Wet/Dry Vacuum Buying Guide (2019)(wet-dry-vac.com)
wet-dry-vac.com
Wet/Dry Vacuum Buying Guide (2019)
http://wet-dry-vac.com/wet-dry-vacuum-guide.html
237 comments
How weird not to see Kärcher on the list. A German family enterprise that seems to have cornered the EU market for great quality at fair prices for shop vacuums for home and professional use. They are known to be always ugly but durable and able to take any beating.
You cannot put Karcher and quality in the same sentence. Had 3 of their pressure washers of different prices and they all had a premature death. Maybe their shop vacuums are fine, but pressure washers...
I have been using the same Kärcher shop vacuum for years. Powerful, reliable, inexpensive, loud.
I’ve seen him include German tools and building hardware in other videos. I’ve never seen Kärcher in stores before. I see a ton of Bosch stuff around including things I own. Project Farm has done reviews with Bosch and Festool.
They’re all so overpriced though for really no increase in value.
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Project Farm really does some very helpful consumer research videos, he is quite active in reading the video comments for suggestions too.
I wonder where he gets the money to buy all the stuff he reviews. It can't all be coming from Patreon. He also seems to live on, and maintain, a fairly large plot of farmland.
It's coming from Youtube, here's his SocialBlade stats:
https://socialblade.com/youtube/c/@projectfarm
And I expect that he's near the top of those numbers, because his viewers are probably buying expensive tools based on his recommendations rather than an equivalent number of views watching a cartoon for kids or cute animals or something else difficult to market.
At close to a million views on many of his videos, and something like $0.01 per ad view, he's likely making on the order of $10k per video. Buying and destructively testing some shop vacs, hose clamps, or whatever is just part of that budget.
https://socialblade.com/youtube/c/@projectfarm
And I expect that he's near the top of those numbers, because his viewers are probably buying expensive tools based on his recommendations rather than an equivalent number of views watching a cartoon for kids or cute animals or something else difficult to market.
At close to a million views on many of his videos, and something like $0.01 per ad view, he's likely making on the order of $10k per video. Buying and destructively testing some shop vacs, hose clamps, or whatever is just part of that budget.
That socialblade earnings range is so wide it hilarious and completely useless.
He has stepped up to approximately one per week. That's the point at which a popular Youtube channel can be a primary income.
The reviews have gotten more in-depth and of more expensive items as he's gotten more popular over the years, which has likely given him the ability to do more frequent and expensive reviews.
On the farm part, there's a pretty funny video he has called (iirc) "Does Project Farm actually farm?"
On the farm part, there's a pretty funny video he has called (iirc) "Does Project Farm actually farm?"
I always wonder this with engineering channels. Where are these people getting thousands of pounds for each project? It must really cut into their earnings.
2.5m subscribers is nothing to sneeze at if they have ads enabled.
The problem with this guy's reviews is he's presenting it as a false choice. Here he does 6 mass-market vacuums that are all about the same price, design, and performance. He doesn't really review them on any useful basis, like how long it can run between filter changes, how much toxic dust they spew into the air, etc. This video is basically "which of these garbage vacuums will you regret buying the least?"
A useful review would give you an actual choice: what's the difference between a department store brand $100 vacuum, a $500 vacuum, and a $1000 vacuum?
A useful review would give you an actual choice: what's the difference between a department store brand $100 vacuum, a $500 vacuum, and a $1000 vacuum?
> A useful review would give you an actual choice: what's the difference between a department store brand $100 vacuum, a $500 vacuum, and a $1000 vacuum?
Strongly disagree. He's reviewing vacuums that someone would actually use in their shop environment. Who the heck is going to risk dropping $1000 on a vacuum for use in a busy shop? I'd be paranoid that something would scratch it. Or never want to use it outside of the basic parameters it's designed for. Whereas with my $50 ShopVac, I have no fear of using it and it gets used all the time, and probably for things it's not meant for.
Strongly disagree. He's reviewing vacuums that someone would actually use in their shop environment. Who the heck is going to risk dropping $1000 on a vacuum for use in a busy shop? I'd be paranoid that something would scratch it. Or never want to use it outside of the basic parameters it's designed for. Whereas with my $50 ShopVac, I have no fear of using it and it gets used all the time, and probably for things it's not meant for.
> Who the heck is going to risk dropping $1000 on a vacuum for use in a busy shop?
People who value not dying from silicosis, I guess. Obviously it depends on your use cases. Sawdust for example is not as dangerous, but you can still find various price points and performance of wood dust extractors.
People who value not dying from silicosis, I guess. Obviously it depends on your use cases. Sawdust for example is not as dangerous, but you can still find various price points and performance of wood dust extractors.
> Sawdust for example is not as dangerous
Many woods are moderately to severely toxic. Plywood glues are probably not healthy to breathe. Most finishes are undoubtedly health-hazardous in micro/nano-particle size, when inhaled.
https://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/wood-allergies-a...
Nothing good comes of breathing micro-/nano-particles, even wood ones.
Many woods are moderately to severely toxic. Plywood glues are probably not healthy to breathe. Most finishes are undoubtedly health-hazardous in micro/nano-particle size, when inhaled.
https://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/wood-allergies-a...
Nothing good comes of breathing micro-/nano-particles, even wood ones.
Nonsense, with hepa filters (which aren’t all that expensive) there isn’t really all that much different between the brands.
Sure, but we're talking about shopvacs. Wood dust extractors are their own very different thing and usually come with a whole network of ducting around the shop. What's more, good wood and metal shop practice includes a real air purifier like from Grizzly or Jet (for cheap options) to cycle air through layers of filters. My metal shop has one, it cost $250. Wet/dry vacs are for cleaning up and maybe preventing a bit of spread at the source.
My new rule of thumb is, if I am using the shopvac, I am wearing a respirator and gloves, and taking a shower immediately after. Just too much shit goes a 'flyin, no matter what it seems you are vacuuming up.
>"how much toxic dust they spew into the air"
This, to me is the most important metric. And from a person who is allergic to absolutely nothing thank spaghetti, I’ve always noticed this aspect of vacuums
To the point where I make an effort to start my vacuum out the door when first starting it such that the initial blow of the fan blasts the dust captured within to the outside.
Most people don’t realize that many vacuums have a small filter for the escape air and they never clean or change that other filter
EDIT: I also, will never have a carpeted home. The reason is, once you have a fully hardwood home, you realize just how much actual detritus accumulates in even the most lightly traveled areas.
In the 1980s we bought a house in Tahoe, and it had 2" (TWO INCH LONG) shag carpet. and it was RAINBOW COLORED.
I wish I had a pic of it, but it was literally 2" long rainbow shag carpet that was a nightmare.
https://i.imgur.com/u4sFJj2.jpg
But the entire house. 1982 cocaine house.
Carpets were invented to hide dirt. The history of the vacuum is quite amazing.
This, to me is the most important metric. And from a person who is allergic to absolutely nothing thank spaghetti, I’ve always noticed this aspect of vacuums
To the point where I make an effort to start my vacuum out the door when first starting it such that the initial blow of the fan blasts the dust captured within to the outside.
Most people don’t realize that many vacuums have a small filter for the escape air and they never clean or change that other filter
EDIT: I also, will never have a carpeted home. The reason is, once you have a fully hardwood home, you realize just how much actual detritus accumulates in even the most lightly traveled areas.
In the 1980s we bought a house in Tahoe, and it had 2" (TWO INCH LONG) shag carpet. and it was RAINBOW COLORED.
I wish I had a pic of it, but it was literally 2" long rainbow shag carpet that was a nightmare.
https://i.imgur.com/u4sFJj2.jpg
But the entire house. 1982 cocaine house.
Carpets were invented to hide dirt. The history of the vacuum is quite amazing.
Carpets catch dirt, sure.
But I would prefer that dirt be trapped in a carpet than floating around my home, kicked up again every time there is a breeze.
But I would prefer that dirt be trapped in a carpet than floating around my home, kicked up again every time there is a breeze.
Carpets also trap food particles and drink spills, so there's likely a hard-to-remove layer of decaying food particles in the carpet, especially if there are kids in the house. With hardwood floors, a robot can run around and pick all that up.
“PM10, PM2.5, PM1, and PM0.1 resuspension due to human walking”
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35463201/
I wonder if there is more of this effect on a hard floor though?
> The reason is, once you have a fully hardwood home, you realize just how much actual detritus accumulates
Can corroborate: is horrifying.
“PM10, PM2.5, PM1, and PM0.1 resuspension due to human walking”
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35463201/
Can corroborate: is horrifying.
“PM10, PM2.5, PM1, and PM0.1 resuspension due to human walking”
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35463201/
I like carpets and the feel of soft flooring in lounging areas like bedrooms and living rooms. Also good for babies and toddlers to learn to crawl and walk on.
A soft pair of slippers can give a similar effect as soft flooring.
For babies to crawl on, there are mats you can lay on the floor such as these: http://en.alzipmat.com/
The mats are easy to clean, and thus may be healthier than carpets which are difficult to deeply clean thoroughly or frequently.
For babies to crawl on, there are mats you can lay on the floor such as these: http://en.alzipmat.com/
The mats are easy to clean, and thus may be healthier than carpets which are difficult to deeply clean thoroughly or frequently.
If you dont already have a leather monger in you climate:
I HIGHLY recommend Carpet covered by Leather.
I cannot describe it - but thick leather, covering carpet, on bare-feet is amazing.
