Home Depot is introducing power tools that won’t work if they’re stolen(businessinsider.com)
businessinsider.com
Home Depot is introducing power tools that won’t work if they’re stolen
https://www.businessinsider.com/home-depot-fights-shoplifters-special-power-tools-2021-7
554 comments
Reminds me of buying beets at the grocery store that were $.99 "each", but were conveniently bundled in a group of 3.
I got home and was thinking "that was a lot of beets for $.99." but I still have no idea if I did the self checkout right or wrong when I entered "1" as the quantity.
I got home and was thinking "that was a lot of beets for $.99." but I still have no idea if I did the self checkout right or wrong when I entered "1" as the quantity.
My dad ate lots of guava fruit in his childhood in his native country. He buys a few whenever the local grocers have them in stock. About half the time, the cashier keys them in as limes (about 1/3rd the price) and he doesn't realize until he's home and reads the receipt.
I can't imagine confusing them with limes given their size. I had a guava tree for a while and it's ... hard to eat that much guava.
There are several varieties of guava. The really good ones are small and lime sized and the really bad ones are bigger and crap.
Really good ones have nice, soft red flesh and don’t have seeds that will break a tooth.
Really good ones have nice, soft red flesh and don’t have seeds that will break a tooth.
I was lucky enough to have some guavas around for a while but not very recently - if I’m remembering correctly I think the seed hardness is also largely a function of how ripe they are?
[deleted]
I had a similar experience. I had to ask the self-checkout store clerk whether each banana was $0.25 or if it was all the bananas. They told me it was $0.25 per banana.
Oh, wow.
I’ve remarked to my wife how if I ever go crazy, can’t hold down a job, and live in the streets that I would sustain myself with bananas because you can buy a whole bundle of them for pennies.
Woops…
I’ve remarked to my wife how if I ever go crazy, can’t hold down a job, and live in the streets that I would sustain myself with bananas because you can buy a whole bundle of them for pennies.
Woops…
If their labeling is confusing or misleading, that's their fault.
I think there may be a labelling law that covers that. I believe that they label on any package has to be an accurate reflection of the package's price. Things like meat that are prepackaged but sold by weight have to be individually labelled/priced on the shelf. Each jurisdiction will have its own rules but they all came from a time in the 1950s when evil supermarkets were attempting to hide higher prices on groceries knowing that few people would check their receipts against the shelf prices.
https://www.nist.gov/system/files/documents/2017/04/28/US-Pr...
Arizona:
F. Except as otherwise provided in this chapter or by rules adopted pursuant to this chapter, any package kept for the purpose of sale or offered or exposed for sale shall bear on the outside of the package a definite, plain and conspicuous declaration of: 4. The price, except as provided in subsections K and L.
DC:
(6) DISPLAY AND ADVERTISING OF CONSUMER COMMODITY UNIT PRICES.--A seller shall conspicuously and clearly display the price per package or unit and the unit price in close proximity to the display of the commodity
https://www.nist.gov/system/files/documents/2017/04/28/US-Pr...
Arizona:
F. Except as otherwise provided in this chapter or by rules adopted pursuant to this chapter, any package kept for the purpose of sale or offered or exposed for sale shall bear on the outside of the package a definite, plain and conspicuous declaration of: 4. The price, except as provided in subsections K and L.
DC:
(6) DISPLAY AND ADVERTISING OF CONSUMER COMMODITY UNIT PRICES.--A seller shall conspicuously and clearly display the price per package or unit and the unit price in close proximity to the display of the commodity
That's the trade off of self checkout scales that try to match what you're buying compared to those that don't seem to care at all. At some stores, it's overly sensitive, and you constantly need attention to get past the system thinking you're trying to steal, and even adding a paper bag is enough to cause problems. At other it doesn't seem like it cares at all, and two items can be on at the same time without it noticing. Maybe they track it all and just review cameras later?
Produce charged by the item is probably hard to account for, but three times the normal weight seems like something that might be safe to trigger on.
Produce charged by the item is probably hard to account for, but three times the normal weight seems like something that might be safe to trigger on.
I really really hate the weighing self-checkout things that are so prevalent in the UK (and I guess US?). They require a special artform of weighing the things just right, putting it one by one in the right basket etc, which is slower than going through a normal check-out.
In contrast one of the bigger chains in The Netherlands has a self-checkout system where you get a small hand scanner to put in a holder on your cart, it doesn't make you weigh anything, just show it the barcode before dropping things in your cart (or easier: put your bag in the cart, put everything straight in the bag). At the exit, drop the scanner thing in a charger, hold your phone in front of the checkout screen, Apple pay, done, straight to the car with your stuff already in your bag.
Their UX guys understand how to optimize. The original version made you press a few buttons to select things like "card payment" (still takes only 30 seconds vs the Tesco several minutes of weighing things), a few years ago they made it default to card payment, so you don't have to press any buttons if you use Apple pay or similar.
I guess only Amazon has an even better thing with their "walk straight our" shop. But it has the same optimization idea: Make it as easy as possible for your customers to buy things.
In contrast one of the bigger chains in The Netherlands has a self-checkout system where you get a small hand scanner to put in a holder on your cart, it doesn't make you weigh anything, just show it the barcode before dropping things in your cart (or easier: put your bag in the cart, put everything straight in the bag). At the exit, drop the scanner thing in a charger, hold your phone in front of the checkout screen, Apple pay, done, straight to the car with your stuff already in your bag.
Their UX guys understand how to optimize. The original version made you press a few buttons to select things like "card payment" (still takes only 30 seconds vs the Tesco several minutes of weighing things), a few years ago they made it default to card payment, so you don't have to press any buttons if you use Apple pay or similar.
I guess only Amazon has an even better thing with their "walk straight our" shop. But it has the same optimization idea: Make it as easy as possible for your customers to buy things.
Yeah, around here Target seems to be easiest. They don't care if you use the scale at all. You can just scan and put into a bag someone with you is holding, or whatever, it never needs to touch the scale. Each self-checkout does have a little security screen above it through that's about 4"x6" that shows you and says you're being recorded, so my guess is that it along with the fact most people are paying with credit makes purposeful fraud fairly low, or at least low enough to be worth while.
I was buying stuff at Home Depot today and you could just scan the stuff directly in your cart without putting it on the scales.
FYI in the UK Waitrose mostly don’t use the scale to verify what you’re putting in.
It’s one one the reasons I shop there - quicker to scan, out directly in a bag, and pay.
It’s one one the reasons I shop there - quicker to scan, out directly in a bag, and pay.
You did not steal, they charged you not enough. Big difference.
Stealing / shoplifting means you had intention.
Stealing / shoplifting means you had intention.
A Danish supermarket chain got all pissy about how you where stealing from them and you’d get reported to the police if you kept the money when their staff gave you the wrong change. It last until customers pointed out that their recipts where wrong in something like 80 - 90% of the time, in the stores favor and they’d now start filling police reports rather than just asking the staff to correct the error.
Sounds like people should start reporting that supermarket chain to the police.
It was self checkout and OP selected the wrong SKU at checkout.
The stealing part didn't happen until later when OP realized his mistake and intentionally chose never to correct it
The stealing part didn't happen until later when OP realized his mistake and intentionally chose never to correct it
Is it assisting a crime if a checker improperly scans an item to the benefit of a shopper without realizing it … then realizes it later and does nothing about it?
Should they be punished?
Should they be punished?
Not punished but they should be hold accountable to return it or pay the money if returning is impossible.
We've had a few cases where people got 2 items instead of 1 delivered. They did not had the right to keep the item, but they did not get punishment other then returning or paying back.
We've had a few cases where people got 2 items instead of 1 delivered. They did not had the right to keep the item, but they did not get punishment other then returning or paying back.
Nope, the responsibility is on both parties (Home Depot and the purchaser) to avoid mistakes like that, because we're all human and we all make mistakes.
Home Depot is partially at fault for a checkout interface that allows the error to be made in the first place.
OP no more "stole" later on than the store "allowed him to take it". It's a gray area where neither party has preponderant fault.
It's going to cost the consumer time/money/effort to return the item, just like it would cost Home Depot time/money/effort to build systems that would avoid more of the mistakes in the first place.
In other words, the consumer has no more obligation to return the item than Home Depot does to prevent the mistakes in the first place. And in the long run it tends to even out -- for every free item you accidentally get from Home Depot that wasn't worth returning, there's probably another item you bought that failed to function as advertised that also wasn't worth returning.
Home Depot is partially at fault for a checkout interface that allows the error to be made in the first place.
OP no more "stole" later on than the store "allowed him to take it". It's a gray area where neither party has preponderant fault.
It's going to cost the consumer time/money/effort to return the item, just like it would cost Home Depot time/money/effort to build systems that would avoid more of the mistakes in the first place.
In other words, the consumer has no more obligation to return the item than Home Depot does to prevent the mistakes in the first place. And in the long run it tends to even out -- for every free item you accidentally get from Home Depot that wasn't worth returning, there's probably another item you bought that failed to function as advertised that also wasn't worth returning.
The annoying thing is that the store again has all the power here. If you get overcharged for something that was supposed to be on sale, scans as the wrong item, or the price label is different than the scan, it is on YOU to notice, then wait in line in person to explain the problem and get it corrected.
There is no penalty for the store and you don’t get any additional compensation, so most people will say, “I guess it’s just $2 so it’s not worth fixing.” But suppose this happens to thousands of people. The company always wins.
There is no penalty for the store and you don’t get any additional compensation, so most people will say, “I guess it’s just $2 so it’s not worth fixing.” But suppose this happens to thousands of people. The company always wins.
"The company always wins."
You're replying to a story where the company lost.
There's a ton of consumer protection laws. I agree companies might have the upper hand, but I think consumers have a lot of recourse here in the US. There's tons of laws, the ability to do chargebacks, etc.
You're replying to a story where the company lost.
There's a ton of consumer protection laws. I agree companies might have the upper hand, but I think consumers have a lot of recourse here in the US. There's tons of laws, the ability to do chargebacks, etc.
> You're replying to a story where the company lost.
When people say "The house always wins" re: casinos, we don't take the rare slots payout as evidence that the outcomes are not, in fact, stacked against the little guy.
When people say "The house always wins" re: casinos, we don't take the rare slots payout as evidence that the outcomes are not, in fact, stacked against the little guy.
What makes being overcharged due to errors more common than being undercharged? If anything I would expect it to be the other way around as it is easier to accidentally fail to scan an item than to accidentally double-scan an item, and personally I'm much more likely to double-check everything when the total comes out surprisingly high than when it comes out surprisingly low.
> What makes being overcharged due to errors more common than being undercharged?
Design? The people making these systems are doing so at the behest of customers who would find overcharging much more acceptable than undercharging.
Design? The people making these systems are doing so at the behest of customers who would find overcharging much more acceptable than undercharging.
I too unintentionally steal from home depot. If you sell assorted individual bolts/nuts/washers, the most convenient place for people to put them is their pockets unless you provide a better option, which they don't. pretty easy to forget about the 3 nuts in your pocket.
I grab one of the buckets and use it as a shopping cart, even if I'm only getting a few nuts and bolts like that, just so I don't accidentally lose one in a pocket.
Of course, that backfired once when I got home and realized I hadn't paid for the bucket.
Of course, that backfired once when I got home and realized I hadn't paid for the bucket.
this is a good idea, because I always need one more bucket than I currently own. same phenomenon as clamps
I don't know who would build a paperclip-maximizing AI, but I'd totally build a clamp-maximizer.
I used to ride motorcycles, sportbikes. I was in a pharmacy once carrying my helmet via the chin strap. Rather than a bag or cart I was putting things into the helmet as if it were a basket. Store security noticed and confronted me in the aisle. They were friendly enough.
Home Depot doesn't sell "Replacement Clamp Pads" for their Bessey "Clutch Style Bar Clamp". They regularly go missing. You're _supposed_ to shop lift them, then the store sends the defective clamps back to be refitted. This is apparently by design.
Those are close but don't fit. They're for pipe clamps.
I had a similar self-checkout error at a home depot. I can't remember what the exact item was but I was buying it in bulk so probably some sort of fastener or screw.
The packaging was clear and the scanner must have gotten the barcode off one of the single items rather than outer bundled item barcode. The cart price was high enough I didn't notice the price difference on one item.
I called and they said not to worry about it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The packaging was clear and the scanner must have gotten the barcode off one of the single items rather than outer bundled item barcode. The cart price was high enough I didn't notice the price difference on one item.
I called and they said not to worry about it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
For me it wasn't dark and stormy, it was hot and smoky...
I discovered my three "No Trespassing" signs were not on the receipt. It is funny that my anti-crime sign ended up being a crime. I spend so damn much money with them though, recently purchased wood chipper, gas powered post driver and tons of other little things. Probably spent a good $2000 in the past 4 months, so I don't feel guilty.
I discovered my three "No Trespassing" signs were not on the receipt. It is funny that my anti-crime sign ended up being a crime. I spend so damn much money with them though, recently purchased wood chipper, gas powered post driver and tons of other little things. Probably spent a good $2000 in the past 4 months, so I don't feel guilty.
Your ideas of morality are interesting for want of a better word.
[deleted]
Is he wrong though? If you went to a shop and spent $2,000 but forgot to pay for 3 items (say worth $5) by accident, I do not think the shop manager should be upset, or that you should feel bad about it? If it was a smaller/non-chain store, it would probably be free! If anything, the main annoyance is probably their stock numbers being out of date.
Making mistakes is human, and I do not think they should feel bad for what they have done (and for not correcting it), and this is coming from someone who cannot steal the bags that now cost 20 pence at Tesco and even went to buy imaginary food at Waitrose after I forgot to pay another time...
Making mistakes is human, and I do not think they should feel bad for what they have done (and for not correcting it), and this is coming from someone who cannot steal the bags that now cost 20 pence at Tesco and even went to buy imaginary food at Waitrose after I forgot to pay another time...
No, he isn't wrong, I just had not thought of it in that way. If you spend a fortune in a store then that creates a bit more leeway for accidents whereas when you walk into a store with the single purpose of relieving them of their wares then that gives a completely different vibe. Intent is what matters and I had not come to this conclusion.
I'm always going out of my way to keep things fair and can be quite rigid about this, never even realized there are shades of gray there.
I'm always going out of my way to keep things fair and can be quite rigid about this, never even realized there are shades of gray there.
The fun parts of 'shades of gray' is this can actually lead to increased sales down the line, if you end up with that quiet nagging "I owe them for .." in the back of your head. Almost like goodwill that the store did nothing to intentionally earn.
Innocent mistakes are incredibly curious beasts.
Innocent mistakes are incredibly curious beasts.
Just to clarify, yes the 3 signs probably total $6. Would I feel guilty if they didn't charge me for a $300 tool? Absolutely not, because I would have gone back in and told them about it.
Thanks for the personal insult.
Insult?
Morality "is interesting for lack of a better word" USUALLY means a negative thing - and you meant it specifically about "my ideas of morality" as a whole - so yes that is an insult. I didn't get "your morality is awesome I wish I was like that" from your statement so I do apologize if I reached and I am wrong about what you meant.
No, I just think it is interesting, and I don't have a better term for it. For me - right up until reading your comment - such a thing was black-and-white, and I see that there is some wiggle room there based on the rest of the relationship, so thank you for that. I do believe that if you were caught in a situation like that on the way to the door from the register that it might cause a lot of trouble though, which in turn might end up with you stopping to visit that particular store.
I've seen enough of this in a local supermarket (Albert Heijn, a large chain in NL), which has switched to self checkout + random checks on a lot of checkout lanes.
Older people that are more or less forced to use the self checkout because there are now too few cashiers end up making mistakes and are then treated like shoplifters if they end up with a random check. Quite frustrating.
I've seen enough of this in a local supermarket (Albert Heijn, a large chain in NL), which has switched to self checkout + random checks on a lot of checkout lanes.
Older people that are more or less forced to use the self checkout because there are now too few cashiers end up making mistakes and are then treated like shoplifters if they end up with a random check. Quite frustrating.
Thanks and I do apologize for the assumption earlier.
For everyone worried about micro-crime the stores and insurance companies already have this priced into "shrinkage". No store can keep a 1:1 correspondence between items purchased and items sold at intended prices to customers and it's only best-effort to approach that correspondence. SLAs of 100% are unrealistic for either stores or customers. In this case the average SLA due to shrink is about 99% across retail sectors (1.38% shrink is the average, 1% the median) [0]. That includes a lot of intentional theft which dwarfs accidental over- and under- payment.
[0] https://www.bluecart.com/blog/inventory-shrinkage
[0] https://www.bluecart.com/blog/inventory-shrinkage
Went to Trader Joe's last year and "treated" myself to a fancy jar of honey. I usually buy the cheap stuff, but this was like a $10 jar of New Zealand honey. I probably spent 3 minutes in front of the display deciding if I should buy it or my usual stuff.
I got in line, grocer bagged (I usually help, but they did all the bagging last year), paid and left. When I got to my car I saw the jar of honey in the corner of the car outside of the bags; they never scanned it. Instead of going back in and paying for it, I just left. Still feel kind of bad for it.
I got in line, grocer bagged (I usually help, but they did all the bagging last year), paid and left. When I got to my car I saw the jar of honey in the corner of the car outside of the bags; they never scanned it. Instead of going back in and paying for it, I just left. Still feel kind of bad for it.
I can one up this. Made an order online and had my contractor go pick up the stuff. I think it wasn't pulled yet so the contractor picked it himself. Few days later I start getting "Your order is ready" e-mails and eventually a cancelled one. Guess they didn't mark it as completed, re-picked it, and then eventually refunded the order when it wasn't picked out.
Though typing this all out it does occur to me that maybe my contractor just walked out with all the stuff.
Though typing this all out it does occur to me that maybe my contractor just walked out with all the stuff.
I did similar thing of sorts with a all in one air fryer though I went to a manned cashier with it and a few other items. I realized once I got home the cashier didn't charge me for the air fryer.
So your not alone re: not going back when You had all intentions of paying and went thru the right process to do so.
The company I'm sure wrote their error down in their billion dollar loss column. Which I shop there regularly and do self check out now more successfully!
So your not alone re: not going back when You had all intentions of paying and went thru the right process to do so.
The company I'm sure wrote their error down in their billion dollar loss column. Which I shop there regularly and do self check out now more successfully!
I've had this happen with a blender at a Target, and a Christmas tree at a Walmart. The cashiers were very much doing it intentionally. That's what happens when you pay people minimum wage!
I used to work retail, and I wouldn't classify this as "shoplifting". It is more appropriate to label this as "Shitty customer service resulting in totally-avoidable shrink".
Propane tanks aren't allowed in stores in most places in the US. Which causes some problems when the folks working at box stores don't know that their store sells (literally) empty ones brand new (vacuumed down from the factory).
I had a new one in my cart, and was told no fewer than 3 times to take it outside between the aisle and the register.
If I hadn't been feeling so damn honest, I'd have followed their instructions to the letter.
I had a new one in my cart, and was told no fewer than 3 times to take it outside between the aisle and the register.
If I hadn't been feeling so damn honest, I'd have followed their instructions to the letter.
Why would one want an empty one?
To have it filled up outside?
Exactly: most places do an exchange program in which you don't own the tank, and aren't responsible for the long term maintenance of it. The propane exchange is marked up to cover that. Based on the expected lifetime of the tank and how much propane you use , it can make sense to own your own tank and pay a lower price per unit on the propane (provided there's somebody nearby who fills tanks).
i wouldn't qualify that as stealing since it was an innocent (although beneficial) mistake
had you plan to confuse the manager to let him ask you to type stuff then it would be different
I had a similar issue one day, while showing some prices to my mother I had to take one box of something out of the shelf. After criticizing the absurd premium of that mall, we walked out. 100m outside the store I notice I still had that box under my arm.. somehow there was no anti-stealing widget and I simply walked out with it unknowingly. It was one petty CDROM label sticker press from the early 2000s, $20 top .. mother and I decided not to go through the hurdle of negotiating good faith return with the security guy. (the irony is that 3 years prior I did steal, out of a joke-then-dare moment with a buddy, stuff and got caught; so when I realized I did "steal" again .. I became livid and started to look at my mother mortified saying I swear I swear I didn't while she looked at me dumbfounded not understand what the hell I was talking about)
had you plan to confuse the manager to let him ask you to type stuff then it would be different
I had a similar issue one day, while showing some prices to my mother I had to take one box of something out of the shelf. After criticizing the absurd premium of that mall, we walked out. 100m outside the store I notice I still had that box under my arm.. somehow there was no anti-stealing widget and I simply walked out with it unknowingly. It was one petty CDROM label sticker press from the early 2000s, $20 top .. mother and I decided not to go through the hurdle of negotiating good faith return with the security guy. (the irony is that 3 years prior I did steal, out of a joke-then-dare moment with a buddy, stuff and got caught; so when I realized I did "steal" again .. I became livid and started to look at my mother mortified saying I swear I swear I didn't while she looked at me dumbfounded not understand what the hell I was talking about)
Bank error (to use monopoly terminology) isn’t the same as bank robbery. This is irrevant to what they’re trying to prevent.
> I paid for two 2-packs of rat traps when in fact I had taken two 4-packs. Do I go back and correct this crime?
I'm curious what you believe the crime was? It's possible the item rang up wrong and you inputted the correct numbers.
And whether you should have gone back--what would you have done if you relised you made the opposite mistake--you paid for two 4-packs, but only taken two 2-packs?
I'm curious what you believe the crime was? It's possible the item rang up wrong and you inputted the correct numbers.
And whether you should have gone back--what would you have done if you relised you made the opposite mistake--you paid for two 4-packs, but only taken two 2-packs?
I accidentally scanned a flank steak as a can of beans since I was holding the can and flank at the same time. The bagging station must have had the weight sensor turned off since I didn't notice the mistake until looking at my receipt at home.
So the question is, did the rat traps work or not?
well written but irrelevant to the article's described effort to protect high-end equipment against organized criminals
No, theft requires intent.
You can go back later and settle up if you make a mistake. If you don't... well now it is theft.
You can go back later and settle up if you make a mistake. If you don't... well now it is theft.
Well, you can still go back and buy 2 two packs at four pack prices and then you wouldn't be a shop lifter anymore.
This post almost reads like "well home depot's UX wasn't very good one day and I was in a hurry so that entitled me to steal guilt free"
This post almost reads like "well home depot's UX wasn't very good one day and I was in a hurry so that entitled me to steal guilt free"
Would you consider it not stealing if it had been the cashier who rang him up?
What if he didn't notice it at all? Is he still "guilty" for the theft, such that it would be fair for police to show up at his doorstep and arrest him if the store detected it and correlated it to this credit card? Is it fair for him to be put in county jail for six months, which is a possible consequence for petty theft?
What if he didn't notice it at all? Is he still "guilty" for the theft, such that it would be fair for police to show up at his doorstep and arrest him if the store detected it and correlated it to this credit card? Is it fair for him to be put in county jail for six months, which is a possible consequence for petty theft?
The stealing part (or rather "dishonesty part") happens when you realize a mistake has been made and intentionally choose not to correct it. If a cashier gives me a $10 bill for change instead of a $1 and I realize the mistake out in the parking lot and choose not to correct it, yes, I am guilty of being dishonest and yes, I am stealing from home depot even though it was 100% the cashier's fault.
I don't see why this is a moral dilemma. If the opposite happened and you got short changed and home depot refused to correct it wouldn't you think home depot stole from you?
I don't see why this is a moral dilemma. If the opposite happened and you got short changed and home depot refused to correct it wouldn't you think home depot stole from you?
What about back at home? Are you morally incumbent to drive back to resolve it? There was no intention for dishonesty on your part; the expectation of you to inconvenience yourself for something you did not intend, for such a small imbalance, strikes me as an unreasonable one. If you noticed it there in the store that they gave you incorrect change and said nothing, yes, I'd agree it was dishonest to say nothing. But when you notice after the fact, the decision to do nothing says more about the level of effort involved rather than morality.
It's also why I don't expect Home Depot to find and pay me should they shortchange me; the level of effort is too large. Is Home Depot morally guilty of theft because the clerk shortchanged me? How would that even work, that the -company- is morally guilty?
It's also why I don't expect Home Depot to find and pay me should they shortchange me; the level of effort is too large. Is Home Depot morally guilty of theft because the clerk shortchanged me? How would that even work, that the -company- is morally guilty?
> What about back at home? Are you morally incumbent to drive back to resolve it?
I mean... Abraham "Honest Abe" Lincoln ostensibly did just that, so I guess it just depends on the value you place on your own integrity.
As for me... if I discovered they had given me a few extra cents in change I probably wouldn't drive back (I probably wouldn't even discover it because I hardly ever count change). But if I realized I hadn't paid for something or that I got more than I paid for (i.e. bought a can of spray paint online and they shipped me 3) I probably would at least contact their customer service and ask if they wanted me to send the two additional cans back.
> It's also why I don't expect Home Depot to find and pay me should they shortchange me; the level of effort is too large.
Ok, what if it happened not because of a negligent clerk but a negligent programmer? You buy a non-existant product on homedepot.com that was there because of a bug and your money just goes into a home depot's pocket and the product is never shipped to you (because it doesn't exist). If home depot discovers this you would expect them to track down and refund anyone who bought the non-existent product, am I wrong? And if they discover the bug and decide to do nothing (because it's too much effort to refund everyone) and just keep the money, wouldn't that be stealing?
I mean... Abraham "Honest Abe" Lincoln ostensibly did just that, so I guess it just depends on the value you place on your own integrity.
As for me... if I discovered they had given me a few extra cents in change I probably wouldn't drive back (I probably wouldn't even discover it because I hardly ever count change). But if I realized I hadn't paid for something or that I got more than I paid for (i.e. bought a can of spray paint online and they shipped me 3) I probably would at least contact their customer service and ask if they wanted me to send the two additional cans back.
> It's also why I don't expect Home Depot to find and pay me should they shortchange me; the level of effort is too large.
Ok, what if it happened not because of a negligent clerk but a negligent programmer? You buy a non-existant product on homedepot.com that was there because of a bug and your money just goes into a home depot's pocket and the product is never shipped to you (because it doesn't exist). If home depot discovers this you would expect them to track down and refund anyone who bought the non-existent product, am I wrong? And if they discover the bug and decide to do nothing (because it's too much effort to refund everyone) and just keep the money, wouldn't that be stealing?
You actually make my point; you're describing something much easier to track, a website purchase. The effort is much lower, you can literally just refund the money, which is a normal part of business operations, so yes, of course i would expect them to.
