Why we should learn German(theguardian.com)
theguardian.com
Why we should learn German
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/jul/02/why-we-should-learn-german-john-le-carre
94 comments
I have wondered if Samoan is the most beautiful-sounding language I have heard of. I don't speak it but have heard a little.
edit: some quick examples I found:
- This one (speaking in a room, not great audio, but at say 1:28:00 OR 1:45:00): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFwiIMtdoQU
- or some nice-sounding music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jfx6SoyH1kE
- or "talofa" as "hi": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XLt5Bw_xag
- or the Lord's prayer in Samoan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCiEIzDQzyo (has a very soft, nice ring to it)
edit: some quick examples I found:
- This one (speaking in a room, not great audio, but at say 1:28:00 OR 1:45:00): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFwiIMtdoQU
- or some nice-sounding music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jfx6SoyH1kE
- or "talofa" as "hi": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XLt5Bw_xag
- or the Lord's prayer in Samoan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCiEIzDQzyo (has a very soft, nice ring to it)
Could you give an example of soft-speaking romantic german language? Like a video or something.
German here. This is a recording of "Willkommen und Abschied" by Goethe. It's a beautiful poem and I find that this recording does it justice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mgd0JYKu14Q
My father said that when he heard a record of Lotte Lenya's, he couldn't believe that German could sound like that. Such German as he then knew, he had learned in the Army and then at an all-male college.
Ave Maria by Schubert (Barbara Bonney)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CM0W98t9KSU
Sorry, but any normal speaking? Opera like this sounds exactly the same to me regardless of language so it is harder to compare.
I'm an American that has lived in Berlin for over 3 years now, so I'm very used to the language (if not exactly fluent). And one of the early surprises for me was how soft and beautiful it can sound when spoken by a woman.
An example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEJDJnnfRc8
And this is more of a joke video, but it shows how most of the reputation of German being harsh comes more from its typical usage in movies than anything fundamentally harsh about the language: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLvL7a8Y0pI
An example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEJDJnnfRc8
And this is more of a joke video, but it shows how most of the reputation of German being harsh comes more from its typical usage in movies than anything fundamentally harsh about the language: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLvL7a8Y0pI
I really like German for its expressivity. I would not say it is more expressive than English, but differently. There are many things that are easy to say in German but very hard in other languages, and vice versa.
"Schadenfreude" is well-known, but one word I wanted to use often in recent times is "Missgunst" or "missgönnen": When you don't want somebody to have something. It's not jealousy, it is resenting somebody for their fortune. Google translate offers "resentment", but it doesn't fit perfectly, as that can also mean you just hold a grudge towards somebody. "Missgönnen" is the opposite of "gönnen", which means to be generous, to grant something, to be happy for somebody's fortune.
"Schadenfreude" is well-known, but one word I wanted to use often in recent times is "Missgunst" or "missgönnen": When you don't want somebody to have something. It's not jealousy, it is resenting somebody for their fortune. Google translate offers "resentment", but it doesn't fit perfectly, as that can also mean you just hold a grudge towards somebody. "Missgönnen" is the opposite of "gönnen", which means to be generous, to grant something, to be happy for somebody's fortune.
You can say things like
Eifersucht ist Leidenschaft, die mit
Eifer sucht was Leiden schafft.
Jealousy is a passion, that
zealously searches what brings suffering.
A Czech told me that Czech is possibly the most complicated language of the world. Not really difficult but you have to learn hundreds of different forms.
Czech is complex, but there are way less exceptions compared to german. Pronunciation is literal, if you know how a word is spelled you know how to pronounce it.
Then it has high phonemic orthography (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonemic_orthography).
Oh you should try Hungarian then ... Studied both for a while. At least for me Hungarian was magnitudes worse to learn.
Still both languages have interesting concepts.
Still both languages have interesting concepts.
I always enjoyed Elefantenrennen: Literally meaning "Elephant Racing".
(If anyone is curious and can't read DE wikipedia, its when a truck tries to pass another truck on a highway and can't get by immediately, thus slowing all the traffic behind.)
(If anyone is curious and can't read DE wikipedia, its when a truck tries to pass another truck on a highway and can't get by immediately, thus slowing all the traffic behind.)
> It's not jealousy, it is resenting somebody for their fortune.
I think in the Christian tradition, this would be called envy, in Dutch it would be Afgunst, the German version of the Dutch Wikipedia page for Afgunst is Missgunst. Of course, die Missgunst ist nicht ganz der Neid.
I think in the Christian tradition, this would be called envy, in Dutch it would be Afgunst, the German version of the Dutch Wikipedia page for Afgunst is Missgunst. Of course, die Missgunst ist nicht ganz der Neid.
Envy/Neid to me means that there is something you want that the other person has, which isn't required for Missgunst. (and envy doesn't have to be as negative)
I am Dutch, we seem to have some feeling for languages (small country and when I was young, the television would have BBC (English), ZDF (German), BRT (Flemmish) some French channels and really bad Dutch tv), I speak 6 languages including German fluent enough to make jokes and I am trying to learn #7, Mandarin, which is indeed quite hard when you get older. Of the languages I interact with, I find Flemmish, German & Mandarin the most pleasant to listen to. It is always a pleasure when the plane enters CN airspace and the soothing sounds of that language come up, while, on the other hand, German triggers my analytical senses. German sentences (especially from writers like Boll) somehow seem more provocative for the brain than my mother tongue. Flemmish has that too for me, but it needs to be well written and that is not that common, still when it is (Lampo for instance), it is a feast.
