Three areas where Google Search lags behind competitors: code, cooking, travel(surgehq.ai)
surgehq.ai
Three areas where Google Search lags behind competitors: code, cooking, travel
https://www.surgehq.ai//blog/google-search-is-falling-behind
361 comments
MSDN was really helpful once. I don't even know how they could destroy it relatively quickly. The current forums are indeed useless for the most part. I don't even know where to get deep technical information about MS tech stacks anymore.
> "please mark this issue as resolved so I can please my incompetent overlords with a point in a metric they are interested in because of the mentioned incompetence".
I agree that users tend to ask the right questions, but the lack of any coherent answer seems to be systematic.
Pinterest is spam if you don't have an account, which I would recommend to nobody because of such policies in the first place. Twitter did the same recently but at least it isn't as prominently featured in search results.
I don't know about w3schools. It did help me a few times. I guess because the content might be out of date? I am no web developer so I sometimes use it as a reference.
I think the worst aspect is that Google seems to favor news sites. Perhaps it is their SEO, but if a term you are looking up accidentally is part of a news article that was copied by tens of news outlets, you have to visit the dark net, page 2+ of Google results.
> "please mark this issue as resolved so I can please my incompetent overlords with a point in a metric they are interested in because of the mentioned incompetence".
I agree that users tend to ask the right questions, but the lack of any coherent answer seems to be systematic.
Pinterest is spam if you don't have an account, which I would recommend to nobody because of such policies in the first place. Twitter did the same recently but at least it isn't as prominently featured in search results.
I don't know about w3schools. It did help me a few times. I guess because the content might be out of date? I am no web developer so I sometimes use it as a reference.
I think the worst aspect is that Google seems to favor news sites. Perhaps it is their SEO, but if a term you are looking up accidentally is part of a news article that was copied by tens of news outlets, you have to visit the dark net, page 2+ of Google results.
Shameless plug for the Let's Block It project: we have a filter template to selectively remove domains from search results: https://letsblock.it/filters/search-results
For the Stackoverflow / Github clones, we partner with https://github.com/quenhus/uBlock-Origin-dev-filter and their lists are available as presets at the bottom of the filter configuration.
For the Stackoverflow / Github clones, we partner with https://github.com/quenhus/uBlock-Origin-dev-filter and their lists are available as presets at the bottom of the filter configuration.
That's awesome and exactly what we need. Never any shame in plugging an open source and free project. Would love to see this as a standalone browser plugin some day. Maybe even making it easier to create and share custom lists
Thanks for the feedback!
The site currently allows you to create one personal list that you can sync across all browsers, but I have plans to allow creating several lists and sharing some of them publicly
The main complexity will actually be in the frontend: how to make it easy to edit several instances, and check in what list you'll add a new filter?
The main complexity will actually be in the frontend: how to make it easy to edit several instances, and check in what list you'll add a new filter?
I would add Stackoverflow for a very significant amount of queries. In particular in the domain of web development extremely outdated answers are heavily outranking far better answers. It shows how domain/link age is a strong factor in ranking, which is also why w3schools ranks highly.
That's bad, but I can somewhat sympathize with it as these sites are not really purposefully gaming SEO. It's rather Google's poor handling or relevancy and recenctness.
That's an entirely different situation from scammers like pinterest. They clone content without permission and then rank higher than the original. They broadcast content to be open to search engines yet when you visit, it's behind a login.
The behavior of duplicating content will normally tank your ranking. Faking content to not be behind a login where it really is behind a login, may get you fully delisted.
But not pinterest, they seem to get a free pass for anything.
That's bad, but I can somewhat sympathize with it as these sites are not really purposefully gaming SEO. It's rather Google's poor handling or relevancy and recenctness.
That's an entirely different situation from scammers like pinterest. They clone content without permission and then rank higher than the original. They broadcast content to be open to search engines yet when you visit, it's behind a login.
The behavior of duplicating content will normally tank your ranking. Faking content to not be behind a login where it really is behind a login, may get you fully delisted.
But not pinterest, they seem to get a free pass for anything.
> alternativeto
I actually find alternativeto so useful that I usually just go directly to it instead of my search engine when looking for FOSS alternatives. Having to go to the alternative page before clicking the official site link is a small hassle compared to finding what's the official from name search, but it used to be better when the description page and the alternative page were the same. If I were to guesa, they probably changed because it would be confusing for people searching for alternatives and finding the software description.
I actually find alternativeto so useful that I usually just go directly to it instead of my search engine when looking for FOSS alternatives. Having to go to the alternative page before clicking the official site link is a small hassle compared to finding what's the official from name search, but it used to be better when the description page and the alternative page were the same. If I were to guesa, they probably changed because it would be confusing for people searching for alternatives and finding the software description.
It's my go to place for alternatives, so if it shows up odds are I wanted that result.
As many have mentioned, w3schools ranks high because it is actually used a lot more than MDN.
People love it because they don't have to read. Just copy and paste and you can get back to work. And that's fine. It's a nice thought that programmers should understand their code, but remember that article about 99% developers. They get work done, ideals only stand in the way.
The actual issue with w3schools is that the code that's available for copy-pasting is terrible. A lot of it looks like it either hasn't been updated since 90s or 00s, or at least whoever wrote it hasn't done web development since then. That's not necessarily bad, but for example JavaScript was much more of a pain back then, and you can now write much more maintainable code. Same for how HTML has progressed.
I wouldn't replace w3schools with some bleeding edge frontend practices, or even with the newest web standards, because those are even worse than using spaghetti code from the 90s. The former is way too complex for just copy-pasting, and the latter requires you to read about browser compatibility and other caveats, so it is harmful to just copy-paste it.
What I wish would replace w3schools, is a site that takes into account both why people love using w3schools, and still sets them on the right path to write maintainable code with at least some best practices considered.
People love it because they don't have to read. Just copy and paste and you can get back to work. And that's fine. It's a nice thought that programmers should understand their code, but remember that article about 99% developers. They get work done, ideals only stand in the way.
The actual issue with w3schools is that the code that's available for copy-pasting is terrible. A lot of it looks like it either hasn't been updated since 90s or 00s, or at least whoever wrote it hasn't done web development since then. That's not necessarily bad, but for example JavaScript was much more of a pain back then, and you can now write much more maintainable code. Same for how HTML has progressed.
I wouldn't replace w3schools with some bleeding edge frontend practices, or even with the newest web standards, because those are even worse than using spaghetti code from the 90s. The former is way too complex for just copy-pasting, and the latter requires you to read about browser compatibility and other caveats, so it is harmful to just copy-paste it.
What I wish would replace w3schools, is a site that takes into account both why people love using w3schools, and still sets them on the right path to write maintainable code with at least some best practices considered.
Half the programming questions I have are something along the line of:
"In this random language I'm using this week, is it strlen? len? length? count? And iIs it a static function or an object method?"
or
"How do I get the day of the week from a datetime variable again?"
Stupid little things where I just need a reminder. Half the time, the answer is in the search results themselves and doesn't even require a clickthrough. W3 is fine for those sorts of questions... it's brief and to the point, and the fact that it doesn't go into thorough explanations or weird edge cases is even a good thing.
"In this random language I'm using this week, is it strlen? len? length? count? And iIs it a static function or an object method?"
or
"How do I get the day of the week from a datetime variable again?"
Stupid little things where I just need a reminder. Half the time, the answer is in the search results themselves and doesn't even require a clickthrough. W3 is fine for those sorts of questions... it's brief and to the point, and the fact that it doesn't go into thorough explanations or weird edge cases is even a good thing.
pinterest is really the worst website ever, especially when you're looking for images.
don't they just steal content and then host it? pinterest is the worst when trying to prevent users to use their website when they're not logged in.
don't they just steal content and then host it? pinterest is the worst when trying to prevent users to use their website when they're not logged in.
I’d say it is that it is Microsoft’s faults that their answers sucks.
Most commonly asked questions you will be getting one of the three responses: 1. assume the user is at fault 2. it’s a “feature”, get over it 3. the official helper doesn’t know anyway so he/she just pasted a link to some random tutorial they found online which doesn’t work anyway
There really isn’t much that Google unless they kinda remove Microsoft at all.
Most commonly asked questions you will be getting one of the three responses: 1. assume the user is at fault 2. it’s a “feature”, get over it 3. the official helper doesn’t know anyway so he/she just pasted a link to some random tutorial they found online which doesn’t work anyway
There really isn’t much that Google unless they kinda remove Microsoft at all.
4. Talk utter bollocks about something else.
W3schools is wonderful, it's got great primers on a whole lot of languages and libraries with concise, clear explanations and examples.
It used to teach people bad coding practices and it had outdated information. It has improved but I am not ready to recommend it to anyone I like.
It has terribly outdated info today. MDN does everything it does but better and always up to date yet MDN almost always shows up after w3schools in my results
w3schools is a pretty good resource for very basic stuff. If you're a professional developer you're probably not going to find it useful but if you're recommending a website for an absolute beginner there are worse sites.
Maybe they have never been helpful to you, but w3schools, Microsoft answers, alternative websites, best of lists and Quora have all been helpful to me at some time.
You included MS Answers, but left out discussions.apple.com, which I find to be an even greater disappointment. This pair of $2T+ enterprises have failed so badly at something that should be table stakes.
How hard would it be to pay a small team to go through this tangled mess and clean it up and keep it that way? How little do they care about the attitudes of their users??
How hard would it be to pay a small team to go through this tangled mess and clean it up and keep it that way? How little do they care about the attitudes of their users??
Quora is the first site that I ended up blacklisting by DNS, even before rpz and pi-hole were a thing. I felt dirty every time I inadvertently ended up on that site.
Thanks for the idea.
I use uBlacklist to remove these from my seach results:
https://github.com/iorate/ublacklist
https://blog.probabletrain.com/hide-w3schools-from-search-re...
With some lists to block the SO and Github clones:
https://github.com/arosh/ublacklist-stackoverflow-translatio...
https://github.com/arosh/ublacklist-github-translation
https://github.com/iorate/ublacklist
https://blog.probabletrain.com/hide-w3schools-from-search-re...
With some lists to block the SO and Github clones:
https://github.com/arosh/ublacklist-stackoverflow-translatio...
https://github.com/arosh/ublacklist-github-translation
Gah, why do we need another blocking addon? Because previously blocking addons have worked out really well. Why can't this have just been a uBlock Origin list?
Thanks! I saw this in a leaf comment of my original comment. Much better.
> 5. all alternative to / review sites like capterra, g2, alternativeto, etc. They might have some good suggestions but they always hide the link to the software/site and instead link it to their spammy page. So you have to select part of the link and then re-search it on Google. Doing this for OSS projects can sometimes lead to a whole new rabbit hole.
Wow I've never had this pop up for me tbh. I wish alternativeto would come up more often, it's a really great resource and it's all crowd-sourced so it's very valuable information. Definitely wouldn't classify it as seo spam
Wow I've never had this pop up for me tbh. I wish alternativeto would come up more often, it's a really great resource and it's all crowd-sourced so it's very valuable information. Definitely wouldn't classify it as seo spam
I don’t understand the hate for w3schools. I found this site super useful when I was first learning web development.
w3schools was useful when it first came out years ago. It's probably riding on its initial utility. I remember when the w3fools site was released later (https://www.w3fools.com/)
Would add cplusplus.com to this list. Cppreference is just a better resource in every way.
pinterest completely destroyed google images and is now starting to infect duckduckgo
I remember W3schools being an excellent resource closer to the beginning of my career (a decade ago?), but now I barely ever enter. But I always thought it's me who outgrew it not that it became worse...
I feel like their site hasn't been overhauled in about 8 years.
w3schools isnt perfect but they are god for html and css syntax.
g2 is actually used quite a lot by businesses looking for alternative service providers.
Alternativeto is quite good in my experience.
w3schools is good.
MDN is usually a much better resource.
It depends.
MDN has a better overall information and is more in depth. And more up-to-date.
On the other hand, w3schools has that one three-line CSS snippet that you need to copy-paste to center your DIV vertically or whatever, without 5 paragraphs of intro.
MDN has a better overall information and is more in depth. And more up-to-date.
On the other hand, w3schools has that one three-line CSS snippet that you need to copy-paste to center your DIV vertically or whatever, without 5 paragraphs of intro.
MDN is much more complicated. I almost always get my answer faster and easier to understand with w3schools. Plus quick little things like browser support and try it (which mdn also has now)
MDN is generally too technical.
As it should be. It's a resource for professional developers, not people who are learning how to code for the first time.
Professional developers enjoy simple and concise explanations just as much as people who are coding for the first time.
I think the problem is that w3schools _was_ terrible. It certainly seems to have improved, but it's reputation - amongst the older coders that I know, at least - is in the toilet
Google regresses to the mean - what do most people want to see on the top? just from comments on this thread, people both love and hate w3schools.
So I think there's a need for personalized search engines where one can pick their sources - we designed You.com keeping that in mind.
fwiw i hate w3schools too, if anyone's counting
So I think there's a need for personalized search engines where one can pick their sources - we designed You.com keeping that in mind.
fwiw i hate w3schools too, if anyone's counting
I know google search is probably not the same as google flights, but I spent a few hours recently (over a few days) using google flights and it was a delight to use compared to the Expedia children.
We had a bereavement in the family and had to book multiple independent tickets because we could not travel together. This was just after the Ukraine war started so prices had gone through the roof. Exact number of days was not that important as compared to the price and the duration and using google flights UI to slice and dice the data was such a joy. Want to freeze the airline and look at the alternatives - which include from and to dates, number of days of trips, or freeze any other parameter and analyze others, the response was sub-second. Did not eventually book through them since I did not want to get into the google payment system (they offer booking through others that I did not explore).
On the opposite side was Expedia children where they would show a price of 2800 and when you click the price invariably it has gone up to 3600. Again. And again. And again. Not sure if that problem existed with google although I paid the exact same price as the airline as shown by google, it could just be a coincidence.
We had a bereavement in the family and had to book multiple independent tickets because we could not travel together. This was just after the Ukraine war started so prices had gone through the roof. Exact number of days was not that important as compared to the price and the duration and using google flights UI to slice and dice the data was such a joy. Want to freeze the airline and look at the alternatives - which include from and to dates, number of days of trips, or freeze any other parameter and analyze others, the response was sub-second. Did not eventually book through them since I did not want to get into the google payment system (they offer booking through others that I did not explore).
On the opposite side was Expedia children where they would show a price of 2800 and when you click the price invariably it has gone up to 3600. Again. And again. And again. Not sure if that problem existed with google although I paid the exact same price as the airline as shown by google, it could just be a coincidence.
Google flight's true genius is being able to search multiple city-pairs.
Let's say you want to get from the West Coast to Europe on a business class flight, but want to save some money.
Realistically, it's cheap and easy to get from West Coast airport to another, and similarly cheap and easy to get form one European airport to another.
Google flights will let you search for the best combination of flights that depart from any combination of up to 6 airports, and arrive at up to 6 airports. The technology they purchased (ITA) will let you do this as well, but limits you to a single country. Google flights? No problem with destination airports in multiple countries.
So, you could search for a flight that originates in some combination of, say Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, Los Angeles and Vancouver BC, and lands in some combination of London, Amsterdam, Paris, Madrid, Milan or Frankfurt. (Or any other 6 large European airports).
