Ask HN: Teaching kids how to think?
141 comments
I had the pleasure to spend a few years with an incredibly creative family, in all domains (family unit consisted of nobel prize winner, renowned academics, award winning authors, artists), and the one thing which always stood out to me was how they had such a deep culture of rewarding curiosity, thinking, and exploration.
I have no idea how conscious it was on the family's part, but it seemed like everyone in that family ALWAYS had a creative project that they were thinking about, talking about, and was celebrated by all in the family. It could be the dad talking about some data he was cleaning, or the younger kids about some new comic character they were developing, etc. It was clear that there was absolutely NO judgement as to what everyone's endeavor was, but that being a creative person and exploring and thinking was table stakes to being part of that family.
I don't know what the answer is, but I think if you manage to cultivate that kind of culture in your household, everything else will come easier, because above all, it seemed like they all had JOY in doing all of this. I could easily see how it could become a chore and even a burden, but somehow those parents really managed to lose sight of having everyone see thinking and exploring as primarily a fun thing to do, and it seems to have stuck.
I have no idea how conscious it was on the family's part, but it seemed like everyone in that family ALWAYS had a creative project that they were thinking about, talking about, and was celebrated by all in the family. It could be the dad talking about some data he was cleaning, or the younger kids about some new comic character they were developing, etc. It was clear that there was absolutely NO judgement as to what everyone's endeavor was, but that being a creative person and exploring and thinking was table stakes to being part of that family.
I don't know what the answer is, but I think if you manage to cultivate that kind of culture in your household, everything else will come easier, because above all, it seemed like they all had JOY in doing all of this. I could easily see how it could become a chore and even a burden, but somehow those parents really managed to lose sight of having everyone see thinking and exploring as primarily a fun thing to do, and it seems to have stuck.
In my experience (raising my own children and being engaged with a bunch of parents at the same stage of child rearing) I observed that all of the children were very aware that there were things they didn't know. What is more they wanted to know things and that desire expressed itself as questions and curiosity.
As a family we have had two activities that have really bound us together, one is my wife's insistence that we always had dinner together, and camping. We also had a used copy of the World Book encyclopedia in a bookshelf near the dinner table, as a series of the Time-Life books on various topics, as well as various popular desktop references like the Scientific American Science Desk Reference.
At dinner we would talk about things. All sorts of things. And when we wanted details of a thing we would look it up in the encyclopedia and read aloud from it to share that knowledge. Anything could trigger a wide ranging conversation, from why to police officers give people tickets to people crossing the street to why are there parrots living in Sunnyvale, to how do cellular phones work. And model both learning new things as well has how to find things in available sources. We are fortunate to live within walking distance of the library so the kids could check out a wide variety of books.
My wife would often "auction off" the last tasty thing (generally one of her rolls which are super yummy) with an open ended question, best answer wins the treat.
Camping was sort of like dinner++ in that there are things to do while camping, like hiking and fishing and whittling different shapes out of sticks, but there was also a lot of time to just talk about things without the distraction of phones or computers or day to day things.
All of those things to feed curiosity, provide the time to explore the questions and answers, and try to understand things about the world around us.
For our family this worked out well. I don't know if it would work for every family of course. Feeding curiosity is something my parents did and I simply modeled it to my children.
As a family we have had two activities that have really bound us together, one is my wife's insistence that we always had dinner together, and camping. We also had a used copy of the World Book encyclopedia in a bookshelf near the dinner table, as a series of the Time-Life books on various topics, as well as various popular desktop references like the Scientific American Science Desk Reference.
At dinner we would talk about things. All sorts of things. And when we wanted details of a thing we would look it up in the encyclopedia and read aloud from it to share that knowledge. Anything could trigger a wide ranging conversation, from why to police officers give people tickets to people crossing the street to why are there parrots living in Sunnyvale, to how do cellular phones work. And model both learning new things as well has how to find things in available sources. We are fortunate to live within walking distance of the library so the kids could check out a wide variety of books.
My wife would often "auction off" the last tasty thing (generally one of her rolls which are super yummy) with an open ended question, best answer wins the treat.
Camping was sort of like dinner++ in that there are things to do while camping, like hiking and fishing and whittling different shapes out of sticks, but there was also a lot of time to just talk about things without the distraction of phones or computers or day to day things.
All of those things to feed curiosity, provide the time to explore the questions and answers, and try to understand things about the world around us.
For our family this worked out well. I don't know if it would work for every family of course. Feeding curiosity is something my parents did and I simply modeled it to my children.
This sounds wholesome and nice. How often do you camp, and approximatly how far do you walk?
At the peak we were camping at least once a month. We opted to home school our kids for the elementary - middle school years (they went to public high school) and that allowed us some freedoms like spending a week in Yellowstone working on geology lessons, biology (wildlife) lessons, as well as general life lessons. I am extremely grateful we had a chance to do that.
Walking is something I started doing when I began focusing on my health and where I'd be if I didn't do something. These days I walk about 7 - 8 miles a day but being semi-retired helps there. Another friend of mine and I found we can spend our time walking and talking on conference calls very effectively to 'double use' the time.
Walking is something I started doing when I began focusing on my health and where I'd be if I didn't do something. These days I walk about 7 - 8 miles a day but being semi-retired helps there. Another friend of mine and I found we can spend our time walking and talking on conference calls very effectively to 'double use' the time.
If the kids were indeed happy and were go-getters, then it appears the parents have raised their kids to take control of what they want to do instead of the other way around.
I just started reading a book that talked about that, called "The self-driven child", and the main message of what the book is trying to say is, give your kids "control". Instead of telling them to do this or that, provide them choices and let them decide for themselves. And let them feel confident and not worry about failing.
Honestly, I'm still going through the book and curious to see how we can apply to our kids.
I just started reading a book that talked about that, called "The self-driven child", and the main message of what the book is trying to say is, give your kids "control". Instead of telling them to do this or that, provide them choices and let them decide for themselves. And let them feel confident and not worry about failing.
Honestly, I'm still going through the book and curious to see how we can apply to our kids.
> give your kids "control". Instead of telling them to do this or that, provide them choices and let them decide for themselves. And let them feel confident and not worry about failing.
This is great, but the _last part_ is so important. A lot of parents try to follow this path, but they end up providing the kids only with false choices. Think "do you want to do your chores or play outside?" where the only answer the parent will actually accept is "do your chores". This is ultimately still parents telling their kids what to do, but framed as though the parents were _helping_ the kids. Children faced with these sorts of questions can grow up always seeking validation, always trying to pick "the right answer" -- leading to failure avoidance, lack of confidence, etc. This can lead to an adult who cannot make choices for themselves (everyone knows people who are always paralyzed by decision-making). Works great for training kids to do well in school, though, since school follows a similar pattern of always having one "correct" answer...
This is great, but the _last part_ is so important. A lot of parents try to follow this path, but they end up providing the kids only with false choices. Think "do you want to do your chores or play outside?" where the only answer the parent will actually accept is "do your chores". This is ultimately still parents telling their kids what to do, but framed as though the parents were _helping_ the kids. Children faced with these sorts of questions can grow up always seeking validation, always trying to pick "the right answer" -- leading to failure avoidance, lack of confidence, etc. This can lead to an adult who cannot make choices for themselves (everyone knows people who are always paralyzed by decision-making). Works great for training kids to do well in school, though, since school follows a similar pattern of always having one "correct" answer...
i did this (gave control) with my rescued dog, who was 3 when i got her 2 years ago, and exhibited a variety of induced fears and anxieties which initially meant that she was constantly looking to me for permission, assurance, and validation, because her previous pack leader(s) were apparently capricious and menacing.
out in the world, she's a relative independent creature free to explore and make decisions (it's my job to be patient and supportive, but not overly so). of course i steer her away from sitatuions that are certain to overwhelm her, exposing her to them a little at a time so she eventually learns to handle them herself without otherwise damaging regression to her self-assurance. exposure to small risks, and overcoming them, allows her to build that confidence herself, with minimal intervention on my part.
she's had a few (minor) mishaps, but she's also grown quite a bit in her self-confidence and trust (especially at home, where the relative confinement manifested in near constant anxiety behaviors before). she's learned how to approach other dogs, and the social etiquette therein, able to disengage with (usually fearful) aggressors on her own without my intervention. she's learning that not every large human is a danger to her, but that cars (and roads) are. she knows squirrels and pigeons are fun to chase, but not cats (she lives with a feline sister who's friendly and kind, but still has claws).
it's how animals develop self-sufficiency in the wild, including us if we weren't so obscured by domestication.
out in the world, she's a relative independent creature free to explore and make decisions (it's my job to be patient and supportive, but not overly so). of course i steer her away from sitatuions that are certain to overwhelm her, exposing her to them a little at a time so she eventually learns to handle them herself without otherwise damaging regression to her self-assurance. exposure to small risks, and overcoming them, allows her to build that confidence herself, with minimal intervention on my part.
she's had a few (minor) mishaps, but she's also grown quite a bit in her self-confidence and trust (especially at home, where the relative confinement manifested in near constant anxiety behaviors before). she's learned how to approach other dogs, and the social etiquette therein, able to disengage with (usually fearful) aggressors on her own without my intervention. she's learning that not every large human is a danger to her, but that cars (and roads) are. she knows squirrels and pigeons are fun to chase, but not cats (she lives with a feline sister who's friendly and kind, but still has claws).
it's how animals develop self-sufficiency in the wild, including us if we weren't so obscured by domestication.
I just watched The Royal Tenenbaums again. (It's available for free right now on Amazon Prime!)
This sounds like the fairy tale version of that. Probably doesn't make for great cinema. But I imagine a lot of people here would have loved to have grown up in a family like that.
I think I would have. Then again I asked to be excused from the honors program in elementary school because it conflicted with PE. (Begged to get back in once I hit junior high and got my first taste of an ordinary junior high English class.)
Royal Tenanbaums trailer just because I love this movie:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caMgokYWboU
This sounds like the fairy tale version of that. Probably doesn't make for great cinema. But I imagine a lot of people here would have loved to have grown up in a family like that.
I think I would have. Then again I asked to be excused from the honors program in elementary school because it conflicted with PE. (Begged to get back in once I hit junior high and got my first taste of an ordinary junior high English class.)
Royal Tenanbaums trailer just because I love this movie:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caMgokYWboU
This answer is gold. I came to respond but this answer hits the proverbial nail on the head.
You do not teach a kid to think, you provide and environment that allows them to. They will learn to do this on their own.
You do not teach a kid to think, you provide and environment that allows them to. They will learn to do this on their own.
That's valuable, thanks for sharing.
I would also be very interested in knowing more about how the parents of those noble-prize winners, renowned academics, and award winning authors raised them :)
I would also be very interested in knowing more about how the parents of those noble-prize winners, renowned academics, and award winning authors raised them :)
Wow that's lovely. How does one work around the stresses of daily life to replicate that?
