Microsoft job posting suggests a major user interface update expected in 2021(zdnet.com)
zdnet.com
Microsoft job posting suggests a major user interface update expected in 2021
https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-plans-sweeping-design-changes-to-show-that-windows-is-back
224 comments
Ironically today I tried to pair a Bluetooth device on my wife's Surface Pro 4 and I told her to hit the Windows key and start typing Bluetooth and then select the result for managing bluetooth devices. She opened it up and we were unable to add the Bluetooth device no matter what we did. It was the most frustrating experience I had in months (I am a macOS and Linux user). Later I discovered that there is an entire different Bluetooth managing app on Windows. One had the old school look, the other had some modern oversized bullshit look. Turns out one of those two worked, the other didn't. Windows search returned the non working one first. In the taskbar was a Bluetooth icon to the other one. WTAF?
Honestly, fuck Windows for being such an utter pile of shit.
They don't need a UI re-design. They need a fucking working operating system.
Honestly, fuck Windows for being such an utter pile of shit.
They don't need a UI re-design. They need a fucking working operating system.
Later I discovered that there is an entire different Bluetooth managing app on Windows.
Oh, see, I thought this was going to end differently. Like how you typed in "Bluetooth settings" and Windows decided to bring up a web page with instructions on how to change the Bluetooth settings on Windows 10, instead of showing the g-ddamned applet.
Because that's how it seems to work on my machine most of the time.
Oh, see, I thought this was going to end differently. Like how you typed in "Bluetooth settings" and Windows decided to bring up a web page with instructions on how to change the Bluetooth settings on Windows 10, instead of showing the g-ddamned applet.
Because that's how it seems to work on my machine most of the time.
WIN+"calc" opened up a Bing search for the term "calc" inside of Edge for me the other day. I imagine in a few more years that will actually be the expected behavior.
Try Win+R, "calc", OK. They haven't messed with the run dialog, so it still works like it did in Windows 95: quickly and reliably.
B-but Bing points! Support a charity or win Xbox with your aimless searches!
How to quickly open an app on Windows 10:
1. Hit Windows key and type name of the app. 2. Hit backspace until the app tops the result list instead of web results.
Does this make any sense? Nope...
1. Hit Windows key and type name of the app. 2. Hit backspace until the app tops the result list instead of web results.
Does this make any sense? Nope...
counterpoint - maybe MS telemetry shows that people don't actually like to use apps in Windows 10 and thus it makes more sense to show web searches!
I was expecting that the application wouldn't appear at all, whatever they tried.
The number of common failure modes on the main interaction the Windows DE supports (that is opening the start menu and launching a program) is just incredible.
The number of common failure modes on the main interaction the Windows DE supports (that is opening the start menu and launching a program) is just incredible.
Which is why I disable web search on the group policy panel.
This should be the default behavior.
Surely MS could look at their telemetry data they collect on absolutely everything and tell what people are disabling or otherwise modifying. The default of course will be "person does nothing" because most people have an adversarial relationship with their technology -- it must do what they want or they work around / cease to use it.
Surely MS could look at their telemetry data they collect on absolutely everything and tell what people are disabling or otherwise modifying. The default of course will be "person does nothing" because most people have an adversarial relationship with their technology -- it must do what they want or they work around / cease to use it.
Then Bing would loose out on all that accidental traffic that still counts as traffic for selling ads.
Is the start menu listening to that setting again? I had to block it in the firewall.
What Microsoft should be doing with this "Windows is back" initiative is comprehensively rethinking everything below the launcher and window management level. The visual presentation could follow the very same "fluent" system or whatever it is Microsoft is calling its current design language, but all the stuff from Control Panel to mounting network shares would be harmonized with the same UI metaphors and mental models.
What Microsoft almost certainly will do is yet another pass at launchers and window widgets, leaving its three-decades-deep sediment of system functionality largely untouched.
What Microsoft almost certainly will do is yet another pass at launchers and window widgets, leaving its three-decades-deep sediment of system functionality largely untouched.
Couldn't agree more. The pragmatist in me would rather MS understand that people don't want quarter inch drills, they want quarter inch holes, and yet another part of me wonders how they could freshen up the UI. But what I want more than anything else is consistency. Either is fine, but both aren't.
Later I discovered that there is an entire different Bluetooth managing app on Windows.
And another for sound settings etc. It's like every setting has this evil twin which is there only to deceive you.
Why? Whose idea was this? To what end? I would really like to know the answers to these questions.
And another for sound settings etc. It's like every setting has this evil twin which is there only to deceive you.
Why? Whose idea was this? To what end? I would really like to know the answers to these questions.
Ah yes, the so-called Metro apps. I believe they were part of the half-assed attempt by Windows 8 to work well with tablets and such.
Welcome to the new non-complete blue Control panel for Windows.
There was a time where opening the control panel gave you a view of all subsystems. I hardly remember it anymore. A faint memory.
There was a time where opening the control panel gave you a view of all subsystems. I hardly remember it anymore. A faint memory.
The Control Panel in "small icons" or "large icons" viewing mode defaults to organizing the contents into columns. That's OK, that's pretty easy to read through.
The contents are also in alphabetical order. That's good, too, it's something the user is likely to expect.
Within the columns, the contents are not organized alphabetically! Instead the alphabetical ordering completely ignores the very clear column structure. Who does this?!
The contents are also in alphabetical order. That's good, too, it's something the user is likely to expect.
Within the columns, the contents are not organized alphabetically! Instead the alphabetical ordering completely ignores the very clear column structure. Who does this?!
If you’re interested, look up “God Mode” it’s a shortcut that can be created which gives you access to a complete control panel which covers everything.
It seems that God isn't omnipotent. God mode still doesn't allow me to tell my machine that I want to open .jpeg files with the Adobe Photoshop installed on my machine (like I can with .jpg) and not Photoshop Elements available through the Microsoft store). There is no option to search my file system for an arbitrary .exe.
Thats a hack done not by Microsoft but probably a frustrated user who needed all subststems under a god damn umbrella.
I hate Microsoft Windows with a passion but I have to stick to it because of work reasons
I hate Microsoft Windows with a passion but I have to stick to it because of work reasons
You name a folder with a specific GUID and then the control panels show up inside it. It's by Microsoft.
Desktop UIs are hardly mature, but for the last 15 years UI innovation has been about putting lipstick on a pig rather than deep-diving subsystems and figuring out how to graphically represent and control them.
Designers aren't doing subsystem deep-dives, they're just implementing subsets of existing wholly inadequate GUIs using new widgets. Conversely, systems people who understand the un-GUIed subsystems aren't doing design work to better expose them, or expose them at all. It's an unproductive and frustrating stalemate.
Designers aren't doing subsystem deep-dives, they're just implementing subsets of existing wholly inadequate GUIs using new widgets. Conversely, systems people who understand the un-GUIed subsystems aren't doing design work to better expose them, or expose them at all. It's an unproductive and frustrating stalemate.
> Desktop UIs are hardly mature, but for the last 15 years UI innovation has been about putting lipstick on a pig rather than deep-diving subsystems and figuring out how to graphically represent and control them.
I disagree. To various degrees, the last "15 years of [desktop] UI innovation" have been trying to push trendy touch UI concepts into places where they don't belong.
I disagree. To various degrees, the last "15 years of [desktop] UI innovation" have been trying to push trendy touch UI concepts into places where they don't belong.
Desktop UIs are mature, and were such by the end of '00s, in the sense that they've made the best use of the keyboard and mouse. Sure, it's okay to add subtle new things, like window snapping on Windows (the thing where you drag it to the edge of the screen) or inertial scrolling on macOS. It's absolutely not okay to take a perfectly functional and polished UI and "refresh" it with disproportional controls and huge fonts because people now carry phones in their pockets. The only good reason for a complete UI redesign is change in the way it's interacted with, for example because some novel kind of input device came about. But then again, the mere existence of touchscreens shouldn't be detrimental to the UX of those who use keyboard and mouse.
You're talking about cross-cutting UI concerns (themes, widgets, window system), which I agree are largely mature, while I'm talking about vertical combinations of specific UIs and subsystems, which aren't mature by a long shot.
Example: "delete file" on Windows. Windows has relatively aggressive file locking, but if you try to delete a file that's open, it just errors out, it doesn't tell you what's using the file and give you the option to (force) quit it.
See also: networking, disk management, permissions, sound, preferences, ipc, etc. There are a hundred of these "just needs a bit of work" UI verticals, but designers keep trying to solve these problems with themes and functionality subsets, which are doomed to fail because the underlying issue is a lack of expressiveness in the existing UI, not an excess of it. Meanwhile, systems people live with "just use CLI / sysinternals / wireshark / nmap" like it isn't an issue that bog-standard tasks still require arcane tools in 2020 (arcane by the standards of typical users).
