Goodbye Freenode(nedbatchelder.com)
nedbatchelder.com
Goodbye Freenode
https://nedbatchelder.com/blog/202106/goodbye_freenode.html
129 comments
FWIW, I did something foolish that triggered the spambot detection on Libera, and it likewise propagated my ban to DroneBL.
(It all got removed very quickly when someone was contacted about it, and I have no negative opinion about the experience because, in my case, it very much was of my own making, I just mention it so you're aware that sort of blacklisting is not limited to freenode.)
(It all got removed very quickly when someone was contacted about it, and I have no negative opinion about the experience because, in my case, it very much was of my own making, I just mention it so you're aware that sort of blacklisting is not limited to freenode.)
The current Libera Chat[0] is everything that Freenode was before rasengan entered the game: a stable IRC network that goes out of its way to be transparent to the communities and projects that use it and to provide them with stability and network operator support, period.
The current Fleenode is nothing that Freenode was before rasengan entered the game: it destroyed the stability of all the projects that previously used it by flipping the network's functioning upside down, in a very mediocre way ("accidentally" horrible communication from the current staff towards everyone else, "accidentally" taking over channels via bot action, "accidentally" k-lining irccloud about the time [3] was introduced, using the "I'm being cancelled" argument as one line of defense and "mistakes were made but they are fixed, understanding would be appreciated" as another) and with very mediocre results[1].
All of this was done seemingly in order to introduce several Freenode-branded projects[2][3][4][5] that I haven't seen anyone request. These projects, in their current shape, seriously look to me like some shiny toys that use Freenode as a hub and that are now out there, looking for use and popularity.
Congratulations and massive thanks to the Libera Chat team for proving that hard community forks are possible not just in theory, but also in practice - the transition period was short and the staff there really did everything to make it smooth. I've migrated and it seems it was a good decision, I don't look back in the slightest.
[0] https://libera.chat/
[1] https://isfreenodedeadyet.com/
[2] https://chit.freenode.net/ - a bash.org clone
[3] https://bbs.freenode.net/ - a Hacker News clone
[4] https://bnc.freenode.net/ - an irccloud clone
[5] https://jobs.freenode.net/ - a Hacker News clone, just exclusively with job postings
The current Fleenode is nothing that Freenode was before rasengan entered the game: it destroyed the stability of all the projects that previously used it by flipping the network's functioning upside down, in a very mediocre way ("accidentally" horrible communication from the current staff towards everyone else, "accidentally" taking over channels via bot action, "accidentally" k-lining irccloud about the time [3] was introduced, using the "I'm being cancelled" argument as one line of defense and "mistakes were made but they are fixed, understanding would be appreciated" as another) and with very mediocre results[1].
All of this was done seemingly in order to introduce several Freenode-branded projects[2][3][4][5] that I haven't seen anyone request. These projects, in their current shape, seriously look to me like some shiny toys that use Freenode as a hub and that are now out there, looking for use and popularity.
Congratulations and massive thanks to the Libera Chat team for proving that hard community forks are possible not just in theory, but also in practice - the transition period was short and the staff there really did everything to make it smooth. I've migrated and it seems it was a good decision, I don't look back in the slightest.
[0] https://libera.chat/
[1] https://isfreenodedeadyet.com/
[2] https://chit.freenode.net/ - a bash.org clone
[3] https://bbs.freenode.net/ - a Hacker News clone
[4] https://bnc.freenode.net/ - an irccloud clone
[5] https://jobs.freenode.net/ - a Hacker News clone, just exclusively with job postings
> using the "I'm being cancelled" argument
I love it when people find the most ridiculous things to blame on "cancel culture". This goes toe to toe with Bob Baffert blaming it for being banned from horse racing after his Kentucky Derby winning horse being caught with steroids in his system, and after having his horses failing 31 drug tests over his career.
It's like the "dog ate my homework" of 2021
I love it when people find the most ridiculous things to blame on "cancel culture". This goes toe to toe with Bob Baffert blaming it for being banned from horse racing after his Kentucky Derby winning horse being caught with steroids in his system, and after having his horses failing 31 drug tests over his career.
It's like the "dog ate my homework" of 2021
While Mr. Lee (and some of his supporters) is also claiming that the criticism of him is due to anti-asian racism.
The phrase "pick a lane" springs to mind.
The phrase "pick a lane" springs to mind.
[deleted]
According to rasengan, in his current incarnation as root, the irccloud thing wasn't accidental:
< root> what accidental irccloud blanket ban?
< root> I keep hearing about this?
< mst> I think all of irccloud got k-lined briefly - shit happens
< root> It's intentional for sure.
< root> I think someone accidentally removed it.
< mst> is there a public statement about that anywhere?
14:59 <@taw> IRCCloud was not klined by mistake.
14:59 <@taw> We don't allow IRCCloud on freenode.
14:59 <@taw> We offer our own free BNC, if you'd like to use that instead."Use our bouncer or else."
Sounds like a very democratic, open source, do what you will solution to me.
Sounds like a very democratic, open source, do what you will solution to me.
Their thought process: "It's only oppression when it happens to me, otherwise it's just my freedom of choice"
Not quite what they said, however, IRCCloud is all but Open Source.
