Ask HN: Why do you still use Wordpress in 2021?
47 comments
Because headless CMSs aren't my core business. Because WordPress allows me to focus on what's relevant to me and my business.
Could I run my business website on a headless CMS and a build pipeline? Absolutely.
Why should I though? WordPress allows me to manage my content without having to deal with the technical details of doing so.
A headless CMS provides zero benefit to me while at the same time incurring additional infrastructure management and administration costs.
With WordPress there's a huge amount of plugins for every imaginable use case. For most headless CMSs that's probably not the case. So, I might run into a dead end later on should I realise that I need an additional feature the CMS I opted for doesn't support.
In terms of WordPress security issues, most of those are caused by dodgy plugins. Doing some research before installing a new plugin and selecting plugins carefully will get you a long way.
Additionally, there are services such as WordFence that alleviate many potential security issues.
Could I run my business website on a headless CMS and a build pipeline? Absolutely.
Why should I though? WordPress allows me to manage my content without having to deal with the technical details of doing so.
A headless CMS provides zero benefit to me while at the same time incurring additional infrastructure management and administration costs.
With WordPress there's a huge amount of plugins for every imaginable use case. For most headless CMSs that's probably not the case. So, I might run into a dead end later on should I realise that I need an additional feature the CMS I opted for doesn't support.
In terms of WordPress security issues, most of those are caused by dodgy plugins. Doing some research before installing a new plugin and selecting plugins carefully will get you a long way.
Additionally, there are services such as WordFence that alleviate many potential security issues.
I have friends, writers who use WordPress. Here are their reasons:
1. WordPress works. It's worked for years and likely will work for years.
2. They don't know about or care about Markdown.
3. "JAMStack and headless CMSs" mean nothing to them. (Or to me for that matter. I use a static generator I coded myself. It's plain HTML and some python)
4. It takes minutes to set up and they don't have to care about anything other than their content.
1. WordPress works. It's worked for years and likely will work for years.
2. They don't know about or care about Markdown.
3. "JAMStack and headless CMSs" mean nothing to them. (Or to me for that matter. I use a static generator I coded myself. It's plain HTML and some python)
4. It takes minutes to set up and they don't have to care about anything other than their content.
1. It works.
2. Vast library of plugins
3. Lets you focus on content rather than twiddling bits.
4. Open source, php/mysql, you can host it anywhere.
5. Vast number of devs who know how to make changes to it.
6. Most of the functionality you need for a basic website, including: scheduling content, WYSIWYG editor, ecommerce (via plugins), integration with analytics, custom data types.
7. Did I mention it just works?
2. Vast library of plugins
3. Lets you focus on content rather than twiddling bits.
4. Open source, php/mysql, you can host it anywhere.
5. Vast number of devs who know how to make changes to it.
6. Most of the functionality you need for a basic website, including: scheduling content, WYSIWYG editor, ecommerce (via plugins), integration with analytics, custom data types.
7. Did I mention it just works?
By the way, I am astounded, simply astounded, that there is no easy way to schedule content publishing with an SSG.
At least I haven't found one for Jekyll and 11ty, the two SSGs I have worked most with. It seems an architectural limitation of the SSG model.
All I want to do is to say "This blog post is ready to go on Jan 1, publish it without any action from me." Trivial in WP. People talk about cron, but really? I'm a dev, I can handle cron, but it seems a bit much to use to schedule a blog post.
At least I haven't found one for Jekyll and 11ty, the two SSGs I have worked most with. It seems an architectural limitation of the SSG model.
All I want to do is to say "This blog post is ready to go on Jan 1, publish it without any action from me." Trivial in WP. People talk about cron, but really? I'm a dev, I can handle cron, but it seems a bit much to use to schedule a blog post.
I don't think this is a hard problem to solve, it's just outside the scope of the site generator itself. The best way to handle it probably depends on how you deploy the site, but one option would be using the at command to either overwrite the existing site files or point a symlink to the updated version of the site: https://www.linuxjournal.com/content/schedule-one-time-comma...
Fair point. Maybe I just wish it weren't outside the scope, as it feels like core functionality.
But SSGs have a different set of design tradeoffs (the lack of a WYSIWYG editor being another piece of functionality that seems to me to be core to a CMS), so maybe I just need to accept that.
I don't think SSGs are all bad, either. I wrote a blog post a few months ago talking about the tradeoffs: https://www.mooreds.com/wordpress/archives/3369
But SSGs have a different set of design tradeoffs (the lack of a WYSIWYG editor being another piece of functionality that seems to me to be core to a CMS), so maybe I just need to accept that.