Google Flights will also show fares for a specific trip length (say, 14-days) over an entire month.
Want to filter by a maximum flight duration? No problem. Number of connections? Done. Specific airline or alliance? Easy.
In a traditional search engine, I'd have to run close to 400 individual searches to get the data that Google Flights gives me in a single screen.
It works well for domestic flights as well. I recently helped someone who had to attend a wedding across the country find a flight that was less than $180/person, when they thought they were going to have to pay over $800/person. Just by using Google Flight's tools for about 10 minutes.
There's plenty to complain about in the Google ecosystem, but Google Flights is amazing.
Let's say you want to get from the West Coast to Europe on a business class flight, but want to save some money.
Realistically, it's cheap and easy to get from West Coast airport to another, and similarly cheap and easy to get form one European airport to another.
Google flights will let you search for the best combination of flights that depart from any combination of up to 6 airports, and arrive at up to 6 airports. The technology they purchased (ITA) will let you do this as well, but limits you to a single country. Google flights? No problem with destination airports in multiple countries.
So, you could search for a flight that originates in some combination of, say Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, Los Angeles and Vancouver BC, and lands in some combination of London, Amsterdam, Paris, Madrid, Milan or Frankfurt. (Or any other 6 large European airports).
Google Flights will also show fares for a specific trip length (say, 14-days) over an entire month.
Want to filter by a maximum flight duration? No problem. Number of connections? Done. Specific airline or alliance? Easy.
In a traditional search engine, I'd have to run close to 400 individual searches to get the data that Google Flights gives me in a single screen.
It works well for domestic flights as well. I recently helped someone who had to attend a wedding across the country find a flight that was less than $180/person, when they thought they were going to have to pay over $800/person. Just by using Google Flight's tools for about 10 minutes.
There's plenty to complain about in the Google ecosystem, but Google Flights is amazing.
You can do the same thing in momondo. Being in Europe, what I like about momondo is that they include the cheap carriers - like ryanair
The product was called ITA Matrix, Google bought them a while back
I find https://www.kiwi.com/en/ works well for doing all of this too.
Google bought the main provider of flight information in 2010 (ITA). ITA had such a monopoly that Google was required to continue licensing their software out for years afterwards, though I think it expired in ~2016.
ITA Matrix is still available and is my preferred flight search tool. Still find the old interface much better than the new:
https://oldmatrix.itasoftware.com/
https://oldmatrix.itasoftware.com/
I wonder how much of the old Lisp codebase is left.
Also, it looks like the Matrix might go extinct soon:
> This interface runs on a deprecated web platform. At some point in the near future, we will be forced to shut it down. We unfortunately do not have a timeline on when this will happen. We welcome feedback about features missing from the new interface, we read all feedback and open bugs accordingly.
Also, it looks like the Matrix might go extinct soon:
> This interface runs on a deprecated web platform. At some point in the near future, we will be forced to shut it down. We unfortunately do not have a timeline on when this will happen. We welcome feedback about features missing from the new interface, we read all feedback and open bugs accordingly.
it's pretty horrible, I just search my vacation destination and it doesn't have LCC Wizzair I'm flying with in Europe = useless search tool
At least on my searches with Google Flights, Wizzair shows up as a carrier for EU flights.
Good search engine for low cost EU carriers is https://www.azair.eu/
Azair doesn't really work either anymore, they will show you non-existent flights or wrong prices, for rough idea is OK, but data is wrong
That's on the LCC, not the aggregator. They don't want to pay commission, and that's fine. If you want to fly on them you have to actually go on their website.
I don't really care who pays who, but search engine which can't find me cheapest flights it's useless
Well, you're getting it free: if you don't get any use from it, don't use it. Try doing an iterated search of every possible route on every possible airline website and let us know how you get on!
1. just because something is free it's not excuse to provide poor service
2. I don't use it, I point out for others facts about service OP recommends so they don't waste their time or you prefer everyone wasting their time?
2. I don't use it, I point out for others facts about service OP recommends so they don't waste their time or you prefer everyone wasting their time?
Minor note: they announced it in 2010, but the acquisition closed on April 12, 2011. [1]
[1] https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2011/04/ita-software-acquisi...
[1] https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2011/04/ita-software-acquisi...
Here is the latest version of ITA Matrix as a google hack https://partnerdash.google.com/apps/matrix/search
I personally like to use Momondo. Have had pretty good experience with Momondo over the years so far. I haven’t tried Expedia, so I can’t directly compare it. But I recommend giving Momondo a try anyways.
I will also plug Kayak as being the only other decent flight search site.
The difference between Kayak/Google and the others is that Expedia and friends are online travel agencies. Kayak and Google are really just search engines. It makes a world of difference.
The difference between Kayak/Google and the others is that Expedia and friends are online travel agencies. Kayak and Google are really just search engines. It makes a world of difference.
Can you explain what is the difference? I suppose the flight search engines don't book the flights.
I miss Hipmunk, and curse the day Concur bought them.
Same! Their “agony” sorting (basically sorted flights by a combination of # of stops, total hours, and price) was a breakthrough at the time. It seems to be factored into most flight searches today, even though it’s not labeled as such.
Google flights is delightfully easy to use
The one thing I wish that Google offered would be the ability to blacklist sites for a period (coud be fixed - say 6 months).
So damn annoying when the top search results all lead to shitty SEO-optimised sites that use a whole page to blather on and on, leading to a tiny information nugget at the end. No value, just excellent SEO scamming.
As these scam artists get better and better at this, Google gets less and less useful.
When I see a site like that, I can be quite sure there is no value to me from that site. I want to blacklist it - not forever (though I'd settle for that) but so I don't see it in search results again.
The crazy thing is that this could even be a benefit for Google themselves. They could aggregate these signals and use them to identify SEO scammers, since their algorithms clearly can't. I'm sure that Google aren't happy with the lacklustre performance of their search in modern times.
So damn annoying when the top search results all lead to shitty SEO-optimised sites that use a whole page to blather on and on, leading to a tiny information nugget at the end. No value, just excellent SEO scamming.
As these scam artists get better and better at this, Google gets less and less useful.
When I see a site like that, I can be quite sure there is no value to me from that site. I want to blacklist it - not forever (though I'd settle for that) but so I don't see it in search results again.
The crazy thing is that this could even be a benefit for Google themselves. They could aggregate these signals and use them to identify SEO scammers, since their algorithms clearly can't. I'm sure that Google aren't happy with the lacklustre performance of their search in modern times.
> Blocks sites you specify from appearing in Google search results
This extension prevents the sites you specify from appearing in Google search results.
https://github.com/iorate/ublacklist
https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/ublacklist/pncfbmi...
https://github.com/iorate/ublacklist
https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/ublacklist/pncfbmi...
I use uBlacklist in Safari - highly recommended. In Chrome I have a custom search string that adds "-pinterest -quora" because result on those spammy sites are behind a login wall
Ironically I tried to find a blacklist extension or similar through Google search past week, and couldn't find it due to blogspam talking about how it used to be. So added reddit and clicked in past year, but reddit now doesn't show accurate dates on posts so that didn't work.
Thanks, will add this!
Thanks, will add this!
> The one thing I wish that Google offered would be the ability to blacklist sites for a period (coud be fixed - say 6 months).
I wish I could do that at Hacker News too.
I really just don't want anything from medium.com.
I wish I could do that at Hacker News too.
I really just don't want anything from medium.com.
That's a weird thought. Medium might be irritating as an interface or as a business but there are still some really interesting things written on it, no?
There may be good content on medium, but more often than not I'm frustrated by long-winded, less accurate retellings of official documentation. I think it might be because of the monetization. People have an incentive to write shallow blog posts/tutorials on things like "throwing an exception with Python." If I'm out of options I will skim through a Medium post, but usually I avoid them at first because they tend to be less helpful than non-Medium blogs, official docs, etc.
This is completely anecdotal but most medium (and similar platforms) that I end up on from HN are basically an A4 page of what is essentially nothingness.
This is not to say it’s not interesting, because it is, but what typically happens is that I end up in the “want to know more” state, but then don’t actually get to know more. This is not really on the medium authors, it’s more just my social media consumption taking me back to HN and then never looking into it again, but that also means that my time on the medium article was sort of wasted doesn’t it?
I can’t for the life of me remember a single medium article that had any sort of impact on me or anything I do tech wise.
This is not to say it’s not interesting, because it is, but what typically happens is that I end up in the “want to know more” state, but then don’t actually get to know more. This is not really on the medium authors, it’s more just my social media consumption taking me back to HN and then never looking into it again, but that also means that my time on the medium article was sort of wasted doesn’t it?
I can’t for the life of me remember a single medium article that had any sort of impact on me or anything I do tech wise.
I've found the Medium posts that make it to Hacker News to be drivel: Uninteresting and inaccurate. The titles themselves are interesting, but the content itself isn't worth reading.
It's happened so much that I just won't click on anything that's on medium.com.
It's happened so much that I just won't click on anything that's on medium.com.
I've noticed the same thing, but (like n=2, so take it with a grain of salt) even for authors whose other writings I enjoy; I wonder if there's something weird with how they structure the incentives for writing there such that this is what you get
Seems like you could do that in a reasonably thorough way on HN with an ad block filter.
Quick and dirty version for uBlock Origin:
news.ycombinator.com##tr.athing:has(a[href*="medium.com"])
news.ycombinator.com##tr.athing:has(a[href*="medium.com"]) + tr
news.ycombinator.com##tr.athing:has(a[href*="medium.com"]) + tr + tr.spacer
[deleted]
There is a programmable search feature [0] that lets you limit search to a defined list of sites. Someone did a ShowHN a few months ago where they had built a programmable search with 200ish common sites that a stereotype HN reader might like (software documentation, wikipedia, reddit, some news and other media, etc), and it was actually pretty good.
I've said before, google is now basically what I'd call a "smart" portal site. For most stuff, you already know the handful of sites you might want to look at, and google just sort of brings you there from a relatively clean interface, as opposed to a traditional portal that would have lots of categorized nested links to traverse. In most cases you're not searching for a random site that you wouldn't know existed if it wasn't indexed, like in 1998. So the whitelist approach actually works pretty well.
[0] https://developers.google.com/custom-search/
I've said before, google is now basically what I'd call a "smart" portal site. For most stuff, you already know the handful of sites you might want to look at, and google just sort of brings you there from a relatively clean interface, as opposed to a traditional portal that would have lots of categorized nested links to traverse. In most cases you're not searching for a random site that you wouldn't know existed if it wasn't indexed, like in 1998. So the whitelist approach actually works pretty well.
[0] https://developers.google.com/custom-search/
You're looking for https://notrashsearch.github.io/
HN comments: [Show HN: No Trash Search](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29774456)
HN comments: [Show HN: No Trash Search](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29774456)
Current Google search doesn't add features, it removes them (see end of + sign and other stuff). This is sadly the logical behavior of a "mature product". When you own the market, your rational question is "how much can I extract from the customers who already must come to me" and that means becoming more and more directive towards the customer. Letting the customers customize only stands against this.
This used to be a feature of Google Search. It then moved from the Google Account to Chrome. I'm not sure if it still exists in the Chrome browser. It can be done with addons but of course that doesn't feed back to Google.
It does surprise me that Google wouldn't want to capture this signal. Maybe it is too susceptible to abuse?
It does surprise me that Google wouldn't want to capture this signal. Maybe it is too susceptible to abuse?
It surprises me too. Perhaps they are snow blind from having had something like it in the past and then removing it.
But in the modern era, I feel that being able to use human signals like that - on top of the fancy algorithms - could well be a killer network effect for them.
But in the modern era, I feel that being able to use human signals like that - on top of the fancy algorithms - could well be a killer network effect for them.
The SEO dreck drives more ad impressions than real content. Why would they improve the results when they have a captive audience who won't switch to other search providers.
[deleted]
This is not only a problem with Google search. DDG is now also flooded with auto (AI?) generated content. For example there are now loads of websites about programming topics. They look real but always lack the main point of the article which makes you navigate to other articles on the same website.
>As these scam artists get better and better at this, Google gets less and less useful.
Any ranking manoeuvrability that Google offers can and will be used against them.
The SEO scammers out there would just automate millions of proxy IP addresses to blacklist all of their competitors sites.
Any ranking manoeuvrability that Google offers can and will be used against them.
The SEO scammers out there would just automate millions of proxy IP addresses to blacklist all of their competitors sites.
But the blacklist would be personal, so applying only to me.
This is a great idea. On YouTube I use the 'Don't recommend channel' button a lot and consequently the algorithm has learned to filter out a lot of the nonsense.
This button doesn’t really work for me. Often I need to click it multiple times before a video dissapears from my recommendations. Same with the ‘Not interested’ button.
I’m guessing YT works with a system that is ‘eventually consistent’, but having to click the button 2-3 times before a video disappears doesn’t seem particularly consistent to me.
I’m guessing YT works with a system that is ‘eventually consistent’, but having to click the button 2-3 times before a video disappears doesn’t seem particularly consistent to me.
I always assumed that they were getting paid.
I can’t think of any reason why a spam Pinterest link has any value, yet it’s ranked high.
I can’t think of any reason why a spam Pinterest link has any value, yet it’s ranked high.
Pinterest has a surprisingly large userbase of people who actually like the content there.
There are a lot of real world people I meet who speak highly of all the great creative ideas they get from there.
There are a lot of real world people I meet who speak highly of all the great creative ideas they get from there.
I don’t care, they are a blight on the internet that deserves to end. I have NEVER wanted to see a Pinterest board in my Google search results image or otherwise and their SEO optimisation serves only to parasitically drive traffic in order to feed their conversion funnel.
If your Pinterest board is public and you let others see it that’s nice, but the Pinterest developers should never have let that show up in my search results, your board is not and will never be more interesting than the original content you have pinned from other places on the internet, shitty aggregate pin pages hurt original content producers by ranking better and stealing page views and preventing users from navigating to the original content without jumping through hoops in the Pinterest user interface.
If your Pinterest board is public and you let others see it that’s nice, but the Pinterest developers should never have let that show up in my search results, your board is not and will never be more interesting than the original content you have pinned from other places on the internet, shitty aggregate pin pages hurt original content producers by ranking better and stealing page views and preventing users from navigating to the original content without jumping through hoops in the Pinterest user interface.
It's still completely useless for people who are not on Pinterest.
Kagi.com allows such blacklisting.
I'd say it depends on the money they make. I'm not sure how, but it must be profitable enough for them to let it persist.
I've a good experience with uBlacklist, an extension that blocks results by domain in the search page results.
> So damn annoying when the top search results all lead to shitty SEO-optimised sites ...
The problem is, since these sites dominate the SERPS, there is little incentive for anyone to offer the result you want. As a consequence, the web page that would satisfy your request probably doesn't exist.
The problem is, since these sites dominate the SERPS, there is little incentive for anyone to offer the result you want. As a consequence, the web page that would satisfy your request probably doesn't exist.
I started adding "reddit" to all my searches in google, cause 99.9% of time all google links point to seo rubbish.
It is absolutely impossible to find anything anymore, I gave up on google for all intents and purposes and use it exclusively as reddit indexer.
It is absolutely impossible to find anything anymore, I gave up on google for all intents and purposes and use it exclusively as reddit indexer.