Example: "delete file" on Windows. Windows has relatively aggressive file locking, but if you try to delete a file that's open, it just errors out, it doesn't tell you what's using the file and give you the option to (force) quit it.
See also: networking, disk management, permissions, sound, preferences, ipc, etc. There are a hundred of these "just needs a bit of work" UI verticals, but designers keep trying to solve these problems with themes and functionality subsets, which are doomed to fail because the underlying issue is a lack of expressiveness in the existing UI, not an excess of it. Meanwhile, systems people live with "just use CLI / sysinternals / wireshark / nmap" like it isn't an issue that bog-standard tasks still require arcane tools in 2020 (arcane by the standards of typical users).
Yeah, in my Windows days, I remember having a lot of small utilities that filled the gaps of the OS. There was one for deleting files too, I don't remember the name, probably unlocker something — it showed you all currently open descriptors for a file and allowed you to close them. As opposed to macOS, which straight up tells you "this file is being used by X.app, close it to try again" when you try to delete an open file.
But this is how it works, which is UX. UI is more about how it looks and how it's interacted with.
But this is how it works, which is UX. UI is more about how it looks and how it's interacted with.
They're actually still pretty archaic but no one's cared to do anything about it for decades so we've all been trained to accept the shortcomings. Stuff like background processes grabbing the focus while I'm typing my password, lame modals with an "OK" button, mysterious delays all the time, etc etc etc.
The problem with the old UI was that it wasn’t scalable.
But I think they could have fixed that without messing the whole UI up.
But I think they could have fixed that without messing the whole UI up.
If you mean pixel density, then sure it can be made scalable by using vector graphics or using several different dpi variants of assets. All without changing visual appearance even. Apple managed to do this exact thing in 2012.
Windows 7 was their last true desktop UI. What came after was the mobile tax, driven by their lust for appstore margins. We had to gradually claw it back since the Windows 8 disaster, but I'm confident they will never give up.
I agree, windows 7 was doen well and it was a successful os. Following that is the distaster of Win 8 and the irrevocable disaster windows 10 is. There really is no hope to get a better version every other 2 iterations of windows
I think you've hit the nail on the head.
And there's still a lot of work to be done on the desktop gui. For example, adapting to multimonitor scaling differences.
And the year of the linux desktop will only arrive if we can achieve hw 2d+3d acceleration on an open hardware graphics platform.
And there's still a lot of work to be done on the desktop gui. For example, adapting to multimonitor scaling differences.
And the year of the linux desktop will only arrive if we can achieve hw 2d+3d acceleration on an open hardware graphics platform.
On the contrary. I think desktop UI design needs lots of improvements. To me the peak was around Windows 7 but that's not "perfect" - it needs more improvements in the same direction. Probably KDE is a small improvement over Windows 7, but of course has some drawbacks by being exclusively on Linux. Still, it's my favorite modern desktop UI.
Windows 10 is much better than Win 7. IMO one reason, desktop search that works. Some may consider the reliance on search a UI failure, but I think it has become the dominant organizational principle. The other being pinned apps to the task bar.
> Some may consider the reliance on search a UI failure
No, it's brilliant, in principle. See: spotlight on Mac OS X.
The problem is that Windows Search just doesn't work. I install apps, it can't find them unless they have a start menu enry. I save documents, it can't find them. It does find plenty of irrelevant websites and spurious results from caches, but it misses files sitting directly in my documents folder. Sometimes it returns a result from a partial name hit but when I accidentally type the next character (correctly!) the hit disappears, and it doesn't come back when I remove the offending correct character. It's a mess.
I used to supplement Windows Search with launchy, but then launchy started bugging out. Now I use keypirinha, which intentionally configures bad defaults to encourage you to learn its config file format. Mega cringe. Once you do, though, it does actually work.
No, it's brilliant, in principle. See: spotlight on Mac OS X.
The problem is that Windows Search just doesn't work. I install apps, it can't find them unless they have a start menu enry. I save documents, it can't find them. It does find plenty of irrelevant websites and spurious results from caches, but it misses files sitting directly in my documents folder. Sometimes it returns a result from a partial name hit but when I accidentally type the next character (correctly!) the hit disappears, and it doesn't come back when I remove the offending correct character. It's a mess.
I used to supplement Windows Search with launchy, but then launchy started bugging out. Now I use keypirinha, which intentionally configures bad defaults to encourage you to learn its config file format. Mega cringe. Once you do, though, it does actually work.
Interesting. I’ve never had a problem with desktop search in Win10. It’s all I use and it finds pretty much everything I try. I wonder if indexing issues can end up with vastly different experiences for users.
Windows 10 is better for another reason, maybe an ironic one: you can easily run Linux on it without spinning up a VM!
>desktop search that works
Windows 10 search is the most hilariously broken search engine I think I have ever used!
Windows 10 search is the most hilariously broken search engine I think I have ever used!
> desktop search that works
...interesting... my experience with Win10 search is the complete opposite, it's so broken that I'm really not sure why there is a search feature in Windows10 in the first place. The only way to "fix it" is to install an alternative start menu (like OpenShell) which has a search box which actually works (somewhat, but better than the default search).
...interesting... my experience with Win10 search is the complete opposite, it's so broken that I'm really not sure why there is a search feature in Windows10 in the first place. The only way to "fix it" is to install an alternative start menu (like OpenShell) which has a search box which actually works (somewhat, but better than the default search).
Yes for example the new Snipping Tool. It is so slow when you click the save button. I just expect instant the save dialog, but there is a small time delay.
It just does not feel good. And yes, all Syytem Menus are a mess and what you want is allways somewhere hidden. No wonder you need a good search on your desktop, because without you wouldn't find anything.
The Win10 search randomly throws me into a web browser and giving away my search query to the search engine.
These are features, not "design". I agree that they are nice. On the other hand Win 10 "mobile friendly" design is much worse than Win 7.
Design is features. The problem is that all designers trip over each other to win the high-visibility low-effort turf of top-level theming, when the work that actually needs to be done involves paying more attention to individual features, where there is actual progress to be made.
Yeah, probably should have said that this is not "UI design", but "UX design". In my original comment I was talking about strictly graphical design.
"desktop search that works"
Huh? How does it work for you, and how did you get it that way? To me it has been nothing but useless.
To those who are also looking for a better search solution on Windows: download 'Search everything'. It basically lets you grep on the filenames of all files on your machine, using regexp if you want. It's marvellous.
Huh? How does it work for you, and how did you get it that way? To me it has been nothing but useless.
To those who are also looking for a better search solution on Windows: download 'Search everything'. It basically lets you grep on the filenames of all files on your machine, using regexp if you want. It's marvellous.
the windows 10 search bar is really good for finding local stuff. it's unfortunate that they decided to use it as another vector for pushing bing and edge. if it would allow me to use the search engine and browser of my choice for web results, it could be an extremely powerful feature. it's definitely a value add for me, but it's frustrating to think about how much was left on the table.
For me, the pinacle of the Windows UI was Windows 2000 Professional.
Desktop search is fine and useful for consumers. For someone who uses a machine 8 hours a day, Windows 2000 was great.
Desktop search is fine and useful for consumers. For someone who uses a machine 8 hours a day, Windows 2000 was great.
“desktop search that works”
Problem is that it often doesn’t work. I can type in “calc” and get a list of web links instead of the calculator app. The search box in explorer also sometimes finds things and sometimes doesn’t without any rhyme or reason (at least none that I can figure out).
Problem is that it often doesn’t work. I can type in “calc” and get a list of web links instead of the calculator app. The search box in explorer also sometimes finds things and sometimes doesn’t without any rhyme or reason (at least none that I can figure out).
I agree with search being dominant. My interface to files on windows is 90% through Everything search.
The parent was talking about UI, and he's right, the Win7 Aero and its Start Menu are superior to everything since. They could certainly bring back that UI with better internals, including Search.
However, Search Everything is the absolute best search tool for Windows, regardless of version.
However, Search Everything is the absolute best search tool for Windows, regardless of version.
Maybe we'll finally get one Settings area again so we don't have stuff like: Search 'mouse' > Click 'Mouse settings' > Don't find any option to change pointer speed > Click the tiny 'Additional mouse options' text > Click 'Pointer Options' > Change the mouse pointer speed.
>touchscreens no one uses.
(read: touchscreens I don't use)
Surfaces, touchscreen laptops, and convertibles are all pretty popular.
(read: touchscreens I don't use)
Surfaces, touchscreen laptops, and convertibles are all pretty popular.
