Review broken products instead of new ones(buyforlife.com)
buyforlife.com
Review broken products instead of new ones
https://www.buyforlife.com/blog/6CNqJGMKraaQhfivS0EH6L/why-we-should-review-broken-products-instead-of-new-ones
120 comments
I find it meaningful that all items (currently) displayed at https://www.buyforlife.com/ are typical outdoor use, high-quality, representative for a certain kind of living.
This kind of living has pros and cons, but I guess not everybody wants to live like that. For instance, some people would prefer to have some shitty but portable kitchenware instead of expensive, bulky and representative "professional" units.
This is a bit of "urban" lifestyle against "suburbia" lifestyle, or "downshifter" lifestyle, or "countryside" lifestyle.
For instance, I am a bit aware of the "zero waste" community. These people would probably buy a single macbook (because it is stylish and looks as if you had taste, not neccessarily because it is high quality), but no kitchen device at all, because such devices express the "wrong" style of life. Similar arguments could probably be made about some certain kind of hacker culture. People buying hoodies and thinkpads because it is "in vogue".
This is probably the main reason why just another review page won't take off: The products are not "in vogue".
Just my two cents. Very emotional, not objective at all.
This kind of living has pros and cons, but I guess not everybody wants to live like that. For instance, some people would prefer to have some shitty but portable kitchenware instead of expensive, bulky and representative "professional" units.
This is a bit of "urban" lifestyle against "suburbia" lifestyle, or "downshifter" lifestyle, or "countryside" lifestyle.
For instance, I am a bit aware of the "zero waste" community. These people would probably buy a single macbook (because it is stylish and looks as if you had taste, not neccessarily because it is high quality), but no kitchen device at all, because such devices express the "wrong" style of life. Similar arguments could probably be made about some certain kind of hacker culture. People buying hoodies and thinkpads because it is "in vogue".
This is probably the main reason why just another review page won't take off: The products are not "in vogue".
Just my two cents. Very emotional, not objective at all.
You pinpointed what I’ve been feeling. There are things I want to buy for life. Things like (most) tools, camping equipment, or things I don’t expect to improve over time. But there is a large number of products that I don’t plan to hold onto because they are imperfect either because state of the art hasn’t advanced enough or because I can’t afford the better version yet. For example:
Boots. I can afford the boots I can afford today and I like them. But I am sure that 10 years from now I’ll be able to afford better ones.
Coffee mugs. I currently sport a Yeti that will likely last me at least 50 years. But I also expect that better coffee mugs will come.
Smart watch and mobile phone and laptop. No matter what, Moore’s law will catch up with you. And developers dislike worrying about running software on old hardware.
Clothing. Yes I know, but I do to an extent care about how I look and showing up somewhere in pleated pants and a plaid suit today because you bought it 30 years ago and it’s still holding up isn’t something I can pull off.
Vehicles. Yes, even your Tesla will become obsolete. There will be one that will be a no brainer upgrade.
This isn’t to say that I want to buy junk. But a $6 T shirt lasts me about two years and a $60 T shirt will need to last me more than 20 to make it worth it. In the mean time my body might change, my tastes might change, and styles might change. Timeless styles are a thing but when you spill red wine on it and can’t get the stain out four years in, who is your next move?
Also emotional and not objective, FWIW.
Boots. I can afford the boots I can afford today and I like them. But I am sure that 10 years from now I’ll be able to afford better ones.
Coffee mugs. I currently sport a Yeti that will likely last me at least 50 years. But I also expect that better coffee mugs will come.
Smart watch and mobile phone and laptop. No matter what, Moore’s law will catch up with you. And developers dislike worrying about running software on old hardware.
Clothing. Yes I know, but I do to an extent care about how I look and showing up somewhere in pleated pants and a plaid suit today because you bought it 30 years ago and it’s still holding up isn’t something I can pull off.
Vehicles. Yes, even your Tesla will become obsolete. There will be one that will be a no brainer upgrade.
This isn’t to say that I want to buy junk. But a $6 T shirt lasts me about two years and a $60 T shirt will need to last me more than 20 to make it worth it. In the mean time my body might change, my tastes might change, and styles might change. Timeless styles are a thing but when you spill red wine on it and can’t get the stain out four years in, who is your next move?
Also emotional and not objective, FWIW.
>> Yes, even your Tesla will become obsolete
not sure if this is tongue-in-cheek; your Tesla will become obsolete far sooner than your Honda civic will, and it's already 20 years old.
not sure if this is tongue-in-cheek; your Tesla will become obsolete far sooner than your Honda civic will, and it's already 20 years old.
> a $60 T shirt will need to last me more than 20 to make it worth it.
And then there's the $120 T-shirt they endorse: https://www.buyforlife.com/products/33/outlier-ultra-fine-me...
That better last more than 40 years and be wholly responsible for saving my life +1 family member, wash/dry on any cycle I want, and never get chewed up by mice if I leave it on floor.
And then there's the $120 T-shirt they endorse: https://www.buyforlife.com/products/33/outlier-ultra-fine-me...
That better last more than 40 years and be wholly responsible for saving my life +1 family member, wash/dry on any cycle I want, and never get chewed up by mice if I leave it on floor.
I wear merino wool t-shirts to bike to work because they don't get smelly, however, they actually wear out much faster than cheap synthetic shirts. I usually buy them on clearance/sale for $30-40. $70-120 is nuts for a t-shit. I also don't understand how that can be buy it for life anyways. Its a cloth shirt, maybe its decently made but any synthetic fabric will last longer (still not forever).
