Ask HN: Does anyone else have anxiety during standup?
42 comments
A previous job was like this, and I am a very uneven worker - sometimes I do a lot when I'm in the flow, sometimes I hardly do anything (despite wanting to).
On those days when I hadn't done much, my manager, the product manager, and the project manager, would all imply pretty strongly I hadn't done enough at the next standup, and ask why I hadn't done more, and so on. Pretty stressful.
What I started to do was, when I had a good day, hold some work back. I'd only "git push" some of the work I'd done. Only move some of the tickets along. At standup I'd just mention the first half of the work. That way when a day inevitably came along when I hadn't done much, I could claim to have "done" the second half of the work I'd previously done.
My relationship with the various managers greatly improved.
I don't know if this way of working was really beneficial to the company, but it was the company that was setting up my incentive structure this way, I was simply responding to it. I got the same amount of work done in total anyway so I figured it didn't really matter too much morally.
On those days when I hadn't done much, my manager, the product manager, and the project manager, would all imply pretty strongly I hadn't done enough at the next standup, and ask why I hadn't done more, and so on. Pretty stressful.
What I started to do was, when I had a good day, hold some work back. I'd only "git push" some of the work I'd done. Only move some of the tickets along. At standup I'd just mention the first half of the work. That way when a day inevitably came along when I hadn't done much, I could claim to have "done" the second half of the work I'd previously done.
My relationship with the various managers greatly improved.
I don't know if this way of working was really beneficial to the company, but it was the company that was setting up my incentive structure this way, I was simply responding to it. I got the same amount of work done in total anyway so I figured it didn't really matter too much morally.
I have also used this strategy with great success.
If there is micro-management, where people are looking at numbers and times of commits or ticket updates or whatever instead of outcomes and impact, it only makes sense to give them what they (think they) want.
In terms of standup updates, if the audience wants some 5 minute summary, it can be given, it doesn't need to be reflective of the reality of the past 24 hours, it could include some content saved up from previous days, etc.
If there is micro-management, where people are looking at numbers and times of commits or ticket updates or whatever instead of outcomes and impact, it only makes sense to give them what they (think they) want.
In terms of standup updates, if the audience wants some 5 minute summary, it can be given, it doesn't need to be reflective of the reality of the past 24 hours, it could include some content saved up from previous days, etc.
this is the way, surprised others don't use this. From working in the corporate world, 60% of the job is just keeping a certain kind of appearance up.
Yeah. But man what a shit way to get by in life.
well, there are worse ways to get by in life. After many years of software engineering, i no longer find the work i do that challenging or meaningful, it is just something to do to pay the bills.
"an uneven worker" sums me up nicely.
This is the point of standup. Give the worker anxiety and pressure him to do more work. During my years and years of standup, I never learned anything useful and I doubt anyone else did either.
The good news is that management generally doesn't understand the low level details, so you can project confidence while using technical jargon to make them think you are far more productive than is the reality. It's really just a performance.
The good news is that management generally doesn't understand the low level details, so you can project confidence while using technical jargon to make them think you are far more productive than is the reality. It's really just a performance.
I can't vote this high enough, this is exactly my thinking
About ever other standuo one of us will ask to sidebar after with someone to help them with an issue they brought up. If people pay attention and focus on pragmatism it can be incredibly effective. We do three per week
This anxiety is very common. In the best, most blameless organizational cultures, team members are allowed to say "I didn't get much done yesterday" on an occasional basis and are forgiven for it - but I realize that reality isn't often like that.
In reality, sometimes you have to just BS things, as others have suggested, by holding some work back from your big flow-state pushes, or by dithering around with words like "I looked into...". It sounds like your standups are more about making management feel better than they are about engineers removing obstacles from each other. That's a hard problem to solve and probably outside the scope of what you can affect. Just do the best you can to survive and be successful in the situation you're in.
If I had any advice to give, it's to learn from how harmful and toxic this pattern is, and as you move up into seniority and management, make efforts to not repeat this mistake. Standup should be a time to discuss how the TEAM is making progress on delivering value to customers, not a time to compare individual efforts against each other. Managers should be involved enough in the lives of their teams to be able to make disciplinary or promotional calls for individual contributors without standup being where they receive that signal.