Oh, perfect. So it's anticompetitive behavior at its finest.
The IRCCloud thing is my own breaking point for staying connected to Freenode for some channels that hadn't moved yet. I'm not going to switch my entire IRC client setup around because they're being childish and can't stand being criticized.
Since I gather that about half the people left in some of those channels were taken out by this k-line, hey, might accelerate the move anyway. :D
Since I gather that about half the people left in some of those channels were taken out by this k-line, hey, might accelerate the move anyway. :D
I am so fucking pissed off. I've had my nick for 17 years -- 17 fucking years on freenode -- all gone because a toddler chose to have a meltdown.
I have finally pulled the plug on #lisp on Freenode as of few minutes ago.
Only logging bots remained connected and minion, and one fellow op.
And and of an era for me - I think it's been over 16 years since I joined #lisp for the first time, and around a decade of being an Op there. It helped me maintain sanity at times. While pretty much everything got moved to libera, it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt to do it in a way :|
Only logging bots remained connected and minion, and one fellow op.
And and of an era for me - I think it's been over 16 years since I joined #lisp for the first time, and around a decade of being an Op there. It helped me maintain sanity at times. While pretty much everything got moved to libera, it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt to do it in a way :|
> https://jobs.freenode.net/ - a Hacker News clone, just exclusively with job postings
Hacker News has "jobs"[0] too ;)
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/jobs
Hacker News has "jobs"[0] too ;)
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/jobs
> a stable IRC network that goes out of its way to be transparent to the communities and projects that use it and to provide them with stability and network operator support, period.
Honestly, communities should just make their own IRC servers, they're trivial in resources to run and manage, there is no need for Libera or Freenode.
Honestly, communities should just make their own IRC servers, they're trivial in resources to run and manage, there is no need for Libera or Freenode.
While I agree that Libera is New Freenode and Old Freenode is rapidly dying a death, this whole episode has soured me mightily against Freenode as a whole. This should never have happened in the first place and the blame for it lies squarely at the OldFreenode/Libera admin's feet, not whichever outside actor took advantage of it. The admins are an "old boys network" - not chosen by the community, or elected, but simply in-group appointment - and while Rasengan is certainly a loose cannon, I have seen enough chatlogs to note that "the admins" are not innocent of power-tripping and favoritism either.
If I were starting an IRC channel for a free software project now, I would put it on OFTC, which has a real governance model with elections and - mysteriously - also manages to be drama-free.
If I were starting an IRC channel for a free software project now, I would put it on OFTC, which has a real governance model with elections and - mysteriously - also manages to be drama-free.
For a little bit of ancient history: I was one of the admins who worked to create OFTC. We all knew each other from Open Projects Network (which rebranded as Freenode).
I was barely in high school when I came up with the name OFTC and I registered OFTC.net. Very early on in the process of creating OFTC, I agreed with all of the people I was creating OFTC with that I would behave as caretaker rather than owner of OFTC.net while we figured out our governance.
Ultimately we came up with a governance model, and we also managed to convince Software in the Public Interest to take custody of the domain name and have it managed in accordance with the governance model we designed.
We started with a pretty great group of both capable and well-intended people, and one of the things we figured out was that if OFTC was going to be a sustainable project, it needed more sustainable governance than the project we were leaving.
One of the key people behind the very early push for OFTC to have a stable governance model later became a Member of Parliament here in Canada.
I was barely in high school when I came up with the name OFTC and I registered OFTC.net. Very early on in the process of creating OFTC, I agreed with all of the people I was creating OFTC with that I would behave as caretaker rather than owner of OFTC.net while we figured out our governance.
Ultimately we came up with a governance model, and we also managed to convince Software in the Public Interest to take custody of the domain name and have it managed in accordance with the governance model we designed.
We started with a pretty great group of both capable and well-intended people, and one of the things we figured out was that if OFTC was going to be a sustainable project, it needed more sustainable governance than the project we were leaving.
One of the key people behind the very early push for OFTC to have a stable governance model later became a Member of Parliament here in Canada.
As the maintainer of one of the more popular IRC server implementations I know a giant chunk of the Libera Chat (formerly freenode) staff pretty well and whilst we may disagree frequently on technical choices they're decent people who were appointed based on technical merit. They pretty much didn't have any say in rasengan seizing control of freenode as Christel sold out the project and lied to the other staff about what what had happened for several years. After Christel was ousted they reorganised and elected teams internally and after the network switch have developed a governance system which requires strong consensus to avoid this ever happening again.[1]
OFTC and Libera Chat aren't as different as you seem to think. There is also a lot of cooperation between the two projects which has been going on for years. Solanum is being developed as a joint project and some staff members are involved with both networks.
1: https://libera.chat/bylaws
OFTC and Libera Chat aren't as different as you seem to think. There is also a lot of cooperation between the two projects which has been going on for years. Solanum is being developed as a joint project and some staff members are involved with both networks.
1: https://libera.chat/bylaws
Hey Saber,
Thanks for everything you do on inspircd and IRCv3, I've been using the former for my network for nearly 15 years now.
Thanks for everything you do on inspircd and IRCv3, I've been using the former for my network for nearly 15 years now.