I get it, laptops with touchscreens exist, but do people actually use them, or do they buy them because it's hard to find a laptop that doesn't have a touchscreen?
And touchscreen all-in-one desktops. Touchscreen external monitors are not as popular, which is unfortunate since I use them and want higher resolution ones.
Every screen I have is a touch screen. Laptops, all-in-ones, external screens, on Windows and Linux.
Every screen I have is a touch screen. Laptops, all-in-ones, external screens, on Windows and Linux.
Yeah I saw that comment too. We had to search for two weeks to find an affordable non Surface touchscreen because it was my 16 years olds preference for school work.
The touch screen UI experience design isn't well thought out.
I never use tablet mode even though I have a few windows detachable devices.
All they need to fix it is to realize that windows isn't a mobile is. And that windows users keep their important stuff in the desktop.
In tablet mode, desktop is hidden and you'd would have to jump through hoops to access it.
It seems windows cannot distinguish between a touch screen tap and a mouse. Because long pressing on desktop randomly shows a touch optimized context menu or the normal one designed for mouse.
I never use tablet mode even though I have a few windows detachable devices.
All they need to fix it is to realize that windows isn't a mobile is. And that windows users keep their important stuff in the desktop.
In tablet mode, desktop is hidden and you'd would have to jump through hoops to access it.
It seems windows cannot distinguish between a touch screen tap and a mouse. Because long pressing on desktop randomly shows a touch optimized context menu or the normal one designed for mouse.
> UI redesigns of desktop operating systems are usually opposite of exciting these days. ... Here's an opinion: desktop UIs are mature. They serve their purpose outstandingly well.
I couldn't agree more. Your points are exactly why I've remained a happy Linux Mint user for nearly a decade. I don't dread OS or desktop environment updates, precisely because I know my chosen desktop environment will mostly remain the same (if not exactly the same).
I couldn't agree more. Your points are exactly why I've remained a happy Linux Mint user for nearly a decade. I don't dread OS or desktop environment updates, precisely because I know my chosen desktop environment will mostly remain the same (if not exactly the same).
The Desktop UI paradigm has definitely matured, and requires only some fine tuning here and there. Mostly with graphics and not design.
What Microsoft really need is a Window strategy. Where is it heading. Its source of revenue in the future. Its longtime programming framework, library, API Strategy etc....
I believe they have WinUI 3.0 now? What happened to WPF, UWP and WinForms? And they are moving all of the Outlook Apps to Electron for cross platform development. [1] And just look at .Net. Have they finally settled on .Net Core now?
May be because I am on Mac so I am confused. It is not Apple are perfect, but looking from the outside either Microsoft doesn't have a clue or they just dont care.
[1] https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-to-replace-its-many-...
What Microsoft really need is a Window strategy. Where is it heading. Its source of revenue in the future. Its longtime programming framework, library, API Strategy etc....
I believe they have WinUI 3.0 now? What happened to WPF, UWP and WinForms? And they are moving all of the Outlook Apps to Electron for cross platform development. [1] And just look at .Net. Have they finally settled on .Net Core now?
May be because I am on Mac so I am confused. It is not Apple are perfect, but looking from the outside either Microsoft doesn't have a clue or they just dont care.
[1] https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-to-replace-its-many-...
I'm not sure the version where Excel went from desktop app to rendered monster, but if we could roll that back I'd be most grateful. The number of UX issues that generated surely was predictable.
I don’t think Microsoft will make the same mistake again by pursuing a touch UI on the desktop. Windows 8 and the Metro UI was a huge waste of time and effort that really harmed Microsoft.
What I think they are pursuing is how to monetize Windows. They tried it in Windows 10 with some start menu shenanigans, but people hated it and you can find tons of articles about how to hack Windows to get rid of that shit. So this role’s job will be to find a design that supports monetization without pissing off users.
What I think they are pursuing is how to monetize Windows. They tried it in Windows 10 with some start menu shenanigans, but people hated it and you can find tons of articles about how to hack Windows to get rid of that shit. So this role’s job will be to find a design that supports monetization without pissing off users.
have they considered, you know, charging money for the OS? I would be happy to pay a reasonable yearly subscription fee for a telemetry-free windows install.
I dread the day they change Windows Explorer for the one with a new "modern" UI
I have often wondered when a UI will be 'settled' and won't need to be updated anymore. But then what will the UI designers do? Idle fingers make new designs?
Never, because if you change the insides no one notices: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20040525-00/?p=39...
IBM CUA 87/92 is at least 90% done if not more.
Hope they aim for consistency in the refresh. I don't mind constant refreshes or redesigns. I don't care that I'm slightly less efficient in the modern settings pages than in the old control panel. I'm happy to lose a bit of efficiency to have a nice design. Just like I want web pages to have a nice design even at a (reasonable) cost of readability or usability.
But what does bug me is when the refreshes are half baked. Either refresh everything visible and hide the old one entirely behind some obscure command if it must remain, or don't refresh at all.
But what does bug me is when the refreshes are half baked. Either refresh everything visible and hide the old one entirely behind some obscure command if it must remain, or don't refresh at all.
Complete agreement. It's like having two sons named Daniel. One's handsome and useless, one's smart and useful. Whenever you call for Daniel, the handsome one pushes the smart one down the stairs and gets to you first, when all you needed was the smart one to come here and figure out how to connect your microphone for you.
I hate it so much when I want to do some obscure thing on Windows, but when I go to the place you used to be able to do it, it's gone! Replaced with a "modern" control panel which doesn't support that obscure thing. Instead, I have to find my way to the old window via a different route. Eventually the original control panel pops up and I can change that setting.
I don't have a problem with changing things if it replaces all the functionality.
I don't have a problem with changing things if it replaces all the functionality.
Modern Settings is TERRIBLE and missing a crap ton of options that were better in Control Panel...
It is trying to do to must "automatically" for you instead of just letting you control the system.
It is trying to do to must "automatically" for you instead of just letting you control the system.
Yep. So it's really not finished. In order to be finished, it obviously has to do everything. Since the old UX must exist forever for compat, I could accept some part of the most extreme settings to be hidden there (After all - in the end we are still resorting to registry edits for anything that isn't in the control panel!) - but the network card settings, audio device settings that are used by almost every user, is still in the old world.
It works, but navigation is confusing, the experience switching between different paradigms is jarring, you can't search for things from the top level and find it in the control panel and so on. They have eft it at 60% finished instead of the 95% or 99% that would make it actually usable.
It works, but navigation is confusing, the experience switching between different paradigms is jarring, you can't search for things from the top level and find it in the control panel and so on. They have eft it at 60% finished instead of the 95% or 99% that would make it actually usable.
Talk about making a news story out of nothing! Here's the job ad directly from Microsoft (https://careers.microsoft.com/us/en/job/922184/Senior-Softwa...):
> The Windows Core User Experiences team builds interfaces for Windows and Surface Hub customers around the world, and we’re looking for a collaborative, inclusive and customer obsessed engineer to help us build the future of Windows Experiences!
> On this team, you’ll orchestrate and deliver experiences that ensure Windows is a great user experience for our customers.
> You will have the opportunity to build delightful, polished, experiences for Windows as well as for our Surface Hub product line. You will play a key role in open-ended explorations, prototyping and identifying business opportunities for Windows experiences. We're looking for collaborative engineers to bring their passion, drive and technical acumen to help us accomplish these goals.
> We have a wide spectrum of fantastic opportunities to further advance your career and expand your skillset – from building UI using the latest cutting-edge XAML technologies, designing new APIs in conjunction with the our platform team partners, to interfacing with hardware teams to build the essential platform and infrastructure in our OS - as well as working directly with our customers to understand their needs and deliver magical software that exceeds their expectations!
How do they get from that to "This UI refresh will reportedly include an overhaul to the Start Menu, Action Center and some in-box/bundled Microsoft apps" is my question?
Sounds like a normal job ad for any UI or design related engineer.
> The Windows Core User Experiences team builds interfaces for Windows and Surface Hub customers around the world, and we’re looking for a collaborative, inclusive and customer obsessed engineer to help us build the future of Windows Experiences!
> On this team, you’ll orchestrate and deliver experiences that ensure Windows is a great user experience for our customers.
> You will have the opportunity to build delightful, polished, experiences for Windows as well as for our Surface Hub product line. You will play a key role in open-ended explorations, prototyping and identifying business opportunities for Windows experiences. We're looking for collaborative engineers to bring their passion, drive and technical acumen to help us accomplish these goals.
> We have a wide spectrum of fantastic opportunities to further advance your career and expand your skillset – from building UI using the latest cutting-edge XAML technologies, designing new APIs in conjunction with the our platform team partners, to interfacing with hardware teams to build the essential platform and infrastructure in our OS - as well as working directly with our customers to understand their needs and deliver magical software that exceeds their expectations!
