a cut and charge a fee to run them. If they fail to produce enough revenue they become a financial liability to the city, which will either monkey with signal time to increase ticket revenue or simply remove the camera.
As for the cameras, I’ll echo the sentiments of a sibling comment. You don’t want them. I lived in AZ in the mid 00’s when these things were everywhere. They mostly serve to disrupt the natural flow of traffic and caused people to make dangerous sudden stops when they should have proceeded through a yellow lights. Also, many are operated by third parties who take a cut and charge a fee to run them. If they fail to produce enough revenue they become a financial liability to the city, which will either monkey with signal time to increase ticket revenue or simply remove the camera.
>What other possible motivation could there be for such a thing than wanting the attention?
To be fair, convertibles are similar. The wind noise of the open air is very loud when moving at speed, so the stereo must be that loud to compensate. There are some setups that will increase/decrease the volume appropriately as the speed changes, but that's not always the case. So as the bike is sitting at a light, the sound is still blaring at the same volume. Maybe the rider is still an asshat for not lowering the volume, but I'd go so far as saying their an asshat for refuting the concept the sound of the ride is the experience by blasting choons.
To be fair, convertibles are similar. The wind noise of the open air is very loud when moving at speed, so the stereo must be that loud to compensate. There are some setups that will increase/decrease the volume appropriately as the speed changes, but that's not always the case. So as the bike is sitting at a light, the sound is still blaring at the same volume. Maybe the rider is still an asshat for not lowering the volume, but I'd go so far as saying their an asshat for refuting the concept the sound of the ride is the experience by blasting choons.
Once you’ve been the victim of the Kafkaesque process of being victimized by a computer error asserting your car didn’t pay a toll (“here is an image of your car including a different make/model and utterly dissimilar license plate number, PAY!”) you might understand the reluctance for more automation by California.
I noticed that people on more powerful bikes crash way more often for their own lack of driving skill, than the other way around.
Lost count to seeing scenes like kids on H2Rs "crashing" into something at like just above pedestrian speeds.
It takes a lot of skill to drive a powerful, and heavy motorcycle. It's definitely should not be your first, or even second machine.
I'm myself on two-wheelers for 15 years still feeling that I am about to fly off a seat even on a relatively tame 300CC scooter.
Lost count to seeing scenes like kids on H2Rs "crashing" into something at like just above pedestrian speeds.
It takes a lot of skill to drive a powerful, and heavy motorcycle. It's definitely should not be your first, or even second machine.
I'm myself on two-wheelers for 15 years still feeling that I am about to fly off a seat even on a relatively tame 300CC scooter.
I would support all that.
When starting out, take that weekend course your local college offers - and try all the bikes in a controlled safe environment. I was shocked how much I didn't want a sports bike - the posture and low speed maneuverability were horrid. I also didn't like cruisers personally, didn't feel in control leaning back. I turned into a lifelong standard posture guy - whether city bike or adventure or dirt/supermoto... But point is, find out what feels right for you, rather than get a 750cc superbike as your first ride based on specs or review or what you think may work well.
I had fun going full throttle redline on... My cbr125, back in the day:D. More so than on some twitchy overpowered bike where I feared touching the throttle.
When starting out, take that weekend course your local college offers - and try all the bikes in a controlled safe environment. I was shocked how much I didn't want a sports bike - the posture and low speed maneuverability were horrid. I also didn't like cruisers personally, didn't feel in control leaning back. I turned into a lifelong standard posture guy - whether city bike or adventure or dirt/supermoto... But point is, find out what feels right for you, rather than get a 750cc superbike as your first ride based on specs or review or what you think may work well.
I had fun going full throttle redline on... My cbr125, back in the day:D. More so than on some twitchy overpowered bike where I feared touching the throttle.
Fwiw, in California it’s customary to do a day long motorcycle safety course in lieu of taking an on road test with the DMV, which is noted as having some aspects that are unusually difficult.
I did both, but the rules have changed since then. When I did the CA DMV motorcycle test it was super easy. Ride straight between two white lines, then around a full circle between the lines, then back between another set of lines - all you have to do is stay in the lines. Took all of about 1 minute. The trick was to use a small motorcycle, you need a 250cc or above for M1 so I borrowed a 250. Piece of cake.
When I did it (long ago) I think there was a cone weave as well. I started off thinking that test was a poor representation of what riding was actually like, but came to understand that for a quick test, it probably mapped pretty well to basic MC skills.
Its been 30 years for me, maybe I just dont remember that part. I only recall the second part here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H572hoMVZXY
I did it about 15 years ago, but I think this is what I was referring to - I had just purchased an SV650 and was told the test would be virtually impossible to do with the bike (and most bikes) due to some low speed maneuverability portion that was only feasible with the small cruisers they use in the safety schools.
My instructor claimed the DMV had done this on purpose to encourage people to take the safety course, how they can't force people to do one by law so this is how they got around it.
My instructor claimed the DMV had done this on purpose to encourage people to take the safety course, how they can't force people to do one by law so this is how they got around it.
I rode moto-x as a teenager for about 4 years so I would, back then, class myself as reasonably skilled. Yet the first time on a proper big road bike scared the hell out of me and I never went any further. From then on it was 4 wheels all the way.
Not surprised in the least that there are so many accidents.
Not surprised in the least that there are so many accidents.
I recently (2 years ago) made motorcycle license (Poland) and bought 600cc Honda CBF600s.
During training we had to switch motorcycles (we started on 250cc, then after a dozen hours moved to 600cc which is required by Polish law to pass the exam).
I have felt comfortable on 250cc but moving to 600cc felt like I had to learn everything again from the start.
On 250 (140kg?) I could throw my weight around and cause motorcycle to do stuff while the same no longer seems to work on 600 (210kg?).
Overall I feel better and safer on 600cc because at highway speeds it does exactly what I need it to do and place myself exactly where I want without feeling that it is overpowered and that slight mistake with the throttle is going to cause me to loose control of it.
I tried a dozen different motorcycles from 125cc to 1000cc before I made my final choice.
One disclaimer is that I am rather cautious driver/rider. As an example I never drive/ride fast in relation to other drivers. I may ride faster but only so much so I still am able to react if they make something stupid. I also spend a lot of effort learning to drive/ride safer.
When it comes to pratical matters I think that for safety it doesn't matter much how large your bike is, as long as you are properly trained. 125cc or 1000cc, your prospects in an accident are roughly the same.
Smaller bikes (125cc or less) may offer better handling if you are not well trained and you panic but on the other hand they might be less agile in traffic where it is important to constantly place you away from blind spots of other drivers, etc.
The only danger comes from speed and acceleration. But if you are an adult and can restrain yourself to safe speeds I don't think larger motorcycle is less safe.