Certainly beats me, but I think it helped that for both parents this WAS really their source of income (teaching and writing), and that they had gotten to the point that doing this stuff was also their way to cope with the stress of daily life. Like, with cooking, everyone was involved, or when they'd watch a movie, it was a family affair with a healthy amount of commentary or analysis. It's hard to explain, but its as if everyone was always "thinking", and they all had fun doing it.
And it may also sound almost obnoxious by just describing it this way, but it truly felt almost joyous around them. It's like they made it super fun to ask questions, think about things, explore creative endeavors...
And it may also sound almost obnoxious by just describing it this way, but it truly felt almost joyous around them. It's like they made it super fun to ask questions, think about things, explore creative endeavors...
I would have to submit that family's situation is rare. My dad did what he could to help me, bought me computers, subscriptions to Creative Computing magazine (I'm dating myself here, read early 80s) and letting me be me. My mother was not academic in any way. She was HS educated in the rural south and didn't contribute to my academics in any way. My father had a MSc in engineering and designed flight systems. He was always gone, sadly, so I had to sort out things myself.
With my own children, I read to them, have them read to me, and allow them to pursue their own interests, which as kids under 10, are admittedly not too many or technical, although they are wanting to learn Raspberry Pi stuff. I tend to walk them through their own questions, such as having them analyze potential outcomes. At the same time, I don't want to be a helicopter parent. They play outside, largely by themselves since we live in the county. I do keep on eye on them, but they tend to build things out of wood or look for frogs and lizards. We have agreed they want to build a small-scale replica of a fire lookout tower and they will help choose parts and assist in building. One of them already wants to be in Forestry and has for the last few years. I guess my answer is to allow myself to see our comings and goings as projects that we all enjoy and help them learn along the way.
With my own children, I read to them, have them read to me, and allow them to pursue their own interests, which as kids under 10, are admittedly not too many or technical, although they are wanting to learn Raspberry Pi stuff. I tend to walk them through their own questions, such as having them analyze potential outcomes. At the same time, I don't want to be a helicopter parent. They play outside, largely by themselves since we live in the county. I do keep on eye on them, but they tend to build things out of wood or look for frogs and lizards. We have agreed they want to build a small-scale replica of a fire lookout tower and they will help choose parts and assist in building. One of them already wants to be in Forestry and has for the last few years. I guess my answer is to allow myself to see our comings and goings as projects that we all enjoy and help them learn along the way.
Your parents' situation describes my marriage somewhat. I'm a software developer and (at least in my own evaluation) am an intellectually curious person. My wife is comparatively uneducated, not a good thinker and not very curious at all.
We had our first baby this year and I'm the one who does all the research and evaluation to ensure that we're taking care of our baby well and doing the things to help our child be setup for success later in life.
The problem is I work full time and she stays at home and is the primary caretaker. So I'm not there most of the time to give intellectual input.
As someone who seems to have grown up in similar circumstances, do you have any advice to make the best of this situation?
And just curious. Don't have to answer if this is too personal. How was the dynamic between your parents given the intellectual disparity? And what was your attitude and experience growing up with this disparity?
For myself, I love my wife dearly and she is a kind and loving person, but the intellectually disparity is a cause of disappointment at times. Of course, I don't express that directly. I just lower try to lower my expectations and find intellectual stimulation in other arenas.
We had our first baby this year and I'm the one who does all the research and evaluation to ensure that we're taking care of our baby well and doing the things to help our child be setup for success later in life.
The problem is I work full time and she stays at home and is the primary caretaker. So I'm not there most of the time to give intellectual input.
As someone who seems to have grown up in similar circumstances, do you have any advice to make the best of this situation?
And just curious. Don't have to answer if this is too personal. How was the dynamic between your parents given the intellectual disparity? And what was your attitude and experience growing up with this disparity?
For myself, I love my wife dearly and she is a kind and loving person, but the intellectually disparity is a cause of disappointment at times. Of course, I don't express that directly. I just lower try to lower my expectations and find intellectual stimulation in other arenas.
I would buy lots of childrens books and read aloud when possible. If you can make reading a natural activity your kid will benefit greatly later on.
+1 to this, how can help cultivate curiosity for a willing adult participant
Sounds like my situation. I cope in a similar way.
What i tell myself is that a happy mom is probably more significant than most scientific advice about average kids. I think twice or thrice if i really want to push for something. One example I would have pushed for is "no rewards for good grades but for effort" but she actually agreed immediately.
What i tell myself is that a happy mom is probably more significant than most scientific advice about average kids. I think twice or thrice if i really want to push for something. One example I would have pushed for is "no rewards for good grades but for effort" but she actually agreed immediately.
Books about everything and instill a fierce love of them. Sci-fi, how-to, science, classic literature.. I grew up this way and my mum was proud of me even if she couldn't participate, it was enough.
> (at least in my own evaluation) am an intellectually curious person. My wife is comparatively uneducated, not a good thinker and not very curious at all.
I get what you mean, but I’ll add the following: I’m sure she loves the child as much as you do, and wants it to turn out well and happy. Books and formal knowledge are only a small part of human understanding; if your wife is kind and loving, chances are she understands certain things (esp human aspects) better than any book can teach. I’m sure your child will find a lot to learn from her too (and so could you) :-)
I get what you mean, but I’ll add the following: I’m sure she loves the child as much as you do, and wants it to turn out well and happy. Books and formal knowledge are only a small part of human understanding; if your wife is kind and loving, chances are she understands certain things (esp human aspects) better than any book can teach. I’m sure your child will find a lot to learn from her too (and so could you) :-)
This is wisdom right here that I need to apply. Thank you.
Let your wife be your wife. You be you. Kids are naturally curious, especially boys. I have both. My daughter is bright and a straight A student, but she and her friends lack the adventuresome nature boys have. My boys are game for anything that involves spaceships, science, animals, fishing, etc. They wanted to know how fish worked, so I cut a catch open and showed them what a fish looked like inside: eyes, brain, intestines, etc. Kids need to see this stuff. They need to know where their food comes from. Trips to organic farms, fisheries, deer rendering if you hunt.
My wife has a doctorate. She's very intelligent, far more than I am, if I'm honest, but... she cares nothing for anything other than her field. Nothing. She won't entertain ideas other than her own. I love her to death, but she's very narrow minded.
My parents (deceased) were chalk and cheese. My mother was sweet and loving. Her skills ended there. My father was likely a genius on many levels. There was nothing he couldn't suss out. I was having issues compiling a program written in Basic one day in 1983. He was an Ada/C guy and in 10 seconds saw the issue and had me correct it. He was a math wizard--had to be--he designed flight systems that people's lives depended on. He was anal retentive to the nth degree and that rubbed off on me. He always said, "Son, if you're going to do anything, do it as if your life and others depend on it." He even had me PM my own bicycles and the lawn mower. My mother was distant in many respects and died an alcoholic. Maybe she felt like she never fit in. I don't know. Her parents, my grandparents, were very educated and well read. Odd.
Like you, I find it incredibly frustrating that I cannot get an Arduino or Raspberry Pi project launched and share it with my wife. Her eyes glaze over and she's actually said, "I'm not interested." My kids are too young to grok what I'm doing and don't have the patience yet to learn (yet). She likes those brain dead games and TV shows that offer zero in the way of intellectual worth. I love anything sci-fi, coding, fishing, woodworking, etc. Don't lower your expectations. I would try and find common ground with her in something you both enjoy and let that be your communal source of joy with your wife. You need you time and so does she. Parenting is no joke and she is performing an unpaid job that is high stress. Take the kid out, just you and the kid. Give her some downtime to recharge. Women love that stuff. Just what works for me.
My wife has a doctorate. She's very intelligent, far more than I am, if I'm honest, but... she cares nothing for anything other than her field. Nothing. She won't entertain ideas other than her own. I love her to death, but she's very narrow minded.
My parents (deceased) were chalk and cheese. My mother was sweet and loving. Her skills ended there. My father was likely a genius on many levels. There was nothing he couldn't suss out. I was having issues compiling a program written in Basic one day in 1983. He was an Ada/C guy and in 10 seconds saw the issue and had me correct it. He was a math wizard--had to be--he designed flight systems that people's lives depended on. He was anal retentive to the nth degree and that rubbed off on me. He always said, "Son, if you're going to do anything, do it as if your life and others depend on it." He even had me PM my own bicycles and the lawn mower. My mother was distant in many respects and died an alcoholic. Maybe she felt like she never fit in. I don't know. Her parents, my grandparents, were very educated and well read. Odd.
Like you, I find it incredibly frustrating that I cannot get an Arduino or Raspberry Pi project launched and share it with my wife. Her eyes glaze over and she's actually said, "I'm not interested." My kids are too young to grok what I'm doing and don't have the patience yet to learn (yet). She likes those brain dead games and TV shows that offer zero in the way of intellectual worth. I love anything sci-fi, coding, fishing, woodworking, etc. Don't lower your expectations. I would try and find common ground with her in something you both enjoy and let that be your communal source of joy with your wife. You need you time and so does she. Parenting is no joke and she is performing an unpaid job that is high stress. Take the kid out, just you and the kid. Give her some downtime to recharge. Women love that stuff. Just what works for me.
There are things we enjoy together like hiking and traveling. I just wouldn't be able to talk politics or philosophy on a deep level with her for example.
Amen that parenting is no joke. She's a trooper with our kid and is way more patient and persevering that I am. I'm very thankful for her.
Thank you for your sharing and advice. I have this whole subthread bookmarked.
Amen that parenting is no joke. She's a trooper with our kid and is way more patient and persevering that I am. I'm very thankful for her.
Thank you for your sharing and advice. I have this whole subthread bookmarked.
Sorry if I am jumping a line, but did you not figure out that you and your wife don't really have a lot of common interests while you were dating?
I once read some advice that was something along the lines of "don't provide them with instruction, just provide them with the materials". I can remember being an extremely curious kid, but there were no materials in my house other than pencils and blank paper, and no books other than the dictionary. I'm still a curious adult, but I think the lack of access to any materials at home stunted my development.
I'm interested in exploring how education might be made unrecognizably better. So I'd appreciate anyone's thoughts on how to scale this.
With some things, we can see what's needed, even if we're not set up to attempt it. Education content could be transformatively less wretched, even with current tech. Critical concepts and misconceptions could be punchlisted. Support networks could be thicker, deeper, and non-local. To avoid so many falling though such large cracks.
But embedding in an excellent culture like this? There's some work from MOOCs. But especially for young kids, something more immersive is needed. We could be waiting years for child-compatible AR. And for humans-plus-AI-NPCs local-plus-remote collaborative learning communities. Is there anything beyond "well, there's the daily triage struggle towards slightly less toxic cultures, but really, unless you have an extraordinarily outlier family, you're just bleep-out-of-luck until mid-century"?
