Bullfrog After Populous(filfre.net)
filfre.net
Bullfrog After Populous
https://www.filfre.net/2020/09/bullfrog-after-populous/
166 comments
For me it would be Steve Barcia [0], the creator of Master of Magic (MoM) and Master of Orion II (MoO 2). (MoO 1 wasn't as great as the 2).
I surely played thousands of hours just with these two games, over 20+ years.
A while ago I tried to get in touch with him (among other things I started a tech podcast and I wanted him as a guest), but I couldn't find any way to contact him. I messaged him on Linkedin, but never responded.
What a pity. I would have loved to ask him how was his life when he developed these two games.
Fun fact: MoM has an incredible mod, called Caster of Magic, built by this lonely Japanese developer. [1]
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Barcia
[1]: http://seravy.x10.mx/Wordpress/?p=2027
I surely played thousands of hours just with these two games, over 20+ years.
A while ago I tried to get in touch with him (among other things I started a tech podcast and I wanted him as a guest), but I couldn't find any way to contact him. I messaged him on Linkedin, but never responded.
What a pity. I would have loved to ask him how was his life when he developed these two games.
Fun fact: MoM has an incredible mod, called Caster of Magic, built by this lonely Japanese developer. [1]
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Barcia
[1]: http://seravy.x10.mx/Wordpress/?p=2027
Master Of Magic was and is such a masterpiece (and MoO 2 as well). Some of the older games, while often heavily unbalanced with clunky user interfaces, have so much better atmosphere and setting than many of the newer games. Maybe it's that it used to be much more about craftsmanship and telling a story, than just trying to make as much as money as possible.
My all time favourite game is Alpha Centauri and I would have loved to be around to see how they designed the tech tree among other things. It still feels like an excellent sci-fi novel wrapped as a game. Wish newer games could attempt something like that. Although I have to say many times an RPG game attempts something like that, the quality of their story leaves a lot to hope for.
Darkest Dungeon is one of the newer games that has successfully created great atmosphere, similar to those older games. Yet sadly I at least got very quickly tired playing it, with dull grinding of the characters who would keep dying by random crits.
I guess also because multiplayer has become so prevalent that it's not even necessary to create great storylines anymore. People will be satisfied by the interactions they have playing other humans and its never-ending challenge by the changing metagame and such.
My all time favourite game is Alpha Centauri and I would have loved to be around to see how they designed the tech tree among other things. It still feels like an excellent sci-fi novel wrapped as a game. Wish newer games could attempt something like that. Although I have to say many times an RPG game attempts something like that, the quality of their story leaves a lot to hope for.
Darkest Dungeon is one of the newer games that has successfully created great atmosphere, similar to those older games. Yet sadly I at least got very quickly tired playing it, with dull grinding of the characters who would keep dying by random crits.
I guess also because multiplayer has become so prevalent that it's not even necessary to create great storylines anymore. People will be satisfied by the interactions they have playing other humans and its never-ending challenge by the changing metagame and such.
The attention span of players today is much smaller than it used to be and there is a lot of money to be made in this industry, so I believe that these facts changed what mainstream games are supposed to be. But we have the indies :)
You might like this podcast episode where Brian Reynolds talks about the creation of Alpha Centauri:
https://www.idlethumbs.net/3ma/episodes/the-alpha-centauri-s...
https://www.idlethumbs.net/3ma/episodes/the-alpha-centauri-s...
You may also want to check out Magic: the Gathering. On a high level, Master of Magic is a quite derivative game, being a clone of Civilization and ripping off MtG's spell system, especially the color wheel. But it stumbled into accidental brilliance. Tech tree in games like Civilization is notoriously bland and padded with insignificant techs. Because the whole research in MoM was made out of discrete spells, every single research step gives you something tangible! It's amazing. Another bit of accidental brilliance came from low RAM of contemporary computers. It caused the world to be split into magic planes - Arcanus and Myrror. They just couldn't manage to fit the whole world into RAM at the time!
Another single player game which can give you a lot of fun is Shandalar. It takes place in MtG setting and is an RPG game.
Another single player game which can give you a lot of fun is Shandalar. It takes place in MtG setting and is an RPG game.
> They just couldn't manage to fit the whole world into RAM at the time!
I had no idea they did it for this reason. But now that you mention it, of course it make sense.
From a contstraint... One of the best features of Master of Magic. The two worlds (connected with a few towers) added a lot of strategic depth.
I had no idea they did it for this reason. But now that you mention it, of course it make sense.
From a contstraint... One of the best features of Master of Magic. The two worlds (connected with a few towers) added a lot of strategic depth.
I still play moo2 when I want to make four hours disappear. I probably need to branch out a bit, it's been two decades already.
I suggest Endless Space 2 or Stellaris.
If you want to find more about the MoO and MoM development, I would talk with Ken Burd. He was a large part of that development and design effort and a great guy to boot.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kenneth-burd-626ab45a
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kenneth-burd-626ab45a
Same in the Atari ST world. Got my hands on a Pascal compiler, but had no bindings to the OS. Then picked up a Modula-2 compiler, but I had no OS documentation. Books were hard to come by, and everything cost a lot (when accounting for inflation) compared to right now.
It was a very hard world to crack into unless you had a community around you, and I did not have such a thing in rural Alberta.
When I got a 486 + really early Linux (0.97 I believe) and an Internet connection in 1992 a whole other world opened up. The machine itself was far less interesting, but the world of development became successively more and more open and easier to get into.
It was a very hard world to crack into unless you had a community around you, and I did not have such a thing in rural Alberta.
When I got a 486 + really early Linux (0.97 I believe) and an Internet connection in 1992 a whole other world opened up. The machine itself was far less interesting, but the world of development became successively more and more open and easier to get into.
When I was 15 I actually spoke to Peter Molyneux on the phone a couple of times.
In year 11 we had to organise our own work experience, and I decided I wanted to try to do mine at Bullfrog - this would have been 1991. My friend Chris and I had started fiddling around with building games using STOS and AMOS on the Atari ST and Amiga, and so I asked him if he wanted to try to get in as well.
We talked to our form tutor about it. He was very supportive, got the deputy head involved, and they let us make some phone calls (a big deal for schoolkids at the time) to try to get in touch with Bullfrog. We didn't get anywhere with Electronic Arts, their publisher at the time, who flatly refused to give us Bullfrog's contact details, but then I decided to phone up Amiga Format, explained what we were trying to do, and we ended up speaking to one of their staff writers or editors who gave us Bullfrog's number straight away.
A totally surreal experience then occurred as I rang the number for Bullfrog, asked to speak to Peter Molyneux, somebody gave him the phone and we ended up talking. After explaning to him that Chris and I were looking for work experience, I handed the phone to my form tutor who verified the whole story and, long and the short of it, Peter Molyneux was totally up for us coming on board for a couple of weeks.
Absolutely unbelievable and therefore, in my eyes, regardless of what has happened since, the guy is and will always remain a legend.
Here's where the story gets a little sad though, at least for me.
I hadn't mentioned this scheme to my parents because I thought they'd poo-poo the idea before I'd even started, and I just didn't want to deal with the argument and the discouragement. I thought it would be better to see if we could get anywhere with it, and then talk to them about it if it worked out.
So I did talk to them and, long story short, they wouldn't let me go and stay up in Guildford (I grew up in Dorset). But Chris's parents did let him go, so my final conversation with Peter Molyneux was to thank him very much for the opportunity, apologise that I couldn't come after all, but let him know that Chris was still going to come.
So at least one of us had a great time at Bullfrog, and I think it was probably the coolest piece of work experience anyone in our year group did. For my placement I was instead a teaching assistant in a local middle school, which was still pretty fun, but not as much as working at Bullfrog!
---
EDIT: I've added the below in response to a reply on this comment, but I thought worth including it here as well to round out the story because I don't want to give an unbalanced view of the situation.
This whole idea of work experience at Bullfrog was always a long shot. I grew up poor. So I was disappointed that my folks said no, but there is no way they could have afforded to pay for a couple of weeks' accommodation for me in Guildford (and I obviously didn't have the money). In my heart of hearts, I knew that all along. Really I think I just wanted to see if it could possibly work[0].
It's also worth pointing out that whilst they didn't let me do that - and disagreements between stroppy teenagers and their parents are hardly unique - they did help me in a lot of other ways, and made plenty of sacrifices for my benefit, for which I will always be grateful.
[0] Of course, if I'd really had some hustle about me I'd have taken a more bullish approach to the setback and gone on some sort of fundraising drive.
In year 11 we had to organise our own work experience, and I decided I wanted to try to do mine at Bullfrog - this would have been 1991. My friend Chris and I had started fiddling around with building games using STOS and AMOS on the Atari ST and Amiga, and so I asked him if he wanted to try to get in as well.
We talked to our form tutor about it. He was very supportive, got the deputy head involved, and they let us make some phone calls (a big deal for schoolkids at the time) to try to get in touch with Bullfrog. We didn't get anywhere with Electronic Arts, their publisher at the time, who flatly refused to give us Bullfrog's contact details, but then I decided to phone up Amiga Format, explained what we were trying to do, and we ended up speaking to one of their staff writers or editors who gave us Bullfrog's number straight away.
