German digital bank N26 is facing outcry from its staff over management(cnbc.com)
cnbc.com
German digital bank N26 is facing outcry from its staff over management
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/13/german-digital-bank-n26-faces-outcry-from-staff-over-management.html
182 comments
If you have an amazing idea for modern employee representations, you better try to implement it before people are trying to start the regular process for a workers council. If you only mention this idea after someone tries to organize the employees, don't be surprised that nobody believes you're acting in good faith.
The problem with those alternative employee representation is, that there are not protected according to the "Betriebsverfassungsgesetz" (business constituational act). which can be very important if it comes to a conflict with the employer.
Help me out, I'm a long user of n26, I've found bugs in the app - still in production - but can never escalate them to developers. Interactions with support is as easy as interacting with a different life form, independent of the problem the solution is always to unpair your device, reinstall the app.
Sounds like the workers have effectively unionized against the customers.
Let’s hope they fix it, because i am one of their customers and i am very happy so far. The user experience is great and support stellar.
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The N26 management apparently is doing everything to block this, which is a criminal act by German law. They not only filed several injuctions against the meeting (citing concerns about hygiene standards), but also called for an official meetings with all employees at exactly the time the soon to be Work Council held its meeting today. Now someone called the police to the meeting:
https://twitter.com/worker291/status/1294210928234373120?s=2...
Continuously updated article in German:
https://financefwd.com/de/n26-betriebsratswahl-versammlung/
https://twitter.com/worker291/status/1294210928234373120?s=2...
Continuously updated article in German:
https://financefwd.com/de/n26-betriebsratswahl-versammlung/
Most likely they got one of those law firms specialized in "cleaning" works councils. There are a couple ones.
Maybe, but the thing is verdi is involved which means they will have a bad time trying to get away with it.
verdi == general purpose union coverying many different fields, worker counciels etc. with a lot of legal expertise about what is possible and what is not.
verdi == general purpose union coverying many different fields, worker counciels etc. with a lot of legal expertise about what is possible and what is not.
> There are a couple ones.
Name and shame seems appropriate here, no?.
Name and shame seems appropriate here, no?.
I posted an example in another thread, beyond that I am not willing to test how good is my legal insurance.
That's what throwaways are for ;)
I used to be a happy N26 customer. But now I'm going out of my way to tell everyone not to use them. Two years ago I ordered the "metal" account (I think that was the name) since I was traveling a lot. Last year, I forgot to cancel it until I got an email saying it renewed.
It's not a huge amount, €5 a month. But I don't use it anymore so that's wasted money and I decided to cancel it. Under EU law, I have two weeks to cancel a subscription if I decide I don't want it, including an auto-renewing subscription. I've cancelled subscriptions this way with companies before and never had any comments beyond "yes, we'll cancel that for you immediately".
Not so N26. I said I want to cancel (within 2 days), they said I'd have to pay the full year. I sent them the EU law saying that I have two weeks to cancel, and they immediately, and in very threatening terms, said if I don't pay it all they'll send my account to a debt collection agency (this is now the 4th message in the conversation, and my first ever conversation with support after three years as a happy customer).
I immediately withdrew all money from the account and emailed support instructing them to close the account, referencing that support conversation and the law saying that they can't charge me for the year's subscription.
Well, they did close my account, and they did send the rest of the subscription charge to a collection agency who have sent me a few messages (that I've ignored).
Oh, and the cherry on top. They emailed me back to say that my attempt to cancel the subscription was not valid because I didn't use the word "revoke". Apparently this would have all been fine if I said I want to "revoke the subscription" but my account goes to a collection agency because I said " cancel my subscription" instead which is completele BS.
Pretty terrible experience. In short, don't use N26.
It's not a huge amount, €5 a month. But I don't use it anymore so that's wasted money and I decided to cancel it. Under EU law, I have two weeks to cancel a subscription if I decide I don't want it, including an auto-renewing subscription. I've cancelled subscriptions this way with companies before and never had any comments beyond "yes, we'll cancel that for you immediately".
Not so N26. I said I want to cancel (within 2 days), they said I'd have to pay the full year. I sent them the EU law saying that I have two weeks to cancel, and they immediately, and in very threatening terms, said if I don't pay it all they'll send my account to a debt collection agency (this is now the 4th message in the conversation, and my first ever conversation with support after three years as a happy customer).
I immediately withdrew all money from the account and emailed support instructing them to close the account, referencing that support conversation and the law saying that they can't charge me for the year's subscription.
Well, they did close my account, and they did send the rest of the subscription charge to a collection agency who have sent me a few messages (that I've ignored).
Oh, and the cherry on top. They emailed me back to say that my attempt to cancel the subscription was not valid because I didn't use the word "revoke". Apparently this would have all been fine if I said I want to "revoke the subscription" but my account goes to a collection agency because I said " cancel my subscription" instead which is completele BS.
Pretty terrible experience. In short, don't use N26.
Uff! I moved to Germany last year and i almost got an account with them... for thor’s beard!!! I’ glad i opened an account at bunq.
Bunq is the cat's whiskers.
Could you tell us which EU law allows this, because I'm not sure what you're talking about. The only thing with two weeks I know about is for returning online purchases which wouldn't apply here as it's a renewal. As far as I know cancellation deadlines can be up to three months.
Not sure about German/EU law, but in the Netherlands the 14 day cooling off period also applies to subscriptions and financial products [1]. However, this is only 14 days after the sale. I don’t think this applies to renewals.
[1] https://business.gov.nl/regulation/cancellation-period-sale/
[1] https://business.gov.nl/regulation/cancellation-period-sale/
Yes, this is exactly what I meant and should be the EU law he mentioned. The 14 days only apply to subscriptions after initially signing up, after that you have to cancel your subscription within the regular cancellation period that is stated in the contract or terms of service and can be up to three months in Germany. In case of N26 Metal it seems to be four weeks.
The 14 days cool down period also applies in Germany and every EU country.
If you bothered to read the terms before you sign up for Metal, you'd see that the subscription duration is ONE YEAR. They did not hide this fact either, it is written there "Duration: Annual" at the sign up page.
Yes, I know. I had the subscription for two full years. When it auto-renewed for the third year, I decided to cancel it, within the two weeks cooling off period required by EU law. The terms and conditions provided by the company can say what they like, but they are not allowed to invalidate EU consumer protection laws.
In any case, the main issue was that N26 support escalated this in an extremely aggressive manner. I was talking to them politely. I actually said something along the lines of "I believe, under this EU law, that I'm entitled to cancel the auto-renewed subscription. Isn't that correct?". Their response: boom, debt collection agency. Completely uncalled-for and turned this previously happy customer into someone who hates their company.
In any case, the main issue was that N26 support escalated this in an extremely aggressive manner. I was talking to them politely. I actually said something along the lines of "I believe, under this EU law, that I'm entitled to cancel the auto-renewed subscription. Isn't that correct?". Their response: boom, debt collection agency. Completely uncalled-for and turned this previously happy customer into someone who hates their company.
Where do you find the law concerning the cancelation within the two weeks cooling off period?
[deleted]
> N26's co-founders Valentin Stalf and Maximilian Tayenthal have argued for an alternative, saying they believe the traditional German works council excludes international employees
This is patently false. I work at a medium-sized startup in Berlin, which is very international, with many of my colleagues speaking little German. We have recently created a Works Council (with support from the management) - and the council includes non-german speakers. It is certainly more work, as the work of the council involves a lot of german law - so training and documents need to be translated - however it is possible, and we have nothing even close to the resources of N26.
This is patently false. I work at a medium-sized startup in Berlin, which is very international, with many of my colleagues speaking little German. We have recently created a Works Council (with support from the management) - and the council includes non-german speakers. It is certainly more work, as the work of the council involves a lot of german law - so training and documents need to be translated - however it is possible, and we have nothing even close to the resources of N26.