In reality, sometimes you have to just BS things, as others have suggested, by holding some work back from your big flow-state pushes, or by dithering around with words like "I looked into...". It sounds like your standups are more about making management feel better than they are about engineers removing obstacles from each other. That's a hard problem to solve and probably outside the scope of what you can affect. Just do the best you can to survive and be successful in the situation you're in.
If I had any advice to give, it's to learn from how harmful and toxic this pattern is, and as you move up into seniority and management, make efforts to not repeat this mistake. Standup should be a time to discuss how the TEAM is making progress on delivering value to customers, not a time to compare individual efforts against each other. Managers should be involved enough in the lives of their teams to be able to make disciplinary or promotional calls for individual contributors without standup being where they receive that signal.
Note that according to Scrum-in-theory the managers shouldn't even be at the daily standup. The entire purpose is coordination between the developers. You say "I am working on X" so that people who know or do something relevant to X are reminded to tell you about it (after the standup). Also, once in a while two people accidentally start working on the same thing (maybe the first one forgets to assign the ticket to themselves), and at the standup this becomes obvious.
However, Scrum-in-practice is usually something quite different.
However, Scrum-in-practice is usually something quite different.
Yes, and I think it is because it is about being evaluated (inevitably). Standups should be about teammates discussing tasks among each other, this is less pressure and creates more of a helpful atmosphere. However in most teams/companies I've been in, it just feels like devs have to spoon feed managers on the status. Just saying it would be nice to focus on work and have leaders be more proactive in understanding what is going on instead of having these expectations that you will explain everything perfectly while they evaluate your performance.
I was in a similar situation, and have a life-long history of panic attacks. I would have them during stand-ups, which was absolute hell. I went on to face this, becoming a public speaker (technically speaking) and also a professional skydiver and occasional BASE jumper.
Things that help me in general are cardio, weightlifting, mindfulness exercises and meditation. Knowing I can walk away from a situation and be ok financially is huge.
Things that helped me specifically with daily stand-ups:
1. Preparing questions. Asking a probing question puts the pressure on the person that you feel is evaluating you. If you have a blocker, begin with asking the other engineer if they have completed that dependency. Always have a question in the chamber. Be careful not to throw others under the bus, especially if they are anxious or junior. The best questions are directed at the higher ups. After a year I learned that the executives were nervous about my questions and joked about my reputation as a "hard-hitter". That really helped me to feel more in control. Never put the company in a bad light with your phrasing.
2. Volunteer. Being third in line is panic inducing. Combat this by jumping the gun. I was often shocked to hear myself say "I'll go first" or "I'll start". My heart rate would jump a little but my brain didn't even have time to sort out my self-trickery before. The relief you feel after doing this is incredible. Also, there's something inherently calming about deciding to speak, rather than being expected to.
3. Conversational style. Providing an update can be terrifying. Having a casual conversation is [hopefully] not. Make it a back-and-forth. Not all of your questions need to be interrogations, simply passing the buck with a softball like "Can you clarify..." or "I'm thinking of doing this, what's your opinion?" make all the difference.
Things that help me in general are cardio, weightlifting, mindfulness exercises and meditation. Knowing I can walk away from a situation and be ok financially is huge.
Things that helped me specifically with daily stand-ups:
1. Preparing questions. Asking a probing question puts the pressure on the person that you feel is evaluating you. If you have a blocker, begin with asking the other engineer if they have completed that dependency. Always have a question in the chamber. Be careful not to throw others under the bus, especially if they are anxious or junior. The best questions are directed at the higher ups. After a year I learned that the executives were nervous about my questions and joked about my reputation as a "hard-hitter". That really helped me to feel more in control. Never put the company in a bad light with your phrasing.
2. Volunteer. Being third in line is panic inducing. Combat this by jumping the gun. I was often shocked to hear myself say "I'll go first" or "I'll start". My heart rate would jump a little but my brain didn't even have time to sort out my self-trickery before. The relief you feel after doing this is incredible. Also, there's something inherently calming about deciding to speak, rather than being expected to.
3. Conversational style. Providing an update can be terrifying. Having a casual conversation is [hopefully] not. Make it a back-and-forth. Not all of your questions need to be interrogations, simply passing the buck with a softball like "Can you clarify..." or "I'm thinking of doing this, what's your opinion?" make all the difference.