Would I expect them to find someone who was erroneously charged too much in person, who paid in cash? No, because the effort would be so large.
In terms of contacting customer service, sure. If there's a nice easy way to do so via the internet. If it's, for instance, a phone tree, that after 5 minutes I still haven't gotten a human? Nope. Or if they ask me to do literally anything beyond hand it over to a courier (for, again, the "they shipped me too much"? Nope.
Would I expect them to find someone who was erroneously charged too much in person, who paid in cash? No, because the effort would be so large.
In terms of contacting customer service, sure. If there's a nice easy way to do so via the internet. If it's, for instance, a phone tree, that after 5 minutes I still haven't gotten a human? Nope. Or if they ask me to do literally anything beyond hand it over to a courier (for, again, the "they shipped me too much"? Nope.
Exactly. It does get you funny looks though, when you go back into the store to try to correct an error like that. I've even had employees tell me to get lost because it is too much trouble to fix the error.
> If the opposite happened and you got short changed and home depot refused to correct it wouldn't you think home depot stole from you?
If I got short changed at Home Depot, noticed it after I'd left the store, then returned and asked them to swap $1 for $10 I'd expect to be laughed out of the store.
If I got short changed at Home Depot, noticed it after I'd left the store, then returned and asked them to swap $1 for $10 I'd expect to be laughed out of the store.
Why? I would expect them to count the money in the register, find it is off by $9 compared to what their computer says should be in the register, and then believe your story.
This is a contrived example though. Say you buy something on homedepot.com and they never ship it to you and keep your money? Would you still expect to be laughed at if you call up their customer service and explain?
This is a contrived example though. Say you buy something on homedepot.com and they never ship it to you and keep your money? Would you still expect to be laughed at if you call up their customer service and explain?
$9 means exponentially more to me than it does to a national chain.
During the transaction, yes... it is morally incumbent on both parties to ensure they aren't cheating the other. After the transaction though, the moral calculus shifts, and I'm going to take into account the time/convenience cost to myself (among other factors) when I decide whether or not to rectify it. (I've found out the hard way that companies can make this surprisingly difficult or time-consuming.)
Home Depot near me has all Milwaukee M12 and M18 tools locked up. When the Milwaukee rep was getting something out of the case for me, I mentioned how unfortunate it is that they have to do this. He said they lost over $700k in Milwaukee tools alone in that store last year. Quite amazing and almost hard to believe. I feel sorry for these stores trying to walk the line between respecting your customers and not being robbed blind.
I went to a Home Depot in Seattle a couple of days ago looking for an electric chainsaw (not a Milwaukee). It’s a bit of a drive and I wanted a particular model, so I checked the site for stock before going .. they had eight so off I went.
When I showed up the chainsaw was nowhere to be found, and after looking high and low and triple checking their inventories, the rep said he figured they must have walked. He mentioned a similar figure saying that over $800k of merchandise had disappeared from that aisle (yard equipment) in the last year.
I think it’s real. After the experience repeated itself at a second store, I looked on OfferUp and found the exact chainsaw “new and unopened” at about half the retail price.
I ended up going to a third store before finding one that actually had the tool in stock. That one had installed a makeshift rig of steel bars in front of their stock, and a rep had to physically follow me to the register and watch me pay for it.
There are videos in the Seattle reddits of brazen thieves going into stores and walking off with whatever they like.
It’s bad enough for the big box stores, imagine being a small business trying to survive that environment!
When I showed up the chainsaw was nowhere to be found, and after looking high and low and triple checking their inventories, the rep said he figured they must have walked. He mentioned a similar figure saying that over $800k of merchandise had disappeared from that aisle (yard equipment) in the last year.
I think it’s real. After the experience repeated itself at a second store, I looked on OfferUp and found the exact chainsaw “new and unopened” at about half the retail price.
I ended up going to a third store before finding one that actually had the tool in stock. That one had installed a makeshift rig of steel bars in front of their stock, and a rep had to physically follow me to the register and watch me pay for it.
There are videos in the Seattle reddits of brazen thieves going into stores and walking off with whatever they like.
It’s bad enough for the big box stores, imagine being a small business trying to survive that environment!
> imagine being a small business trying to survive that environment!
I was just at McLendon's yesterday outside Seattle, and while I was waiting to ask an employee a question, over the PA a came a message like, "need help up front. A couple just left the store with a bunch of stolen merchandise." So the dude bolted for the entrance.
It surprised me that the announcement wasn't coded in some way (eg, "code 9 at checkout").
It made me feel quite sad, as McLendon's is pretty awesome, and I'd hate for them to disappear.
I was just at McLendon's yesterday outside Seattle, and while I was waiting to ask an employee a question, over the PA a came a message like, "need help up front. A couple just left the store with a bunch of stolen merchandise." So the dude bolted for the entrance.
It surprised me that the announcement wasn't coded in some way (eg, "code 9 at checkout").
It made me feel quite sad, as McLendon's is pretty awesome, and I'd hate for them to disappear.
Have shopped at McLendon’s many times. Preferred them before I moved, but now they are quite a bit further. That’s terrible that it’s happening to them too, I hope they make it.
I used to be a state security guard. I was required to go to a security convention once a year.
Everyone of these talks stressed that employee internal theft is bigger than customer theft on the whole.
So managment steals the most, followed by the rest of the employees.
This was in the 90's so things might have changed.
Different entities gave the talks.
I don't doubt that 800k number, but I wouldn't rule out the reoresenative of Milwaukee, or the closing managers, or security guards themselfs.
Everytme I was told about employees theft, they said it's retail security's big secret.
Personally, if they treated employees better, internal theft might come down!
When I go into HD, and am being filmed at least 10-15 times before leaving the store; their us a part of me that feels like not paying for that M8 bolt.
Everyone of these talks stressed that employee internal theft is bigger than customer theft on the whole.
So managment steals the most, followed by the rest of the employees.
This was in the 90's so things might have changed.
Different entities gave the talks.
I don't doubt that 800k number, but I wouldn't rule out the reoresenative of Milwaukee, or the closing managers, or security guards themselfs.
Everytme I was told about employees theft, they said it's retail security's big secret.
Personally, if they treated employees better, internal theft might come down!
When I go into HD, and am being filmed at least 10-15 times before leaving the store; their us a part of me that feels like not paying for that M8 bolt.
Relevant song ‘bout how Johnny Cash ended up driving a “…49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57,
58, 59 Automobile.”
Recorded in 1976 as domestic steel & car manufacturing tanked in the United States taking Detroit, Chicago, Pittsburg and much of the Great Lakes with it.
https://youtu.be/18cW_yHo3PY
Recorded in 1976 as domestic steel & car manufacturing tanked in the United States taking Detroit, Chicago, Pittsburg and much of the Great Lakes with it.
https://youtu.be/18cW_yHo3PY
It sounds like that store has deeper problems. They aren't checking thier stock and so do not notice a theft when it happens. That has insurance implications. Also, it suggests inside jobs. If the staff are turning a blind eye to theft, not reporting missing stock, there is a reasonable chance that the staff are involved.
A Home Depot has somewhere around 40,000 different products per store.
The count is always wrong.
It's continually updated, but it's still always wrong. Because the amount of labor cost to ensure it's accurate at all times would be a silly use of scarce resources.
Sometimes it's as simple as a customer picking up an item, wandering around, and dropping it somewhere else. Sometimes it's theft. Sometimes it's an incorrect count in receiving.
All of this is an average day at a warehouse store. Walmart deals with the same thing.
The count is always wrong.
It's continually updated, but it's still always wrong. Because the amount of labor cost to ensure it's accurate at all times would be a silly use of scarce resources.
Sometimes it's as simple as a customer picking up an item, wandering around, and dropping it somewhere else. Sometimes it's theft. Sometimes it's an incorrect count in receiving.
All of this is an average day at a warehouse store. Walmart deals with the same thing.
> Because the amount of labor cost to ensure it's accurate at all times would be a silly use of scarce resources.
I'm no MBA, but if a single store is losing $800,000 of merchandise a year from a single aisle, you could have it guarded 24/7 by guys on $50 an hour and you'd still come out $300k ahead.
Far more likely IMHO is that when the rep said "over $800k of merchandise had disappeared from that aisle" that was actually the loss from all the yard equipment aisles in all stores nationwide.
I'm no MBA, but if a single store is losing $800,000 of merchandise a year from a single aisle, you could have it guarded 24/7 by guys on $50 an hour and you'd still come out $300k ahead.
Far more likely IMHO is that when the rep said "over $800k of merchandise had disappeared from that aisle" that was actually the loss from all the yard equipment aisles in all stores nationwide.
Well those chainsaws were worth $300 ... that's $2400 in one model of chainsaw alone. I'd guess that's about average for prices of equipment in that aisle, with several hundred different items (mowers, weed eaters, blowers, etc.)
If they are having $2400 worth of a single model walk in a year, over 350 different items, they'd get to over $800k in the one store in a heartbeat. My money would be on this was in fact just the one store, if not just the one aisle.
If they are having $2400 worth of a single model walk in a year, over 350 different items, they'd get to over $800k in the one store in a heartbeat. My money would be on this was in fact just the one store, if not just the one aisle.
Eight chainsaws? I dont think they are lying in the wrong aisle. Powertools and other high value items should be stock checked.
Odds are good that they are physically in the store somewhere, but nobody knows where, because they are on a pallet on a shelf sixteen feet up in the air.
How often? Daily?
So ~15 minutes / 60 x ~360 days x ~2000 stores (US) x ~$30/hr ($20+benefits) = $5.4 M in labor costs
... and that's just to check chainsaws.
So ~15 minutes / 60 x ~360 days x ~2000 stores (US) x ~$30/hr ($20+benefits) = $5.4 M in labor costs
... and that's just to check chainsaws.
Assume high value items are the majority of the thefts by value:
$800'000 in thefts from that aisle * 51% for a (slim) majority * 2000 stores = $816M in shrinkage.
If your store is seeing six figure losses due to theft you hire out some Loomis guys or rent-a-cops and park them at both entrances.
That 800k number does seem to get quoted alot in the comments here, I wonder if it's an actual figure or just some part of a training video that sticks with people
$800'000 in thefts from that aisle * 51% for a (slim) majority * 2000 stores = $816M in shrinkage.
If your store is seeing six figure losses due to theft you hire out some Loomis guys or rent-a-cops and park them at both entrances.
That 800k number does seem to get quoted alot in the comments here, I wonder if it's an actual figure or just some part of a training video that sticks with people
Knock the 30 dollars and benefits down to part time 15 an hour employees.
We're down to 2 million.. let's select the 10% worst stores.. we are down to $200,000.
They can check other inventory items and check out customers.
Cheaper than a one second ad during the superbowl
We're down to 2 million.. let's select the 10% worst stores.. we are down to $200,000.
They can check other inventory items and check out customers.
Cheaper than a one second ad during the superbowl
> Knock the 30 dollars and benefits down to part time 15 an hour employees.
So, you're encouraging a business to hire minimum wage labor and schedule so as to avoid paying benefits? And these people (you've just screwed) are the ones you're proposing be granted the responsibility to detect theft?
> let's select the 10% worst stores
Infeasible, as most theft by dollar is organized, which targets a somewhat random scattering of stores, intermittently. Highest shrink retail stores already have additional theft mitigation tech deployed.
> They can check other inventory items and check out customers
Not if they can't be in two places at once. 15 minutes is a fairly middle of the road estimate for: walking to the area, checking the on-shelf number, checking above the rack, and possibly checking the back. If anything, it's already under-estimating the time required.
So, you're encouraging a business to hire minimum wage labor and schedule so as to avoid paying benefits? And these people (you've just screwed) are the ones you're proposing be granted the responsibility to detect theft?
> let's select the 10% worst stores
Infeasible, as most theft by dollar is organized, which targets a somewhat random scattering of stores, intermittently. Highest shrink retail stores already have additional theft mitigation tech deployed.
> They can check other inventory items and check out customers
Not if they can't be in two places at once. 15 minutes is a fairly middle of the road estimate for: walking to the area, checking the on-shelf number, checking above the rack, and possibly checking the back. If anything, it's already under-estimating the time required.
Yes.. or hire students not phds to do the inventory
> a silly use of scarce resources.
When your losses are so bad, it's time to invest more in security.
Accounting together with video evidence can more timely detect thieves, and might be worth it.
When your losses are so bad, it's time to invest more in security.
Accounting together with video evidence can more timely detect thieves, and might be worth it.
Two points:
1. Unless store security catches the thief at the door, many police departments don’t have the resources to track them down. So finding out that you were burgled within a couple days isn’t much better than finding out at a quarterly or even annual inventory.
2. It’s not that big of a problem. From the article: “Organized retail crime costs retailers an average of $719,548 per $1 billion in sales”. Putting that in a more accessible scale, that’s 72¢ per $1,000 of sales.
1. Unless store security catches the thief at the door, many police departments don’t have the resources to track them down. So finding out that you were burgled within a couple days isn’t much better than finding out at a quarterly or even annual inventory.
2. It’s not that big of a problem. From the article: “Organized retail crime costs retailers an average of $719,548 per $1 billion in sales”. Putting that in a more accessible scale, that’s 72¢ per $1,000 of sales.
One point about 1. Even if Store Security DOES catch them at the door. What do you do when the person says "I dont care im taking this and going" and refuses to stop for the security person. The security person is not a cop, and is probably not the very expensive armed security that banks have. If the person calls their bluff not much can be done at that point. And thieves know this.
They then head to their car and leave. You try to take their license plate number. Oh wait it says "tag applied for".
Criminals regularly take the plates off when they do their work, if a cop pulls them over, they can say some story about how they needed to get it reattached, and no cop pulls over a car just because of a "tag applied for" sign because they know it will likely be just that 9 times out of 10, so if they did pull over that car its some other ticket-able offense, but no registration wont be likely part of that ticket.
Maybe you got a picture of their face? Except everyone wears masks now....
They then head to their car and leave. You try to take their license plate number. Oh wait it says "tag applied for".
Criminals regularly take the plates off when they do their work, if a cop pulls them over, they can say some story about how they needed to get it reattached, and no cop pulls over a car just because of a "tag applied for" sign because they know it will likely be just that 9 times out of 10, so if they did pull over that car its some other ticket-able offense, but no registration wont be likely part of that ticket.
Maybe you got a picture of their face? Except everyone wears masks now....
I see so many missing plates these days in SoCal. Also no plate on the front. I point them out to my wife sometimes when I am bored, we'll see dozens on a 10 minute trip. I'm told by a friend who is a DA (in California) that police here are not legally allowed to stop you today for plate violations. Instead, they are only allowed to issue fines for plate violations as part of another routine stop. I also have a neighbor has a temporary paper plate on one of his vehicles that expired over 14 months ago. If there's no incentive to care then people won't care, I guess.
When I lived in Los Angeles a long time ago I didn't drive much so I never got around to renewing my plates (from another state). For nearly two years, it was never a problem.
In some states (e.g. MA, NY I'm pretty sure) security cannot legally prevent anyone from leaving. The best they can do is stand in the way to slow someone down. Source: heard from an independent jeweler in New York City.
What is a "tag-applied for" sign? Some sort of temporary licence plate? In Ontario, temporary registration is a normal licence plate with a "T" registration sticker, instead of an annual sticker.
Its a piece of paper that literally says "tag applied for". If you buy a car from an individual/non dealer you get a certain amount of time (couple of weeks to 30 days depending on state) to get a new tag for it. Until that point you can drive it basically unregistered.
All the ambiguity involving that means you can basically just take off your license plate whenever you want and police dont look at as a particularly unusual or noteworthy thing to run across. Even if you dont put "tag applied for" at all most cops just assume thats the situation and wont pull you over for just that unless you are having some other violation going on.
I had a coworker who was robbed earlier this year and the person left in a car with a you guessed it "tag applied for" paper on the license plate section of their car.
All the ambiguity involving that means you can basically just take off your license plate whenever you want and police dont look at as a particularly unusual or noteworthy thing to run across. Even if you dont put "tag applied for" at all most cops just assume thats the situation and wont pull you over for just that unless you are having some other violation going on.
I had a coworker who was robbed earlier this year and the person left in a car with a you guessed it "tag applied for" paper on the license plate section of their car.
Where I live (Massachusetts) it's a barely legible piece of paper you tape in your rear window.
It's all part of retail business. Whether it's employee theft, customer theft, broken items on shelves, or returns of faulty items, it's all a part of doing business and it factors into the sticker price.
This isn't just a Home Depot exception. All retail has shrink around this level. And has for essentially all of its existence.
Which is one reason online prices can be cheaper.
Which is one reason online prices can be cheaper.
How many of them are over $500.00? Check those first.
No implication of insiders imho - rarely do reps see exactly what is stolen and can -- that line item. Many stores do a (costly) stock inventory check once a year, literally going from shelf to shelf and counting what's there, then that is crosschecked and corrects the store inventory database.
[deleted]
Why do people think giant multi-billion dollar stores have "insurance" for shoplifting of various items of merchandise?
How would such a policy even work, how would you price and underwrite it, and evaluate risk? How would claims be processed? Is there any evidence anywhere that this is actually a thing?
How would such a policy even work, how would you price and underwrite it, and evaluate risk? How would claims be processed? Is there any evidence anywhere that this is actually a thing?
At these sizes, insurance is more about taxation than cost recovery. Even of they are effectively self-insured, Home Depo does indeed have an interest in documenting all losses.
Are we sure that Home Depot has already paid for the items sitting on the shelves? I've seen them do so many returns by marking things Return To Vendor. Margins these days seem to be based around branding/design/quality control rather than sunk production cost, and I'd imagine that retail stores have optimized things so that they aren't assuming the full wholesale-cost risk of theft/damage/clearance.
Depends on how long the item has been sitting on that shelf. They usually factor their invoices to attract suppliers, so they pay their factoring bank a few weeks after the item has been received.
> When I showed up the chainsaw was nowhere to be found, and after looking high and low and triple checking their inventories, the rep said he figured they must have walked.
I've always chalked this up to poor inventory management practices. I've gone to Home Depot for first aid kits, counter tops, smoke alarms, pipe fittings, etc and had the same experience. They show X in stock but none can be found.
We had similar issues when I worked at Office Max in high school, it was usually someone putting overhead stock in the wrong location because they just couldn't be bothered.
I've always chalked this up to poor inventory management practices. I've gone to Home Depot for first aid kits, counter tops, smoke alarms, pipe fittings, etc and had the same experience. They show X in stock but none can be found.
We had similar issues when I worked at Office Max in high school, it was usually someone putting overhead stock in the wrong location because they just couldn't be bothered.
I've talked about this with some liquor store owners in SF and also a couple that has a "cute things for your home" store. For small stores it's easier to deal with this because they, let's say, try to proactively stop theft. Big chain stores just usually have some kind of dumb policy to not do anything even though they are legally allowed even in cities like San Francisco that are notoriously anti-big-bussiness in the street. The word spreads around.
For example the spike in theft on Wallgrees in SF did start when they changed their policy about a year ago. Before they changed it I saw the store manager in the Wallgreens on 23rd and Mission literally kick the shit out of people that were trying to walk out with merchandise without paying.
For example the spike in theft on Wallgrees in SF did start when they changed their policy about a year ago. Before they changed it I saw the store manager in the Wallgreens on 23rd and Mission literally kick the shit out of people that were trying to walk out with merchandise without paying.
A seriously large amount of the goods on Offerup are stolen. It's insane.
I do wonder how much of the modern app or second hand selling community is based on grift and stolen goods. On my local OfferUp in Philadelphia it looks like 30-40% scams(Giving away for free for my birthday text at XXX) 30-40% obviously stolen goods(iCloud locked devices). The small remaining posts are clothes and other items, finding a legitimate item for sale can be a real struggle.
> That one had installed a makeshift rig of steel bars in front of their stock, and a rep had to physically follow me to the register and watch me pay for it.
Had a similar experience recently in a Home Depot when buying a power drill. The rep took the drill and handed it to the cashier and I didn't physically touch it until it was paid for.
Had a similar experience recently in a Home Depot when buying a power drill. The rep took the drill and handed it to the cashier and I didn't physically touch it until it was paid for.
The Aurora store is such a blast too, the area is something to witness right around sunset.
> It’s bad enough for the big box stores, imagine being a small business trying to survive that environment!
I'd guess that small businesses aren't as targeted by organized thieves as "big box" stores are:
1) They're smaller in size which means the likelihood of getting spotted by a staff member during a theft is higher
2) The amount (and diversity) of available goods to steal is lower
3) "Big box" stores don't have people carrying guns, their staff has a "don't intervene, we're insured anyway" policy drilled into them, and this is known. A small shopkeeper however? A thief can't reasonably know if the shop owner has a firearm under their desk or will get confrontational if stopped.
> After the experience repeated itself at a second store, I looked on OfferUp and found the exact chainsaw “new and unopened” at about half the retail price.
The really interesting thing is: why does the police not "follow the money" and take out those advertising likely-stolen tools for sale in the open?
I'd guess that small businesses aren't as targeted by organized thieves as "big box" stores are:
1) They're smaller in size which means the likelihood of getting spotted by a staff member during a theft is higher
2) The amount (and diversity) of available goods to steal is lower
3) "Big box" stores don't have people carrying guns, their staff has a "don't intervene, we're insured anyway" policy drilled into them, and this is known. A small shopkeeper however? A thief can't reasonably know if the shop owner has a firearm under their desk or will get confrontational if stopped.
> After the experience repeated itself at a second store, I looked on OfferUp and found the exact chainsaw “new and unopened” at about half the retail price.
The really interesting thing is: why does the police not "follow the money" and take out those advertising likely-stolen tools for sale in the open?
Regarding your last question, the city has for a while now decided not to prosecute shoplifting cases. Here is an article from 2018 about the phenomenon. It has gotten worse since then and the open street bazaars of stolen goods have grown much larger. I’ve decided to move to greener pastures a few months ago, but during a company event when I traveled back the CVS next to the hotel was brazenly shoplifted from the two times I stepped inside to buy essentials.
https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/tonight-at-5-pm-on-kiro-7-o...
https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/tonight-at-5-pm-on-kiro-7-o...
1) many thieves doesn't care. The most brazen ones simply fill up a large sportsbag or similar, then just leave. They don't care if someone spots them, they win on signalling pure aggression and implicit threat of "if you try to stop me I will hurt you". We have that problem at our local food store - three guys come in, one holds the bag, one stuffs it with all the expensive meat, the third stares aggressively on any bystander. Then they just walk out of there.
2) doesn't matter as long as what they have is valuable and can be sold on easily. The thieves are not opening a store on their own.
2) doesn't matter as long as what they have is valuable and can be sold on easily. The thieves are not opening a store on their own.
[deleted]
> The really interesting thing is: why does the police not "follow the money" and take out those advertising likely-stolen tools for sale in the open?
Too costly to prosecute. How can you prove that this specific chainsaw has been stolen? "Yes, I am selling my chainsaw. No, I won't talk to you, officer, unless I am under arrest and I have my lawyer present."
Then you arrest them and what? You need something to show the jury.
Too costly to prosecute. How can you prove that this specific chainsaw has been stolen? "Yes, I am selling my chainsaw. No, I won't talk to you, officer, unless I am under arrest and I have my lawyer present."
Then you arrest them and what? You need something to show the jury.
Why don't hardware retail shops use the same method that banks and IT retail shops use - tracking device serial numbers? When I go to the parts shop next door and buy an SSD, I get an invoice with the serial number written on it. This small inconvenience for the checkout staff should well be worth the hundreds of thousands of dollars in stolen equipment...
At the home depot near me if you move the set of sockets an alarm will start beeping.
Recently I bought a pressure washer. When I got home I realized the hose was missing. When I got to home depot to return it I realized that it wasn't even the right pressure washer in the box. Clearly someone had bought a new one and then put their old on in the box and returned it as new. Home Depot took care of me no questions and it made me feel like they must see kind of thing a lot.
Recently I bought a pressure washer. When I got home I realized the hose was missing. When I got to home depot to return it I realized that it wasn't even the right pressure washer in the box. Clearly someone had bought a new one and then put their old on in the box and returned it as new. Home Depot took care of me no questions and it made me feel like they must see kind of thing a lot.
Returns are a huge source of fraud.
And it's difficult to solve, for the same reasons listed in this article: any solution (e.g. checking items fully) results in a worse customer experience (longer lines and delays).
So, you try and pick a sweet spot along the curve, where you prevent the worst excesses but are still able to keep your (non-thieving) customers happy.
And it's difficult to solve, for the same reasons listed in this article: any solution (e.g. checking items fully) results in a worse customer experience (longer lines and delays).
So, you try and pick a sweet spot along the curve, where you prevent the worst excesses but are still able to keep your (non-thieving) customers happy.
In the bay area and California in general, they've been basically been told that they're on their own regarding thefts. One can simply walk in and take hundreds of dollars worth of merchandise and leave, because the DA will not prosecute. Security guards won't intervene, and the thieves know all this. It has become a spectacle.
Between online sales and this, I sympathize with anyone in brick and mortar retail sales.
https://www.sfchronicle.com/news/article/Prop-47-which-reduc...
https://news.yahoo.com/looters-ransack-san-francisco-neiman-...
Between online sales and this, I sympathize with anyone in brick and mortar retail sales.
https://www.sfchronicle.com/news/article/Prop-47-which-reduc...
https://news.yahoo.com/looters-ransack-san-francisco-neiman-...
This is mostly bullshit. Crime rates in California and SF are comparable to the rest of the country. However there seems to be a concerted effort to push back on any reductions in moronic "tough on crime" policies from the 80s and 90s. Thefts under $1k should be a misdemeanor. How the hell were they ever a felony? In Canada theft under $5k is punishable by a maximum of 2 years in jail (with most people getting a lot less) and retailers seem to be doing ok.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/06/14/bogus-bac...
Edit: The media seems to be in a real crime frenzy right now. Exhibit A is this bullshit graph that swaps the x axis to make it look like crime is rising: https://daringfireball.net/linked/2021/06/24/cnn-chart-crime
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/06/14/bogus-bac...
Edit: The media seems to be in a real crime frenzy right now. Exhibit A is this bullshit graph that swaps the x axis to make it look like crime is rising: https://daringfireball.net/linked/2021/06/24/cnn-chart-crime
If people have learnt not to report crimes (because it makes no difference), the police have learnt to not arrest people for non-violent crimes (because the DA won't prosecute), do you think that might affect the crime rates? If so, in which direction?