You.com lets you prefer reddit and see it in your search
The problem, as always, is credibility. If they're not careful about the credibility of the aggregate blocking signal, this would become another tool in the SEO scammer toolbox as they use sockpuppet accounts to downmoderate their competitors.
I’m sure someone is going to point this out but guess what happens when scammers find out their site can be black listed?
They get crowds of people and/or scripts to blacklist all other sites.
They get crowds of people and/or scripts to blacklist all other sites.
Aw man... that would destroy pinterest.
I believe -site:facebook will remove that site from your queries. Annoying but it is functional.
This will create Perverse incentive, SEO "ninjas" will just mass-block competitors.
kagi.com allows you to adjust from the results page how often you want to see a page in the results or just block it entirely. I don't think there is a way to temporarily ban though.
ublacklist is a browser extension that does what you want. it works well and i don't find myself having to blacklist new sites very often
A HOSTS file for search would be most welcome.
Google used to allow you to block individual domains right from the search UI. It was discontinued in 2011.
There are numerous extensions to block domains, like uBlacklist: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/ublacklist/pncfbmi... (not affiliated)
There are numerous extensions to block domains, like uBlacklist: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/ublacklist/pncfbmi... (not affiliated)
An interesting observation is that over the years, I've sort of found that if there are not many good results, maybe I'm not asking the right questions, or I'm not thinking about the problem the right way. For example, you come up with some weird programming idea to solve a problem and no results are found -- I'm almost always headed down the wrong path. This has been proved to me over and over again as sort of a canary in the search coal mine.
Google still solves all my questions, if I'm asking the right questions, I guess is what I'm getting at.
Google still solves all my questions, if I'm asking the right questions, I guess is what I'm getting at.
>"if there are not many good results, maybe I'm not asking the right questions"
I used to think this way too, but I've come to realize that Google has turned from a search engine that returns results based on my input to an answer engine that actively tries to reframe whatever I enter into some other more generic query - usually with the intent of selling me something or returning SEO spam. I've also found that the old google-fu techniques are now so unreliable that they must have been deprecated. I can't tell you how often I use quotes in my query and see results that don't contain that text at all.
I used to think this way too, but I've come to realize that Google has turned from a search engine that returns results based on my input to an answer engine that actively tries to reframe whatever I enter into some other more generic query - usually with the intent of selling me something or returning SEO spam. I've also found that the old google-fu techniques are now so unreliable that they must have been deprecated. I can't tell you how often I use quotes in my query and see results that don't contain that text at all.
Back when I started at Google, they at least said they actively targeted "long-tail" queries to gain market share. The thinking was that people would use a search engine until they hit some query that their usual search engine failed on. Then they'd give another search engine (perhaps Google) a try, so if you really targeted those tough queries and were at least decent at the common queries, you'd gain market share.
Though, even when I was doing indexing changes at Google, the common practice was to do A/B testing with both the most common queries and a uniformly random sample (see reservoir sampling) of queries in order to justify a go-live of indexing changes. The former explicitly over-weights common queries, and the latter still optimizes for the common case. (In case you're wondering, the worst query I had to manually check in A/B testing was [flesh hook suspension].)
Google used to turn off some of the query re-writing logic (that tries to fix your query) if you used a query operator. (It has been a while, but I think maybe even their "Kansas" user info database kept track of the last time you used an operator, and would turn off some of the cleverness if you had recently used a search operator, as it was a good signal that you were a power user capable of optimizing your own queries.) My understanding is that they don't disable any of the too-clever bits for power users any more, and that everything uses all of the cleverness of learn-to-rank all the time.
I suspect it has gotten even worse with learn-to-rank, as it must be incredibly difficult to intentionally under-weight the uncommon/difficult queries.
They did keep track of when users re-issued similar queries in a short period, as a signal that the ranking algorithm wasn't doing well. I think an optimal system would use learn-to-rank for the first query in a related sequence of queries, and then switch to turning some of the smarts off, and finally switching to a learn-to-rank algorithm trained only on later queries in these related query sequences. That way, they can avoid the secondary learn-to-rank instance from over-fitting the median/easy queries.
Though, even when I was doing indexing changes at Google, the common practice was to do A/B testing with both the most common queries and a uniformly random sample (see reservoir sampling) of queries in order to justify a go-live of indexing changes. The former explicitly over-weights common queries, and the latter still optimizes for the common case. (In case you're wondering, the worst query I had to manually check in A/B testing was [flesh hook suspension].)
Google used to turn off some of the query re-writing logic (that tries to fix your query) if you used a query operator. (It has been a while, but I think maybe even their "Kansas" user info database kept track of the last time you used an operator, and would turn off some of the cleverness if you had recently used a search operator, as it was a good signal that you were a power user capable of optimizing your own queries.) My understanding is that they don't disable any of the too-clever bits for power users any more, and that everything uses all of the cleverness of learn-to-rank all the time.
I suspect it has gotten even worse with learn-to-rank, as it must be incredibly difficult to intentionally under-weight the uncommon/difficult queries.
They did keep track of when users re-issued similar queries in a short period, as a signal that the ranking algorithm wasn't doing well. I think an optimal system would use learn-to-rank for the first query in a related sequence of queries, and then switch to turning some of the smarts off, and finally switching to a learn-to-rank algorithm trained only on later queries in these related query sequences. That way, they can avoid the secondary learn-to-rank instance from over-fitting the median/easy queries.
They taught us the search engine operators in elementary school computer class. It’s a shame that they’ve gone away now, and the internet is so much worse than it was then.
Nowadays you should google using what in 2005 would be considered "the wrong way to search". Back then it was all about keywords, quotes and so on. For example if you wanted to know if dogs could eat apples you'd search:
> dog apple dangerous
Today you should search:
> can dogs eat apples
And you get way better results with the second form. I've noticed that people who are stuck thinking that the right way to google is still the former overlap a lot with the crowd that keeps complaining google is worse now than it was before.
> dog apple dangerous
Today you should search:
> can dogs eat apples
And you get way better results with the second form. I've noticed that people who are stuck thinking that the right way to google is still the former overlap a lot with the crowd that keeps complaining google is worse now than it was before.
I’d argue that it’s not a “better way”, but rather a regression: I assume Google genuinely wants to understand my query, and I don’t see any reason why it shouldn’t still be obvious to Google what kind of results it should return.
Otherwise, it there truly is a “right way of asking Google questions”, why doesn’t Google release and promote a guide about it so people can be more successful in their search?
Otherwise, it there truly is a “right way of asking Google questions”, why doesn’t Google release and promote a guide about it so people can be more successful in their search?
Okay, so answer me this... I'm trying to find out about the extra controls in the old space suits. I believe they used a chin switch or chin toggle (resistive). If I google "did astronauts control things with their chin" I see: 'It's All Different for Women in Space | Marie Claire' and 'Pillsbury Space Food Sticks were sweet Slim Jims in space' as the first 2 answers... nothing about switches. If I google 'space suit chin switch' I get links to resistivity toggle switches.
heck I was putting in exact model numbers today like MS3015S20-27SZ and google was returning me OTHER models such as MS3015S20-27PZ which is the male or female version of a part (PZ vs SZ), or changing the20-27 to a 29-4 which are all completely different parts. This is with verbatim on.
I could very well be biased, but the first example still seems more useful than the second.
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=dog%20apple%20dangerou...
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=can%20dogs%20eat%20app...
Also worth comparing (seems to focus more on diabetes than cyanoglycosides. Diabetes is the bigger chronic problem, and cyanoglycosides are the bigger acute problem, so which is a bigger danger largely depends on how disciplined the owner is.):
https://www.google.com/search?q=what+is+dangerous+about+feed...
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=dog%20apple%20dangerou...
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=can%20dogs%20eat%20app...
Also worth comparing (seems to focus more on diabetes than cyanoglycosides. Diabetes is the bigger chronic problem, and cyanoglycosides are the bigger acute problem, so which is a bigger danger largely depends on how disciplined the owner is.):
https://www.google.com/search?q=what+is+dangerous+about+feed...
Another thing for us on HN to note. This is how most people ask questions. It is not just that the other way is wrong - it is also less common.
Ya of course, but my natural inclination is not to ask a question to a web page
Right - I think this is part of the "scaling" of the internet. Those of us (relatively small set of earlier heavy internet users) are forced to change as the product is built for the wider audience.
I'm in the awkward middle area I think where I'm almost a digital native, and what you said maps perfectly to my experience. In middle school and high school I got pretty good at the first type of search you mentioned. I was young enough that I was almost learning how to "speak" google and it came easily, I was fluent. Throughout the end of high school and into college I had more and more issues finding what I wanted and one day after I had failed to search several times I thought to myself "Fuck it. I'm just going to type in exactly what I want in plain English, as if I was a moron, and see what happens." And it worked, and that day a lightbulb went off in my head.
I think this also indicates why Google seems to have gotten worse at programming questions.
If “you’re doing it wrong” didn’t fly with Apple. It doesn’t fly with Google.
I hate it as much as any other geek, but it did pretty much fly with apple. Even when it was as bad as "You're holding your phone wrong" bad.
I've noticed the same, and it's an incredibly hard habit to break!
"you're thinking about it wrong" isn't really that great a defense of Google, you know? I'm not being flippant. The two examples you gave are different searches, with different goals.
>answer engine that actively tries to reframe whatever I enter into some other more generic query
Google has come full circle and turned into Ask Jeeves.
Google has come full circle and turned into Ask Jeeves.
Be careful. Maybe it's a useful rule of thumb, but be careful of the "searching for your keys under the light pole" problem.
I worked at Google on rich content indexing for 4 years, more than a decade ago now. Google is pretty good. It used to really cater to "long tail" searches, but a combination of SEOs getting better (and specifically targeting Google) and "learn to rank" over-optimizing for the median query, means that lots of long-tail queries don't do very well on Google.
I worked at Google on rich content indexing for 4 years, more than a decade ago now. Google is pretty good. It used to really cater to "long tail" searches, but a combination of SEOs getting better (and specifically targeting Google) and "learn to rank" over-optimizing for the median query, means that lots of long-tail queries don't do very well on Google.
This is a great way to describe it. Google still gives me good results for the common stuff, but really fails me when I'm looking for something in the "long tail".
I just wish I could find obscure things again.
I just wish I could find obscure things again.
I wish there was a way to get rid of all sellers from results. Of late I have had to dig 2-3 pages in to get to anything which wasn't an online store.
There is, use a different search engine. I've even found something as new as Andisearch good for finding research papers and Qwant good for general searching. There are many more and they keep up with Google pretty well now without the trash.
What is a common query? facebook.com?
Some very impressive search capabilities needed for that query there.
More than a decade ago, Google had some special-case logic for these "navigational queries". Lee Kai-Fu (head of Google China at the time) said that navigational queries were particularly prevalent in Chinese search traffic.
Though, there's also a use case for people trying to find third-party information about various websites, particularly in trying to figure out if the website itself is a scam. You really want to have the navigational result up at the top unless you have a very high degree of confidence that the site is a scam, but in all cases you want high quality reviews of the site to follow up the navigational link.
Though, there's also a use case for people trying to find third-party information about various websites, particularly in trying to figure out if the website itself is a scam. You really want to have the navigational result up at the top unless you have a very high degree of confidence that the site is a scam, but in all cases you want high quality reviews of the site to follow up the navigational link.
Probably something like: "food delivery near me"
I wish I could find forums with my answer instead of a multitude of websites and blogs that do not answer my query. I guess I could add 'forum' or something but when I am already searching a specific query and particular piece of hardware I don't need the first page to show me retailers of said hardware.
Tried it, blog spam mentions finding or not finding stuff in forums way too much and it basically didn’t help unless I started getting into weird Google fu like including strings from the copyright footer of various forums in an advanced search using the OR operator and multiple quoted sections … at which point I was like “why am I working this hard on making Google better when they don’t fucking pay me”
> For example, you come up with some (...) idea (...) and no results are found -- I'm almost always headed down the wrong path.
And by that you mean, Google is telling you how to think, and that you should think in some way and not in some other way. I'm quite sure I am not comfortable with that.
And by that you mean, Google is telling you how to think, and that you should think in some way and not in some other way. I'm quite sure I am not comfortable with that.
[deleted]
And what do you do about this discomfort? Asking for a friend who is also uncomfortable with that "guidance".
This resonated a lot with me. Often if I'm learning a language and I see no one is doing what I'm querying for, I take a step back and try to ask a more basic question
I googled a phone number recently. It was the first result, got my answer. The rest of the results were websites for physical locations I had been recently, including a hospital, none of which had any relationship to the phone number.
Google is _not_ a good guideline for asking the right questions. It is trying to make as much money as possible and it will scramble anything it can think of to do that. Don't use that as a guideline for how you are thinking about questions.
Google is _not_ a good guideline for asking the right questions. It is trying to make as much money as possible and it will scramble anything it can think of to do that. Don't use that as a guideline for how you are thinking about questions.
1. Show visited locations in search results
2. ???
3. Make as much money as possible
2. ???
3. Make as much money as possible
> 2. ???
oh Haha, funny old meme. Step 2 though is very clearly to show more ads and more content, to show more 'full results pages', etc, rather than just show me the 1 thing I needed and be on my way.
I should include that Google said next to each result ('"555-555-555" is not on this page') and then show the page. Totally knows that the results are unrelated to my query, but shows them anyway. Why?
oh Haha, funny old meme. Step 2 though is very clearly to show more ads and more content, to show more 'full results pages', etc, rather than just show me the 1 thing I needed and be on my way.
I should include that Google said next to each result ('"555-555-555" is not on this page') and then show the page. Totally knows that the results are unrelated to my query, but shows them anyway. Why?
So was there even a single ad on that search result page? From your original description it certainly didn't sound so. If not, how did it contribute to you being shown more ads?
For code maybe that's true. It's hard to see how I might be wrong about the place I want to travel to or the recipe I want to cook though.
it's not really that Google lags, but rather SEOers have optimized for Google. The problem is intractable. When people talk about the 'good ol days' or times when Google was better, it was simply because there was less SEO, less spam and generally fewer pages on the internet.
Google could be better than it is now, but there's no incentive to do so, unfortunately. Say Google allowed you to blacklist entire sites from the results - inevitably those sites that have the most ads would be the most likely to be blocked, resulting in lower revenue for Google.
Google could be better than it is now, but there's no incentive to do so, unfortunately. Say Google allowed you to blacklist entire sites from the results - inevitably those sites that have the most ads would be the most likely to be blocked, resulting in lower revenue for Google.
The fact that recipes on on this list suggests this is the case.
Recipe sites are notorious for SEO tactics. They all follow the same highly optimized format with the stupid story about the author's grandma and how they just couldn't get enough of these cookies, and how the recipe was lost for 90 years until recently their great great uncle Lou found a copy of the recipe in an old donut.
Google has all of the tools to solve recipes. Make Google Recipe with a standard template and a way to link in and out of YouTube. People who contribute popular recipes get ad revenue. People with recipes and YT videos get even more. Adding ways to find similar recipes would be a killer feature. Who hasn't found a recipe that was almost what they were looking for, but was missing that je ne sais quoi.