Standups are supposed to be uncomfortable for everyone which is where they got their name: they are supposed to be 5-10 minute tops run throughs where everyone is standing to remind them to not get too comfortable or talk too long.
The problem may not be entirely you: 30 minutes each sounds like at least some some of your coworkers in those meetings are far too "comfortable" and taking too much time giving too many details that don't matter to what the standup is supposed to get across. (It's not supposed to be a list of all the work you've done, but to find places where you can cross-cut: work you did that may help someone else but neither of you realize it; problems you have that maybe someone else solved earlier.)
The other indication that there may be process breakdowns around you outside of what standup is supposed to mean is that standups were originally supposed to be only engineering (in theory). A "product standup" with directors, executives, and managers doesn't sound at all like what a standup is supposed to be, to me, it sounds like a daily micro-management checkin meeting.
You probably don't have any power to fix a broken process, but if it gives you some small comfort, it may not be entirely just you in this case. Your meetings may be asking more of you than they are supposed to be and of course that adds additional anxiety and stress.
The problem may not be entirely you: 30 minutes each sounds like at least some some of your coworkers in those meetings are far too "comfortable" and taking too much time giving too many details that don't matter to what the standup is supposed to get across. (It's not supposed to be a list of all the work you've done, but to find places where you can cross-cut: work you did that may help someone else but neither of you realize it; problems you have that maybe someone else solved earlier.)
The other indication that there may be process breakdowns around you outside of what standup is supposed to mean is that standups were originally supposed to be only engineering (in theory). A "product standup" with directors, executives, and managers doesn't sound at all like what a standup is supposed to be, to me, it sounds like a daily micro-management checkin meeting.
You probably don't have any power to fix a broken process, but if it gives you some small comfort, it may not be entirely just you in this case. Your meetings may be asking more of you than they are supposed to be and of course that adds additional anxiety and stress.
I absolutely hate daily standups. I switched jobs to a company that holds one "standup" a week, and my stress has dropped significantly and my productivity has increased. Daily standups were draining my energy much more than I realized at the time.
Two 30m standups in a day aren’t really standups. That’s starting your day with an hour of meetings. Which is probably partly responsible for killing the momentum you need to get through your work.
You’re anxiety is likely because you don’t feel safe sharing the amount of progress you did or didn’t make. Unless your working on the most basic boring stuff, you’re not going to have the same rate of progress—at least not in a manner that is easily digestible in a standup.
I’ve seen this play out in so many teams over the last decade. A standup shouldn’t be a daily grilling on progress by higher-ups. If you’re team is full of adults and professionals, you don’t need hurrying along.
IMHO A standup over 15m means the team is too big, or you’re all sharing too much.
The most useful thing I’ve found standups do is surface blockers to the whole team, as there is often someone who can help that you might not expect.
If you need to go deep into anything, do it after the standup so others can leave.
You’re anxiety is likely because you don’t feel safe sharing the amount of progress you did or didn’t make. Unless your working on the most basic boring stuff, you’re not going to have the same rate of progress—at least not in a manner that is easily digestible in a standup.
I’ve seen this play out in so many teams over the last decade. A standup shouldn’t be a daily grilling on progress by higher-ups. If you’re team is full of adults and professionals, you don’t need hurrying along.
IMHO A standup over 15m means the team is too big, or you’re all sharing too much.
The most useful thing I’ve found standups do is surface blockers to the whole team, as there is often someone who can help that you might not expect.
If you need to go deep into anything, do it after the standup so others can leave.
Not really advice, just sympathies from me - having to do this twice a day, every day is a pain. 2-3 standups a week is a sweet spot imo. Doing it every day is a waste of time and it gives everyone an incentive to talk about things that are irrelevant which makes the whole thing even more of a waste of time. So maybe that's the advice - learn to become comfortable with talking about insignificant crap because that's the incentive they're giving you.
Yes, when I haven't done much. Like a lot of people my productivity fluctuates throughout any given week.
2 stand ups per day is brutal! I would fight against that for the simple reason that it is an interruption to my and others work flow and do you really need to know what has happened twice within 8 hours? This just sounds like micromanagement.