I have a couple sets of cotton t-shirts, about 5-8. Have had them for 5 years already, wear them daily and normally for 1, 2 Max before going back to the wash basket. Cost me perhaps 3€ a piece. I don’t see the need for these wonderfully expensive extravaganza...
As I said in my post, they don't get smelly so for me the $40 is worth it, they still last easily dozens of wears so the cost is minimal and I don't have deal with a sweaty smelly shirt in my bag at work. Also, I don't find a cotton shirt the most comfortable for active use.
The estimated monthly cost for that T-shirt is higher than kitchen appliances listed on the site. A mixer is rated at $2.73 per month. A fridge at $7.64/month is less expensive than two of these T-shirts. That T-shirt is clearly overpriced.
Yes. If I need a shirt that will be critical to what I’m doing, it might be worth it. Something to keep me warm in a critical situation. But I wouldn’t expect it to last me for life, just be high quality to not fail unexpectedly.
> Boots. I can afford the boots I can afford today and I like them. But I am sure that 10 years from now I’ll be able to afford better ones.
If you can get 10 years out of a pair of boots it means they were good. I've had a pair of Caterpillar boots break after 2 years. I'm happy to see a review site with a strong focus on long term ownership.
If you can get 10 years out of a pair of boots it means they were good. I've had a pair of Caterpillar boots break after 2 years. I'm happy to see a review site with a strong focus on long term ownership.
>camping equipment
There's a lot of variation. Materials change. Stuff wears out. I have old gear and I have gear I've replaced because what I wanted wasn't available 10 years ago.
As for boot. I have custom boot that I've had for a couple decades (and have had repaired). But they're heavy and I don't wear them for everything.
There's a lot of variation. Materials change. Stuff wears out. I have old gear and I have gear I've replaced because what I wanted wasn't available 10 years ago.
As for boot. I have custom boot that I've had for a couple decades (and have had repaired). But they're heavy and I don't wear them for everything.
I don’t camp enough so for me longevity is the more important one I guess, but mostly I just want things that will dial reliably and predictably.
Boots: I specifically mostly wear motorcycle boots and the tech on those is evolving quite fast.
Boots: I specifically mostly wear motorcycle boots and the tech on those is evolving quite fast.
We probably shouldn't take "for life" any more literally than we do the "four hour workweek". It represents an idea. You might not want your boots to last forever and may in fact decide to replace them after 6 years. But if they were sufficiently well made, then you'll get more for them when you sell them and they'll last longer for the next owner if you sell or donate them.
Pleated trousers are cool again though. If anything, flat fronted slim fit chinos are what's dated.
There's a fair chance my 1999 ford mondeo v6 will still guzzle gas when the 2020 Teslas need their batteries replaced.
I _DO_ want an electric car, but I want it with a built in nuclear energy source that'll last at least 500k km before needing replacement.
I _DO_ want an electric car, but I want it with a built in nuclear energy source that'll last at least 500k km before needing replacement.
Without knowing much about the site or where the items came from, you might be seeing a big founder effect based on the creator's interests (and, inevitably, the biases that likely builds into their network, etc.) But these things change.
Any effort to judge product quality is going to have some skew towards more expensive products--the stakes are just higher--but I think there's a risk here of conflating style, quality, durability, and price.
Most of us have probably had at least one ~expensive product marketed on quality that broke jaw-droppingly fast. We've probably all also bought some cheap utilitarian workhorse that lasted for decades.
Some of us care a lot about style and signalling, it's true, but I don't think many of the rest actually want to own crap?
Any effort to judge product quality is going to have some skew towards more expensive products--the stakes are just higher--but I think there's a risk here of conflating style, quality, durability, and price.
Most of us have probably had at least one ~expensive product marketed on quality that broke jaw-droppingly fast. We've probably all also bought some cheap utilitarian workhorse that lasted for decades.
Some of us care a lot about style and signalling, it's true, but I don't think many of the rest actually want to own crap?
> This kind of living has pros and cons, but I guess not everybody wants to live like that.
I suspect that if you gave everyone a choice of what products they want, they would gravitate toward the better made, longer lasting ones. However those often cost considerably more for incremental improvement, or for improvements you may not need (eg massive service interval for something rarely used).
Up front cost is a massive consideration.
I suspect that if you gave everyone a choice of what products they want, they would gravitate toward the better made, longer lasting ones. However those often cost considerably more for incremental improvement, or for improvements you may not need (eg massive service interval for something rarely used).
Up front cost is a massive consideration.
Hi there, I checked out your website. It's a cool idea and one that is needed.
What do you think of the fact that many of the products are in fact disposable by backed by a "lifetime" warranty precisely because they're so highly marked up that the manufacturer can give you a new one for free instead of attempting even trivial repairs? Osprey is the king of this. This seems to be the opposite of the buy for life mentality - things should be repaired if economical, but no one repairs what they can get replaced for free.
What do you think of the fact that many of the products are in fact disposable by backed by a "lifetime" warranty precisely because they're so highly marked up that the manufacturer can give you a new one for free instead of attempting even trivial repairs? Osprey is the king of this. This seems to be the opposite of the buy for life mentality - things should be repaired if economical, but no one repairs what they can get replaced for free.
