Sorry, we replaced that old technology, “see-through glass”(twitter.com)
twitter.com
Sorry, we replaced that old technology, “see-through glass”
https://twitter.com/RunDaltonRun/status/1408507323031592964
396 comments
2 years later, Amazon discontinues updates on the toaster. No one notices, but it still toasts. 8 years later, people hack them and cause them to burn down some houses. Of course, it was the owner's fault - they were running a discontinued toaster that wasn't receiving software updates anymore.
This sounds eerily like the WD hard drive debacle going on right now.
Yeah, and the fault clearly is that, after discontinuing updates, they still supported the device in their cloud. They should have bricked the devices, removing write support ;-)
I’m not sure whether to add that smiley here. That would have been a big middle finger to their customers, but the alternative they chose turned out to be worse for many customers. Maybe, the rule should be “if a product requires a subscription, the product should be free”?
In WD’s case, it surprised me their cloud still supported a device they stopped supporting in 2015.
I’m not sure whether to add that smiley here. That would have been a big middle finger to their customers, but the alternative they chose turned out to be worse for many customers. Maybe, the rule should be “if a product requires a subscription, the product should be free”?
In WD’s case, it surprised me their cloud still supported a device they stopped supporting in 2015.
WD's My Toaster
"We used to toast your data, now we can toast your bread!*"
* Contains forward-looking statements. These statements are not guarantees of future performance and undue reliance should not be placed on them. Such forward-looking statements necessarily involve known and unknown risks and uncertainties, which may cause actual performance and financial results in future periods to differ materially from any projections of future performance or result expressed or implied by such forward-looking statements.
Although forward-looking statements contained in this presentation are based upon what management of the Company believes are reasonable assumptions, there can be no assurance that forward-looking statements will prove to be accurate, as actual results and future events could differ materially from those anticipated in such statements. The Company undertakes no obligation to update forward-looking statements if circumstances or management’s estimates or opinions should change except as required by applicable securities laws. The reader is cautioned not to place undue reliance on forward-looking statements.
* Contains forward-looking statements. These statements are not guarantees of future performance and undue reliance should not be placed on them. Such forward-looking statements necessarily involve known and unknown risks and uncertainties, which may cause actual performance and financial results in future periods to differ materially from any projections of future performance or result expressed or implied by such forward-looking statements.
Although forward-looking statements contained in this presentation are based upon what management of the Company believes are reasonable assumptions, there can be no assurance that forward-looking statements will prove to be accurate, as actual results and future events could differ materially from those anticipated in such statements. The Company undertakes no obligation to update forward-looking statements if circumstances or management’s estimates or opinions should change except as required by applicable securities laws. The reader is cautioned not to place undue reliance on forward-looking statements.
WD My Toaster Live!
The My Toaster is just a regular USB toaster.
The My Toaster is just a regular USB toaster.
Thankfully my seven year old iToaster hasn’t succumbed to the same fate.
Yet.
Yet.
The iTailer will shutdown all servers for that model on Jan 10, 2021, rendering it a glorified paperweight. Sorry.
They said the next newer model of that will no longer receive updates at the same time.
They said the next newer model of that will no longer receive updates at the same time.
Jan 10, 2021 - back in the good old days when see-through glass was still the norm.
5 years later they are unsupported, Amazon gets hacked, and all your bread gets deleted.
You forgot the part where it refuses to toast your unlicensed bread.
For those unaware, this is exactly the main point of the story "Unauthorized Bread" by Cory Doctorow. I liked the story and would recommend it.
A link to an exerpt: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-...
(The excerpt contains the story in its entirety. It's excerpted from a book that consists of multiple stories.)
Radicalized (2019). Four novellas, including the bread one. I just happened to have read it last week; it's a solid collection of stories. Model Minority from that collection is a good story as well.
That was a great story. Thank you for linking it.
Seconded. Well worth reading.
Thank you for sharing this!
Also the part where the toaster version is outdated and it won't start toasting before it's up to date.
It's because it mines Bitcoins to generate heat, so it must be connected to the Bitcoin network.
Also the part where the toaster version is 6 years out of date and someone gains root access and deletes all your data
Every slice has unique nooks and crannies to create a 2D pattern, allowing for DRM and personalization!
…Are they selling NFTs for the finished, unique works of “art”?
Toast is licensed, not sold. You are given a perpetual non-exclusive license for use of resultant toast. Upon termination of contract, you are to return all toast in its original form to the licensing entity (whoever it is this week).
Non-fungible toast?
I'd buy toast that can't grow fungus.
I'm sure there are FDA-approved additives that'll achieve that.
[deleted]
Personalization so they can never be returned, right?
---
Pepperidge Farms.... D: NOOOOOO
https://www.heb.com/product-detail/pepperidge-farm-original-...
My grandmother made those in her Sunbeam toaster before loading them with room-temperature butter and Laura Scudder's smooth peanut butter. (Yes, my grandmother kept butter at room temperature but refrigerated the eggs. Go figure... grandmothers.)
---
Pepperidge Farms.... D: NOOOOOO
https://www.heb.com/product-detail/pepperidge-farm-original-...
My grandmother made those in her Sunbeam toaster before loading them with room-temperature butter and Laura Scudder's smooth peanut butter. (Yes, my grandmother kept butter at room temperature but refrigerated the eggs. Go figure... grandmothers.)
> My grandmother made those in her Sunbeam toaster before loading them with room-temperature butter and Laura Scudder's smooth peanut butter. (Yes, my grandmother kept butter at room temperature but refrigerated the eggs. Go figure... grandmothers.)
American commercial eggs (and this has been true for a long time) need refrigeration because thet are washed, which reduces surface pathogens but compromises the eggs natural resistance to environmental pathogens and spoilage. Meanwhile, in most climates, butter is safe out of refrigeration. So, your grandmother was doing it right.
American commercial eggs (and this has been true for a long time) need refrigeration because thet are washed, which reduces surface pathogens but compromises the eggs natural resistance to environmental pathogens and spoilage. Meanwhile, in most climates, butter is safe out of refrigeration. So, your grandmother was doing it right.
Get yourself one of these: https://www.butterbell.com/
We buy the single brick of European butter for toast and daily use. It stays in the butter bell on the counter. We also buy sticks of unsalted butter for cooking and baking. Those live in the fridge until needed. Thaw on the counter in the morning if you need it soft when cooking.
We buy the single brick of European butter for toast and daily use. It stays in the butter bell on the counter. We also buy sticks of unsalted butter for cooking and baking. Those live in the fridge until needed. Thaw on the counter in the morning if you need it soft when cooking.
How you gonna spread cold butter? :)
Yeah, standard American kitchen: butter on the counter (in a semi-airtight butter tray) and eggs in the fridge.
I have never seen anyone in America keep their butter on counter and not in the fridge. I have lived in 7 states in both coasts and upper Midwest.
Generally, I assumed if it’s in the refrigerator in grocery store (which butter is) then it goes in refrigerator at home.
Generally, I assumed if it’s in the refrigerator in grocery store (which butter is) then it goes in refrigerator at home.
You don't keep all the butter on the counter, just one stick in a butter dish at room temp so it's spreadable.
I assume that's what you're talking about. Keeping the butter dish in the fridge at all times would be pretty strange--butter is good for weeks at room temp, far longer than a single stick is likely to last.
I assume that's what you're talking about. Keeping the butter dish in the fridge at all times would be pretty strange--butter is good for weeks at room temp, far longer than a single stick is likely to last.
City folk vs country folk? Wagering a guess, chilled butter won't squash during handling so manufacturers, transporters, and retailers keep it cold? I think it's odd to keep open sticks of butter in the fridge. Spreading cold butter is a pain. Ghee is seen in stores outside of refrigerated sections.
Butter starts to go off after a few weeks at room temp, which is plenty for a single stick in the butter dish at home but mildly inconvenient for shippers and retailers, or people who like to buy staple ingredients in bulk. It lasts for many months refrigerated, though.
One cube goes in the tray, the rest stays in the fridge. Otherwise making toast for breakfast would be impossible because you'd have to wait an eternity for the butter to soften, at which point you'd be late for work/school/etc.
How do you spread the butter then?
Or do you mean something else than butter?
I grew up on a farm and the first first 15 or so years of the life ordinary butter was the onlh alternative.
It had to be kept in a jar at the counter or it would become unusable.
Or do you mean something else than butter?
I grew up on a farm and the first first 15 or so years of the life ordinary butter was the onlh alternative.
It had to be kept in a jar at the counter or it would become unusable.
Take out the butter you need beforehand to thaw. Or I’ve seen people microwave for 5 seconds. My family stopped using butter outside of occasional uses years ago though due to saturated fats.
Generally, I see people using the spreadable alternative to butter though.
Generally, I see people using the spreadable alternative to butter though.
Thin slices, then spread those.
I don't spread it. I put it on like a slice of cheese. So I prefer it to be really cold as it's easier to slice. Damn, I love butter on hot toast XD
[deleted]
> You forgot the part where it refuses to toast your unlicensed bread.
The RFID chips make the toast taste better!
The RFID chips make the toast taste better!
A QR code is baked on the backside on it in the bakery. People with too much time (and bread) on their hands soon figure out which spots you need to darken with a clothes iron so the checksum still matches and the toaster accepts the slice.
The toast is coated with special chemicals which will cause the body of anyone whose genetic code does not match the license owner to reject it.
>The toast is coated with special chemicals which will cause the body of anyone whose genetic code does not match the license owner to reject it.
welcome to paradise!
welcome to paradise!
I self-chip my homemade gluten-free bread with Doritos Flamin' Hot Limon.
Later, when it's discovered that the toaster occasionally catches on fire, users are encouraged to pay $9.99 per month for "Toaster Plus," which causes an alarm to play before the fire starts, so that you know to get the extinguisher.
Then they let you customize the alarm noise, so that you can choose how to be alerted of the future house fire. Soon, companies get rich selling $3 "toaster fire ringtones."
Eventually, even after fire-less toasters are "invented," people prefer the old, "still catching on fire" ones, since "toasters have always worked that way."
Then they let you customize the alarm noise, so that you can choose how to be alerted of the future house fire. Soon, companies get rich selling $3 "toaster fire ringtones."
Eventually, even after fire-less toasters are "invented," people prefer the old, "still catching on fire" ones, since "toasters have always worked that way."
This was also after a massive recall due to an incident with a high end Peloton toaster and a small child. All of the $9,000 FedBucks™ units were recalled and the "Just Toast" feature removed
Toaster Plus sounds a bit like Xerox's "Scorch Eliminator" from the 1950s, which was a small fire extinguisher for when the photocopier overheated.
Toaster plus is 5.99 if you subject yourself to an add prior to toasting.
Note that our Face Detection technology will be ensuring that you pay attention during the full duration of the ad.
"A watched pot never boils, but watched toast finishes faster." Black box testing has found that the toaster's heating coils are throttled when eye tracking doesn't find anybody watching the ad.
It's like the Xbox Verification Can story.
I enjoyed reading your story.
All the while I couldn't help but want to share how good pan-fried/toasted bread is. It's the butter of course, just generously butter up a pan, spread the bread so it soaks up the butter. Takes a little longer, but you also get to feel like a cook.
and no ads
All the while I couldn't help but want to share how good pan-fried/toasted bread is. It's the butter of course, just generously butter up a pan, spread the bread so it soaks up the butter. Takes a little longer, but you also get to feel like a cook.
and no ads
Stovetops haven't been a thing in most homes in over a decade. Everyone either heats up frozen meals or "cooks" separated ingredients in a special MealWave oven. True chefs are underrated for some reason that I still don't fully understand.
Luckily the world is burning, so many people just cook on the sidewalks. The smart cooks learned that the solar panels get pretty damn hot, so they've been hijacking the roofs. Electricity prices now vary with meal timings (as well as everything else).
Luckily the world is burning, so many people just cook on the sidewalks. The smart cooks learned that the solar panels get pretty damn hot, so they've been hijacking the roofs. Electricity prices now vary with meal timings (as well as everything else).
You forget the Amish.
And Lehman’s Non-Electric Catalog is looking better than ever.
And Lehman’s Non-Electric Catalog is looking better than ever.
Citation?
Every home I've ever seen has a cook top. Everyone has pots and pans. What am I missing?
Every home I've ever seen has a cook top. Everyone has pots and pans. What am I missing?
