What it’s like to spend four and a half years in solitary confinement (2015)(fusion.tv)
fusion.tv
What it’s like to spend four and a half years in solitary confinement (2015)
https://fusion.tv/story/216609/shaka-senghor-solitary-confinement/
94 comments
It's obviously torture. If you've ever spent one night in a holding cell/mental health hospital situation you know it's absolutely 100% inhumane. It's only nazis who've never been in that situation who think like "oh well we have to do something with people like that you know". We have to help them, not lock them in a fucking box. It's a heinous crime committed every single day by the state and complicit officials. Should be abolished today.
TL;DR: It's torture.
freepor(9)
> I began to carry a gun every day, dealing with the PTSD issues, and fourteen months later I shot a man and unfortunately caused his death.
He doesn't really seem to want to take responsibility for killing someone. I am sure solitary is terrible, but so is being killed by someone like him.
He doesn't really seem to want to take responsibility for killing someone. I am sure solitary is terrible, but so is being killed by someone like him.
Even if that's completely true, it doesn't detract from the points made in the article. Violating human rights doesn't become acceptable just because someone is a bad person, and the American prison system doesn't become justifiable just because there are bad people there - because they're still people.
Pretty much no one (under normal circumstances) wants to be killed or die. I'm not sure why you even mentioned it?
Pretty much no one (under normal circumstances) wants to be killed or die. I'm not sure why you even mentioned it?
What do you mean “he doesn’t take responsibility”? He’s not saying that he shouldn’t have been to prison, he’s sharing an experience being tortured by the state while purging his prison sentence.
> What do you mean “he doesn’t take responsibility”?
It's probably an issue of poorly chosen words, but compare
> fourteen months later I shot a man and unfortunately caused his death.
with
> fourteen months later, I shot and killed a man.
The way that it's currently written sounds like an accident: "I, a victim of PTSD, shot a man and, in a bizarre twist of events, he died from it". The passive voice there paints a disconnection between the cause and the effect.
Of course, judging a man's life from two sentences is nonsense. It just so happens that those two sentences are very unfortunate. But that's on the editor.
It's probably an issue of poorly chosen words, but compare
> fourteen months later I shot a man and unfortunately caused his death.
with
> fourteen months later, I shot and killed a man.
The way that it's currently written sounds like an accident: "I, a victim of PTSD, shot a man and, in a bizarre twist of events, he died from it". The passive voice there paints a disconnection between the cause and the effect.
Of course, judging a man's life from two sentences is nonsense. It just so happens that those two sentences are very unfortunate. But that's on the editor.
I don't quite see it that way - it reads to me as a very careful choice of words explaining that he shot the person intentionally, but did not intend for him to die. As I understand, this would be the difference between voluntary manslaughter and murder.
At the same time, people are the product of our environment, so ignoring that context would also be foolish. Of course, it's easier to blame a child and sentence him to two decades of prison instead of actually fixing the urban hellholes they grew up in, so we end up with years of solitary confinement and these kind of comments on HN :-/
Yeah his choice of language there could just as easily be applied to a hunting accident. Super minimising of his activities.
it's not written in the passive voice though? in that sentence "shot" and "caused" are both active verbs with "I" as the subject. it's a bit more detached than saying "I shot and killed a man", but I don't think it shows a lack of remorse or responsibility. if anything, it emphasizes the regret at the irreversible outcome.
[deleted]
That is really besides the point, because this article is about the third world, or should I say medieval prison system in the USA. That system is a crime against humanity in far too many ways. It is just one of the things many Europeans just don't get why you think it's acceptible. The prison system in the USA is a major cause of crime, not a solution. No civilized country has jailed up anywhere near the percentage of the population as the USA
Agreed. Yet another entrenched, old way of doing things that has been completely debunked using both evidence and common sense among the educated but will require monumental political will to change.
How to “disrupt” the American prison system?
How to “disrupt” the American prison system?
> It is just one of the things many Europeans just don't get why you think it's acceptable.
I definitely agree with your comment. But for the sake of the discussion, I would like to point out that Europe also has prison problems, but at a way lower scale:
- UK's Belmarsh prison has been criticized extensively and regularly compared to Guantanamo: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/3714864.stm. As an aside, Julian Assange spent the past 1 year there.