Your stand up sounds whack - it's supposed to be just the team, for the team. Then you can use jargon that the team will understand. Directors and Execs would have a hard time following. Surely this is why we have transparent scrum/kanban boards for these people.
Your work's ways of working really riles me up, man!
2 stand ups per day is brutal! I would fight against that for the simple reason that it is an interruption to my and others work flow and do you really need to know what has happened twice within 8 hours? This just sounds like micromanagement.
Your stand up sounds whack - it's supposed to be just the team, for the team. Then you can use jargon that the team will understand. Directors and Execs would have a hard time following. Surely this is why we have transparent scrum/kanban boards for these people.
Your work's ways of working really riles me up, man!
I usually write what I'm going to say before the meeting on a OneNote. It helps a lot, just to be able to read off the text, which works on online meeting/standup. Also to help come up with something to say, if you don't have a lot to say, is to make a note of anything interesting that you run throughout the day, like mentioning about a bug you found (don't go into detail, just mention you found a minor bug you had to fix), or a small struggle you had with getting the library to compile, etc. No one is going to question the value you deliver based on the standup... hopefully.
I would suggest you try to distill a framework for your updates based on updates by your colleagues you find informative, to the point, ...
Something like: I achieved [this] by doing [that] which leads to [value/progress].
On the other hand, I am a product manager and I do not need that much technical detail during standups from engineers - I am mainly interested in learning if the task is progressing according to original plan and if not, how do we need to adjust the sprint plan.
Standups should be done standing up so that people are annoyed if they run long so being brief is a plus in my eyes.
Something like: I achieved [this] by doing [that] which leads to [value/progress].
On the other hand, I am a product manager and I do not need that much technical detail during standups from engineers - I am mainly interested in learning if the task is progressing according to original plan and if not, how do we need to adjust the sprint plan.
Standups should be done standing up so that people are annoyed if they run long so being brief is a plus in my eyes.
I have to say, the only feeling I experience during standups like these is an incredible sense of boredom.
Natural, since this agile crap is a whip for the code monkey slaves. Enjoy the absurdity.
Especially in enterprise teams, it is a daily interrogation just for management to keep tabs on your performance. I'm fine meeting and giving status updates every few days, but honestly not every single day
I'm a PM and I have anxiety during standups. I think it mostly stems from the fact that I have perpetual anxiety that I've forgotten something that someone needed from me and am holding them up. (Ironically, or perhaps very logically, because of this anxiety I virtually never forget anything and block anyone because I have a detailed and redundant note-taking system that makes sure I do everything I need to.)
So yeah, I think it's just common to have some anxiety when you're up in front of your peers doing anything at work.
As for the length of your updates, let's just be clear that you're the one doing it right and everyone else is doing it wrong. There's cultural variance in how standups work, but generally the correct thing is that you get through the basic update quickly and then get into details as needed with the appropriate subset of people once updates are done. My standups right now are running long because of 1-2 people who just go on for too long or start trying to talking through solutions during their updates, so I'm having to walk the line between not wanting to nag every day but also making sure we're keeping the time under control.
So yeah, I think it's just common to have some anxiety when you're up in front of your peers doing anything at work.
As for the length of your updates, let's just be clear that you're the one doing it right and everyone else is doing it wrong. There's cultural variance in how standups work, but generally the correct thing is that you get through the basic update quickly and then get into details as needed with the appropriate subset of people once updates are done. My standups right now are running long because of 1-2 people who just go on for too long or start trying to talking through solutions during their updates, so I'm having to walk the line between not wanting to nag every day but also making sure we're keeping the time under control.
30 min standups? That gives me anxiety just reading that. Unless there’s a legit reason standup should be like five min tops.
What’s blocking you?
Anything else, including what you’re working on, should just go in slack or better yet if you have a B tier or better manager, should be visible on a board somewhere for them and your team to see.
What’s blocking you?
Anything else, including what you’re working on, should just go in slack or better yet if you have a B tier or better manager, should be visible on a board somewhere for them and your team to see.
Yeah, we have 30 minute standups, and they often overrun. We don't, on the other hand, have grooming or estimation sessions or retros. The result is that the same issues plague us each sprint, not least badly defined stories ending up in the sprint.