Recipe sites are notorious for SEO tactics. They all follow the same highly optimized format with the stupid story about the author's grandma and how they just couldn't get enough of these cookies, and how the recipe was lost for 90 years until recently their great great uncle Lou found a copy of the recipe in an old donut.
Google has all of the tools to solve recipes. Make Google Recipe with a standard template and a way to link in and out of YouTube. People who contribute popular recipes get ad revenue. People with recipes and YT videos get even more. Adding ways to find similar recipes would be a killer feature. Who hasn't found a recipe that was almost what they were looking for, but was missing that je ne sais quoi.
The stories also serve the purpose of providing copyright. A recipe alone doesn't have copyright, but the story mixed throughout the recipe does have copyright.
Nah, the stories are there so you have to scroll 6000 pages to finally find the actual recipe. Why do they want you to scroll? Because every 5th word is an advertisement. More scrolling, more ads, more revenue.
All of these recipe sites (that I've seen) will drop the ingredients + directions on the bottom of the page.
All of these recipe sites (that I've seen) will drop the ingredients + directions on the bottom of the page.
No, it's so the pages follow thr Google blessed "ideal" page format. X number of words, 2-3 pictures, iser stays on page for longer than Y time.
Last one is the killer, a site that quickly gives you the info you are looking (or quickly shows you it doesn't have the info) for is punished by google search ranking.
Last one is the killer, a site that quickly gives you the info you are looking (or quickly shows you it doesn't have the info) for is punished by google search ranking.
I thought it was so the site has longer to mine monero using your CPU while you scroll?
Ever notice how incredibly slow any device gets when looking at recipes?
It's possible that the scrolling is giving the remote server time to use your CPU/GPU to mine some space cash, but it's also possible that attaching listeners to events that happen many times per second (such as scrolling, mouse movement) is common, especially if 3rd party ads are allowed to interact with the page, making it nearly impossible to know what those ads' scripts are doing.
Isn't that similar to what they tried for things like shopping for example, and they got sued for? The problem is that if they become an aggregator for a specific type of content, like let's say travel or lyrics, then other aggregator websites start suing.
Oh, I was not suggesting they be an aggregator. They should get people to produce original content and pay them per view like YouTube.
Shout out to https://onlyrecipe.app which allows you to extract just the recipe from SEO-corrupted ad-riddled websites.
"Recipe sites are notorious for SEO tactics. They all follow the same highly optimized format with the stupid story about the author's grandma and how they just couldn't get enough of these cookies, and how the recipe was lost for 90 years until recently their great great uncle Lou found a copy of the recipe in an old donut."
I LOL'ed. Thank you for that.
I LOL'ed. Thank you for that.
You don't even have to blacklist... just look at user behaviour. Did the user come back to google and select the next result after two seconds on that site? Did many users do that? Something has to be wrong with that site, rank it down.
I'm pretty sure i'm not the only one who clicks on pinterest results in eg. image search, and immediately click back to find another image somewhere else.
I'm pretty sure i'm not the only one who clicks on pinterest results in eg. image search, and immediately click back to find another image somewhere else.
> Did the user come back to google and select the next result after two seconds on that site?
It usually takes me at least a minute to recognize a search-optimized text if it's a topic I am unfamiliar with. Let's say I am googling something about windproofing underfloor insulation. The article starts with some basics about underfloor insulation in general, so I skim through the introduction, start hunting for the part of the article where it actually starts talking about windproofing and realize it's been cobbled together out of six random introductions or generated by GPT-3.
It usually takes me at least a minute to recognize a search-optimized text if it's a topic I am unfamiliar with. Let's say I am googling something about windproofing underfloor insulation. The article starts with some basics about underfloor insulation in general, so I skim through the introduction, start hunting for the part of the article where it actually starts talking about windproofing and realize it's been cobbled together out of six random introductions or generated by GPT-3.
No, that SEO shit works. The whole adbased internet is optimized to waste your time.
Did I spend a minute or two trying to read a 1000 word article, because I was looking for how many pixels there is in a 4k monitor? Or did I spend 2 seconds visiting a chart?
Did I spend a minute or two trying to read a 1000 word article, because I was looking for how many pixels there is in a 4k monitor? Or did I spend 2 seconds visiting a chart?
It has been a constant battle of SEO improving and Google improving the page ranking algorithm. For a long time Google was winning that battle, but more recently they haven't seen as interested. The economic argument you're making may be the reason, but it's short termist if people slowly get driven away from Google by poor quality search results.
Five to ten years ago no other engine was close - the fact that duckduckgo was even try was comical. Google had an effectively monopoly. That might not be true at all five to ten years from now if the trend continues.
Five to ten years ago no other engine was close - the fact that duckduckgo was even try was comical. Google had an effectively monopoly. That might not be true at all five to ten years from now if the trend continues.
those sites would just clone themselves with a different domain
For Python programming I would say 100% of the time you should look the answer up in the official manual for a well-defined problem (delete a file) because the manual is correct, well-written, etc. It's astonishing how often Google and Bing snatch defeat from the jaws of victory on queries like this.
If you go looking in splogs, spam overflow and other spam sites at best you are going to get wrong answers, at worse you will get answers that "aren't even wrong".
If you go looking in splogs, spam overflow and other spam sites at best you are going to get wrong answers, at worse you will get answers that "aren't even wrong".
Searching for "Delete a file" in the python manual, will take you to a page about the configuration parser.
https://docs.python.org/3/search.html?q=delete+a+file&check_...
Top result: https://docs.python.org/3/library/configparser.html?highligh...
Top 4 result is "Miscellaneous operating system interfaces", which does hold the answer, but it is not obvious, and browsing through that page is quite a chore before you finally get to `os.remove`, which says that it deletes "a path", which even I, a seasoned developer need to look twice to make sure that path removing a path and a file is the same thing. https://docs.python.org/3/library/os.html?highlight=delete%2...
https://docs.python.org/3/search.html?q=delete+a+file&check_...
Top result: https://docs.python.org/3/library/configparser.html?highligh...
Top 4 result is "Miscellaneous operating system interfaces", which does hold the answer, but it is not obvious, and browsing through that page is quite a chore before you finally get to `os.remove`, which says that it deletes "a path", which even I, a seasoned developer need to look twice to make sure that path removing a path and a file is the same thing. https://docs.python.org/3/library/os.html?highlight=delete%2...
To be fair I have read the Python manual over and over again, I can usually find things by clicking on the appropriate section.
I get so annoyed that geeks for geeks is the default thing for so many things I search for in python. Really, it would be far more useful to just bring up the python docs most of the time.
>because the manual is correct, well-written, etc.
It's also verbose and requires effort and working memory to parse, when I could get a trivial one line answer or code snippet from a stackoverflow post specific to my question. Yes, in an ideal world we would all read the manual, but unfortunately manuals are inconvenient. And in my experience the vast majority of stackoverflow answers are correct.
It's also verbose and requires effort and working memory to parse, when I could get a trivial one line answer or code snippet from a stackoverflow post specific to my question. Yes, in an ideal world we would all read the manual, but unfortunately manuals are inconvenient. And in my experience the vast majority of stackoverflow answers are correct.
I think it takes a lot of effort and working memory to ignore the ads and correct the mistakes on sites like spam overflow, spam3school, etc.
If it was was Clojure or some other language that has an awful online manual it is one thing but the Python manual is good.
If it was was Clojure or some other language that has an awful online manual it is one thing but the Python manual is good.
Spam overflow? Is that stack overflow?
And... I'm guessing w3school?
And... I'm guessing w3school?
I haven't coded python in a while, but does the python manual follow the man pages style of listing every possible parameter including the weird deprecated options that haven't been used since 1998 before actually providing information and examples of typical usage and instructions on how to handle the common use-cases?
Because that's the software equivalent to recipe spam.
Because that's the software equivalent to recipe spam.
I agree yet in the article google is criticised for having the official docs as search result 1.
I guess I just want different results to the same query than the author
I guess I just want different results to the same query than the author
Of the three code related searches in the original blog post, only one Google example listed the official Python documentation as the first link. In the other two examples, the sites shown where:
- W3 Schools
- StackOverflow
I will definitely agree with you that the author seems to want very different things from their search results than we might though. I will always always prefer the official docs (which I can pick through) when I make as vague a search as "<language> throw exception". If I wanted to know "how do I <verb> <noun> in <language>", then that's what I'd Google.
- W3 Schools
- StackOverflow
I will definitely agree with you that the author seems to want very different things from their search results than we might though. I will always always prefer the official docs (which I can pick through) when I make as vague a search as "<language> throw exception". If I wanted to know "how do I <verb> <noun> in <language>", then that's what I'd Google.
I wish the python manual was the default search for function references too...
Realpython is a third party site that I'll admit is acceptable for these results.
Mostly yes, you just search efficient documentation.
Mostly yes, you just search efficient documentation.
I am sure it’s plenty more than these three.
Yesterday, I searched "best after-sale service of AC". What I was shown was SEO'd pure junk. Absolute junk as the first result.
Next few were the same, but more focused on affiliate programs rather than providing genuine info.
Down the line was Quora, where _sales rep of AC companies_ wrote answers that _theirs_ had the best service.
I wad very disappointed.
You.com showed me better result right away.
My Kagi and You use is now on par with my Google use. They mights surpass Google soon.
I still find Google to be the best for programming answers btw.
I would also say that Google's ad business is in direct conflict of interest with its search business.
Yesterday, I searched "best after-sale service of AC". What I was shown was SEO'd pure junk. Absolute junk as the first result.
Next few were the same, but more focused on affiliate programs rather than providing genuine info.
Down the line was Quora, where _sales rep of AC companies_ wrote answers that _theirs_ had the best service.
I wad very disappointed.
You.com showed me better result right away.
My Kagi and You use is now on par with my Google use. They mights surpass Google soon.
I still find Google to be the best for programming answers btw.
I would also say that Google's ad business is in direct conflict of interest with its search business.
Am I the only ones who has a really hard time with Quora. I can never tell which answer is real or fake. And even the "real" ones rarely ever answer the question. Quora is basically the Pinterest of answer results.
I never find google to be good for programming queries. I use you.com for all programming queries, and recently learned to use their Coding Complete app, it's actually great. This article doesn't do it a proper justice
I much prefer Kagi to Google (and DuckDuckGo et al). Often the first page of Google consists solely of SEO rubbish. Being able to block and rank domains is also useful.
For straightforward answers and navigating to websites, I often use what is the default in browser that I happen to use at that time.
I use DDG, FF, and Bromite on my smartphone. Sometimes Brave, too. I have Brave as my secondary browser (FF as the main, LibreWolf for personal stuff) on my daily driver as well.
I used Brave Search and DDG a lot. Nothing can go wrong with them if all I am asking is the capital of Belgium or trying to navigate to a subreddit.
With special, not so straightforward searches, I rely on You and Kagi.
I really appreciate You's different kinds of search results and grouping them. They are clear that they use some kind of AI model to tailor search results, and I have an account there.
I really like Kagi for showing me sites that I wasn’t even aware of. I can boost or shove down sites. I turned off Quora and Pinterest right away. No extensions, no scripts. Love that.
As I said, Google’s adbiz is in direct conflict with its Search division. Search should show the best result for the Searcher. Ad div would want the pages to be shown that are crawling, infesting with Google Adsense ad. When more of these pages are visited, they have better metrics to lure more people to Adsense thus making $$$.
This is clear conflict of interest.
I use DDG, FF, and Bromite on my smartphone. Sometimes Brave, too. I have Brave as my secondary browser (FF as the main, LibreWolf for personal stuff) on my daily driver as well.
I used Brave Search and DDG a lot. Nothing can go wrong with them if all I am asking is the capital of Belgium or trying to navigate to a subreddit.
With special, not so straightforward searches, I rely on You and Kagi.
I really appreciate You's different kinds of search results and grouping them. They are clear that they use some kind of AI model to tailor search results, and I have an account there.
I really like Kagi for showing me sites that I wasn’t even aware of. I can boost or shove down sites. I turned off Quora and Pinterest right away. No extensions, no scripts. Love that.
As I said, Google’s adbiz is in direct conflict with its Search division. Search should show the best result for the Searcher. Ad div would want the pages to be shown that are crawling, infesting with Google Adsense ad. When more of these pages are visited, they have better metrics to lure more people to Adsense thus making $$$.
This is clear conflict of interest.
you.com, the search engine you control, huh?
http://shitmyself.com/thumb/thumb_800_5e84542c26a8815f33d767...
http://shitmyself.com/thumb/thumb_800_5e84542c26a8815f33d767...
Google is not great for code search, but I dislike this "rich snippet" thing.
These engines are stealing the sites traffic. The whole point was to be a search engine, not an encyclopedia. If you want to be the latter, produce your own content.
It's my opinion. I don't use those engines because of that. They jeopardize their sources. It's unsustainable.
These engines are stealing the sites traffic. The whole point was to be a search engine, not an encyclopedia. If you want to be the latter, produce your own content.
It's my opinion. I don't use those engines because of that. They jeopardize their sources. It's unsustainable.
Yeah I think coders should give up on search engines to meet their needs and instead rely on coder-specific search engines like
- https://searchcode.com/
- http://symbolhound.com/
- https://publicwww.com/
etc
- https://searchcode.com/
- http://symbolhound.com/
- https://publicwww.com/
etc
IMHO, the options you listed still miss the point.
When I do a code-related search, most often I'm looking for a documentation entry.
So, for example, if I search for "python string replace", Google returns me a bunch of crappy pages.
I can fix it with "site:python.org string replace".
SearchCode does a terrible job [1]. So does Public WWW [2].
Now, Google nails with the first result, pointing to Python's built-in types page. But it would be perfect if it could just add a #str.replace fragment to the URL [3] and save me some scrolling. Instead, it sends me to the top of the page...
[1] https://searchcode.com/?q=python+string+replace
[2] https://publicwww.com/websites/python+string+replace/
[3] https://docs.python.org/3/library/stdtypes.html#str.replace
When I do a code-related search, most often I'm looking for a documentation entry.
So, for example, if I search for "python string replace", Google returns me a bunch of crappy pages.
I can fix it with "site:python.org string replace".
SearchCode does a terrible job [1]. So does Public WWW [2].
Now, Google nails with the first result, pointing to Python's built-in types page. But it would be perfect if it could just add a #str.replace fragment to the URL [3] and save me some scrolling. Instead, it sends me to the top of the page...
[1] https://searchcode.com/?q=python+string+replace
[2] https://publicwww.com/websites/python+string+replace/
[3] https://docs.python.org/3/library/stdtypes.html#str.replace
symbol hound looks dead
searchcode seems to not let you say things like "in the main api", or in libraries, it's all usages, it's also actually the code itself. so "boto3 list_buckets" a common query I do (that google actually does well).
publicwww seems to be searching google?
searchcode seems to not let you say things like "in the main api", or in libraries, it's all usages, it's also actually the code itself. so "boto3 list_buckets" a common query I do (that google actually does well).
publicwww seems to be searching google?
Question regarding the recipe example. Does Google deduct quality points the more ads that are put on the website? A long time ago, I recall hearing how Google was able to beat Yahoo by focusing on quality of ads & a higher click rate. Has Google defeated it's rivals & switched to their tactics?
Side note, I prefer DDG as my search but only because of the bang operators. For recipes !b added to the search lets me use Bing. As the article points out, Bing is really awesome for searching for recipes.