How do they get from that to "This UI refresh will reportedly include an overhaul to the Start Menu, Action Center and some in-box/bundled Microsoft apps" is my question?
Sounds like a normal job ad for any UI or design related engineer.
Thanks for some sanity. This looks like a standard job form. I worked on the Windows Core UX team for a very long time (technically, it was renamed from Core UX to Core Experiences Evolved to Desktop Experience to..... I might have forgotten one, but it was renamed to Core UX shortly before I left), and this could have been the job posting for my team at any point.
> reportedly
They reported it. It's now reportedly. And all other sites can also mention "reportedly" as well now too.
They reported it. It's now reportedly. And all other sites can also mention "reportedly" as well now too.
> Talk about making a news story out of nothing! ....
The article states your post is the job posting after it was edited. The original had the text:
"On this team, you'll work with our key platform, Surface, and OEM partners to orchestrate and deliver a sweeping visual rejuvenation of Windows experiences to signal to our customers that Windows is BACK and ensure that Windows is considered the best user OS experience for customers"
The article states your post is the job posting after it was edited. The original had the text:
"On this team, you'll work with our key platform, Surface, and OEM partners to orchestrate and deliver a sweeping visual rejuvenation of Windows experiences to signal to our customers that Windows is BACK and ensure that Windows is considered the best user OS experience for customers"
Still, with that (reportedly) missing paragraph, it's still a large jump from vague "sweeping visual rejuvenation of Windows experiences" to conclusive "overhaul to the Start Menu, Action Center and some in-box/bundled Microsoft apps". But hardly the first times news organizations add their own flair to stuff.
What times in the past did Microsoft make a "sweeping visual rejuvenation of Windows experiences" that didn't include an "overhaul of the Start Menu, Action center, and some in-box/bundled Microsoft apps"?
Keyword here is visual. Every one I just looked at revamped all the things you claim is a large jump. Given that every previous one seemed to make those changes, I think a large jump would be to conclude this one will not.
Keyword here is visual. Every one I just looked at revamped all the things you claim is a large jump. Given that every previous one seemed to make those changes, I think a large jump would be to conclude this one will not.
Yeah, that could mean roughly anything at all.
Rejuvenation: The process of rendering young again.
Windows 3.11 is due for a fashionable return!
Windows 3.11 is due for a fashionable return!
> Windows Latest spotted the job posting this week, which was posted by Microsoft in October,
The link says it was posted on Jan 4
The link says it was posted on Jan 4
While there are things to improve—better UI scaling, type rendering, dark mode, touch compatibility—I personally would like to see a return to simplicity.
The Windows UI has been inconsistent and weird since Windows 2000 (or XP if you turned off the Sesame Street theme).
The Windows UI has been inconsistent and weird since Windows 2000 (or XP if you turned off the Sesame Street theme).
“The Windows UI has been inconsistent and weird since Windows 2000”
Very true. Windows 95 and then 2000 showed some real efforts to get good and consistent usability. They threw that all away with Windows 8 and Metro.
Very true. Windows 95 and then 2000 showed some real efforts to get good and consistent usability. They threw that all away with Windows 8 and Metro.
Maybe I’m just coming from a place of ignorance (I haven’t used Windows for years), but why? The Win10 UI looks to me probably the most attractive and usable it’s ever been. Enough so that I’d probably feel comfortable switching to it if I decided the Mac isn’t for me anymore.
Not that I don’t trust MS’s recent design direction, but I have to wonder if such a major overhaul is warranted.
Not that I don’t trust MS’s recent design direction, but I have to wonder if such a major overhaul is warranted.
Windows 10 has a lot of problems. There are two different control panels!
Don't bring that up, they may get rid of the older, more usable one!
Nah, they'll just add a third option.
Thanks for making me laugh.
This is by far the most Microsoft comment ever.
This is by far the most Microsoft comment ever.
And whatever they miss in the third option they’ll shove it in a fourth one then a subsequent version they’ll do some infuriatinng consolidation between the two that will drive users mad even more, the tutorials will be pointing users to all sort of methods that no longer work. That’s the way Windows’s been. Every other 2 iterations they eventually got it working but the disaster inbetween was the most frustrating experience. No wonder people held onto older version of windows until they no were no longer supported. Upgrading wasn’t worth the wased time most of the time
This is the problem they need to fix. Two different looks, with the modern look removing needed functionality, sacrificing functionality for UI goodness.
This is the real problem. I don't mind the UI changing but it's no use if they remove important functionality.
Sure, but that just requires them to finish migrating the UI; it does not require yet another UI overhaul.
(And in fact, the latter is probably worse for completing the migration!)
(And in fact, the latter is probably worse for completing the migration!)
“finish migrating the UI; it does not require yet another UI overhaul.”
They have been working on this now for 8 years without much progress. For any serious work you still to know if the setting is in the old control panel or the new. I don’t think they are even trying to clean up.
They have been working on this now for 8 years without much progress. For any serious work you still to know if the setting is in the old control panel or the new. I don’t think they are even trying to clean up.
As of the current release, the only things left in the old Control Panel are things that seem to be adjusted by external programs. For example, the touchpad driver for my laptop exposes itself through a tab on the old Mouse control panel.
Pretty much everything is in the Settings app now, though it was missing a whole lot of stuff back at launch years ago. Every single setting is searchable, which I find to be a vast, vast improvement.
Pretty much everything is in the Settings app now, though it was missing a whole lot of stuff back at launch years ago. Every single setting is searchable, which I find to be a vast, vast improvement.
They are moving the functionality to new experience piece by piece.
I wonder if anybody back in the Windows 8 days was even able to estimate how much work all this means. Many of the control panel applets have been there for ages so they must have lot of legacy stuff inside them. Also the modern UI is totally different experience, so they likely ended up rewriting a big part of code.
I wonder if anybody back in the Windows 8 days was even able to estimate how much work all this means. Many of the control panel applets have been there for ages so they must have lot of legacy stuff inside them. Also the modern UI is totally different experience, so they likely ended up rewriting a big part of code.
Caution: Windows 10 is beautiful in static Hi-DPI screenshots, but actually using it may present a different usability opinion.
While I find Windows 10 usable and attractive, I find it still has a lot of clunkiness that needs work.
While I find Windows 10 usable and attractive, I find it still has a lot of clunkiness that needs work.
You are not using it, I am not using it, lots of people never use it.
For this reason they need to change it. So we have a reason to use it.
Way back in the Windows 3.11 days and also in the Win 95 days and to some extent the Windows XP days they gave people a good reason to use it. With 3.11 it was more to do with the apps that came along for the ride, with 95 it was neat touches like the context menu and DirectX, with XP it was because it wasn't a DOS system in disguise any more.
In the next iteration they have plenty of opportunities to get it right. Lots of historical design decisions were taken because of reasons that no longer matter. They can just do it right rather than due to a half baked whim.
An overhaul is warranted, to bring people back to using it.
For this reason they need to change it. So we have a reason to use it.
Way back in the Windows 3.11 days and also in the Win 95 days and to some extent the Windows XP days they gave people a good reason to use it. With 3.11 it was more to do with the apps that came along for the ride, with 95 it was neat touches like the context menu and DirectX, with XP it was because it wasn't a DOS system in disguise any more.
In the next iteration they have plenty of opportunities to get it right. Lots of historical design decisions were taken because of reasons that no longer matter. They can just do it right rather than due to a half baked whim.
An overhaul is warranted, to bring people back to using it.
If you only seen curated screenshots then prepare for disappointment. It is a random hodgepodge of UI/UX design patterns and toolkits. Theres few sane global design default so basically every app is just archane memorization as opposed to just groking the OS/Desktop design principles.
I've used Linux distros my whole life but I feel confident saying Linux desktop has surpassed Windows in usability.
I occasionally interact with Windows for family members and it always amazes me how wrong things are.
I've used Linux distros my whole life but I feel confident saying Linux desktop has surpassed Windows in usability.
I occasionally interact with Windows for family members and it always amazes me how wrong things are.
Well, if you're a corporation with dozens/hundreds of designers, who did a great job of building an extensible design system, and now any engineer can just take that design system and roll with it, what are you going to do? Fire all those designers?
Of course not. You simply re-design every few years.
The re-design will be supported by evidence like "its cleaner" and "it increases visual clarity" or "it unifies our brand", because phrases like that mean nothing but who would ever vote against cleaning something up?
Of course not. You simply re-design every few years.
The re-design will be supported by evidence like "its cleaner" and "it increases visual clarity" or "it unifies our brand", because phrases like that mean nothing but who would ever vote against cleaning something up?