Which isn't intended to disparage everyone's day-by-day efforts. But if something like this family's environment is to become norm rather than outlier... we also have to be thinking and aiming bigger.
With some things, we can see what's needed, even if we're not set up to attempt it. Education content could be transformatively less wretched, even with current tech. Critical concepts and misconceptions could be punchlisted. Support networks could be thicker, deeper, and non-local. To avoid so many falling though such large cracks.
But embedding in an excellent culture like this? There's some work from MOOCs. But especially for young kids, something more immersive is needed. We could be waiting years for child-compatible AR. And for humans-plus-AI-NPCs local-plus-remote collaborative learning communities. Is there anything beyond "well, there's the daily triage struggle towards slightly less toxic cultures, but really, unless you have an extraordinarily outlier family, you're just bleep-out-of-luck until mid-century"?
Which isn't intended to disparage everyone's day-by-day efforts. But if something like this family's environment is to become norm rather than outlier... we also have to be thinking and aiming bigger.
Being somewhat wealthy probably helps significantly.
I agree, I think there is something important about cultivating curiosity.
This whole question got started in my mind after recently reading the book A Mathematician's Lament.
The comparison in the book is along the lines of memorizing methods and facts verse exploring ideas with the mind.
It's this idea of pursuing anything interesting just for the sake of it.
This whole question got started in my mind after recently reading the book A Mathematician's Lament.
The comparison in the book is along the lines of memorizing methods and facts verse exploring ideas with the mind.
It's this idea of pursuing anything interesting just for the sake of it.
I've watched several lectures on the subject. Teaching isn't learning, and some of the best teachers rather motivate children to learn on their own through internal or external motivation
Could you elaborate on the insight you learned from "A mathematican's lament"?
Could you elaborate on the insight you learned from "A mathematican's lament"?
What I took away from A Mathematican's Lament ties back to 2001 after the dotcom boom.
"So how do we teach our students to do mathematics? By choosing engaging and natural problems suitable to their tastes, personalities, and levels of experience. By giving them time to make discoveries and formulate conjectures. By helping them to refine their arguments and creating an atmosphere of healthy and vibrant mathematical criticism. By being flexible and open to sudden changes in the direction to which their curiosity may lead. In short, by having an honest intellectual relationship with our students and our subject."
I made an acquaintance with a retired math professor. We had some long discussions about education. He had stated he kept his kids out of school as long as he could. It was his view that much of the structure of the public education taught your child not to think. His son eventually went on to get a PHD in theoretical physics if is any reflection on his methods.
"So how do we teach our students to do mathematics? By choosing engaging and natural problems suitable to their tastes, personalities, and levels of experience. By giving them time to make discoveries and formulate conjectures. By helping them to refine their arguments and creating an atmosphere of healthy and vibrant mathematical criticism. By being flexible and open to sudden changes in the direction to which their curiosity may lead. In short, by having an honest intellectual relationship with our students and our subject."
Mine are in that age range. Here’s what I try.
* When they ask a question, I often say “I don’t know” in order to stimulate a discussion rather than just telling them the answer, and also to make it clear it’s OK not to know things.
* As well as “I don’t know”, I might also ask them why they think something and whether they would like to do a test or experiment to help them find out. I’m not talking science experiments really - questions like “Why is your shirt always tucked in?” I would answer by trying to put some action on them, like saying “Why don’t you try some different styles and see which one is best and then I might change my mind?”.
* I ask them questions about everyday situations even when I wouldn’t expect them to have any sensible answer (e.g. “what do you think I should write in this email to my boss?”), just to help broaden their understanding of the world and to demonstrate seeking advice and input from others.
* I sometimes throw them out into the garden and tell them to do whatever they like. Make-believe, bash rocks, whatever. As long as they are forced to entertain themselves!
* I let them watch YouTube on the TV (supervised), but I set the PIN as a solution to a puzzle. Turns out they like solving the puzzles as much as watching YouTube trash.
* On the theme of trash content consumption, I don’t ban it but try to talk about it (aside from setting some reasonable time limits), guiding the conversation towards questioning why they would want to spend their time on that. And you know what, sometimes they happen upon something cool and I let them change my mind and we watch it together.
* I tell lots of bedtime stories that I make up as we go along, letting them decide some things as we go. Strangely, eldest loves this but youngest is indifferent and would rather hear something familiar.
* Recognizing that they are still young kids and still letting them be kids and not expecting them to be debate prodigies or other tiger parent nonsense.
* When they ask a question, I often say “I don’t know” in order to stimulate a discussion rather than just telling them the answer, and also to make it clear it’s OK not to know things.
* As well as “I don’t know”, I might also ask them why they think something and whether they would like to do a test or experiment to help them find out. I’m not talking science experiments really - questions like “Why is your shirt always tucked in?” I would answer by trying to put some action on them, like saying “Why don’t you try some different styles and see which one is best and then I might change my mind?”.
* I ask them questions about everyday situations even when I wouldn’t expect them to have any sensible answer (e.g. “what do you think I should write in this email to my boss?”), just to help broaden their understanding of the world and to demonstrate seeking advice and input from others.
* I sometimes throw them out into the garden and tell them to do whatever they like. Make-believe, bash rocks, whatever. As long as they are forced to entertain themselves!
* I let them watch YouTube on the TV (supervised), but I set the PIN as a solution to a puzzle. Turns out they like solving the puzzles as much as watching YouTube trash.
* On the theme of trash content consumption, I don’t ban it but try to talk about it (aside from setting some reasonable time limits), guiding the conversation towards questioning why they would want to spend their time on that. And you know what, sometimes they happen upon something cool and I let them change my mind and we watch it together.
* I tell lots of bedtime stories that I make up as we go along, letting them decide some things as we go. Strangely, eldest loves this but youngest is indifferent and would rather hear something familiar.
* Recognizing that they are still young kids and still letting them be kids and not expecting them to be debate prodigies or other tiger parent nonsense.
All great points, but I never say "I don't know" if I actually know an answer. I've always provided answers to my kids (both biological and students I've taught) if I know the answer. It often then stimulates further discussion and can lead to even more complex questions.
As an example, my son often asks me scientific questions, and I provide the answers, and we talk a little around the subject. Eventually he stumped me though, when he asked if you were travelling at the speed of light would you cast a shadow. At that point I actually had to say "I don't know" and we ended up asking Twitter for an answer, and we both learned something.
https://twitter.com/Coding2Learn/status/715247765547270144
As an example, my son often asks me scientific questions, and I provide the answers, and we talk a little around the subject. Eventually he stumped me though, when he asked if you were travelling at the speed of light would you cast a shadow. At that point I actually had to say "I don't know" and we ended up asking Twitter for an answer, and we both learned something.
https://twitter.com/Coding2Learn/status/715247765547270144
Core knowledge. Create an environment that encourages a love of reading as soon as possible and help them develop core knowledge about the world around them. This includes both language and facts/concepts about everything from ancient history to the solar system.
Domain-specific background knowledge is incredibly important. It turns out (for the most part) there are no general purpose cognitive skills... it's all domain specific. A student that knows about baseball will comprehend an article about baseball much better than one that doesn't have the core knowledge of what a run, base, double, home run, etc. means. Decoding strategies be damned.
Helping your young child develop said background knowledge will put them in a fantastic spot as they enter school. They'll 'get the joke' - it's a bit like velcro for the brain. Nothing sticks for the students that enter school without the cognitive velcro that is domain-specific background knowledge.
I know this sounds completely contrary to the progressive education philosophies that domain our culture about teaching kids how to think vs what to think... no memorization, etc. It surprised me too.
Check out the work of cognitive scientist Daniel T. Willingham, Natalie Wexler (The Knowledge gap is a great book) or E.D. Hirsch for a deep dive.
Domain-specific background knowledge is incredibly important. It turns out (for the most part) there are no general purpose cognitive skills... it's all domain specific. A student that knows about baseball will comprehend an article about baseball much better than one that doesn't have the core knowledge of what a run, base, double, home run, etc. means. Decoding strategies be damned.
Helping your young child develop said background knowledge will put them in a fantastic spot as they enter school. They'll 'get the joke' - it's a bit like velcro for the brain. Nothing sticks for the students that enter school without the cognitive velcro that is domain-specific background knowledge.
I know this sounds completely contrary to the progressive education philosophies that domain our culture about teaching kids how to think vs what to think... no memorization, etc. It surprised me too.
Check out the work of cognitive scientist Daniel T. Willingham, Natalie Wexler (The Knowledge gap is a great book) or E.D. Hirsch for a deep dive.
Domain-specific background knowledge is incredibly important.
You see that when you hand word problems with more than one step to the poor kids. They use "solution strategies", that is they circle numbers and what they think are keywords, and they full well don't know what those words mean.
They circle "concentration", and they even can calculate a concentration given a mass of solute and volume of solvent, but they never thought about solutions and what solutions of different concentrations might do for you.
There is a paper somewhere in the Journal of Chemical Education where they handed numerical and conceptual questions to kids from Yale and FAMU. Quite contrary to expectations, the Yale kids did much better on the number questions, but on the questions what it all means both cohorts did equally lousy - 1/3 of kids at either school had an idea what those numbers they just calculated meant.
You see that when you hand word problems with more than one step to the poor kids. They use "solution strategies", that is they circle numbers and what they think are keywords, and they full well don't know what those words mean.
They circle "concentration", and they even can calculate a concentration given a mass of solute and volume of solvent, but they never thought about solutions and what solutions of different concentrations might do for you.
There is a paper somewhere in the Journal of Chemical Education where they handed numerical and conceptual questions to kids from Yale and FAMU. Quite contrary to expectations, the Yale kids did much better on the number questions, but on the questions what it all means both cohorts did equally lousy - 1/3 of kids at either school had an idea what those numbers they just calculated meant.
> It turns out (for the most part) there are no general purpose cognitive skills
There has to be at least one, even on your own account: knowing how to learn the domain specific knowledge for a new domain.
I would also add another: knowing how to spot and make use of common features between domains. But it's true that this skill can't even be developed until you've learned the domain specific knowledge in quite a few domains.
There has to be at least one, even on your own account: knowing how to learn the domain specific knowledge for a new domain.
I would also add another: knowing how to spot and make use of common features between domains. But it's true that this skill can't even be developed until you've learned the domain specific knowledge in quite a few domains.
I have a 7 year old in school now. The homework is pretty generic. There is not much in the way of domain-specific knowledge.
We do some activities at home. Chemistry, electronics, scratch programming. Stuff that is not taught in schools.
I use to live in radio shack as a kid. Putting together circuits was thrilling.
We do some activities at home. Chemistry, electronics, scratch programming. Stuff that is not taught in schools.
I use to live in radio shack as a kid. Putting together circuits was thrilling.
I am in no way saying you are doing this, comment is for the thread as well as you.
As others have mentioned in this discussion, I think giving the child both a sense and actual control over what they work on is one of the keys.