I'm glad you find my work useful. :)
Apparently rasengan likes it too
<@root> inpspiricd is a good project
<@root> but we'll make it way better
<@root> sadie is pretty good for a noob
<@root> but obviously its time to take things seriousYeah I heard that. It's GPLv2 licensed so he's free to use it (if he can even migrate his services database without corrupting it) but his lackies have been informed that they will be banned on sight if they try to ask for support.
Apparently their solution was to not bother migrating the services database at all.
I ... just ... lolsob.
I ... just ... lolsob.
They basically just nuked the whole thing. I had my nick for over 17 years and was kind of clinging to it...just pathetic.
But how else will that troglodyte and his minions call you a "noob"
Seriously it's 2021 who unironically still uses that term?
Seriously it's 2021 who unironically still uses that term?
[deleted]
Agree. It would have been great if the old staff and servers would have merged with OFTC, but it seems this wasn't even considered at any point. Nothing seems to have changed in that relation. But oh well, just another network to connect to until everything has maybe moved off freenode.
Speaking as somebody who dearly loves both libera and oftc, I'm glad there are still -two- major networks for open source stuff.
The past couple months has shown that having too many eggs in a single basket can have unfun consequences, and my ideal future would be things being about 50/50 between libera and oftc so only half my IRC world is likely to be on fire at once.
The past couple months has shown that having too many eggs in a single basket can have unfun consequences, and my ideal future would be things being about 50/50 between libera and oftc so only half my IRC world is likely to be on fire at once.
It would probably be risky to drag the only other foss-focussed network into the legal battle.
Andrew Lee has shown that he is litigious, so why expose another organisation to that risk?
Andrew Lee has shown that he is litigious, so why expose another organisation to that risk?
Fair enough.
A clear instance of NIH-Syndrome. Besides, admins want something to admin... Moving to a new home and loosing your status as the guy who is allowed to set the rules isn't very atractive to most... And I even understand that. There must be some motivation to do volunteer work, even if the actual motivation is irritating when actually voiced.
Merging two networks is problematic. The same nicks and channels are owned by different people on either side; in this case the server software is distinct as well with different features supported.
OFTC as far as I know is much stricter about on-topicness and such than freenode was, and Libera is a fair bit less strict than freenode was, so merging the old freenode with oftc would've required drastically changing oftc, which I'm sure no one would want.
>If I were starting an IRC channel for a free software project now, I would put it on OFTC, which has a real governance model with elections and - mysteriously - also manages to be drama-free.
I'm not sure if it's completely drama-free. During the community meeting on the future of FSF's presence on IRC[1], someone shared these logs:
https://irclogs.thegrebs.com/oftc/2021/05/01
https://irclogs.thegrebs.com/oftc/2021/05/03
https://irclogs.thegrebs.com/oftc/2021/03/30
I don't know anything about the context of these exchanges, but nevertheless they make me worry about their moderation policies.
[1] - https://www.fsf.org/events/community-meeting-on-the-future-o...
I'm not sure if it's completely drama-free. During the community meeting on the future of FSF's presence on IRC[1], someone shared these logs:
https://irclogs.thegrebs.com/oftc/2021/05/01
https://irclogs.thegrebs.com/oftc/2021/05/03
https://irclogs.thegrebs.com/oftc/2021/03/30
I don't know anything about the context of these exchanges, but nevertheless they make me worry about their moderation policies.
[1] - https://www.fsf.org/events/community-meeting-on-the-future-o...
bagira/phanes is an extremely well-known troll, banned from multiple networks, who is likely clinically paranoid. Their moderation policies are fine.
Hi, I'm bagira/phanes. The only networks I've ever been banned from are OFTC and Freenode, most of which is recent.
I admire your courage, anonymous liar on the internet.
I admire your courage, anonymous liar on the internet.
He's also staff on Leenode now.
It is ironic, but not at all surprising to me, that "free speech" in the context of current Freenode means being not enforcing codes of conduct (so being transphobia-friendly among other things), but an iron moderation grip on any criticism of the network itself.
They're not just transphobia-friendly; one of their new ops got opped right after uttering a transphobic slur in a very transphobic sentence. Their own staff are openly transphobes.
If any trans people read this, I’m sorry some people are like that but I love the hell out of you.
Trans rights are human rights. Always will be
No problem, I'm trans and I'm not forcing anyone to like it. Just don't punch me in the face or something. I'm back on freenode because I like that that freedom of speech even when I disagree, this must be my Voltaire-ish side.
Not a sentence I expected to see on HN today. Thank you.
You’re correct; if they actually supported free speech values, criticism of the network should clearly have been allowed, too.
They're banning people just for naming other networks, even without open criticism. I would expect that behavior from unexperienced children who didn't have time to develop social values, not from grown ups.
As well as purging #python and network banning some of the regulars there for pushing back, #fsf and #gnu were taken over this morning by the new freenode staff, despite a 2 week transition plan being published.
https://status.fsf.org/notice/4214348
https://status.fsf.org/notice/4214348
FSF/GNU transition post mentioned above: https://www.fsf.org/news/fsf-and-gnu-move-official-irc-chann...
I somewhat suspect that it is not despite the transition plan, but rather because of it, given Lee's demonstrated vindictiveness to any community or project that dares to state their intentions to leave "his" network.
