Fortnite addiction and parenting in the age of screens(twitter.com)
twitter.com
Fortnite addiction and parenting in the age of screens
https://twitter.com/PlayNiceInst/status/1070750717671919616
118 comments
>This wasn't a big issue with single player games because they can be saved/paused
"I need to get to a save room!"
"You can pause it."
5 minutes later
"I unplugged the gamecube because you weren't playing anymore."
...
"I need to get to a save room!"
"You can pause it."
5 minutes later
"I unplugged the gamecube because you weren't playing anymore."
...
Sounds like an excerpt from Bojack Horseman
You're right! I can definitely read it and hear an exchange between Todd and BoJack.
>Now that I'm a parent, I've made a promise to my kids that I will always let them finish their current game before kicking them off. If they start a new game after they've been given the last game warning, then there's consequences. They know this, and we rarely have any issues related to behavior and gaming.
This is good but most parents don't really know how games work so they can't look at the UI to see if their children are lying.
This is good but most parents don't really know how games work so they can't look at the UI to see if their children are lying.
Luckily they have kids that can explain the games to them.
So much this. I'm a parent. I'm a game developer. I'm a former kid who dreamed that someday my parents would sit down and ask me to show them what I was doing.
You should know what your kids are playing, and what better way than to show interest in their hobbies. (And, like, maybe talk about it afterwards?)
You should know what your kids are playing, and what better way than to show interest in their hobbies. (And, like, maybe talk about it afterwards?)
The amount of time required to play most games is extremely high and expectation that parent should spend so much time with something parent does not like completely absurd.
There is also a moment where gamers should understand that the world does not revolt around them nor their games. When everybody is helping preparing dinner and what not, or expected to be on time, there is no rational reason to give the gamer exceptions.
There is also a moment where gamers should understand that the world does not revolt around them nor their games. When everybody is helping preparing dinner and what not, or expected to be on time, there is no rational reason to give the gamer exceptions.
There isn't an expectation that you will put in all the time required to completely learn a game, but there is an expectation that you will put in the time required to have a basic understanding of the game. As a parent you should know what games your children are playing, the type of content they're being exposed to within those games, and the amount of time they're putting into them. If you're not willing to put in enough time to know what your children are doing then don't have children.
no, watching a few rounds of Fortnite or having your kid show you round their Minecraft world does not require "extremely high" amounts of time and already gives you a useful insight in what's going on. Nobody is asking you to become competitive in a game, or even just play if you don't like it. And your second paragraph is a complete non-sequitur.
> When everybody is helping preparing dinner and what not
Right, during those times, the family should be helping prep dinner. My four year old helps prep dinner and does chores afterwards.
But we, as a family, also have leisure time and interests. In my opinion, if your kid was into baseball, you should try and show an interest by going to games or playing catch. If they were into dance, maybe go to their recitals or encourage them to practice.
No one is expecting you to be good at your kids hobbies. Or even enjoy them. But I believe you should show support and make an attempt to regularly engage with them.
Right, during those times, the family should be helping prep dinner. My four year old helps prep dinner and does chores afterwards.
But we, as a family, also have leisure time and interests. In my opinion, if your kid was into baseball, you should try and show an interest by going to games or playing catch. If they were into dance, maybe go to their recitals or encourage them to practice.
No one is expecting you to be good at your kids hobbies. Or even enjoy them. But I believe you should show support and make an attempt to regularly engage with them.
I understand Fortnite and I don't play it. My kids do and so I find out about it, played a few Agnes, watched them and now I know its ok. Other kids get a blanket ban because their parents don't understand or they are playing CoD because their parents don't understand. My kids know that some games are not appropriate for them and if I say something is ok the it's fine. E.g south park fractured but whole is not but halo is.
The parent comment suggested "sit down and ask me to show them what I was doing", not "regularly play and become good at the games they play"
Is it really absurd to expect parents to show just a little bit of interest in their kids hobbies?
>There is also a moment where gamers should understand that the world does not revolt around them nor their games
Is it really unreasonable for children to expect their parents world to pretty much revolve around them?
>There is also a moment where gamers should understand that the world does not revolt around them nor their games
Is it really unreasonable for children to expect their parents world to pretty much revolve around them?
> Is it really unreasonable for children to expect their parents world to pretty much revolve around them?
Yes it is. It is reasonable to expect care and relationship. It is not reasonable to expect your hobby to treated as something more special then hobbies of siblings, grandparents and parents. It is reasonable for other family members to expect kid to participate on activities I mentioned no matter what their interests are.
Parents world revolve around children when they are danger to themselves due to young age or sickness or behavioral problems. It revolves around children for many unavoidable reasons, gaming not being one of them.
It is not reasonable to expect to be tiptoed around just because your choice of hobby. In fact, it is expected that parents teach this the kid.
> Is it really absurd to expect parents to show just a little bit of interest in their kids hobbies?
To be able to listen about it? Yes. To be participating? No. Just like with any other kids interest like collecting little pink ponies or memorizing flags.
If the kid cant organize the game (stop playing soon enough to be at time) while still participating in outside world, then the kid is not ready to play that game. If the kid is moody after playing game and generally pain in the ass, it is reasonable to stop accommodating gaming and dealing with the behavior the same way parents punish/criticize siblings acting that way for non-gaming reasons.
Yes it is. It is reasonable to expect care and relationship. It is not reasonable to expect your hobby to treated as something more special then hobbies of siblings, grandparents and parents. It is reasonable for other family members to expect kid to participate on activities I mentioned no matter what their interests are.
Parents world revolve around children when they are danger to themselves due to young age or sickness or behavioral problems. It revolves around children for many unavoidable reasons, gaming not being one of them.
It is not reasonable to expect to be tiptoed around just because your choice of hobby. In fact, it is expected that parents teach this the kid.
> Is it really absurd to expect parents to show just a little bit of interest in their kids hobbies?
To be able to listen about it? Yes. To be participating? No. Just like with any other kids interest like collecting little pink ponies or memorizing flags.
If the kid cant organize the game (stop playing soon enough to be at time) while still participating in outside world, then the kid is not ready to play that game. If the kid is moody after playing game and generally pain in the ass, it is reasonable to stop accommodating gaming and dealing with the behavior the same way parents punish/criticize siblings acting that way for non-gaming reasons.