A totally surreal experience then occurred as I rang the number for Bullfrog, asked to speak to Peter Molyneux, somebody gave him the phone and we ended up talking. After explaning to him that Chris and I were looking for work experience, I handed the phone to my form tutor who verified the whole story and, long and the short of it, Peter Molyneux was totally up for us coming on board for a couple of weeks.
Absolutely unbelievable and therefore, in my eyes, regardless of what has happened since, the guy is and will always remain a legend.
Here's where the story gets a little sad though, at least for me.
I hadn't mentioned this scheme to my parents because I thought they'd poo-poo the idea before I'd even started, and I just didn't want to deal with the argument and the discouragement. I thought it would be better to see if we could get anywhere with it, and then talk to them about it if it worked out.
So I did talk to them and, long story short, they wouldn't let me go and stay up in Guildford (I grew up in Dorset). But Chris's parents did let him go, so my final conversation with Peter Molyneux was to thank him very much for the opportunity, apologise that I couldn't come after all, but let him know that Chris was still going to come.
So at least one of us had a great time at Bullfrog, and I think it was probably the coolest piece of work experience anyone in our year group did. For my placement I was instead a teaching assistant in a local middle school, which was still pretty fun, but not as much as working at Bullfrog!
---
EDIT: I've added the below in response to a reply on this comment, but I thought worth including it here as well to round out the story because I don't want to give an unbalanced view of the situation.
This whole idea of work experience at Bullfrog was always a long shot. I grew up poor. So I was disappointed that my folks said no, but there is no way they could have afforded to pay for a couple of weeks' accommodation for me in Guildford (and I obviously didn't have the money). In my heart of hearts, I knew that all along. Really I think I just wanted to see if it could possibly work[0].
It's also worth pointing out that whilst they didn't let me do that - and disagreements between stroppy teenagers and their parents are hardly unique - they did help me in a lot of other ways, and made plenty of sacrifices for my benefit, for which I will always be grateful.
[0] Of course, if I'd really had some hustle about me I'd have taken a more bullish approach to the setback and gone on some sort of fundraising drive.
I love it.
I did something similar and contacted Future Publishing in 1997 for my secondary school work experience. Ended up commuting by train to Bath for a week and working with the editorial team of PC Review. By working they put me in a corner and had me play Little Big Adventure 2. I then also got play and review (with heavy editing) Atomic Bomberman. I still have a print copy of the issue with my name on the review. Twenty three years later and I’ve been making games professionally for fifteen years.
My other week was with a flight school at Bristol Airport which was equally fun in a different way. Lots of answering the phone and chatting to adults which as a shy boy was exhilarating and I got to go up with an IFR student in heavy cloud with perhaps the most exciting landing I’ve ever experienced.
I did something similar and contacted Future Publishing in 1997 for my secondary school work experience. Ended up commuting by train to Bath for a week and working with the editorial team of PC Review. By working they put me in a corner and had me play Little Big Adventure 2. I then also got play and review (with heavy editing) Atomic Bomberman. I still have a print copy of the issue with my name on the review. Twenty three years later and I’ve been making games professionally for fifteen years.
My other week was with a flight school at Bristol Airport which was equally fun in a different way. Lots of answering the phone and chatting to adults which as a shy boy was exhilarating and I got to go up with an IFR student in heavy cloud with perhaps the most exciting landing I’ve ever experienced.
That's a great story, and I'm glad it worked out so well. I still harbour a small pang of regret at never having worked in games, but think I'd struggle to break into it now, and I definitely don't have the stomach for the hours these days!
> My other week was with a flight school at Bristol Airport which was equally fun in a different way. Lots of answering the phone and chatting to adults which as a shy boy was exhilarating and I got to go up with an IFR student in heavy cloud with perhaps the most exciting landing I’ve ever experienced.
This is a little uncanny. In the 6th form I did work experience in flight operations at a firm called FR Aviation, based out of Bournemouth International Airport (may still have been known as Hurn Airport back then). They did a lot of exercises with the Navy so I too got a flight. Mine was in a Falcon, although not the F-16 kind: it was more of a Learjet type thing - just a very small passenger jet with twin engines. Still, my first time in any kind of jet and pretty cool as I got to sit in the jumpseat between the two pilots.
> My other week was with a flight school at Bristol Airport which was equally fun in a different way. Lots of answering the phone and chatting to adults which as a shy boy was exhilarating and I got to go up with an IFR student in heavy cloud with perhaps the most exciting landing I’ve ever experienced.
This is a little uncanny. In the 6th form I did work experience in flight operations at a firm called FR Aviation, based out of Bournemouth International Airport (may still have been known as Hurn Airport back then). They did a lot of exercises with the Navy so I too got a flight. Mine was in a Falcon, although not the F-16 kind: it was more of a Learjet type thing - just a very small passenger jet with twin engines. Still, my first time in any kind of jet and pretty cool as I got to sit in the jumpseat between the two pilots.
These days a lot of games is more sedate albeit not that much better compensated and not always amazingly well run. Lots more cross-over with regular tech as games aim for a longer tail of sales as well. Personally though I’d make them for fun if you want another hobby.
I am however eternally jealous of getting a flight in a small jet.
I am however eternally jealous of getting a flight in a small jet.
Plane was probably one of these?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Falcon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Falcon
Yes, I think that's the series.
Future publishing was the shit back then. I lived in the Canary Islands where thanks to the influx of British tourists and migrants we had a steady flow of one-month-late, overpriced British press. Everything from future publishing was miles ahead of the Spanish videogame press, Super Play and Edge were my favourites, i still have a good collection in my mother's basement... It's how I learned English, and the joys of British humour, but also how I learned to think critically about games at a different level. Peter Moulineux was an ever present figure in them, of course.
Ouch, that’s a tough ending to the story indeed. Pretty cool still that you made it halfway.
You know, it was always a long shot. I grew up poor. So I was disappointed but there is no way my parents could afford to pay for a couple of weeks' accommodation for me in Guildford (and I obviously didn't have the money). In my heart of hearts, I knew that all along. Really I think I just wanted to see if it could possibly work. As you say: pretty cool to have made it halfway.
It's also worth pointing out that whilst they didn't let me do that - and disagreements between stroppy teenagers and their parents are hardly unique - they did help me in a lot of other ways, and made plenty of sacrifices for my benefit, for which I will always be grateful.
It's also worth pointing out that whilst they didn't let me do that - and disagreements between stroppy teenagers and their parents are hardly unique - they did help me in a lot of other ways, and made plenty of sacrifices for my benefit, for which I will always be grateful.
Great story nonetheless, as a parent this is the kind of imagination that it's hard to come up with as a parent.
I do understand that your parents acted the way they did. As someone who grew up with games, I would have gone the extra mile to support the venture.
But am happy to hear that things worked out after all.
I do understand that your parents acted the way they did. As someone who grew up with games, I would have gone the extra mile to support the venture.
But am happy to hear that things worked out after all.
Thanks and you're right, particularly in 1991: games were still fairly niche back then, certainly in the UK, and absolutely not on the radar as a career choice for the vast majority of people.
What happened with chris
So we finished our GCSEs in 1992 and, as is often the case at that age, we just kind of lost touch. I didn't see Chris again until the Christmas holiday period in 2018.
I was hunting for retro games in a charity shop in our old hometown. I didn't notice him come in but we recognised eachother pretty much straight away and had a good chat outside.
He didn't go to work for Bullfrog. In fact neither of us went into the games industry at all. But he did find his way into programming, and had spent a few years before we bumped into eachother doing a lot of fairly close to the metal work in C.
I was hunting for retro games in a charity shop in our old hometown. I didn't notice him come in but we recognised eachother pretty much straight away and had a good chat outside.
He didn't go to work for Bullfrog. In fact neither of us went into the games industry at all. But he did find his way into programming, and had spent a few years before we bumped into eachother doing a lot of fairly close to the metal work in C.
Almost all my favorite games as a kid were from Bullfrog. They had so many great titles back in those days. Dungeon Keeper, Theme Park, Theme Hospital, Syndicate. Many hours spent!
I remember it the same as a kid. I read an interview with Peter Molyneux in Amiga Format or Amiga User where he talked about using C to code populous and I figured - ‘I need to learn C!. So I managed to save up 15 pounds or so, which was a fair bit of money then, to order a shareware C compiler from the magazine classifieds. I remember it came on several floppy disks. Then I found out I stll needed the commodore standard libraries (which cost hundreds) if I wanted to actual make anything and I was stumped! Ah the joys.
Molyneux really soured his reputation with Godus, though the potential for over-hyping and not delivering was always there.
Godus could have been a great game, looked fantastic but ended up with a complete lack of purpose except fleece people via micro-transactions or sit through ad views to actually progress.
I always associate Bullfrog with Syndicate which is still up there as one of my favourite games.