I don't think SSGs are all bad, either. I wrote a blog post a few months ago talking about the tradeoffs: https://www.mooreds.com/wordpress/archives/3369
It still uses PHP which I’m comfortable with. It has a brilliant editor. It has brilliant plugins. In its default state it is very customisable. I have a few very low traffic sites - one hit the front of Hackaday [1] - but using a static site plugin I didn’t have any issues at all.
I’m still dubious about installing plugins willy-nilly, and I usually keep to the default themes for a bit of added security, and I’ve had some issues in the past with unauthorised access but my site is pretty resilient to attacks now thanks to some custom coding.
[1] - https://hackaday.com/2020/09/23/displaying-incoming-server-a...
I’m still dubious about installing plugins willy-nilly, and I usually keep to the default themes for a bit of added security, and I’ve had some issues in the past with unauthorised access but my site is pretty resilient to attacks now thanks to some custom coding.
[1] - https://hackaday.com/2020/09/23/displaying-incoming-server-a...
The current theme Twenty Twenty One comes even without web fonts! That's so great.
Unfortunately it looks very "loose" and much worse than Twenty Sixteen, but it's still a breath of fresh air.
Unfortunately it looks very "loose" and much worse than Twenty Sixteen, but it's still a breath of fresh air.
JAMStack and headless CMS are neither simple to deploy or easy to setup. Quite the opposite. Compare that to WordPress which makes it relatively easy for even non-technical users to getting started.
What developers consider "simple" often bears no relation to reality.
What developers consider "simple" often bears no relation to reality.
I second this. While many developers banter with each other about how marketing people are more or less useless, very few seem to understand that in the vast majority of cases creating a technical solution/product is easier than finding enough clients for it to generate steady income.
Furthermore, it's often the case in my experience that developers miss out the whole point of these products: someone wants to make money and the CMS is merely an instrument that they don't care too much about as long as it helps them achieve their business goals.
Furthermore, it's often the case in my experience that developers miss out the whole point of these products: someone wants to make money and the CMS is merely an instrument that they don't care too much about as long as it helps them achieve their business goals.
It works.
I can use static site generators (and have used several in the past: Jekyll, Middleman, nanoc), but now I can simply open the web site and start writing. I don't need to be at home in front of my personal computer. I don't need to fiddle with themes and templates.
WRT to JAMstack and headless CMS: I cannot use those. I don't understand them. I certainly won't learn JavaScript and install huge development platforms and tool chains, just to write a few words (and sometimes even a photo).
Security is mostly a non-issue: Keep the number of plugins small, use WP Super Cache, and most of your pages are static anyway (and nginx will serve them without even running any PHP if you so wish).
I can use static site generators (and have used several in the past: Jekyll, Middleman, nanoc), but now I can simply open the web site and start writing. I don't need to be at home in front of my personal computer. I don't need to fiddle with themes and templates.
WRT to JAMstack and headless CMS: I cannot use those. I don't understand them. I certainly won't learn JavaScript and install huge development platforms and tool chains, just to write a few words (and sometimes even a photo).
Security is mostly a non-issue: Keep the number of plugins small, use WP Super Cache, and most of your pages are static anyway (and nginx will serve them without even running any PHP if you so wish).
There's also a TON of people who can customize a template or write you a dedicated plugin for next to nothing. I'm talking about a 16-year-old dude from Romania or Algeria who can do this just fine for a couple of bucks, instead of hiring a SF-based ninja rockstar evangelist who can get you hooked up with JAMstack and a headless CMS for only 10K...
Very easy to set-up and customize due to the huge ecosystem.
You can find a pre-made website for any niche you can think of, you pay like $59 for a theme and you have a high-quality niche-specific website.
For example, I had to make a website for a physiotherapist, I just got this theme https://demos.qreativethemes.com/physio/ and changed the text/images.
The best part is that you know you are not stuck with a specific theme/solution/provider, at any point you can change any part and it will probably work without many issues.
You can find a pre-made website for any niche you can think of, you pay like $59 for a theme and you have a high-quality niche-specific website.
For example, I had to make a website for a physiotherapist, I just got this theme https://demos.qreativethemes.com/physio/ and changed the text/images.
The best part is that you know you are not stuck with a specific theme/solution/provider, at any point you can change any part and it will probably work without many issues.
