Founder who lived with bipolar for years started a company to tackle the stigma(forbes.com)
forbes.com
Founder who lived with bipolar for years started a company to tackle the stigma
https://www.forbes.com/sites/meganbruneau/2018/04/14/this-founder-lived-with-a-secret-bipolar-diagnosis-for-years-today-his-company-tackles-the-stigma/#6ca4b20f49f7
72 comments
I have a friend that is recently diagnosed with a bipolar disorder (he just had a hypomanic episode followed by a psychosis). So I think he should be hospitalized to learn more about his bipolar disorder. The problem is that if he wants to be hospitalized, he needs to take medication (which he is hesitant about). The care is really good and includes psychiatrists. I’d love to hear people’s opinion with a bipolar disorder on using medication. When do you recommend it and what do you recommend? What would you recommend my friend to do?
your friend should definitely seek professional help. all i can do is share my own experience:
when this happened to me a family member drove me to the hospital and suggested that i check myself in. i filled out paperwork, answered some questions and signed myself in.
then the "fun" began. i was taken to a room where an armed guard watched the door. I was given a robe and they took my wallet and clothes while I waited in a room with a large glass window. in the room across from me was another guy and he was completely losing his shit -- screaming and pounding on the walls.
That first experience felt what i imagine jail feels like and due to my state of mind i was convinced that my family had tricked me and put me in jail. i was very confused and started having a panic attack. eventually i was lead to a room with several hospital beds where i was given a sedative and went to sleep.
later i was lead upstairs, had my face photographed and printed out for a folder. then i was taken to another room where i had to get naked while two male nurses watched and checked me for birth marks and tattoos.
thankfully i was given a single room for the first few days and could keep to myself because i don't do well with others in situations like these.
everything else was pretty much what i expected. i mainly sat around in the rec room on drugs playing cards and chess with the other patients and nurses. there were several homeless guys in there, some people that seemed to be scamming, terrible food, and a really loud television.
They have group shave / haircut sessions, group therapy (which included dancing and some other stuff).
Honestly it didn't really help me cope with my newly discovered mental illness, it just made me feel like i had hit rock bottom. i was given a pile of drugs and sent on my way. the therapist i was assigned to was extremely amateur and his solution for me was "phone apps". The psychiatrist i was assigned to was very hung up on me not doing street drugs (i don't).
none of these humans attempted to get much story about my current life situation or past. they heard me ramble off a bunch of crazy shit and then decided their pre-scripted solutions were best for me, and when it doesn't work then the blame is thrown back on me. very very frustrating process.
when this happened to me a family member drove me to the hospital and suggested that i check myself in. i filled out paperwork, answered some questions and signed myself in.
then the "fun" began. i was taken to a room where an armed guard watched the door. I was given a robe and they took my wallet and clothes while I waited in a room with a large glass window. in the room across from me was another guy and he was completely losing his shit -- screaming and pounding on the walls.
That first experience felt what i imagine jail feels like and due to my state of mind i was convinced that my family had tricked me and put me in jail. i was very confused and started having a panic attack. eventually i was lead to a room with several hospital beds where i was given a sedative and went to sleep.
later i was lead upstairs, had my face photographed and printed out for a folder. then i was taken to another room where i had to get naked while two male nurses watched and checked me for birth marks and tattoos.
thankfully i was given a single room for the first few days and could keep to myself because i don't do well with others in situations like these.
everything else was pretty much what i expected. i mainly sat around in the rec room on drugs playing cards and chess with the other patients and nurses. there were several homeless guys in there, some people that seemed to be scamming, terrible food, and a really loud television.
They have group shave / haircut sessions, group therapy (which included dancing and some other stuff).
Honestly it didn't really help me cope with my newly discovered mental illness, it just made me feel like i had hit rock bottom. i was given a pile of drugs and sent on my way. the therapist i was assigned to was extremely amateur and his solution for me was "phone apps". The psychiatrist i was assigned to was very hung up on me not doing street drugs (i don't).
none of these humans attempted to get much story about my current life situation or past. they heard me ramble off a bunch of crazy shit and then decided their pre-scripted solutions were best for me, and when it doesn't work then the blame is thrown back on me. very very frustrating process.
Thanks for sharing, appreciated!
My friend is currently in a “normalish” state of mind. I think/hope the care he might receive (academic hospital in the Netherlands) does not resemble your (terrible) experience. I feel a lot of people can’t relate to such states of mind and because of that don’t know how to respond. I’ve done shrooms multiple times and the things people describe during pshychosis/hypomania are more recognizable to me. I think that if you’ve learned how to guide yourself out of a bad trip you can use that knowledge in understanding and helping others.
Are you using any medication right now? What are some things (medication wise) that did or did not help you?
Are you using any medication right now? What are some things (medication wise) that did or did not help you?
I recently read this: http://slatestarcodex.com/2018/03/22/navigating-and-or-avoid...
(Applies to the US.) Sheds a bit of light on the motivations behind your treatment and how to get better treatment.
(Applies to the US.) Sheds a bit of light on the motivations behind your treatment and how to get better treatment.
FYI - I am Daniel's co-founder, if you have any questions on Campfire or whatev's.
Thanks for posting the article. I have been a software engineer for 15 years who has been struggling with issues due to being bipolar (and undiagnosed until a year ago).
I've had a hard time accepting my diagnosis but have taken steps as of late to start moving forward with treatment.
The few people who have found out that I am bipolar (and who don't know me well) claim that I am making up my illness as I seem fine on the surface. I think certain people believe that I am not bipolar because I am a skilled engineer (obviously anyone with the ability to reason knows this makes no sense).