Actually, participation often ruins the hobby. If your dad is better then you at a game/sports its loosing its value to differentiate you from your siblings.
I remember my older brother saying, "it's like dungeons and dragons" when I asked my dad to buy Warcraft. That got the idea shut down immediately.
But later in the year I was quite insistent that it's not that bad. So my dad agreed to watch a bit. I played the first few levels of the demo for him. I still vividly remember him saying, "that's it?" And then we bought it later that week.
But later in the year I was quite insistent that it's not that bad. So my dad agreed to watch a bit. I played the first few levels of the demo for him. I still vividly remember him saying, "that's it?" And then we bought it later that week.
What's wrong with D&D?
No clue. Probably just a remnant of the D&D fear of the 80s. This was 1994 or around then. Whenever Warcraft came out.
Making an effort to learn about your child's interest in one of the most beneficial things you can do as a parent.
"But mom, the next check point is 8 levels ahead"
I try to think of it like they're playing in a physical room full of their friends. I wouldn't suddenly barge in and drag them out by the arm.
I remember many years ago trying to explain to my father that I can't "just quit" as there was someone else on the other side. He didn't believe me and took a few seconds to watch. This was a 1v1 style game (starcraft brood war). Typing out "hello" into the chat prompt was met with "shut the f--- up and play, fag" from my opponent. He was actually an online friend. I was maybe 12. My father got the picture, but he yanked out the dial up for a while.
Yeah it works both ways, I know what can and can't be saved so I know if you can pause immediately or not. If not, the end of the game is fine and if so I expect it to be paused PDQ. I also give 5 or 10 minute warnings so they dont start a new game.
I think most of the time you'll know when you'll need to interrupt them (e.g. dinner at a regular time). In that case, I'd say - be off by this time. They can learn to plan ahead and give themselves the needed headroom if they want to avoid the negative consequences.
Timers are key. I have a special needs kid, and timers are doubly needed. For now I just say "20m" set the kitchen timer and when it rings, all the kids have to e.g. come to dinner.
I wish there were some good method for kids to "earn" screen time (ie, parent could add/approve) that would be automatically deducted on usage of the device(s) (with blackout times where usage isn't possible).
I wish there were some good method for kids to "earn" screen time (ie, parent could add/approve) that would be automatically deducted on usage of the device(s) (with blackout times where usage isn't possible).
For iOS devices, Screen Time does that. My kids have iPads and I set certain hours they are allowed to be used at all, time limits per day, and if they run out of time they can ask for more and I can approve via my watch/phone. I set the daily time limit pretty low and then give them opportunities to earn a bit more, which I dynamically add to their total.
Almost done with this one last game of Civilization V mom.
I have 4 kids and they're all video game nerds. As the paternal geek myself I stood out in the rain last night so they can buy Smash Bros. Ultimate.
That being said, I have a simple approach that seems to work. They need to do something productive to earn playing time. That can be chores, homework, reading a book, a personal project, whatever. I also do a device-free day (usually Monday). The end result is they all get good grades and the encouragement to pursue other hobbies that enable their creative side.
That being said, I have a simple approach that seems to work. They need to do something productive to earn playing time. That can be chores, homework, reading a book, a personal project, whatever. I also do a device-free day (usually Monday). The end result is they all get good grades and the encouragement to pursue other hobbies that enable their creative side.
IMO, framing video games as a treat that has to be earned is likely the best parenting option surrounding video games.
Would you say the same for regular physical playtime? Or would you let your kids go outside and play/socialize anytime, as long as they had nothing else of more immediate importance? Why would video games be different?
Those are activities are much healthier uses of time. Video games suck up a lot of time with zero or negative physical benefits and low mental benefits.
Kids come up with their own outside activities. Computer games are often built to appeal and take advantage of our brain circuits (sometimes purposefully, other times accidentally), to which kids are especially suspectible.
Not that outside activities can't be harmful. Not sure how I managed to not get seriously hurt as a kid, considering some of my accidents and my stupidity in general.
Not that outside activities can't be harmful. Not sure how I managed to not get seriously hurt as a kid, considering some of my accidents and my stupidity in general.
We do a similar thing in our house. Game time happens after everything else has been done. We do make sure that it ends at least hour before bedtime, so the brain has some time to relax. One thing my son loves is that I spend some time each week watching him play or watching streamers/youtube with him. He loves that I'm interested in what he does and makes my monitoring of these things seem less "parental".
Step 1: Setup a pihole (https://pi-hole.net/)
Step 2: Configure home router to send _all_ port 53 (DNS traffic) to the pihole
Step 3: Run cronjob on the pihole to disable fortnite completely at whatever times you want, e.g., turn off access every week night at 7:30pm, then back on overnight:
30 19 * * 0-4 /home/pi/pihole_timed_lists/turn_blacklist_on >> /home/pi/pihole_timed_lists/log/turn_blocklist_on.log 2>&1
0 1 * * 1-5 /home/pi/pihole_timed_lists/turn_blacklist_off >> /home/pi/pihole_timed_lists/log/turn_blocklist_off.log 2>&1
The turn_blacklist_on script can be as simple as:
/usr/local/bin/pihole --wild epicgames.com easy.ac easyanticheat.net xboxlive.com microsoft.com
And then the turn blacklist off can be:
/usr/local/bin/pihole --wild -d epicgames.com easy.ac easyanticheat.net xboxlive.com microsoft.com
Works like a charm, and handles PC + XBox access. Kids know it stops dead at 7:30, so no arguments.
[edited for spelling]
Step 2: Configure home router to send _all_ port 53 (DNS traffic) to the pihole
Step 3: Run cronjob on the pihole to disable fortnite completely at whatever times you want, e.g., turn off access every week night at 7:30pm, then back on overnight:
30 19 * * 0-4 /home/pi/pihole_timed_lists/turn_blacklist_on >> /home/pi/pihole_timed_lists/log/turn_blocklist_on.log 2>&1
0 1 * * 1-5 /home/pi/pihole_timed_lists/turn_blacklist_off >> /home/pi/pihole_timed_lists/log/turn_blocklist_off.log 2>&1
The turn_blacklist_on script can be as simple as:
/usr/local/bin/pihole --wild epicgames.com easy.ac easyanticheat.net xboxlive.com microsoft.com
And then the turn blacklist off can be:
/usr/local/bin/pihole --wild -d epicgames.com easy.ac easyanticheat.net xboxlive.com microsoft.com
Works like a charm, and handles PC + XBox access. Kids know it stops dead at 7:30, so no arguments.