> If people have learnt not to report crimes (because it makes no difference)
I call bullshit on people saying there's widespread crime not being reported. If your car window got smashed if you are either:
- A Lyft or Uber driver
- Your car was a rental
- You have a lease on your car
- Have "premium" or expensive home or car insurance
you get actual money from filing a police report from your insurance provider.
If your gadgets get stolen in the street a lot of credit cards or stuff like Apple care, and also some home insurance, will cover part of getting a replacement. But you also have to file a police report.
I really doubt most people are "learning to not report crime" when they literally can get payed for it.
I call bullshit on people saying there's widespread crime not being reported. If your car window got smashed if you are either:
- A Lyft or Uber driver
- Your car was a rental
- You have a lease on your car
- Have "premium" or expensive home or car insurance
you get actual money from filing a police report from your insurance provider.
If your gadgets get stolen in the street a lot of credit cards or stuff like Apple care, and also some home insurance, will cover part of getting a replacement. But you also have to file a police report.
I really doubt most people are "learning to not report crime" when they literally can get payed for it.
When I was in SF I went through 3 windows a year and knew several folks in the same boat. Never reported one or heard of someone reporting one.
Most rationales were people don't have insurance coverage damage or don't have proof of property loss (receipts, ect).
Would not be surprised if actual numbers were 10-50x the reported
Most rationales were people don't have insurance coverage damage or don't have proof of property loss (receipts, ect).
Would not be surprised if actual numbers were 10-50x the reported
Insurance won't always ask you for a police report. They're not going to chase someone down for a $150 window. If you break your own window on accident, I don't think they care much about the difference.
Target has started closing their San Francisco stores at 6pm as a response to the increase in theft. Do you really think that this wasn't a data-driven decision, and that Target as a whole just got swept up in some kind of racist moral panic?
IMO it doesn't matter if your theft is a felony or misdemeanor, police should still patrol and try to pursue it. Cops, however, claim they are overworked and understaffed to do this.
This is the "broken windows" theory- if you let minor crimes like shoplifting go unpunished in a city, more people will do it.
This is the "broken windows" theory- if you let minor crimes like shoplifting go unpunished in a city, more people will do it.
Target has been reducing hours of employees throughout the country.
This may be true, but that is distinct from closing before dark (which I haven't seen in any other place.)
A relatively-new (built in the last two years) Taco Bell near me has a sign up saying that they are only open 4PM-10PM, drive-thru only. Something weird is going on with employment. It's as if some of these big firms will suffer some huge penalty the moment their average wages go over a certain threshold.
The drive-thru only restriction is almost certainly because of COVID.
... But the hours restriction is interesting. I've noticed weird hours at the Taco Bell near my place, and this is probably purely anecdotal, but it does make me sort of wonder if there's something unique to Taco Bell making it hard for them to flesh out their hours.
... But the hours restriction is interesting. I've noticed weird hours at the Taco Bell near my place, and this is probably purely anecdotal, but it does make me sort of wonder if there's something unique to Taco Bell making it hard for them to flesh out their hours.
If the Canadian maximum is 2years, then that i would be a felony by US standards.
Canadian law also has subtle differences such as hybrid offenses whereby prosecutors can decide whether to charge as a felony or misdemeanor, for exactly the same crime/facts. Such a concept would be entirely unconstitutional under US law. So direct comparisons between the countries re possible punishments are complicated.
Canadian law also has subtle differences such as hybrid offenses whereby prosecutors can decide whether to charge as a felony or misdemeanor, for exactly the same crime/facts. Such a concept would be entirely unconstitutional under US law. So direct comparisons between the countries re possible punishments are complicated.
I dunno... the people at our SF office talk about car break-ins happening roughly yearly and when I visit SF I see signs disclaiming responsibility for theft everywhere.
I have no problem with any theft being a felony.
You're stealing something.
What makes "stealing less than $1k" more acceptable?
You're stealing something.
What makes "stealing less than $1k" more acceptable?
Why not just make everything a felony then?
The purpose of grading is to provide an appropriate punishment. I'm my state, the grading for retail theft starts low, but depends on the value of the item. After a few times it becomes a felony for anything, such as a man who was in the news as getting a felony for stealing a candy bar. If it's always going to be a felony with potential prison time, then people might think "why not steal that riding lawn mower if the punishment is the same as a candy bar". Same risk, might as well increase the reward.
The purpose of grading is to provide an appropriate punishment. I'm my state, the grading for retail theft starts low, but depends on the value of the item. After a few times it becomes a felony for anything, such as a man who was in the news as getting a felony for stealing a candy bar. If it's always going to be a felony with potential prison time, then people might think "why not steal that riding lawn mower if the punishment is the same as a candy bar". Same risk, might as well increase the reward.
Theft seems pretty clear. Either you pay for something, or you don't. If you don't, you know you didn't.
I don't see how "light theft" is something we should tolerate.
If we want to talk about humane solutions, carve out an exception for food theft. But nobody is stealing a $500 drill because they're starving for power tools.
(And, this isn't just me expressing personal moral preferences. Theft is a tax on everyone who does pay for goods, via price increases)
I don't see how "light theft" is something we should tolerate.
If we want to talk about humane solutions, carve out an exception for food theft. But nobody is stealing a $500 drill because they're starving for power tools.
(And, this isn't just me expressing personal moral preferences. Theft is a tax on everyone who does pay for goods, via price increases)
"Either you pay for something, or you don't. If you don't, you know you didn't."
That's not exactly true. There can be items that are confusing, such as whether or not a bin or bucket comes with a lid. With the advent of self checkouts, it's also possible that someone rings up an item incorrectly just by accident, especially with non bar codes items. People could be prosecuted for this depending on the state's requirements. The burden of proof can be quiet low.
"But nobody is stealing a $500 drill because they're starving for power tools."
Here you are using $500 as an example. Do you feel the same if someone takes an extra 10 cent washer?
"If we want to talk about humane solutions, carve out an exception for food theft."
I don't think food theft should be an exception - just the same as the current grading tier. There are many programs and food banks that people can use to get food.
What are your thoughts on other crimes with different gradings? Should assault always be a felony? Should speeding always be considered reckless endangerment?
Again, the grading is supposed to provide an appropriate punishment based on the severity of the crime.
That's not exactly true. There can be items that are confusing, such as whether or not a bin or bucket comes with a lid. With the advent of self checkouts, it's also possible that someone rings up an item incorrectly just by accident, especially with non bar codes items. People could be prosecuted for this depending on the state's requirements. The burden of proof can be quiet low.
"But nobody is stealing a $500 drill because they're starving for power tools."
Here you are using $500 as an example. Do you feel the same if someone takes an extra 10 cent washer?
"If we want to talk about humane solutions, carve out an exception for food theft."
I don't think food theft should be an exception - just the same as the current grading tier. There are many programs and food banks that people can use to get food.
What are your thoughts on other crimes with different gradings? Should assault always be a felony? Should speeding always be considered reckless endangerment?
Again, the grading is supposed to provide an appropriate punishment based on the severity of the crime.
If a store prosecutes their customers for stealing a $0.10 washer, they won't have customers for long.
My personal opinion is that the severity of consequence should be relative to the people the crime affects.
Theft (retail, insurance, etc) exists in this weird limbo where the primary victim (the business) isn't the customer. However, it's ultimately the customer who pays.
So light-touching theft prosecution is effectively not caring about taxing customers. Most of whom don't even know they're being taxed.
My personal opinion is that the severity of consequence should be relative to the people the crime affects.
Theft (retail, insurance, etc) exists in this weird limbo where the primary victim (the business) isn't the customer. However, it's ultimately the customer who pays.
So light-touching theft prosecution is effectively not caring about taxing customers. Most of whom don't even know they're being taxed.
Yeah, most stores have limits and try to resolve any possible misunderstandings. Walmart prosecutes starting at $20.
Maybe your state is different, but I wouldn't call it light touching in my state. First offense, is a summary offense if the merchandise was under $150. That's a fine, restitution, and up to 90 days in jail. So possibly a light touch if there's no jail time, but generally going to jail means losing your job and such for lack of attendance. Higher amounts or subsequent offenses constitute misdemeanors (up to 3 years in prison), or felonies (up to 5 years in prison. Even without prison terms, people can lose their job, be denied jobs, lose their rights, etc from these higher level penalties. Which I think is fine when there's this step grading for value and repeat offenses (still some outliers like a man getting a felony for a candy bar, although it seemed like he probably had a mental issue that was causing these low dollar thefts, so probably needs to have some exception to get these people treatment). I believe this serves the purpose of preventing and rehabilitating low level offenders so that they don't become larger offenders in the future, and if they do then they get higher penalties.
Maybe your state is different, but I wouldn't call it light touching in my state. First offense, is a summary offense if the merchandise was under $150. That's a fine, restitution, and up to 90 days in jail. So possibly a light touch if there's no jail time, but generally going to jail means losing your job and such for lack of attendance. Higher amounts or subsequent offenses constitute misdemeanors (up to 3 years in prison), or felonies (up to 5 years in prison. Even without prison terms, people can lose their job, be denied jobs, lose their rights, etc from these higher level penalties. Which I think is fine when there's this step grading for value and repeat offenses (still some outliers like a man getting a felony for a candy bar, although it seemed like he probably had a mental issue that was causing these low dollar thefts, so probably needs to have some exception to get these people treatment). I believe this serves the purpose of preventing and rehabilitating low level offenders so that they don't become larger offenders in the future, and if they do then they get higher penalties.
So some old lady who doesn't scan a can of beans right at Walmart is a felon?
I don't think you've thought this one out.
I don't think you've thought this one out.
> If we want to talk about humane solutions, carve out an exception for food theft.
I bet then somebody will invent a microchipped, DRMed food just for the sake of it.
I bet then somebody will invent a microchipped, DRMed food just for the sake of it.
Any theft? Should a kid stealing a pack of bubble gum be labeled a felon?
If we're talking about the USA, it depends on the color of the kid's skin. White juveniles are sent home with a stern verbal admonishment, black juveniles are sent to prison at the first opportunity.
If you're gonna race bait at least provide proof.
GP is not an example of "race baiting". You "conservatives" sure don't care to conserve the English language.
https://splinternews.com/if-youre-confused-about-what-race-b...
https://splinternews.com/if-youre-confused-about-what-race-b...
Evidence is widely available and not difficult to locate:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_incarceration_in_the_Uni...
>In 1995, African American youths made up 12% of the population, but were arrested at rates double those for Caucasian youths. The trend towards adult adjudication has had implications for the racial make-up of the juvenile prison population as well. Minority youth tried in adult courts are much more likely to be sentenced to serve prison time than white youth offenders arrested for similar crimes.
https://thecrimereport.org/2021/06/17/racial-disparities-per...
>According to the Equal Justice Initiative, Black children are more than twice as likely as white kids to be arrested, even though they’re not committing more crimes, but because Black Kids are burdened by a “presumption of guilt and dangerousness,” which leads youth of color to have higher rates of stops, searches, violence, suspension, and disproportionate contact with the juvenile justice system.
https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/racial-dispar...
>As of 2013, black juveniles were more than four times as likely to be committed as white juveniles, Americans Indian juveniles were more than three times as likely, and Hispanic juveniles were 61 percent more likely.
http://jaapl.org/content/early/2019/02/13/JAAPL.003828-19
>However, research has documented the existence of racial disparity in the treatment of youth involved in the juvenile justice system for several decades. Studies from the 1980s and 1990s demonstrated that black juveniles were detained and confined at higher rates compared with white youth, and that black youth were more likely to be sent to correctional facilities compared with white youth, who were more likely to be sent to psychiatric hospitals. Additionally, recent studies have documented the continued trend of overrepresentation of minority youth in the juvenile justice system
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_incarceration_in_the_Uni...
>In 1995, African American youths made up 12% of the population, but were arrested at rates double those for Caucasian youths. The trend towards adult adjudication has had implications for the racial make-up of the juvenile prison population as well. Minority youth tried in adult courts are much more likely to be sentenced to serve prison time than white youth offenders arrested for similar crimes.
https://thecrimereport.org/2021/06/17/racial-disparities-per...
>According to the Equal Justice Initiative, Black children are more than twice as likely as white kids to be arrested, even though they’re not committing more crimes, but because Black Kids are burdened by a “presumption of guilt and dangerousness,” which leads youth of color to have higher rates of stops, searches, violence, suspension, and disproportionate contact with the juvenile justice system.
https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/racial-dispar...
>As of 2013, black juveniles were more than four times as likely to be committed as white juveniles, Americans Indian juveniles were more than three times as likely, and Hispanic juveniles were 61 percent more likely.
http://jaapl.org/content/early/2019/02/13/JAAPL.003828-19
>However, research has documented the existence of racial disparity in the treatment of youth involved in the juvenile justice system for several decades. Studies from the 1980s and 1990s demonstrated that black juveniles were detained and confined at higher rates compared with white youth, and that black youth were more likely to be sent to correctional facilities compared with white youth, who were more likely to be sent to psychiatric hospitals. Additionally, recent studies have documented the continued trend of overrepresentation of minority youth in the juvenile justice system
Proof of higher incarceration is not proof of unequal application of law. Additionally, sentencing takes into account past actions of the individual.
Did they commit more crimes?
Additionally if the whole racial bias theory is true (i don't agree that it is) then why should be incarcerating blacks less? I think the appropriate response would be to incarcerate white people more often.
Did they commit more crimes?
Additionally if the whole racial bias theory is true (i don't agree that it is) then why should be incarcerating blacks less? I think the appropriate response would be to incarcerate white people more often.
>Did they commit more crimes?
As I quoted earlier:
>Black children are more than twice as likely as white kids to be arrested, even though they’re not committing more crimes
As I quoted earlier:
>Black children are more than twice as likely as white kids to be arrested, even though they’re not committing more crimes
I'm not seeing the data, please link it. All I see are some quotes referring to a Mother Jones article and a lot of assumptions.
You need data showing white kids are stopped for crime and released to prove this, not just some random left leaning organizations that says it's true.
You need data showing white kids are stopped for crime and released to prove this, not just some random left leaning organizations that says it's true.
>What makes "stealing less than $1k" more acceptable?
The cost to the victim. Someone grabs a few unsecured tie downs off a truck at a truck stop that's a hundred bucks. Someone scraps some spools of copper stolen from a job site and it could be thousands.
I think having a step function where you define all theft below a dollar amount as one type and then above as a different type is just legacy code from back in the day when it wasn't reasonable for the legislature to just say "the fine will be X-times the replacement cost of the goods or an equivalent jail time as determined by table Y in appendix Z" and expect the courts to be able to enforce it in an efficient enough manner.
The fact that we we have basically two classes of crime that include both violent and nonviolent crime results in a lot of overlap where you can have some pretty bad misdemeanors and some pretty mild felonies all depending on legal technicalities.
The cost to the victim. Someone grabs a few unsecured tie downs off a truck at a truck stop that's a hundred bucks. Someone scraps some spools of copper stolen from a job site and it could be thousands.
I think having a step function where you define all theft below a dollar amount as one type and then above as a different type is just legacy code from back in the day when it wasn't reasonable for the legislature to just say "the fine will be X-times the replacement cost of the goods or an equivalent jail time as determined by table Y in appendix Z" and expect the courts to be able to enforce it in an efficient enough manner.
The fact that we we have basically two classes of crime that include both violent and nonviolent crime results in a lot of overlap where you can have some pretty bad misdemeanors and some pretty mild felonies all depending on legal technicalities.
Don't forget summary offenses. Some of them can carry jail time. In PA you can get 90 days in jail for having a dog get loose from your yard. Additionally, a second offense within one year becomes a misdemeanor.
Because it's worth less. I don't understand how it's okay for punishment to have degrees but crime is black and white?
This is NOT bullshit. Do you live in SF? I live right next to the CVS/Walgreens that are targeted in Soma and I can guarantee you you'll see someone robbing them blind if you stay in there for about 1 hour in there.
I go in there to buy something small once in a while and 1 out of 4 times I see some guy just grabbing and walking out while the security watches him steal right before their eyes.
I go in there to buy something small once in a while and 1 out of 4 times I see some guy just grabbing and walking out while the security watches him steal right before their eyes.
> Crime rates in California and SF are comparable to the rest of the country.
I don't know who's in the wrong here, but if the comment you're replying to was correct and DA wouldn't persecute these cases, wouldn't it also mean that they wouldn't appear in statistics you're quoting as well?
I don't know who's in the wrong here, but if the comment you're replying to was correct and DA wouldn't persecute these cases, wouldn't it also mean that they wouldn't appear in statistics you're quoting as well?
> However there seems to be a concerted effort to push back on any reductions in moronic "tough on crime" policies from the 80s and 90s.
I'd say. We just elected one of the architects as president.
I'd say. We just elected one of the architects as president.
[deleted]
Simply incorrect. Many, many stores have closed or reduced hours in SF because of the rampant crime. No other city is doing that.
Theft under $5k in Canada is an indictable offense which is the same as a felony in Canada.
*if the value of what is stolen is not more than $5,000, is guilty
(i) of an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years*
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/section-334.ht...
*if the value of what is stolen is not more than $5,000, is guilty
(i) of an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years*
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/section-334.ht...
[deleted]
evgen(1)
>Thefts under $1k should be a misdemeanor.
Why? What does Canada have to do with the US?
>and retailers seem to be doing ok.
I'm sure they big box stores are just fine, they just pass the cost on to the consumer. It doesn't end so well for the small businesses.
Why? What does Canada have to do with the US?
>and retailers seem to be doing ok.
I'm sure they big box stores are just fine, they just pass the cost on to the consumer. It doesn't end so well for the small businesses.
I’ve spent a lot of time at Bay Area Home Depots, and I’ve only seen blatant theft once, and the security guards did attempt to intervene.
What is the support for your statement?
Also “the DA” is a ton of different people throughout the Bay Area, and the DA that everybody complains about has exactly 0 HDs in his jurisdiction.
What is the support for your statement?
Also “the DA” is a ton of different people throughout the Bay Area, and the DA that everybody complains about has exactly 0 HDs in his jurisdiction.
285 murders in San Fran last year, a 35% increase. I didn't witness a single one, but I think they really did happen.
https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/A-violent-year-Bay...
https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/A-violent-year-Bay...
It was a State level Proposition as far as I am aware, so it isn't merely the case of one problematic DA. I could be misunderstanding something though.
The state level proposition does not require DAs to ignore shoplifting. It just turns it (and a few other crimes) from felonies into misdemeanors when the amount involved does not exceed $950.
Misdemeanor shoplifting can still earn up to 180 days in county jail and a fine of up to $1000, but only if a DA prosecutes.
Misdemeanor shoplifting can still earn up to 180 days in county jail and a fine of up to $1000, but only if a DA prosecutes.
Statewide laws still rely on local law enforcement and prosecutors to be enforced.
I've heard of the Walgreens issues, the topic, and am not doubting you -- however, i'm curious what is stopping more widespread theft. Given the no-prosecution stance, I can even imagine theft-tourism where people come from other cities and states to steal. Recalling NYC in the 1980s, people would even reach arms through and under metal hoods to steal, I could only imagine what happens if it can be done w/o consequence.
What is preventing that? Is it human good nature or is there some understanding that blatant/planned cases will indeed be pursued?
What is preventing that? Is it human good nature or is there some understanding that blatant/planned cases will indeed be pursued?
Consider the possibility that the crime wave is not real but a narrative being spun up to try to get "tough on crime" laws back on the agenda. From: https://www.relevantmagazine.com/current/nation/no-san-franc...
> The San Francisco Police Department is actually seeing a dip in crime in 2021, part of a larger overall downward trend. Property crimes are down nearly 8 percent so far in 2021, and larceny theft — the category of crime that includes shoplifting — is down 14.4 percent.
> The San Francisco Police Department is actually seeing a dip in crime in 2021, part of a larger overall downward trend. Property crimes are down nearly 8 percent so far in 2021, and larceny theft — the category of crime that includes shoplifting — is down 14.4 percent.
Kind of hard not to see a dip after how summer of 2020 went. I'll wait to see whether the trend continues.
That's an artifact of people no longer reporting theft for inefficacy.
Why should one go through the trouble of filing police reports if they aren't/can't do anything about it?
Ironically this makes your dip in crime statistics as cooked up a narrative with rhetorical purposes as what you just suggested.
Always take data with a grain of salt, and avoid mixing up the map with the territory.
Why should one go through the trouble of filing police reports if they aren't/can't do anything about it?
Ironically this makes your dip in crime statistics as cooked up a narrative with rhetorical purposes as what you just suggested.
Always take data with a grain of salt, and avoid mixing up the map with the territory.
This is moving the goalposts vs. the GP. He claimed it was the DAs not prosecuting that was the problem. Now the police are in on it too and not even arresting suspects?
Incidentally, the Walgreens shoplifter was arrested and is facing 16 charges: https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/22/us/shoplifting-san-francisco-...
Incidentally, the Walgreens shoplifter was arrested and is facing 16 charges: https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/22/us/shoplifting-san-francisco-...
I'm not in California, but over here, the cops call the DA first to see if they will accept charges before making an arrest. In which case, it would not make sense to say crime is going down based solely on arrest statistics. Arrests and crime are not the same thing. What these statistics could really be indicating, since arrests are down but crime is up, is that accountability for crime is down.
Why would the police arrest a suspect if they already know the suspect won't be prosecuted That's what's really happening here.
It’s not a matter of being “in on it”, it’s just the reality of a) how policing works and b) California’s decriminalized crime laws.
Arresting a person takes an officer off the streets for several hours, which is a waste of scarce resources if the department knows for a fact that there will be no prosecution and the arrested person will be back on the street with no consequences.
Also, any theft under $950 is a mere misdemeanor - it’s a ticketable offense, with no arrest allowed.
Arresting a person takes an officer off the streets for several hours, which is a waste of scarce resources if the department knows for a fact that there will be no prosecution and the arrested person will be back on the street with no consequences.
Also, any theft under $950 is a mere misdemeanor - it’s a ticketable offense, with no arrest allowed.
Police don't do anything about it in other states. It's not due to this law. Police steal more than the people they're supposed to catch.
When police serve a search warrant for career criminals (e.g. drug dealing, car theft, basically any criminal activity that you can make a decent regular income on) it's SOP to cross-reference serial numbers on expensive stuff that's lying around (power tools, electronics, etc) with the list of serial numbers in their DB of police reports so they can tack on a charge if they get a match. It is absolutely a liability to have a bunch of stolen stuff lying around.
Just because crime isn’t increasing doesn’t mean it’s not a problem. We have no benchmark to compare 2019, 2020 and 2021 against and it may be dipping but 2020 likely saw a spike in crime so going down from there isn’t saying much.
It literally isn't a problem then. Otherwise you're just trying to spin a narrative that doesn't line up with facts.
Again, something can be a problem without growing into a bigger problem.
First off, no one said crime is not a problem, they're saying it's not a new problem ramping up. So let's fix that bit of putting words in someone's mouth and see why doesn't the logic flow the other way?
Just because crime is increasing doesn’t mean it’s a new problem. We have no benchmark to compare 2019, 2020 and 2021 against and it may be dipping but 2020 likely saw a spike in crime so going down from there isn’t saying much.
Seems pretty reasonable right?
Just because crime is increasing doesn’t mean it’s a new problem. We have no benchmark to compare 2019, 2020 and 2021 against and it may be dipping but 2020 likely saw a spike in crime so going down from there isn’t saying much.
Seems pretty reasonable right?
The backwards logic doesn’t work because my assumption is that all crime is a problem.
Aren't quants supposed to be good at reading?
> *no one said crime is not a problem*, they're saying it's not *a new problem ramping up*
> *no one said crime is not a problem*, they're saying it's not *a new problem ramping up*
There are charts over time available here
https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/A-violent-year-Bay...
https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/A-violent-year-Bay...
The entire point is 2020 was a known anomaly (because of the tiny globe changing pandemic)
Hence why their quote is about downward trends in 2021
> The San Francisco Police Department is actually seeing a dip in crime in 2021, part of a larger overall downward trend. Property crimes are down nearly 8 percent so far in 2021, and larceny theft — the category of crime that includes shoplifting — is down 14.4 percent.
It's too early to start screaming doom and gloom about crime taking over
Hence why their quote is about downward trends in 2021
> The San Francisco Police Department is actually seeing a dip in crime in 2021, part of a larger overall downward trend. Property crimes are down nearly 8 percent so far in 2021, and larceny theft — the category of crime that includes shoplifting — is down 14.4 percent.
It's too early to start screaming doom and gloom about crime taking over
Ah, I was just sharing the data but yeah -- we're trending towards returning to the hellscape that was 2016. We're all gonna die! (Despite the fact that, well, we all lived through 2016...)
didn't san francisco experience covid and lockdowns?
as a politician said recently: > we know we locked down not only the general population, but also criminals.
as a politician said recently: > we know we locked down not only the general population, but also criminals.
I was the victim of a property crime in SF and I never reported it. Why would I? No follow up by police. Same with neighbors.
Your stats are reported crime. Not actual crime.
Your stats are reported crime. Not actual crime.
You don't have any insurance? I never directly bought any insurance but two of my credit cards and my life insurance policy from work cover some amount of money in some cases if I get stuff stolen. They just need a police report, and that's why a lot of property crime does get reported. Apple Care also has a theft and loss protection that needs a police report. If your car window gets smashed you can get money back from insurance, but they will ask for a police report...
This is why I always doubt people that claim that property crime isn't getting reported. Of course some of it will not get reported, but on the very very very unlikely event that you are a victim of property crime in SF if you like, have a credit card or Apple Care or car insurance, you probably can get free money by filing a police report.
This is why I always doubt people that claim that property crime isn't getting reported. Of course some of it will not get reported, but on the very very very unlikely event that you are a victim of property crime in SF if you like, have a credit card or Apple Care or car insurance, you probably can get free money by filing a police report.
Did that change recently? Prosecution tactics may have changed, to even get to the that point the police have to be willing to investigate.
I don't think I've ever seen a big city PD investigate "petty" property crime unless there was something unique about the case, like a gun being involved.
So the stats being compared to have the same limitation
I don't think I've ever seen a big city PD investigate "petty" property crime unless there was something unique about the case, like a gun being involved.
So the stats being compared to have the same limitation
Police wont investigate armed robbery with a firearm if there is no body. They may if you hand it to them on a platter (license plate number from getaway vehicle for example) or if there is a string of incidents in a very specific area and time of day. But string of incidents just results in maybe more cops around in that time and place and not a real investigation. And most people who do the armed robbery racket will tell victims to look down and keep their eyes down and respond not pleasantly if you do too much to try and identify them very well.