Godus could have been a great game, looked fantastic but ended up with a complete lack of purpose except fleece people via micro-transactions or sit through ad views to actually progress.
I always associate Bullfrog with Syndicate which is still up there as one of my favourite games.
Molyneux burned himself long ago with Fable, making extraordinary claims about the upcoming Xbox game and failing to deliver on something like 99% of them. At the end of the day it was a fairly simple game with evil/good branching.
This is complete fluff, but I saw this webcomic years and years ago and still can't stop laughing at it:
https://i.imgur.com/wEo36.gif
https://i.imgur.com/wEo36.gif
> Bullfrog had a huge amount of prestige amongst Amiga gamers. It might not look like it now, but everything they did appeared original and innovative at the time.
To me, Bullfrog equaled Syndicate Wars, and even just that is reason enough to praise them. I never played the other games, and I'm sure they were great too.
To me, Bullfrog equaled Syndicate Wars, and even just that is reason enough to praise them. I never played the other games, and I'm sure they were great too.
I remember following those same tutorials and not really learning much (but I was probably 11 at the time). I also remember that the OS includes were around £300 and there was no way I could ever afford that. I convinced my parents to buy me Blitz Basic 2 after following another Amiga Format tutorial later on, and that is what finally set me on my path. Programming in the 90's was generally a really expensive thing to get in to... And it was even worse on PC.
On the PC, you got QBasic out of the box. That actually lets you push things already a bit. The main things really missing were soundcard sound and mouse input.
But if you got to that stage, you had enough of a clue to go shopping about for other compilers / assemblers.
But if you got to that stage, you had enough of a clue to go shopping about for other compilers / assemblers.
I fondly remember the assembly programming tutorial which Bullfrog did in ST Format magazine back in 1991, which was the first time I had been exposed to "real" games programming techniques in assembler (the ST lacked the custom graphics hardware the Amiga had and doing something as simple as drawing sprites efficiently onto the screen was pretty tough).
Bullfrog made some great games. My favourites were Powermonger and Dungeon Keeper. The author of article seems pretty critical of the fact that their games were procedurally generated and became rote too quickly but I personally preferred those sorts of games. Too many games nowadays are highly scripted with a story that goes exactly the way that the designer wants it to. I'm more of a fan of a game world with a few simple rules, where the gameplay is an emergent property of those rules.
Bullfrog made some great games. My favourites were Powermonger and Dungeon Keeper. The author of article seems pretty critical of the fact that their games were procedurally generated and became rote too quickly but I personally preferred those sorts of games. Too many games nowadays are highly scripted with a story that goes exactly the way that the designer wants it to. I'm more of a fan of a game world with a few simple rules, where the gameplay is an emergent property of those rules.
Yes, that's one thing I missed when I played "From Dust" [0] which could have been a great successor to Populous if it had contained procedurally generated levels. I like the open-endedness, the potential for a bit of chaos or absurdity in how a level turns out.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_Dust
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_Dust
Magic Carpet is still one of my all time favourite Sega Saturn games.
It's available for current hardware, and may still be enjoyable depending on how hard the nostalgia hits you: https://www.gog.com/game/magic_carpet
I still play the Saturn version :)
But thanks for the heads up.
But thanks for the heads up.
Why everyone keeps glossing over the sequel, Magic Carpet 2? It's not the most innovative game ever, but it's very solid, and adds a lot of content in the form of monsters, spells, and spell upgrades via experience.
The single player "campaign" has a couple of very tedious cavern and maze levels though.
The single player "campaign" has a couple of very tedious cavern and maze levels though.
I also found it expensive for a poor kid to learn along with the Amiga. So expensive - plus in the UK expansion hardware was ridiculous. In fact, in later life, through a coincidence, I met the marketing person who decided a 1MB RAM upgrade should cost £800. Thank God times have changed. That whole Amiga sales channel was very sketchy though - and now that I'm older and more experienced, it is obvious.
In 1989(?) I had a local computer store sell me a 512k pack for the A500 - it was $150 out the door. To this day, I think they were grey market - no one had anything that cheap . He claimed it was legit.
Populous was awesome! I remember 1989, when Populous and SimCity were the two "big" Amiga games. I had just added a full megabyte to my Amiga 500... fun times!
I hit the scene a decade before you, in the 8-bit world, when all there was, was empty RAM. You had to fill it yourself, or there was simply nothing.
Especially for the lesser platforms of the time that were competing for attention, this was a lesson in frustration. At least you had magazine tutorials. All I could have done, and did, back then, was learn how to disassemble ROM routines, by FIRST writing a disassembler - in BASIC.
So yeah, they were very motivating days.
Especially for the lesser platforms of the time that were competing for attention, this was a lesson in frustration. At least you had magazine tutorials. All I could have done, and did, back then, was learn how to disassemble ROM routines, by FIRST writing a disassembler - in BASIC.
So yeah, they were very motivating days.
That was exactly the same process including devpac (On a cover disk) that I went thru. Flashbacks...
A random fun note about how Peter Molyneux was able to start Bullfrog, sourced from Wikipedia[0] and mentioned in this blog's previous post[1]:
Molyneux tried to sell a game years earlier but failed so instead started a baked bean export company called Taurus Impex Limited. Commodore International mistook it for Torus, an established networking software company, and offered to provide Molyneux with ten free (still unreleased) Amiga systems. Taurus then designed a database system for the Amiga and the profits let Molyneux and Les Edgar found Bullfrog Productions.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Molyneux#Early_career
[1]: https://www.filfre.net/2016/06/peter-molyneuxs-kingdom-in-a-...
Molyneux tried to sell a game years earlier but failed so instead started a baked bean export company called Taurus Impex Limited. Commodore International mistook it for Torus, an established networking software company, and offered to provide Molyneux with ten free (still unreleased) Amiga systems. Taurus then designed a database system for the Amiga and the profits let Molyneux and Les Edgar found Bullfrog Productions.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Molyneux#Early_career
[1]: https://www.filfre.net/2016/06/peter-molyneuxs-kingdom-in-a-...
> For all the changes it evinced over what had come before, Syndicate was a typical Peter Molyneux game in other ways. It started out thoroughly entrancing, but went on way too long, with only a handful of fixed mission types on offer as you slowly — very slowly — took over the world. By the mid-game, you had discovered most of the cool gear and cybernetic enhancements, and what had started out fresh and exciting had begun to turn into a bit of a grind. Thus Syndicate became another Molyneux game that far more players started than finished.
I'm not following this part, and a similar comment with Magic Carpet. I completed both games and never had this feeling at the time. There's enough new stuff and variety in the missions to keep it interesting until the end.
> At bottom, Theme Park is a nasty, cynical little game, amoral if not actively immoral — a game where your concern isn’t with the happiness of your guests at all, but strictly with the amount of money you can extract from them; a profitable theme park with miserable patrons is not only possible but the only practical road to success. This is the kind of game where you over-salt the patrons’ fries to get them to buy more soda, which cups you stuff to the brim with ice to… well, you get the picture.
I just took it as silly fun as opposed to some kind of social commentary.
I'm not following this part, and a similar comment with Magic Carpet. I completed both games and never had this feeling at the time. There's enough new stuff and variety in the missions to keep it interesting until the end.
> At bottom, Theme Park is a nasty, cynical little game, amoral if not actively immoral — a game where your concern isn’t with the happiness of your guests at all, but strictly with the amount of money you can extract from them; a profitable theme park with miserable patrons is not only possible but the only practical road to success. This is the kind of game where you over-salt the patrons’ fries to get them to buy more soda, which cups you stuff to the brim with ice to… well, you get the picture.
I just took it as silly fun as opposed to some kind of social commentary.
I can see why the author might think mid to end game of Syndicate is a bit of a grind although to me that's really when the game started to get fun. You reach that inflection point where you have a demolition squad that can just roll through missions and get that feeling that you really are taking over the world. You can set traps for entire groups of enemies or just blitz right through an entire level eliminating targets all along the way. Great fun!
Magic Carpet also has the same vibe. Once you start playing against other wizards it becomes a race to get certain spells and enough power to start leeching mana until you can rain down lightning storms, meteors, and volcanoes; all the while annihilating flocks of birds, hordes of bees, lakes filled with kraken, monstrous crabs, griffins... and wyverns.
I know what I'm doing this weekend.
Magic Carpet also has the same vibe. Once you start playing against other wizards it becomes a race to get certain spells and enough power to start leeching mana until you can rain down lightning storms, meteors, and volcanoes; all the while annihilating flocks of birds, hordes of bees, lakes filled with kraken, monstrous crabs, griffins... and wyverns.
I know what I'm doing this weekend.
He is partially right about Syndicate. You used to max out your characters mid-game and the gameplay after that was usually "just persuadertron everyone until you have a goblin army and attack". There wasn't much variety in missions. However, I don't remember getting bored by the game either. I was just sad that it got too easy and repetitive after a certain point.
Minigun was the default weapon from somewhere around mid game.