Trust me until you feel it.
I HIGHLY recommend Carpet covered by Leather.
I cannot describe it - but thick leather, covering carpet, on bare-feet is amazing.
Trust me until you feel it.
I do not understand the concept. I imagine this would be like walking on a leather sofa? If the goal is to make the leather floor soft, then I would think the same soft padding under carpets would be better than carpet itself.
I assumed most will not understand.
this is not a fetish, its just a reality: Cover a carpeted space in high quality leather. Walk on it.
Seriously. its the best walking experience.
(Source: Leather over carpet in my room.)
Best leather source ever:
https://www.yelp.com/biz/s-h-frank-and-company-san-francisco
>>>Folks, if you find yourself frustrated when you come to SH Frank, you might just be struggling with entitlement, and you may just be intolerant of different types of personalities. Larry is excellent at what he does, but he's super neurotic, and probably on the spectrum
-
Larry is like larry david, but not funny. He is the neurotic jew Larry David wished he was....
Anyway, this guy is amazingly cool - but, and I am not joking, Walk into the shop with a wrinkled $100 bill in your hand. LITERALLY A $100 BILL
And flag it around asking about prices...
I swear this is how I bought all my leather from him and its kind of an art.
this is not a fetish, its just a reality: Cover a carpeted space in high quality leather. Walk on it.
Seriously. its the best walking experience.
(Source: Leather over carpet in my room.)
Best leather source ever:
https://www.yelp.com/biz/s-h-frank-and-company-san-francisco
>>>Folks, if you find yourself frustrated when you come to SH Frank, you might just be struggling with entitlement, and you may just be intolerant of different types of personalities. Larry is excellent at what he does, but he's super neurotic, and probably on the spectrum
-
Larry is like larry david, but not funny. He is the neurotic jew Larry David wished he was....
Anyway, this guy is amazingly cool - but, and I am not joking, Walk into the shop with a wrinkled $100 bill in your hand. LITERALLY A $100 BILL
And flag it around asking about prices...
I swear this is how I bought all my leather from him and its kind of an art.
When I was trying to set up a woodworking space years ago the common wisdom was that the Ridgid was far and away your best bet for building a small scale dust collection system. It had the right balance of oomph (enough to run a dust separator if you were careful) operating hours, and ease of adapting hoses to tick the right boxes. It also notably has an exhaust hose, so you could route the microparticles outside instead of filtering them with your lungs.
Also used this beast and a couple chunks of conduit to clear a tricky gutter.
Also used this beast and a couple chunks of conduit to clear a tricky gutter.
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All of this guy's reviews are instant classics. I watch reviews of stuff I'll never buy.
One thing he can't really cover in his videos is durability.
He does do stress testing, dropping tools, etc.
Then you have AvE taking tools and torturing them until they confess, or die, their choice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztpWsuUItrA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXBiBK0TYew
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztpWsuUItrA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXBiBK0TYew
One of important things that aren't tested is the filters. If you're using a Shop Vac do yourself a favor and get a good HEPA filter.
Imagine a world where every product category had someone dedicated enough to build a site like this and keep it up to date. I'd specifically love one for cameras, lenses, and for the analog shooters out there, film.
There exist countless sites for any product category in any language. With zero quality assurance or heart but filled with nothing but useless text and affiliate links.
Affiliate programs have destroyed this kind of web and Google happily suggests these sites as search results.
Affiliate programs have destroyed this kind of web and Google happily suggests these sites as search results.
Only continues to get worse too. I get ads for AI copywriting services on my social media all the time. Out of curiosity I joined one of the groups for one specific software - just filled with people attempting to do affiliate marketing spam. Not even tech savvy people, just suckers who are following some stupid get rich thing.
It honestly just makes me sad.
It honestly just makes me sad.
I think Ken Rockwell probably qualifies for that.
https://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/recommended-cameras.htm
I would strongly recommend against ken rockwell, much of his info is incorrect and he has…strong niche opinions, like RAW files being useless.
It's interesting... his site has plenty of valuable info but only if you're knowledgeable enough of a photographer to identify what is his opinion vs. what's an objective criticism.
Yep, I know a small bit about photography and Ken's advice is better than most. One of the few places where you will hear that some product isn't worth the money, and here is a different cheaper one that's just as good. Or that here is one that is much cheaper and most people will never notice the difference. That's very helpful to the mainstream photographer, and very rare to see.
He is not the "Stereophile" type of reviewer, for example.
He is not the "Stereophile" type of reviewer, for example.
yea Ken Rockwell is the my pillow ceo of the photography world.
And this is such a good example of why single-person review sites are not the answer to the problem. The site is in theory most useful to people who don't know much about the topic. But to know that the site isn't credible, you need to know a fair bit.
One solution is things like Consumer Reports and Wirecutter, where you have an institution that does some quality control. But I wonder if there's something in the middle, like a few good reviewers clubbing together and certifying one another, such that there's a recognizable brand that they share, one with meaningfully high standards.
One solution is things like Consumer Reports and Wirecutter, where you have an institution that does some quality control. But I wonder if there's something in the middle, like a few good reviewers clubbing together and certifying one another, such that there's a recognizable brand that they share, one with meaningfully high standards.
I've actually found some of Ken Rockwell's info on analog cameras (especially Leica & lenses) to be super helpful, but I can't speak to his digital knowledge. Also, his photography itself isn't great.
There's value but you can't just read one article. He contradicts himself. One post will rant about how digital means you don't need a tripod then another will be a glowing review of...a tripod.
I would recommend (not necessarily for your categories) https://www.rtings.com/ I use it mostly for monitors, mouse, keyboards, TVs. It does have amazon affiliate links but the test are pretty good (and standardized to allow comparisons) as far as I am concerned.
It's hard to trust a site with nothing but Amazon affiliate links.
I would say true for most affiliate sites that are just aggregating the available options.
However, there are certainly sites, and perhaps this is one, where there is considerable credibility (actual interest and knowledge), research and effort that I have no problem with the owner being compensated for providing the resource.
Even if just providing a more intuitive and deeper method to narrow down options to fit a narrower use case (which vac has the longest cord!), then there is added value.
However, there are certainly sites, and perhaps this is one, where there is considerable credibility (actual interest and knowledge), research and effort that I have no problem with the owner being compensated for providing the resource.
Even if just providing a more intuitive and deeper method to narrow down options to fit a narrower use case (which vac has the longest cord!), then there is added value.
I'd prefer such a decentralized world, but heck, if Amazon provided such an accurate, detailed, garbage-free view into product categories I might start shopping with Amazon again.
GSMArena exists and I really like it. The one I personally miss the most is one for monitors. It's way too difficult to wade trough all the models and not get tricked.
Have you seen https://www.rtings.com/ ?
https://tftcentral.co.uk/ used to be pretty good, but they don't test too many models.
https://www.the-digital-picture.com/ seems like a good one for cameras/lenses, and https://cameradecision.com/ is useful for just comparing quantitative data.
This is pretty much the world we live in now. True aficionados who devote time to discovering, analyzing, and sharing actual quality -- not because they expect to make money from doing so, but simply because they like that category. Untold amounts of time have been spent on this exact thing over the past twenty years.
The problem is discoverability. Though there are more sites like this than ever before, it's hard to find any of them. Google has been thoroughly conquered by content marketing at this point -- if you search for any product category, the first dozens of pages are 100% long form commercial advertising now. They all have much larger budgets and way better SEO skills than the average aficionado.
The problem is discoverability. Though there are more sites like this than ever before, it's hard to find any of them. Google has been thoroughly conquered by content marketing at this point -- if you search for any product category, the first dozens of pages are 100% long form commercial advertising now. They all have much larger budgets and way better SEO skills than the average aficionado.
Check out Fred Miranda for photography reviews and discussions on equipment.
Forums are awesome for this, for example. https://www.photrio.com/forum/home/
I've always liked the lens reviews on https://www.opticallimits.com/reviews
I check this every time I or someone in my family needs a new bicycle helmet:
https://helmets.org/
It never ceases to amaze me just how much complexity and story there is even in most random subjects. Wall mountable vacs. Volume levels. Power cord length. A family business that implodes after being the biggest player in the vac manufacturing market. Hose diameter. Washable filters (which should be called rinseable). Motor stages. Tank capacity.
Same, I bought a house recently and wanted to get the walls painted white. Turns out there are hundreds of different whites that are ever so slightly different from one another, various sheens that determine how reflective and glossy the paint is, various levels of durability, various schools of thought on what color goes where (i.e. one theory is glossy plain white on trim and doors, beige ish off white on walls, flat white on ceiling).
I ended up getting everything in a single shade of white, just varying levels of glossy depending on if it’s trim or ceiling. And I am not really that happy with the outcome to be honest.
I ended up getting everything in a single shade of white, just varying levels of glossy depending on if it’s trim or ceiling. And I am not really that happy with the outcome to be honest.
You'd be surprised at how well all shades of grey, from super light to actualy black, can make a space.
I had a GF who decided to paint a major wall in her house as pure pitch black. I thought it was a horrid idea, until it was finished.
Grey is the way.
Its neutral to all of your bad interior design decisions.
I had a GF who decided to paint a major wall in her house as pure pitch black. I thought it was a horrid idea, until it was finished.
Grey is the way.
Its neutral to all of your bad interior design decisions.
