You don't ever own an electric vehicle(reviewgeek.com)
reviewgeek.com
You don't ever own an electric vehicle
https://www.reviewgeek.com/111381/you-dont-really-ever-own-an-ev/
420 comments
You're intentionally leaving out the fact that a greater and greater number of manufacturer/OEMs are making necessary tools to properly debug proprietary and locked behind contracts. Or, you have a newer car and haven't had to diagnose yet a myriad of growing issues that you can't check in any way shape or form.
Want to link into any car in the last 5 years can-bus for anything beyond simple air-fuel mixture issues? You can't. You can't even reliably go to a mechanic down the road, as they don't carry the 500k a year license from GM for the proprietary OBD2 scanner.
This problem is 10 fold with electric cars, and 100 fold with Tesla or boutique EV manus.
Want to link into any car in the last 5 years can-bus for anything beyond simple air-fuel mixture issues? You can't. You can't even reliably go to a mechanic down the road, as they don't carry the 500k a year license from GM for the proprietary OBD2 scanner.
This problem is 10 fold with electric cars, and 100 fold with Tesla or boutique EV manus.
Also, the info that is exposed to end-users is awful and seems to be getting worse. We have a 2021 Volvo and it has TPMS, but the TPMS info screen on the large infotainment display shows /4 orange dots, one on each tire/ when the pressure in ANY is too low. It doesn’t tell you the actual pressures, or what they should be, just that it needs maintenance. My other 2017 Chevy tells me the ~real-time (takes a few seconds to change) pressures of all 4 tires. I know that the Volvo has this info, and a screen more than capable of displaying that info, yet someone chose instead to treat the user like an absolutely helpless idiot and basically suggest that they should stop using the vehicle immediately and have it flatbed trailered to the nearest dealership /because a single tire is a few PSI low/.
I understand having idiot lights for idiots, and sure, do that on the dash, but please give end users any way to get some actual info. It’s the “door ajar” when the vehicle knows which door but doesn’t disambiguate to the user. It’s bad design, or malicious design to boost dealer profits.
I understand having idiot lights for idiots, and sure, do that on the dash, but please give end users any way to get some actual info. It’s the “door ajar” when the vehicle knows which door but doesn’t disambiguate to the user. It’s bad design, or malicious design to boost dealer profits.
To elaborate a bit on what someone else said -- some cars with TPMS systems do not have pressure sensors at all. It is possible to add TMPS to a vehicle entirely via software by analyzing other data from existing sensors. For example, it might be looking at sensor data that looks like:
Steering angle: 0 degrees
LF wheel speed: 305 rpm
RF wheel speed: 293 rpm
LR wheel speed: 302 rpm
RR wheel speed: 285 rpm
In this case, it may be possible for the car to determine that you probably have some incorrect pressures, but it may not know exactly which tire(s) is/are wrong. Nor does it know what the pressures are.
Steering angle: 0 degrees
LF wheel speed: 305 rpm
RF wheel speed: 293 rpm
LR wheel speed: 302 rpm
RR wheel speed: 285 rpm
In this case, it may be possible for the car to determine that you probably have some incorrect pressures, but it may not know exactly which tire(s) is/are wrong. Nor does it know what the pressures are.
F-150 does it with perfection using circumference alone. It does the exact thing you said cannot be done. I have verified it myself.
It also perfectly calculates distance to empty in miles/kilometers.
It also perfectly calculates distance to empty in miles/kilometers.
The F150 uses direct TPMS sensors. It doesn't need to measure wheel speed to determine pressure, because it has pressure sensors inside of the tires.
2021-2023: https://parts.ford.com/shop/en/us/electrical/other-electrica...
2015-2020: https://parts.ford.com/shop/en/us/electrical/other-electrica...
2013-2014: https://parts.ford.com/shop/en/us/electrical/other-electrica...
2021-2023: https://parts.ford.com/shop/en/us/electrical/other-electrica...
2015-2020: https://parts.ford.com/shop/en/us/electrical/other-electrica...
2013-2014: https://parts.ford.com/shop/en/us/electrical/other-electrica...
It's true that it won't know the exact pressures, but it certainly knows which tire is spinning faster than all the others (due to the lower pressure, it has shrunk) so it could definitely tell you to check that one.
In fact, your example looks more like one overinflated (or perhaps overheated) tire --- RR.
In fact, your example looks more like one overinflated (or perhaps overheated) tire --- RR.
You seem to contradict yourself in this post. You say they can tell one is spinning faster than all the others, however this one could also easily be the one inflated to the correct pressure, while the other three are overinflated. If the Volvo tells you to correct it and it is wrong, it could keep telling you to overinflate tires indefinitely. This could be why they don’t, which was OP’s original point.
When you inflate them you press the “set” button so it knows what the base is. If one suddenly starts geting more angular velocity constantly than it’s likely it lost air
Yes, if one decreases relative to the other, it’s easy to figure out that one changed.
You still don’t know for sure that it needs inflated, because:
1. setting tire pressures incorrectly is not uncommon
2. That button is user accessible and might be pressed inadvertently or by someone who didn’t set the tires correctly
3. If all tires change in pressure at the same time, it would be undetectable
This is why these systems generally tell you to “check” your tires, rather than inflate a specific one. If they made that assumption, your car could be telling you to inflate an already overinflated tire.
You still don’t know for sure that it needs inflated, because:
1. setting tire pressures incorrectly is not uncommon
2. That button is user accessible and might be pressed inadvertently or by someone who didn’t set the tires correctly
3. If all tires change in pressure at the same time, it would be undetectable
This is why these systems generally tell you to “check” your tires, rather than inflate a specific one. If they made that assumption, your car could be telling you to inflate an already overinflated tire.
1. Just check the tires.
2. Read the manual
3. Not sure about every implementation but it still possible to tell by storing wheel rpm associated with engine rpm, gear and steering angle the first few miles after setting it.
There are many cars with tpms in the wheel that still won’t tell you what wheel it is or what’s the pressure, so I still much rather have no sensor to deal with trading the “inconvenience” of checking the tires once the light comes on, which is what you would do anyway.
There are many cars with tpms in the wheel that still won’t tell you what wheel it is or what’s the pressure, so I still much rather have no sensor to deal with trading the “inconvenience” of checking the tires once the light comes on, which is what you would do anyway.
I think you’re misunderstanding me. I’m not complaining about the functionality. I think it is good functionality, and I personally prefer iTPMS.
I was explaining why the engineering of the system dictates the information that the interface provides.
I was explaining why the engineering of the system dictates the information that the interface provides.
[deleted]
And I much prefer this system every time I have to change a tire so not to play the gamble of “will my tpms die before the next change?”. And even if you change them, the chances of an aftermarket one dying and having to deal with that.
I don’t care what pressures the tires have as long as they are good. If I stop to inflate one, I check all of them anyway, with a real gauge. But that’s just me, I know.
I don’t care what pressures the tires have as long as they are good. If I stop to inflate one, I check all of them anyway, with a real gauge. But that’s just me, I know.
Unless they are doing some serious wizardry, cars don't know which tire is which. Telling the tires apart was never one of the goals of the TPMS standards.
The transponder in each tire just shouts out its serial number and pressure on 315mhz and then sleeps for a random amount of time. The car counts how many times it has heard the various serial numbers, and assumes the top four most frequently heard serial numbers are its own tires (as opposed to those on the car next to it).
It is sort of stupidly easy to gather location data from TPMS sensors. If I ran a major criminal gang I'd track the cop cars this way. 315mhz is almost VHF, it goes a long way. One receiver per city block should do it. Covering your turf would be easy.
The transponder in each tire just shouts out its serial number and pressure on 315mhz and then sleeps for a random amount of time. The car counts how many times it has heard the various serial numbers, and assumes the top four most frequently heard serial numbers are its own tires (as opposed to those on the car next to it).
It is sort of stupidly easy to gather location data from TPMS sensors. If I ran a major criminal gang I'd track the cop cars this way. 315mhz is almost VHF, it goes a long way. One receiver per city block should do it. Covering your turf would be easy.
Ok, first off - a lot of cars do know which tire is which. Most do it by associating certain TPMS IDs with certain tires. This is what the technician is setting when he does a TPMS re-learn (or reset) after rotating your tires.
Other vehicles actually know which is which without being told. I'm not sure exactly how this is done, but I'm guessing/vaguely recall hearing they do this by using multiple receivers.
As for tracking from a distance - these sensors have very low output power, and a lot of their signal is blocked by the metal wheel. It can somewhat be done but you'll need more than one receiver per block if you want 100% coverage.
Sources: worked as a tire shop technician for a while, messed around with SDR, read a lot online. Also: https://web.wpi.edu/Pubs/E-project/Available/E-project-09111...
Other vehicles actually know which is which without being told. I'm not sure exactly how this is done, but I'm guessing/vaguely recall hearing they do this by using multiple receivers.
As for tracking from a distance - these sensors have very low output power, and a lot of their signal is blocked by the metal wheel. It can somewhat be done but you'll need more than one receiver per block if you want 100% coverage.
Sources: worked as a tire shop technician for a while, messed around with SDR, read a lot online. Also: https://web.wpi.edu/Pubs/E-project/Available/E-project-09111...
>gather location data from TPMS sensors.
That's one of the revelations from Snowden files. Us govt does this!
That's one of the revelations from Snowden files. Us govt does this!
Source? I heard of this trick from Schneier, but I have not seen any documents saying the US government is using it. In my experience, 90% of the things people say were in Snowden's documents weren't, so I'm skeptical. https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/04/tracking_vehi...
it's been a while but check back in a few days. if i can find it again i'll post it here.
The Volvo is using an iTPMS system, which does not have absolute PSI measurements.
My Audi does this too. And despite the salesman’s insistence that it’s actually better this way, it still bugs me.
Genuine question: What about if you rotate the tires? (do people still do that?) You would have to reset the data and tell it what tire is where, or it would need 4 antennae for each wheel.
Incidentally, every aftermarket TPMS does show all 4 pressures too. Some will even monitor the spare as well.
The "check engine" light used to feel like a frustrating but economical decision. Modern cars have multiple full color displays now with computers that have all the information they need to at least display fault codes and still just give you "check engine" style warnings.
It's always been this way.
It's always been this way.
There are lots of vehicles that can display fault codes and other diagnostic information directly through the gauge cluster. Usually they’re hidden in a secret menu. Search “read codes without scanner” on YouTube and you’ll see a ton of examples.
> and 100 fold with Tesla
Uhhh, except I have an OBD-II adapter in mine[0] and combined with an Android app[1] can see in detail basically everything about the car, including individual battery voltages inside the cell pack?
[0]: https://www.scanmytesla.com/adapters
[1]: https://www.scanmytesla.com/
Uhhh, except I have an OBD-II adapter in mine[0] and combined with an Android app[1] can see in detail basically everything about the car, including individual battery voltages inside the cell pack?
[0]: https://www.scanmytesla.com/adapters
[1]: https://www.scanmytesla.com/
Ok, Great!
You can now monitor a piece of data you have no means whatsoever to adress outside of the tesla ecosystem. which is thrice fold not an issue with "open-er source" ICU vehicles because: 1. no concern for this battery (obvious I guess) 2. you can bring it to the mechanic down the street, 3. You can do it yourself with parts you source with a warranty that the dealer does not care about.
If your battery "starts to go", do you think you can go anywhere besides Tesla, and that they will not first charge you for a diagnostic using their license ODB2 software? Your diagnostic using a non licensed odb2 scanner and....android app will not allow them to bypass the diagnostic you will certainly have to have done by them, because of their insurance/warranty process requiring licensed equipment. ICU manufacturers DO pull the same shit, but you can at least bring the car to a cheaper mechanic who is hopefully footing the bill of the tooling/license.
Say you ARE Able to perform work outside of Tesla, better not tell Tesla that, or your vehicle will be blacklisted.
You can now monitor a piece of data you have no means whatsoever to adress outside of the tesla ecosystem. which is thrice fold not an issue with "open-er source" ICU vehicles because: 1. no concern for this battery (obvious I guess) 2. you can bring it to the mechanic down the street, 3. You can do it yourself with parts you source with a warranty that the dealer does not care about.
If your battery "starts to go", do you think you can go anywhere besides Tesla, and that they will not first charge you for a diagnostic using their license ODB2 software? Your diagnostic using a non licensed odb2 scanner and....android app will not allow them to bypass the diagnostic you will certainly have to have done by them, because of their insurance/warranty process requiring licensed equipment. ICU manufacturers DO pull the same shit, but you can at least bring the car to a cheaper mechanic who is hopefully footing the bill of the tooling/license.
Say you ARE Able to perform work outside of Tesla, better not tell Tesla that, or your vehicle will be blacklisted.
> Want to link into any car in the last 5 years can-bus for anything beyond simple air-fuel mixture issues? You can't.
Huh, I guess I was just imagining it when I plugged into the OBD-II port on my 2020 Ford and reprogrammed a bunch of engine and transmission parameters to improve performance. I certainly didn't have any proprietary Ford software or hardware.
Huh, I guess I was just imagining it when I plugged into the OBD-II port on my 2020 Ford and reprogrammed a bunch of engine and transmission parameters to improve performance. I certainly didn't have any proprietary Ford software or hardware.
Be happy with your Ford. I had a Peugeot that required proprietary cable and software, and that software works only on Windows XP...
Don't see it in your post history, or any related profiles; care to mention or link to what you did, here or offthread? (I'm @shortstuffsushi everywhere) I also own a 2020 Ford and would be potentially interested in this.
Forscan (Ford and Mazda) is a software you could try, assuming you have a cable like that one[1]. The free version is be able to read, reset and run diagnostic but it cannot change the car configuration. The full version can change the car configuration but you can't buy licenses for because it come from Russia.
There are some boutique companies, and even some oems [2] that provide software to retune your engine but I have no experience, nor desire, to do that kind of tinkering.
1-https://www.amazon.com/Scanner-FORScan-Adapter-ELMconfig-Dia...
2- https://www.mazdaserviceinfo.com/pcm-reflashing
There are some boutique companies, and even some oems [2] that provide software to retune your engine but I have no experience, nor desire, to do that kind of tinkering.
1-https://www.amazon.com/Scanner-FORScan-Adapter-ELMconfig-Dia...
2- https://www.mazdaserviceinfo.com/pcm-reflashing
I went through this company: https://www.livernoismotorsports.com/computer-and-tuning
I don't have the expertise to set up all the parameters on my own, but I'm very happy with the tune they provided.
I don't have the expertise to set up all the parameters on my own, but I'm very happy with the tune they provided.
They've reverse engineered everything for you already, and provide firmware that accepts adjustment, and something to install that firmware.
You can't do that with a generic OBD-II compliant tool and Ford's OEM firmware.
You can't do that with a generic OBD-II compliant tool and Ford's OEM firmware.
It is possible for a lot of vehicles, but at the same time there are companies have been trying to make self maintenance and repair difficult.
I am particularly thinking about John Deere. Although not specific to Electric vehicles.
https://youtu.be/EPYy_g8NzmI
I am particularly thinking about John Deere. Although not specific to Electric vehicles.
https://youtu.be/EPYy_g8NzmI
*electric
If I say "You can't shoot someone", and then you shoot them.....sure! Anything is possible.
In your example, have you since taken it to ford and told them you did this? Better not, as you've broken your warranty and they will see this and report that to you.They will put this information on record, and you now have a nightmare selling the vehicle.
Again, and your example is a good one, ICU vehicles and manufacturers are at least addressable/self repairable. This is not the case so much for electric.
In your example, have you since taken it to ford and told them you did this? Better not, as you've broken your warranty and they will see this and report that to you.They will put this information on record, and you now have a nightmare selling the vehicle.
Again, and your example is a good one, ICU vehicles and manufacturers are at least addressable/self repairable. This is not the case so much for electric.
This is very common in the BMW world as well.
Just an FYI, on Amazon you can buy Chinese scanners that decode proprietary OBD2 and do other handy things like the reprogramming for replacement key fobs.
Mine was $150 and came with Honda support. Other manufacturers can be downloaded for $50.
Mine was $150 and came with Honda support. Other manufacturers can be downloaded for $50.
>You're intentionally leaving out the fact that a greater and greater number of manufacturer/OEMs are making necessary tools to properly debug proprietary and locked behind contracts.
isn't that the way every industry intersecting with IT behaves, and isn't there always someone else fighting to open it up, so https://github.com/iDoka/awesome-canbus A curated list of awesome tools, hardware and resources for CAN bus
isn't that the way every industry intersecting with IT behaves, and isn't there always someone else fighting to open it up, so https://github.com/iDoka/awesome-canbus A curated list of awesome tools, hardware and resources for CAN bus
[deleted]
In 2004, I found myself breaking waves at the helm of my land yacht of a 1991 Crown Victoria LTD on the rolling hills of an upstate New York forest road when I came upon an inferior vehicle which required overtaking. Alas, once a rare passing zone appeared and I positioned to overtake and put my foot down, the pedal limply dropped to the floor and I began to slow. (Of course it was once I was right next to the guy who rightfully gave me a WTF look but I digress.)
After finding a good shoulder on which to beach my LTD and popping the hood, I found the problem: the socket side of the ball-and-socket throttle cable linkage had broken and would no longer hold together. Looking in my (voluminous undergrad compsci-student) trunk for a solution, my eyes landed on the -shiny- beigy PC tower, specifically the floppy drive. A couple strands of the disused 34-pin floppy cable well tied proved to be strong but flexible enough to hold that joint together and get me back to school.
Despite my college having a robust automotive program (which I even had a suitemate in), I never replaced the part and that hack held until I got rid of the car 10 years later (though I kept the other 30-odd strands of the cable in the glove box just in case).
While nostalgic, don’t read this as supportive because today I’m far more likely to find a CANBUS interface in my trunk than a floppy cable.
After finding a good shoulder on which to beach my LTD and popping the hood, I found the problem: the socket side of the ball-and-socket throttle cable linkage had broken and would no longer hold together. Looking in my (voluminous undergrad compsci-student) trunk for a solution, my eyes landed on the -shiny- beigy PC tower, specifically the floppy drive. A couple strands of the disused 34-pin floppy cable well tied proved to be strong but flexible enough to hold that joint together and get me back to school.
Despite my college having a robust automotive program (which I even had a suitemate in), I never replaced the part and that hack held until I got rid of the car 10 years later (though I kept the other 30-odd strands of the cable in the glove box just in case).
While nostalgic, don’t read this as supportive because today I’m far more likely to find a CANBUS interface in my trunk than a floppy cable.
reminds me of my 1963 VW Bus. The throttle pedal pressed down on a 90 degree arm/bellcrank which pulled on the throttle cable that ran to the rear engine. Because the throttle cable was old it had more friction internally, and the undercarriage of the vehicle wasn't in the best of shape. So the flat piece of metal on the body that the bellcrank attached to started to rip, so when I pressed the pedal down, the assembly would deflect and very little motion would be transferred to the cable. I took a small needlenose nose vise grip and clamped it over the rip in the metal, and then continued to drive it like that for the next 5 years.
My 1970-somthing VW Dasher wagon wouldn't go into gear one day. Turned out that the metal lever that the clutch pedal was connected to had developed a fatigue fracture and broken and could no longer disengage the clutch to get it into gear. But it was easily replaced (it was, after all, just a hunk of metal with some holes in it).
Good times.
Good times.
Reminds me of my 2008 bmw 3 series, one night in the hills, taking the twistes at speed, I hit a pothole in the road. This mechanical force caused a misread on one of the two redundant throttle position sensors in the accelerator pedal.
As a safety feature the car went into limp mode, limited it’s rpm and performance to less than about 40% of power and threw all the Christmas lights it could at the dash, error codes and idrive warnings.
I limped the car home and did a fault code reset from my laptop with the pirated bmw dealer software via a bluetooth-obdc2 dongle and it was fine after that.
Of course the problem continued under strenuous driving conditions. I could’ve replaced the pedal assembly but meh, it was always a good reminder to back off a bit in my 1800kg car.
As a safety feature the car went into limp mode, limited it’s rpm and performance to less than about 40% of power and threw all the Christmas lights it could at the dash, error codes and idrive warnings.
I limped the car home and did a fault code reset from my laptop with the pirated bmw dealer software via a bluetooth-obdc2 dongle and it was fine after that.
Of course the problem continued under strenuous driving conditions. I could’ve replaced the pedal assembly but meh, it was always a good reminder to back off a bit in my 1800kg car.
Fairly common issue. My (same year) 335 pops for knock sensor a couple times a year. Turn the car off, tap the sensors on the side of the block with a screwdriver a few times, clear the code and you're good to go.
It's a running joke on BMW forums, if someone throws that code most responses ask if they were driving fast and hit a pothole since that's a pretty consistent trigger.
It's a running joke on BMW forums, if someone throws that code most responses ask if they were driving fast and hit a pothole since that's a pretty consistent trigger.
Heh this was the 335d, so a nock sensor would’ve definitely been throwing fault codes if it had one ;)
There was often a combination of about 3-4 errors that would occur when it went into limp mode. To this day I’m not actually sure if replacing the pedal would’ve fixed it and I think off memory, it was a 220$ experiment to find out.
(On another note, make sure you’ve got the gearbox upgrade software if you haven’t already)
There was often a combination of about 3-4 errors that would occur when it went into limp mode. To this day I’m not actually sure if replacing the pedal would’ve fixed it and I think off memory, it was a 220$ experiment to find out.
(On another note, make sure you’ve got the gearbox upgrade software if you haven’t already)
I'm not being facetious at all when I say, if you have more stories like this, please consider making a podcast.
Ah, the Panther. I bought a beautiful ‘84 LTD two-door “coupe” in 1998, had only had one owner, an old lady. God I loved that car.
Fun to drive! But it required a lot more maintenance than new cars today.
Fun to drive! But it required a lot more maintenance than new cars today.
Yeah, that particular vehicle was designed in the 1950s and merely had slight engine, transmission, and sheet metal tweaks up until that point.
I always chuckle when people make these arguments about cars being better when they were easier to repair.
Sure, diagnosing and repairing a problems like the throttle control example is more difficult and expensive today than it was in the '70s. But cars are also so much more reliable today that the frequency of these repairs is considerably lower.
I have a 2009 Toyota Matrix that I have owned for 12 years now. It has nearly 140,000 miles on it. Last month, the vehicle finally had to get a repair of a non wear item (failing O2 sensor), which cost me $300. In 1975, how many cars could be expected to last 13 years and 140,000 miles before needing a single repair?
Sure, diagnosing and repairing a problems like the throttle control example is more difficult and expensive today than it was in the '70s. But cars are also so much more reliable today that the frequency of these repairs is considerably lower.