What I mean is that it is not the size of the motorcycle but the driver that causes it to be unsafe. And unsafe drivers may prefer to choose larger motorcycles because it allows them to ride faster.
During training we had to switch motorcycles (we started on 250cc, then after a dozen hours moved to 600cc which is required by Polish law to pass the exam).
I have felt comfortable on 250cc but moving to 600cc felt like I had to learn everything again from the start.
On 250 (140kg?) I could throw my weight around and cause motorcycle to do stuff while the same no longer seems to work on 600 (210kg?).
Overall I feel better and safer on 600cc because at highway speeds it does exactly what I need it to do and place myself exactly where I want without feeling that it is overpowered and that slight mistake with the throttle is going to cause me to loose control of it.
I tried a dozen different motorcycles from 125cc to 1000cc before I made my final choice.
One disclaimer is that I am rather cautious driver/rider. As an example I never drive/ride fast in relation to other drivers. I may ride faster but only so much so I still am able to react if they make something stupid. I also spend a lot of effort learning to drive/ride safer.
When it comes to pratical matters I think that for safety it doesn't matter much how large your bike is, as long as you are properly trained. 125cc or 1000cc, your prospects in an accident are roughly the same.
Smaller bikes (125cc or less) may offer better handling if you are not well trained and you panic but on the other hand they might be less agile in traffic where it is important to constantly place you away from blind spots of other drivers, etc.
The only danger comes from speed and acceleration. But if you are an adult and can restrain yourself to safe speeds I don't think larger motorcycle is less safe.
What I mean is that it is not the size of the motorcycle but the driver that causes it to be unsafe. And unsafe drivers may prefer to choose larger motorcycles because it allows them to ride faster.
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Bigger more powerful bikes usually have flatter torque curves which make the bike easier to control.
I ride such a "bigger more powerful bike with a flat torque curve", and there are two issues:
1. As a sibling said, there's the issue of weight. If you're inexperienced, it WILL bite you in the ass. Especially since the engine being very powerful and having great brakes, when "just starting slowly" it won't feel heavy. Hell, mine gives you the feeling it stands upright on itself. But try braking a bit harder while maneuvering and getting it tilted, and you better expect the 300 kg to want to get down.
2. As per 1, powerful engine + heft + (usually) great suspension give you a bike that feels very, very safe. Plus the torque from way down low never seems to quite "rush" you since you don't have to rev it. So it gives you confidence. Except that even though you don't feel like going fast, you actually are going fast. So you get fairly quickly in deep water, and everything is great while the sea is calm. The sea floor is right there! But you never know. Ride a bit too fast in a turn, and you better hope there aren't any trees around...
1. As a sibling said, there's the issue of weight. If you're inexperienced, it WILL bite you in the ass. Especially since the engine being very powerful and having great brakes, when "just starting slowly" it won't feel heavy. Hell, mine gives you the feeling it stands upright on itself. But try braking a bit harder while maneuvering and getting it tilted, and you better expect the 300 kg to want to get down.
2. As per 1, powerful engine + heft + (usually) great suspension give you a bike that feels very, very safe. Plus the torque from way down low never seems to quite "rush" you since you don't have to rev it. So it gives you confidence. Except that even though you don't feel like going fast, you actually are going fast. So you get fairly quickly in deep water, and everything is great while the sea is calm. The sea floor is right there! But you never know. Ride a bit too fast in a turn, and you better hope there aren't any trees around...
Top heavy, steep rake, 200kg+ sport bikes are completely unridable in a city no matter what the torque control is.
I think that stands to a point (the twitchiest bike I ever rode was a 400CC supermoto), but depends on details and circumstance. Besides throttle control though, their weight may be harder to handle for newbies in e.g. stop and go traffic or narrow / twisty streets....
Nothing brings out my violent psychotic tic faster than an asshole with a loud vehicle.
Road rage is a terrible thing, nothing brings out intolerance like a metal cage. Try to abstract it, see road rage as a thing in itself, don't let it in. If you get there, all of a sudden you don't mind what or how other people drive.
If you don't get there, it's only you that suffers. That tic can't express itself in your self-imposed cage.
Being a pedestrian I get the raging tic for loud vehicles easily without any metal cage assistance. And sure I try to not get annoyed by their insane noise pollution and disruption of pleasant conversations or enjoyment of sound in a large radius. But fundamentally I believe that as the driver of an unnecessarily loud vehicle you* are an arsehole.
*you as in the driver, I am aware that the parent poster is not necessarily driving a loud vehicle.
*you as in the driver, I am aware that the parent poster is not necessarily driving a loud vehicle.
I completely agree road rage is a terrible thing; I agree we are all responsible for our own behaviour; and as drivers we should not allow such things get to us.
But a needlessly loud motorcycle, particularly the kinds that "detonate/explode" on shifts/off-gas, will make me jump and annoy no matter what I'm doing - reading a book, having a coffee, mowing the lawn, going for a walk, playing with my kid, whatever... especially since unlike some similarly annoying sounds (Snoring, anyone :P), it is 100% purely intentional. This rider went out of their way to make it such, knowingly and willingly they spent money time & effort.
But a needlessly loud motorcycle, particularly the kinds that "detonate/explode" on shifts/off-gas, will make me jump and annoy no matter what I'm doing - reading a book, having a coffee, mowing the lawn, going for a walk, playing with my kid, whatever... especially since unlike some similarly annoying sounds (Snoring, anyone :P), it is 100% purely intentional. This rider went out of their way to make it such, knowingly and willingly they spent money time & effort.
This is wrong. Many bikes have pops and cracks like this stock, straight from the factory floor. So do not assume the owner went out of his way to make it so.
Perhaps you should get some therapy. Healthy individuals do not get that worked up over minor things like loud vehicles. It passes you and it is over. Or do loud vehicles sit outside your home all day and night?
I can't even stand listening to it on my own bikes, particularly if I'm slabbing it somewhere on a freeway at a steady speed, the racket is insufferable after 15 or 20 minutes, even with plugs and a full face helmet. There seems to be a prevailing masochism among this flavor of biker, who often add ape hangers and then ride around pretending to be comfortable.
Hah, I always wondered about those and didn't know the name ("Ape Hangers") until now... feels like my arms would lose circulation and muscles would hurt from that position! I assumed I'm just a wimp :P
I see a few posts now that I know what to search for that it "relieves strain on wrists and arms", but honestly, I think standard riding position (city / adventure / touring bikes) has the most natural and relaxed body position overall, as long as you can adjust it to your body size and proportions.
I see a few posts now that I know what to search for that it "relieves strain on wrists and arms", but honestly, I think standard riding position (city / adventure / touring bikes) has the most natural and relaxed body position overall, as long as you can adjust it to your body size and proportions.