I bought a cheaper rigid vacuum from home depot a while back so i’m not in the market for another. When I compared the rigid vacuum to our expensive miele on a floor, the rigid picks up much more. It seems to be that household vacuums give priority to noise, light weight, maneuvering, etc. and that comes at the sacrifice of power.
I bought a rigid vacuum cleaner a few years back in part because it had "Lifetime Warranty!" emblazoned on the front of the box, and it died after about six months of light use. When I checked the terms of the warranty, it said that it was only covered if it failed on the first or second use out of the box.
https://www.ridgid.com/us/en/wet-dry-vac-warranty
> It is our experience that a product that fails prematurely due to a manufacturing defect in materials or workmanship, will generally do so very early in the products life cycle, often the first or second time the product is used. When returned for inspection, these products are generally found to still be in like new condition and show very little signs of use. It is uncommon for a product that was manufactured with a defect, to survive under normal use for any extended period of time. Products that are returned for warranty inspection after months or years of continuous reliable service are rarely found to be defective. The most common demand for service is the result of normal wear and tear issues, which may not be considered a defect in materials or workmanship.
No warranty is fine, but I don't understand how they can put that badge on the box in good conscience. It wasn't that big a deal, but it rubbed me the wrong way and I'll never buy Rigid again.
https://www.ridgid.com/us/en/wet-dry-vac-warranty
> It is our experience that a product that fails prematurely due to a manufacturing defect in materials or workmanship, will generally do so very early in the products life cycle, often the first or second time the product is used. When returned for inspection, these products are generally found to still be in like new condition and show very little signs of use. It is uncommon for a product that was manufactured with a defect, to survive under normal use for any extended period of time. Products that are returned for warranty inspection after months or years of continuous reliable service are rarely found to be defective. The most common demand for service is the result of normal wear and tear issues, which may not be considered a defect in materials or workmanship.
No warranty is fine, but I don't understand how they can put that badge on the box in good conscience. It wasn't that big a deal, but it rubbed me the wrong way and I'll never buy Rigid again.
Rigid is a Chinesium company. Surprised by your finding, but I guess it makes sense.
Some Ridgid tools are made by TTI, which is based in Hong Kong, founded by a German, and owns both US and German brands, https://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/power-tools/power-tool-dis...
> Ridgid is owned by Emerson Electric and has licensed the Ridgid brand name to TTI for the manufacture of woodworking stationary and portable power tools. Ridgid (the Ridge Tool company, a subsidiary of Emerson Electric) also makes plumbing and electrical tools that have nothing to do with TTI. These are generally made here in the U.S. Same is true of the Ridgid shop vacs, which I believe are made by Emerson Electric. These are not manufactured or warranted by TTI either.
> Also noted in a post somewhere else on the site recently was a statement that Ridgid was owned by Home Depot. Again, this is NOT true. The fact that both Home Depot and Ridgid use the color "orange" is strictly a coincidence. Home Depot does have an exclusive retail agreement for the Ridgid-brand and Ryobi-brand tools made by TTI. But Ridgid plumbing and electrical tools are not part of this agreement. Also, TTI-owned Milwaukee tools are not part of Home Depot's exclusive retail agreement either.
> Ridgid is owned by Emerson Electric and has licensed the Ridgid brand name to TTI for the manufacture of woodworking stationary and portable power tools. Ridgid (the Ridge Tool company, a subsidiary of Emerson Electric) also makes plumbing and electrical tools that have nothing to do with TTI. These are generally made here in the U.S. Same is true of the Ridgid shop vacs, which I believe are made by Emerson Electric. These are not manufactured or warranted by TTI either.
> Also noted in a post somewhere else on the site recently was a statement that Ridgid was owned by Home Depot. Again, this is NOT true. The fact that both Home Depot and Ridgid use the color "orange" is strictly a coincidence. Home Depot does have an exclusive retail agreement for the Ridgid-brand and Ryobi-brand tools made by TTI. But Ridgid plumbing and electrical tools are not part of this agreement. Also, TTI-owned Milwaukee tools are not part of Home Depot's exclusive retail agreement either.
Is there no mandatory warranty period required by law where you live? Genuinly curious.
I'm not sure; there may be. But I'll gladly give up a hundred bucks to not have to wait on hold to argue with some poor customer service rep.
What I'd really rather do is have a conversation with the person who wrote the "Lifetime Warranty" copy. What "lifetime" are they referring to? I can't think of a defense for it. I can only imagine two ways the warranty could be activated: Either you buy it and it never works to begin with, or you buy it, leave it unopened for your entire lifetime, and then open it on your deathbed to discover it doesn't work.
What I'd really rather do is have a conversation with the person who wrote the "Lifetime Warranty" copy. What "lifetime" are they referring to? I can't think of a defense for it. I can only imagine two ways the warranty could be activated: Either you buy it and it never works to begin with, or you buy it, leave it unopened for your entire lifetime, and then open it on your deathbed to discover it doesn't work.
> How Long Coverage Lasts?
> The Lifetime warranty lasts for the manufacturer’s defined lifetime of your vac. The vacs are designed to have a run life of 500-700 hours. The warranty coverage ends the shorter of: after such run life or the product becomes unusable for reasons other than defects in workmanship or material.
https://www.ridgid.com/us/en/wet-dry-vac-warranty
> The Lifetime warranty lasts for the manufacturer’s defined lifetime of your vac. The vacs are designed to have a run life of 500-700 hours. The warranty coverage ends the shorter of: after such run life or the product becomes unusable for reasons other than defects in workmanship or material.
https://www.ridgid.com/us/en/wet-dry-vac-warranty
Sorry – I’m not grokking the point you’re making – but my reading of the above is that the warranty ends when the product becomes unusable. Which, as I mentioned, is fine, but then don’t put “full lifetime warranty” on the box.
The shorter of (500-700 hours) or (when the product becomes unusable) for me was (when the product became unusable), or about 6 months.
The shorter of (500-700 hours) or (when the product becomes unusable) for me was (when the product became unusable), or about 6 months.
> When I checked the terms of the warranty, it said that it was only covered if it failed on the first or second use out of the box.
According to the warranty page you linked, "first or second use" is not a limitation. The language you quoted, however, does discourage warranty claims on products that have been used for a while. I agree that does not inspire confidence in the longevity of their products.
According to the warranty page you linked, "first or second use" is not a limitation. The language you quoted, however, does discourage warranty claims on products that have been used for a while. I agree that does not inspire confidence in the longevity of their products.
Apples and Oranges? Is the Rigid using HEPA filters? Are the settings consistent on both vacuums?
modern cannister vaccums will also contain multiple filters on the bag, motor, and exhaust. The ridgid might have more suction, but that is only part of the engineering that goes into canister vacs.
UK manufacturer Numatic's "Henry", https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/jul/24/how-hen...
> Modesty permeates Numatic. The campus is more Wernham Hogg than Silicon Valley; the firm never advertises Henry and retains no PR agency. Yet it has a turnover of almost £160m and has now made more than 14m Henry vacuums ... Duncan beams with pride as he tells me almost all of the 75 parts that make up the latest model could be used to repair “Number one”, as he calls the 1981 original; Henrys are made to last – and to be easily repaired – in the landfill age of rapid obsolescence.
https://numatic.com
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32414066
> I'll mention for the benefit of our American readers that Henry is a dry vacuum, Charles is a wet/dry, and George is a wet/dry with a tank and pump for spraying carpet cleaner.
> Modesty permeates Numatic. The campus is more Wernham Hogg than Silicon Valley; the firm never advertises Henry and retains no PR agency. Yet it has a turnover of almost £160m and has now made more than 14m Henry vacuums ... Duncan beams with pride as he tells me almost all of the 75 parts that make up the latest model could be used to repair “Number one”, as he calls the 1981 original; Henrys are made to last – and to be easily repaired – in the landfill age of rapid obsolescence.
https://numatic.com
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32414066
> I'll mention for the benefit of our American readers that Henry is a dry vacuum, Charles is a wet/dry, and George is a wet/dry with a tank and pump for spraying carpet cleaner.
The best design for a (home) vacuum I think is the Rainbow: it uses water to filter out all the dust and debris. Water is the best filter - once a dust particle touches it, it will not be blown out with the air.
The downside is how expensive and heavy the vacuum is, along with the extra time it takes to set up (add water & later discard water).
The downside is how expensive and heavy the vacuum is, along with the extra time it takes to set up (add water & later discard water).
It looks good but an actual filtered vacuum performs better. There's something entirely satisfying about dumping out that filthy water afterwards, however, that you don't quite get with a bagged vacuum.
"Bagless" vacuums like the popular Dyson are a joke compared to either.
"Bagless" vacuums like the popular Dyson are a joke compared to either.
> "Bagless" vacuums like the popular Dyson are a joke compared to either.
The Dyson weighs considerably less. Turns out there's tradeoffs in different engineering solutions.
The Dyson weighs considerably less. Turns out there's tradeoffs in different engineering solutions.
My parents have always been quite happy with their central vac. It solves the problem by just exhausting anything that evades the filter to the outside.
I love my Ridgid wet/dry vac. They're the only brand I can find in stores that sell a "HEPA" filter+bag combo for trapping fine drywall dust. Lots of accessories available, including a unique water pump attachment that hooks up to a garden hose.
The portable corded Dewalt (Alton) DXV04T has an optional HEPA filter, https://www.protoolreviews.com/dewalt-4-gallon-wet-dry-vac-r...
