Alibaba founder defends overtime work culture as 'huge blessing'(reuters.com)
reuters.com
Alibaba founder defends overtime work culture as 'huge blessing'
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-tech-labour/alibaba-founder-defends-overtime-work-culture-as-huge-blessing-idUSKCN1RO1BC
43 comments
It is indeed a "huge blessing." A "huge blessing" for the owners of companies who are able to use "culture" as an excuse for the exploitation of workers. The upside of this exploitation only ever accrues to owners, never to employees, and the vast majority of employees, even in tech / startups, don't own any equity in the companies they work for, so there's really no excuse for this kind of nonsense to be taken seriously.
Can someone explain to me how it is a blessing to work 996. He literally says "If you don't work 996 when you are young, when can you ever work 996". This makes no sense at all. Why would anyone ever want to work 996. Lets burn our youth on this BS for what future promise Mr.Ma.
Its because Jack Ma still sees his company as it was in the startup days where the objective was out-competing anybody (even Western tech companies) through creativity, brutal price-cutting and sheer mental and time overload. These are qualities he attributes to people in their youth who can burn the midnight oil for their dream. It is also built on top of East Asian exploitative/"hard-work brings success" work culture.
In China, some employers (who probably still living in 17 century) sees giving out offer and salary is some kind of blessing.
So apparently Jack Ma sees his company as some holy saint who give those poor farmland programmers food, water and life.
So apparently Jack Ma sees his company as some holy saint who give those poor farmland programmers food, water and life.
It is a blessing to Ma only.
I'm also guessing he means if you are older .... probably can't work for him.
I can assure you one must look busy, but actually being busy is a whole different matter. It's simply a matter showing hours in front of your boss and their boss, not showing accomplishments. Worse off, if you do work efficiently, accomplish your tasks, and leave at 5pm, you will lose respect amongst your peers and boss. Source: I worked for Alibaba.
Not being able to leave if you work well and are done by 5 sucks no matter what. But can you do other things especially in the last 1/3 of the day when I assume people will be more tired? Or if you’re not really working, is your only real option to just lose that time entirely?
“Let me ask everyone, if you don’t put out more time and energy than others, how can you achieve the success you want?”
To be fair, Ma worked 996 when he started his own company, which is different from being forced to do so because you can't find a developer job that doesn't require you to work 996.
To be fair, Ma worked 996 when he started his own company, which is different from being forced to do so because you can't find a developer job that doesn't require you to work 996.
Agreed. This kind of unadulterated competition is a race to the bottom for their employees. Nevermind that it's almost certainly counter-productive and that they'll just be pushing a bunch of already burned-out employees who'll inevitably be making tired mistakes and developing outright resentment for their paymasters.
Ma did so knowing the potential upside was becoming a billionaire. How many of these workers can say that?
Do not listen to this P.O.S.
The more I learn about the world, the more I'm convinced I'm living in paradise (Europe). Our chinese coworkers hate 996 as much as anybody, but social pressure keeps them in the rat race.
This is totally crazy, sick and stupid.
The more I learn about the world, the more I'm convinced I'm living in paradise (Europe). Our chinese coworkers hate 996 as much as anybody, but social pressure keeps them in the rat race.
This is totally crazy, sick and stupid.
I can only agree.
Good companies here are based on work/private life. There will always be some others, but you won't be judged by doing "only" your hours, but the value you bring to the company in that time.
Good companies here are based on work/private life. There will always be some others, but you won't be judged by doing "only" your hours, but the value you bring to the company in that time.
> The more I learn about the world, the more I'm convinced I'm living in paradise (Europe).
Paradise for the unproductive and unambitious, yes. That's why Europe is no longer innovative and competitive and China is doing much better.
Paradise for the unproductive and unambitious, yes. That's why Europe is no longer innovative and competitive and China is doing much better.
I don't see the Chinese having vacations, great houses, breathing good air and eating quality food. Woe unto them.
Then you are blind or ignorant. Visit any European capital these days to find large flocks of Chinese tourists enjoying their expensive vacations, shopping tours and gadgets.