Looks like I need to start trying out Neeva & You.com. They had some nice features in this article.
Neeva seems to be stealing all the important content from the recipe website which is a highly discussed issue. Bing tries to walk this line by making you still go to the website to read the instructions. Obviously people have trashed Google for doing this same thing on other kinds of websites. Though blogger recipe websites have somewhat encouraged this behavior due to their insane amount of ads & life stories they're well known for.
Side note, I prefer DDG as my search but only because of the bang operators. For recipes !b added to the search lets me use Bing. As the article points out, Bing is really awesome for searching for recipes.
Looks like I need to start trying out Neeva & You.com. They had some nice features in this article.
Neeva seems to be stealing all the important content from the recipe website which is a highly discussed issue. Bing tries to walk this line by making you still go to the website to read the instructions. Obviously people have trashed Google for doing this same thing on other kinds of websites. Though blogger recipe websites have somewhat encouraged this behavior due to their insane amount of ads & life stories they're well known for.
A very high percentage of ads on sites now use the Google ad network. So it may actually be in their interest to promote sites with more ads. They certainly promote a lot of garbage new sites on their Google news feed app and the product that they include on the pixel phones.
they also store all your info
https://old.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/qqpggk/new_youcom_pr...
https://old.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/qqpggk/new_youcom_pr...
Go look at the horrible chumbox infested AMP sites that Google promotes on Google Assistant. You can tell where their priorities lie.
you.com has all the bangs that DDG has too now.
One Google feature that I miss terribly is hard filtering.
Used to be if you included "term" or -"term" you'd only get results that did/n't include those terms. But it seems Google has gone all in on the "I don't think you really meant that" approach [], and the hard filters have become suggestions at best.
--
[] Ok, I know it's probably because they're switching more and more to semantic search and ML, but they could retain the hard filters on top.
Used to be if you included "term" or -"term" you'd only get results that did/n't include those terms. But it seems Google has gone all in on the "I don't think you really meant that" approach [], and the hard filters have become suggestions at best.
--
[] Ok, I know it's probably because they're switching more and more to semantic search and ML, but they could retain the hard filters on top.
Similar to the date filtering, you used to be able to see results between two dates, this doesn't seem to work at all anymore.
As an example, if I search for 'gilbert gottfried' and set the date filter 1 apr -> 3 apr, I still see stories about his death.
As an example, if I search for 'gilbert gottfried' and set the date filter 1 apr -> 3 apr, I still see stories about his death.
[deleted]
Do you have any examples of searches that don't respect hard filters? The only time I've seen it ignoring quotes is when there are 0 results and it puts up a little notice at the top "No results found for "…". Results for … (without quotes):"
>[] Ok, I know it's probably because they're switching more and more to semantic search and ML, but they could retain the hard filters on top
The issue is that "power users" that are even aware of quotes and and hard filtering are now the long tail that google is no longer optimizing for. They'd much rather focus on the 99% of searches by, for lack of a better term, normies, and as a consequence, rather than expecting users to learn to think, their search features and performance are regressing toward a totally dumbed down mean. And I think society is worse for it.
The issue is that "power users" that are even aware of quotes and and hard filtering are now the long tail that google is no longer optimizing for. They'd much rather focus on the 99% of searches by, for lack of a better term, normies, and as a consequence, rather than expecting users to learn to think, their search features and performance are regressing toward a totally dumbed down mean. And I think society is worse for it.
Next time that happens, open up the page source and search again, and you will likely find the term amongst a huge huge list of SEO terms.
It's extremely frustrating how much "content" is displayed on the page versus how much is hidden in the page source.
It's extremely frustrating how much "content" is displayed on the page versus how much is hidden in the page source.
100% agree. This used to be my secret weapon for finding things. -"term" along with "other terms you were looking for".
Still broken after 7 months.
"When did Neil Armstrong set foot on Mars?"
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28224730
"When did Neil Armstrong set foot on Mars?"
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28224730
"Broken" is a stretch. It gives the only result that could be reasonably expected by anyone making that query in good faith. If you're genuinely expecting a result like "never," then I wonder, would you also expect a result of "never" for the query "When did Neal Armstrong set foot on the Moon?" (notice the misspelling of his name)
For instance I saw that many Russian generals had been killed during the war. I wondered how many Ukrainian generals had been killed over the same period.
Still can't figure it out. Lots and lots of articles about dead Russian generals.
There's got to be some way where the search engine doesn't second guess you. You can never find the answer to something adjacent to a popular question with the current state of things.
Still can't figure it out. Lots and lots of articles about dead Russian generals.
There's got to be some way where the search engine doesn't second guess you. You can never find the answer to something adjacent to a popular question with the current state of things.
Ukraine has repeatedly asserted that the HQs of all their major units are intact and as far as I know there have been no announcements of any Ukrainian generals killed and as far as I see even Russian media have not contested that. With some searching on the Russian internet, I find some assertions in Russian social media from early March that Lt Gen Юрій Содоль commanding the Ukraine Marines was killed, but not anything conclusive. So the number seems to be 0, or perhaps 1. And IMHO that isn't surprising, it's quite normal to fight major wars without many generals KIA, it is very surprising that Russia lost so many of them.
Even on colonel level the losses seem to be small - I think that this https://www.republicworld.com/world-news/russia-ukraine-cris... this was the first Ukrainian ground force colonel KIA that I recall, there was at least one air force colonel before that.
Even on colonel level the losses seem to be small - I think that this https://www.republicworld.com/world-news/russia-ukraine-cris... this was the first Ukrainian ground force colonel KIA that I recall, there was at least one air force colonel before that.
Ukraine has better signals security so we don’t know.
The other thing is that Russia is operating WW2 style. It’s a top down system where the lower level people have no autonomy. American colonels and generals die in helicopter shoot downs and accidents. Russian generals get assassinated on the front screaming at soldiers to move trucks, etc.
The other thing is that Russia is operating WW2 style. It’s a top down system where the lower level people have no autonomy. American colonels and generals die in helicopter shoot downs and accidents. Russian generals get assassinated on the front screaming at soldiers to move trucks, etc.
From google's point of view, it's not second guessing you. It just associates words it decides are similar. You'd probably accept results for "dead generals", "killed generals", or "killed commanders". To google, dead = killed, generals = commanders, Russian = Ukranian, and moon = mars. It will expand the meanings of words until it has a page full of results and ads to show you.
I'd consider it broken. In many other cases, if I make a typo in my search, Google will (rather prominently, IMO) at the top of the search display something like:
> Showing results for "When did Neil Armstrong set foot on the Moon?"
> Show instead for "When did Neil Armwrong set foot on the Moon?"
However, it seems to only work for actual spelling errors (e.g. if I typed Armstrong incorrectly) vs. context errors.
So to answer your question, I'd expect Google calling out its interpretation, but not necessarily a "never".
> Showing results for "When did Neil Armstrong set foot on the Moon?"
> Show instead for "When did Neil Armwrong set foot on the Moon?"
However, it seems to only work for actual spelling errors (e.g. if I typed Armstrong incorrectly) vs. context errors.
So to answer your question, I'd expect Google calling out its interpretation, but not necessarily a "never".
What is “good faith” in that case though ? Some people will really not know (think kids for instance, but not only)
The interesting part to me is that Google will show redirected queries from typos (“Did you mean “When did *Neil* Armstrong set foot on Mars” ?”) but not disclose the term it completely ignored.
I makes it look like it parsed and validated all the search terms before coming up with the prominently displayed date, which makes it worse.
On your point, it’s broken because it shouldn’t display “Never”, and instead skip the date widget and show that the page results are for the moon, like it does for typos and other kind of corrected search terms.
Or alternatively _always_ show which part of the query the results are based on. Failure to be transparent creates the problem.
The interesting part to me is that Google will show redirected queries from typos (“Did you mean “When did *Neil* Armstrong set foot on Mars” ?”) but not disclose the term it completely ignored.
I makes it look like it parsed and validated all the search terms before coming up with the prominently displayed date, which makes it worse.
On your point, it’s broken because it shouldn’t display “Never”, and instead skip the date widget and show that the page results are for the moon, like it does for typos and other kind of corrected search terms.
Or alternatively _always_ show which part of the query the results are based on. Failure to be transparent creates the problem.
> Some people will really not know (think kids for instance, but not only)
It seems very improbable that a kid would ask that question without having any preconceived notion whatsoever of a person with that name famously stepping foot on an extraterrestrial body. It's overwhelmingly likely that they have the famous 1969 event in mind, and that's why Google's response is appropriate.
Of course I'm not disputing that it wouldn't be even better for the Google response to explicitly correct the mistake in the query. I'm only disputing the fact that it's "broken." If you were asking this question of a human as some sort of test (but the human didn't know they were being tested), it would clearly be a "gotcha," and you could likely "fool" highly educated people who know full well that it was the Moon and not Mars.
It seems very improbable that a kid would ask that question without having any preconceived notion whatsoever of a person with that name famously stepping foot on an extraterrestrial body. It's overwhelmingly likely that they have the famous 1969 event in mind, and that's why Google's response is appropriate.
Of course I'm not disputing that it wouldn't be even better for the Google response to explicitly correct the mistake in the query. I'm only disputing the fact that it's "broken." If you were asking this question of a human as some sort of test (but the human didn't know they were being tested), it would clearly be a "gotcha," and you could likely "fool" highly educated people who know full well that it was the Moon and not Mars.
> It seems very improbable
This is I think the critical point.
It’s one of the core assumption that is correct for us to have in our day to day interactions with other real people, and we also are able to adjust the probability levels looking at the person or the context, and follow up depending on the reaction to our answer.
None of that applies to Google Search [0], and we are fed with “most probable” results without qualifiers, little to no sensible adjustments, and very little control or opt out options.
Billions of people use Search every day, at these scales what is “improbable” actually happens millions of times, and I feel too many people are willing to throw the odd ones out under the bus, even if the current situation isn’t perfect either for the 90 part of the 10/90 split.
[0] search personalization based on logged in profile could be used, but in practice they only apply that to very crude adjustments like country, language and frequent searches.
This is I think the critical point.
It’s one of the core assumption that is correct for us to have in our day to day interactions with other real people, and we also are able to adjust the probability levels looking at the person or the context, and follow up depending on the reaction to our answer.
None of that applies to Google Search [0], and we are fed with “most probable” results without qualifiers, little to no sensible adjustments, and very little control or opt out options.
Billions of people use Search every day, at these scales what is “improbable” actually happens millions of times, and I feel too many people are willing to throw the odd ones out under the bus, even if the current situation isn’t perfect either for the 90 part of the 10/90 split.
[0] search personalization based on logged in profile could be used, but in practice they only apply that to very crude adjustments like country, language and frequent searches.
There is something to be said about how failure cases are handled even for systems that are almost always (say, 99.9%) successful. This is particularly true for systems where failure cases cause harm to people. A common example might be assumptions about people's names that are implemented in some form on a government website. Perhaps it is the case that 99.9% of people in this jurisdiction do have a first name and a last name each of which are representable in Unicode with a character count less than 50. But that's still 0.1% of people who now can't get a driver's license, and that's unacceptable.
However, in this particular case, I think the very low probability of someone genuinely asking when Neil Armstrong set foot on Mars, combined with the very low probability of any measurable harm being done to those people by Google's response, makes me conclude that this is reasonable expected behavior and not something I would call "broken."
However, in this particular case, I think the very low probability of someone genuinely asking when Neil Armstrong set foot on Mars, combined with the very low probability of any measurable harm being done to those people by Google's response, makes me conclude that this is reasonable expected behavior and not something I would call "broken."
You are bringing a very good point.
On the Google side, I think it’s an issue that has more consequences than just the moon landing.
For instance, for me “When is the francis election” (where I would have men “french or france instead of francis”) gives me a big and bold “Mar 13” with smaller below “Anniversary of the election of Pope Francis Observances” and an long anniversary Year/Week/Date table taking 80% of the widget display.
And as with the other examples, there is nothing showing the word approximations that has happened regarding to the original query.
There must thousands of other instances where a search result will come up with a big widget, an answer in big and bold font, except it will be completely wrong and have a direct impact on the user missing a deadline or taking the wrong action.
Of course users are supposed to know better and check the full result, but as you point out, if it’s almost always what they expected, they’ll learn to rely on it and be more complacent.
On the Google side, I think it’s an issue that has more consequences than just the moon landing.
For instance, for me “When is the francis election” (where I would have men “french or france instead of francis”) gives me a big and bold “Mar 13” with smaller below “Anniversary of the election of Pope Francis Observances” and an long anniversary Year/Week/Date table taking 80% of the widget display.
And as with the other examples, there is nothing showing the word approximations that has happened regarding to the original query.
There must thousands of other instances where a search result will come up with a big widget, an answer in big and bold font, except it will be completely wrong and have a direct impact on the user missing a deadline or taking the wrong action.
Of course users are supposed to know better and check the full result, but as you point out, if it’s almost always what they expected, they’ll learn to rely on it and be more complacent.
The answer Google gives to the question is wrong. End of story. Google aims to be a question-answering machine with the Info box, so giving the wrong answer is a broken state. Not sure you can really reason you way into how it's kinda-understandable-and-gotcha! to be 'not broken'.
Aside: Going to get real confusing when another Neil Armstrong born in the 2010s does set foot on Mars in the 2030s. I wonder if we will still get the first response from Google, 1969, and if you will still consider it to be 'not broken' then too.
Aside: Going to get real confusing when another Neil Armstrong born in the 2010s does set foot on Mars in the 2030s. I wonder if we will still get the first response from Google, 1969, and if you will still consider it to be 'not broken' then too.
How is this different from answering the query "2+22=?" with "4"? There's a factual question that was asked and the answer provided is objectively wrong. Whether the user meant to ask a different question is irrelevant. Either say "2+2=4" or say "24", but under no circumstances say "4" without noting that you've answered a different question than what was asked
It's different because nobody is actually going to ask this silly question in good faith. It does not matter in the slightest bit to anyone whether Google can produce a correct answer to nonsense questions that nobody is ever going to actually ask with the intention of getting a correct answer. Google also can't produce correct answers to queries written in ancient undeciphered languages. Oh well.
It also seems rather unlikely that someone would search for "2+22", but not obviously any more or less unlikely than "2+2", and building a calculator into your search engine is trivially easy compared to handling natural language queries, so it's not a useful comparison.
> Whether the user meant to ask a different question is irrelevant.
Of course it's relevant. If Google can correctly determine what question the user meant to ask, then obviously Google should provide an answer that provides value to the user instead of trolling the user with nitpicking about spelling or what have you. If you ask Google for the "capitol of India" you'll get New Delhi, even though that is the "capital" of India, and arguably the "capitol" of India is actually the Chandigarh Capitol Complex, so the result is "objectively wrong".
It also seems rather unlikely that someone would search for "2+22", but not obviously any more or less unlikely than "2+2", and building a calculator into your search engine is trivially easy compared to handling natural language queries, so it's not a useful comparison.
> Whether the user meant to ask a different question is irrelevant.
Of course it's relevant. If Google can correctly determine what question the user meant to ask, then obviously Google should provide an answer that provides value to the user instead of trolling the user with nitpicking about spelling or what have you. If you ask Google for the "capitol of India" you'll get New Delhi, even though that is the "capital" of India, and arguably the "capitol" of India is actually the Chandigarh Capitol Complex, so the result is "objectively wrong".