Did some research and Ridgid is king. Also seen that HF Bauer vacs are also a strong competitor. Do love that I can wash the filter on my Redgid and install those bags.
Harbor Freight stuff seems to be getting better and better. Of course they still sell a lot of junk, but in my experience their toolboxes, power tools, and hand tools are generally much better today than they were 10 years ago.
It's notable for all users in the EU that the EU versions of these products are very different because there are power and noise limits on EU products.
Products made before the power and noise limits came into force now sell for a lot of money, because they work better!
Products made before the power and noise limits came into force now sell for a lot of money, because they work better!
I bought the cheap black friday rigid from home depot for $49 and have been pleased with it. I have a koi pond and purchased an expensive pond vacuum however. If you live in an area prone to flooding, it's pretty incredible. Instead of shutting off when full, it has a discharge hose. It can run continuously while vacuuming. Meaning it fills up and then empties itself while running. Would be a godsend if you ever experience flooding inside your home. I hope I never have to use it that way.
Too bad there are no reviews of Fein and Festool vacs. I've had a Fein for over 20 years, still going strong, can still get parts. Nice and quiet too. Love that thing.
Wow, I learned that I could have a wet vac drain.
My yard is absurd clay. I've used my wet/dry vac, along with an electric pressure washer, to dig holes and remove tree roots (easier to cut what you can see).
A drain would increase my work time, at the expense of thicker sludge when I'd have to empty the vac manually. What I really want is to move the mud slurry, not store it. I suppose I should build an open frame to replace the vacuum body, and just use the pump lid.
My yard is absurd clay. I've used my wet/dry vac, along with an electric pressure washer, to dig holes and remove tree roots (easier to cut what you can see).
A drain would increase my work time, at the expense of thicker sludge when I'd have to empty the vac manually. What I really want is to move the mud slurry, not store it. I suppose I should build an open frame to replace the vacuum body, and just use the pump lid.
Fantastic stuff!
This kind of website (filter search list) often looks intimidating at the first glance but they're surprisingly very easy to use, from my experience using Digi-key as a non-EE professional.
I do have a question about shop-vac in general: Under what situation you (as your household) need one comparing to just having a normal "dry" vacuum? I never owned one so don't see its applications.
This kind of website (filter search list) often looks intimidating at the first glance but they're surprisingly very easy to use, from my experience using Digi-key as a non-EE professional.
I do have a question about shop-vac in general: Under what situation you (as your household) need one comparing to just having a normal "dry" vacuum? I never owned one so don't see its applications.
You can remove the paper filter and clean up liquid spills--plumbing overflows, accidents in the kitchen, etc.
Great site, but in my experience, the challenge with this kind of thing is designing a (preferably automated) process to keep the data up to date without more work than keeping it running is worth to you. I’d be curious to know if the original author has found ways to automate this, or if he’s somehow maintained a high level of motivation (or if it’s been abandoned).
Nice search engine, but the 'country of origin' information is often lacking from product descriptions or is highly ambiguous ('Made in China' vs. 'Assembled in USA' for example - 'Made in USA' gets zero results).
I'd guess almost all the parts are manufactured in China these days, even if some assembly is done in the USA.
I'd guess almost all the parts are manufactured in China these days, even if some assembly is done in the USA.
Looks like a very useful tool - all searches should be on actual characteristics like this!
Of course, there's always more to add, and the first items I notice are that there seems to be nothing from Fein (makes great vacs, I've used one in my workshop for years), and that we can't sort by CFM, Lift, or Air Watts.
Please keep up the good work!
Of course, there's always more to add, and the first items I notice are that there seems to be nothing from Fein (makes great vacs, I've used one in my workshop for years), and that we can't sort by CFM, Lift, or Air Watts.
Please keep up the good work!
From the guide:
> The original, and most iconic manufacturer of wet-dry vacuums, the privately held Shop-Vac Company, imploded and went out of business.
A disappointing sign of the times, but luckily (so far) I've been able to find 3rd party replacement bags and supplies for my 3 Shop-Vacs online.
> The original, and most iconic manufacturer of wet-dry vacuums, the privately held Shop-Vac Company, imploded and went out of business.
A disappointing sign of the times, but luckily (so far) I've been able to find 3rd party replacement bags and supplies for my 3 Shop-Vacs online.
They were resuscitated in 2021, https://www.inquirer.com/business/shop-vac-vacuum-williamspo...
> The bank indeed sold Shop-Vac’s assets to a Chinese company. But the new owner, through its subsidiary GreatStar Tools USA, decided to keep Shop-Vac’s operations in Williamsport, led by new American managers. More than 200 of the old workers -- about half of the previous Pennsylvania workforce -- were retained or rehired this year ... Shop-Vac will continue to produce motor assemblies for all of its vacuums in Asia, and it will also continue to produce small Shop-Vacs -- under four gallons -- in China or in Vietnam to reduce tariff costs. Those smaller household vacuums sell at a lower profit margin, and they can still be produced in Asia at a lower cost.
> The bank indeed sold Shop-Vac’s assets to a Chinese company. But the new owner, through its subsidiary GreatStar Tools USA, decided to keep Shop-Vac’s operations in Williamsport, led by new American managers. More than 200 of the old workers -- about half of the previous Pennsylvania workforce -- were retained or rehired this year ... Shop-Vac will continue to produce motor assemblies for all of its vacuums in Asia, and it will also continue to produce small Shop-Vacs -- under four gallons -- in China or in Vietnam to reduce tariff costs. Those smaller household vacuums sell at a lower profit margin, and they can still be produced in Asia at a lower cost.
Anything to attach the blowers to for use as a compressor? Shop vac is really useful on a boat and the blower can do 90% of the inflatables to top-off with a compressor. Bolting something on the blower for the last 10% would be awesome.
Since I already had a ryobi drill, I bought a ryobi battery powered vacuum that uses the same batteries. It's not going to be stronger than the ridgid or shopvacs but it definitely gets the job done for cleaning my car.
The best vacuum I own is a shop vac I got for $10 in an estate sale. It gives no fucks about me, and I give no fucks about it. When it dies I'll go spend $10 again. Perfection
EDIT: I misunderstood the purpose of the site, my bad. Ignore this.
Actually I will reply to a couple of your points anyway, since I have your original message open on a separate device. I hope this may be helpful. :-)
Regarding the thin non-HEPA filters that come with the packs of bags, if your Miele is anything like mine, you're supposed to use one of those and the HEPA filter. There is a vertical tray behind the bag compartment that snaps open where you can insert one of these pre-filters. (You may need to cut it to size.) The air exiting the bag goes through the pre-filter first and then the HEPA filter, so the HEPA filter clogs more slowly.
On the cord retrieval system, my vacuum came with instructions to hold the plug while the cord is pulled in, and only let it go when the slack has been all taken up. This prevents the whipping you mentioned.
Regarding the thin non-HEPA filters that come with the packs of bags, if your Miele is anything like mine, you're supposed to use one of those and the HEPA filter. There is a vertical tray behind the bag compartment that snaps open where you can insert one of these pre-filters. (You may need to cut it to size.) The air exiting the bag goes through the pre-filter first and then the HEPA filter, so the HEPA filter clogs more slowly.
On the cord retrieval system, my vacuum came with instructions to hold the plug while the cord is pulled in, and only let it go when the slack has been all taken up. This prevents the whipping you mentioned.
The compartment there is not for the filter that comes with the bags. You'll notice the cut lines don't match up. That filter behind the bags is the pre-motor filter. It's a very wirey filter, kind of like the back of a sponge. It's not smooth.
If you try using an exhaust filter on the motor intake, it will starve the intake, stressing the motor.
If you try using an exhaust filter on the motor intake, it will starve the intake, stressing the motor.
My previous comment about the filters was unclear, sorry.
I just opened a fresh box of GN bags for my C1, and it came with two flat filters along with the bags.
One is a soft filter with Air Clean printed on it. It has cut lines that match the size of the HEPA filter.
My C1 came without the HEPA filter but had a filter holder designed to hold the soft filter if you don't have the HEPA. I put a HEPA filter in mine, so I don't use that holder or this soft filter.
The other is the wiry scratchy filter which goes in the vertical filter holder. This is the pre-motor filter you're talking about, and it has cut lines that match that filter holder. I use this one along with the HEPA filter.
Are we on the same page now? Want to make sure I didn't get it wrong. :-)
I just opened a fresh box of GN bags for my C1, and it came with two flat filters along with the bags.
One is a soft filter with Air Clean printed on it. It has cut lines that match the size of the HEPA filter.
My C1 came without the HEPA filter but had a filter holder designed to hold the soft filter if you don't have the HEPA. I put a HEPA filter in mine, so I don't use that holder or this soft filter.
The other is the wiry scratchy filter which goes in the vertical filter holder. This is the pre-motor filter you're talking about, and it has cut lines that match that filter holder. I use this one along with the HEPA filter.
Are we on the same page now? Want to make sure I didn't get it wrong. :-)
Ah. Okay. The Air Clean is the not-as-good-as-HEPA filter they provide for the lower end models and requires an adapter.
When I buy bags, I get the Air Clean filters with them, but it doesn't come with the premotor filter.
I should have figured that different retailers would package differently. That's my bad.
When I buy bags, I get the Air Clean filters with them, but it doesn't come with the premotor filter.
I should have figured that different retailers would package differently. That's my bad.