There is a deep fallacy in his argument. The academic learning of a language teaches almost nothing. The true challenge is not foreign vocabulary it is the reluctance to engage another culture, which is the prerequisite to learning any language. The author does not make this distinction possibly because he was stationed in a German-speaking country and assumes each language learner can mimic his learning process without his experience.
Often, one won't even attempt to learn a language unless you appreciate - or at least think you appreciate - the culture.
Often, one won't even attempt to learn a language unless you appreciate - or at least think you appreciate - the culture.
I learned English playing MMORPGs. I didn't give a damn about the culture, I just wanted to communicate with people. This means I do not understand some pop culture references, but I can speak quite fluently without having cared about English speaking countries' culture.
> I learned English playing MMORPGs. I didn't give a damn about the culture
MMORPGs were created by americans and is part of american culture...
> This means I do not understand some pop culture references
Culture isn't just pop culture.
> but I can speak quite fluently without having cared about English speaking countries' culture.
That's fine. But I find it highly unlikely. Especially considering "anglo" ( particularly american ) culture is so world dominant.
MMORPGs were created by americans and is part of american culture...
> This means I do not understand some pop culture references
Culture isn't just pop culture.
> but I can speak quite fluently without having cared about English speaking countries' culture.
That's fine. But I find it highly unlikely. Especially considering "anglo" ( particularly american ) culture is so world dominant.
Many people will learn English because they want to communicate with others (who often also learn English for the same reason). Not because they have any interest in anglophone culture (if such a thing exists).
True, but English is kind of a special case, being today's lingua franca in many areas of the world.
I didn't read it like that. More the joy of exploring another language.
“I speak Spanish to God, Italian to women, French to men, and German to my horse.” — Charles V
Just wondering what you want to express with that. Do you also equate Germans with animals or why did you share the quote? (quality discussions at HN again)
Edit: also the quote is not verified ... Seems like Charles V never said it :P
Edit: also the quote is not verified ... Seems like Charles V never said it :P
I believe the implication was most likely that German happens to sound very stern and commanding to many english speakers. Presumably the speaker would want to be speaking German because they believe it would intimidate the horse into performing very efficiently.
I would be surprised to learn that Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor, was an English speaker.
True, although I'd be equally surprised if he said exactly that as well ;)
I guessed so. Yet, I felt quite offended by the first post (I"m German, speak Spanish, French English and Japanese).
Don't feel German is necessarily harsh. It seems the perception is mostly from Prussian German ...
Don't feel German is necessarily harsh. It seems the perception is mostly from Prussian German ...
the quote is a joke, you don't need to be offended
I'm german too and feel like being offended by jokes like that just proves the stereotype... I mean come on, german is truly not the "language of love".
I don't think so ... as I mentioned before the current perception of the German language has a lot to do with Prussia and Nazi Germany (first and second world war), as well as Hollywood movies. I can't find the reference, but one of the most common German sentences in movies was "Halt!" (Stop) followed by "Papiere bitte!" (Papers Please).
German was before the wars considered the language of poets and thinkers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Vy9aqDPYWA
It's all about perception. I don't think there are objective measures to tell if a language is better at conveying certain feelings (or better at certain tasks). If somebody knows research around this topic I would be very interested.
For me, I prefer English for anything academic and work related. German I often fall back to when I'm talking about feelings and emotions. You might argue it's because it's my mother tongue. However, I have the feeling (subjective) that German has more words to express mind and feeling related concepts (maybe due to Freud,Nitsche etc. a lot of the terms are also used in English: Angst, ... ).
Sorry, being offended is something I cannot control. I know it's stupid. In this case (also pointed out by other commenters) it might provide proof of the stereotype that Germans don't understand humour :P
Edit: typos
German was before the wars considered the language of poets and thinkers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Vy9aqDPYWA
It's all about perception. I don't think there are objective measures to tell if a language is better at conveying certain feelings (or better at certain tasks). If somebody knows research around this topic I would be very interested.
For me, I prefer English for anything academic and work related. German I often fall back to when I'm talking about feelings and emotions. You might argue it's because it's my mother tongue. However, I have the feeling (subjective) that German has more words to express mind and feeling related concepts (maybe due to Freud,Nitsche etc. a lot of the terms are also used in English: Angst, ... ).
Sorry, being offended is something I cannot control. I know it's stupid. In this case (also pointed out by other commenters) it might provide proof of the stereotype that Germans don't understand humour :P
Edit: typos
I think Goethe, Brecht, Schiller and the rest of the German poets would disagree ;)
Couldn't you say the same for any love poet from any language?
Poetry is about rythm, contrasts, word play and many other things in addition to phonetics.
I'm afraid that doesn't change the fact that German is the most memeified language
Poetry is about rythm, contrasts, word play and many other things in addition to phonetics.
I'm afraid that doesn't change the fact that German is the most memeified language
don't worry, he's just helping to further other German stereotypes
Many animal trainers (be it for circus, dogs, etc) use german because (supposedly) their animals can perceive and memorize its sounds better.
Also could be a safety measure e.g. in Russia service dogs are trained with most commands in Russian except for the "Attack!" which is German's "Fass!". I figure you don't want a dog to hear a word from a conversation and execute as if it was a command.
Most German dogs are trained in German as well, so the "security through obscurity" aspect is probably more of an afterthought. My personal guess is that an influential dog trainer happened to be German and followers of the method adapted the commands without translating them. Unfortunately I couldn't find out who that might have been.