[edited for spelling]
In the good old days we'd just use ips to connect to irc, and then ask for server ips. Loved dns blocking because I still could do whatever I wanted.
There are commercial solutions as well, if you want a turnkey and/or multiuser solution.
Until they get a winning game ruined by a sudden net cutoff. Although that's probably not a big issue with Fortnite since expected game lengths should be fairly predictable (average seems to be 20-25 mins from what I've found) due to the encroaching wall thing. Would be cool though if it could recognize an ongoing game and cut off the connection only after the game is finished.
This should not cut off ongoing games, except maybe if the anticheat was implemented by morons.
I’m not sure it it’d even very reliably stop you from starting a new game, but I guess it probably works well enough.
I’m not sure it it’d even very reliably stop you from starting a new game, but I guess it probably works well enough.
I never liked the description of gaming as addictive, especially multiplayer games — I think its more of a special case of socialization with certain properties that naturally lend to poor outcomes
Its really not that difficult to spend 8 hours talking to a group of friends, especially when an activity is involved (book clubs, board game nights, hanging out, etc). There are two major limitations: external responsibilities break up the group, and eventually you get bored of the people/activity. An extra one that appears in things like sports is that you eventually get tired. If you didn’t, you could probably find groups playing soccer for a week straight and still enjoying it...
External responsibilities don’t really exist in any major form for kids.
Getting bored of a group of people in multiplayer games is trivially fixed: there’s almost no cost to finding another group, or having multiple simultaneously.
Getting physically tired doesn’t occur quickly with games: after about 5-8 hours my eyes/head start to hurt, but I’m a-ok after a night’s rest. Any weak member of your group is trivially replaced by point #2.
So the fatal flaw is the activity... and ofc thats where games have always optimized for — remaining engaging over long durations. But all hobbies naturally optimize for this (else they wouldn’t really be hobbies!)
Which all leads to it being really easy to stay on a game all day long, without being “addicted” to it.
At least, that was my experience. Put some 1k hrs into league of legends per year when I was younger... but the day I dropped it, I dropped it without a second’s hesitation. No withdrawal or anything, I was simply finished with it (half the reason I played it so much is that I had few RL friends, so activity-wise I didn’t have anything better to do, and socialization-wise, that was where all my friends were).
I think the common case is very similar to friends made over sports, but video games have properties that lend themselves to addiction-like behavior without actually creating an actual dependency.
Its really not that difficult to spend 8 hours talking to a group of friends, especially when an activity is involved (book clubs, board game nights, hanging out, etc). There are two major limitations: external responsibilities break up the group, and eventually you get bored of the people/activity. An extra one that appears in things like sports is that you eventually get tired. If you didn’t, you could probably find groups playing soccer for a week straight and still enjoying it...
External responsibilities don’t really exist in any major form for kids.
Getting bored of a group of people in multiplayer games is trivially fixed: there’s almost no cost to finding another group, or having multiple simultaneously.
Getting physically tired doesn’t occur quickly with games: after about 5-8 hours my eyes/head start to hurt, but I’m a-ok after a night’s rest. Any weak member of your group is trivially replaced by point #2.
So the fatal flaw is the activity... and ofc thats where games have always optimized for — remaining engaging over long durations. But all hobbies naturally optimize for this (else they wouldn’t really be hobbies!)
Which all leads to it being really easy to stay on a game all day long, without being “addicted” to it.
At least, that was my experience. Put some 1k hrs into league of legends per year when I was younger... but the day I dropped it, I dropped it without a second’s hesitation. No withdrawal or anything, I was simply finished with it (half the reason I played it so much is that I had few RL friends, so activity-wise I didn’t have anything better to do, and socialization-wise, that was where all my friends were).
I think the common case is very similar to friends made over sports, but video games have properties that lend themselves to addiction-like behavior without actually creating an actual dependency.
My 10yo and 6yo rarely get screen time and when they do it's for something productive and not mind numbing like gaming or Youtube. Every day that goes by with them being relatively screen-free is a win in my book. They get to be kids - lots of activity outside the house and lots of creativity inside, music, acting, painting. It's hard though as most of their classmates are screen zombies. I just don't understand how most parents don't see this so clearly.
As a parent, I've never understood this sentiment. Gaming is just another "activity" and to say it's "mind numbing" and not productive is disingenuous. Sure, it can be depending on the game, but so can acting and painting and any other activities that kids do.
Are you a gamer? I play PUBG, I used to play other games. Multiplayer online Games with a competitive aspect trigger my buttons. They can be very rewarding. They provide a constant release of dopamine.
I can’t think of any other activity that comes close to gaming in that regard. Most stuff gets boring after a while. Sure, you can dive in a book and come back two days later when it’s finished. But after doing this a couple times, it gets boring rather quickly.
With gaming, especially never ending competitive online games, one can easily sink hundreds or thousands of hours.
So, as a gamer being honest with myself: I will restrict video game time and media consumption of my kids, because they don’t know yet how to deal with these immense dopamine triggers.
I can’t think of any other activity that comes close to gaming in that regard. Most stuff gets boring after a while. Sure, you can dive in a book and come back two days later when it’s finished. But after doing this a couple times, it gets boring rather quickly.
With gaming, especially never ending competitive online games, one can easily sink hundreds or thousands of hours.
So, as a gamer being honest with myself: I will restrict video game time and media consumption of my kids, because they don’t know yet how to deal with these immense dopamine triggers.
That's not true at all. I'm a gamer and I LOVE reading books and I removed "pleasure books" (non self improvement books) because they actively disrupt my life much harder than games.
My favorite book series is 14 beefy books (800 pages some of them), I started reading them when 9 were out.
I read the first 9 in 1-2 months, doing ONLY THAT because I loved it so much. Same goes for the previous book series I read (I was 12 at the time, so my memories are not as solid).
I can play games for long hours, but I never end up in that same state where I don't do anything else for an entire month. Sure, there have been a few days where I played all day, but never months.
And I stopped playing games without looking back when I stopped liking them, or when I figured out they were bad for me (mmorpgs especially)
My favorite book series is 14 beefy books (800 pages some of them), I started reading them when 9 were out.