It's a fictional story about the future, like the one starting this thread. Took me a second too.
I read the same exact thing here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27638473
The future life and times of consumer us.
Pretty much everything, sadly.
> and no ads
Is this not an ad for pan-fried bread?
Is this not an ad for pan-fried bread?
I use to be so enthusiastic about technology. Now I almost dread the next innovation for how it will inevitably find it’s major use case in advertising. I swear I’m turning Luddite.
What solidified this in me was when Microsoft announced Trusted Computing, some 15 years ago[0]. I was scarred with the fact that technology enables so much abuse and that the companies will spin it until it sounds like a plus for the customer. And later, it basically became the Zeitgeist. We kind of returned to remotely managed thin clients, instead of Computing really being Personal.
[0] https://www.mcpressonline.com/programming-other/microsoft/mi...
[0] https://www.mcpressonline.com/programming-other/microsoft/mi...
You're not alone.
As a 28 year old in tech for the last 7 years, I am definitely a Luddite.
Its heartbreaking some of the most talented minds in software engineering are just making ads appear.
The internet is an ad network with content at this point.
As a 28 year old in tech for the last 7 years, I am definitely a Luddite.
Its heartbreaking some of the most talented minds in software engineering are just making ads appear.
The internet is an ad network with content at this point.
Smart people have failed to outsmart business people.
That's only the first iteration. Next, they'll only load individual packed proprietary toast-pods. Budget third-party pods will work, until the manufacturer rolls out a silent firmware update to brick your toaster, on the grounds of violating the EULA
You forgot the part where this toaster is free. Nobody except DIY hobbyists and tinfoil privacy weirdos actually pay for a toaster in 2050.
This is perhaps the existential crisis that engineering in all its forms has to deal with. Much of the Western ethos and certainly engineering culture in general is about making life better. Instead, our only task now is making it more profitable.
Fact is probably worse than fiction here:
Samsung fridges have machine vision systems to catalog their contents, then combine the data with data from samsung smart TVs. That way, they can be joined against your tv watching habits. This is all to better target ads.
If you disable it, then it breaks the demand response function on the fridge, indirectly killing polar bears and other living things.
They cost as much (or more) than non-connected versions.
Samsung fridges have machine vision systems to catalog their contents, then combine the data with data from samsung smart TVs. That way, they can be joined against your tv watching habits. This is all to better target ads.
If you disable it, then it breaks the demand response function on the fridge, indirectly killing polar bears and other living things.
They cost as much (or more) than non-connected versions.
Got a source for this? A quick search didn’t turn up anything for me.
They’re really years ahead of the pack in this villainy, so I don’t doubt that it’s true.
They’re really years ahead of the pack in this villainy, so I don’t doubt that it’s true.
https://venturebeat.com/2019/01/11/samsung-is-using-computer... says
”There is no planned release date for Bixby Vision for refrigerators, a company spokesperson told VentureBeat. It’s more of a concept than a feature today”
On the other hand, that’s from over 2 years ago, and https://www.samsung.com/us/support/answer/ANS00062803/ says
“Did you ever think the day would come when you could talk to your refrigerator, and it would actually listen? With Bixby on Family Hub, you can ask to see the contents of your fridge or even start playing music without lifting a finger.”
So, the camera is there. Whether it has machine learning to detect contents and connects that with you tv, I wouldn’t know.
”There is no planned release date for Bixby Vision for refrigerators, a company spokesperson told VentureBeat. It’s more of a concept than a feature today”
On the other hand, that’s from over 2 years ago, and https://www.samsung.com/us/support/answer/ANS00062803/ says
“Did you ever think the day would come when you could talk to your refrigerator, and it would actually listen? With Bixby on Family Hub, you can ask to see the contents of your fridge or even start playing music without lifting a finger.”
So, the camera is there. Whether it has machine learning to detect contents and connects that with you tv, I wouldn’t know.
The picture in the article is so laughable. 6 plates each with one perfect item, left uncovered for the camera. My fridge is absolutely crammed with items, almost all of which are in a Tupperware or plastic bag, or shoved into the crisper drawer. Leftovers, chopped veg, etc. But it's okay that this is a hard CV challenge … there is no useful feature to be created here anyways.
You would have to ask the polar bears.
Except they all got killed by people who tampered with the safety features in their refrigerators.
Except they all got killed by people who tampered with the safety features in their refrigerators.
The ads unfortunately are all for mobile game scams, which have little to no correlation with the contents of your fridge
WiFi password? Even by 2035ish it’d come with integrated mobile data so the user won’t have to worry about ensuring it has consistent network access to the mothership.
Of course! It'll come preconfigured with your Amazon account, so it'll automatically integrate with other Amazon Home appliances that you have.
Except the bread bin your mother gifted you for Christmas is a Google device, and the two do not work together. As such your toaster is always adding a reminder to buy bread onto your Amazon Fresh grocery list. Your fridge is constantly reminding you about this, whenever you are more than 2m away, and it is in "suggested products" mode.
Compared to the adverts you saw before - often for processed junk food even though you are trying really hard to be on a diet - you actually find the bread adverts a relief and less distracting.
Except the bread bin your mother gifted you for Christmas is a Google device, and the two do not work together. As such your toaster is always adding a reminder to buy bread onto your Amazon Fresh grocery list. Your fridge is constantly reminding you about this, whenever you are more than 2m away, and it is in "suggested products" mode.
Compared to the adverts you saw before - often for processed junk food even though you are trying really hard to be on a diet - you actually find the bread adverts a relief and less distracting.
So I noticed this week that my Canon printer was able to connect to my "secure" Wi-Fi during its initial setup without at any point prompting for a password. How worried should I be? Did it steal the keys from my computer?
That... sounds really really odd. Are you sure you (or someone else in your household) didn’t put in the key at some point? How did you notice that it connected? Which model number? What kind of WiFi security?
I'm sure, because I took it out of the box and did the first time setup. WiFi is standard WPA2. Printer is a Canon Pixma TR4527.
Here's the process, for those interested. And I did work hard to see if there's any other way.
1. You download the printer "install software" from Canon's website.
2. Run the installer. It makes you read a long legal agreement, including that you won't use the printer for any antisocial purposes.
3. And then asks for your permission to install monitoring software to collect data from your printer. Probably including whatever confidential documents you print? Apparently in China all this stuff gets sent automatically to a "research firm". Oh yeah, and if you don't agree, it installs the software anyway but they say they won't use it.
4. The printer initially acts as its own WiFi access point. Your PC disconnects from its router and connects to the printer. What if your neighbour has the same printer? Who knows. Maybe you'd connect to that too.
5. The PC then connects back to the router's WiFi network... And the printer does 's too. Somehow. Never gave it the WiFi password. But I'm guessing it just asked my PC very politely.
Scary stuff.
Here's the process, for those interested. And I did work hard to see if there's any other way.
1. You download the printer "install software" from Canon's website.
2. Run the installer. It makes you read a long legal agreement, including that you won't use the printer for any antisocial purposes.
3. And then asks for your permission to install monitoring software to collect data from your printer. Probably including whatever confidential documents you print? Apparently in China all this stuff gets sent automatically to a "research firm". Oh yeah, and if you don't agree, it installs the software anyway but they say they won't use it.
4. The printer initially acts as its own WiFi access point. Your PC disconnects from its router and connects to the printer. What if your neighbour has the same printer? Who knows. Maybe you'd connect to that too.
5. The PC then connects back to the router's WiFi network... And the printer does 's too. Somehow. Never gave it the WiFi password. But I'm guessing it just asked my PC very politely.
Scary stuff.
This is already happening. Expect it to be mainstream in a few years.
The toaster is free, subsidized by burning advertisements into your toast.
Nah, it's just a bit cheaper until non-ad supported toaster makers go out of business, and then you both pay, and watch ads. Like with cable television.
It won't be free, it will just be subsidized - the exact amount the unnecessary hardware cost.
Animated ads where the skip button doesn't work.
Unless you apply Skippy™ Brand peanut butter to the toast.
The ads are all encoded as animated Jifs™.
A 3 year old account that's been waiting for this moment.
Ever read Ubik? I think the only thing missing is that it should charge your for each piece of toast you make and remit the payment to either the manufacturer or your landlord. If you are behind on rent, you can’t make toast.
They sure do not make them like they used to!
The obligatory Technology Connections link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OfxlSG6q5Y
The obligatory Technology Connections link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OfxlSG6q5Y
It’s fiction like this that makes me less afraid of a reduced life span.
The opening of the Philip K Dick story Ubiq has a scene very much like this.
Cool. It reminds me of one of the characters from Shooting Fish (1997) who has a penchant for "psychoanalyzing" mid-century electric appliances so he can repair them. And, Brazil with needless complexity everywhere.
So I just hit up Amazon and found this:
https://www.amazon.com/Revolution-Cooking-R180-High-Speed-St...
Not sure if we have to wait until 2050
Not sure if we have to wait until 2050
AI enabled toaster: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRq_SAuQDec
(from Red Dwarf)
(from Red Dwarf)
Man at that point I'd just make my own and keep a fire extinguisher handy. Making stuff hot with electricity isn't exactly rocket science.
But can I cancel my pro subscription without calling a support number? If so I may accept my dispotian fate with Grace and resignation.
You will be billed only 19.99/month for life and continue receiving the complementary Modern Strokers' catalog at no additional charge.
Edit: or you can switch to The Daily Cannibal. The freedom of choice is yours to enjoy.
Edit: or you can switch to The Daily Cannibal. The freedom of choice is yours to enjoy.
The most unrealistic part is saying it took a few hours for it to arrive. I think delivery will be much faster by then.
The Oculus VR goggles (who has a TV anymore?) serving you Facebook ads also has attention sensors (hey it's already on your head, so it was easy to add that 5 cent brain-wave sensor!), and if your brain ever thinks "Hey, that looks interesting", they'd just tell the poor Deliveroo "contractor" to drop off the device at your house, for a "Free 7 day trial. Throw it in trash if you're not interested!".
Don’t give ideas - someone will actually start a startup and we’ll all suffer. Your 2050 will become 2025.
Late to comment, but couldn't resist the comparison with Ubik. The door that refuses to open until the protagonist deposits a coin, and threatens him when he begins to bypass it, could well be the AI toaster that berates you for not using approved bread.
Why can’t you just crumple some wires and make a toaster yourself?
(Because outlets require certified chips with power-certificate-chain validation on both sides of a power cord, if you ever get your hands on such an old-fashioned hardware.)
(Because outlets require certified chips with power-certificate-chain validation on both sides of a power cord, if you ever get your hands on such an old-fashioned hardware.)
This sounds like one of Cory Doctorow’s short stories in his Radicalized book.
The is reminds me of the centrifugal bumblepuppy in brave new world.
It’s a contraption that exists because there a rule that each new version of a thing must consume more resources than what can before.
You know, for the economy.
It’s a contraption that exists because there a rule that each new version of a thing must consume more resources than what can before.
You know, for the economy.
Thank you, it's the most depressing thing I've read in a week . However, I find it wildly optimistic this won't be our world before the 30s are over.
This made me sad.
By 2050, the out of control inflation has made bread too expensive for everyone except the top 1%. Toasters sold to normal folks scan barcodes on bread slices to check if the bakery is part of their bread insurance network. After playing the 5 minute ad, your toaster happily announces that your bakery is no longer covered, and asks if you want to make a $350 co-pay, with "Sign Up" and "More Details" buttons.
Relevant username.
(thanks for your dystopia, they sometimes show up on HN and I love them. This one is very well written)
(thanks for your dystopia, they sometimes show up on HN and I love them. This one is very well written)
I'll put this up in my favorite short stories section, along with the Verification Can and the Libertarian Police Department[0].
[0] https://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/l-p-d-libertari...
[0] https://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/l-p-d-libertari...
Avoid the loginwall at https://archive.is/j65k3
This reminds me of Cory Doctorow's story "Radicalized." https://craphound.com/category/radicalized-full/
Not to worry, we'll be in WW3 by then, as states try to respond to mass upheavals caused by our failure to stop catastrophic climate change. Toast will not be a primary concern.
come on now, it wouldn't be a red "Go" button, it would be "slide finger downwards to start toasting"
A series of photos of ever darkening toast. Swipe right when you find one that looks appetizing.
And then you have to get to know the quirks of your particular toaster to know in which direction you need to adjust by two shades to get what you actually want.