Indeed could be the case. What I find is that German is good as an authoritative language. Makes the voice expressions deeper and doesn't include "niceties". This is also a fruit of the culture, Germans very seldom (if ever) apologise.
I wasn't taken serious when arguing in German because I would apologise often (Portuguese culture) and often say: "I'm sorry, but you are wrong", just to get a rebuke such as: "So you apologize, you recognise you are the one wrong".
Even translating from German to English or other languages you see how direct the language really is. For example, to convince someone to something else we usually start with "If you wouldn't mind, can you please do (...), thanks!", while Germans will often shorten to just "Bitte machen (...)" where the bitte portion is not really heartfelt and doesn't end with a thank you.
You'll hear them replying when inquired if this isn't rude behaviour: "It's her job, no need to thank".
I wasn't taken serious when arguing in German because I would apologise often (Portuguese culture) and often say: "I'm sorry, but you are wrong", just to get a rebuke such as: "So you apologize, you recognise you are the one wrong".
Even translating from German to English or other languages you see how direct the language really is. For example, to convince someone to something else we usually start with "If you wouldn't mind, can you please do (...), thanks!", while Germans will often shorten to just "Bitte machen (...)" where the bitte portion is not really heartfelt and doesn't end with a thank you.
You'll hear them replying when inquired if this isn't rude behaviour: "It's her job, no need to thank".
I appreciate this aspect a lot when I travel to germany. It's not so much that they are rude and don't apologize, it's mostly that they're very direct and to the point. no politeness decorations.
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I think accidental orders are not actually a problem, it's not just a sound in a conversation that can trigger it, but also how you say it, with body language and context.
By conversation I mean the dog handler giving orders to an adversary as an example and not somebody chatting his friends on a phone. Gesture commands are also trained but to pass training the dog has to be able to execute commands entirely by voice because in situations these dogs serve the handler might be unable to move.
A neighbor's dog was trained to respond to commands in Japanese, though neither of them spoke it. This was in Washington, DC, so I guess that it greatly reduced the chances of the dog responding to somebody else's commands.
I can't remember who but we have something similar in poetry around here. Probably some old Danish or Norwegian poet:
Latin for writing
French for the women
German for the dog
and Danish for the servant
Latin for writing
French for the women
German for the dog
and Danish for the servant
Nice quote... Very funny..
I almost died right there.
>> J.Le Carre: "And I discovered that the language fitted me. It fitted my tongue. It pleased my Nordic ear."
After learning several european languages, I once went to Romania, and enjoyed how nice romanian sounds. I was always thinking why we perceive some languages sound nice and some others not. How languages are perceived depend on the backgrounds of speaker and listener, on the context we're in, on which part of the mouth they are spoken and on the pitch level etc. So a good test is to see the languages spoken by a beautiful seductive person, during dispute, during business negotiation, in pop culture, during manly talks full of testosterone, in the mouths of immigrants and lower classes.While I worked in Germany, a test I was making was to ask someone from a non-neighbor, remote country like Cambodia how German/French or Spanish sounds. At the end all languages sound nice in some context.
After learning several european languages, I once went to Romania, and enjoyed how nice romanian sounds. I was always thinking why we perceive some languages sound nice and some others not. How languages are perceived depend on the backgrounds of speaker and listener, on the context we're in, on which part of the mouth they are spoken and on the pitch level etc. So a good test is to see the languages spoken by a beautiful seductive person, during dispute, during business negotiation, in pop culture, during manly talks full of testosterone, in the mouths of immigrants and lower classes.While I worked in Germany, a test I was making was to ask someone from a non-neighbor, remote country like Cambodia how German/French or Spanish sounds. At the end all languages sound nice in some context.
A corollary is what accents sound nice is different languages. I have been told that American accents sound awful in Danish, and French accents sounds nice.
I think Spanish, Italian, Portuguese sound nice in English, even when the accents are quite thick. French can sometimes be variant, a really thick French sounds worse than thick Italian I believe. German accents do not sound that nice. A really good Danish accent often tends to sound nice, whereas the thicker ones are just awful, dull and plodding. These are of course my own perceptions but I wonder if there are any studies of accent preferences across cultures.
I think Spanish, Italian, Portuguese sound nice in English, even when the accents are quite thick. French can sometimes be variant, a really thick French sounds worse than thick Italian I believe. German accents do not sound that nice. A really good Danish accent often tends to sound nice, whereas the thicker ones are just awful, dull and plodding. These are of course my own perceptions but I wonder if there are any studies of accent preferences across cultures.
Interesting how some people find the sound of German natural. I find German sounds extremely difficult to pronounce with all these consonants next to each other.
English is not the easiest to pronounce either but it seems easier than German. Dutch sounds like a clearer version of German but with a funny 'g' sound.
Italian is so clean and simple, even if you don't speak it, you can probably tell each word apart.
French is pretty clear and easy to pronounce, I rarely ever ask people to repeat themselves in French. It uses a broad sound spectrum with lots of open-mouth sounds (lots of vowels and vowel combinations which produce new sounds).
It's very easy to start muttering in English because you barely need to open your mouth to speak it.
English is not the easiest to pronounce either but it seems easier than German. Dutch sounds like a clearer version of German but with a funny 'g' sound.
Italian is so clean and simple, even if you don't speak it, you can probably tell each word apart.