I think you're right- it might be more comfortable than, say, a race bike, but when I think about what it feels like to have my arms in the air for a length of time (like working on an overhead light fixture or something), I can only imagine what it'd be like trying to ride with a set of those goofy bars for an hour.
My favorite bumper sticker goes something like, "If loud pipes save lives, imagine how it'd be if you learned how to ride the thing"
Modifying the exhaust can add power which is why you never see stock exhausts at the track. But for most riders, the performance improvement is barely noticable.
I'm saying this as someone that had an aftermarket exhaust on all of 3 of my street bikes and one of my dirt bikes.
I'm saying this as someone that had an aftermarket exhaust on all of 3 of my street bikes and one of my dirt bikes.
Yes it can, but as you hint yourself:
1. How many aftermarket exhausts actually add meaningful performance
2. How many people actually need / notice / use whatever performance they gain
vs
3. How many people, consciously or not, admittedly or not, just get it for bling and sound
Very few people with aftermarket parts take their bike or car on the track or competition. Very few have training to take advantage of it.
(I don't speak from a theoretical high horse - I spent thousands of dollars myself to add power to my WRX, before I finally realized that 1. Stock car was already faster than myself, and started investing in lessons/training/practice runs, and 2. The hands-down best investment I made in my car was a $200 aftermarket (additional) multi-point seat harness, as it stabilized my body/arms and enabled a much much finer degree of control. If I were to modify a car today, I'd start with suspension/control, not engine/power. For bikes, even more so - every bike I ever owned, from 50 scooter to 400cc supermoto to 500cc adventure and 750cc touring, can do amazing things in hands of a professional rider and can do far far less in my own hands; modifying it for "performance", for 98% of riders, is pointless and we're only fooling ourselves )
1. How many aftermarket exhausts actually add meaningful performance
2. How many people actually need / notice / use whatever performance they gain
vs
3. How many people, consciously or not, admittedly or not, just get it for bling and sound
Very few people with aftermarket parts take their bike or car on the track or competition. Very few have training to take advantage of it.
(I don't speak from a theoretical high horse - I spent thousands of dollars myself to add power to my WRX, before I finally realized that 1. Stock car was already faster than myself, and started investing in lessons/training/practice runs, and 2. The hands-down best investment I made in my car was a $200 aftermarket (additional) multi-point seat harness, as it stabilized my body/arms and enabled a much much finer degree of control. If I were to modify a car today, I'd start with suspension/control, not engine/power. For bikes, even more so - every bike I ever owned, from 50 scooter to 400cc supermoto to 500cc adventure and 750cc touring, can do amazing things in hands of a professional rider and can do far far less in my own hands; modifying it for "performance", for 98% of riders, is pointless and we're only fooling ourselves )
Lose 5 kgs and you'll have gained more performance without annoying other people.
Most aftermarket exhausts will drop far more than 5kg from your bike weight.
Yup... living on a 1st floor in a major city, I've grown a deep hatred for those with loud motorcycle/car engines/exhausts/soundsystems. It's unnecessary and ruins quality of life/productivity. The noise pollution is already bad enough in the city with everything else
Love this South Park Episode.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipDmsxQVxIM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipDmsxQVxIM
They have their place in hell next to the quad bike owners,who think it's ok to use them in urban areas. None of them are cool, only complete douches.
Quads do no harm, bit less co2 than a car, bit more exposure to the elements.
Buying two vehicles is considerably less eco. More noisy than electric but better range and more fun.
If you can't appreciate other people having fun, of course, it's lose, lose.
It is fun until you live next to a trail that becomes a quad highway in the weekend. I used to and I was really looking forward to the electric quad revolution. That would leave only the dust for us to suffer which, somehow is less distressing than the noise.
I get the point of loud engines being fun in a teenager kind of way but they are so un-fun to everybody else that we should strive to look for and provide some other fun things to replace it.
I think you missed OP's reference to "urban areas". People who blast though densely populated neighborhoods on quads (usually "sport" models with obnoxious exhausts) generally have no regard for anyone around them. This is a very different scene compared to someone riding in the woods on one.
They're scarcely more tolerable in the woods.
"people having fun" on quads have no place in the city, same with scooters with aftermarket exhausts. Especially when they go as fast as they can at 3am.
I obviously don't talk to enough bikers. This is the first timeI have even heard the idea, I'm 57 and certainly have known a lot of books riders, that people like loud bikes because they think it makes them safer.
My reply to that (as a motorcyclist of 30+ years) is, "If loud pipes save lives, imagine what learning to ride that thing would do?"
[deleted]
We make it illegal to eat or use cell phones while driving because distracted driving is dangerous, yet it's ok to rattle everyone's windows with your Harley.
Even if somehow it is 'safer' for the biker it's definitely not for everyone else.
Even if somehow it is 'safer' for the biker it's definitely not for everyone else.
There’s a pretty common four word slogan called “Loud pipes save lives” - if you look out for it you’ll start to see it everywhere, bumper stickers, tshirts, etc. Its somewhat controversial and not widely accepted by all motorcycle riders.
I never heard safety being ever related to it, only being the motorbike version of tuning culture.
"Loud pipes save lives," they say, while putting their own lives in danger from ordinary motorists who must constantly repress the urge to destroy the insufferable noise machine.
There's no increased safety factor - there's no real location or distance clue such loud exhausts provide and in my experience they only stress and antagonize other drivers :-/
Curious where this idea came from. Some bike riders must also be drivers and it’s very obvious this isn’t true.
Even when emergency vehicles turn on their sirens I can’t tell where they are until I see them when I’m driving.
Curious where this idea came from. Some bike riders must also be drivers and it’s very obvious this isn’t true.
Even when emergency vehicles turn on their sirens I can’t tell where they are until I see them when I’m driving.
In my country it is mandatory for electric vehicles to make artificial sound so they can be heard.
That noise is usually intended for pedestrians.
Over here in France there's such a law too, but from my 2005 car, I cannot hear that noise. I barely hear the loud motorcycles behind me too, FWIW. When I hear them, they're usually up next to me.
When on foot, that's a different story. If there's low to no traffic, having an electric sneak up on you can be destabilizing.
Then again, I also ride motorcycles and remember one day, in a quiet neighborhood, there were three people walking in the middle of the street for some reason and didn't hear my bike, which was loader than the artificial electric car noise. They weren't wearing headphones, and given the time of day were probably not drunk either.
Over here in France there's such a law too, but from my 2005 car, I cannot hear that noise. I barely hear the loud motorcycles behind me too, FWIW. When I hear them, they're usually up next to me.
When on foot, that's a different story. If there's low to no traffic, having an electric sneak up on you can be destabilizing.