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I'm pushing for more WordPress at work for all the similar "it just works" reasons, but also because there is plentiful, free, quality training material and documentation.
I keep reading here comments how Wordpress "just works", and I wonder if did something wrong over the years because every single WP (.org) instance I worked on inevitable became slow, and also error ridden after some core plugin inevitably stops being maintained.
Yes those can be a challenge with WP but "it works" because users of WP have no clue what JamStack or HeadLess CMS is and they just want to create a Page/Post with an editor that doesn't require running an "npm run" or stuff like that. The "just works" part is the ease and convenience that a user has with WordPress which frankly even after all these years, no CMS comes close to it.
I say this everytime a "but but WP is shit" post comes up, there is no better CMS for users that WP even in 2021 which is easy to setup, has a huge ecosystem and community, simple hosting options and many plugins that can enable a new functionality in no time. The tradeoffs it brings is much lower than the benefits.
I say this everytime a "but but WP is shit" post comes up, there is no better CMS for users that WP even in 2021 which is easy to setup, has a huge ecosystem and community, simple hosting options and many plugins that can enable a new functionality in no time. The tradeoffs it brings is much lower than the benefits.
I guess "it works" frqeuently means "if it doesn't work (any more), I can simply google the error", which again translates to "there is a huge community".
Because people have businesses to run instead of fucking around with latest bullshit trend in web dev. I doubt that JamStack will be a thing in 10 years whereas I can easily see WordPress existing in another 20 years.
I use it as the back-end for most of my web apps. One or two free plugins and I never have to think about managing users again. I.e. I never have to write a "reset password" flow again. I can just get onto writing the core functionality of the app.
Random Questions -
Are you hosting this in 2 places? One for the backend/one for the frontend? Or are you running the apps on top of WordPress? via enqueue script or something? Custom plugin?
Thanks!
One server. I use Beaver Builder for the homepage and laying out any PHP dynamic pages (log in, log out, contact us, etc), and then either enqueue scripts or a custom rewrite rule to serve any javascript apps e.g. React.
Because most people prefer to spend more time on the content than on the software to manage it.
You have non technical people managing the content? There are tons of tutorials you can refer to when they need to do something.
You have non technical people managing the content? There are tons of tutorials you can refer to when they need to do something.
because the people who use and love WP have no idea what you're talking about when you say "JAMStack and headless CMS" and really don't care. It just does what it says on the tin.
But yes, there are other great and simple products coming up that will overtake - but they remove the techie nonsense even more. Carrd, Webflow, and about a million others.
But yes, there are other great and simple products coming up that will overtake - but they remove the techie nonsense even more. Carrd, Webflow, and about a million others.
Have you ever tried Drupal?
For years I fought against WordPress, thinking I could use a framework to make a better product. (Codeiginter, laravel, drupal)
Anybody trying to push headless CMSs or what ever is probably a developer.
To start a blog and change the world... 1. A resentment 2. Internet connection 3. 5 minutes to build your word press site. (or you could just rant on twitter/facebook)
For years I fought against WordPress, thinking I could use a framework to make a better product. (Codeiginter, laravel, drupal)
Anybody trying to push headless CMSs or what ever is probably a developer.
To start a blog and change the world... 1. A resentment 2. Internet connection 3. 5 minutes to build your word press site. (or you could just rant on twitter/facebook)
Step into the shoes of a web marketing professional. They have built their entire career on Wordpress. It has themes they know, they have the skills to manage the SEO, how things look, etc. it’s got oodles of plug-ins tailored to the audience. There’s just so much mindshare and tooling available that no other ecosystem can rival. It’s easy to hire someone to build a plug-in or write for Wordpress.
Sure there’s security issues, but how do we know the CMSs you describe don’t also have issues? Wordpress is just pummeled much more so we’ll find more security issues. Plus now there’s a cottage industry of Wordpress security expertise that can mitigate these issues.
Something taking the place of Wordpress is akin to something taking Pythons place in data science. It’s possible, not insurmountable, but the tooling and mindshare have so much momentum it’s probably on a decade or so timescale for mass adoption outside of some niches.
Sure there’s security issues, but how do we know the CMSs you describe don’t also have issues? Wordpress is just pummeled much more so we’ll find more security issues. Plus now there’s a cottage industry of Wordpress security expertise that can mitigate these issues.
Something taking the place of Wordpress is akin to something taking Pythons place in data science. It’s possible, not insurmountable, but the tooling and mindshare have so much momentum it’s probably on a decade or so timescale for mass adoption outside of some niches.