Interesting. Yes, when I bought my C1 there were two models I looked at with a $100 price difference. They were identical other than the more expensive one including a HEPA filter where the cheaper one had the Air Clean filter and holder. But a HEPA filter by itself only cost $55, so I bought the cheap one and a separate HEPA filter.
In case it helps, here are the bag+filter packages I've been getting:
https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B00UTFZAII/
This definitely has both the throwaway Air Clean filter and the scratchy pre-motor filter.
In case it helps, here are the bag+filter packages I've been getting:
https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B00UTFZAII/
This definitely has both the throwaway Air Clean filter and the scratchy pre-motor filter.
We have a super expensive Miele bagless and a cheap Kärcher and I always end up using the Kärcher as I don't need to be afraid to break anything... I like Miele products (we have dishwasher stove and dryer and are just waiting for our Samsung washer to fail to buy a Miele) but the price always makes me afraid that any damage will cost me dearly...
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Miele don't produce wet/dry vacuums, AFAIK? Just "regular" style.
Oh, I thought this for wet OR dry vacuums, not ones that could do both.
Uncanny timing, I literally just bought a Numatic George yesterday!
When i bought my own place, i hired a cleaner to do a deep clean before moving in. I asked her what vacuum cleaner to buy, and she recommended a Henry with no hesitation. They're big and heavy, but they'll suck up anything and they're indestructible. I also got a George; i'll mention for the benefit of our American readers that Henry is a dry vacuum, Charles is a wet/dry, and George is a wet/dry with a tank and pump for spraying carpet cleaner.
There seem to be no Numatics in this database: http://wet-dry-vac.com/?manu=Numatic%
There seem to be no Numatics in this database: http://wet-dry-vac.com/?manu=Numatic%
I got a Makita shop vac a couple of years ago for home use. It's huge, loud, and heavy. But it sure is the best vacuum I've ever owned.
Whatever you do get a cyclone filter
More than I'll ever need to know about vacuums. Next time my wife has a question I may be able to answer.
This site might be able to help also: https://www.vacuumland.org
I need a new dust filter for my Hoover Max Extract Pressure Pro model 60.
Can perhaps anyone on HN assist? It's urgent.
Can perhaps anyone on HN assist? It's urgent.
To pull back the camera a bit:
Hey, HN type people: How can we build a network of people and sites like this to replace the inferior process of adding "reddit" to the Google searches to actually find useful information?
Hey, HN type people: How can we build a network of people and sites like this to replace the inferior process of adding "reddit" to the Google searches to actually find useful information?
That part's easy. The hard part is that, as soon as it's a trusted source, somebody shows up with sacks of money.
That whole mattress review scandal with Sleepopolis and HonestMattressReviews shows exactly what happens when sites like this get big.
So they need to stay small and secret. Unfortunate.
That whole mattress review scandal with Sleepopolis and HonestMattressReviews shows exactly what happens when sites like this get big.
So they need to stay small and secret. Unfortunate.
I wish Google would add an advanced search parameter, maybe called "Unpolished discussion" for this reason (but to include forums, etc - results beyond just Reddit).
I was looking at vacation destinations recently, and considering taking a toddler, and Google searches for things like "Destination A vs Destination B" or "Destination A with toddlers" led to so much SEO junk. Ads for shiny e-books with regurgitated information, text that was clearly robot-generated, etc. Then adding "reddit" to the end of the searches does get you to helpful discussion from everyday people. Sure, you might have to read between the lines ("oh, this person seems unwilling to pay more than Motel 6 rates", "oh, this person seems like they might be afraid of black people", etc). Sure, the info might be out of date, or otherwise in need of verification. But you can quickly accumulate some useful ideas that the shinier SEO-optimized junk sites just don't seem to provide.
I was looking at vacation destinations recently, and considering taking a toddler, and Google searches for things like "Destination A vs Destination B" or "Destination A with toddlers" led to so much SEO junk. Ads for shiny e-books with regurgitated information, text that was clearly robot-generated, etc. Then adding "reddit" to the end of the searches does get you to helpful discussion from everyday people. Sure, you might have to read between the lines ("oh, this person seems unwilling to pay more than Motel 6 rates", "oh, this person seems like they might be afraid of black people", etc). Sure, the info might be out of date, or otherwise in need of verification. But you can quickly accumulate some useful ideas that the shinier SEO-optimized junk sites just don't seem to provide.
Well, thanks to HN's durability and Google's crawler we can count on being able to find this site as "that unbelievably ugly wet-dry vacuum database" hereafter.
Practicing that often gives me the feeling that I just need any opinion about one of the many choices. Only after that I can commit to eg. buying something but I still know that I most likely only scratched the surface. I can't just try things out, I need to conclude first that I won't be able to pick the best option. Or just trust the one random person on reddit that was satisfied with his or her choice like it's your best friend.
Any real review is like a vector basis. It establishes a universe in which you can evaluate the claims.
Take this one-star review of a wet-dry vac:
"I bought this thing specifically to suck out the ash in my fireplace. It got use with some other projects like small wood chips and sawdust before I tackled the fireplace, and it did fine. Then I put it to task. It sucked up maybe 1/5 capacity of dust and just stopped."
If the top rated one-star review for this consumer-level vacuum is that the filter immediately clogs when you *SUCK UP ASH FROM A FIREPLACE* then I know hey, this one-star reviewer doesn't understand vacuums.
So yeah, as long as you find one guy on Reddit who's really happy with the vacuum and the one-star reviews are stupid, you've got a good product.
Take this one-star review of a wet-dry vac:
"I bought this thing specifically to suck out the ash in my fireplace. It got use with some other projects like small wood chips and sawdust before I tackled the fireplace, and it did fine. Then I put it to task. It sucked up maybe 1/5 capacity of dust and just stopped."
If the top rated one-star review for this consumer-level vacuum is that the filter immediately clogs when you *SUCK UP ASH FROM A FIREPLACE* then I know hey, this one-star reviewer doesn't understand vacuums.
So yeah, as long as you find one guy on Reddit who's really happy with the vacuum and the one-star reviews are stupid, you've got a good product.
I guess the question is how do you prevent astroturfing and how do you fund it?
Wirecutter being a prime example, they tend to exclude products they can't get an affiliate link for. So their incentives are not always aligned with yours.
Wirecutter being a prime example, they tend to exclude products they can't get an affiliate link for. So their incentives are not always aligned with yours.
I knew something had to be up with them. It’s bad when I come across a round-up or comparison that fails to even mention my top options, and that seems to be the norm over there.
Kagi (a search engine you pay for) has a feature called Lenses. One of the default lenses is for "Discussions". It's been quite helpful for me, personally, so far.
You don't. Anything large enough to be useful as a destination for that info is large enough to be gamed.
And that's assuming you can even amass useful information. For every useful bit of information you will have to filter out ten dolts who just want to hype whatever premium product they bought in order to self-justify the purchase (see for example Reddit's penchant for certain brands in certain product categories).
And that's assuming you can even amass useful information. For every useful bit of information you will have to filter out ten dolts who just want to hype whatever premium product they bought in order to self-justify the purchase (see for example Reddit's penchant for certain brands in certain product categories).
We're trying to build such a network of sites at https://Looria.com. We aggregate and summarize the most trusted product reviews on the web from sources like Reddit, Youtube, or Consumer Reports. Just like Rotten Tomatoes provides trustworthy ratings for movies, Looria offers ratings and reviews for all kinds of products.
We focus on keeping track of and removing the special status of sources caught getting paid to write fake reviews. Some categories are more prone to astroturfing than others, and we account for that by restricting the sources. Actively curating the sources is part of our daily work.
We focus on keeping track of and removing the special status of sources caught getting paid to write fake reviews. Some categories are more prone to astroturfing than others, and we account for that by restricting the sources. Actively curating the sources is part of our daily work.
Good question.
I’m the meantime before such a site exists, the (imperfect) solution is to do research as well as you can, and only buy products from vendors who offer a good return policy. In the US, Costco comes to mind.
And be brutal about returning stuff that is not great.
I’m the meantime before such a site exists, the (imperfect) solution is to do research as well as you can, and only buy products from vendors who offer a good return policy. In the US, Costco comes to mind.
And be brutal about returning stuff that is not great.
We could revisit the ancient practice of hosting websites.
It's amazing how much more useful this site is than anything I've found on google recently
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When I read the description on HEPA filters, it is alarming advice to me:
The professional vacuums (such as some manufactured Pullman Holt, Nikro) are tested and certified for these purposes. Please do comprehensive research when dealing with hazardous materials. Consider professional abatement services.
Edit: formatting, disclaimer, typos, precision
> "[A HEPA Filter] is particularly useful for very fine dust that can be harmful, like asbestos or mold spores [...]"
The professional vacuums (such as some manufactured Pullman Holt, Nikro) are tested and certified for these purposes. Please do comprehensive research when dealing with hazardous materials. Consider professional abatement services.
Edit: formatting, disclaimer, typos, precision
This is an important disclaimer.
I'll mention, though, that a HEPA filter on the vacuum, together with an N95 on your face, is often adequate, even if the vacuum doesn't have a properly sealed full HEPA system. The upside of a HEPA filter on the vacuum which most of the air passes through is that it will catch most (not 99+%) of the fine dust. If you reduce fine, harmful dust by 80% every time (assuming 80% of the air passes through the filter and 20% goes around it), after three cleanings, you'll have removed >99% of the fine dust.