French is pretty clear and easy to pronounce, I rarely ever ask people to repeat themselves in French. It uses a broad sound spectrum with lots of open-mouth sounds (lots of vowels and vowel combinations which produce new sounds).
It's very easy to start muttering in English because you barely need to open your mouth to speak it.
It probably depends on which your mother tongue is. I'm Italian and I find German easier to pronounce than English. Plus it has precisely defined and easy pronunciation rules, so when you know them you're able to correctly pronounce every german word. The same doesn't hold true for English.
As a German, the consonant distribution feels pretty balanced compared to for example Czech: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strč_prst_skrz_krk
> French is pretty clear and easy to pronounce,
After half an hour of French, I often have difficulties pronouncing properly the difference between en, on, un and in(-ternet).
> I rarely ever ask people to repeat themselves in French
Among the two other non-native langauges (EN, PT), it has been the hardest to understand for me because it's hard to map sounds back to writing.
After half an hour of French, I often have difficulties pronouncing properly the difference between en, on, un and in(-ternet).
> I rarely ever ask people to repeat themselves in French
Among the two other non-native langauges (EN, PT), it has been the hardest to understand for me because it's hard to map sounds back to writing.
A lot of French people pronounce un and in the same way
> After half an hour of French, I often have difficulties pronouncing properly the difference between en, on, un and in(-ternet).
I find this very interesting, mainly because I see similar effects when I'm using a foreign language :)
For a long time, I felt that speaking in a certain language forces me to "shift" my language brain to a degree. German is my mother tongue, but I have trouble pronouncing e.g. German names correctly within an English sentence. The opposite - English words in German context - isn't really a problem, although that might be the product of modern German adopting more and more English words into the common vocabulary.
I also recall having trouble with the German-style "R" in a french context.
As a side note, I do hope they won't butcher all those English words in the future like they did the French ones :-/
I find this very interesting, mainly because I see similar effects when I'm using a foreign language :)
For a long time, I felt that speaking in a certain language forces me to "shift" my language brain to a degree. German is my mother tongue, but I have trouble pronouncing e.g. German names correctly within an English sentence. The opposite - English words in German context - isn't really a problem, although that might be the product of modern German adopting more and more English words into the common vocabulary.
I also recall having trouble with the German-style "R" in a french context.
As a side note, I do hope they won't butcher all those English words in the future like they did the French ones :-/
German has fewer weird consonant clashes than English... Lots of common English words tend to lose their vowel sounds when spoken out loud - "squirrel" is notorious, but "turle", "hurdler", "wyrm" and suchlike are very light on vowel sounds compared to their German equivalents...
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> I find German sounds extremely difficult to pronounce with all these consonants next to each other.
Heh, have a look at Polish, it sometimes gives the impression it could do away with vowels altogether.
Heh, have a look at Polish, it sometimes gives the impression it could do away with vowels altogether.
"Rather than join the chorus of anti-German propaganda, he preferred, doggedly, to inspire his little class with the beauty of the language, and of its literature and culture."
That was in 1940. In 2017 those languages would be farsi, russian and chinese i guess?
That was in 1940. In 2017 those languages would be farsi, russian and chinese i guess?
I haven't seen any contemporary anti-Iran/Afghanistan, anti-Russian, or anti-Chinese propaganda use the language or culture against them... except perhaps the mass-media "comedy" industry making offensive Russian accents while insinuating things. I doubt most people could identify Farsi readily enough to understand the propaganda. I don't think all that many people could tell you if they're looking at Chinese, Japanese, or Korean text; Two of these languages' countries are basically universally beloved in the U.S, so it'd be hard to make visual (or even audible) propaganda out of it. I guess Russian might be the easiest of the three to use in propaganda. :- P
> except perhaps the mass-media "comedy" industry making offensive Russian accents while insinuating things.
Really? You haven't seen any offensive chinese/asian "accents"?
> I doubt most people could identify Farsi readily enough to understand the propaganda
We generally mock them as sounding arabic with harsh guttural sounds. The exaggerated "phlegm" in the throat sounds.
> I don't think all that many people could tell you if they're looking at Chinese, Japanese, or Korean text;
Does it matter?
> Two of these languages' countries are basically universally beloved in the U.S
Which two are universally beloved in the US? Certainly not japan and korea...
> so it'd be hard to make visual (or even audible) propaganda out of it.
You can... But we just assign the propaganda towards "north korea" because we want to sell movies in china/japan/korea.
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/mar/16/entertainment/la-et-...
There most definitely is an anti-russian, anti-china/asia, anti-iran/middle east/muslim, etc "sentiment" in the US. Just because you know a few cosplay fanatics doesn't mean the US "loves" these asian countries. The truth of the matter is that we view them as competitors at best and enemies at worst.
Really? You haven't seen any offensive chinese/asian "accents"?
> I doubt most people could identify Farsi readily enough to understand the propaganda
We generally mock them as sounding arabic with harsh guttural sounds. The exaggerated "phlegm" in the throat sounds.
> I don't think all that many people could tell you if they're looking at Chinese, Japanese, or Korean text;
Does it matter?
> Two of these languages' countries are basically universally beloved in the U.S
Which two are universally beloved in the US? Certainly not japan and korea...
> so it'd be hard to make visual (or even audible) propaganda out of it.
You can... But we just assign the propaganda towards "north korea" because we want to sell movies in china/japan/korea.
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/mar/16/entertainment/la-et-...
There most definitely is an anti-russian, anti-china/asia, anti-iran/middle east/muslim, etc "sentiment" in the US. Just because you know a few cosplay fanatics doesn't mean the US "loves" these asian countries. The truth of the matter is that we view them as competitors at best and enemies at worst.
