A sad update about a scissors maker that went viral(kottke.org)
kottke.org
A sad update about a scissors maker that went viral
https://kottke.org/18/06/a-sad-update-about-a-scissors-maker-that-went-viral
129 comments
Including "society". For every tragic company failure or suicide or whatever, there are always stories like this. "She seemed fine." "We never knew they were in trouble". "He's not the kind of person. This is no less true in the internet of 2018 than it was in the small towns of the 1930's.
We don't get to see half of what we think we should be able to see of people's lives. Even people we "know".
We don't get to see half of what we think we should be able to see of people's lives. Even people we "know".
> We don't get to see half of what we think we should be able to see of people's lives. Even people we "know".
One of the few times in someone's life that you get to glimpse many of their facets all in one place is their funeral. Weddings are skipped if someone doesn't want to go to the expense of buying a gift and attending. Same for many other life events.
Unless someone makes a conscious effort to bring all their circles of friends together in a series of parties and events, many times these circles stay separate and sometimes these groups are completely unaware of each other. My epiphany that social "platforms" were crap at their claimed mission was w-a-a-a-y back when I realized they were no better at getting my different circles of friends together with me than if I didn't have the platforms in my life and didn't lift a finger to try to consciously bring them together.
These days, I tell people from all my friend groups to drop by an all-day party I hold, they'll meet interesting people, and hang out. The social platform works great for coordinating in my use case, but apparently not for really fostering closer connections. At least for me. YMMV.
One of the few times in someone's life that you get to glimpse many of their facets all in one place is their funeral. Weddings are skipped if someone doesn't want to go to the expense of buying a gift and attending. Same for many other life events.
Unless someone makes a conscious effort to bring all their circles of friends together in a series of parties and events, many times these circles stay separate and sometimes these groups are completely unaware of each other. My epiphany that social "platforms" were crap at their claimed mission was w-a-a-a-y back when I realized they were no better at getting my different circles of friends together with me than if I didn't have the platforms in my life and didn't lift a finger to try to consciously bring them together.
These days, I tell people from all my friend groups to drop by an all-day party I hold, they'll meet interesting people, and hang out. The social platform works great for coordinating in my use case, but apparently not for really fostering closer connections. At least for me. YMMV.
> Weddings are skipped if someone doesn't want to go to the expense of buying a gift and attending. Same for many other life events.
Funerals can be skipped due to age-old grudges against other relatives who will also be at the funeral. Wisdom often correlates with age, but age doesn't always cause wisdom - and sometimes elderly people need help moving on too.
Funerals can be skipped due to age-old grudges against other relatives who will also be at the funeral. Wisdom often correlates with age, but age doesn't always cause wisdom - and sometimes elderly people need help moving on too.
> Funerals can be skipped due to...
Without a doubt this happens all too often. I've seen less reluctance when it comes to funerals than other life events, especially if one side of the grudge is laying in the casket. For all of the fostering of connections technology has afforded us, I find it ironic that sometimes the technology drives grudges deeper and longer than if the parties know that this meeting might be the very last they ever see each other because that trans-Atlantic trip is one-way.
Without a doubt this happens all too often. I've seen less reluctance when it comes to funerals than other life events, especially if one side of the grudge is laying in the casket. For all of the fostering of connections technology has afforded us, I find it ironic that sometimes the technology drives grudges deeper and longer than if the parties know that this meeting might be the very last they ever see each other because that trans-Atlantic trip is one-way.
You'd think those people have seen enough of the "he seemed fine" trope on TV and elsewhere to avoid it. It's like, instead, they are tripping themselves to invoke it. "Hey, the camera is in my face, let me show off how versed I am in 'know your meme' material."
"I'm a total expert in predicting who might be about to do a thing like that! I've even followed a psychology blog or two. But this one, he had me stumped. He was a such nice guy! Always said hello, petted the dog and smiled at the kids."
"I'm a total expert in predicting who might be about to do a thing like that! I've even followed a psychology blog or two. But this one, he had me stumped. He was a such nice guy! Always said hello, petted the dog and smiled at the kids."
>You'd think those people have seen enough of the "he seemed fine" trope on TV and elsewhere to avoid it.
They don't live their lives by following or avoiding tropes.
(Or some of the might they might, but this is not what was going on in this case).
They say "he/she seemed fine" because that's exactly that what he/she seemed.
They are not going to be altering the reality of what they have seen just so they say something original on camera.
They don't live their lives by following or avoiding tropes.
(Or some of the might they might, but this is not what was going on in this case).
They say "he/she seemed fine" because that's exactly that what he/she seemed.
They are not going to be altering the reality of what they have seen just so they say something original on camera.
There are many reasons to say that 'he seemed fine' which is why I think people say it so often. They rarely say that 'he seemed happy' though...
There'll always be more to that than meets the eye. Processing the death of a loved one is hard enough as it is; add in the fact that they killed themselves and suddenly the grief of that loss becomes incredibly complex.
That last moment you spent with them, with no idea of it being the last one, might have been wonderful. How would you reconcile your feeling in that moment with them suddenly cutting their life short? They seemed fine. If only they reached out? Is it my fault for not being there when they needed me? Why!? Anger, grief, sorrow, moments of joy when you look back on what was...
Add to that we in the western world are generally not very good at talking about our feelings, wanting to appear strong and holding everything together, not feeling like we will be listened to if we open up, or actually being afraid of being judged or stigmatised for it. Never mind being put on the spot about such a sensitive thing. "He seemed fine," is as good a way as any of hiding the incredible pain and vulnerability you will have, just as giving that appearance of being fine is a great way to hide a terrible internal torment that ultimately makes you take your life, because you don't feel like you can reach out for the support you need.
It's highly unlikely that someone, when asked, will go into great detail about how they're actually feeling about that. They have to be given the space to open up if they feel comfortable to do so, in order to get past that protective response.