[deleted]
no camera on the toaster? no dystopian enough.
This is suck
I don't want an ESP32 or an ARM in my toaster.
I don't want bluetooth in my toaster. That shit is hard to clean.
I don't want a flashing OLED emoji on my toaster judging my diet. I do plenty of that myself: flashing emoji.
I don't want a toaster with a "personality." I want it to toast, only toast, and nothing but the toast, so help its electronic soul.
Sunbeam Radiant Control: ride or die. Anything made after the 60's is junk by definition.
I don't want bluetooth in my toaster. That shit is hard to clean.
I don't want a flashing OLED emoji on my toaster judging my diet. I do plenty of that myself: flashing emoji.
I don't want a toaster with a "personality." I want it to toast, only toast, and nothing but the toast, so help its electronic soul.
Sunbeam Radiant Control: ride or die. Anything made after the 60's is junk by definition.
I do not blame cooler screen for selling this technology to anyone. But I want everyone to consider how much it takes to bring about a technology like this to a grocery store.
If this is any of the big chain groceries, the manager doesn't even have the authority to put a sticker on the glass door. This was vetted by hundreds of people and none of them thought... glass?
Business class tickets were purchased, hotels were booked, months of back and forth, daily meetings. Hundreds of thousands were spent on pilot programs like this one. Still no one thought... glass?
In my opinion, it's a silly idea. But I applaud the person who had this silly idea, built a company around it, got deals with screens, door, glass, and cameras manufacturing companies, and then convinced a grocery chain to buy this for their store.
I would really, really love to have been in that sales pitch meeting.
Edit: What bothers me the most about this, is that it will actually work. Any surface where eyes may fall on, will be replaced with an ad.
If this is any of the big chain groceries, the manager doesn't even have the authority to put a sticker on the glass door. This was vetted by hundreds of people and none of them thought... glass?
Business class tickets were purchased, hotels were booked, months of back and forth, daily meetings. Hundreds of thousands were spent on pilot programs like this one. Still no one thought... glass?
In my opinion, it's a silly idea. But I applaud the person who had this silly idea, built a company around it, got deals with screens, door, glass, and cameras manufacturing companies, and then convinced a grocery chain to buy this for their store.
I would really, really love to have been in that sales pitch meeting.
Edit: What bothers me the most about this, is that it will actually work. Any surface where eyes may fall on, will be replaced with an ad.
It's an ad platform plain and simple; that's the whole value proposition. So I imagine every pitch, every meeting was about that. And every store that uses it will be doing it to get a cut of the ad revenue. It's true that it's lousy at being glass, but that's like saying smallpox blankets were a lousy way to make friends with Native Americans. The shittiness of it, in other words, was the goal all along, and any resemblance to glass or to helping you in any way was just a concession made to conceal its true nature and hopefully get you to accept it.
Except that moving inventory, and to a lesser extent generating repeat business, is more critical than ancillary ad revenue. If The screens don’t work or the ads aren’t effective, and I don’t open the door to get those high-margin also-bought drinks than they definitely do not achieve the store’s goal.
The shoppers are already in the store, presumably to buy from their list. Now the store gets a cut of an ad and the profit from the sale it makes. The digital delivery is going to be amazing for A/B testing of ads because they are going to have near immediate feedback. It's pretty clever in a dystopian hellscape kind of way.
Counterpoint: all else being equal, I'd rather not have these because I think they'd be annoying, so if one of my local grocery stores were to install them I would then give more of my business to the other (largely interchangeable) ones going forward.
You're right that I wouldn't rage quit and leave without doing my shopping the first time I saw these, but I also might not be back. Sure, I'd learn to live with it if every grocery store were to get on board, but in that scenario not having them would become a major competitive advantage.
You're right that I wouldn't rage quit and leave without doing my shopping the first time I saw these, but I also might not be back. Sure, I'd learn to live with it if every grocery store were to get on board, but in that scenario not having them would become a major competitive advantage.
Some people really care about pricing, others don't.
There are 'bargin' stores in my area, and higher end stores. The higher end stores have lots more bio stuff to buy, and other fancy goods, but also stock major brands of everything else.
Even though the product is the same, the pricing is 15% average more expensive for those common products. I suspect they get away with it, because you're already there, and I never see a full shopping cart there.
The also have baggers. The bargin store does not.
My point? The bargin store might shave even more off, with enough ads. And those people buying full carts?
Might be even happier with the savings.
I think as with many things, those struggling with money can't care one iota (not don't, but can't), and just do what saves the most, no matter the cost to society, or themselves.
Survival first. Rent first. Savings first.
There are 'bargin' stores in my area, and higher end stores. The higher end stores have lots more bio stuff to buy, and other fancy goods, but also stock major brands of everything else.
Even though the product is the same, the pricing is 15% average more expensive for those common products. I suspect they get away with it, because you're already there, and I never see a full shopping cart there.
The also have baggers. The bargin store does not.
My point? The bargin store might shave even more off, with enough ads. And those people buying full carts?
Might be even happier with the savings.
I think as with many things, those struggling with money can't care one iota (not don't, but can't), and just do what saves the most, no matter the cost to society, or themselves.
Survival first. Rent first. Savings first.
Makes sense. As I said, all else being equal I'd rather not have these. Presented with a situation like Kindle devices, in which the ad-supported item is cheaper, the choice is a little harder.
Thinking more about the product, there's probably also a long-term vision wherein it becomes more useful than it is today. e.g. maybe it automatically handles tracking quantities and greys out the item photo when it's out (and alerts them to restock), shows prices in a more user-friendly way than regular shelves, makes promotions more prominent (but hopefully not too obnoxious), slightly reduces labor costs (by automatically updating prices), and allows various user interactivity such as clicking an item to see metadata like nutrition and ingredients. It's easy to make fun of something at an early stage when we're just seeing the tip of the iceberg, but 10 years from now this may become a repeat of the infamous Dropbox thread.
Thinking more about the product, there's probably also a long-term vision wherein it becomes more useful than it is today. e.g. maybe it automatically handles tracking quantities and greys out the item photo when it's out (and alerts them to restock), shows prices in a more user-friendly way than regular shelves, makes promotions more prominent (but hopefully not too obnoxious), slightly reduces labor costs (by automatically updating prices), and allows various user interactivity such as clicking an item to see metadata like nutrition and ingredients. It's easy to make fun of something at an early stage when we're just seeing the tip of the iceberg, but 10 years from now this may become a repeat of the infamous Dropbox thread.
You can buy eink shelf labels that have radios in them for the self updating pricing and promotional pricing features. Not sure if they make ones that can handle being in fridge/freezer though (condensation is huge problem in those environments).
I've heard of these, but never seen them in use (Quebec). Probably due to risks, as local law says (when using barcodes, without prices on each prooduct):
Rules of the Accurate Pricing Policy If the pricing error involves a product that costs $10 or less, the product is given to the customer free of charge.
If the pricing error involves a product that costs more than $10, the merchant must sell the item at the advertised price and give the consumer a $10 discount.
If the same pricing error occurs for identical products during the same transaction, the merchant must sell each product at the advertised price, but the $10 discount only applies to one product.
Mistaken updates, or hacking, could be quite costly. Maybe this risk is just perception, but...
Rules of the Accurate Pricing Policy If the pricing error involves a product that costs $10 or less, the product is given to the customer free of charge.
If the pricing error involves a product that costs more than $10, the merchant must sell the item at the advertised price and give the consumer a $10 discount.
If the same pricing error occurs for identical products during the same transaction, the merchant must sell each product at the advertised price, but the $10 discount only applies to one product.
Mistaken updates, or hacking, could be quite costly. Maybe this risk is just perception, but...
We've grown up and shopped in a time without these. But the long game is different. If these become ubiquitous or even just common, I'd bet few people care after a couple generations. For example, imagine how ugly telephone poles were to people when first built. But I, having grown up with them everywhere, don't even notice them. They're background noise.
Of course, I'm not thinking this ad-glass company is really playing a long game. They've just happened to move a piece earlier than most.
Of course, I'm not thinking this ad-glass company is really playing a long game. They've just happened to move a piece earlier than most.
"The shoppers are already in the store, presumably to buy from their list. "
This isn't really how it works.
If it worked that way then lighting, music, display organization, cleanliness, shelf space, brand, packaging etc. 'would not matter'.
All of those things matter, immensely, at any real scale.
The kinds of comments I'm seeing here are a little bit uncomfortable in this regard, indicate a kind of lack of self-awareness as to consumer (i.e. our own) behaviours.
This is just one of any number of studies [1]
THE EFFECT OF SHELF DISPLAY ON PURCHASING DECISION
"The final results show that, even though the students know that they should act like rational buyers who choose products according to their intrinsic value, when describing how they act in real situations, they admit to behaving differently, in the sense that they are influenced in one way or another by marketing policies ..."
This is not revelatory or controversial, we've known this for a long time.
These 'fancy displays' have a very obvious advantage purely in terms of their clarity and impact, and of course the reduce pain of having to constantly tweak tags and pricing.
Distracting advertising and any kind of privacy invasion would be a drawback obviously. As would possibly the cost.
But this looks like a really obvious opportunity to test for retail.
My worry would be not so much any of the stated issues here, but that there would be a new kind of war for retail space and that brands would bid on the size of their placements on the screen, as opposed to their slot on the shelf. Just ugly and unnecessary operational overhead.
[1] https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c...
This isn't really how it works.
If it worked that way then lighting, music, display organization, cleanliness, shelf space, brand, packaging etc. 'would not matter'.
All of those things matter, immensely, at any real scale.
The kinds of comments I'm seeing here are a little bit uncomfortable in this regard, indicate a kind of lack of self-awareness as to consumer (i.e. our own) behaviours.
This is just one of any number of studies [1]
THE EFFECT OF SHELF DISPLAY ON PURCHASING DECISION
"The final results show that, even though the students know that they should act like rational buyers who choose products according to their intrinsic value, when describing how they act in real situations, they admit to behaving differently, in the sense that they are influenced in one way or another by marketing policies ..."
This is not revelatory or controversial, we've known this for a long time.
These 'fancy displays' have a very obvious advantage purely in terms of their clarity and impact, and of course the reduce pain of having to constantly tweak tags and pricing.
Distracting advertising and any kind of privacy invasion would be a drawback obviously. As would possibly the cost.
But this looks like a really obvious opportunity to test for retail.
My worry would be not so much any of the stated issues here, but that there would be a new kind of war for retail space and that brands would bid on the size of their placements on the screen, as opposed to their slot on the shelf. Just ugly and unnecessary operational overhead.
[1] https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c...
Don't know about the other regions where LIDL opened shop, but in southern Europe they've made a killing by avoiding all these optimization rules.
Turns out there's a huge chunk of the population who cannot waste a single cent on what marketing dept has to say
Turns out there's a huge chunk of the population who cannot waste a single cent on what marketing dept has to say
The practices I described above generally improve sales, not reduce them.
The notion of 'consumers can't afford' doesn't really make a lot of sense.
The marginal cost of most of these things is very small.
In places where people are super price sensitive, maybe, but most people are not that.
Most people have some marginal flexibility which means an openness to buy things that can provide them more value.
The notion of 'consumers can't afford' doesn't really make a lot of sense.
The marginal cost of most of these things is very small.
In places where people are super price sensitive, maybe, but most people are not that.
Most people have some marginal flexibility which means an openness to buy things that can provide them more value.
I don't think Lidl avoids them. They just play them differently.
I suspect the downvotes are because your comment could be shortened to “My worry here is that this will inconvenience the marketing drones, distracting them from maximizing our suffering as they burn the planet down”.
(Upvoted; thanks for the insightful comment.)
(Upvoted; thanks for the insightful comment.)
I don't think my comment could be shortened to that because the primary thrust points to the nature of how people react to in-store presentation and how that affects us.
Almost all of the commentary on this board is missing 'the most obvious points' from a consumer retail perspective.
Issues such as privacy, invasive advertising are obviously relevant, but if we are 'thinking retail' this is going to be about shopping experience and operational overhead.
In terms of impact, experience, clarity and reducing labour input costs - it really has so many upsides.
Far from being a 'bad joke' ... just the opposite it's a pretty neat concept. This is not fodder, it's very possibly the future.
Almost all of the commentary on this board is missing 'the most obvious points' from a consumer retail perspective.