I have a 2009 Toyota Matrix that I have owned for 12 years now. It has nearly 140,000 miles on it. Last month, the vehicle finally had to get a repair of a non wear item (failing O2 sensor), which cost me $300. In 1975, how many cars could be expected to last 13 years and 140,000 miles before needing a single repair?
A car can be both easy to repair and reliable. They aren't mutually exclusive. When people complain about unrepairable vehicles, it's more to do with the arbitrary lock-in, manufacturers intentionally making things difficult. In the past, they'd require strange one-off mechanical tools for certain repair procedures so they could only be done in house. Now, it's electronics that have been designed to "manage your rights" by refusing to install without dealer intervention, etc. The inner workings of things are intentionally closed off and obfuscated. The obfuscation happens completely independent of any inherent increase in complexity that comes with fancy new tech, and sometimes adds complexity and even harms reliability.
Vehicles being hostile to their owners is not unique to electric propulsion, just like goods and services being hostile to consumers is not unique to transportation. It's a society-wide thing and it's about locking people in and reducing uncondoned behavior. It's about subjugating people.
Vehicles being hostile to their owners is not unique to electric propulsion, just like goods and services being hostile to consumers is not unique to transportation. It's a society-wide thing and it's about locking people in and reducing uncondoned behavior. It's about subjugating people.
i blame lawyers in general. the more subjugated a customer is, the cleaner their interaction is with contracts, and the less money is spent on lawyers working through the specific situation. Especially relevant in the event of tragedy.
"your car exploded? well you didnt use a triple certified dealership for your last oil change so you cant hold us accountable for that. says so in the contract."
now obviously if a car had that level of danger.. you wouldnt even be able to get the oil change done anywhere but the dealership. and in modern times where we try to hold companies responsible for everything we possibly can, it makes sense that anytime there is a remote possibility of liability, they attempt to gate the customer out of it completely.
i feel like the general population has either grown to be, or always has been, so indifferent towards subtle legal differences that we continue broadening the strokes of liability which is causing us to lose the power to do many basic things ourselves as a trade off for avoiding any personal responsibility tied to the consequences of doing those things improperly.
"your car exploded? well you didnt use a triple certified dealership for your last oil change so you cant hold us accountable for that. says so in the contract."
now obviously if a car had that level of danger.. you wouldnt even be able to get the oil change done anywhere but the dealership. and in modern times where we try to hold companies responsible for everything we possibly can, it makes sense that anytime there is a remote possibility of liability, they attempt to gate the customer out of it completely.
i feel like the general population has either grown to be, or always has been, so indifferent towards subtle legal differences that we continue broadening the strokes of liability which is causing us to lose the power to do many basic things ourselves as a trade off for avoiding any personal responsibility tied to the consequences of doing those things improperly.
As a lawyer that sues car companies, and the spouse of a lawyer that does work for car companies, I can assure you that lawyers aren’t the ones who convinced them to make things more proprietary and difficult to repair.
What kinds of things do you sue car companies for?
I do not think lawyers literally encouraged it, I just think that they are expensive and going proprietary helps avoid issues.
What's your take, though? Genuinely interested. It is widespread across the entire industry, so there appears to be an industry-related driving factor for it
I do not think lawyers literally encouraged it, I just think that they are expensive and going proprietary helps avoid issues.
What's your take, though? Genuinely interested. It is widespread across the entire industry, so there appears to be an industry-related driving factor for it
I agree that these things are bad. End-users and third party repair shops should be given access to any tools and parts they need to maintain and repair a vehicle.
Some designs are inherently harder to diagnose and repair though, even with access to OEM tools and parts. I reject the notion that being harder to repair is automatically bad, only when it is an intentional business decision to create vendor lock-in and not an engineering decision made to improve the quality of the product.
Some designs are inherently harder to diagnose and repair though, even with access to OEM tools and parts. I reject the notion that being harder to repair is automatically bad, only when it is an intentional business decision to create vendor lock-in and not an engineering decision made to improve the quality of the product.
Name a single car actually produced that was both highly reliable as in ~150,000 miles before first non ware issue and easy to repair.
Electronics vastly simplify many many systems. Back when say trip odometers where fairly simple mechanical devices they where also yet another system that would eventually break. Building mechanical systems that can handle heavy vibration, large temperature swings, long lifespan, etc while being light, cheap, and easy to repair is difficult.
Unfortunately electronics just makes stuff less intuitive. The sensor can sit anywhere as long as it connects to the CAN bus so you don’t always have an easy to trace mechanical linkage etc etc.
Electronics vastly simplify many many systems. Back when say trip odometers where fairly simple mechanical devices they where also yet another system that would eventually break. Building mechanical systems that can handle heavy vibration, large temperature swings, long lifespan, etc while being light, cheap, and easy to repair is difficult.
Unfortunately electronics just makes stuff less intuitive. The sensor can sit anywhere as long as it connects to the CAN bus so you don’t always have an easy to trace mechanical linkage etc etc.
That example is at best an anecdote. I had a car from the same year that required replacing the headlights multiple times a year, replacing the timing belt at around 100000km, electrical issues that were difficult to debug, etc..
It depends where you are, how well the car was designed, budget probably, luck
It depends where you are, how well the car was designed, budget probably, luck
Sure some luck was involved, but talk to your parents about a car from the 1960’s. Making even 40k miles without any issues was practically unheard of.
Meanwhile breaking 100k miles without issue seems to be a 50/50 shot on several models.
Meanwhile breaking 100k miles without issue seems to be a 50/50 shot on several models.
Name a single car actually produced that was both highly reliable as in ~150,000 miles before first non ware issue and easy to repair.
Look at fleet vehicles like taxis and police cars.
Look at fleet vehicles like taxis and police cars.
Crown victoria used to be a really popular fleet vehicle and it constantly had issues. The advantage was they where cheap to repair not that they needed minimal repairs.
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Absolutely. One of my buddies who's 25+ years older than me mused "man, it blows my mind that you kids can buy cars that will go over 100,000 miles without any serious maintenance"
The Ford Model-T was obviously much simpler than modern cars, but it also didn't have airbags that needed to be replaced after a fender bender. That doesn't make the new cars inferior to the Model T. Just different.
The more complex engineering brings benefits; some of the benefits are worth the added complexity, but others are not. (Not to mention it, "worth it" to whom... the customer, manufacturer, or society as a whole...)
The Ford Model-T was obviously much simpler than modern cars, but it also didn't have airbags that needed to be replaced after a fender bender. That doesn't make the new cars inferior to the Model T. Just different.
The more complex engineering brings benefits; some of the benefits are worth the added complexity, but others are not. (Not to mention it, "worth it" to whom... the customer, manufacturer, or society as a whole...)
I used to read old Popular Mechanics magazines and I remember one article from the late 40's or early 50's where it was discussing motorcycle maintenance and it explicitly stated that every 5,000 - 6,000 miles you should rebuild your engine for best performance.
Of course, the engine was a two-cylinder that had maybe 25 parts to it, the rebuild process only needed a crescent wrench, a screwdriver, and some gasket making chemicals, and was so simple that 2 pictures told you all of the information you needed to succeed.
Of course, the engine was a two-cylinder that had maybe 25 parts to it, the rebuild process only needed a crescent wrench, a screwdriver, and some gasket making chemicals, and was so simple that 2 pictures told you all of the information you needed to succeed.
I think there's a lot of "it depends" going on in these arguments so it's hard to say. I've worked on cars on both ends of the spectrum so this is just my experience.
My main concern is long-term maintainability for imported vehicles by me personally. Even though I'm a software and electronics nerd, I still don't have all the things necessary to maintain a modern vehicle, nor do I want to be re-manufacturing PCBs or replacing surface mount components. So once any one of the dozens to hundreds of boards goes bad, you have to find a replacement, and you also have to hope that the of EEPROM is in the right state for your car in regards to error codes and calibration so that you can actually use it.
One example from a 2012 Toyota Crown, replacing some trim on the steering wheel tweaked one of the sensors out of calibration. During recalibration, part of the radar braking system failed to calibrate. The car is perfectly fine in 99.9% of parameters, but the computer has disabled every computer assist system and put others in limp mode until this one can be calibrated. No traction control, stability control, cruise control, ABS, magnetic suspension, all stopped. The car handles like a truck now. That's a tough problem to solve, and a really annoying one too, since the car would work at 100% capacity if only this sensor would calibrate. Dealer can't fix it, importers can't fix it, I can't fix it.
Contrasted to more rudimentary cars, I can pretty much fabricate or repair any part I need to as time goes on. As fewer shops will work on these cars as well, I pretty much need to be self-sufficient, so simpler is better.
So it's not about reliability, but maintainability, every car will fail eventually. Not everyone lives in the middle of a city with a dealership nearby, and in my experience not even dealers can get some of these parts anymore. I can't even get parts for a 2007 BMW from my dealer anymore.
My main concern is long-term maintainability for imported vehicles by me personally. Even though I'm a software and electronics nerd, I still don't have all the things necessary to maintain a modern vehicle, nor do I want to be re-manufacturing PCBs or replacing surface mount components. So once any one of the dozens to hundreds of boards goes bad, you have to find a replacement, and you also have to hope that the of EEPROM is in the right state for your car in regards to error codes and calibration so that you can actually use it.
One example from a 2012 Toyota Crown, replacing some trim on the steering wheel tweaked one of the sensors out of calibration. During recalibration, part of the radar braking system failed to calibrate. The car is perfectly fine in 99.9% of parameters, but the computer has disabled every computer assist system and put others in limp mode until this one can be calibrated. No traction control, stability control, cruise control, ABS, magnetic suspension, all stopped. The car handles like a truck now. That's a tough problem to solve, and a really annoying one too, since the car would work at 100% capacity if only this sensor would calibrate. Dealer can't fix it, importers can't fix it, I can't fix it.
Contrasted to more rudimentary cars, I can pretty much fabricate or repair any part I need to as time goes on. As fewer shops will work on these cars as well, I pretty much need to be self-sufficient, so simpler is better.
So it's not about reliability, but maintainability, every car will fail eventually. Not everyone lives in the middle of a city with a dealership nearby, and in my experience not even dealers can get some of these parts anymore. I can't even get parts for a 2007 BMW from my dealer anymore.
There will always be a gap between the people who have the skills and knowledge needed to DIY a repair or an upgrade and the people who will never take on the mental effort needed to understand the world they are presented with.
The difficulty level of fixing 90% or more of computer issues would best be categorized as EASY to VERY EASY and yet people are paid mid-5 to 6 figures to do them because of the same phenomenon.
Most people, when their car stopped going forward when they press the go pedal would have a panic attack and call a tow truck. Being the kind of person who has the knowledge to identify the issue, trace it to its origin, and to craft a kludge strong enough to resolve the issue saved you a tow and a repair fee, but you can't assume that because it's easy for you it would also be easy for anyone else.
I guess I'm just saying what we've all heard before, knowledge is power. Fixing your own car, or your own computer, or your own home is at some level knowledge work. Having the knowledge without the ability to use it is frustrating, so most people won't put the effort in to learn the knowledge until they have a use for it, and most of the time they won't have a use for it until it is too late to gain the knowledge.
The difficulty level of fixing 90% or more of computer issues would best be categorized as EASY to VERY EASY and yet people are paid mid-5 to 6 figures to do them because of the same phenomenon.
Most people, when their car stopped going forward when they press the go pedal would have a panic attack and call a tow truck. Being the kind of person who has the knowledge to identify the issue, trace it to its origin, and to craft a kludge strong enough to resolve the issue saved you a tow and a repair fee, but you can't assume that because it's easy for you it would also be easy for anyone else.
I guess I'm just saying what we've all heard before, knowledge is power. Fixing your own car, or your own computer, or your own home is at some level knowledge work. Having the knowledge without the ability to use it is frustrating, so most people won't put the effort in to learn the knowledge until they have a use for it, and most of the time they won't have a use for it until it is too late to gain the knowledge.
Diagnostic computers are cheap enougj if your car is old enough. Thise for new models are expensive. Self repairabiliy stopped being a thing in the, IMHO, mid 80s. For a lot of stuff. Adding diff locks and the like, especially those not controlled by the onbord computers is actually pretty trivial, regardless of model year.
What's said about EVs can be as much true about ICE powered cars, the computer controlled nature is the same for both.
I appreciate my 1982 Range Rover more every day so. Besides a treadful fuel consumption. After all it is running on 3 fuses, perfect for an electricity and electeonics idiot like me.
What's said about EVs can be as much true about ICE powered cars, the computer controlled nature is the same for both.
I appreciate my 1982 Range Rover more every day so. Besides a treadful fuel consumption. After all it is running on 3 fuses, perfect for an electricity and electeonics idiot like me.
"Self repairabiliy stopped being a thing in the, IMHO, mid 80s."
This really isn't true. Cars all the way up to the mid 2000's are very easy to work on and repair. I have always done all of my own repairs. Domestic cars even today are still easy to work on. Yes you need a diagnostic tool to do some more advanced diagnosing. A $300 Autel will do most things, an $800 Autel will do nearly everything. Yes it is an expense but it can pay for itself in one repair when you factor in labor costs at a mechanic. And that Autel will continue to work for all of your repairs the next 5+ years.
You need to buy $300+ worth of mechanical tools to work on your 1982 Range Rover.
You need to buy $300+ electronic tool to work on a modern car.
I would say German cars from the ~2010's up are out of reach for the average person to repair, they are using fiber optic networks and complicated engine management systems. But everything else is really isn't that difficult if you have a basic (High School Level) understanding of how electricity and computer networks work.
This really isn't true. Cars all the way up to the mid 2000's are very easy to work on and repair. I have always done all of my own repairs. Domestic cars even today are still easy to work on. Yes you need a diagnostic tool to do some more advanced diagnosing. A $300 Autel will do most things, an $800 Autel will do nearly everything. Yes it is an expense but it can pay for itself in one repair when you factor in labor costs at a mechanic. And that Autel will continue to work for all of your repairs the next 5+ years.
You need to buy $300+ worth of mechanical tools to work on your 1982 Range Rover.
You need to buy $300+ electronic tool to work on a modern car.
I would say German cars from the ~2010's up are out of reach for the average person to repair, they are using fiber optic networks and complicated engine management systems. But everything else is really isn't that difficult if you have a basic (High School Level) understanding of how electricity and computer networks work.
Around 300 bucks is about right. Good thing is, it's all basic mechanical tools that do a lot of other stuff. And it includes the specialized tool, e.g. for the carbs and the prop shafts. The same tools are needed for the mechanical repairs on modern cars as well, so.
Some power tools help, again those do other things as well.
If you cannot do most of the repairs on an old car yourself, they are unaffordable. Garages, if you one willing to work on them, charge around 100 bucks per hour where I live.
My problem is, despite being an industrial engineer, I seem to have a blind spot for electrics and electronics. Mechanics are much easier. The main reason I will never switch to eletronic fuel injection, I can rebuild the carbs in the desert and can calibrate them. EFi goes over my horizon so.
Some power tools help, again those do other things as well.
If you cannot do most of the repairs on an old car yourself, they are unaffordable. Garages, if you one willing to work on them, charge around 100 bucks per hour where I live.
My problem is, despite being an industrial engineer, I seem to have a blind spot for electrics and electronics. Mechanics are much easier. The main reason I will never switch to eletronic fuel injection, I can rebuild the carbs in the desert and can calibrate them. EFi goes over my horizon so.
Fortunately the $300+ worth of mechanical tools also fix other things like appliances, etc.
> Self repairabiliy stopped being a thing in the, IMHO, mid 80s. For a lot of stuff.
Was it emission control stuff? Computer controlled fuel injection?
Definitely was a different era when you could rotate the distributor to advance/retard the timing.
Was it emission control stuff? Computer controlled fuel injection?
Definitely was a different era when you could rotate the distributor to advance/retard the timing.
Keep in mind that third-party diagnostic equipment is almost always based on reverse-engineering and may lack some features, and original equipment from the manufacturer is rarely available.
Only partially. I used to work for a third party diagnosis tool company, and we had direct access to information from all companies, which they had to legally give us. I still reverse engineered a lot of things because when I.didn't understand the spec seeing what their tool did made it make sense.
I haf this discussion with mechnic friend a while ago, obviously not not a 40 year old car so. Our true second car is now, I have to guess, 15 years old. Diagnostics are no problem, computers with the correct software are around 400 bucks. Cheap enough for either an enyhisiast or free mechanic. The main car is 4 now, diagnostics equipment is only OEM, and goes for 5 figures. Go figure, but it explains why diagnostic jours can be so expensive.
I drove a mid '90s Toyota Camry for close to 250k miles with routine maintenance (and a door handle replacement because their design was pretty bad). At that point, it needed around $1k in fixes and it would likely have been good for many more miles if I'd have been interested. I've seen more than a few 80s models with twice that mileage.
Reliable cars don't necessarily have to be entirely electronic.
Reliable cars don't necessarily have to be entirely electronic.
My uncle had a 1993 Honda Accord that had 400,000 miles on it before finally died.
4-cylinder American cars in the 80s were junk and did not last long at all.
I remember seeing broken down cars pretty often as a kid. Just driving 30 minutes to the grocery store on weekends and seeing (or being) one wasn’t that uncommon.
I noticed at one point that I stopped seeing broken down cars. Sure, I’ll see accidents sometimes, but I cannot remember the last time I saw someone pulled over with an overheated car, something smoking, or just not running for whatever reason.
I noticed at one point that I stopped seeing broken down cars. Sure, I’ll see accidents sometimes, but I cannot remember the last time I saw someone pulled over with an overheated car, something smoking, or just not running for whatever reason.
The older generation in my region of the world has this notion that a car isn't worth anything after 200 000km, so sellers tamper with the odometer so that it shows the magic 1 in front.
That was indeed the case in the 80s and 90s, when the fleet consisted mostly of eastern block made shitboxes, in which you never knew what would happen first: the engine fail completely or rust eat a hole in the floor.
That was indeed the case in the 80s and 90s, when the fleet consisted mostly of eastern block made shitboxes, in which you never knew what would happen first: the engine fail completely or rust eat a hole in the floor.
In 1975, how many cars could be expected to last 13 years and 140,000 miles before needing a single repair?
In 1975, they built things to be serviceable because they expected regular maintenance. Obviously if you neglect the maintenance you are going to have severe problems, but many people just didn't care about maintenance and drove them into the ground.
Now, they design for a certain lifetime without maintanence, after which it becomes prohibitively difficult/expensive or impossible to repair. This increases the perception of reliability especially given a population who won't do periodic maintenance.
If you look at the "survivor" vehicles that are old and ultra-high mileage, one thing that stands out is the owner(s) adhered strictly to the manufacturer's specified maintenance intervals.
In 1975, they built things to be serviceable because they expected regular maintenance. Obviously if you neglect the maintenance you are going to have severe problems, but many people just didn't care about maintenance and drove them into the ground.
Now, they design for a certain lifetime without maintanence, after which it becomes prohibitively difficult/expensive or impossible to repair. This increases the perception of reliability especially given a population who won't do periodic maintenance.
If you look at the "survivor" vehicles that are old and ultra-high mileage, one thing that stands out is the owner(s) adhered strictly to the manufacturer's specified maintenance intervals.
I mean, this is just not true for Ford and Mercury. In the 1980s, we routinely got rid of 4-cylinder cars at 80,000 miles with all regularly scheduled maintenance done by a dealership.
None. Hence my well stocked tool chest. The idea back then was to buy a simple car that you could fix because you would have to. I turned wrenches on Datsuns, VWs, Volvos, in line 6 Fords and Chevys. I stayed very clear of British anything, Caddys, diesels and Italian anything
Ironically (in the context of this thread), the most reliable vehicle I have ever owned is turning out to be a Jaguar I-PACE.
Well maintained pickup trucks...but you had to be a real stickler about that maintenance. You may have lost a power steering pump or water pump but the repair was trivial. Part was cheap and labor was your teenage son (or daughter).
But it's not really that straight forward. You push the pedal, the computer runs an algorithm, and then throttle body moves. The algorithm is the part that you can't troubleshoot, mitigate, or fix.
I recently started driving a drive-by-wire vehicle. A while ago I had an issue where the engine dropped to a near-idle (on the freeway) and the pedal was effectively non-operative. The diagnostics said the computer wasn't getting the expected results from moving the throttle body, so it went into some kind of safe mode.
Now, there are plenty of ways that drive-by-cable could fail, but in this case I was slightly resentful because I could have mitigated the computer's loss of senses with my own.
I recently started driving a drive-by-wire vehicle. A while ago I had an issue where the engine dropped to a near-idle (on the freeway) and the pedal was effectively non-operative. The diagnostics said the computer wasn't getting the expected results from moving the throttle body, so it went into some kind of safe mode.
Now, there are plenty of ways that drive-by-cable could fail, but in this case I was slightly resentful because I could have mitigated the computer's loss of senses with my own.
The problem there is that the software is proprietary, not that it has an electronic throttle pedal.
A million times this, I'm currently installing a hidden pass-through can-bus logger before I take my car to the dealership because of this insanity. So much of my life is wasted reverse engineering stuff when I could be doing shit that actually contributes to humanity. This is the cost of a broken IP system.
I agree with the sentiment, but I don't think IP law is to blame. I think it's consumer protection law that is the problem here. Magnuson–Moss should be amended to require warrantors to provide repair information. (edit: and tools)
Yes and no. We absolutely should be amending Magnuson-Moss, but the reason for why we need to legally mandate access to repair manuals is very much downstream of current copyright law. Companies realized that once you put software into a device, they owned the thing that makes the device useful at all, and they could then charge access to that software in the same way one charges access to a scummy mobile game.
Furthermore, because the law surrounding creative works is extremely strict, any repair that might touch something that could be construed to be DRM protecting the manufacturer's software becomes legally dicey. You also can't tell anyone how to break that DRM, no matter how justifiable repair is. So if you somehow figure out how to reserialize new parts onto a locked-down vehicle, you're probably allowed to do that; but you can't legally sell that knowledge onto other repair shops.
Furthermore, because the law surrounding creative works is extremely strict, any repair that might touch something that could be construed to be DRM protecting the manufacturer's software becomes legally dicey. You also can't tell anyone how to break that DRM, no matter how justifiable repair is. So if you somehow figure out how to reserialize new parts onto a locked-down vehicle, you're probably allowed to do that; but you can't legally sell that knowledge onto other repair shops.
> You also can't tell anyone how to break that DRM, no matter how justifiable repair is. So if you somehow figure out how to reserialize new parts onto a locked-down vehicle, you're probably allowed to do that; but you can't legally sell that knowledge onto other repair shops.
Nobody would have to do any of that BS if it was illegal for that DRM to exist under Magnuson-Moss to begin with.