This has been my experience from my own suicide attempts in the past decade. The first time I was exactly like that - hiding everything, 'seeming fine' - because I trusted nobody enough to really open up to them. The second time, I did trust someone, a couple of friends and a therapist, and I kept my heart as open as I possibly could the whole way. This was painful for everybody involved, especially after the second attempt and a very close call with a third, but that pain is nothing in comparison to what it would be if I never reached out and succeeded in the attempt.
The point in all of that ramble being, maybe in time we as a society will reach a more compassionate place where it's easier to share these aspects of ourselves if we want to.
That last moment you spent with them, with no idea of it being the last one, might have been wonderful. How would you reconcile your feeling in that moment with them suddenly cutting their life short? They seemed fine. If only they reached out? Is it my fault for not being there when they needed me? Why!? Anger, grief, sorrow, moments of joy when you look back on what was...
Add to that we in the western world are generally not very good at talking about our feelings, wanting to appear strong and holding everything together, not feeling like we will be listened to if we open up, or actually being afraid of being judged or stigmatised for it. Never mind being put on the spot about such a sensitive thing. "He seemed fine," is as good a way as any of hiding the incredible pain and vulnerability you will have, just as giving that appearance of being fine is a great way to hide a terrible internal torment that ultimately makes you take your life, because you don't feel like you can reach out for the support you need.
It's highly unlikely that someone, when asked, will go into great detail about how they're actually feeling about that. They have to be given the space to open up if they feel comfortable to do so, in order to get past that protective response.
This has been my experience from my own suicide attempts in the past decade. The first time I was exactly like that - hiding everything, 'seeming fine' - because I trusted nobody enough to really open up to them. The second time, I did trust someone, a couple of friends and a therapist, and I kept my heart as open as I possibly could the whole way. This was painful for everybody involved, especially after the second attempt and a very close call with a third, but that pain is nothing in comparison to what it would be if I never reached out and succeeded in the attempt.
The point in all of that ramble being, maybe in time we as a society will reach a more compassionate place where it's easier to share these aspects of ourselves if we want to.
> “social” platform
I never realized it, but the biggest reason why I don't like social media could be the terrible name. Will put "social" in quotes from now on!
I never realized it, but the biggest reason why I don't like social media could be the terrible name. Will put "social" in quotes from now on!
I just go all the way and call it "antisocial" - antisocial media, antisocial networks, antisocial marketing. Works pretty well.
I think that's what they mean when they say the internet.
This seems like a truly terrible situation where when you get what you think you want it's not what you expected it to be, all tied in with a series of unfortunate events that seem somewhat predictable, i.e. delays on new things, people getting illnesses. In their rush to produce it may have been more prudent to get into a solid financial situation with their windfall. Then again this could just have easily panned out and we'd be talking about how this is the great new model for old companies. I think the real lesson is to remember that what separates good times from bad times can often be bad luck and illness. :(
I backed that project, and I really like the scissors I received. Terribly sad to hear about the all-too-human real-life difficulties with the firm.
It sounds like their sudden viral popularity created too many obligations to fulfill, but not enough to scale up sustainably.
Truly victims of their own success.
I know that stretch goals are popular but there's something to be said for not overcommitting. I have in mind a few other crowdfunded campaigns that were much more successful than initially envisioned, with the bonus rewards/additional content that they promised apparently causing delays or cost overruns for the creators.
I know that stretch goals are popular but there's something to be said for not overcommitting. I have in mind a few other crowdfunded campaigns that were much more successful than initially envisioned, with the bonus rewards/additional content that they promised apparently causing delays or cost overruns for the creators.
I was thinking about what they could have done. (I watched the video.) I first thought, perhaps they could have just made them at their usual rate of work, and simply taken two, three years to deliver. This is the case with world-class restaurants that have year-long waiting lists.
Or, they could have had a higher price.
It was then that I realized why an "artisanal" scissor with a viral independent video about it and real old-world charm might cost $100.
Not because it's "worth" $100. Not because hipsters are idiots who don't know what to do with their cash.
But simply to limit the seller's obligation to fulfill.
I am not saying it is the solution here, just that it gives another perspective on insane artisan pricing.
(I hope my comment is not insensitive to the family and people involved. I have no idea of what is behind the story and express my sympathy to all involved.)
Or, they could have had a higher price.
It was then that I realized why an "artisanal" scissor with a viral independent video about it and real old-world charm might cost $100.
Not because it's "worth" $100. Not because hipsters are idiots who don't know what to do with their cash.
But simply to limit the seller's obligation to fulfill.
I am not saying it is the solution here, just that it gives another perspective on insane artisan pricing.
(I hope my comment is not insensitive to the family and people involved. I have no idea of what is behind the story and express my sympathy to all involved.)
It’s 100 dollars because it costs 100 dollars to make, including enough margin to support the business
I don't know, from the write-up it does seem that their business was pretty sustainable at their usual prices. It seems to me that if they had received 90% fewer orders (not gone as viral) they would still be in business.
Anyway if I had said "$400" my point still applies but I doubt you would say that's what it costs to make, including enough margin to support the business. It's just an alternative way to view a $100 (or $400) price point.
Anyway if I had said "$400" my point still applies but I doubt you would say that's what it costs to make, including enough margin to support the business. It's just an alternative way to view a $100 (or $400) price point.
Strictly speaking raising the price isn't necessary to limit order volume; you could just ... limit order volume. There are X widgets available in 2018, and once they're ordered, they're gone.
Granted, raising the price may also be good, because it restricts the market to "people who are willing to pay more" rather than "people who happen to order first", but sometimes that isn't desirable (this is a constant argument around eg PAX tickets).
Granted, raising the price may also be good, because it restricts the market to "people who are willing to pay more" rather than "people who happen to order first", but sometimes that isn't desirable (this is a constant argument around eg PAX tickets).
Ultimately their pricing model was wrong, they could have charged more and still reached their kickstarter goal, which would have given bigger margins and would have put way less pressure on the business.