At this point, it has been exceedingly clear that almost every project has jumped ship[0][1]. For weeks the leave list has grown to over 700 while the stay list is at 3.
[0] https://github.com/siraben/freenode-exodus
[1] https://isfreenodedeadyet.com/
[0] https://github.com/siraben/freenode-exodus
[1] https://isfreenodedeadyet.com/
> or weeks the leave list has grown to over 700 while the stay list is at 3.
It's more like 1.5 [0]. #techrights stayed and #forth has a bridged setup. The third channel listed is #freenode.
[0] https://github.com/siraben/freenode-exodus#projects-and-chan...
It's more like 1.5 [0]. #techrights stayed and #forth has a bridged setup. The third channel listed is #freenode.
[0] https://github.com/siraben/freenode-exodus#projects-and-chan...
Yes :), part of the joke is that even when you try to look for channels staying (and I've asked dozens of people at this point), they're obviously staying (tied to freenode), compromising (bridging) or very extreme (#techrights is not the most pleasant of places, let's put it like that).
#techrights have migrated to their own server and are bridging to Freenode.
According to one of the new ops for the now unofficial Freenode #fsf channel, #reactos may have stayed. If true, the count would be four.
> @freenode_CrystalMath:matrix.org
> and i'm a reactos developer, though we're not on libera at all
> @freenode_CrystalMath:matrix.org
> we're only on freenode and mattermost
> @freenode_CrystalMath:matrix.org
> and i'm a reactos developer, though we're not on libera at all
> @freenode_CrystalMath:matrix.org
> we're only on freenode and mattermost
I think it's important to continuously warn people about the freenode takeover, lest communities end up split.
(see also: https://netsplit.de/networks/top10.php current statistics)
(see also: https://netsplit.de/networks/top10.php current statistics)
That’s why I implemented this warning in my client: https://twitter.com/quasseldroid/status/1397824682259329024
I have been watching that graph since this whole thing flared up and, if nothing else, find it hilarious when paired with the "freenode exists for FOSS" blog post[0] with this leading statement:
> The current global user count of freenode exceeds the user count of the 2nd-6th largest networks, combined. I am pleased to announce, the plan to destroy freenode has failed!
[0] https://freenode.net/news/for-foss
> The current global user count of freenode exceeds the user count of the 2nd-6th largest networks, combined. I am pleased to announce, the plan to destroy freenode has failed!
[0] https://freenode.net/news/for-foss
Seems like the transition is going quite smoothly so the warnings are going through despite the bans and channel closures. Good job to the libera staff and community! And definitively I'm saving that link.
I'm pretty sure the bans & channel closures have hastened the transition. People log in and see pretty much no one on the channel, search to see if something happened, and turn up the news about Lee fucking Freenode up. Then they leave, too.
/., Digg, reddit — centralized convenience is still too convenient.
Build out open standards well, instead of trying to get people to avoid services on principles alone (it doesn't go great usually).
Build out open standards well, instead of trying to get people to avoid services on principles alone (it doesn't go great usually).
thankfully, IRC is an open protocol, so for most people making such a change could be as simple as mechanically replacing "chat.freenode.net" with "irc.libera.chat" in their config.
Many IRC networks have had drama.
But does anyone know the motivation for recent actions by Freenode?
I'm discounting conspiracy theories (e.g., flipping, sabotage) because I think anyone acting strategically wrt IRC knows that forking an IRC network has been part of the standard toolkit for responding to "damage", since almost the start.
I'm starting to lean towards a theory of there being no longer being a business reason nor ideological reason to Freenode's recent actions. At least not after the first few days.
But does anyone know the motivation for recent actions by Freenode?
I'm discounting conspiracy theories (e.g., flipping, sabotage) because I think anyone acting strategically wrt IRC knows that forking an IRC network has been part of the standard toolkit for responding to "damage", since almost the start.
I'm starting to lean towards a theory of there being no longer being a business reason nor ideological reason to Freenode's recent actions. At least not after the first few days.
My personal theory is that rasengan had a boyhood dream of running his own IRC network. A dream he tried to realize by buying Freenode. The actual purchase happened under very dubious circumstances which (plus some other disagreements in the Freenode team) led to the creation of Libera. This just rasengan lashing out when they broke his toy.
There is some speculation about the motivations here: https://ariadne.space/2021/05/20/the-whole-freenode-kerfluff...
I don't know these particular people, but, absolutely, many people grew up with IRC and similar earlier online social forums as a refuge from trauma, or to find community or acceptance.
(That started in the age of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet,_nobody_knows_... , before more conventional social dynamics took over the 'Net.)
If that theory is correct, I'd guess there's a good path to something that everyone feels better about. But it might involve Freenode being turned over to a nonprofit. I think many traditional users wouldn't go back, but the right nonprofit might find a way to pivot to new service to the world. In the credible nonprofit scenario, the value of the Freenode brand now might be of the flavor: we made mistakes, learned dearly, came out much stronger.
(That started in the age of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet,_nobody_knows_... , before more conventional social dynamics took over the 'Net.)