> The truth of the matter is that we view them as competitors at best and enemies at worst.
What's wrong with being competitors? Japan gained the most public respect in the U.S. when it looked like they were kicking America's ass in manufacturing and high technology.
> There most definitely is an anti-russian, anti-china/asia, anti-iran/middle east/muslim, etc "sentiment" in the US.
I was mainly saying that you don't tend to see the language used as a tool for propaganda. I'm not saying that some people don't feel animosity toward china, north Korea, Iran (I actually don't see anyone complaining about Afghanistan these days), and Russia; I'm just saying that their languages aren't being used in propaganda like German was used in anti-Nazi propaganda.
> Which two are universally beloved in the US? Certainly not japan and korea...
The only people I hear complain about (South) Korea are Japanese people, and the only people I hear complain about the Japanese are Chinese and Korean people. Maybe I live in a bubble, but I would think I'd run into somebody with one of these prejudices over the years, if it were a big thing.
What's wrong with being competitors? Japan gained the most public respect in the U.S. when it looked like they were kicking America's ass in manufacturing and high technology.
> There most definitely is an anti-russian, anti-china/asia, anti-iran/middle east/muslim, etc "sentiment" in the US.
I was mainly saying that you don't tend to see the language used as a tool for propaganda. I'm not saying that some people don't feel animosity toward china, north Korea, Iran (I actually don't see anyone complaining about Afghanistan these days), and Russia; I'm just saying that their languages aren't being used in propaganda like German was used in anti-Nazi propaganda.
> Which two are universally beloved in the US? Certainly not japan and korea...
The only people I hear complain about (South) Korea are Japanese people, and the only people I hear complain about the Japanese are Chinese and Korean people. Maybe I live in a bubble, but I would think I'd run into somebody with one of these prejudices over the years, if it were a big thing.
> What's wrong with being competitors?
Nothing. My point is that they are competitors AT BEST. Unlike say our fellow anglo nations like canada/britain/new zealand/etc who are our "family/friends" at best.
My point is that china will never be our "friend/family".
> Japan gained the most public respect in the U.S. when it looked like they were kicking America's ass in manufacturing and high technology.
They did? Asians were mistaken for being japanese and killed. Doesn't seem like "respect". I know plenty of people who still hate the japanese to this day and blamed them for the decline of american industry.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Vincent_Chin
Sure, the chinese have overtaken the japanese now, but the "respect" is highly superficial.
> I was mainly saying that you don't tend to see the language used as a tool for propaganda.
Really? You don't see people mocking chinese for sounding "silly"?
> I'm just saying that their languages aren't being used in propaganda like German was used in anti-Nazi propaganda.
That's because there are other differences to attack the chinese. Germans are fellow white northerner europeans. We can't attack them for being "white like us". We have to find something different about them to attack. With the chinese, there are plenty of differences to attack.
> The only people I hear complain about (South) Korea are Japanese people
Really? I know military personnel stationed in south korea. I have friends who visited south korea on business. Many of them had bad things to say about them.
> Maybe I live in a bubble, but I would think I'd run into somebody with one of these prejudices over the years, if it were a big thing.
Maybe you do. I'm from NYC. Where did you grow up? I'm not saying EVERYONE hates them. I'm saying there are plenty of anti-chinese, anti-japanese and anti-korean sentiment in the US ( including highly liberal areas like NY metro ).
Why do you think Trump got elected bashing china, japan and korea?
Nothing. My point is that they are competitors AT BEST. Unlike say our fellow anglo nations like canada/britain/new zealand/etc who are our "family/friends" at best.
My point is that china will never be our "friend/family".
> Japan gained the most public respect in the U.S. when it looked like they were kicking America's ass in manufacturing and high technology.
They did? Asians were mistaken for being japanese and killed. Doesn't seem like "respect". I know plenty of people who still hate the japanese to this day and blamed them for the decline of american industry.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Vincent_Chin
Sure, the chinese have overtaken the japanese now, but the "respect" is highly superficial.
> I was mainly saying that you don't tend to see the language used as a tool for propaganda.
Really? You don't see people mocking chinese for sounding "silly"?
> I'm just saying that their languages aren't being used in propaganda like German was used in anti-Nazi propaganda.
That's because there are other differences to attack the chinese. Germans are fellow white northerner europeans. We can't attack them for being "white like us". We have to find something different about them to attack. With the chinese, there are plenty of differences to attack.
> The only people I hear complain about (South) Korea are Japanese people
Really? I know military personnel stationed in south korea. I have friends who visited south korea on business. Many of them had bad things to say about them.
> Maybe I live in a bubble, but I would think I'd run into somebody with one of these prejudices over the years, if it were a big thing.
Maybe you do. I'm from NYC. Where did you grow up? I'm not saying EVERYONE hates them. I'm saying there are plenty of anti-chinese, anti-japanese and anti-korean sentiment in the US ( including highly liberal areas like NY metro ).
Why do you think Trump got elected bashing china, japan and korea?
> There most definitely is an anti-russian, anti-china/asia, anti-iran/middle east/muslim, etc "sentiment" in the US.
Can you provide some examples? Especially for anti-China/Asia sentiments.
Can you provide some examples? Especially for anti-China/Asia sentiments.
I thought I did.
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/mar/16/entertainment/la-et-...