Issues such as privacy, invasive advertising are obviously relevant, but if we are 'thinking retail' this is going to be about shopping experience and operational overhead.
In terms of impact, experience, clarity and reducing labour input costs - it really has so many upsides.
Far from being a 'bad joke' ... just the opposite it's a pretty neat concept. This is not fodder, it's very possibly the future.
I must be one of the few people who actually do know what they want when they go into the store. I want juice, eggs, butter, milk and cheese. Or I need cat food. That’s what I get. I often have wander about the store, but it is extremely rare that I get something other than what I have chosen to get.
Also these screens are a great target for anarchists.
There are cameras built into the doors, and one of the images in the Twitter thread shows heat maps being displayed on the screens, presumably conveying information about what the consumers were looking at on the screens.
Ads may not have been the only value proposition here, in other words. Data that can be used to improve merchandising may be equally valuable.
Ads may not have been the only value proposition here, in other words. Data that can be used to improve merchandising may be equally valuable.
I could see one case where it does make sense - stores after the gate in airports, where there are more people walking by and seeing the advertising than there are customers coming in looking for a specific product. In any place like a grocery store where customers have clearly come in looking for specific items, it makes zero sense.
We’ll just have to wait for Apple to purchase a premium grocery chain and rebrand it as an ad-free, privacy-respecting grocery store. Too bad Whole Foods is already taken.
I would imagine that the other benefit to this besides advertising is dynamic pricing. The prices are listed on the screen, and can thus be updated at will. They might raise the price of a bottle of Coke with the temperature outside, for example. Doing this with old school price tags requires manual labor. This would be much easier.
Why not just charge the existing products for access to premium shelf space and classify that as advertising revenue? I don't see the point of putting ads in between the customer and what was already effectively an ad (i.e. the packaging/product itself).
Brands already bid for shelf placement.
Think about ads being contextual, e.g. for complementary products, or unrelated to the products inside at all but briefly reminding about new stuff, promotions, sales, etc.
Imagine thus screen showing navigation help ("where is milk?"), product data("is it sugar-free?") and other such things momentarily.
Think about ads being contextual, e.g. for complementary products, or unrelated to the products inside at all but briefly reminding about new stuff, promotions, sales, etc.
Imagine thus screen showing navigation help ("where is milk?"), product data("is it sugar-free?") and other such things momentarily.
They will get a cut in the ad revenue and in their number of customers.
> and then convinced a grocery chain to buy this for their store
I wouldn't be surprised if it was the other way around: The startup that produces these doors probably pitched them for free to this store, perhaps offering a cut of the ad revenue. If the startup is well-funded, they may have even paid the store up-front to let them install the doors.
Given that these aren't widespread and the product is prototype quality, the startup likely needs a few pilot installs to show their investors and prove their product out. Assuming they're funded, getting some of these installed ASAP is their top priority. Trying to sell them would only slow that down.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was the other way around: The startup that produces these doors probably pitched them for free to this store, perhaps offering a cut of the ad revenue. If the startup is well-funded, they may have even paid the store up-front to let them install the doors.
Given that these aren't widespread and the product is prototype quality, the startup likely needs a few pilot installs to show their investors and prove their product out. Assuming they're funded, getting some of these installed ASAP is their top priority. Trying to sell them would only slow that down.
> Edit: What bothers me the most about this, is that it will actually work. Any surface where eyes may fall on, will be replaced with an ad.
Until someone finds out every screen has the same default password. And a few supermarkets are forced to shut them down because what was displayed was way, way worse than ads...
Until someone finds out every screen has the same default password. And a few supermarkets are forced to shut them down because what was displayed was way, way worse than ads...
yeah and now that everything is cloud connected and controlled by a corporate office far removed from the actual stores. I cant wait until thee freezer isle of some national chain starts displaying goatsx on every door some holiday weekend and its hours before it fixed.
I wonder if the screens can be turned off independently of the refrigeration or freezer, in case something like this does happen?
Inshallah.
Not looking forward to goatse when I get a hankering for microwave pizza.
> will be replaced with an ad
I'm not sure what that means. These already are ads. They are directly advertising the products literally inside the case.
I'm not sure what that means. These already are ads. They are directly advertising the products literally inside the case.
> They are directly advertising the products literally inside the case.
Well, yeah, but glass would be just as effective and much cheaper. So they're doing something in addition to that.
If the requirement was "display the goods we have for sale" then glass beats this thing in virtually every way. Cheaper, minimal maintenance, no firmware updates, and most of all: familiar.
But these are going to be:
* Tracking consumer interest ("eNgAgEmEnT")
* Swapping between content display and billboard-style advertising
* Changing prices dynamically depending on weather, foot traffic, historical "engagement", national ad campaigns ("all Coke products 50% during the World Cup!"), etc.
* Pretending there's still Red Bulls in there when there aren't.
* Pretending those Red Bulls are on the 3rd shelf, right, when the stocker actually put them on the 4th shelf this time. (He forgot to read the updated Planogram email)
It's dystopian crap, I want nothing to do with it.
Well, yeah, but glass would be just as effective and much cheaper. So they're doing something in addition to that.
If the requirement was "display the goods we have for sale" then glass beats this thing in virtually every way. Cheaper, minimal maintenance, no firmware updates, and most of all: familiar.
But these are going to be:
* Tracking consumer interest ("eNgAgEmEnT")
* Swapping between content display and billboard-style advertising
* Changing prices dynamically depending on weather, foot traffic, historical "engagement", national ad campaigns ("all Coke products 50% during the World Cup!"), etc.
* Pretending there's still Red Bulls in there when there aren't.
* Pretending those Red Bulls are on the 3rd shelf, right, when the stocker actually put them on the 4th shelf this time. (He forgot to read the updated Planogram email)
It's dystopian crap, I want nothing to do with it.
Well, yeah, but glass would be just as effective and much cheaper.
I'm not sure. Home fridge doors didn't traditionally have glass because it doesn't insulate as well as, well, insulation. Glass is also a leaking point in houses. Especially if they were replacing older, less efficient units, they might use less power, and seem cheaper in the long run. Bonus points if the price changes and sale tags are electronic and require less work.
The other thing these do, at least with the ads, is provide moving images. Humans notice these, so it is likely that more folks notice the drink coolers due to the movement on the screens.
They already track consumer interest - loyalty cards, regular purchases, and credit cards selling data does this.
Coke tried changing prices dependent on whether: Folks have outcried over that. The others, though: This is normal store stuff. Foot traffic is pretty predictable, and has already been accounted for. Sports events? Known if it drives your sales. Historical engagement? Probably shows in the inventory.
In general, if a planogram is updated, someone goes and changes it. I cannot think of a reason for the door to update before someone has the planogram completed, and any company large enough to have those screens now would do this (I worked at CVS, and generally was assigned planograms). Even new item reports have to have a code for completion. And most folks put most things up correctly so long as there is some sort of label there (and there probably is so long as inventory and ordering controls use barcodes).
I'm not sure. Home fridge doors didn't traditionally have glass because it doesn't insulate as well as, well, insulation. Glass is also a leaking point in houses. Especially if they were replacing older, less efficient units, they might use less power, and seem cheaper in the long run. Bonus points if the price changes and sale tags are electronic and require less work.
The other thing these do, at least with the ads, is provide moving images. Humans notice these, so it is likely that more folks notice the drink coolers due to the movement on the screens.
They already track consumer interest - loyalty cards, regular purchases, and credit cards selling data does this.
Coke tried changing prices dependent on whether: Folks have outcried over that. The others, though: This is normal store stuff. Foot traffic is pretty predictable, and has already been accounted for. Sports events? Known if it drives your sales. Historical engagement? Probably shows in the inventory.
In general, if a planogram is updated, someone goes and changes it. I cannot think of a reason for the door to update before someone has the planogram completed, and any company large enough to have those screens now would do this (I worked at CVS, and generally was assigned planograms). Even new item reports have to have a code for completion. And most folks put most things up correctly so long as there is some sort of label there (and there probably is so long as inventory and ordering controls use barcodes).
> It's dystopian crap, I want nothing to do with it.
This is what the future looks like though. Welcome.
This is what the future looks like though. Welcome.
"I assert X is inevitable" isn't a valid argument.
> This is what the future looks like
Is it though? Is it impossible for us to stop? Or is this premature defeatism?
> This is what the future looks like
Is it though? Is it impossible for us to stop? Or is this premature defeatism?
I know I personally would just avoid any store with these, I already hate the fast food animated Menzies where they rotate between menu and ads and I don’t go to those places
Depends on where you live. I don't think I'll be seeing those in quite a while personally, but in the land of unbridled capitalism... You tell me.
In a land with true capitalism these wouldn't exist because every single store with them would instantly lose all their customers. The only reason this exists is because America doesn't have a true free market or capitalism (because that's impossible) and stores are using their market position to force customers to shop there even though they would prefer not to. What are customers going to do? Go to the other massive grocery store that's miles away? Or maybe shop at the boutique that has half the selection at a markup.
Call it what you want, I just called it future because it's already reality for some, clearly.
I don't know about you, but for me the amount of ads I see decreased compared to some points in the past. I don't watch TV, I listen to music using a streaming service with a paid subscription, I actively look for interesting stuff to buy, but not because I've seen an ad. Probably because I haven't seen any recently, because I block them.
People buy some stuff on Amazon not because they were advertised a particular brand, but probably because they needed something and searched for it, compared between options, you know. This is our present. Ads on coolers in supermarkets might be just a swan song of a dying way of selling products. Is Amazon less scary that this though? Really?
I don't know about you, but for me the amount of ads I see decreased compared to some points in the past. I don't watch TV, I listen to music using a streaming service with a paid subscription, I actively look for interesting stuff to buy, but not because I've seen an ad. Probably because I haven't seen any recently, because I block them.
People buy some stuff on Amazon not because they were advertised a particular brand, but probably because they needed something and searched for it, compared between options, you know. This is our present. Ads on coolers in supermarkets might be just a swan song of a dying way of selling products. Is Amazon less scary that this though? Really?
Then why is it that influencers are raking in the dough? Is Madison Avenue just desperately seeking any product placement? Someone's definitely spending ad revenue on TikTok, YouTube, and Facebook.
My media consumption is similar to yours, but I think we're the outliers, or maybe we just slipped between the generational cracks of an evolving but still very consumerist society.
My media consumption is similar to yours, but I think we're the outliers, or maybe we just slipped between the generational cracks of an evolving but still very consumerist society.
You got me there. Couldn't even begin to understand people who are growing up with social media.
Honestly I think targeted ads that are actually interesting to the person they are intended for is the only sane way out of this. No one likes ads that aren't relevant. If I'm going to be tracked and targeted, then at least don't annoy and bore me to death.
Honestly I think targeted ads that are actually interesting to the person they are intended for is the only sane way out of this. No one likes ads that aren't relevant. If I'm going to be tracked and targeted, then at least don't annoy and bore me to death.
If you're not the type to buy shit, at some point they'll figure out to stop making ads for your type.
I think the future is a lot closer to something between Instacart and Amazon Go. This is what dying companies do to eek out a little more revenue at their last few customers' expense. Companies that rely on "innovations" like this for the future will not survive.
I agree, elaborated in a comment in this tree. Doesn't mean that it's not going to happen though, for a while at least, in some places.
[deleted]
Just open the door before you look
Yes but a short video of a person eating a delicious slice of that frozen Delicio Pizza surely will get your mouth watering. And if they can also tell you soap is on sale you may buy that before you leave. They know you need soap because the last time you bought some on your loyalty card was 2 months ago.
Sure but why not just have ordinary TVs in the roof proclaiming sales?
Now that I think about it, I have not seen those TVs since the 90s. Maybe they drove the retail workers mad.
Now that I think about it, I have not seen those TVs since the 90s. Maybe they drove the retail workers mad.
They probably want to advertise something else, something someone else would pay them for to advertise.
It can easily be made to detect if someone is near and making their choice, but otherwise they can be part of a larger ad.
It can easily be made to detect if someone is near and making their choice, but otherwise they can be part of a larger ad.
Have you noticed the cameras at the top of each screen?
Something like https://youtu.be/7bXJ_obaiYQ
Something like https://youtu.be/7bXJ_obaiYQ
I wouldn't call a pure index of product locations in the cooler an "ad," any more than it's an "ad" when you look through the glass and see the logo on the Coke bottle you want.