Children want to please their parents, so they might work on things that they think you would like. They are extremely good at reading people even if other actions seem uncoordinated. It is best to listen, in all senses of the word, to child and find out what they really like. Once you have found that, you have to make enough space for it to bloom.
One example for me was in getting my very adventurous athletic child to ride a scooter and a bike. I thought she would be one of those badass three year olds skating around with the big kids. She didn't really take to it, I tried to push it a little bit and I found myself a little deflated when said she didn't like it.
I sat back and figured out that I wanted it, and it wasn't fair for me to put that on to her. A smile isn't always a smile and encouragement is always what it seems. i backed off, would ask about it once in awhile but didn't pressure her again.
About 6 months ago she asked to ride the bike again, that she really wanted to learn. I told her she is gonna crash, it might hurt, but that anyone can do it. In 5 days of two 20-30 minute sessions a day, she was starting, stopping and turning all on her own. She was so excited to have learned it, I could see the accomplishment on her whole being.
Humans are wonderful all purpose devices, the spark that guides us the leads to our differentiation is the interest reward function. Capabilities are one thing, but interest, genuine interest is where the magic lies. The most interesting people are to me are the ones that ask the best questions, or give the answer you weren't expecting.
Our job as parents, I believe is to be a social and metacognitive mirror so that everyone can get a different perspective to explore and understand the world.
As others have mentioned in this discussion, I think giving the child both a sense and actual control over what they work on is one of the keys.
Children want to please their parents, so they might work on things that they think you would like. They are extremely good at reading people even if other actions seem uncoordinated. It is best to listen, in all senses of the word, to child and find out what they really like. Once you have found that, you have to make enough space for it to bloom.
One example for me was in getting my very adventurous athletic child to ride a scooter and a bike. I thought she would be one of those badass three year olds skating around with the big kids. She didn't really take to it, I tried to push it a little bit and I found myself a little deflated when said she didn't like it.
I sat back and figured out that I wanted it, and it wasn't fair for me to put that on to her. A smile isn't always a smile and encouragement is always what it seems. i backed off, would ask about it once in awhile but didn't pressure her again.
About 6 months ago she asked to ride the bike again, that she really wanted to learn. I told her she is gonna crash, it might hurt, but that anyone can do it. In 5 days of two 20-30 minute sessions a day, she was starting, stopping and turning all on her own. She was so excited to have learned it, I could see the accomplishment on her whole being.
Humans are wonderful all purpose devices, the spark that guides us the leads to our differentiation is the interest reward function. Capabilities are one thing, but interest, genuine interest is where the magic lies. The most interesting people are to me are the ones that ask the best questions, or give the answer you weren't expecting.
Our job as parents, I believe is to be a social and metacognitive mirror so that everyone can get a different perspective to explore and understand the world.
>Children want to please their parents, so they might work on things that they think you would like.
I think this is known as the Pygmalion effect. It is very powerful, and we as parents/teachers have to be very careful with this.
Knowing what each of us really wants is a difficult question to answer.
I often wonder how much of what my parents were and were not shaped what I have become.
My daughter actually just taught herself to ride this past weekend. Her biggest hurdle was getting over the fear of crashing. She started out balancing for a few days before she just magically started pedaling.
I think this is known as the Pygmalion effect. It is very powerful, and we as parents/teachers have to be very careful with this.
Knowing what each of us really wants is a difficult question to answer.
I often wonder how much of what my parents were and were not shaped what I have become.
My daughter actually just taught herself to ride this past weekend. Her biggest hurdle was getting over the fear of crashing. She started out balancing for a few days before she just magically started pedaling.
Riding a bike is hard. It is a lot like swimming, so many motions at the same time. The body has to think it, not the cortex. There is this great smarter everyday segment on a reverse bike. I recommend it for everyone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0
My kids first word was, "no". Her first sentence was, "help me no". I use those as guides to maintain the distance she desires.
Athletics like art are one of those accomplishments and outlets that kids can embrace at a young age w/o having the "when I grow up" statements. They can start living their lives in the now w/o adults putting it off to a later date.
Watching a kid finally get riding a bike is a wonderful thing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0
My kids first word was, "no". Her first sentence was, "help me no". I use those as guides to maintain the distance she desires.
Athletics like art are one of those accomplishments and outlets that kids can embrace at a young age w/o having the "when I grow up" statements. They can start living their lives in the now w/o adults putting it off to a later date.
Watching a kid finally get riding a bike is a wonderful thing.
I take issue with the idea that "Children want to please their parents".
Especially around age 13 or 14, pissing off parents is a sport.
Especially around age 13 or 14, pissing off parents is a sport.
I make up outrageous stuff all the time and will only come clean after some pressuring from the kids. Either it's worked wonders or my 6-year old is just a natural because she takes nothing for granted!
Her teacher tried to show her that it's ok to make mistakes because it's a natural part of learning. She said "Look at your little brother; he can't walk yet but he's trying and trying and falling all the time. But eventually all those falls will have taught him to walk!"
My daughter considered it, then looked her teacher in the eye and replied "we don't know that yet".
Her teacher tried to show her that it's ok to make mistakes because it's a natural part of learning. She said "Look at your little brother; he can't walk yet but he's trying and trying and falling all the time. But eventually all those falls will have taught him to walk!"
My daughter considered it, then looked her teacher in the eye and replied "we don't know that yet".
That was awesome. She was being truthful, to say the least. :D
I’d recommend reading up on Unschooling, even if you don’t plan to keep your kids out of school to Unschool. It is essentially giving them broad exposure to things, seeing what areas capture their imagination, and then supporting those areas as much as possible. Never forcing them to learn something because of how you feel something should be learned (which kills natural interest and excitement for learning) - they will come around to learning important things when they are ready!
You want them to think on their own. The best way to do this is to allow them to think on their own and nurture their own excitement to do so.
You want them to think on their own. The best way to do this is to allow them to think on their own and nurture their own excitement to do so.
Have you tried to Unschool kids?
What reading or other material have you enjoyed on this topic?
What reading or other material have you enjoyed on this topic?
Our eldest would just be starting kindergarten so our first hand experience is limited, but we have connected with tons of people that homeschool and unschool and had planned to do this even pre-Covid. We move a lot and wanted to have a more hands-on approach to teaching our kids so we started with homeschool research but unschooling has seemed like a far better fit. We’ve read a lot, my wife far more than me. It has been amazing hearing from people with older kids who, thanks to Covid, have been forced to try home learning and now aren’t going back. Several people we know have started unschooling kids older than ours and have seen a dramatic improvement in their kids’ confidence and interest in exploring new things.
This list of resources is pretty great: https://livingjoyfully.ca/resources/
The book Free to Learn and the John Holt books listed are excellent starting points.
We would also highly recommend Pam Laricchia’s books and podcasts.
This list of resources is pretty great: https://livingjoyfully.ca/resources/
The book Free to Learn and the John Holt books listed are excellent starting points.
We would also highly recommend Pam Laricchia’s books and podcasts.
My usual answer is 'by example'.
I like to think I'm teaching my kid to think. Last night we started wondering why fish can swim near sharks and not get eaten. We talked, we speculated, we joked, we researched and discussed what we had found.
I wasn't trying to teach her to think. I had no ulterior motives at all, I was genuinely curious about shark feeding behavior. As I look back on it now I feel like I was teaching her to think by encouraging her to think, sincerely considering her ideas, showing her how to test them, and coming away with more knowledge than we started with.
I like to think I'm teaching my kid to think. Last night we started wondering why fish can swim near sharks and not get eaten. We talked, we speculated, we joked, we researched and discussed what we had found.
I wasn't trying to teach her to think. I had no ulterior motives at all, I was genuinely curious about shark feeding behavior. As I look back on it now I feel like I was teaching her to think by encouraging her to think, sincerely considering her ideas, showing her how to test them, and coming away with more knowledge than we started with.
Show them by example how to be skeptical without accusing people of lying, and mention often the many reasons why people say things that might not be completely true.
Also, you need to make sure you yourself don't lie to them. A lot of parents still teach their kids to believe in Santa Claus. I know this is one of those cultural sacred cows, but I strongly think this should not be done. Kids need to be able to trust their parents and caregivers to a higher degree than the rest of society.
I've done some formal "activities" with them in homeschooling, like sorting "real" vs. "not real," but even I don't think those are as good as leading by example.
Also, you need to make sure you yourself don't lie to them. A lot of parents still teach their kids to believe in Santa Claus. I know this is one of those cultural sacred cows, but I strongly think this should not be done. Kids need to be able to trust their parents and caregivers to a higher degree than the rest of society.
I've done some formal "activities" with them in homeschooling, like sorting "real" vs. "not real," but even I don't think those are as good as leading by example.
My wife and I agreed to be rigorously honest with our daughter. When "Santa" came up I was initially very uncomfortable with the lie.
After discussing it with my wife we opted to go on with the lie under the conditions that it not be used for any kind of negative reinforcement-- none of the "Santa is watching you..." kind of stuff-- and that the "reveal" needed to be handled appropriately.
When she does deduce the lie the plan is to explain to her as such:
- It's a tradition that is passed down to bring joy to children. It allows parents to give gifts in a way that carries no expectation of thanks or praise.
- She is now in on the "secret". It's her responsibility to guard the secret the same way her parents did before her. She knows what joy it brought to her and she shouldn't spoil that joy for others.
- We do not lie to her, as a rule. We took this very seriously and thought hard about it. We decided the joy it would bring to her, and to the people she might one day be "Santa" for, was worth betraying her trust in this case.
I still don't feel great about it, but I can live w/ myself.
The little girl is 7 right now. She has said stuff like "I think Santa is really you and Mom". She also questions that conclusion, though, because because she says, effectively, that she doesn't have evidence for it. (I need talk about about Occam's razor and the idea that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence... >smile<)
After discussing it with my wife we opted to go on with the lie under the conditions that it not be used for any kind of negative reinforcement-- none of the "Santa is watching you..." kind of stuff-- and that the "reveal" needed to be handled appropriately.
When she does deduce the lie the plan is to explain to her as such:
- It's a tradition that is passed down to bring joy to children. It allows parents to give gifts in a way that carries no expectation of thanks or praise.
- She is now in on the "secret". It's her responsibility to guard the secret the same way her parents did before her. She knows what joy it brought to her and she shouldn't spoil that joy for others.
- We do not lie to her, as a rule. We took this very seriously and thought hard about it. We decided the joy it would bring to her, and to the people she might one day be "Santa" for, was worth betraying her trust in this case.
I still don't feel great about it, but I can live w/ myself.
The little girl is 7 right now. She has said stuff like "I think Santa is really you and Mom". She also questions that conclusion, though, because because she says, effectively, that she doesn't have evidence for it. (I need talk about about Occam's razor and the idea that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence... >smile<)
It's funny, my parents did exactly the same thing and while I enjoyed playing along I can't recall ever believing a word of it. I'm not sure how my gut so quickly got to the truth. Maybe people deep down follow Occam's razor, though more likely I just got it by osmosis.