Police dont investigate property crimes unless its someone important enough or has sway gets involved or the media gets involved.
Murders they do investigate, because they have incentives to get a clearance rate down. This does mean they dont actually care if you committed the crime, just that it gets "cleared". God help you if you dont have a alibi and your husband/wife end up dead. Expect ALOT of police attention.
Rapes will get classified as he said / she said not rapes because that way their clearance/conviction rates stay good.
I also find it somewhat odd that people trust what police have to say about crime rates, where they have incentives to make themselves look good, but dont trust police about well anything else these days.
Police dont investigate property crimes unless its someone important enough or has sway gets involved or the media gets involved.
Murders they do investigate, because they have incentives to get a clearance rate down. This does mean they dont actually care if you committed the crime, just that it gets "cleared". God help you if you dont have a alibi and your husband/wife end up dead. Expect ALOT of police attention.
Rapes will get classified as he said / she said not rapes because that way their clearance/conviction rates stay good.
I also find it somewhat odd that people trust what police have to say about crime rates, where they have incentives to make themselves look good, but dont trust police about well anything else these days.
What makes you think they have incentive to make themselves look good?
The entire point of the thread is that they have incentive to fan the flames of fear to increase the budgeting.
After all, the police aren't nearly as exposed to the effects of angry constituents as elected politicians are.
So police love to pitch any sort of crime increase as a failing of budgeting or something
The entire point of the thread is that they have incentive to fan the flames of fear to increase the budgeting.
After all, the police aren't nearly as exposed to the effects of angry constituents as elected politicians are.
So police love to pitch any sort of crime increase as a failing of budgeting or something
I used to work in law enforcement. Its a tails you lose, heads I win situation for the police.
Generally speaking police leadership likes to justify their jobs with "crime numbers are going down" its an easy "objective" way to show they are effective and its the primary metric they try to game. Then its ask for more budget because we can make numbers go even more down with more resources.
When crime numbers go up its "we need more resources!". Which is the traditional refrain of well every government agency that is not succeeding in their mission. And succeeding in their mission. Every agency is gonna ask for more money. Always and forever.
Line officers dont care as much about overall metrics but have different incentives put on them. Their immediate leadership want numbers to look good too.
No matter what way the number goes up or down there is a ready narrative that involves we need more budget. If number goes down, its my leadership caused this. If numbers go up then its external things fault.
Typically speaking police chiefs like numbers to go down because it reflects well on them. Detectives like persuing cases that result in convictions because it makes them look good and promotable. Zone leadership likes numbers to go down because it makes them look good and promotable. If you are the Captain of the highest crime rate precinct you are less likely to get promoted than the one with a better rate. This trickles all the way down.
Generally speaking police leadership likes to justify their jobs with "crime numbers are going down" its an easy "objective" way to show they are effective and its the primary metric they try to game. Then its ask for more budget because we can make numbers go even more down with more resources.
When crime numbers go up its "we need more resources!". Which is the traditional refrain of well every government agency that is not succeeding in their mission. And succeeding in their mission. Every agency is gonna ask for more money. Always and forever.
Line officers dont care as much about overall metrics but have different incentives put on them. Their immediate leadership want numbers to look good too.
No matter what way the number goes up or down there is a ready narrative that involves we need more budget. If number goes down, its my leadership caused this. If numbers go up then its external things fault.
Typically speaking police chiefs like numbers to go down because it reflects well on them. Detectives like persuing cases that result in convictions because it makes them look good and promotable. Zone leadership likes numbers to go down because it makes them look good and promotable. If you are the Captain of the highest crime rate precinct you are less likely to get promoted than the one with a better rate. This trickles all the way down.
> Generally speaking police leadership likes to justify their jobs with "crime numbers are going down"
If that's what happening, sure, they use that to support “we're doing good and therefore should be given more resources to do more good.”
If crime stats are flat or going down, they use that to argue “we are stretched to thin to effectively reduce crime, and therefore need more resources.”
The input is irrelevant, the output is constant.
If that's what happening, sure, they use that to support “we're doing good and therefore should be given more resources to do more good.”
If crime stats are flat or going down, they use that to argue “we are stretched to thin to effectively reduce crime, and therefore need more resources.”
The input is irrelevant, the output is constant.
The output to you the citizen is the same yes.
The internal process inside the engine cares though. Police Chief's certainly care about the crime rate going down because they answer to whoever put them in their position depending on the city and that person or group cares about the number going down.
The police captain cares because they want to be picked as the police chief one day and a "crime went down in my precinct" narrative helps that.
The Sheriff cares because in the US that is an elected position, and "crime rate keeps going up with this Sheriff" is easy ammo for them to lose their position in an election.
The police engine will produce the same output either way. (which is a great sign of necessary reform) But the people driving the engine would prefer it to be because of the rate going down that they ask for more money. And the people who put them in that position would prefer thats the reason they are asking for more money as well.
Interestingly enough public education works the same way. Schools failing? Not enough resources! School succeeding? We need more to do more or to keep the status quo of doing well! Pretty much every government body has this feedback mechanism. Every organization for that matters. No large scale org ever says "we have enough resources right now thanks".
The internal process inside the engine cares though. Police Chief's certainly care about the crime rate going down because they answer to whoever put them in their position depending on the city and that person or group cares about the number going down.
The police captain cares because they want to be picked as the police chief one day and a "crime went down in my precinct" narrative helps that.
The Sheriff cares because in the US that is an elected position, and "crime rate keeps going up with this Sheriff" is easy ammo for them to lose their position in an election.
The police engine will produce the same output either way. (which is a great sign of necessary reform) But the people driving the engine would prefer it to be because of the rate going down that they ask for more money. And the people who put them in that position would prefer thats the reason they are asking for more money as well.
Interestingly enough public education works the same way. Schools failing? Not enough resources! School succeeding? We need more to do more or to keep the status quo of doing well! Pretty much every government body has this feedback mechanism. Every organization for that matters. No large scale org ever says "we have enough resources right now thanks".
This is normal most places (in the US, at least) AFAIK. Cops don't really investigate property crime unless it's very serious (I know for a fact that several tens of thousands in stolen goods via a break-in spree at multiple businesses isn't enough for them to put forth any effort, in my very-much-not-SF city) or someone with connections was the victim. They're like "OK here's your report for insurance, bye. No, stop trying to show me a list of places the culprit and their car's plates were assuredly caught on camera, I don't give a shit. Bye." Anyone who's been through this once already only bothers to report anything if an insurance claim will be made, since they know the cops won't do anything even if there's a very high likelihood they could track down the culprit. Unless they catch them in the act, nothing's gonna happen.
Why would anyone report something if they know nothing will be done about it? Even when the DA prosecutes it's still unlikely reporting it will do much good.
My car has been broken into twice in the last few months in front of my house. The last thing I want to do is wait for an officer to come by 4 hours later to tell me there isn't anything he can do.
My car has been broken into twice in the last few months in front of my house. The last thing I want to do is wait for an officer to come by 4 hours later to tell me there isn't anything he can do.
> Security guards won't intervene
Weird. Makes me wonder why the guards exist.
Weird. Makes me wonder why the guards exist.
Previous work experience (at a casino in USA). Security existed for customer service, general rule enforcement where it could be done verbally, and to observe and document activities to be used later - like in court or by police. Professional eye witness.
Of course there are times hands-on action was taken but the vast majority was no touch communication and de-escalation followed by a whole lot of documentation coordinated with video surveillance.
Of course there are times hands-on action was taken but the vast majority was no touch communication and de-escalation followed by a whole lot of documentation coordinated with video surveillance.
+1
If the military, with their training, has trouble calibrating force when interacting with civilians.
And if police, with their less but still substantial training, have trouble.
... Then we probably don't want security guards, with even less training, commonly using force.
That some of them are ex-military or ex-police is immaterial, because there sure as hell isn't time made in their schedule to keep up to date.
If the military, with their training, has trouble calibrating force when interacting with civilians.
And if police, with their less but still substantial training, have trouble.
... Then we probably don't want security guards, with even less training, commonly using force.
That some of them are ex-military or ex-police is immaterial, because there sure as hell isn't time made in their schedule to keep up to date.
The lack of calibration is ultimately due to a lack of consequences. If security guards are bound by the law, in the way that police officers are currently not, then I'd rather have security guards using force than the police.
I think private security is mostly for deterrence / theatre.
There's definitely a large theater aspect but they also act as professional witnesses so to speak. They're trained to look for and record a suspect's characteristics that a lay person might not notice. A lay person might get you a description like "the big dude with long hair who got into a silver car" whereas a security guard will (should) get you a fairly precise height and weight as well as a plate number and the fact that the dude had a subtle tatoo on his wrist.
That's really reasonable. Thanks for the perspective!
In a world of small margins, it's just another small advantage that goes to Amazon.
That all assumes that UPS drivers are honest and that Amazon 'fulfillment' employees get their daily cavity search of course.
That all assumes that UPS drivers are honest and that Amazon 'fulfillment' employees get their daily cavity search of course.
And that the delivery vans don't get raided while making deliveries.
This sounds more like a tough-on-crime type fever dream than a representative reality. How much does this actually happen? Is it more of a harm to society than the harsh sentences people were getting for minor thefts? Civilization is a compromise between conflicting interests.
Nieman Marcus and Home Depot are still making plenty of profit despite this law changing 7 years ago. Is putting someone in prison for 8 years and giving them a permanent black mark that prevents them from voting and harms employment prospects over $200 really worth improving Home Depot's bottom line? That's the real question here.
Nieman Marcus and Home Depot are still making plenty of profit despite this law changing 7 years ago. Is putting someone in prison for 8 years and giving them a permanent black mark that prevents them from voting and harms employment prospects over $200 really worth improving Home Depot's bottom line? That's the real question here.
Yeah, I just returned hundreds of dollars of power tools to Lowes because of them locking stuff up. I buy into an ecosystem based on how easy I can get items.
Lowes has most of their power tools in cages. But, they don't hire people to actually man the area. Last time I needed an impact, I had to search to find someone. That person told me they can't open it, but would find someone. Five minutes later I left empty-handed, and returned the rest of the tools and batteries I'd bought recently that week.
Point being: Their 'security' is driving away paying customers.
Lowes has most of their power tools in cages. But, they don't hire people to actually man the area. Last time I needed an impact, I had to search to find someone. That person told me they can't open it, but would find someone. Five minutes later I left empty-handed, and returned the rest of the tools and batteries I'd bought recently that week.
Point being: Their 'security' is driving away paying customers.
The stores in "bad parts" of town have the cages, and sometimes service to match.
The "good parts" of town - no cages in sight and you can grab what you need.
It's sad.
The "good parts" of town - no cages in sight and you can grab what you need.
It's sad.
Very true. Oddly where I live now, the good and bad parts of town are very interspersed. You can have million dollar subdivisions a mile from a trailer park.
The added bonus is that all stores treat everyone as a criminal, apparently :).
The added bonus is that all stores treat everyone as a criminal, apparently :).
I wonder if it was 700k retail or wholesale? Regardless, it was a big enough problem across the chain to justify adding complexity and cost to the product.
Retailers are allergic to price increases and manufacturers tend to shy away from anything that increases the cost without being a marketable benefit or cost savings, so no doubt Home Depot recognizing the size of the problem and initiating a solution made it happen.
Retailers are allergic to price increases and manufacturers tend to shy away from anything that increases the cost without being a marketable benefit or cost savings, so no doubt Home Depot recognizing the size of the problem and initiating a solution made it happen.
The power tool market is likely more responsive than your average supplier.
They sell a huge volume through a limited number of retailers (Home Depot & Lowes), and there are a limited number of manufacturers [0].
So if retail says there's a problem, it becomes a problem for them.
The other side of this is professional customers, who will probably use the same technology. A tool that doesn't work if it's stolen off a job site is a big value add to professional contractors.
[0] https://pressurewashr.com/tool-industry-behemoths/
They sell a huge volume through a limited number of retailers (Home Depot & Lowes), and there are a limited number of manufacturers [0].
So if retail says there's a problem, it becomes a problem for them.
The other side of this is professional customers, who will probably use the same technology. A tool that doesn't work if it's stolen off a job site is a big value add to professional contractors.
[0] https://pressurewashr.com/tool-industry-behemoths/
Crimes (theft, drug seizures, whatever) usually reported in largest possible numbers. So likely retail
Exactly. News reports never respect the very important difference between a thousand grams and a kilo.
I think the downvotes are unjust. For those missing the point: When large quantities of drugs are seized, often times the 'street value' of the drug is reported. But large quantities can only be found some steps removed from the end customer in the supply chain. Given the risks in distribution, the difference in retail and wholesale price can be significant.
Agreed the downvotes are not justified. This is this clearly what parent meant and what I alluded to in preceding comment
Thank you, that is exactly what I meant.
I look at this as yet another consequence of increasing economic inequality.
When you have more and more people keenly aware of the unfair distance between their economic station and that of others, they're going to realize the system isn't working. And once that realization kicks in, there is little moral incentive to follow the rules. If you can get away with stealing from a giant corporation, why not? They are arguably stealing even more from you in terms of manipulating the larger economic systems of the country.
When you have more and more people keenly aware of the unfair distance between their economic station and that of others, they're going to realize the system isn't working. And once that realization kicks in, there is little moral incentive to follow the rules. If you can get away with stealing from a giant corporation, why not? They are arguably stealing even more from you in terms of manipulating the larger economic systems of the country.
You never knew any middle class or upper middle class kids who shoplifted?
I definitely did, but I'm fairly certain that is not driving large-scale theft of tools from Home Depot.
This reduces poverty to greed, which is insulting to those in need, rather than helpful or hopeful that there are solutions other than blind levelling.
I wonder why they don't just warehouse the stock, leave demo models on the floor and only get out the real one once you've paid for it.
A couple of staff to power this has got to be cheaper than $700kpa in high value theft.
But I also would have thought it'd be comically easy to surveil the power tool area and see who comes in lots but never seems to buy a power tool.
A couple of staff to power this has got to be cheaper than $700kpa in high value theft.
But I also would have thought it'd be comically easy to surveil the power tool area and see who comes in lots but never seems to buy a power tool.
I wonder at what point the insurance cost starts to outweigh just paying for more staff to provide a higher-touch experience for certain categories.
But then, I get the impression that supermarkets are saving on staff by using self-checkout, at the risk of increased casual theft.
Would be nice to see more jobs rather than more insurance pay-outs though.
But then, I get the impression that supermarkets are saving on staff by using self-checkout, at the risk of increased casual theft.
Would be nice to see more jobs rather than more insurance pay-outs though.
The entire store is the warehouse. There’s nowhere for them to put it that’s easily accessible to the staff but not to customers, except maybe in a locked cage on the floor.
Assuming an average price of $330, that would be 2000 devices. Or ~6 items a day, every single day of the year. that's not from shop lifters, that's from the employees out the back door.
I wonder if this has increased from/due to self checkout?
My grocery store has an app that lets me scan as I go through the store, then just pay in about 10 seconds at the self-checkout. I'd love to know what that has done to shrink numbers.
How many cameras are there in the store?
I don't usually pay much attention to self-checkout (call me a luddite, but I find regular checkout to go faster and with less hassle), but the other day when standing in a queue, I looked at the ceiling and saw a ton of cameras - one camera per self-checkout station, + some extra in the general area. Additionally, each checkout station used a big tablet as its main display, and each of those tablets had the usual built-in selfie camera - I'd be surprised if these cameras didn't take photos of customers using the stations.
I don't usually pay much attention to self-checkout (call me a luddite, but I find regular checkout to go faster and with less hassle), but the other day when standing in a queue, I looked at the ceiling and saw a ton of cameras - one camera per self-checkout station, + some extra in the general area. Additionally, each checkout station used a big tablet as its main display, and each of those tablets had the usual built-in selfie camera - I'd be surprised if these cameras didn't take photos of customers using the stations.
I was using the self checkout the other day and scanned some item and put it in my bag. A store employee came over and told me it didn't scan. Hmmm? I looked at the screen and yes, the item was listed on there. She checked some handheld she was using and it wasn't showing up on _her_ list. So she could somehow see what I was scanning and apparently was watching to make sure I wasn't stealing anything? It was kindof odd.
> How many cameras are there in the store?
Quite a few, but I don't know that they're gonna help if I scan the small steak but put the giant one in my bag. Again, the scanning isn't happening at the self-checkout. They just get used for payment.
I can also void out an expensive item mid-shop. Unless someone's getting a real-time ping with my exact current location in the store in the security office when I do that, no one's gonna be checking.
Quite a few, but I don't know that they're gonna help if I scan the small steak but put the giant one in my bag. Again, the scanning isn't happening at the self-checkout. They just get used for payment.
I can also void out an expensive item mid-shop. Unless someone's getting a real-time ping with my exact current location in the store in the security office when I do that, no one's gonna be checking.
Most of the cameras in the store are for (a) customer service or (b) organized crime tracking.
For (a), if a customer comes in with an odd return scenario / complaint, a fair number boil down to "what actually happened when they were originally here?" Camera provides documentation of that, and asset protection can review, and the make things right. E.g. the "bought thing, but didn't make it into my bag" scenario.
For (b), it's post-hoc identification & ad-hoc warning. Organized theft rings typically hit multiple stores in an area. Retail has gotten very good at sharing snapshots of individuals very quickly in those scenarios. And it's worth it, because a single organized theft incident will be a couple orders of magnitude larger than all your common theft for a month. E.g. $10,000 worth of product vs $100.
For (a), if a customer comes in with an odd return scenario / complaint, a fair number boil down to "what actually happened when they were originally here?" Camera provides documentation of that, and asset protection can review, and the make things right. E.g. the "bought thing, but didn't make it into my bag" scenario.
For (b), it's post-hoc identification & ad-hoc warning. Organized theft rings typically hit multiple stores in an area. Retail has gotten very good at sharing snapshots of individuals very quickly in those scenarios. And it's worth it, because a single organized theft incident will be a couple orders of magnitude larger than all your common theft for a month. E.g. $10,000 worth of product vs $100.
Having a trained cashier quickly scan your items for you does indeed beat fumbling with the scanning process while the GLaDOS built into the register judges you for not doing it properly.
Yes. And then you look at it funny and it exclaims, "unrecognized item in the bagging area", and asks you to assume the party escort submission position, while it fetches the party associate clerk.
That's why the app is nice; it's on my phone, I do it as I go along, and there's no scale involved. Faster than both self-checkout and cashier, in my experience, especially on a busy day.
Bagging as you go. Yay Future!!
I've been thinking about this ever since my closest supermarket got the same app system.
Anti-theft seems to be done by random audits of scanning 3-4 items. I've had this 3 times out of the 20 or so times I've used it.
In that regard, it seems more risky to try any funny business with it. With the traditional self scans, cameras aside, it's quite easy to fool them, and they are reliable and predictable machines. I'm sure it would be easy to slip something at the bottom of your bag, but if you get caught on an audit, I'm sure it sets a flag to audit you more often.
The scan-at-end checkouts can be used without identity, where as the scan-as-you go, at least for my supermarket, you have to log into an account linked to your identity before it's used. This may deter a lot of casual theft.
In that regard, it seems more risky to try any funny business with it. With the traditional self scans, cameras aside, it's quite easy to fool them, and they are reliable and predictable machines. I'm sure it would be easy to slip something at the bottom of your bag, but if you get caught on an audit, I'm sure it sets a flag to audit you more often.
The scan-at-end checkouts can be used without identity, where as the scan-as-you go, at least for my supermarket, you have to log into an account linked to your identity before it's used. This may deter a lot of casual theft.
My local Costco has finally added self-checkout registers. I noticed that the receipt is a different color than the ones you would normally get if you went to a cashier. I assume the exit people who check your receipt look more closely when it's a self-checkout one.
Also, the workers who load your cart at Costco seem to be trained to pack it for easier/faster scanability by the exit-check people. Plus IIRC the receipts split anything they leave on the bottom rack of the cart into a separate section. Neither of those things happen with self-checkout, I suppose (I've not used the self-checkout yet, because the regular checkout is so fast at Costco and they're well-staffed enough that I haven't wanted to)
I'd expect pretty much any move to make the customers do work that paid employees used to, increases customer theft (which, as noted elsewhere in this thread, is far from the only threat—employees, including managers and security, steal lots).
I mean, consider a classic old-school store (talking pre-supermarkets and pre-big-box stores) where a clerk would fetch what you wanted. Much harder to steal there. Save money by not paying enough clerks to handle that and making customers pick out their own stuff, and now customers can/do steal more.
Same with stuff like self-checkout, I'd expect. Might also increase the rate of honest mistakes resulting in accidental theft, though I've seen so damn many of those errors from paid clerks that I wouldn't bet on it.
I mean, consider a classic old-school store (talking pre-supermarkets and pre-big-box stores) where a clerk would fetch what you wanted. Much harder to steal there. Save money by not paying enough clerks to handle that and making customers pick out their own stuff, and now customers can/do steal more.
Same with stuff like self-checkout, I'd expect. Might also increase the rate of honest mistakes resulting in accidental theft, though I've seen so damn many of those errors from paid clerks that I wouldn't bet on it.
It's a MAJOR issue. Most hardware stores now lock them, have cameras, and every time you walk by it makes some obnoxious noise.
I hate that noise. Especially since they place them on aisles with expensive items, which are the same aisles I end up spending the most time comparing the different tools. Make me feel like I can't move for fear of being beeped at.
Makes sense that they do it if shop lifting is as big of a problem as this article suggests.
Makes sense that they do it if shop lifting is as big of a problem as this article suggests.
I usually flip off those beeping cameras. The store has created an aggressive environment and I'd rather actively recognize that, instead of than trying to pretend otherwise. I understand that theft is a problem, but they shouldn't be taking it out on honest customers.
I bet I'm being downvoted by the kind of people who wait in line to exit a store.
I bet I'm being downvoted by the kind of people who wait in line to exit a store.
I couldn't help while reading this thinking 'Security is in charge of Customer Experience'. Obviously theft is a serious problem for the likes of retail -- and shoplifting is something that isn't 100% preventable. You can reduce it, but you can't stop it. And every step you take to reduce it risks alienating customers.
For example, we've all encountered those silly alarm systems at the doors. As I've never been a shoplifter, I've never had those go off on me except in error. When I worked at CompUSA for 5 years, we had a greeter at the door who told me "they've never once, in 15 years, caught a shoplifter". They went off several times a day, so the only people being stopped at the door were people who had purchased their goods being treated like a shoplifter.
I'm assuming this system will work a lot better than the old, but if I got my tool home and it simply didn't work, I'd be extremely frustrated -- especially if I could have avoided both drives to the retail store and had the product delivered tomorrow, instead.
The alternative is to turn the whole thing upside down. Change the way shopping is done so that shoplifting doesn't work. I fill a cart, walk through the gate out the door and receive a total, passing my card/phone over a sensor to pay. Of course, this means it's on Home Depot to get it right and I'm sure there will be ways to defeat the system. If they fail to ring up an item because it's not detected in the cart, I'm not sure if they have legal recourse at that point, but it also serves to motivate them to make the system a lot more reliable than the current ones are. And you stop treating your customers like shoplifters :)
For example, we've all encountered those silly alarm systems at the doors. As I've never been a shoplifter, I've never had those go off on me except in error. When I worked at CompUSA for 5 years, we had a greeter at the door who told me "they've never once, in 15 years, caught a shoplifter". They went off several times a day, so the only people being stopped at the door were people who had purchased their goods being treated like a shoplifter.
I'm assuming this system will work a lot better than the old, but if I got my tool home and it simply didn't work, I'd be extremely frustrated -- especially if I could have avoided both drives to the retail store and had the product delivered tomorrow, instead.
The alternative is to turn the whole thing upside down. Change the way shopping is done so that shoplifting doesn't work. I fill a cart, walk through the gate out the door and receive a total, passing my card/phone over a sensor to pay. Of course, this means it's on Home Depot to get it right and I'm sure there will be ways to defeat the system. If they fail to ring up an item because it's not detected in the cart, I'm not sure if they have legal recourse at that point, but it also serves to motivate them to make the system a lot more reliable than the current ones are. And you stop treating your customers like shoplifters :)
If Home Depot could somehow extend this anti-theft protection to the original purchaser, that would be a huge positive to customer experience. Tool theft at job sites is a massive problem, especially because most workers are responsible for providing their own tools.
This. I was excited seeing the headline, but disappointed it only applied to purchasing from Home Depot.
The easiest way would be to implement the smart gun tech for tools. Keep the paired bracelet at the counter, then the user can wear it when using it. If the bracelet isn't in range, then the tool won't work.
I'm guessing people wouldn't be very happy with this user experience though. Cost for biometric implementation would likely be cost prohibitive.
I'm guessing people wouldn't be very happy with this user experience though. Cost for biometric implementation would likely be cost prohibitive.
I don't think a smart gun has ever been sold to consumers in the US. The technology simply isn't reliable enough to be useful. The one model that a company did try to market was so expensive and unreliable[1] that no store imported it. Also people were worried about the built-in kill switch.
1. https://www.americas1stfreedom.org/articles/2014/8/8/whats-s...
1. https://www.americas1stfreedom.org/articles/2014/8/8/whats-s...
why does it have to be biometric at all? Just make it 2FA. Make it so that the bracelet and the tool have to be within, say, 1m of each other and that seems like a viable solution (And obviously have the ability to disable this feature if the user wishes)
"(And obviously have the ability to disable this feature if the user wishes)"
True, that didn't really come to mind since they don't generally talk about allowing that for guns. The best thing is probably using one's phone as the token since the phone has bluetooth and this article mentions that the tools are unlocked with that.
The reason I brought up biometrics is that the unlocking 'token' is less likely to get lost than the bracelet, etc. But that does bring up another good point, that some of the common biometrics like fingerprints wouldn't work since many people wear work gloves.
Although, it would provide a good large-scale proof of concept for smart gun tech if it worked the same as the proposed smart gun tech.
True, that didn't really come to mind since they don't generally talk about allowing that for guns. The best thing is probably using one's phone as the token since the phone has bluetooth and this article mentions that the tools are unlocked with that.
The reason I brought up biometrics is that the unlocking 'token' is less likely to get lost than the bracelet, etc. But that does bring up another good point, that some of the common biometrics like fingerprints wouldn't work since many people wear work gloves.
Although, it would provide a good large-scale proof of concept for smart gun tech if it worked the same as the proposed smart gun tech.