Nobody would have to do any of that BS if it was illegal for that DRM to exist under Magnuson-Moss to begin with.
What can't you do? Everytime I dig into this I discover someone wants to violate emissions laws. Sure you can change your throttle response without that, but the only people who want to are trying to break emissions.
I'm still waiting for an example of where DRM stops a normal repair
I'm still waiting for an example of where DRM stops a normal repair
Well, first off, DMCA 1201 is part of copyright law; it's not a generic prohibition on removing any code that enforces a law. It's only for code or mechanisms that checks if you paid for a creative work. If you want a law that makes it illegal to tell people how to roll coal, pass a separate law that does just that. Bending copyright law to serve every imaginable prosocial benefit has inherent harms to it.
The example of DRM stopping normal repair is serialized parts: lots of vehicles, farm equipment, and phones are designed to refuse to work if you swap certain parts on them. The only way you are supposed to be able to swap parts is to pay the manufacturer's branded repair firms to make the swap for you, and then send some kind of signature to the computer in that vehicle that says the repair was authorized. Bypassing these schemes requires tampering with DRM code, which trips DMCA 1201. Yes, it may be legally unenforceable, but to get there requires a decade's worth of expensive litigation to prove that something that was legal before you put a computer in a car should be legal after you put a computer in a car. And even then you almost certainly can't distribute the tools you made to do what should be a legal repair because those tools might be used by someone else to pirate the ECU firmware or something.
The example of DRM stopping normal repair is serialized parts: lots of vehicles, farm equipment, and phones are designed to refuse to work if you swap certain parts on them. The only way you are supposed to be able to swap parts is to pay the manufacturer's branded repair firms to make the swap for you, and then send some kind of signature to the computer in that vehicle that says the repair was authorized. Bypassing these schemes requires tampering with DRM code, which trips DMCA 1201. Yes, it may be legally unenforceable, but to get there requires a decade's worth of expensive litigation to prove that something that was legal before you put a computer in a car should be legal after you put a computer in a car. And even then you almost certainly can't distribute the tools you made to do what should be a legal repair because those tools might be used by someone else to pirate the ECU firmware or something.
Car owners like that as it means stealing a car for parts isn't worth it
The classic example is anything that's signed by crypto. So, often, pieces of the security systems or infotainment systems on a vehicle. But I was thinking more broadly, about other types of consumer products, once I started talking about Magnuson–Moss above.
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IP law is the problem. The anti-circumvention clauses (that kinda make sense for media DRM) are used to criminalize tools that make unofficial repair (or just "repair", because official repair is just swapping entire modules) possible.
Nobody would even need to make circumvention tools if the manufacturers are required to provide you a mechanism for doing what you want to do.
I think there are likely ways to weaken IP law that solve this problem and since I generally tend toward reducing complexity and already want to weaken IP law for a host of other reasons I prefer that approach.
Weakening IP law is the complicated way to do it, because you're touching so many other things that are not just "embedded software in hardware products".
The simple way to protect consumers ability to fix products is to simply require manufacturers to provide the information to do it.
The simple way to protect consumers ability to fix products is to simply require manufacturers to provide the information to do it.
We shouldn't focus on patching stuff when the core of the system is rotten, we need to dig deep, possibly do a rewrite. This is a peripheral thing that may just be fixed for free if we deal with the core.
Regardless of the validity of that statement -- it will never be politically feasible to rewrite a large chunk of IP law on such a niche issue. If we want this to actually happen, we need to propose a solution where there are more people who support it than there are who are concerned about it. Rewriting all of IP law means you're just going to make enemies with all of the major media companies who don't have anything to do with selling hardware devices.
But, I still don't think this is an IP law issue. IP law should not be a weapon used to prevent you from repairing your devices -- but neither should anything else. If you only change IP law, companies are just going to find a different way to prevent you from mucking with their stuff.
There's a reason we call this "right to repair" and not "right to make an attempt to do hacky DRM workarounds"
But, I still don't think this is an IP law issue. IP law should not be a weapon used to prevent you from repairing your devices -- but neither should anything else. If you only change IP law, companies are just going to find a different way to prevent you from mucking with their stuff.
There's a reason we call this "right to repair" and not "right to make an attempt to do hacky DRM workarounds"
I don't think this is a niche issue though.
The current discussion is about fixing cars. But the right to repair is a problem for everything with a computer in it.
You could take the title of this article and replace "an electric vehicle" just about any electronic device most people would own.
The current discussion is about fixing cars. But the right to repair is a problem for everything with a computer in it.
You could take the title of this article and replace "an electric vehicle" just about any electronic device most people would own.
It's not a niche issue to anyone on this forum -- politically, it's a niche issue.
https://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Pro...
https://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Pro...
cant you just pay the mechanic to take care if it for you while you are doing your important humanity saving work?
Do you want to debug your own throttle software? Download 3rd-party firmware for your car?
> Download 3rd-party firmware for your car?
I imagine insurance companies will eventually have clauses that prevent this.
I imagine insurance companies will eventually have clauses that prevent this.
They don't prevent me from modifying my car now. In fact, they'll explicitly give me coverage for aftermarket equipment upon request.
"Evenutally". There's little reason now, with 99.99% of cars being human driven, where a dropped Twinky has a higher chance of causing an accident than some slightly modified ECU curves.
> I was slightly resentful because I could have mitigated the computer's loss of senses with my own.
For me this is the crux of the matter. As the person in the driver's seat, I demand that I be the ultimate arbiter of what the motor(s) and wheels ought to do, regardless of what any set of sensors and/or set of computer programs thinks is going on.
I once had a car refuse to release the emergency brakes when it was time to disembark a ferry because the firmware misinterpreted the natural rocking of the vessel (and hence the car itself) as some kind of suspension fault. It left me more than "slightly resentful." I was absolutely furious at being stuck in a really rotten situation where my car was actively causing problems for those around me (people behind me had to drive off the ferry) and wouldn't even let itself go into a mode where it could be pushed off. The dealership's service center simply said, "Uh, sorry. Your brakes are locked. You can't override it. You need to get it towed in."
I don't care if the car thinks it's keeping you from rolling off a 500-foot cliff. If I say, "No, release the brakes, I mean it," the car had better do exactly as I tell it.
For me this is the crux of the matter. As the person in the driver's seat, I demand that I be the ultimate arbiter of what the motor(s) and wheels ought to do, regardless of what any set of sensors and/or set of computer programs thinks is going on.
I once had a car refuse to release the emergency brakes when it was time to disembark a ferry because the firmware misinterpreted the natural rocking of the vessel (and hence the car itself) as some kind of suspension fault. It left me more than "slightly resentful." I was absolutely furious at being stuck in a really rotten situation where my car was actively causing problems for those around me (people behind me had to drive off the ferry) and wouldn't even let itself go into a mode where it could be pushed off. The dealership's service center simply said, "Uh, sorry. Your brakes are locked. You can't override it. You need to get it towed in."
I don't care if the car thinks it's keeping you from rolling off a 500-foot cliff. If I say, "No, release the brakes, I mean it," the car had better do exactly as I tell it.
> But it's not really that straight forward. You push the pedal, the computer runs an algorithm, and then throttle body moves. The algorithm is the part that you can't troubleshoot, mitigate, or fix.
You can, actually, and its fairly commonly done[0]. Mapping pedal to throttle position is trivial, as is intercepting and modifying the pedal output signal. Its also not that hard to rip out the throttle body and replace it with a programmable unit. Imo new cars aren't so much harder to fix and modify as they are different to fix and modify.[1]
As Socrates rise from his grave and say: “The cars now love luxury; they have bad throttle control, contempt for steering; they show disrespect for elders and love economy in place of horsepower. Cars are now tyrants, not the servants of their drivers. They no longer rise when the key turns. They contradict their owners, turn off at stoplights, gobble up electricity at the plug, beep incessantly, and tyrannize their seatbelts.”
[0]Pedal boosters or pedal tuners. [1]Not excusing the myriad of insipid design choices, of course.
You can, actually, and its fairly commonly done[0]. Mapping pedal to throttle position is trivial, as is intercepting and modifying the pedal output signal. Its also not that hard to rip out the throttle body and replace it with a programmable unit. Imo new cars aren't so much harder to fix and modify as they are different to fix and modify.[1]
As Socrates rise from his grave and say: “The cars now love luxury; they have bad throttle control, contempt for steering; they show disrespect for elders and love economy in place of horsepower. Cars are now tyrants, not the servants of their drivers. They no longer rise when the key turns. They contradict their owners, turn off at stoplights, gobble up electricity at the plug, beep incessantly, and tyrannize their seatbelts.”
[0]Pedal boosters or pedal tuners. [1]Not excusing the myriad of insipid design choices, of course.
You feel slightly resentful, but if there was an incipient failure of the actuator and the next step might've been a stuck-open throttle then you should probably be a bit grateful too, right?
Been there. Done that. Not nearly as eventful as internet commenters make it out to be.
It was such a large inconvenience the replacement cable is still sitting in the box behind the seat.
It was such a large inconvenience the replacement cable is still sitting in the box behind the seat.
Would it have even failed if it wasn't drive by wire though?
Obviously not in the same way. Overall system failure rates comparing cable vs digital throttle control - I have no idea.
I do know that I can’t remember the last time I drove a car with a bad idle, which is much more than anyone who lived in 80s can say.
Also: throttle by wire permits simpler cruise control integrations, better fuel economy and also facilitates the operation of safety systems like traction/stability control - so it’s not exactly a like-for-like comparison.
I do know that I can’t remember the last time I drove a car with a bad idle, which is much more than anyone who lived in 80s can say.
Also: throttle by wire permits simpler cruise control integrations, better fuel economy and also facilitates the operation of safety systems like traction/stability control - so it’s not exactly a like-for-like comparison.
This is a nit, but idle control was automated well before drive-by-wire took over. Idle could be on closed loop control, but if the idle solenoid failed, it was less catastrophic than losing throttle control.
Heh, I think 50% of my experience working on 90s cars was cleaning IACVs
Throttles linkages are a regular maintenance item on vehicles with mechanical throttle linkages. And all (non-antique) engines with mechanical throttle linkages have return springs as a safety backup for when/if they do fail. Some of them also have redundant linkages on top of this. It is not uncommon for throttle cables to have their maintenance neglected, and eventually, they will wear out and break.
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Throttle's did fail before drive by wire but I have no data to compare.
That you can't troubleshoot/mitigate/fix that is not an inherent property of such a throttle, but a choice by the manufacturer to not let you.
Not so fast. It is emissions regulations that dictate it. I like driving cars fast, but locking down emissions to the chagrin of every car guy scratching their head online saying "why did it used to be better?" makes me happy.
It's a small victory for the future of the species.
It's a small victory for the future of the species.
I am also a fan of emission regs. But, emissions regulations require that you leave emissions equipment intact, it does not require automakers to prevent you from touching those systems.
The problem is that your average Joe now needs an engineering degree or at least understanding of how a CAN bus works, how to properly terminate it and basically use a CAN to serial convertor to read tge messages which aren't always standardized. I agree that it's more flexible but you need a highly qualified professional and the right tools to work on the vehicle. I'm working with CAN networks myself but I still need an experienced electronics engineer when I get in trouble. In addition, most manufacturers add proprietary extensions and most of the work involves a fair amount of reverse engineering or NDAs.
I have a long lost relative who quit their job when their employer upgraded from horses to automobiles. They knew how horses and wagons worked, but working on what is now very simple mechanical engines, was way beyond what they were willing to learn.
Technology changes and you can either learn it or not.
Specialization of labor does make everything more complicated, but I'm glad I'm not having to grow my own vegetables or pump my own well water, despite the fact that I have no clue how modern farming or water treatment work. I suspect transportation will continue to become more specialized just like everything else.
Technology changes and you can either learn it or not.
Specialization of labor does make everything more complicated, but I'm glad I'm not having to grow my own vegetables or pump my own well water, despite the fact that I have no clue how modern farming or water treatment work. I suspect transportation will continue to become more specialized just like everything else.
I think technology changes but it doesn’t need to be hostile.
An electric car, for all intents and purposes should be substantially easier to repair, diagnose, and work on, but manufacturers are doing things like using proprietary signaling protocols, locking out third party parts, and putting complex software in the place of simple and reliable hardware. Electric cars aren’t new, they’ve been around since the 90s and it was perfectly possible to create one without the “smart” nonsense we are seeing today. My car doesn’t need to report my location to a database or have a manufacturer kill-switch and it doesn’t make one a Luddite for feeling that way.
An electric car, for all intents and purposes should be substantially easier to repair, diagnose, and work on, but manufacturers are doing things like using proprietary signaling protocols, locking out third party parts, and putting complex software in the place of simple and reliable hardware. Electric cars aren’t new, they’ve been around since the 90s and it was perfectly possible to create one without the “smart” nonsense we are seeing today. My car doesn’t need to report my location to a database or have a manufacturer kill-switch and it doesn’t make one a Luddite for feeling that way.
The Chinese are our last hope. Since they have total disregard for IP and NDAs we can get scanners and tools from them that actually let us circumvent arbitrary manufacturer limitations
Electric cars aren’t new, they’ve been around since the 90s
The 1890s, to be precise...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Thomas_Parker_Electric_ca...
The 1890s, to be precise...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Thomas_Parker_Electric_ca...
Sometimes folks like that actually aren’t Luddite’s, but deeply understand a process.
Case in point, I have a former high school friend who runs a farm that’s about 50 acres as his primary business - without major machinery. They have quads and pickup trucks, but most applications where one would use a tractor are now done with animal power.
The result? It’s actually cheaper to operate as grass is cheaper than diesel. He’s not getting rich, but makes as decent living.
Case in point, I have a former high school friend who runs a farm that’s about 50 acres as his primary business - without major machinery. They have quads and pickup trucks, but most applications where one would use a tractor are now done with animal power.
The result? It’s actually cheaper to operate as grass is cheaper than diesel. He’s not getting rich, but makes as decent living.
I'm really interested in learning more about this. Does he have a website? I've sat down and run some numbers before and it definitely seems feasible, but that's just back-of-the-napkin estimation. I grew up on a farm, but of course we were fully mechanized.
> Technology changes and you can either learn it or not.
That's not the main problem with newer cars. The problem is that much of the required knowledge is intentionally kept proprietary so there is no way for regular people to fix it regardless of how much they want to learn it.
That's not the main problem with newer cars. The problem is that much of the required knowledge is intentionally kept proprietary so there is no way for regular people to fix it regardless of how much they want to learn it.
If you're ever curious what getting into modern farming might be like, give Clarkson's Farm a watch. Very enjoyable series.
My main complaint with Clarkson's Farm is that his approach to every problem was "which piece of equipment can we purchase to solve this?" Not very surprising if you know Jeremy Clarkson, I know.
There's an awful lot of people on enthusiast forums who quite clearly have no idea what they're doing, let alone have an engineering degree, and are able to connect to their CAN bus, add "magic boxes" (from their perspective) that change the behavior of the car/truck, add displays of onboard telemetry, or some other feature.
Only a tiny sliver of people need to understand how CAN actually works. Most Average-Joes just need to know how to connect (which is often done just via plugging into the OBD2 port, giving a keyed connector with power, ground, and at least one CAN bus).
As a hobby, I sell a low-volume device for a niche vehicle that works exactly this way. I assure that almost none of my users have any idea how a computer works, let alone anything physical on the CAN bus or what an MCP2515 or 120 ohm resistor is.
Only a tiny sliver of people need to understand how CAN actually works. Most Average-Joes just need to know how to connect (which is often done just via plugging into the OBD2 port, giving a keyed connector with power, ground, and at least one CAN bus).
As a hobby, I sell a low-volume device for a niche vehicle that works exactly this way. I assure that almost none of my users have any idea how a computer works, let alone anything physical on the CAN bus or what an MCP2515 or 120 ohm resistor is.
You only get a very limited set of diagnostics info through the OBD2 port. I'll probably get one of the Macchina devices to play with as well.
That depends on the car. Many have the main CAN bus fully exposed on pins 6/14 and some of those have bridges to other CAN buses in the car connected.
> From an engineering perspective, it is very convenient (and reliable) to have everything in the car just sit on a communication bus and write software to do the logic, rather than have dedicated wires or mechanical connections.
I would say that some repairs are _easier_ now. The computer can tell you about many issues it knows about. You can see if a cylinder is misfiring. Or if the O2 sensor is bad. Etc. Just have to plug in a reader. It would be great to have some standardization and open documentation on this. But it beats dismantling stuff and trying to figure out by trial or error (or by listening to sounds)
I would say that some repairs are _easier_ now. The computer can tell you about many issues it knows about. You can see if a cylinder is misfiring. Or if the O2 sensor is bad. Etc. Just have to plug in a reader. It would be great to have some standardization and open documentation on this. But it beats dismantling stuff and trying to figure out by trial or error (or by listening to sounds)
>> Until the late 1980s, a cable on the engine throttle connected directly to the accelerator pedal, giving drivers total control of their engine speed and power.
Late 80s? No, that's at least a decade off. OBD2 wasn't even made mandatory in the US until 1996. That's when things started to go off the rails.
Late 80s? No, that's at least a decade off. OBD2 wasn't even made mandatory in the US until 1996. That's when things started to go off the rails.
Yes, that date range is way off. My mid-2000s cars still has a proper physical throttle cable.
from a computer engineering perspective would have been more appropriate.
As a mechanical engineer, I disagree with most of your comment. You've added sensors, electronics, servos... all to position control something that's an arms reach away (technically...). Lubricating a cable, which happens almost never in this case to no ill effect, directly compared to bits takes a few leaps over the reality of hardware.So the complexity is far higher and the control system can now be compromised, will be compromised by design and you are not writing the firmware updates..
Maybe the car you were taking about is in the metaverse though?
edit:
Perhaps far more importantly, the concept of features as a service has suddenly caught the eyes of vehicle manufacturers, see Toyota latest debacle with deactivated remote starters. The more digital control they have....
This is really a question of when. People are rightly assessing the sale/lease of software by the second in the very near future. Imagine driving down the highway on the first of the month and your pedal deactivates because you forgot to update an expired credit card autopayment.
Future's looking bright, can't wait to get my toilet on CANbus
Maybe the car you were taking about is in the metaverse though?
edit:
Perhaps far more importantly, the concept of features as a service has suddenly caught the eyes of vehicle manufacturers, see Toyota latest debacle with deactivated remote starters. The more digital control they have....
This is really a question of when. People are rightly assessing the sale/lease of software by the second in the very near future. Imagine driving down the highway on the first of the month and your pedal deactivates because you forgot to update an expired credit card autopayment.
Future's looking bright, can't wait to get my toilet on CANbus
>You've added sensors, electronics, servos... all to position control something that's an arms reach away
There already were airflow/pressure and throttle position sensors and idle control servo in the throttle body unless you mean carb antique.
Removing direct mechanical linkage decouples raw air flap control movement from driver intend (/1), allows things like dynamic throttle response, rev matching, better cruise control, better fuel efficiency by precise control over fuel/air mixture, lower emissions, and simplifies throttle body by removing a ton of mechanical junk.
/1 If you really think you need that in your life try flying older helicopters where You the pilot must act as an engine governor because thats how it worked in the 60s and thanks to insane aviation safety regulations everything got frozen in time with 1060s designs being still manufactured up to 2010.
There already were airflow/pressure and throttle position sensors and idle control servo in the throttle body unless you mean carb antique.
Removing direct mechanical linkage decouples raw air flap control movement from driver intend (/1), allows things like dynamic throttle response, rev matching, better cruise control, better fuel efficiency by precise control over fuel/air mixture, lower emissions, and simplifies throttle body by removing a ton of mechanical junk.
/1 If you really think you need that in your life try flying older helicopters where You the pilot must act as an engine governor because thats how it worked in the 60s and thanks to insane aviation safety regulations everything got frozen in time with 1060s designs being still manufactured up to 2010.
A throttle cable has one trivially diagnosable and fixable failure mode, it might snap. Although in practice they rarely do.
A highly complex interconnected message bus has hundreds of bugs (guaranteed) and many unpredictable failure modes. Also diagnostics is potentially impossible if the manufacturer hides the details.
Simpler is always better.
A highly complex interconnected message bus has hundreds of bugs (guaranteed) and many unpredictable failure modes. Also diagnostics is potentially impossible if the manufacturer hides the details.
Simpler is always better.
There are two failure modes. It can also stick. I've only experience a stuck throttle cable, not a snapped one.
Trivially, simpler is not always better. A bike is simpler than a car, but it is not at all what I want if I have to go to the hospital.
It isn't more difficult because anyone is conspiring against you.
Nothing in the passage you quote indicates this is a conspiracy, merely a change.
Maybe it's more difficult because electricity is invisible, the techniques require new knowledge, or you're not familiar with it.
Or maybe it's as the article suggests - complex electronic machinery creates the possibility, not the necessity, of an manufacturer sealing everything from being repaired by individuals.
Is it beyond comprehension that a new technology can give many advantages and offers a number of problems? That people who criticize completely sealed systems aren't always "back to the good old days" Luddites (notably, even the historical Luddites didn't conform to what Luddite has come to mean now).
Nothing in the passage you quote indicates this is a conspiracy, merely a change.
Maybe it's more difficult because electricity is invisible, the techniques require new knowledge, or you're not familiar with it.
Or maybe it's as the article suggests - complex electronic machinery creates the possibility, not the necessity, of an manufacturer sealing everything from being repaired by individuals.
Is it beyond comprehension that a new technology can give many advantages and offers a number of problems? That people who criticize completely sealed systems aren't always "back to the good old days" Luddites (notably, even the historical Luddites didn't conform to what Luddite has come to mean now).
> Until the late 1980s, a cable on the engine throttle connected directly to the accelerator pedal,
Was this really just until the late 80s? I’m pretty sure I had cars with a traditional throttle cable with model years in the 90s or later.
Was this really just until the late 80s? I’m pretty sure I had cars with a traditional throttle cable with model years in the 90s or later.
My 2002 Tacoma has a throttle cable.
Can I also send CAN messages to manipulate the throttle programmatically?
You sure can. In fact, at least for my car (2018 Chevy Bolt), it's possible to find detailed instructions on how to wire up a throttle interceptor and hook it up to a Comma2 unit to add adaptive cruise control when it wasn't even available as a factory option.
I even briefly considered doing so after reading a favorable review of the Comma2's driving algorithm by Consumer Reports, but decided too much could go wrong with messing with my car's throttle wiring.
I even briefly considered doing so after reading a favorable review of the Comma2's driving algorithm by Consumer Reports, but decided too much could go wrong with messing with my car's throttle wiring.