To tell you the truth, I think back to that when I question my gut to this day. I'm thankful my parents never lied to me outside of it, but the wonderful thing about Santa is that everyone is in on the conspiracy, so if you can see past it you'll only ever be more confident in the truth when you find it, without taking it for granted. If it means anything from a random person on hacker news, I benefited from being told that Santa existed, and from the sound of it your daughter will too.
To tell you the truth, I think back to that when I question my gut to this day. I'm thankful my parents never lied to me outside of it, but the wonderful thing about Santa is that everyone is in on the conspiracy, so if you can see past it you'll only ever be more confident in the truth when you find it, without taking it for granted. If it means anything from a random person on hacker news, I benefited from being told that Santa existed, and from the sound of it your daughter will too.
LOL. My mom was visiting us when my 5 year old asked about Santa. I explained with a stone cold face that Santa isn't real, presents come from mom and dad, and instead of waiting for Xmas we just get her things when she needs them, and that's why she didn't get anything for Xmas while her friends did. My mom was petrified, but my daughter didn't seem to care. Kids are really okay with adult stuff, there is more than one way to sparkle delight in their life, and it doesn't have to be Santa (imo).
I don't agree about Santa Claus fwiw. This is culture-specific, but here (Ireland) he's an integral part of Christmas, and of the excitement about Christmas that kids experience. Santa Claus is the only lie I've ever consciously told my kids. By doing so I've given them access to a great deal of joy and fun, both individual and communal. Should I have deprived them of that because I wanted be absolutely consistent, or to feel virtuous?
This will end up being a personal decision that each parent makes. Much like the previous commenter, my wife and I made a conscious decision to separate myth from fact.
Everything fictional is in "stories."
I never want to be in the position where I consciously lie to my son, so Santa Claus is very clearly a story. That said, we can do all sorts of fun imaginative things with story characters because we know they are not real.
This allows us to have the magic of Santa, without eventually having a large breach of trust.
Everything fictional is in "stories."
I never want to be in the position where I consciously lie to my son, so Santa Claus is very clearly a story. That said, we can do all sorts of fun imaginative things with story characters because we know they are not real.
This allows us to have the magic of Santa, without eventually having a large breach of trust.
> I never want to be in the position where I consciously lie to my son, so Santa Claus is very clearly a story.
I find this interesting: do you believe there is something intrinsically bad in the lies?
Normally, I would think they lead to lack of trust, but I don't seem to remember children losing trust in their parents when they discovered _they_ are really Santa Claus.
I mean, it seems to me that not all un-truths are created equal.
I find this interesting: do you believe there is something intrinsically bad in the lies?
Normally, I would think they lead to lack of trust, but I don't seem to remember children losing trust in their parents when they discovered _they_ are really Santa Claus.
I mean, it seems to me that not all un-truths are created equal.
I'm not the person you asked, but I could see there being harm in lying to children about how reality works. When children are first growing up, they have no clue about the nature of reality, of what is and is not possible, but their brains are constantly gobbling up data on what the world is like. From this, one forms concepts of how things relate to each other. Ideally as they do this, there are no contradictions between their concepts, or they're worked out over time, but in lying to a child and feeding them this false information, you are introducing contradictions into their concepts and distorting their view of reality. And one's view of reality directly relates to their ability to interact with it in a self-beneficial way.
Now I can't say that this will actually have much of an effect, like I said, we can naturally work out these contradictions over time, but I think this is why one should not lie to children in general.
Like you say, not all untruths are created equal. It could be quite easy for them to fix their concepts once they realize it is a lie, but perhaps it could have some lingering effects. I can't say. I'm not a psychologist and each individual, and their mind, is different.
Now I can't say that this will actually have much of an effect, like I said, we can naturally work out these contradictions over time, but I think this is why one should not lie to children in general.
Like you say, not all untruths are created equal. It could be quite easy for them to fix their concepts once they realize it is a lie, but perhaps it could have some lingering effects. I can't say. I'm not a psychologist and each individual, and their mind, is different.
> This will end up being a personal decision that each parent makes.
And because of that I want to add how my parents did it, which was kind of along the lines of "teaching children to think": They kept up the myth until we started questioning it, turning it into a sort of rite of passage.
I figured it out in 2nd grade, age 7 or 8, right at the point OP is asking about.
And because of that I want to add how my parents did it, which was kind of along the lines of "teaching children to think": They kept up the myth until we started questioning it, turning it into a sort of rite of passage.
I figured it out in 2nd grade, age 7 or 8, right at the point OP is asking about.
You and your son can do fun imaginative things, but I suspect he will not be able to fully share in the fantasy world that other kids who believe in Santa inhabit. But that's fine, it's your decision - parenthood (like everything) is all about tradeoffs like this
No easter bunny for your kids?
We don't really have easter bunny in Ireland
Ahh. Didnt know. So what about st patrick driving out the snakes?
haha - we have st. patrick's day obvs, with various traditions associated with it, but the snake myth is not something anyone really subscribes to or cares about
Santa Claus may be 'intellectually' useful starting from the instant the kid learns that is is a myth, because this may teach him that seeing everybody apparently believe in something doesn't preclude that, in fact, nearly nobody does.
This may be of paramount importance when it comes to forming a critical mind.
Moreover any human group is built upon myths.
This may be of paramount importance when it comes to forming a critical mind.
Moreover any human group is built upon myths.
Critical thinking is a lot harder than just saying, "Don't believe other people." You have to teach that people may be trustworthy in one area, but not in another. You have to teach when you can take a statement on face value. You have to teach how to be skeptical of your own judgments and defer to others sometimes. You may also teach them how to spot liars. These things require time to understand and I don't see that happening if you sabotage the process by openly betraying them in a huge way early on.
> Critical thinking is a lot harder than just saying, "Don't believe other people."
Indeed, and I didn't write that the Santa Claus myth is sufficient on this behalf, but that it may help.
Are you rejecting anything but a perfect (simple and exhaustive) way to teach critical thinking? I never crossed one, and doubt it exists for any complex philosophical asset. Refusing any other way exposes to the 'perfect solution fallacy'.
> if you sabotage the process by openly betraying them in a huge way early on.
I doubt kids learning that Santa Claus is a myth feel betrayed, and never perceived it (I was born in 1967 and have a daughter).
The SC myth is well-built because when discovering its nature a kid understands that the lie is innocuous and even pleasant (gifts, gatherings...), and therefore not really a 'betraying'. He can then proceed to other conclusions about intents, the way he forms his own beliefs...
I'm not fond of the SC myth nor do I practice it, however I try to be objective (this is part of critical thinking!).
Indeed, and I didn't write that the Santa Claus myth is sufficient on this behalf, but that it may help.
Are you rejecting anything but a perfect (simple and exhaustive) way to teach critical thinking? I never crossed one, and doubt it exists for any complex philosophical asset. Refusing any other way exposes to the 'perfect solution fallacy'.
> if you sabotage the process by openly betraying them in a huge way early on.
I doubt kids learning that Santa Claus is a myth feel betrayed, and never perceived it (I was born in 1967 and have a daughter).
The SC myth is well-built because when discovering its nature a kid understands that the lie is innocuous and even pleasant (gifts, gatherings...), and therefore not really a 'betraying'. He can then proceed to other conclusions about intents, the way he forms his own beliefs...
I'm not fond of the SC myth nor do I practice it, however I try to be objective (this is part of critical thinking!).
We told our kids that Santa was a pretend game that adults play.
But, um, I don't think we took the same tack with the Tooth Fairy. We told our kids that the Tooth Fairy recycled teeth - when they fell out of kids' mouths, the Tooth Fairy took them and gave them to babies that were just getting their teeth.
So I guess I'm a hypocrite :-(
But, um, I don't think we took the same tack with the Tooth Fairy. We told our kids that the Tooth Fairy recycled teeth - when they fell out of kids' mouths, the Tooth Fairy took them and gave them to babies that were just getting their teeth.
So I guess I'm a hypocrite :-(
I beg to differ about the lying. Do lie about unimportant things, let them try and figure out the lie, then confess (regardless of whether they figured it out or not). It becomes like a game, and if you do it right, in a lighthearted way, they will also trust you when it counts.
Wouldn't that also teach them to lie to you about things they consider "unimportant"?
First, find something that excites them. If it doesn't excite them, they won't engage with it and they won't take any lessons from it.
Physical learning seems to be important. Legos, science experiments, flying kites, etc., are all great ways for kids to learn about things in a concrete way. One science experiment I did with my oldest daughter was a "Will it sink or float?" experiment that is easy to do - just get a tub of water and random house hold items (coins; cereal; piece of bread; piece of paper; etc.).
Reading to them, and stopping to ask them questions about the book. What's happening on this page? How do you think that character feels? What do you think is going to happen next?
Show your kids that they can write stories. It doesn't have to be something fancy, just a bunch of pictures on regular printer paper, each with a sentence describing what's happening. If your kids are too young to write the words themselves, you can ask them what the page should say and write it for them.
Let them be bored sometimes. When given nothing to do, kids are forced to figure something to do by themselves.
Physical learning seems to be important. Legos, science experiments, flying kites, etc., are all great ways for kids to learn about things in a concrete way. One science experiment I did with my oldest daughter was a "Will it sink or float?" experiment that is easy to do - just get a tub of water and random house hold items (coins; cereal; piece of bread; piece of paper; etc.).
Reading to them, and stopping to ask them questions about the book. What's happening on this page? How do you think that character feels? What do you think is going to happen next?
Show your kids that they can write stories. It doesn't have to be something fancy, just a bunch of pictures on regular printer paper, each with a sentence describing what's happening. If your kids are too young to write the words themselves, you can ask them what the page should say and write it for them.
Let them be bored sometimes. When given nothing to do, kids are forced to figure something to do by themselves.
Not 100% sure what aspect of thinking you mean, but in general, Read, read, read. Figure out how best to do for your family, but for ours (4,8,11yo, but we've done this since the first was ~3):
* Every night, read them out loud classic books slightly over recommended reading age. We started with Jungle Book, Riki Tiki Tavi, other Kipling, Bears on Hemlock Mountain, etc. These days we just finished Lord of the Rings and are doing Silmarillion. Jules Verne is another favorite.
* Audio books. We use Audible and always play something when traveling to swim practice, etc. Boxcar Children, Historical fiction, Paddington, etc.
* Encourage imaginative play based on the stories. Ours have an ongoing play containing Hobbits, bears, elves, Harry Potter and Star Wars ;) Encourage them to make up and tell their own stories.
* Go to the library weekly (ours just reopened on a limited basis). We let ours check out 5 books of whatever they want, but say 2 must be history, science, literature, etc. Get them their own card as soon as possible.