If that theory is correct, I'd guess there's a good path to something that everyone feels better about. But it might involve Freenode being turned over to a nonprofit. I think many traditional users wouldn't go back, but the right nonprofit might find a way to pivot to new service to the world. In the credible nonprofit scenario, the value of the Freenode brand now might be of the flavor: we made mistakes, learned dearly, came out much stronger.
I doubt any nonprofit credible enough is going to risk damaging their reputation by taking on Freenode after what Lee's done with it. Nearly everyone's already moved to Libera & OFTC, people aren't going to want to move back after all that work, and well, frankly, Freenode's very name is toxic now.
Also, I doubt Lee would ever give up control, because it's clear controlling the network is what he wanted all along.
Also, I doubt Lee would ever give up control, because it's clear controlling the network is what he wanted all along.
Andrew Lee also claims to be the Crown Prince of Korea - because he claims to be distantly related to a very old king, contacted one of the aging claimants to the throne who has no male children, and organized a "ceremony" with him in a Vietnamese restaurant in Beverly Hills.
I think if you want to form a theory of mind re his Freenode actions, you'd be well informed by forming a theory of mind re his Korea actions. Obviously part of it is the monarchist philosophy, the idea that an autocratic government over Korea with no input from the people is somehow worth something. Even in the case of the North, you couldn't call the restoration of the monarchy an improvement. And even in monarchism in general, there's still a vague idea of government by at least a little bit of consent from at least a few of the governed, from the Glorious Revolution to the concept of the Mandate of Heaven. The so-called crown prince has none of that.
But more interestingly, Lee thinks something happened at that dinner to make him crown prince. The claim to the throne by the scion in question is already disputed, and it's far from clear that he had the power, according to the old royal rules, to make some random person who happens to have the same last name his heir. And if he does, it would be via adoption, not via a "Passing of the Sword Ceremony" and a seafood entree. There's no evidence that Lee has once participated in the yearly cultural ceremonies in Korea that honor the late royalty and still to this day involve members of the former royal house - the other claimant to the throne does that. If you're not going to stick by the very practical rule that the legitimate ruler is the person physically on the throne, you at least need to stick by the rules of the royal house about legitimacy, and he's done neither.
I believe he approaches Freenode in the same way. He genuinely believes that it is possible and reasonable to transfer control of Freenode without the involvement or consent of Freenode's users and that the good users will stay loyal to the name "Freenode," instead of to the intangible community. So he didn't even anticipate the possibility that the staff would set up their own network and manage to move almost all of the community over. He also believes that all that needs to happen is to contact one person who has a bit of a claim to Freenode and arrange for DNS to be transferred, and everything will work itself out.
What we're seeing is him operating as if everything will soon work itself out, once he deals with a few small problems. Once people forget about Libera, once the uncooperative channel ops "spamming" suggestions to try Libera are removed, once #python is turned from a channel run by the PSF to a channel with Python enthusiasts, etc., Freenode will eventually emerge as the home of FOSS, like it's always been, and he'll be on the throne.
I think if you want to form a theory of mind re his Freenode actions, you'd be well informed by forming a theory of mind re his Korea actions. Obviously part of it is the monarchist philosophy, the idea that an autocratic government over Korea with no input from the people is somehow worth something. Even in the case of the North, you couldn't call the restoration of the monarchy an improvement. And even in monarchism in general, there's still a vague idea of government by at least a little bit of consent from at least a few of the governed, from the Glorious Revolution to the concept of the Mandate of Heaven. The so-called crown prince has none of that.
But more interestingly, Lee thinks something happened at that dinner to make him crown prince. The claim to the throne by the scion in question is already disputed, and it's far from clear that he had the power, according to the old royal rules, to make some random person who happens to have the same last name his heir. And if he does, it would be via adoption, not via a "Passing of the Sword Ceremony" and a seafood entree. There's no evidence that Lee has once participated in the yearly cultural ceremonies in Korea that honor the late royalty and still to this day involve members of the former royal house - the other claimant to the throne does that. If you're not going to stick by the very practical rule that the legitimate ruler is the person physically on the throne, you at least need to stick by the rules of the royal house about legitimacy, and he's done neither.
I believe he approaches Freenode in the same way. He genuinely believes that it is possible and reasonable to transfer control of Freenode without the involvement or consent of Freenode's users and that the good users will stay loyal to the name "Freenode," instead of to the intangible community. So he didn't even anticipate the possibility that the staff would set up their own network and manage to move almost all of the community over. He also believes that all that needs to happen is to contact one person who has a bit of a claim to Freenode and arrange for DNS to be transferred, and everything will work itself out.
What we're seeing is him operating as if everything will soon work itself out, once he deals with a few small problems. Once people forget about Libera, once the uncooperative channel ops "spamming" suggestions to try Libera are removed, once #python is turned from a channel run by the PSF to a channel with Python enthusiasts, etc., Freenode will eventually emerge as the home of FOSS, like it's always been, and he'll be on the throne.
So, I got curious and looked it up: Andrew Lee "inherited" his claim from Prince(?) Yi Seok, who is the tenth son of Yi Kang (King Uichin), who was the fifth son of Emperor Gojong. ("Yi" and "Lee" are just two different ways to Latinize the same family name.)