Hmm, that's interesting... Why is the throttle interceptor necessary? Is the CAN bus jack read-only somehow?
There are other devices on the bus looking for messages specifically from the throttle address. The idea is that you want to change those messages, but only sometimes (i.e. when cruise is on), so MITM'ing the messages is the easiest way to implement this.
Ah okay, I assume you can't just spoof the address then, thanks.
You could, but you'd have two devices reporting different values for the same address and the devices reading that value wouldn't know what to do.
I don't own a car so can't stick my head under the driver's seat to verify, but it seemed like many recent cars has:
- Reporting features for brake, gas, steering inputs, a la SNMP
- Computer assisted brake, with a backup linkage
- Fully electronic gas pedal, with a speed sensing cruise control
- Electric/electronic power steering, using a torque/relative deflection sensor
These features are case-by-case:
- Command based "write" access for brake/gas/steering
- Absolute steering position sensor
So a lot of older cars require special spliced cables to fake analog readouts or nonstandard digital links to retrofit a self drive, and newer cars still needs to be purchased with those input features enabled as well.
- Reporting features for brake, gas, steering inputs, a la SNMP
- Computer assisted brake, with a backup linkage
- Fully electronic gas pedal, with a speed sensing cruise control
- Electric/electronic power steering, using a torque/relative deflection sensor
These features are case-by-case:
- Command based "write" access for brake/gas/steering
- Absolute steering position sensor
So a lot of older cars require special spliced cables to fake analog readouts or nonstandard digital links to retrofit a self drive, and newer cars still needs to be purchased with those input features enabled as well.
It may interest you to know that's Comma.ai's whole "business model:" https://github.com/commaai/openpilot#what-is-openpilot
AKA autonomous driving startup.
The electronic-based acceleration pedal started malfunctioning in my car merely 4 years after purchase, and required a fairly costly repair... Maybe I was unlucky.
Is the source code for electronic throttle control systems typically made available to customers?
I grew up as a car enthusiast during the transition to things being computer controlled, and for car modifying purposes it was fantastic. Relatively simple to plug my laptop in, monitor air fuel ratios, make adjustments as I see fit. Didn't have to rely on any third party or anything.
However more rececnt trends see OEMs trying to prevent you from doing this kind of thing, in the same way that Apple, John Deere, and others try to prevent you from repairing or modifying or repairing your own hardware. This makes me very sad, because the future should be a utopia for people who whish to repair or modify their own hardware and instead we head towards dystopia, for no good reason!
However more rececnt trends see OEMs trying to prevent you from doing this kind of thing, in the same way that Apple, John Deere, and others try to prevent you from repairing or modifying or repairing your own hardware. This makes me very sad, because the future should be a utopia for people who whish to repair or modify their own hardware and instead we head towards dystopia, for no good reason!
This is not limited to EVs - several "old school" manufacturers have not only put uplinks in their cars (obviously just so that the user can do fancy things remotely /s), but also introduced rental options, pay-as-you-go extras (BMW had a "pay 5k, get a few extra kW for a weekend"-thing once, don't know if it still exists).
Skoda at least (I expect all of the newer VWs, Audis, Seats, ...) use the built in mobile uplink to gather massive amounts of data about usage, e.g. how often the car is "pushed hard", or driven dangerously. Nobody knows exactly how they will use that, maybe to limit guarantees? - but if the cars is yours and yours only, this shouldn't matter, right? It shouldn't happen in the first place. Well, not anymore I guess.
The manufacturers will not limit these possibilities to a certain drive-train technology - why should they? It is also not limited to "newer companies", all of them will do it. Further, if the customer likes these models, the manufacturers (and increasingly more of them) will expand their offering.
Heck, the majority of cars on the street where I live are not legally owned anyway, they are all leased and people like that a lot.
Skoda at least (I expect all of the newer VWs, Audis, Seats, ...) use the built in mobile uplink to gather massive amounts of data about usage, e.g. how often the car is "pushed hard", or driven dangerously. Nobody knows exactly how they will use that, maybe to limit guarantees? - but if the cars is yours and yours only, this shouldn't matter, right? It shouldn't happen in the first place. Well, not anymore I guess.
The manufacturers will not limit these possibilities to a certain drive-train technology - why should they? It is also not limited to "newer companies", all of them will do it. Further, if the customer likes these models, the manufacturers (and increasingly more of them) will expand their offering.
Heck, the majority of cars on the street where I live are not legally owned anyway, they are all leased and people like that a lot.
> use the built in mobile uplink to gather massive amounts of data about usage, e.g. how often the car is "pushed hard", or driven dangerously. Nobody knows exactly how they will use that, maybe to limit guarantees? - but if the cars is yours and yours only, this shouldn't matter, right?
Why wouldn't it matter? About 10 years ago, a friend bought a brand new VW Polo and after 2000km ended up with warped brake discs. When he went to the VW dealer to have them replaced under warranty, the dealer refused, claiming that the warrant only covers stuff like engine and bodywork and not consumable parts like brake discs, and also that brake discs should not warp under normal usage, which is one of the conditions of the warranty to be valid, and since they are warped, the dealer claimed that the owner mush have been driving his car outside of the normal usage specs the car is rated for and under which the warranty applies. I guess that telemetry will help manufacturers validate or invalidate warranty claims.
Why wouldn't it matter? About 10 years ago, a friend bought a brand new VW Polo and after 2000km ended up with warped brake discs. When he went to the VW dealer to have them replaced under warranty, the dealer refused, claiming that the warrant only covers stuff like engine and bodywork and not consumable parts like brake discs, and also that brake discs should not warp under normal usage, which is one of the conditions of the warranty to be valid, and since they are warped, the dealer claimed that the owner mush have been driving his car outside of the normal usage specs the car is rated for and under which the warranty applies. I guess that telemetry will help manufacturers validate or invalidate warranty claims.
> I guess that telemetry will help manufacturers validate or invalidate warranty claims.
I have a feeling this will be one of those one-sided advantages, the manufacturer will review the telemetry and only use the data if it assists them in denying a warranty claim.
I have a feeling this will be one of those one-sided advantages, the manufacturer will review the telemetry and only use the data if it assists them in denying a warranty claim.
> warrant only covers stuff like engine and bodywork and not consumable parts like brake discs
You could have stopped there. After this point, there's really no more to be said.
You could have stopped there. After this point, there's really no more to be said.
>After this point, there's really no more to be said.
Really? Because if I buy a brand new car and end up with warped brake discs after just 2000km, and the dealer refuses to fix it under warranty, I will raise hell regardless of what technicality the dealer/manufacturer will uses to justify not fixing it.
Really? Because if I buy a brand new car and end up with warped brake discs after just 2000km, and the dealer refuses to fix it under warranty, I will raise hell regardless of what technicality the dealer/manufacturer will uses to justify not fixing it.
You're certainly free to do so, but at that point you're really arguing about what should and should not be covered. Wear items like brake discs and windshield wipers generally aren't.
Brake rotors often outlive the car they're in. There's no reason not to assume this was due to faulty manufacturing. It's not normal wear and tear, nor something that "just happens" even under high performance track driving.
I've never seen and would never expect a brake rotor to outlive the car! A brake rotor is a regular wear item, you'll replace it many times over the life of a car.
That said, ruined in 2000km is ridiculous, certainly a manufacturing defect.
That said, ruined in 2000km is ridiculous, certainly a manufacturing defect.
Warped at 2k probably means they rode the brakes down a mountain, usually a particular driving style.
> Brake rotors often outlive the car they're in....[not] something that "just happens" even under high performance track driving.
That's laughable. I have to replace rotors on a semi-regular basis. It's absolutely normal if you drive your car hard even on the street.
That's laughable. I have to replace rotors on a semi-regular basis. It's absolutely normal if you drive your car hard even on the street.
He might have a point though. I remember the Nissan service writer telling me that if I went somewhere other than the dealership to get my brakes done, not to let them talk me into getting new rotors without seeing the measurement. Apparently Nissan OEM rotors are fairly thick and have plenty of "margin" before they get down to the wear limit.
He turned out to be right: I only recently replaced the rotors at 150,000 miles whereas at 100,000 miles, my Saturn and Ford had already had at least one rotor replacement. Since a lot of people will get a new car before the old one hits 100k, they may think of rotors as something that never needs replacing.
OTOH: those Nissan rotors were an absolute bitch to get off by that point. I was wearing hearing protection while wailing away at them with a 5lb hammer for at least 10 minutes each before they came loose.
He turned out to be right: I only recently replaced the rotors at 150,000 miles whereas at 100,000 miles, my Saturn and Ford had already had at least one rotor replacement. Since a lot of people will get a new car before the old one hits 100k, they may think of rotors as something that never needs replacing.
OTOH: those Nissan rotors were an absolute bitch to get off by that point. I was wearing hearing protection while wailing away at them with a 5lb hammer for at least 10 minutes each before they came loose.
It's a matter of proportion. One does not expect brake disks to wear after 2,000km, that's plain defective. If it were 50,000km I'd agree that's more reasonable for a wear item.
The issue wasn't that the discs were worn down after 2000km it was that they were "warped".
Warping is generally caused not by the rotor warping/bending so much as uneven wear or brake material deposits. This most frequently happens because the system is driven beyond design limits and overheated to the point that the pad material bonds with the rotor. It is also possible that this is a factory related issue and not overheating, but presumably this would have been noted on the test drive, and not after 2,000 km of gas.
If I'm the dealer, I ask myself which is more likely: 1. that my delivery inspection mechanic and the customer failed to notice a braking system issue at the time of sale, or 2. that a customer with a new car took it out and pushed it to the limits?
Warping is generally caused not by the rotor warping/bending so much as uneven wear or brake material deposits. This most frequently happens because the system is driven beyond design limits and overheated to the point that the pad material bonds with the rotor. It is also possible that this is a factory related issue and not overheating, but presumably this would have been noted on the test drive, and not after 2,000 km of gas.
If I'm the dealer, I ask myself which is more likely: 1. that my delivery inspection mechanic and the customer failed to notice a braking system issue at the time of sale, or 2. that a customer with a new car took it out and pushed it to the limits?
Exactly, fundamentally it's a piece of cast iron, cracking and other failure modes could be attributable to defects, but warping generally means overheating of the braking system.
I completely get that under normal operation brake disks should not be unusable after 2,000km. My point is simply that it's not expected to be a warranty item, so don't be surprised if the dealer hides behind that.
Who gets to see the telemetry?
In Massachusetts, access to this telemetry by local repair shops is required by our new right-to-repair law. Some manufactures have made a fuss, but hopefully other states follow.
Data about how I drive my car?
Laughs in GDPR
Laughs in GDPR
I love that I might just be able to withdraw consent on my new car, instead of fishing around in the engine block to cut the antenna. Then again, I'm probably going to anyway, for good measure.
GDPR might have some teeth if it was actually seriously enforced. That's yet to be the case.
https://www.enforcementtracker.com/
Sorry, is several million Euros in fines this year, a billion over its lifetime not toothy enough for you? They're going after big players, tiny companies, even individuals.
From personal experience, getting access to data about me is usually fast, demanding they delete it appears to work, and my own complaints to the national regulatory body have resulted in me getting my own way.
GDPR is great.
Sorry, is several million Euros in fines this year, a billion over its lifetime not toothy enough for you? They're going after big players, tiny companies, even individuals.
From personal experience, getting access to data about me is usually fast, demanding they delete it appears to work, and my own complaints to the national regulatory body have resulted in me getting my own way.
GDPR is great.
> a billion over its lifetime not toothy enough for you
> They're going after big players
Don't you see the oxymoron in here? A billion is a non-event for a single one of the big players making their money on stalking, and you're saying that a billion over its lifetime (4 years) across all companies is toothy? Come on.
> my own complaints to the national regulatory body have resulted in me getting my own way.
I'm glad it works for you, and I guess you must live in a country where the regulator isn't completely useless. In my case, in the UK with the ICO, the best I managed to get out of them is a few letters which the company promptly ignored just like they ignored my own query, and this non-resolution still required significant admin work for me (just so they don't have an excuse to close your complaint on a technicality - despite being handed evidence of a GDPR breach).
> They're going after big players
Don't you see the oxymoron in here? A billion is a non-event for a single one of the big players making their money on stalking, and you're saying that a billion over its lifetime (4 years) across all companies is toothy? Come on.
> my own complaints to the national regulatory body have resulted in me getting my own way.
I'm glad it works for you, and I guess you must live in a country where the regulator isn't completely useless. In my case, in the UK with the ICO, the best I managed to get out of them is a few letters which the company promptly ignored just like they ignored my own query, and this non-resolution still required significant admin work for me (just so they don't have an excuse to close your complaint on a technicality - despite being handed evidence of a GDPR breach).
> Heck, the majority of cars on the street where I live are not legally owned anyway, they are all leased and people like that a lot.
It's not the cars that are becoming less car-person centric that's the root of the so-called problem. It's the people themselves that are becoming less car-centric. As we continue to have more and more people in cities (growth outside large cities is basically nil) we need cars less and less. That means ultimately that we care very little about cars. We lease them to get rid of them as soon as possible, we want the least amount of trouble versus the easiest trouble to fix, etc.
It's not the cars, it's the people.
It's not the cars that are becoming less car-person centric that's the root of the so-called problem. It's the people themselves that are becoming less car-centric. As we continue to have more and more people in cities (growth outside large cities is basically nil) we need cars less and less. That means ultimately that we care very little about cars. We lease them to get rid of them as soon as possible, we want the least amount of trouble versus the easiest trouble to fix, etc.
It's not the cars, it's the people.
[deleted]
Man, what a crap article. I'd even go as far as to use the word "clickbait" because of the unnecessary use of the word "electric", because little of the article is specific to electric vehicles. But let's dig into a few highlights...
Cars now use an ETC (electronic throttle control) managed by a computer, as is just about everything else on engines these days. Naturally, this makes vehicles more difficult to repair...
Citation needed. Might be more expensive, but swapping out the broken module the OBD reader told you to swap is probably not going to be that hard. The actual module is probably under the dash near the pedal, but that's probably the extent of the difficulty. And that's assuming that you ever need to replace it. You'll probably sell the car first. Throttle cables, OTOH...
As technology in our cars continues to advance, repairability and maintenance are becoming a real issue. Just ask any old-school mechanic
No, you go ask any old-school mechanic, because this old-school mechanic who quit professionally turning wrenches in the '90s sez "hurray!" to our electronically-controlled low-maintenance overlords. Because I'd rather not spend another evening replacing a set of ignition points so that I can get to work in the morning. We drive our vehicles until the wheels fall off, but for those that lease a vehicle for three years, my guess is you're not doing jack maintenance-wise before the lease is up (you will have to change oil on an ICE).
What happens when your fancy electric vehicle stops getting software updates.
Ooooooh, scary question! It'll be just like TFA's phone example: hackers will hack my car!!11! No, wait...I know the answer to this one because our Nissan Leaf quit getting updates when the 3G was shut off, and I've not taken it back to the dealer in several years. And the answer is...nothing happens. I mean, what's the assumed answer to what the author must think to be a rhetorical question?
Cars now use an ETC (electronic throttle control) managed by a computer, as is just about everything else on engines these days. Naturally, this makes vehicles more difficult to repair...
Citation needed. Might be more expensive, but swapping out the broken module the OBD reader told you to swap is probably not going to be that hard. The actual module is probably under the dash near the pedal, but that's probably the extent of the difficulty. And that's assuming that you ever need to replace it. You'll probably sell the car first. Throttle cables, OTOH...
As technology in our cars continues to advance, repairability and maintenance are becoming a real issue. Just ask any old-school mechanic
No, you go ask any old-school mechanic, because this old-school mechanic who quit professionally turning wrenches in the '90s sez "hurray!" to our electronically-controlled low-maintenance overlords. Because I'd rather not spend another evening replacing a set of ignition points so that I can get to work in the morning. We drive our vehicles until the wheels fall off, but for those that lease a vehicle for three years, my guess is you're not doing jack maintenance-wise before the lease is up (you will have to change oil on an ICE).
What happens when your fancy electric vehicle stops getting software updates.
Ooooooh, scary question! It'll be just like TFA's phone example: hackers will hack my car!!11! No, wait...I know the answer to this one because our Nissan Leaf quit getting updates when the 3G was shut off, and I've not taken it back to the dealer in several years. And the answer is...nothing happens. I mean, what's the assumed answer to what the author must think to be a rhetorical question?
I'm more worried about pressing the accelerator and getting an error message pop-up like "it looks like you're using an ad blocker..."
That can theoretically already happen, has nothing to do with whether a car is electric, and we already deal with something kind of similar known as "limp home mode"
It has nothing to do with the electric drive train, but electric cars are way worse in that regard. I blame Tesla for it.
Tesla essentially made the first electric car people wanted to drive. It did that with a clear inspiration from the smartphone world, hiding and locking away all the ugly internals with a slick touchscreen interface. Of course other manufacturers are going to follow the most successful player, but at the same time they don't want to alienate their already established (ICE) consumer base and its network of dealers and mechanics.
Electric cars are a clean slate and they can afford to be bold with anti-features, Tesla have shown that they can get away with it.
Tesla essentially made the first electric car people wanted to drive. It did that with a clear inspiration from the smartphone world, hiding and locking away all the ugly internals with a slick touchscreen interface. Of course other manufacturers are going to follow the most successful player, but at the same time they don't want to alienate their already established (ICE) consumer base and its network of dealers and mechanics.
Electric cars are a clean slate and they can afford to be bold with anti-features, Tesla have shown that they can get away with it.
Please drink verification can...
The mechanism to disconnect the power cord is patented, and the patent is not licensed to the end user. Using it to disconnect the power violates the patent and risks lawsuits. A copy-protection scheme is based on the AC signal sent through the power line. Cutting the power cable or turning off power is a circumvention that violates the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. Bashing the screen in creates a derivative work that infringes on copyrights held by the broadcaster and producer.
> No, wait...I know the answer to this one because our Nissan Leaf quit getting updates when the 3G was shut off, and I've not taken it back to the dealer in several years. And the answer is...nothing happens.
With your specific example, nothing happened, which is the best case scenario, yes?
The problem is the potential for inconvenience and disaster is there. I do not look forward to the day when my auto manufacturer forgets to renew a domain name and all of a sudden every single car by that maker cannot start its engine because it can't connect to HQ.
It's a contrived example, sure, but it's not out of the realm of possibility.
With your specific example, nothing happened, which is the best case scenario, yes?
The problem is the potential for inconvenience and disaster is there. I do not look forward to the day when my auto manufacturer forgets to renew a domain name and all of a sudden every single car by that maker cannot start its engine because it can't connect to HQ.
It's a contrived example, sure, but it's not out of the realm of possibility.
It's not as contrived as you think. Some Tesla owners couldn't get into their car on the latest AWS outage because the app to unlock it stopped working and they didn't think to bring the keys, because the app always works. How long before Tesla or somebody else gets a genius idea that since nobody carries around keys anyway, why make them at all?
> Might be more expensive, but swapping out the broken module the OBD reader told you to swap is probably not going to be that hard.
Where are you going to get that replacement module (which is entirely proprietary) after the dealer is no longer selling them?
When the throttle cable on my 1950s car snaps I can simply get a new cable from a thousand places. A cable is a cable.
A hundred years from now, I confidently bet that there will be a lot more still-running cars from the 1950s-1990s than any newer ones because the newer ones become quickly impossible to fix as soon as the factory and dealer stop carrying those model-specific propietary parts.
Where are you going to get that replacement module (which is entirely proprietary) after the dealer is no longer selling them?
When the throttle cable on my 1950s car snaps I can simply get a new cable from a thousand places. A cable is a cable.
A hundred years from now, I confidently bet that there will be a lot more still-running cars from the 1950s-1990s than any newer ones because the newer ones become quickly impossible to fix as soon as the factory and dealer stop carrying those model-specific propietary parts.
The old cars (40s and 50s) in Cuba for example are literally held together with ducktape, adobo, and chicken wire. If they even have an engine it's whatever they could find: lawn mower, motorcyle, or tractor engine.
The cars from the 50s were incredible polluters. Part of the reason we even have emission standards was because of how much NOx and unburnt fuel came out the tailpipe. When the last one bites the dust I'll miss it as much as I miss a stage coach.
The cars from the 50s were incredible polluters. Part of the reason we even have emission standards was because of how much NOx and unburnt fuel came out the tailpipe. When the last one bites the dust I'll miss it as much as I miss a stage coach.
A few counter points:
- Loads of aftermarket conversions of existing cars to EVs are done by third parties using a wide range of components from OEMs, custom built stuff, or scrapped EVs. E.g. Tesla batteries have a high value for this. Not that hard apparently.
- There are companies providing aftermarket upgrades to Teslas and other EVs to e.g. install custom batteries. For example, Our Next Energy (One) has installed their batteries in Teslas and other vehicles: https://cleantechnica.com/2022/01/05/our-next-energy-tests-i.... So, it's not true you are dependent on the OEM for this. Same with many older EVs that are still servicable. E.g. the original Nissan Leaf from twelve years ago can be equipped with after market battery replacements.
- Tesla recently urged owners of older models to come in to replace their 3G modules with 4G replacements to keep the over the air updates and other online stuff going. The cars work fine without that but obviously lose some functionality as 3G networks are being shut down.
- ICE vehicles are similarly software intensive. It's just that most vendors are a bit behind on update procedures and the update procedure generally sucks. They're busy switching to EVs instead of developing new ICE vehicles, so there's a lot of effectively unsupported software in the field that will never get serviced even if it is full of bugs. Which is of course common because most car manufacturers aren't very good at creating software. It's not a problem if the car keeps on running.
- Lots of things are software intensive these days. This is not unique to EVs. Why single those out?
- Loads of aftermarket conversions of existing cars to EVs are done by third parties using a wide range of components from OEMs, custom built stuff, or scrapped EVs. E.g. Tesla batteries have a high value for this. Not that hard apparently.
- There are companies providing aftermarket upgrades to Teslas and other EVs to e.g. install custom batteries. For example, Our Next Energy (One) has installed their batteries in Teslas and other vehicles: https://cleantechnica.com/2022/01/05/our-next-energy-tests-i.... So, it's not true you are dependent on the OEM for this. Same with many older EVs that are still servicable. E.g. the original Nissan Leaf from twelve years ago can be equipped with after market battery replacements.
- Tesla recently urged owners of older models to come in to replace their 3G modules with 4G replacements to keep the over the air updates and other online stuff going. The cars work fine without that but obviously lose some functionality as 3G networks are being shut down.