While fiction might not seem at first to "teach kids how to think", it really can. It simulates what people are thinking in various situations the kids can relate to. Storytelling can help them reinforce that and extrapolate to new scenarios in fun, safe ways. Mensa has some great reading lists: https://www.mensaforkids.org/achieve/excellence-in-reading/
Not reading, but we also:
* Discuss and research together in depth things that interest us and them. For example, I talk to mine about the latest space news over dinner. They love hearing about various missions, challenges to space travel, etc.
* Play chess and/or other strategy games.
* DuoLingo on a regular basis. We let ours choose what language - I have one doing Dutch and one doing Latin.
* Code.org, youtube DIY and educational channels
Again, I believe in aiming slightly over their heads. Not so much you bore them to death, but enough to get gears turning. Even if they don't retain details, it builds a framework for them to build on. Susan Wise Bauer in The Well Trained Mind talks about how doing this can provide "coat hangers" for them to hang bigger thoughts and more details on in later years.
* Every night, read them out loud classic books slightly over recommended reading age. We started with Jungle Book, Riki Tiki Tavi, other Kipling, Bears on Hemlock Mountain, etc. These days we just finished Lord of the Rings and are doing Silmarillion. Jules Verne is another favorite.
* Audio books. We use Audible and always play something when traveling to swim practice, etc. Boxcar Children, Historical fiction, Paddington, etc.
* Encourage imaginative play based on the stories. Ours have an ongoing play containing Hobbits, bears, elves, Harry Potter and Star Wars ;) Encourage them to make up and tell their own stories.
* Go to the library weekly (ours just reopened on a limited basis). We let ours check out 5 books of whatever they want, but say 2 must be history, science, literature, etc. Get them their own card as soon as possible.
While fiction might not seem at first to "teach kids how to think", it really can. It simulates what people are thinking in various situations the kids can relate to. Storytelling can help them reinforce that and extrapolate to new scenarios in fun, safe ways. Mensa has some great reading lists: https://www.mensaforkids.org/achieve/excellence-in-reading/
Not reading, but we also:
* Discuss and research together in depth things that interest us and them. For example, I talk to mine about the latest space news over dinner. They love hearing about various missions, challenges to space travel, etc.
* Play chess and/or other strategy games.
* DuoLingo on a regular basis. We let ours choose what language - I have one doing Dutch and one doing Latin.
* Code.org, youtube DIY and educational channels
Again, I believe in aiming slightly over their heads. Not so much you bore them to death, but enough to get gears turning. Even if they don't retain details, it builds a framework for them to build on. Susan Wise Bauer in The Well Trained Mind talks about how doing this can provide "coat hangers" for them to hang bigger thoughts and more details on in later years.
That mensa list looks great, thank you for sharing.
I have been trying to read to the kids as much as I can. It depends on homework and schedules. Right now we are almost through The Hobbit.
I have been trying to read to the kids as much as I can. It depends on homework and schedules. Right now we are almost through The Hobbit.
It is hard to fit in sometimes, but even just 10-15 minutes right before bed can work. Plus Audible in the car gets us another hour or so a day. I actually started when the oldest wouldn't go to bed as a way to settle him down.
We love The Hobbit. My 8yo the other day at dinner said "If Frodo or Bilbo had just killed Gollum instead of being kind to him, then Middle Earth would not have been saved." A great discussion of justice vs forgiveness ensued, but unfortunately did not carry over to their sibling rivalry ;)
We love The Hobbit. My 8yo the other day at dinner said "If Frodo or Bilbo had just killed Gollum instead of being kind to him, then Middle Earth would not have been saved." A great discussion of justice vs forgiveness ensued, but unfortunately did not carry over to their sibling rivalry ;)
I find reading before bed really helps to get them to sleep. It gets their minds off what ever they were thinking about.
I myself get extremely tired when I try to read something close to bed.
I myself get extremely tired when I try to read something close to bed.
Ironically enough, I actually wrote about just this topic...
https://austingwalters.com/talk-to-yourself/
IMO it’s all about giving kids time alone, Not stimulated, to learn how to think about the voice in their head. A lot of what we do is try to inject more stimulus to teach, instead (and this is similar to the Montessori school of thought) they need some time to formulate a self image and learn to reflect and build an ego (self).
https://austingwalters.com/talk-to-yourself/
IMO it’s all about giving kids time alone, Not stimulated, to learn how to think about the voice in their head. A lot of what we do is try to inject more stimulus to teach, instead (and this is similar to the Montessori school of thought) they need some time to formulate a self image and learn to reflect and build an ego (self).
Kids really love silly. I think this is key to getting them to think.
For example, with my very young niece, I would tell her nonsense stories, where there's a purple lion on the back of the turtle, etc. Keeping track of this weird story kept her gears spinning.
Other times I would tease her and say that my name was her name, or that blue was purple. I would try to mimic her voice, or draw out syllables in a funny way. The net result is hilarious conversations where she is explaining very carefully why I am not her, and why colors are different.
Basically, keeping things fun is useful for everyone, but even more for kids.
For example, with my very young niece, I would tell her nonsense stories, where there's a purple lion on the back of the turtle, etc. Keeping track of this weird story kept her gears spinning.
Other times I would tease her and say that my name was her name, or that blue was purple. I would try to mimic her voice, or draw out syllables in a funny way. The net result is hilarious conversations where she is explaining very carefully why I am not her, and why colors are different.
Basically, keeping things fun is useful for everyone, but even more for kids.
I've found the same thing. It's a good way of keeping kids thinking while having fun. Furthermore I think it builds confidence in their own way of thinking and a natural scepticism to new information. Is the world playing tricks with me again or is it valid information?
Also if someone has a recommendation on how to teach adults to think, that would be useful too. Ages 21-90.
(Jokes aside, is it that different? Isn't the larger question: what does it mean to "think", and what does it mean to "teach" someone to do it?)
(Jokes aside, is it that different? Isn't the larger question: what does it mean to "think", and what does it mean to "teach" someone to do it?)
OP here,
The Thinking Toolbox by Bluedorn is pretty good. The target age starts at 12-13.
For me, this is still too advanced for the age range 6-8 I am looking for. The biggest challenge is taking these abstract ideas and making them accessible and interesting to a child.
I taught a few lessons in Scratch programming last year to grades 1-5. Before I conceptualized the lessons, I had listened to the audio book Made to Stick. I found this was helpful in thinking about how I should communicate these abstract ideas about programming to younger kids.
The Thinking Toolbox by Bluedorn is pretty good. The target age starts at 12-13.
For me, this is still too advanced for the age range 6-8 I am looking for. The biggest challenge is taking these abstract ideas and making them accessible and interesting to a child.
I taught a few lessons in Scratch programming last year to grades 1-5. Before I conceptualized the lessons, I had listened to the audio book Made to Stick. I found this was helpful in thinking about how I should communicate these abstract ideas about programming to younger kids.
I didn’t understand that you specifically meant how to think about programming.
That is a more specific — and therefore more answerable — question. I thought you meant thinking in general from the post.
That is a more specific — and therefore more answerable — question. I thought you meant thinking in general from the post.
I offered Scratch as a specific example, but I think the ideas can be applied in the general.
The ideas I had been studying these days come from Carol Sandford. I am not sure how to summerize her work. In the case of developing a person’s (be they children, teens, or adult) capabilities, it comes in a couple ways:
1. First, linking intrinsic motivation with something meaningfully contributes to something outside of them. The catch? This is something the person chooses for themselves, based on what Sandford calls “essence”. Rewards and incentives are still external. Whatever is chosen may be beyond the child’s current capability.
2. A framework (a way of seeing the world and self) is given so that the child can grow his own capability in order to accomplish what he set out to contribute. Those things like observation, problem solving, critical thinking, systems thinking are developed by the child, and driven by the child’s intrinsic motivation.
There is a lot more to that, and I am still learning and applying this myself.
Something like this does not require a child to have genius level iq.
1. First, linking intrinsic motivation with something meaningfully contributes to something outside of them. The catch? This is something the person chooses for themselves, based on what Sandford calls “essence”. Rewards and incentives are still external. Whatever is chosen may be beyond the child’s current capability.
2. A framework (a way of seeing the world and self) is given so that the child can grow his own capability in order to accomplish what he set out to contribute. Those things like observation, problem solving, critical thinking, systems thinking are developed by the child, and driven by the child’s intrinsic motivation.
There is a lot more to that, and I am still learning and applying this myself.
Something like this does not require a child to have genius level iq.
This sounds similar to Montessori. The Montessori schools have fostered many entrepreneurs.
What books or resources from Carol Sandford have found most interesting?
She has a lot of resources that sprawl all over, including numerous podcast interviews and blog posts. She had been doing this for 40 years now. If you ever heard of things like “regenerative growth” from the business world, it came from her.
The biggest thing about what she teaches is a different way of viewing the world. How to identify the paradigm, epistemology, and frame, including your own patterns of thinking. The kind of problems she is addressing cannot be solved through the paradigm that generated those problems.
I would say start with _Regenerative Life_ unless you intend to try applying this in business first. I think she has community somewhere specifically for educators and homeschoolers, but it is radically different because it is developed from a regenerative paradigm.
If you are looking for a single resource that gives you a broad taste of many of the things she teaches, I’d say go with this podcast interview: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-regenerative-real-...
The biggest thing about what she teaches is a different way of viewing the world. How to identify the paradigm, epistemology, and frame, including your own patterns of thinking. The kind of problems she is addressing cannot be solved through the paradigm that generated those problems.
I would say start with _Regenerative Life_ unless you intend to try applying this in business first. I think she has community somewhere specifically for educators and homeschoolers, but it is radically different because it is developed from a regenerative paradigm.
If you are looking for a single resource that gives you a broad taste of many of the things she teaches, I’d say go with this podcast interview: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-regenerative-real-...
Also, I had kept this in mind ever since I had heard about it: https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/06/09/6169288...
But it wasn’t until I started trying to examine paradigms, or heard Sandford’s approach to growing people, that I understood why it works for indigenous families, or how it can work in the modern world. Those toddlers want to contribute something meaningful and the indigeous parents let them, growing their capacity. When the scope of the contribution expands from helping the household to helping the community, helping the society, helping the world, such a kid becomes powerful agents of meaningful change.
But it wasn’t until I started trying to examine paradigms, or heard Sandford’s approach to growing people, that I understood why it works for indigenous families, or how it can work in the modern world. Those toddlers want to contribute something meaningful and the indigeous parents let them, growing their capacity. When the scope of the contribution expands from helping the household to helping the community, helping the society, helping the world, such a kid becomes powerful agents of meaningful change.
I believe you should ban 'because I say so' as an answer. I dont know if it is good or harmful, but I generally say if I dont know an answer and if I know it is a question the answer nobody in the world knows, I will say this as well.