Google can interpret the intended meaning of arithmetic expressions like that with even higher confidence than this Neil Armstrong query. But the confidence with which Google can interpret the intended meaning of this Neil Armstrong query is well above any reasonable threshold one might propose.
I would argue that it's roughly just as clear that the query intends to refer to the Moon as it is that the query intends to refer to the Canadian Neil Armstrong who was killed in a plane crash in the Antarctic in 1994.
I would argue that it's roughly just as clear that the query intends to refer to the Moon as it is that the query intends to refer to the Canadian Neil Armstrong who was killed in a plane crash in the Antarctic in 1994.
At the very least I would expect a "Did you mean..." message at the top. In fact, it correctly does this for the "Neal" query. The lack of one indicates a failure on google's part to understand the answer it gives.
Yes, people probably don't make this exact query in good faith very often, but it raises significant concerns for other queries where google tries to supply an answer.
See for example: https://gizmodo.com/googles-algorithm-is-lying-to-you-about-...
Yes, people probably don't make this exact query in good faith very often, but it raises significant concerns for other queries where google tries to supply an answer.
See for example: https://gizmodo.com/googles-algorithm-is-lying-to-you-about-...
But "Mars" is not simply a misspelling of the correct object, it confuses two distinct objects. A better comparison would be "When did Louis Armstrong set foot on the Moon?"
Amusingly, "what date did Louis Armstrong land on the Moon" displays the same behavior of showing the date "July 20, 1969" and no indication that it answered a different question than the one you asked.
Indeed, it's a confusion between two distinct objects, and the intended object is overwhelmingly clear, which is why it's appropriate to correct the confusion and give the intended response.
It's correct for me. What are you getting?
Edit, yes I'm wrong, did a mental s/mars/moon/ without noticing.
Edit, yes I'm wrong, did a mental s/mars/moon/ without noticing.
The date when he landed on the moon. For mars, the correct answer is "never".
Ah, I totally misread that. Hilarious. Brain auto-correct strikes again.
I suspect this happened to a lot of people. I read it like “is the name misspelled?”
Google search doesn’t know the correct answer, but it does know what people usually search for and returns an answer to that. It’s silently adjusting Mars to Moon before returning an answer.
I get July 20, 1969. Based on the results that follow, I assume that is correct.
It is not. There was no human on Mars (yet) and that's the point of the question, proving that google's ML approach will recorrect and reinterpret the question and give a wrong answer.
Although it's interesting to note that two presumably human commenters in this thread got that wrong. Maybe the Google results are more human than we would have guessed.
it's more showing that the search engine isn't much better than bag-of-words model, and doesn't seem to "know" enough logic/reasoning to parse a sentence and determine that it's false because it says mars instead of the moon.
BTW, a big reason for this is the search quality folks at Google left the building and got replaced with growth marketers.
BTW, a big reason for this is the search quality folks at Google left the building and got replaced with growth marketers.
This narrative doesn't really ring true to me. In any case, if you're saying that this result indicates that the system is no better than a bag of words model, doesn't that indicate that humans are equally no better, considering the errors made by the two commenters in this thread?
To me it just seems like a query that is likely to trip any imperfect entity up, since a "when" question usually implies that the event in question is known to have happened.
To me it just seems like a query that is likely to trip any imperfect entity up, since a "when" question usually implies that the event in question is known to have happened.
[deleted]
>BTW, a big reason for this is the search quality folks at Google left the building and got replaced with growth marketers.
Is this the transition they made to AI powered rankings a couple of years ago?
Is this the transition they made to AI powered rankings a couple of years ago?
I love that Google shills will defend that Instant Answers is a good idea. Its just a disinformation weapon to bad guys.
> Is this page any better than what you’d have gotten in 2010? What if it looked like this instead?
I can't take seriously an example that still puts w3schools as the first search result. If I were searching for a simple answer about a language feature, I would want the search engine to give me a page from the definitive authoritative source on that language. w3schools isn't that.
I can't take seriously an example that still puts w3schools as the first search result. If I were searching for a simple answer about a language feature, I would want the search engine to give me a page from the definitive authoritative source on that language. w3schools isn't that.
Web dev is my bread and butter for many years, and for realistic simple and functional samples (which work beyond the latest builds, since I try to accomodate all 100% of my visitors) no one even comes close to w3schools.
I wish them many years of success and prosperity.
I wish them many years of success and prosperity.
Quotes around words have basically stopped working on Google. Which makes all three of those searches even more difficult.
And google hasn't handled complex queries for quite a while. A long time ago, you could get sensible answers to boolean queries - not so much now. A useful search engine would understand meaning, rather than just an index lookup.
I would say that I have the exact opposite experience.
My company is moving from IE to Edge as the default browser and I search for code issues on Edge (Bing). I usually do not like the results and then have to manually type in Google.com > search for code issues as that gives me better results.
you should be able set the default search engine...
I like Edge, but the setting for the search engine is quite difficult to find despite being (I assume) one of the most common settings to change. You have to click on "Privacy, search, and services", then go the "Services" heading and click on the tiny "Address bar and search" box, and then you finally come to the page where it will let you change the default browser. Said "Address bar and search" box is also the very last item on the "Privacy, search, and services" page with no highlighting or emphasis whatsoever.
Meanwhile for Firefox, I just have to go to "Search" and the setting for default search engine is immediately obvious. Chrome seems to have a similar layout as well despite being produced by a search engine company. Edge is my daily driver, but it still took me way longer to find the default search engine setting in Edge compared to Chrome and Firefox.
Also, I have to compliment Firefox for making it really easy to search with a non-default search engine. I generally use Google, but I use Bing when searching for internal work stuff since it is integrated with O365 and SharePoint.
Meanwhile for Firefox, I just have to go to "Search" and the setting for default search engine is immediately obvious. Chrome seems to have a similar layout as well despite being produced by a search engine company. Edge is my daily driver, but it still took me way longer to find the default search engine setting in Edge compared to Chrome and Firefox.
Also, I have to compliment Firefox for making it really easy to search with a non-default search engine. I generally use Google, but I use Bing when searching for internal work stuff since it is integrated with O365 and SharePoint.
> setting for the search engine is quite difficult to find
Didn't seem all that difficult to me.
I went to settings, put "search" in the search box. That highlighted in yellow "address bar and search" click "manage search engines" click, 3 dots next to google, click, make default, click. 4 clicks with guiding highlight throughout. Didn't even need to google how to google with edge.
I'm still using FF. However, switching search engines in Edge seems about the same difficulty as doing the same in FF or chrome.
Didn't seem all that difficult to me.
I went to settings, put "search" in the search box. That highlighted in yellow "address bar and search" click "manage search engines" click, 3 dots next to google, click, make default, click. 4 clicks with guiding highlight throughout. Didn't even need to google how to google with edge.
I'm still using FF. However, switching search engines in Edge seems about the same difficulty as doing the same in FF or chrome.
I run into this on DuckDuckGo. I can try a bunch of different searches in DDG and not find what I need, then on Google it is the first result.
Google lags behind in Image search quality too, surprisingly. Bing consistently does better for me at least.
Google also lags behind searching for torrent content, not surprisingly.
In fact, I'm going to say, I use Google knowing that it sucks in many areas, just because it's hassle to use multiple search engines, and the quality was acceptable enough that it got the job done.
But now, I do more searches in both Google and Duck.
Their Youtube search engine is starting to suck too, because it's deliberately mixing completely unrelated items in the result.
Google also lags behind searching for torrent content, not surprisingly.
In fact, I'm going to say, I use Google knowing that it sucks in many areas, just because it's hassle to use multiple search engines, and the quality was acceptable enough that it got the job done.
But now, I do more searches in both Google and Duck.
Their Youtube search engine is starting to suck too, because it's deliberately mixing completely unrelated items in the result.
I concur. Google Images suck. It's all littered with garbage sites that have their logo plastered all over the image.
I use Yandex for image search, much more variety in results and the interface is also quite good to quickly go through a lot of images at once.
I use Yandex for image search, much more variety in results and the interface is also quite good to quickly go through a lot of images at once.
Google sucks at image search but I just wanted to add, Bing either intentionally or unintentionally broke one of my porn searches. I'd search for "my-fetish-keyword-of-choice" and then pick to only show results for the last month. Since like January of February the results have been zero which I know, based on all the other places I look for content, is false. Content from sites that otherwise show up in Bing results. And no, I'm not looking for anything remotely illegal.
Just to clarify, when I say Image search, I meant, searching for like-images by uploading your own.
Intentionally. Both search engines now stop showing related keywords for anything adult-related.
Also noticed a recent change that Google did, if I search for e.g:- Volvo XC 60, it does not show me the Volvo XC 60 page on Volvo.com, it instead shows the ad that Volvo paid for and a bunch of other ads.
So they essentially don’t want you to click on the organic link that points to Volvo.com.
They want Volvo to know that all the traffic to them is being sent due to the Ad and not from any organic links.
This is what the not so evil company is doing, imagine if they are actually evil..
So they essentially don’t want you to click on the organic link that points to Volvo.com.
They want Volvo to know that all the traffic to them is being sent due to the Ad and not from any organic links.
This is what the not so evil company is doing, imagine if they are actually evil..
It is the first organic result after the ads. This has basically always been the case.
This is not a recent change but exactly how Google has worked since 1999.
Wouldn't this just be caused by Volvo committing ad spend on their own keyword?
I liken it to a defense strategy.
Imagine if they didn't, and a search for Volvo XC 60 showed an ad for a Subaru!
I liken it to a defense strategy.
Imagine if they didn't, and a search for Volvo XC 60 showed an ad for a Subaru!
If they didn’t pay, Google would be showing the competitor’s ad instead. Base camp has called it a shakedown.
https://twitter.com/jasonfried/status/1168986962704982016
https://twitter.com/jasonfried/status/1168986962704982016
If I search for "Volvo XC 60" then there is absolutely no doubt I want to see information about that vehicle. Any information about Subaru is just irrelevant noise.
Use an ad blocker and that will solve the problem
So you would rather like to see both ad + organic result at the same time?
It is especially frustrating to use when Google while coding. I've noticed an increase in SEO sites on Google that seem to just scrape Q&As from the internet and regurgitate them[0]. I've recently started trying other search engines like DuckDuckGo and You.com and thankfully haven't had any issues with these sorts of sites popping up as results. It makes debugging 10x faster not having to sift through so many fake answer sites.
[0] https://quick-adviser.com/how-do-i-use-google-calendar-in-dj...
[0] https://quick-adviser.com/how-do-i-use-google-calendar-in-dj...
Some of these are so bad it's hilarious. My favorite so far is https://quick-adviser.com/how-do-i-turn-my-android-into-a-be...
Wasn't there just an article about how horizontal services get eaten away by focused rivals once a market has been identified? [1] Like Indeed doing job search better than Craiglist.
I wonder if Google isn't ripe for that sort of competitor. I can think of a bunch of verticals that could easily get their own dedicated search site, including cooking. Bing and others are trying to beat Google in generic search, and it'll never happen because Google defines what that means, and it's a moving target.
I'm wondering why Google hasn't done this themselves? Whitelist a bunch of decent websites and give the search page a fun URL like "Cookle".
1. https://www.georgesequeira.com/writing/zapier-the-5b-unbundl...
I wonder if Google isn't ripe for that sort of competitor. I can think of a bunch of verticals that could easily get their own dedicated search site, including cooking. Bing and others are trying to beat Google in generic search, and it'll never happen because Google defines what that means, and it's a moving target.
I'm wondering why Google hasn't done this themselves? Whitelist a bunch of decent websites and give the search page a fun URL like "Cookle".
1. https://www.georgesequeira.com/writing/zapier-the-5b-unbundl...
that's pretty much our thesis at Breeze:
- for web search, we have a better date filter than most, e.g., https://breezethat.com/?q=tiger+woods+after%3A2022-04-12
- for anything else, we have topics, e.g., click recipe tab from any general search on home page, e.g., https://breezethat.com/?q=mango+avocado
- we just launched a job finder, 14M listings with 20M by end of quarter, launched early due to the fast fiasco, https://breezethat.com/x/job-search-beta
- tons of other topics, some listed on page atm under "drops" at top, more advanced such as jobs in the pipeline
- for web search, we have a better date filter than most, e.g., https://breezethat.com/?q=tiger+woods+after%3A2022-04-12
- for anything else, we have topics, e.g., click recipe tab from any general search on home page, e.g., https://breezethat.com/?q=mango+avocado
- we just launched a job finder, 14M listings with 20M by end of quarter, launched early due to the fast fiasco, https://breezethat.com/x/job-search-beta
- tons of other topics, some listed on page atm under "drops" at top, more advanced such as jobs in the pipeline
The different search topics are similar to what I was thinking but it's just a variation on Google's various tabs, like shopping.
What I'm thinking of is a dedicated search site focused on a single topic. Take Breeze's guitar tab search and make a Guitargle.com. Then it could be promoted, marketed, refined and advertised on all sorts of apps - probably even on Google itself if they weren't paying attention. All the guitar apps could have integrated Guitargle search. Then make another vertical for the bird watchers search. And another for scholarships. All with different graphic designs based on the target demographic, with a "Powered By Breeze" at the bottom of each site.
Just a thought.
What I'm thinking of is a dedicated search site focused on a single topic. Take Breeze's guitar tab search and make a Guitargle.com. Then it could be promoted, marketed, refined and advertised on all sorts of apps - probably even on Google itself if they weren't paying attention. All the guitar apps could have integrated Guitargle search. Then make another vertical for the bird watchers search. And another for scholarships. All with different graphic designs based on the target demographic, with a "Powered By Breeze" at the bottom of each site.
Just a thought.
interesting; we have one site like that to search VC blogs, https://askanything.vc/
so in that context, Breeze becomes a portfolio of vertical searches, not unlike say Meredith or Hearst as publishers, etc.?
so in that context, Breeze becomes a portfolio of vertical searches, not unlike say Meredith or Hearst as publishers, etc.?
Cool! That's the idea. When you guys make it big, remember to save a few shares for your ol' buddy Russ on HN. ;-)
:noted:
though prolly a few more shares if there's a fit on the team :) just starting to build our pipeline of potential candidates, DM is @DotDotJames on twitter :)
though prolly a few more shares if there's a fit on the team :) just starting to build our pipeline of potential candidates, DM is @DotDotJames on twitter :)
> I already know what an Exception is, so I don't want to scroll halfway down the page to find what I'm looking for.
I can’t relate to this. That example, of the first result being the canonical documentation on the subject, is a search engine working exactly the way I want.
I can’t relate to this. That example, of the first result being the canonical documentation on the subject, is a search engine working exactly the way I want.
I thought the same thing but in the past I've also found the official python documentation to be somewhat verbose. Maybe these days I'd appreciate it more.
I always found the MDN documentation striking a better balance of being in-depth but not an essay.
I always found the MDN documentation striking a better balance of being in-depth but not an essay.
A low-hanging improvement Google can do easily: a one-line warning that its smart results may be wrong, and caution people to check all result pages and domains.