I think they meant "international employees" as in "employees of non-german N26 Subsidiaries", not "non-german speaking employees of german-N26 entities".
Which, of course, is also a laughably bad argument, since there's nothing that prevents N26 from voluntarily granting those employees similar protections they'd enjoy if they were employed in Germany.
Which, of course, is also a laughably bad argument, since there's nothing that prevents N26 from voluntarily granting those employees similar protections they'd enjoy if they were employed in Germany.
Exactly that. Our works council is doing everything bilingual. for our none native speakers. None the less it isn't allowed to represent the colleagues from the office in the Czech Republic as they are employed by a Czech subsidiary. A company could theoretically offer the same protections/conditions voluntarily. but the works council can't enforce that.
It is little known that the EU has already introduced provisions to form transnational (European) worker councils. The conditions are 1000 employees in total and 150 employees in at least two member countries each. Their powers are way more limited than German or Austrian worker councils though. They only have a right to be informed of company policy and its performance. Anybody knows whether N26 fulfils the size requirements?
> there's nothing that prevents N26 from voluntarily granting those employees similar protections they'd enjoy if they were employed in Germany.
That sounds like a two-tier system to me. Inside-Germany employees having a say (backed by formal power) on their priorities; outside-Germany employees having no say.
A works council, like a union, does not always act unambiguously in the interests of all the employees. It's not that clear cut, because issues are complicated. What is good for some employees is bad for others.
If N26 decided to grant outside-Germany employees similar protections as inside-Germany, would the outside-Germany employees have an equal say and equal right to vote on what they want, or would only the inside-Germany employees actually be represented because the formal process is limited to just them?
That sounds like a two-tier system to me. Inside-Germany employees having a say (backed by formal power) on their priorities; outside-Germany employees having no say.
A works council, like a union, does not always act unambiguously in the interests of all the employees. It's not that clear cut, because issues are complicated. What is good for some employees is bad for others.
If N26 decided to grant outside-Germany employees similar protections as inside-Germany, would the outside-Germany employees have an equal say and equal right to vote on what they want, or would only the inside-Germany employees actually be represented because the formal process is limited to just them?
It would be possible to structure codetermination in a legally binding way that employees no matter where in the world have the exact same rights (barring laws in other countries restricting such a thing). As that goes beyond what German law requires most companies would probably not agree to that but it clearly shows how hollow the statements of management in this case are.
(It should be noted that the relevant German law considers "Betriebe" and "Betriebsteile" as the unit where employees are represented, so each individual location of a company is usually considered separate and employees at one location have almost no say regarding employees in other locations. In that way, the lawmakers had the same thought process as you)
(It should be noted that the relevant German law considers "Betriebe" and "Betriebsteile" as the unit where employees are represented, so each individual location of a company is usually considered separate and employees at one location have almost no say regarding employees in other locations. In that way, the lawmakers had the same thought process as you)
That's a little bit complicated. Yes, the law behind German works councils (Betriebsverfassungsgesetz) only applies to workers employed in Germany (Territorial principle), but the Federal Labour Court (Bundesarbeitsgericht) has ruled that international employees could also be govererned by the German works councils, if international employees are integrated into the German part of the company and are really depended on management in Germany (»„Ausstrahlung“ des Inlandsbetriebs« [1]). But it's a narrow definition.
But the law doesn't forbid applying agreements between the management and the works council (Betriebsvereinbarungen) to employees outside of Germany.
[1] https://www.vahlekuehnelbecker.de/2018/10/19/wann-ist-der-be...
But the law doesn't forbid applying agreements between the management and the works council (Betriebsvereinbarungen) to employees outside of Germany.
[1] https://www.vahlekuehnelbecker.de/2018/10/19/wann-ist-der-be...
In France things are simpler in a way: work councils are mandatory for companies with more than 50 employees.
> N26 has filed another restraining order to prevent today's Electoral Board Selection for N26 GmbH, this time against the union ver.di. As such, IG Metall has stepped in to chair today's meeting. It will take place at the same venue, with the time delayed so people can make it.
-- https://twitter.com/worker291/status/1294183659583369216
ver.di and IG Metall are Germanys two biggest unions.
-- https://twitter.com/worker291/status/1294183659583369216
ver.di and IG Metall are Germanys two biggest unions.
My goodness, this is detrimental for their image ...
Indeed, it's fascinating to watch. Reputation matters for a bank and they are in the process of completely destroying it.
Quite frankly I doubt it's possible to recover from that without removing the founders (currently acting as CEO and CFO) from the company.
Quite frankly I doubt it's possible to recover from that without removing the founders (currently acting as CEO and CFO) from the company.
Does this ever end well for the company? These moves should make it extremely clear to the employees how much they need a works council.
I don't know about Germany. But using every dirty tactic in the book seems to have worked well for Walmart in the US.
It’s interesting you mention Walmart. Walmart has failed spectacularly in trying to enter the German market. Their treatment of employees probably was a factor but probably not the most important one though.
[deleted]
IANAL, so perhaps someone could clarify a detail for me:
I've seen phrasing such as "N26 has filed another restraining order ...".
Is that just a shorthand way of saying that N26 filed a request for a court to issue a restraining order, and that request was granted?
I've seen phrasing such as "N26 has filed another restraining order ...".
Is that just a shorthand way of saying that N26 filed a request for a court to issue a restraining order, and that request was granted?
> N26 has filed another restraining order to prevent today's Electoral Board Selection for N26 GmbH, this time against the union ver.di. As such, IG Metall has stepped in to chair today's meeting. It will take place at the same venue, with the time delayed so people can make it.
https://twitter.com/worker291/status/1294183659583369216?s=2...
https://twitter.com/worker291/status/1294183659583369216?s=2...
That's beyond stupid. It's fintech. Always on the brink of being regulated to death, a highly sensitive area. They need every inch of goodwill from politics and the public they can get. Fighting against worker unionization is already highly unpopular in Germany and will cost them a bunch of customers, and will cause them to lose political favor. Now adding ver.di (one of the strongest unions) to their enemies, what are they thinking? Do they have no clue how politically connected and powerful those unions are? They are now completely branded as untrustworthy and stupid.
Also completely invalidates their defense for the first restraining order, citing health risks. That was covered the moment ver.di took over the organization of the meeting.
Also completely invalidates their defense for the first restraining order, citing health risks. That was covered the moment ver.di took over the organization of the meeting.
https://twitter.com/worker291/status/1294210928234373120?s=2....
> UPDATE: Someone has called the police to check the safety measures of the meeting. They found no issue and have left the premises.
> UPDATE: Someone has called the police to check the safety measures of the meeting. They found no issue and have left the premises.
If N26 did that it backfired. If someone of the council did that, smart move. Further proof that the meeting was properly done.
At least here in NL the Works Council is mandatory _By law_ if you have more than 50 employees. I suppose the laws in Germany are similar. and I also suppose N26 has more than 50 employeees ;)
A healthy organization should have one, in my opinion. Management being against it is an unhealthy sign.
Just so you have some context. a Works Council has the following rights:
Right to discuss: they will have a bi-yearly meeting with the employer, who will report to the employees the financial situation of the company
Right to give advise: (This is the one startups find scary). When a company wants to do an investment round or any action that has economical or organisational impact, they _must_ ask for advice from the Works Council. The employer _must_ take their advice into account. If he does not, there is a cool-down period of a month before the decisions comes into place. Within that month the employees can take the employer to court in Amsterdam to block the action. This basically means employees have the right to block investment rounds through court. The burden of proof is on the employee that this is not in interest of the company.
Right to vote: The WC has the right to vote on certain decisions regarding reduction of working hours or work conditions. Here the onus is turned around compared to the right to advise. The WC makes the decision, and the _employer_ has the right to countersue. This basically means the employees have the right to force the employer to court if they want to do a firing round. The employer's task is to prove in court that the firing round is needed by law.