Very interesting point that I haven't thought of. How could we solve this? I guess after a lot of reviews/comments and some downvotes, it would become clear that Osprey doesn't provide a proper reapir service and is in fact, a wasteful company.
Depends what they’re doing with the old ones ...
Will I own the review after I create it?
Will it be shared by the community?
I don't trust your company .. or any single company. This task should be done a Wikipedia kind of company and the data should be available for anyone for free or a small fee.
Will it be shared by the community?
I don't trust your company .. or any single company. This task should be done a Wikipedia kind of company and the data should be available for anyone for free or a small fee.
Yes you will own the review after you created it. Trustworthiness is the main asset of this page. I'm even thinking about creating a non-profit org for it.
Interesting idea but is your site curated for some items or just 100% autogenerated/crowd sourced? For example, you have listed the Thinkpad X220 which is a 10 year old laptop. Furthermore I also noticed the Magic mouse and is that really considered buy it for life(in terms of repairable)? Speaking as someone who has purchased and accidentally destroyed multiple Magic Keyboards by liquid spills, I love their products but would never consider them "buy it for life" from a repair perspective.
The Thinkpad line was acquired by Lenovo from IBM in 2005. They've done a good job in maintaining the quality of the product line but some products with the 'Thinkpad' branding is absolute crap. Technology products are hard to rank for build quality in my opinion. When Lenovo again made an acquisition of Motorola Mobility in 2014, I thought they'd do a good job of maintaining Motorola phones just like Thinkpad. At first, you had almost a close to Vanilla version of Android with regular updates but since 2019+ they stopped maintaining Android Security updates and releasing whole Android versions on some of their bottom-tier phones. Things change quickly in the technology department so BIFL ranks are difficult.
Maybe I'm taking ths site name too literally, but I would think that computers, along with most electronics, are just one of those things that would never be a "buy it for life" purchase.
I actually do have a Casio calculator from High School (30+ years ago) that I still use, but no other computing devices that are more than 10 years old. Even if they still work, there just isn't much practical you can do with them.
I actually do have a Casio calculator from High School (30+ years ago) that I still use, but no other computing devices that are more than 10 years old. Even if they still work, there just isn't much practical you can do with them.
My Mid-2009 Macbook Pro is still good enough for most things.
My current private laptop ist 7 years old and still running fine. It's some dell laptop and I suppose it will fall apart at some point but so far I don't see why I would replace it. I wouldn't mind it lasting another 10 years.
Same for mice. I'd certainly use a mouse for 10+ years if it's good enough. I've invested in a quite expensive ergonomic, mechanical keyboard and I have a very old mechanical cherry keyboard at work and I do expect them to last forever.
If you don't need the latest sh*t (touch bars and what not) you'll probably be fine with current characteristics of laptops for quite a few years.
Same for mice. I'd certainly use a mouse for 10+ years if it's good enough. I've invested in a quite expensive ergonomic, mechanical keyboard and I have a very old mechanical cherry keyboard at work and I do expect them to last forever.
If you don't need the latest sh*t (touch bars and what not) you'll probably be fine with current characteristics of laptops for quite a few years.
I use a mechanical keyboard at home, but I won't use it at work as it would drive my fellow cube farm dwellers nuts. Is your keyboard a silent click one?
Cherry MX Brown... it's not that they are silent but nobody complained, yet. Never even heard a comment about it, really.
This is exactly the kind of initiative I've been looking for and thought about lately! Thanks so much!
I especially like the idea of rating products by their monthly/daily cost.
I imagine this growing in a direction where the manufacturers and producers have added initiative to produce durable products again.
Of course for real change to occur governments, regulation, large scale action would have to happen.
One vector which would be interesting to see this with is bigger and maybe even less consumer centric products. How durable is a delivery van? How durable and cost effective is a factory machine?
I especially like the idea of rating products by their monthly/daily cost.
I imagine this growing in a direction where the manufacturers and producers have added initiative to produce durable products again.
Of course for real change to occur governments, regulation, large scale action would have to happen.
One vector which would be interesting to see this with is bigger and maybe even less consumer centric products. How durable is a delivery van? How durable and cost effective is a factory machine?
I can't speak for the rest but factory "machines" are built to last in most cases and have long warranties and easily swappable components. Most of what's there can be machined in a pinch. I went to a glass factory one that had some machines that were 70+ years old. When something broke, which was pretty rare, they simply machined a new one. On a tangential note I expect my Lodge cast iron cooking set to last at least one lifetime :D
Excited about this. I love certain things because they simply last forever and do what they are supposed to. For example about 18 years ago I bought 2 HP12c calculators when I started working in finance (One for work, one for home). Not only have they not broken, but I can't tell you the battery life because they are both still on their original batteries. Now old hands tell me the new modern 12cs (like mine) aren't a patch on the original and the old ones from the 80s had even better battery life than that.
This makes a lot of sense. Very cool project.
Also, I noticed that the cost/month math seems off here https://www.buyforlife.com/products/10/kitchenaid-refrigerat.... For a 2 year warranty, looks like it calculates it as Total Price / 24 / 12, rather than Total Price/12.
Also, I noticed that the cost/month math seems off here https://www.buyforlife.com/products/10/kitchenaid-refrigerat.... For a 2 year warranty, looks like it calculates it as Total Price / 24 / 12, rather than Total Price/12.
It's where the bodies are buried by people who actually use products, not the usual glowing, happy-clappy nonsense of new customers or fake reviews.