- ICE vehicles are similarly software intensive. It's just that most vendors are a bit behind on update procedures and the update procedure generally sucks. They're busy switching to EVs instead of developing new ICE vehicles, so there's a lot of effectively unsupported software in the field that will never get serviced even if it is full of bugs. Which is of course common because most car manufacturers aren't very good at creating software. It's not a problem if the car keeps on running.
- Lots of things are software intensive these days. This is not unique to EVs. Why single those out?
"- Lots of things are software intensive these days. This is not unique to EVs. Why single those out?"
Very much this. The description in the article sounds like owning a laptop vs a desktop pc. People don't care that they can't upgrade their car if they're just going to get a new one every three years anyway that has better features and twice the range. It's not how I buy cars, but the majority of car buyers don't buy cars like I buy cars.
Very much this. The description in the article sounds like owning a laptop vs a desktop pc. People don't care that they can't upgrade their car if they're just going to get a new one every three years anyway that has better features and twice the range. It's not how I buy cars, but the majority of car buyers don't buy cars like I buy cars.
Yeah, I think IF (and that's not a huge if) L-Sulfer, Solid State, etc pan out, then the conversion kits may get super cheap, or a flood of cheaper cars without the blings and bloops will hit the market.
Right now the price point of EVs is in the Luxury segment, and these people have never cared about the long term aspects of car ownership. Old cars are low status cars, so they unload them.
The drivetrain cost of EVs is probably under ICE in Tesla (they aren't pricing them like that, they are milking the market right now), and probably will in main auto in a few years, and it will plummet from there as economies of scale hit the OEM component makers. EVs are just batteries, 1-4 motors, and a control. system. Brakes for extra stopping power over regenerative braking if you want.
So the lower end will start to blossom in the next few years.
A lot of right to repair is to keep it under warranty. That's a legit antitrust concern between everyman mechanic and the auto makers. After warranty, if there's enough cars, there will be people that can fix them. And again, it's less components.
Right now the price point of EVs is in the Luxury segment, and these people have never cared about the long term aspects of car ownership. Old cars are low status cars, so they unload them.
The drivetrain cost of EVs is probably under ICE in Tesla (they aren't pricing them like that, they are milking the market right now), and probably will in main auto in a few years, and it will plummet from there as economies of scale hit the OEM component makers. EVs are just batteries, 1-4 motors, and a control. system. Brakes for extra stopping power over regenerative braking if you want.
So the lower end will start to blossom in the next few years.
A lot of right to repair is to keep it under warranty. That's a legit antitrust concern between everyman mechanic and the auto makers. After warranty, if there's enough cars, there will be people that can fix them. And again, it's less components.
I don't own such a complicated car contract so I don't understand: if you don't own the car, how can there be an aftermarket at all? Don't I have to give it back when I'm done with it, so I have no car for the aftermarket? I think I severely misunderstand one of the sides, because it doesn't make sense.
You own the car de jure (you have the right to sell it to someone else), but not de facto (the car manufacturer exercises direct and indirect control over how you use the car, undermines your basic human rights by spying on you, can destroy/permanently disable the product).
Won't these Teslas also possibly loose the ability to super charge eventually as all the verification (certificates) stuff is on the car?
I don't think that's necessarily an issue. Tesla allows other vendors at their charging infrastructure. You might lose your warranty though.
This is not the case everywhere yet, and Tesla does ban some modified (Tesla branded) cars from their chargers.
It's not for entirely malicious reasons. Those super chargers run at very high watts (250 KW) in some cases and people with hobo repaired batteries could cause some serious fires if they could just plug into the chargers.
Tesla does need to have approved vendors at some point, but I definitely understand their logic in blocking access.
Tesla does need to have approved vendors at some point, but I definitely understand their logic in blocking access.
Tesla disables supercharging for any totaled vehicle, as they want to reduce the likelihood that a Tesla catches on fire at a supercharger and they're put on blast on the news for the next week.
> most car manufacturers aren't very good at creating software
They're been doing it for decades at this point. Which part of it aren't they good at?
I'm not in the automotive industry, but the code I write has to conform to MISRA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Industry_Software_Reliab...) guidelines. I think they've learned a few things by now.
They're been doing it for decades at this point. Which part of it aren't they good at?
I'm not in the automotive industry, but the code I write has to conform to MISRA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Industry_Software_Reliab...) guidelines. I think they've learned a few things by now.
Have you seen the report on the Toyota source code?
http://www.safetyresearch.net/Library/BarrSlides_FINAL_SCRUB...
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9449559
"In a nutshell, the team led by Barr Group found: “a systematic software malfunction in the Main CPU that opens the throttle without operator action and continues to properly control fuel injection and ignition” that is not reliably detected by any fail-safe."
And the black box could fail to record any braking input in such cases.
That's not good! People died! And you would have a hard time convincing a jury that the driver was not at fault, if not for the thorough independent code review.
And that's the safety critical stuff, now imagine all the code for the infotainment systems.
http://www.safetyresearch.net/Library/BarrSlides_FINAL_SCRUB...
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9449559
"In a nutshell, the team led by Barr Group found: “a systematic software malfunction in the Main CPU that opens the throttle without operator action and continues to properly control fuel injection and ignition” that is not reliably detected by any fail-safe."
And the black box could fail to record any braking input in such cases.
That's not good! People died! And you would have a hard time convincing a jury that the driver was not at fault, if not for the thorough independent code review.
And that's the safety critical stuff, now imagine all the code for the infotainment systems.
Based on my experiences with a variety of OEM infotainment systems over the last decade, I would say car manufacturers still have an awful lot to learn about building software that does not suck.
Physician, heal thyself.
How do you expect automotive to not suck when the rest of the software world delights in it?
How do you expect automotive to not suck when the rest of the software world delights in it?
> What happens when your fancy electric vehicle stops getting software updates
Who cares?
Cars don't normally get updates after they leave the factory, unless you take them to a dealership - usually because there's a recall. Tesla is changing this, and expect other companies to follow suit.
But there's really zero reason why this is going to be confined to electric vehicles. The engine literally makes no difference. It was historically easier on EVs because, given that the engine is not always rotating, belts were not feasible. So they had electric steering (and other things like electric climate control). Regenerative breaking meant that you had to delegate braking action to the computer too.
However, ICE vehicles already use an ECU, so engine is already software based. Then, we have ABS and lane assist (and adaptive cruise control, etc) which means that some computer can control the throttle, brakes and steering too.
Other features like infotainment are completely orthogonal to the drive train.
> For now, we’ll continue to buy cars that are increasingly more difficult and costly to repair
Seems like the author hasn't bought an ICE vehicle recently. They are all more difficult to repair. Even things like replacing the infotainment system are no longer feasible since it's all integrated.
This article sounds like FUD against EVs.
Who cares?
Cars don't normally get updates after they leave the factory, unless you take them to a dealership - usually because there's a recall. Tesla is changing this, and expect other companies to follow suit.
But there's really zero reason why this is going to be confined to electric vehicles. The engine literally makes no difference. It was historically easier on EVs because, given that the engine is not always rotating, belts were not feasible. So they had electric steering (and other things like electric climate control). Regenerative breaking meant that you had to delegate braking action to the computer too.
However, ICE vehicles already use an ECU, so engine is already software based. Then, we have ABS and lane assist (and adaptive cruise control, etc) which means that some computer can control the throttle, brakes and steering too.
Other features like infotainment are completely orthogonal to the drive train.
> For now, we’ll continue to buy cars that are increasingly more difficult and costly to repair
Seems like the author hasn't bought an ICE vehicle recently. They are all more difficult to repair. Even things like replacing the infotainment system are no longer feasible since it's all integrated.
This article sounds like FUD against EVs.
> Who cares?
Anyone that realizes these cars are a security nightmare? Wifi and cellular on a car! Brilliant!
The fact that ransomware hasn't yet hit cars is as shocking as it is inevitable. Russia literally disabled all ViaSat phones before invading. Telsas literally download firmware at will when a centralized server tells them to!
Edit: actually, looks like the attacks are already underway! https://fortune.com/2021/03/19/russian-pleads-guilty-ransomw...
Anyone that realizes these cars are a security nightmare? Wifi and cellular on a car! Brilliant!
The fact that ransomware hasn't yet hit cars is as shocking as it is inevitable. Russia literally disabled all ViaSat phones before invading. Telsas literally download firmware at will when a centralized server tells them to!
Edit: actually, looks like the attacks are already underway! https://fortune.com/2021/03/19/russian-pleads-guilty-ransomw...
Clearly It is impossible to secure anything, there will always be some 0 day, DoS, etc, so air gapping is the answer and then you only have to worry about attackers that are physically present.
>Telsas literally download firmware at will when a centralized server tells them to!
No they don't, you're prompted to download software updates, they aren't automatic.
No they don't, you're prompted to download software updates, they aren't automatic.
That depends on a flag in the update response.
But ofc that’s just one remote attack avenue.
But ofc that’s just one remote attack avenue.
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From an environmental problem there is an interesting perspective on lending appliances.
Let's look at washing machines: (or any other appliance) If you buy a washing machine there is limited incentive for the manufacturer to make it repairable or easy to dismantle and recycle the parts. Also for the owners there are incentives to run it as long as they can, while new, resource (energy, water, ...) efficient replacements will come out.
If you turn this around and make it a rental system where you buy 1000 runs or so the producer for one is incentived to make sure they have as little service cases as possible, so the machine has to be robust enough for that. And then when taking it back they have an interest to recycle the parts as good as they can since it's suddenly their problem and people get new or refurbished machines regularly which reduces resource usage.
Switching to such a model ain't easy, but interesting to me nonetheless.
Let's look at washing machines: (or any other appliance) If you buy a washing machine there is limited incentive for the manufacturer to make it repairable or easy to dismantle and recycle the parts. Also for the owners there are incentives to run it as long as they can, while new, resource (energy, water, ...) efficient replacements will come out.
If you turn this around and make it a rental system where you buy 1000 runs or so the producer for one is incentived to make sure they have as little service cases as possible, so the machine has to be robust enough for that. And then when taking it back they have an interest to recycle the parts as good as they can since it's suddenly their problem and people get new or refurbished machines regularly which reduces resource usage.
Switching to such a model ain't easy, but interesting to me nonetheless.
Hm, I think this reasoning is not always true.
The manufacturer could make a cost/benefit-analysis, concluding that building a machine that lasts approx. these 1000 runs but no longer, and paying for recycling afterwards is cheaper than building something that lasts and is recyclable.
Also, replacing it every ~200 cycles with just another cheaply built throwaway-machine could also become a viable business model. Why should the manufacturer care, if it becomes cheaper?
You could also make the manufacturer pay for recycling anyway - which is the case in the EU for several device classes IIRC, no need for a rental model to establish that. For some devices this means that the manufacturer has to take it back when you are done with it. The problem of course is that this is directly paid for by the customer - and by itself does not change anything.
But my argument is that it wouldn't for the rental model either.
The manufacturer could make a cost/benefit-analysis, concluding that building a machine that lasts approx. these 1000 runs but no longer, and paying for recycling afterwards is cheaper than building something that lasts and is recyclable.
Also, replacing it every ~200 cycles with just another cheaply built throwaway-machine could also become a viable business model. Why should the manufacturer care, if it becomes cheaper?
You could also make the manufacturer pay for recycling anyway - which is the case in the EU for several device classes IIRC, no need for a rental model to establish that. For some devices this means that the manufacturer has to take it back when you are done with it. The problem of course is that this is directly paid for by the customer - and by itself does not change anything.
But my argument is that it wouldn't for the rental model either.
The machine could send back diagnostic information, and then maintenance or replacement could be scheduled with the "owner".
For example the lint filter could have a sensor and owner could be punished if they didn't clean that :)
Machines wear unevenly and maintenance could prolong the lifespan considerably.
For example the lint filter could have a sensor and owner could be punished if they didn't clean that :)
Machines wear unevenly and maintenance could prolong the lifespan considerably.
Why going full orwell punishing, when it could simply beep some sense into the owner??? Really folks, sometimes the software industry wants to offer the most weird solutions... (and sometimes they even get implemented)
If you own the machine and have rented it to someone, with a promise that it's working and being maintained, yet the renter doesn't clean the lint filter even when the machine beeps, you have to send a maintenance guy to clean that, costing money.
True, but it could very well be the opposite: financial incentives can encourage churning through equipment even faster.
Another problem: the Global South is a huge user of second hard stuff (car, phones, everything).
"smart" devices kill the second hand market on purpose, to prevent reuse, leading to way more consumption and pollution.
Never trust market forces to solve environmental problems.
Another problem: the Global South is a huge user of second hard stuff (car, phones, everything).
"smart" devices kill the second hand market on purpose, to prevent reuse, leading to way more consumption and pollution.
Never trust market forces to solve environmental problems.
I recently thought about the same thing.
The problem with rental system is user now has less incentive to treat rented item well. But overall I think it still leads to less production and less resource usage.
The problem with rental system is user now has less incentive to treat rented item well. But overall I think it still leads to less production and less resource usage.
we could just pass regulations to make products repairable.
This is the answer, IMO. Trying to rely on the "invisible hand of the market" (aka people's greed) to do anything specific is an exercise in pain, in every possible way.
Making it repairable.means that the old inefficient machine works longer, while mire efficient technology exists.
(And yes, right to repair is important as well, no doubt!)
Good! If people want to replace their older machine, they can do so with the latest tech, which by law is also repairable.
… and sooner or later these 1000 runs will shrinkflate to 900, then 800 runs for the same price…
but if production and rental businesses get separated, we are back to square one.
A rental company buying tons of machines and which has to calculate disposal costs has a different negotiating power over a number of individuals buying.
Also a big rental company can put pressure on the OEM.
> In 2020, someone bought a used Tesla advertised with autopilot and full self-driving features, which at the time cost $8,000 for the previous owner to unlock and enjoy. Unfortunately, the new owner didn’t get those features, as Tesla disabled them once it changed hands.
Note that this is not exclusive to cars. Presonus did this to me when I purchased a StudioLive rack mixer. The previous owner had access to the “free” DSP programs it has built-in to do various effects like compression in the device itself. When he switched the registration to me, those were disabled and I’d have to pay to unlock them, because as Presonus said, they were only free as a promo offer to the initial purchaser and non-transferable, despite other parts of the licensed software being transferable. To add insult, that pack of DSP plugins that run in this thing are the ONLY available plugins, so it’s not like I can get some open-source or third-party ones.
I dislike them so much after this whole interaction that I won’t ever buy their stuff again and will repeat this story to anyone who will listen. I didn’t pay for the plug-in pack a second time, because I refuse to give them more money. I just got an external compressor instead.
Anyway, total BS IMO for manufacturers to disable functionality that the hardware had when new when it changes hands.
Note that this is not exclusive to cars. Presonus did this to me when I purchased a StudioLive rack mixer. The previous owner had access to the “free” DSP programs it has built-in to do various effects like compression in the device itself. When he switched the registration to me, those were disabled and I’d have to pay to unlock them, because as Presonus said, they were only free as a promo offer to the initial purchaser and non-transferable, despite other parts of the licensed software being transferable. To add insult, that pack of DSP plugins that run in this thing are the ONLY available plugins, so it’s not like I can get some open-source or third-party ones.
I dislike them so much after this whole interaction that I won’t ever buy their stuff again and will repeat this story to anyone who will listen. I didn’t pay for the plug-in pack a second time, because I refuse to give them more money. I just got an external compressor instead.
Anyway, total BS IMO for manufacturers to disable functionality that the hardware had when new when it changes hands.
This isn't limited to EV's.
I drive a 20 year old car, my local government is pushing for me to buy a newer one "cos emissions". Which is ridiculous - I drive it infrequently enough that the cost of just making the body of a new car and nothing else would outweigh the savings.
The endgame seems to basically be that I move out of the city, which would be a massive own goal emissions/energy wise because it's far more costly for me to bop around on my own land miles away from services than it is for me to use my car once or twice a week whilst taking public transport most of the time. Perfect is the enemy of the good.
I drive a 20 year old car, my local government is pushing for me to buy a newer one "cos emissions". Which is ridiculous - I drive it infrequently enough that the cost of just making the body of a new car and nothing else would outweigh the savings.
The endgame seems to basically be that I move out of the city, which would be a massive own goal emissions/energy wise because it's far more costly for me to bop around on my own land miles away from services than it is for me to use my car once or twice a week whilst taking public transport most of the time. Perfect is the enemy of the good.
This isn't limited to cars either, but rather many "green" purchases in general. I remember one of my professors in an environmental studies course talking about people replacing all the CFL bulbs in their home with LED ones when they came out, citing energy efficiency reasons. However, if you look at the manufacturing process of the LED bulbs and the disposal of the CFLs, the resulting environmental cost is greater than the power savings attributed to the LEDs (embodied energy/emissions). Obviously Marketing will downplay this impact as they want people to buy the new bulbs and feel good about helping the planet.
The same goes for buying items made of recycled materials, a more power-efficient computer, and so forth. That's great - if you actually need the new item. If you are getting the replacement solely for environmental reasons you have to consider the impact of producing the new item and disposing of the old one before making that call.
The same goes for buying items made of recycled materials, a more power-efficient computer, and so forth. That's great - if you actually need the new item. If you are getting the replacement solely for environmental reasons you have to consider the impact of producing the new item and disposing of the old one before making that call.
> LED bulbs and the disposal of the CFLs, the resulting environmental cost is greater than the power savings
The CFD manufacture and disposal cost are sunken costs - you shouldn't include those in most calculations.
Counter-intuitively for high use situations, the longer the CFD has left to live the more obvious it is to change it sooner to save $ and the environment.
Assuming ① cost in dollars is proportional to environmental cost (edit: for both electricity and LED bulb), ② electricity costs $0.10 per kWh, ③ LED bulbs live as long as CFD bulbs, ④ LED bulb uses 7W whereas CFD uses 14W for the same lumen output, then if CFD has 5000 hours left, you can save $3.50 of electricity. If cost of LED is reasonably less than $3.50, it is obvious it makes sense to replace CFD with LED.
If the bulb would never need to be replaced (examples: very low usage; you are moving out soon; or house is going to be demolished before bulb is replaced) then it may make sense to leave a CFD in place.
The price of the LED is an investment with a payback period, so if you can't afford it or you have better returns for that investment elsewhere then you shouldn't replace the CFD.
If your electricity comes from your own renewables, then the calculation is different again. Although note that in most countries nearly 100% of your reduced electricity usage will result in a nearly 100% reduction in non-renewables like gas or coal (even if your country is say 80% renewables). Marginal generation and usage matters.
If you can find a better source than your professor, I would be interested.
The CFD manufacture and disposal cost are sunken costs - you shouldn't include those in most calculations.
Counter-intuitively for high use situations, the longer the CFD has left to live the more obvious it is to change it sooner to save $ and the environment.
Assuming ① cost in dollars is proportional to environmental cost (edit: for both electricity and LED bulb), ② electricity costs $0.10 per kWh, ③ LED bulbs live as long as CFD bulbs, ④ LED bulb uses 7W whereas CFD uses 14W for the same lumen output, then if CFD has 5000 hours left, you can save $3.50 of electricity. If cost of LED is reasonably less than $3.50, it is obvious it makes sense to replace CFD with LED.
If the bulb would never need to be replaced (examples: very low usage; you are moving out soon; or house is going to be demolished before bulb is replaced) then it may make sense to leave a CFD in place.
The price of the LED is an investment with a payback period, so if you can't afford it or you have better returns for that investment elsewhere then you shouldn't replace the CFD.
If your electricity comes from your own renewables, then the calculation is different again. Although note that in most countries nearly 100% of your reduced electricity usage will result in a nearly 100% reduction in non-renewables like gas or coal (even if your country is say 80% renewables). Marginal generation and usage matters.
If you can find a better source than your professor, I would be interested.
> The CFD manufacture and disposal cost are sunken costs
Yes but the manufacture and disposal of the LED aren't yet. The calculation you want is whether running the inefficient CFL ends up being better than the energy used in the whole supply chain of manufacturing and shipping the LED bulb.
Switching means spending led_rate + 2 supply_chain costs while keeping your old bulbs means cfl_rate + 1 supply_chain. I'd put money that the latter being better for the environment.
Edit: To the person who downvoted me but didn't reply do tell how literally throwing away a 10W CFL and replacing it with a 6W LED is better for the environment than just using the CFL until it breaks and then buying an LED.
Yes but the manufacture and disposal of the LED aren't yet. The calculation you want is whether running the inefficient CFL ends up being better than the energy used in the whole supply chain of manufacturing and shipping the LED bulb.
Switching means spending led_rate + 2 supply_chain costs while keeping your old bulbs means cfl_rate + 1 supply_chain. I'd put money that the latter being better for the environment.
Edit: To the person who downvoted me but didn't reply do tell how literally throwing away a 10W CFL and replacing it with a 6W LED is better for the environment than just using the CFL until it breaks and then buying an LED.
When environmental savings due to using less electricity exceed the environmental cost of a new bulb, it is better to use a new bulb (with caveats). I carefully explained that literally.
I didn't downvote you (can't downvote replies). I generally downvote people who comment about downvotes (even edits), since it is against HN guidelines. If you get downvotes, the value is in wondering to yourself: why. Not that the person who originally downvoted you is unlikely to reread your comment.
I deserve downvotes for this comment for mentioning downvoting, and perhaps because I went off-topic.
Edit: also IMHO worrying excessively about karma makes for unhealthy conversations.
I didn't downvote you (can't downvote replies). I generally downvote people who comment about downvotes (even edits), since it is against HN guidelines. If you get downvotes, the value is in wondering to yourself: why. Not that the person who originally downvoted you is unlikely to reread your comment.
I deserve downvotes for this comment for mentioning downvoting, and perhaps because I went off-topic.
Edit: also IMHO worrying excessively about karma makes for unhealthy conversations.
Most CFL bulbs for the home were total garbage. The colors were limited and the light was harsh. CFLs in the E26 bulb format ran too hot and the bulb electronic ballasts either smoked out or occasionally caught on fire. My country, France, banned incandescent bulbs early on. The CFL replacements were poor. The LED replacements that followed were significantly better.
This isn't about you specifically. They want old cars to get scrapped so the average emissions goes down even further even quicker. They won't want your car to end up in the hands of someone who will drive it A LOT. Each EV sold is one less ICE sold. The goal is a market of lower emission used cars.
Except my car only has about another 5-10T of CO2 in it before everything fails anyway. This makes no sense, the current set of EV's aren't built to last much longer than ICE cars do.
They will definitely outlast ICE vehicles - except for the battery. We need a better story on that.
When people say electric car will outlast ICE what do they mean exactly? I'm driving 10 y.o. Honda and with my usage I think rubber and plastic trims will fall apart and the body would rust much sooner than its engine or gearbox will fail.