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Especially in bigger companies, a part of your job isn't to necessarily be productive all of the time, but to have the appearance of productivity so your managers can report to their managers that everything is going at maximum efficiency. Devote some time every week to come up with a pile of bullet points of potential accomplishments/tasks you did so you always have something irrefutable to say to cover your ass. Always have some bullet points in reserve you're ready to speak about in a pinch.
I think meeting occasionally to discuss a project is great, but anything non-trivial in technology takes days or weeks or longer, not hours. 2 standups a day is highly counterproductive. Have you talked with your fellow engineers about this?
I think meeting occasionally to discuss a project is great, but anything non-trivial in technology takes days or weeks or longer, not hours. 2 standups a day is highly counterproductive. Have you talked with your fellow engineers about this?
For the record, the 100% correct answer to your name being called in standup is, "I am working on the task which is In Development. It will be delivered to the QA team on time. No blockers."
You are overthinking it. Unless someone has a problem with you, they most likely don't notice how long your take if you are quick. They also notice if others speak too long, whether they say something or not. If you are getting your work done, they most likely happy you a brief with your update.
The biggest things people should be looking for are where you are struggling as evidenced by you working on the same things too many days in a row (too many days in a row is a variable) or you are asking for help, i.e. what your blockers or issues are.
The biggest things people should be looking for are where you are struggling as evidenced by you working on the same things too many days in a row (too many days in a row is a variable) or you are asking for help, i.e. what your blockers or issues are.
Pre-lockdown, when standup meetings were actual meetings, I had a tough time dealing with them because of my hearing loss. Our meetings are engineer - only, led by a project manager. In the olden days they were literally people standing around a block of cubicles, talking (or mumbling) to their shoes. I got absolutely nothing out of them, couldn't hear a thing. When I told my manager that, his response was "too bad, attend anyway". The meetings are now virtual, and work much, much better for me.
I created this github project a while back to help with this exact issue. I shared it with the org when I left - not something I would normally do but my team definitely needed the laugh.
It will automatically reassign any jiras assigned to you to a random teammate.
It's named after a ridiculous email management sent where they needed all hands on deck (i.e. weekends) to get a project done.
https://github.com/jmathai/all-hands-on-deck
It will automatically reassign any jiras assigned to you to a random teammate.
It's named after a ridiculous email management sent where they needed all hands on deck (i.e. weekends) to get a project done.
https://github.com/jmathai/all-hands-on-deck
Your company and management are running "standups" (in the agile sense) incorrectly. It should be you talking to other engineers.. not a status update.
Maybe you are overthinking it. Do you have a good relationship with your manager? Ask for their advice and for feedback.
Length and detail of updates in standup isn't a good metric for you to judge your value. Direct feedback is better, and any company worth their salt will get that feedback to you in a timely manner.
If you are making an honest and sincere effort, you have no need to be anxious. But be proactive about asking for feedback and support when you need it.
Length and detail of updates in standup isn't a good metric for you to judge your value. Direct feedback is better, and any company worth their salt will get that feedback to you in a timely manner.
If you are making an honest and sincere effort, you have no need to be anxious. But be proactive about asking for feedback and support when you need it.
You're overthinking for sure, but I do the same thing. I try to write my update in a notebook every day, but especially when I'm feeling anxious.
I think all of the workarounds proposed here are just more evidence of why standups are stupid.
Laser tag helped me with my social anxiety. Translating adrenaline spikes into good vs bad really helped.
i write out my updates as a way of planning my own day and taking stock of the previous, i consider it more of an exercise for myself than anyone else. I dont get nervous unless i got nothing done and have no good reason for why (which almost never happens).
chances are most of the rest of the standup are focused on themselves anyway
chances are most of the rest of the standup are focused on themselves anyway
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Also twice a day. It's OK for me as I just repeat what I did for the day.
I’m having trouble coming up with meaningful updates and constantly question if im doing enough work or providing enough value compared to my coworkers - even if im delivering the work being asked. Sometimes my updates are very brief but my coworkers are quite long and detailed and I feel the team may judge me for the amount of work im doing. It feels like an added stress on top of the actual work and takes up energy in the day.
How do you deal with the stress of standup anxiety? Am I just overthinking?