Given the shortened attention spans, prevalence of fake news, and evidence that featured snippets are being misused by scammers, I think it's imperative Google condition its users not to blindly trust these top results. Instead, they're doing the opposite.
An anecdote: I recently saw a phrase new to me - "on the lamb". Googled "on the lamb meaning". Google's top answer was a confident claim that it's related to Quakers and their persecution in the 17th century.
But that answer was in fact a downvoted one on an English StackExchange page. The top consensus answer there was different.
A person with a short attention span or a tendency to be satisfied with factoids that match their beliefs is likely to simply accept Google's answers as correct and not dig deeper.
Such conditioning results in bigger social problems. In my country, a popular method of scamming people involves SEO-ing fake banking service numbers to the top of search results. When a person searches for "X bank customer service number", Google shows these fake numbers. People trust Google's answers, call those numbers, provide details like banking OTPs, and get scammed.
Google provides a 'Feedback' dialog for such results, but it's a corrective measure that relies on diligence of users and not a preventive measure.
Given the shortened attention spans, prevalence of fake news, and evidence that featured snippets are being misused by scammers, I think it's imperative Google condition its users not to blindly trust these top results. Instead, they're doing the opposite.
An anecdote: I recently saw a phrase new to me - "on the lamb". Googled "on the lamb meaning". Google's top answer was a confident claim that it's related to Quakers and their persecution in the 17th century.
But that answer was in fact a downvoted one on an English StackExchange page. The top consensus answer there was different.
A person with a short attention span or a tendency to be satisfied with factoids that match their beliefs is likely to simply accept Google's answers as correct and not dig deeper.
Such conditioning results in bigger social problems. In my country, a popular method of scamming people involves SEO-ing fake banking service numbers to the top of search results. When a person searches for "X bank customer service number", Google shows these fake numbers. People trust Google's answers, call those numbers, provide details like banking OTPs, and get scammed.
Google provides a 'Feedback' dialog for such results, but it's a corrective measure that relies on diligence of users and not a preventive measure.
When it comes to programming it is not really due to superior work by the competition, but by so many people gaming the Google PR flooding the front pages with content-farm level crap.
Generally for any search string producing 3-4 pages of spam, the competition would give a better results, without necessarily having any technological superiority. I cannot believe Google have not recognised this as a key risk.
I love You and have it in my bookmarks. It gets many things right and better the current monopolist.
From all of the discussion here, I think the most interesting thing is the seeming lack of attempts to try other browsers when clearly Google is doing poorly and creating frustration.
I mean in the general population I would not be surprised, but on this site the community is generally pretty tech aware to know of alternatives at least.
I mean in the general population I would not be surprised, but on this site the community is generally pretty tech aware to know of alternatives at least.
People love pain. And, being lazy.
search engines, not browsers...
I kinda hate searching for recipes. It's always the same 3-5 sites who optimized for seo and , no idea what words to use here, for non European influenced cooking the recipes that surface at the top are often by people that really have no clue what authentic is.
not a search example but it's like Jamie Oliver's fried rice
not a search example but it's like Jamie Oliver's fried rice
we added recipe search to Breeze last month -- search for recipe name, ingredients, etc., click recipe tab in results -- would be curious if same / better / worse, etc.
example -- mango avocado -> click recipe at https://breezethat.com/?q=mango+avocado
example -- mango avocado -> click recipe at https://breezethat.com/?q=mango+avocado
There was one which was no-bullshit and then a bunch of online people denounced it for removing all the story and context and stealing from PoC, etc.
Free content is free content, but when it comes to cooking sites, some of them are just flat out scammy SEO farms. Even big names like food network, a link to the recipe I want almost always simply goes to an index page without my recipe on it on the food network site.
The long tell me your life story format of just wrapping a recipe that's not original is also incredibly annoying, and sometimes I find I get tricked into just wading through ads for nothing of value. As I posted elsewhere here, I've become very loyal to a few high quality sites that I can count on. seriouseats.com is probably the only one I really like in web format, but honestly youtube is full of excellent 12-15 minute videos for just about any meal I can think of, and I tend to go there.
The long tell me your life story format of just wrapping a recipe that's not original is also incredibly annoying, and sometimes I find I get tricked into just wading through ads for nothing of value. As I posted elsewhere here, I've become very loyal to a few high quality sites that I can count on. seriouseats.com is probably the only one I really like in web format, but honestly youtube is full of excellent 12-15 minute videos for just about any meal I can think of, and I tend to go there.
BBC Good Food is worth proselytizing to. No spam, great recipes, and often easy/simple (depends on what you're going for, of course).
That was a weird example to me. Google, although it ends up returning seo spam like w3schools, usually surfaces good SO answers, which are imo (and I think generally recognized as) the best answers that also contain discussion and caveats, if warranted. It's considered bad practice already to just cut/paste the SO answer unthinkingly. The only thing worse would be to do the same thing with whatever this search engine dragged out of w3schools.
There are lots of criticisms of google search, but in this case, I think the Google result is better - anyone looking regularly for answers is conditioned to tune out the Geeksforgeeks and w3schools and other spam, so as long as good SO answers are from and center, I think google wins
There are lots of criticisms of google search, but in this case, I think the Google result is better - anyone looking regularly for answers is conditioned to tune out the Geeksforgeeks and w3schools and other spam, so as long as good SO answers are from and center, I think google wins
What's wrong with w3schools, never get the hate, it's an ok site, code on it seems fine.
It's a middle man is all imo. I have actually used it for css stuff, but for python (as a python programmer), I want SO or the actual documentation , so its annoying when what I consider ad-driven content gets in the way of my search.
I can tell you why I hate them... explanations are usually incomplete or wrong in some cases. Examples often use antiquated browser code when the answer should just be vanilla JS. They don't use best practices... like ever. They don't generally use modern code (don't use arrow functions or continute to use var). MDN is pretty much better in every way.
For CSS and Javascript I've found MDN to be more comprehensive.
I do use w3schools for SQL syntax though - I haven't found any better resource for this, and generally Google gives me MSDN articles about TSQL which are usually of no use to me.
I do use w3schools for SQL syntax though - I haven't found any better resource for this, and generally Google gives me MSDN articles about TSQL which are usually of no use to me.
If you want to know “why”, Google w3fools.
They’ve since changed their stance, but I think the website has not substantially improved since w3fools’ inception.
They’ve since changed their stance, but I think the website has not substantially improved since w3fools’ inception.
I don't feel like ranking results according to a query makes a lot of sense nowadays. Google works pretty well that it is almost always able to give you results that are relevant to your query.
But where Google fails and other search engine is to show results that are relevant to the user.
As some comments have said here for the query "python throw exception" some people want to get the official python doc when others want a snippet and when other want a tutorial, and some want other things. The fact that there is only one first result and it is the same for everyone IS the issue.
In my personal experience Google works very well for code queries much better than any queries on SEO topics
But where Google fails and other search engine is to show results that are relevant to the user.
As some comments have said here for the query "python throw exception" some people want to get the official python doc when others want a snippet and when other want a tutorial, and some want other things. The fact that there is only one first result and it is the same for everyone IS the issue.
In my personal experience Google works very well for code queries much better than any queries on SEO topics
> But we’re Google fails…is to show results that are relevant to the user
This is going to sound tongue-in-cheek but I mean it with all sincerity: isn’t it wild given the data they hoover up?
This is going to sound tongue-in-cheek but I mean it with all sincerity: isn’t it wild given the data they hoover up?
Maybe, but compared to other they don't do worse
You're exactly right. Google tends to regress to the mean - what do most people want to see as their first result? but You.com allows you to prefer sources that you'd personally like to see first
Even PG had chimed in about the fact that there are underserved niches within the Google Search, and I wonder if this is going to create a Craigslist effect, where companies will be successful in search niches.
Time to disrupt the disruptor.
Time to disrupt the disruptor.
I'm immediately suspicious because of the inclusion of cooking. Google's cooking results aren't bad because Google is bad at cooking content; they're bad because Google is giving people what they actually want, which is lifestyle content. Most people searching for cassoulet aren't actually looking to make a cassoulet; they just enjoy reading about it.
I say this as someone who is ultra-annoyed at the state of cooking results on Google (I want to make the cassoulet!). But there probably aren't enough of me to sustain a product --- and I'm not sure I'd even like that product, because even if Google gave me the most useful practitioner content it could, it still wouldn't be meaningfully curated. I can get recipes for anything from sites like Epicurious, but I'd sooner search for code tips on Expert Sex Change than try an Epicurious recipe. That's what Food52 and Serious Eats are for.
Similarly, programming is a weird callout here. I've never heard of the code search engine they mention ("Neeva"?) and, if that name comes up a week from now, I still won't have heard of it. Stack Overflow solved this problem pretty decisively, and they did it with a Google-first strategy, which is the reason the first example code search in this article has strong Stack Overflow results at the top of the SERP.
I say this as someone who is ultra-annoyed at the state of cooking results on Google (I want to make the cassoulet!). But there probably aren't enough of me to sustain a product --- and I'm not sure I'd even like that product, because even if Google gave me the most useful practitioner content it could, it still wouldn't be meaningfully curated. I can get recipes for anything from sites like Epicurious, but I'd sooner search for code tips on Expert Sex Change than try an Epicurious recipe. That's what Food52 and Serious Eats are for.
Similarly, programming is a weird callout here. I've never heard of the code search engine they mention ("Neeva"?) and, if that name comes up a week from now, I still won't have heard of it. Stack Overflow solved this problem pretty decisively, and they did it with a Google-first strategy, which is the reason the first example code search in this article has strong Stack Overflow results at the top of the SERP.
Who is looking for paragraphs and paragraphs of poorly written memories about their childhood in the countryside when they type in "gingerbread recipe"?
The fall leaves change colors along the windy path to Grandma's cottage with the crisp smell of freshly burnt firewood in the distance while my trusty spotted Labrador plays with me and my sister at the creek by the meadow. As Fido splashes playfully after a school of tadpoles, a scent of gingerbread cusps over the sunburnt field and tickles my senses like the first soft ray of sunshine on a dewdripped morning
I smell 1tsp of ground ginger as I remove a piece of driftwood and toss it on to the old cornhusks amidst overgrown willows as my companion chases after it. We race together back to the warmth of grandmother's kitchen overcome by the rapturous aplomb of allspice, cinnamon and cloves all at 1/4 tsp.
That was 40 years ago and I've longed to touch the perfection of those fretless childhood days of a memorized youth modified by dreams. This gingerbread loaf lets me relive the magic of a forgotten freedom with a preparation time of merely 90 minutes.
I close my eyes during the baking as I lie on my afghan rug in my Boston apartment knowing there's another generation of youth passing by idyllic days on those timeless Connecticut farms where the 1/4 cup of unsalted butter comes from.
I mean it's just insanity. I'm not doing them justice. The real stuff looks AI generated
I honestly don't think these people exist. It's just SEO food
The fall leaves change colors along the windy path to Grandma's cottage with the crisp smell of freshly burnt firewood in the distance while my trusty spotted Labrador plays with me and my sister at the creek by the meadow. As Fido splashes playfully after a school of tadpoles, a scent of gingerbread cusps over the sunburnt field and tickles my senses like the first soft ray of sunshine on a dewdripped morning
I smell 1tsp of ground ginger as I remove a piece of driftwood and toss it on to the old cornhusks amidst overgrown willows as my companion chases after it. We race together back to the warmth of grandmother's kitchen overcome by the rapturous aplomb of allspice, cinnamon and cloves all at 1/4 tsp.
That was 40 years ago and I've longed to touch the perfection of those fretless childhood days of a memorized youth modified by dreams. This gingerbread loaf lets me relive the magic of a forgotten freedom with a preparation time of merely 90 minutes.
I close my eyes during the baking as I lie on my afghan rug in my Boston apartment knowing there's another generation of youth passing by idyllic days on those timeless Connecticut farms where the 1/4 cup of unsalted butter comes from.
I mean it's just insanity. I'm not doing them justice. The real stuff looks AI generated
I honestly don't think these people exist. It's just SEO food
> Google is giving people what they actually want, which is lifestyle content
you're right that google is giving people what they want, the people that are getting just aren't the ones searching, they are the people who are making money from you having to scroll through pages of ads before getting to the actual recipe.
you're right that google is giving people what they want, the people that are getting just aren't the ones searching, they are the people who are making money from you having to scroll through pages of ads before getting to the actual recipe.
[deleted]
re: programing/code comment...(disclaimer, I work for Neeva) we are actually an ad-free, private search engine. Comprehensive search which includes user friendly code query results and no ads and no affiliate links. We also block third party trackers, give you agency over preferred sources, and lots of unique features that no other traditional search engine that relies on ad revenue can offer. If your curious, check us out at neeva.co
What annoys me most about google search is that they show at most ~500 results for any search.
No way to get to results that are not surfaced . If you're searching for something which contains terms related to heavily SEOd verticals, there's absolutely no way to find "real" results.
Just let me decide if the long tail is interesting, please.
I realized that the decline quality of Google Search is changing my habits as a programmer. I even wrote a small blog post about that: https://www.joseferben.com/posts/how-google-search-is-making...
Nowadays, Google search results full of tons of AI/auto generated sites like KKnews.cc , which rakes in millions of IP per month with their bad quality/copied contents, also, don't forget those sites often got millions/billions pages, which jammed Google database centers.
I have no idea why Google won't do anything to these spam sites.
I have no idea why Google won't do anything to these spam sites.
Is that because users are starting to use other engines like DDG, meaning google have trouble learning its AI models?
I have to say that most of the time, when I search for something related to python, it's difficult to land on the official doc, it's always something like tutorial point or something else, it's annoying. Same thing when I want to land on a wikipedia article.
Maybe it would be a cool thing if I could limit my search to a list of specific websites, like reddit, stackoverflow, wikipedia, official docs, cppreference.com, etc, to filter all blogspam.
Honestly I would actually use a search engine that lets you filter result from a list of websites, or maybe a search engine could decide to build a whitelist of trusty or quality websites (and being transparent about not letting those websites pay).
I would also love if tineye and google reverse image search had more options.
I have to say that most of the time, when I search for something related to python, it's difficult to land on the official doc, it's always something like tutorial point or something else, it's annoying. Same thing when I want to land on a wikipedia article.
Maybe it would be a cool thing if I could limit my search to a list of specific websites, like reddit, stackoverflow, wikipedia, official docs, cppreference.com, etc, to filter all blogspam.
Honestly I would actually use a search engine that lets you filter result from a list of websites, or maybe a search engine could decide to build a whitelist of trusty or quality websites (and being transparent about not letting those websites pay).
I would also love if tineye and google reverse image search had more options.
(Disclaimer, work for Neeva), but sounds like we might offer a lot of what you are looking for. We are an ad-free, private search engine. Which means no ads, no affiliate links and you data is not sold or shared. We give users control letting you customize your search result preferences for sources including news, shopping and more. Want more of X? That's your choice. want to see less of Y? That's your choice. We also block third party trackers, let you search across personal apps like dropbox and email all from the same search bar. See for yourself neeva.com
> … maybe I'm not asking the right questions,
You’re holding it wrong :-)
You’re holding it wrong :-)
Not convinced. The example of a blueberry pancake recipe has a big button titled
"jump to recipe" a few lines in and the ads covering the page is what 99% of the
internet looks like without an adblocker. That doesn't sound like the fault of
the search engine (but it is probably the fault of Google itself).