A healthy organization should have one, in my opinion. Management being against it is an unhealthy sign.
Just so you have some context. a Works Council has the following rights:
Right to discuss: they will have a bi-yearly meeting with the employer, who will report to the employees the financial situation of the company
Right to give advise: (This is the one startups find scary). When a company wants to do an investment round or any action that has economical or organisational impact, they _must_ ask for advice from the Works Council. The employer _must_ take their advice into account. If he does not, there is a cool-down period of a month before the decisions comes into place. Within that month the employees can take the employer to court in Amsterdam to block the action. This basically means employees have the right to block investment rounds through court. The burden of proof is on the employee that this is not in interest of the company.
Right to vote: The WC has the right to vote on certain decisions regarding reduction of working hours or work conditions. Here the onus is turned around compared to the right to advise. The WC makes the decision, and the _employer_ has the right to countersue. This basically means the employees have the right to force the employer to court if they want to do a firing round. The employer's task is to prove in court that the firing round is needed by law.
Worker Councils seem to have broadly similar but slightly different rights and responsibilities in Germany.
They are never mandatory, however employees do have the right to form one if there are at least five employees who are eligible to vote (18+) and if at least three of those can be elected (>6 months with the company, broadly speaking no one in an important management role).
At least three employees have to take the initiative and call for an election and that can often be quite scary, to be honest. Because appalling rhetoric like here from N26 is not uncommon when that happens. Often these employers also try to (even pre-emptively) form their own unofficial employee council (like is the case here), however that has to be seen with a heavy dose of skepticism, since ultimate power of how such unofficial councils function and whether they can exist at all still rests with the employer. Unlike the Worker Councils they are not protected by the law.
Worker councils cannot be abolished by the employers, their rights cannot be taken away by the employer. The employer has not control over them. That’s their power.
That doesn’t really change that I’m currently still too scared to actually form one at the company I work for, even though I would very much like for it to exist. It still feels like painting a target on your back, even though Germany does not have at-will employment and you certainly cannot be fired or blocked or even just so much as reprimanded for wanting a form a Worker Council.
They are never mandatory, however employees do have the right to form one if there are at least five employees who are eligible to vote (18+) and if at least three of those can be elected (>6 months with the company, broadly speaking no one in an important management role).
At least three employees have to take the initiative and call for an election and that can often be quite scary, to be honest. Because appalling rhetoric like here from N26 is not uncommon when that happens. Often these employers also try to (even pre-emptively) form their own unofficial employee council (like is the case here), however that has to be seen with a heavy dose of skepticism, since ultimate power of how such unofficial councils function and whether they can exist at all still rests with the employer. Unlike the Worker Councils they are not protected by the law.
Worker councils cannot be abolished by the employers, their rights cannot be taken away by the employer. The employer has not control over them. That’s their power.
That doesn’t really change that I’m currently still too scared to actually form one at the company I work for, even though I would very much like for it to exist. It still feels like painting a target on your back, even though Germany does not have at-will employment and you certainly cannot be fired or blocked or even just so much as reprimanded for wanting a form a Worker Council.
>That doesn’t really change that I’m currently still too scared to actually form one at the company I work for, even though I would very much like for it to exist. It still feels like painting a target on your back, even though Germany does not have at-will employment and you certainly cannot be fired or blocked or even just so much as reprimanded for wanting a form a Worker Council.
If there's one good thing that's gonna come out of the idiotic attempts by the N26 management to stop this, I hope it's bringing more awareness to the fact that "Betriebsräte" are even a thing that exists.
Second step is getting help in actually creating one, and I'm hoping that ver.di (and other unions! IG Metall has been active in this space recently too.) will step up and provide guidance and support for this.
If there's one good thing that's gonna come out of the idiotic attempts by the N26 management to stop this, I hope it's bringing more awareness to the fact that "Betriebsräte" are even a thing that exists.
Second step is getting help in actually creating one, and I'm hoping that ver.di (and other unions! IG Metall has been active in this space recently too.) will step up and provide guidance and support for this.
> I hope it's bringing more awareness to the fact that "Betriebsräte" are even a thing that exists
Isn't it common knowledge? 40% of employees work in companies with a worker council, it's pretty much the default for large enterprises.
I think it's pretty accurate regarding career effect. Worker Council members are generally much more union-involved, which employers obviously don't like too much. On the other hand: as long as you're a member of the worker council, you can essentially not get fired at all (short of being caught stealing or physically attacking people) so it's a stable career in itself, though rather like working for the government: you won't get to the highest heights, but you'll also not have to work too hard or fear for your job in an economic downturn.
Isn't it common knowledge? 40% of employees work in companies with a worker council, it's pretty much the default for large enterprises.
I think it's pretty accurate regarding career effect. Worker Council members are generally much more union-involved, which employers obviously don't like too much. On the other hand: as long as you're a member of the worker council, you can essentially not get fired at all (short of being caught stealing or physically attacking people) so it's a stable career in itself, though rather like working for the government: you won't get to the highest heights, but you'll also not have to work too hard or fear for your job in an economic downturn.
>Isn't it common knowledge? 40% of employees work in companies with a worker council, it's pretty much the default for large enterprises.
Among german-native workforce? Probably. Among the huge swaths on immigrants in Berlin's startup scene? Absolutely not.
Among german-native workforce? Probably. Among the huge swaths on immigrants in Berlin's startup scene? Absolutely not.
Not really, one of my previous employers I think they considered many times to have made a big mistake getting into German market, as we had to continuously remind them of German work laws.
>That doesn’t really change that I’m currently still too scared to actually form one at the company I work for, even though I would very much like for it to exist. It still feels like painting a target on your back, even though Germany does not have at-will employment and you certainly cannot be fired or blocked or even just so much as reprimanded for wanting a form a Worker Council.
At one of my previous employers there was a failed attempt to form a worker council. The 3 employees were all fired after being in the company for many years. Management basically put them under constant surveillance and recorded every tiny slip-up.
At one of my previous employers there was a failed attempt to form a worker council. The 3 employees were all fired after being in the company for many years. Management basically put them under constant surveillance and recorded every tiny slip-up.
Why did forming the council fail?
It failed because there was a vote, and a lot of people said they would be a candidate. Nobody explained that you need more than 50% of the vote, so everybody just gave votes to the people they knew, giving each candidate about 10%.
Since there was no majority they couldn't form a work council.
Since there was no majority they couldn't form a work council.
It is painting a target, as you said. at least with many employers. also being part of a works council can massively hinder your career, even if officially there are protections in place against such things.
but being a works council member myself I can assure you that even the best employers can have very subtle ways. Works council members from different companies talk and some stories are outright scary.
but being a works council member myself I can assure you that even the best employers can have very subtle ways. Works council members from different companies talk and some stories are outright scary.
story time?
> It is painting a target, as you said. at least with many employers. also being part of a works council can massively hinder your career, even if officially there are protections in place against such things.
In the company I work for some join the (Dutch) Works Council just to get ahead in their career. They often join until they're promoted. It's a huge international shipping company.
In the company I work for some join the (Dutch) Works Council just to get ahead in their career. They often join until they're promoted. It's a huge international shipping company.
Wow. Never heard of that in Germany. Seems that in the Netherlands the works council has a different standing.
> That doesn’t really change that I’m currently still too scared to actually form one at the company I work for, even though I would very much like for it to exist.
Active Betriebsrat here. Do it if you have a couple of like minded co-workers. If you need any assistance contact the nearest union - verdi should be the best guess if you're in tech.
Best of luck!
Active Betriebsrat here. Do it if you have a couple of like minded co-workers. If you need any assistance contact the nearest union - verdi should be the best guess if you're in tech.