All the parts like upholstery, suspension wear as much on electric as on ICE I would think.
No one replaces those parts, does it mean you'll be driving your electric car till your sit falls through the rusted floor but the engine still runs smooth?
In the rust belt I find that doubtful, bodies and suspension will rot out before a properly maintained ICE fails. That might be different in dry areas though.
> I drive it infrequently enough that the cost of just making the body of a new car and nothing else would outweigh the savings.
Even trashing your working ICE car to buy an EV is a net negative if your car is still running fine. Unless you drive a _lot_, the least polluting car you can get is the one you already have. And that's not even talking about the energy sources used to produce the energy to charge the EV....
What we're witnessing is the last creation of capitalism, aka "green capitalism", but it's still about mindlessly consuming, you just get to feel good about it regardless of the reality.
> For example, a typical medium sized family car will create around 24 tonnes of CO2 during its life cycle, while an electric vehicle (EV) will produce around 18 tonnes over its life. For a battery EV, 46% of its total carbon footprint is generated at the factory, before it has travelled a single mile.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c...
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c...
Even trashing your working ICE car to buy an EV is a net negative if your car is still running fine. Unless you drive a _lot_, the least polluting car you can get is the one you already have. And that's not even talking about the energy sources used to produce the energy to charge the EV....
What we're witnessing is the last creation of capitalism, aka "green capitalism", but it's still about mindlessly consuming, you just get to feel good about it regardless of the reality.
> For example, a typical medium sized family car will create around 24 tonnes of CO2 during its life cycle, while an electric vehicle (EV) will produce around 18 tonnes over its life. For a battery EV, 46% of its total carbon footprint is generated at the factory, before it has travelled a single mile.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c...
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c...
> Even trashing your working ICE car to buy an EV is a net negative
For CO2 absolutely, but for local air quality it makes sense for us all to run out and buy EVs as quickly as possible.
At least in London, air pollution has been a major concern for some time now.
For CO2 absolutely, but for local air quality it makes sense for us all to run out and buy EVs as quickly as possible.
At least in London, air pollution has been a major concern for some time now.
> Even trashing your working ICE car to buy an EV is a net negative
Is anyone really advocating for 'trashing' working vehicles? I thought we proved how dumb that was back in '08...
Is anyone really advocating for 'trashing' working vehicles? I thought we proved how dumb that was back in '08...
It's been my experience that the a car's last small fraction life, much like a person's, are much worse than the preceding by a huge margin.
Seals fail, emissions management devices wear out, fluids start to leak, it's terrible. Constant repairs with uncertain outcome. It's worse for cars.
There's always a scenario where an old car is a perfectly fine alternative, but there are lots of situations where the older car is less safe and emits substantially more than a newer alternative.
"Cash 4 Clunkers" was a disgrace, but mobility and ease of access to transportation are a public good and a utility that should be easily available to all, not just those people who can afford a newer car or people who've got a low mileage volvo 240 in the garage for when they want to go camping.
Seals fail, emissions management devices wear out, fluids start to leak, it's terrible. Constant repairs with uncertain outcome. It's worse for cars.
There's always a scenario where an old car is a perfectly fine alternative, but there are lots of situations where the older car is less safe and emits substantially more than a newer alternative.
"Cash 4 Clunkers" was a disgrace, but mobility and ease of access to transportation are a public good and a utility that should be easily available to all, not just those people who can afford a newer car or people who've got a low mileage volvo 240 in the garage for when they want to go camping.
That last point is a large part of what made C4C such a disgrace. Working cars being destroyed as part of that program rather than being sold into the used market (as would have otherwise happened) served to harm the lower purchase price end of the overall car market (combined new and used).
Right.
My car has 100g/km CO2 emissions. I'd need to drive 10000km or 6500mi to emit a ton of carbon.
But that's like, loads. I use the car for occasional 10-20 mile drives to DIY stores or whatever. I'd need to do that every day for a year to even get close to 1t.
For a new car we're talking 10x that, at minimum.
My car has 100g/km CO2 emissions. I'd need to drive 10000km or 6500mi to emit a ton of carbon.
But that's like, loads. I use the car for occasional 10-20 mile drives to DIY stores or whatever. I'd need to do that every day for a year to even get close to 1t.
For a new car we're talking 10x that, at minimum.
That's why tax should be done for fuel.
You are correct, but to go further, tax and import tariff should be added for any carbon energy source or the products made with those sources. If you tax the source, then that raises carbon energy generation prices, which raise the usage of carbon energy, which raises the price of the things that use that energy. Then you can truly see the costs of things that are made with that energy. Maybe then we'll have more competitive nuclear power or whatever else we can come up with that doesn't use carbon fuel sources. The hard part is ensuring the tax or tariff is bulletproof without loopholes and stuff. Good luck with that.
In the UK it is, we pay something like $8-9 per US gallon.
$7.60/US gallon, assuming £1.539/L (price this afternoon for ordinary petrol at the petrol station I usually go to).
The article tries to make this about EVs, but really this seems to be more about modern cars in general.
Even more general, consumer electronic products.
Companies feel the need to not just earn money when they sell their product, but earn to even more over its whole lifetime. This refocuses their goal into providing products that regularly need some attention, which only they can provide, instead of creating the best product they can before it is sold, and let the customer and third-parties maintain it if necessary.
Companies feel the need to not just earn money when they sell their product, but earn to even more over its whole lifetime. This refocuses their goal into providing products that regularly need some attention, which only they can provide, instead of creating the best product they can before it is sold, and let the customer and third-parties maintain it if necessary.
It's especially problematic for cars to be consumer electronics products, because the lifetime of a car can easily be twenty or thirty years. That's not the expectation for most consumer electronics devices.
Well... they would love to sell you an new one every couple of years!
I know they would and a lot of people buy new cars at that frequency, but the old cars are going to keep getting used by somebody as long as they still function. If the infotainment system is dated and doesn't interoperate with the latest music file formats that's not the end of the world, but if the car has remotely-exploitable security flaws because it has an always-on network connection and the software hasn't been patched in years, that's a whole other problem.
Then there's issues like that one with early versions of the Model S that had a flash chip that wore out prematurely. Tesla's "put everything on one big motherboard" approach is good for reliability and manufacturing because there aren't any connectors to deal with, but it (generally) means you have to replace the whole thing if something breaks.
Then there's issues like that one with early versions of the Model S that had a flash chip that wore out prematurely. Tesla's "put everything on one big motherboard" approach is good for reliability and manufacturing because there aren't any connectors to deal with, but it (generally) means you have to replace the whole thing if something breaks.
Which itself is kind of a problem, especially now that Moore's law has slowed down...
"You will own nothing, and be happy."
Exactly! The problem of "not being able to repair your car by yourself anymore" is already years old and worsened gradually over time. Ok, with "older" (non-Tesla) cars you don't have OTA updates, but you still have lots of electronics for which you need a specialized repair shop. In fact, I would be glad to receive free updates for my 5-year-old Ford Focus. Instead, I have to live with 5 year old maps on the built-in GPS, or go to a dealer and pay $$$ to have them updated.
Just because most of the EVs are software heavy, it doesn't mean that all of them are.
The upcoming Dacia Spring EV is a perfect counter-example.
The upcoming Dacia Spring EV is a perfect counter-example.
So, can anybody recommend an EV that is not a smartphone on wheels, but an actual car that just happens to be electric?
I really would like to get a Tesla, but besides the manufacturing issues (like large gaps between the panels) the IP and data issues are really putting me off.
- Car is always online, gets OTA updates, GPS is always running
- Cameras inside of the car
- Tesla can remotely downgrade or deactivate the car
- Independent mechanics can't repair many things
I really would like to get a Tesla, but besides the manufacturing issues (like large gaps between the panels) the IP and data issues are really putting me off.
- Car is always online, gets OTA updates, GPS is always running
- Cameras inside of the car
- Tesla can remotely downgrade or deactivate the car
- Independent mechanics can't repair many things
I highly recommend Nissan Leaf. I can't speak so much about new ones (though I doubt Nissan's philosophy has changed much), but my 2013 Leaf works just fine. As another commenter pointed out, there are independent garages that can work on them and you can do after market changes. Electric cars in general are not all that complicated; I think the shortage of independent mechanics has more to do with the historical rarity of electric cars. The mechanics will come as the cars come. Unlike most other makes, Nissan also now has more than a decade of experience manufacturing electric cars. In my opinion, it shows.
I'll vouch for the Leaf too.
Drawbacks are: really hot climates will mess up the battery due to lack of active cooling. Really cold climates require the cold weather package for the battery warmer. Nissan doesn't really have a good story when the battery needs replacement - but maybe third party shops will by then.
If you do have QuickCharging, it uses ChaDeMo, which is dying. But it's still commonplace and will be for a while.
Other than that, I don't think about maintenance (maybe tire rotation and cabin filter?). No need to think when the next oil change is due. Registration renewal doesn't require a smog check. No OTA updates (both a blessing and a curse). It works as a normal vehicle for all intents and purposes, minus gas stations.
Drawbacks are: really hot climates will mess up the battery due to lack of active cooling. Really cold climates require the cold weather package for the battery warmer. Nissan doesn't really have a good story when the battery needs replacement - but maybe third party shops will by then.
If you do have QuickCharging, it uses ChaDeMo, which is dying. But it's still commonplace and will be for a while.
Other than that, I don't think about maintenance (maybe tire rotation and cabin filter?). No need to think when the next oil change is due. Registration renewal doesn't require a smog check. No OTA updates (both a blessing and a curse). It works as a normal vehicle for all intents and purposes, minus gas stations.
Nissan doesn't really have a good story when the battery needs replacement - but maybe third party shops will by then.
Battery replacement is technically quite easy. The main issue is the availability (or lack thereof) of replacement batteries.
Battery replacement is technically quite easy. The main issue is the availability (or lack thereof) of replacement batteries.
2nd this. In addition, it's easy to obtain the service manuals for the older Leaf models (up to around 2018). The design of the Leaf is very similar to other Nissan vehicles, so working on the car's non-drivetrain components is easy. The electric drivetrain itself has proven to be very reliable so far.
Just be very careful when buying a used leaf that has any chance of having spent time in the southwest. The OG leafs have no battery temperature management, and many of had their batteries baked in the Arizona sun.
Not sure where you live, but there were a lot of 'compliance cars' in California which were factory EV conversions of their traditional offerings.
As an example, the Fiat 500e (2013-2019, it has since been replaced by a ground-up electric version with the same faults as described in the article) is a normal 500 fitted with a Bosch SMG 180/120 motor and associated support components.
The 500e is virtually identical to the ICE version of the car, with a very hacked up looking shifter filler panel with buttons to control the motor and charger jack inside the gas filler door. The main downside with the compliance car life is they are all very short range, generally 50-100 miles. Also now that the program is shut down you don't get the rebate anymore so they are all discontinued (but readily available used).
There is no DRM on the Bosch SMG system, I have an android app and bluetooth adapter that lets you view all of the CAN messages, and many people online have successfully rebuilt their batteries with more modern cells to increase the range.
The 500e is virtually identical to the ICE version of the car, with a very hacked up looking shifter filler panel with buttons to control the motor and charger jack inside the gas filler door. The main downside with the compliance car life is they are all very short range, generally 50-100 miles. Also now that the program is shut down you don't get the rebate anymore so they are all discontinued (but readily available used).
There is no DRM on the Bosch SMG system, I have an android app and bluetooth adapter that lets you view all of the CAN messages, and many people online have successfully rebuilt their batteries with more modern cells to increase the range.
Do you have any links to people rebuilding their batteries? That is pretty amazing if done economically.
The best documented is M. Waddle's project https://mandmwaddle.ca/projects/fiat-500e/
He was able to rescue the existing deep discharged battery in his car, but the steps would be roughly the same to replace a submodule (readily available from totals cars).
There are also people looking into replacing the individual prismatic cells (the 500e is built with 63AHr samsung SDI cells, and there are now 120AHr cells available in the same form factor) but so far the only success story is from an outfit in Europe building custom packs out of banks of cylindrical cells https://www.fiat500owners.com/threads/upgrading-battery-for-...
He was able to rescue the existing deep discharged battery in his car, but the steps would be roughly the same to replace a submodule (readily available from totals cars).
There are also people looking into replacing the individual prismatic cells (the 500e is built with 63AHr samsung SDI cells, and there are now 120AHr cells available in the same form factor) but so far the only success story is from an outfit in Europe building custom packs out of banks of cylindrical cells https://www.fiat500owners.com/threads/upgrading-battery-for-...
I love my Chevy Bolt as a (relatively) cheap city car. You'll probably be able to get one cheap once the battery recall issues are resolved. I got it for ~22k out the door new.
It's not fully disconnected, but I basically feel like it's my car. I don't pay for any subscriptions (OnStar and XM are both available), and software updates are possible OTA but not required. No cameras (as far as I know) anywhere besides the backup cam.
I'm not sure how repairable the electronics are as luckily I've never needed any non-warranty work done. There was an issue with the hands-free mics and I took it in to a local dealer and they just replaced a module under warranty.
On the downside, it's a city car. Gets 260 miles of range, but fast charge rates are outdated (55kw max) and make road tripping harder than a more modern EV.
It's not fully disconnected, but I basically feel like it's my car. I don't pay for any subscriptions (OnStar and XM are both available), and software updates are possible OTA but not required. No cameras (as far as I know) anywhere besides the backup cam.
I'm not sure how repairable the electronics are as luckily I've never needed any non-warranty work done. There was an issue with the hands-free mics and I took it in to a local dealer and they just replaced a module under warranty.
On the downside, it's a city car. Gets 260 miles of range, but fast charge rates are outdated (55kw max) and make road tripping harder than a more modern EV.
What exactly do you mean by smartphone on wheels?
Modern EVs have quite a lot of "smart" software functionality just like modern ICE cars. Both modern ICE and EVs have complex ECUs that may need proprietary equipment to service. Most are a lot less smartphone-like than Tesla though.
Our old Kia Soul EV is just like Kia Soul... but EV.
We're now upgrading to Hyundai Ioniq 5, which is a small iteration towards "smartness" compared to the Kia. You can remotely check charging status and start the heater/cooler from your phone, so it is connected and always online I guess. There are OTA updates, but only for infotainment, not for drivetrain like with Tesla. No camera inside the car. I seriously doubt Hyundai will do remote downgrades or deactivations. I don't know of any issues for independent mechanics.
Modern EVs have quite a lot of "smart" software functionality just like modern ICE cars. Both modern ICE and EVs have complex ECUs that may need proprietary equipment to service. Most are a lot less smartphone-like than Tesla though.
Our old Kia Soul EV is just like Kia Soul... but EV.
We're now upgrading to Hyundai Ioniq 5, which is a small iteration towards "smartness" compared to the Kia. You can remotely check charging status and start the heater/cooler from your phone, so it is connected and always online I guess. There are OTA updates, but only for infotainment, not for drivetrain like with Tesla. No camera inside the car. I seriously doubt Hyundai will do remote downgrades or deactivations. I don't know of any issues for independent mechanics.
> What exactly do you mean by smartphone on wheels?
A car that requires a subscription or an account to use all of its features. Or a car that requires me to use a big touchscreen while driving.
I do like all kinds of modern conveniences, like lane assist or semi-autonomous driving on the autobahn/freeway. I like it when the media center is smart and can play Spotify and show me a list of radio channels with pictures and so on.
I don't like it when the media center or the GPS is too deeply integrated into the car, I've had too many cars where the radio became outdated quickly. Ideally, you should be able to buy the car and the media center separately like in the olden days, but I think that ship has sailed.
What I don't like is car makers using DRM and other tech to extract more money from me. Cars are ridiculously overpriced anyway (First, cars loose a lot of value the moment you leave the dealership. Second, the dealerships are able to give crazy discounts on the list price.)
A car that requires a subscription or an account to use all of its features. Or a car that requires me to use a big touchscreen while driving.
I do like all kinds of modern conveniences, like lane assist or semi-autonomous driving on the autobahn/freeway. I like it when the media center is smart and can play Spotify and show me a list of radio channels with pictures and so on.
I don't like it when the media center or the GPS is too deeply integrated into the car, I've had too many cars where the radio became outdated quickly. Ideally, you should be able to buy the car and the media center separately like in the olden days, but I think that ship has sailed.
What I don't like is car makers using DRM and other tech to extract more money from me. Cars are ridiculously overpriced anyway (First, cars loose a lot of value the moment you leave the dealership. Second, the dealerships are able to give crazy discounts on the list price.)
> Or a car that requires me to use a big touchscreen while driving.
That's Tesla and Tesla copycats. Most EVs are not like that.
> A car that requires a subscription or an account to use all of its features
Bunch of ICE vehicles have this sort of thing now.
That's Tesla and Tesla copycats. Most EVs are not like that.
> A car that requires a subscription or an account to use all of its features
Bunch of ICE vehicles have this sort of thing now.
Kia Soul EV. No internet connectivity whatsoever. Great ride, decent battery pack, outdated entertainment system and no "smarts".
Bollinger was making headway on a "no nonsense electric truck"; meaning, a dumb truck, but it looks like they've shifted focus to delivering a commercial fleet instead.
https://bollingermotors.com/bollinger-b1/
https://bollingermotors.com/bollinger-b1/
The VW eGolf (discontinued) was a Golf that „just happened to be electric“. It has limited range though.
Yes, and it seems the ID.3, which is the spiritual successor, has some of the classic EV problems. Like a buggy central computer that will need updates after launch.
I understand they needed to completely redo the platform to take advantage of the EV characteristics (e.g. you need space below to put the battery, you can design the car around the lower center of mass, you don't need an engine bay, ...). But I think they should have kept the Golf name and the interior concept (mechanical switches etc.) when switching to the new platform. After all, you buy a VW (here in Europe at least) if you want a no-nonsense, slightly boring, solid car and are willing to pay a little bit more. It's like an understated status symbol.
I understand they needed to completely redo the platform to take advantage of the EV characteristics (e.g. you need space below to put the battery, you can design the car around the lower center of mass, you don't need an engine bay, ...). But I think they should have kept the Golf name and the interior concept (mechanical switches etc.) when switching to the new platform. After all, you buy a VW (here in Europe at least) if you want a no-nonsense, slightly boring, solid car and are willing to pay a little bit more. It's like an understated status symbol.
I’d bet the ID.3 is more of a testing platform for the EV related driving experience than a vehicle intended to appeal to a mass audience. If VW fully commits to EV across the range, the EV in that family will be styled more like the GTI than the ID.3 (which would probably be pretty sweet).
This. I drive and love my GOLF in Netherlands. It’s simply a no nonsense reliable car. I wish VW sees the value of what they are liked for and retain that usefulness in their EVs for when I get in the market for one after my GOLF gives out.
Indeed, i had also a Golf (TDI) from 2005, very reliable car that works always, it is simple and everybody can repair it.
Why cannot they make EV's that are simple, we dont need all the gadgets that will break.
Old (discontinued) hyundai ioniq (2016-2020), Renault Zoe, Peugeot e 208, etc...
If you want a "real", no-compromise EV, there really isn't any alternative to Tesla. For me, the killer feature was a supercharging network. Without it, you have an expensive toy unless you are just going to potter around town on short trips. Even though most day I just charge my car at home, there's no way I would have bought a Tesla without the supercharging network.
Re. panel gaps and build quality, yes, the outside build/paint quality is about average (the seats are _very_ nice) but this is not why I bought a Tesla. I wanted the next generation vehicle tech and a car that can really go without making a fuss. Had I wanted absolutely even panel gaps, I would have bought a German or Japanese gas car.
Re. OTA updates, my 3+ year old car feels it was bought this year because of OTA updates. I have no desire to acquire a new model because the newer model will practically be identical to mine, apart from the mileage.
[edit:typos]
Re. panel gaps and build quality, yes, the outside build/paint quality is about average (the seats are _very_ nice) but this is not why I bought a Tesla. I wanted the next generation vehicle tech and a car that can really go without making a fuss. Had I wanted absolutely even panel gaps, I would have bought a German or Japanese gas car.
Re. OTA updates, my 3+ year old car feels it was bought this year because of OTA updates. I have no desire to acquire a new model because the newer model will practically be identical to mine, apart from the mileage.
[edit:typos]
I don't understand how this answers GPs question at all. They already said that they don't want OTA update type "features".
I'm interested because I've had similar questions myself. I'd like to buy an electric car but hate touch screen controls, telemetry, and being forced to rely on the manufacturer for repairs. So far I don't know of any EVs that come without those design issues.
I'm interested because I've had similar questions myself. I'd like to buy an electric car but hate touch screen controls, telemetry, and being forced to rely on the manufacturer for repairs. So far I don't know of any EVs that come without those design issues.
> Without it, you have an expensive toy unless you are just going to potter around town on short trips.
While it's a massive advantage for Tesla, that's a bit too harsh and highly dependent on where you live.
Note that over 90% of all trips even in the US are well within the range of modern EVs.
While it's a massive advantage for Tesla, that's a bit too harsh and highly dependent on where you live.
Note that over 90% of all trips even in the US are well within the range of modern EVs.
I own an eight years old electric vehicle. It’s not connected to the internet anymore, and it is fine. The maintenance is done by professionals. Sometimes they do software updates.
I also own a new electric vehicle connected to the internet that updates itself once in a while. I know various non-official garages in my area that can fix it when it’s out of warranty. I guess if I remove the modem, it will simply stop updating automatically, and I will lose a few features like the smartphone app, like my other car.
I also own a new electric vehicle connected to the internet that updates itself once in a while. I know various non-official garages in my area that can fix it when it’s out of warranty. I guess if I remove the modem, it will simply stop updating automatically, and I will lose a few features like the smartphone app, like my other car.
Can you say which vehicle you drive? electric vehicles platforms are very different from each other
Sure. The old one is a first gen BMW i3. But some coworkers, friends, and family have cars from the same time, Renault Zoé, Nissan Leaf, Volkswagen egolf, or Mitsubishi I-miev and it’s similar. Most of these are not connected.
The new one is a Tesla model y.
The new one is a Tesla model y.
Most of this applies to sufficiently modern gas vehicle. Even my motorcycle has now drive-by-wire throttle, computer-controlled fuel injection, and computer controlled brakes in addition to throttle control and other stuff. We will need to get used to the fact that many modern devices we use in everyday life are very sophisticaed and beyond "fix it yourself". Even your home fridge is likely to have a computer and bluetooth.
Everything new is cancerous in this exact same way. Every piece of software, every piece of hardware, every appliance. EVs just happened to scale up production at the same moment that everything was becoming so thoroughly diseased.
Our evil overlords want to make every tool, every convenience, every means of existence require a wifi connection, a smartphone, a web browser, a username and password, and -- most importantly -- a hefty, relentlessly increasing monthly fee.
