The Universal Warrior: The Many Faces of Battle(acoup.blog)
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The Universal Warrior: The Many Faces of Battle
https://acoup.blog/2021/02/05/collections-the-universal-warrior-part-iia-the-many-faces-of-battle/
32 comments
> So keep mum, and carry on pretending, playing along that you are indeed normal. One probable universal about the universal warrior; the real challenge isn't the battlefield, it's home afterwards.
The author actually discusses it in the first article on this series: it is the case for “soldiers” (people who have a life outside of war) but not for “warriors” (people who's identity is defined by the act of war): western knights were warriors, and as such, they never had to pretend normality: quite the opposite, they viewed themselves as a superior kind of men, deserving privileges, wealth etc. precisely because they knew war.
The author actually discusses it in the first article on this series: it is the case for “soldiers” (people who have a life outside of war) but not for “warriors” (people who's identity is defined by the act of war): western knights were warriors, and as such, they never had to pretend normality: quite the opposite, they viewed themselves as a superior kind of men, deserving privileges, wealth etc. precisely because they knew war.
> How do you think my silicon valley co-workers would look at me if they knew the truth of the things we did, and continue to do, in their name, despite what R or D prepends some puppet presidents name at the time?
I'm entirely comfortable with this knowledge. The only frustration is the communications barrier with the vast majority of people who think the two party kabuki theater they see on their propaganda of choice is in any way representative of how the US empire is actually run. If anything, I find it comforting because it makes it easy to ignore the now transparent emotional manipulations of those mainstream propagandists.
Edit: To be explicit, primary sources are the only ones that I believe have even a chance of not being thoroughly manipulated to achieve some contrived political end. Individual primary sources still have agendas, but often that agenda is simply to relay their experiences, or if they are attempting to be manipulative they aren't nearly as good at it as professional propagandists.
I'm entirely comfortable with this knowledge. The only frustration is the communications barrier with the vast majority of people who think the two party kabuki theater they see on their propaganda of choice is in any way representative of how the US empire is actually run. If anything, I find it comforting because it makes it easy to ignore the now transparent emotional manipulations of those mainstream propagandists.
Edit: To be explicit, primary sources are the only ones that I believe have even a chance of not being thoroughly manipulated to achieve some contrived political end. Individual primary sources still have agendas, but often that agenda is simply to relay their experiences, or if they are attempting to be manipulative they aren't nearly as good at it as professional propagandists.
> While there is sure to be a certain amount of variance between the kinds of people who are considered brave because of this, I think it is an archetype as Carl Jung talks about (he called it the Hero archetype of which the warrior is a subset) that applies throughout cultures and type of warfare.
I do wonder how much this is due to the modern culture of the military where a there is a lot of hero worship for ancient cultures and in particular a shared connection of warriorhood. The US Military and their rather queasy, often ahistorical love for Spartans for example.
Basically the idea that you could say sit a Spartan, Samurai and a modern Soldier down over beers and they'd be able to bond over a shared view of warriorhood feels questionable as a true statement. Even if it's useful for developing an ethos as a belief.
I do wonder how much this is due to the modern culture of the military where a there is a lot of hero worship for ancient cultures and in particular a shared connection of warriorhood. The US Military and their rather queasy, often ahistorical love for Spartans for example.
Basically the idea that you could say sit a Spartan, Samurai and a modern Soldier down over beers and they'd be able to bond over a shared view of warriorhood feels questionable as a true statement. Even if it's useful for developing an ethos as a belief.
> Basically the idea that you could say sit a Spartan, Samurai and a modern Soldier down over beers and they'd be able to bond over a shared view of warriorhood feels questionable as a true statement.
Why? Small group warfare is a behaviour we see in chimps. Ambush, massacre, occasionally something reasonably close to a pitched battle. Industrial warfare, the meat grinder of pitched battle attrition continuing for months, years, would be alien but precious little else would be. Drill, discipline, officers, enlisted, endless waiting punctuated by terror, killing like you’ve trained to do, rout. There’s a lot to bond over. There would be an enormous amount different too but if T.E. Lawrence, an English gentleman, was able to connect with Bedouin I don’t see any great difficulty with a samurai, spartiate and US infantryman.
Why? Small group warfare is a behaviour we see in chimps. Ambush, massacre, occasionally something reasonably close to a pitched battle. Industrial warfare, the meat grinder of pitched battle attrition continuing for months, years, would be alien but precious little else would be. Drill, discipline, officers, enlisted, endless waiting punctuated by terror, killing like you’ve trained to do, rout. There’s a lot to bond over. There would be an enormous amount different too but if T.E. Lawrence, an English gentleman, was able to connect with Bedouin I don’t see any great difficulty with a samurai, spartiate and US infantryman.