Then again, I also ride motorcycles and remember one day, in a quiet neighborhood, there were three people walking in the middle of the street for some reason and didn't hear my bike, which was loader than the artificial electric car noise. They weren't wearing headphones, and given the time of day were probably not drunk either.
> there's a special place in hell for those who put on loud aftermarket exhausts.
Living by a busy crossroads, I could not agree more!
Living by a busy crossroads, I could not agree more!
IIRC there is research that hearing loud vehicle sounds raise your blood pressure and and cause release of stress hormones.
I have a BMW S1000RR with a stock exhaust and I want to get an after market exhaust simply because the stock one sounds awful. I don't want it to be particularly loud, just a more pleasant note. Unfortunately any after market exhaust may be louder. This is why I've held back on buying one.
I don't ride for you, I ride for me, and I love my loud exhausts. Don't like it? I don't care.
I mean, yes, we agree; what you are saying is you're an a*hole and you don't care. You wake babies, startle people, annoy thousands, anger others, cause negative emotions wherever you go, but that's the point and you love yourself some loud exhausts. The image you portray is exactly the image you want to portray and by all accounts accurate. To a certain degree, I suppose I should appreciate the warning, and as I said in a sister thread, I respect people who like yourself are open and upfront about being selfish bastards, over those who pretend (whether to others or even themselves) it's for safety or performance or some other nebulous rationalization :).
Please put your HN handle onto your biking leathers.
So if we come across you out on the road we'll know, "Oh, it's that arsehole".
So if we come across you out on the road we'll know, "Oh, it's that arsehole".
> Exhausts sound great
For kids walking to school, people trying to nap, etc, loud exhaust is terrible on the ears and stressful in general. Electric bikes aren’t silent, but the whining noise is much less stressful than combustion engine noise.
For kids walking to school, people trying to nap, etc, loud exhaust is terrible on the ears and stressful in general. Electric bikes aren’t silent, but the whining noise is much less stressful than combustion engine noise.
To me, loud motor cycles seem like a sign of compensating for small genitals. Like many others in this thread, those loud sounds induce a huge amount of physical and mental stress.
> “my loud exhaust helps me to be seen”
It’s obnoxious and nothing else. Our cities and roads are already polluted enough as it is without the rest of the world having to suffer eardrum splitting motorbike exhausts that shake the whole building.
It’s obnoxious and nothing else. Our cities and roads are already polluted enough as it is without the rest of the world having to suffer eardrum splitting motorbike exhausts that shake the whole building.
Bikes with loud exhaust all have the exhaust pointing out the back. If you want to be heard coming instead of going, you should add a U-bend just behind the muffler so the exhaust sound is projected forward.
I've never been a fan of 'loud pipes save lives'. Its your riding skill that is going to save your life, your ability to anticipate the actions of others.
“Loud pipes save lives” is just like “the best way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun”. It sounds good, but falls apart it the real world.
[deleted]
I have two motorcycles, a BMW R1200GS with an Akrapovic slip-on exhaust which sounds fantastic but isn't particularly loud. It came with the bike new from BMW so I think that is the reason. The second bike I have is a fire breathing KTM 300 two-stroke enduro which not only sounds loud but also probably pollutes like like a truck. If I ride it directly from my house I sometimes just freewheel the first 50-100 m down the hill before I start it. It's a bit embarrassing and I wish it would be a bit quieter. I'm looking into a FMF pipe that is quieter.
As a car motorbiker and cyclist...silent objects coming up on me are scary. Very scary.
Thankfully the last few tesle that came 'close' were so much more loud than I was expecting, I was pleasantly surprised.
Silence may be golden, but also may be not.
> “my loud exhaust helps me to be seen”
Friend of mine turned in front of a motorcyclist who had loud pipes and was going about 50 in a 25 mph zone. He was complaining the whole time the EMT's were loading him into the ambulance that my friend was at fault because he had loud pipes.
I don't ride but have nothing against motorcyclists. But I wish there was some sort of tracking device that would warn me when they are around.
Last point something my parents warned me about when learning to drive. Not everyone has great eyesight or hearing, especially older people. Also older people often have limited neck mobility.
Friend of mine turned in front of a motorcyclist who had loud pipes and was going about 50 in a 25 mph zone. He was complaining the whole time the EMT's were loading him into the ambulance that my friend was at fault because he had loud pipes.
I don't ride but have nothing against motorcyclists. But I wish there was some sort of tracking device that would warn me when they are around.
Last point something my parents warned me about when learning to drive. Not everyone has great eyesight or hearing, especially older people. Also older people often have limited neck mobility.
Had a similar experience the other day on the highway. Traffic was doing ~85mph so I was too and got passed on both sides within inches of my side mirrors by a group of 8 or so people on racing bikes with loud exhausts doing at least 100mph. I didn't hear them/notice them until they were basically in my blind spots, it was very unsettling.
I also suspect that the bulk of exhaust noise is projected to the rear of the vehicle anyway, which makes it not especially useful as a "safety" feature if you are unsafely driving considerably faster than and weaving through traffic.
I also suspect that the bulk of exhaust noise is projected to the rear of the vehicle anyway, which makes it not especially useful as a "safety" feature if you are unsafely driving considerably faster than and weaving through traffic.
Oh you were seen alright. Just not on a positive way. I have constant noisy motorbikes passing in front of my building and often feel like shooting one of their tires because of the stress of having to deal with this constant noise. If exhausts sound great, go to the country side and listen to it, but don't force others to.
> So, i’m fine with a silent electric bike from a safety point of view. The exhaust noise was a false comfort blanket that deserves no faith put in it as a device to be better seen on the road.
How many years have you ridden on the street, I can't count the amount of times I''ve been cut off but a blip on my SC project on a fireblade made people go back into their lane or at least made them aware of me lane splitting in just the last 5 months of riding street again in CA.
Maybe Ireland is different, but I think you have a better argument relying on automated cars saving you then no longer surviving due to a loud pipe.
Then again, Teslas seem to give way despite it's best in class monitoring system.
I'm pretty much over street riding a SS on the street is absurd because of the speeds and ositions you have to be in to ride it adequately to be responsive, so I can't derive much enjoyment of it to justify the risk.
Personally speaking if they decided to build a dedicated Motorcycle lane between at the very edge of the last lane I think that is the real solution, you don't need much more space to do it either.
How many years have you ridden on the street, I can't count the amount of times I''ve been cut off but a blip on my SC project on a fireblade made people go back into their lane or at least made them aware of me lane splitting in just the last 5 months of riding street again in CA.
Maybe Ireland is different, but I think you have a better argument relying on automated cars saving you then no longer surviving due to a loud pipe.