Certain family members have cut me off after the diagnosis as well.
The poor reactions I've had are forcing me to keep silent about my issues, so I'm glad to see other people coming out with theirs.
I've had a hard time accepting my diagnosis but have taken steps as of late to start moving forward with treatment.
The few people who have found out that I am bipolar (and who don't know me well) claim that I am making up my illness as I seem fine on the surface. I think certain people believe that I am not bipolar because I am a skilled engineer (obviously anyone with the ability to reason knows this makes no sense).
Certain family members have cut me off after the diagnosis as well.
The poor reactions I've had are forcing me to keep silent about my issues, so I'm glad to see other people coming out with theirs.
In the same way that ADHD is very much agreed to be over diagnosed, do you believe bipolar might also be over diagnosed? I have seen family members conditions worsen after treatment(which may just be a coincidence), or maybe the inadequacy and/or causation of treatment.
Probably like ADHD, lots of docs would suggest that bipolar is both over- and under-diagnosed. With the rise of the atypical antipsychotics, it became sort of a 'flavor of the month' diagnosis for folks with anxious depression, or treatment-resistant depression, or irritable depression, or depression with substance use disorders. On the other hand - it's still underdiagnosed as well, with one (older) survey suggesting ~1/3 of folks waited a decade or more for a correct diagnosis [0], and no reason to believe this has improved all that much.
[0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12633125
[0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12633125
I think "borderline" is what is now the sweeping diagnosis for everything that can't be boxed properly to any of the available shelves, and that one might be overused more. When you know some true BPDs in real-life, it's not fun at all - cut wrists, irreversible body modifications, constant threats of suicide, used as a back-up when important plans fail, use of other people for validation, inability to hold consistent mental state etc. Bipolar comparing to that seems pretty benign even if it's terrible enough.
BPD is a really specific personality disorder with fairly clear characteristics. While personality orders in general are somewhat controversial, and notoriously difficult to treat, I’d be interested in seeing evidence of overdiagnosis.
Depression on its own can be crippling and lethal, so complicating it with an addictive, potentially reckless or even psychotic second state is a nightmare. Mania is often misunderstood as just elevated mood and high energy, but the reality is more often of the “running up crushing debt, promiscuous and dangerous sexual activity” flavor than “spent all week coding a masterpiece.”
In extremes mania leads to a psychotic break to the point of being difficult to distinguish (even in a clinical setting) from schizophrenia. I knew a lovely guy who worked on motorcycles for Harley, and he was always troubled, classically bipolar, but refused to get help because he loved the highs. Then one day I got a call from his wife that he had spent three days “talking to Jesus and the devil” and pleading the case for his soul. He had to be committed for observation, which turned into weeks and then months of inpatient care. Bipolar disorder really is no joke, and the tendency for people with the disorder to struggle with substance abuse doesn’t help. “Dual diagnosis” is a phrase that portends a world of trouble, especially if you’re not wealthy enough to avoid various aspects of the system.
The last point is that BPD typically improves with age, while bipolar disorder typically becomes worse.
Depression on its own can be crippling and lethal, so complicating it with an addictive, potentially reckless or even psychotic second state is a nightmare. Mania is often misunderstood as just elevated mood and high energy, but the reality is more often of the “running up crushing debt, promiscuous and dangerous sexual activity” flavor than “spent all week coding a masterpiece.”
In extremes mania leads to a psychotic break to the point of being difficult to distinguish (even in a clinical setting) from schizophrenia. I knew a lovely guy who worked on motorcycles for Harley, and he was always troubled, classically bipolar, but refused to get help because he loved the highs. Then one day I got a call from his wife that he had spent three days “talking to Jesus and the devil” and pleading the case for his soul. He had to be committed for observation, which turned into weeks and then months of inpatient care. Bipolar disorder really is no joke, and the tendency for people with the disorder to struggle with substance abuse doesn’t help. “Dual diagnosis” is a phrase that portends a world of trouble, especially if you’re not wealthy enough to avoid various aspects of the system.
The last point is that BPD typically improves with age, while bipolar disorder typically becomes worse.
> In extremes mania leads to a psychotic break to the point of being difficult to distinguish (even in a clinical setting) from schizophrenia.
If you read some of my other posts on this page this is exactly my frustration with the current diagnosis. People who should be diagnosed with borderline Schizophrenia(hallucinations and/or voices) are being bundled with those that simply are getting angry.
If you read some of my other posts on this page this is exactly my frustration with the current diagnosis. People who should be diagnosed with borderline Schizophrenia(hallucinations and/or voices) are being bundled with those that simply are getting angry.
I agree with everything you said except honestly believe the medications are what are causing the issues in many cases. My concern is that kids are being diagnosed with a chronic condition, and then being treated like ADHD. My favorite fun fact is that people treated with placebo in a NIMH study were less likely to be rehospitalized then those treated with actual medication[1]. Many of the most popular medications(Zyprexa & Sequel) cause insomnia and in extreme situations psychosis. The NIMH completely threw out the study deciding that recommending placebo was completely illogical.
[1]: http://psychrights.org/research/digest/chronicity/Neurolepti...
[1]: http://psychrights.org/research/digest/chronicity/Neurolepti...
I think Daniel would know more about this - I'll see if he has a comment.
Agreed to be over-diagnosed by who? (genuinely curious)
Many top psychologists have come out suggested ADHD is overdiagnosised. The are numerous articles about the explosion of diagnosis[1].
[1]: http://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/saving-normal/201605/...