Some levels had enemy snipers. The last level had gauss gun enemies. That's it as far as level variety goes in that game.
Some levels had enemy snipers. The last level had gauss gun enemies. That's it as far as level variety goes in that game.
[deleted]
I've never played Theme Park - but from playing of Theme Hospital, I suspect this was actually a very conscious attempt at dark humor - and possibly commentary, as well.
(In Theme Hospital you send patients with unknown diseases to an 'auto-autopsy'. That is, you kill them, in order to learn a cure)
(In Theme Hospital you send patients with unknown diseases to an 'auto-autopsy'. That is, you kill them, in order to learn a cure)
This. I remember playing Theme Park and it was pretty obvious this was a bit of dark humour, especially as the downside to over salting was that you had more people throwing up.
Complaining that a simulation of a theme park is cynical is rather missing the entire point.
Complaining that a simulation of a theme park is cynical is rather missing the entire point.
Yes that part is a bit harsh on Theme Park. As a 14yo at the time (that would went on to study marketing & business) I liked all aspect of the game and its business features were not hidden behind a fun design, it was an integral part of the game and the magazine reviews at the time made it clear.
edit: eMule, Bullfrog, Monkey Island, Winamp skins, is it nostalgia week on HN ? ;)
edit: eMule, Bullfrog, Monkey Island, Winamp skins, is it nostalgia week on HN ? ;)
I tried to explain the Neverhood to someone the other day. Failed miserably!
I loved magic carpet and finished it, but even in my wide eyed youth the grind was pretty hard.
[deleted]
> I just took it as silly fun as opposed to some kind of social commentary.
But capitalism bad!
Seriously, though, I wonder about folks who are incapable of imagining a duality of goals: both earning profit and maximizing guest happiness. It's not nasty or cynical to earn a profit if doing so involves improving the well being of others.
But capitalism bad!
Seriously, though, I wonder about folks who are incapable of imagining a duality of goals: both earning profit and maximizing guest happiness. It's not nasty or cynical to earn a profit if doing so involves improving the well being of others.
The game is famous though for the trick of adding lots of salt to food to make the visitors spend more on drinks, which isn't improving well being. I'd bet on the designers adding this because it was a fun and amusing gameplay mechanic over them trying to say something about capitalism however.
Similarly, people would build parks that were super dangerous, or create areas that set off chain reactions of visitors throwing up everywhere. It's a fun sandbox.
Similarly, people would build parks that were super dangerous, or create areas that set off chain reactions of visitors throwing up everywhere. It's a fun sandbox.
Lots of business simulation games completely fail at modeling the inflow of customers as a reaction to existing customer satisfaction. Ie, they don't model returning customers or the effect of customer dissatisfaction on attracting new customers.
And yes, like with Rollercoaster Tycoon, one could do horrendous things; but that's less a reflection on the player's moral character as it is upon their curiousity and awareness of the lack of real harm.
And yes, like with Rollercoaster Tycoon, one could do horrendous things; but that's less a reflection on the player's moral character as it is upon their curiousity and awareness of the lack of real harm.
It's magic thinking to suppose that profit and general goodness always match up. There's no logical reason to think that would happen.
What often happens, fortunately, is that they match well enough that the relative simplicity of the market system makes it a net positive. But to think that capitalism works wonders for society and customers is just silly.
Theme Park parodies this fact of life very aptly.
What often happens, fortunately, is that they match well enough that the relative simplicity of the market system makes it a net positive. But to think that capitalism works wonders for society and customers is just silly.
Theme Park parodies this fact of life very aptly.
No one in the article or this thread suggested that good intentions and profit will _always_ align. That is, indeed, a silly proposition.
Capitalism has worked wonders for society; it has thus far surpassed all competing modes of wealth distribution in terms of life expectation, child mortality, literacy, and even technological development. Capitalist Democracies have performed so well it's sort of amazing.
And in this globally connected world one doesn't have to settle; those that don't favour capitalism can travel to a number of south american states and enjoy an alternative.
My sister in law has done just this, and is happily living off the land in Peru.
Capitalism has worked wonders for society; it has thus far surpassed all competing modes of wealth distribution in terms of life expectation, child mortality, literacy, and even technological development. Capitalist Democracies have performed so well it's sort of amazing.
And in this globally connected world one doesn't have to settle; those that don't favour capitalism can travel to a number of south american states and enjoy an alternative.
My sister in law has done just this, and is happily living off the land in Peru.
Improvements in life expectancy, child mortality, literacy are the result of socialist struggle and regulation, including free education, universal health care, increased workers' rights and welfare safety nets.
As for wealth distribution, what do you think the "one-percent" is all about?
As for wealth distribution, what do you think the "one-percent" is all about?
In Eastern Europe life expectancy increased and child mortality decreased after the fall of socialism.
I'd be interested to see which countries in Eastern Europe have abandoned the kind of socialist policies that I mentioned - free/universal health/education/welfare - and found their population better off/healthier as a result.
Different socialist policies had different impact on health; some of them positive, some of them negative.
On one hand, universal healthcare, because universal everything. Great!
On the other hand, factories were treated like objects of worship. Like, in the middle of a city, a huge factory is built, poluting all the air and water, thousands of people get cancer, the life expectancy in the region decreases by five or ten years, but hey, more factories = more progress. If you complain, you get arrested.
Also, the healthcare was a bit factory-like. For example, c-section at almost every childbirth, because it's more efficient that way. (Secret mandatory sterilizations after third child for minorities.)
Then, when the socialism was over, the universal healthcare remained, the factory in the middle of the city went out of business, people finally started complaining and some standards in healthcare were increased... and now we have the best of both worlds!
On one hand, universal healthcare, because universal everything. Great!
On the other hand, factories were treated like objects of worship. Like, in the middle of a city, a huge factory is built, poluting all the air and water, thousands of people get cancer, the life expectancy in the region decreases by five or ten years, but hey, more factories = more progress. If you complain, you get arrested.
Also, the healthcare was a bit factory-like. For example, c-section at almost every childbirth, because it's more efficient that way. (Secret mandatory sterilizations after third child for minorities.)
Then, when the socialism was over, the universal healthcare remained, the factory in the middle of the city went out of business, people finally started complaining and some standards in healthcare were increased... and now we have the best of both worlds!
And which countries have the abundance of wealth and opportunity available to afford those social programs?
There's only one developed capitalist nation shirking the mantle of social responsibility, but the rest of the socialist democracies are enjoying the fruits of capitalism.
There's only one developed capitalist nation shirking the mantle of social responsibility, but the rest of the socialist democracies are enjoying the fruits of capitalism.
wealth distribution is not a virtuous goal insofar that we have seen what attempts at the opposite end up causing. Everyone becomes equal, way way down.
What is important, extremely important, but no one talks about - is equality of opportunity. In this regard, more than 50% of all americans will spend at least 1 year in the top 10% of all income. Compare that to most europe, where for example, the same 10 families in france in italy , after many centuries, still hold on to money and power...and never lose either.
That is a worthy goal to keep improving on. It doesn't matter how much anyone amasses - what really matters is that everyone has a fair shot at it, too.
https://medium.com/incerto/inequality-and-skin-in-the-game-d...
What is important, extremely important, but no one talks about - is equality of opportunity. In this regard, more than 50% of all americans will spend at least 1 year in the top 10% of all income. Compare that to most europe, where for example, the same 10 families in france in italy , after many centuries, still hold on to money and power...and never lose either.
That is a worthy goal to keep improving on. It doesn't matter how much anyone amasses - what really matters is that everyone has a fair shot at it, too.
https://medium.com/incerto/inequality-and-skin-in-the-game-d...
Peter Molyneux cut my hair once at a Friday meeting in 2003 while I was interning at Lionhead on Black and White 2.
It was a very interesting company, full of brilliant people. Demis Hassabis wasn't there anymore, but Alex Evans was, and he was my demoscene programming idol at the time. I didn't hesitate to get both their autographs before going back home!
It was a very interesting company, full of brilliant people. Demis Hassabis wasn't there anymore, but Alex Evans was, and he was my demoscene programming idol at the time. I didn't hesitate to get both their autographs before going back home!
Alex Evans is statix/acme?
As I never was able to go to a democompo (rural west-coast Canadian upbringing), I have trouble picturing all these demoscene heroes of my youth as actual people...
Acme's 303 is one of my favourite demos of all time. Legend
It must have been amazing to intern with him!
As I never was able to go to a democompo (rural west-coast Canadian upbringing), I have trouble picturing all these demoscene heroes of my youth as actual people...
Acme's 303 is one of my favourite demos of all time. Legend
It must have been amazing to intern with him!
Yep, that's the one! I also enjoyed demoscene from afar in South Africa, and it wasn't until recent years that I was finally able to attend demoscene events here in Europe. Well, then COVID came along...
...cut your hair?
There were a bunch of internal mailing lists including the "water cooler" lhsocial, and one day (I was 19, please forgive me) I wrote that I had no idea where to get a hairdresser and anyone with scissors is welcome to have a go.