Then again, Teslas seem to give way despite it's best in class monitoring system.
I'm pretty much over street riding a SS on the street is absurd because of the speeds and ositions you have to be in to ride it adequately to be responsive, so I can't derive much enjoyment of it to justify the risk.
Personally speaking if they decided to build a dedicated Motorcycle lane between at the very edge of the last lane I think that is the real solution, you don't need much more space to do it either.
The design gives me some serious Horizon Zero Dawn vibes.
This concept was produced in 2017. There hasn't been any news about it since. BMW in 2017 had a similar self-balancing concept bike with some kind of AR goggle HUD. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXMGi9kQ3TE Also vanished. Honda had one too, also 2017. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLZ6U71y700 Vanished.
How do you pronounce it? The name sounds dangerously similar to MOTOrrhoids - at least in my language.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Lx0ZJGgsFs
Here is a video demonstration,
Here is a video demonstration,
Terrific looking bike.
But
> “MOTOROiD, stand up!”
Why do we have to shove the voice assist in every conceivable gadget adding yet another point of failure :-|
But
> “MOTOROiD, stand up!”
Why do we have to shove the voice assist in every conceivable gadget adding yet another point of failure :-|
Allow me to present to you Optimus Prime with voice controls:
https://youtu.be/JmlQSegO5pM Somewhere in there, the results of "Autobots roll out" is extremely satisfying.
https://youtu.be/JmlQSegO5pM Somewhere in there, the results of "Autobots roll out" is extremely satisfying.
Oh god, what a beautiful machine. I desire it greatly.
I want one!
Shut up and take my money
The last Yamaha I had tried to kill me constantly, it was brilliant.
My modern BMW is the opposite, but this Yamaha looks like a T1000 on a mission to kill me again.
My modern BMW is the opposite, but this Yamaha looks like a T1000 on a mission to kill me again.
Big Yamaha fan here. Learnt riding a motorcycle on one of their old 2 stroke models when I was 11 years old! Have been thinking about buying an MT3 for casual riding. This is so futuristic. I'm sure it needs a lot more testing before public release. Even though I'll not be buying one when it's available, it's just too beautiful to ignore!
This is awesome.
Brrrrm brrrrm engine effect is more fun that ssssp sssssp engines.
The "Active Mass Center Control System" made me wonder: is it possible to make a passive balancing system that would keep a two wheel bike standing up?
That's a good question. There are some Halbach array tricks that you could probably pull where based on displacement the central mass generates a current that then moves the COG back to where it should be to rebalance. The losses probably will cause it to fall over after a while so that would be more of a stay of execution than a complete solution. The lower resistance of the coils the longer it would stay up. And adding a small active component to overcome the losses and it would stay up until the power ran out, but that would violate your 'passive' requirement.
Yes, most bikes have them already - a kick stand.
I noticed, they use a hub motor on a swingarm.
All hub motored bikes I rode have a very, very strong squat because of hub motor's huge torque.
I don't see how they counter it here.
I seen other EV motorcycles to counter it using parallelogram suspension setup: Kymco F9, Gogogro G1, Sunra Miku Max
All hub motored bikes I rode have a very, very strong squat because of hub motor's huge torque.
I don't see how they counter it here.
I seen other EV motorcycles to counter it using parallelogram suspension setup: Kymco F9, Gogogro G1, Sunra Miku Max
That torque can be controlled by limiting the current though, it will still be plenty fast. You just ramp down the current as the squat increases.
ouch! My butt hurts just looking at it.
At least it doesn't have the upgrade that first crossed my mind when I read that the back wings were for a future HMI. I was immediately reminded of the recent articles on HN about the potential for oxygen absorption thru the anus. This led me to think that a more useful upgrade for an HMI might involve an anal probe connected to an on-board oxygen generator to feed oxygen to the rider to help them stay alert. It seems like it would be useful on long cross-country trips. The wings could be retained as part of a deployable crash cocoon to envelope the rider so that they are buffered from the impacts of collision.
I did read in the comments that the range of this bike is probably pretty low so the functionality of the batteries would need to improve before this is practical for long-distance trips. In the absence of improved battery life, my upgrade would not be useful.
It is probably good that I don't design and build things for a living. Some ideas are not worth pursuing.
EDIT: I have thought of another advantage to the anal probe/oxygen generator. In the event of a non-fatal crash where the rider is injured but still has a heartbeat, the anal probe could function to supply continuous oxygen to the body preventing brain and organ damage as long as the oxygen generator functioned and the rider's heart was still beating. Hardening the oxygen generator should be important so that it is shielded from crash damage. This would also negate the need for resuscitation by mouth and in the event the rider's heart stopped, the anal probe could allow rescuers to focus on blood loss/circulation.
With that in mind it should be self-contained and detachable so that it could travel in an ambulance without needing to be removed. That would also make it possible to become a discreet accessory that you would put on (in) before mounting the bike and you could just wear it concealed as you shop, refuel, etc.
Maybe not such a hare-brained idea after all?
I think I read too much.
I did read in the comments that the range of this bike is probably pretty low so the functionality of the batteries would need to improve before this is practical for long-distance trips. In the absence of improved battery life, my upgrade would not be useful.
It is probably good that I don't design and build things for a living. Some ideas are not worth pursuing.
EDIT: I have thought of another advantage to the anal probe/oxygen generator. In the event of a non-fatal crash where the rider is injured but still has a heartbeat, the anal probe could function to supply continuous oxygen to the body preventing brain and organ damage as long as the oxygen generator functioned and the rider's heart was still beating. Hardening the oxygen generator should be important so that it is shielded from crash damage. This would also negate the need for resuscitation by mouth and in the event the rider's heart stopped, the anal probe could allow rescuers to focus on blood loss/circulation.
With that in mind it should be self-contained and detachable so that it could travel in an ambulance without needing to be removed. That would also make it possible to become a discreet accessory that you would put on (in) before mounting the bike and you could just wear it concealed as you shop, refuel, etc.
Maybe not such a hare-brained idea after all?
I think I read too much.
At least one of their recent motorcycles don't look too different. Looking forward to an electric powerplant though
https://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/yamaha/2022-yamaha-y...
https://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/yamaha/2022-yamaha-y...
That would be cool to build a bike that can navigate paved trails autonomously and take it out at night when nobody is around.
somewhat reminded me of the '90s Honda Cub[0] :)
[0] https://barnfinds.com/barn-find-dirt-bike-1991-honda-cub-ez9...
[0] https://barnfinds.com/barn-find-dirt-bike-1991-honda-cub-ez9...
This looks very different. What I like: bold design, articulating rear, battery compartment actually looks good.
What I am curious about is how it actually rides. The photos and demos all look like they are out of a Boston Dynamics demo, less like they are for a bike you actually get on.