[1]: http://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/saving-normal/201605/...
According to the experts at Stanford at least 25% of people diagnosed with ADHD/ADD are actually misdiagnosed Narcoleptics. Anyone diagnosed with ADHD/ADD could easily rule this out with a simple sleep study. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sleep-newzzz/201305/...
But that's because psychology is generally anti-diagnosis, and because psychology rejects diagnosis.
In my case, I feel as though my condition was under-diagnosed until I couldn't ignore it anymore. In retrospect I had episodes my entire adult life, but I was able to get through them and never really saw them as abnormal. Now I am to recognize them as part of the illness.
Hi,
I have a few questions I would like to ask off-thread. My email listed.
I will send you an email
> This Founder Lived with Bipolar for Years. Today His Company Tackles the Stigma
Click-bait title
Click-bait title
We've reworded it.
My belief is that everyone has minor bouts of mania and depression, and bipolar people just experience it more extreme. My psychiatrists have flirted with a bipolar diagnosis but ultimately they think it’s standard anxiety / depression.
Every few months I go through a week where I barely sleep, my mind is racing, work nonstop, empathy decreases, basically feel on top of the world. And similar every few months I will have a week where I can barely get out of bed, no motivation, apathetic, can barely focus.
I have mechanisms learned to deal with both situations and it has very little effect on my life. I can recognize it and so does my wife. So does this mean I’m bipolar? “Minorly bipolar?”
Psychiatrist diagnoses do not have true tests. They get made based on observations and written tests. It’s useful to give things names, but mental health in general is very weird and unpredictable. Drugs work but doctors have to theorize as to why they work.
I know this is unrelated to the company in the article, but maybe this post is useful to the discussion / someone experiencing similar things.
Every few months I go through a week where I barely sleep, my mind is racing, work nonstop, empathy decreases, basically feel on top of the world. And similar every few months I will have a week where I can barely get out of bed, no motivation, apathetic, can barely focus.
I have mechanisms learned to deal with both situations and it has very little effect on my life. I can recognize it and so does my wife. So does this mean I’m bipolar? “Minorly bipolar?”
Psychiatrist diagnoses do not have true tests. They get made based on observations and written tests. It’s useful to give things names, but mental health in general is very weird and unpredictable. Drugs work but doctors have to theorize as to why they work.
I know this is unrelated to the company in the article, but maybe this post is useful to the discussion / someone experiencing similar things.
> My belief is that everyone has minor bouts of mania and depression, and bipolar people just experience it more extreme
if you read about the symptoms of bipolar disorder you will see that it is a bit more complex than this.
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/bipolar-disorder/index...
Take a look at the list of manic / depressive episode symptoms. Every single one of those applies to me in a very extreme way - i have been hospitalized once and believe i am going to be again soon as i feel very similar currently as i did in the past.
Edit:
oh also forgot to mention - i appear to be the kind of bipolar which comes with a touch of psychosis... its definitely more complex than the minor ups and downs of a normal person.
second edit: yes you sound bipolar and should probably get it under control because its pretty much wrecking my life now and had i not ignored the signs / knew what to look for earlier in life i would be in better shape right now.
if you read about the symptoms of bipolar disorder you will see that it is a bit more complex than this.
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/bipolar-disorder/index...
Take a look at the list of manic / depressive episode symptoms. Every single one of those applies to me in a very extreme way - i have been hospitalized once and believe i am going to be again soon as i feel very similar currently as i did in the past.
Edit:
oh also forgot to mention - i appear to be the kind of bipolar which comes with a touch of psychosis... its definitely more complex than the minor ups and downs of a normal person.
second edit: yes you sound bipolar and should probably get it under control because its pretty much wrecking my life now and had i not ignored the signs / knew what to look for earlier in life i would be in better shape right now.
Sleep. Sleep sleep sleep sleep sleep is the key. I cannot stress that enough. Sleep and schedule. Wake up at the same time every day, no. matter. what. Don't stay out late just cause it's the weekend, don't go out partying just cause your friends are. Don't pull an all-nighter just to get an A on a test or meet a deadline. Once your sleep gets out of whack, a manic bout is not far behind, and that's 6+ months of your life turned into chaos. If you find yourself staying up all night, unable to sleep, that should be a huge warning sign.
I speak from experience. Lots of it.
I speak from experience. Lots of it.
Amen, and well said. I'm a psychiatrist and I worry the most about sleep, full stop. In a disease (or set of diseases, or whatever) that can make people feel so out of control, sleep is one of the best ways to take back control.
yes! i agree. i have lots of sleep issues. now i go to sleep early in the evening (nearly right after the sun goes down) and i wake up between 3 and 5am.
my biggest problem right now is work: i have had issues holding a job throughout my life. there was a 6 year stint that i was able to keep 2 jobs, but beyond that i usually quit due to what amounts to nothing in the end. have been trying to get a fully remote position as seclusion seems to help.
my biggest problem right now is work: i have had issues holding a job throughout my life. there was a 6 year stint that i was able to keep 2 jobs, but beyond that i usually quit due to what amounts to nothing in the end. have been trying to get a fully remote position as seclusion seems to help.
Radiolab had a very compelling depiction of the manic phase of bipolar disorder:
https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/audio.wnyc.org/radi... (starting at 3 minutes 30 seconds)
https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/audio.wnyc.org/radi... (starting at 3 minutes 30 seconds)
The defining factor between Bipolar I and Bipolar II is that you have been essentially never been hospitalized(and never had a completely documented manic episode). Ignoring psychosis the defining characteristic of a mental illness is often abnormal behavior which is slightly subjective. It is essentially the scale of the issue(mania typically) when it becomes a mental illness.