I read the first 9 in 1-2 months, doing ONLY THAT because I loved it so much. Same goes for the previous book series I read (I was 12 at the time, so my memories are not as solid).
I can play games for long hours, but I never end up in that same state where I don't do anything else for an entire month. Sure, there have been a few days where I played all day, but never months.
And I stopped playing games without looking back when I stopped liking them, or when I figured out they were bad for me (mmorpgs especially)
Yes, I am a gamer, and my wife plays occasionally too. We set limits on our kids gaming and use it as a tool for rewarding good behavior. We created a “real life battlepass” for our older kid where he gets 4 weekly challenges (chores, non-gaming learning objectives, etc.) that have to be completed by certain times in order to earn gaming time. We let him come up with one additional challenge that is non-gaming related and then another gaming related challenge (e.g. 5 eliminations in a game of Fortnite). This is all in addition to the normal expectations of keeping your room clean, school work, etc.
Managing their exposure to this type of media is important. They’re going to be exposed to it, and they enjoy it, so instead of fighting it we found a middle ground where we all win.
Managing their exposure to this type of media is important. They’re going to be exposed to it, and they enjoy it, so instead of fighting it we found a middle ground where we all win.
Agreed. In another comment, someone points out that LoL/Dota2 require a lot of dedication and metagame analysis to be good.
Which is true, but doesn't change the fact that I look back at all gaming I did as a massive waste of time, wishing I spent even 10% of that time doing anything else. And even in my early 20s, I couldn't get out of that "just one more game" compulsion many nights and it would impact my work performance and social life. Not really something I want for my children.
I'm in my 30s now and have healthy hobbies again like language learning, reading, and drawing.
I have a feeling a lot of these "gaming are no different than reading or playing a sport" are from young HN gamers. I would've argued the same thing when I was a kid. Not til later did I start wanting to live my life to maximize my sense of fulfillment and minimize regret, and I have a hard time believing gaming does that for anyone.
Which is true, but doesn't change the fact that I look back at all gaming I did as a massive waste of time, wishing I spent even 10% of that time doing anything else. And even in my early 20s, I couldn't get out of that "just one more game" compulsion many nights and it would impact my work performance and social life. Not really something I want for my children.
I'm in my 30s now and have healthy hobbies again like language learning, reading, and drawing.
I have a feeling a lot of these "gaming are no different than reading or playing a sport" are from young HN gamers. I would've argued the same thing when I was a kid. Not til later did I start wanting to live my life to maximize my sense of fulfillment and minimize regret, and I have a hard time believing gaming does that for anyone.
I realize it on and off. I go through periods where I binge games (I've always been a handheld fan, so 3DS and now Switch) and then I won't play for weeks, while I do other hobbies. I definitely notice a vast difference between when I'm playing games and when I'm not. When playing, I just want to do one more, one more, and even see the game in my head when not playing, or think about metastrategy. Thankfully, it hasn't impacted my life, but I definitely don't want any kids I might have dealing with that until they're able...Though I'll definitely introduce them to games, just keep it limited.
Sort of... gaming is fairly structured play. Unstructured play for younger children, especially creative play with others, is developmentally advantageous.
Gaming isn't "Bad" -- I'm a game developer as well as a parent -- but it's probably a bit over simplified to suggest that it's just another activity. It's not better or worse than painting, for example, but it's important to recognize that it is characteristically different and as a parent it's your responsibility to be intentional about how those differences impact your family.
Gaming isn't "Bad" -- I'm a game developer as well as a parent -- but it's probably a bit over simplified to suggest that it's just another activity. It's not better or worse than painting, for example, but it's important to recognize that it is characteristically different and as a parent it's your responsibility to be intentional about how those differences impact your family.
The anti-screen sentiment today is like the anti-dungeons and dragons hysteria of the 80s. Back then, D&D would turn your kids into occultists. Today, “screens” will turn your kids into mindless zombies. Some things don’t change.
This generation of parents were pretty much all gamers, D&Ders, and so on. It's not for a lack of understanding. I even play many of the same games as my son and even try to get involved in the ones that don't really appeal to me.
But there is something off about kids right now is affecting them in disturbing ways (to a parent). The change is also been really rapid; it was different even 10 years ago.
It seems to me like a large number of parents seem to be struggling with it.
But there is something off about kids right now is affecting them in disturbing ways (to a parent). The change is also been really rapid; it was different even 10 years ago.
It seems to me like a large number of parents seem to be struggling with it.
I remember my time as a kid - it was spent creating on a computer, because it was the only thing you could do. There was nothing to consume.
Today's primary use of devices by children is consuming (Games, videos, etc) and not creating.
I think we have to get back to creating.
Today's primary use of devices by children is consuming (Games, videos, etc) and not creating.
I think we have to get back to creating.
How old are you? By the time I was in my teens, there was always more games, BBSes, etc. Perhaps the fact that all those things were harder to come by was an advantage but I certainly did spent my whole day on the computer creating.
Haha, I think we're close in age, my teens had BBSes and IRC too. Wasted a lot of time in a good way.
The connectedness during the early "broad" internet generations in the mid to late 90's was really special. I'm probably not alone in still having some of those friendships to this day.
I spent part of my teens on apple, atari st's and then PCs. Creating with multiple platforms is something I'm very thankful for.
Games were evolving but had limited power, the imagination was still better graphics. The recent story about the Sierra source code was cool. Online gaming wasn't fast enough, and so other forms of interaction took the day.
There's lots of tools today to build games, it doesn't seem a rite of passage anymore to try and write a game or animate something.. Instead it's writing a todo app today.
The connectedness during the early "broad" internet generations in the mid to late 90's was really special. I'm probably not alone in still having some of those friendships to this day.
I spent part of my teens on apple, atari st's and then PCs. Creating with multiple platforms is something I'm very thankful for.
Games were evolving but had limited power, the imagination was still better graphics. The recent story about the Sierra source code was cool. Online gaming wasn't fast enough, and so other forms of interaction took the day.
There's lots of tools today to build games, it doesn't seem a rite of passage anymore to try and write a game or animate something.. Instead it's writing a todo app today.
>They get to be kids - lots of activity outside the house and lots of creativity inside, music, acting, painting. It's hard though as most of their classmates are screen zombies.