"Lost my phone and now I can't use my power tools...."
— Future internet of shit post
— Future internet of shit post
Not if it's using an app that stores the info in some manufacturers database (just imagine the marketing goldmine of tracking users usage).
"The manufacturers website is down and now I can't use my power tools...."
— Future internet of shit post
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Power tool DRM would, inevitably, be used in an anti-consumer fashion.
Power tool DRM would, inevitably, be used in an anti-consumer fashion.
"Firmware Error: this Ryobi drill will automatically turn off and stay off until security patch 11.045. Please connect to a stable Internet connection and set up your Home Depot Builders(TM) account to use your drill."
Watch pre-DRM and 'jailbroken' power tools become highly sought after, lol.
Watch pre-DRM and 'jailbroken' power tools become highly sought after, lol.
Yup. Just watch what happens when the tools reach end-of-life. No more security patches and they will stop working, like all of those early smart TV apps that have been unsupported for years.
You could buy a third-party manufacturer's tools because they're cheaper, but when they can't keep the lights on and they shut off the authentication servers, well you're SOL
You could buy a third-party manufacturer's tools because they're cheaper, but when they can't keep the lights on and they shut off the authentication servers, well you're SOL
Sounds laughable, but I'm already on, I think, 5th such "Product as a Service" contraption, and refused a 6th one because of client's business model been extremely unethical, and borderline fraud:
A WiFi MP3 player with "unlimited music through life" and few paid premium tracks, which the client planned to suddenly switch into not so unlimited, and subscription only in the course of 2-3 years through the power of fine print, and legalese. Bait, and switch.
Stuff like DRMed consumables for water filters, coffee machine capsules, subscription only air fresheners, and DRMed packed fresh food! is already a reality.
And if you don't believe about microchipped, DRMed food, here it is:
https://ibb.co/b65kHfY
https://ibb.co/19L9fw3
https://ibb.co/bvD7NcJ
A WiFi MP3 player with "unlimited music through life" and few paid premium tracks, which the client planned to suddenly switch into not so unlimited, and subscription only in the course of 2-3 years through the power of fine print, and legalese. Bait, and switch.
Stuff like DRMed consumables for water filters, coffee machine capsules, subscription only air fresheners, and DRMed packed fresh food! is already a reality.
And if you don't believe about microchipped, DRMed food, here it is:
https://ibb.co/b65kHfY
https://ibb.co/19L9fw3
https://ibb.co/bvD7NcJ
I'm curious about the DRM food, but I can't tell what's happening in any of those photos. Can you provide a translation?
It's like the Juicero, but for food.
Each pack is made of a very, very sturdy piece of plastic, and an NFC chip, and a single use QR code which will invalidate itself after a single online lookup for an unlock key.
User puts this "food cartridge" into the machine, and scans the code. The machine will cut open the cartridge, and cook the stuff inside.
It will of course refuse to cook if your "food subscription" is expired, or if it thinks the NFC chip is fake. Or at least this is how they wanted it to be in their original design proposal.
Whatever engineering company who took them as a client probably managed to tone down their fantasies a bit.
Brave new world...
Each pack is made of a very, very sturdy piece of plastic, and an NFC chip, and a single use QR code which will invalidate itself after a single online lookup for an unlock key.
User puts this "food cartridge" into the machine, and scans the code. The machine will cut open the cartridge, and cook the stuff inside.
It will of course refuse to cook if your "food subscription" is expired, or if it thinks the NFC chip is fake. Or at least this is how they wanted it to be in their original design proposal.
Whatever engineering company who took them as a client probably managed to tone down their fantasies a bit.
Brave new world...
Why on earth is this getting downvotes? You answered my question perfectly.
PTaaS - Power Tools as a Service.
Tesla makes software performance unlocks, K-Cups have DRM on their pods, and your xbox or playstation hardware is subsidized by the license costs on the games you're gonna buy in the same way your printer is cheap because the ink cartridges are expensive.
Only a matter of time before you can buy a $20 cordless drill but the charger requires a $15/mo Battery Conditioning Cloud subscription.
Tesla makes software performance unlocks, K-Cups have DRM on their pods, and your xbox or playstation hardware is subsidized by the license costs on the games you're gonna buy in the same way your printer is cheap because the ink cartridges are expensive.
Only a matter of time before you can buy a $20 cordless drill but the charger requires a $15/mo Battery Conditioning Cloud subscription.
Looks like Right to Repair has a loophole :-)
The toolmakers have already done this: https://onekeysupport.milwaukeetool.com/en/knowledge/ios-too...
That's a neat system. Looks like it works by allowing any phone with the Milwaukee app to identify a nearby tracked tool regardless of who actually owns it. You'd really only be able to keep using a stolen tool as long as the lock-out time is still active and no one with the app comes in range. I wonder if they are able to integrate it with Apple Airtags to at least provide location data.
Future Headline "Construction halted across US as hackers prevent power tool usage"
Honest question - where do professional tradesmen buy their tools?
Mechanics (auto, airline) don't normally go to HD or Lowes - they buy from SnapOn, Cromwell, or Mac - all three send salespeople in large box trucks full of tools to work site. And all three offer credit and payment plans. And when tools break, those trucks come by with replacements.
Mechanics (auto, airline) don't normally go to HD or Lowes - they buy from SnapOn, Cromwell, or Mac - all three send salespeople in large box trucks full of tools to work site. And all three offer credit and payment plans. And when tools break, those trucks come by with replacements.
Tool truck these days are for suckers and everyone under 35-40 knows it (everyone over 40 knows it too but fewer of them will admit it). Back in the day the price differential was less and the quality differential was more and a lot of people are stuck int their ways. People will still pay for tool truck convenience when they need to though. Most people have a mix of everything from Harbor Freight to Craigslist/ebay/pawnshop to tool truck to Home Depot to Amazon. Nobody is really buying expensive tools on the regular because that's a lot of money. People will generally buy expensive power tools when they see a good sale or have a specific job to justify it.
The white collar internet loves to blindly fetishize "quality" tools but professionals are always trying to strike a balance because every buck spent on overhead is a buck you're not getting paid and having breadth of tools is often more important than quantity since having the right tool matters a lot more than having a nice tool and if you don't buy nice tools you can afford to have the right tool more often. For secondary "luxury" tools that just make a job faster (like a ratcheting box wrench) many people buy the cheap stuff whereas tools you only use when you really need them (like flare nut wrenches) tend to be higher quality.
The white collar internet loves to blindly fetishize "quality" tools but professionals are always trying to strike a balance because every buck spent on overhead is a buck you're not getting paid and having breadth of tools is often more important than quantity since having the right tool matters a lot more than having a nice tool and if you don't buy nice tools you can afford to have the right tool more often. For secondary "luxury" tools that just make a job faster (like a ratcheting box wrench) many people buy the cheap stuff whereas tools you only use when you really need them (like flare nut wrenches) tend to be higher quality.
I worked for years with Craftsman and Husky (and some Harbor Freight) hand tools. I later splurged for some secondhand SnapOn ratchets. They are unquestionably better and totally worth the difference in price to me. Similar story with Wera screwdrivers being noticeably better than Craftsman.
I still buy some Harbor Freight tools, especially if I only need it for a one-off job, but the higher-end tool names are often genuinely better, not just higher priced.
I still buy some Harbor Freight tools, especially if I only need it for a one-off job, but the higher-end tool names are often genuinely better, not just higher priced.
You never get more than you pay for but you can always get less.
Whether a fancy ratchet is worth it depends a lot on how much you use your impact wrench. People tend to buy high end versions of the tools they use the most. There's plenty of professional roofers who have a $400 nail guns that weigh nothing and a couple clunky old HF framing guns on the truck. An electrician probably has a pawn shop or harbor freight hammer drill. The plumber probably has a nice hammer drill.
Whether a fancy ratchet is worth it depends a lot on how much you use your impact wrench. People tend to buy high end versions of the tools they use the most. There's plenty of professional roofers who have a $400 nail guns that weigh nothing and a couple clunky old HF framing guns on the truck. An electrician probably has a pawn shop or harbor freight hammer drill. The plumber probably has a nice hammer drill.
Oh, expensive tools are very nice, certainly.
But if you're a young guy just getting started in a trade, and you can choose between a cheap socket set plus two dates with your girlfriend, or a premium socket set? 9/10 guys would choose the former.
But if you're a young guy just getting started in a trade, and you can choose between a cheap socket set plus two dates with your girlfriend, or a premium socket set? 9/10 guys would choose the former.
Go watch the Project Farm torque wrench test where the Harbor Freight was more accurate than Snapoff.
It's not totally inconceivable that there are Harbor Freight torque wrenches that are initially is on par with a CDI, Precision Instruments (both of whom Snap-On rebrand), or the Tech-Angle with regards to torque accuracy, but good luck ever getting a reputable metrology shop to touch a Harbor Freight torque wrench (or one that isn't American made, for that matter) when it inevitably comes time to do a re-calibration.
Not even like Knipex, Wera, or a similar German tool company?
If it's manufactured in a western country, it's probably fine, I don't think you see too many like that here in the U.S.
It's usually either American, Taiwanese or Chinese, and a reputable shop like Angle Repair, for example, absolutely will not touch a Chinese torque wrench, and might only ever touch a Taiwanese torque wrench if it's a warrantied item on one of their supported brands, and probably only with some arm twisting on the part of the vendor they're doing warranty work for.
It's usually either American, Taiwanese or Chinese, and a reputable shop like Angle Repair, for example, absolutely will not touch a Chinese torque wrench, and might only ever touch a Taiwanese torque wrench if it's a warrantied item on one of their supported brands, and probably only with some arm twisting on the part of the vendor they're doing warranty work for.
> The white collar internet loves to blindly fetishize "quality" tools
I don't know how much this is fetishizing versus simply having different priorities.
White collar tech people using tools are more likely to be doing so for hobby or recreation. They have spare money and their goal is a maximally enjoyable experience. With those priorities, it makes sense to buy better tools than you could justify economically.
I don't know how much this is fetishizing versus simply having different priorities.
White collar tech people using tools are more likely to be doing so for hobby or recreation. They have spare money and their goal is a maximally enjoyable experience. With those priorities, it makes sense to buy better tools than you could justify economically.
The white collar internet loves to blindly fetishize "quality" tools but professionals are always trying to strike a balance because every buck spent on overhead is a buck you're not getting paid
That certainly wasn't my intention. My last roommate was an auto mechanic, then later a SnapOn dealer. He and the techs at the shops he serviced had massive rolling carts that cost $20k+ filled with another $30k in tools.
Certainly there were some cheaper tools in those carts, but as far as I could tell, they were mostly SnapOn or Mac.
That certainly wasn't my intention. My last roommate was an auto mechanic, then later a SnapOn dealer. He and the techs at the shops he serviced had massive rolling carts that cost $20k+ filled with another $30k in tools.
Certainly there were some cheaper tools in those carts, but as far as I could tell, they were mostly SnapOn or Mac.
The building trades mostly go to the big box home centers just like the rest of us. In construction, most hand tools aren't high precision and are semi-disposable, so there's no reason to go above prosumer grade.
There are some specialty tools that are sufficiently rare or expensive they'll get at trade-specific supply houses. Plumbers in particular can do the job either with a $5 saw and a bottle of glue or a $500 PEX expansion tool, depending on material.
The exception is something like high-end finish carpentry or furniture-making, which is high-precision, and does reward having professional tools and taking care of them. They have brands like Festool, which are available at specialty retailers.
There are some specialty tools that are sufficiently rare or expensive they'll get at trade-specific supply houses. Plumbers in particular can do the job either with a $5 saw and a bottle of glue or a $500 PEX expansion tool, depending on material.
The exception is something like high-end finish carpentry or furniture-making, which is high-precision, and does reward having professional tools and taking care of them. They have brands like Festool, which are available at specialty retailers.
When I was gutting/rebuilding my kitchen years ago, I had an unexpected water leak. I’d driven a screw into a PEX line while installing cabinet bases (I missed installing one cover plate before I drywalled). I’d done most of the plumbing myself, but didn’t have the PEX expander tool you mention, just because they’re so expensive.
I called my plumber late in the day and he stopped by on the way home from another gig. He didn’t have the tool on him, so instead he spent about 15 minutes forcing the handle of a socket wrench into the PEX so he could manually cram in a connector. It was remarkable, like watching someone tear a phone book in half. PEX is tough as hell.
I called my plumber late in the day and he stopped by on the way home from another gig. He didn’t have the tool on him, so instead he spent about 15 minutes forcing the handle of a socket wrench into the PEX so he could manually cram in a connector. It was remarkable, like watching someone tear a phone book in half. PEX is tough as hell.
I can't speak for other trades, but I have enough experience doing carpentry (mostly on the side, but paid) to say that Home Depot/Lowes/Local equivalent building supply stores are where carpenters and general contractors buy their tools, or at least that we're buying the same models that are available at Home Depot regardless of source.
Interesting. In my limited experience with pneumatic tools, SnapOn is much higher quality than the brands available at big box stores. Probably not worth it for typical homeowners, but my old roommate ran a SnapOn truck.
My dad's company was hired to do work inside a facility that made sockets. At the end of the line where the sockets were being prepared for packaging, the sockets would get separated and sent down various lines where they were stamped with brand info like Craftsmen, SnapOn, Husky, etc. They were all the exact same socket. It's not like they ones that passed a 16 point QA went to SnapOn, the ones that only passed 12/16 points were stamped Craftsman, and the ones with lesser scores stamped Husky. They were all identical.
If the sockets were this way, I would also expect that to be the same across the things like wrenches as well. The great thing about SnapOn is that truck. They will show up without the need for you to go somewhere. Their warranty wasn't any different than Craftsman's life time warranty, except you had to find a Sears.
If the sockets were this way, I would also expect that to be the same across the things like wrenches as well. The great thing about SnapOn is that truck. They will show up without the need for you to go somewhere. Their warranty wasn't any different than Craftsman's life time warranty, except you had to find a Sears.
Anecdotally, I use my Harbor Freight (non-impact) sockets on my impact gun. I've never broken one. I've broken tons of Craftsman sockets with far less force.
I recently had the opportunity to take apart somebody else's MAC battery-operated impact wrench, and found it was exactly the same as the DeWalt one on my bench. It's just molded in red plastic instead of yellow. The advertised torque rating is slightly higher than the DeWalt, so maybe there's a subtle component difference in the (epoxy-potted) motor control module. I hope the guy didn't pay too much extra for it though.
I have never once in my life seen SnapOn tools on a job sight.
Kind of beside the point, but you don't really even see pneumatics in construction much anymore. The _only_ pneumatic tool on my current project is my framing nailer. Every single other power tool is electric (mostly battery). Some companies are even making battery powered framing nailers now, and my corded worm drive saw finally broke after 15 years so I think I'll be upgrading to a battery powered saw in the near future. In a few years, I expect I'll be able to frame a house with entirely battery powered tools.
Kind of beside the point, but you don't really even see pneumatics in construction much anymore. The _only_ pneumatic tool on my current project is my framing nailer. Every single other power tool is electric (mostly battery). Some companies are even making battery powered framing nailers now, and my corded worm drive saw finally broke after 15 years so I think I'll be upgrading to a battery powered saw in the near future. In a few years, I expect I'll be able to frame a house with entirely battery powered tools.
SnapOn is famously desirable and expensive. I think part of this is that there are very few truly "premium" construction tools because, well, they are used in construction. Your drills and saws and the like are expected to get beat up and may need replacing. You may need more tools if you get more workers one day and fewer tools the next. Obviously there is still a range in quality and I'm sure we've all noticed the difference between a good name brand tool and a more budget option, but I think the ceiling is intentionally kinda low.
Small construction tools (drills, portable table saws, angle grinders) is largely done at big box stores, however smaller stores sell a fair amount, plus specialty product, but the bread and butter small tools are big box stores. Quality is the same, and prices are generally lower.
Shop equipment used to be done by trade show, not sure how it works these days.
Shop equipment used to be done by trade show, not sure how it works these days.
When tools break and they need them today (because the job needs to be finished today because there isnt time on the schedule next week to go back to this job site, also most customers get upset if you leave their home in a state of disrepair....), they DO go to HD or Lowes.
All the contractors I've had at my house usually have Dewalt electric tools. I think it's a convenience factor, they are already going to Home Depot during their lunch hour anyway to buy whatever small thing they need to finish the job.
My brother and father are high end renovation carpenter's, as far as I'm aware they typically get tools at Home Depot or similar places.
Fastenal is one of the places you'll probably see tradesmen buying tools and hardware. They certainly sell stuff that's several notches above what you can get at a big box store (both tools and hardware), and it's geared to be more friendly to those that know what they're doing.
Depends on the tool and the usecase - our contractors always had proper pro-level drills and powertools, but their handtools (especially more consumable ones that get lost during day to days when they're mobile, like screwdrivers and stuff) looked to be from DIY stores.
Well, the guys that built my shed/workshop/mancave had the cheapest big box store power tools and a hammer that looked (and likely was) older than me. I've never seen anyone brandish one of those 36 or 40V batteries either.
There's a whole parallel universe of suppliers out there. Some stuff comes from muggle stores like Home Depot or Lowes because they're ubiquitous or the tools are sufficiently interchangeable or some wizard brand gets stocked there anyway (Klein, for instance).
Good stuff largely comes from wizard stores. They're mostly locally owned or small, regional chains with a few national chains most muggles haven't heard of. Electrical stuff comes from Needco, Rexel, and Graybar where I live. I bought some Klein screwdrivers at a Rexel, because Klein (and maybe Wera) are the last ones making decent screwdrivers generally and cabinet-tip screwdrivers specifically.
They were $9-$10 a piece instead of that much for a set, but they're made right, and they're readily available if you know where to look.
My handheld power tools mostly come from lumber yards or local hardware stores. And I happily pay more for Makita over DeWalt, Milwaukee, Rigid, etc from the box stores. Not looking to start a flame war over who makes better tools, but the Makita stuff is consistently excellent and priced fairly for the quality.
I've probably used a wider variety of routers than any other type of tool, and it's true that you get what you pay for, especially for plunge routers. The plunge action is just smoother and more precise as you go up in price. Bosch also makes a pretty good one, for what it's worth.
Though I build furniture, not houses, I end up shopping at a lot of the same places as carpenters. You consistently see Festool for handheld power tools (and I do own a Domino), Stabila for levels, Freud, Whiteside and/or Amanda for router bits, Freud or Forrest for saw blades, and Tajima for a wide variety of layout and hand tools. Tajima makes an outstanding chalk line and the nicest caulk gun I've ever laid my eyes on.
You might see Freud router bits at a box store, but never the selection that a wizard store stocks. You'll pay more, but the sales people know their stuff, and you can get it today, not tomorrow. That's worth a couple bucks if time is money. Incidentally, Freud also makes the Diablo saw blades that you find at box stores, and they're excellent value for the money.
Tools truly specific to furniture making are usually a specialist supplier. You can buy an approximation if a combination square or marking gauge at a box store, but it'll be less irritating to just take your money and light it on fire. Woodcraft and Rockler both have decent stuff if you're near a brick and mortar location. If you aren't, they sell online as does Highland Hardware, and a bunch of other vendors.
How do you know if you're in a wizard store or a muggle store? Wizard stores usually keep hours that reflect the fact that most of their customers are there during their workday, not on their time off. If a store closes by 5:30 and aren't open on the weekend, guaranteed they're a wizard store.
Good stuff largely comes from wizard stores. They're mostly locally owned or small, regional chains with a few national chains most muggles haven't heard of. Electrical stuff comes from Needco, Rexel, and Graybar where I live. I bought some Klein screwdrivers at a Rexel, because Klein (and maybe Wera) are the last ones making decent screwdrivers generally and cabinet-tip screwdrivers specifically.
They were $9-$10 a piece instead of that much for a set, but they're made right, and they're readily available if you know where to look.
My handheld power tools mostly come from lumber yards or local hardware stores. And I happily pay more for Makita over DeWalt, Milwaukee, Rigid, etc from the box stores. Not looking to start a flame war over who makes better tools, but the Makita stuff is consistently excellent and priced fairly for the quality.
I've probably used a wider variety of routers than any other type of tool, and it's true that you get what you pay for, especially for plunge routers. The plunge action is just smoother and more precise as you go up in price. Bosch also makes a pretty good one, for what it's worth.
Though I build furniture, not houses, I end up shopping at a lot of the same places as carpenters. You consistently see Festool for handheld power tools (and I do own a Domino), Stabila for levels, Freud, Whiteside and/or Amanda for router bits, Freud or Forrest for saw blades, and Tajima for a wide variety of layout and hand tools. Tajima makes an outstanding chalk line and the nicest caulk gun I've ever laid my eyes on.
You might see Freud router bits at a box store, but never the selection that a wizard store stocks. You'll pay more, but the sales people know their stuff, and you can get it today, not tomorrow. That's worth a couple bucks if time is money. Incidentally, Freud also makes the Diablo saw blades that you find at box stores, and they're excellent value for the money.
Tools truly specific to furniture making are usually a specialist supplier. You can buy an approximation if a combination square or marking gauge at a box store, but it'll be less irritating to just take your money and light it on fire. Woodcraft and Rockler both have decent stuff if you're near a brick and mortar location. If you aren't, they sell online as does Highland Hardware, and a bunch of other vendors.
How do you know if you're in a wizard store or a muggle store? Wizard stores usually keep hours that reflect the fact that most of their customers are there during their workday, not on their time off. If a store closes by 5:30 and aren't open on the weekend, guaranteed they're a wizard store.
Reading the headline, that's actually what I thought it was going to be.
i wrench in a shop all day long, and let me tell you what works. Pink tools.
My pocket knife is hot pink, my socket wrenches are dipped pink, and most of my powertools have a flair of pink somewhere from a can of Krylon. Pink is natures danger color for the average nail swatter pounding monster energy and fried cake from the 7-11 at 4 AM. my job boxes are covered in unicorn stickers and rainbows.
My pocket knife is hot pink, my socket wrenches are dipped pink, and most of my powertools have a flair of pink somewhere from a can of Krylon. Pink is natures danger color for the average nail swatter pounding monster energy and fried cake from the 7-11 at 4 AM. my job boxes are covered in unicorn stickers and rainbows.
I used to do a lot of product demos that involved network equipment. All the patch cables I carried were either pink or purple. They were never confused with customer cables, and I do not ever recall one of them being stolen.
That only works because the people who'd steal your tools would steal them to use themselves.
There's a reason every large facility that provides its own tools has a tool crib where they track who checked out what.
There's a reason every large facility that provides its own tools has a tool crib where they track who checked out what.
And not just the tools, also the consumables. Endmills and such grow little legs as soon as they're out of the central depot. And that stuff really adds up.
I'm a musician. I make my own cables, all green.
I’ve heard that pink cars are the least likely to be stolen.
That's what I thought the title was referring to and my initial thought was it would be brilliant to "lojack" your power tools.
My Makita batteries have an anti-theft feature built-in that offers a way to disable the battery after a certain date or number of hours or days. You have to plug the battery back into a special terminal to "recharge" the day or hour timer or to set a new lockout with a PIN. It comes with warning stickers you can put on your batteries. The system is mostly just meant to prevent workers from borrowing equipment for weekend side jobs or keeping batteries after the job is finished. It doesn't actually stop someone from stealing them (or even the tool the battery goes with) but hopefully they read the sticker and realize that it's not worth stealing what will soon be a worthless battery. I've never used this feature but it's a neat system. Sometimes the tools themselves have anti-theft tags inside that will set off sensors but I don't know if anyone actually uses that outside of the store you bought the tool from.
I’m pretty sure you can just open the battery pack up and disconnect whatever circuit lives in there. The batteries are just packs of chemicals.
Maybe some time ago. Now the tool+battery has handshakes and all that; https://www.maximintegrated.com/en/products/power/battery-ma...
I have read about the coming cryptographically signed video cameras to prevent deep fakes. Now we have have signed battery packs. I can't wait to solder in mod-chips into my batteries like the good old days of game consoles.
It has become a lot of fun to strip DRM from anything I own. This feeling of freedom that I have that most consumers don't is exhilarating and sad at the same time.
We are still in the "good old days" where we can still choose to live most of life without DRM but I know the end will be coming one day.
I guess I can prolong it by maintaining my good makita tools, keep my N64 in tip top shape and take good care of whatever else I think will be DRM'ed in the future.
It has become a lot of fun to strip DRM from anything I own. This feeling of freedom that I have that most consumers don't is exhilarating and sad at the same time.
We are still in the "good old days" where we can still choose to live most of life without DRM but I know the end will be coming one day.
I guess I can prolong it by maintaining my good makita tools, keep my N64 in tip top shape and take good care of whatever else I think will be DRM'ed in the future.
I find this line of reasoning weak for one reason.
Things want to be as simple as they can be. DRM adds cost and complexity, it will _always_ be fighting an uphill battle. An electric drill is just an electric motor + chuck, MOSFET + pot, and a battery. Anything added on top of that has to justify itself.
Take a look at the printer industry, for example. You can buy the cartridge cartel inkjet printers, but most people already know that a laserjet is way more reliable -- because it's so simple.
Things want to be as simple as they can be. DRM adds cost and complexity, it will _always_ be fighting an uphill battle. An electric drill is just an electric motor + chuck, MOSFET + pot, and a battery. Anything added on top of that has to justify itself.
Take a look at the printer industry, for example. You can buy the cartridge cartel inkjet printers, but most people already know that a laserjet is way more reliable -- because it's so simple.
I think we are in agreement just coming at the argument from different angles.
Yes "things want to be as simple as they can be"...so when something dumb like DRM is bolted onto it, you point allows us strip it out that much easier. I believe that one day the design of an item will put DRM first and function second such that the item itself will be secondary to the DRM. I don't know what form this will take but I feel that it is coming. That is why I discussed maintaining my old equipment as long as possible to stall this inevitable day as long as possible.
>Take a look at the printer industry, for example. You can buy the cartridge cartel inkjet printers, but most people already know that a laserjet is way more reliable -- because it's so simple.
I'd argue that you are conflating two different things: Reliability with freedom(lack of DRM).
Laser printers are more reliable not due to the DRM but due to the technology itself.
If you wanna look at it from another POV: Laser printers suffer from cartridge lockout chips that count number of pages printed, the yellow dots printed on sheets that allow the government to trace a printed document back to a specific printer and now the encroaching trend of adding spyware to the printer drivers. Does that make Laser printer technology any worse? Nope. But all that DRM is there regardless of how good laser tech is.