I worry in the long term that this becomes immeasurable for some products. I have a leather belt that's at least 15 years old. I would bet the product, and perhaps the company, does not exist any longer.
Speaking of useful reviews, I'm a fan of AvE's BOLTRs[1]. Takes tools apart and analyses materials, construction, and estimated failure points. (Beware some NSFW language though.)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvgS71fU12Mbx-w18Chu_...
[1] - Arduino vs. Evil - Bored of Lame Tool Reviews
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvgS71fU12Mbx-w18Chu_...
[1] - Arduino vs. Evil - Bored of Lame Tool Reviews
AvE is fun to watch, and full of cool insights into the underappreciated details of tools. but you've got to take his reviews with a few grains of salt. He's coming at it from the perspective of somebody who buys tools to use in heavy industry. If you're buying a cordless drill to hang pictures or maybe build a desk or a fence once a decade, the things he derides as being "not very skookum" will likely last you a lifetime.
Maybe you actually do need an angle grinder rated for an 8-hour duty cycle. But don't buy one just because a YouTuber told you you do. That DeWalt is probably fine.
Maybe you actually do need an angle grinder rated for an 8-hour duty cycle. But don't buy one just because a YouTuber told you you do. That DeWalt is probably fine.
My heuristic is to first buy the cheap version of a tool. If I use it enough to break it, I then buy a more skookum version.
Are you me?
This is the exact same method I've used to buy tools for ages. Still using the same 19€ corded hammer drill I got 20 years ago to punch some holes in a concrete wall.
On the other hand, my cordless drills is the more skookum version after the cheapo one crapped out on me mid-drywall.
This is the exact same method I've used to buy tools for ages. Still using the same 19€ corded hammer drill I got 20 years ago to punch some holes in a concrete wall.
On the other hand, my cordless drills is the more skookum version after the cheapo one crapped out on me mid-drywall.
And Harbor Freight makes buying the cheap version as easy can be.
He almost always breaks that down thou.
He also takes apart tools that have failed on him. Recently he had a pair of videos on a couple of cordless impact drivers purchased in bulk that both failed after not much use. So, reviewing failed products.
I really enjoyed AvE channel at first. I’d definitely recommend it to anyone interested in equipment tear downs.
He uses his own colorful language to describe things. If it’s not appealing to you (I eventually grew tired of it) I’d still suggest you look past it and watch a few dozen of his videos anyway.
Lots of good insight on the manufacturing industry/process that I haven’t seen anywhere else.
He uses his own colorful language to describe things. If it’s not appealing to you (I eventually grew tired of it) I’d still suggest you look past it and watch a few dozen of his videos anyway.
Lots of good insight on the manufacturing industry/process that I haven’t seen anywhere else.
Picture a Canadian who's spent his career doing technical (equipment repair) work in mining and other heavy industry.
He has a pretty deep knowledge of many things though.
He has a pretty deep knowledge of many things though.
He did a great and hilarious teardown of that failed Juicero product that came out a year or so ago [1], noting how ridiculously overengineered and expensive it is to produce.
1: https://youtu.be/_Cp-BGQfpHQ
1: https://youtu.be/_Cp-BGQfpHQ
The Juicero the physical embodiment of Ego and CV-driven development. People wanted to make the coolest shit possible, using the coolest tools, with no regard to cost or practicality.
People do the same thing in software, but it's not as readily visible as with physical products.
People do the same thing in software, but it's not as readily visible as with physical products.
That guy is full of basic wisdom. Big fan here. Love the language too. Exemplary shop talker.
You can also rent tools these days.
Most people don't need most hardware tools most of the time.
Most people don't need most hardware tools most of the time.
This is a good idea, but a lot of products are only sold for a few years before being discontinued; reading a review for a printer that's no longer sold (except secondhand) is unfortunately not very useful.
I think this practice is hand-in-glove with the general commercial model that a review site like this inherently pushes back against, though?
In any case, I've daydreamed about doing something along these lines, plus an aggressive list of policies that companies/products/brands are delisted for violating (i.e., delisting brands when teardowns find anything they went out of their way to engineer for predictable failure).
In any case, I've daydreamed about doing something along these lines, plus an aggressive list of policies that companies/products/brands are delisted for violating (i.e., delisting brands when teardowns find anything they went out of their way to engineer for predictable failure).
Engineering things for predictable failure is often necessary when the alternative is a worse, dangerous failure further down the line. The classical example of this is the fuse - it's a device designed to fail first in order to prevent other, more destructive failures. I know that's not the kind of engineered failure point you're thinking of, but it's important to understand that things like this may actually have good reasons.
You could then buy it second hand no? Buying second hand is the best possible outcome from the environmental perspective. One of the downsides is that there’s often no warranty. This site could help alleviate that because you can pick out the products less likely to need that warranty in the first place.
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Product revisions are indeed a challenge. I plan to add a way to say "this was an older version, but here is the current model, which has still the same level of quality".
There are precedents for this. One that comes to mind are updated editions/versions of board/tabletop games, which https://boardgamegeek.com/ tries to handle.
You're right but if a company can convince consumers that they've done it once, they're surely able to do it again. Unfortunately, technology changes too quickly for that to work in many cases.
I’ve also seen companies with quality brands milk it for all it’s worth. Newer products get made with 1/4 the quality while trading on the reputation they built with their previous higher quality products.
Craftsman was a good example of this. They use to have high quality tools with lifetime warranties. Now, that warranty is gone and they don’t seem much different than any other low end manufacturer.