$100 really isn't a lot of money for hand-made scissors. It's the starting point for high-quality hairdressing scissors, with prices ranging to over $1,000.
https://www.scissorscraft.co.uk/hairdressing-scissors
https://www.scissorscraft.co.uk/hairdressing-scissors
>It sounds like their sudden viral popularity created too many obligations to fulfill, but not enough to scale up sustainably. Truly victims of their own success.
The slashdot effect (do people use that term anymore? see also the reddit effect) for real life instead of web servers. The web creates very interesting problems in the rapid ability for demand to outstrip supply – websites were just the first examples but as stories like this illustrate, it can also be products – and Facebook, etc. show the social side where we often have too many things vying for our attention or social interaction and even compassion/things to care about. How do we smooth out those peaks and valleys? That's clearly part of what FB has tried to do with how they manage users feeds – and it's a dicey thing because that very thing has led to suspicion (rightly or wrongly)... some days it really does feel like we're at or just past that with which we are able to cope.
The slashdot effect (do people use that term anymore? see also the reddit effect) for real life instead of web servers. The web creates very interesting problems in the rapid ability for demand to outstrip supply – websites were just the first examples but as stories like this illustrate, it can also be products – and Facebook, etc. show the social side where we often have too many things vying for our attention or social interaction and even compassion/things to care about. How do we smooth out those peaks and valleys? That's clearly part of what FB has tried to do with how they manage users feeds – and it's a dicey thing because that very thing has led to suspicion (rightly or wrongly)... some days it really does feel like we're at or just past that with which we are able to cope.
Physical products see lots of delays, year plus not uncommon from what I’ve seen, in the kick starter space. What surprised me is how old this company is, and that this was their bread and butter product. Their LinkedIn shows they’ve been in business since 1902. That’s over 100 years in business, yet they still had a massive delay, over scissors. To me, that’s like saying a Samsung or Apple, had a two year delay on one of their mid cycle phones (e.g.,Iphone S versions).
well, given that they "received two years worth of orders on a single day", it's quite likely they attempted to invest to meet the demand, but invested incorrectly/poorly due to a lack of knowledge with such volumes, and could have easily ended up failing that way. And apparently two core workers downed by illness halfway through doesn't help.
I know the priority is different for phones but Apple haven’t been able to keep their Mac line up to date for a few years now.
Even their best selling MacBook Pros seem to be permanently stuck with the last generation’s processors.
Business priorities can be difficult for companies of all sizes.
Even their best selling MacBook Pros seem to be permanently stuck with the last generation’s processors.
Business priorities can be difficult for companies of all sizes.
If you read more, they lost most of their key personnel.
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They probably don't make new versions all that often.
or the scissor design has been around since the 50s and nobody remember how to make the mold and the whole process, maybe there was a reason why they didnt have customers anymore...
My company is family owned, and when my granpa died, a lot of knowledge was lost, my dad is kind of dumb and sunk the company in debt and lost all the customers for years, when I joined, I worked hard for 10 years and now we are back as leaders on our community, but I invested heavily on machinery and studied a lot for new products and reborn old ones.
It happened several times that I was at the tooling warehouse with my dad and asked, what's this tool/machine for? and he didnt knew it, just to discover it some years later.
Yet, I can say that my company was founded on 1920 and I'm the fourth generation running (or ruining) it.
My company is family owned, and when my granpa died, a lot of knowledge was lost, my dad is kind of dumb and sunk the company in debt and lost all the customers for years, when I joined, I worked hard for 10 years and now we are back as leaders on our community, but I invested heavily on machinery and studied a lot for new products and reborn old ones.
It happened several times that I was at the tooling warehouse with my dad and asked, what's this tool/machine for? and he didnt knew it, just to discover it some years later.
Yet, I can say that my company was founded on 1920 and I'm the fourth generation running (or ruining) it.
Coincidentally, I can tell a story about computer keyboards, in this case Ultra Classic from Unicomp. Their keyboards use the same technology as the legendary IBM Model M keyboard (I have one that was produced in 1985 and it's still my favourite keyboard, use it almost every day). I even heard (though don't know if it's true) that Unicomp produced branded Model M's for a while.
But even though the Unicomp has mechanics equal or comparable to the Model M, they have serious issues with the molding process. In spite of warnings on various internet forums, I got a slightly used keyboard from Ebay and it quickly developped issues with the space bar (the mold is so bad that the key had too much friction).
They have been nice enough to send a new space bar, but sure enough the new one has a huge dent on it (only affecting looks this time). Also, I'm left with a deformed spring (I thought I'd been careful but...). Now being offered RMA and being requested to send it from Europe to USA. Again, friendly service, but I'd rather have quality.
I don't know anything about molding, but it seems to be that some process knowledge gets lost over time, as demand decreases. (Or maybe the machines need to get serviced?)
UPDATE, found an introduction an youtube and loved it. Submission, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17381697
But even though the Unicomp has mechanics equal or comparable to the Model M, they have serious issues with the molding process. In spite of warnings on various internet forums, I got a slightly used keyboard from Ebay and it quickly developped issues with the space bar (the mold is so bad that the key had too much friction).
They have been nice enough to send a new space bar, but sure enough the new one has a huge dent on it (only affecting looks this time). Also, I'm left with a deformed spring (I thought I'd been careful but...). Now being offered RMA and being requested to send it from Europe to USA. Again, friendly service, but I'd rather have quality.
I don't know anything about molding, but it seems to be that some process knowledge gets lost over time, as demand decreases. (Or maybe the machines need to get serviced?)
UPDATE, found an introduction an youtube and loved it. Submission, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17381697
Thanks for sharing your story. I'm glad you were able to get the business back on it's feet. I'm sure it was a journey.
It is very interesting how long-running companies change over time. I'm reading "The Toyota Way" right now, which shows some of the interesting history if that company (the main focus isn't history).
It is very interesting how long-running companies change over time. I'm reading "The Toyota Way" right now, which shows some of the interesting history if that company (the main focus isn't history).
Thanks for sharing. It’s a point of view I didn’t take even though I come from family owned businesses. Usually small businesses fail fast, so my thought that since it lasted so long it must’ve been ran at least decently well. Didn’t think documentation would be such a big problem for such a specialized company.