- France and Norway prisons have very high suicide rate: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6066090/. Though no country is even close with the USA. Citations from the article: "We excluded the USA in one analysis (for incarceration rates) because it was an outlier, with an incarceration rate of more than eight times higher than the majority of other countries." and "Rates of prison suicide compared with rates of incarceration - Data are for men and women combined. USA was not included in this analysis because it is an outlier (appendix p 17)."
I definitely agree with your comment. But for the sake of the discussion, I would like to point out that Europe also has prison problems, but at a way lower scale:
- UK's Belmarsh prison has been criticized extensively and regularly compared to Guantanamo: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/3714864.stm. As an aside, Julian Assange spent the past 1 year there.
- France and Norway prisons have very high suicide rate: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6066090/. Though no country is even close with the USA. Citations from the article: "We excluded the USA in one analysis (for incarceration rates) because it was an outlier, with an incarceration rate of more than eight times higher than the majority of other countries." and "Rates of prison suicide compared with rates of incarceration - Data are for men and women combined. USA was not included in this analysis because it is an outlier (appendix p 17)."
Neither is good - what exactly are you trying to raise for discussion here though?
The fact that there are issues in European prisons doesn't change the situation in US ones. You also also say no other country is close - which is just an indirect way of affirming the parent post (that Europeans find the American system hard to understand). They're hardly going to agree and understand with the American prison system if their own is equally as bad?
The fact that there are issues in European prisons doesn't change the situation in US ones. You also also say no other country is close - which is just an indirect way of affirming the parent post (that Europeans find the American system hard to understand). They're hardly going to agree and understand with the American prison system if their own is equally as bad?
You're creating a dichotomy that doesn't exist. American prisons are terrible. European prisons also have issues. Both are true and are worth being discussed at large.
The discussion was about one of this those systems. Deflecting attention to criticism of other systems during that discussion is not constructive, and comes across as apologetics.
You're right, they're not a dichotomy - so why bring them up?
Animal rights aren't dichotomous to the problem of the American prison establishment either. They're also irrelevant to the discussion except as a diversionary tactic too
You're right, they're not a dichotomy - so why bring them up?
Animal rights aren't dichotomous to the problem of the American prison establishment either. They're also irrelevant to the discussion except as a diversionary tactic too
You seem to be reading something in my comment that isn't there. I'm not diverting anything. I explicitly stated that I'm in agreement with tda's comment. tda mentioned the European point of view. As a person from and living in a European country I find it important (or at minimum: interesting) to be aware of our own issues in the domain being discussed.
That's definitely not irrelevant to whatever discussion you feel the need to enforce, if people from the US want to improve fight against their prison system by promoting the European models, they should be aware of its shortcoming. In any case that's worth discussing.
Anyway, I'm not that interested in justifying my previous comments, I don't see why I should have to. So I will stop here. Have a good time for the rest of the day.
That's definitely not irrelevant to whatever discussion you feel the need to enforce, if people from the US want to improve fight against their prison system by promoting the European models, they should be aware of its shortcoming. In any case that's worth discussing.
Anyway, I'm not that interested in justifying my previous comments, I don't see why I should have to. So I will stop here. Have a good time for the rest of the day.
How is it a cause of crime?
Several factors.
1. If you go to prison, innocent or otherwise, you're not getting hired afterward. This leads to desperation, desperation leads to...
2. In prison, you become socially reliant on criminals to simply get by. This results in cultural transference. Someone getting in trouble for shoplifting learns about the joys of [insert more lucrative criminal activity here]. Combine this with point 1 and you get repeat offenders who become 'hardened' criminals. Basically, they get better at crime, because crime involves skills just like everything else in life.
3. Poor prison conditions result in psychological trauma. This, in turn, leads to anti-social behavior.
In short, we pay a lot of money to create better criminals who are highly motivated to commit more crimes.
1. If you go to prison, innocent or otherwise, you're not getting hired afterward. This leads to desperation, desperation leads to...
2. In prison, you become socially reliant on criminals to simply get by. This results in cultural transference. Someone getting in trouble for shoplifting learns about the joys of [insert more lucrative criminal activity here]. Combine this with point 1 and you get repeat offenders who become 'hardened' criminals. Basically, they get better at crime, because crime involves skills just like everything else in life.
3. Poor prison conditions result in psychological trauma. This, in turn, leads to anti-social behavior.
In short, we pay a lot of money to create better criminals who are highly motivated to commit more crimes.