Best of luck!
> That doesn’t really change that I’m currently still too scared to actually form one at the company I work for, even though I would very much like for it to exist.
Are you in Netherlands or in Germany? I'm part of a Dutch Works Council. I completely disagree with the statement that Dutch and German Works Councils are similar. A German Works Council is has loads of rights that a Dutch Works Council does not have. It basically deals with way more things/
If a Works Council is appreciated often depends not so much on the company, it's also depends on whom are represented by the company. The
Regarding N26: already a Dutch Works Council can easily take the company to court whereby the company itself has to fund the costs. Meaning, company has to pay the lawyers fees. Similarly, the Works Council can also spend company money on getting advice from e.g. a lawyer. As a German Works Council is usually _way_ more powerful than the Dutch one I find this situation funny. It's the times where we advice the company to be careful with German Works Council (e.g. a change affecting at least Netherlands and Germany), the advice is not taken seriously, an in an update 6 - 12 months later they'll confirm that they underestimated the German Works Council.
From what I heard, German Works Council is involved with new vacancies, the hiring process, hiring a German vs anyone else, salary, etc. They can also force the company to fill up a vacancy (e.g. a vacancy due to someone leaving).
In the company I work for a Works Council is appreciated; it's not something they do because there's a law requiring it.
Are you in Netherlands or in Germany? I'm part of a Dutch Works Council. I completely disagree with the statement that Dutch and German Works Councils are similar. A German Works Council is has loads of rights that a Dutch Works Council does not have. It basically deals with way more things/
If a Works Council is appreciated often depends not so much on the company, it's also depends on whom are represented by the company. The
Regarding N26: already a Dutch Works Council can easily take the company to court whereby the company itself has to fund the costs. Meaning, company has to pay the lawyers fees. Similarly, the Works Council can also spend company money on getting advice from e.g. a lawyer. As a German Works Council is usually _way_ more powerful than the Dutch one I find this situation funny. It's the times where we advice the company to be careful with German Works Council (e.g. a change affecting at least Netherlands and Germany), the advice is not taken seriously, an in an update 6 - 12 months later they'll confirm that they underestimated the German Works Council.
From what I heard, German Works Council is involved with new vacancies, the hiring process, hiring a German vs anyone else, salary, etc. They can also force the company to fill up a vacancy (e.g. a vacancy due to someone leaving).
In the company I work for a Works Council is appreciated; it's not something they do because there's a law requiring it.
Yes, I sadly do know of a couple of attempts to sabotage such attempts from friends working at other companies.
Evaluation records that don't reflect the actual work, mobbing, surveys where the "majority" states the company is best without one,...
There are lawyers specialized in helping management,
https://www.kanzlei-hasselbach.de/2016/kuendigung-betriebsra...
Evaluation records that don't reflect the actual work, mobbing, surveys where the "majority" states the company is best without one,...
There are lawyers specialized in helping management,
https://www.kanzlei-hasselbach.de/2016/kuendigung-betriebsra...
Regarding the last point, the Netherlands is very different from the US, especially at-will employment states. Once you give an employee a permanent contract, you cannot fire them except for a set of reasons defined by law.
Most interestingly compared to US, if you need to lay off people you need to lay of your employees in order of most junior to most senior (seniority in terms of time they have been with the company)
Most interestingly compared to US, if you need to lay off people you need to lay of your employees in order of most junior to most senior (seniority in terms of time they have been with the company)
>Once you give an employee a permanent contract, you cannot fire them except for a set of reasons defined by law.
Americans be like: "Shock! Awe! How would anyone ever hire an employee under such a requirement?!"
(Meanwhile Netherlands unemployed rate is ~ 4.3%, and the US one at ~10 - and the latter with lots of under-reporting, e.g. people giving up looking for a job, and so on).
Americans be like: "Shock! Awe! How would anyone ever hire an employee under such a requirement?!"
(Meanwhile Netherlands unemployed rate is ~ 4.3%, and the US one at ~10 - and the latter with lots of under-reporting, e.g. people giving up looking for a job, and so on).
> the latter with lots of under-reporting, e.g. people giving up looking for a job, and so on
Is that not the case in NL?
At least here in Germany, the government uses a lot of tricks to make the number smaller (we call it "Schönrechnen", calculating in a way to make a number look better)
Is that not the case in NL?
At least here in Germany, the government uses a lot of tricks to make the number smaller (we call it "Schönrechnen", calculating in a way to make a number look better)
>Is that not the case in NL?
A little, but nothing like the US.
A little, but nothing like the US.
That is actually not at all true. Those seeking for more than a year are removed from the unemployment statistic, as well as anyone who's employed for at least one(!) hour a week (this was changed a few years ago).
The Dutch government is at least as skilled as making its people believe things are going well. Its a actually a bit of a rabbit hole, just like it is for Americans.
The Dutch government is at least as skilled as making its people believe things are going well. Its a actually a bit of a rabbit hole, just like it is for Americans.
That sounds more like what I expected ;)
> The Dutch government is at least as skilled as making its people believe things are going well. Its a actually a bit of a rabbit hole, just like it is for Americans.
I think that’s most governments in general, sadly.
> The Dutch government is at least as skilled as making its people believe things are going well. Its a actually a bit of a rabbit hole, just like it is for Americans.
I think that’s most governments in general, sadly.
> Meanwhile Netherlands unemployed rate is ~ 4.3%, and the US one at ~10
To be fair this is not a very good comparison due to the European focus on job retention schemes vs the American focus on expanded unemployment insurance and stimulus cheques during the pandemic.
To be fair this is not a very good comparison due to the European focus on job retention schemes vs the American focus on expanded unemployment insurance and stimulus cheques during the pandemic.
It's a tremendous comparison considering the European scheme worked and the American scheme was woefully inadequate and is causing incredible turmoil for tens of millions of people.
Well, in France similar laws exists and the unemployed rate is at 7% (but is likely below the actual rate, as you have to be actively looking for a job to be counted as unemployed)
> Well, in France similar laws exists and the unemployed rate is at 7% (but is likely below the actual rate, as you have to be actively looking for a job to be counted as unemployed)
This is effectively how the unemployment rate is counted in the US too: you have to be actively looking for a job (be a jobseeker) to be counted in the unemployment rate.
There are millions of people who are no longer jobseekers for whatever reason. Most often it is due to becoming more and more demoralized/demotivated (Americans statistically, adjusted for population, have this problem by far the worst of the entire developed world), having a legal record that makes a person virtually unemployable (we lock up our citizens at a higher rate than anyone else in the world), people having to be full-time caretakers for a family member (due to a lack of proper and adequately funded social insurance), disabled people trying to get benefits for several years—and often failing (Of the developed world, only in South Korea is it harder to claim disability benefits: this really says a lot because the perception around disability in Asia, but especially Southeast Asia is deplorable).
This is effectively how the unemployment rate is counted in the US too: you have to be actively looking for a job (be a jobseeker) to be counted in the unemployment rate.
There are millions of people who are no longer jobseekers for whatever reason. Most often it is due to becoming more and more demoralized/demotivated (Americans statistically, adjusted for population, have this problem by far the worst of the entire developed world), having a legal record that makes a person virtually unemployable (we lock up our citizens at a higher rate than anyone else in the world), people having to be full-time caretakers for a family member (due to a lack of proper and adequately funded social insurance), disabled people trying to get benefits for several years—and often failing (Of the developed world, only in South Korea is it harder to claim disability benefits: this really says a lot because the perception around disability in Asia, but especially Southeast Asia is deplorable).
American salary: ....
Dutch salary: ....
American job market: ....
Dutch or (even EU) job market: ....
They are not comparable. In the Netherlands and Germany it feels like the only employees who make good money are management. Engineers are never going to be rich from working as engineers. The only way to make it is to break into management, and the odds are against you.