Or you could check the daily south china sea propaganda. The mass propaganda concerning Liu Xiaobo's death. The anti-chinese pro-tibet propaganda.
"China's Threat to the U.S. - The Atlantic"
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/12/chinas-...
"China next US threat? Beijing beefs up military to protect trade"
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/03/15/china-next-us-threat...
Our anti-chinese pivot to asia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Asian_foreign_policy_of_t...
And of course there is a negative anti-chinese/chinese american stereotypes/racism/cultural dislike/etc in the US.
China has consistently been viewed as one of our greatest enemy.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/189503/four-nations-top-greatest-...
Mind you, this poll is only about who are TOP enemy is. If we did a poll on whether we viewed china as an enemy, a significant majority would list china as an enemy.
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/mar/16/entertainment/la-et-...
Or you could check the daily south china sea propaganda. The mass propaganda concerning Liu Xiaobo's death. The anti-chinese pro-tibet propaganda.
"China's Threat to the U.S. - The Atlantic"
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/12/chinas-...
"China next US threat? Beijing beefs up military to protect trade"
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/03/15/china-next-us-threat...
Our anti-chinese pivot to asia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Asian_foreign_policy_of_t...
And of course there is a negative anti-chinese/chinese american stereotypes/racism/cultural dislike/etc in the US.
China has consistently been viewed as one of our greatest enemy.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/189503/four-nations-top-greatest-...
Mind you, this poll is only about who are TOP enemy is. If we did a poll on whether we viewed china as an enemy, a significant majority would list china as an enemy.
I came for the linguistics and left disappointed for the end devoted to politics. There's a point to it, I suppose.
Well, it's the Graun, of course it's political
Every time I hear a British politician utter the fatal words, “Let me be very clear”, these days I reach for my revolver.
That's an... unexpected reference!
Every time I hear a British politician utter the fatal words, “Let me be very clear”, these days I reach for my revolver.
That's an... unexpected reference!
It's probably very presumptuous to compare myself to the writer, but for me it's kind of the other way round.
My native tongue is German (but I grew up speaking Bavarian first, which is clearly German but not just pronounced differently, there are also some grammatical peculiarities...) but I started to learn English pretty early - and all things considered I much more prefer English to German. I've never lived abroad and spoken it daily for more than 3 weeks (unless you count the internet) - but going into programming it's the lingua franca, I don't think I've read even 10 German books about programming or computer science. Still, if I'm not talking daily (like with coworkers who don't speak German) my use gets rusty and faltering and so I wouldn't call myself absolutely fluent when being honest and not just padding a resume :P
Still, I prefer the sound of English, I like many more English dialects than German ones, and even puns are easier to craft ;)
But overall I wouldn't advise anyone to not learn German, at least if you like hard work, pain and humiliation.
My native tongue is German (but I grew up speaking Bavarian first, which is clearly German but not just pronounced differently, there are also some grammatical peculiarities...) but I started to learn English pretty early - and all things considered I much more prefer English to German. I've never lived abroad and spoken it daily for more than 3 weeks (unless you count the internet) - but going into programming it's the lingua franca, I don't think I've read even 10 German books about programming or computer science. Still, if I'm not talking daily (like with coworkers who don't speak German) my use gets rusty and faltering and so I wouldn't call myself absolutely fluent when being honest and not just padding a resume :P
Still, I prefer the sound of English, I like many more English dialects than German ones, and even puns are easier to craft ;)
But overall I wouldn't advise anyone to not learn German, at least if you like hard work, pain and humiliation.
I'm fluent in German, French and English. None of them is my native language, but I prefer German when watching action/war movies. And French/English for comedy/drama.
I think German has that "power" in it that you wouldn't find in other languages. I also like German poetry.
German is a beautiful language with a lot to offer (poetry, books or even movies).
I think German has that "power" in it that you wouldn't find in other languages. I also like German poetry.
German is a beautiful language with a lot to offer (poetry, books or even movies).
I think to some extent linguistic relativity might be a thing. Linguistic relativity is the idea that language affects your world perspective.
Some languages such as Spanish and French encode a lot of irrelevant information compared to English. e.g: objects like chairs and computers have a gender, words tend to be longer, verb conjugation is more complex... and that eventually translates into more cognitive load.
Some languages such as Spanish and French encode a lot of irrelevant information compared to English. e.g: objects like chairs and computers have a gender, words tend to be longer, verb conjugation is more complex... and that eventually translates into more cognitive load.
All of those features can lessen ambiguity in other ways though, so that's probably the trade-off at work.
Weak linguistic relativity is pretty well attested. I've seen people misattribute or assume qualities about unrelated entities that share a name, e.g. assuming that something true of "milk" is also true of "soy milk". That example is similar to the idea of overextending a metaphor, and since every language has its own particular metaphors, that's likely among the most common ways that a linguistic feature impacts our worldview. Whether or not there are syntactic features that do the same is more debatable, but it's plausible that adjective ordering, pronoun systems, etc. might have an effect.
Weak linguistic relativity is pretty well attested. I've seen people misattribute or assume qualities about unrelated entities that share a name, e.g. assuming that something true of "milk" is also true of "soy milk". That example is similar to the idea of overextending a metaphor, and since every language has its own particular metaphors, that's likely among the most common ways that a linguistic feature impacts our worldview. Whether or not there are syntactic features that do the same is more debatable, but it's plausible that adjective ordering, pronoun systems, etc. might have an effect.