Yes "things want to be as simple as they can be"...so when something dumb like DRM is bolted onto it, you point allows us strip it out that much easier. I believe that one day the design of an item will put DRM first and function second such that the item itself will be secondary to the DRM. I don't know what form this will take but I feel that it is coming. That is why I discussed maintaining my old equipment as long as possible to stall this inevitable day as long as possible.
>Take a look at the printer industry, for example. You can buy the cartridge cartel inkjet printers, but most people already know that a laserjet is way more reliable -- because it's so simple.
I'd argue that you are conflating two different things: Reliability with freedom(lack of DRM).
Laser printers are more reliable not due to the DRM but due to the technology itself.
If you wanna look at it from another POV: Laser printers suffer from cartridge lockout chips that count number of pages printed, the yellow dots printed on sheets that allow the government to trace a printed document back to a specific printer and now the encroaching trend of adding spyware to the printer drivers. Does that make Laser printer technology any worse? Nope. But all that DRM is there regardless of how good laser tech is.
I was actually relieved to find the opposite, that this only concerns the store until it goes out of the door.
There was a story the other day that Office 2010 was no longer activating in some regions because the activation servers just aren't there anymore. The downside of having an iphone-esque "activation lock" is that you could be left with a 10yo drill that isn't permitted to turn on because the activation servers have been abandoned - and any sensible workaround negates its use as a theft deterrent.
There was a story the other day that Office 2010 was no longer activating in some regions because the activation servers just aren't there anymore. The downside of having an iphone-esque "activation lock" is that you could be left with a 10yo drill that isn't permitted to turn on because the activation servers have been abandoned - and any sensible workaround negates its use as a theft deterrent.
> For example, we've all encountered those silly alarm systems at the doors. As I've never been a shoplifter, I've never had those go off on me except in error. When I worked at CompUSA for 5 years, we had a greeter at the door who told me "they've never once, in 15 years, caught a shoplifter". They went off several times a day, so the only people being stopped at the door were people who had purchased their goods being treated like a shoplifter.
A cashier once forgot to remove the alarm thing on an item I purchased after checking me out. The alarm went off about 20 feet before I was at the sensor, by the time another group was passing through. The security guard checked them and their receipts and let them go. When I passed through no alarm went off.
A cashier once forgot to remove the alarm thing on an item I purchased after checking me out. The alarm went off about 20 feet before I was at the sensor, by the time another group was passing through. The security guard checked them and their receipts and let them go. When I passed through no alarm went off.
I used to wear a fleece-lined sweatshirt that would set off the sensors at Barnes and Noble every time. I checked all over for the anti-theft sticker and had washed it multiple times but it must have been inside the jacket.
[deleted]
The simple way already effectively used by companies like B&H is that for high price items or things easily shop lifted, you take a ticket for the item, it's brought to checkout by employees or in b&h's system conveyor belts, and then you purchase it and they hand it to you. This is a solved problem without need for complicated and expensive solutions like yours (which cuts out people paying in cash which is a lot of home depot) or this new solve.
The way you describe and the way this process actually works, in my experience, are two different things.
I'll take the "reason I only buy razor blades online" as an example. I knew my Gillette was really dull and that I'd been out for going on a week, but kept forgetting to pick some up until I stopped at Walgreen's on the way home. I went to the aisle with the blades and was met with a card, instead of a set of blades. I took said card to the register. Walgreens is so slow; I swear the operate on one employee except when the Pharmacy is open. I get to the front, have the card and a now-annoyed cashier.
Three people behind me, she gets on the speaker and calls for assistance, has me step aside and starts ringing up the person behind me. Three people go through the register when Mr. Break comes up to the front to retrieve my item. He grabs the card, looks dubiously at it, says something quiet to the cashier and disappears. Two more customers later, he's back.
"We're out of this one."
"There were several cards there."
"We're supposed to get more in, today."
So I left. About a week later I remembered to order a few hundred dollars' worth online.
In defense of your post, I've seen it work. Except this last holiday season -- mostly due to the restrictions placed on them by the state I live in -- my local Microcenter usually handles this well. If I've happened upon a sales-person, the item I want is taken to the front/locked up before I get there so at least when I'm checking out, I'm not also waiting on someone to find the thing[0].
[0] That ... on one occasion ... ended up being purchased by someone else since I was visiting the store with my boss from out of town and we ended up spending a solid 5 hours there one afternoon.
I'll take the "reason I only buy razor blades online" as an example. I knew my Gillette was really dull and that I'd been out for going on a week, but kept forgetting to pick some up until I stopped at Walgreen's on the way home. I went to the aisle with the blades and was met with a card, instead of a set of blades. I took said card to the register. Walgreens is so slow; I swear the operate on one employee except when the Pharmacy is open. I get to the front, have the card and a now-annoyed cashier.
Three people behind me, she gets on the speaker and calls for assistance, has me step aside and starts ringing up the person behind me. Three people go through the register when Mr. Break comes up to the front to retrieve my item. He grabs the card, looks dubiously at it, says something quiet to the cashier and disappears. Two more customers later, he's back.
"We're out of this one."
"There were several cards there."
"We're supposed to get more in, today."
So I left. About a week later I remembered to order a few hundred dollars' worth online.
In defense of your post, I've seen it work. Except this last holiday season -- mostly due to the restrictions placed on them by the state I live in -- my local Microcenter usually handles this well. If I've happened upon a sales-person, the item I want is taken to the front/locked up before I get there so at least when I'm checking out, I'm not also waiting on someone to find the thing[0].
[0] That ... on one occasion ... ended up being purchased by someone else since I was visiting the store with my boss from out of town and we ended up spending a solid 5 hours there one afternoon.
>and they hand it to you
This involves paying someone to be the "they" to hand it to you and companies don't want to pay employees if they can possibly avoid it.
This involves paying someone to be the "they" to hand it to you and companies don't want to pay employees if they can possibly avoid it.
Locally, right now, it's hard to find ANYONE in the local Home Depot or Lowe's stores who actually works there. The registers have a skeleton crew, there's basically no one "helping" in the aisles, and usually only 1 or 2 people at the customer service and online order pickup desk.
The people you are able to find seem to be brand new at the job and are basically useless, even for simple things like getting the right online order picked from the shelf behind them as they have no idea what the organizational system is.
It's not just that you have to pay someone to do this, you have to be able to simply hire a warm body, and right now that seems horribly hard in retail where I am.
The people you are able to find seem to be brand new at the job and are basically useless, even for simple things like getting the right online order picked from the shelf behind them as they have no idea what the organizational system is.
It's not just that you have to pay someone to do this, you have to be able to simply hire a warm body, and right now that seems horribly hard in retail where I am.
No surprise there, construction is booming ... why take a low paying side job when you can make more doing what you know.
Costco manages it just fine. Want an iPad or iMac? Take the cardboard sheet and hand it to the cashier. Granted, Costco is always staffed, but it is possible.
We're all playing armchair strategist here, but I really don't understand the thinking or the decision here.
I mean, they kind of thought about CX! They didn't want to go with locked containers because they "don't want to affect the 99.5% of our customers who are just there to pick up their hammers and nails". Those 99.5% of customers who would see (not interact with—just see!) said locked container.
Then they go with this complex supply chain solutions that requires additional complexity (e.g., bluetooth technology) to be incorporated at the design step with vendors to make it all work.
That has to be multitudes more expensive than security tags and gates.
What's the error rate on that process? How many legitimate customers are going to be negatively affected by a miss in the "tool activation" step? And think about it: you're not going to figure out that they missed a step until you get home. Not like the alarm going off when you try to walk out the door before they forgot to remove it. Annoying, but at least you're still at the store!
All this in the name of deterrence. Those "silly alarm systems" aren't designed to catch shoplifters... they're to discourage people from shoplifting. Same thing here.
After all, it's not like the shoplifters are going to return the tools that don't work!
I mean, they kind of thought about CX! They didn't want to go with locked containers because they "don't want to affect the 99.5% of our customers who are just there to pick up their hammers and nails". Those 99.5% of customers who would see (not interact with—just see!) said locked container.
Then they go with this complex supply chain solutions that requires additional complexity (e.g., bluetooth technology) to be incorporated at the design step with vendors to make it all work.
That has to be multitudes more expensive than security tags and gates.
What's the error rate on that process? How many legitimate customers are going to be negatively affected by a miss in the "tool activation" step? And think about it: you're not going to figure out that they missed a step until you get home. Not like the alarm going off when you try to walk out the door before they forgot to remove it. Annoying, but at least you're still at the store!
All this in the name of deterrence. Those "silly alarm systems" aren't designed to catch shoplifters... they're to discourage people from shoplifting. Same thing here.
After all, it's not like the shoplifters are going to return the tools that don't work!
That’s an effective deterrent from a certain type of theft. Mostly casual/thrill seeking thieves.
CompUSAs big shrink issues were more organized criminals popping boxes open or flooding the store. I worked at one that was hit by a crime bus — 50 mostly non-English speaking Asians would occupy every employee and loot the place. (They hit all of the big box retailers in our area). The biggest issue was internal fraud.
CompUSAs big shrink issues were more organized criminals popping boxes open or flooding the store. I worked at one that was hit by a crime bus — 50 mostly non-English speaking Asians would occupy every employee and loot the place. (They hit all of the big box retailers in our area). The biggest issue was internal fraud.
What you're describing sounds awfully familiar, except for the "loot the place", our store was in Madison Heights, MI, which had/has a large Korean population nearby so it wasn't unusual to have days where it felt like we were being "mobbed by non-English speaking Asians[0]", but I'm not aware of that being used as a distraction at the store I worked at in the 90s -- interesting.
Internal fraud was incredible. One day just about the entire warehouse staff and I want to say a third of the floor staff was fired. If memory serves, the warehouse manager discovered that a large number of specialty "Made for Compaq/Dell" RAM by one of the major RAM vendors had its "COST" value set very wrong (to like $5.00 or something like that). The price paid by employees was whatever IMS said "COST" was. So a $350 memory chip could be purchased for $5.00 by an employee. After figuring it out, of course, he shared the knowledge with other members of staff who participated, as well. Dad always said "if it seems too good to be true, it is", so that -- alone -- was enough to keep me from making that mistake.
The other scam I recall them running was taking items home that were supposed to be destroyed per agreement with the manufacturer. It was very strange coming to work one day and finding out about half of the staff I used to work with was let go for fraud...
[0] We had this one local gentleman who was notoriously frustrating to handle. He'd come in with a million questions, spoke very poor English very quickly and became frustrated to the point of yelling, I think, "F** YOU" at me/storming off when I told him I was having a difficult time understanding ... due to an ear ache (didn't even mention said English; I was pretty good at understanding thick accents, normally).
[1] Not as great as it sounds -- I doubt it was "invoice cost", but if it was a PC/laptop/anything terribly expensive, it was frequently higher than the price of the item.
Internal fraud was incredible. One day just about the entire warehouse staff and I want to say a third of the floor staff was fired. If memory serves, the warehouse manager discovered that a large number of specialty "Made for Compaq/Dell" RAM by one of the major RAM vendors had its "COST" value set very wrong (to like $5.00 or something like that). The price paid by employees was whatever IMS said "COST" was. So a $350 memory chip could be purchased for $5.00 by an employee. After figuring it out, of course, he shared the knowledge with other members of staff who participated, as well. Dad always said "if it seems too good to be true, it is", so that -- alone -- was enough to keep me from making that mistake.
The other scam I recall them running was taking items home that were supposed to be destroyed per agreement with the manufacturer. It was very strange coming to work one day and finding out about half of the staff I used to work with was let go for fraud...
[0] We had this one local gentleman who was notoriously frustrating to handle. He'd come in with a million questions, spoke very poor English very quickly and became frustrated to the point of yelling, I think, "F** YOU" at me/storming off when I told him I was having a difficult time understanding ... due to an ear ache (didn't even mention said English; I was pretty good at understanding thick accents, normally).
[1] Not as great as it sounds -- I doubt it was "invoice cost", but if it was a PC/laptop/anything terribly expensive, it was frequently higher than the price of the item.
Some of my memory is coming back -- I recall a somewhat true-sounding explanation as to why the RAM was setup with a $5.00 cost value and why it was specific with branded, "Designed For", memory. I remember hearing that the reason they were fired is that the SKU was supposed to be on a receipt with the computer that was being upgraded; they're never supposed to be sold, alone, and this was something the warehouse manager knew of (he also knew they were poorly audited).
Corporate customers were usually paying on pricing terms that were "X% above cost". And enterprise sales had flexibility further to close a deal. These one-off products had something to do with that -- perhaps it allowed them to offer pre-configured systems for some customers that calculated to the agreed-upon price when their % above cost was calculated, or maybe it was just a way to "throw in the RAM on all of these shiny new Packard (Bells)".
Corporate customers were usually paying on pricing terms that were "X% above cost". And enterprise sales had flexibility further to close a deal. These one-off products had something to do with that -- perhaps it allowed them to offer pre-configured systems for some customers that calculated to the agreed-upon price when their % above cost was calculated, or maybe it was just a way to "throw in the RAM on all of these shiny new Packard (Bells)".
I suspect that those beepers do work: they discourage actual shoplifters to the point that they don't catch them anymore because those shoplifters will move on to stores that don't have the beepers or they successfully lose the tags because they know that they are going to shoplift.
And then there are these thingies:
https://www.aliexpress.com/w/wholesale-security-tag-detector...
And then there are these thingies:
https://www.aliexpress.com/w/wholesale-security-tag-detector...
Not being treated like a potential shoplifter would be nice!
A friend of mine and I had these door alarm systems go off while ENTERING a store.
We (around 13 or 14 at that time) had to take off most of our clothes in front of other customers (in the middle of the entry next to the registers) until the "store detective" found out it was my friends cap, wet from the rain that day, that triggered the system.
Never told anyone because we were ashamed af.
A friend of mine and I had these door alarm systems go off while ENTERING a store.
We (around 13 or 14 at that time) had to take off most of our clothes in front of other customers (in the middle of the entry next to the registers) until the "store detective" found out it was my friends cap, wet from the rain that day, that triggered the system.
Never told anyone because we were ashamed af.
In my opinion, the alarms at the doors are there to dissuade non experienced thiefs.
If the alarm goes off just hold up any piece of paper that looks like a receipt and keep walking. That's what I do when I'm not stealing anything at least, but nobody's ever stopped me to find out.
There's no reason to even bother holding something up. Just keep walking. It's what I've always done, and it's never once caused an issue even if there's somebody at the door.
If you are a dad with blond hair and blue eyes, that may help.
it's not only your opinion, it's an actual fact.
these are called deterrents. same as cctv and other tech. they're not bulletproof, their aim is to make life harder for the perp.
these are called deterrents. same as cctv and other tech. they're not bulletproof, their aim is to make life harder for the perp.
they are not really meant to catch shop lifters, they are meant to deter shoplifting. And to that extent, they likely work. Maybe not from "professionals", but from little smart ass tikes whom would otherwise think to be 'clever'.
Source: I used to shoplift as a kid. Don't grab the shit with buzzers.
Source: I used to shoplift as a kid. Don't grab the shit with buzzers.
> Change the way shopping is done so that shoplifting doesn't work. I fill a cart, walk through the gate out the door and receive a total, passing my card/phone over a sensor to pay. Of course, this means it's on Home Depot to get it right and I'm sure there will be ways to defeat the system.
This sounds an awful lot like how the Amazon retail / grocery stores work. You arrive, scan a QR code at a gate as you walk in. You take whatever you want, and then leave without dealing with anyone. A bit later, you receive a bill in your email and a charge is made to your card.
It's seamless and super convenient. It's also super creepy once you think about how it must work. I don't think I'd go back after that one visit.
This sounds an awful lot like how the Amazon retail / grocery stores work. You arrive, scan a QR code at a gate as you walk in. You take whatever you want, and then leave without dealing with anyone. A bit later, you receive a bill in your email and a charge is made to your card.
It's seamless and super convenient. It's also super creepy once you think about how it must work. I don't think I'd go back after that one visit.
My mum worked in an upscale retail store back in the day when they introduced the first version of that system. As you say they went of on customers all the time, so she or a coworker would be ready with a box chocolates and an apology. This wasn't cheap at all, but it was still worth it because it prevented so much theft.
I don't know if that is still the case, or it is just that thieves go for the easy stores that don't have any security. Back before reddit banned r/shoplifting I lurked there out of curiosity, and it seemed that those who posted there had pretty good ways around that security.
I don't know if that is still the case, or it is just that thieves go for the easy stores that don't have any security. Back before reddit banned r/shoplifting I lurked there out of curiosity, and it seemed that those who posted there had pretty good ways around that security.
> As you say they went of on customers all the time, so she or a coworker would be ready with a box chocolates and an apology.
You have been randomly selected to receive a door prize! We just need to confirm your receipt first…
You have been randomly selected to receive a door prize! We just need to confirm your receipt first…
When I worked at CompUSA, our door greeter did pursue a shoplifter who pushed him down on the way out, resulting in a sprained wrist. They ended up firing him because the explicit policy was not to pursue shoplifters for the very reason that risk of injury is too high.
I learned a lot of basic retail stuff at that job, like the fact that, for emergencies, all automatic sliding doors have to be capable of being pushed open. It seems like all the shoplifters knew it, there were a few times I saw someone bang straight on through them.
I learned a lot of basic retail stuff at that job, like the fact that, for emergencies, all automatic sliding doors have to be capable of being pushed open. It seems like all the shoplifters knew it, there were a few times I saw someone bang straight on through them.
That's funny when putting it through the lens of the store I worked at. Our door greeter was a 70 year old frail woman who was a little out-spoken. I can actually see her running out the door after a shop-lifter, but I can't see it end well. (I'm just not sure for whom)
> I fill a cart, walk through the gate out the door and receive a total, passing my card/phone over a sensor to pay.
More technology? Maybe the wrong direction.
Oldest "hack" in modern shoplifting is to swap the contents of the boxes. You open two boxes on the floor, swap tools, get the better tool charged for the lesser-priced tool.
Or as you suggest, merely remove the identification tag so it is not charged at all.
Maybe just bring back cashiers to ring people up?
More technology? Maybe the wrong direction.
Oldest "hack" in modern shoplifting is to swap the contents of the boxes. You open two boxes on the floor, swap tools, get the better tool charged for the lesser-priced tool.
Or as you suggest, merely remove the identification tag so it is not charged at all.
Maybe just bring back cashiers to ring people up?
In some of my encounter with alarm systems at door, there was a gap in which a person can just walk through and not trigger any alarm.
I remember that, shopping at CompUSA. Even more annoying we're alarms in items themselves, display items. Turn the item around to look at it and the alarm could go off, and take a staff member 5 minutes to walk over and deactivate it. Then a few minutes later it would happen again with a different product.
We used to attach the little tags to people's clothing, especially customers who were very difficult[0].
I'm not sure who pointed it out, but we learned that simply pushing on the top of the "tag" would keep it from triggering the alarm. A few years later, the boxes started showing up with the tags on the inside (that was nice; we no longer had to tag those boxes before stocking them).
I still wonder, though, if they served any purpose outside of frustrating legitimate customers. I get that they are supposed to serve as a deterrent to casual theft, but when the cameras came in and we started bringing the cops by almost every day for theft, it was clear that the alarm system was serving very little useful purpose.
[0] I was 16 at the time!
I'm not sure who pointed it out, but we learned that simply pushing on the top of the "tag" would keep it from triggering the alarm. A few years later, the boxes started showing up with the tags on the inside (that was nice; we no longer had to tag those boxes before stocking them).
I still wonder, though, if they served any purpose outside of frustrating legitimate customers. I get that they are supposed to serve as a deterrent to casual theft, but when the cameras came in and we started bringing the cops by almost every day for theft, it was clear that the alarm system was serving very little useful purpose.
[0] I was 16 at the time!
> but if I got my tool home and it simply didn't work
I have bought items without the anti-theft devices being removed, everything from guns to booze.
In the latter case, on one of the occasions when that happened, it was possible albeit slightly challenging to simply wriggle the anti-theft device off.
In other cases, though, I had to return to the store.
I have bought items without the anti-theft devices being removed, everything from guns to booze.
In the latter case, on one of the occasions when that happened, it was possible albeit slightly challenging to simply wriggle the anti-theft device off.
In other cases, though, I had to return to the store.
A few years back I purchased a deer rifle from a local sporting goods store and when I got home I realized they had forgotten to remove their trigger lock. It was about a 30min drive back to the store so I just picked the lock and tossed it aside. Naturally, the next day the store calls looking for their lock and they are very adamant I should return their equipment, but they were less inclined to actually drive over to my place and pick it up.
> I couldn't help while reading this thinking 'Security is in charge of Customer Experience'. O
> The alternative is to turn the whole thing upside down. Change the way shopping is done so that shoplifting doesn't work. I fill a cart, walk through the gate out the door and receive a total, passing my card/phone over a sensor to pay.
Your post seemed to start with criticising security being in charge of customer experience, and seemed to end with proposing changing the entire shopping experience to avoid theft.
> The alternative is to turn the whole thing upside down. Change the way shopping is done so that shoplifting doesn't work. I fill a cart, walk through the gate out the door and receive a total, passing my card/phone over a sensor to pay.
Your post seemed to start with criticising security being in charge of customer experience, and seemed to end with proposing changing the entire shopping experience to avoid theft.
Sure? The problem isn't that security is integrated into the way the store works, the problem is that security is making things harder for the customer. The proposed solution reworks the store, true, but it does so in order to maximize convenience for the customer.
Security is always a trade off with user/customer experience.
It's much more convenient to just not have a door or always leave it unlocked.
It's much more convenient to just not have a door or always leave it unlocked.
You dont have to go to prison for prison to have an effect on your mind.
Do you get the analogy?
Do you get the analogy?
Some stores, like Costco, have an interesting, alternative approach. Many items in their electronics department are prepay. You can try out the floor model (tethered to the display platform), and if you wish to purchase it you pull a cardboard item card. That card is scanned during the checkout process, and once payment is received, the staff bring the physical item from secure storage to the post-paid customer.
With the item card approach, you never have the product in your hands until it has been paid for. Between that practice and their receipt checking at the exit, I do wonder what their theft numbers look like.
With the item card approach, you never have the product in your hands until it has been paid for. Between that practice and their receipt checking at the exit, I do wonder what their theft numbers look like.
Around here in <some European country>, they do this quite often with stuff that tends to get stolen (video games and such) and stuff that they must not sell to children (like razor blades).
You just get a bit of cardboard from the aisle, and either the cashier gives you the item when you pay, or you retrieve it from a counter, showing the receipt.
It’s actually quite mind-boggling that their conclusion from their risk analysis is to get this high-tech solution with potentially much worse user experience, than the foolproof low-tech one that just involves them paying one more bloke.
You just get a bit of cardboard from the aisle, and either the cashier gives you the item when you pay, or you retrieve it from a counter, showing the receipt.
It’s actually quite mind-boggling that their conclusion from their risk analysis is to get this high-tech solution with potentially much worse user experience, than the foolproof low-tech one that just involves them paying one more bloke.
It's not just paying the person to get your product after you pay for it; they also need to rearrange their space to store those things (many which are bulky) towards the front of the store. Locked cases are an in between step, need a person to help, but don't need a dedicated space at the front.
Fair enough, this needs to be taken into account in the stock management.
That said, for bulky items there is either someone bringing them over, or a counter closer to where the stuff is stored (often in another building). They don't keep stuff like piles of large TVs at the front of the store.
That said, for bulky items there is either someone bringing them over, or a counter closer to where the stuff is stored (often in another building). They don't keep stuff like piles of large TVs at the front of the store.
Had the same experience buying a CPU from Microcenter. You told a store associate what processor you wanted, he wrote it on a cardboard slip, then you get the product after checkout is paid for. Overall I was pretty happy with the process. Hardest part was hunting down a sales associate.
At Costco you don't even have to tell a store associate. They have a stack of cardboard posters with the item on it and you take that to the register
Fry's had a cage behind the registers with all their small expensive parts like CPUs and RAM.
I've never been to Costco, but Toys R Us used to have their video games like that in the 80s. We also had a chain of stores around here called Best, that I seem to recall having a conveyor belt of whatever you bought, and you would stand there with your receipt waiting for it to come out. I may have imagined that though. Either way, it would be much more effective at stopping theft.
As we transition to more pickup/delivery-type retail that will happen more and more. Expect to see the "counter" move forward toward the front of the store as grocery and retail return to the "general store" type aesthetic, where most of the stock is behind the counter instead of in front of it.
Will also eventually save on packaging too, as it won't have to be flashy.
Will also eventually save on packaging too, as it won't have to be flashy.
> I do wonder what their theft numbers look like.
Toys'R'Us would know - they were doing that with Nintendo games all the way back in the 80s.
Toys'R'Us would know - they were doing that with Nintendo games all the way back in the 80s.
Toys'R'Us also did that with their larger-ticket items, such as bicycles.
It's such a simple, smart policy and it doesn't frustrate honest customers.
When I read the headline I thought it meant stolen post-purchase. When I lived in Chicago in the '90s I heard stories (never validated) that contractors would show up at the Maxwell Street Market on the weekend to re-purchase the tools that were stolen from their jobsites during the week. I can validate there were a lot of really, really used power tools for sale there.
It wasn't quite that bad; but yeah there were some places in the Chicago area where you could go and be likely to find anything you'd come up missing. It was cool to see what was "OK" for those markets and what they wouldn't buy and sell; police mobile radios should've been a lot more valuable than that.
Even in the mid 2010s I saw some questionable power tools at Maxwell Street Market that "fell off a truck". I have a specific memory of a hammer drill that had splatters of very-fresh cement on it.
Did they get them with mustard and onions? As a fellow Chicagoan I went to know.
It's an obvious idea so there must be a reason it's not implemented - I'm curious what that reason is though, so here it goes:
Why don't they just take the batteries and/or motors out of the products on the shelves?
Instead of adding complex computer shenanigans, why not design the product so that the most expensive part (e.g. a battery in portable tools, a motor or gearbox in mains-powered ones) is removable, shipped to store separately, and installed (or just given out) by the check-out clerk separately? Surely this must be simpler overall than adding digital complexity to where it doesn't belong[0].
The only reason I can think of is logistics - a wireless kill switch doesn't take extra space in the store, and doesn't create extra burden for inventory tracking. On the other hand, any wireless kill switch that doesn't involve turning the device into an always-connected surveillance system, with a built-in SIM card and crypto chip and all, will eventually be defeated by some trivial bit of DIY electronics (and the plans for that will spread among thieves quickly[1]).