Anyone have other examples?
Craftsman was a good example of this. They use to have high quality tools with lifetime warranties. Now, that warranty is gone and they don’t seem much different than any other low end manufacturer.
Anyone have other examples?
Pyrex. The new stuff you buy now is a different product made out of a different material than the original glass cookwear they sold. The new stuff has much poorer thermal shock resistance.
https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/pyrex-glass-is...
https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/pyrex-glass-is...
Sadly, this is because the old stuff was _really great_ for making illegal drugs. Pyrex is just one bit of collateral damage in the war on drugs: https://www.popsci.com/science/article/2011-03/gray-matter-c...
The fundamental problem with easy repairability is that you need to maintain availability of replacement parts. How can you expect that a given piece of equipment is repairable if you cannot get a replacement PCB? Manufacturing the old electronics is often not possible because regulations change. When leaded solder was banned, some old PCB designs were unaffected, others had to be redone. Components may no longer be available.
So if you had to do a repair job it is entirely possible that a replacement PCB has to be designed from scratch. Doing this for every model is not possible so there would have to be a standard PCB used by all models. Considering the high degree of integration in many products, that is a pipe dream.
The only real solution is longer warranties to keep the manufacturer accountable.
So if you had to do a repair job it is entirely possible that a replacement PCB has to be designed from scratch. Doing this for every model is not possible so there would have to be a standard PCB used by all models. Considering the high degree of integration in many products, that is a pipe dream.
The only real solution is longer warranties to keep the manufacturer accountable.
> The only real solution is longer warranties
> maintain availability of replacement parts
That sounds like requirements for military use. On a civilian level, there are certainly other, less hard-nosed possibilities. Legislature could mandate the following instead:
• The manufacturer is forbidden to prevent a supplier from offering replacement parts on the free market.
• The manufacturer is forbidden from coercing a supplier to slightly modify a standard part just to make it incompatible and thus cripple third-party repair.
• The manufacturer must supply a repair manual with component data sheets and schematics so that a suitable replacement part can be produced by third parties.
Thus we return to the standard of repairability we enjoyed in the previous century. These ideas are free to implement or certainly magnitudes less expensive than keeping stock of replacement parts which takes the wind out of the sails of opposition to these changes in ordinance or law.
> maintain availability of replacement parts
That sounds like requirements for military use. On a civilian level, there are certainly other, less hard-nosed possibilities. Legislature could mandate the following instead:
• The manufacturer is forbidden to prevent a supplier from offering replacement parts on the free market.
• The manufacturer is forbidden from coercing a supplier to slightly modify a standard part just to make it incompatible and thus cripple third-party repair.
• The manufacturer must supply a repair manual with component data sheets and schematics so that a suitable replacement part can be produced by third parties.
Thus we return to the standard of repairability we enjoyed in the previous century. These ideas are free to implement or certainly magnitudes less expensive than keeping stock of replacement parts which takes the wind out of the sails of opposition to these changes in ordinance or law.
I don't feel too bad about replacement parts being obsoleted for good reason (e.g. leaded solder or similar changes). My car/vacuum/desk/etc. might get hit by a meteor, or fall down the stairs, or otherwise be totaled. Life is full of risks.
What I care about is good intent and reasonable measures to support me for the lifetime of the product. In most cases, I can't get replacement parts because manufacturers discontinue them after a few years as a business choice, not because they have to. Most manufacturers rotate product models every year, and I presume it's expensive and not good business to stock parts for models from a decade ago. That's what I want to avoid. I'd like a manufacturer that will continue supporting me as long as reasonable.
What I do now is I look at manufacturer's web pages, and see the oldest products they still support. It's pathetically short.
My last vacuum lasted 15 years before replacement parts ceased to exist. I've been looking at upscale Dyson vacuums, and the oldest ones with replacement parts are a decade old from date-of-introduction (less from date-of-purchase, of course). For a $800 vacuum, that means you're looking at an annualized cost of $80-$160 before you're dumped on the curb.
Of course, there are companies which simply don't offer replacement parts. If a roller or belt fails, the vacuum is disposable. The TCO seems similar, since those don't run $800, though, and a $150 vacuum will probably last a couple of years before something breaks.
What I'd really like is a web site which compiles this sort of information.
What I care about is good intent and reasonable measures to support me for the lifetime of the product. In most cases, I can't get replacement parts because manufacturers discontinue them after a few years as a business choice, not because they have to. Most manufacturers rotate product models every year, and I presume it's expensive and not good business to stock parts for models from a decade ago. That's what I want to avoid. I'd like a manufacturer that will continue supporting me as long as reasonable.
What I do now is I look at manufacturer's web pages, and see the oldest products they still support. It's pathetically short.
My last vacuum lasted 15 years before replacement parts ceased to exist. I've been looking at upscale Dyson vacuums, and the oldest ones with replacement parts are a decade old from date-of-introduction (less from date-of-purchase, of course). For a $800 vacuum, that means you're looking at an annualized cost of $80-$160 before you're dumped on the curb.
Of course, there are companies which simply don't offer replacement parts. If a roller or belt fails, the vacuum is disposable. The TCO seems similar, since those don't run $800, though, and a $150 vacuum will probably last a couple of years before something breaks.
What I'd really like is a web site which compiles this sort of information.
This aligns with the question I ask colleagues and friends when they buy a product that is either the same, or similar to, a product I'm looking to buy soon -- what do you not like about it.