What I don’t like: this thing will be ugly as sin once you make it street legal. Also lack of fenders (which is how you avoid getting mud all over your legs and back).
As a cruiser fan, I can appreciate fast nimble sport bikes, but also can’t wait for someone to come up with an electric equivalent to the R18 or the Honda Rune.
What I am curious about is how it actually rides. The photos and demos all look like they are out of a Boston Dynamics demo, less like they are for a bike you actually get on.
What I don’t like: this thing will be ugly as sin once you make it street legal. Also lack of fenders (which is how you avoid getting mud all over your legs and back).
As a cruiser fan, I can appreciate fast nimble sport bikes, but also can’t wait for someone to come up with an electric equivalent to the R18 or the Honda Rune.
Yet another "concept" vehicle, concept meaning "will never be manufactured". This is just marketing bullshit. Why do people take this seriously?
Mother of God, Yamaha take my money, please !
Beautiful thang, straight out of Akira.
This needs a [2017] added to the title.
https://global.yamaha-motor.com/showroom/event/tokyo-motorsh...
https://global.yamaha-motor.com/showroom/event/tokyo-motorsh...
Very eye-catching - reminds me of Akira.
I assume those silver cylinders are battery cells? It would be interesting to see lithium ion cells being exposed like this as a design choice, like muscle cars sometimes expose part of the internal combustion engine as a way to center the power of the vehicle.
Also based on the scope of this project, I assume that must be a known cell form-factor, but I had assumed most applications were using commodity 18650's unless otherwise constrained.
I assume those silver cylinders are battery cells? It would be interesting to see lithium ion cells being exposed like this as a design choice, like muscle cars sometimes expose part of the internal combustion engine as a way to center the power of the vehicle.
Also based on the scope of this project, I assume that must be a known cell form-factor, but I had assumed most applications were using commodity 18650's unless otherwise constrained.
The batteries (I assume) caught my eye too, mainly because they seem exposed in the event of a crash.
If the two thick yellow cables going to the rear axle are any indication, the motor is tiny and in the axle - so, not much to see there. :)
If the two thick yellow cables going to the rear axle are any indication, the motor is tiny and in the axle - so, not much to see there. :)
Lots of pearl clutching in here lol.
No kidding, but does it surprise you that nerds don't like loud sounds?
My friend bought a Zero electric motorcycle. A lot of fun and definitely has zip. Very quiet and makes almost no noise. He can hit a top speed of about 140km/hr but can not stay at that speed a long time due to battery overheat. It has a range of about 90km but their are bigger battery packs available for a price. The charging is slow and takes about 10hrs but again for a price you can pick up a fast charger which cuts down charge time greatly. Yes it is a fun bike but ultimately the range and speed ability plays a factor in usefulness of the bike. When I ride with him I constantly have to make sure I don't take off ahead or lose him. Also with a range of 90km you really can't go far. A trip out to the lake 30km away becomes sketchy if there is no power source out there to charge.
For me a good electric bike would have a range of at least 200km and include any fast charging with the base model.
For me a good electric bike would have a range of at least 200km and include any fast charging with the base model.
Has anyone read Daemon / Freedom by Suarez?
There's a part where a compound filled with armed guards are assaulted by driverless motorbikes wielding swords.
There's a part where a compound filled with armed guards are assaulted by driverless motorbikes wielding swords.
Really interesting concept. I like the general lines of the bike. Looks really well thought out/clean sheet mechanical design.
Two points of contention:
1) After putting over 40k+ miles on various bikes, I never once wished there was a self balancing feature to make it stand up on its own. At a stop light; I put my foot down; at a really long stop light, I put the kickstand down.
If the self balancing feature can function as form of driver aid. Meaning you declarivity tell the bike "I want this line with this apex"; then the bike will follow through with it's active systems. That would be wild.
2) The device right behind the rider gives me goosebumps. In a crash; seems like a great way to break your back and be pinned in the bike.
Background data:MechE background. Owned and crashed high CC several motorcycles. I'm doing totally fine healthwise; just really lucky.
Two points of contention:
1) After putting over 40k+ miles on various bikes, I never once wished there was a self balancing feature to make it stand up on its own. At a stop light; I put my foot down; at a really long stop light, I put the kickstand down.
If the self balancing feature can function as form of driver aid. Meaning you declarivity tell the bike "I want this line with this apex"; then the bike will follow through with it's active systems. That would be wild.
2) The device right behind the rider gives me goosebumps. In a crash; seems like a great way to break your back and be pinned in the bike.
Background data:MechE background. Owned and crashed high CC several motorcycles. I'm doing totally fine healthwise; just really lucky.
>After putting over 40k+ miles on various bikes, I never once wished there was a self balancing feature to make it stand up on its own. At a stop light; I put my foot down; at a really long stop light, I put the kickstand down.
As someone with 138cm height, All I ever wanted on a normal sized motor-bike is self-balancing.
So far my options to ride a normal size bike is to convert it to three-wheeler with after-market attachments(I'm not confident about the safety, Quality of such work), Going for a 3-wheel scooter like Peugeot Metropolis(Not really a bike).
Self-balancing bikes would make the dream come true for many like me.
As someone with 138cm height, All I ever wanted on a normal sized motor-bike is self-balancing.
So far my options to ride a normal size bike is to convert it to three-wheeler with after-market attachments(I'm not confident about the safety, Quality of such work), Going for a 3-wheel scooter like Peugeot Metropolis(Not really a bike).
Self-balancing bikes would make the dream come true for many like me.
You have a very valid point. I'm 5'11" so getting my foot down at stop lights has never been an issue; unless I'm dealing with a 450cc dirt bike.
My GF is about 5'2 and stopping a motorcycle in traffic is actually a pretty big deal. She isn't tall enough to put her foot down, without awkwardly angling the bike. The only bike should could ride of mine is a 250cc ninja. The 400cc+ supermoto was way to awkward/tall for her to comfortably ride.
I'm totally open to the self-balancing idea now.
My GF is about 5'2 and stopping a motorcycle in traffic is actually a pretty big deal. She isn't tall enough to put her foot down, without awkwardly angling the bike. The only bike should could ride of mine is a 250cc ninja. The 400cc+ supermoto was way to awkward/tall for her to comfortably ride.
I'm totally open to the self-balancing idea now.
Thank you for considering my point of view.
A friend of mine is a harley guy and said harley is making a bike that solves this by lowering the bike when stopping.