--
[0] - Not in this century, anyway. Maybe 100 years from now we'll be able to routinely make cheap computer add-ons that don't suck.
[1] - Like the plans for breaking into cars in era before advanced electronic countermeasures. Almost two decades ago, I once saw a bundle of such files on someone's computer, collected by the owner out of general curiosity - IIRC, it was a bunch of PDFs with diagrams showing, per make and model of a car, into what shape you need to bend a piece of metal, and where to slide it, to defeat the central lock.
Why don't they just take the batteries and/or motors out of the products on the shelves?
Instead of adding complex computer shenanigans, why not design the product so that the most expensive part (e.g. a battery in portable tools, a motor or gearbox in mains-powered ones) is removable, shipped to store separately, and installed (or just given out) by the check-out clerk separately? Surely this must be simpler overall than adding digital complexity to where it doesn't belong[0].
The only reason I can think of is logistics - a wireless kill switch doesn't take extra space in the store, and doesn't create extra burden for inventory tracking. On the other hand, any wireless kill switch that doesn't involve turning the device into an always-connected surveillance system, with a built-in SIM card and crypto chip and all, will eventually be defeated by some trivial bit of DIY electronics (and the plans for that will spread among thieves quickly[1]).
--
[0] - Not in this century, anyway. Maybe 100 years from now we'll be able to routinely make cheap computer add-ons that don't suck.
[1] - Like the plans for breaking into cars in era before advanced electronic countermeasures. Almost two decades ago, I once saw a bundle of such files on someone's computer, collected by the owner out of general curiosity - IIRC, it was a bunch of PDFs with diagrams showing, per make and model of a car, into what shape you need to bend a piece of metal, and where to slide it, to defeat the central lock.
I can see the totalitarian-minded mining this for a revenue opportunity to create an exciting new era of subscription-based power tools. You could have geofenced tools (your licensed job site) and tools that only work during specific hours or for a specific period of time. Higher torque settings or speeds could be unlockable features. Accessories would be DRM-locked (for "safety" and to "prevent theft").
This already happens in earth moving equipment.
The design of the tools will become increasingly complicated to tightly couple DRM functionality to prevent the trivial DIY electronics hacks that you describe. (My sci-fi brain is imaging motors with wacky windings that need specially PWM'ed streams of electricity to spin effectively, etc...)
I hate our industry so much.
This already happens in earth moving equipment.
The design of the tools will become increasingly complicated to tightly couple DRM functionality to prevent the trivial DIY electronics hacks that you describe. (My sci-fi brain is imaging motors with wacky windings that need specially PWM'ed streams of electricity to spin effectively, etc...)
I hate our industry so much.
Just wait until government and industry lobbyists get their hands on it. The powered PEX expander or wire terminal crimpler will need someone who's in the database as having the proper license in order to enable it after you buy it. You cross state lines and your tools won't work because you won't have the valid license. You try and use your tools near the property line and it won't let you because the DB has the wrong coordinates and thinks you're trying to work at the facility next door and you need to be in the union to do that. Of course the company will sell you the unlocked version of the $200 tool for $3k. If you bring too many power tools from different owners to a the same place and that place isn't in the DB as having a building permit the building inspector will show up with some thin veneer of parallel construction.
(Hopefully pressure from the low end tool manufacturers who try and compete on value keeps these kinds of things from happening.)
(Hopefully pressure from the low end tool manufacturers who try and compete on value keeps these kinds of things from happening.)
> Hopefully pressure from the low end tool manufacturers who try and compete on value keeps these kinds of things from happening.
Looking at the sad state of TVs (where the cheap brands just hop on the bandwagon and make a quick buck), I am not very hopeful. Everyone will be as consumer-hostile as they can get away with if they think they can make a few cents that way.
Looking at the sad state of TVs (where the cheap brands just hop on the bandwagon and make a quick buck), I am not very hopeful. Everyone will be as consumer-hostile as they can get away with if they think they can make a few cents that way.
> Higher torque settings or speeds could be unlockable features.
Diabolical. “Scan this QR code to watch an ad and unlock 30 minutes of 3x speed!”
Diabolical. “Scan this QR code to watch an ad and unlock 30 minutes of 3x speed!”
"please submit proof of your <trade> license on our website to unlock this feature"
Can't have scabs who aren't several years invested in the system doing work. (i'd /s it but the people who push these things will unironically say stuff like that).
Can't have scabs who aren't several years invested in the system doing work. (i'd /s it but the people who push these things will unironically say stuff like that).
Yeah. I was desperately trying to be charitable, but I suspect you're correct and this is the motivating reason.
> My sci-fi brain is imaging motors with wacky windings that need specially PWM'ed streams of electricity to spin effectively, etc...
After having recently read too many military sci-fi novels in short succession[0], I started to think how warring alien species would secure their military hardware against reverse engineering. I came to a similar conclusion - there would likely be a whole field of making every possible bit of a device coupled with every other bit, kind of like homomorphic encryption, but done with atoms and fields instead of bits. Like you said - windings that only work if you PWM the voltage precisely, perhaps according to some algorithm that compensates for those windings being scrambled, softly shorted, and otherwise smeared across half of the device's interior surface. Etc. Impossible to fix, but also impossible to figure out without original schematics.
And yes, the way the market is heading, I suspect we'll start doing this to ourselves to secure sales and protect IP.
--
[0] - The Expeditionary Force book series.
> My sci-fi brain is imaging motors with wacky windings that need specially PWM'ed streams of electricity to spin effectively, etc...
After having recently read too many military sci-fi novels in short succession[0], I started to think how warring alien species would secure their military hardware against reverse engineering. I came to a similar conclusion - there would likely be a whole field of making every possible bit of a device coupled with every other bit, kind of like homomorphic encryption, but done with atoms and fields instead of bits. Like you said - windings that only work if you PWM the voltage precisely, perhaps according to some algorithm that compensates for those windings being scrambled, softly shorted, and otherwise smeared across half of the device's interior surface. Etc. Impossible to fix, but also impossible to figure out without original schematics.
And yes, the way the market is heading, I suspect we'll start doing this to ourselves to secure sales and protect IP.
--
[0] - The Expeditionary Force book series.
> I can see the totalitarian-minded mining this for a revenue opportunity to create an exciting new era of subscription-based power tools.
Think bigger. Power tools that phone home describing their use and location, all tied to an individual via credit-card checkout (or face recognition) and/or warranty sign-up.
It's probably best to think of the modern world as being constructed with the substrate of a Las Vegas casino.
Think bigger. Power tools that phone home describing their use and location, all tied to an individual via credit-card checkout (or face recognition) and/or warranty sign-up.
It's probably best to think of the modern world as being constructed with the substrate of a Las Vegas casino.
Could this also give unions control over what tools are approved for use on specific jobs or in specific regions? Or be used to detect when a union worker is doing a job they are not allowed to do? This is a thing. I had to "look the other way" when a person was sanding some wood, as if I cared. There was a specific union that was supposed to do the sanding and this was preventing the framer from completing their job.
The number of people who just take state regulatory enforcement action as something that's good by default is much larger than the number of people who give unions the same benefit of the doubt so we'll probably see geofencing tied to professional licenses at the state level before we see it on the facility/jobsite level and tied to unions.
Large equipment in industries that can afford it is already activated by employee badge for QC and employee tracking purposes so what you're describing already exists in some settings.
Large equipment in industries that can afford it is already activated by employee badge for QC and employee tracking purposes so what you're describing already exists in some settings.
> Why don't they just take the batteries and/or motors out of the products on the shelves?
And even if that's possible, it would be "easy" only for a highly-compensated, skilled mechanic with the right tools and 5-20 minutes of time. That's never going to be the case in neighborhood Home Depot's.
> Of course, it would also require cooperation from the tool manufacturers concerning warranties and to to accommodate their product-design to a process like that
I understand they're already involved - you can't just add an electronic kill switch after market, it has to be built into device, or else it would be too trivial to bypass.
I understand they're already involved - you can't just add an electronic kill switch after market, it has to be built into device, or else it would be too trivial to bypass.
They have to sell replacement batteries, so the power tool would still have a high value.
But, I have seen places where you just take a piece of paper to the checkout rather than the tool itself.
But, I have seen places where you just take a piece of paper to the checkout rather than the tool itself.
>But, I have seen places where you just take a piece of paper to the checkout rather than the tool itself.
How is this not the solution, and more technology is? The local hardware store has cardboard slips you take to customer service for high-end/expensive tools, they then ring you up and you walk out with your newly purchased tool.
They've done that since the 90's. It's not that hard to figure out. Why does every problem need a *TECHNOLOGY* solution? I'm genuinely confused by all of this.
How is this not the solution, and more technology is? The local hardware store has cardboard slips you take to customer service for high-end/expensive tools, they then ring you up and you walk out with your newly purchased tool.
They've done that since the 90's. It's not that hard to figure out. Why does every problem need a *TECHNOLOGY* solution? I'm genuinely confused by all of this.
> Why does every problem need a *TECHNOLOGY* solution?
Cynical view: because a third party vendor bullshitted a company into thinking they need this overcomplicated contraption that they're selling, and the manager being bullshitted is too far away from the shop floor to realize it's a dumb idea (or they just don't care).
Cynical view: because a third party vendor bullshitted a company into thinking they need this overcomplicated contraption that they're selling, and the manager being bullshitted is too far away from the shop floor to realize it's a dumb idea (or they just don't care).
>> But, I have seen places where you just take a piece of paper to the checkout rather than the tool itself.
That's how we bought video games in the 80's from Toys R Us.
That's how we bought video games in the 80's from Toys R Us.
I think most stores with construction materials will allow the "pencil and paper" purchase flow, because it's needed for purchasing big/heavy stuff or buying in bulk. You give the note to the clerk, pay for the stuff, and arrange delivery.
> Why don’t they just take the batteries and/or motors out of the products on the shelves?
I don’t know, but two reasons I can imagine are:
- It may be much more expensive to have to install motors at checkout. That would mean needing all motorized tools to be designed with removable motors, which most are currently not. That would almost certainly mean a skilled staffing increase company-wide to find & fetch & install motors, a reduction in customer experience having to wait for it, running the risk of having the motor out of stock, etc. I’d speculate that a commodity chip inserted into the power circuit is a very cheap solution in comparison, and perhaps something Home Depot can do now without asking the manufacturers for anything.
- The cutoff circuitry can potentially be sold and marketed as a consumer feature. If the customer can also walk away with a tool they can disable, then the solution helps second-hand theft too. I’d bet that contractors would absolutely love the ability to disable and even track their tools using a smart-phone app.
I don’t know, but two reasons I can imagine are:
- It may be much more expensive to have to install motors at checkout. That would mean needing all motorized tools to be designed with removable motors, which most are currently not. That would almost certainly mean a skilled staffing increase company-wide to find & fetch & install motors, a reduction in customer experience having to wait for it, running the risk of having the motor out of stock, etc. I’d speculate that a commodity chip inserted into the power circuit is a very cheap solution in comparison, and perhaps something Home Depot can do now without asking the manufacturers for anything.
- The cutoff circuitry can potentially be sold and marketed as a consumer feature. If the customer can also walk away with a tool they can disable, then the solution helps second-hand theft too. I’d bet that contractors would absolutely love the ability to disable and even track their tools using a smart-phone app.
What about weight? With some of that removed you get the wrong feeling for how it handles. Not exactly unimportant for power tools.
That's a good point, thanks! Solving it by adding weight-equivalent dummies would further complicate this idea.
[deleted]
Shades of "software dongles"
It won’t work for them to lock the tools by Bluetooth. Open the tool, remove the deadman switch, and the tool works. A power tool is a switch that connects the power source to the motor.
Most tools are battery operated these days. The batteries have a computer in them. You could have it refuse to deliver power if the tool isn’t properly activated. Similarly, the vario-resistor in the trigger could be replaced with a computer.
They’re not going to throw their existing batteries away, so the computer will be on the switch. The switch is a variable resistor and easy to bypass to remove the anti theft. This will have the same consumer push back as the last time Milwaukee tried to put anti theft in their tools.
Wow, this quote: Organized retail crime costs retailers an average of $719,548 per $1 billion in sales, a 2020 survey from the National Retail Federation found — a nearly 60% increase from 2015.
The cost of all this shoplifting is 0.7% up from 0.45%.
Meanwhile, over the same period, the cost of using your credit card at home depot went up over 1% from 1.3% to 2.4%.
Who is the bigger threat to your business here, really?
The cost of all this shoplifting is 0.7% up from 0.45%.
Meanwhile, over the same period, the cost of using your credit card at home depot went up over 1% from 1.3% to 2.4%.
Who is the bigger threat to your business here, really?
> $719,548 per $1 billion in sales [...] The cost of all this shoplifting is 0.7% up from 0.45%.
Wouldn't that be 0.072%?
Wouldn't that be 0.072%?
yup. they are installing trackers and justifying it with nearly inconsequential losses. patriot act all over again.
> Meanwhile, over the same period, the cost of using your credit card at home depot went up over 1% from 1.3% to 2.4%.
Did it? I suspect that large retailers like Home Depot can negotiate substantially on the credit card fees.
Did it? I suspect that large retailers like Home Depot can negotiate substantially on the credit card fees.
Can absolutely confirm that these numbers are negotiable. If you have any amount of scale, ask your processor (places like Stripe or Authorize.net or PayPal for online CC processing). Just bringing it up with sales or customer service, without even having a competing offer, might well get you a "gimme" amount off the public figure. And do shop other providers, if you're processing even tens of thousands a month they might make you a better offer than what you're getting and than the public prices.
wait... are we sure we're reading these numbers right?
that $1 billion. is that the income earned from the sale? Or is that the profit the retailer keeps all told?
As an example, how many chainsaws does Home Depot have to sell before it pays for the theft of one chainsaw? I would assume much more than one.
I think the NRF are just listing the sum MSRP's of legitimately sold items vs stolen items. You can't just divide that to get the "portion of harm"
that $1 billion. is that the income earned from the sale? Or is that the profit the retailer keeps all told?
As an example, how many chainsaws does Home Depot have to sell before it pays for the theft of one chainsaw? I would assume much more than one.
I think the NRF are just listing the sum MSRP's of legitimately sold items vs stolen items. You can't just divide that to get the "portion of harm"
I agree that there are a number of sources of possible error, from the retailer to the reporter that is summarizing from a much larger report.
That said, the computation of 'shrinkage' has been defined as MSRP of products that are stolen and/or damaged, divided by the gross sales of all products. The number captures "lost" revenue.
My nephew, who is working at a large nationwide retailer and has access to all of this data for their stores, has told me in the past (and I presume it is still true), that the largest component of "loss" experienced on the retail side is through employee theft, either directly, or by assisting a partner to evade the payment systems. The smallest portion of this loss is from people who come into the store and take merchandise without paying for it.
The "interesting" thing about that story, is not that it makes it harder to sneak out a tool, but that it requires a register transaction for that tool to work. Combined with inventory management of that tool, internal theft rings are uncovered because the employee facilitating the theft has to use their register to do so. But the stores won't tell you that of course.
Just like back in the day getting out of a Fry's Electronics was like being released from a SuperMAX prison lockup with all the gates and checks and re-checks. They too were much more worried about employee theft than individuals stealing stuff.
That said, the computation of 'shrinkage' has been defined as MSRP of products that are stolen and/or damaged, divided by the gross sales of all products. The number captures "lost" revenue.
My nephew, who is working at a large nationwide retailer and has access to all of this data for their stores, has told me in the past (and I presume it is still true), that the largest component of "loss" experienced on the retail side is through employee theft, either directly, or by assisting a partner to evade the payment systems. The smallest portion of this loss is from people who come into the store and take merchandise without paying for it.
The "interesting" thing about that story, is not that it makes it harder to sneak out a tool, but that it requires a register transaction for that tool to work. Combined with inventory management of that tool, internal theft rings are uncovered because the employee facilitating the theft has to use their register to do so. But the stores won't tell you that of course.
Just like back in the day getting out of a Fry's Electronics was like being released from a SuperMAX prison lockup with all the gates and checks and re-checks. They too were much more worried about employee theft than individuals stealing stuff.
I'm skeptical of the effectiveness.
The article states that the reason for this intervention is a set of organized shoplifting rings that operate as shadow businesses.
I have a hard time believing that an organized operation won't eventually figure out how to enable stolen gear. Maybe via technological means by figuring out how the bluetooth "enable" protocol works or waiting for a vuln in the tool's bt stack, but much more likely by just bribing a cashier or manager.
Keeping valuable merchandise behind lock and key -- or behind the counter -- seems like a more effective solution.
The article states that the reason for this intervention is a set of organized shoplifting rings that operate as shadow businesses.
I have a hard time believing that an organized operation won't eventually figure out how to enable stolen gear. Maybe via technological means by figuring out how the bluetooth "enable" protocol works or waiting for a vuln in the tool's bt stack, but much more likely by just bribing a cashier or manager.
Keeping valuable merchandise behind lock and key -- or behind the counter -- seems like a more effective solution.
Honestly if they do enough volume to spin custom silicon, which gets cheaper and more accessible every year, it would become impractical to bypass the security. You essentially would get an electric motor and would need to rig up your own controller. And likely also figure out how to get the DRM battery to work with it.
It's a power tool, why does it need any silicon at all?
Obviously the primary current path of battery -> trigger -> motor isn't going to be able to be routed through any integrated circuits. So I have a hard time imagining that this won't be trivially bypassable.
Obviously the primary current path of battery -> trigger -> motor isn't going to be able to be routed through any integrated circuits. So I have a hard time imagining that this won't be trivially bypassable.
The motor is driven by a controller which modulates external switching transistors as a function of trigger percentage and the direction switch.
It likely also does stuff like battery monitoring and thermal foldback.
It likely also does stuff like battery monitoring and thermal foldback.
They can always steal the equipment that unlocks it all. There have to be thousands of those pieces of equipment at every Home Depot out there. One of them disappears but isn't reported as stolen and now you've got your master key to unlock anything you want.
Brushless tools, which are increasingly common, absolutely require silicon to manage the pulses of electricity to the winding groups.
Pretty much all motor controllers these days are silicon based.
[deleted]
> "We certainly don't want to affect the 99.5% of our customers who are just there to pick up their hammers and nails," Glenn said. "We don't want to look like an armed encampment."
Although you still need to track down an employee to buy something (who moves it to a different locked area at checkout). And then wait again at checkout to have a 2nd employee go fetch it.
Similarly, at Walmart, even the $15 hair dryers are locked in glass cases, which the warden must unlock with a large ring of keys.
Similarly, at Walmart, even the $15 hair dryers are locked in glass cases, which the warden must unlock with a large ring of keys.
Next thing you know they'll turn themselves off if you don't renew your support contract, or try to use unsupported screws.
I wouldn't be surprised if "unsupported screws" was already a thing with some high-end products.
I've once had in hands an advanced automatic torque wrench that had a built-in barcode scanner in front - ostensibly so that it could tell what part of an assembly you're screwing in, so it can pick the correct torque settings from a pre-programmed database. But it's a short hop from there to verifying you're using fasteners up to spec, and this can be trivially extended to ensuring you're using the right fasteners :).
I've once had in hands an advanced automatic torque wrench that had a built-in barcode scanner in front - ostensibly so that it could tell what part of an assembly you're screwing in, so it can pick the correct torque settings from a pre-programmed database. But it's a short hop from there to verifying you're using fasteners up to spec, and this can be trivially extended to ensuring you're using the right fasteners :).
I get the impression there might be a hurdle with building regulations.
I get where you're coming from but that's a bit extreme. It's pretty clear Home Depot doesn't like doing this.
They already don't mechanically fit any batteries but the OEM's.
The lock-in is real.
The lock-in is real.
There are battery adapters from amazon and 3rd party batteries available readily. Your argument doesn't hold water.
And oem batteries have systems in place to prevent over-use, over-heating and will shut off to prevent battery damage. So its less like DRM for batteries and more like each tool is designed along side its battery for performance.
And oem batteries have systems in place to prevent over-use, over-heating and will shut off to prevent battery damage. So its less like DRM for batteries and more like each tool is designed along side its battery for performance.
Good luck using a non-One-Key battery in a Milwaukee tool.
Details: https://www.protoolreviews.com/milwaukee-one-key-technology/
Supports location tracking and geofencing
Supports location tracking and geofencing
lol, I came here to say the same thing. John Deere style. Or K-Cup authorization. It's only a matter of time.
The industry standard for this is manufacturers of siding/windows/etc calling out that improper installation can void the product warranty.
That’s the (adjacent) premise of Cory Doctorow’s “Unauthorized Bread”
I'd be interested in a feature like this that works for the owner after the sale. I assume that would mean that I have to have an app on my phone running to use the tool, and that's not great, but I could live with it. I have friends whose homes and trucks have been broken into just to take their tools. These were contractors and it was a major setback for them. Theft deterrence is worth a fair amount of inconvenience to many buyers.
Check this out - https://onekey.milwaukeetool.com
I expect other manufacturers are working on similar things.
I expect other manufacturers are working on similar things.
I assume that would mean that I have to have an app on my phone running to use the tool...
Which won't be updated when your phone OS changes, necessitating purchasing new tools. Sounds like a win!
Which won't be updated when your phone OS changes, necessitating purchasing new tools. Sounds like a win!
As a consumer I have no interest in a power tool with BT (de)activation built in. I will not buy from them.
The question is whether they tell you. It might be like this internet-lite (where you share a NAT connection with a dozen other customers) that is never mentioned by the ISP, before or after purchase, until you notice you can't host games, nextcloud, or anything else.
You can just test if it works when picking it up
Sure, and then you drill stuff for a year, something rattles loose, and then the device bricks because of the DRM which is designed to be hard to bypass (i.e. nigh-impossible to repair by yourself).
At least that's what I think their point was and I can see the reasoning.
At least that's what I think their point was and I can see the reasoning.
Me neither, but what do you do if the all the quality brands don’t offer anything else? Do you prefer the poorly performing drill, or the one that works really well and has this thing you never use?
I’ve bought enough tools from harbor freight to be struggling with the question.
I’ve bought enough tools from harbor freight to be struggling with the question.
I don't mind if the tools would be locked up, I mind that I have to spend 10 minutes trying to find someone to tell them I want it and then he has to find someone who has the key that I have to wait another 10 minutes for the person to come and unlock it and give it to me. I would be more than happy if they have a system where I can do something to indicate that I want this item and then later when I check out it is waiting for me by the register or some pickup counter.
So what happens if this bluetooth device fails and bricks your drill after you bought it? These things are used in construction and take a constant beating. They last for as long as they do because they're simply and reliably designed. Why not just put a bluetooth tracker in the box that's disabled when purchased?
I'd say they probably considered that a feature.
From the headline, I thought this would be for tools that get stolen from trades people's vans. That would be useful. It seems to be a very common occurrence, and you often see the locks on vans upgraded.
Dewalt (and a few others) already have Bluetooth-enabled batteries that can do this. You can take some of their "Tool Connect" batteries and disable them over Bluetooth, or put them into a time-limited "lending mode" that kills the pack after X amount of time.
https://www.dewalt.com/products/power-tools/connected-produc...
https://www.dewalt.com/products/power-tools/connected-produc...
I noticed Milwaukee mentioned in this thread as one of the vendors involved - yes, they can do this too (https://onekey.milwaukeetool.com/Connected-Tools) - this sounds like an extension of the same idea.
Thanks (& to kotaKat). That sounds like good news.
When I lived in Washington, DC, and was fixing up a house there were contractors who simply would not take jobs there. They knew it meant getting their tools stolen from their vans. They would travel long distances for jobs within VA or MD, but refuse to drive a few miles into DC.
It sounds like the beginning of "power tools as a service" which would be terrible.
However, I could see a "power tools subscription model" as an interesting idea for contractors and other serious power tool users: A contractor pays a monthly fee and gets a steady supply of drill bits and replacement power tools.
However, I could see a "power tools subscription model" as an interesting idea for contractors and other serious power tool users: A contractor pays a monthly fee and gets a steady supply of drill bits and replacement power tools.
You can definitely rent tools, including from HD, but it's much more common for pros to use financing from the manufacturer.
For non professionals you sometimes get community tool libraries.
I think I would like this service. I already use tool rental at HD for stuff I don't want to own.
Would be great to have a neighborhood "lending library" for tools.
Sounds like the local hire shops?
This is the most unnecessarily expensive and convoluted solution. Every product would have to be updated to support this system and it only works with electrical devices.
Here's a better idea. If a product is liable to be stolen, just keep it locked up and require the clerk to get it for you at checkout. It's probably less work for the clerk to do that than fiddle with this new system and it would require much less error-prone technology or cooperation from manufacturers. Most stores figured this out decades ago.
Here's a better idea. If a product is liable to be stolen, just keep it locked up and require the clerk to get it for you at checkout. It's probably less work for the clerk to do that than fiddle with this new system and it would require much less error-prone technology or cooperation from manufacturers. Most stores figured this out decades ago.
i liked what office (depot|max) did... one demo item on display to explorer. if you're ready to purchase there is a slip you take to the counter and the cashier pulls the item for you.
fry's electronic / cosco has people at the door searching every customer and checking their documentation. i believe you can tell them to fuk off. "can i see your receipt?" "no" lol.
fry's electronic / cosco has people at the door searching every customer and checking their documentation. i believe you can tell them to fuk off. "can i see your receipt?" "no" lol.
Yeah. What a Bullshit. What is the next thing? They change policy and charge USD 1 per hole if you drill more then three per day? Thanks I pass.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26466515
“The door refused to open. It said, “Five cents, please.” He searched his pockets. No more coins; nothing. “I’ll pay you tomorrow,” he told the door. Again he tried the knob. Again it remained locked tight. “What I pay you,” he informed it, “is in the nature of a gratuity; I don’t have to pay you.” “I think otherwise,” the door said. “Look in the purchase contract you signed when you bought this conapt.” In his desk drawer he found the contract; since signing it he had found it necessary to refer to the document many times. Sure enough; payment to his door for opening and shutting constituted a mandatory fee. Not a tip. “You discover I’m right,” the door said. It sounded smug. From the drawer beside the sink Joe Chip got a stainless steel knife; with it he began systematically to unscrew the bolt assembly of his apt’s money-gulping door. “I’ll sue you,” the door said as the first screw fell out. Joe Chip said, “I’ve never been sued by a door. But I guess I can live through it.”