If they ever get neural implants into us, you'll pay $10 a month to shit.
Our evil overlords want to make every tool, every convenience, every means of existence require a wifi connection, a smartphone, a web browser, a username and password, and -- most importantly -- a hefty, relentlessly increasing monthly fee.
If they ever get neural implants into us, you'll pay $10 a month to shit.
My 30+ year appliance repair guy quit last year because he said everything is planned obsolete and you can't get a good appliance at any price. Pay extra for Speed Queen or whatever if you want, but when it inevitably breaks you're looking for donor parts on eBay as if it were an old Android phone.
Even speed queen is pushing / has switched to electronic controls. The big mechanical selector knobs are still there, but they're interacting with a PCB underneath.
You are saying two very different things here. The stuff that we make today is built on millennia of knowledge - obviously it won't be trivial to understand or fix. That's not a problem - unless you want to force everyone back to the stone age.
Your second point is valid, a lot of stuff is shipped with stuff that isn't useful for end consumer or even anti consumer outright. The solution to this is to push for right to repair laws, patent reform, open source, etc and not decry modern technology altogether.
Your second point is valid, a lot of stuff is shipped with stuff that isn't useful for end consumer or even anti consumer outright. The solution to this is to push for right to repair laws, patent reform, open source, etc and not decry modern technology altogether.
Which is why I won't be buying one either until this changes. Manufacturers are choosing post-sale control instead of prioritizing clean air.
I have driven (dare I say owned) a Chevy Bolt for over 4 years.
I have changed the tires and added windshield fluid.
(they replaced the battery on recall - I had no problems).
Updates were not necessary.
If you want to understand and be able to modify everything about your transportation then ride a bicycle (not electric of course!)
Updates were not necessary.
If you want to understand and be able to modify everything about your transportation then ride a bicycle (not electric of course!)
This is less about the user but about 3rd party "out of network" repair shops. The manufacturer's control over everything increases. It used to be that you could take your device to anywhere, now it's all about "in-network". It's a general trend.
Personally, I think the system was much more "capitalistic" and a lot less limiting when you just needed general tools and knowledge to repair stuff in an entire category (cars, electrical household machines, etc.). I'd really like to see where this is going to end up a hundred years from now. I don't think all the long-term implications of this trend are really clear at this point yet. A more complex society may have to live with less freedom for individuals and compensate elsewhere. Even if at least some of current complexity is purposefully made for the purpose to create artificial restrictions, there may also be benefits that I'm unable to see from my low vantage point. Maybe in the future it offers manufacturers options to create really useful value on top of such restrictions, I don't know yet.
Personally, I think the system was much more "capitalistic" and a lot less limiting when you just needed general tools and knowledge to repair stuff in an entire category (cars, electrical household machines, etc.). I'd really like to see where this is going to end up a hundred years from now. I don't think all the long-term implications of this trend are really clear at this point yet. A more complex society may have to live with less freedom for individuals and compensate elsewhere. Even if at least some of current complexity is purposefully made for the purpose to create artificial restrictions, there may also be benefits that I'm unable to see from my low vantage point. Maybe in the future it offers manufacturers options to create really useful value on top of such restrictions, I don't know yet.
Modern bikes are surprisingly hard to work on. More and more complex systems such as hydraulic disc brakes, electronically actuated gear changers and so on. Bike mechanics - especially for e-bikes - routinely use computers for diagnostic purposes. A typical e-bike has 5 to 10 CPUs in it.
True, but one important caveat: modern road and e bikes are hard to work on. Some hybrids, too, though hydraulics aren’t crazy to maintain yourself.
There are manufacturers out there, like Surly and Rivendell, who still make bikes that are easy to maintain yourself. Touring bikes are usually a good bet. Mountain bikes and gravel bikes from 5 years ago, too, but top-of-the line models used for competitions in both sports are increasingly moving toward tomfoolery like electronic shifters.
There are manufacturers out there, like Surly and Rivendell, who still make bikes that are easy to maintain yourself. Touring bikes are usually a good bet. Mountain bikes and gravel bikes from 5 years ago, too, but top-of-the line models used for competitions in both sports are increasingly moving toward tomfoolery like electronic shifters.
Having bike toured, I agree that touring bikes hit a sweet spot for performance/maintainability ratio, but that's a very intentional choice on the part of the folks who make them.
You get that by speccing good, but not top-end uber-fancy parts and building 26" wheels with solid, but easily replaceable parts. And a good saddle.
As for the other ends of that spectrum, I'm going to paraphrase a quote I heard about GM cars years ago: a Walmart bike will run like shit longer than a bike with electronic shifting will run at all.
You get that by speccing good, but not top-end uber-fancy parts and building 26" wheels with solid, but easily replaceable parts. And a good saddle.
As for the other ends of that spectrum, I'm going to paraphrase a quote I heard about GM cars years ago: a Walmart bike will run like shit longer than a bike with electronic shifting will run at all.
The importance of a good saddle can not be overstated. It is the most important part of any bike for longer distance cycling. I do very regular 128 km rides (once per week at least, sometimes twice per week) on my e-bike and without a good saddle that would be impossible.
As far as I'm concerned they're totally useless, finicky, easy to break, vulnerable cabling, need to be charged. An indexed cable switcher is ultra reliable and just as precise (assuming you adjust the cable once every year or so if used heavily).
That has not been my experience with Di2. No cable stretch means no need to adjust anything—not to mention no more lubing cables. Perfect shifting every time with no adjustment needed is the opposite of finicky. Multishift, shifting with the tap of a button, and hood buttons are quite useful. Charging the battery 2-3x a year is a small price to pay for all of this.
Ok. Ymmv apparently, had a Di2 bike near me bought by a friend, nothing but trouble. Eventually they dropped the Di2 system and installed a nice mechanical system and the bike has been fine ever since. That's a pretty low sample count and it is of course possible that that was a lemon. But the bike itself (a Bulls, top of the line model) is pretty good and the rest of the parts held up just fine.
If you stick to all but the bleeding edge of bicycles, they're easy to maintain.
If you don't buy anything with electronics, the worst you'll have to deal with are hydraulic brakes. Which have been on cars for how many decades?
You've been able to get them on bikes for 20 years, and motorcycles (which have similar packaging and space/routing constraints to bicycles) far longer. They just aren't that hard to work on. At the risk of getting into no true Scotsman territory, are there any decent bike shops that can't fix them? Fifteen years ago, I'd forgive a shop that couldn't deal with them. It's table stakes now.
If you don't buy anything with electronics, the worst you'll have to deal with are hydraulic brakes. Which have been on cars for how many decades?
You've been able to get them on bikes for 20 years, and motorcycles (which have similar packaging and space/routing constraints to bicycles) far longer. They just aren't that hard to work on. At the risk of getting into no true Scotsman territory, are there any decent bike shops that can't fix them? Fifteen years ago, I'd forgive a shop that couldn't deal with them. It's table stakes now.
I had a Bolt (Have since sold it) but you could literally pull the OnStar fuse and turn it into a dumb car in about 2 minutes. Solved that problem.
This is indeed not limited to EV's and cars.
Search e.g. on "John Deere right to repair", and you will see that farmers cannot repair their own tractor anymore, and need the factory dealer to repair it, and the owner have to wait and cannot do anything.
Prices of old school tractors are rising, because a lot of farmers like to repair a lot of things, so they can keep going, and dont have to wait for a mechanic that can repair it.
On your car, i also like old cars, because you can bring it to every mechanic, or do it yourself. I like the basic car, and hope EV's will come that are also simple and build like Lego, so you can easy switch some (electronic) parts.
Who need large displays, self driven cars, and other gadgets. A vehicle is just a useful thing to bring you from A to B on a save way, we dont need distraction from all the expensive gadgets, just safety and comfort.
Just keep cars simple please.
On your car, i also like old cars, because you can bring it to every mechanic, or do it yourself. I like the basic car, and hope EV's will come that are also simple and build like Lego, so you can easy switch some (electronic) parts.
Who need large displays, self driven cars, and other gadgets. A vehicle is just a useful thing to bring you from A to B on a save way, we dont need distraction from all the expensive gadgets, just safety and comfort.
Just keep cars simple please.
Would you pay X% more to be able to repair Y?
Most consumers will buy the cheaper Y if it provides the same day-to-day value as the more expensive but repairable Y.
Right to repair is a much greater proportion of pining for the "good ol' days" than anything. When the complexity and manufacturing maturity were not that high, increasing complexity usually meant reducing reliability.
The idea that products can deliver greater sophistication, comfort and efficiency without adding complexity is preposterous. At some point the complexity becomes so high that it's not safe for a non-expert to work on it.
Imagine a customer bricking a $30,000 car because they wanted to repair it. Who would they blame? Themselves? "Well they shouldn't have made it this way!"
Most consumers will buy the cheaper Y if it provides the same day-to-day value as the more expensive but repairable Y.
Right to repair is a much greater proportion of pining for the "good ol' days" than anything. When the complexity and manufacturing maturity were not that high, increasing complexity usually meant reducing reliability.
The idea that products can deliver greater sophistication, comfort and efficiency without adding complexity is preposterous. At some point the complexity becomes so high that it's not safe for a non-expert to work on it.
Imagine a customer bricking a $30,000 car because they wanted to repair it. Who would they blame? Themselves? "Well they shouldn't have made it this way!"
I don't mind not owning cheaper things but when it comes to very high value purchases i.e. houses, cars etc, I'm not going to put capital in up front or leverage debt unless I actually own all rights to them. I don't mind renting them but the value proposition has to be decent and it's not for any EVs at the moment for my personal circumstances. It would be silly for almost everyone I know to invest in one as well and they only end up realistically as status purchases.
When my current, modest petrol vehicle becomes to cost inefficient to look after, I'm not going to bother getting another one. I live in a major city with good public transport so will leverage that, ride my bike and hire a car if I need one.
When my current, modest petrol vehicle becomes to cost inefficient to look after, I'm not going to bother getting another one. I live in a major city with good public transport so will leverage that, ride my bike and hire a car if I need one.
In the 2006 sci-fi novel Rainbows End by Vernor Vinge, a back-from-the-almost-dead engineer character has a temper tantrum when they discover all the electronics, up to and including the cars outside, have a "No User Serviceable Parts Inside" cover over everything.
The book was prescient in many ways.
The book was prescient in many ways.
So the line of logic here is EVs are hard to repair, therefore you don’t own your EV?
They could have titled this clickbait article “The demand for EV mechanics is very high”.
The jump from hard to repair to you don’t own your vehicle is asinine. By this logic, I don’t own my TV, MacBook, Car door opener, Bluetooth headphones, or my Hot Pockets either. Hot Pockets are nearly impossible to put back together once opened.
They could have titled this clickbait article “The demand for EV mechanics is very high”.
The jump from hard to repair to you don’t own your vehicle is asinine. By this logic, I don’t own my TV, MacBook, Car door opener, Bluetooth headphones, or my Hot Pockets either. Hot Pockets are nearly impossible to put back together once opened.
"Tesla limits driving range through software then sell the vehicle at a lower price"
The battery is the most expensive part in the car, no way manufacturers would put them in and not expose them through software just to sell at a lower price point. That's just not how the world works.
Tesla, as well as every other long term lithium battery producer limits the amount you can use to protect the longetivity of the battery. Their company wouldn't do so well if after 3 years reports of severely degraded batteries started coming out.
It still supports the article's point, but it's a lot less malicious. You don't get to decide how much to drain your battery because Tesla has a reputation to maintain.
The battery is the most expensive part in the car, no way manufacturers would put them in and not expose them through software just to sell at a lower price point. That's just not how the world works.
Tesla, as well as every other long term lithium battery producer limits the amount you can use to protect the longetivity of the battery. Their company wouldn't do so well if after 3 years reports of severely degraded batteries started coming out.
It still supports the article's point, but it's a lot less malicious. You don't get to decide how much to drain your battery because Tesla has a reputation to maintain.
> The battery is the most expensive part in the car, no way manufacturers would put them in and not expose them through software just to sell at a lower price point. That's just not how the world works.
That is literally what Tesla did in Canada:
https://www.thedrive.com/news/40153/heres-why-tesla-still-se...
That is literally what Tesla did in Canada:
https://www.thedrive.com/news/40153/heres-why-tesla-still-se...
That's essentially a show model, made to fulfill a stupid government funding mandate. It ends up being better for the customer in the end.
This isn't about discharging the battery "under 0%" or charging it "over 100%", as car batteries already only go between 25% and 85% effective charge, this is about forcibly keeping them what should be between 35% and 75% (for the "60" => "40" kWh models)
https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-808-how-to-prolong-...
And while this does have some extra benefit in terms of battery lifetime, it's fucked up that you wouldn't be able to choose the % charge on batteries that you supposedly own.
https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-808-how-to-prolong-...
And while this does have some extra benefit in terms of battery lifetime, it's fucked up that you wouldn't be able to choose the % charge on batteries that you supposedly own.
In the future we won't own anything, corporates will. And with the data they will collect, share and collate, and use against us, they will effectively enslave us. But we'll all still be under the illusion that we have autonomy and freedom. .
"You'll own nothing. And you'll be happy.", and some likely say: we will own everything and we'll be happier /s.
someone pointed out the percentage of US house sales due to private equity. A nation of renters.
F*ck that. I want no part in that future.
I appreciate your cynicism, but history has shown that slavery is unsustainable and that humans resist and succeed against it time and time again. In this same future you've described, we will value and own the corporations instead of things directly. The reason we will remain under the illusion that we have autonomy and freedom will be, despite having lost the ability to hack everything we own, we will have the ability to choose from many competitors who operate much differently and cater to specific types of users. No longer will we need to be lone islands of hackers to get our use-case working great, we will collectively organize around our use-cases to develop the most compatible products. The wealth of open-source software and specifications will be a foundation for these new businesses to operate from. It's inevitable because the pressure from consumers must be relieved in one way or another. The founding of companies like Framework seem to exhibit this principle at work.
Squeezing on one side inflates the other side.
Squeezing on one side inflates the other side.
> history has shown that slavery is unsustainable and that humans resist and succeed against it time and time again
The problem is that technology as a force amplifier is getting better and better. At some point it gives the 1% enough power and artificial smarts to enslave the 99% indefinitely. When people in history have overthrown slavery, the masters couldn't stop all transportation in the country (minus bicycles) with the push of a button. That's where we are headed here. Same with the cash-less society and so on.
The problem is that technology as a force amplifier is getting better and better. At some point it gives the 1% enough power and artificial smarts to enslave the 99% indefinitely. When people in history have overthrown slavery, the masters couldn't stop all transportation in the country (minus bicycles) with the push of a button. That's where we are headed here. Same with the cash-less society and so on.
The force amplification of technology empowers individuals, not necessarily just the incumbent leaders. This allows other countries to catch up and offer alternative, competing visions for the future of governance. Just like YouTubers have used new prosumer software and hardware to produce content rivaling or surpassing their much larger, legacy predecessors, so to will the upstart governments and economies of the world. Just like there will be more competing businesses for non-serviceable hardware (e.g. ASICs or SoCs), there will be more governments capable of servicing their infrastructure needs. Cash-less societies can mean many things, there will be credit-based barter networks which are hyper-local, regional, national, etc. There are privacy coins. Users can mine new, anonymous coins on other networks to obfuscate their purchases and funds transfers. Technology gives users these many avenues to avoid government monitoring when fighting tyranny. We don't need cash, and we have options if it looks like the enslavement is upon us.
> The force amplification of technology empowers individuals
That's what they want you to believe. When the platform is controlled by the corporates, without any regulation, 99% of the individuals don't matter.
That's what they want you to believe. When the platform is controlled by the corporates, without any regulation, 99% of the individuals don't matter.
You can still go the DIY kit car option or have a professional do it for you.
When my 23 year old vehicle finally gives in and it gets too expensive to repair I will be getting a side-by-side. [1] Possibly even one that is EV but no internet connections. No fondle-screen. It will cover 99% of my driving needs as I don't even leave this county any more. I see people drive their side-by-sides into town all the time, even the ones that aren't street legal and the troopers don't bat an eye. I will get the street legal version regardless.
Maybe in 10+ years if large EV trucks have options for no internet/cellular network connection and no touch screens I might get one. They have a lot of bugs to work out and competition to create.
[1] - https://ranger.polaris.com/en-us/ranger-ev/
Maybe in 10+ years if large EV trucks have options for no internet/cellular network connection and no touch screens I might get one. They have a lot of bugs to work out and competition to create.
[1] - https://ranger.polaris.com/en-us/ranger-ev/
Kei trucks are another option. People really like the Suzuki Carry with aftermarket parts. A bit cheaper than the Polaris stuff too.
Thankyou! I am currently reading up on these. I've seen a couple old ones in town. I didn't know that heating was an option in some of these that would be a big plus here.
Illegal or prohibitly expensive in quite a few parts of the world. Even simple things like converting a car to run on biofuel can be difficult.
A DIY car is a difficult thing to do, but a DIY ebike is easy and relatively cheap.
It shouldnt, the concept of an EV is simple, but car companies add to much gadgets.
Just look to electric remote toy cars how simple the basics are for an EV.
Lets make EV cars just as simple as electric toy cars.
Keep it simple, dont make driving gadgets.
Good point. It could also become a stepping stone to starting a larger project.
> And with the data they will collect, share and collate, and use against us, they will effectively enslave us.
This is the point where we in Europe smugly point to the GDPR.
This is the point where we in Europe smugly point to the GDPR.
But most of the largest corporations are owned by us, the public
While the trend for vendor lock-in applies to ICE vehicles as well it feels disingenuous not to acknowledge the differences. The difference is comparable to PC vs smartphone. Sure, you get a lot of proprietary code on PCs as well but come on...
Are you sure you aren't just comparing Tesla vs other brands? Tesla is pushing the "smartphone"-style further/first and only does EVs. Whereas with other brands it does seem like they follow the same trend line towards that with both EVs and non-EVs in their ranges (and many would do it more if they could manage doing it, but traditional car companies and software is ... challenging)
Suck it up.
We are entering the own-nothing-be-happy era of human history, and there's not a God-damn thing you can do about it because market forces are prevailing against you.
An example is computing. General purpose computing for the masses is moribund. The fundamental reason has little to do with the greed of OEMs (though that is very much a thing). It has a lot to do with the fact that end users don't want to be sysadmins. So they delegate the maintenance of their machine to the vendor. To keep costs down and the experience smooth, those vendors have an interest in restricting what can be run on their machines, and monitoring the machines' use to find problems (and run a side business selling that info to advertisers... the machines themselves are so low-margin, if not negative-margin that residual income for their use is a MUST to satisfy shareholders).
And so it's becoming the same for cars. People these days don't want to be responsible for a cars' maintenance, they just want to pay a sum for a few years' use of the car. Accepting that the vendor will take care of maintenance, as well as whatever restrictions the vendor chooses to implement, is still a win for the consumer. Therefore this model will dominate in the marketplace, and the option of owning your car outright will be like the option of owning a non-smart TV: not worth the money for manufacturers.
We are entering the own-nothing-be-happy era of human history, and there's not a God-damn thing you can do about it because market forces are prevailing against you.
An example is computing. General purpose computing for the masses is moribund. The fundamental reason has little to do with the greed of OEMs (though that is very much a thing). It has a lot to do with the fact that end users don't want to be sysadmins. So they delegate the maintenance of their machine to the vendor. To keep costs down and the experience smooth, those vendors have an interest in restricting what can be run on their machines, and monitoring the machines' use to find problems (and run a side business selling that info to advertisers... the machines themselves are so low-margin, if not negative-margin that residual income for their use is a MUST to satisfy shareholders).
And so it's becoming the same for cars. People these days don't want to be responsible for a cars' maintenance, they just want to pay a sum for a few years' use of the car. Accepting that the vendor will take care of maintenance, as well as whatever restrictions the vendor chooses to implement, is still a win for the consumer. Therefore this model will dominate in the marketplace, and the option of owning your car outright will be like the option of owning a non-smart TV: not worth the money for manufacturers.
This has nothing to do with the car being an EV. Isn't it?
It's perfectly possible for ICE car manufacturers also to start adopting this "expansion pack for cars" model
It's perfectly possible for ICE car manufacturers also to start adopting this "expansion pack for cars" model
They are already doing that. For some Audi models you can order a tuning pack that increases your engine's power and is delivered through an internet connection (e.g. WiFi or built-in phone network). I think this is probably true for other brands as well.
A simple example which I have seen on many cars: "directional" headlights that are actually achieved by turning on the fog light on the side you are steering to. This is 100% implemented in software and uses the fog lights which are already installed (in all but the cheapest variants).
Big Tech, eg. Microsoft, took everything to the "cloud" and charges a subscription fee. Google, et. al., scans your mail and docs, Apple the various things uploaded to the cloud. Ever had your own music, ripped from your own CDs, removed from your IPhone following an update? Yep, I have. Electric cars are the ultimate virtual signaling status symbol. The younger one is, the more conditioned to the Big Tech business model, e.g., in game purchases, always on phones, Instagram, blah, blah. Now the US is likely to follow China down the "social credit score" path. The inflation and high gas prices are intended to accelerate the changeover. Fundamentally, the younger one is, the more conditioned they are to surrender their freedoms to the oligarchs and bureaucrats. One additional benefit of EVs to the bureaucrats is they limit the populace's mobility, i.e., the travel range is much shorter and recharges take much longer than filling up with gas. I drive an old car devoid of any electronic gadgetry and very repairable.
There was a snippy saying from a book I read that stuck in my head:
If it flies, fucks, or floats: rent it.
This was in a story about never buying a boat because it's a giant money pit for maintenance. I'd imagine it would include cars if that was possible, which is finally becoming a reality.
I believe renting should be the default and ownership is the alternative for people who need it (like pickup trucks for work and maybe commuters).
If it flies, fucks, or floats: rent it.
This was in a story about never buying a boat because it's a giant money pit for maintenance. I'd imagine it would include cars if that was possible, which is finally becoming a reality.
I believe renting should be the default and ownership is the alternative for people who need it (like pickup trucks for work and maybe commuters).
My wife is an asset, not a liability or an expense.
For the rest, it depends on how much you're going to use it. A boat or a plane (or an RV), you're likely to use less than you project you will at the time you're thinking of buying one, so it's easy to get suckered into buying something that you won't use enough to justify owning. But you probably know fairly accurately how much you use a car, unless you just made a significant lifestyle change.
And I suspect that most people who own cars use them much more heavily than you suspect when you say that renting should be the default.