Because I am used to it, been working with WP for over ten years and there's little I don't know about it. It just works for me, and switching to something else at this point requires more additional effort than I am willing to put in solely to manage content.
For me it boils down to a number of reasons:
1) It’s simple to use and allows me to focus on content.
2) It’s widely supported with a rich community.
3) It just works.
The whole security issues piece is a misnomer IMO. Wordpress has had security vulnerabilities, but the reputation of “Wordpress is easy to hack” is down to poor quality admins, rather than poor quality WP code a lot of the time.
I wrote about this topic a while back - https://kevq.uk/the-case-for-wordpress/
The whole security issues piece is a misnomer IMO. Wordpress has had security vulnerabilities, but the reputation of “Wordpress is easy to hack” is down to poor quality admins, rather than poor quality WP code a lot of the time.
I wrote about this topic a while back - https://kevq.uk/the-case-for-wordpress/
Much easier for the rest of the team (writers, editors, advertisers, sponsors, etc.) to collaborate on content. Especially with all the different plugins available for different user roles.
My SEO ranks are always the best when I use WordPress, and I'm in eCommerce so it's important to me. Haven't been able to get the same results with Shopify, but I am actually currently moving a $1m/year site from WooCommerce to Shopify, and 50%+ of traffic comes from organic search, so hoping there isn't too much long-term damage from google with the transition. The founder really wants to move to Shopify being the reason.
It REALLY helps with self control. Whenever a customer wants a new WP theme, I must resist the urge to beat them viciously.
> With the rise of the JAMStack and headless CMSs, why would one use Wordpress anymore
Because I've never heard of "JAMStack and headless CMSs"? (Nothing anyone wrote on this page so far has made me feel like finding out what they are either. Self-hosted WP has worked great.)
Because I've never heard of "JAMStack and headless CMSs"? (Nothing anyone wrote on this page so far has made me feel like finding out what they are either. Self-hosted WP has worked great.)
I guess it depends whom you're asking, because developing WP is one thing, writing & managing content is another and generally speaking different skillsets are involved at each level.
For development: different reasons, depending on your use case. You have to always keep in mind who is using the solution in the end. If it's a client, it often means that the executive or marketing team will use it. "Headless CMS" or "regular CMS" means nothing to them and it shouldn't either.
(1) I've worked with a variety of open source CMSs (mostly PHP based), some are overly complicated to learn for someone without serious coding knowledge, some have been abandoned, leaving clients and users in the air, and some have changed their business model, forcing adjustments on my side. Wordpress was easy to learn (I've never had formal training, so it was all self-taught), it had very good documentation for a newbie, a huge community, it remained free and open source and it kept maturing. Installing and configuring WP is notoriously easy and the server requirements are almost never an issue. WP has been reliable all these years and I can't say I trust many of the emerging platforms to match it: the last thing I want is to go full in with a new tool which will be dropped in a few years because the creators couldn't monetise it or find the time to maintain it.
An easy choice for me and others like me.
(2) I've had to build websites for clients both alone as part of a team. Apart from the extremely rare case where a headless CMS was explicitly needed or requested by a client, regular WP was perfectly fine to do what they needed a CMS to do. Furthermore, many explicitly requested WP or a similarily popular open source CMS, in case they needed to work with a different Dev. A sensible business decision, in my view.
(3) Huge pool of developers, very large community, generous amount of tutorials on various aspects of customisation, incredible number of extensions and themes.
For content writing & management: different reasons again, depending on your use case.
(1) For my own projects, I see little reason to mess about with shiny new CMSs which force me to learn new unnecessary things or change the way I already do things after I've used a platform that simply works for about 11 years. This thing does the job well, it's as simple as that.
(2) It's genuinely easy to use for most people. Now I know this is a subjective appreciation to a good degree, but while I'm not saying that it can't be improved, I want to stress the fact that most clients who've use it for a while learn its logic rather fast and become independent users (in terms of publishing content) in a short amount of time, compared to other CMSs.
(3) 90% of our clients are not technical people, and even some of those that are technical don't know much about CMSs or don't care beyond some specific needs. Speaking to them about JAMStack and headless CMSs is like a car salesman who goes so deep into engineering and materials composition that scares the clients away. Instead, we ask what is it they're trying to achieve with their websites and what they think it's best way to do it; Wordpress almost invariably passes the test when we present it to them.
People who write & manage content are generally marketing people and execs. They care more about design and SEO than the technology itself, which makes sense.