So he called me out in the middle of a Friday all hands meeting and, well, kept his side of the deal :)
So he called me out in the middle of a Friday all hands meeting and, well, kept his side of the deal :)
That is so cool. I love serendipitous stuff like this.
I'm envisioning something like the hair cut scene in 'Russian Doll.'
Ah right, the Paper demo guy!
He went on to do a bit more than that ;) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Gce4l5orts
He actually just announced that he's going to take a break from working in gamedev for the first time https://twitter.com/mmalex/status/1301476401611145218
He actually just announced that he's going to take a break from working in gamedev for the first time https://twitter.com/mmalex/status/1301476401611145218
There's also the "Populous Classic Game Postmortem" from GDC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIaK6y5kdro
Tons more vids like this: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheMakingOfGames/
Tons more vids like this: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheMakingOfGames/
The flamethrower in Syndicate was the best. I can still hear the screams.
Also being able to 'persuade' large groups of people to form a human-crowd shield was quite delightful.
If this caught your interest, I highly recommend the Kim Justice youtube series on Molyneux.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAuvaAGnqQw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAuvaAGnqQw
I was just watching another mostly Molyneux centered documentary:
30 Years of God Game History | Populous, Dungeon Keeper, Black & White, Spore and more
https://youtu.be/gt4-tBFIcsI
When I was 16 I beta-tested Black & White at Lionhead Studios, and met Peter Molyneux and his team. They were my heroes at the time, as I dreamt of one day being a game developer. I stayed by myself in a B&B, testing the game all day, reading my coding books and copies of EDGE magazine :)
I remember Peter telling his team that if the game went well he'd take the whole team (around 40 people, IIRC) on a big yacht. It was all very exciting!
Peter came and chatted with me and the other tests (most of who were about 10, and friends of the kids of the other developers), and asked about my interest in programming. I told him I'd been working on a snakes like game, and he said he'd love to look at the code, which sadly I didn't have (no laptops back in those days, and I didn't bring a floppy).
I never ended up becoming a game developer. I discovered web development, and startups, and never looked back :)
I remember Peter telling his team that if the game went well he'd take the whole team (around 40 people, IIRC) on a big yacht. It was all very exciting!
Peter came and chatted with me and the other tests (most of who were about 10, and friends of the kids of the other developers), and asked about my interest in programming. I told him I'd been working on a snakes like game, and he said he'd love to look at the code, which sadly I didn't have (no laptops back in those days, and I didn't bring a floppy).
I never ended up becoming a game developer. I discovered web development, and startups, and never looked back :)
Populous, Powermonger, Magic Carpet, loved them all. Dungeon Keeper (which the article doesn't mention) is still one of my top 10 games.
Black and White... OK, yeah, I enjoyed them, but it always felt like the full experience wasn't developed. It talked the talk but never walked the walk.
then... Godus. Yeah. Good concept, I played > 50 hours on it. but it never delivered at all.
It's like the more able the hardware and software was to deliver Molyneux's vision, the less deliverable his vision was.
Black and White... OK, yeah, I enjoyed them, but it always felt like the full experience wasn't developed. It talked the talk but never walked the walk.
then... Godus. Yeah. Good concept, I played > 50 hours on it. but it never delivered at all.
It's like the more able the hardware and software was to deliver Molyneux's vision, the less deliverable his vision was.
I'm not sure it's to do with more capable software or hardware. Instead it was far more about economic incentives. When Molyneux was earlier in his career he had strong constraints from his bosses and from his publishers. This forced the compromises needed to actually deliver achievable visions. As his reputation grew and he had more and more power in those relationships he was less and less constrained to adhere to an achievable vision. By the time of Black and White core parts of the game were just unbalanced and the economics of the game were broken because it was busy with the creature gimick. By the time you got to 22 cans he owned the company, he didn't need a publisher, hell he could just kickstarter the games. So suddenly all bets were off, he could make any promise he wanted and there was no one around to actually force him to deliver something.
I don't think Molyneux would've created Populous if he had had the reputation he has today. He would, and did, create Godus instead.
I don't think Molyneux would've created Populous if he had had the reputation he has today. He would, and did, create Godus instead.
I feel his strength was being an endless fountain of interesting ideas combined with ability to inspire lots of hard work from his development team.
I forget if it was Dungeon Keeper or Black and White where they talked to the development team while he was on a junket and they had no idea about of a bunch of the features he was promising.
Ultimately I think he had a really talented team at Bullfrog who slowly burned out and over time people were less willing to kill themselves on death marches trying to carry out his whims.
> Godus. Yeah. Good concept, I played > 50 hours on it. but it never delivered at all.
That was a painful year or so. So many restarts and hopeful explorations only for it to.. never in any useful way ever give the game it promised.
A shame, as the basic mechanics were seemingly all there - I never could wrap my head around what went wrong.
The worst of it though is I now can't stand to listen to a childhood hero's bullshit.
It's ok, I still have Populous II and Syndicate on WinUAE
That was a painful year or so. So many restarts and hopeful explorations only for it to.. never in any useful way ever give the game it promised.
A shame, as the basic mechanics were seemingly all there - I never could wrap my head around what went wrong.
The worst of it though is I now can't stand to listen to a childhood hero's bullshit.
It's ok, I still have Populous II and Syndicate on WinUAE
The first time I heard a musician refuse to interpret their own song, I found it odd. It made a little more sense as I got older and heard more examples.
When I started seeing people talk about the personalities behind video game franchises, it made a lot more sense. We don't need all of your vision, just some clues.
When I started seeing people talk about the personalities behind video game franchises, it made a lot more sense. We don't need all of your vision, just some clues.
So, I don't have much else to add to the discussion, apart from that my company is located in a co-working space in Guildford, in an office one floor directly below where the Bullfrog offices moved after Populous. We do have their original floormat [0], and a lot of stories, courtesy of the original Glenn Corpes who worked on the artwork for that game.
[0] https://imgur.com/a/YBzp0tc
[0] https://imgur.com/a/YBzp0tc
No mention of my favourite game of all time Theme Hospital, or project lead Mark Webley :( Nor the company he and Molyneux started which lead to the widely popular game Fable
Barf cascades! ;)
I have to say, I loved Theme Park more than the author did. Even at the age of 12 (I think?) when I got it I understood the cynical take it took on the whole industry and found it endlessly entertaining. I haven’t replayed it since (and judging by the article, won’t!) but I’ve got a lot of happy memories. By comparison Rollercoaster Tycoon never grabbed me, despite the fact that I enjoyed Transport Tycoon a lot. It just didn’t have the spark Theme Park had.
Same here. I tried to replicate the experience when developing SimAirport; I'm happy with the way the game turned out overall, though there will always be lots of things I want to tweak/change/improve. That said, Theme Park was and still is probably the most memorable & engaging gameplay experience I've ever had. I can still vividly recall building the "water slide" around my park to improve guest happiness, etc. Many prefer Theme Hospital or similar, but Theme Park will always be the game that really had an impact on me far more than any other game ever has.
I knew it must have been a man of culture behind it, sim airport strikes that nostalgic cord of mine like few other modern tycoons
I hadn’t heard of SimAirport, but you’ve just made a customer, very much looking forward to playing it this evening.
Love SimAirport
"How do you play this game?"
"The area shown has lots of hills and valleys. Your first job is to raise and lower the land to make it flat."
"That's the game?"
"Just for the first few minutes."
"The area shown has lots of hills and valleys. Your first job is to raise and lower the land to make it flat."
"That's the game?"
"Just for the first few minutes."
Powermonger was a cracking game, played it on the Amiga. Definitely unique graphics of the time, decent gameplay. I remember that and Mega lo Mania being great games of that time and genre. Populous I never got into that much, seemed like Elite in the procedurally generated sense but with Elite it was less obvious.
oh man, megalomania.. like nuclear war, so simple but so fun..
Theme Park was one of my favorite games as a child.
I enjoyed it immensely building out a theme park at first, for a long time. I constantly didn't do well though and always end up pretty much bankrupting on my first park, let alone expanding to other cities.
One day I read some sort of cheat/guide that to have a profitable park, you build Duck Shoots, and make the prizes worth less than the cost for each play, and make the winning percentages 100%. I put the Duck Shoot right at the entrance of the park and build the rest of the park around it. Every guest who comes in plays the Duck Shoot first and is happy they won, and I make a profit from every guest, and everyone is happy with a balloon prize.
This was my first lesson about its immorality. Strangely, the game became less fun after that. I was able to make profitable parks and expand to other cities. Then I stopped playing; and over the years, every time I tried to pick back up the game again, I find myself going through the motions of setting up that Duck Shoot trick because it was the only way I know to make money running a park, and then I quickly lose interest after that because all the researches and stuff were just a lot of work and it was boring having the same 4 rides until researches complete. It was a little bit like real life...
I enjoyed it immensely building out a theme park at first, for a long time. I constantly didn't do well though and always end up pretty much bankrupting on my first park, let alone expanding to other cities.