A lot of this depends on the level of hazard. There's a scale from pollen allergies to nuclear/BSL-4 waste.
For the pollen end, I've found that combined half-measures usually do better than the uber-over-engineered stuff.
I'll mention, though, that a HEPA filter on the vacuum, together with an N95 on your face, is often adequate, even if the vacuum doesn't have a properly sealed full HEPA system. The upside of a HEPA filter on the vacuum which most of the air passes through is that it will catch most (not 99+%) of the fine dust. If you reduce fine, harmful dust by 80% every time (assuming 80% of the air passes through the filter and 20% goes around it), after three cleanings, you'll have removed >99% of the fine dust.
A lot of this depends on the level of hazard. There's a scale from pollen allergies to nuclear/BSL-4 waste.
For the pollen end, I've found that combined half-measures usually do better than the uber-over-engineered stuff.
This is where Europe labelling and certification make more sense. L, M , H and H asbestos. Having a HEPA filter is like saying your clothes is 100% polyester, doesn't really say anything useful.
While good advice in general, these sort of products are designed for professionals with 40 hours of exposure a week to hazardous materials. Vacuuming up small quantities on an infrequent basis isn't going to create an elevated risk.
Something is clearly wrong if you are being exposed to hazardous materials 40 hours a week.
What if you work for a company that specialises in complex clean ups?
Sadly, I know that a number more than zero of building companies will simply bury asbestos when they happen upon it, rather than paying through the nose for specialist disposal companies.
Sadly, I know that a number more than zero of building companies will simply bury asbestos when they happen upon it, rather than paying through the nose for specialist disposal companies.
Companies that specialises in complex clean ups will most certainly have all sorts of regulations and procedures employees need to follow before, during and after performing a job. Assess the risk and determine how to perform the task in the safest manner possible by following the appropriate standards.
Do all companies follow these steps, no. Can they be held accountable for neglecting safety, yes. Being exposed to hazard materials like asbestos is gross negligence. Knowing that such a company exists doesn't means it's normal or common practice.
Do all companies follow these steps, no. Can they be held accountable for neglecting safety, yes. Being exposed to hazard materials like asbestos is gross negligence. Knowing that such a company exists doesn't means it's normal or common practice.
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Great info, but man, making the background a bluish slate grey without changing the default blue link color was a bad decision. Illegible on my devices. This is a much more obvious problem than most "well X is my favorite color and it it looks fine on my monitor" developer design decisions, but the subtler ones can be as or more consequential. Design is more than decoration and really knowing how it works takes a lot more learning and practice than many developers realize.
> Alton Industries makes all Stanley and most Porter-Cable vacs, as well as most Dewalt wet/dry vacuums! Understanding these relationships can be important for your vacuum choice. You might love well Dewalt manufacturers its drills, but that would not be a reason to purchase a large Dewalt vac, since it's not manufactured by them—Dewalt licensed their brand name for vacuums to Alton Industries.
We have gone from branding that consumers revognise to branding spesifically being used to mislead and confuse customers. Hwat went wrong in the market?
We have gone from branding that consumers revognise to branding spesifically being used to mislead and confuse customers. Hwat went wrong in the market?
> Hwat went wrong in the market?
If you're the CEO of a company, licensing out your brand seems like free money, in the short term.
If you're a well known international brand of backhoes, and somebody offers you $x00k/year to put your logo on their line of disposable batteries? No cost to you, no effort needed on your part, it's pure profit.
It's only in the medium term you run into problems - if they're shitty batteries, that might damage your reputation and harm your backhoe sales. Or even if they're perfectly good batteries, having your name on consumer-grade disposable items might be a poor association if your main business is all about industrial multi-decade-life products.
Oh, some CEOs would resist the siren song of free money. But others will ignore the 'fuzzy marketing mumbo-jumbo' about 'brand reputation' and comfort themselves with the assumption their customers are sophisticated enough to know the batteries don't reflect on the backhoes. Nobody expects Harley-Davidson baseball caps to be made in a Harley-Davidson factory, after all! And if you've moved jobs before the reputation impact shows up on the bottom line, it'll look like you did a great job.
If you're the CEO of a company, licensing out your brand seems like free money, in the short term.
If you're a well known international brand of backhoes, and somebody offers you $x00k/year to put your logo on their line of disposable batteries? No cost to you, no effort needed on your part, it's pure profit.
It's only in the medium term you run into problems - if they're shitty batteries, that might damage your reputation and harm your backhoe sales. Or even if they're perfectly good batteries, having your name on consumer-grade disposable items might be a poor association if your main business is all about industrial multi-decade-life products.
Oh, some CEOs would resist the siren song of free money. But others will ignore the 'fuzzy marketing mumbo-jumbo' about 'brand reputation' and comfort themselves with the assumption their customers are sophisticated enough to know the batteries don't reflect on the backhoes. Nobody expects Harley-Davidson baseball caps to be made in a Harley-Davidson factory, after all! And if you've moved jobs before the reputation impact shows up on the bottom line, it'll look like you did a great job.
This is called cashing out brand equity. Your brand is worth something as a signal. You can cash in on that. If you do it poorly, though, it reduces brand equity. If you do it well, then it is in fact free money other than the time spent on due diligence researching your contractors.
An example of someone currently doing that well is Kirkland house brands at Costco. They are universally known for being an incredible value and just as good or superior to the name brand stuff on the shelf next to them.
An example of someone currently doing it poorly is Pendleton, who is known for making wool blankets that cost $500 and last generations. They have been putting their name all over $20 plastic fleece blankets in the last year or so.
An example of someone currently doing that well is Kirkland house brands at Costco. They are universally known for being an incredible value and just as good or superior to the name brand stuff on the shelf next to them.
An example of someone currently doing it poorly is Pendleton, who is known for making wool blankets that cost $500 and last generations. They have been putting their name all over $20 plastic fleece blankets in the last year or so.
ironically selling the crappy blankets at Costco
>spesifically being used to mislead and confuse customers.
You trust the brand to outsource manufacturing to high-quality suppliers. They're outsourcing 99% of all components anyway. Apple does this. What is the difference?
You trust the brand to outsource manufacturing to high-quality suppliers. They're outsourcing 99% of all components anyway. Apple does this. What is the difference?
Apple designs the object made up of those components, selects the suppliers and QAs the components. They're directly involved in the manufacturing.
Dewalt (Stanley, etc.) is doing none of that, they're just white-labelling. Essentially in this relationship Dewalt is a marketer.
Dewalt (Stanley, etc.) is doing none of that, they're just white-labelling. Essentially in this relationship Dewalt is a marketer.
(without knowing the details of the DeWalt/Alton deal) There's a difference between "you can design and sell products under our brand" and "manufacture our design for us".
And Apple will even do the reverse, arranging for Apple-designed products to be sold under someone else's brand, if they don't believe that the design is up to usual Apple quality.
And Apple will even do the reverse, arranging for Apple-designed products to be sold under someone else's brand, if they don't believe that the design is up to usual Apple quality.
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What are examples of Apple doing the reverse?
Apple's wireless charger design wasn't up to snuff in time for the iPhone 8/X release date, so they arranged for someone else (Belkin?) to sell the design under their brand, so that there would be a decent wireless charger available on release day, but without sullying the Apple brand.
Source: Knew an Apple engineer who was involved with said charger.
Source: Knew an Apple engineer who was involved with said charger.
words no longer mean things.
We’re living in a world where nearly everything is low quality. It’s the old Sam Vimes narrative about being poor being expensive, but it is currently challenging for people of any means to find a quality product without loads of research and expertise.
And even then, it’s subject to change as good brands get bought by someone larger or new management comes in and cuts quality to increase margins.
We’re living in a world where nearly everything is low quality. It’s the old Sam Vimes narrative about being poor being expensive, but it is currently challenging for people of any means to find a quality product without loads of research and expertise.
And even then, it’s subject to change as good brands get bought by someone larger or new management comes in and cuts quality to increase margins.
Maybe that's true for small consumer expenses, but for things like shop vacs it's really not true. If you spend $100 on a shop vac you'll get a low end shop vac. If you spend $400 or more, you'll get a Bosch or a Festool or whatever the high end vacs are in the US, and it'll be a great shop vac. The amazing thing is that you can actually get decent shop vacs for around $150.
Which would you recommend around $150?
I really like my Karcher, I've used it for about 5 years now. It's been through a full gutting of my house and the subsequent rebuild and refinish.
If I had more money to spend I'd get an M-class vac, but the cheapest one is a Festool for 560 euros. It's not often that Festool is the cheapest in a category.
(I think the M/L class system is specific to The Netherlands: https://mastertools.nl/collections/bouwstofzuiger?refinement... basically M class means it's safe to use by professionals who work with stone dust for 8 hours per day).
If I had more money to spend I'd get an M-class vac, but the cheapest one is a Festool for 560 euros. It's not often that Festool is the cheapest in a category.
(I think the M/L class system is specific to The Netherlands: https://mastertools.nl/collections/bouwstofzuiger?refinement... basically M class means it's safe to use by professionals who work with stone dust for 8 hours per day).
>We’re living in a world where nearly everything is low quality.
Can you actually list items that, on a price-adjusted level, are lower quality? Nearly everything is of higher quality and cheaper than it ever was.
Can you actually list items that, on a price-adjusted level, are lower quality? Nearly everything is of higher quality and cheaper than it ever was.