None of the family businesses I’ve been apart of lasted more than one generation lol. The children usually looking to not continue what their parents did, or sick of it since they were forced to help since they were kids. Passing on a company to the heir that has no interest except it was what was expected is dangerous. Happy you were able to turn it around.
None of the family businesses I’ve been apart of lasted more than one generation lol. The children usually looking to not continue what their parents did, or sick of it since they were forced to help since they were kids. Passing on a company to the heir that has no interest except it was what was expected is dangerous. Happy you were able to turn it around.
Curious, what company?
This is so sad, to an extent that I wish it was a scam and nobody has died waiting for organ transplant or took their own life.
I’m worried that the fact they couldn’t succeed in spite of such an upwelling of support may have been contributory to Nick’s despair. :/
He kills himself and four months later the new person admits how in debt they are. That has to be rough for everyone. I’ve worked at places where we were losing money on every deal, but never one with my dad’s name on it. I can only begin to imagine.
He kills himself and four months later the new person admits how in debt they are. That has to be rough for everyone. I’ve worked at places where we were losing money on every deal, but never one with my dad’s name on it. I can only begin to imagine.
It sounds like in his suicide note in the story that's exactly why he did it.
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Agreed, I remember hearing about this and was happy to see it draw attention to their business. Now that just seems like a cruel twist of the knife.
That is sad. I really appreciated the way this sentence got at the essence of this tragic situation:
“The internet can seem so intimate but ultimately it’s a thin view of an individual’s or company’s reality.“
of course that’s true, but then when I think about it, it sure doesn’t seem that way day to day. We look out at the world in a way that is increasingly mediated by the internet, and so it comes to seem like the actual thing in itself.
“The internet can seem so intimate but ultimately it’s a thin view of an individual’s or company’s reality.“
of course that’s true, but then when I think about it, it sure doesn’t seem that way day to day. We look out at the world in a way that is increasingly mediated by the internet, and so it comes to seem like the actual thing in itself.
> "We look out at the world in a way that is increasingly mediated by the internet, and so it comes to seem like the actual thing in itself."
Reminds me a lot of Debord.
> “The spectacle is not a collection of images, but a social relation among people, mediated by images.”
Reminds me a lot of Debord.
> “The spectacle is not a collection of images, but a social relation among people, mediated by images.”
If you’re looking for a quality Scissors, there is a Finnish company called Fiskars[1] that makes amazing high quality scissors (and shovels) that amazon.com carries.
Disclosure: not affiliated. Just wanted to give them a shoutout since very few people I ran into have ever heard of them.
[1] http://www.fiskars.com/
Disclosure: not affiliated. Just wanted to give them a shoutout since very few people I ran into have ever heard of them.
[1] http://www.fiskars.com/
I'm surprised you don't meet many people who have heard of fiskars - I grew up in the Northeast USA, and there's near-universal agreement in my social circle that Fiskars makes the best quality scissors on the market, to the extent that we all share memories of fighting over who got to use the fiskars during craft time in elementary school. Weird!
I grew up in the Midwest and it's the only scissors brand I can name from memory. Maybe it's a thing for US Millennials.
I wouldn't consider it universal. They farm out much of their production to China and the quality suffers.
Heritage (now owned by Klein tool) is a domestic US manufacturer of forged scissors in a variety of styles available at competitive prices. They eclipse the typical ground scissors that permeate the retail market.
Heritage (now owned by Klein tool) is a domestic US manufacturer of forged scissors in a variety of styles available at competitive prices. They eclipse the typical ground scissors that permeate the retail market.
Grew up NE US also, never heard of them
If you sew or garden it’s hard not to bump into them.
I'm a big fan of Kai scissors. Their shears are a joy to use -- super sharp, chomps through fabric like butter, with soft plastic handles. I found them a step up from my Gingher shears, definitely easier on the hands.
They also make the best damn bobby pins, pins that literally do not deform or break, that seem like they could last a lifetime.
I think they make knifes under the Kershaw brand. I've had one I really like, but I don't know much about knives.
They also make the best damn bobby pins, pins that literally do not deform or break, that seem like they could last a lifetime.
I think they make knifes under the Kershaw brand. I've had one I really like, but I don't know much about knives.
These are also fine scissors:
https://www.harborfreight.com/7-inch-multipurpose-stainless-...
If you live in USA you are probably close to a Harbor Freight, so you could have them today.
https://www.harborfreight.com/7-inch-multipurpose-stainless-...
If you live in USA you are probably close to a Harbor Freight, so you could have them today.
HF gives these away for free sometimes:
https://www.harborfreight.com/multipurpose-scissors-47877.ht...
I have many pairs -- they work fine for most ordinary tasks.
https://www.harborfreight.com/multipurpose-scissors-47877.ht...
I have many pairs -- they work fine for most ordinary tasks.
Do you have a recommendation for American-made scissors?
Klein Tools. Very high quality stuff.
Thanks! I'm one of those old farts who uses zip ties to organize cables around the house, I think those Klein scissors will stand up to my abuse quite nicely!
Klein tools are borderline pornographic. I own their linesmen pliers and scissors. I also use their canvas zip bags as a man purse. Ridiculously amazing in every aspect.
Wow. I didn’t realize they were Finnish. I’ve grown up with so many of these in India, I used to think they were actually Indian! TIL.
I'm in New Zealand here, I used to think they were from here too
Bata is not Indian either. It's a Swiss company. I wonder how many know that in India.
Bata is originally a Czech company (Baťa), their owners were forced to emigrate and lost everything they owned in the Czechoslovakia after the communists came to power. The family of the owners was famous even during communism here, because while they were industrialists, certainly not the heartless kind. They built universities and whole towns so their employees could live in comfort. Now I read there are towns named after them in other areas in the world, so they took the practice to the global stage. Interesting.
That's great to know! Thanks a lot for the information!
> Now I read there are towns named after them in other areas in the world, so they took the practice to the global stage. Interesting.