One day I read some sort of cheat/guide that to have a profitable park, you build Duck Shoots, and make the prizes worth less than the cost for each play, and make the winning percentages 100%. I put the Duck Shoot right at the entrance of the park and build the rest of the park around it. Every guest who comes in plays the Duck Shoot first and is happy they won, and I make a profit from every guest, and everyone is happy with a balloon prize.
This was my first lesson about its immorality. Strangely, the game became less fun after that. I was able to make profitable parks and expand to other cities. Then I stopped playing; and over the years, every time I tried to pick back up the game again, I find myself going through the motions of setting up that Duck Shoot trick because it was the only way I know to make money running a park, and then I quickly lose interest after that because all the researches and stuff were just a lot of work and it was boring having the same 4 rides until researches complete. It was a little bit like real life...
Ahh I've gotta find my buddy Glenn and tell him the game he did the artwork for, artwork which Royal Mail then minted _on a stamp_, is top of HN!
I played a bunch of Populous on Amiga as a young child, thinking a lot about ideas of God and civilization. It was a very unique experience for me to play that game; an awesome and terrifying feeling. It didn't explain anything. You push a button, sometimes it does nothing (not enough mana or whatever), sometimes the whole earth would shake and lives are destroyed. The feeling of satisfaction when castles are formed.
I remember the launcher desktop icon would be a hut. But when you double-click it turns into the castle. So friggin cool. Just the sense of mystery behind it all.
I remember the launcher desktop icon would be a hut. But when you double-click it turns into the castle. So friggin cool. Just the sense of mystery behind it all.
For me, Syndicate really changed my life. I had a Commodore 486 SLC, with 2 Mb RAM. But I'd seen the game at my friend's house, so I knew that I needed this game in my life. There was only one thing to do, and that was to kill sweet pink piggy, and off to the store I went to buy 2 more megs of RAM. And then... Minigun-toting cyborgs!
I expected to see Dungeon Keeper on that list. A remarkably cheeky, dark and funny game which I played way too much as a kid.
[deleted]
Yeah! Dungeon Keeper is the first game I played from bullfrog
I liked a lot about Dungeon Keeper but there was just zero strategy or challenge to it. The combat ruined it for me - if someone invaded your dungeon, all you had to do was pick up 20 odd high-level monsters and drop them on top of the invader. All the monster stats, spells, special abilities etc. became meaningless.
Not sure how it would work with RTS style movement or even turn based combat but being able to instantly teleport your units to where you needed them didn't make any sense to me in terms of game design.
Not sure how it would work with RTS style movement or even turn based combat but being able to instantly teleport your units to where you needed them didn't make any sense to me in terms of game design.
Yeah, the combat was pretty much an afterthought. They didn't even bother to rework it in the sequel, they just added a token nuisance in the form of monster dropping stun.
Hi-Octane remains one of my favourite racers, and Syndicate Wars (yes, post-EA purchase) is still a fantastically fun game.
Hi-Octane was great. And it was built in just 6 weeks[1].
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hi-Octane
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hi-Octane
There's a little too much hero worship in this article for my taste. Molyneux is not some wide-eyed dreamer whose hopes keep getting dashed by the mean nasty world. He's a serial liar who may have started out simply being too hopeful but has spent the last fifteen years lying to gain investors and happily screwing as many people on the back end as he can get away with. For example, he built the entire premise and hype over his Cube mobile game about having one single winner who could share or keep the prize. Bryan Henderson won it and the prize turned out to be a major role in Molyneux's next game Godus. Except giving out prizes doesn't make Peter any money so he told Henderson to go fuck himself and never contacted him again.
What was interesting was the cube game was actually kinda fun to play in a odd way. They could have kept that going for awhile. Like reset the cube every few months or something. Different shapes etc. Godus started of interesting but went sideways quickly and tried to turn itself into a pay to play game. No whales showed up for that because that is not what people bought. Then the resets of game progress every few weeks and people gave up on it.
His Cube game was the epitome of dopamine addiction games, all that was wrong with Zynga/Facebook games, the rage at the time. Nothing at all original about that: a total cop-out of game design.
When Peter Molyneux gave his insufferably vainglorious keynote presentation of Cube at the Unity3D Unite conference at Westergasfabriek in Amsterdam, I chatted him up afterwards and attempted to troll him by guessing that the big surprise in the box was a cow.
I don't think he got the point that I was trying to make an ironic reference to Ian Bogost's Cow Clicker, which is a parody of and social commentary on dopamine games.
I tried to explain the joke to him, and he still didn't get it. At least Ian Bogost had the self awareness to design Cow Clicker in the service of making a critical statement about game design, and the capacity of shame to be embarrassed when it was an accidental run-away success.
Unite 2012 : Keynote - Founders & Peter Molyneux (The BS starts at 1h 8m 21s -- It's been 8 years since I saw this live, and it's much worse than I remembered, especially now knowing how it turned out!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24AY4fJ66xA&t=1h08m21s
>1h 48m 06s, with arms spread out like Jesus H Christ on a crucifix: "Because we can dynamically put on ANY surface of the cube ANY image we like. So THAT's how we're going to surprise the world, is by giving clues about what's in the middle later on."
http://www.cowclicker.com/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cow_Clicker
>In the wake of a controversial speech by Zynga's president at the Game Developers Choice Awards in 2010, Bogost developed Cow Clicker for a presentation at a New York University seminar on social gaming in July 2010. The game was created to demonstrate what Bogost felt were the most commonly abused mechanics of social games, such as the promotion of social interaction and monetization rather than the artistic aspects of the medium. As the game unexpectedly began to grow in popularity, Bogost also used Cow Clicker to parody other recent gaming trends, such as gamification, educational apps, and alternate reality games.
>Some critics praised Cow Clicker for its dissection of the common mechanics of social network games and viewed it as a commentary on how social games affect people.
https://qz.com/34024/life-really-is-a-game-with-a-lot-of-cli...
>Life really is a game—with a lot of clicks—and then you die
>Curiosity is just the latest in a series of social experiments that rely on user interactions with seemingly no point. Of course, Zynga is the king of this phenomenon, providing games full of sticky and addictive action that encourage more clicks for the sake of clicks. Arbitrary value becomes real value, even when it’s not meant to. Just ask Ian Bogost, who created the satirical social game Cow Clicker that went on to such absurd popularity that he felt compelled to continue developing it, trapping himself in an ironic loop that refuses to end. In Cow Clicker, you literally click one cow every six hours to collect Mooney, which lets you buy other cows to click on.
When Peter Molyneux gave his insufferably vainglorious keynote presentation of Cube at the Unity3D Unite conference at Westergasfabriek in Amsterdam, I chatted him up afterwards and attempted to troll him by guessing that the big surprise in the box was a cow.
I don't think he got the point that I was trying to make an ironic reference to Ian Bogost's Cow Clicker, which is a parody of and social commentary on dopamine games.
I tried to explain the joke to him, and he still didn't get it. At least Ian Bogost had the self awareness to design Cow Clicker in the service of making a critical statement about game design, and the capacity of shame to be embarrassed when it was an accidental run-away success.
Unite 2012 : Keynote - Founders & Peter Molyneux (The BS starts at 1h 8m 21s -- It's been 8 years since I saw this live, and it's much worse than I remembered, especially now knowing how it turned out!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24AY4fJ66xA&t=1h08m21s
>1h 48m 06s, with arms spread out like Jesus H Christ on a crucifix: "Because we can dynamically put on ANY surface of the cube ANY image we like. So THAT's how we're going to surprise the world, is by giving clues about what's in the middle later on."
http://www.cowclicker.com/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cow_Clicker
>In the wake of a controversial speech by Zynga's president at the Game Developers Choice Awards in 2010, Bogost developed Cow Clicker for a presentation at a New York University seminar on social gaming in July 2010. The game was created to demonstrate what Bogost felt were the most commonly abused mechanics of social games, such as the promotion of social interaction and monetization rather than the artistic aspects of the medium. As the game unexpectedly began to grow in popularity, Bogost also used Cow Clicker to parody other recent gaming trends, such as gamification, educational apps, and alternate reality games.
>Some critics praised Cow Clicker for its dissection of the common mechanics of social network games and viewed it as a commentary on how social games affect people.
https://qz.com/34024/life-really-is-a-game-with-a-lot-of-cli...
>Life really is a game—with a lot of clicks—and then you die
>Curiosity is just the latest in a series of social experiments that rely on user interactions with seemingly no point. Of course, Zynga is the king of this phenomenon, providing games full of sticky and addictive action that encourage more clicks for the sake of clicks. Arbitrary value becomes real value, even when it’s not meant to. Just ask Ian Bogost, who created the satirical social game Cow Clicker that went on to such absurd popularity that he felt compelled to continue developing it, trapping himself in an ironic loop that refuses to end. In Cow Clicker, you literally click one cow every six hours to collect Mooney, which lets you buy other cows to click on.
Henderson didn't receive money since Godus was not profitable — which is not surprising, since it wasn't that good.