They are not comparable. In the Netherlands and Germany it feels like the only employees who make good money are management. Engineers are never going to be rich from working as engineers. The only way to make it is to break into management, and the odds are against you.
Very accurate. And even if you're making good money, you're paying significantly higher taxes, will usually not own a house etc.
Might still be worth it for the benefits, but it should be mentioned.
Might still be worth it for the benefits, but it should be mentioned.
Home ownership in the Netherlands is 69% vs 65% in the USA. Also the taxes actually pay for things like a public health system and police that have enough training to adopt a "talk first" strategy vs the "shoot first" strategy that seems to be so common in the states.
Interesting, my experience is from Germany where it's much lower, barely breaking 50%.
As I mentioned: it might still be worth it, but I really dislike this whole style of "look, everything is the same, only we have X, Y and Z". It's not, there are trade-offs. If somebody likes those trade-offs (e.g. better job security for lower compensation), then they'll prefer it that way, and that's completely valid. But to pretend that there are no trade-offs (that is: to only mention one side of the trade-offs) is misleading.
As I mentioned: it might still be worth it, but I really dislike this whole style of "look, everything is the same, only we have X, Y and Z". It's not, there are trade-offs. If somebody likes those trade-offs (e.g. better job security for lower compensation), then they'll prefer it that way, and that's completely valid. But to pretend that there are no trade-offs (that is: to only mention one side of the trade-offs) is misleading.
Germany is famously a bit of a European outlier over renting vs ownership: https://qz.com/167887/germany-has-one-of-the-worlds-lowest-h...
> Interesting, my experience is from Germany where it's much lower, barely breaking 50%.
It is not (only) a matter of capacity, it is (also) a matter of culture/habits.
In fact, if you look at various European countries, that's funny, because house ownership rates kind of go the opposite way of average wealth/income per capita.
It is not (only) a matter of capacity, it is (also) a matter of culture/habits.
In fact, if you look at various European countries, that's funny, because house ownership rates kind of go the opposite way of average wealth/income per capita.
Yes, home ownership in Germany is much lower thanks to urbanization, incompetent politics and other factors. Right now its at around 51%. Germany is last place in Europe and an extreme outlier. The comment you replied to for example referred to home ownership in the Netherlands which offers the same if not better employee protection and benefits, while surpassing the US in home ownership. Oh, and also the Netherlands is more representative of home ownership across EU countries, here are some numbers https://www.statista.com/statistics/246355/home-ownership-ra...
It's not accurate at all - in comparison to the US. Obviously management having a pay disparity is common (which is in itself interesting, and economically not that obvious - more likely a social effect of a hierarchy), but the disparities in the US are larger. (The US has fairly extreme inequality compared to other wealthy countries, generally regardless of what you're looking at, so it comes as no surprise that it's the case here). Furthermore, the actual statistics likely under represent the issue, due to how stocks and capital gains.
If you mean to say the inequality in NL or Germany is unreasonably high - sure! But the US is even less equal.
Edit: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/16/ceos-see-pay-grow-1000percen... also looks at older income inequalities, and the development is pretty stark.
If you mean to say the inequality in NL or Germany is unreasonably high - sure! But the US is even less equal.
Edit: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/16/ceos-see-pay-grow-1000percen... also looks at older income inequalities, and the development is pretty stark.
> It's not accurate at all - in comparison to the US.
What? US SWE don't make significantly more money than EU-based SWEs? That's news, I'd love to see sources.
What? US SWE don't make significantly more money than EU-based SWEs? That's news, I'd love to see sources.
The pay differential between CEO's and workers in the US is larger than that in the Netherlands, which is larger than that in Germany.
In general, high earners earn more in the US, which includes both CEO's and SWE (but the point about how easy it is to fire people and about inequality was more general, not specifically about SWE).
In general, high earners earn more in the US, which includes both CEO's and SWE (but the point about how easy it is to fire people and about inequality was more general, not specifically about SWE).
Citation needed. Most engineers I know in The Netherlands (around 200) have bought their home.
His claim is simply false, see https://www.statista.com/statistics/246355/home-ownership-ra...
Even most blue collar workers I know own their house.
Even most blue collar workers I know own their house.
>you're paying significantly higher taxes
For much better public services, benefits, access to health, etc...
>will usually not own a house etc.
The Netherlands have a higher home ownership than the US (67.8% vs 65.3%).
For much better public services, benefits, access to health, etc...
>will usually not own a house etc.
The Netherlands have a higher home ownership than the US (67.8% vs 65.3%).
Even most blue collar workers I know have bought a house, what are you talking about.
On the other hand non engineers in a company are likely to be better off.
How is that relevant? I don't care about the relative gap in whatever other country. I don't live in the US (although I wish I did). In Germany, I see average compensation for a SWE 65k€ whereas management at the same company can have upwards of 300k€. Especially bad if you work a tech job at a non-tech company.
There is definitely a culture of rewarding management with money and employees with "stability" which means accepting lower pay in return for not being fired.
>In Germany, I see average compensation for a SWE 65k€ whereas management at the same company can have upwards of 300k€.
I see that as a benefit. Less inequality, less golden parachutes, the average person making a better living with better public services and benefits...
I could not care less for special salaries that only apply to a small percentage, when https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/23/most-americans-dont-have-the...
I see that as a benefit. Less inequality, less golden parachutes, the average person making a better living with better public services and benefits...
I could not care less for special salaries that only apply to a small percentage, when https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/23/most-americans-dont-have-the...
The average US developer salary is about $110k so you're probably better off making €65k so they're not really much better off. If you have a family it's almost certainly a worse deal in the USA.
There are also places in Germany offering 2-3x that €65k in total comp for comparable roles as you see for the high salaries in the USA. Amazon Berlin, Google Munich etc.
There are also places in Germany offering 2-3x that €65k in total comp for comparable roles as you see for the high salaries in the USA. Amazon Berlin, Google Munich etc.
> Amazon Berlin ... 2-3x of 65k
Lol no :) more like 80k base and some stock for sde-2
Lol no :) more like 80k base and some stock for sde-2
Plenty of early stage companies openly advertise €75-80k base in Berlin on AngelList so that's a pretty low offer for somewhere like Amazon! My total comp at Airbnb Berlin was approx double that €65k quoted. An ex-colleague makes more than that at Amazon Berlin but at a higher level.
While it is true that US salaries are higher then EU ones, you definitely can get rich while working as an engineer. With disciplined and smart investing, 40 years of compounding interest can work wonders. In some cases in can be even more - I know a few friends who started investing for their kids the moment they were born.
>With disciplined and smart investing, 40 years of compounding interest can work wonders.
One problem is that this takes 40 years...
One problem is that this takes 40 years...
Agreed, and it becomes an even more significant difference thanks to compounding interest. With the same aggressive level of savings, you can get to the same level in the US at a FAANG company in under 10 years easily. You can even make it a bit less aggressive, and still easily get there in about 10-15 years, while enjoying a way more relaxed and luxurious lifestyle than you would have in EU.
Yes, these are very different job markets, and totally different markets in general with a very different cost of living. If you want to compare the job markets, you'd also have to take that into consideration.
The main reason why software engineers in the US make more on average are the FAANG companies and VC backed startups that pay insane salaries for their employees, primarily in the Bay Area with extremely high cost of living.
I don't think an entry level Google engineer making $120k living in the Bay Area can afford a better lifestyle than me making €60k (before taxes) living in Germany.
The main reason why software engineers in the US make more on average are the FAANG companies and VC backed startups that pay insane salaries for their employees, primarily in the Bay Area with extremely high cost of living.
I don't think an entry level Google engineer making $120k living in the Bay Area can afford a better lifestyle than me making €60k (before taxes) living in Germany.