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26466515
“The door refused to open. It said, “Five cents, please.” He searched his pockets. No more coins; nothing. “I’ll pay you tomorrow,” he told the door. Again he tried the knob. Again it remained locked tight. “What I pay you,” he informed it, “is in the nature of a gratuity; I don’t have to pay you.” “I think otherwise,” the door said. “Look in the purchase contract you signed when you bought this conapt.” In his desk drawer he found the contract; since signing it he had found it necessary to refer to the document many times. Sure enough; payment to his door for opening and shutting constituted a mandatory fee. Not a tip. “You discover I’m right,” the door said. It sounded smug. From the drawer beside the sink Joe Chip got a stainless steel knife; with it he began systematically to unscrew the bolt assembly of his apt’s money-gulping door. “I’ll sue you,” the door said as the first screw fell out. Joe Chip said, “I’ve never been sued by a door. But I guess I can live through it.”
Problem is that BT components are somewhat more fragile than a drill motor. If the BT component fails, is the tool not working anymore?
They say this is to fight organized crime. I am pretty sure organized criminal know how to bypass a BT security feature...
They say this is to fight organized crime. I am pretty sure organized criminal know how to bypass a BT security feature...
Anyone else expect in 10 years we have subscription tools… they only work and they get software updates but only if you pay…. The model is simple, no upfront cost to get access to any tool. Just pay a monthly subscription fee…
I'm eagerly awaiting social pushback on the spreading cancer of SaaS everything.
It won't happen. We're indoctrinating the young early with Spotify, Netflix, etc. It'll just be normal to pay the electricity bill, the music/movies bill, the Internet bill, the tool bill, etc.
I wouldn't mind that if I could have access to a large array of tools that I just return to my local hardware store when I'm done with them. Most of the time, I'm not using them and I only live 15 minutes walk from my nearest Screwfix and Toolstation.
If I could pay say £5/month and get access to any tool even for just a few days a month that would probably be worth it for me.
If I could pay say £5/month and get access to any tool even for just a few days a month that would probably be worth it for me.
Yeah I agree
> “organized retail crime” cost retailers $719,548 per $1 billion dollars in revenue.
So less then 1%. With all the extra inconvenience they put on paying customers to combat this, I thought this was a much bigger issue.
So less then 1%. With all the extra inconvenience they put on paying customers to combat this, I thought this was a much bigger issue.
Home depot has an 11% profit margin. It's not a Google (30% profit margin) or an Apple (26.7%) that prints money. So it cuts into 9% of profits, which is pretty significant.
~$3 million out of ~$4 billion profit just in the first quarter of 2021 is still not worth this.
It is per 1 billion in revenue or 95 million per year.
A huge fraction of that 1% is probably concentrated in a few locales that have some nonstandard law enforcement policies enable repetitive shop lifting to be a viable source of income for the low level people in the scheme that actually take the stuff so while it may be a small percentage overall it likely makes a large impact on the viability of the many stores in those areas.
Their power tools are probably an outsize contributor to their overall profit margin so if there's something they really don't want being stolen it's those.
Their power tools are probably an outsize contributor to their overall profit margin so if there's something they really don't want being stolen it's those.
So California
One wonders if "plans to" is simply "plans to?" It would be really cheap to just sponsor this article and then just not do it; like putting the alarm system stickers on your house, but not actually getting the system...
Without the (old) extra inconvenience, it would probably be higher than 1%. Also, it could be that this mechanism substitutes for some of the previous anti-theft measures, so it's hard to use the $719,548 figure to conclude anything about whether this would be cost effective.
Margins can be low in some kinds of retail. Not sure how it stacks up for Home Depot
Now just imagine a foreign power being able to brick all power tools and blame it on a rogue hacker group.
But at least the stores didn't get tools stolen, didn't need to pay more for insurance, and could pocket the profits.
But at least the stores didn't get tools stolen, didn't need to pay more for insurance, and could pocket the profits.
How is this gonna stop theft? I have a lot of power tools from Home Depot (ryobi) and I take them apart all the time to fix them. Power tools are relatively simple in design. A Bluetooth anti theft system last as long as it takes to open the tools and remove the anti theft and re-solder the parts back.
My dad was a long time construction worker and there’ve been many anti theft devices in power tool. None of them work and are circumvented in minutes if you know why you’re doing.
This is the dumbest stunt I’ve seen a company take; this isn’t anti theft, it’s anti consumer.
My dad was a long time construction worker and there’ve been many anti theft devices in power tool. None of them work and are circumvented in minutes if you know why you’re doing.
This is the dumbest stunt I’ve seen a company take; this isn’t anti theft, it’s anti consumer.
How is it anti-consumer? If you paid for the tool and it works, what difference does it make? It won't stop all theft but is just an extra deterrent that does not involve having to lockup the tool.s
Have you used a lot of power tools? Because power tools get beat up and every anti theft mechanism I’ve experienced becomes the weak point of tools. Back in the late 90s Milwaukee started putting key locks in the saws. My dad constantly have his saws “repaired” cause the lock would slide closed and be unable to function, he started taking them apart and removing the mechanism. That’s anti consumer. If it will be the reason your tool stops working, it’s anti consumer. If the lock ever turns on when you don’t want it to, it’s anti consumer.
Also, Home Depot calls out on their repair site that they do not repair Bluetooth enabled devices, that’s anti consumer.
Also, Home Depot calls out on their repair site that they do not repair Bluetooth enabled devices, that’s anti consumer.
If the lock is effective, then you are definitely going to have cases where a paying customer receives a tool that is locked or re-locked itself.
The organized groups on the other hand now just have a slight inconvenience (at worst, until they reverse engineer the electronic locking) where they have to open and bypass the lock before they re-sell the tool. Power tools aren't complex enough to be able to make them impossible to bypass without the theft still being profitable.
The organized groups on the other hand now just have a slight inconvenience (at worst, until they reverse engineer the electronic locking) where they have to open and bypass the lock before they re-sell the tool. Power tools aren't complex enough to be able to make them impossible to bypass without the theft still being profitable.
If the anti-theft device is integrated into the brushless motor controller, it could require some serious reverse-engineering skills to bypass.
That is going to be the single biggest point of failure. This is going to sky rocket tool costs and require specialized equipment to diagnose and repair. They’re are not integrating it in the motor. They will get sued big time for faulty motor failures.
>>...the company's fight against organized retail crime. He made a point to distinguish between "professional shoplifters" and disorganized solo thieves. The pros, he said, frequently are connected to a larger network that can, in some cases, function as a sophisticated "shadow business."
OK, so they're fighting pros with bluetooth-enabling the tools at checkout. What could go wrong?
The amateurs will certainly be foiled, while the pros will pay crackers to build a work-around.
Meanwhile, the enabling device will become another point of failure in the product and will cause more warranty claims and dissatisfaction - and there's nothing quite as annoying as being in the middle of a job and having a tool breakdown, especially a newer one that is expected to work for years.
Would also be likely that they'll have miscellaneous connection failures while trying to enable the tool at checkout, e.g., just from EM interference in random locations; that'll make for happy customers...
Sure, it is a serious problem, but I'm not sure this is a good solution.
OK, so they're fighting pros with bluetooth-enabling the tools at checkout. What could go wrong?
The amateurs will certainly be foiled, while the pros will pay crackers to build a work-around.
Meanwhile, the enabling device will become another point of failure in the product and will cause more warranty claims and dissatisfaction - and there's nothing quite as annoying as being in the middle of a job and having a tool breakdown, especially a newer one that is expected to work for years.
Would also be likely that they'll have miscellaneous connection failures while trying to enable the tool at checkout, e.g., just from EM interference in random locations; that'll make for happy customers...
Sure, it is a serious problem, but I'm not sure this is a good solution.
I started shopping pretty regularly at Home Depot after buying a house about eight years ago. I used to be surprised after paying when the alarm sounded as I walked out the door. I would stop and turn around, and usually a cashier would wave and say "you're okay!"... or just wave impatiently... or there would be no cashiers. It got to the point where I had a little bit of dread every time I walked out the door ("Is it going to go off this time?")... It is somewhat embarrassing to have other customers look at you like you must've just stolen something.
After a few years of this, I noticed the cashiers don't even look at the door anymore when the alarm goes off. I've never seen a security person at Home Depot.
I'm more likely to buy tools and parts online now. Home Depot has become the last resort unless I need something immediately, or need raw building supplies. Because I don't want to feel like a criminal moments after paying for what I'm carrying.
After a few years of this, I noticed the cashiers don't even look at the door anymore when the alarm goes off. I've never seen a security person at Home Depot.
I'm more likely to buy tools and parts online now. Home Depot has become the last resort unless I need something immediately, or need raw building supplies. Because I don't want to feel like a criminal moments after paying for what I'm carrying.
Next stop:
* You need to use the same technology to activiate premium features via a subscription
* You cannot resell them
etc etc
* You need to use the same technology to activiate premium features via a subscription
* You cannot resell them
etc etc
I've got two complaints here as a legitimate and frequent consumer:
1) They already chain down all the tools and/or keep them boxed without store displays such that it is very difficult to evaluate tools you might wish to purchase. You can't even pick them up to get a feeling for the weight. Many of the more robust tools (table saws, drill presses, etc) they don't keep in stock either.
2) So many of the accidental thefts in the comments are due to self-scanning. Well - why were consumers forced to self-checkout in the first place? Because HD never has enough checkers, their checkout areas are poorly designed for the kinds of bulk items being purchased, and basically HD is being cheap and wants to lower their costs by putting the burden back on the consumer. Sure, I do my best to scan accurately and ethically, but I can completely see how this happens and it is difficult to blame the consumer when HD has deliberately funnel you into self-checkout.
1) They already chain down all the tools and/or keep them boxed without store displays such that it is very difficult to evaluate tools you might wish to purchase. You can't even pick them up to get a feeling for the weight. Many of the more robust tools (table saws, drill presses, etc) they don't keep in stock either.
2) So many of the accidental thefts in the comments are due to self-scanning. Well - why were consumers forced to self-checkout in the first place? Because HD never has enough checkers, their checkout areas are poorly designed for the kinds of bulk items being purchased, and basically HD is being cheap and wants to lower their costs by putting the burden back on the consumer. Sure, I do my best to scan accurately and ethically, but I can completely see how this happens and it is difficult to blame the consumer when HD has deliberately funnel you into self-checkout.
I read your comment without reading the article, then I read the article. I am sad :/
While it would make sense for loss prevention at the store, it would make more sense if this feature was extended to the end user.
While it would make sense for loss prevention at the store, it would make more sense if this feature was extended to the end user.
[deleted]
If this is organized as they say, it'll be broken in a week. Change the checkout process. Customers can bring a little box under the display, and a tool cashier brings out the actual tool. Or, when purchased at the front you get an electronic ID for each tool you then go back and redeem with an employee at the tool isle.
Alternative headline: Home Depot discovers a way to introduce power tools that can fail due to software bugs.
I honestly see this as the 'things to come' - and sort of impressed that these technologies/ideas haven't been used sooner.
With that said, I too think that it would be a HUGE gain for all if ownership / control could be transferred. However, most people cannot properly control stuff they dearly care for, and could see this becoming a HUGE headache for the stores to manage after the sale.
Perhaps an after purchase website that you register your info and products ( maybe connecting said devices to your phone(s) or other BLE devices .) The big issue is, you're on the job - forgot your phone/etc...and can't drill a hole. Although, most people would be more likely to forget their shoes than their phone.
With that said, I too think that it would be a HUGE gain for all if ownership / control could be transferred. However, most people cannot properly control stuff they dearly care for, and could see this becoming a HUGE headache for the stores to manage after the sale.
Perhaps an after purchase website that you register your info and products ( maybe connecting said devices to your phone(s) or other BLE devices .) The big issue is, you're on the job - forgot your phone/etc...and can't drill a hole. Although, most people would be more likely to forget their shoes than their phone.
Of note in the article: "There are very organized groups where the leaders at the top are recruiting people that are drug-dependent, homeless, or down on their luck and offering them incentives and providing shopping lists to go out and bring back certain products"
In the broader context, attempting to thwart shoplifting directly is essentially treating the symptom rather than the disease. This is not caused by homeowners looking to save a buck on tools for yard work. It's organized crime taking advantage of vulnerable people.
Social programs to help remove this source of cheap/willing labor combined with thorough investigation-based law enforcement is a better solution than theft resistant tools.
In the broader context, attempting to thwart shoplifting directly is essentially treating the symptom rather than the disease. This is not caused by homeowners looking to save a buck on tools for yard work. It's organized crime taking advantage of vulnerable people.
Social programs to help remove this source of cheap/willing labor combined with thorough investigation-based law enforcement is a better solution than theft resistant tools.
> Organized retail crime costs retailers an average of $719,548 per $1 billion in sales, a 2020 survey from the National Retail Federation found — a nearly 60% increase from 2015.
Interesting way of saying < .1% Bullshit that the tool manufacturers are going to install bluetooth tech in every device for purely on/off purchases. They are going to track the shit out of that tool, mark my words. Also, it will fail on occasion, likely more than .1% of the time. If they don't want to effect 99.9% of the legit purchasers, they wouldn't be putting this power consuming device tracker in 100% of devices.
Interesting way of saying < .1% Bullshit that the tool manufacturers are going to install bluetooth tech in every device for purely on/off purchases. They are going to track the shit out of that tool, mark my words. Also, it will fail on occasion, likely more than .1% of the time. If they don't want to effect 99.9% of the legit purchasers, they wouldn't be putting this power consuming device tracker in 100% of devices.
Home Depot could solve this problem really easily by having more than two people working in a store at a given time.. It's a pretty simple solution. Every single person I know has stolen something small (like a box of screws) from home depot in the last few years because they got tired of trying to find someone to check out with and said fuck it and walked out. Theres other examples of that same forced to steal because theres no way to pay in this thread, and all over the internet. HD has incompetent top down leadership. Fire your C Suite.
If you're upset with the service a place provides, the rational response isn't to shoplift, it's to find a different place that offers the same service..
fuck that. Then you try to sell it and the godman thing stop stop working. I don't want DRM in my power drill.
Or lose access to it because google canceled your account for some reason.
You have remote kill and upgrade in your mobile phone, did you get rid of your phone?
You can disable it, and anyway a phone is a different sort of product. It's a computer product with a local interface (making this stuff easy to administrate) and is usually a lot more costly.
I think what the parent is expressing is that they don't want this kind of functionality in everything, requiring constant management of all the DRM in all kinds of everyday items. Too much of a hassle for little benefit.
I think what the parent is expressing is that they don't want this kind of functionality in everything, requiring constant management of all the DRM in all kinds of everyday items. Too much of a hassle for little benefit.
This is the same Home Depot that had its PoS terminals compromised ? https://www.sans.org/white-papers/36367/ These people? https://threatpost.com/home-depot-data-breach-order-confirma... OK. Maybe trying something to reduce shrinkage is good -- AFTER hardening the back end.
> He made a point to distinguish between "professional shoplifters" and disorganized solo thieves. The pros, he said, frequently are connected to a larger network that can, in some cases, function as a sophisticated "shadow business."
This is the aspect of “defund the police” that people don’t seem to understand. Police can’t stop every, or even most, solo criminals. But that’s not the only purpose of police. Where the police monopoly on violence is weak, organized crime springs up and turns shoplifting, robbery, etc., into a business.
This is the aspect of “defund the police” that people don’t seem to understand. Police can’t stop every, or even most, solo criminals. But that’s not the only purpose of police. Where the police monopoly on violence is weak, organized crime springs up and turns shoplifting, robbery, etc., into a business.
Isn't the point that by defunding the police that they'd be relegated to spending the resources they have on the functions they're actually trained to do, like the one you mentioned?
Pretty much. Even outright police abolition doesn't propose simply shrugging our shoulders and ignoring crime, for that matter, just that we should figure out how to address crime with institutions whose central paradigm isn't threatening and committing violence. That's a tall order, and I gather there's plenty to criticize in the movement, but most arguments against it come across more like arguments against Thanos snapping all police officers out of existence.
This is pretty hand-wavey, isn't it? If outright abolition doesn't propose shrugging our shoulders and ignoring crime, what does it propose? That we address it from root causes by restructuring the economy to correct the injustices that lead to crime?
I'm not deeply familiar with the arguments, but it does seem to be pretty hand-wavey at this point, apart from the criticisms of the existing paradigm. But it's generally worth keeping in mind that there was a time when the case for the status quo was similarly hand-wavey. There was a time before modern policing, and it's not inherently silly to think that there could be a time after it.
Thinking about stuff is fine, but crime is a real problem, not an abstract one, and we have empirical data to show that pulling back on police patrol presence increases it. One of the reasons nobody takes "Defund" seriously is that it punts on the hard problem: reduce officer headcount --- and then what?
This gets batted back and forth where I live quite a bit, and the answer always seems to be "and then we staff up community mental health response people". But crime where I live is overwhelmingly not related to mental health response! You can't send a mental health response person out to respond to an armed carjacking.
This gets batted back and forth where I live quite a bit, and the answer always seems to be "and then we staff up community mental health response people". But crime where I live is overwhelmingly not related to mental health response! You can't send a mental health response person out to respond to an armed carjacking.
I understand that criticism but I also have to say that in my personal experience, not having police available seems like it would hardly make a difference in my life. I have many instances where I have personally needed police because my life was in immediate danger and not once did I receive any help.
In fact, in one specific instance the police officer in question forgot to hang up the phone and on the other side of the line I could hear them make fun of my request to a coworker. I'm not too versed on political science unfortunately, but I would be lying if I said I have any attachment to the concept of policing, because it has clearly failed me and the people I know.
Edit: Of course, this isn't to say that my experience reflects everyone's. I'm just giving you some input on why people feel this way towards the police, in case it matters.
In fact, in one specific instance the police officer in question forgot to hang up the phone and on the other side of the line I could hear them make fun of my request to a coworker. I'm not too versed on political science unfortunately, but I would be lying if I said I have any attachment to the concept of policing, because it has clearly failed me and the people I know.
Edit: Of course, this isn't to say that my experience reflects everyone's. I'm just giving you some input on why people feel this way towards the police, in case it matters.
A few years ago I got mugged on my block in Oak Park (which is across the street from the Austin neighborhood of Chicago). They took my phone, $12, and then ran when I wouldn't give them my bag. I called the police, and in less then 10 minutes the muggers were in custody (I like to say they stole $12 from me and a device that tracked them from space).
We can do dueling anecdotes, but the underlying question here is well studied. Increased police patrol presence reduces crime.
We can do dueling anecdotes, but the underlying question here is well studied. Increased police patrol presence reduces crime.
Most tools are motor and batteries and small control board. They don't have much to drm. So probably it will be trivial to solder something that is able to control the stolen merch good enough.
Fuck Home Depot. First they killed off all the mom-and-pop hardware local stores. Now we shop there because that’s usually the only choice. Are we supposed to feel sorry for them? It’s bad enough that they’ve turned me into their employee with their self-checkout system.
Someone at HD made the calculation that by not employing as many cashiers, the personnel savings will be profitable even in the face of shoplifting. But now, they are just putting another burden on their customers and vendors.
Someone at HD made the calculation that by not employing as many cashiers, the personnel savings will be profitable even in the face of shoplifting. But now, they are just putting another burden on their customers and vendors.
And there I thought it was Home Depot selling tools that are protected from being stolen at the worksite, a much bigger problem that theft from stores themselves.
Well, that’s dystopian!
If they’re going to all that effort, allow the end user to lock and unlock the friggin tools too!
I’d happily pay more if I could bluetooth tether my power tools to a few cell phones.
Tool theft is a huge problem for contractors and home owners, and this would put a huge damper on it. I guess reducing theft after it leaves the store would interfere with planned obsolescence.
If they’re going to all that effort, allow the end user to lock and unlock the friggin tools too!
I’d happily pay more if I could bluetooth tether my power tools to a few cell phones.
Tool theft is a huge problem for contractors and home owners, and this would put a huge damper on it. I guess reducing theft after it leaves the store would interfere with planned obsolescence.
Riiiiiiiiiight.
So, we're talking about organised criminals here? Primarily, anyway?
They steal power tools because they figure they can make a lot of money out of them, and there's clearly a substantial market for stolen power tools if that's the case. It matters not one whit if the goofballs who steal the tools on their behalf are able to make them work or not.
Do you honestly think they're not going to be able to figure this stuff out and easily inactivate the Bluetooth lockout?
All you're going to end up doing is passing the cost of this theatre on to legitimate consumers which, perversely, will increase the appeal of buying stolen tools at a discount. Bravo.
Why not use the tagging mechanism you probably already have for high value items and which won't require any additional costs/new technology?
This has nothing to do with customer experience, or even with reducing revenue lost to shoplifting, and everything to do with some tech/IT guy's wet dream about control and power.
(Cynically, I wonder if this also provides a route to killing the secondary market for power tools, forcing people to buy new. It's a long play but it's exactly the kind of thing I can imagine them doing, especially with people like Sonos having tried to brick speakers to prevent them being resold.)
So, we're talking about organised criminals here? Primarily, anyway?
They steal power tools because they figure they can make a lot of money out of them, and there's clearly a substantial market for stolen power tools if that's the case. It matters not one whit if the goofballs who steal the tools on their behalf are able to make them work or not.
Do you honestly think they're not going to be able to figure this stuff out and easily inactivate the Bluetooth lockout?
All you're going to end up doing is passing the cost of this theatre on to legitimate consumers which, perversely, will increase the appeal of buying stolen tools at a discount. Bravo.
Why not use the tagging mechanism you probably already have for high value items and which won't require any additional costs/new technology?
This has nothing to do with customer experience, or even with reducing revenue lost to shoplifting, and everything to do with some tech/IT guy's wet dream about control and power.
(Cynically, I wonder if this also provides a route to killing the secondary market for power tools, forcing people to buy new. It's a long play but it's exactly the kind of thing I can imagine them doing, especially with people like Sonos having tried to brick speakers to prevent them being resold.)
“Organized retail crime costs retailers an average of $719,548 per $1 billion in sales”
Seems like a lot of work for 0.07%
That's because you're calculating the percentage wrong.
The relevant percentage isn't against sales but against profits. Home Depot has a profit margin of around 10%, so it would be $719,548 against $100M in profit, or 0.7%.
If you can increase profits by nearly a full percentage point that's huge. That's how companies grow, after all -- a percent here, a percent there, and all these little things are what make the stock price grow.
Sure it's a "lot of work". That's what companies do. If it were easy we'd all be billionaires.
The relevant percentage isn't against sales but against profits. Home Depot has a profit margin of around 10%, so it would be $719,548 against $100M in profit, or 0.7%.
If you can increase profits by nearly a full percentage point that's huge. That's how companies grow, after all -- a percent here, a percent there, and all these little things are what make the stock price grow.
Sure it's a "lot of work". That's what companies do. If it were easy we'd all be billionaires.
So you're claiming they just like upsetting customers and spending money to stop theft for the hell of it? I suppose we should trust some rando on hackernews over the people running the business. Yeah.... hmmmmm
> The trade publication Loss Prevention Media defines organized retail crime as "any organized criminal, conspiratorial attack on the retail establishment"
Meanwhile, the real world defines organized crime as: criminal activities that are planned and controlled by powerful groups and carried out on a large scale.
Meanwhile, the real world defines organized crime as: criminal activities that are planned and controlled by powerful groups and carried out on a large scale.
Going to Home Depot in some places is to be treated like a thief. When you use the self check out they have a camera looking right at you and they show you looking at you, and they have the cameras in the departments that beep, and it’s just that much on the side of annoying.
I imagine in the near future some security company leveraging amazon's "No checkout" grocery store AI camera system to watch for theft.
You won't be arrested but you'll get blacklisted on a shared database across dozens of retailers.
The future is going to be weird.
You won't be arrested but you'll get blacklisted on a shared database across dozens of retailers.
The future is going to be weird.
Good to see Glowforge’s pioneering work is starting to have an industry-wide effect. /s
If the tools can be activate by Bluetooth, seems like they might be deactivated that way as well (especially if it was returned).
Given typical IoT security, it would be interesting to see how that ends up working out for them.
Given typical IoT security, it would be interesting to see how that ends up working out for them.
Reminds me of video games/movies where guns/other weapons only work for the enemies or whatever because they have an NFC or something that validates them as being allowed to fire the weapon.
I think power tool theft goes beyond retail. If they could use the same Bluetooth tech so it's associated to the owner, it would prevent a lot of jobsite theft and theft from contractor vehicles.
The organized crime groups could not make it happen at scale without a few dirty managers. Don’t let Home Depot fool you here: most of their shrinkage is from the inside.
I was hoping we’re that far in the future that the tools would scan your DNA by drawing blood every time you pick them up. Or at least have a fingerprint sensor.
How is this realistic to implement though? Unless it is done in the motor itself, I have to believe someone will have a hack for it very soon.
[deleted]
Given how easy it was to breach their POS system, something tells me the private key that activates them is going to get stolen real fast.
This is the worst way to make money. Yeah, I'll risk many years in jail to steal $500 of crap that I can only pawn off for $100.
Any technical details on this? It better be like a dye-pak on a shirt I'm buying, and not like a John Deere tractor.
Next natural step would be to sell the tools for a lower cost than the competitor and start charging for hours of use.
ok, so someone can't simply crack them open, take off the "smart controller" and install one of those adjustable speed control from china ? I doubt this is something (eg like firmware) embedded on the motor.
They are preparing for Screwdriver as a service.
Sounds like they're creating a lot of waste.
yea i dont need remote internet connected power tool that needs to call home to work. fuck these guys.
Good. Now do it for guns.
Dark and stormy night in Pacific Northwest. I've finished a long day at work and am heading to meet family at the cabin in the woods. I get a text: "There is a mouse. Buy traps before you come." So I pull off the highway and hit a suburban Home Depo. I grab a wide selection of anti-mouse devices and potions. I try to buy my items but, in a deserted store, none of the cashiers are manned. The "manager" points me to the self-checkout. Ugh. My packing-wrapped packs of mouse traps wont scan. Manager "helps" but then turns it over to me to type in the numbers. With the manager watching I pay, bag my stuff, and leave.
In the parking lot I spread my assortment of mouse-killing paraphernalia on the passenger seat and sent a photo to the family at the cabin. Then I notice my mistake. I paid for two 2-packs of rat traps when in fact I had taken two 4-packs. Do I go back and correct this crime? Do I talk to that useless "manager" and spend an hour struggling to undo my mistake via the self-checkout? Do I risk missing the last ferry? I got into my car and drove on into the night. I am a shoplifter.