I'm not sure what you're saying. i was hospitalized last year during the election while thinking that the gov. was after me, reporting a coworker as a terrorist (def not a terrorist) etc. i could go on.
actually i will go on:
reported the nicest guy to HR (he's fine) was on the verge of suicide, then thought "people" were after me and just completely flipped shit. family member kindly allowed me to stay at their home and then took me to the hospital the following day where i checked myself in.
actually i will go on:
reported the nicest guy to HR (he's fine) was on the verge of suicide, then thought "people" were after me and just completely flipped shit. family member kindly allowed me to stay at their home and then took me to the hospital the following day where i checked myself in.
Psychosis is not required to have a diagnosis of bipolar and frankly I do not personally believe that it should be included in bipolar(it should be a separate diagnosis). IMO and many other psychologists opinions is that bipolar by the general public is often viewed as a mood disorder(not the psychosis part).
The genetics would argue otherwise. Here's an interesting recent illustration: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29167880
No. That article proves my point exactly. Bipolar by definition currently may or may not include psychosis(there is no way for the medical provider to distinguish between the 2.) If you did not include psychosis(as the DSM does now), most people with bipolar diagnosis would actually have Schizophrenia because that is the next closest mental illness(which is why there are genetic similarities.) Bundling an angry disorder with hallucinations should not be done and was an afterthought. Actually psychologists agree with me. "psychotic features – is included almost as an afterthought. It is not one of the defining features of a manic episode. Rather, it is something that may be present.[1]"
[1]: http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2009/09/06/bipolar-dis...
[1]: http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2009/09/06/bipolar-dis...
regardless, i had some sort of psychotic attack which lasted for several days along with a list of other symptoms which are fully documented, observed and on record. i have hardly been able to hold a job since that event and am stumbling through life.
Let me suggest you start a food diary as a useful tool. I have been successful in mitigating certain somatopsychic symptoms largely using diet.
I probably should. just started looking through the list again:
many people have bipolar disorder along with another illness such as:
anxiety disorder substance abuse eating disorder delusions runs in family Feel very “up,” “high,” or elated Have a lot of energy Have increased activity levels Feel “jumpy” or “wired” Have trouble sleeping Become more active than usual Talk really fast about a lot of different things Be agitated irritable or “touchy” Feel like their thoughts are going very fast Think they can do a lot of things at once Do risky things like spend a lot of money or have reckless sex Feel very sad, down, empty, or hopeless Have very little energy Have decreased activity levels Have trouble sleeping, they may sleep too little or too much Feel like they can’t enjoy anything Feel worried and empty Have trouble concentrating Forget things a lot Eat too much or too little Feel tired or “slowed down” Think about death or suicide
literally everything... and i've been denying it until like 2 days ago and am heading to the dr on monday after being talked out of killing myself for the 5th time by my wife ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
many people have bipolar disorder along with another illness such as:
anxiety disorder substance abuse eating disorder delusions runs in family Feel very “up,” “high,” or elated Have a lot of energy Have increased activity levels Feel “jumpy” or “wired” Have trouble sleeping Become more active than usual Talk really fast about a lot of different things Be agitated irritable or “touchy” Feel like their thoughts are going very fast Think they can do a lot of things at once Do risky things like spend a lot of money or have reckless sex Feel very sad, down, empty, or hopeless Have very little energy Have decreased activity levels Have trouble sleeping, they may sleep too little or too much Feel like they can’t enjoy anything Feel worried and empty Have trouble concentrating Forget things a lot Eat too much or too little Feel tired or “slowed down” Think about death or suicide
literally everything... and i've been denying it until like 2 days ago and am heading to the dr on monday after being talked out of killing myself for the 5th time by my wife ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm not going to post a link to it on HN, but I have a discontinued food blog with some information potentially relevant to you.
The tldr: I am often suddenly suicidal. I have essentially a salt wasting condition. There is a salt and lithium connection and I have found it really helpful at times to eat a meat and potatoes meal to mediate the salt-lithium connection when I am under stress and expecting to soon fall off the deep end suddenly.
The tldr: I am often suddenly suicidal. I have essentially a salt wasting condition. There is a salt and lithium connection and I have found it really helpful at times to eat a meat and potatoes meal to mediate the salt-lithium connection when I am under stress and expecting to soon fall off the deep end suddenly.
i am supposed to be taking lithium but have refused medication for a few reasons.
mainly everything i have been prescribed has screwed me up further -- lithium specifically felt absolutely amazing to be on, i felt "content" and started feeling more balanced and creative etc... however i was sleeping until noon and felt a weird fog and felt like i couldn't program well (which is pretty much the only thing i do).
edit: the above fogginess may have been from the seroquel actually i can't remember.
I tried other medications but has other weird effects (i'm not good with drugs).
secondly, the suicidal thoughts weren't fading and I was very focused on the drugs as a means to my end (they were hidden from me by my wife because of this and she would give me my dosage when it was time).
i have to use a number of techniques to keep me grounded and most of the time I'm fine (i meditate, read, listen to specific types of music, exercise, etc) however there are triggers in my life which i have no control over and i lose control (ex wife making my life a nightmare via legal system, lack of funds etc).
to be honest i'm sort of fucked. i'm an aging dev with mental health issues, little to no support from family, can't really do meds because it fucks up my ability to work. sucks
mainly everything i have been prescribed has screwed me up further -- lithium specifically felt absolutely amazing to be on, i felt "content" and started feeling more balanced and creative etc... however i was sleeping until noon and felt a weird fog and felt like i couldn't program well (which is pretty much the only thing i do).
edit: the above fogginess may have been from the seroquel actually i can't remember.