Why do you consider things like painting, acting, and music "creative" things, but not gaming?
When I was around 10 years old I was playing Command and Conquer pretty much every moment I could get. I was creating worlds, coming up with my own "metagames", abusing the minimap to draw things in the game. Hell I'm pretty sure I even made up my own story line because I either didn't care about or didn't understand the real one. Even when I was older playing World of Warcraft or any other number of games, it was an experience exploring worlds, creating things, and socializing with friends.
When I've seen younger family members playing Minecraft, or Halo, and even Fortnite, I'd argue that it's an extremely creative activity, especially when they are playing with friends online in it.
I'm not going to say that constant screens are a good thing, but in moderation (like just about everything), I think they can be a fantastic outlet and an awesome canvas for kids to grow up with.
Why do you consider things like painting, acting, and music "creative" things, but not gaming?
When I was around 10 years old I was playing Command and Conquer pretty much every moment I could get. I was creating worlds, coming up with my own "metagames", abusing the minimap to draw things in the game. Hell I'm pretty sure I even made up my own story line because I either didn't care about or didn't understand the real one. Even when I was older playing World of Warcraft or any other number of games, it was an experience exploring worlds, creating things, and socializing with friends.
When I've seen younger family members playing Minecraft, or Halo, and even Fortnite, I'd argue that it's an extremely creative activity, especially when they are playing with friends online in it.
I'm not going to say that constant screens are a good thing, but in moderation (like just about everything), I think they can be a fantastic outlet and an awesome canvas for kids to grow up with.
Video games, esp. the ones that kids are into, are consumer items - they are made so that the experience is always relatively easy and rewarding. Pursuing hobbies such as drawing or playing an instrument requires much higher level of dedication, which is great for building character. Games in moderation can be for some entertainment and escapism in an otherwise balanced life, but let's not forget what they truly are - a chewing gum for the mind.
Plenty of games require significant dedication. Mobas like DOTA and league of legends are immensely competitive, and have deep and intricate metagames. Simulation racing games are at least comparable to motorsport. Kerbal Space Program taught me more about space craft than any class or book.
Ultimately games are no different than any other medium. Like books, you've got your Twilights and you've got your The Old Man and the Sea. Like film you've got your Transformers and you've got The Godfather.
Ultimately games are no different than any other medium. Like books, you've got your Twilights and you've got your The Old Man and the Sea. Like film you've got your Transformers and you've got The Godfather.
It depends on the game. Some are junk food and some are nutrient dense. There's a huge difference between Candy Crush and Kerbal Space Program, for example.
Plus games are often inspiration for learning programming, design, art, music, writing. Video games are a combination of all these.
Plus games are often inspiration for learning programming, design, art, music, writing. Video games are a combination of all these.
Out of curiosity, how do you enforce this? What are your parenting techniques to steer them away from screens? How do you have your kids choose music over Minecraft, painting over Fortnite, acting over Youtube? How does the screen not win in those situations? I would be interested reading your insights. I think many parents see it as clearly as you do, but don't have the same success.
It all comes from the home.
For example, as parents we make every effort not to be on our phones around the kids. Some kids truly believe they are competing with a mobile device for their parents' attention, it's quite sad.
Second, we just do fun stuff. Over time they just developed the innate desire to be active and not be dumbed down by screen time. It's just nature. Why would a kid prefer to sit on a couch and stare at an iPad when they can run wild in the backyard or be active as a gymnist or at theater? Screen zombie is a learned behavior, I feel like it is usually a result of uninvolved parents.
Lastly, just don't have the screens at home. We don't have a TV. How is my kid going to be addicted to a TV without... hmm, a TV? Same goes for other screens.
Start young... our kids also eat healthy. At this point they know to politely refuse unhealthy snacks, candy, etc. at playdates and other social events. They know they're not really missing out on much. When they do "splurge" and eat crap, they feel like crap. Our kids are very in tune with their bodies, physical and mental state. Just because other kids play Fortnite, do I need to give in as a parent? No. Same goes for dietary restrictions and other choices parents have.
For example, as parents we make every effort not to be on our phones around the kids. Some kids truly believe they are competing with a mobile device for their parents' attention, it's quite sad.
Second, we just do fun stuff. Over time they just developed the innate desire to be active and not be dumbed down by screen time. It's just nature. Why would a kid prefer to sit on a couch and stare at an iPad when they can run wild in the backyard or be active as a gymnist or at theater? Screen zombie is a learned behavior, I feel like it is usually a result of uninvolved parents.
Lastly, just don't have the screens at home. We don't have a TV. How is my kid going to be addicted to a TV without... hmm, a TV? Same goes for other screens.
Start young... our kids also eat healthy. At this point they know to politely refuse unhealthy snacks, candy, etc. at playdates and other social events. They know they're not really missing out on much. When they do "splurge" and eat crap, they feel like crap. Our kids are very in tune with their bodies, physical and mental state. Just because other kids play Fortnite, do I need to give in as a parent? No. Same goes for dietary restrictions and other choices parents have.
So are their classmates who are screen zombies in any measurable way worse off on average than your kids?
While I certainly think exercise is important, what is the perceived harm of "too much" screen time?
While I certainly think exercise is important, what is the perceived harm of "too much" screen time?
From my observation, definitely. They lack social skills, common sense, empathy, have little tolerance for idle/down time, and are physically (and emotionally) weaker and often have excess weight. Their maturity level is also lower and they stress easily due to not having a healthy amount of coping skills for real life scenarios.
I knew people on both college and high school playing overnights, going to tests sleep deprived and then failing or having trouble to pass. It had impact on their grades, jobs and relationships (whether with girlfriend, family or friends).
I don't know people who would sleep deprive themselves to the same level due to drawing, reading, sport or craft.
I don't know people who would sleep deprive themselves to the same level due to drawing, reading, sport or craft.
This reminds me of the kids I knew growing up whose parents gave them little to no freedom. They always ended up being the craziest when parents weren't around.
It's funny, sometimes we think our kids have TOO much freedom. They are in a montessori school, so right off the bat they have much more freedom than most kids in a standard school in terms of what they learn and choices throughout the school day. Then at home they are free to explore and take part in anything that interests them. We don't limit the activities because of money - they are in soccer, theater, gymnastics, hocky, rock climbing, painting, and more. When they're not glued to a screen - they have so much free time.