Check out Sapir Whorf theory (the "weak" version. The strong one is most likely bs)
I really wish I had the patience to read this, but the title is just too damn boring and I see no all-inclusive reason to learn German outside of a German speaking country.
If anyone could TLDR, I would appreciate, but at the same time you shouldn't encourage my sloth.
If anyone could TLDR, I would appreciate, but at the same time you shouldn't encourage my sloth.
As a side note, as a German I could not help but chuckle about John le Carré smuggling this into the essay:
Every time I hear a British politician utter the fatal words, “Let me be very clear”, these days I reach for my revolver.
> To help make the European debate decent and civilised, it is now more important than ever to value the skills of the linguist
Personally I think the German establishment is just trying to conquer Europe again, as much respect as I have für die Deutschen und ihre Sprache. Today, Britain needs no additional sympathy for Germany, they need sympathy for themselves, a will to live. The EU is unrepresentative, unproductive, and unaccountable. Nobody needs any more reverence for it. The EU is the worst French idea the Germans ever took to.
Germany is today a country where foreign journalists are chased through the street by communist activists, and where you need a license to post a video on YouTube. If your teacher's beloved Germany ever returned, it is surely leaving yet again. I talk to Germans who are fleeing to Austria, because they feel something wicked coming, and I don't blame them.
Britons could stand to learn from Germany's mistakes and be more honest with themselves before it's too late for anyone to be honest with anyone.
Personally I think the German establishment is just trying to conquer Europe again, as much respect as I have für die Deutschen und ihre Sprache. Today, Britain needs no additional sympathy for Germany, they need sympathy for themselves, a will to live. The EU is unrepresentative, unproductive, and unaccountable. Nobody needs any more reverence for it. The EU is the worst French idea the Germans ever took to.
Germany is today a country where foreign journalists are chased through the street by communist activists, and where you need a license to post a video on YouTube. If your teacher's beloved Germany ever returned, it is surely leaving yet again. I talk to Germans who are fleeing to Austria, because they feel something wicked coming, and I don't blame them.
Britons could stand to learn from Germany's mistakes and be more honest with themselves before it's too late for anyone to be honest with anyone.
Germans also flee to Switzerland, Spain, Portugal, UK, US and just about any other interesting country. I live here in Germany and last year was living in London for a year so I've seen these arguments before.
Please allow me to say that this isn't a perfect land and that "hate speech" is indeed abused to silence the masses (especially regarding fake refugees). However can guarantee you that it is no police state, especially when compared to the UK where everything is controlled and monitored heavily (nanny state).
As for conquering Europe, in the end its all about business. You're blaming other countries when they understand the game and score well on it.
Please allow me to say that this isn't a perfect land and that "hate speech" is indeed abused to silence the masses (especially regarding fake refugees). However can guarantee you that it is no police state, especially when compared to the UK where everything is controlled and monitored heavily (nanny state).
As for conquering Europe, in the end its all about business. You're blaming other countries when they understand the game and score well on it.
> Please allow me to say that this isn't a perfect land and that "hate speech" is indeed abused to silence the masses (especially regarding fake refugees). However can guarantee you that it is no police state, especially when compared to the UK where everything is controlled and monitored heavily (nanny state).
Also agree with this, they really need to get back the better parts of their tradition. They had Mill, and now they hardly go a year without somebody suggesting universal key escrow or something worse. That said, becoming more continental is not going to help with their nanny state problem.
It's lovely that Germany is not a police state yet.
> As for conquering Europe, in the end its all about business. You're blaming other countries when they understand the game and score well on it.
I agree, which is why I don't think it's in Britons' best interest to give the German establishment what they want.
I wouldn't live in the UK for exactly the reasons you describe, I just don't think more continentalism is going to help alleviate the problems they do have.
Also agree with this, they really need to get back the better parts of their tradition. They had Mill, and now they hardly go a year without somebody suggesting universal key escrow or something worse. That said, becoming more continental is not going to help with their nanny state problem.
It's lovely that Germany is not a police state yet.
> As for conquering Europe, in the end its all about business. You're blaming other countries when they understand the game and score well on it.
I agree, which is why I don't think it's in Britons' best interest to give the German establishment what they want.
I wouldn't live in the UK for exactly the reasons you describe, I just don't think more continentalism is going to help alleviate the problems they do have.
Really sad for the UK direction. Had many friends talking proudly of their goal for a completely isolated/fortified main island.
I was living in London exactly when Brexit happened, so I understand the reasons and respect them. You're right, an exit might be the best for preserving independence and (hopefully) bring economical growth.
Its just that I was born under the EU and grew up with a positive image of what is being built, later growing up and seeing in more detail the good or bad things.
My own country (Portugal) has been affected heavily by Germany and France. However, a thing that I've learned while living in Germany is that their internal politics are even MORE aggressive. Incompetence and failure are fatal in anyones' career around here, so the government officials rising to top don't play around. If one even tries to be corrupt, that person won't last as there exists little complacency. In overall this makes their machine very efficient. Just compare to the UK and the endless NHS discussions.
When Germans seat at a negotiation table, they crush our own politicians from Portugal, making them look like amateurs. I don't fault Germany for having success with EU, I look at our own people so that we can learn and match this game.
I was living in London exactly when Brexit happened, so I understand the reasons and respect them. You're right, an exit might be the best for preserving independence and (hopefully) bring economical growth.
Its just that I was born under the EU and grew up with a positive image of what is being built, later growing up and seeing in more detail the good or bad things.