Right but did Lawrence connect with the Bedouin because of innate warriors kinship or something else? We can't just assume the former.
For the rest I'd recommend reading the article because it addresses this directly.
For the rest I'd recommend reading the article because it addresses this directly.
Lawrence was able to connect with Bedouin because he had ludicrously large piles of gold
It ignores the fact that most of soldiering and warrioring time was not spent actually fighting.
I bet that say an Egyptian chariot officer might have quite a bit of commonality of experience with say "The Chieftain" A modern day Armour Officer who does YouTube videos on tanks
Ah Cpl Jenkins has crashed his chariot / Humvee and killed the village headman's prize goat ... Beat ... Again!
I bet that say an Egyptian chariot officer might have quite a bit of commonality of experience with say "The Chieftain" A modern day Armour Officer who does YouTube videos on tanks
Ah Cpl Jenkins has crashed his chariot / Humvee and killed the village headman's prize goat ... Beat ... Again!
If not fighting counts as being a warrior then the whole idea collapses as that’s what the vast majority of people spend their time not doing. See below for example where information warfare gets derided as an unwarriorly pursuit despite being part of the military. It's the fighting bit that matters and why it's romanticized into self-help.
I suspect you are falling into the trap the author describes: you have your knowledge and personal experience of war, and you translate every other depiction you see of others' experience into that same experience.
What bolsters my confidence here is your last line:
> One probable universal about the universal warrior; the real challenge isn't the battlefield, it's home afterwards.
Okay, I don't have any personal experience with war. But from the conversations I've had, this is the complete opposite of the truth. There is a world of difference between Vietnam War veterans and Iraq/Afghanistan veterans. And again, there is another world of difference between either of those groups and World War II veterans. Why wouldn't there be? World War II was a war where virtually everyone of military age either fought or had close family who fought; Vietnam was an unpopular war where the bulk of the soldiers were draftees; Iraq was an unpopular war where everyone who fought volunteered to do so. The notion that the soldiers could have the same experience of "they just don't understand" is pretty unlikely.
What bolsters my confidence here is your last line:
> One probable universal about the universal warrior; the real challenge isn't the battlefield, it's home afterwards.
Okay, I don't have any personal experience with war. But from the conversations I've had, this is the complete opposite of the truth. There is a world of difference between Vietnam War veterans and Iraq/Afghanistan veterans. And again, there is another world of difference between either of those groups and World War II veterans. Why wouldn't there be? World War II was a war where virtually everyone of military age either fought or had close family who fought; Vietnam was an unpopular war where the bulk of the soldiers were draftees; Iraq was an unpopular war where everyone who fought volunteered to do so. The notion that the soldiers could have the same experience of "they just don't understand" is pretty unlikely.
No, I don't like this oversimplification. I have thought long and hard on this, and while yes, there are obvious differences between the wars of different generations, there are many things that transcend those differences. Of course, even some of the most grizzled people I know have spoken of some vietname/ww2 vets as a different breed, but what they are doing is downplaying their own tribulations as lesser, instead of just different, and I've often heard the nam vets tell the youngins to stop doing that. If your friend is laying there dying does it matter that he was drafted or if he voluntered? No. Of course the numbers are vastly different. 5669 for Iraq and Afghanistan wars (still ongoing) vs 47,424 for Vietnam and 291,557 for WW2. It's hard to explain what I mean about the after being the hard part. I'm not trying to downplay combat, it can be it's own kind of terrifying (and also it's own kind of the most addictive drug-esque high ever), but when thats what you train to do, day in, day out, for a long time, and are doing it, it becomes normal. Nobody trains you for getting out (though to their credit, the military and other resources have gotten vastly better at this since the earlier days of the war afaik). I know it's sort of a dichotomy, but many of my fellow combat vets have expressed this to me as well as it being my own personal experience. I would say there are a lot more similarities between Vietnam vets and GWOT vets than those two groups and WW1/2 vets, given that WW1/2 were completely different warfare types. That said, those wars also have another very different thing about them that makes the home part different, in that Vietnam and GWOT are quagmires without very clear reasons and justifications, which I personally think contributes more to PTSD than many want to admit (fighting an "unjust" war being harder to return to normal from).
> The notion that the soldiers could have the same experience of "they just don't understand" is pretty unlikely.