I don't think it's fair to call a developer a `serial liar` when they say they are working on a great game and then fail.
Failing is commonplace.
I don't think it's fair to call a developer a `serial liar` when they say they are working on a great game and then fail.
Failing is commonplace.
That is not true. Henderson was promised a role as "God of gods" and one percent of revenue during his tenure. Molyneux simply decided not to implement the role of God of gods in the game and gave Henderson nothing. In his BAFTA acceptance speech he admitted he "makes up game features on the spot to keep game journalists from falling asleep". Peter Molyneux is so full of shit his eyes are brown.
It's totally fair, and Causality1's GP comment is spot on and unfairly downvoted. See the links in my other post.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24380281
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24380281
I read the interview in rockpaperscissors and he seemed like a good faith person. The Godus game, well he put it in Kickstarter, and he actually filled most of the promises, but as you should expect from Kickstarter, any pledge should be viewed as bet. People that know Molyneux better won't give pledges as he loves overestimating and overhyping things. Nevertheless, the interview teached him to be more careful when making estimates and promises.
Nope, he didn't learn a thing.
>Feb 3, 2016: Serial over-promiser Peter Molyneux promises to stop over-promising. Designer breaks a year of self-imposed press exile with reflective interview.
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/02/serial-over-promiser-...
He should have kept his earlier promise from a year earlier, and never spoken to the press again:
>Feb 13, 2015: Peter Molyneux interview: 'It's over, I will not speak to the press again'. The veteran game designer is at the centre of a raging controversy over his new game Godus. He says he is finished with the press.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/feb/13/peter-mol...
>Feb 3, 2016: Serial over-promiser Peter Molyneux promises to stop over-promising. Designer breaks a year of self-imposed press exile with reflective interview.
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/02/serial-over-promiser-...
He should have kept his earlier promise from a year earlier, and never spoken to the press again:
>Feb 13, 2015: Peter Molyneux interview: 'It's over, I will not speak to the press again'. The veteran game designer is at the centre of a raging controversy over his new game Godus. He says he is finished with the press.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/feb/13/peter-mol...
He's completely right about hero worship. The article is titled "Bullfrog after Populous", but it leaves an impression Bullfrog was one person. Literally not a single other employee is mentioned by name! There are around 36 paragraphs in the article* and 9 do not contain the word Molyneux.
Sure the guy was talented, but quite possibly a credit-hogging narcissist too. And an effective one.
* not counting blockquotes by you-know-who
Sure the guy was talented, but quite possibly a credit-hogging narcissist too. And an effective one.
* not counting blockquotes by you-know-who
yeah, he had great ideas and vision, but delivery was often shoddy, inconsistent or resulted in outright annoying mechanics/sections (guildmaster combat multiplier suggestions on repeat)
I wouldn't outright call them lies tho, probably more like he was asking a little too much from that age technology.
I wouldn't outright call them lies tho, probably more like he was asking a little too much from that age technology.
I used to hear Magic Carpet sounds in TV shows and movies quite often once. Not anymore though.
The essential subliminal concept of Magic Carpet is that you're a dog running around peeing on things to possess them, again and again as your pee smell fades. That's why it's so great! It taps into and satisfies deeply seated behavior in your dog brain.
Yes - the speeding "whoosh" sound reminds me of it every time: https://youtu.be/m3zsPl4Ampw?t=607
Also used in the Doom 2 final boss (spoilers): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh9nzvgJYFo&feature=youtu.be...
Related: The origins of Doom's sound effects: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bgFpss0YFE
Sound effect in question (104/107) is "FIRE, BALL - IMPACT AND LARGE FIRE BURST, RUMBLE" from The General Series 6000 Sound Effects Library
Sound effect in question (104/107) is "FIRE, BALL - IMPACT AND LARGE FIRE BURST, RUMBLE" from The General Series 6000 Sound Effects Library
Of course someone’s posted it to YouTube: https://youtu.be/qhl_W3qVvuM
Yes. That was it!
I always wondered how that happened. No copyright?
I always wondered how that happened. No copyright?
There were sound effect samplers that went around on CD back in those days. Presumably purchasing the CD came with a license to use the effects in your projects. There was also a wind noise sound that found its way into many different game and motion picture productions that I always instantly recognized.
I remember the pig noise (farm?) from Warcraft 2 would crop up in all sorts of random places
The life of sound effects is a strange thing, with its own semi-commercial ecosystem. Read about The Wilheim Scream (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_scream) for a glimpse into how they move from one production to another.
There are various sound effects libraries that offer premade effects clearable with simple terms. So it’s simply different teams taking the same sound off a library CD / website.
Flood is treated unfairly. It has a nice difficulty increase and is an enjoyable platformer with a few twists. Water fills the levels gradually and you can stick on most of the walls. It has a really neat aesthetic too.
I've actually gone back and played the game and it's held up surprisingly well.
Long play video of the game : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EbGjm_x808
I've actually gone back and played the game and it's held up surprisingly well.
Long play video of the game : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EbGjm_x808
Peter Molydeux:
https://twitter.com/petermolydeux
https://twitter.com/PeterMolydeux/status/1287527427355410439
@PeterMolydeux: Imagine a dating sim where you answer questions about yourself but then find you’re playing as the love interest. You discover that ‘you’ are actually an amazing and wonderful person and fall in love with yourself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Molydeux
Peter Molydeux is a Twitter account presented as a parody of the game designer Peter Molyneux. Created by game artist Adam Capone in 2009, it posts audacious game design ideas in the style of Molyneux. The account presents Molyneux as a tragicomic character with unrelenting, creative ideas that are continually received by an apathetic audience. Over time, the account evolved from a Molyneux-based persona into a list of potential game concepts. A common theme of the tweets is the untapped potential of emotional game experiences. Molyneux came to appreciate the parody, and has since met Capone in person.
I imagined him going through the supermarket with a digital recorder and coming up with ideas while shopping ... And over dinner, he's rearranging his peas and saying. 'Is this giving me a game idea?' And his wife is saying, 'Shut up, Peter. Just eat your food.' –Capone (Molydeux) on Molyneux
Some of the parody account's proposals include:
A racing game in which the player controls the road instead of the vehicle
A Kinect game in which the player must cry to open a gate
An eight-person online multiplayer game in which each player controls one leg of an octopus
The final segment of a war game, in which the player pauses in silence at the tombstone of each KIA recruit
A 3D adventure game in which the amnesiac player awakens in a museum with a room dedicated to each year of the character's life
The player holds a radioactive baby, which acts as a torch in a dark environment; rocking the baby increases its luminescence
The player pretends to be blind and must walk into objects to avoid suspicion
A bear must hug people in order to live, but crushes the people he hugs
A pigeon carries sentimental objects to businessmen to persuade them not to kill themselves
A divorced father sneaks into his family house to help with chores without alerting them
When the player kills henchmen in one game, the player sees recurring images of those henchmen's crying children in an unrelated sports video game
A version of Street Fighter in which streets fight other streets
https://twitter.com/petermolydeux
https://twitter.com/PeterMolydeux/status/1287527427355410439
@PeterMolydeux: Imagine a dating sim where you answer questions about yourself but then find you’re playing as the love interest. You discover that ‘you’ are actually an amazing and wonderful person and fall in love with yourself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Molydeux
Peter Molydeux is a Twitter account presented as a parody of the game designer Peter Molyneux. Created by game artist Adam Capone in 2009, it posts audacious game design ideas in the style of Molyneux. The account presents Molyneux as a tragicomic character with unrelenting, creative ideas that are continually received by an apathetic audience. Over time, the account evolved from a Molyneux-based persona into a list of potential game concepts. A common theme of the tweets is the untapped potential of emotional game experiences. Molyneux came to appreciate the parody, and has since met Capone in person.
I imagined him going through the supermarket with a digital recorder and coming up with ideas while shopping ... And over dinner, he's rearranging his peas and saying. 'Is this giving me a game idea?' And his wife is saying, 'Shut up, Peter. Just eat your food.' –Capone (Molydeux) on Molyneux
Some of the parody account's proposals include:
A racing game in which the player controls the road instead of the vehicle
A Kinect game in which the player must cry to open a gate
An eight-person online multiplayer game in which each player controls one leg of an octopus
The final segment of a war game, in which the player pauses in silence at the tombstone of each KIA recruit
A 3D adventure game in which the amnesiac player awakens in a museum with a room dedicated to each year of the character's life
The player holds a radioactive baby, which acts as a torch in a dark environment; rocking the baby increases its luminescence
The player pretends to be blind and must walk into objects to avoid suspicion
A bear must hug people in order to live, but crushes the people he hugs
A pigeon carries sentimental objects to businessmen to persuade them not to kill themselves
A divorced father sneaks into his family house to help with chores without alerting them
When the player kills henchmen in one game, the player sees recurring images of those henchmen's crying children in an unrelated sports video game
A version of Street Fighter in which streets fight other streets
> An eight-person online multiplayer game in which each player controls one leg of an octopus
This could be fun. Depends on the controls and lag. Offline mode please!