[deleted]
Entry-level FAANG engineers make significantly more than $120k in the Bay Area. Other than vacation time and job security, their lifestyle is comparable to any salaried person in Germany, and they save a lot more money.
There are a lot of reasons to live and work in Germany, but money is not one of them.
There are a lot of reasons to live and work in Germany, but money is not one of them.
>Entry-level FAANG engineers make significantly more than $120k in the Bay Area
Yeah, people seem to conflate base cash salary with total comp, which is very misleading. Sure, you start making $120k in base salary at google as a fresh grad, and you top out at around $150k as a senior engineer.
However, the total comp ends up being mostly covered by stock, which is what drives that senior engineer total comp to be more in the $400k-500k range. And even at the fresh grad level, I expect the total comp at Google to cross $200k/yr easily.
Yeah, people seem to conflate base cash salary with total comp, which is very misleading. Sure, you start making $120k in base salary at google as a fresh grad, and you top out at around $150k as a senior engineer.
However, the total comp ends up being mostly covered by stock, which is what drives that senior engineer total comp to be more in the $400k-500k range. And even at the fresh grad level, I expect the total comp at Google to cross $200k/yr easily.
I don't think an entry level engineer in Germany earns €60K?
Well I do, but that's an above average salary. As an entry level you can expect 45-50k on average, but I still think that's a fair comparison
We pay our juniors 50k in Berlin (hiring manager).
>American salary: .... Dutch salary: ....
American standard of living (or lack thereof) vs Dutch standard of living.
Considering this, I wouldn't bother to compare the US vs Dutch salary:
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/23/most-americans-dont-have-the...
American standard of living (or lack thereof) vs Dutch standard of living.
Considering this, I wouldn't bother to compare the US vs Dutch salary:
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/23/most-americans-dont-have-the...
[deleted]
There is no difference regarding firing wether it is a permanent or temporary contract.
In particular circumstances, you have more security with a temporary contract.
Disclaimer : I am Dutch.
In particular circumstances, you have more security with a temporary contract.
Disclaimer : I am Dutch.
I don't agree. Contractors are the first to go, followed by temporary employees.
It is much easier for companies to let temporary contracts expire than start the actual process to get permission to fire employees.
It is much easier for companies to let temporary contracts expire than start the actual process to get permission to fire employees.
You are shifting goalposts. Firing != expiring.
If you want to fire someone on a temporary contract, you will have to pay him off.
If you want to fire someone on a temporary contract, you will have to pay him off.
> If you want to fire someone on a temporary contract, you will have to pay him off.
That's not "will" it is "might". You can wait until their contract ends. You can also fire the person if they severely misbehaved (stealing.. though not just 0.03 EUR like someone at Action who took a shopping bag :-p).
Note that "fire" is often used in case of involuntary dismissal, so saying that they need to be paid off is weird if you use "fire".
That's not "will" it is "might". You can wait until their contract ends. You can also fire the person if they severely misbehaved (stealing.. though not just 0.03 EUR like someone at Action who took a shopping bag :-p).
Note that "fire" is often used in case of involuntary dismissal, so saying that they need to be paid off is weird if you use "fire".
> In particular circumstances, you have more security with a temporary contract.
In which circumstances are those? If your temporary contract ends within 26 weeks you'll be selected _before_ anyone with a fulltime contract. This will depend on the way that the company tries to fire someone.
https://www.uwv.nl/werkgevers/werkgever-en-ontslag/ik-wil-on...
In which circumstances are those? If your temporary contract ends within 26 weeks you'll be selected _before_ anyone with a fulltime contract. This will depend on the way that the company tries to fire someone.
https://www.uwv.nl/werkgevers/werkgever-en-ontslag/ik-wil-on...
That's fascinating. I can see both the positives of it and the downsides. I recently (around two years ago) worked for a startup which grew too quickly and made some really bad hiring decisions which left them with a lot of loud, disgruntled employees - these works council right's would've crippled the company instead of just setting it back a few years.
On the other side I've worked for a larger financial services company more than a few years ago which would've really benefited from this sort of setup as the management was pretty callous in regards to when it got rid of employees or changed incentives at last second or diluted them severely.
On the other side I've worked for a larger financial services company more than a few years ago which would've really benefited from this sort of setup as the management was pretty callous in regards to when it got rid of employees or changed incentives at last second or diluted them severely.
Why do we not have this seeming wonderful system in the United States?
Works council is all roses until it isn't. As a manager it's a huge pain to manage out non performing employees. Eventually all the good people leave and you are left with the ones you cannot fire.
Yes but I’m sure you can internally get the non performers away from the good ones. Either ways, sounds like there is an actual balance of power which I feel like labor in America can use.
If a startup refuses a worker’s council this way and someone already tries to establish it, that’s a good sign to look for employment somewhere else.
In the article the N26 management is quoted:
"The alternative to the Works Council should have a representation of employees who are not only based in Germany, but also all other countries, including Brazil and the United States" and
"That said, if the N26 team feels that they want to organize the feedback culture in Germany differently via a works council, N26 will of course respect and support this, as well as any step in the formation of an electoral board."
The article says the initial dissent from the management was due to Covid19 concerns and inclusion of international employees. It may well be that N26 is just trying to safe face, but if we take the statements as honest, they at least give the impression that the management is not in principle against a worker's council.
"The alternative to the Works Council should have a representation of employees who are not only based in Germany, but also all other countries, including Brazil and the United States" and
"That said, if the N26 team feels that they want to organize the feedback culture in Germany differently via a works council, N26 will of course respect and support this, as well as any step in the formation of an electoral board."
The article says the initial dissent from the management was due to Covid19 concerns and inclusion of international employees. It may well be that N26 is just trying to safe face, but if we take the statements as honest, they at least give the impression that the management is not in principle against a worker's council.
That's a very carefully worded statement to avoid giving evidence on a silver platter of the crime in § 119 Abs. 1 Nr. 1 BetrVG
The following offences shall be punishable by a term of imprisonment not exceeding one year or a fine, or both:
1. interfering with an election to the works council, the youth and trainee delegation, the ship’s committee, the fleet works council or the representative bodies of the employees referred to in section 3 (1), clause 1 to 3 or 5, or influencing such elections by inflicting or threatening reprisals or granting or promising incentives
Their actions speak different words
The following offences shall be punishable by a term of imprisonment not exceeding one year or a fine, or both:
1. interfering with an election to the works council, the youth and trainee delegation, the ship’s committee, the fleet works council or the representative bodies of the employees referred to in section 3 (1), clause 1 to 3 or 5, or influencing such elections by inflicting or threatening reprisals or granting or promising incentives
Their actions speak different words
German media quotes from a leaked internal E-Mail with different language (in German of course): https://financefwd.com/de/n26-wahlen/
My translation of the relevant paragraphs:
The elected body stood "against almost all values we believe in at N26", it [the e-mail] says. And: "Drive: It makes us slower. Simplicity: It makes our cooperation more compley and hirarchical. Integrity: It undermines a culture of trust and could lead to a hightend level of confrontation. Excellence: It is not an up-to-date instrument of employee mangment and limits personal career development and influence."
Morover, according to the e-mails argumentation, a work council would lead to a two-class society for employees, because it is responsible only for German employees. A world-wide "Employee Representation Board" is named as an alternative proposal.
Back to me: Proposing a not-legally-a-work-council is a standard trick of German union busters. The real point is, of course, that the alternative board doesn't have the rights and protections of a real one. Also, looking at their Kununu reviews (I think that is a cultural equivalent of Glassdoor, though the focus is more on soft factors than money) they actually seem like the kind of work-place one would urgently want to found a work council at. So nah, not much chance of that being at all about genuine care for non-German employees.