Recidivism is very high when people get PTSD, no mental health support or any support whatsoever when they are let free after a decade or two. In civilised countries the prison systems main objective is preparing someone for the life after prison. In other countries revenge is the top priority
People go in for minor crimes, get mixed up with gangs with hardened criminals and learn the trade. Once outside they have no opportunities so they become a hardened criminal. The system just sucks.
If you're a felon, you typically can't get traditional employment. For most people, it's a shorter jump to "criminal" than "consultant".
I've heard prison described as a sort of college for criminals. You learn all sorts of things from other inmates.
What does the qualifier "someone like him" mean in this context? Is getting killed by anyone not terrible?
I don't see how getting killed by a former honor-roll student who left an abusive household two years before he was legally allowed to drive, had already been shot, and was left on the streets paranoid, mentally-ill and traumatized before he was even past the age of majority, is any worse than getting killed by just about anyone.
I don't see how getting killed by a former honor-roll student who left an abusive household two years before he was legally allowed to drive, had already been shot, and was left on the streets paranoid, mentally-ill and traumatized before he was even past the age of majority, is any worse than getting killed by just about anyone.
Obviously poor phrasing on my part, I would not like to be killed by anyone.
The state or government still have responsibility not to torture someone.
It's absolutely cruel and unusual punishment. The American Constitution forbids this. I've only spent three days straight in a county solitary cell for a silly threat to a judge. In that scenario, it was a glass walled cell in the high security block. Every surface is cement, and your only clothes are a Velcro tunic/blanket. Surveillance is continuous. There, the non-compliant were beaten and strapped to a wheelchair for days and not their bed. They also open your cell to let a violent offender "clean your cell for you" on a regular basis. It was awful in a way entirely unto itself in my memory. I can't even begin to imagine the conditions and lengths of time in this article.
You were in solitary confinement but had another offender come in there daily to clean the cell while you were there? I was under the impression that solitary confinement didn’t allow interaction with others.
> I can't even begin to imagine the conditions and lengths of time in this article.
How about 27 years and counting? [1] That Guardian article was written in 2003 and he's still in there. I can't help thinking there is more that could have been done for him.
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2003/apr/27/ukcrime
How about 27 years and counting? [1] That Guardian article was written in 2003 and he's still in there. I can't help thinking there is more that could have been done for him.
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2003/apr/27/ukcrime
Sounds like hell, the way he describes it.
However, if you'd take those hellish elements away & ensure silence, I think long solitary confinement might work if you teach people how to meditate. That's just not being done enough in prisons right now. See "Doing Time, Doing Vipassana" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkxSyv5R1sg
EDIT: I know this is probably a controversial opinion to non-meditators, but if you're going to downvote, at least provide an argument for why you don't agree.
However, if you'd take those hellish elements away & ensure silence, I think long solitary confinement might work if you teach people how to meditate. That's just not being done enough in prisons right now. See "Doing Time, Doing Vipassana" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkxSyv5R1sg
EDIT: I know this is probably a controversial opinion to non-meditators, but if you're going to downvote, at least provide an argument for why you don't agree.
>I know this is probably a controversial opinion to non-meditators, but if you're going to downvote, at least provide an argument for why you don't agree.
I'm guessing it's the pretense that you can simply teach anyone to meditate whether or not they want to learn. Also, it suggests a system where a form of torture is potentially justified because you shift responsibility to the person being tortured. "They took the class on meditation and signed on the line that they understand how to endure solitary, so their suffering is their own fault!"
I'm guessing it's the pretense that you can simply teach anyone to meditate whether or not they want to learn. Also, it suggests a system where a form of torture is potentially justified because you shift responsibility to the person being tortured. "They took the class on meditation and signed on the line that they understand how to endure solitary, so their suffering is their own fault!"
>"_____ so their suffering is their own fault!"
Well, that is the core insight, no matter the external circumstance. (Though, of course, it’s not about blame, and more like “here is the door.”)
Get deep enough, and yes, being in a shitty version of solitary is the same as being in a positive fantasy of your choosing.
Well, that is the core insight, no matter the external circumstance. (Though, of course, it’s not about blame, and more like “here is the door.”)
Get deep enough, and yes, being in a shitty version of solitary is the same as being in a positive fantasy of your choosing.