What do you think of Yamaha Niken? Looks like it would be more similar to a normal motorcycle than a 3-wheel scooter.
https://www.yamahamotorsports.com/sport-touring/models/niken
https://www.yamahamotorsports.com/sport-touring/models/niken
Not really sure about Abhishek, but based on thr name he's an Indian and I'm fairly sure that Niken is
A. NA in india B. Too expensive C. We get conversion kits which can add two side wheels as a rear wheel/chassis attachment which many handicapped people use here in India.
A. NA in india B. Too expensive C. We get conversion kits which can add two side wheels as a rear wheel/chassis attachment which many handicapped people use here in India.
Rumor is that Mahindra is going to introduce Metropolis in the price range of 2.5LacsINR to 3.5 Lacs INR (~5000 USD), Not sure how they are going to manage that(possibly eyeing police force) but at that price it's going to be a deal and unlikely to be matched by other 3-wheelers currently in the Intl. market(In terms of price).
Yeah, it's expensive (and I wasn't aware that there might be availability limitations in India).
Although a self balancing bike would probably not be cheap either, at least until they become much more common.
Although a self balancing bike would probably not be cheap either, at least until they become much more common.
Self-balancing e-bike could be helpful in more than one way to those with disabilities, Considering our travel range is on average limited to those without physical limitations I would be happy to charge my bike at home without awkward petrol(gas) station visits.
I had explored it sometime back it seems like a better option to Metropolis/MP3 for those who prefer bikes, need assistance with balancing and don't mind the premium. But it isn't available where I live(importing vehicles is huge pain & cost-prohibitive).
I personally think one failing of these concept vehicles is that they are clean slate... and too weird.
As an example, early electric cars and fuel cell vehicles were/are uniformly non-uniform. The GM ev1 had fender shrouds, and the that corbin electric vehicle had 3 wheels.
Personally I would like an electric bike that performed and looked like a sportbike.
related: I found it interesting that the look of sportbikes actually derives from racing rules. Originally racing bikes chased aerodynamics with long streamlined fairings usually shrouding at least the front tire. Then racing rules came along that said the fairings couldn't extend past the front axle, and that set up the look.
As an example, early electric cars and fuel cell vehicles were/are uniformly non-uniform. The GM ev1 had fender shrouds, and the that corbin electric vehicle had 3 wheels.
Personally I would like an electric bike that performed and looked like a sportbike.
related: I found it interesting that the look of sportbikes actually derives from racing rules. Originally racing bikes chased aerodynamics with long streamlined fairings usually shrouding at least the front tire. Then racing rules came along that said the fairings couldn't extend past the front axle, and that set up the look.
Right there with you on two. I don’t yet understand the thinking behind that, but I’ll keep reading. It looks really threatening.
As a former daily rider, I'm incredibly excited about this vision.
I do wonder immediately about safety. In crashes, separation from the bike is almost always good for the rider. Being strapped in via the hip harness sounds incredibly dangerous.
I wouldn't ride that faster than a SLOW walking speed in it's current iteration. I don't care how good the AI is. No surprise there are no demos of anyone riding this at speed.
I do wonder immediately about safety. In crashes, separation from the bike is almost always good for the rider. Being strapped in via the hip harness sounds incredibly dangerous.
I wouldn't ride that faster than a SLOW walking speed in it's current iteration. I don't care how good the AI is. No surprise there are no demos of anyone riding this at speed.
I feel like I'd get speared in the kidneys by the weird tail shroud thing in a rear-ender, although it probably wouldn't happen since I don't think I could wedge my bulk into that space to begin with :)
Why would one want to be pinned into the seat that way? Seems very dangerous during an accident, however, I must admit I'm not a rider so, I could be wrong.
I’m waiting for my logicoma
This looks really cool and I can't wait for electric bikes to become more mainstream in North America. Although I can't see the weekend outlaw-cosplay Harley crowd warming up to them.
And they thought about this in 2017! Damn, Yamaha is working on some pretty interesting Electricals. This would be one costly bike to crash tho!
I was secretly hoping this was a new FM synthesizer.
It looks like one of the reject prototypes from Robocop.
And by this I mean it looks super-cool and it'll probably kill you.
And by this I mean it looks super-cool and it'll probably kill you.
Hmm. Self-balancing, image recognition...
That bike looks like straight out of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemon_(novel_series)#Daemon
Or the right tool for some 'Hiro Protagonist' to deliver Pizza through the snow of nuclear winter without crashing.
Anyways, I APPROVE!
Edit: What are the 2 banks of 3 cylinders where the ICE-motorblock would be? Supercapacitors?
That bike looks like straight out of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemon_(novel_series)#Daemon
Or the right tool for some 'Hiro Protagonist' to deliver Pizza through the snow of nuclear winter without crashing.
Anyways, I APPROVE!
Edit: What are the 2 banks of 3 cylinders where the ICE-motorblock would be? Supercapacitors?
If it can balance, it can self-drive!
Westworld bike.
It's neat to have all those powered degrees of freedom, but what problem does it solve?
The BPG transforming bike [1] was a more promising direction. It could transform from a self-balancing Segway form for indoor and sidewalk use to a motorcycle form for roads. It looks like something from Transformers or the RideBack anime, but they got a prototype on the road. Now that had real potential. BPG never got that to to work well enough, and pivoted to another product, an off-road thing that runs on dual caterpillar tracks. Yamaha could probably make the BPG concept work. That would be a boon to delivery drivers everywhere.
The proposed animal-like haptic interface is interesting. But what do you do with it on a two-wheeler? On a horse trained for it, you can do quite a few useful moves - turn on the forehand, turn on the hindquarters, full pass (sideways), half pass (moving partly sideways while facing forward). I've owned several horses, all of whom could do those things. One was an ex-police horse who had all that manuverability and more, and could work in tight spaces when necessary.
Now, that's just listening to the rider. Cutting cows out of a herd (which I don't do) has the horse doing much of the driving. Watch [2]. The rider is in control in the early stages, getting the desired cow partially separated from the herd. But watch the part where the cow is trying to get past the horse. The horse is clearly in charge then.
That cooperative giving control back and forth is common in riding. It takes quite a bit of training and practice for both horse and rider. Miscommunication can result in injuries. It's possible to build all that into a vehicle; the control system for the F-15 fighter-bomber is notable for doing quite a bit by itself, with the pilot indicating what they want to happen and the control system figuring out how to do it, using the aircraft's many control surfaces. That takes a lot of pilot training to use properly.
Maybe if both wheels of the bike were steerable, it could do more. The new electric Hummer has four-wheel steering and can crab at low speeds.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odI4WaYEcCU
[2] https://youtu.be/nCRzUjn4I7I
The BPG transforming bike [1] was a more promising direction. It could transform from a self-balancing Segway form for indoor and sidewalk use to a motorcycle form for roads. It looks like something from Transformers or the RideBack anime, but they got a prototype on the road. Now that had real potential. BPG never got that to to work well enough, and pivoted to another product, an off-road thing that runs on dual caterpillar tracks. Yamaha could probably make the BPG concept work. That would be a boon to delivery drivers everywhere.