I tried other medications but has other weird effects (i'm not good with drugs).
secondly, the suicidal thoughts weren't fading and I was very focused on the drugs as a means to my end (they were hidden from me by my wife because of this and she would give me my dosage when it was time).
i have to use a number of techniques to keep me grounded and most of the time I'm fine (i meditate, read, listen to specific types of music, exercise, etc) however there are triggers in my life which i have no control over and i lose control (ex wife making my life a nightmare via legal system, lack of funds etc).
to be honest i'm sort of fucked. i'm an aging dev with mental health issues, little to no support from family, can't really do meds because it fucks up my ability to work. sucks
FWIW, I went 30 years without being diagnosed as or medicated for Bipolar 2. Life was hell, physically tortuous even, and socially and financially devastating. Wrecked my life good. I was around 43, when I found out.
I completely understand getting set off. I don't know how many thousands of hours I've lost to excessive anger and irritation. The bitch of it is that there's usually a good reason to be angry, just not _that_ angry.
With the proper meds, life isn't perfect, but I have the kind of peace of which I dreamt for decades...and without being zombified. I can actually hold down a job.
Friends, roommates, and noise generated by other people, still a big no. I live alone up in the hills and wfh. I like it that way.
As for meds, should you try any again,
Forget lithium. The best mood stabilizer I know is Lamotragine. If you are in the US, fill your prescription through canadadrugs.com. It's too expensive in the US.
As for anti-depressants, the Serotonin-based drugs never worked for me, but I take Viibryd now, which isn't Serotonin-based.
As for ensuring that you sleep (I was an insomniac for much of 20 years), Trazadone is an old, cheap, and non-addictive sleeping pill. It has nothing to do with ephedrine or melatonin, and won't mess you up at all.
I completely understand getting set off. I don't know how many thousands of hours I've lost to excessive anger and irritation. The bitch of it is that there's usually a good reason to be angry, just not _that_ angry.
With the proper meds, life isn't perfect, but I have the kind of peace of which I dreamt for decades...and without being zombified. I can actually hold down a job.
Friends, roommates, and noise generated by other people, still a big no. I live alone up in the hills and wfh. I like it that way.
As for meds, should you try any again,
Forget lithium. The best mood stabilizer I know is Lamotragine. If you are in the US, fill your prescription through canadadrugs.com. It's too expensive in the US.
As for anti-depressants, the Serotonin-based drugs never worked for me, but I take Viibryd now, which isn't Serotonin-based.
As for ensuring that you sleep (I was an insomniac for much of 20 years), Trazadone is an old, cheap, and non-addictive sleeping pill. It has nothing to do with ephedrine or melatonin, and won't mess you up at all.
> around 43
late 30s here.
> there's usually a good reason to be angry, just not _that_ angry
i experience extreme anxiety more than rage
> Friends, roommates, and noise generated by other people
i am similar. thankfully my wife is a very quiet person.
> Viibryd
was on it for over a year -- didn't end well (weaned myself off after running out of insurance)
late 30s here.
> there's usually a good reason to be angry, just not _that_ angry
i experience extreme anxiety more than rage
> Friends, roommates, and noise generated by other people
i am similar. thankfully my wife is a very quiet person.
> Viibryd
was on it for over a year -- didn't end well (weaned myself off after running out of insurance)
I feel for you. I understand your concerns about the medications. Some of the treatments I have taken have basically prevented me from functioning normally. It is hard at times, because I haven't been able to find a solution. I think best hope is an improved ability to cope with the symptoms as they become more recognizable
yeah i'm not really sure what the solution with this one is. without insurance or support i'm basically out of options. I was going to live in my car last year but a family member let me stay at their home for 3 months (happened to get a job just as they were on the verge of kicking me out). wife is looking for work but won't make enough to cover rent let alone everything else. we have a couple more months to figure it out so i'm sure something will pan out.
I'm talking about a much gentler approach than taking drugs.
Best.
Best.
I used to experience this as well, and I always considered myself cyclothymic[0] (not diagnosed).
I feel much more even nowadays and I attribute it to a cumulative effect from plant medicine ceremonies over the last 3 years (five combination ayahuasca/san pedro, one 5-MeO-DMT), discovering an anchoring purpose for my life, and reducing my marijuana consumption (haven't smoked/edibled since New Years, longest in ~17 years).
I feel a general resistance to dwelling on depressiveness personally, or any groups that center around dwelling on any negative perception of self. In my experience I've found that it becomes self-reinforcing... if you're lonely and you feel less lonely thanks to your kinship within a group based on shared depression, then your desire to be less depressed becomes subversive to your membership of an in-group. Depression can become an immutable identity trait and not a state of mind that can be overcome with the right treatment.
This part of the interview resonated with me:
> Pourasghar: For one, if you’ve experienced extreme hopelessness at some point and came out of it stronger, I think it prepares you for the rest of your life in a positive way. It gives you a deep-rooted confidence. You learn that whatever comes your way you can always prevail, and I think that leads to allowing for more risk in your decisions. It helps me put any fears into perspective.
> Also, I think my experiences have opened me up to more vulnerability. Unfortunately, we are usually taught that vulnerability means weakness, especially as men. From my experience, I’ve found that opening up to people builds trust. When we bring our whole self to the people around us, we create stronger, more authentic relationships. In general, I’ve learned that it’s possible to turn pain into something positive.