I don't understand what you mean by this statement. Care to expound?
> The notion that the soldiers could have the same experience of "they just don't understand" is pretty unlikely.
I don't understand what you mean by this statement. Care to expound?
> While I haven't ventured through time, I have grown up in the lands of those of what the author calls the first system of war, but have been trained in and participated in modern war, I see the type of person as being very much similar from both my limited reading of history and first-hand accounts of both bravery and cowardice. A good article with a lackluster conclusion.
I think it's fair to ask: in what way are they similar? The author touches on several ways in which they are different: the kind of courage required, the kind of fear encountered, and the kind of actions that are taken.
Is it possible that what is similar isn't the experience, but rather the way people who haven't had the experience treat it? "Hero", after all, is a title conferred (or we would more often call our enemies heroes). So maybe what's constant is the fact that warriors are held in great respect (though, per the previous entry, not always soldiers), even if they are quite different.
I think it's fair to ask: in what way are they similar? The author touches on several ways in which they are different: the kind of courage required, the kind of fear encountered, and the kind of actions that are taken.
Is it possible that what is similar isn't the experience, but rather the way people who haven't had the experience treat it? "Hero", after all, is a title conferred (or we would more often call our enemies heroes). So maybe what's constant is the fact that warriors are held in great respect (though, per the previous entry, not always soldiers), even if they are quite different.
The author talked about the similarity of them being in the hypervigilance, but the general tactics in modern wars so far have mostly been guerilla, which is very similar if not the same as what native americans engaged in. For example, raiding: we send a small squad out (warband), capture, kill, or destroy/confiscate property, and return before the enemy is aware of the location, or alternatively, setup ambush in expectation of the counter-attack. A common tactic we used to use in Iraq. The fear of being overrun, or crept up on in the night, which happened in Iraq but much more so in Afghanistan. Etc.
> How do you think my silicon valley co-workers would look at me if they knew the truth of the things we did, and continue to do, in their name, despite what R or D prepends some puppet presidents name at the time? So keep mum, and carry on pretending, playing along that you are indeed normal
Well, at least know you're not alone in this.
Well, at least know you're not alone in this.
Thank you.
> One probable universal about the universal warrior; the real challenge isn't the battlefield, it's home afterwards.
Speaking as an outsider, what’s interesting to me is that this seems inevitably true, but at the same time afaik we don’t really see it in the historical record. So, why? Why don’t we seem to have vocabulary for this from before WWI?
That opens up a whole can of worms about what kinds of sources we have, their POV, contexts, etc. But even if you can go digging around for subtext, you’d think you’d find something explicit somewhere. I certainly don’t have an answer.
Speaking as an outsider, what’s interesting to me is that this seems inevitably true, but at the same time afaik we don’t really see it in the historical record. So, why? Why don’t we seem to have vocabulary for this from before WWI?
That opens up a whole can of worms about what kinds of sources we have, their POV, contexts, etc. But even if you can go digging around for subtext, you’d think you’d find something explicit somewhere. I certainly don’t have an answer.
I remember on major Napoleonic History source commented that if you had a soldier like Sharpe who through from the sand dunes of Flanders all the way through to Waterloo, They would have had only a handful of high intensity hours of combat - which would have been exceeded in 2-3 days by the first units in D Day in Normandy.
> So keep mum, and carry on pretending, playing along that you are indeed normal.
This comment leads me to wonder about the relationships between this topic and neurodiversity.
This comment leads me to wonder about the relationships between this topic and neurodiversity.
> This comment leads me to wonder about the relationships between this topic and neurodiversity.
This is “neurodiversity”,just where some of the variation from the accepted baseline is environmentally induced after childhood, unlike those forms labelled as “developmental disorders” which definitionally manifest in childhood whatever their origin.
This is “neurodiversity”,just where some of the variation from the accepted baseline is environmentally induced after childhood, unlike those forms labelled as “developmental disorders” which definitionally manifest in childhood whatever their origin.
neurodiversity does cover both issues BTW
In the Hardcore History series about the Perisan/Greek wars ("King of Kings"), Dan Carlin talks about how the Athenian hoplites at Marathon (I think) were mostly amateur, and much of what we know about the battle is from anecdotes about things that happened like the guy who threw up in his helmet before the battle etc.
But the people mentioned in the plays didn't seem to mind, because it confirmed that they were in the line at Marathon.