Yep! We have one in India as well called Batanagar (City of Bata): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batanagar
> Now I read there are towns named after them in other areas in the world, so they took the practice to the global stage. Interesting.
Yep! We have one in India as well called Batanagar (City of Bata): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batanagar
I wonder if someone in China was thinking the same? Because the reality is now it is Chinese.
If you use scissors professionally or just like nice things I'd recommend Kai. Fiskars are what your aunt buys from the fabric store.
Your aunt doesn't know better then. As some others have pointed out, it's now Chinese made and the Q&A on all products out of mainland China is just a gamble.
If you want a really good one, Forged steel scissors, the kind that tailors use for their whole life; look no further than:
~ $20 (I bought them back in 2000's when they were $50) Gingher http://gingher.com/
~$150 William Whiteley http://www.whiteley.co.uk/
~ $20 (I bought them back in 2000's when they were $50) Gingher http://gingher.com/
~$150 William Whiteley http://www.whiteley.co.uk/
I bought Gingher 5" craft scissors in 2013 to keep at the office and liked them so much I bought another pair in 2015 for the house. The quality seems top-notch. I use them to cut everything--sometimes just because I can--and they're still as sharp and perfectly aligned as the first day.[1]
Like any geek I had spent an absurd amount of time researching scissors. Even by 2013 Fiskars had already seemed to be moving manufacturing off-shore to China. Not that there aren't top-notch products coming out of China, but as a consumer it's a gamble. Fiskars has a quite large product line so maybe they still make some stuff in Europe or the U.S., but that didn't seem to be the case for the stuff I had found on Amazon.
[1] That's an exaggeration, of course. (The "everything" part; they really are still as sharp and aligned.) I try to use our crappy kitchen sheers for anything that might require extensive cleaning (e.g. cutting meat packaging) because I suspect the Gingher are high carbon steel and the edges would likely rust if I kept washing them. (I use alcohol wipes when necessary, like to remove packaging adhesive.) And I use a pair of aviation snips for really tough jobs, partly because of the better lever action and partly to postpone the day I need to actually sharpen the Ginghers. The Ginghers could probably take much more abuse then I give them, but I can't say for sure.
Like any geek I had spent an absurd amount of time researching scissors. Even by 2013 Fiskars had already seemed to be moving manufacturing off-shore to China. Not that there aren't top-notch products coming out of China, but as a consumer it's a gamble. Fiskars has a quite large product line so maybe they still make some stuff in Europe or the U.S., but that didn't seem to be the case for the stuff I had found on Amazon.
[1] That's an exaggeration, of course. (The "everything" part; they really are still as sharp and aligned.) I try to use our crappy kitchen sheers for anything that might require extensive cleaning (e.g. cutting meat packaging) because I suspect the Gingher are high carbon steel and the edges would likely rust if I kept washing them. (I use alcohol wipes when necessary, like to remove packaging adhesive.) And I use a pair of aviation snips for really tough jobs, partly because of the better lever action and partly to postpone the day I need to actually sharpen the Ginghers. The Ginghers could probably take much more abuse then I give them, but I can't say for sure.
Huh. It seems Gingher has been a subsidiary of Fiskars since 2005. So Fiskars does indeed still make great scissors!
Source: https://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.a...
Source: https://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.a...
I don't really like all this China bashing. Lots of companies are moving their production to China not because it is cheaper to produce there, but because the quality is much better.
Eg. just 2 weeks ago a favorite kanoe designer of mine announced to move his production from the US to China. https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1015742899150912...
Eg. just 2 weeks ago a favorite kanoe designer of mine announced to move his production from the US to China. https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1015742899150912...
China produces some excellent quality, and a vast amount of awful quality as for the last couple of decades that has been their selling point.
It's not so long ago that it was Japan that produced mostly crap and made lots of inferior copies of western goods. They moved past it, and now are often superior, as will China.
I see it not as China bashing more brand bashing. There's an expectation of quality from some of the old names that built reputation making a particular product. In the main, quality manufacturers that have moved production elsewhere have lost a lot of that quality - wherever they moved it to. Just the same happens when brands become just a word in someone's brand portfolio after they've been bought up a time or two.
e.g. Fiskars are huge and spent the 2000's buying up dozens of famous international luxury brands, closing their factories, and selling much inferior, made elsewhere, products on those brand names.
It's not so long ago that it was Japan that produced mostly crap and made lots of inferior copies of western goods. They moved past it, and now are often superior, as will China.
I see it not as China bashing more brand bashing. There's an expectation of quality from some of the old names that built reputation making a particular product. In the main, quality manufacturers that have moved production elsewhere have lost a lot of that quality - wherever they moved it to. Just the same happens when brands become just a word in someone's brand portfolio after they've been bought up a time or two.
e.g. Fiskars are huge and spent the 2000's buying up dozens of famous international luxury brands, closing their factories, and selling much inferior, made elsewhere, products on those brand names.
Yeah, it's not so much China per se as once quality brands increasingly churning out mediocre goods at low costs in various overseas factories. Mind you, the trend of retail conglomerates, private equity firms, etc. owning a bunch of brand names/catalogs is nothing new. But current trends towards disposable goods, fast fashion, etc. have exacerbated it.
I don’t agree with the comparisons with Japan in the 80’s. It seems like every time someone bring ups China’s manufacturing, they have to somehow relate to Japan’s past. For one, Japan isn’t an authoritarian rule and second, we are about 4 decades into the future. There was no e-commerce, no internet, na completely different world. Commerce wasn’t the same as it is today. Furthermore, Chinese and Japanese values are on opposite side of the spectrum.
...and? Before Japan it was Hong Kong and South Korea making the crap, before that someone else. South Korea was authoritarian and autocratic, whilst its economy grew at breakneck pace starting in the 60s, and remained so until the late 90s. Japan had democracy thrust upon it rather earlier for well known reasons.
They all seem to take a markedly similar approach to development catch-up, namely a heavy emphasis on education and steadily moving from cheap and inferior copies to local innovation and quality. China is well along that route.