As noted elsewhere, there's usually an abundance of exuberant marketing material about what's to like with a product, but the oft' intentional gaps there are typically only recognised post-purchase by real world users/customers with no agenda.
As noted elsewhere, there's usually an abundance of exuberant marketing material about what's to like with a product, but the oft' intentional gaps there are typically only recognised post-purchase by real world users/customers with no agenda.
I recently had to replace a Bosch washer because the crappy plastic pump was too annoying/messy to replace.
I wish Consumer Reports or someone would do teardowns each year of their recommended washers/dryers/dishwashers/etc to look for shitty but critical moving parts and rate them appropriately. Finding anything about how these items will fail is an exercise in frustration since model numbers are frequently shuffled around year to year for minor/non-existant feature "upgrades".
I actually don't care all that much about how great a washer or whatever is at cleaning so much as I care that I never have to think about servicing/replacing it.
I wish Consumer Reports or someone would do teardowns each year of their recommended washers/dryers/dishwashers/etc to look for shitty but critical moving parts and rate them appropriately. Finding anything about how these items will fail is an exercise in frustration since model numbers are frequently shuffled around year to year for minor/non-existant feature "upgrades".
I actually don't care all that much about how great a washer or whatever is at cleaning so much as I care that I never have to think about servicing/replacing it.
> I wish Consumer Reports or someone would do teardowns
...so iFixit, but for appliances? I'd pay money for that.
...so iFixit, but for appliances? I'd pay money for that.
One of my favorite youtubers does this with power tools and other garage-that-doesn't-hold-cars appliances. (Arduino V Evil/AvE)
Takes things apart and critics the design, goes over some of the tradeoffs that might have gone into designing the thing, and tries to figure out what the failure modes are likely to be.
I wonder if anybody in the circle of youtubers around him does the same for appliances.
Takes things apart and critics the design, goes over some of the tradeoffs that might have gone into designing the thing, and tries to figure out what the failure modes are likely to be.
I wonder if anybody in the circle of youtubers around him does the same for appliances.
This would be a better idea if the site it promotes didn't have overreaching terms of service. If they get sued for defamation, you, who posted a review, have to pay their costs.[1] Despite the site being run from Zurich, the terms have the line "In any circumstances where the foregoing Arbitration Agreement permits the parties to litigate in court, the parties hereby agree to submit to the personal jurisdiction of the courts located within Netherlands County, California, for such purposes." There is no Netherlands County, California.
[1] https://www.buyforlife.com/terms-of-use
[1] https://www.buyforlife.com/terms-of-use
Looks like they used this site to generate boilerplate Terms of Use: https://www.termsofusegenerator.net/
Same text is used by quite a few websites: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22Netherlands+County%2C+Californi...
Same text is used by quite a few websites: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22Netherlands+County%2C+Californi...
Not the OP, but I’m willing to bet this is just a copy paste of some generic boiler plate t&c with a bad search and replace applied.
I agree it’s not good though, and if that is the case, they should definitely pay to have some created for specifically for their site
I agree it’s not good though, and if that is the case, they should definitely pay to have some created for specifically for their site
Nice snooping around!
Tbh, those are really big red flags, that I wonder if it's even possible to trust the rest of the article.
Edit:- Seems that Netherlands County, California was on some template T&C that a lot of small firms just copied.
Tbh, those are really big red flags, that I wonder if it's even possible to trust the rest of the article.
Edit:- Seems that Netherlands County, California was on some template T&C that a lot of small firms just copied.
Errors like that can backfire. The American Arbitration Association now requires that a company putting an AAA consumer arbitration clause in a contract must first get approval from the AAA, and pay a $500 fee. See rule R-12 in [1]. The AAA made this rule specifically to stop companies from using bad arbitration clauses in boilerplate contracts.
There's a database of companies which have registered.[2] BuyForLife isn't listed. The AAA's reviewers would probably have caught the bogus terms and rejected the clause. A company that didn't register can usually use AAA services after registering late, but there are extra fees they have to pay before they can proceed.
So the arbitration clause is probably invalid. That throws any dispute into court. Which court? Specifying "Netherland, California" as a venue would invalidate the choice of venue clause. So the default rules on venue apply. Consumers can generally sue where the consumer is.
So, any site using that boilerplate probably can be sued in small claims court. Actually, the AAA lets you do that even if consumer arbitration is specified. See rule R-9 in [1]. Consumers usually do better in small claims court than in arbitration. Especially since the company has to send someone, or they lose.
Bad contract drafting of one-sided contracts is a great way to create a legal mess for yourself.
[1] https://www.adr.org/sites/default/files/Consumer_Rules_Web_0...
[2] https://apps.adr.org/ClauseRegistryUI/faces/org/adr/extapps/...
There's a database of companies which have registered.[2] BuyForLife isn't listed. The AAA's reviewers would probably have caught the bogus terms and rejected the clause. A company that didn't register can usually use AAA services after registering late, but there are extra fees they have to pay before they can proceed.
So the arbitration clause is probably invalid. That throws any dispute into court. Which court? Specifying "Netherland, California" as a venue would invalidate the choice of venue clause. So the default rules on venue apply. Consumers can generally sue where the consumer is.
So, any site using that boilerplate probably can be sued in small claims court. Actually, the AAA lets you do that even if consumer arbitration is specified. See rule R-9 in [1]. Consumers usually do better in small claims court than in arbitration. Especially since the company has to send someone, or they lose.