As to this:
>> Google rating: “This search result page is just okay. I don't like the first search result (I already know what exceptions are in programming, so the official Python documentation is way more than I need). I have to scroll halfway down before finding the information that I want.
The Python documentation is the primary source for what is being searched for. I don't think it's too much to ask to "scroll halfway down". That comes across as a bit petulant, to be honest.
As to this:
>> Google rating: “This search result page is just okay. I don't like the first search result (I already know what exceptions are in programming, so the official Python documentation is way more than I need). I have to scroll halfway down before finding the information that I want.
The Python documentation is the primary source for what is being searched for. I don't think it's too much to ask to "scroll halfway down". That comes across as a bit petulant, to be honest.
Couldn't disagree more with the code examples.
Whenever I'm looking for answer that can be answered by the standard library I really do want to get the actual documentation of that language and not a random stackoverflow solution.
It depends for me. Sometimes I am simply after the documentation but often I want to make some weird plot and would like to see if anyone else has tried to make said weird plot using the same library before. I don't think there is any way to optimise for which to prioritise without including the word "documentation" in your query.
I'm teaching my partner to drive and I've noticed that Google Maps will suggest very different routes to the same destination. It's also less accurate in estimating times, adding 5-10 minutes for its indirect routes versus taking straight paths.
Another thing I've noticed is that some directions will use businesses ("take a left after McDonald's") as landmarks in navigation. I'm beginning to believe the routing noise was introduced to allow navigational ads.
If the effectiveness of a core product is being compromised for monetization, is this what's also happening to their Search?
Another thing I've noticed is that some directions will use businesses ("take a left after McDonald's") as landmarks in navigation. I'm beginning to believe the routing noise was introduced to allow navigational ads.
If the effectiveness of a core product is being compromised for monetization, is this what's also happening to their Search?
The question is whether any of those other sites could maintain quality while also being Google, that is, while being target #1 for every SEO bad actor, spammer, and anti-trust regulator on the planet.
The people at W3schools are a combination of all of the above: filthy SEO spammers who would readily make an antitrust stink if Google started just ripping off their content, but who in all likelihood don't care if Neeva does that, if they've ever even heard of Neeva.
The people at W3schools are a combination of all of the above: filthy SEO spammers who would readily make an antitrust stink if Google started just ripping off their content, but who in all likelihood don't care if Neeva does that, if they've ever even heard of Neeva.
Google spies on us so they can better serve us. Maybe it’s time that they let us directly tell them what we want. Let me easily blacklist sites from the search results.
They could even take the blacklists from all people with a high reputation and use that as a signal when they are building search results for others.
They could even take the blacklists from all people with a high reputation and use that as a signal when they are building search results for others.
Sounds very easy to abuse. Don't like the competition's website? Pay a clickfarm to blacklist them on Google.
I'd prefer a browser extension that removes results locally. Actually all I need is probably just a rule in uBO.
I'd prefer a browser extension that removes results locally. Actually all I need is probably just a rule in uBO.
If Google can't tell the difference between a click farm and real people then how can they hope to have advertisers trust that their ad performance is accurate?
Bing is better in terms of video and photo search UI/UX.
Nobody I've seen touches Google in terms of Geospatial though, I wish there were a decent competitor.
Nobody I've seen touches Google in terms of Geospatial though, I wish there were a decent competitor.
I just wish Google would expand its index.
It is reasonably common that I search for a string from a bit of code and find "0 results", even though that code is up on GitHub (and probably mirrored to a bunch of other sites). GitHub search finds it fine.
Same for searching for stuff on my own personal blog. Only about half of pages are indexed, even though many have been there years.
It is reasonably common that I search for a string from a bit of code and find "0 results", even though that code is up on GitHub (and probably mirrored to a bunch of other sites). GitHub search finds it fine.
Same for searching for stuff on my own personal blog. Only about half of pages are indexed, even though many have been there years.
You.com does well on github + stackoverflow searches fwiw
Google also isn't great at surfacing genuine product reviews that aren't just people reiterating amazon reviews with referral links and SEO. Like even stuff reviewed by reputable websites somehow loses out regularly.
If I want someone's actual opinion and people I know don't have one, I have to check reddit or metafilter.
If I want someone's actual opinion and people I know don't have one, I have to check reddit or metafilter.
Google recently updated its product review algorithm.
https://blog.google/products/search/more-helpful-product-rev...
https://blog.google/products/search/more-helpful-product-rev...
I used to add inurl:forum or inurl:thread to my searches to find actual opinions from people instead of ads disguised as articles. Now I just search reddit.
Google made an algorithm change a few years back that knocked ask.metafilter.com answers way down in search results. The resulting drop in ad revenue was disastrous for metafilter, which runs with a small staff on a tight budget. Kind of bitter to remember considering the dismal quality of search results today.
This is somewhat tangential but for a lot of quick programming questions, I'm finding I don't even need a search engine.
I just use Github Copilot.
For example, if I wanted to remember how to throw an exception I'd just write that as a comment and let Copilot fill in the syntax. Between that and official docs, don't need a ton else.
I just use Github Copilot.
For example, if I wanted to remember how to throw an exception I'd just write that as a comment and let Copilot fill in the syntax. Between that and official docs, don't need a ton else.
You.com has the Code Complete app integrated into search, which is similar to Github Copilot
Sometimes I actually like to long and comprehensive recipe articles. Like compare an article from Serious Eats about pasta carbonara to just getting a 10 line recipe. Both serve their own purpose.
Same applies to programming. Sometimes I want the one liner from w3schools, sometimes I’m willing to consume the reference documentation.
Same applies to programming. Sometimes I want the one liner from w3schools, sometimes I’m willing to consume the reference documentation.
you.com is great. Will also check out Neeva.
Fantastic article, thanks for sharing.
Fantastic article, thanks for sharing.
I'm just mad I read four paragraphs before realizing this was a sales pitch. Damn my pathetic human brain meat.
Three areas where Google lags behind yesterday's Google:
Displaying actual search results
Searching for what I actually typed into the search field
Page load times
Displaying actual search results
Searching for what I actually typed into the search field
Page load times
I honestly don’t understand why W3Schools is a top site in Google. I blocked it after I realized all the site provides is a few lines of code snippets that supposedly explain how a certain CSS function works.
Even with activity tracking enabled, Google thinks I am searching for one-liners opposed to in-depth articles.
Even with activity tracking enabled, Google thinks I am searching for one-liners opposed to in-depth articles.
I absolutely detest the google optimised recipes, they're mostly just filler and you have to scroll all the way to the end to find the recipe. I just go to bbc food which has an excellent db of recipes, and they use correct temperatures for the oven too.
seriouseats.com is also a fantastic site. Recipes there are lengthy but it's because they use the length to explain things in very excellent detail, and the science behind why. Minimal adverts and high quality content, but you might need to convert some temps :)
I wonder if the constant cat and mouse play between Google algorithm updates and dark SEO optimizers could be fixed by a plethora of search engines without one specific dominant one?
I recently moved to edge from chrome because of high CPU issues with chrome. With edge I started using Bing. I found search results were better in many scenarios.
The home page for this site looks like it was designed by Stripe in their "gradient all the things fashion". Gradient Memphis?
I use the grepper chrome extension which solves the coding vertical - it embeds search results in the Google search results
anyone else find it so hard to find basic apparel and shoes? All my search results return me known brands with high ad spend. Recently started to go to reddit male fashion advice to look for crowdsourced recommendations but that's fairly time consuming.
Anyone else has other ways?
Anyone else has other ways?
do you have some specific examples? if don't want to post here, can dm dotdotjames on twitter -- we're adding product search to breezethat.com sooooooooon
not that it doesnt have valid points, but, this entire article seems like an ad for You.com
Great alternatives to Google are long overdue, you.com is solving it, glad people are noticing
I don't know why google needs to lead in any of these spaces
Maybe, these three areas don’t generate much ad revenue!!
Tiktok is amazing for cooking ideas/recipes
And image search.
the pointless animations on google search make the site truly unbearable to use, unless you have ublock to disable the animations. i can't believe it still has those animations, do people at google even use their own site?
[0] http://jollo.org/LNT/public/google-animations.html
[0] http://jollo.org/LNT/public/google-animations.html
From the article:
> What happened to page quality factors in ranking?
I've been wondering this myself. Whatever happened to penalizing webpages with intrusive popups? Or those that show different content to users than to search engines (paywalls)? (I'm sure the latter is because of lawsuits). And many years ago, there was SEO advice about not duplicating content from other sites, but these days, half the search results for e.g. Go related questions are blogspam copy/pastes from Stack Overflow.
Google Search used to be stricter.
> What happened to page quality factors in ranking?
I've been wondering this myself. Whatever happened to penalizing webpages with intrusive popups? Or those that show different content to users than to search engines (paywalls)? (I'm sure the latter is because of lawsuits). And many years ago, there was SEO advice about not duplicating content from other sites, but these days, half the search results for e.g. Go related questions are blogspam copy/pastes from Stack Overflow.
Google Search used to be stricter.
And video game walkthroughs
and images
very interesting. I'm going to start using Neeva tomorrow at work
you.com is good for coding, especially the SO results.
I mean, when you think about it, it's kind of obvious that an entity extracting revenue from selling advertisement impressions is not going to produce a very useful search engine — it's going to produce a search engine that maximises advertisement impressions. Either by encouraging the advertisers to game the search engine, or by simply preferring the paying advertisers' results, or both, on some level.
So you end up with a Google that prioritises 2-3 promoted results above actual search results (some of which represent the opposite of what you're looking for!) and everything beneath is either a massive mainstream content factory, a Reddit/SO/Quora thread, or any one of a billion terrible blogs/news hosts that contain no content or simply regurgitate someone else's content with adverts, modals, etc galore.
In fact, the only reason why Google's search engine is fairly safe in its product space — the considerable head start on potential disruptors notwithstanding — is that there apparently exists no comparably successful method to extract revenue from running a search engine.
Not that many people are realistically going to pay a monthly fee to have a Google without the noise, despite the amount of noise there is (I probably would). And let's face it, if there was a market for that, Google Premium would probably exist already. Talk about vertical integration if they did though. Help pollute the ocean of the internet then sell people premium membership to sail across it rather than swim in it.
One of the biggest things that Google did wrong was try to act as curator. The moment they start screening results by compliance with Google standards, introducing stuff like AMPHTML etc, anything like that is the moment they make themselves no different to Facebook, Twitter and every other walled garden community.
The internet is supposed to be about broadcasting information, about exploration and chasing the horizon — not locking information behind forced memberships of social networks and paywalls, tardis-like megastructures where you're encouraged to become locked in yourself.
All that should matter is that a webpage's content matches a query. Not whether their website matches some random person's idea of good UX etc. Does the content match the query. That's it. Refined obviously to assess whether a page's content is too insanely well matched (old SEO bullshit) and maybe include that domain rank stuff (if it was based on conversions so it's self-moderating rather than Google saying "[majorpublication].com is better than [randomblog].com because big business website > random person's website")
Google could have been worse, of course. AMPHTML is pretty much over, right? They track your data, yes — but show me the company that doesn't do that. Apple? Apple probably do, they just track less or whatever. Just because it's in the marketing doesn't necessarily mean that they don't do it, it just means that they know people will buy their shit if they say they don't, or make a point of doing it less.
I don't blame Google for the way their search engine has turned out. As others have said, a big part of it is the sheer amount of noise out there now. But more importantly, the way capitalism works causes most companies to produce increasingly shitty products over time. This eventually creates the opportunity for someone new to release a great product, and eventually their great product becomes a good product, and eventually that will become a shitty dividend-paying product, and the cycle will continue.
(to clarify, the opportunity isn't just there for competitors, the opportunity also exists for Google to sort their shit out too).
So you end up with a Google that prioritises 2-3 promoted results above actual search results (some of which represent the opposite of what you're looking for!) and everything beneath is either a massive mainstream content factory, a Reddit/SO/Quora thread, or any one of a billion terrible blogs/news hosts that contain no content or simply regurgitate someone else's content with adverts, modals, etc galore.
In fact, the only reason why Google's search engine is fairly safe in its product space — the considerable head start on potential disruptors notwithstanding — is that there apparently exists no comparably successful method to extract revenue from running a search engine.
Not that many people are realistically going to pay a monthly fee to have a Google without the noise, despite the amount of noise there is (I probably would). And let's face it, if there was a market for that, Google Premium would probably exist already. Talk about vertical integration if they did though. Help pollute the ocean of the internet then sell people premium membership to sail across it rather than swim in it.
One of the biggest things that Google did wrong was try to act as curator. The moment they start screening results by compliance with Google standards, introducing stuff like AMPHTML etc, anything like that is the moment they make themselves no different to Facebook, Twitter and every other walled garden community.
The internet is supposed to be about broadcasting information, about exploration and chasing the horizon — not locking information behind forced memberships of social networks and paywalls, tardis-like megastructures where you're encouraged to become locked in yourself.
All that should matter is that a webpage's content matches a query. Not whether their website matches some random person's idea of good UX etc. Does the content match the query. That's it. Refined obviously to assess whether a page's content is too insanely well matched (old SEO bullshit) and maybe include that domain rank stuff (if it was based on conversions so it's self-moderating rather than Google saying "[majorpublication].com is better than [randomblog].com because big business website > random person's website")
Google could have been worse, of course. AMPHTML is pretty much over, right? They track your data, yes — but show me the company that doesn't do that. Apple? Apple probably do, they just track less or whatever. Just because it's in the marketing doesn't necessarily mean that they don't do it, it just means that they know people will buy their shit if they say they don't, or make a point of doing it less.
I don't blame Google for the way their search engine has turned out. As others have said, a big part of it is the sheer amount of noise out there now. But more importantly, the way capitalism works causes most companies to produce increasingly shitty products over time. This eventually creates the opportunity for someone new to release a great product, and eventually their great product becomes a good product, and eventually that will become a shitty dividend-paying product, and the cycle will continue.
(to clarify, the opportunity isn't just there for competitors, the opportunity also exists for Google to sort their shit out too).
There's more: medical, crypto
lol self promo blog post bashing Google while saying they're better
Incidentally, this is a really common SEO technique now. "Alternative to X" content is always written by one of the alternatives.
[deleted]
1. w3schools
2. pinterest
3. microsoft answers and all microsoft websites actually (it always looks like the person asking the question is asking exactly what i want, but unlike stackexchange, there are seldom any useful answers)
4. all the code clones for SO
5. all alternative to / review sites like capterra, g2, alternativeto, etc. They might have some good suggestions but they always hide the link to the software/site and instead link it to their spammy page. So you have to select part of the link and then re-search it on Google. Doing this for OSS projects can sometimes lead to a whole new rabbit hole.
6. The best of lists. Google for the love of god, please ban them.. they are always always SEO spam and product placements. Often the blog post itself says "to put your product on this list pay us a $1000 and we will include them in our list."
7. Quora and similar answer sites.. okay it's a mixed bag but you have to be very careful on these sites as most often the answers are just spam. I never read any answer with a link in it. But I think it's more Quora's problem than google. But if google is strict with them they may do a better job at moderating I guess. Also now quora hides answers and asks for a payment. Did they learn nothing from experts-exchange!