Authoritarianism doesn't rule out development, neither does democracy.
They all seem to take a markedly similar approach to development catch-up, namely a heavy emphasis on education and steadily moving from cheap and inferior copies to local innovation and quality. China is well along that route.
Authoritarianism doesn't rule out development, neither does democracy.
During the 80s Japan was ruled the a single party that had been in power since the end of WW2.
Exactly. It's strange how a lot of people just lump all these various companies together and just call it "China."
There are tons of Chinese companies that make extremely high quality stuff. You just have to be willing to pay for it.
There are tons of Chinese companies that make extremely high quality stuff. You just have to be willing to pay for it.
Fiskars seem to be everywhere I’ve been. They’re kind of mass market these days and routine quality. Not bad, but not anything particularly outstanding.
I bought a Fiskars hand axe, in part, because I liked the idea of having an axe that was the same brand as the dainty little shears we have in our "craft box". (It's also a nice hand axe, too!)
They also make a wonderful push lawnmower.
Weird that people haven't heard of them, they were super common here on the West Coast USA when I was in school.
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That is incredibly sad. I bought several pairs of their shears for my partner, and they are absolutely brilliant. The company was also great to buy from - they were able to give personalised advice about which ones I should get and when one wasn’t quite right, they were really quick to offer a return and replacement.
Hopefully Wright didn't commit suicide because of his inability to fulfil these kickstarter orders.
If he did, it shows a failing of the bankruptcy system. Individuals obligations to a company should never be such that they have no way out.
If he did, it shows a failing of the bankruptcy system. Individuals obligations to a company should never be such that they have no way out.
It wasn’t just a company, it’s a 5th generation family business founded in 1902.
I can’t imagine the pressure to keep things going. And when there’s no money anywhere, one on your main craftsman has died and the other one is off sick, the Kickstarter bsckers are hassling you and you have quality issues across your business, it might look like there’s no way out.
I can’t imagine the pressure to keep things going. And when there’s no money anywhere, one on your main craftsman has died and the other one is off sick, the Kickstarter bsckers are hassling you and you have quality issues across your business, it might look like there’s no way out.
Their Companies House filings show a charge registered for a loan late last year, presumably a last ditch attempt to keep it running. The filings from the last few years show it was barely profitable. Sounds like it was a very desperate position.
As well as the family connection others have mentioned, there is still a worse stigma about insolvency in the UK than the US for instance. I gather the actual process is more involved too.
Administration, might be exactly what this company needs. Remembering that there are lots of people's livelihoods at stake here apart from the owners, this might be what allows them to ditch their debt and invest in some modern equipment. It seems to me that keeping the hand fitting element in place, but working from much more complete blanks would make scissors that are just as good, but a company that is much more profitable.
Administration, might be exactly what this company needs. Remembering that there are lots of people's livelihoods at stake here apart from the owners, this might be what allows them to ditch their debt and invest in some modern equipment. It seems to me that keeping the hand fitting element in place, but working from much more complete blanks would make scissors that are just as good, but a company that is much more profitable.
Man, the internet is a cold, cold place.
I was deeply touched by the article, on how sudden fame and the drive for growth and success can take a huge toll. How execution and a healthy mind are as important as a good product or idea. Or how debt or crowdfunding can be the wrong way to raise money fast for a product yet to be delivered.
But here we have it, long threads discurring on what would be the best brand of scissors in the market today.
> The internet can seem so intimate but ultimately it’s a thin view of an individual’s reality.
I was deeply touched by the article, on how sudden fame and the drive for growth and success can take a huge toll. How execution and a healthy mind are as important as a good product or idea. Or how debt or crowdfunding can be the wrong way to raise money fast for a product yet to be delivered.
But here we have it, long threads discurring on what would be the best brand of scissors in the market today.
> The internet can seem so intimate but ultimately it’s a thin view of an individual’s reality.
> The internet can seem so intimate but ultimately it’s a thin view of an individual’s or company’s reality.
Ironically, this very article provides a deeper view into these folks' realities.
I'm not sure what insight the author is expecting us to gain from this statement. Even IRL one can only know others "thinly". Your own children, and for a rare few, soulmates, are the closest you will come to knowing anyone "deeply".
Ironically, this very article provides a deeper view into these folks' realities.
I'm not sure what insight the author is expecting us to gain from this statement. Even IRL one can only know others "thinly". Your own children, and for a rare few, soulmates, are the closest you will come to knowing anyone "deeply".
Very tragic for Wright and his loved ones.
I bought some nail scissors from their website a few years ago when hunting around for something better than they sell in Boots in the UK high street - I marvelled at their comparative quality - I even posted to my FB page to recommend them.
I feel sad and wistful also, to see the decline of the company, which seemed inherently artisanal.
More sheet-pressed tat from China, less handmade steel, alas.
I bought some nail scissors from their website a few years ago when hunting around for something better than they sell in Boots in the UK high street - I marvelled at their comparative quality - I even posted to my FB page to recommend them.
I feel sad and wistful also, to see the decline of the company, which seemed inherently artisanal.
More sheet-pressed tat from China, less handmade steel, alas.
I’ve watched that video probably over a dozen times since I first saw it on Kottke. This makes me sad.
For highly abusable kitchen shears, I love these ($20-40) from Kershaw/Kai/etc.: https://www.amazon.com/Kershaw-Taskmaster-1120X-Multifunctio...
How could we know whether those sad news are true and not?
The scissors seem like any other pair of steel scissors. I wonder why this hasn't been outsourced to China. These guys could have worked on something more productive than scissors.
To be good, scissors have to be sharp, even, and fit together juuust right. A tiny deviance creates a huge about of suck. Someone mentioned Fiskars above. The first time I used these I ran around looking for things to cut. I just couldn't believe scissors could be that good. They were.
This type of reductionism is seldom helpful. Painting is just smearing oil on a canvas? Programming is just "typing a bunch of stuff"? I don't think so. Craft matters.