Bad contract drafting of one-sided contracts is a great way to create a legal mess for yourself.
[1] https://www.adr.org/sites/default/files/Consumer_Rules_Web_0...
[2] https://apps.adr.org/ClauseRegistryUI/faces/org/adr/extapps/...
Thanks for the really thorough explanation!
I hope someday stores like Amazon will rate based on expected lifespan. I just had a receiver die. It was 8.5 years old, not really outdated... But those kinds of things should last a lot longer!
> I just had a receiver die. It was 8.5 years old, not really outdated... But those kinds of things should last a lot longer!
If it's just a capacitor that failed, it might be repairable for a few dollars. Electrolytic capacitors unfortunately have a finite lifetime, which gets worse with higher temperatures.
If it's just a capacitor that failed, it might be repairable for a few dollars. Electrolytic capacitors unfortunately have a finite lifetime, which gets worse with higher temperatures.
I’ve done this a few times, and kept my receiver running long after the first “pop”. Sometimes we are talking like less than $5 worth of capacitors from Digi-Key too. If you can solder you can replace them.
I honestly have no desire to fix it.
(I also was ready for Dolby Atmos and EArc... Things that most people don't care about.)
Do you think it's worth selling the broken receiver on eBay with no reserve?
(I also was ready for Dolby Atmos and EArc... Things that most people don't care about.)
Do you think it's worth selling the broken receiver on eBay with no reserve?
I wish Amazon would implement filter-by-warranty-length.
>Let me know what you think
Sometimes a thing is not broken, but it makes you uncomfortable and you only notice that later. Like one of my washing machines that beeped a couple of minutes before it unlocked its door. If this will fly, please allow to add such details into reviews, e.g. “not broken, but I hate it” status.
Sometimes a thing is not broken, but it makes you uncomfortable and you only notice that later. Like one of my washing machines that beeped a couple of minutes before it unlocked its door. If this will fly, please allow to add such details into reviews, e.g. “not broken, but I hate it” status.
Appliances have terrible design so often that I wonder if its intentional somehow. My parents bought brand new Jenn-Air appliances a few years ago, and the awful LCD menu takes like ≥5 taps (on a bad resistive touchscreen) to do anything, including start the microwave. Their 1994 midrange GE microwave/oven was more usable than luxury appliances from 2015
What make and model? I find it genius: "ah, there's the beep, time to finish my coffee before I go put the clothes in the dryer"
Speaking of repairing, learning a little bit about electronics and soldering has greatly improved my ability to fix various electronics. Usually it’s something small like a bad cap or mosfet.
I really believe they should teach basic electronic repair in school. A tiny bit goes a long way.
I really believe they should teach basic electronic repair in school. A tiny bit goes a long way.
YouTube is great for this. Search for: [model number] fix DIY. Your failure is probably the most common failure listed on YouTube. Confirm the diagnosis, order the $5-$20 worth of parts and start soldering!
I had a unit on electronics as part of my HS physics courses. Can't recall if it was first year or second year.
I really believe they should teach basic electronic repair in school. A tiny bit goes a long way.
Yea, learning some basic electronics and how solder in school (England, early-mid 90s) was one of the most useful skills they taught me.
Yea, learning some basic electronics and how solder in school (England, early-mid 90s) was one of the most useful skills they taught me.
This is somewhat the same as WW2 Abraham Wald's work about adding armor to planes [1]- when looking for volunrable airplane parts you should look into planes that didn't come back instead of those that did.
[1] https://medium.com/@penguinpress/an-excerpt-from-how-not-to-...
[1] https://medium.com/@penguinpress/an-excerpt-from-how-not-to-...
I can get another if I break it, so a clay cup trumps a grail. - Mirza Asadullah Khan Ghalib, classical Urdu and Persian poet from the Mughal Empire
.. via https://github.com/globalcitizen/taoup ... point being, sometimes expiring products are superior, it depends upon the use case.
.. via https://github.com/globalcitizen/taoup ... point being, sometimes expiring products are superior, it depends upon the use case.
So I recently went review-shopping for kitchen-aid style mixer appliance. One of the highest rated products contained a paragraph similar to: "Makes cracking noises when running under high load, 9/10". That thing was literally 10 minutes away from being a letterweight, but still highly rated...
I heard from somewhere that you can't listen to a review by someone without at least first knowing them. Which is a valid point when you consider the review that was left for 9/10.
Cracks and noises are OK for some but a huge issue for others - that review you mentioned literally appeals to both sides which is crazy.
Cracks and noises are OK for some but a huge issue for others - that review you mentioned literally appeals to both sides which is crazy.
Those noises meant the product was stripping gears during the first day of use while performing it's intended task.
Exactly, but some people will pass it off as nothing major. But others will lose their mind, phone customer service and demand the manager because there wasn't enough sticky tape on the packaging as well as the grinding gears, even a whiff of a lawsuit will get thrown out there no doubt.
It's completely dependent on the individual and their ability to determine what is wrong, what is right and what their experience is to be able to determine that their opinion is in line with what you would expect.
Remember that dress? Was it blue or gold? Same difference.
It's completely dependent on the individual and their ability to determine what is wrong, what is right and what their experience is to be able to determine that their opinion is in line with what you would expect.
Remember that dress? Was it blue or gold? Same difference.
Another thing that I am doing is to look at the distribution of reviews. This tells me about how likely it is to get a defective product out of the factory, or a product that is likely to break shortly after. I then compare different brands that have identical specs.