It already casts doubt on what legitimate claim Yi Seok could have on the Imperial Throne - the matter was not resolved only because monarchy is dead in Korea and nobody gives a damn any more, and people kinda feel sad that these imperial descendants went through so much tragedy and struggles in the last century, so we just politely nod, in the same way we would talk to our grandma suffering from dementia.
But some guy who grew up in America crashing a family reunion and claiming he's the inheritor of the family house because he met grandma once and got her to sign some document? Lol, nice try.
It already casts doubt on what legitimate claim Yi Seok could have on the Imperial Throne - the matter was not resolved only because monarchy is dead in Korea and nobody gives a damn any more, and people kinda feel sad that these imperial descendants went through so much tragedy and struggles in the last century, so we just politely nod, in the same way we would talk to our grandma suffering from dementia.
But some guy who grew up in America crashing a family reunion and claiming he's the inheritor of the family house because he met grandma once and got her to sign some document? Lol, nice try.
> There's no evidence that Lee has once participated in the yearly cultural ceremonies in Korea that honor the late royalty and still to this day involve members of the former royal house - the other claimant to the throne does that.
Technically, if I understand who you are referring to, that other person is a claimant to the position of head of the royal house; Unlike the line of claimants Lee is in, that line does not assert that the monarchy either still exists or should be restored. There waa another restoration claimant, but IIRC she passed without a designated heir, and no pretender has arisen with a claim through hers.
Technically, if I understand who you are referring to, that other person is a claimant to the position of head of the royal house; Unlike the line of claimants Lee is in, that line does not assert that the monarchy either still exists or should be restored. There waa another restoration claimant, but IIRC she passed without a designated heir, and no pretender has arisen with a claim through hers.
That's a compelling theory (and I loved the "and a seafood entree" line), though I'd hope it's not the current situation.
In any case, I'm assuming Freenode is over, and that the only way it might be reborn is by abdicating the throne, and turning it over to something like a representative democracy (with a sufficiently reassuring foundation than the new spinoff).
(Incidentally, there was rare occasional young royalty or child actor on early IRC. I suppose because they had the money and time for Internet access, and the social isolation/barriers that made IRC relatively welcoming, so they could be just people. I never heard of any expecting special status on the Internet, in that time before Social Media Influencers.)
In any case, I'm assuming Freenode is over, and that the only way it might be reborn is by abdicating the throne, and turning it over to something like a representative democracy (with a sufficiently reassuring foundation than the new spinoff).
(Incidentally, there was rare occasional young royalty or child actor on early IRC. I suppose because they had the money and time for Internet access, and the social isolation/barriers that made IRC relatively welcoming, so they could be just people. I never heard of any expecting special status on the Internet, in that time before Social Media Influencers.)
It's not over. It's alive and well, it just happens to be named "Libera" these days. The only thing 'rasengan actually bought was the rights to the name (including the domain registration) and, indirectly, a user base of forgotten bouncers that will be reconfigured next time they're used.
Note how the growth in the Libera graph parallels the drop in the Freenode graph: https://netsplit.de/networks/top10.php
Note how the growth in the Libera graph parallels the drop in the Freenode graph: https://netsplit.de/networks/top10.php
I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as IRC, is in fact, IRC/Freenode, or as I've recently taken to calling it, Leenode. IRC is not a complete social network unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning royal fiefdom system made useful by the chit server, the integrated bouncer and vital bulletin board servers comprising a full network kingdom as defined by Tower of Chats.
Many IRC users connect to a modified version of Leenode every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of Leenode which is widely used today is often called "IRC", and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the Leenode network, develope^Wpurchased by Andrew "rasengan" Lee.
There really is an IRC, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. IRC is the protocol: the part of the system providing network connectivity between the users accessing it. The protocol is an essential part of a network, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete networking system. IRC is normally used in combination with Leenode: the whole system is basically Leenode connected via IRC, or IRC/Leenode. All the so-called "IRC" servers are really servers of IRC/Leenode.
Many IRC users connect to a modified version of Leenode every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of Leenode which is widely used today is often called "IRC", and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the Leenode network, develope^Wpurchased by Andrew "rasengan" Lee.
There really is an IRC, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. IRC is the protocol: the part of the system providing network connectivity between the users accessing it. The protocol is an essential part of a network, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete networking system. IRC is normally used in combination with Leenode: the whole system is basically Leenode connected via IRC, or IRC/Leenode. All the so-called "IRC" servers are really servers of IRC/Leenode.
Monarchy is a useful construct. Obviously you wouldn't want it as a system of government but it turns out humans really want some sort of living symbol, and a monarch gets you a random living symbol instead of the alternative of electing one (which both makes them subject to political influence and even worse gives them apparent democratic legitimacy because people voted for them).
When I say random, what I mean here is that - while they're biological descendants of a previous monarch locking in some component of genetics - humans are enormously varied so what you actually get isn't so different from if you stole a random newborn baby. Fat, tall, slow-witted, ugly, it's out of everybody's hands. They didn't ask for the job (you might want to at least make it possible for them to decline - if they feel they cannot do it, but this decision must be strongly discouraged and irreversible) but it's not onerous and somebody needs to do it.