> I'm guessing it's the pretense that you can simply teach anyone to meditate whether or not they want to learn
Meditation techniques aren't hard to learn, they're comparable to any form of exercise. The hard bit is in doing them sincerely, just like any form of exercise.
Can you teach someone press-ups? Then you can teach them meditation. You just can't make them do it, or effectively.
As to signing up for solitary for an extended period, I wish I could, but only if it was humane (e.g. no violence, feces flung at me etc), which I'm willing to bet (and the article seems to back up my suspicion) prison solitary isn't.
Meditation techniques aren't hard to learn, they're comparable to any form of exercise. The hard bit is in doing them sincerely, just like any form of exercise.
Can you teach someone press-ups? Then you can teach them meditation. You just can't make them do it, or effectively.
As to signing up for solitary for an extended period, I wish I could, but only if it was humane (e.g. no violence, feces flung at me etc), which I'm willing to bet (and the article seems to back up my suspicion) prison solitary isn't.
What you're describing is forcing people to meditate.
The way I understand what you describe: "We will torture you, you can either have it better by doing this meditation thing _we teach you_ or you can suffer"
The issue here is the torture itself, not the fact that the torture is difficult to deal with.
The way I understand what you describe: "We will torture you, you can either have it better by doing this meditation thing _we teach you_ or you can suffer"
The issue here is the torture itself, not the fact that the torture is difficult to deal with.
> What you're describing is forcing people to meditate.
In no way have I done that.
Addendum: If I describe that a technique is easy to teach or simple to learn, why does that imply forcing someone to do it?
What a bizarre inference to take.
In no way have I done that.
Addendum: If I describe that a technique is easy to teach or simple to learn, why does that imply forcing someone to do it?
What a bizarre inference to take.
Here‘s an argument: The US is supposedly the land of the free, where everyone is allowed to live life according to their beliefs. It would be against this principle to force this re-education program you‘re proposing on someone.
A way simpler argument would be that it‘s unrealistic to expect this level of discipline for a stretch of time like this from people who couldn‘t even stop themselves from killing someone.
However, if you‘ve ever read „Papillon“, I think the methods he describes as using in dealing with his sentences seem to me to be pretty close to meditation.
A way simpler argument would be that it‘s unrealistic to expect this level of discipline for a stretch of time like this from people who couldn‘t even stop themselves from killing someone.
However, if you‘ve ever read „Papillon“, I think the methods he describes as using in dealing with his sentences seem to me to be pretty close to meditation.
Well, ideally you'd give them a choice between following an intensive meditation training (for instance, I don't think it can be only thing that's needed for rehabilitation) and just classic imprisonment. If you force it on them, it can have the opposite effect.
> I think long solitary confinement might work if you teach people how to meditate.
Work to achieve what? To whom? At what economic cost?
You can do away with solitary confinement and still provide access to skills and space to learn and practice meditation.
The solitary confinement component is quite disagreeable.
Work to achieve what? To whom? At what economic cost?
You can do away with solitary confinement and still provide access to skills and space to learn and practice meditation.
The solitary confinement component is quite disagreeable.
AFAIK, that's how the US got in this mess to begin with: because people thought that solitary confinement would lead to reflection, prayer, and self-improvement. Suffice to say, this approach has not been very successful.
I think that arguing for meditation to make your stay in jail tolerable is similar to throwing people into the sea and arguing they should learn how to swim - it's focusing on the wrong part of the problem. Extended isolation is torture. Arguing in favor of "making the torture less awful" (the "when life gives you lemons" approach) diverts resources from the actual problem, namely, let's stop torturing people.
I think that arguing for meditation to make your stay in jail tolerable is similar to throwing people into the sea and arguing they should learn how to swim - it's focusing on the wrong part of the problem. Extended isolation is torture. Arguing in favor of "making the torture less awful" (the "when life gives you lemons" approach) diverts resources from the actual problem, namely, let's stop torturing people.
> this approach has not been very successful.
Obviously, because they indeed torture them by making the conditions so horrible, as described in the article. Nor do they provide guidance in how to actually cope with isolation and put this time into good use to train the mind.
> Extended isolation is torture.
That's entirely subjective and dependent on the conditions.
Obviously, because they indeed torture them by making the conditions so horrible, as described in the article. Nor do they provide guidance in how to actually cope with isolation and put this time into good use to train the mind.