Houses? Look at all the nice victorian houses built 100-150 years ago, for ‘average’ professionals. Solid wood doors everywhere, nicely finished walls , brass fixtures etc…
Compare this with the garbage we have in today’s McMansions … and weep.
Compare this with the garbage we have in today’s McMansions … and weep.
Survivorship bias somewhat. There were plenty of people living in literal shacks 150 years ago.
Did those people buy the shacks for $1,000,000?
Because you can buy an newbuilt apartment in London for a million dollars and it will be absolute shit. Recently builders forgot to build balconies, forgot to lay down internet cable for a block of flats, and built and entire block wrong way round. They are worse than an average javascript app!
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/uknews/16419384/persimmon-buil...
Because you can buy an newbuilt apartment in London for a million dollars and it will be absolute shit. Recently builders forgot to build balconies, forgot to lay down internet cable for a block of flats, and built and entire block wrong way round. They are worse than an average javascript app!
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/uknews/16419384/persimmon-buil...
these cowboy builders should learn to code
Fridges come to mind, but it depends on what you mean by “quality”. I had a 8 year old fridge, and attempted to replace a shelf bracket that broke because the plastic was flimsy - no parts available after 5 years. By 9 years old the brackets that held the large fan in the back of it in place had crumbled to dust.
Meanwhile fridges from the 1960s are still humming along fine.
The crumbly new fridge is more energy efficient by a long shot than that workhorse hold fridge - so it does depend on what you consider quality, but longevity and repairability are definitely major factors in what I consider quality.
Meanwhile fridges from the 1960s are still humming along fine.
The crumbly new fridge is more energy efficient by a long shot than that workhorse hold fridge - so it does depend on what you consider quality, but longevity and repairability are definitely major factors in what I consider quality.
> Meanwhile fridges from the 1960s are still humming along fine.
Fridges that you see from the 1960s are still humming along fine. All the ones that broke decades ago get none of your attention. This is survivorship bias. Reliability of products like fridges has gone up immensely over the last 50 years.
Fridges that you see from the 1960s are still humming along fine. All the ones that broke decades ago get none of your attention. This is survivorship bias. Reliability of products like fridges has gone up immensely over the last 50 years.
I'm not sure about the 1960s, but generally all appliances have gotten quite a bit cheaper and had less durability and repairability since the eighties. There was a step change in the late nineties both in price and quality when production moved to China.
That might be true. But I don't think there will be ANY of the model of fridge I had running at 20 years old. Survivorship bias can't account for plastic that crumbles from being heat-cycled.
On the bright side, a shelf bracket is a pretty cheap wear item to replace. Can be 3d printed. It's not like any of the electronics went bad.
If I had a 3D printer, yes. But like most people, I don't have a 3d printer. $200-$1200 + a few days of learning trial and error is starting to get into the price range of just buying a new fridge.
Or you can hack it with Sugru: <https://sugru.com/what-is-sugru>. Not necessarily the best for aesthetics, unless you're a clay sculptor hobbyist or something, but it sticks tight to almost everything. Though as per the website: "Sugru does not bond to oily plastics like polypropylene, polyethylene or Teflon."
I've used it for all kinds of things. I tend to reinforce it if it's load-bearing (eg I made a bracket for my router under my desk, but molded the Sugru around a screw that I put in the desk). Each pack is very small, so it'll only be enough for corners or wrapping around wires very close to the end or whatever.
I've used it for all kinds of things. I tend to reinforce it if it's load-bearing (eg I made a bracket for my router under my desk, but molded the Sugru around a screw that I put in the desk). Each pack is very small, so it'll only be enough for corners or wrapping around wires very close to the end or whatever.
I’ve not had good luck with sugru. I’ve used it to repair a couple cables that started fraying near one end… the weird lump of sugru covered where i put it, but didn’t stop the fraying - bought me maybe another couple months of use.
Are there quality new fridges? Are Subzero fridges quality?
I’ve heard they’re becoming less reliable than they used to be
Its weird that noone really deeply analyzes this. Munro started a teardown, but it ended somewhat abruptly and with only fairly surface level analysis, IMO.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAYj6m9QtDU&t=1s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAYj6m9QtDU&t=1s
I've been saying the same for a while, but there are definitely some strange things going on with product quality and replacement cost.
Eg, my microwave has a vent cover on the top that tends to crack and fall off after less than 3 years. They company wants >$90 for the lightweight, simple plastic part.
I have a fridge with a long lasting LED light. The proprietary board that its mounted to failed after less than 4 years.
We've somehow managed to replace short lasting components (filament bulbs) with components that last longer (led) but fail in more costly ways. Somehow the manufacturer gets away with blaming laws (incandescent bulbs were banned, we say!) while also profiting from building things too cheaply.
Eg, my microwave has a vent cover on the top that tends to crack and fall off after less than 3 years. They company wants >$90 for the lightweight, simple plastic part.
I have a fridge with a long lasting LED light. The proprietary board that its mounted to failed after less than 4 years.
We've somehow managed to replace short lasting components (filament bulbs) with components that last longer (led) but fail in more costly ways. Somehow the manufacturer gets away with blaming laws (incandescent bulbs were banned, we say!) while also profiting from building things too cheaply.
In kitchen stuff, licensing out brand names is really bad with kitchen aid. Their mixers are a known quantity but by anything else and you’re getting subpar quality at inflated prices.
For tools, it’s not only brand licensing but mass consolidation. Brands are used similar to car manufacturers.
https://www.protoolreviews.com/power-tool-manufacturers-who-...
Milwaukee Ryobi Rigid and Hart (found at walmart) are all the same manufacturer. I own mostly Milwaukee tool, bought something from Ryobi and had it break right away.
For tools, it’s not only brand licensing but mass consolidation. Brands are used similar to car manufacturers.
https://www.protoolreviews.com/power-tool-manufacturers-who-...
Milwaukee Ryobi Rigid and Hart (found at walmart) are all the same manufacturer. I own mostly Milwaukee tool, bought something from Ryobi and had it break right away.
kitchenaid has also been cheapening up their mixers in recent years... the $200 mixer at costco or your department store now has a much weaker motor and plastic gears that can tend to strip over time with certain workloads (particularly the bread-mixing attachment).
(the argument is that the plastic gear serves as a "mechanical fuse" and if something's going to break it's better that it be a $2 plastic gear instead of burning up your motor, but, in the big picture, they're also weakening up the motor, etc.)
(the argument is that the plastic gear serves as a "mechanical fuse" and if something's going to break it's better that it be a $2 plastic gear instead of burning up your motor, but, in the big picture, they're also weakening up the motor, etc.)
Recent? Kitchenaid started reducing the price point of their entry level 40 years ago. Meanwhile their top end models have brushless DC motors and are as well designed as ever, and adjusted for inflation are cheaper than in the past.
Having dismantled many, the entry level kitchenaid design hasn’t changed much in the past two decades.
It turns out, and kitchenaid realized, there was a lot of money to be made by casual box cake mixers that want the appearance of a KA.
Having dismantled many, the entry level kitchenaid design hasn’t changed much in the past two decades.
It turns out, and kitchenaid realized, there was a lot of money to be made by casual box cake mixers that want the appearance of a KA.
I might be naively interpreting this, but isn't "ownership" of a brand different than manufacturing? For instance, TTI owns Milwaukee, Ryobi... etc, but if I understand correctly, they each still manufacture independently. This would be different from the car manufacturers, where the actual components put into the car are often the same between differing brands under one larger owner (Nissan and Infiniti for instance)
A salient example is GE. GE has not manufactured consumer products in decades. All of those “GE” appliances were developed and built by somebody else.
GE consumer products are made by Haier.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haier
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haier
GE Appliances designs and makes appliances, and never stopped, but they've been owned by Haier, not GE, since 2016. Sort of a subtle distinction, but it matters.
There's some debate on the level of coordination, e.g. market segmentation, sales data, some component sharing, possible factory sharing, https://toolguyd.com/milwaukee-ridgid-ryobi-coordinations/
I remember being confused how kitchenaid and competitors calculate how strong they are.
The machine has a HP rating and a Wattage, the HP was higher than the wattage when converted. So after some reading it turns out they have a special way of measuring HP. It still confuses me.
That chart is an incredible eye-opener.
I think the short answer is that brands as a legitimate thing (a method by which a given maker-of-things could distinguish its products) were a relatively recent invention in human commerce, and were exploitable on a way that only even more recently was discovered. Essentially turns out the approach has a fatal flaw and that flaw has been exposed.
I suspect that this flaw has been exploited for a long time, and I also would assert that brands have been "a thing" for a long time. A brand is just a systematic attempt by a business to develop name recognition among customers and potential customers.
> brands as a legitimate thing were a relatively recent invention in human commerce
The origins of Stella Artois can be traced to 1366 when the Den Hoorn brewery was established in Leuven, Belgium
I am sure even cavemen traded sharpened rocks and said 'this one is made by steve, he is really good, so I want more meat for it'
The origins of Stella Artois can be traced to 1366 when the Den Hoorn brewery was established in Leuven, Belgium
I am sure even cavemen traded sharpened rocks and said 'this one is made by steve, he is really good, so I want more meat for it'
Tools get another dimension of that too which can be very frustrating.
I live in the USA and I generally consider Makita (which also doesn't have any other brands or lines, it's just Makita) to be a high-quality tool brand that I'm happy to use and happy to own in the garage. I think most people would agree with that assessment as well. But the Makita tools we get here have nothing on the Makita tools that are actually available in Japan. It's like another tier entirely. I sure wish we could get all that good stuff here.