This type of reductionism is seldom helpful. Painting is just smearing oil on a canvas? Programming is just "typing a bunch of stuff"? I don't think so. Craft matters.
This kind of reductionism is why I have to wade through a pile of barely adequate tools every day at work.
Part of my brain knows that people who use physical tools for a living use old and slightly busted ones all the time, but another part fantasizes about pulling a Peter Gibbons and going to work with people who actually appreciate the value of the right tool.
Part of my brain knows that people who use physical tools for a living use old and slightly busted ones all the time, but another part fantasizes about pulling a Peter Gibbons and going to work with people who actually appreciate the value of the right tool.
In my manual labour days I often bought old tools because they were so much better than the new ones...except...
Take a Stanley number 5 Jack Plane. An old one weighs less, is flatter, has nicer handles, the iron sits better and the adjustments are better... than a new Stanley. However they are both worse than a Veritas one made on modern equipment, but... at four times the price.
What happened here is that a Stanley in 1940 cost a serious amount of money. A Stanley in 2018 its quite cheap because Stanley decided to stay mass market by reducing quality. However the space they left has been back-filled by newer higher quality makers using modern materials and techniques.
Take a Stanley number 5 Jack Plane. An old one weighs less, is flatter, has nicer handles, the iron sits better and the adjustments are better... than a new Stanley. However they are both worse than a Veritas one made on modern equipment, but... at four times the price.
What happened here is that a Stanley in 1940 cost a serious amount of money. A Stanley in 2018 its quite cheap because Stanley decided to stay mass market by reducing quality. However the space they left has been back-filled by newer higher quality makers using modern materials and techniques.
Story: I just bought a new house and the space for the kitchen range was too small by just a hair for the new induction range my wife insisted on. The construction manager came out and proceeded to take apart a utility knife to get the blade out to use it as a substitute scraper to shave the wood cabinet down a bit. I told the guy I have a good small Lie-Nielsen block plane already unpacked in the garage that'll do a much better job, but he insisted on the knife blade. And you know what? It turned out just fine.
I think a lot of folks nowadays have never used a really good high-quality tool and have no idea what they're missing.
I think a lot of folks nowadays have never used a really good high-quality tool and have no idea what they're missing.
Heck for that job he should get or make a couple of scrapers. They take up no space.
> To be good, scissors have to be sharp, even, and fit together juuust right. A tiny deviance creates a huge about of suck.
Do you think the tolerances in a Samsung phone manufactured in China are laxer than that? High quality scissors can be manufactured in China. For people in UK to waste their time on it is unnecessary. And that's probably the reason why such endevours usually fail.
Do you think the tolerances in a Samsung phone manufactured in China are laxer than that? High quality scissors can be manufactured in China. For people in UK to waste their time on it is unnecessary. And that's probably the reason why such endevours usually fail.
They can be manufactured well in China, but will they? Companies like Apple have the clout, money, and time to supervise production and guarantee quality. But the typical story is that some small or mid-sized business abandons a reliable and high-quality domestic process to the promises of some sales rep from China. Consistency and quality drop precipitously but it's excused because the CEO has already relegated the company to the race to the bottom.
The domestic companies are usually the ones left behind after a century of intense competition during a time when quality and longevity were paramount and customers couldn't afford to constantly replace equipment. Chinese industry has arisen in a global market built around a different dynamic--cheap industrial labor selling products to rich consumers who are less discerning, or in any event don't mind buying throwaway tools.
That says little about the inherent skill of Chinese labor and industry and everything about how free markets operate and industrial processes evolve.
The domestic companies are usually the ones left behind after a century of intense competition during a time when quality and longevity were paramount and customers couldn't afford to constantly replace equipment. Chinese industry has arisen in a global market built around a different dynamic--cheap industrial labor selling products to rich consumers who are less discerning, or in any event don't mind buying throwaway tools.
That says little about the inherent skill of Chinese labor and industry and everything about how free markets operate and industrial processes evolve.
Moving production to China is often (but not always) a cost-cutting measure. It's often about volume - Chinese manufacturers can scale production in a way that Western manufacturers can't. They have shorter and more agile supply chains and a much deeper labour pool. Scaling up production always carries the risk of quality degradation, mostly because you're diluting the skill base of your manufacturing workforce.
China can't match the quality of the very best German and Japanese manufacturers, but they're pretty damned close in a lot of areas. Quality usually starts to slip because the OEM customer demands it - cutting corners to keep the price down is usually the more profitable option.
China can't match the quality of the very best German and Japanese manufacturers, but they're pretty damned close in a lot of areas. Quality usually starts to slip because the OEM customer demands it - cutting corners to keep the price down is usually the more profitable option.
The book 'Poorly Made in China' offers an excellent glimpse in how that process works. A fascinating and harrowing read!
> For people in UK to waste their time on it is unnecessary.
What does that mean? Why is it a waste of time for a British person and not for a Chinese person?
What does that mean? Why is it a waste of time for a British person and not for a Chinese person?
The value of an hour of your time depends on each individual; the average value of your time depends on region. (The average salary in Romania, for example, is around $1k before taxes - about $600 after. I assume this is much lower than the average salary in, say, SV.)
Given that, wasting an hour to do something yourself instead of paying someone else to do it for you can be counterproductive (see Ricardo's law).
Given that, wasting an hour to do something yourself instead of paying someone else to do it for you can be counterproductive (see Ricardo's law).
China has to import ballpoints for ballpoint pens from Japan because they don't have the skills to manufacture them in China.
Incidentally, Japan also make incredibly high quality scissors. I am yet to find good cutting tools from China, whether it's chef knives, pocket knives, scissors, or even sidecutters and other hand tools for electrical work.
My point I'm trying to make, is that China is good at making certain things, but not others.
We can also add that there is a certain amount of elitism to say that it's not worth Westerners' time to manufacture something as lowly as scissors.
Incidentally, Japan also make incredibly high quality scissors. I am yet to find good cutting tools from China, whether it's chef knives, pocket knives, scissors, or even sidecutters and other hand tools for electrical work.