> Extended isolation is torture.
That's entirely subjective and dependent on the conditions.
> That's entirely subjective and dependent on the conditions.
In good faith, we can assume we're talking about the context of this article. Let's step beyond the literal and discuss the entire conversation. If we do this, yes it is torture. Even if we don't consider the entire conversation, just within the cultural context of the article we can assume that it would be for most people. Continuing to focus on changing the victims instead of the perpetrators is the wrong initial avenue of approach.
By all means, campaign for teaching people your preferred form of meditation. Just do it in a context where everyone is already free.
In good faith, we can assume we're talking about the context of this article. Let's step beyond the literal and discuss the entire conversation. If we do this, yes it is torture. Even if we don't consider the entire conversation, just within the cultural context of the article we can assume that it would be for most people. Continuing to focus on changing the victims instead of the perpetrators is the wrong initial avenue of approach.
By all means, campaign for teaching people your preferred form of meditation. Just do it in a context where everyone is already free.
Then you should also have monks as supervisors in those solitary confinement cells.
You can't make actual change to an individual. You can give them an opportunity of course, but not change them. Some will harden their person and some will just break, you want neither.
Show them humanity, love and give those treatment that need it. Focus on the positive parts and lift those up. Solitary confinement can only be of good if it's chosen, much like any personality change.
Admit that it's not the prison that is a problem, it's that youth problems is not properly dealth with. (as pointed out in the article)
I don't see any focus on this in neither local or global politics. It's odd that it's still given today that we could possibly bully each other to a better behavior.
When will we learn? Punishment does not lead to improvement.
You can't make actual change to an individual. You can give them an opportunity of course, but not change them. Some will harden their person and some will just break, you want neither.
Show them humanity, love and give those treatment that need it. Focus on the positive parts and lift those up. Solitary confinement can only be of good if it's chosen, much like any personality change.
Admit that it's not the prison that is a problem, it's that youth problems is not properly dealth with. (as pointed out in the article)
I don't see any focus on this in neither local or global politics. It's odd that it's still given today that we could possibly bully each other to a better behavior.
When will we learn? Punishment does not lead to improvement.
Quoting from a blog post I wrote [1] which included a note on this documentary and why I think it made an overly positive case for Vipassana and its effects on prisoners in Tihar Jail:
> There is a popular documentary on YouTube called “Doing Time, Doing Vipassana” on the introduction of Vipassana into Tihar Jail (probably the most populated prison in the world with a current population of 17130 prisoners), and how Vipassana improved several measures of psychological well-being among the inmates that undertook it — things like anxiety, depression, sense of alienation from mainstream society, etc. This has become such a success story for Goenka Vipassana that Kiran Bedi — Inspector General of Delhi Prisons at the time — is invited to speak at major public events organised by the Goenka Vipassana organisation. Having become a Vipassana enthusiast herself, she praises it freely in TV interviews and even the odd TED talk.
> But to me this is yet another example of bad science in which meditation seems to get a free pass. Introducing Vipassana was not the only improvement Bedi made to Tihar; she arranged vocational training for prisoners, introduced Yoga classes, organised sports events and celebrations for religious festivals, established petition boxes and went on daily inspections, interacting with prisoners and listening to their problems. Just like patients who feel better after homeopathic treatment, what may have mattered more to prisoners was that Bedi was actually trying to help them; they knew this and therefore already expected things to improve in their lives. Also, there seems to have been no control group in the Vipassana Tihar research. Prisoners who volunteered to learn Vipassana were segregated from the rest and may have been treated better overall. There should have been a control group that was also segregated and in all respects treated the same as the Vipassana group except for the Vipassana part.
[1] https://karanvas.com/posts/adventures-at-the-vipassana-enlig...
> There is a popular documentary on YouTube called “Doing Time, Doing Vipassana” on the introduction of Vipassana into Tihar Jail (probably the most populated prison in the world with a current population of 17130 prisoners), and how Vipassana improved several measures of psychological well-being among the inmates that undertook it — things like anxiety, depression, sense of alienation from mainstream society, etc. This has become such a success story for Goenka Vipassana that Kiran Bedi — Inspector General of Delhi Prisons at the time — is invited to speak at major public events organised by the Goenka Vipassana organisation. Having become a Vipassana enthusiast herself, she praises it freely in TV interviews and even the odd TED talk.