> We don't limit the activities because of money
But you do limit their activities? They're in theater? Imagine some of the amazing storytelling they're missing out on in video games simply because of the medium in which the story is told. The same for painting. If it wasn't for my love of video games and Neopets, I never would have picked up Photoshop and started making graphics for other people I met on forums when I was a kid even if I was glued to a screen.
They also play sports. Plenty of parallel lessons you could learn in competitive video gaming that doesn't carry as much of a stigma as something like chess or even less physical, traditional sports.
But you do limit their activities? They're in theater? Imagine some of the amazing storytelling they're missing out on in video games simply because of the medium in which the story is told. The same for painting. If it wasn't for my love of video games and Neopets, I never would have picked up Photoshop and started making graphics for other people I met on forums when I was a kid even if I was glued to a screen.
They also play sports. Plenty of parallel lessons you could learn in competitive video gaming that doesn't carry as much of a stigma as something like chess or even less physical, traditional sports.
The negative reaction to your comment is surprising. The difference between "screen zombie children" and children with limited screen time is striking and not difficult to observe or quantify. The difference is clear in our own children based on our current family rules, and of course evident in their various friends.
Those asking you for "evidence" that the screen zombie children are worse off are either 1. not parents, 2. parents of screen zombie children, or perhaps 3. experiencing something much different than what I've encountered.
When my children play video games, especially to excess, they experience something similar to the "brain fog" I experience when I am tired, my diet is off, etc. They also are notably more distracted, selfish and generally unruly. My hypothesis is that this is due to dopamine withdrawal causing their brainpower to be devoted to thoughts about gaming.
Those asking you for "evidence" that the screen zombie children are worse off are either 1. not parents, 2. parents of screen zombie children, or perhaps 3. experiencing something much different than what I've encountered.
When my children play video games, especially to excess, they experience something similar to the "brain fog" I experience when I am tired, my diet is off, etc. They also are notably more distracted, selfish and generally unruly. My hypothesis is that this is due to dopamine withdrawal causing their brainpower to be devoted to thoughts about gaming.
I think it's erroneous to assume that being a "screen zombie" is inherently non-productive. I played a shitload of games in K-12. Probably several hours per day. But my parents didn't care as long as I kept taking the hardest honors and AP classes and getting a 4.0. My "screen zombie" time got me interested in modding games and evetually making games. This, in turn, helped me discover a passion for software development which had brought me the immense benefit of being employed in a field that is both lucrative and enjoyable for me. If I wasn't a "screen zombie" I may well have ended up worse off as a result, and I can see why people may come off as defensive when parents judge children that use technology heavily because it's also juding the childhood that a lot of said parents grew up in.
Ultimately I reserve judgement of parents as long as their kids are maturing reasonably. A variety of parenting choices means a variety of perspectives and experiences in adulthood.
Ultimately I reserve judgement of parents as long as their kids are maturing reasonably. A variety of parenting choices means a variety of perspectives and experiences in adulthood.
So you think you would have not been successful as a software developer if your video game time was limited to 2hrs/day?
Nor that you might have been able to use that time to develop physical fitness or other life skills?
Nor that you might have been able to use that time to develop physical fitness or other life skills?
Well, 2 hours a day is probably close to what I averaged when I was a kid. So it probably wouldn't have changed anything - but only because a 2 hour a week limit wouldn't actually change my time spent on gaming by a significant degree. 2 hours a day is still a lot, it's 14 hours a week. About twice what most kids spend on homework.
If video game time were limited more substantially, I doubt I would have suffered directly. However I may have not found my passion for technology. If nothing else, this would have significantly reduced my economic opportunities. Not many other industries were someone under 25 can expect to make over $200k (including equity, mind you). True, money doesn't buy happiness of self-worth. Financial instability is a common cause of unhappiness and economic power better equips people to find happiness. So in that sense video games unlocked a passion that has allowed my employment to be both fun and lucrative.
As far as physical fitness, it doesn't take much to stay in shape at least for me. I'm not overweight (~170lb, 6'2"), I can run decently well (~5 miles in an hour). Sure, if I spent my time playing video games at the gym I could be much more muscular. But I'm not really sure how that level of fitness would significantly improve my life. My strength is sufficient for essentially all the activities I encounter. I suppose it'd make me more physically attractive, but I'm content with the degree to which women are attracted to me already.
I also can't really think of any life skills that I really lack. My dad was pretty handy and passed off a lot of those skills to me. Time spent on gaming didn't inhibit this. Heck if anything it augmented it: e.g. I wanted to lay down Ethernet cable to the game room to play Xbox live so my Dad had me run the cables through the crawlspace and taught me the basics of what modems, routers, and switches are and what they do. That plus other life skills like basic carpentry, changing cars and motorcycles' oil, brake pads, spark plugs.
Socially, games also helped me considerably. Making friends with other gamers helped me build a circle of friends that mostly shared the same passion for technology. We helped each other explore that interest, most of them also gravitated towards STEM fields. Academically, games didn't help but it certainly didn't hurt either. I always put academics first, and took something like 10 AP classes and got a near 4.0 GPA.
I suppose life could be better if I dedicated all my video game time towards learning programming and software development. But that's essentially relying on the power of retrospect. I didn't find my passion for computer technology until I dove so deep into gaming that I entered modding and amateur game dev circles.
Ultimately no one can really know what my life would have been like if I placed my time spent on gaming towards something else. But I do know that it played a pivotal role in helping me find a subject that is both interesting to me and pays very well. That's something that I'm incredibly fortunate to have, and it's not certain I would have found the same success if it weren't for the role video games played in my life.
If video game time were limited more substantially, I doubt I would have suffered directly. However I may have not found my passion for technology. If nothing else, this would have significantly reduced my economic opportunities. Not many other industries were someone under 25 can expect to make over $200k (including equity, mind you). True, money doesn't buy happiness of self-worth. Financial instability is a common cause of unhappiness and economic power better equips people to find happiness. So in that sense video games unlocked a passion that has allowed my employment to be both fun and lucrative.
As far as physical fitness, it doesn't take much to stay in shape at least for me. I'm not overweight (~170lb, 6'2"), I can run decently well (~5 miles in an hour). Sure, if I spent my time playing video games at the gym I could be much more muscular. But I'm not really sure how that level of fitness would significantly improve my life. My strength is sufficient for essentially all the activities I encounter. I suppose it'd make me more physically attractive, but I'm content with the degree to which women are attracted to me already.