I wonder how much more they will prod me to move all my files to their servers/cloud. And then how many more times per week they will force me to shut down my computer and update it. Its almost like they are moving to PC as a service. I anticipate ill be moving to Linux pretty soon.
I've gotten to the point where whenever I setup a Windows machine, I tell it I have no internet connection, because that seems to be the only way to get it shut up about using a Microsoft Account to log in, configuring OneDrive, etc. Then once everything is setup I'll connect it to my home network. I recall years ago when I did my Windows 10 box they didn't push the Microsoft Account on you so hard during setup, but when doing newer laptops for family members that's clearly changed.
I've basically demoted my Windows 10 box to headless status. If I want to do anything I either use Remote Desktop or Steam Streaming to access it.
Interestingly OS X also has plenty of Cloud services, but Apple seems to have at least figured out how to sell them in a less intrusive manner while letting you feel like you're still in control of the machine. Just little things like you setup a local account and then Apple sells you on "Hey want to link your iCloud so you can remote wipe this machine if it is stolen?" vs forcing you to lie about internet connectivity so Windows 10 gives you the local account option.
I've basically demoted my Windows 10 box to headless status. If I want to do anything I either use Remote Desktop or Steam Streaming to access it.
Interestingly OS X also has plenty of Cloud services, but Apple seems to have at least figured out how to sell them in a less intrusive manner while letting you feel like you're still in control of the machine. Just little things like you setup a local account and then Apple sells you on "Hey want to link your iCloud so you can remote wipe this machine if it is stolen?" vs forcing you to lie about internet connectivity so Windows 10 gives you the local account option.
That's clever. Now a Microsoft employee will read this and fix that little inconvenient bug ;)
Agree with Apple except that we learned it constantly streams your activity to their servers now (things like when you open an app).
Back to Microsoft - the smack in the face for me is that OneDrive/their servers is listed as the top choice when saving files in Office. You cannot remove it/demote it in any way even when disabling OneDrive as a connected service. Its more obnoxious/a direction I dont like that they are headed towards than a crippling thing I cant work around.
Agree with Apple except that we learned it constantly streams your activity to their servers now (things like when you open an app).
Back to Microsoft - the smack in the face for me is that OneDrive/their servers is listed as the top choice when saving files in Office. You cannot remove it/demote it in any way even when disabling OneDrive as a connected service. Its more obnoxious/a direction I dont like that they are headed towards than a crippling thing I cant work around.
> Now a Microsoft employee will read this and fix that little inconvenient bug ;)
I like to think that Microsoft employees mostly realize how stupid stuff like this is, and intentionally leave loopholes like that until forced to "fix" it.
I like to think that Microsoft employees mostly realize how stupid stuff like this is, and intentionally leave loopholes like that until forced to "fix" it.
This is clearly a designed path.
Another workaround for this if you forget and accidentally connect to the internet during setup is to write incorrect login credentials at the MS account login step. If you do it a few (less than 3?) times the option comes up to make a local account instead.
OS X doesn't have to sell it hard because they already did, and succeed, when they onboarded you on IOS.
> Its almost like they are moving to PC as a service.
One of the first things you see is "Windows 10 is a service" when you install it. That's always been it's premise since it was released. They aren't hiding that detail.
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/deployment/update/w...
One of the first things you see is "Windows 10 is a service" when you install it. That's always been it's premise since it was released. They aren't hiding that detail.
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/deployment/update/w...
I thought I'd get away with a common sense interpretation of what I'm getting at, but I should have known better.
I'm with the GP—I'm having trouble thinking of an alternative "common sense interpretation" other than e.g. "Windows as a service." Could you expand on what exactly you mean?
I'll take the very non-HN stance here and say I really appreciate some of Microsoft's cloud integrations. Onedrive has occasional issues, but being able to save my documents, pictures, etc. to Onedrive instead of a local drive is constantly useful to me. Even more so for the non-technical members of my family. Using a Microsoft login instead of a local login has also been useful, especially at times when I've been running multiple computers (laptop, desktop, Media PC, etc.).
I have no issue with it as an option. I have an issue with Microsoft prodding me to make it my default. OneDrive is permanently listed ahead of my local files in Office for instance and you need to really put effort into disabling it from linking to your PC when you first set it up. Many non tech oriented people probably cant even figure out how to do that. Further, its really the direction that's concerning. Where will we be in the next 3 major releases.
That's a valid criticism I hadn't considered. My work PC, for instance, is barred from using Onedrive for security reasons, but it still has icon. Same with the Windows Store app. Agreed that they could/should make it easier to remove/hide.
You can uninstall OneDrive (it's not a Windows component, it's in Add/Remove Programs) and it'll go away from File Explorer.
How is it useful with multiple computers?
One account so password changes are synced, things like network profiles/wifi passwords or certain Windows settings sync, clipboard can sync, Microsoft apps inherit the system login. Probably some other stuff I haven't noticed since I last looked at it.
I use local myself but I think its decently useful stuff to most people.
I use local myself but I think its decently useful stuff to most people.
I moved a few years ago. I toyed around with Linux before, but what pushed me over the edge is losing a bunch of work one day after Windows decided to reboot behind my back, when I locked the PC and walked away. I was like, "Lol, I don't control this computer, huh?"
To my surprise (still), I've lived in Linux comfortably for years now. It's, hands down, a superior OS for programming (unless you're married to Visual Studio [the IDE, not Code]), but being able to live in it otherwise so well is still surprising, from gaming to interpolation on videos with mpv + SVP (which, pretty strangely, is free for Linux but costed me a subscription on Windows! https://www.svp-team.com/get/). FreeOffice (https://www.freeoffice.com/en/) has a clone suite of Microsoft Office that works with all the formats (plus, Microsoft Office is on the web now, anyway, right?), and preferring roguelike and indie games (which are reliably native) over AAA games enough to make do with running the odd AAA on Proton when available has been key for me. If I was really into AAA games or doing audio editing or something, I'd probably've gone back and made do with WSL2.
To save you time if you try switching, the best distro for a Windows refugee (or non-server, end user generally, in my strong opinion) is Manjaro with KDE. KDE's the most featureful, powerful, and Windows-like DE, and Manjaro's most Windows 10-like in that you're getting new updates all the time, indefinitely, which are pretty close to bleeding edge but held back for a margin of safety (as opposed to Ubuntu, where you're stuck with old stuff unless you mess with PPAs or install the new version of the OS every few years -- however, in edge cases like CUDA development, you might want to have older packages, since Ubuntu kind of dictates the pacing of outside development given its marketshare). It also benefits from the insanely-detailed Arch Wiki (since it's Arch-based) and has the AUR, which has every package ever, and it has GUI tools for kernel rollbacks and driver stuff, AND the Manjaro forums are amazingly helpful.
To my surprise (still), I've lived in Linux comfortably for years now. It's, hands down, a superior OS for programming (unless you're married to Visual Studio [the IDE, not Code]), but being able to live in it otherwise so well is still surprising, from gaming to interpolation on videos with mpv + SVP (which, pretty strangely, is free for Linux but costed me a subscription on Windows! https://www.svp-team.com/get/). FreeOffice (https://www.freeoffice.com/en/) has a clone suite of Microsoft Office that works with all the formats (plus, Microsoft Office is on the web now, anyway, right?), and preferring roguelike and indie games (which are reliably native) over AAA games enough to make do with running the odd AAA on Proton when available has been key for me. If I was really into AAA games or doing audio editing or something, I'd probably've gone back and made do with WSL2.
To save you time if you try switching, the best distro for a Windows refugee (or non-server, end user generally, in my strong opinion) is Manjaro with KDE. KDE's the most featureful, powerful, and Windows-like DE, and Manjaro's most Windows 10-like in that you're getting new updates all the time, indefinitely, which are pretty close to bleeding edge but held back for a margin of safety (as opposed to Ubuntu, where you're stuck with old stuff unless you mess with PPAs or install the new version of the OS every few years -- however, in edge cases like CUDA development, you might want to have older packages, since Ubuntu kind of dictates the pacing of outside development given its marketshare). It also benefits from the insanely-detailed Arch Wiki (since it's Arch-based) and has the AUR, which has every package ever, and it has GUI tools for kernel rollbacks and driver stuff, AND the Manjaro forums are amazingly helpful.
I replaced my 2013 MBP with a System76 laptop in late 2019. No regrets whatsoever. I can boot the new machine into Windows if I really want to. It's been months since I left it at installed.
I'm in the Windows 10 beta program. I don't even think much about the 2 times a month I'm asked to restart my machine.
I run programs that cannot afford for windows to tell me I need to shut my computer down especially within certain hours of the day. I'm usually ok but they should set the automatic updates to default but give users some sort of option.