> But to me this is yet another example of bad science in which meditation seems to get a free pass. Introducing Vipassana was not the only improvement Bedi made to Tihar; she arranged vocational training for prisoners, introduced Yoga classes, organised sports events and celebrations for religious festivals, established petition boxes and went on daily inspections, interacting with prisoners and listening to their problems. Just like patients who feel better after homeopathic treatment, what may have mattered more to prisoners was that Bedi was actually trying to help them; they knew this and therefore already expected things to improve in their lives. Also, there seems to have been no control group in the Vipassana Tihar research. Prisoners who volunteered to learn Vipassana were segregated from the rest and may have been treated better overall. There should have been a control group that was also segregated and in all respects treated the same as the Vipassana group except for the Vipassana part.
[1] https://karanvas.com/posts/adventures-at-the-vipassana-enlig...
Big money from few players
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEO_Group
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoreCivic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEO_Group
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoreCivic
Would be no shame if some of those people ended up in the places they operated for profit.
Also, here's his book: https://www.amazon.com/Writing-My-Wrongs-Redemption-American...
I generally like being alone in my room. My desk, tv, and bed are within 10 feet of each other. And I have never really put anything on my walls. Just white walls, desk, bed, and tv. I have been in a basement for the last 18 months and I have been upstairs for about 5 minutes today. I have a bathroom and fridge and microwave down here.
But I have a feeding tube. That is how I ended up down here. We thought it would be the safest place to be while I was going through chemo. For six months while my immune system was garbage I just stayed down here and would only go up to get groceries or go to chemo/radiation. So I always joked that I think I could deal with solitary. I prefer being alone.
All that changed about a month ago.
The balloon on my PEG tube (DDG it) had deflated. And one night I went to change the gauze and while I pulled the gauze out it just started pouring out blood. In a matter of seconds my boxers had blood all over them. I was terrified. This much blood on the outside, how much blood is going into my stomach? Am I going to bleed to death? On the ride to the ER I was feeling faint..
I am getting to the solitary part.
But I saw a nurse right after checking in. And she determined I wasn't bleeding to death. I was going to have a bit of a wait to see a doctor. 4 hours to be exact. But they wanted me out of the ER waiting room due to being on pembro and there had just been a case of C-19 8 hours away.
So I was being walked to a room and she said they were low on places to put me. I was going to be in a "mental health" room. But they got a bed in there for me. White walls, a bed, no problem..
Huge problem!
It is so hard to describe. It was basically a cinder block box and a massive metal door. Everything tucked away so you couldn't kill yourself. And it was so loud since the air had to be pumped in. And I had a bed they wheeled in for me. And the door was open so I could go to the bathroom when I wanted. If that door was closed and I couldn't get out I would have lost my shit. And I nearly lost it anyway. Something about that room was just unlike anything you can imagine. It was like being buried alive.
I would imagine solitary is about a million times worse. I would classify it as torture.
And my feeding tube had slipped between my stomach and the "outside skin" tearing up everything making it bleed. Just shoved it back in and loaded up the balloon with more saline and went home. And then had the tube replaced the next day during normal hours.
But I have a feeding tube. That is how I ended up down here. We thought it would be the safest place to be while I was going through chemo. For six months while my immune system was garbage I just stayed down here and would only go up to get groceries or go to chemo/radiation. So I always joked that I think I could deal with solitary. I prefer being alone.
All that changed about a month ago.
The balloon on my PEG tube (DDG it) had deflated. And one night I went to change the gauze and while I pulled the gauze out it just started pouring out blood. In a matter of seconds my boxers had blood all over them. I was terrified. This much blood on the outside, how much blood is going into my stomach? Am I going to bleed to death? On the ride to the ER I was feeling faint..
I am getting to the solitary part.
But I saw a nurse right after checking in. And she determined I wasn't bleeding to death. I was going to have a bit of a wait to see a doctor. 4 hours to be exact. But they wanted me out of the ER waiting room due to being on pembro and there had just been a case of C-19 8 hours away.
So I was being walked to a room and she said they were low on places to put me. I was going to be in a "mental health" room. But they got a bed in there for me. White walls, a bed, no problem..
Huge problem!