But the people mentioned in the plays didn't seem to mind, because it confirmed that they were in the line at Marathon.
from what I remember, nearly all hoplites were amateurs, in the sense they weren't professional soldiers, but rather citizen levies called in time of conflicts (I think Sparta's the exception)
Even the Spartiates were essentially a citizen levy: afaik the difference vs say, the Athenians, is that the spartiates were a tiny permanent leisure class. In the Athenian phalanx you’d be in the line next to the potter, the sandal maker, the rhetor, etc., similar to the portion of the Spartan phalanx made up of the perioikoi. The Spartiates themselves though did no work at all, and despised those who did.
That doesn’t make them a standing army though, and they didn’t train or drill when they weren’t actively on campaign any more than other hoplites.
That doesn’t make them a standing army though, and they didn’t train or drill when they weren’t actively on campaign any more than other hoplites.
Wasn't the professional hoplite one of Philip of Macedon's innovations? That's long after Marathon.
Even before Philip, plenty of hoplites served as mercenaries. Xenophon’s Anabasis is a great example.
+1 for Dan Carlin's Hardcore History podcast
Even if it doesn't fit in a historic article about "warriors", I think modern information warfare deserves a mention.
The latest face of battle is taking control of, or attacking platforms and individuals online, creating content, supporting and steering movements, take part in discussions with automated bots or trained operators. Lots of data science, automation, machine learning, chat bots, some cryptography occasionally.
The latest face of battle is taking control of, or attacking platforms and individuals online, creating content, supporting and steering movements, take part in discussions with automated bots or trained operators. Lots of data science, automation, machine learning, chat bots, some cryptography occasionally.
I'm not convinced that "12th salty meme battalion" shitposting from their secure basement (moooom it's called a SCIF!) really have a similar experience to anyone described in the post.
On the other hand, there is definitely a universal information warfare experience, I think (so, I agree with you).
All the 90's hackers I know used to think it was about the bits and bytes and buffer overflows and making the computer do stuff - and got blindsided when it turned out the important "battleground" was and still is in the human mind.
At least until the power goes out. All that stuff will be worms and pre-established access and will happen really fast.
On the other hand, there is definitely a universal information warfare experience, I think (so, I agree with you).
All the 90's hackers I know used to think it was about the bits and bytes and buffer overflows and making the computer do stuff - and got blindsided when it turned out the important "battleground" was and still is in the human mind.
At least until the power goes out. All that stuff will be worms and pre-established access and will happen really fast.
> "12th salty meme battalion"
A.k.a. the British Army 77th Bde? [0]
Remote pilots flying Reaper / Predator vehicles from their home bases are another example that would be interesting to study. They fly missions that can involve lethal Hellfire attacks for a few hours a day and then 'go home' to their families.
[0] https://www.army.mod.uk/who-we-are/formations-divisions-brig...
A.k.a. the British Army 77th Bde? [0]
Remote pilots flying Reaper / Predator vehicles from their home bases are another example that would be interesting to study. They fly missions that can involve lethal Hellfire attacks for a few hours a day and then 'go home' to their families.
[0] https://www.army.mod.uk/who-we-are/formations-divisions-brig...
[deleted]
Is 'warrior archetype' just mild psychopathy?
Symptoms: Boldness, lack of empathy, inclination to violence and manipulation, impulsivity
While I haven't ventured through time, I have grown up in the lands of those of what the author calls the first system of war, but have been trained in and participated in modern war, I see the type of person as being very much similar from both my limited reading of history and first-hand accounts of both bravery and cowardice. A good article with a lackluster conclusion.
I will say that the author is relatively spot on about hypervigilance, and as I stated before, my conversations with native americans of various tribes have generally agreed with his conclusion of the similarities in modern war. For example, it took me over ten years after getting out of the military to not wake up and pace the permiter of my house multiple times a night. I still do it when I'm stressed.
I would also say there is a lot to be said for the effects of TBI compounded upon combat stress or trauma. The level of explosions just didn't exist the way they do today. I've seen guys walk away from a humvee completely intact but never the same again from it.
Almost even more terrifying than constantly expecting a rocket or IED or ambush is coming home to a people who don't even understand or know what kind of horrors we have been up to in their name, continuing life as if nothing has or is happening, and having to listen to people pontificate on the subject of war (including politics) when you know the dirty, dark side of it all, while trying to pretend you are a normal person. How do you think my silicon valley co-workers would look at me if they knew the truth of the things we did, and continue to do, in their name, despite what R or D prepends some puppet presidents name at the time? So keep mum, and carry on pretending, playing along that you are indeed normal.
One probable universal about the universal warrior; the real challenge isn't the battlefield, it's home afterwards.