AaronFriel you can only pause for a few weeks and you need to keep doing that in perpetuity. That said, its not so much impossible to work around, its just annoying and feels like an encroachment. If I want to run my PC as a server with near 100% uptime then just let me do it.
moksly, an enterprise license is for 500+ employees and will have a cost to match that.
AaronFriel you can only pause for a few weeks and you need to keep doing that in perpetuity. That said, its not so much impossible to work around, its just annoying and feels like an encroachment. If I want to run my PC as a server with near 100% uptime then just let me do it.
moksly, an enterprise license is for 500+ employees and will have a cost to match that.
Then you are using the wrong windows version. If you need complete control over updates for a machine that runs 24/7 you need the windows server edition.
This is why I'm saying I'm close to just switching to Linux, which would be my next move. Not going to reward Microsoft with a new version purchase for making their OS a pain in the ass. Nowhere in the purchase documentation/advertising does it mention this differentiation unless its buried somewhere so I was unaware and I already made my purchase.
Everyone has their priorities. In Linux you will have updates breaking dependencies, endless hours in configuration, lackluster hardware support and broken display scaling. I love Linux for a server box that I rarely touch but I would never use it for my day to day needs.
Good to know. Id experiment before a full shift.
You can pause updates.
That's not enough. I had a client have a commercial CNC project screwed up because Windows decided it was done pausing, or didn't give them the obvious option.
I wasn't onsite to pause it myself.
I wasn't onsite to pause it myself.
Microsoft would argue that your CNC controller should be running Windows 10 LTSC or IoT. I have a Customer who conducts multi-day experiments sampling data from lab instruments connected to Windows 10-based PCs. Losing the results of an experiment wasn't acceptable, so they ponied-up for the more costly LTSC (at the time LTSB) version. Automatic reboots have been a non-issue.
That one has to do this is galling. The availability of a product SKU to work around the "evergreen" nature of Windows 10 doesn't eliminate my distaste for it.
That one has to do this is galling. The availability of a product SKU to work around the "evergreen" nature of Windows 10 doesn't eliminate my distaste for it.
Every time I hear about Windows 10 LTSC I look for a place to buy a key or download the ISO from Microsoft and I can’t find it. It seems like they don’t want to sell it.
It's only available through their volume license scheme. And therefore people will continue to use regular versions and suffer from these issues. Microsoft seems to have forgotten that small businesses (who don't want to deal with volume licenses) run Windows... They get Windows when they buy new computers.
I have small business customers w/ < 10 PCs who use Microsoft volume licensing. I almost always recommend Customers purchase volume license Windows Server to allow the software to be re-assigned to new hardware-- particularly when virtualization is in play.
It's not burdensome or expensive to deal with. (I'm not a reseller, so it affords no advantage for me-- kickbacks, etc. I just like knowing that expensive server software licenses can be moved to new hosts, etc.)
It's not burdensome or expensive to deal with. (I'm not a reseller, so it affords no advantage for me-- kickbacks, etc. I just like knowing that expensive server software licenses can be moved to new hosts, etc.)
That’s because it’s a product that’s designed for developers to sell alongside the product it empowers. You shouldn’t need to buy a volume license unless you’re building, say, CNC machines. That a product developer sold you a product that needs to be automatically rebooted isn’t really Microsoft’s fault.
Indeed, although there's a huge amount of the economy built upon small businesses building things and selling them to other small businesses, neither of which wants to deal with a subscription-based volume license deal.
The factory I know using CNC machines bought them many moons ago, for a fixed payment (the old fashioned way), from a small business. They don't have any kind of subscription, they are fully offline, and they won't go anywhere near any kind of network. I don't really see recent Microsoft product lines delivering what's required in these scenarios.
Arguably this is more of a use-case for Windows Embedded, but that has its own licensing challenges. Ultimately the small system integrators will end up shipping with Ubuntu if Microsoft makes it too hard to build products around the Windows ecosystem, as it will save them time, money, effort and support costs.
The factory I know using CNC machines bought them many moons ago, for a fixed payment (the old fashioned way), from a small business. They don't have any kind of subscription, they are fully offline, and they won't go anywhere near any kind of network. I don't really see recent Microsoft product lines delivering what's required in these scenarios.
Arguably this is more of a use-case for Windows Embedded, but that has its own licensing challenges. Ultimately the small system integrators will end up shipping with Ubuntu if Microsoft makes it too hard to build products around the Windows ecosystem, as it will save them time, money, effort and support costs.
You'll have to work with a reseller. It's a bit of a pain, but it's not too bad. I've used Dell and CDW in the past.
The minimum volume license buy is 5 licenses. Any good reseller will sell you 1 copy of LTSC and 4 of the cheapest SKU in the catalog (usually $5-10 / ea) to get your volume license contract started. After that you can purchase piecemeal for 2 years before you need to fulfill the minimum purchase again. The licenses themselves are perpetual.
I don't like it, but it's not too hard to do either. The trick is finding a reseller who will leave you alone after the purchase (no sales calls, etc).
The minimum volume license buy is 5 licenses. Any good reseller will sell you 1 copy of LTSC and 4 of the cheapest SKU in the catalog (usually $5-10 / ea) to get your volume license contract started. After that you can purchase piecemeal for 2 years before you need to fulfill the minimum purchase again. The licenses themselves are perpetual.
I don't like it, but it's not too hard to do either. The trick is finding a reseller who will leave you alone after the purchase (no sales calls, etc).
We were similarly almost bit in the @ass a few times during the lockdowns when no one was around to stop the Windows boxes from doing what they wanted, or were centrally commanded, to do.
I don't recall if we found a workaround, or were able to get someone in the office to do the reboots.
I don't recall if we found a workaround, or were able to get someone in the office to do the reboots.
Before I was a software engineer, I did freelance consulting and a lot of Windows system administration.
Your statement about getting bit by Windows policies only spurs more questions on. What on earth is going on that you need someone physically present "to do the reboots", and why don't you have any remote administration tooling, and why are you using Windows client OS boxes, and...
Should I send you my card, or use my (still active, I think) partner status to sell you some server or LTSC licenses? Put you in touch with a managed service provider?
It seems to me no different than writing that you installed say, Ubuntu Desktop or MacOS in the office, set up your company's webapp or some critical software to start after user login, neglected to set up any remote administration software, and then when it reboots to install security updates it's the software's fault? There were a lot of ways things went wrong before the reboot.
Your statement about getting bit by Windows policies only spurs more questions on. What on earth is going on that you need someone physically present "to do the reboots", and why don't you have any remote administration tooling, and why are you using Windows client OS boxes, and...
Should I send you my card, or use my (still active, I think) partner status to sell you some server or LTSC licenses? Put you in touch with a managed service provider?
It seems to me no different than writing that you installed say, Ubuntu Desktop or MacOS in the office, set up your company's webapp or some critical software to start after user login, neglected to set up any remote administration software, and then when it reboots to install security updates it's the software's fault? There were a lot of ways things went wrong before the reboot.
How many hundreds of thousands of dollars did the commercial CNC cost, and it used a desktop, user-focused rolling update OS instead of a server OS?
Dunno. We're just the repair shop that wound up installing win7 instead, because the CNC only supported windows.
Can I sell you some LTSC licenses?
Windows 7 is no longer supported and you now have devices not receiving security updates that are (if they're getting updates) connected to the internet.
Windows 7 is no longer supported and you now have devices not receiving security updates that are (if they're getting updates) connected to the internet.
How much are they?
We don't have any sort of contractual set-up with the company using the CNC machine, they just brought it to us and said "fix".
According to that company though, the machine is disconnected most of the time, only being connected occasionally to update the CNC software.
Edit: And yes, I'm well aware Win7 isn't supported. However, as it is almost always offline, working is better than not working.
All of that being said, I may be interested in getting a few if you can sell not in bulk.
We don't have any sort of contractual set-up with the company using the CNC machine, they just brought it to us and said "fix".
According to that company though, the machine is disconnected most of the time, only being connected occasionally to update the CNC software.
Edit: And yes, I'm well aware Win7 isn't supported. However, as it is almost always offline, working is better than not working.
All of that being said, I may be interested in getting a few if you can sell not in bulk.
Ah, dang, I don't have access to that portal anymore. Looks like the price is between $200 and $250 for a perpetual license.
Just call CDW or one of the major manufacturers - Dell, HP Enterprise, etc. They can all sell you windows 10 LTSC volume licenses.
Just call CDW or one of the major manufacturers - Dell, HP Enterprise, etc. They can all sell you windows 10 LTSC volume licenses.
Ah well, thanks for checking.
I think 200$ a license is a bit out of range for me anyways.
I think 200$ a license is a bit out of range for me anyways.