I don't think I would ever use such a service myself though.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclothymia
I feel much more even nowadays and I attribute it to a cumulative effect from plant medicine ceremonies over the last 3 years (five combination ayahuasca/san pedro, one 5-MeO-DMT), discovering an anchoring purpose for my life, and reducing my marijuana consumption (haven't smoked/edibled since New Years, longest in ~17 years).
I feel a general resistance to dwelling on depressiveness personally, or any groups that center around dwelling on any negative perception of self. In my experience I've found that it becomes self-reinforcing... if you're lonely and you feel less lonely thanks to your kinship within a group based on shared depression, then your desire to be less depressed becomes subversive to your membership of an in-group. Depression can become an immutable identity trait and not a state of mind that can be overcome with the right treatment.
This part of the interview resonated with me:
> Pourasghar: For one, if you’ve experienced extreme hopelessness at some point and came out of it stronger, I think it prepares you for the rest of your life in a positive way. It gives you a deep-rooted confidence. You learn that whatever comes your way you can always prevail, and I think that leads to allowing for more risk in your decisions. It helps me put any fears into perspective.
> Also, I think my experiences have opened me up to more vulnerability. Unfortunately, we are usually taught that vulnerability means weakness, especially as men. From my experience, I’ve found that opening up to people builds trust. When we bring our whole self to the people around us, we create stronger, more authentic relationships. In general, I’ve learned that it’s possible to turn pain into something positive.
I don't think I would ever use such a service myself though.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclothymia
I am not a psychiatrist, but it does sound like you have bipolar symptoms, especially if you have the hypo-maniac episodes.
Bipolar is sometimes misdiagnosed as major depressive disorder, because the mania doesn't seem like a problem. Who doesn't want to feel more productive and on top of the world? I know I've failed to recognize a manic episode, and wow did I end up paying the price when the pendulum swung the other way.
Bipolar is sometimes misdiagnosed as major depressive disorder, because the mania doesn't seem like a problem. Who doesn't want to feel more productive and on top of the world? I know I've failed to recognize a manic episode, and wow did I end up paying the price when the pendulum swung the other way.
> because the mania doesn't seem like a problem.
To be clear, the feeling of being on top of the world and superhuman is hypomania, and not full blown mania (hypo indicating "less than" mania), which from my experience, is far and away worse than the depressive episodes. Don't get me wrong, depression is bad and you can literally end up dead from it. Not going to minimize that.
But the mania I've experienced? Watch out. Buying things you don't need, quitting jobs you need desperately, ending relationships on a whim, engaging in random sex, random drug use, not sleeping ever.
And if that weren't enough then there's the paranoia and delusions. The government is out to get me kind of stuff. The "I'm the second coming of God" kind of delusions. The CIA installed microchips in my cats and they're using them to spy on me kind of paranoia. That plus the sensitivity to light and sounds. I had to take the batteries out of my smoke detectors because the tiny LED felt like a spot light at night, watching me like the Eye of Sauron.
And if I haven't burned every bridge I've ever made, earned the scorn of everyone whose ever loved me, and spent every cent I've ever earned, I can consider myself lucky for not ending up in jail or an institution. The hospital is a whole different level of fun when you're susceptible to the idea that there's a conspiracy against you.
So yeah, while depression is bad and hypo-mania is fun sometimes, full blown mania isn't something I would wish on my worst enemy. It's the devil incarnate as far as I'm concerned.
To be clear, the feeling of being on top of the world and superhuman is hypomania, and not full blown mania (hypo indicating "less than" mania), which from my experience, is far and away worse than the depressive episodes. Don't get me wrong, depression is bad and you can literally end up dead from it. Not going to minimize that.
But the mania I've experienced? Watch out. Buying things you don't need, quitting jobs you need desperately, ending relationships on a whim, engaging in random sex, random drug use, not sleeping ever.
And if that weren't enough then there's the paranoia and delusions. The government is out to get me kind of stuff. The "I'm the second coming of God" kind of delusions. The CIA installed microchips in my cats and they're using them to spy on me kind of paranoia. That plus the sensitivity to light and sounds. I had to take the batteries out of my smoke detectors because the tiny LED felt like a spot light at night, watching me like the Eye of Sauron.
And if I haven't burned every bridge I've ever made, earned the scorn of everyone whose ever loved me, and spent every cent I've ever earned, I can consider myself lucky for not ending up in jail or an institution. The hospital is a whole different level of fun when you're susceptible to the idea that there's a conspiracy against you.
So yeah, while depression is bad and hypo-mania is fun sometimes, full blown mania isn't something I would wish on my worst enemy. It's the devil incarnate as far as I'm concerned.
Point taken regarding the difference between hypomania and mania symptoms. But not everyone, including those with BP2, experience the extremes of mania.
From my own experience I failed to recognize a hypomanic episode until it was far too late because I felt great and didn't realize something was wrong.
It ended with one of the most severe manic/mixed episodes I've ever experienced. It was one of those experiences you hear can happen to BP patients, but you don't believe can happen to you until it does.
When I finally snapped out of it, I was pretty damn shaken up about what had happened, and probably for the first time I came to terms with how dangerous this disorder can be.
So I agree, I wouldn't wish that experience on anyone
From my own experience I failed to recognize a hypomanic episode until it was far too late because I felt great and didn't realize something was wrong.
It ended with one of the most severe manic/mixed episodes I've ever experienced. It was one of those experiences you hear can happen to BP patients, but you don't believe can happen to you until it does.