For development: different reasons, depending on your use case. You have to always keep in mind who is using the solution in the end. If it's a client, it often means that the executive or marketing team will use it. "Headless CMS" or "regular CMS" means nothing to them and it shouldn't either.
(1) I've worked with a variety of open source CMSs (mostly PHP based), some are overly complicated to learn for someone without serious coding knowledge, some have been abandoned, leaving clients and users in the air, and some have changed their business model, forcing adjustments on my side. Wordpress was easy to learn (I've never had formal training, so it was all self-taught), it had very good documentation for a newbie, a huge community, it remained free and open source and it kept maturing. Installing and configuring WP is notoriously easy and the server requirements are almost never an issue. WP has been reliable all these years and I can't say I trust many of the emerging platforms to match it: the last thing I want is to go full in with a new tool which will be dropped in a few years because the creators couldn't monetise it or find the time to maintain it.
An easy choice for me and others like me.
(2) I've had to build websites for clients both alone as part of a team. Apart from the extremely rare case where a headless CMS was explicitly needed or requested by a client, regular WP was perfectly fine to do what they needed a CMS to do. Furthermore, many explicitly requested WP or a similarily popular open source CMS, in case they needed to work with a different Dev. A sensible business decision, in my view.
(3) Huge pool of developers, very large community, generous amount of tutorials on various aspects of customisation, incredible number of extensions and themes.
For content writing & management: different reasons again, depending on your use case.
(1) For my own projects, I see little reason to mess about with shiny new CMSs which force me to learn new unnecessary things or change the way I already do things after I've used a platform that simply works for about 11 years. This thing does the job well, it's as simple as that.
(2) It's genuinely easy to use for most people. Now I know this is a subjective appreciation to a good degree, but while I'm not saying that it can't be improved, I want to stress the fact that most clients who've use it for a while learn its logic rather fast and become independent users (in terms of publishing content) in a short amount of time, compared to other CMSs.
(3) 90% of our clients are not technical people, and even some of those that are technical don't know much about CMSs or don't care beyond some specific needs. Speaking to them about JAMStack and headless CMSs is like a car salesman who goes so deep into engineering and materials composition that scares the clients away. Instead, we ask what is it they're trying to achieve with their websites and what they think it's best way to do it; Wordpress almost invariably passes the test when we present it to them.
People who write & manage content are generally marketing people and execs. They care more about design and SEO than the technology itself, which makes sense.
In addition to it just working, it also is great for writing from anywhere. I have a technical + personal blog. This let me log into blog from anywhere and write a quick draft or even publish a post. It is pain to type a post on cellphone but doable.
I played around with Ghost for a while, and it wasn’t hard to set up, but the maturity of the product for copy layout was far behind Wordpress. Maybe different now, but Wordpress just works for people. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
No one wants to get in trouble for picking something that everyone hasn't heard of. For many, WordPress is synonymous with CMS.
I have no idea why anyone would use wordpress. I've used it once in 2019, and still have nightmares.
1. Popularity (40% of the internet use it)
2. It's not Drupal (Drupal 7 to 8 PTSD)
3. I love Open Source
4. It's familiar (10+ yrs WP development)
5. The Block Editor
2. It's not Drupal (Drupal 7 to 8 PTSD)
3. I love Open Source
4. It's familiar (10+ yrs WP development)
5. The Block Editor
Wordpress eco system is strong plus easy to use and customize. I use it for my blog and ecomm website.
Are people talking about self-hosted WP here? I wonder if "It works" includes security.
Well I run a self-hosted WordPress. it's very robust, fast with static pages, excellent SEO, and very good security through plugins.
These days there's a lot more than just trotting out static pages although mine does that through caching. Publishing pages on a schedule, having both posts and pages. Popularity measuring, and archives. I doubt theres any alternatives that has the range of plugins, themes and widgets that self-hosted Wordpress offers.
These days there's a lot more than just trotting out static pages although mine does that through caching. Publishing pages on a schedule, having both posts and pages. Popularity measuring, and archives. I doubt theres any alternatives that has the range of plugins, themes and widgets that self-hosted Wordpress offers.
> very good security through plugins
How do you evaluate this?
How do you evaluate this?
It doesn't work out of the box without extra effort. It needs some tinkering, that's for sure
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Because it works.
I works.
Why should I change?
Hackers. Managed WordPress is great, unmanaged means you're the manager, devops, security expert, etc
Not to mention Wordpress's history with security issues of the past.