When it breaks the index function to display a full-height animated Coke bottle, that's an ad.
When it breaks the index function to display a full-height animated Coke bottle, that's an ad.
More they are advertising items no longer available in the case.
> Still no one thought... glass?
I'm sure it came up. Customer experience vs revenue for in-store billboards. Ad revenue won.
I'm sure it came up. Customer experience vs revenue for in-store billboards. Ad revenue won.
Yes. People see something dumb and decide the designers and business people involved are idiots. But often the business people and designers have very different goals and know that it's dumb. But they don't think it being dumb conflicts with their goals.
This is how the entire advertising industry works. Including digital and experiential marketing. I have personally set millions of customers' dollars on fire building doodads like these.
I make my living helping big ass corporation, inc connect all the systems to use doodads like these :)
Based on other "ad in store" similar displays I suspect this will go unused in a couple of months, maybe years
You have to sell the media to someone. This is not like the type of self-promotion posters that come with some products, this is a separate thing entirely.
This might conflict with supermarket deals with the beverage manufacturers. It might make it harder to sell some brands.
So either the ad space vendor is aligned with those interests and the ad buyer has an interest in buying this space (which might be hard to justify) I don't see it lasting too long.
Oh yeah and guess what happens if the fridge needs maintenance and is not owned by the store... Something has got to give there.
You have to sell the media to someone. This is not like the type of self-promotion posters that come with some products, this is a separate thing entirely.
This might conflict with supermarket deals with the beverage manufacturers. It might make it harder to sell some brands.
So either the ad space vendor is aligned with those interests and the ad buyer has an interest in buying this space (which might be hard to justify) I don't see it lasting too long.
Oh yeah and guess what happens if the fridge needs maintenance and is not owned by the store... Something has got to give there.
Oh, come on.
Everyone thought "glass". The whole project, from the grocery store point of view, was about testing an alternative to glass doors.
Everyone thought "glass". The whole project, from the grocery store point of view, was about testing an alternative to glass doors.
Very much this! Everyone thought glass. Not only was this about testing alternatives to glass, everything would have had their cost and possible revenue compared to glass - or possibly, to the cost of running their aging glass-doored fridge units, the decals they print for the front, and the employee hours spent on them.
There are electronic price tags for shelfs that don't need printing.
[deleted]
No one thought “glass” because the outcome was predetermined.
Employees do not care about financial or literal waste.
They only meme in mind when they go to their job for “make money”.
I goto meetings with a vision and zero fucks about the implementation all the time. Why you expect that to be different otherwise in the same culture is beyond me.
Employees do not care about financial or literal waste.
They only meme in mind when they go to their job for “make money”.
I goto meetings with a vision and zero fucks about the implementation all the time. Why you expect that to be different otherwise in the same culture is beyond me.
> none of them thought... glass?
I would bet that lots of people did think glass but were convinced by the social inertia that glass must have some issue that makes it inferior.
I would bet that lots of people did think glass but were convinced by the social inertia that glass must have some issue that makes it inferior.
> I would really, really love to have been in that sales pitch meeting.
Me too. I could do with getting a bit of extra cash handed to me in a brown envelope.
Me too. I could do with getting a bit of extra cash handed to me in a brown envelope.
> Any surface where eyes may fall on, will be replaced with an ad.
With AR you don't even need surfaces.
With AR you don't even need surfaces.
It's not a crazy idea and this likely a prototype and prone to bugs. Transparent displays have been a hot item for a while. The tech has been around for years but it's expensive and has had issues with brightness. They also need to tune the UX to be valuable and not too distracting. I think these will become ubiquitous in 10 years.
This is not a transparent display as far as I can tell. It just renders images of what the inventory system thinks is behind it.
Everyone here who’s worked for some moderately large corporation knows exactly why this was done: it’s a flashy pet project for some “labs” team in an otherwise boring retailer and maybe they’ll recoup some of the cost in ads, minus whatever they lose for it being an awful idea. Some charismatic product manager sold it to execs as “being the future of connected retail” or some other BS. In a few months they’ll be removed because it’s a stupid idea.
When the company that made these was analyzing their market, I have no doubt they were targeting this exact scenario knowing that even the stupidest products have a place to make a boring brick and mortar retailer think they’re doing technology.
When the company that made these was analyzing their market, I have no doubt they were targeting this exact scenario knowing that even the stupidest products have a place to make a boring brick and mortar retailer think they’re doing technology.
As a rough estimate, what percent of US economic activity is large piles of money being tossed into a flaming dumpster for the sake of someone's ego? Because every year it seems higher.
Eh, that’s also how projects happen at all, though. The failed ones seem like it was for the sake of someone’s ego. But you need a bit of ego, in a big corporate setting.
I think TFRC was an ego project, rather than an egoless project. Yet TFRC was a wonderful project that happened to work; if it failed, it might seem like an ego project with no point.
I don’t like saying “you need ego,” but it also seems true that you can’t find large corporate projects without it. Are there good counterexamples? I’d like to change my view.
I think TFRC was an ego project, rather than an egoless project. Yet TFRC was a wonderful project that happened to work; if it failed, it might seem like an ego project with no point.
I don’t like saying “you need ego,” but it also seems true that you can’t find large corporate projects without it. Are there good counterexamples? I’d like to change my view.
Yes, however, tensorflow is not primarily an ad platform that forcefully replaces an alternative that no one asked for, while simultaneously silently advancing the police/corporate surveillance state at the explicit detriment of average citizens who had no say in the decision.
This is why it's important to try and negotiate for as much salary as you can, no matter what you do. Companies are lighting cash on fire all the time, they can afford it.
This. Once you see how the company spends money and how much they pay and effort they spend to hire an average skilled developer... It's empowering. Unfortunately lots of companies have just accepted high turnover rates and move forward. Imo they only do this because quantifying turnover costs is hard.
I agree, but I also meant literally whatever you do, because there are so many people who will work for 20 years never intentionally trying to increase their salary.
Well I'd say maybe 75% of the jobs I've had working for startups are because of something along those lines, so I'm not really complaining...
Well you can take the entire cosmetics and fashion industry for the total for one. Serving human agency includes shallow and bad ones too.
At least those are selling to actual customers. Many big corporate projects seem to be pointless pyramid building for some middle manager’s ego.
It's often someone's boss's ego, gotta get that promotion!
Look at old Victorian clothes. Or even clothes from 50 years ago. Compare them to the clothes of today. Pretty different right? That's the cosmetics and fashion industry at work. You might not like it but at least they're causing real change. Contrast that with this invention which will no doubt go the way of the dodo without anyone even remembering it.
It's not really tossed into a flaming dumpster. Someone with less money is getting it, so that's an upside heh.
As much as I hate the idea, when you see the advertising spread on all displays [1] I think it has some great potential to increase sales.
[1]: https://twitter.com/RunDaltonRun/status/1408573096756269061
[1]: https://twitter.com/RunDaltonRun/status/1408573096756269061
Doesn't every new innovation (produced by a corporation), good or bad, generally come from the experimental arm of said corporation (e.g, R&D division)? You have teams dedicating to maintaining the core business, and you have teams exploring areas along the fringe of your TAM.
HN's comments following Bitcoin's launch have made me acutely aware of how hostile we can be towards new ideas.
HN's comments following Bitcoin's launch have made me acutely aware of how hostile we can be towards new ideas.
Bitcoin came from an independent researcher. That's the polar opposite of a corporate research arm.
I'd guess that most innovation comes from startups and smaller companies that get acquired, or iterative product development that aligns with a company's primary focus (iPod, Office, Ford's electric pickup) and not from dedicated experimentation organisations.
Corporations are poorly setup to benefit from innovation anyway. The funding model doesn't encourage the right incentives, and true innovation becomes political. A classic example is Kodak's early invention of the digital camera, which was a threat to the companies cash cow.
I'd guess that most innovation comes from startups and smaller companies that get acquired, or iterative product development that aligns with a company's primary focus (iPod, Office, Ford's electric pickup) and not from dedicated experimentation organisations.
Corporations are poorly setup to benefit from innovation anyway. The funding model doesn't encourage the right incentives, and true innovation becomes political. A classic example is Kodak's early invention of the digital camera, which was a threat to the companies cash cow.
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Usually bad ideas die in a test phase. This is a pure money grab completely at the expense of the consumer. The question they asked themselves was, “how inconvenient can we make the shopping experience without alienating our customers completely, in order to extract more revenue at the expense of their experience in our stores?”
Because this has zero benefit for shoppers.
Because this has zero benefit for shoppers.
Ironic that Bitcoin is your example here, as it definitely did not originate in the experimental arm of a corporation.
[deleted]
Your last point confuses me. Bitcoin has made some people richer, some people poorer, but it has not made the world a better place, nor found much use as a currency, and there’s still not a convincing case for blockchain as an important algorithmic invention.
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A boring dystopia indeed.
One day someone will be hunched over on a sidewalk, dying of thirst, and a patrolling Nestle®-branded drone senses (using state-of-the-art machine learning "customer needs" technology) his predicament. The drone hovers there projecting a holo-ad about Nestles hot product "Nectar of Life" which is just water from the region's last remaining aquifer cut with brackish water from the coast. The ad ends with a map to the nearest vending machine and buzzes off for it's next engagement. The man, too weak to move, just sits there, nothing he can do except wait for another ad drone to come by.
One day someone will be hunched over on a sidewalk, dying of thirst, and a patrolling Nestle®-branded drone senses (using state-of-the-art machine learning "customer needs" technology) his predicament. The drone hovers there projecting a holo-ad about Nestles hot product "Nectar of Life" which is just water from the region's last remaining aquifer cut with brackish water from the coast. The ad ends with a map to the nearest vending machine and buzzes off for it's next engagement. The man, too weak to move, just sits there, nothing he can do except wait for another ad drone to come by.
Shades of both Philip K Dick and Frank Herbert here. This is one of the best SF short stories I've read for a while.
“Please drink verification can.”
The sad thing is, we engineers are building this dystopia. Maybe even fellow HN readers. Our next JIRA ticket in the queue is to shove another ad onto another previously unmonetized surface. Many of us are actively bringing about this world!
The engineer who built this grocery screen was probably highly compensated for it. The biz guys who just hi-5'ed each other for "crushing it" are too, and the entrepreneur is probably already a millionaire. Everyone's making money by being part of the problem.
The sad thing is, we engineers are building this dystopia. Maybe even fellow HN readers. Our next JIRA ticket in the queue is to shove another ad onto another previously unmonetized surface. Many of us are actively bringing about this world!
The engineer who built this grocery screen was probably highly compensated for it. The biz guys who just hi-5'ed each other for "crushing it" are too, and the entrepreneur is probably already a millionaire. Everyone's making money by being part of the problem.
I remember a company patented an invention where people would have to shout <brand name> at the TV to get the advertisement to stop.
Would it allow or reject “FUCK COKE!”.
Probably force-repeat the ad.
Probably force-repeat the ad.
I’m not a human psychology expert by any means but I’m afraid think this would probably still work in their favour.
“There’s no such thing as bad publicity” is a thing because just having your brand name out there (even if it’s bad news) is better than it not being out there at all.
Fuck advertising and the greedy profit-driven place it comes from.
“There’s no such thing as bad publicity” is a thing because just having your brand name out there (even if it’s bad news) is better than it not being out there at all.
Fuck advertising and the greedy profit-driven place it comes from.
It offers a Pepsi instead.
Wow, thanks!
Misplaced ad spend, he’s not the target market. Needs more ML to tune the model, which it’ll get by A/B testing further destitute cohorts.
Greetings citizen, this is RedFaceTwitBot 778 - my reinforcement ML model, combined with your latest interaction, matches your face expression with an uncontrollable anger toward Nestle® (score 97.8%) - would you like to join our "Capitalism is evil" page? First ten tweets are free and you can select from our collection of best anti-capitalist phrases (courtesy of Marxly, YC S2399).
2409 - see this[1] web archive link for an extremely prescient comment by @yongjik
1. waywaywaybackmachine/https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27637963
1. waywaywaybackmachine/https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27637963
I can thoroughly recommend the movie Idiocracy.
Brawndo is the product the drone would be advertising.
Brawndo is the product the drone would be advertising.
In the '90s I was in a technology based art class at CMU. An artist talked about a project they wanted to do: a music streamer, but it would use GPS to know it's location, and play music from the local culture, to keep you connected to your surroundings.