My point I'm trying to make, is that China is good at making certain things, but not others.
We can also add that there is a certain amount of elitism to say that it's not worth Westerners' time to manufacture something as lowly as scissors.
> China has to import ballpoints for ballpoint pens from Japan because they don't have the skills to manufacture them in China.
You're info is outdated now.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/01/18...
You're info is outdated now.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/01/18...
Sheffield make the 'finest steel in the world', yet all quality machines seem to use Swedish bearings from SKF! I think everywhere has their specialisms.
Maybe people appreciate the workmanship that comes with a handcrafted pair of scissors. Maybe it is sharper, better made. You don’t know that.
If you are a programmer, how would you feel if I questioned your skills, saying that it should be outsourced to India and you are better off doing something else in your life?
Your comment comes off as highly insensitive
If you are a programmer, how would you feel if I questioned your skills, saying that it should be outsourced to India and you are better off doing something else in your life?
Your comment comes off as highly insensitive
> If you are a programmer, how would you feel if I questioned your skills, saying that it should be outsourced to India
I'm already a programmer in India btw.
I'm already a programmer in India btw.
Well that's one hell of a touche, but I guess now we know why you have such a hardon for outsourcing.
I feel that making scissors is a shitty job, not a great acheivement. I wouldn't want to do such a job myself. I don't have a "hardon for outsourcing".
I don't think you've got the right attitude at all. Making anything physical can usually be done in at least four ways: clumsily by hand, low quality and mass produced, high quality and mass produced, and high quality by hand.
As mass production techniques have improved over the last century, manufacturers have usually tried to pare back costs and avoid over-engineering, relying on tighter tolerances to create an acceptable product. Rather than aiming for high quality, instead they minimize defects and maximize profits. Products tend towards acceptable - good enough to buy - but not delightful.
This has gradually created a space for the fourth mode of making, in the bespoke small batch hipster space. It also benefits from a narrative that soulless mass manufacturing can't easily replicate.
When something is made well with artistry and craft, some of the person who made it goes into the product and reaches the end user. A maker with the right attitude will find that fulfilling. It's a tangible connection with other people, and feels honest and validating.
As mass production techniques have improved over the last century, manufacturers have usually tried to pare back costs and avoid over-engineering, relying on tighter tolerances to create an acceptable product. Rather than aiming for high quality, instead they minimize defects and maximize profits. Products tend towards acceptable - good enough to buy - but not delightful.
This has gradually created a space for the fourth mode of making, in the bespoke small batch hipster space. It also benefits from a narrative that soulless mass manufacturing can't easily replicate.
When something is made well with artistry and craft, some of the person who made it goes into the product and reaches the end user. A maker with the right attitude will find that fulfilling. It's a tangible connection with other people, and feels honest and validating.
I guess the craftspeople making scissors don't agree.
From occasional hobbies I find the sense of achievement from a manual or engineering task done well is actually far higher than from software. See Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.
From occasional hobbies I find the sense of achievement from a manual or engineering task done well is actually far higher than from software. See Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.
I gotta say, that’s quite a check mate.
Reminds me of:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35079
Reminds me of:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35079
I think the main reason it hasn't been outsourced is reputation. Chinese manufacturers could make great scissors, but how could they convince people to buy them? Higher quality costs more, and Chinese products have a reputation for low quality at low price. If they increase the price many people will assume it's a scam. I don't think the UK has as good a reputation for quality as e.g. Germany, Japan, or Switzerland, but it's better than China, so the marketing cost will be lower.
That reasoning applies in China as well, or I should say especially in China.
Only among the older generation. The younger generation has a much higher preference for local brands.
Ha! No, if anything it is the exact opposite. Do you enjoy a BYD car or a Ford or even a Hyundai? Or do you like to shop at WuMart or WallMart? McDonalds or Dicos?
Etc...
This isn't even getting into food brands like milk powder.
As for scissors and pens and whatever, just jump into your nearest MUJI and see how many customers are in that store compared to its Chinese counterpart.
Etc...
This isn't even getting into food brands like milk powder.
As for scissors and pens and whatever, just jump into your nearest MUJI and see how many customers are in that store compared to its Chinese counterpart.
Scissors are tools, just like our IDE's.
There's a lot to be said about the craftsman.
At the end of the day we're all of the same breed, but we find code, cloth, or metal to be our medium.
There's a lot to be said about the craftsman.
At the end of the day we're all of the same breed, but we find code, cloth, or metal to be our medium.
A good quality pair of scissors (or anything really) is sometimes worth the effort of "puttering" by a true craftsman -- if you're into that sort of thing, my favorite pair of scissors I found in the road and were probably run over a couple times before I came across them but they're apparently high enough quality to take that sort of abuse.
I found my favorite pair in an old house, some decades ago. They probably date from ~1900. Nothing fancy, just office supply grade. Gotta compress the rivet every few years. But they've never really needed sharpening.
Knives are just a piece of steel too. And yet if you ever find yourself using a quality Chef's knife against a cheap dull Chinese knife, you'll appreciate the difference instantly.
So much so in fact, that your cutting technique will naturally change since using it the way you use dull knives is both more dangerous and less efficient.
So much so in fact, that your cutting technique will naturally change since using it the way you use dull knives is both more dangerous and less efficient.
Sheffield has a long heritage of making fine cutlery and tools. It's the reason we still have saw makers here (despite the fact their products cost 10x a mass produced version) and why there's a Master Cutler of the city.
A lot of that heritage has been lost but there's still a place in the market for fine hand made things.
You probably own some Sheffield cutlery somewhere.
A lot of that heritage has been lost but there's still a place in the market for fine hand made things.
You probably own some Sheffield cutlery somewhere.
That is a very very class driven assumption.
Not necessarily, but probably an age-driven assumption. The cutlery produced in large quantities was made of stainless steel and exported globally; if it was imported from the UK there's a good chance it was made in Sheffield.
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Perfect description of every “social” platform out there.