I make more than enough money from a regular 9-5 job to enjoy all of those things. I really don't see any way to justify working 996 without some sort of absurdly high pay, which I doubt those workers are getting. That sounds more like modern slavery.
> I really don't see any way to justify working 996 without some sort of absurdly high pay,
Many people don't just work for the immediate monetary benefit. Some like the company or see some value in working there or in that industry specifically, some want to prove themselves in a competitive environment to raise in ranks and see better chances even if the starting position is bad etc. ... Some might even like the rough working conditions because they appeal to their work ethic. Slavery would mean they have no choice but they do and they choose 996.
Many people don't just work for the immediate monetary benefit. Some like the company or see some value in working there or in that industry specifically, some want to prove themselves in a competitive environment to raise in ranks and see better chances even if the starting position is bad etc. ... Some might even like the rough working conditions because they appeal to their work ethic. Slavery would mean they have no choice but they do and they choose 996.
In the US, I have seen large flocks of tourists from Europe enjoying their expensive vacations, shopping tours, and gadgets as well.
Not to mention throwing litter and spitting on the street, vile people.
Slurring epithets will get you banned here. Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and do not post anything like this to HN again.
The Chinese are the americans of the american continent, or the dutch of europe: they're everywhere and they have the money.
For instance, they amount for 1/3 of all of Thailand's tourism, the most touristic country in the world.
They do build amazing futuristic condos. Google "shanghai skyline". It takes time though...
And Western food is not always known for its quality: the west gave the world burgers, fries or pizzas.
In the end, I'm sure Asia is doing so well because the West thinks poorly of them and leaves them alone.
Hint: I live in Asia and I'm amazed at how so many westerners don't get Asia.
For instance, they amount for 1/3 of all of Thailand's tourism, the most touristic country in the world.
They do build amazing futuristic condos. Google "shanghai skyline". It takes time though...
And Western food is not always known for its quality: the west gave the world burgers, fries or pizzas.
In the end, I'm sure Asia is doing so well because the West thinks poorly of them and leaves them alone.
Hint: I live in Asia and I'm amazed at how so many westerners don't get Asia.
> I live in Asia and I'm amazed at how so many westerners don't get Asia.
I know this is true. I also know that most asians don't get westerners.
I think one of these divides might be that each has a different idea of what a high "quality of life" is.
I know this is true. I also know that most asians don't get westerners.
I think one of these divides might be that each has a different idea of what a high "quality of life" is.
> The Chinese are the americans of the american continent
They are now also the Russians of the international luxury real estate market together with the Saudis. I really wonder why some people are so much in denial of these changes.
They are now also the Russians of the international luxury real estate market together with the Saudis. I really wonder why some people are so much in denial of these changes.
Really? GDP says otherwise.
GDP is a really bad measure, especially when you're financing it through QE and zero-interest monetary policy. We should at least have sovereign-debt-adjusted domestic product.
“I personally think that being able to work 996 is a huge blessing,” he said in remarks posted on the company’s WeChat account.
“Many companies and many people don’t have the opportunity to work 996,” Ma said. “If you don’t work 996 when you are young, when can you ever work 996?”
9am to 9pm, six days a week.
“Many companies and many people don’t have the opportunity to work 996,” Ma said. “If you don’t work 996 when you are young, when can you ever work 996?”
9am to 9pm, six days a week.
how else can you make your overlords richer?
When I've started my own businesses, I worked 18 hours a day, 7 days a week. Ma is a slacker by comparison!
But there's no way I'd be willing to devote my every waking minute to someone else's business. So I guess that makes me the slacker...
But there's no way I'd be willing to devote my every waking minute to someone else's business. So I guess that makes me the slacker...
I expect a billionare to say he needs his workers to have no free time and do nothing but work. Why? It makes him more money. It does not forward the aspirations of the workers, it just becomes a race to the bottom that the workers lose on. This is good for the already rich, because it makes them richer. This "996" encouragement from the rich is just an expression of their desire for others to help make them richer and others poorer.