I think it's actually desirable for a country to find themselves a monarch, giving said monarch of course absolutely no actual power whatsoever, and some merely ceremonial duties. The people get a symbol, untainted by the day's grimy politics and the politicians can get on with something useful.
Now, would Andrew Lee make for a halfway decent King of Korea? It seems dubious, but unlike running Freenode it wouldn't come with any actual power. However the big problem, as with Freenode, is whether people accept him. If the Korean people recognise Lee as King, why not?
When I say random, what I mean here is that - while they're biological descendants of a previous monarch locking in some component of genetics - humans are enormously varied so what you actually get isn't so different from if you stole a random newborn baby. Fat, tall, slow-witted, ugly, it's out of everybody's hands. They didn't ask for the job (you might want to at least make it possible for them to decline - if they feel they cannot do it, but this decision must be strongly discouraged and irreversible) but it's not onerous and somebody needs to do it.
I think it's actually desirable for a country to find themselves a monarch, giving said monarch of course absolutely no actual power whatsoever, and some merely ceremonial duties. The people get a symbol, untainted by the day's grimy politics and the politicians can get on with something useful.
Now, would Andrew Lee make for a halfway decent King of Korea? It seems dubious, but unlike running Freenode it wouldn't come with any actual power. However the big problem, as with Freenode, is whether people accept him. If the Korean people recognise Lee as King, why not?
> If the Korean people recognise Lee as King, why not?
What makes you think they do?
The Joseon dynasty, which Lee claims to be the heir to, never ruled over modern South Korea. It fell out of power when Korea became a vassal state to Japan in 1910, and was no longer extant when South Korea regained independence in 1945. The last member of that dynasty died without issue; to claim that a distant relative of his is now the "king of Korea" is a distinctly minority viewpoint.
What makes you think they do?
The Joseon dynasty, which Lee claims to be the heir to, never ruled over modern South Korea. It fell out of power when Korea became a vassal state to Japan in 1910, and was no longer extant when South Korea regained independence in 1945. The last member of that dynasty died without issue; to claim that a distant relative of his is now the "king of Korea" is a distinctly minority viewpoint.
Ah, was that part unclear? Sorry. I don't think they would at all. This is the biggest obstacle to creating new monarchs. Maybe I should have made it more obvious that this was entirely a "What-if?" conjecture.
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I mean, I guess if new Freenode's mission to "preserve IRC" includes preserving drama, flamewars, channel takeovers, and mass bans, then mission accomplished!
All my chat networks I care about have migrated to Libera or Matrix. And I agree freenode is circling the drain.
I was also banned and Klined, but I am not sure this was a free node action...
I was immediately able to reconnect to a different freenode server. And have not been bothered since. It definitely feels like a rouge operator just banned everyone on their node.
However despite this happening several days ago, there is no statement from freenode, so IDK.
I was also banned and Klined, but I am not sure this was a free node action...
I was immediately able to reconnect to a different freenode server. And have not been bothered since. It definitely feels like a rouge operator just banned everyone on their node.
However despite this happening several days ago, there is no statement from freenode, so IDK.
Seems like 2 Arch Linux maintainers have now been klined after they (again) took over ##archlinux to redirect people back to #archlinux.
I don't understand what the big deal with all this Freenode drama is. It just got renamed to Libera, update your host files and you're done.
The drama is that whenever someone attempts to tell people that on Freenode, their channels get taken over and/or they get banned.
My comment was a rather tongue-in-cheek take of how Libera is carrying on the spirit of Freenode, and we should just consider Freenode a random other network that somehow got Freenode's name by accident.
At this point, if you haven't heard of it through other means then you're Out Of The Loop (yeah I suppose if you were on a coma for the past months and only read IRC and no discussions anywhere else...)
But I agree, it's a bit of needless drama, especially when continuing on Freenode has shown to be untenable.
But I agree, it's a bit of needless drama, especially when continuing on Freenode has shown to be untenable.
I do wonder why the Libera staff didn't kick off the network with a copy of the Freenode user/channel database. Perhaps the Freenode legal entity has a claim to it?
A commitment to privacy and principles.
Fundamentally there was no viable way to get permission from the freenode user base for that in a way that was morally acceptable.
(I'm sure there were legal reasons too but I don't believe the question ever got as far as that being relevant)
Fundamentally there was no viable way to get permission from the freenode user base for that in a way that was morally acceptable.
(I'm sure there were legal reasons too but I don't believe the question ever got as far as that being relevant)
What good would that do, if the users aren't connecting to the network?
> What good would that do,
It would save both staff and users a lot of time from having to re-register accounts, channels, and projects/communities.
> if the users aren't connecting to the network?
I don't understand this part, sorry.
It would save both staff and users a lot of time from having to re-register accounts, channels, and projects/communities.
> if the users aren't connecting to the network?
I don't understand this part, sorry.
If your users are on Freenode and don't know about your network, having the structure there doesn't do much good. It doesn't take much time to register nicknames/channels anyway, certainly not enough to risk a lawsuit from Freenode.
I stuck around IRC because of people like Ned providing sound advice and keeping a kind community. It's a shame that drama brews and things like this happen. Hopefully the change keeps the community happier and healthier!