You could always get an enterprise license and have complete control.
The whole push in the industry is to move everything to cloud, because that delivers better lock-in. The cloud is un-defeatable DRM (as the software is not even local) plus control of your data.
Infuriating on so many levels: 1) creating the largest honeypot imaginable/single point of attack. 2) Potential trust issues as companies put proprietary data on servers that are not theirs 3) People storing deeply personal and sensitive data like photos on servers that are not theirs. 4) Forcing others data and work to be used for monetization without compensation. 5) Ultimately restricting innovation as people have less ability to build locally if they really take this direction to the max.
Yet you’re here on a social network where nothing you write is hosted or owned by you?
Do you actually believe deep down inside that this is a parallel comparison.
If this is a social network then I'm a militia!
Lock-in is not the only reason: on-prem/on-pc deployments are more expensive as they have to consider more scenarios. How you install it, what other software is running, what software you want to combine it with (e.g., what database you want to run).
On-prem/on-pc is also harder to debug and support, and harder to keep customers on the latest release, so you have to maintain more releases.
Overall cloud makes sense from a business perspective because it's cheaper and takes less effort, so you can dedicate your developers to add valueable features to your software instead of dealing with customer specific situations.
On-prem/on-pc is also harder to debug and support, and harder to keep customers on the latest release, so you have to maintain more releases.
Overall cloud makes sense from a business perspective because it's cheaper and takes less effort, so you can dedicate your developers to add valueable features to your software instead of dealing with customer specific situations.
All the problems you describe could be solved if the incentives pointed toward solving them, but they don't.
I'm currious, what incentives would solve them in what way?
If there were a solid business around recurring revenue for applications hosted locally, there would be more motivation for improving local operating systems. As it stands there's not much motivation to improve the local OS experience because there isn't demand either from the dev side or the user side.
Well, if there is no demand from the user side, then apparently it's not very important.
For a vendor, creating, maintaining and supporting on-prem software is more expensive than cloud software, which means it will have a higher price. Don't see users willing to pay a higher price, if it's not considered important.
For a vendor, creating, maintaining and supporting on-prem software is more expensive than cloud software, which means it will have a higher price. Don't see users willing to pay a higher price, if it's not considered important.
> Its almost like they are moving to PC as a service.
I'd love that offering in a slightly different sense.
I do most of my personal compute intensive work on AWS these days. If I am processing a bunch of old files into a different format, or archiving old photos, I might spin up a many cored instance and parallalize it to turn a day's processing into an hour (mostly the code, and a few minutes of compute). And I store old junk in AWS for at least an order of magnitude less than dropbox or google drive can get me. I had a personal project where the naive thing to do involved a massive matrix multiply, so I saved myself a ton of time by spinning up a machine with half a terabyte of RAM and did it naively, saving myself an enormous amount of time trying to do something clever.
At this point, for my own machine, I'd love something that amounts to a big battery with a wifi connection (and maybe a teeny tiny cpu somewhere in it). For workloads that can be done over SSH, it's all I need. If the rest of my needs could be met that way, I'd love it. It would be great to just have a remote desktop I can spin up in AWS, changing the size and specs as I want. Basically stadio/geforce now for everything.
I expect as internet becomes more reliable, this will be a thing. Sadly, instead of being able to install windows or OS X on an EC2 instance with an image that I can pass around wherever, moving to GCP or nvidia whenever I decide to, it'll probably be a locked down offering like some services we are starting to see today :(
I'd love that offering in a slightly different sense.
I do most of my personal compute intensive work on AWS these days. If I am processing a bunch of old files into a different format, or archiving old photos, I might spin up a many cored instance and parallalize it to turn a day's processing into an hour (mostly the code, and a few minutes of compute). And I store old junk in AWS for at least an order of magnitude less than dropbox or google drive can get me. I had a personal project where the naive thing to do involved a massive matrix multiply, so I saved myself a ton of time by spinning up a machine with half a terabyte of RAM and did it naively, saving myself an enormous amount of time trying to do something clever.
At this point, for my own machine, I'd love something that amounts to a big battery with a wifi connection (and maybe a teeny tiny cpu somewhere in it). For workloads that can be done over SSH, it's all I need. If the rest of my needs could be met that way, I'd love it. It would be great to just have a remote desktop I can spin up in AWS, changing the size and specs as I want. Basically stadio/geforce now for everything.
I expect as internet becomes more reliable, this will be a thing. Sadly, instead of being able to install windows or OS X on an EC2 instance with an image that I can pass around wherever, moving to GCP or nvidia whenever I decide to, it'll probably be a locked down offering like some services we are starting to see today :(
And then you DO put your files in the cloud, and they scan them and ban you because they don't like your files.
(Note, this actually happened a while back)
(Note, this actually happened a while back)
I am hoping for UX refresh instead of a UI refresh. UI is on the surface, UX is everything else.
I am genuinely hoping for more pen & touch-screen focused accomodations too. The keyboard/mouse experience for windows is already decent enough, but these new input devices need help. This is especially true with the ipad pro becoming more of a general purpose computing device.
Lastly, I hope windows puts more care into revamping curation of various app/program stores/managers. Chocolatey is great, but is a pain to use and isn't as widely supported. The windows store has a few gems in what is a sea f spam apps.
Lastly Lastly, better native tiling, search and workspace management please. (I know powertoys exists, but why not integrate it directly)
I am genuinely hoping for more pen & touch-screen focused accomodations too. The keyboard/mouse experience for windows is already decent enough, but these new input devices need help. This is especially true with the ipad pro becoming more of a general purpose computing device.
Lastly, I hope windows puts more care into revamping curation of various app/program stores/managers. Chocolatey is great, but is a pain to use and isn't as widely supported. The windows store has a few gems in what is a sea f spam apps.
Lastly Lastly, better native tiling, search and workspace management please. (I know powertoys exists, but why not integrate it directly)
Not again. Now, anno 2021, it's so messy with all different UI-kits they've standardized in the past 20+ years that a Linux desktop looks clean in comparison.
If the community wouldn't continuously bork desktop efforts searching for the ultimate twm like experience, juggling xterms.
Agreed. Windows is the result of an ugly monkey eating a bat, then fucking a sick poodle and the bastard child being raised by a fish.
>This UI refresh will reportedly include an overhaul to the Start Menu, Action Center and some in-box/bundled Microsoft apps, and they will be an optional change.
How often has an optional change become the only option after awhile?
How often has an optional change become the only option after awhile?
Windows just adds this stuff and keeps the old cruft (in some cases it’s necessary because the Win 10 network settings are so awfully lacking you need the legacy option). We now have settings dating back to Win 95 with no uniform guideline concept or lack of vision.
I hope they improve the start menu search and prevent cases when right clicking a file can freeze the PC frequently.
Right-click freeze has literally never happened to me. Check that you don't have misbehaving shell extensions: the most common culprit is a program that adds its own item to the right-click menu but doesn't play well with others and winds up hanging when the shell asks it what it wants to do.
This seems like issues that just shouldn't be allowed to happen. An unresponsive extension, a network drive not answering etc should never need to block the UI - yet it always did in Windows. They really really need to make all such things async and simply show the context menus without the extensions, or show a spinner when explorer wants to show a slow network location.
That the message pump of the explorer windows stop because a server in another country is down must be a design that is extremely hard to change in windows explorer - because they have surely seen this problem.
That the message pump of the explorer windows stop because a server in another country is down must be a design that is extremely hard to change in windows explorer - because they have surely seen this problem.
>They really really need to make all such things async and simply show the context menus without the extensions
but then you have another problem: if the system load is high (eg. hard drive is busy), then context menu items would randomly disappear. That's arguably worse than before, because it happens randomly.
>or show a spinner
you mean this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_wait_cursor
but then you have another problem: if the system load is high (eg. hard drive is busy), then context menu items would randomly disappear. That's arguably worse than before, because it happens randomly.
>or show a spinner
you mean this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_wait_cursor
I think they meant show a spinner in place of the blocking entry.
I second the shell extension thing. This is the tool to use: https://www.nirsoft.net/utils/shexview.html
I just windows-q and type the name of the application I want and it always works. Don’t even know what the start menu looks like.
I look forward to this, but I have been hearing about a major UI overhaul to make the Windows UI "beautiful" since Windows 10 launched...and it has basically never happened. It is incredible how Apple can launch a major UI overhaul (which I think looks great) while Microsoft has more or less the same look as Windows did when 10 first launched (granted it has gotten some good features since then.)
Edit: this thread is full of Linux stans (I use Linux too!) calling Windows a POS... I don't see how that is helpful or relevant to anything. Windows is actually...very good. It has some problems, but uh, using Linux and even MacOS, every OS has its share of problems/difficulties.