In short: This is the avarice of Ma speaking, and nothing else.
In short: This is the avarice of Ma speaking, and nothing else.
> I expect a billionare to say he needs his workers to have no free time and do nothing but work.
These days you'd actually except billionaires to go on a virtue signaling tour on how they're paying too little taxes and how capitalism failed the little man, e.g. like Warren Buffer or Ray Dalio.
> Why? It makes him more money.
It actually doesn't, good old capitalist Henry Ford already knew that 40 hours are about the optimum in terms of worker productivity. Everything else is a waste of time (and therefore money).
> This "996" encouragement from the rich is just an expression of their desire for others to help make them richer and others poorer.
Jack Ma came from nothing and worked very hard to get where he is. He really believes in hard work paying off - what else is he supposed to believe?
Also, in a country with a billion people clamoring for a good job, worker competition is cut-throat. It has nothing to do with "rich people" trying to squeeze the workers like lemons. The lemons are squeezing themselves.
> In short: This is the avarice of Ma speaking, and nothing else.
Nope, that's just the "evil rich guy" narrative that your psyche desperately wants to see confirmed.
These days you'd actually except billionaires to go on a virtue signaling tour on how they're paying too little taxes and how capitalism failed the little man, e.g. like Warren Buffer or Ray Dalio.
> Why? It makes him more money.
It actually doesn't, good old capitalist Henry Ford already knew that 40 hours are about the optimum in terms of worker productivity. Everything else is a waste of time (and therefore money).
> This "996" encouragement from the rich is just an expression of their desire for others to help make them richer and others poorer.
Jack Ma came from nothing and worked very hard to get where he is. He really believes in hard work paying off - what else is he supposed to believe?
Also, in a country with a billion people clamoring for a good job, worker competition is cut-throat. It has nothing to do with "rich people" trying to squeeze the workers like lemons. The lemons are squeezing themselves.
> In short: This is the avarice of Ma speaking, and nothing else.
Nope, that's just the "evil rich guy" narrative that your psyche desperately wants to see confirmed.
"I regret that I working so hard, spending so little time with my family" - Jack Ma, 2017
I guess this man only cares about he's own little family.
I guess this man only cares about he's own little family.
Sounds exactly like Japan, when will these people learn that tired workers are unproductive and error prone workers?
One thing that really guts me about Brexit is that if the Tories get their way then 996 will become the norm here too.
One thing that really guts me about Brexit is that if the Tories get their way then 996 will become the norm here too.
> If you join Alibaba, you should get ready to work 12 hours a day, otherwise why do you come to AlibabA?
Wow. Sounds like a greedy capitalist. I would understand 995 if workers were properly compensated. But 996 is almost inhumane. It stuck me as the same tone as when Jeff Bezos defended Amazons work culture. I guess e-commerce must work with very thin margins.
The only person that should be working 996 are the founders. Everyone else should not be expected to work on the weekends.
Wow. Sounds like a greedy capitalist. I would understand 995 if workers were properly compensated. But 996 is almost inhumane. It stuck me as the same tone as when Jeff Bezos defended Amazons work culture. I guess e-commerce must work with very thin margins.
The only person that should be working 996 are the founders. Everyone else should not be expected to work on the weekends.
“If you join (company) you should get ready to work at 30% discount, to sacrifice health, family and romantic relationships so that I can get richer. Otherwise why would you come to (company)?”
Funny, Jack Ma also said “Don't want to die in office, I'd rather die on beach”. http://fortune.com/2018/09/10/data-sheet-jack-ma-alibaba/
I'm guessing he doesn't accept the research on information workers and hours, nor read Deep Work. These kinds of hours will lead to lower overall production and increased errors, if there's any cognition behind what is happening.
Apparently the best hires at Alibaba are blessed with the inability to do arithmetic.
As a member of CCP, I don't know how free Mr Ma would be to critique something like 996. Is 996 a Party endorced idea?
[deleted]