My own country (Portugal) has been affected heavily by Germany and France. However, a thing that I've learned while living in Germany is that their internal politics are even MORE aggressive. Incompetence and failure are fatal in anyones' career around here, so the government officials rising to top don't play around. If one even tries to be corrupt, that person won't last as there exists little complacency. In overall this makes their machine very efficient. Just compare to the UK and the endless NHS discussions.
When Germans seat at a negotiation table, they crush our own politicians from Portugal, making them look like amateurs. I don't fault Germany for having success with EU, I look at our own people so that we can learn and match this game.
> Today, Britain needs no additional sympathy for Germany, they need sympathy for themselves, a will to live.
As opposed to brexit representing a "will to shoot your own foot"?
> The EU is unrepresentative, unproductive, and unaccountable. Nobody needs any more reverence for it. The EU is the worst French idea the Germans ever took to.
I think you fell for brexit propaganda... The EU bodies are either elected directly or sent by the member state gouvernments, not some unaccountable hereditary monarch.
> Germany is today a country where foreign journalists are chased through the street by communist activists, and where you need a license to post a video on YouTube.
You're nitpicking. Or would it be fair for me to say that GB is not safe for young girls (rotherham...)?
> Britons could stand to learn from Germany's mistakes and be more honest with themselves before it's too late for anyone to be honest with anyone.
I agree completely. How about a little less mass surveillance for a start?
As opposed to brexit representing a "will to shoot your own foot"?
> The EU is unrepresentative, unproductive, and unaccountable. Nobody needs any more reverence for it. The EU is the worst French idea the Germans ever took to.
I think you fell for brexit propaganda... The EU bodies are either elected directly or sent by the member state gouvernments, not some unaccountable hereditary monarch.
> Germany is today a country where foreign journalists are chased through the street by communist activists, and where you need a license to post a video on YouTube.
You're nitpicking. Or would it be fair for me to say that GB is not safe for young girls (rotherham...)?
> Britons could stand to learn from Germany's mistakes and be more honest with themselves before it's too late for anyone to be honest with anyone.
I agree completely. How about a little less mass surveillance for a start?
> not some unaccountable hereditary monarch
This is a strawman - not being a medieval monarchy doesn't mean it isn't representative or accountable by modern standards. I'd also add "transparent".
> a little less mass surveillance for a start
surveillance isn't bad (in public), it's what it's used for.
This is a strawman - not being a medieval monarchy doesn't mean it isn't representative or accountable by modern standards. I'd also add "transparent".
> a little less mass surveillance for a start
surveillance isn't bad (in public), it's what it's used for.
> Germany is today a country where foreign journalists are chased through the street by communist activists
Source?
Source?
Say what you will about these folks, but they were there to report on the G20 protests. A member of the mass media was directing Antifa to find and do something to these foreign journalists, and people were reporting their whereabouts to the people following them. It's a matter of record.
https://youtu.be/Io3VpyL4RoE
https://youtu.be/Io3VpyL4RoE
While it does not justify the completely inappropriate behavior, it might make sense to mention for context that one of the authors of the video is a right wing activist/journalist according to Wikipedia [1].
The claim that Germany is a country where foreign journalists in general have be afraid of being chased is unfounded. This was an incident involving so called right and left wing "activists."
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauren_Southern
The claim that Germany is a country where foreign journalists in general have be afraid of being chased is unfounded. This was an incident involving so called right and left wing "activists."
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauren_Southern
It should be noted that this "member of the mass media" was an unpaid writer (among dozens others) on an activist blog/oped section on a large newspaper's website. He was since removed from the site because of this incident.
>Britain needs no additional sympathy for Germany, they need sympathy for themselves
Or as you would say in German: Selbstmitleid
Or as you would say in German: Selbstmitleid
DAS BOOT!! I remember talking to a colleague about this movie at a former job, and a woman near me piped: "Who would want to watch a movie about a Boot?!" We were speechless and she was totally serious.
The "real" Germany is back? The author must not have been there in a while.
Mr. King sounds like inspiration for some part of George Smiley's character.
It's disturbing how many guardian articles we seem to be getting lately here. I left reddit to escape these types of articles.
Also, it's pointless to learn german - especially if you know english as english is already a germanic language.
What we ( I'm referring to americans ) should learn is LATIN and ANCIENT GREEK as they are truly "foreign" languages that had such a strong influence on english and western civilization.
I studied Latin and Greek independently AFTER I graduated college and it's shocking to me how useful it would have been during my academic career. Not only would it help you understand the english language better, it helps with the understanding of western civilization and of course expands your vocabulary immensely since so many of english words ( especially technical/scientific ) is derived from these two "dead" languages.
Also, it's pointless to learn german - especially if you know english as english is already a germanic language.
What we ( I'm referring to americans ) should learn is LATIN and ANCIENT GREEK as they are truly "foreign" languages that had such a strong influence on english and western civilization.
I studied Latin and Greek independently AFTER I graduated college and it's shocking to me how useful it would have been during my academic career. Not only would it help you understand the english language better, it helps with the understanding of western civilization and of course expands your vocabulary immensely since so many of english words ( especially technical/scientific ) is derived from these two "dead" languages.
By the way, I think it is a language for men. Women have a tendency to sound too harsh with it. In contrast, egyptian/syrian Arabic or Farsi tend to let you fall in love with the women who speak it, yet men speak it to harsh (Arabic) or often strangely funny sounding (Farsi). Few languages are nice to hear whichever gender it speaks (French comes to my mind, of course its all a personal taste).