It is so hard to describe. It was basically a cinder block box and a massive metal door. Everything tucked away so you couldn't kill yourself. And it was so loud since the air had to be pumped in. And I had a bed they wheeled in for me. And the door was open so I could go to the bathroom when I wanted. If that door was closed and I couldn't get out I would have lost my shit. And I nearly lost it anyway. Something about that room was just unlike anything you can imagine. It was like being buried alive.
I would imagine solitary is about a million times worse. I would classify it as torture.
And my feeding tube had slipped between my stomach and the "outside skin" tearing up everything making it bleed. Just shoved it back in and loaded up the balloon with more saline and went home. And then had the tube replaced the next day during normal hours.
Good luck man. I hope things get better soon.
Yup, the only experience that do it justice (besides being held) is a prolonged stay in an isolation tank. People do go crazy from this.
Thanks for the story, and the perspective. I appreciate it.
Obviously it means nothing over the internet but I'm sitting here hoping the best for you. Good luck, man.
Obviously it means nothing over the internet but I'm sitting here hoping the best for you. Good luck, man.
Thanks for sharing. I wish you all the best <3
Unfortunately the US (no doubt others too) prison is the business of punishment. If you are poor you will get a harsher punishment. If nobody is looking you will get a harsher cheaper punishment. Working at a prison requires a certain mindset. Empathy is soon weeded out. What's left is brutality. That's the deal society has made, to hide away the hard problem of solving crime at root cause.
Why no comments discussing the root cause has the writer reported it: men who should be receiving non-voluntary mental treatment being forced into the prison system due to non-existence of mental facilities.
Historically said mental facilities (mental asylums) were themselves inhuman and barbaric. The out cry against them lead to their closure. Yet if that just drove the prison system to new levels of inhuman and barbarism then that itself a regression.
Do other countries have more successful mental services? I know Japan did not close down their asylums during the same era America did. Are those facilities acceptable?
Historically said mental facilities (mental asylums) were themselves inhuman and barbaric. The out cry against them lead to their closure. Yet if that just drove the prison system to new levels of inhuman and barbarism then that itself a regression.
Do other countries have more successful mental services? I know Japan did not close down their asylums during the same era America did. Are those facilities acceptable?
Your describing 19th century practices. It’s not as if time has been standing still. These days (europe) mental health services are institutions. Often a group of buildings, ranging from very open assisted living to closed for the truly insane.
While there are instances of abuse on rare occasion, it seems to be miles of from the barbarism of the 19th century.
So there is a whole spectrum of classification these days so only who are truly harmful get locked up when necessary.
So there is a whole spectrum of classification these days so only who are truly harmful get locked up when necessary.
I live in Japan and I can't tell you about the asylums. What I can tell you is that mental health is a huge stigma, there are plenty of people you'll see in the street or in shops/cafes etc who appear in need of mental help, and there are violent attacks every so often that you probably wouldn't hear about abroad but are again, obviously the work of people who are mentally disturbed.
As I say, I don't know anything about the asylums here but the idea that they could be any good seems incredibly unlikely to me, based on my general experience (and what I've heard from other foreigners here).
Edit: typo
As I say, I don't know anything about the asylums here but the idea that they could be any good seems incredibly unlikely to me, based on my general experience (and what I've heard from other foreigners here).
Edit: typo
What lead to their closure in US was Reagan's defunding: https://www.salon.com/2013/09/29/ronald_reagans_shameful_leg...
It's bigger than Ronny Raygun. The first problem was JFK died before the community-based treatment centers could be funded and realized. Subsequent presidents scaled them back because they didn't understand or couldn't relate to their need. And so, Cook County (encompassing Chicago) jail run one of the largest mental healthcare systems because state, local and federal government has failed to do so.
EDIT: forgot the word "jail"
EDIT: forgot the word "jail"
Agreed. There was an article on HN about the demise of psychiatric care in US written from the inside by a psychiatrist. I can't find it though.
It was about defunding and kicking the problem between the federal level and the states.
It was about defunding and kicking the problem between the federal level and the states.
The ol' finger-pointing, can hacky sack-routine rather than helping the people who can't adequately grasp reality or hold jobs are left to live in tents in the weeds of highway embankments or under bridges. TBH, this seems like something some social-work lawyers should take on to push federally through the courts or with legislation. Worrying about initial sticker-price shouldn't be the focus because of the numerous ancillary costs that are far more expensive than doing the right thing (which is why Cook County jail does what it does).