Another student said: "You mean, a radio?"
Another student said: "You mean, a radio?"
An app-based solution using GPS, local DJs, and music that was royalty-free by local musicians (aiming to get recognition, live shows, and sell merch) could be a huge hit...
Consider how heavily regulated radio frequencies are, and suddenly mobile internet, streaming, GPS and an app makes much more sense.
Yes, but for the internet!
Actually the artist was prescient - with Clear Channel ownership, there is almost no local radio programming today.
IHeartMedia (formerly Clear Channel)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IHeartMedia
"the company owns more than 850 full-power AM and FM radio stations in the U.S., making it the country's largest owner of radio stations. "
IHeartMedia (formerly Clear Channel)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IHeartMedia
"the company owns more than 850 full-power AM and FM radio stations in the U.S., making it the country's largest owner of radio stations. "
This is obviously a comically idiotic idea, but ... hmm ...
If someone had taken this and put it in a museum as an art installation, I would love it. Thinking about it like that ... it tickles something in my brain. Using those absolutely huge, gorgeous screens, using our most sophisticated technology ... just to display a flat, bland, skeuomorphic representation of a completely mundane part of the human experience: the convenience store fridge section. I dunno, I'm finding it hard to describe what I feel thinking about this as a piece of "art". It would definitely make quite the statement. The size and scale of it is what takes it to another level.
But yeah, instead this is reality...
If someone had taken this and put it in a museum as an art installation, I would love it. Thinking about it like that ... it tickles something in my brain. Using those absolutely huge, gorgeous screens, using our most sophisticated technology ... just to display a flat, bland, skeuomorphic representation of a completely mundane part of the human experience: the convenience store fridge section. I dunno, I'm finding it hard to describe what I feel thinking about this as a piece of "art". It would definitely make quite the statement. The size and scale of it is what takes it to another level.
But yeah, instead this is reality...
There is an art installation in Las Vegas[0] which is basically a grocery store from an alternate, mildly dystopian, dimension. This would fit in perfectly there.
0: https://www.travelandleisure.com/culture-design/visual-arts/...
0: https://www.travelandleisure.com/culture-design/visual-arts/...
I've seen the "unsettling supermarket" concept last year in a museum in Tallinn, Estonia. It's a shelf where most but not all products have the wrong brand. Coca-cola soap, Tampax cookies, Snickers canned fish, Evian ketchup and so on. I thought it was a really neat idea to make me think about the huge simplification of "brand" and what is really happening behind and around a product.
You're right, I could see them panning to these doors in their video, and the irony would be obvious. But like gp said, instead, this is reality
That place looks amazing, thanks for the link.
Not just showing something mundane, but actually showing what is behind the screen!
It’s like connecting VR goggles to a front facing camera, so you can watch what you would see if you took of the headset.
As art, I’m kinda digging it too.
It’s like connecting VR goggles to a front facing camera, so you can watch what you would see if you took of the headset.
As art, I’m kinda digging it too.
I want VR goggles which block the ads and replace them by art.
These will be everywhere in a few years so not idiotic just downright evil.
I hope that these things don't periodically switch from showing the actual products & prices to showing a full-screen ad for something. A movie theater near me does that with their screen-based menus. Very annoying to be trying to decide what you want and suddenly have the menu vanish.
It's a bit sad to think how wasteful these are. Not just the waste produced by producing the screens and powering them all day, but the fact that you can't reliably see what's in there by looking means people will just learn to open it and browse with the door open, letting the cold air out.
Edit: Also, does anyone know what the cameras are for, if not facial recognition or CCTV? I'm guessing it's eye tracking for market research. I suppose that could be anonymized and aggregated on-device in a privacy-preserving way, but you'd have to take their word for it.
It's a bit sad to think how wasteful these are. Not just the waste produced by producing the screens and powering them all day, but the fact that you can't reliably see what's in there by looking means people will just learn to open it and browse with the door open, letting the cold air out.
Edit: Also, does anyone know what the cameras are for, if not facial recognition or CCTV? I'm guessing it's eye tracking for market research. I suppose that could be anonymized and aggregated on-device in a privacy-preserving way, but you'd have to take their word for it.
They absolutely do. That's the main point of them in fact. Revenue for the supermarket. But really it's not a downgrade. Every package is designed to basically be an ad already.
In my city we have this issue with the screens in the subway trains. There are two screens,
* one always works and shows ads and selected news
* the second one is supposed to show the next stations and connections, except for when it doesn't and shows ads.. for many minutes at a time.
* the second one is supposed to show the next stations and connections, except for when it doesn't and shows ads.. for many minutes at a time.
They are completely for ads.
https://twitter.com/RunDaltonRun/status/1408566439833788423
https://twitter.com/RunDaltonRun/status/1408566439833788423
> but the fact that you can't reliably see what's in there by looking means people will just learn to open it and browse with the door open, letting the cold air out.
Now that I know these exist, I kinda feel like being contrary and opening every single one to "look for" whatever it was I wanted.
Now that I know these exist, I kinda feel like being contrary and opening every single one to "look for" whatever it was I wanted.
> cameras > I'm guessing it's eye tracking for market research
It's possible the whole display is specifically for market research. Play with product placement and see what increases sales for the most profitable items.
It's possible the whole display is specifically for market research. Play with product placement and see what increases sales for the most profitable items.
They have these in my local Walgreens and I hate them. I think the drink coolers were stocked for maybe a week after they were installed. Since then it’s been 50/50 if the product the screen is showing is actually behind the door. I don’t think the store employees are able to keep on top of stocking without being able to see what’s in the case.
You've got to put on your homo economicus hat and think outside the box of social norms and common decency. The solution is to find something that's the right size to prop the doors open. Then prop the door of each section that you're comparing, so that you can see products and ponder each one. After you pick something out, pay it forward by leaving the doors propped so the next person has an easier time. For full credit, make sure to wear a mask to defeat the facial recognition cameras.
A wad of chewing gum seems like it would fit nicely where the camera is
There's an angle that the company making these didn't think of. That's exactly the kind of critical use case you miss when you don't do enough testing.
No. It’s bloody obvious.
The answer no doubt was “think of the ads” and “our AI guy (there’s always that one AI guy) is working on a model to help detect low stock”.
The answer no doubt was “think of the ads” and “our AI guy (there’s always that one AI guy) is working on a model to help detect low stock”.
I'm pretty sure this is exactly how it went. Sometimes it will show items as out of stock on the screen but it seems to miss about 2/3rds of what's actually depleted when you open the door.
And yeah, the creepy little camera on the top of all of them makes me very pleased to have an excuse to wear a mask inside the store.
And yeah, the creepy little camera on the top of all of them makes me very pleased to have an excuse to wear a mask inside the store.
Brick & mortar retail is trying its very hardest to kill itself.
The bigger a tremendous fucking hassle it is to go to the store instead of ordering online, the fewer people are going to come in.
Supermarket window: "we now use anti-shoplifting face and license plate tracking" [e.g. auror.co ]
Supermarket aisle: can't see any products, have to open every door to look at actual products instead of TV ads
Supermarket aisle: e-ink price labels; can no longer flip up to see how much the thing cost before it was on "sale".
Supermarket aisle: e-ink label is down, no idea how much product costs
Supermarket checkout: always scans shit at the wrong price
Plus we've got covid, drive time, smaller selection, unknown stock levels [sold out].
Any old man could tell you giving a shit about your customers' experience is going to benefit you in the long run. But no. It'll be too late by the time they realize what they've done.
The bigger a tremendous fucking hassle it is to go to the store instead of ordering online, the fewer people are going to come in.
Supermarket window: "we now use anti-shoplifting face and license plate tracking" [e.g. auror.co ]
Supermarket aisle: can't see any products, have to open every door to look at actual products instead of TV ads
Supermarket aisle: e-ink price labels; can no longer flip up to see how much the thing cost before it was on "sale".
Supermarket aisle: e-ink label is down, no idea how much product costs
Supermarket checkout: always scans shit at the wrong price
Plus we've got covid, drive time, smaller selection, unknown stock levels [sold out].
Any old man could tell you giving a shit about your customers' experience is going to benefit you in the long run. But no. It'll be too late by the time they realize what they've done.
I'd argue that the design of cities to optimize for nothing and emphasize driving long distances to the store is a greater contribution, but I see your point ;) Though that's not retail's problem, that's the city's problem.
It takes me 5 minutes to walk to my grocery store at most. Hard to beat
It takes me 5 minutes to walk to my grocery store at most. Hard to beat
If you think these are the things killing brick-and-mortar retail when it would otherwise succeed, then you should be founding a company doing the exact opposite of these things and capture the market.
This was always the problem with capitalism based on short-term gain, it will inevitably sacrifice loyalty for a quick buck. The same will happen or is already happening to online stores who do the same, eg by showing ads.
That said, at some point a failing business will realize the end is coming and cash out as much as possible, accelerating its own end in a calculated profit maximization scheme. Brick and mortar stores might as well self-destruct if they also believe they're going down anyway... It's not like anyone works there for the fun of it.
That said, at some point a failing business will realize the end is coming and cash out as much as possible, accelerating its own end in a calculated profit maximization scheme. Brick and mortar stores might as well self-destruct if they also believe they're going down anyway... It's not like anyone works there for the fun of it.
Seriously though, how does someone even come up with something this dumb? How does one go about thinking of and actually implementing this? How did the development process go through without someone interjecting "why the fuck are we spending $1000s on 6ft LEDs when we can just use glass?"
I would imagine this is the kind of thing you'd commission if your job title was, say, chief innovation officer at a soft drinks company.
What else would you do?
What else would you do?
I'd probably try to experiment with weird ideas like unsweetened beverages, carbonated coffee, carbonated tea, carbonated oat milk, and bitter flavours like orange peel.
Too much bigclivelive from YouTube
[deleted]
try to find a artificial sweetener that was indistinguishable from sugar. That would be the holy grail for soft drinks.
I'm pretty sure they've been trying, but our bodies have evolved to distinguish actual sugar from anything else for a very long time.
That would be left-handed sugar. Chemically identical, tastes exactly the same, fully indigestible.
The only downside is the diarrhea. :p
The only downside is the diarrhea. :p
Try yet again to make talking vending machines?
I think they are drink coolers without any moving parts (well I guess there's a compressor), not
vending machines. I bet there are cameras everywhere and you're expected to self-checkout. Or just check-out at a counter.
I recently bought something with self-checkout at an appliance store, so not groceries. Grabbed a thing of a shelf, scanned it at a touch screen terminal, payed for it with my contactless payment ring and just walked out. No human contact whatsoever. If that isn't future then I don't know what it.
I recently bought something with self-checkout at an appliance store, so not groceries. Grabbed a thing of a shelf, scanned it at a touch screen terminal, payed for it with my contactless payment ring and just walked out. No human contact whatsoever. If that isn't future then I don't know what it.
Most people are incredibly dumb. This includes the rich and powerful; most of them just happened to be lucky enough to be born in the right place, at the right time.
Some bean counter came up with the idea that they have a captive audience which they can force to watch ads.
I think this is one of the stupidest things I’ve seen. But to be honest, I won’t be surprised if this actually increases revenue since people are going to buy what they buy and it’s not like they will go to another store due to this.
I think this is one of the stupidest things I’ve seen. But to be honest, I won’t be surprised if this actually increases revenue since people are going to buy what they buy and it’s not like they will go to another store due to this.
I think I would go to another store due to this. I think that non-HN type people like my dad or my mom would probably go to another store due to this.
Not being able to see what's behind the glass makes it take longer to shop. People abandon webpages that don't load quickly enough - why wouldn't they abandon stores where you have to open each door on an aisle of refrigerators just to see what's available?
Not being able to see what's behind the glass makes it take longer to shop. People abandon webpages that don't load quickly enough - why wouldn't they abandon stores where you have to open each door on an aisle of refrigerators just to see what's available?
Because changing stores is not as easy as clicking away from websites. This could be due to choice of items that are available, price, distance from home/office and so on. And, not to forget inertia/habits. Also, what’s behind those doors is only a part of the shopping list.
I think most people will be annoyed, curse it, and then get used to it.
I would love to be proven wrong since this is not the direction we should be going.
I think most people will be annoyed, curse it, and then get used to it.
I would love to be proven wrong since this is not the direction we should be going.
I probably wouldn’t change stores. But these drinks are impulse buys. I’d be a lot less likely to impulse buy one if I can’t actually see the product.