My translation of the relevant paragraphs:
The elected body stood "against almost all values we believe in at N26", it [the e-mail] says. And: "Drive: It makes us slower. Simplicity: It makes our cooperation more compley and hirarchical. Integrity: It undermines a culture of trust and could lead to a hightend level of confrontation. Excellence: It is not an up-to-date instrument of employee mangment and limits personal career development and influence."
Morover, according to the e-mails argumentation, a work council would lead to a two-class society for employees, because it is responsible only for German employees. A world-wide "Employee Representation Board" is named as an alternative proposal.
Back to me: Proposing a not-legally-a-work-council is a standard trick of German union busters. The real point is, of course, that the alternative board doesn't have the rights and protections of a real one. Also, looking at their Kununu reviews (I think that is a cultural equivalent of Glassdoor, though the focus is more on soft factors than money) they actually seem like the kind of work-place one would urgently want to found a work council at. So nah, not much chance of that being at all about genuine care for non-German employees.
> The article says the initial dissent from the management was due to Covid19 concerns
Here's the arrangement from the Worker's Council to address the concern
>>> How do you ensure the health and safety of participants of the Electoral Board meeting given COVID19?
> Our Health & Safety concept has been drawn up in collaboration with legal experts.
> The venue we selected accommodates up to 500 people with proper physical distancing. N26 Operations GmbH has less than 500 employees, so even if all of them decide to participate, the meeting can go ahead. N26 GmbH has more employees than 500; however, with holidays, illness and travels, we anticipate that not all of them will come to the Electoral Board meeting. In the (very unlikely) event that 500 or more people turn up, the meeting will have to be postponed.
> The contact details of each participant will be collected and kept for the time required by law.
> At the entrance, we will check the identity of each participant to ensure that no unauthorized or external people can enter. On the 13th of August, only employees of N26 Operations GmbH can enter. On the 14th of August, only employees of N26 GmbH can enter.
> If you experience symptoms of a cold, flue and/or COVID19, or you were told to quarantine, please do not come to the meeting! After the Electoral Board is set up, you will still be able to vote for the delegates for the Working Council.
https://www.worker26.com/faq/
Edit - A real time update
https://twitter.com/worker291/status/1294210928234373120?s=2...
> UPDATE: Someone has called the police to check the safety measures of the meeting. They found no issue and have left the premises.
Here's the arrangement from the Worker's Council to address the concern
>>> How do you ensure the health and safety of participants of the Electoral Board meeting given COVID19?
> Our Health & Safety concept has been drawn up in collaboration with legal experts.
> The venue we selected accommodates up to 500 people with proper physical distancing. N26 Operations GmbH has less than 500 employees, so even if all of them decide to participate, the meeting can go ahead. N26 GmbH has more employees than 500; however, with holidays, illness and travels, we anticipate that not all of them will come to the Electoral Board meeting. In the (very unlikely) event that 500 or more people turn up, the meeting will have to be postponed.
> The contact details of each participant will be collected and kept for the time required by law.
> At the entrance, we will check the identity of each participant to ensure that no unauthorized or external people can enter. On the 13th of August, only employees of N26 Operations GmbH can enter. On the 14th of August, only employees of N26 GmbH can enter.
> If you experience symptoms of a cold, flue and/or COVID19, or you were told to quarantine, please do not come to the meeting! After the Electoral Board is set up, you will still be able to vote for the delegates for the Working Council.
https://www.worker26.com/faq/
Edit - A real time update
https://twitter.com/worker291/status/1294210928234373120?s=2...
> UPDATE: Someone has called the police to check the safety measures of the meeting. They found no issue and have left the premises.
Not just saving face. Interfering with worker councils is something a court will hammer your face in for.
I'd argue that a startup, by its very definition, should be allowed free rein and not be subjected to the same laws that apply to the BMWs and Mercedes Benz-es of Germany (and Europe) at large. The benefits of working at a startup are enormous (owing to the opportunity to win equity/shares). It's only fair that there's an equally sized risk to go with it.
Since when is "startup" defined by "oppertunity to win shares"? And even if, equity is typically sold as a replacement for lower salary compared to expectations, not as a replacement for workers rights.
I think an American reader would expect a startup to almost always offer equity, but it's a language/culture-issue.
In English: startup, the: Early stage company with allegedly high growth potential offering equity instead of cash, based on the idea that will be a good deal if it really takes off.
In German: Startup, das: Small tech-company, usually Berlin-based, hipster culture, offering coolness and alleged skill development instead of cash, also fruit baskets and tabletop football.
Of course the glamour of a German Startup is heavily based on equivocation between those two concepts.
In English: startup, the: Early stage company with allegedly high growth potential offering equity instead of cash, based on the idea that will be a good deal if it really takes off.
In German: Startup, das: Small tech-company, usually Berlin-based, hipster culture, offering coolness and alleged skill development instead of cash, also fruit baskets and tabletop football.
Of course the glamour of a German Startup is heavily based on equivocation between those two concepts.
It's also a stages thing. Early employees is one thing, at 1500 employees though? For all employees?
Does N26 actually give their employees equity? I don't know about them specifically, but allmost all German "startups" don't.
[deleted]
> The benefits of working at a startup are enormous
Not really. I joined a 200-300 person startup that had a successful exit. On average, I made the same annually as I would have at one of the bigcos. With extra risk.
Not really. I joined a 200-300 person startup that had a successful exit. On average, I made the same annually as I would have at one of the bigcos. With extra risk.
Good one, but it looks like you need an /s on this board.
Seems like a good thread to ask then: What other digital bank options are there that are primarily EU based? N26 was the only one I found.
I keep seeing things like Monzo, Monese, Revolut but they're all UK based. Don't think they'd be too impacted by Brexit but nevertheless I'm looking for an EU-first solution.
I keep seeing things like Monzo, Monese, Revolut but they're all UK based. Don't think they'd be too impacted by Brexit but nevertheless I'm looking for an EU-first solution.
Tomorrow (https://www.tomorrow.one/en-de/about) is based in Germany. They are focusing on financing green projects and so on. Not sure how successful they are… I have an account there and use it for Google Pay in Germany and it works fine, but it lacks a lot of features the big ones like Revolut have. Its completely fine for my use-case for mobile payments though.
Fidor (https://www.fidor.de/en/) is based in Germany and is EU-only.
Doesn't Revolut have a European banking licence? It's good although they've changed the UI in the app recently for the worse.
All the so called 'neo banks' are still in their infancy which is good reason to avoid them at all costs. I'm waiting until these startups mature (and they are startups).
In the UK, anyone with the banking license Monzo has is protected by the insurance mandate which was put in place after the collapse of Northern Rock. The service from Monzo is substantially better than any other British bank, so it's a risk I'm willing to take.
Neon is Switzerland-based (not EU).
Happy user of bunq.
Any recommendations for digital banks that aren't terrible to their employees? The biggest/best ones I know of are N26 and Revolut and both are kinda similar in this context.
German here. I am using DKB since forever. Not as hip as N26 but pretty solid online bank with free VISA and free cash withdrawals. Unfortunately I have learned that they also invest in funds that ultimately fund weapons manufacturers.
A few years ago I have gotten a joint account with my wife over at GLS. Not as Internet savvy company but finally Apple Pay for their credit cards. They are investing in a lot of green tech, small businesses. Probably they have invest in some esoteric shenanigans but as a customer of that bank you can actually choose where your Money gets invested.
A few years ago I have gotten a joint account with my wife over at GLS. Not as Internet savvy company but finally Apple Pay for their credit cards. They are investing in a lot of green tech, small businesses. Probably they have invest in some esoteric shenanigans but as a customer of that bank you can actually choose where your Money gets invested.
Yeah, DKB is pretty cool. No monthly fees or fees for transactions, get money from ATMs without fee in the whole world (and from all ATMs in Germany) with the DKB credit card.