Edit: this thread is full of Linux stans (I use Linux too!) calling Windows a POS... I don't see how that is helpful or relevant to anything. Windows is actually...very good. It has some problems, but uh, using Linux and even MacOS, every OS has its share of problems/difficulties.
How is comparing the UI/UX of one OS to another OS _NOT_ relevant to an article about one OS UI/UX revamp?
I'm not sure what you mean? I just compared the UI/UX to MacOS...that is relevant. Others in the thread simply saying "Windows is a POS" etc etc is not relevant.
I eagerly await a third control panel.
If I could have two things out of the new UI:
Right now you can't blindly mouse up and over in Microsoft Edge to get to the leftmost tab since that space is reserved for the browser window and clicking it will un-maximize the window or minimize it when you click again expecting to arrive at your email.
I'd also like to be able to open Internet Explorer when I open the start menu, type in "internet explorer" and click the listing with the IE logo marked "Internet Explorer" Around half the time this opens Microsoft Edge.
This is probably asking for too much though.
Right now you can't blindly mouse up and over in Microsoft Edge to get to the leftmost tab since that space is reserved for the browser window and clicking it will un-maximize the window or minimize it when you click again expecting to arrive at your email.
I'd also like to be able to open Internet Explorer when I open the start menu, type in "internet explorer" and click the listing with the IE logo marked "Internet Explorer" Around half the time this opens Microsoft Edge.
This is probably asking for too much though.
I'm really hoping they force more touch like features on mouse and keyboard users. I really appreciate having to swipe things with my mouse. /s
Where in Windows do you have to do that?
There have been rumors about the 'Sun Valley' gui refresh for months. This is from October https://www.windowscentral.com/windows-10-sun-valley-ui-octo.... Its not exactly a surprised either, Windows 10 was released in 2016(?).
If they could just consolidate the half-dozen control panels with both overlapping and disjoint functionality I would be happy.
ugh. I seriously hope this is after the next LTSC so I don't have to deal with it for another decade.
Microsoft's OSes are not about the user anymore. It is just freeware to sell ads or subscriptions.
The upside I see with this PM-driven UI churn is that Linux desktop might be worthwhile for more users.
The upside I see with this PM-driven UI churn is that Linux desktop might be worthwhile for more users.
You know it's sad when I feel no anxiety over a major redesign. It's so awful right now that the idea of them throwing it all in the trash and starting over is very appealing.
I still have that anxiety. I think it's fine now and I don't want Microsoft to go crazy on UI again.
They haven’t finished the last one yet.
I look forward to a redesign of some, but not all, of the system preferences, so that there are three distinct styles of preference pane with different partially disjoint sets of options, that you have to go hunting through to find the setting you want.
Ehh I bet that will happen again. I can just picture some PM somewhere:
"Well most of our users aren't using those settings, why bother putting in dev time to update them. Lets just push out the main UI update as an MVP then come back later* and update the more obscure settings."
*Narrator: "they didn't"
"Well most of our users aren't using those settings, why bother putting in dev time to update them. Lets just push out the main UI update as an MVP then come back later* and update the more obscure settings."
*Narrator: "they didn't"
> *Narrator: "they didn't"
I know you weren't referring to Narrator the screen reader here, but I can't resist. While I was on the Windows accessibility team, which owns Narrator, we actually did phase out the old Narrator settings UI in favor of the new, UWP-based one.
I know you weren't referring to Narrator the screen reader here, but I can't resist. While I was on the Windows accessibility team, which owns Narrator, we actually did phase out the old Narrator settings UI in favor of the new, UWP-based one.
Only three? I'm pretty sure I can already count at least 3 UI fads that have come and gone in my Windows 10 install. Somehow it's gotten worse each time... I'm trying not to sound like a grumpy old man but it feels like each revision is more geared towards mobile device users and the product sees a corresponding loss of flexibility and configurability.
"This UI refresh will reportedly include an overhaul to the Start Menu, Action Center and some in-box/bundled Microsoft apps, and they will be an optional change. "
Call me cynical but I doubt they will be "optional" for long. At launch perhaps, but Microsoft has tended to transition the "optional" into the "default" then into the "only" version in the past.
Call me cynical but I doubt they will be "optional" for long. At launch perhaps, but Microsoft has tended to transition the "optional" into the "default" then into the "only" version in the past.
if it was only just the UI
the internals of the OS are also problematic
on top of that UWP/XAML story is not really that good when you compare to SwiftUI on macOS
the whole macOS experience is what they should AIM for
but that means giving up on all the legacy bits that keep stacking up since forever..
Windows need a massive spring cleanup, i'd say a reboot, but i'm not sure the people are microsoft are this courageous, i have the feeling they are just lazy
the internals of the OS are also problematic
on top of that UWP/XAML story is not really that good when you compare to SwiftUI on macOS
the whole macOS experience is what they should AIM for
but that means giving up on all the legacy bits that keep stacking up since forever..
Windows need a massive spring cleanup, i'd say a reboot, but i'm not sure the people are microsoft are this courageous, i have the feeling they are just lazy
I hope they finally fully implement/hide most of the old era Windows UI elements. Biggest one I still use to this day is the control panel.
Why? The old control panel is infinitely more useful in most cases than the new one. Just look at Add/Remove programs -- the new one is ridiculous compared to the classic one.
I'm not against the new Settings dialog but I don't see why anything that works needs to be removed.
I'm not against the new Settings dialog but I don't see why anything that works needs to be removed.
It is my understanding that the biggest issue with Control Panel is 3rd party control panel widgets that would be incompatible with any wholesale changes. That may of course just be the official party line too...
Unlikely to happen soon and also happen all at once. Device manager, Log viewer and a bunch of other system tools basically look the same as they've done since I think the 90s. Nothing wrong with that, the stuff works and changing it will just incur extra costs for everyone involved.
Worth mentioning Windows 10X -- seems like it's coming eventually.
https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2019/10/02/intro...
https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2019/10/02/intro...
I don't understand why everybody is concerned about the settings or the control panel interfaces. Is that really what you're dealing with all day? I spend as little time as possible messing with that stuff.
Does it run your apps? Is the window management bearable? Are things running fast and responsive? Those are my concerns.
Does it run your apps? Is the window management bearable? Are things running fast and responsive? Those are my concerns.
It would be great if they let you customize the start menu tiles. All my videogames looked like crap, unless they were from xbox gamepass. It takes a lot of work to use third party tile apps, and you can't even pin a UWP app through it
I want the classic theme back.
Hopefully they will explore tiling window manager concepts further.
I think one area for productivity improvement is to make it easier to split screen between apps. Of course it’s doable already, but could be better and easier.
I think one area for productivity improvement is to make it easier to split screen between apps. Of course it’s doable already, but could be better and easier.
I have been using Windows since 2.x (It actually ran on my IBM PS/2 model 25) and I have this to say to Microsoft about their GUIs:
You are boring and have developed no imagination in 30 years.
You are boring and have developed no imagination in 30 years.
It'll be BACK for me when I won't have to use Open Shell but somehow I feel it'll become even more necessary...
They've already rebranded alot of roles, no longer is there a "TAM" role.
Product manager/Program manager next it seems...
Product manager/Program manager next it seems...
side comment: An animated pie chart of most popular desktop & laptop operating systems from 2003 to 2020.
https://twitter.com/randal_olson/status/1344021969096720384
https://twitter.com/randal_olson/status/1344021969096720384
Maybe we'll get lucky and create an API that allows you to use Linux desktop environments.
who cares about the ui? why can't they just fix their shitty os? even wsl2 is known to break git repositories for unknown reasons.
my only use for windows is for gaming use cases, otherwise I stick with linux
my only use for windows is for gaming use cases, otherwise I stick with linux
user interfaces have only gotten worse since windows 2000
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I hope they will do a Windows 7 "back", but knowing them they'll probably the horrible Windows 8 instead
They acknowledged that with Project Reunion, where Win32 and UWP are supposed to be merged, but with what is going on, and probably other internal issues, it has been very slow at bringing out that vision.
windows 7 was good. They could have just stopped with it. Make some security upgrades and call it a day.
Sinofsky....
I'm hoping they finally bring native tabs to their file explorer. It's annoying to have to open multiple windows if you want to browse multiple directories. In addition, I'm hoping for a "column view" like mac has.
It's had native tabs for a while now?
File Explorer does not have tabs, like a browser has. You might be thinking of the Ribbon UI?
Here's an opinion: desktop UIs are mature. They serve their purpose outstandingly well. The best thing you could do is revert most of the last 10 years of "innovation" and then leave them alone forever. Stop reinventing stuff that has worked well for decades.