Unfortunately "Buy it for life" is not an achievable slogan.
Buy it for life products are low-tech products that survived, somehow, time. Often, their original producers didn't and we can only buy them in used condition. They are slightly obsolete and not everybody is fullfilled with them. E.g. An old Toyota.
Then there are "Buy it for life" products with a (more or less) guaranteed long lifespan but were not time tested yet. E.g. New gear built using best practices and materials.
Then there are good products. Stuff with a (more or less) guaranteed long lifespan but one day will become obsolete. E.g. Apple product, good shoes, etc.
Buy it for life products are low-tech products that survived, somehow, time. Often, their original producers didn't and we can only buy them in used condition. They are slightly obsolete and not everybody is fullfilled with them. E.g. An old Toyota.
Then there are "Buy it for life" products with a (more or less) guaranteed long lifespan but were not time tested yet. E.g. New gear built using best practices and materials.
Then there are good products. Stuff with a (more or less) guaranteed long lifespan but one day will become obsolete. E.g. Apple product, good shoes, etc.
Spending more for a “last a lifetime” product is super frustrating if you ever misplace that item.
In 2019 I bought a second hand thinkpad x260 for £200 as a durable travel laptop. It’s almost perfect, the battery life is great, i wish i could fix the two problems with it:
1. It overheats far too easily. I don’t need all the speed of the processor so undervolting would be a good fix but doesn’t appear possible in this bios. Making a custom cooling solution that doesn’t compromise travel-ability is beyond my skillset.
2. The screen is too low resolution, too low brightness and too restrictive on viewing angles. I’d love to be able to swap a better panel in.
In 2019 I bought a second hand thinkpad x260 for £200 as a durable travel laptop. It’s almost perfect, the battery life is great, i wish i could fix the two problems with it:
1. It overheats far too easily. I don’t need all the speed of the processor so undervolting would be a good fix but doesn’t appear possible in this bios. Making a custom cooling solution that doesn’t compromise travel-ability is beyond my skillset.
2. The screen is too low resolution, too low brightness and too restrictive on viewing angles. I’d love to be able to swap a better panel in.
Not sure if it's possible on Linux, but you should be able to undervolt from within the OS on windows at least. Intel has an extreme tuning utility or you could use throttlestop. Works well on my xps 15.
About the screen, swap is doable, easy and it's worth it. I changed the TN 720p on my X260 to an IPS 1080p.
Why dont they do it? I havent seen anywhere themdoing it in fact from their website
"Free, hand curated updates on new products for people who think quality and sustainability matters."
Lawsuits from manufacturers seems like how this would die.
No prob! Read the terms of service. If they get sued, you, who posted, have to pay. That's what "indemnification" means.
I know what it means, but it depends on section 230 staying alive. I meant manufacturers suing users like restaurants suing yelpers. With such chilling effects, no one would want to use it.
What a great idea for getting people to use your Amazon referral code! Very creative, value adding, and well executed. Will use!
I think this is an excellent idea. This does need to take amounts owned/used/sold into account, since some products sell in larger amounts and must thus have more reports of being broken.
I often hear mechanics say "car X is terrible! we get those all the time!" and yeah, car X is the most sold car some years ago, duh.
I often hear mechanics say "car X is terrible! we get those all the time!" and yeah, car X is the most sold car some years ago, duh.
The idea has some attractive features. This implementation (by whom? affiliated with whom?) would have to be around for quite a while and visible without a log-in before I'd bother. Especially considering all the filters I had to forego to even see it.
I'd like some more details on how they are going to prevent the bogus, gamed product reviews that predominate on any other review site. Amazon hasn't cracked that nut (not that they have much to gain by doing so).
Similarly for safety gear, like bicycle helmets, I care very little about the aesthetics compared to how it actually fares in an accident. However, very few people will be in this situation, so it is almost impossible to find these most important reviews.
I’ve never hit subscribe faster on a pop up. You’ve nailed my interests.
Think Amazon will adopt an approach like this? Why or why not?
No. Because they want to sell much and often.
Nah. Amazon doesn't really care what you buy, as long as you buy something (from them). See also: Netflix
No, because their incentive goes the other way around: they want users to buy lots of things.
Reviews will eventually have to rely on non-store, external sites.
Reviews will eventually have to rely on non-store, external sites.
This doesn't make sense to me as it has the opposite effect. If I want to buy an item, I'm pretty dead set on buying it. Now it's just to figure out which company's to buy. If I can't rely on reviews and get a terrible unit, I will return it and no longer trust Amazon for that item and turn elsewhere. Ultimately, Amazon lost some money, I lost some time, and Amazon lost the sale.
These very helpful types of reviews won't be that helpful if by the time you get a review, the product has already been pulled from the market ...
As mentioned above:
Product revisions are indeed a challenge. I plan to add a way to say "this was an older version, but here is the current model, which has still the same level of quality".
It could be useful in understanding a brand, as long as the brand hasn't majorly changed their behaviors and the ingredients they use for their products
For once, let's turn it all upside down:
We should build a collection about how things break - review broken and worn-out products to teach how to identify cheap products (where are the stress points, what manufacturing techniques exist to alleviate those). Then compare those with used products well past their warranty period that hasn't broken, and look at why they haven't.
PS: I'm the creator of the community-driven Buy For Life platform. Let's overcome cheap products and keep corportaions accountable.