When I finally snapped out of it, I was pretty damn shaken up about what had happened, and probably for the first time I came to terms with how dangerous this disorder can be.
So I agree, I wouldn't wish that experience on anyone
> To be clear, the feeling of being on top of the world and superhuman is hypomania, and not full blown mania (hypo indicating "less than" mania)
Which, unrelatedly, always confused me. "Hypo" in medicine usually means "a dangerous lack of something"--hypoxia, hypothyroid--not "too much of something, but not way too much." The first time I heard "hypomania," I assumed it meant depression! It seems like "semi-manic" or something along those lines would have been clearer.
Which, unrelatedly, always confused me. "Hypo" in medicine usually means "a dangerous lack of something"--hypoxia, hypothyroid--not "too much of something, but not way too much." The first time I heard "hypomania," I assumed it meant depression! It seems like "semi-manic" or something along those lines would have been clearer.
Hypo just means low. Hypoglycemia is low blood sugar. Hyperglycemia is high blood sugar aka diabetes. Hypomania would be low mania. It's kind of like saying a little bit of mania.
This is accurate regarding the worst case. I’ve also had full psychotic manic episodes I would not trade for the world, although they were challenging.
Thank you for this comment. It's enlightening.
> My psychiatrists have flirted with a bipolar diagnosis but ultimately they think it’s standard anxiety / depression.
I hear that very often, especially from the people diagnosed around 30-15 years ago. I can't get the feeling that this is just an easy excuse to cover inability to find a real cause. I have no study to back it up, just my experience, but I've yet to see a person who has an anxiety just like that. It is an effect, not a cause. You can't treat an effect an just happily ignore the real reason. I am biased by the people I around me, sure, but I would say, very often the cause is being different (even if only slightly) and difficulties to find yourself in the society.
(edit typo)
I hear that very often, especially from the people diagnosed around 30-15 years ago. I can't get the feeling that this is just an easy excuse to cover inability to find a real cause. I have no study to back it up, just my experience, but I've yet to see a person who has an anxiety just like that. It is an effect, not a cause. You can't treat an effect an just happily ignore the real reason. I am biased by the people I around me, sure, but I would say, very often the cause is being different (even if only slightly) and difficulties to find yourself in the society.
(edit typo)
Is it ok if you could detail your "mechanisms" that you use?
Just trying to grok against my own which has worked for me for the past decade or so but am struggling with its effectiveness recently.
Just trying to grok against my own which has worked for me for the past decade or so but am struggling with its effectiveness recently.
As I know it goes away in a week or so, I don't get worried or overthink it, as I know it will pass. During mania I don't buy expensive things, start big projects, make life decisions, or do anything that may be tainted by my over optimism.
When I'm feeling low, just try to exercise, eat healthy, think positive, follow all my routines.
Basically I try to keep a rational mindset that I keep separate from my current state, and try to analyze the situation as a neutral third party would. This is a useful technique regardless but especially effective when I feel off.
When I'm feeling low, just try to exercise, eat healthy, think positive, follow all my routines.
Basically I try to keep a rational mindset that I keep separate from my current state, and try to analyze the situation as a neutral third party would. This is a useful technique regardless but especially effective when I feel off.
Thanks for your response! It sounds somewhat similar to the mechanism I use albeit mine has a bit of a weird twist to it .
It sounds strange but my goto method is visualising my negative sate in my head as an "alter ego" of me but more messed up (think hobo + zombie-ish) and trying to either talk rationally to this person. Sometimes I get a good discussion out of it or sometimes it results in a fist fight. Either way, the outcome for me is I get closure out of it.
I did say it was strange. :)
It sounds strange but my goto method is visualising my negative sate in my head as an "alter ego" of me but more messed up (think hobo + zombie-ish) and trying to either talk rationally to this person. Sometimes I get a good discussion out of it or sometimes it results in a fist fight. Either way, the outcome for me is I get closure out of it.
I did say it was strange. :)
I'll just say it, from someone who is similarly in your boat:
if you're even questioning it, there's probably something there
think about someone who is questioning their sexuality. there has to be some reason they're doing it.
i agree that there are probably varying degrees, like everything, but comeon...you're obviously very aware of the stigma. bipolar people who are highly functioning exist, and your doctors' metric is probably quality of life. if you can hold it together, it's not really life-affecting. it's just the way you are.
you could probably say you are bipolar-ish but have developed systems on your own for dealing with it.
if you're even questioning it, there's probably something there
think about someone who is questioning their sexuality. there has to be some reason they're doing it.
i agree that there are probably varying degrees, like everything, but comeon...you're obviously very aware of the stigma. bipolar people who are highly functioning exist, and your doctors' metric is probably quality of life. if you can hold it together, it's not really life-affecting. it's just the way you are.
you could probably say you are bipolar-ish but have developed systems on your own for dealing with it.
> My belief is that everyone has minor bouts of mania and depression
I've experienced situational depression, but never mania. Belief disproven. ;-)
I've experienced situational depression, but never mania. Belief disproven. ;-)
Good. The stigma around bipolar is absolute hell for those of us who have it. Having rational and largely unemotional conversations about it with friends, family and co-workers is a near constant struggle, when even possible. Just mentioning it is enough to get responses like, "Yeah, but everyone has a mental health disorder!" to change the subject.
Hopefully the social stigma around even discussing mental health will go away in my lifetime, but I'm not holding my breath.
Hopefully the social stigma around even discussing mental health will go away in my lifetime, but I'm not holding my breath.