This drama all reminds me of what happened at DALnet in the early 2000s. A few overzealous IRCops started a purge of all the warez/mp3 scene channels. Everyone suspected RIAA put the pressure on them. I was a channel op with a handful of friends at the time of a popular channel (100-200 members on average). One day I logged on and the channel was invite only. They took the channel via their ChanServ service. Everyone I know either moved to EFnet or Undernet.
That's not quite how it happened, DALnet suffered prolonged DDoS assaults that took the network offline for several weeks. (I remember it being a couple of months.) Once they got past the DDoS was when they banned all file trading. It wasn't just warez and mp3 channels, it also targeted manga scanlation and anime fansub groups.
The reasoning I heard was that the DDoS was triggered by someone getting upset about something that happened in a file-trading channel, and decided to DDoS the entire network as a result. After being offline for so long from the attack, DALnet admins wanted nothing to do with that kind of bullshit again and just purged it all. I really can't say that I blame them.
The reasoning I heard was that the DDoS was triggered by someone getting upset about something that happened in a file-trading channel, and decided to DDoS the entire network as a result. After being offline for so long from the attack, DALnet admins wanted nothing to do with that kind of bullshit again and just purged it all. I really can't say that I blame them.
if you k-line nedbat, of all people, you’re obviously deranged.
fuckin’ bye.
fuckin’ bye.
Who is nedbat?
Ned Batchelder, the author of the post.
Among much else, he’s consistently a voice of patient sanity.
Among much else, he’s consistently a voice of patient sanity.
The author of the blog post uses the nick 'nedbat' on IRC and on the internet and he is a really smart and nice fellow who shares and helps people with all sort of Python and other questions.
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worth pointing out that a huge amount of the longstanding freenode policy & other bits of content (history) were unceremoniously taken off the website 3 days ago.
"Leenode" really is trying hard to burn itself to the ground.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27475592
"Leenode" really is trying hard to burn itself to the ground.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27475592
IRCCloud users have been banned from connecting to Freenode: https://twitter.com/IRCCloud/status/1404153550159159298
So at this point what does Freenode actually have? It seems like no one is left…
The very temporary distinction of having the most active users connected to the network.
Are there usage statistics that support or invalidate the theory that a majority of active users have migrated from Freenode to Libera?
https://isfreenodedeadyet.com/ and https://netsplit.de/networks/top10.php are useful.
The former has PRIVMSG (message) statistics which show that Libera Chat is considerably more active than freenode despite having less total users (for now, the crossover point is predicted to be the 26th and it's been moving closer and closer for days).
The former has PRIVMSG (message) statistics which show that Libera Chat is considerably more active than freenode despite having less total users (for now, the crossover point is predicted to be the 26th and it's been moving closer and closer for days).
Malicious individuals invariably rely on and take advantage of good faith interpretations of their behavior. This is the only way they are able to continue their abuse for so long. Judge people by their actions.
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This is why I abandoned IRC long ago in favor of Matrix.
Until the IRC scene settles down a bit, I’m out. IRC is painful enough as it is.
Until the IRC scene settles down a bit, I’m out. IRC is painful enough as it is.
I find the quote “never attribute to malice what could be explained by incompetence” to be woefully overused.
People are often petty, mean spirited, and act irrationally. To throw your hands up and say “hey it was a mistake!” Without further reflection on the intention and purpose of an action is setting yourself up for failure.
This does not mean do not be charitable. This means don’t be lazy and rely on a poorly formed quote as an axiom to live your life by. Dig deeper.
People are often petty, mean spirited, and act irrationally. To throw your hands up and say “hey it was a mistake!” Without further reflection on the intention and purpose of an action is setting yourself up for failure.
This does not mean do not be charitable. This means don’t be lazy and rely on a poorly formed quote as an axiom to live your life by. Dig deeper.
I don't think this is the be way it works. Maybe at the first time I will not attribute to malice if it can be explained by incompetence.
But that individual will either way land on my "observe a little more carefully"-list which might give me more data to decide if they act maliciously or just incompetently.
What isn't successful at all is when you constantly suspect all others are doing everything for the most evil reason possible. Because this is really not the case in pracise and also has a cost that you need to carry.
Edit: although in this example one could argue explaining it by incompetence alone will need some major mental gymnastics.
But that individual will either way land on my "observe a little more carefully"-list which might give me more data to decide if they act maliciously or just incompetently.
What isn't successful at all is when you constantly suspect all others are doing everything for the most evil reason possible. Because this is really not the case in pracise and also has a cost that you need to carry.
Edit: although in this example one could argue explaining it by incompetence alone will need some major mental gymnastics.
After a week or two of uptime, I restarted my PC. As it happened, I reconnected while Freenode was in the middle of a spam wave. Something mistook my client for a spam bot and banned my IP.
Oh well, "and nothing of value was lost" I thought and deleted Freenode from my server list. But, later that day, I discovered that I could not connect to other IRC networks: the Freenode ban was propagated to DroneBL, and then picked up by other IRC networks. I was effectively blacklisted from all of IRC. This also affected some services I was providing to a few communities.
I did get the ban removed, but after this incident, I would not recommend anyone to connect to Freenode at all. The new administration doesn't seem to have sufficient experience to fill their present position suitably.