The door clearly shows what's on offer.
If everything works perfectly, if there are no bugs (like, y'know, the failed one in the pictures in TFA), if it correctly tracks inventory, and if the pictures that they use match what people are looking for... then it might work. In reality, it will not.
Recently, I ordered some hardware at Lowes for pick-up at customer service. The website said they had like 80 of these things in stock. I got a call an hour later from a worker saying they couldn't fill the order, though they could try it at another store. Apparently, the website's idea of their inventory, and the actual inventory haven't matched for any products since last summer. I expect this to be the case more often than not for these coolers.
Unless it's on an ad break.
This is what happens when you let your world be taken over by marketing and insurance companies.
Perhaps it's for quickly updating the price tags for items inside refrigerators? E-Ink tags are ubiquitous but often handle low temperatures poorly.
A simple green and black lcd is fine for prices.
Because advertisements.
Ads.
You can also see cameras and IR blasters on the top of each door for facial tracking.
Everyone's complaining about ads. But just like on the web, ads aren't the problem, tracking is.
https://twitter.com/RunDaltonRun/status/1408578486046887939
This thing is for tracking what you look at, and is supposed to help the store figure out how to "optimize" their shelf.
https://twitter.com/RunDaltonRun/status/1408578486046887939
This thing is for tracking what you look at, and is supposed to help the store figure out how to "optimize" their shelf.
There's also the unnecessary use of untrusted JavaScript that sites pull in from their ad networks.
A few years ago I tried running without ad or JavaScript blocking at work. That lasted a few weeks until the day I got an JS driven redirect to a porn site from a work related search result. I have no sympathy for the clowns who imposed this garbage on the world.
A few years ago I tried running without ad or JavaScript blocking at work. That lasted a few weeks until the day I got an JS driven redirect to a porn site from a work related search result. I have no sympathy for the clowns who imposed this garbage on the world.
Ads are one part of the problem. And they are a major problem. And they are one of the easier problems to tackle.
I thought the idea was that these would allow more insulation in the doors than glass, and that the energy use from the screen was less than the energy saved from cooling losses (but what is the payback from the manufacturing, shipping, install, recycling, repair etc?). I'm skeptical, but it is conceivably possible that it works out if the screens are very efficient, using off the shelf parts. Maybe.
Large panels like this emit heat. Any wins from better insulation are going to be offset by needing to keep the panel’s heat well away from the refrigerated contents.
Triple-paned glass insulates pretty well and for a fraction of the cost…
Triple-paned glass insulates pretty well and for a fraction of the cost…
Either way they're doors. I'm guessing that increasing the frequency of door openings is an intended outcome of whatever they were thinking. A vending machine could be more energy efficient while providing exactly the same old consumer interaction disadvantages that are supposed to be a novel feature of this display.
Energy losses will be through the roof! To see what's actually behind half those doors, you have to open each one up instead of keeping the door closed and looking through it. Even when it's in "display the products" mode, are you really going to trust that it has the correct inventory configured when you're looking for your favorite beverage and can't find it? No, you're going to go down the aisle opening every single door to check for yourself.
If they cared about energy they could double glaze the glass
What about the thermal losses from customers opening the door to see the product while the giant whole-aisle ad is playing?
If you insulate too good, the heat from display won't be able to escape, and you'll need a gap b/w screen and insulation, making the door even thinker. I'm pretty sure, by design, those displays are being cooled with the freezers behind them.
Plus you don’t need to open it to see product information (especially useful for visually impaired aka most people given how small those product labels are).
This is so exciting. I have to say, as soon as this pandemic is over, the first thing I'm going to do is attend a brand activation campaign or event and just... witness a brand generate awareness and build lasting connections with its target audience.
Ha. The pure cynicism and satire. Almost had me for a minute. Bravo.
I think part of the reasoning behind this is also that people are less likely to buy from a half-empty shelf. That's why markets put so much effort into constant restocking.
This way, the shelf can always look full while needing less restocking.
This way, the shelf can always look full while needing less restocking.
> people are less likely to buy from a half-empty shelf.
Wait, what? Is this a thing? If anything, I would guess a half-empty shelf would trigger a "this product is popular so I should probably get some", but even that is stretching it.
I guess it's yet another proof I was born in the wrong universe.
Wait, what? Is this a thing? If anything, I would guess a half-empty shelf would trigger a "this product is popular so I should probably get some", but even that is stretching it.
I guess it's yet another proof I was born in the wrong universe.
https://cstoredecisions.com/2011/11/21/the-importance-of-ful...
"More than two out of three (68%) U.S. adults would avoid shopping at a particular retail store if they encountered empty shelves"
"More than two out of three (68%) U.S. adults would avoid shopping at a particular retail store if they encountered empty shelves"
But what if the employee can't see that the shelve is empty and forgets to restock? Then people will open the door and the product will actually not be there which is incredibly frustrating.
Nice insight!
I have to imagine there is a bit of a micro-emotion when you go from seeing the bright, shiny, fully stocked screen to the (potentially) mostly empty shelves behind it. I can imagine it wouldn't halt the purchase or anything, but even picturing it in my head, I can feel myself getting crestfallen at the empty shelves inside.
I have to imagine there is a bit of a micro-emotion when you go from seeing the bright, shiny, fully stocked screen to the (potentially) mostly empty shelves behind it. I can imagine it wouldn't halt the purchase or anything, but even picturing it in my head, I can feel myself getting crestfallen at the empty shelves inside.
> "people are less likely to buy from a half-empty shelf."
? Then why is "Only two left! A thousand people are looking at this item! Quick quick buy now!" such a thing?
? Then why is "Only two left! A thousand people are looking at this item! Quick quick buy now!" such a thing?
https://cstoredecisions.com/2011/11/21/the-importance-of-ful...
"Only two left" is more common either:
- In the context of discounted items, where you want to create a temporary rush - Online, where inventory is not visible
"Only two left" is more common either:
- In the context of discounted items, where you want to create a temporary rush - Online, where inventory is not visible
I’m lost in these comments. It’s been years that opaque vending machines representing pictures of the content at eye level are out in the world [0] and there’s so many people reacting as if that is the rubicon that should never be crossed.
I’m not in favor of more animated shinny ads shoved into our eyeballs, but we already had the screens everywhere and there already seemed to be no way to go back without town regulation.
If having them in front of a vending machine makes people go berserk, it might be a good thing, but it still blows my mind it’s the straw that would break the camel’s back.
[0] https://www.pinterest.jp/pin/177821885259694953/
I’m not in favor of more animated shinny ads shoved into our eyeballs, but we already had the screens everywhere and there already seemed to be no way to go back without town regulation.
If having them in front of a vending machine makes people go berserk, it might be a good thing, but it still blows my mind it’s the straw that would break the camel’s back.
[0] https://www.pinterest.jp/pin/177821885259694953/
There are several differences between the two:
- Vending machines don't stop displaying what they sell to show ads
- Vending machines that were not designed by monsters show you things that are not in stock anymore, this thing does
- Vending machines often aim at impulse buying in locations where you don't really have alternative. Here, we're talking about actual stores, to which people often go several times a week. That, at least to me, make it twice as frustrating when it does not work as show in the tweets.
- Vending machines don't stop displaying what they sell to show ads
- Vending machines that were not designed by monsters show you things that are not in stock anymore, this thing does
- Vending machines often aim at impulse buying in locations where you don't really have alternative. Here, we're talking about actual stores, to which people often go several times a week. That, at least to me, make it twice as frustrating when it does not work as show in the tweets.
I encountered plenty of vending machines where the stock is completely out of sight, and your only choice is buttons. The friendlier of these would display "out of stock" when you press a button and the item is out of stock, the less friendly would just make your coffee without sugar if it's out of sugar, or even sugary creamer water if it's out of coffee.
My gas station has installed video on the pumps and while pumping, I must listen to whatever dreck is being sold. It irritates me that I have no choice but to listen.
Is there anyone, anywhere, who believes this is helping consumers make their choices?
I fully expect an updated movie script where some lunatic sticks his head out the window at 2am and shouts, "I'm mad as hell and I don't want to listen to it anymore."
Is there anyone, anywhere, who believes this is helping consumers make their choices?
I fully expect an updated movie script where some lunatic sticks his head out the window at 2am and shouts, "I'm mad as hell and I don't want to listen to it anymore."
Businesses are going from "help consumers make their choices" to "make their choices for them".
Usually results in them failing, sometimes spectacularly.
Usually results in them failing, sometimes spectacularly.
For the ones with 3 or 4 buttons on each side, you can sometimes hit the second button from the top on the right and it will mute.
Whenever I see these I just open the door and let all the cold air out while I look and encourage anyone I'm with to do the same. The prices are still on the inside so we just comparison shop with the door open. Eventually they will realize they're losing money through cooling cost and replace these monstrosities.
Its pretty stupid with sports drinks, but I could see this being perhaps practical in a frozen food aisle. I often open the freezer, take out a product to read its nutritional facts, then put it back. I guess now I could just tap?
If you charitably assume useful features are implemented, instead of just ads, sure!
And I thought with Juicero we had reached peak stupid…
Just wait until the door can recognize your face. After you buy some milk, the screen will recommend you go down to isle 4 and grab some cereal and get 50cents off, only valid during that store visit.
^^^ the real play
^^^ the real play
I bought a Nintendo switch recently. The amount of crap I needed to go through to just okay a game. I spent 2 hours, wasted about $50 on games (there is no refund).
In frustration I gave up.
In the name of ads and growth, it’s crazy how user-hostile many interfaces are.
Glass is a great interface. TVs ain’t.
In frustration I gave up.
In the name of ads and growth, it’s crazy how user-hostile many interfaces are.
Glass is a great interface. TVs ain’t.
This concept could actually be nice to present a pretty interface for products wrapped in plain, cheap packages (or no packages at all and served to customers in reusable containers).
Or easy overview and access for nutritional labels, allergy info, price/g, etc.
The technology could improve the customer experience, but of course customer experience is secondary to insights, tracking, and ads.
The technology could improve the customer experience, but of course customer experience is secondary to insights, tracking, and ads.
Solutions always breed more problems. The trick is to have a solution that, on balance, solves a more costly problem than it creates. These doors do not feel like they solve any customer problems (I have never needed an electronic UI to see through glass) and instead give birth to a huge maintenance burden that the retailer will not be willing to meet.
You're making the assumption that retailers want solutions for their customers. They don't. They want customers to buy their stock.
This is about selling more stock. It's also about selling the attention of their customers to manufacturers of their stock. A customer at the store is two things, one is a buyer of the store's stock, the other is inventory to be sold to manufacturers.
Grocery stores are self-service warehouses that sell access to their shelves to manufacturers.
That's why manufacturers pay the stores for shelf access (eg middle vs upper/lower) and why staples like milk are at the back of the store, while good looking fruit and vegetables are at the front.
This is about selling more stock. It's also about selling the attention of their customers to manufacturers of their stock. A customer at the store is two things, one is a buyer of the store's stock, the other is inventory to be sold to manufacturers.
Grocery stores are self-service warehouses that sell access to their shelves to manufacturers.
That's why manufacturers pay the stores for shelf access (eg middle vs upper/lower) and why staples like milk are at the back of the store, while good looking fruit and vegetables are at the front.
back of TVs get pretty hot. though it could be an effective death trap. Imagine a girl, life size, with a heavenly voice beckoning you to go inside. Mesmerized by her mermaid like appearance, you can't help but step inside, the door locks, and then ...
Do LED TVs really get that hot? I guess a little where the backlight is but that isn't the whole or the panel
These look like they'd be fun to break.
Imagine stocking this and having to make sure the products inside even sort of line up with the view from the aisle. You’d either need to open and close the damn thing 20 times to check your work, or you’d need to update the listings every time your inventory shifted. There’s probably one person in the entire store that knows how to update the displays.
Don’t we ask retail workers to do enough already? They’ve just dealt with a pandemic for Christ’s sake.
Don’t we ask retail workers to do enough already? They’ve just dealt with a pandemic for Christ’s sake.
Serious question. Where can I get a brand new dumb TV?
Am I alone in thinking that maybe this is a good idea?
When someone opens the door in one of those cabinets, glass doors always cloud up. Then I have to wait and wait for it to be clear again, and in the meantime, some other customer will often come by, open the door, and grab something, and I have to wait all over again for it to defog.