>> Having rational and largely unemotional conversations about it with friends, family and co-workers is a near constant struggle, when even possible. Just mentioning it is enough to get responses like, "Yeah, but everyone has a mental health disorder!" to change the subject.
I'm wondering what the stigma is. From what you said people don't make a big deal of it and may even be dismissive. Or are you saying they refuse to acknowledge it as a problem and change the subject? While not helpful, it's not making fun of you either. I know people who are bipolar and the only people I've seen who think much negative about that are the people who have it. Perhaps my observations are missing something major? Are people actually hard on those with bipolar? How does the stigma manifest?
I feel like I'm really ignorant about something here.
I'm wondering what the stigma is. From what you said people don't make a big deal of it and may even be dismissive. Or are you saying they refuse to acknowledge it as a problem and change the subject? While not helpful, it's not making fun of you either. I know people who are bipolar and the only people I've seen who think much negative about that are the people who have it. Perhaps my observations are missing something major? Are people actually hard on those with bipolar? How does the stigma manifest?
I feel like I'm really ignorant about something here.
[deleted]
>I'm wondering what the stigma is.
I think a major part of the stigma is people thinking that borderline personality disorder and bipolar are the same thing, primarily because they have the same acronym. As a result, people wrongly associate Cluster B symptoms/behavior with bipolar.
I think a major part of the stigma is people thinking that borderline personality disorder and bipolar are the same thing, primarily because they have the same acronym. As a result, people wrongly associate Cluster B symptoms/behavior with bipolar.
If mental illnesses are underdiagnosed, then it might be that the majority of the population could have some kind of disorder of varying scales on any spectrum.
With how many different things can go wrong with our complex neurologies combined with tens of milennia of racial inbreeding it'd be surprising for anyone to have completely spotless mental health, just as few men and women are blessed with perfect bodily health free of rashes and allergies and proportional assymetries.
Personally, I have a variety of brain related disorders which I must contend with on a daily basis but also make me good at spotting others with my experience across anbroad range of symtpoms. So when someone says to me "everyone has a mental health disorder" I just assume that they have a mental disorder and agree with them.
With how many different things can go wrong with our complex neurologies combined with tens of milennia of racial inbreeding it'd be surprising for anyone to have completely spotless mental health, just as few men and women are blessed with perfect bodily health free of rashes and allergies and proportional assymetries.
Personally, I have a variety of brain related disorders which I must contend with on a daily basis but also make me good at spotting others with my experience across anbroad range of symtpoms. So when someone says to me "everyone has a mental health disorder" I just assume that they have a mental disorder and agree with them.
>> So when someone says to me "everyone has a mental health disorder" I just assume that they have a mental disorder and agree with them.
I totally agree with this. If there's no one around you might even say "yeah, wanna share, what's yours?"
"There are two kinds of people in the world: Those who have faced their issues and are a work in progress, and those who have not." Yeah yeah, projection, black and white, all-or-nothing, splitting, etc... It's still a fun thing to say.
I totally agree with this. If there's no one around you might even say "yeah, wanna share, what's yours?"
"There are two kinds of people in the world: Those who have faced their issues and are a work in progress, and those who have not." Yeah yeah, projection, black and white, all-or-nothing, splitting, etc... It's still a fun thing to say.
I am not holding my breather either, but there are some pretty big companies getting behind reducing the stigma.
[deleted]
I am glad to see this topic being approached openly on HN. I was diagnosed a few years ago after a series of life changing episodes which eventually lead to my hospitalization.
This has significantly effected my life. There are no easy solutions, and like many people I've found the treatment at times to be as bad as the symptoms.
I think the idea of campfire is a good one, and will probably give it a try. In the meantime, I'm always open for to discuss the topic if anyone wants to contact me directly.
This has significantly effected my life. There are no easy solutions, and like many people I've found the treatment at times to be as bad as the symptoms.
I think the idea of campfire is a good one, and will probably give it a try. In the meantime, I'm always open for to discuss the topic if anyone wants to contact me directly.
Have you tried weed or CBD supplements? It helped with my bipolar and levelling my emotions to deal with a job and daily life.
Up until reading the comments here, I didn't realize that when I feel "normal"/not depressed, it might actually be a mania swing. I feel great, like happy for no reason, I work extended hours without noticing (14-16 hour days). I'm crazy hyper, and during these times are when I express my opinions (usually at work) and piss a lot of people off. These phases are also usually when I actually go out to meet people and/or hookup with women. When I feel like this is usually when I quit a job without considering I have no savings, or how hard it might be to get a new job quick. I day dream about a life outside of software, living in the wild and by myself. I never put 2 and 2 together, but following these super productive weeks is usually a hard swing into depression - the kind where I can barely work at all, and really struggle to get out of bed, take care of my kids, eat, or shower. The downswing into depression usually lasts much longer than the upswing where I feel wonderful, or at least it feels that way. And the entire time I'm wishing I could feel good again like I did the week before when I had no problems working or taking care of myself.
Someone here mentioned a daily mood diary - that's a brilliant idea! I'm going to start tracking my moods and see if I can graph a pattern out of them, or at least be able to tell when swings are coming so I can be prepared for them. I have really bad anxiety, and the constant back and forth really takes its toll on me, which deepens my depression to the point where I've thought about ending it all, but haven't because I have children that need me - but every now and then for 1/4 of a second a quick fantasy of dying will fly through my mind when I'm at a location where it's actually possible to do so - for example hiking to the top of a mountain not but a few weeks ago, taking in the view, and for a brief moment had the urge to just jump off the side onto the rocks below. It scared the shit out of me!