This. I remember my parents using this excuse all the time when I was a kid and it felt like such a cop-out. There is an answer for everything, even if it is "I don't know" or "nobody knows". I despise "because I said so" now and my wife and I don't use that phrase with our 5 year old, we always try to find the best answer to his endless list of questions.
The only thing I worry about there (i worry a lot...), maybe this dispise in the child can trigger to find out what really goes on. (Cannot explain well, its like you need to ban swearwords otherwise they wouldnt have any emotional power)
I constantly tell them verifiable lies, but you need to make them cute, fun and solvable. No one wants to solve riddles that are so obtuse as to not even try.
My six year old has the bullshit detector of a street smart teenager, not in all aspects, but in enough. I cried a little bit when she asked me, "how do you know that is true?"
My six year old has the bullshit detector of a street smart teenager, not in all aspects, but in enough. I cried a little bit when she asked me, "how do you know that is true?"
A simple procedure that's worked ok so far has been to give answers then follow up with, "do you know why?" and get them to try and give a reason for my decision or judgement. I've noticed that eventually they're able to determine the reason for our parenting decisions. We also tend to give our children lots of decisions to make early on so that they're used to determining the costs and benefits of decisions, especially when it's cheap to make mistakes.
I can highly recommend philosophy. I have not researched this area, but I am sure there are other organizations that encourage kids to become more reflective and to not jump to quick conclusions while thinking.
Here's one: https://www.paradoxlab.org/
What's praise-worthy about this initiative is philosophy Ph.D. - level organizers: https://www.paradoxlab.org/our-team-1
Here's one: https://www.paradoxlab.org/
What's praise-worthy about this initiative is philosophy Ph.D. - level organizers: https://www.paradoxlab.org/our-team-1
I agree about philosophy.
I stumbled upon this book Big Ideas for Curious Minds: An Introduction to Philosophy when I was wandering the library on my lunch break last year.
I stumbled upon this book Big Ideas for Curious Minds: An Introduction to Philosophy when I was wandering the library on my lunch break last year.
I have had a kind of struggle to bring up kids while being in the skizophrenic spectrum And providing the income as a dev.
But my approach has always been:
1. Read every day and spice it up with my own freaky tales of spiderman, witches, jungles etc. My dad used to do the same and my kids like it a lot.
2. Be outside in all weather and all times. Nothing hits jumping in pools of water with or without boots. We dig a lot in a nearby field of dirt, making caves and talking about materials etc. Also we like fishing crabs and making bonfires year around.
Being outside is the only place i am at piece with my sickened head so it also means they get to spend time with "not stressed dad"
3. We draw a lot, have paper and drawing stuff everywhere. We hang them up and talk about them.
4. Recently we have begun to make simple "turtle drawing" programs together to show them how fun it is that if you can instruct a computer to draw one tree you can also tell it to draw 100 different trees of different size and colors.
5. We talk a lot and we never "dumb it down" instead i spin the history stories or the science stuff i like to talk baout so they get intrugued .
The outcome: they are happy. I value their happyness as its sadly not the feeling i wear. My sadness is not invisible to them but the time we spend together and my openness about it has not yet had a negative impact on them.
They are also very socially engaged and thoughtful which i hope is as well connected to the many different types of people, from all layers of society, that they see me talking to.
But my approach has always been:
1. Read every day and spice it up with my own freaky tales of spiderman, witches, jungles etc. My dad used to do the same and my kids like it a lot.
2. Be outside in all weather and all times. Nothing hits jumping in pools of water with or without boots. We dig a lot in a nearby field of dirt, making caves and talking about materials etc. Also we like fishing crabs and making bonfires year around.
Being outside is the only place i am at piece with my sickened head so it also means they get to spend time with "not stressed dad"
3. We draw a lot, have paper and drawing stuff everywhere. We hang them up and talk about them.
4. Recently we have begun to make simple "turtle drawing" programs together to show them how fun it is that if you can instruct a computer to draw one tree you can also tell it to draw 100 different trees of different size and colors.
5. We talk a lot and we never "dumb it down" instead i spin the history stories or the science stuff i like to talk baout so they get intrugued .
The outcome: they are happy. I value their happyness as its sadly not the feeling i wear. My sadness is not invisible to them but the time we spend together and my openness about it has not yet had a negative impact on them.
They are also very socially engaged and thoughtful which i hope is as well connected to the many different types of people, from all layers of society, that they see me talking to.
My wife makes low effort stem activities for kids on youtube. Like dungeons and dragons-lite https://youtu.be/RHyAGwUOhkA . It's more for 4-6 year olds but my children seem to be very strong on experiment design compared to other kids their age. We very much push a narrative of "Let's find out"
Check out the book The Absorbent Mind by Maria Montessori.
Seconded! Montessori in general is worth a look. Jives with a lot of the other "provide an environment conducive to exploration" comments here, but also gets down to very concrete practices, e.g. foster independence by providing a predictable and child-sized environment so that children can e.g. make their own breakfast.
This stands in contrast to modern practices of shuttling children from activity to activity, arranging their lives for them and depriving them of control.
Independence in daily activities dovetails into independence in intellectual educations. Children tend to develop those activities over which they have the most hands-on control and most freedom for self-exploration.
This stands in contrast to modern practices of shuttling children from activity to activity, arranging their lives for them and depriving them of control.
Independence in daily activities dovetails into independence in intellectual educations. Children tend to develop those activities over which they have the most hands-on control and most freedom for self-exploration.
Thanks for the recommendation. Looks like a great book and is on sale now for Kindle:
https://www.amazon.com/Absorbent-Mind-Unabridged-Start-Publi...
https://www.amazon.com/Absorbent-Mind-Unabridged-Start-Publi...
thank you for the recommendation, I am going to order a copy.
At our school there is a lot of support for the "growth mindset". In summary, you praise the effort more than the results, believing anyone can do pretty much anything with enough effort (contrast with the "fixed mindset" where abilities are considered innate). Keeps children actively learning, and not resting on laurels or giving up because they think they aren't good enough. Seems to make sense - I remember reading about all the child geniuses that end up not amounting to much as adults, the theory being that they stopped putting effort in given they hadn't developed a connection between effort and outcome.
Just reading up on the "growth mindset" now, and it seems there is some recent criticism of the idea, although that stems from inability to replicate the research results, not that there is a more widely preferred alternative.
Just reading up on the "growth mindset" now, and it seems there is some recent criticism of the idea, although that stems from inability to replicate the research results, not that there is a more widely preferred alternative.
I praise my daughter telling her she worked hard, that is why she got her results.
I think that aspect of growth mindset is still valid. If you tell a kid they are smart, they will be in for a shock when someone smarter comes along.
I think that aspect of growth mindset is still valid. If you tell a kid they are smart, they will be in for a shock when someone smarter comes along.
My kids are still young (11,7,4) so we'll see how it turns out, but we've got a strong culture of asking questions in our house. I do it so frequently that when we sit down at the table I often get asked "can we do questions".
Sometimes they request specific questions (so they can show off what they've learned) and I lob them softballs (addition, geography, and other stuff they are learning about in schools often shows up). But sometimes I like to explore deeper questions that don't have clear answers. For example:
- Why are some people rich and some people poor
- What is justice?
- What does it mean to be a good man?
- Who should pay your teachers?
and so on.
A lot of the source topics are covered in classical books, particularly Plato's Republic (a dialogue where they go about conjuring up an ideal society), but I find that the kids will quickly take it in their own direction.
Honestly it's one of the more enjoyable things I get to do with the kids.
Sometimes they request specific questions (so they can show off what they've learned) and I lob them softballs (addition, geography, and other stuff they are learning about in schools often shows up). But sometimes I like to explore deeper questions that don't have clear answers. For example:
- Why are some people rich and some people poor
- What is justice?
- What does it mean to be a good man?
- Who should pay your teachers?
and so on.
A lot of the source topics are covered in classical books, particularly Plato's Republic (a dialogue where they go about conjuring up an ideal society), but I find that the kids will quickly take it in their own direction.
Honestly it's one of the more enjoyable things I get to do with the kids.
Foster an environment where kids can practice asking (the right) questions: https://youtu.be/APVaTRNQmJc
Good activities are open-ended for more opportunity to question. Drop an egg, improve its survivability.
Good activities are open-ended for more opportunity to question. Drop an egg, improve its survivability.
that is a great video. Can you suggest any more like it?
Encourage kids to hypothesise, experiment, fail, adjust and succeed: https://youtu.be/9vJRopau0g0
Actively prevent loss-aversion from being the only learned lesson of failure. Encourage risk-taking by providing a safe space to fail: https://youtu.be/lJs-RiPOKVY
Actively prevent loss-aversion from being the only learned lesson of failure. Encourage risk-taking by providing a safe space to fail: https://youtu.be/lJs-RiPOKVY
Learning 'how to think' isn't exactly a goal for 6-8-year-olds. At this age, the focus should be on integration--learning to get the mind and body (and will or spirit) working together, being in the world. 'Thinking' isn't really the focus. Ages 6-8 also involve two separate developmental periods: a six-year-old is in a much different place than an 8-year-old.
I like how Waldorf approaches this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldorf_education#Developmenta...
Notice that 'thinking' isn't really a focus with Waldorf until around age 14.
I like how Waldorf approaches this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldorf_education#Developmenta...
Notice that 'thinking' isn't really a focus with Waldorf until around age 14.
I am not too familiar with the Waldorf system.
If we were to invert the question, How to teach kids not to think?
What would the answer look like?
If we were to invert the question, How to teach kids not to think?
What would the answer look like?
Isn't learning basic math and programming a good start for developing logical thinking? There are programming languages like Scratch[1] intended for teaching programming to very young kids. I never try it, but maybe it is a good start for developing logical thinking in young age.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scratch_%28programming_languag...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scratch_%28programming_languag...
I do teach Scratch, it allows for more creativity than other platforms. However, there are still some very abstract concepts that kids do not really get till they reach the 4th and 5th grades. 1st graders really struggled with it in my experience. If you have a parent with programming experience it is usually not an issue.
A great way is to encourage them to question the rules that they have to follow, including your own.
That's something they already do, and most enjoy doing. We just need to guide them to question the rules in a coherent manner.
Besides critical thinking and argumentation, by letting them question your own rule, the meta skill you're demonstrating here is intellectual humility, IMO the most prized quality of a great thinker.
That's something they already do, and most enjoy doing. We just need to guide them to question the rules in a coherent manner.