The proposed animal-like haptic interface is interesting. But what do you do with it on a two-wheeler? On a horse trained for it, you can do quite a few useful moves - turn on the forehand, turn on the hindquarters, full pass (sideways), half pass (moving partly sideways while facing forward). I've owned several horses, all of whom could do those things. One was an ex-police horse who had all that manuverability and more, and could work in tight spaces when necessary.
Now, that's just listening to the rider. Cutting cows out of a herd (which I don't do) has the horse doing much of the driving. Watch [2]. The rider is in control in the early stages, getting the desired cow partially separated from the herd. But watch the part where the cow is trying to get past the horse. The horse is clearly in charge then.
That cooperative giving control back and forth is common in riding. It takes quite a bit of training and practice for both horse and rider. Miscommunication can result in injuries. It's possible to build all that into a vehicle; the control system for the F-15 fighter-bomber is notable for doing quite a bit by itself, with the pilot indicating what they want to happen and the control system figuring out how to do it, using the aircraft's many control surfaces. That takes a lot of pilot training to use properly.
Maybe if both wheels of the bike were steerable, it could do more. The new electric Hummer has four-wheel steering and can crab at low speeds.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odI4WaYEcCU
[2] https://youtu.be/nCRzUjn4I7I
I think it's wonderful to see "pure R&D" these days. The days of Bell Labs, Xerox PARC, etc. are gone. Even NASA is so much more restrained.
Focus on practicality leads to incremental change. But free research and aspirational (maybe impractical) goals are what brought us the revolutionary technology we rely on today.
This is as kooky as Doug Englebart's team's work was at the time, and similar in the focus on the human/machine interface. Some aspect or later interpretation may stick just like Augment's ripples through the industry.
Startups can't do it. It takes large organizations to maintain the resources for long-term benefit like this. So I commend Yamaha for putting the cash into an impractical effort. I hope they keep it going. My kids may get something revolutionary out of it.
Focus on practicality leads to incremental change. But free research and aspirational (maybe impractical) goals are what brought us the revolutionary technology we rely on today.
This is as kooky as Doug Englebart's team's work was at the time, and similar in the focus on the human/machine interface. Some aspect or later interpretation may stick just like Augment's ripples through the industry.
Startups can't do it. It takes large organizations to maintain the resources for long-term benefit like this. So I commend Yamaha for putting the cash into an impractical effort. I hope they keep it going. My kids may get something revolutionary out of it.
Augment?
The Augmentation Research Center (aka Augment) was Englebart's lab at SRI.
This was a project that wanted to change computers from being number crunching machines to "augmenting human intellect". Things like the mouse, windowing systems, video conferencing, and hypertext came out of that lab and spilled into Xerox PARC, etc. It was also the SRI end of the original Arpanet connection with Berkeley.
Other ideas, like a keyboard that worked via "chords" didn't pan out. It made it so one hand could use the mouse and the other could use the keyboard without switching back and forth. I'm sure many folks with RSI wish for that.
I would check out the "Mother of all Demos". It's out on YouTube: https://youtu.be/yJDv-zdhzMY
And of course you can look up Englebart on Wikipedia or whatever.
And if you are interested in the topic more I recommend "What the Dormouse Said: How the Sixties Counterculture Shaped the Personal Computer Industry" by John Markoff. It plays this history out more before and after.
This was a project that wanted to change computers from being number crunching machines to "augmenting human intellect". Things like the mouse, windowing systems, video conferencing, and hypertext came out of that lab and spilled into Xerox PARC, etc. It was also the SRI end of the original Arpanet connection with Berkeley.
Other ideas, like a keyboard that worked via "chords" didn't pan out. It made it so one hand could use the mouse and the other could use the keyboard without switching back and forth. I'm sure many folks with RSI wish for that.
I would check out the "Mother of all Demos". It's out on YouTube: https://youtu.be/yJDv-zdhzMY
And of course you can look up Englebart on Wikipedia or whatever.
And if you are interested in the topic more I recommend "What the Dormouse Said: How the Sixties Counterculture Shaped the Personal Computer Industry" by John Markoff. It plays this history out more before and after.
I want one.
This is what makes Tesla kick ass, they sell their “concept cars”. They make them available.
This is just fluff.
“When MOTOROiD was revealed at the Tokyo Motor Show, it drew massive attention and was a prime topic of the show, but it also triggered something rather strange, especially since it is a concept model. People were already searching the internet to see how much it would cost; people were not just asking Yamaha directly, but internet forums had topics with users speculating over what the MOTOROiD’s price would be. Show visitors were also saying things like, “I don’t even have a license yet, but I’d definitely want to ride something like this,””
This is just fluff.
“When MOTOROiD was revealed at the Tokyo Motor Show, it drew massive attention and was a prime topic of the show, but it also triggered something rather strange, especially since it is a concept model. People were already searching the internet to see how much it would cost; people were not just asking Yamaha directly, but internet forums had topics with users speculating over what the MOTOROiD’s price would be. Show visitors were also saying things like, “I don’t even have a license yet, but I’d definitely want to ride something like this,””
Other companies, especially one like Yamaha, actually care about quality, and they can't rely on meme levels of overhype and government subsidies in their production. If Tesla's quality reputation says anything, then indeed they do sell their concept cars.
Yamaha makes excellent motorcycles and puts out some rather wild ones, for example the H2 models.
Yamaha makes excellent motorcycles and puts out some rather wild ones, for example the H2 models.
I was really hoping this was going to be Yamaha announcing the first affordable, full-size e-bike, the Tesla 3 of two-wheelers. I guess we're still in the high performance slash high tech phase.
There is a huge resurgence of motorcycling. People aren't calling e-bikes - motorcycles - but that's exactly what they are.
Looking forward to many more EV bikes
Looking forward to many more EV bikes
Don't these head down designs for motorcycles kill peoples necks? Having to keep your head tilted up means the bike is only useful for short drives. Ride it across several USA states and your neck will be frozen, especially with the neck muscles having to fight both gravity (with added weight of helmet) and bumps to keep the head level. Head down lowers air resistance in racing, but seems useless for a vehicle you actually intend to use for transportation. If they really want an advanced design lay the rider completely flat, face down, and invent an optical/camera system that gives them the same visibility that having the head vertical would.
I absolutely love motorcycles. Sadly, most people into seem to be in the game just for the sound alone. I have very, very strong feelings about the vast majority of this "community" and cannot wait for electric to take over.
Sorry for the rant. I have to endure a lot of racers during all hours. It's hardly pleasent