For the rest, it depends on how much you're going to use it. A boat or a plane (or an RV), you're likely to use less than you project you will at the time you're thinking of buying one, so it's easy to get suckered into buying something that you won't use enough to justify owning. But you probably know fairly accurately how much you use a car, unless you just made a significant lifestyle change.
And I suspect that most people who own cars use them much more heavily than you suspect when you say that renting should be the default.
This is not an ev problem. Somehow vehicle connectivity came somewhat at the same time as electrification, and so, people see causation where it's just correlation; but by any means its not a downside of EVs, it's a problem of connectivity and corporate greed.
EVs existed before connectivity and none of the issues cited in the article were in those early versions. Similarly, connected non electric cars have the same problem. See BMW which built cars with heated seats but required you to give them extra money to activate them, all the examples with John Deer, connected range rovers that you could remote open, etc.
I'm not shocked by the fact that companies like Toyota and co. will try to leverage random small features like remote open or remote diagnostics that require connection to start charging you monthly. Subscription economy is the shitty way the world is moving to, and any industry that didn't pivot there yet is getting very jealous.
EVs existed before connectivity and none of the issues cited in the article were in those early versions. Similarly, connected non electric cars have the same problem. See BMW which built cars with heated seats but required you to give them extra money to activate them, all the examples with John Deer, connected range rovers that you could remote open, etc.
I'm not shocked by the fact that companies like Toyota and co. will try to leverage random small features like remote open or remote diagnostics that require connection to start charging you monthly. Subscription economy is the shitty way the world is moving to, and any industry that didn't pivot there yet is getting very jealous.
This guy's argument does not really seem to have any legitimate link to electric vehicles in particular, and as such, he should really back off of trying to blame EVs for this. It makes his overall point about repairability much weaker.
As he himself acknowledges in the article, this is really a problem that's emerging more and more in all modern vehicles.
As he himself acknowledges in the article, this is really a problem that's emerging more and more in all modern vehicles.
Where I live people buy cars that were made in the 70s and 80s and then change out the engine, cut things up and change them.
Lots of welders here too. I can definitely see in my future doing this and putting 40-50Kwh and some high torque motors on the wheels. There are apparently some books on amazon for this shit too.
Lots of welders here too. I can definitely see in my future doing this and putting 40-50Kwh and some high torque motors on the wheels. There are apparently some books on amazon for this shit too.
What are some example such books?
I only saw this one:
https://www.amazon.com/Build-Your-Electric-Vehicle-Third/dp/...
https://www.amazon.com/Build-Your-Electric-Vehicle-Third/dp/...
But how about building one yourself? A good old "dumb" electric-motor-powered car?
There was a similar but more general thread on it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30144101
There was a similar but more general thread on it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30144101
Related, a guy tried to build a toaster from scratch: https://www.google.com/amp/s/gizmodo.com/one-mans-nearly-imp...
Ended up writing a book about it and probably made a whole lot of money.
Ended up writing a book about it and probably made a whole lot of money.
I misplaced the key/fob to 2018 Toyota Rav4 hybrid and it can only be replaced at the dealership .. for $850 CAD.
It's an especially cruel form of vendor lock-in and has caused me to reevaluate the selection criteria for the next vehicle I purchase.
I want the simplest EV possible.
It's an especially cruel form of vendor lock-in and has caused me to reevaluate the selection criteria for the next vehicle I purchase.
I want the simplest EV possible.
Sounds like what we're really saying is "You don't ever own a software-as-a-service controlled vehicle". If all cars ran on software updates then these complaints apply to combustion engine vehicles too.
Has nothing to do with the propulsion system being electric. Has everything to do with auto manufacturers wanting too much control. The CEO of Stellantis, which owns what's left of Chrysler and Fiat, has said that they intend to get their margins up to tech-company levels ("double digit margins") by adding software features with ongoing charges.[1]
[1] https://www.stellantis.com/en/investors/events/strategic-pla...
[1] https://www.stellantis.com/en/investors/events/strategic-pla...
Complexity is going to inevitably make everything harder to repair as it becomes ever so involved to learn and understand how things work.
However, it need not be harder than it should be if manufacturers are not hostile towards 3rd part repair. That’s job of the government to mandate it. Most manufacturers want control over their processes to ensure, in the least, the repair is done right and it won’t end up as bad press and reputation damage due to someone else’s screw ups.
EVs are in their infancy. So don’t expect perfection just yet. Give it a few decades and regulation will catch up.
However, it need not be harder than it should be if manufacturers are not hostile towards 3rd part repair. That’s job of the government to mandate it. Most manufacturers want control over their processes to ensure, in the least, the repair is done right and it won’t end up as bad press and reputation damage due to someone else’s screw ups.
EVs are in their infancy. So don’t expect perfection just yet. Give it a few decades and regulation will catch up.
Electric repower of classic cars is a thing. VW Beetles and Mustangs are popular targets. I've also seen everything from a 2CV to a Jaguar MK IV.
It's just a charger, an inverter, battery, and drive unit (motor). Apparently the electric brake assist off the prius is plug and play due to how failover mode works when disconnected from a main computer. I suspect a lot of older cars will end up repowered by an electric motor simply because people love the car, not the engine, nor the endless tinkering to keep it running acceptably, and all the oil and grease involved.
It's just a charger, an inverter, battery, and drive unit (motor). Apparently the electric brake assist off the prius is plug and play due to how failover mode works when disconnected from a main computer. I suspect a lot of older cars will end up repowered by an electric motor simply because people love the car, not the engine, nor the endless tinkering to keep it running acceptably, and all the oil and grease involved.
Yeah, I'm not buying the broad premise of this article given that salvage parts from the worst offender (Tesla) are routinely used for the conversions you mentioned.
One overlooked aspect of vehicle ownership is that these manufacturers / dealerships have adopted a mindset similar to subscription based models where the predictability of finances is well established.
At some point, I think there will be a greater demand for right-to-repair form of ownership where you can fix (by yourself) or bring your vehicle to another company which will have some knowledge in how to resolve your vehicle's issue.
Author makes a nice point though about future of EVs where convenience of renting or on demand lease of vehicles become the norm.
At some point, I think there will be a greater demand for right-to-repair form of ownership where you can fix (by yourself) or bring your vehicle to another company which will have some knowledge in how to resolve your vehicle's issue.
Author makes a nice point though about future of EVs where convenience of renting or on demand lease of vehicles become the norm.
It is true to any new car, there is more electronic and more software than before.
Maybe new EV are embracing it even more. But this seems the trend: more electronic, more software, less cables/gears.
Yes, it is more complex to repair, and requires more skills.
Yes, some features can be disable remotely, like Apple could do on your phone, Amazon on your Alexa, Google on your Nest, etc.
"Software eating the world" maybe has some drawbacks (more difficult to repair, remote disable, etc) but is not specific to EV.
Aptera appears to be committed to right-to-repair.
https://cleantechnica.com/2021/11/19/a-recent-aptera-video-g...
https://aptera.us/giving-you-the-right-to-repair/
https://cleantechnica.com/2021/11/19/a-recent-aptera-video-g...
https://aptera.us/giving-you-the-right-to-repair/
Electronic ate the mechanicals things.
Software is eating the electronic things and mechanical things remaining. Now it’s AI and the connected things doing it again.
Also cars are cheaper, more efficient, more reliable use less materials, are way safer, etc.
But yes I wonder what will happen in 20 years with those high tech vehicle, but imagine the tech we will have in 20 years. Every car will be electric, self driving and cheap. Solar energy will be cheap and everywhere.
Software is eating the electronic things and mechanical things remaining. Now it’s AI and the connected things doing it again.
Also cars are cheaper, more efficient, more reliable use less materials, are way safer, etc.
But yes I wonder what will happen in 20 years with those high tech vehicle, but imagine the tech we will have in 20 years. Every car will be electric, self driving and cheap. Solar energy will be cheap and everywhere.
Do you ever own anything highly technical? My phone requires regular updates to keep it secure; as does my computer, my TV, etc. If I get my home heating repaired then it has to be with someone registered or my home insurance is void.
My first 2 cars, I could work on. They were old, easy to fix and didn't require special tools. My 2006 Yaris has a pressurized diesel system I can't mess with. So that needs specialist knowledge.
My first 2 cars, I could work on. They were old, easy to fix and didn't require special tools. My 2006 Yaris has a pressurized diesel system I can't mess with. So that needs specialist knowledge.
My phone and TV continue to work doing their primary job if I don't have them attached to the Internet. My Google Pixel 5 Pro will continue to operate as a phone only if it is removed from Internet and unable to install updates or check into the Google Mothership. Same with my Sony TV. Yes, they lose some functionality because they are not on the Internet but I would expect that because those functionalities require the Internet. However, my car should always work as a car, even without Internet access or ever checking with the Car Manufacturer Mothership. Yes, I can expect mapping feature to not work, but when I start my car, it should always start.
But if the phone network decides to change how connections are made you decide not to update your phone, it won't work. 1G is deprecated. 2G has 11 years left in it in the UK. If you don't get your car serviced; it will cease to work and servicing will require updates. In most modern cars you are beholden to specialist knowledge to do that.
I agree with your trust issue but I think we already trust technology companies for many parts of our lives.
I agree with your trust issue but I think we already trust technology companies for many parts of our lives.
I definitely own my Linux desktop. I still have to accept auto-updates to stay secure, but I trust these random software authors not to screw me over infinitely more than I'd trust Microsoft or Google.
I understand the issue of trust. I think my point still stands. You don't really own it unless you're doing the kernel fixes yourself.
My phone so far can't kill me, at least it's extremely unlikely, "my" car if does not obey a command might kill me or kill someone else leaving me as responsible for that. That's an important difference.
Also my phone need a certain level of complexity "my" car have NO REASON to from my own personal perspective: I do not need a connected car. I do not need a car where the OEM have the control and I have not. Such choice for cars are made for the sake of OEM, of surveillance capitalism, not for end users.
Also I do my best NOT using "my phone" exactly because of the crappy crap it is, I'll do my best to be desktop-bound, FLOSS desktop, I can't do much for UEFI and other fw crap, but at least they are less invasive and untrustable that Android/iOS.
For me, for cars and social evolution in general there is only one option: a big push from the people that mandate open hardware and free software making surveillance so heavily punished that no one have interest to steer in that direction.
Also my phone need a certain level of complexity "my" car have NO REASON to from my own personal perspective: I do not need a connected car. I do not need a car where the OEM have the control and I have not. Such choice for cars are made for the sake of OEM, of surveillance capitalism, not for end users.
Also I do my best NOT using "my phone" exactly because of the crappy crap it is, I'll do my best to be desktop-bound, FLOSS desktop, I can't do much for UEFI and other fw crap, but at least they are less invasive and untrustable that Android/iOS.
For me, for cars and social evolution in general there is only one option: a big push from the people that mandate open hardware and free software making surveillance so heavily punished that no one have interest to steer in that direction.
It's true that a car can kill and that is an important difference but I don't think that is what's new here. What appears to be new is you're being asked to trust something new.
My heating system can kill me and my family. I trust the engineer to do a good job. That's no different to my car. My 2006 Yaris has a computer that could cause the engine to explode. The engineers where my car is serviced have must trust.
But truly, in either of those cases my ownership is beholden to others. I don't truly own it without support from others. Your FLOSS desktop will receive updates from people you don't know.
So the difference here is trust. I completely agree with the social evolution statement; that is inevitable.
My heating system can kill me and my family. I trust the engineer to do a good job. That's no different to my car. My 2006 Yaris has a computer that could cause the engine to explode. The engineers where my car is serviced have must trust.
But truly, in either of those cases my ownership is beholden to others. I don't truly own it without support from others. Your FLOSS desktop will receive updates from people you don't know.
So the difference here is trust. I completely agree with the social evolution statement; that is inevitable.
"Feature phones" exist, Linux PCs exist, non-smart TVs exist (all of these come with tradeoffs).
The difference is, in some places, it is not possible to own a new car.
One of those places is the USA, where you miss out on a lot if you don't have access to a car.
The difference is, in some places, it is not possible to own a new car.
One of those places is the USA, where you miss out on a lot if you don't have access to a car.
Linux is still updated by someone that isn't you. Even "old" cars require specialist knowledge. You're still beholden to someone else. The difference is now you're being asked to trust someone new.
Recently had water ingress on an Audi hybrid (thankfully covered by warranty). It turned out, after many calls, there is one service centre that could do the work in Scotland. It’s 250 miles away.
It would seem even the official channels are struggling to fix the vehicles.
Any young people looking for a career you won’t go far wrong training up to fix EV’s
You do if you build it yourself! Hack the planet!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8McUViPbh6M
P.S. just look at the new Koenigsegg electric motor. So much potential.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8McUViPbh6M
P.S. just look at the new Koenigsegg electric motor. So much potential.
A car isn't the only type of vehicle. You can own an electric bike, which is an electric vehicle.
If you see “vehicle” and automatically think “car”, consider why that might be.
If you see “vehicle” and automatically think “car”, consider why that might be.
That's worth pointing out, but sometimes you really do need a car. There's no way I'd be commuting to my office every day on a bike or by bus - the former thanks to the weather conditions, and the latter because of how much time is wasted in the traffic.
Yeah, I agree that bikes and public transport can't meet everyone's needs right now.
I'd also point out that the traffic holding up your bus is mostly cars :) so if enough people can be persuaded to shift to the denser form of transport (buses), those buses would waste less time in traffic — and so would the fewer people using cars out of necessity, and emergency services and so on.
I'd also point out that the traffic holding up your bus is mostly cars :) so if enough people can be persuaded to shift to the denser form of transport (buses), those buses would waste less time in traffic — and so would the fewer people using cars out of necessity, and emergency services and so on.
It's because when someone means bike, they say bike.
Yes! Also, you can make your own ebike from a regular bike, a motor and a battery, and that gives you maximum freedom. It's also cheaper.
Relevant: YouTube channels "Not Just Bikes" and "City Beautiful"
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It is not only EVEs also modern ICE too, worst for you, its like that with almost every technology as it gets more advance. Or do you not want to get it better? Do you acknoledge the advantage of an acelerator controled by a ICU?
Not to miss the point here, but as an aside, it seems fairly likely that the option of completely ending sales to consumers in some current markets is on the table at Tesla once actual working (non-beta) full self driving exists.
It sounds like these cars will be a prime target for hacking into and rooting the same way that a smartphone is rooted. Otherwise, why not lease a thing like this which is so expensive so locked?
Any vehicle that relies on a touchscreen for essential functions falls under this category. Like fans in a computer, it's always the first, and most often, thing to fail.
Huh. I'm as big a touchscreen hater as anyone, but they're solid state, unlike the knobs and buttons they replace (and also unlike computer fans). Why do they fail so early and often?
Solid state does not necessarily mean more durable or reliable. Think of a thin stem wine glass, it's solid state but wouldn't last long in a car. Then you could have something like vise grip pliers or a crescent wrench and that would last 100 years or more in a car and even last for millions and millions of use cycles.
Disclaimer: I'm an idiot, these are my random thoughts on the subject, I'm not an expert in lcd reliability, but have designed many products with LCD in them, or that were LCD displays themselves.
LCDs are solid state, but are still incredibly complex pieces of engineering. Early on in Teslas life there is a famous story about them using consumer grade (not automotive) in their cars because the latter simply wasn't available. This highlights an important difference between automotive applications and others. Automotive component specs are more stringent on vibration and thermL requirements than say consumer products or medical devices. It gets really hot inside the cabin of a car, also really cold. This thermal cycling, and vibration is hell on things that are sensitive to thermal shock like things made of composted of many different materials (glass, plastic, epoxy, clear conductive magic stuff, etc) which is exactly what a LCD screen is.
On the other hand, buttons are dead simple. Many are 3 or 4 parts, all super reliable and with great quality control.
Another way to think about it, is a plastic piece with two copper contacts, a spring (often molded into one of the plastic parts directly), and a plastic housing more complex or less reliable than the amazing complex beast that is a LCD display.
Disclaimer: I'm an idiot, these are my random thoughts on the subject, I'm not an expert in lcd reliability, but have designed many products with LCD in them, or that were LCD displays themselves.
LCDs are solid state, but are still incredibly complex pieces of engineering. Early on in Teslas life there is a famous story about them using consumer grade (not automotive) in their cars because the latter simply wasn't available. This highlights an important difference between automotive applications and others. Automotive component specs are more stringent on vibration and thermL requirements than say consumer products or medical devices. It gets really hot inside the cabin of a car, also really cold. This thermal cycling, and vibration is hell on things that are sensitive to thermal shock like things made of composted of many different materials (glass, plastic, epoxy, clear conductive magic stuff, etc) which is exactly what a LCD screen is.
On the other hand, buttons are dead simple. Many are 3 or 4 parts, all super reliable and with great quality control.
Another way to think about it, is a plastic piece with two copper contacts, a spring (often molded into one of the plastic parts directly), and a plastic housing more complex or less reliable than the amazing complex beast that is a LCD display.
It's also a lot harder to drop the touchscreen in your car than the one in your pocket.
I know I am playing Devil's Advocate here, but what about the guy who was mining crypto on his Tesla? That was definitely not a Tesla-approved change.
I've heard that electric cars are generally much more reliable than combustion engines: Much fewer parts that gain wear and tear. Have I been misled?
I've said it before... give me a basic work truck that's an EV. No exorbitant prices, no intrusive tech, no marketing or updates BS.
I think you don't really own even a petroleum vehicle. For example, an engine is controlled by non-FOSS computer device for fuel injecting. Another example, you can not turn off your seat-belt alert. Please note, I am not a big fun of carburetor engines or driving without seat-belts. But if I can not turn on an engine without running some malware and have to obey to some guy who has written what I ought to do while sitting in my car then I am not an owner of the engine and the rest of "my" car.
It's not available in any recent cars, but one of my cars has a mechanical fuel injection system that was commonly used on VWs, Porsches, Mercedes, and SAABs in the 80s. Working on this car I really get the sense that I do own it (for better or for worse)!
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If it's more complicated than a hammer, you don't own it. That's modern society.
Solution is easy, buy car that runs on open-source software. How can this be too hard?
I feel like I own my 2014 Nissan Leaf, and im gonna try to keep it running forever
Same goes for pretty much any modern computing device.
Sounds great. I hate having to own a car.
This article annoys me quite a bit. I don't even disagree with the author about how locking features behind paywalls, making repairs harder etc is bad. But that is in no way an EV problem, it is a shitty companies / missing legislation problem.
(I suppose EVs can, in some limited ways, be harder to repair than combustion cars, but that's like 10% of the point of the article maximum.)
(I suppose EVs can, in some limited ways, be harder to repair than combustion cars, but that's like 10% of the point of the article maximum.)
Ugh...as usual a combination of Capitalism and lack of proper regulation is turning car ownership into permanent car renting.
I am wondering when we are moving over to hydrogen powered vehicles already.
Hydrogen has some serious disadvantages for vehicles: it's very difficult to store and it is much more flammable, meaning refueling is much more hazardous. The only potential advantage to it would be if we could mine it, but since we don't live on Jupiter, we can't; we have to make it, and it costs more energy to make it than you get back out of it when you burn it.
> it costs more energy to make it than you get back out of it when you burn it.
This is fine. Gasoline has horrendous losses too.
The problem is that the most economical way of making hydrogen is by using fossil fuels(natural gas). Just burn the natural gas instead.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_reforming
This is fine. Gasoline has horrendous losses too.
The problem is that the most economical way of making hydrogen is by using fossil fuels(natural gas). Just burn the natural gas instead.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_reforming
> Gasoline has horrendous losses too.
I'm not sure what "horrendous" losses you're referring to, but I assume you mean losses due to inefficiency in combustion. That's not what I'm referring to. I'm referring to the fact that hydrogen does not occur in its combustible form on Earth. You can't just refine it by purifying something that comes out of the ground, the way gasoline is refined from crude oil. You have to produce it by some process that basically reverses the chemical reaction that will take place when you burn it. And since the chemical reaction of burning produces a large amount of energy (otherwise you wouldn't use it to do things like power cars), reversing that reaction requires a large amount of energy (which is why steam reforming, as the article you reference says, is strongly endothermic). All that is in addition to the thermodynamic losses that will occur during combustion when you burn the fuel.
I'm not sure what "horrendous" losses you're referring to, but I assume you mean losses due to inefficiency in combustion. That's not what I'm referring to. I'm referring to the fact that hydrogen does not occur in its combustible form on Earth. You can't just refine it by purifying something that comes out of the ground, the way gasoline is refined from crude oil. You have to produce it by some process that basically reverses the chemical reaction that will take place when you burn it. And since the chemical reaction of burning produces a large amount of energy (otherwise you wouldn't use it to do things like power cars), reversing that reaction requires a large amount of energy (which is why steam reforming, as the article you reference says, is strongly endothermic). All that is in addition to the thermodynamic losses that will occur during combustion when you burn the fuel.
Won't change a thing. Hydrogen vehicles ARE electric vehicles.
Hydrogen cars can be powered by combustion engines.
We will. The obsession with EVs won't last forever, especially given the finite supply of battery related metals.
Hydrogen won't happen in passenger vehicles and it's too expensive to produce for it to be used for much else.
Electricity is one of the fundamental forces. Using an element like hydrogen will never be as efficient.
To beat electricity, you may be able to do it by controlling one of the other fundamental forces such as gravity.
Electricity is one of the fundamental forces. Using an element like hydrogen will never be as efficient.
To beat electricity, you may be able to do it by controlling one of the other fundamental forces such as gravity.
Sounds like it was written by Putin
Kinda clickbaity.
I sure own my Porsche EV.
I don't have the daily thrills/hassles of the constant OTA updates, because they don't do them except for the radio.
Not concerned about repairability when the designs are so simple there's almost nothing to break...plus it has a good warranty.
I sure own my Porsche EV.
I don't have the daily thrills/hassles of the constant OTA updates, because they don't do them except for the radio.
Not concerned about repairability when the designs are so simple there's almost nothing to break...plus it has a good warranty.
> Cars now use an ETC (electronic throttle control) managed by a computer, as is just about everything else on engines these days. Naturally, this makes vehicles more difficult to repair, not to mention the glaring “right to repair” issue growing by the day when everything runs on a chip.
It isn't more difficult because anyone is conspiring against you. Maybe it's more difficult because electricity is invisible, the techniques require new knowledge, or you're not familiar with it. Go get some CAN bus debugging equipment, plug it into your high-speed CAN bus, move the accelerator pedal, and you'll see the CAN messages.
Although, there's usually no debugging necessary for your accelerator pedal, because you no longer need to lubricate your accelerator cable; bits don't require lubrication.
From an engineering perspective, it is very convenient (and reliable) to have everything in the car just sit on a communication bus and write software to do the logic, rather than have dedicated wires or mechanical connections.