I also can't really think of any life skills that I really lack. My dad was pretty handy and passed off a lot of those skills to me. Time spent on gaming didn't inhibit this. Heck if anything it augmented it: e.g. I wanted to lay down Ethernet cable to the game room to play Xbox live so my Dad had me run the cables through the crawlspace and taught me the basics of what modems, routers, and switches are and what they do. That plus other life skills like basic carpentry, changing cars and motorcycles' oil, brake pads, spark plugs.
Socially, games also helped me considerably. Making friends with other gamers helped me build a circle of friends that mostly shared the same passion for technology. We helped each other explore that interest, most of them also gravitated towards STEM fields. Academically, games didn't help but it certainly didn't hurt either. I always put academics first, and took something like 10 AP classes and got a near 4.0 GPA.
I suppose life could be better if I dedicated all my video game time towards learning programming and software development. But that's essentially relying on the power of retrospect. I didn't find my passion for computer technology until I dove so deep into gaming that I entered modding and amateur game dev circles.
Ultimately no one can really know what my life would have been like if I placed my time spent on gaming towards something else. But I do know that it played a pivotal role in helping me find a subject that is both interesting to me and pays very well. That's something that I'm incredibly fortunate to have, and it's not certain I would have found the same success if it weren't for the role video games played in my life.
What's your experience with your kid's friends? If they hang out or sleep over at their house, they will play video games.
I also question the need to always be productive. Do your kids ever get downtime? Some of my favorite childhood memories are watching movies with my family or playing games with my friends or brother.
I also question the need to always be productive. Do your kids ever get downtime? Some of my favorite childhood memories are watching movies with my family or playing games with my friends or brother.
We're lucky enough to have friends that pretty much have a similar parenting style, so it's not an issue, but yes, some kids that come to our house are "bored" because we don't have a screen or video games or any of that. They (the other kids) don't know how to be a kid anymore (in terms of playing outside, playing board games, etc.), which stresses them out. It's quite sad actually.
And yes, they get plenty of downtime. We don't force any activity on them or force them to be "productive". Anything really that they do is more productive than playing a video game - even sitting in the backyard staring at the sky.
And yes, they get plenty of downtime. We don't force any activity on them or force them to be "productive". Anything really that they do is more productive than playing a video game - even sitting in the backyard staring at the sky.
Would like to have written this game. My kid is completely 'in' Fortnite. Going to full-day (bilingual) school next year just to make sure he has something better to do every afternoon than playing.
I'm not trying to be a troll, but really - how are you ok with this as a parent? Why are you allowing this?
Does full-day mean until 5pm? Is it sports in that time or are they really in classes that late?
Not even 5pm, actually. It is interwined with sports, 'classes' like cooking, etc.
That's great that you're sending him to a bilingual school! I wish I had the opportunity when I was a child.
my kids are in a dual language program at their elementary. Honestly, it's just ESL for the latino kids. There's hardly any emphasis on teaching English speaking kids Spanish. It's more for the non-english kids getting to have class taught in Spanish for half a day. I don't really care, my kids are thriving just fine, but it's not a dual language program it's ESL in disguise.
(I live in Dallas)
(I live in Dallas)
Then how are your kids passing their classes taught in Spanish, if they aren't learning any Spanish?
I think the point of highlighting the fact that this is an ESL class, meaning it is geared towards helping Spanish speaking kids learn English, is to imply that most instruction is in English but the instructors fall back on Spanish when necessary. Only one class per day was taught exclusively in Spanish. So his or her kids are getting exposure and limited instruction in Spanish, but it isn't full immersion. At least, that's how ESL worked when I was in school - I invite the above commenter to correct this is it is not correct.
That's cool but it's not what the parent poster described ("half a day of Spanish").
It's weird to say that learning Spanish is bad because Spanish speaking kids are getting too much value from learning English, like it's some sort of competition.
It's weird to say that learning Spanish is bad because Spanish speaking kids are getting too much value from learning English, like it's some sort of competition.
It's not terribly clear to what the person is responding. What set this off?
> (2) set a timer & provide consistent consequences (without anger) when they go over..13/N
I think this has been effective, w/my kids at least.
> (2) set a timer & provide consistent consequences (without anger) when they go over..13/N
I think this has been effective, w/my kids at least.
its very effective an it teach a bit of responsability, my kids are still very young and only have access to a switch and each have a 30 min timer (can be set on the switch parental control app) that just rings to let them know, but as they have to share and want to play uninterrupted they plan their day for that meaning when they grab the switch now days they make sure im not going to ask for anything becouse all thir daily routines are done.
Blaming social ills on poor parenting does absolutely nothing to help matters and is thinly-veiled classism. Only well-off people can afford to raise their kids as well as is expected of them.
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The article recommends using a timer to limit Fortnite. Assuming the family in question can afford a computer and internet connection, a timer hardly seems a reach, cost wise.
Can you connect that to your points affordability, expectations, or classism for me?
Can you connect that to your points affordability, expectations, or classism for me?
When I was a kid, I would sneak out of my room at 3 in the morning to play Diablo. There's not a whole lot parents can do to police kids' online activities who have a burning need to do what they want to do despite parental involvement. At some point you're fighting a war using the most precious resources you have against an adversary that has an endless supply of them.
I did the same thing to grind levels in Runescape and I look back with regret, getting <4 hours of sleep during an important developmental stage in my life.
My parents didn't even suspect that I'd do such a thing. But they could've trivially stopped it. If they knew I was doing it, they would've removed the computer from the game room. Luckily for my kids, I know how addicting gaming can be unlike my parents did back then.
I don't really know what you're trying to say. Kids have almost zero resources. If they have an internet-connected device they can use 24/7, it's because you got them one and you let them.
Kids do have more disposable time than parents do, but that's also why kids are so good at creatively filling the void when they can't just turn on their dopamine machine. When I was bored at my grandma's house without electronics, that's when I learned to draw, a hobby I've taken into my 30s.
My parents didn't even suspect that I'd do such a thing. But they could've trivially stopped it. If they knew I was doing it, they would've removed the computer from the game room. Luckily for my kids, I know how addicting gaming can be unlike my parents did back then.