>Agreed. There was an article on HN about the demise of psychiatric care in US written from the inside by a psychiatrist. I can't find it though.
thelastpsychiatrist.com has criticism of modern psychiatry as well.
thelastpsychiatrist.com has criticism of modern psychiatry as well.
Torture. It should be abolished.
I wonder what the physiological effects on the body are from years of no sunlight, no physical exertion, and constant stress? Must have atrophied like crazy.
The issue is that we still treat prisons as a medieval revenge tool instead of a reinsertion phase for the prisoners.
American prisons are a shame and there is absolutely no way that convicts come out of it ready to participate to society.
This youtube channel gives a good perspective on how inhumane life is in American prisons: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzmkeda2XiYpETOP5MjotrQ
American prisons are a shame and there is absolutely no way that convicts come out of it ready to participate to society.
This youtube channel gives a good perspective on how inhumane life is in American prisons: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzmkeda2XiYpETOP5MjotrQ
Its not just prison, it's the entire perception of crime and punishment in the US.
Its why convicts cannot vote in elections even when they get released.
Its why they still have the death penalty. And why victims families can watch them being executed. Its eye for an eye, punishment and not forgiveness and rehabilitation. Its much deeper than the quality of life behind bars.
Its why convicts cannot vote in elections even when they get released.
Its why they still have the death penalty. And why victims families can watch them being executed. Its eye for an eye, punishment and not forgiveness and rehabilitation. Its much deeper than the quality of life behind bars.
The system is also exceptionally biased (certainly so for a democratic country where ostensibly people are free, equal, and corruption is low) against the lower income layers of the society and based on race, while the top layer of income/influence gets a wildly, ridiculously different experience. [0][1][more]
The US doesn't seem to have a justice and penal system, they have a modern slavery system.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethan_Couch
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Petraeus#Criminal_charge...
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethan_Couch
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Petraeus#Criminal_charge...
> Its why convicts cannot vote in elections even when they get released.
Just felons, not anybody who's been convicted of a crime. Not justifying it, just making the distinction. I still believe it's wrong.
Just felons, not anybody who's been convicted of a crime. Not justifying it, just making the distinction. I still believe it's wrong.
Felons not being able to vote is not universal. It is up to each state to determine whether to allow felons to vote. In recent years restoration of voting rights to felons has been on the rise.
An important clarification, which furthers my point that "convicts can't vote" is pretty inaccurate.
The felony bar gets lower and lower: it’s not hard to get anymore.
Post right in time for quarantine.
It's another time someone mentions the Plato's Cave. The reason this allegory often makes deep impression is that Plato was initiated, not just a philosopher, and thus actually knew what he was talking about and that allegory is a carefully worded model of reality, as accurate as it could be told at that time.
I'm aware of Plato's cave, however, I don't get your reference to him being initiated. Could you go a bit deeper?
You can measure the health of a society in how they treat the weak and helpless (helpless in this case in regards to prisoners who are at the whim of the prison).
In this regard, America is profoundly sick and defective.
It is of course true, instead of rehabilitating, they are breeding criminals in prison. It's an abomination.
In this regard, America is profoundly sick and defective.
It is of course true, instead of rehabilitating, they are breeding criminals in prison. It's an abomination.
Eva Zeisel is an important American designer. She also happened to be my next door neighbor. Over dinner, she recounted her 12-months in solitary confinement in Siberia, for having protested against Stalin's regime. She has written a bit about this experience.
She was 97 when I knew of her and even though she was ageing, her faculties were sharp (Extra Pepperoni is the only way to have a Slice, she said).
I asked her what lessons from the Solitary confinement stayed with her. She said "The value of knowing that there was no yesterday and probably there will be no tomorrow. And somehow I need to resist the urge to use, the intentionally left behind blunt knife to cut my veins. And the value of dressing warm".
I cannot even imagine what it must have been. She was some human.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eva_Zeisel
She was 97 when I knew of her and even though she was ageing, her faculties were sharp (Extra Pepperoni is the only way to have a Slice, she said).
I asked her what lessons from the Solitary confinement stayed with her. She said "The value of knowing that there was no yesterday and probably there will be no tomorrow. And somehow I need to resist the urge to use, the intentionally left behind blunt knife to cut my veins. And the value of dressing warm".
I cannot even imagine what it must have been. She was some human.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eva_Zeisel