"Hip" is really the last thing I want in a bank, the N26 advertising totally misses the mark for me. Their technology seems to be kind of crap, too. Security holes due to gross incompetence. https://media.ccc.de/v/33c3-7969-shut_up_and_take_my_money
"Hip" is really the last thing I want in a bank, the N26 advertising totally misses the mark for me. Their technology seems to be kind of crap, too. Security holes due to gross incompetence. https://media.ccc.de/v/33c3-7969-shut_up_and_take_my_money
This is a bit long back. They came a long way now in terms of security.
DKB rejects applications unless you have German PR or citizenship and it is mainly in German.
Here is a DKB subsidiary https://www.dkbcodefactory.com/ advertising as a start-up.
DKB rejects applications unless you have German PR or citizenship and it is mainly in German.
Here is a DKB subsidiary https://www.dkbcodefactory.com/ advertising as a start-up.
Despite the fact that they have laid off 120 of their staff, Monzo seems pretty good. The people that got laid off seemed to only say good things about working their on Twitter, and most of the developers I follow that work there seem passionate about what they do.
+1 for Monzo. On a slightly different axis, their customer support is excellent and they invest a lot of resources, including technical ones, into making it so.
In the UK, Starling is worth a shot, although Monzo is constantly being mentioned as a good bank in my circles.
I live in the UK and also recommend Monzo. They have a good app but the thing that stood out most to me was the correct use of emoji in their terms and conditions. It is definitely a modern bank.
> was the correct use of emoji in their terms and conditions
That seems like a highly dubious way to evaluate a bank.
That seems like a highly dubious way to evaluate a bank.
Link for the lazy: https://monzo.com/legal/terms-and-conditions/
Ditto on Monzo and Starling. A friend works at Starling and from the stories he's mentioned, they seem like they treat customers and employees with respect.
Personally I use Monzo for personal banking, and Starling for business. Though starling has a personal banking product too.
Personally I use Monzo for personal banking, and Starling for business. Though starling has a personal banking product too.
I have been mostly happy with Alliant Credit Union.
https://www.alliantcreditunion.org/
I used to work for Simple and was always very happy with how I was treated along with all the employees of the company.
Bunq (nl). Wonderful bank, support, ethics, API. Not free.
That bank is way more significantly expensive than any other bank. This while in various countries having a bank account is free. I really do not get why Bunq is popular. I also do not have any support problems with my bank, nor does anyone I know need support from their bank.
You pay for the features other banks do not have. Personally, I love their API and their mobile app in general (multiple accounts easy to open and close, multi-pin cards with account routing, virtual cards, etc)
The alternative to the Works Council should have a representation of employees who are not only based in Germany, but also all other countries, including Brazil and the United States
I find it hard to believe these councils don’t have the ability to account for international employees, is this a specifically “outside the EU” issue since the examples given are in the Americas, and not any of the neighboring countries they surely have employees in?
I find it hard to believe these councils don’t have the ability to account for international employees, is this a specifically “outside the EU” issue since the examples given are in the Americas, and not any of the neighboring countries they surely have employees in?
I guess, N26 can easily setup a works council in the aforementioned countries and just give them the same standing, the german one gets. Very easy, but apparently not what they want.
Actually they could include non German employees in their works agreements. But none the less these binding agreements are, as far as I am aware, only binding for German work contracts. So even if these protections were written down, that wouldn't protect the international colleagues.as long as they are not employed in a German legal entity.
Our works council for example isn't able to represent our Czech colleagues.
Our works council for example isn't able to represent our Czech colleagues.
German law doesn't require equal rights for employees in foreign offices, but doesn't forbid it either. N26 can just create a binding company policy ("Betriebsvereinbarung") extending German-equivalent rights to foreign offices' workers. There are some slight complications regarding voting quora (you still need to obey majorities in Germany separately if the foreigners don't agree), but those are rare.
Source: My employer has something like this.
Source: My employer has something like this.
It's bullshit (I'm on a Dutch Works Council). The Works Council decides over matters within that country. So anyone in that country is (more or less) represented. Could be a bit more difficult if there's multiple legal entities, especially if some of those are too small. A German Works Council can hold all of their meetings in German. A Dutch Works Council can hold it in Dutch, though German one can really force more things to be in Dutch. The Dutch Works Council has non-Dutch members, the meetings are in English, etc. If a change is also about something outside of NL we do not deal with it. Similarly, if there's some change in some other country we might not even hear about it (which is totally fine!).
If the weird statement is a fake fear about employees in another country: setup a similar Works Council in that country. An employer can easily give additional rights, meaning: setup a Works Council-like thing in a country where you aren't required to have one.
If the weird statement is a fake fear about employees in another country: setup a similar Works Council in that country. An employer can easily give additional rights, meaning: setup a Works Council-like thing in a country where you aren't required to have one.
The works council is defined in the German works constitution law (https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/betrvg/) that is applicable to companies in Germany.
Anyone who is employed by a German legal entity should be accounted for.
Anyone who is employed by a German legal entity should be accounted for.
Discussion at Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/i8vjyd/comment/g1d...
Anyone here from N26 who can comment on what it’s like working for them?
Yes, I am a Software Engineer working out of the Berlin office(now working from home). It's a shit show. The situation seems to be escalating. Wishing this was over one way or another.
EDIT: sorry, I misread the question. As a software engineer I am comfortable--the work is interesting and engaging. I think it's mostly the customer support staff who are disgruntled
EDIT: sorry, I misread the question. As a software engineer I am comfortable--the work is interesting and engaging. I think it's mostly the customer support staff who are disgruntled
Help me out, I'm a long user of n26, I've found bugs in the app - still in production - but can never escalate them to developers. Interactions with support is as easy as interacting with a different life form, independent of the problem the solution is always to unpair your device, reinstall the app.
Well can you share the support ticket number if you ever get one? I can escalate those
Thanks for clarifying. What is it they are so upset about?
I am not exactly sure to be honest. I think it's the disparity between the working conditions and benefits between customer support and the rest of the org.
Does anyone know of something like N26 but for Asian countries?
I don't understand what's happening but N26 name for a banking app is ridiculous.
As a German I will never work at a company with a workers council again. I considered n26 for my next place, but I have no interest in the shit hole that's a workers council.
Would appreciate if you would expand on this. How does the employee experience differ when a worker's council is in place?
I can totally understand why management is against this. German bureaucracy is a nightmare. I can't imagine anything good coming from a "workers council".
Overall pretty exaggerated. N26 is against a worker's council, but they are not preventing the employees to form one, and will accept their decision.
Obviously they try to prevent the formation of a worker's council as much as possible. If they did anything more, managers would face jail, as it is punished quite hard to prevent the formation of a worker's council in Germany.
While you are correct, there are some law firms that help making it into a reality, naturally that isn't mentioned publicly.
There are some Betriebsrat trainings where this kind of issues gets talked about, and what are the legal means to counter-attack them.
There are some Betriebsrat trainings where this kind of issues gets talked about, and what are the legal means to counter-attack them.
You and I must have different definitions of "preventing someone from doing something", if yours doesn't include filing for injunctions.
> [...]they are not preventing the employees to form one, and will accept their decision.
That would be a crime in Germany, you can go to prison for and they are actually very very close to crossing that line, if they haven't already overstepped it.
That would be a crime in Germany, you can go to prison for and they are actually very very close to crossing that line, if they haven't already overstepped it.
They tried pretty damn hard to prevent it, filing two injunctions and calling the police on the election meeting...
I mean, they legally can't and have to, respectively.
Only a couple days ago, after having the invite in their hands for 10 days did they start complaining about health and safety. Something they were never concerned with when it came to actually working (packed meeting rooms, mandating customer service agents return to work in the office).
Its a shame, because there is a lot of cool work to do here, and really talented people to work with. It seems to just be a top level management problem.