I live in the USA and I generally consider Makita (which also doesn't have any other brands or lines, it's just Makita) to be a high-quality tool brand that I'm happy to use and happy to own in the garage. I think most people would agree with that assessment as well. But the Makita tools we get here have nothing on the Makita tools that are actually available in Japan. It's like another tier entirely. I sure wish we could get all that good stuff here.
I used to think that as well, but I've seen three crosscut saws that all lost the thumb switch button, and the general build quality just doesn't seem up to what I would expect.
Craftsman never manufactured their own things, it was always contracted out. So long as DeWalt is fine with the quality and supports the product I don’t see the difference
A lot of the Made in USA Craftsman hand tools were made by Western Forge. There's usually a "WF" somewhere on the tool on those. These are generally good quality. Craftsman then moved production to China and the Western Forge plant shut down, although the company is still around.
It's not always clear these days when a tool is "Made in the USA" vs. "assembled in the USA from global components", https://www.protoolreviews.com/what-tools-are-made-in-the-us...
In this case it’s dewalt, one of the most premium high end tool brands, selling their brand recognition to porter cable, the lowest of the low end tools.
The idea that Dewalt is "one of the most premium high end tool brands" is ridiculous to anyone with even a modest understanding of tools. I wouldn't even consider Dewalt to be middle of the road when it comes to consumer hand tools, much less premium.
Premium tool brands are like Festool, Mafell, etc. Stuff that weekend warriors freak out about when they see the price tag. Dewalt just has a big marketing budget, recognizable colors, and is in every big box store.
Premium tool brands are like Festool, Mafell, etc. Stuff that weekend warriors freak out about when they see the price tag. Dewalt just has a big marketing budget, recognizable colors, and is in every big box store.
Interesting, I use my dad's old Porter Cable Router from the 80's, and its rock solid (they also owned Delta). Looks like in 2004 they were bought by Black and Decker.
Ironically, another manufacturer that used to make great tools but went 'consumer'. I got to use an old +20yr B&D circular saw not long ago and it was still fantastic
IMO dewalt is a mod tier tool brand with stuff like festool, powermatic, laguna and others being more premium high end
Porter Cable actually used to be great and dewalt was iffy, ive never heard anyone consider Dewalt to be premium though... Either way they sell the same tools now in just different colors, like their mid-size trim router is exactly the same but in Dewalt, PC or (i forget the third brand i saw, same router though) colors
I usually use the AK-47 as an example for Dewalt -- they use such sloppy bearings and construction there isnt much to wear out that it doesnt work. Its not well built, just sloppy enough to take a beating
I usually use the AK-47 as an example for Dewalt -- they use such sloppy bearings and construction there isnt much to wear out that it doesnt work. Its not well built, just sloppy enough to take a beating
The two dewalt impact drills which have had their chuck become detached from the motor under light work loads and the half dozen Porter Cable tools which I've used reliably on almost every DIY project for the last 10 years, all of which are sitting in my garage, suggest otherwise.
DeWalt has great ergonomics though.
DeWalt has great ergonomics though.
Craftsman used to have a fantastic return policy
Not for power tools though. Only for hand tools.
Before Sears imploded, the power tools were mostly made by Black and Decker, which owns DeWalt but also makes a lot of low-end crap that ended up in the Craftsman line. I'm not sure who makes them now.
Before Sears imploded, the power tools were mostly made by Black and Decker, which owns DeWalt but also makes a lot of low-end crap that ended up in the Craftsman line. I'm not sure who makes them now.
Sears sold the Craftsman name just recently for nearly a billion dollars. Stanley Black and Decker purchased it. Very confusing, because the agreement allows for both to use the name for a time...so your Sears Craftsman power tools aren't compatible with the Lowes ones.
I agree that often brands take advantage of their goodwill and take white label products and brand them as their own.
One very popular product was subcompact cars in the '80s when GM, Ford, etc., needed something to offer in a segment they had no expertise in or manufacturing capacity, so they had third string Japanese and S Korean MFs pump out stuff and rebadge them as their own. Often these rebranded Daihatsus, Ssanyang, etc., sucked... but so did Chevy and GM in many respects anyway.
That said, if a brand is quality conscious and can filter on our behalf, I don't see the problem. A perfect example is Apple. They have someone MFG their designs to spec and we receive a quality product.
One very popular product was subcompact cars in the '80s when GM, Ford, etc., needed something to offer in a segment they had no expertise in or manufacturing capacity, so they had third string Japanese and S Korean MFs pump out stuff and rebadge them as their own. Often these rebranded Daihatsus, Ssanyang, etc., sucked... but so did Chevy and GM in many respects anyway.
That said, if a brand is quality conscious and can filter on our behalf, I don't see the problem. A perfect example is Apple. They have someone MFG their designs to spec and we receive a quality product.
It took me a few tries to read “MFs” as “manufacturers”.
Heh, yeah, I see now where MFs might read as MFers!
Could be as simple as metric gaming? Brands where a good metric, but of course, once we decided that, they were not anymore.
An entertaining aspect of this is in whiskey, where, for instance, Wild Turkey makes one of the more successful and appreciated bourbons on the market, but also has a very popular rye, which they don't distill: Wild Turkey Rye is a relabeled MGPI whiskey. A surprising number of whiskeys are MGPI.
Because bourbon takes (something like) ten years to "age" if you want to start a bourbon distillery you either have money to run ten years with no product, or you white label something else for ten years until you get your own going.
So many industries are like this, just out of sight of the average customer, it's hilarious.
So many industries are like this, just out of sight of the average customer, it's hilarious.
Worse than that, in KY you have to pay taxes on the whiskey as it ages. MGP is located in Indiana so does not face that tax.
talk about taxing unrealized gains
Whiskey also evaporates while it ages but the tax is on the full barrel.
It is similar to rent seeking behavior: create a super high quality product with a strong brand name. Then once it gets popular, switch to a cheap product but keep the same brand name. Keep price the same, lower your costs, get more $$.
Part of the problem is also that knock off manufacturing is now quick and pretty good. Snap-On initially had a huge lead on the market because (a) they invented something new and (b) nobody could quickly replicate what they had. Now if they come out with a new type of wrench within a year others will copy the design at a fraction of the cost and it will be almost as good. In most cases it will be way better value for the money.
Part of the problem is also that knock off manufacturing is now quick and pretty good. Snap-On initially had a huge lead on the market because (a) they invented something new and (b) nobody could quickly replicate what they had. Now if they come out with a new type of wrench within a year others will copy the design at a fraction of the cost and it will be almost as good. In most cases it will be way better value for the money.
It started many decades ago, when low-rent importers and manufacturers bought the rights to out-of-business brand names, then started slapping them on all kinds of cheap junk and advertising them on TV. Even though it had its own store at the Mall of America, "As Seen On TV" is a red flag, not a badge of honor.
Think Crosley record players, or different anti-itch powders, and such.
Some managed to be just-good-enough to crawl back into becoming a real brand with real manufacturing. But some remained just junk, only to disappear again.
Or, in other cases, the manufacturer of cheap Chinese junk will contract with a well-known American brand to put their brand on the junk and offer it as a discount to the American company's existing customers. Readers' Digest clock radios is a good example.
Looking through Goodwill will reveal dozens of these brands, and their junk just before it hits the landfill.
Think Crosley record players, or different anti-itch powders, and such.
Some managed to be just-good-enough to crawl back into becoming a real brand with real manufacturing. But some remained just junk, only to disappear again.
Or, in other cases, the manufacturer of cheap Chinese junk will contract with a well-known American brand to put their brand on the junk and offer it as a discount to the American company's existing customers. Readers' Digest clock radios is a good example.
Looking through Goodwill will reveal dozens of these brands, and their junk just before it hits the landfill.
https://www.importyeti.com/supplier/suzhou-alton-electrical-...
Here is the likely chinese manufacturer
Here is the likely chinese manufacturer
What went wrong? What do you mean. The market is operating as intended, it just found yet another way to extract profit from consumers. This time by misleading them about the quality of a product by leveraging a known brand.
I believe the OP means what went wrong for consumers.
The market is a system for profit maximization system not consumer benefit.
This happens all the time. Quaker State for example is a marketing company they don’t manufacture a drop of oil.
Almost all car batteries in North America are made by two companies: Exide, or Johnson Controls.
furthermore, whether its Alton or Acme Industries it's all the same made in China.
Huh? There is huge variability between factories. It’s not like a country of a billion plus people is doing the same quality work throughout…
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I don't get it. It seems that some context is missing. Is this parody? Why is this the top story on HN?
Why do I see SQL at the bottom of the highly-touted wet/dry search page?
> SELECT COUNT(DISTINCT vacid) FROM vac ;
http://wet-dry-vac.com
Why do I see SQL at the bottom of the highly-touted wet/dry search page?
> SELECT COUNT(DISTINCT vacid) FROM vac ;
http://wet-dry-vac.com
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URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSN7PXwn1yU
Summary: SHOP VACS TESTED: Ridgid, Craftsman, Shop Vac, Bauer, DeWalt, Hart, and Stanley tested for horsepower, air speed, suction and noise level. Testing also included speed of vacuuming 5 gallons of water and 50 pounds of sand. Total water holding capacity also measured for each brand. Finally, each brand participated in a "grudge" match when the suction hoses were joined together.