Besides critical thinking and argumentation, by letting them question your own rule, the meta skill you're demonstrating here is intellectual humility, IMO the most prized quality of a great thinker.
you dont teach them how to think, you give them space to make mistakes and learn from them, and when they lack a quality that they need to solve a problem, you wait until they exhaust themselves and then you give them a hint (not a direct one, but one bound to the domain they need to learn). you keep doing this. and you tell them to question their selves. and through experimentation you tech them not to take 'failure' as failure but to understand the bigger picture and that they are just confirming through failure. they are working on a problem. and they should never associate their self image with the thing they are studying. and tech them to study all sides to get the bigger picture. not just individual pieces. and have fun. if the kids not smiling or looking excited/anxious about the results. then something is not right. let them lead the course. you are just like a good psychologist. supposed to sit there and help them not to do stupid and dangerous stuff. but ultimately you let them self develop and grow at their own pace in their own way.
I don’t think one size fits all here. I have two kids in this age range and they respond to different approaches.
My daughter is very creative and loves to spin up ideas and stories. When she asks me a question about the universe, I throw it back at her.
“Daddy, why do flies have such thin wings? Why don’t they break?”
“Well, what do YOU think?”
She’ll then invent some explanations, we’ll have fun questioning them, and eventually look up some real answers.
My son is much more execution-minded. He usually asks questions because he wants to understand how to build something. With Legos. In Minecraft. Whatever. He’s less interested in creative word play and more interested in creative building. Sometimes I can use the same tricks as with my daughter. “How do you think it works?” With him, I can often reframe the question and make him grapple with his goal at a higher level.
“Sure, here’s how a gear box works. But what do you really want to accomplish here? Is there a better way to do this?”
I haven’t read any books, this just seems to work for us. In either case, it’s critical to encourage kids to ask questions, and to teach them how to ask effective questions.
My daughter is very creative and loves to spin up ideas and stories. When she asks me a question about the universe, I throw it back at her.
“Daddy, why do flies have such thin wings? Why don’t they break?”
“Well, what do YOU think?”
She’ll then invent some explanations, we’ll have fun questioning them, and eventually look up some real answers.
My son is much more execution-minded. He usually asks questions because he wants to understand how to build something. With Legos. In Minecraft. Whatever. He’s less interested in creative word play and more interested in creative building. Sometimes I can use the same tricks as with my daughter. “How do you think it works?” With him, I can often reframe the question and make him grapple with his goal at a higher level.
“Sure, here’s how a gear box works. But what do you really want to accomplish here? Is there a better way to do this?”
I haven’t read any books, this just seems to work for us. In either case, it’s critical to encourage kids to ask questions, and to teach them how to ask effective questions.
A similar question came up on the Less Wrong forums recently (more specifically focused on rational/critical thinking and scientific experimentation): https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/yF6FLgWnRdKMYpm9g/rationalit...
this is the first I have heard of this forum. Are there any other posts you recommend on there?
You can read "Harry Potter and the Method of rationality", by the author, it's a fun rewrite of Harry potter, and it's instructive as a bonus!
https://www.hpmor.com/
https://www.hpmor.com/
(Assuming you mean posts relevant to the topic here:) Since I don't have kids, this isn't something I've looked out for, so all I was able to find were a post[1] linked from the comments on the above link, and then two posts linked from there [2] [3]. The Parenting tag [4] might also be of some interest to you.
[1] https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/wSEGsjDPtSWkAtXce/teaching-r...
[2] https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/NAfZr8tHe5fPZyab4/bed-time-s...
[3] https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/ZhoyWrqXRShbee4bS/raising-nu...
[4] https://www.lesswrong.com/tag/parenting
[1] https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/wSEGsjDPtSWkAtXce/teaching-r...
[2] https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/NAfZr8tHe5fPZyab4/bed-time-s...
[3] https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/ZhoyWrqXRShbee4bS/raising-nu...
[4] https://www.lesswrong.com/tag/parenting
I have found the randomizer fan mods of classic SNES games to be wonderful teachers and logic and problem solving.
<proud papa incoming> My kid got to Ganon in Link to the Past Randomizer a week before his fifth birthday.
I see him applying the same type of logical processing - and readiness to deal with randomness in the world - throughout his play and behavior.
<proud papa incoming> My kid got to Ganon in Link to the Past Randomizer a week before his fifth birthday.
I see him applying the same type of logical processing - and readiness to deal with randomness in the world - throughout his play and behavior.
We try to encourage our kids to think/wonder at every opportunity.
When they ask a question, instead of giving them an answer, we just ask what they think first. Often that leads to a rather wild/creative prediction, something that comes out of their understanding of thew world, which although limited, is beautiful. We explore forward from there.
Generally, it helps to put kids in charge of their own life in whichever capacity they can at this point in time. If they know they can put on their own shoes, clean their own dishes, make their own breakfast ...etc, they also learn implicitly that they have full ownership of their thinking too.
To be honest, it's hard because very often it's easier for us, the parents, to just have the kids do what we need them to do, rather than what kids want to do, or think is the best way to do it. But, it's a tradeoff. When they get more freedom, they engulf in it.
My 2c.
When they ask a question, instead of giving them an answer, we just ask what they think first. Often that leads to a rather wild/creative prediction, something that comes out of their understanding of thew world, which although limited, is beautiful. We explore forward from there.
Generally, it helps to put kids in charge of their own life in whichever capacity they can at this point in time. If they know they can put on their own shoes, clean their own dishes, make their own breakfast ...etc, they also learn implicitly that they have full ownership of their thinking too.
To be honest, it's hard because very often it's easier for us, the parents, to just have the kids do what we need them to do, rather than what kids want to do, or think is the best way to do it. But, it's a tradeoff. When they get more freedom, they engulf in it.
My 2c.
The answer is to put them into situations where they have to think on their own. Also, lots of board games, word games, and role playing games. Always ask the child why something happened the way it did and then give them hints to think about. Read to them and ask them questions about what is happening in the book.
what are some of your favorite games?
To exercise pure thinking skills and empathy (as opposed to STEM, etc.) a great approach is to discuss philosophical/moral problems with the, treating their opinion seriously. A good book to use is: The Pig That Wants To Be Eaten”, but any example from daily life or movies can be used.
This is the first I have heard of The Pig That Wants To Be Eaten
thank you for the recommendation. What did you like most about this book?
thank you for the recommendation. What did you like most about this book?
It lists many dilemmas from various areas of life explained in a simple way with examples, so you don't lose the kid's attention. Some of them are classical ethical problems so you can take your discussion as deeps you want.
Thinking requires forming hypotheses and ideas, which is an act of the imagination. Probably the most important thing is to help stimulate a child's imagination and support their curiosity.
In a situation that requires thinking, encourage the child to come up with more than one idea. Praise every idea.
In a situation that requires thinking, encourage the child to come up with more than one idea. Praise every idea.
A lot of people have mentioned answering questions. We like to answer what we can and aren't afraid to say "I don't know, let's look it up." Then we read Wikipedia or watch a YouTube or talk about it.
So the first thing is not to squash their curiosity. The second is to train them how to find answers. Right now, we find the answers with our 6 year old but soon he will be able to do it himself.
Something people haven't really mentioned, and is hard to do as a parent, is to get out of the way. Give them a problem or a tool and let them get bored. Boredom is the scarcest resource we have nowadays and it is critical to let kids be bored so their natural curiosity can take over and lead them to do things that they want to do, not what they are told.
So the first thing is not to squash their curiosity. The second is to train them how to find answers. Right now, we find the answers with our 6 year old but soon he will be able to do it himself.
Something people haven't really mentioned, and is hard to do as a parent, is to get out of the way. Give them a problem or a tool and let them get bored. Boredom is the scarcest resource we have nowadays and it is critical to let kids be bored so their natural curiosity can take over and lead them to do things that they want to do, not what they are told.
Farnam Street has a big collection of videos focused on kids: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKj_FalLDOFtiAlsQwLTayQ/vid...
I often try to explain mental models to her using some of the material from FS. We have covered Inversion, Second Order Thinking, Occam's razor
Occam's razor is a really fantastic concept for a kid to learn early on!
I think there is one flaw to Occam's razor.
Who decides what the simplest explanation is?
Who decides what the simplest explanation is?
Awareness of one's self is a must before thinking about anything else: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-enquiry_(Ramana_Maharshi)
Let them explore the physical world/science/art/music on their own, then they will think on their own. If you put materials/devices in front of them, they won't be interacting with the physical world, but with someone else's thoughts.
A worthy goal. It is important to realize that kid's brains are still developing, so it's important to realize that and not get frustrated if they cannot yet perform at a more advanced level. I forget this sometimes myself so am mentioning it here.
Debate.
Learning how to represent both sides of an argument is both academically rigorous and opens kids to the idea that there are other sides.
You can do this at the dinner table, but also through formal debate clubs and classes. There are some doing this over zoom.
Learning how to represent both sides of an argument is both academically rigorous and opens kids to the idea that there are other sides.
You can do this at the dinner table, but also through formal debate clubs and classes. There are some doing this over zoom.
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Two quick book recommendations:
Learning how to learn for teens Getting things done (gtd) for teens
Learning how to learn for teens Getting things done (gtd) for teens
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To add on how do you teach adults to have a curious mind.
Listen to them, and follow where they lead you.
Listening is the key. So often we are tempted to dismiss what they say or to not place much thought on it.
How did they come up with their statement?
How did they come up with their statement?
I grew up in a very poor household where the emphasis was on getting good grades so you could go on to get a wel paying “job”.
Please don’t do that to your kids. If you have the means (not everyone does), check in with them on homework, for example. See what they’re learning about — and ask them questions about it. Show curiosity and interest. In my opinion, that is a good way to jump start your child’s curiosity. Help them understand the significance of what they’re learning - if you’re able to.
Ask them to question things. I grew up in a household where I took textbooks and papers as all being fundamentally correct and true, and that’s not always the case. Skepticism is a good thing. Encourage your children not to take things at face value but dive a bit deeper to understand if something really makes sense or if it’s even true.
Please don’t do that to your kids. If you have the means (not everyone does), check in with them on homework, for example. See what they’re learning about — and ask them questions about it. Show curiosity and interest. In my opinion, that is a good way to jump start your child’s curiosity. Help them understand the significance of what they’re learning - if you’re able to.
Ask them to question things. I grew up in a household where I took textbooks and papers as all being fundamentally correct and true, and that’s not always the case. Skepticism is a good thing. Encourage your children not to take things at face value but dive a bit deeper to understand if something really makes sense or if it’s even true.
Strategy board games, not just go and chess but more modern ones like Pipeline, Nevsky, Lisboa to mention 3 radically different games) will both engage the mind of young kids and allow for them to build mental maps at their own pace. look for medium-heavy boardgames on boargamegeek for you to play with your kids, and the two of you can develop the kids taste and cognitive abilities at the same time while having fun.
I do not recmend the above games to 6-8yo, buy something like Azul Summer Pavilion might be up their alley.
I do not recmend the above games to 6-8yo, buy something like Azul Summer Pavilion might be up their alley.
Have you ever heard of this game called Cat Crimes?
No, and it doesn't seem have a BGG page either.
I am curious what material or activities you use for kids ages 6-8 for helping them to learn to think on their own.