This could be fun. Depends on the controls and lag. Offline mode please!
I always wanted an MMPORG version of SimAnt.
https://powerhoof.itch.io/regular-human-basketball
Powerhoof has some great pixel art adventure games too.
Powerhoof has some great pixel art adventure games too.
Octodad has an offline 4 player mode like this.
It’s actually pretty hilarious. I’ve played it with my 3 sons a few times, and it’s especially great if you randomize who has what limb after each achievement
Blind and walk into objects to avoid suspicion - this has pretty much been done in Spy Party. One person plays as a sniper, another as a randomly chosen character in a party who is, in fact, a spy. The spy must accomplish a couple of objectives.
While listening to a radio broadcast about Mongolia, I had an idea for a game. Mongolians have many horse races, and they always reward the horse. Also, Mongolian legends often pay more attention to what the horse did (rather than the rider). Isn't it a fun idea for a game? Medieval setting, you fight other knights and armed men, except you play as the horse and not the rider. The rider is more like an upgrade and AI-controlled.
While listening to a radio broadcast about Mongolia, I had an idea for a game. Mongolians have many horse races, and they always reward the horse. Also, Mongolian legends often pay more attention to what the horse did (rather than the rider). Isn't it a fun idea for a game? Medieval setting, you fight other knights and armed men, except you play as the horse and not the rider. The rider is more like an upgrade and AI-controlled.
Where is Project Milo?
We may have Final Fantasy 15 and The Last Guardian, but who cares when mankind's greatest achievement is still nowhere to be found?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czcSxnBlW0A
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Milo
We may have Final Fantasy 15 and The Last Guardian, but who cares when mankind's greatest achievement is still nowhere to be found?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czcSxnBlW0A
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Milo
As little kids we used to play Theme Park with a friend of mine. After we got bored with the game we used to create parks called sth like "Filthy sh*tter" and try to make them the most hideous places ever. No cleaning service, garbage lying all around, kids throwing up on the pathways and so on. For some reason this felt as rewarding as building a fully functional park...
Populous II was one of the first video games I remember loving wholeheartedly.
Molyneux rolled big dice and often lost. When he won, though, he won big.
Molyneux rolled big dice and often lost. When he won, though, he won big.
Have there been any recent games as good as populous? I was thinking about this and how good the game Dungeon Keeper were
Empire Earth II (and I guess one as well) - is a similar experience that I have enjoyed for many hours since retiring the Amiga.. not so modern these days sadly. I found one of the cdroms for it not long ago.
If someone would please make Empire Earth III happen, it would be greatly appreciated.
If someone would please make Empire Earth III happen, it would be greatly appreciated.
Just one piece of art that I miss in the article
https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullfrog_Productions#/media/...
https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullfrog_Productions#/media/...
Speaking of weird old and unique games, does anyone remember Lords of Chaos?
Its a 1v1 Wizard game where you spend the early game summoning creatures, exploring the map and picking up ingredients before brewing potions and fighting your enemy before the map explodes around you.
Its a 1v1 Wizard game where you spend the early game summoning creatures, exploring the map and picking up ingredients before brewing potions and fighting your enemy before the map explodes around you.
Loved that as a kid on the spectrum, a great sequel to chaos. Iirc you could actually hot seat 4 players on some maps?
Check out chaos reborn on steam for a reasonable modern update.
Check out chaos reborn on steam for a reasonable modern update.
I wish they had gone into to talk about Dungeon Keeper.
"Micro piglets stalk your dungeon, beware!"
"Micro piglets stalk your dungeon, beware!"
I still remember beating Zeus in Level 999 of Populous II by spreading the plague to all his followers. This memory feels strangely up-to-date in our days of a world wide pandemic.
It astounds me that there isn't a mobile version of Populous.
It seems like the perfect interface for it, and I can't understand why there wouldn't be a market for it.
It seems like the perfect interface for it, and I can't understand why there wouldn't be a market for it.
I think this is what they really intended Godus to become - a sort of idle clicky grind game with pleasing, but essentially shallow, interaction, and no more.
Unfortunately, some of us were caught up in Molyneaux's breathless inflatory hype and thought it was going to be Populous X.
- ed
Unfortunately, some of us were caught up in Molyneaux's breathless inflatory hype and thought it was going to be Populous X.
- ed
Because it would be too tempting to shake the phone and brutally kill all your minions.
Syndicate was their best game - thanks Sean Cooper
I love his earlier games (especially DK), and his games deeply influenced The Sims (especially Theme Hospital, which I stayed late at work playing obsessively into the night while working on The Sims architectural tools), but how Peter Molyneux neglected that poor kid who he promised to make a god was unnecessarily and unforgivably cruel. How hard would have it been for him to simply pick up the phone and apologize?
>The Game Designer Who Promised to Make a Man God. It's not going so well.
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/nze9gg/the-game-designer-...
>The God who Peter Molyneux forgot. For Curiosity winner Bryan Henderson, the prize inside the cube has been anything but life-changing.
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-02-11-the-god-who-pe...
>The god who Peter Molyneux forgot wants his cut of a new game bundle to go to charity instead. "It felt very bizarre to me."
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-02-26-bryan-henderso...
>The Man Who Promised Too Much
https://kotaku.com/the-man-who-promised-too-much-1537352493
>Serial over-promiser Peter Molyneux promises to stop over-promising. Designer breaks a year of self-imposed press exile with reflective interview.
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/02/serial-over-promiser-...
>Peter Molyneux's God Game Is Looking Like Yet Another Disappointment
https://www.wired.com/2015/02/molyneux-godus-kickstarter/
>Peter Molyneux interview: 'It's over, I will not speak to the press again'. The veteran game designer is at the centre of a raging controversy over his new game Godus. He says he is finished with the press.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/feb/13/peter-mol...
>The Lesson of Peter Molyneux. “Sooner or later the bullshit has to stop.”
https://techcrunch.com/2015/02/15/the-lesson-of-peter-molyne...
>Why Peter Molyneux's Godus is Such a Disaster
https://www.techspot.com/article/964-peter-molyneux-godus-di...
>The Game Designer Who Promised to Make a Man God. It's not going so well.
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/nze9gg/the-game-designer-...
>The God who Peter Molyneux forgot. For Curiosity winner Bryan Henderson, the prize inside the cube has been anything but life-changing.
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-02-11-the-god-who-pe...
>The god who Peter Molyneux forgot wants his cut of a new game bundle to go to charity instead. "It felt very bizarre to me."
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-02-26-bryan-henderso...
>The Man Who Promised Too Much
https://kotaku.com/the-man-who-promised-too-much-1537352493
>Serial over-promiser Peter Molyneux promises to stop over-promising. Designer breaks a year of self-imposed press exile with reflective interview.
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/02/serial-over-promiser-...
>Peter Molyneux's God Game Is Looking Like Yet Another Disappointment
https://www.wired.com/2015/02/molyneux-godus-kickstarter/
>Peter Molyneux interview: 'It's over, I will not speak to the press again'. The veteran game designer is at the centre of a raging controversy over his new game Godus. He says he is finished with the press.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/feb/13/peter-mol...
>The Lesson of Peter Molyneux. “Sooner or later the bullshit has to stop.”
https://techcrunch.com/2015/02/15/the-lesson-of-peter-molyne...
>Why Peter Molyneux's Godus is Such a Disaster
https://www.techspot.com/article/964-peter-molyneux-godus-di...
Nobody liked Flood? I loved it! Dropping tons of bouncing grenades into a shaft was fun!
Peter made such great games: Populous, Dungeon Keeper, Black and White.
> new genre which the media labelled the “god game”
I haven't picked up PC Gamer in a while, but I remember a few years back, all the "Sim" and "Tycoon" type games were under the genre: Management
I haven't picked up PC Gamer in a while, but I remember a few years back, all the "Sim" and "Tycoon" type games were under the genre: Management
From now on, I shall think of "prayer" as "speaking to the manager".
Yeah, like a lot of genres it didn't end up collecting enough memorable entries to stay a distinct genre over the decades. Was definitely a thing for a while though.
iirc populous was in the strategy genre at review time
I don't understand why the article claims that Theme Park's view on such parks is cynical, as if "theme parks did not focus on user experience". They don't. Every single theme park out there has hours of waiting lines to do just anything. How is that even a good experience to begin with?
This comment is such a broad generalization that it boarders on useless.
I remember Bullfrog's programming tutorials in Amiga format [0]. If that was all you had (it was all i had) then it wasn't enough to let you write your own games or learn enough to get a job.
I got my parents to buy me a book on 68000 assembly to go with it, only to find that the Devpac assembler from the tutorial didn't come with any of the OS include files, so I couldn't get past the second chapter. These kinds of setbacks were typical.
When I think back to those days, I loved the Amiga community and magazines, I loved the seemingly accessible, informal world of game development, but it was so damn hard to just climb the first step and learn to code if you didn't have much money.
[0] https://archive.org/details/AmigaFormatIssue039199210_201901...