I don't really know what you're trying to say. Kids have almost zero resources. If they have an internet-connected device they can use 24/7, it's because you got them one and you let them.
Kids do have more disposable time than parents do, but that's also why kids are so good at creatively filling the void when they can't just turn on their dopamine machine. When I was bored at my grandma's house without electronics, that's when I learned to draw, a hobby I've taken into my 30s.
There isn't just the cost of a timer, there's also the time and effort that needs to be spent policing your child's screen time. Many families don't have a parent around the house a lot of the time.
It is free and easy to simply not buy your kid a screen, or take away the one you gave them.
The main "benefit" to parents of screens is that it's a cheap bad babysitter that shuts kids up.
The main "benefit" to parents of screens is that it's a cheap bad babysitter that shuts kids up.
It seems like we're all agreed that unmonitored, free-for-all access for kids onto computers or phones is risky and potentially unhealthy.
Where I am confused is - what might make that hard to govern?
I fully appreciate that the tools 20-30 years ago were not where they are today. But now?
Where I am confused is - what might make that hard to govern?
I fully appreciate that the tools 20-30 years ago were not where they are today. But now?
My kids get to use the internet from 6am to 7:30. Google wifi automatically turns it on and off.
They need to be completely ready for school before they can play otherwise they dont get to play the next day.
This has resulted in
1) I never have to wake them up or tell them to get ready
2) they go to bed early at night on their own so they can get up early to play.
They are 11 and 6.
They need to be completely ready for school before they can play otherwise they dont get to play the next day.
This has resulted in
1) I never have to wake them up or tell them to get ready
2) they go to bed early at night on their own so they can get up early to play.
They are 11 and 6.
Lol! That's amazing, good job!
I want to conduct scientific studies on the quality of parenting and the likeliness of said parent to complain about [violence in video games, ant-vaccinations, etc.].
If it finds correlation, then this study motivates people to not complain about these repeatedly disproven parenting pitfalls, because complaining would make you "more likely" to be a bad parent.
If it finds correlation, then this study motivates people to not complain about these repeatedly disproven parenting pitfalls, because complaining would make you "more likely" to be a bad parent.
Please do that study.
Although you could show a negative or positive correlation. Maybe your study shows that the best parents complain about video games. Maybe it shows nothing.
We won’t know until you share the outcome. I think it will be cool to know.
Although you could show a negative or positive correlation. Maybe your study shows that the best parents complain about video games. Maybe it shows nothing.
We won’t know until you share the outcome. I think it will be cool to know.
this looks like a paid article from some involved party, saying calling it addiction is too much as there is no data backing it up triggers a lot of alarms to me as Gaming addiction is now officially recognized as mental health disorder by the World Health Organization.
The article is threading a needle, saying that games aren't bad, but parents who let kids play games too much are bad.
As someone who knows some Fortnite-playing kids, I'll say that even if it isn't creating murderers, it is teaching obnoxious behaviors like those taunt-dances and (offline) playing pretend-war in the faces of people who aren't interested.
An avid Fortine-playing 9 yr-old tends to be more annoying in person than a 2-D sidescroller player or even a Minecraft player.
As someone who knows some Fortnite-playing kids, I'll say that even if it isn't creating murderers, it is teaching obnoxious behaviors like those taunt-dances and (offline) playing pretend-war in the faces of people who aren't interested.
An avid Fortine-playing 9 yr-old tends to be more annoying in person than a 2-D sidescroller player or even a Minecraft player.
Maybe the annoying kids just like Fortnite more and the less annoying kids are prone to Minecraft?
Or the pace amd style of the game encourages annoying traits, or at least makes them seem more normal.
that's normal for almost any kid and not specific to gaming at all, they do with everything they see, mimicking is a form of learning.
I don't agree though with the part that the game is not bad.. fornite was no accident at all anyone who thinks that may not understand the cost of developing a products like that. they are deliveridly targeting people that easyly get addicted.
this is the same argument made with lootboxes.
note saying the game is not to be blame, is not an excuse to bad parenting, is just that the makers also have a bit of responsibility when they exploiting a known social behavior for cash.
I don't agree though with the part that the game is not bad.. fornite was no accident at all anyone who thinks that may not understand the cost of developing a products like that. they are deliveridly targeting people that easyly get addicted.
this is the same argument made with lootboxes.
note saying the game is not to be blame, is not an excuse to bad parenting, is just that the makers also have a bit of responsibility when they exploiting a known social behavior for cash.
> that's normal for almost any kid and not specific to gaming at all, they do with everything they see, mimicking is a form of learning.
What is specific to gaming is social approval by culture. When you go to most sport club or hobby club, eventually adults stop that crap or voice disapproval. Not in every club and adults do swear etc. But, in the straight assholery tend to eventually be criticized and talked about.
Gaming culture does not really do that.
What is specific to gaming is social approval by culture. When you go to most sport club or hobby club, eventually adults stop that crap or voice disapproval. Not in every club and adults do swear etc. But, in the straight assholery tend to eventually be criticized and talked about.
Gaming culture does not really do that.
Like this guy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84EjlkrtnQ4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84EjlkrtnQ4
You do know it is just a series of tweets, right?
https://twitter.com/PlayNiceInst/status/1070750717671919616
https://twitter.com/PlayNiceInst/status/1070750717671919616
Am I the only one who thinks that threader usually makes these harder to read? It's really obvious that this text wasn't intended to be consumed in this format.
We changed to the Twitter URL from https://threader.app/thread/1070750717671919616.
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I must say: I don't think I could, without shame, say that it's somebody else's fault when a piece of software on a computer I gave my own child consumes their attention.
If your kids spend too much time playing Fortnite, stop them from playing it so much.
If your kids spend too much time playing Fortnite, stop them from playing it so much.
On a semi-related note. When I was a kid my parents used to make us quit our gaming session with little to no warning. This wasn't a big issue with single player games because they can be saved/paused, but that's obviously not possible with online multiplayer games. Unfortunately, that didn't matter to them, and it resulted in many interrupted gaming sessions and unnecessary consequences and behavioral issues from me and my siblings.
Now that I'm a parent, I've made a promise to my kids that I will always let them finish their current game before kicking them off. If they start a new game after they've been given the last game warning, then there's consequences. They know this, and we rarely have any issues related to behavior and gaming.