I do see a lot of opportunity for abuse, but I also see a lot of potential.
When someone opens the door in one of those cabinets, glass doors always cloud up. Then I have to wait and wait for it to be clear again, and in the meantime, some other customer will often come by, open the door, and grab something, and I have to wait all over again for it to defog.
I do see a lot of opportunity for abuse, but I also see a lot of potential.
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Here's a thought experiment. Imagine those screens weren't on the coolers themselves, but on a wall nearby. And coolers were just coolers, let's say horizontal ones with frozen stuff you can't clearly see at a glance. How much more do you like it this way and why? What's the difference? There's still a camera and it probably records you.
How is this any better than looking at the real product on the shelves? I mean, why did the shop want to pay for it?
I'll bet serious money the shop isn't paying a penny for this. They got sold on "cool, high-tech" display doors "at no cost to you". Or even, "WE'LL pay YOU to install these" (which would be some ad revenue split deal)
The ads pay for these.
The ads pay for these.
They can display ads, which makes the store money.
https://twitter.com/RunDaltonRun/status/1408566439833788423
https://twitter.com/RunDaltonRun/status/1408566439833788423
> How is this any better than looking at the real product on the shelves? I mean, why did the shop want to pay for it?
Probably the fact that you can't see the cheaper alternatives anymore without opening the door.
Probably the fact that you can't see the cheaper alternatives anymore without opening the door.
Maybe it saves electricity for the refrigerator because people open the door more infrequently?
From one of the tweets:
> Turns out that Monster energy drinks are found in the "no content" door.
So how did he find it? Obviously he went down the line of doors opening each one until he found it. If the doors were glass, he could have looked through each door instead of opening each.
> Turns out that Monster energy drinks are found in the "no content" door.
So how did he find it? Obviously he went down the line of doors opening each one until he found it. If the doors were glass, he could have looked through each door instead of opening each.
Or do they open the door more frequently to see what's actually inside the case?
It also saves the customers money because they won't buy the product. Everybody wins!
Off topic but I see one of the cases advertising "organic seltzer". WTF is organic seltzer?!
"how can we find ways to make our society even less energy efficient for no benefit to any quality of life except making some company some money. You know, like usual, but let's make it even more on the nose."
I can see a future where every seven eleven has surge pricing. Black mirror Indeed.
I remember seeing this Cooler Screens startup idea a while back and thinking "this is terrible, I hope it never catches on". The facial recognition marketing alone is like a dystopia.
Pretty obnoxious, but to be honest I'll just stand there like a dingus with the door open staring inside anyway like I already do with the glass doors.
Is there any benefit to using these?
I imagine that maybe it could save power by keeping light out and uaing better insulation... but I have no idea.
This is similar to how buses and trains in many cities replaced windows with ads. Completely ruined the experience of riding public transit.
In the future houses or apartments with smart screens and ads will be cheaper than houses with premium see through windows.
I think I'd be fine with this if the image were from cameras inside the cooler, displaying the product in realtime.
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This makes life seem more like a video game.
Companies that are technology ‘fashionistas’ will spend lots on stuff like this but ultimately will not see a return.
I hate this so much i have no words for why this is a thing, people putting resources into this should be ashamed.
What is the environmental cost of such useless technology (production, maintenance, end of life,...)?
this would annoying obviously but it would be extra annoying if an item was sold out but didnt display that. now you have the door open and you need to close and open it repeatedly to reference the price on the front of the door with what you are looking at inside
[deleted]
I guess I'll keep wearing my masks, and maybe add sunglasses as well.
Does it say where this is? I didn’t see it, but might have missed it.
Nothing is worse than looking at a menu and it rotates to an ad.
What an absolute useless waste of energy ! ...
Hopefully the prices are at least up-to-date. I oftent skip buying items if their prices aren't listed.
That alone is a huge benefit of this. Lack of clear pricing is such a big problem, keeping labels up to date - it's a labour intensive problem and 'labour' is a primary cost input for retail.
Of course, this aside from the actual sneaky things that they do.
If they don't jam these things with ads or confusion, I think it's going to work out well.
Of course, this aside from the actual sneaky things that they do.
If they don't jam these things with ads or confusion, I think it's going to work out well.
Minority report.
In between the two times this image was circulated, I visited a store and watched as a pair of people opened a glass door, held a long conversation, the closed that now totally frosted/condensed door which was now impossible to see anything through.
Which presumably cleared on its own in a few minutes as the air circulated inside. While this technology makes it impossible to see what is behind the door 100% of the time forever, by design.
Speaking of see-through.
Has anyone ever seen two-way glass that allows bidirectional observation within proximity of it's surface but diminishes with distance of either observer or view-field depth?
It was used in a pair of bathrooms (men's and women's) for the washbasin "mirror" at a restaurant or nightclub on or near 6th Street ATX about 2004. It allowed washroom patrons to see each other in the other bathroom, but not past a certain distance within each bathroom and didn't work if the viewer were far away.
Has anyone ever seen two-way glass that allows bidirectional observation within proximity of it's surface but diminishes with distance of either observer or view-field depth?
It was used in a pair of bathrooms (men's and women's) for the washbasin "mirror" at a restaurant or nightclub on or near 6th Street ATX about 2004. It allowed washroom patrons to see each other in the other bathroom, but not past a certain distance within each bathroom and didn't work if the viewer were far away.
Reading this thread made me crave for one-way mirrored glasses (not sunglasses) with correction, to opt out from eyeball tracking.
Is anyone aware of any such thing?
Is anyone aware of any such thing?
You're not alone, I just read your comment before I felt like typing it myself.
And yes, they should be available from whatever places sell corrected sunglasses lenses. You probably just want the mirrored sunglasses style coating.
Or what did you mean with "not sunglasses"? Mirroring will make it darker, but not necessarily to an extend where you have trouble, hence my questioning of your reasons.
And yes, they should be available from whatever places sell corrected sunglasses lenses. You probably just want the mirrored sunglasses style coating.
Or what did you mean with "not sunglasses"? Mirroring will make it darker, but not necessarily to an extend where you have trouble, hence my questioning of your reasons.
There's way too much cynicism here and a lack of insight as to how consumer retail works.
'Privacy invasion' aside there's a lot of obvious benefits to this.
1) Impactful Displays - this will increase sales. In your local coffee shop, going from the static nice pictures, to 'active displays' unambiguously generates more attention.
It's a little bit like having 'nice photo' menus vs 'empty menus' for regular dining. Obviously a nice restaurant doesn't want that - but for everything else, it helps turnover.
2) They can make the 'presentation layer' spiffy without having to worry abut what's underneath. A lot of effort goes into making sure everything looks 'right' on the shelf. Any kind of disorderly shelf gives customers a bad impression.
3) Easy pricing changes. My local 'Drug Mart' they have the 'pricing girl' constantly changing tags. I literally recognize the woman. With the prices on a display, it makes it much easier to manage.
4) Creative possibilities: beyond just displaying 'what's inside' there will be other opportunities. Possibly more detailed product information.
My biggest concern would be frankly the size of those screens and their cost and maintenance - and would the added benefits work out in the metrics. For 3 mid-sized screens at your coffee shop - yes. But for 10-20 large screens (that move, and could be broken) in the back of your grocery store, maybe not.
This is definitely a worthwhile retail experiment.
I suggest we may be seeing a lot more of this in the future.
Maybe not, but it's entirely possible.
'Privacy invasion' aside there's a lot of obvious benefits to this.
1) Impactful Displays - this will increase sales. In your local coffee shop, going from the static nice pictures, to 'active displays' unambiguously generates more attention.
It's a little bit like having 'nice photo' menus vs 'empty menus' for regular dining. Obviously a nice restaurant doesn't want that - but for everything else, it helps turnover.
2) They can make the 'presentation layer' spiffy without having to worry abut what's underneath. A lot of effort goes into making sure everything looks 'right' on the shelf. Any kind of disorderly shelf gives customers a bad impression.
3) Easy pricing changes. My local 'Drug Mart' they have the 'pricing girl' constantly changing tags. I literally recognize the woman. With the prices on a display, it makes it much easier to manage.
4) Creative possibilities: beyond just displaying 'what's inside' there will be other opportunities. Possibly more detailed product information.
My biggest concern would be frankly the size of those screens and their cost and maintenance - and would the added benefits work out in the metrics. For 3 mid-sized screens at your coffee shop - yes. But for 10-20 large screens (that move, and could be broken) in the back of your grocery store, maybe not.
This is definitely a worthwhile retail experiment.
I suggest we may be seeing a lot more of this in the future.
Maybe not, but it's entirely possible.
> generates more attention
Fuck you.
That's really all I have to say about that. I'm sorry this comment doesn't pass the general HN guidelines, but I hope someday you realize why you should feel ashamed for even thinking that this is a good idea.
Fuck you.
That's really all I have to say about that. I'm sorry this comment doesn't pass the general HN guidelines, but I hope someday you realize why you should feel ashamed for even thinking that this is a good idea.
Ad-hominem aside, I don't even know what you're getting at.
You realize that 100% of the packaging in the store is designed for that reason? And it's why everything isn't in brown paper bags?
You realize that 100% of the packaging in the store is designed for that reason? And it's why everything isn't in brown paper bags?
I suspect they're getting at the idea that taking people's attention by abusing the fact that people involuntarily look at distracting flashy moving things is bad, not good.
If 100% of the packaging in the store was animated and flashing, would you think that was a worse experience, at the same time as being more attention grabbing?
If 100% of the packaging in the store was animated and flashing, would you think that was a worse experience, at the same time as being more attention grabbing?
There's too much cynicism everywhere nowadays. It seems that modern society has become full-on technophobic. Even HN discussions, which you'd think would be a bunch of technophiles. However, the headline and original twitter thread do especially tend to attract such a crowd. If it was a thread titled ""look at this amazing high-tech convenience store in Tokyo" or something, the discussion may hove gone completely differently.
Though in fairness there's also a more wonkish HN-specific mockery of an over-engineered product failing to perform as well as a cheap pane of glass. I got a tablet PC in the relatively early days and people would joke how their 99 cent notepad graphically outperformed my $2000 fujitsu. But obviously my clunky early tablet PC could do far more other things even then.
Though in fairness there's also a more wonkish HN-specific mockery of an over-engineered product failing to perform as well as a cheap pane of glass. I got a tablet PC in the relatively early days and people would joke how their 99 cent notepad graphically outperformed my $2000 fujitsu. But obviously my clunky early tablet PC could do far more other things even then.
> There's way too much cynicism here
If you sold this as AR using expensive glasses everyone is a believer.
> Easy pricing changes.
Prices that change by the hour, or as stock runs low is an interesting idea. Corporate could bring in a hourly special. Corporate has total brand control. Corporate can pull items by hiding them if said company doesn't want to pay for peak. The camera can give you personal specials.
The power is in corporate control. The weakness is the complexity you mention.
I suspect the cameras might be the what's really going on. Camera's by themselves wouldn't be acceptable. Comes with fancy screens though...
If you sold this as AR using expensive glasses everyone is a believer.
> Easy pricing changes.
Prices that change by the hour, or as stock runs low is an interesting idea. Corporate could bring in a hourly special. Corporate has total brand control. Corporate can pull items by hiding them if said company doesn't want to pay for peak. The camera can give you personal specials.
The power is in corporate control. The weakness is the complexity you mention.
I suspect the cameras might be the what's really going on. Camera's by themselves wouldn't be acceptable. Comes with fancy screens though...
Not wanting an overtly fancy contraption you pick a no frills unit that includes a touch screen along the side. A few hours later it arrives. Setting it up was almost as easy as your old one. Plug it in, enter your wi-fi password, and a credit card to start your free pro trial of the monthly subscription service that tweets at you when the toast is done. It says you can cancel at anytime but it requires a 5 day waiting period. It also requires access to your contacts.
Tired and just wanting your toast you agree. You insert two slices of white bread and press the big red GO button on the touch screen. An electrical motor whines from inside the toaster at it begins to retract the toast into itself. There's a few seconds of silence as the toaster slowly heat ups. While awkwardly standing there you notice the touch screen flickers and begins to display a buffering icon. An ad for I Can't Believe it's Not Butter begins to play. To make matters worse you can't even ignore it by looking away due to a small tinny sounding speaker playing the company's jingle.
This is your new morning routine.
Welcome to the future.