How Doctors Die (2013)(saturdayeveningpost.com)
saturdayeveningpost.com
How Doctors Die (2013)
https://www.saturdayeveningpost.com/2013/03/how-doctors-die/
339 comments
I'm really sorry for your loss, I can't imagine losing my partner. Thanks for sharing your experience, like the article, it's quite eye opening.
Thank you, and you're welcome. Some good can be had from the experience. Empathy, hope, and the drive to always look for joy even in the worst of our days. It's what my wife was known for doing and it's something I have to give myself permission to do every day.
I logged into HN so I can reply to your post. Thank you so so much for sharing. I can relate to your story in so many ways.
Thank you my friend. And I'm very sorry that you can relate. It's a tough thing, to say the least.
I'm so sorry for your loss. I'm not sure if that means anything; coming from a random stranger on the HN. But thank you for sharing what must have been an unimaginably difficult time for you.
I am sorry to hear that. Loosing a loved before a really old age is just too early.
Thanks for sharing!
And yes, dying in peace at home like that is the best way to go if you ask me.
Thanks for sharing!
And yes, dying in peace at home like that is the best way to go if you ask me.
So sorry about your loss and thank you for sharing.
Hope this isn’t too personal a question, but you mentioned her stomach stopped working. I was under the impression that with modern medical care people can actually live without a functioning stomach. Is this incorrect or was there something else?
Hope this isn’t too personal a question, but you mentioned her stomach stopped working. I was under the impression that with modern medical care people can actually live without a functioning stomach. Is this incorrect or was there something else?
I don't mind answering. I gave the simplified version. Her body would not accept nutrition via the stomach, the upper intestine (jejunum, a J-tube) or intravenously (TPN). While the doctors were unable to diagnose anything more than gastroparesis (think "gastric paralysis") we (the family) suspect that there was a deeper systemic problem that the medical system would never have caught. Perhaps she had a disease that is extremely rare or as yet unidentified. Everything about it was atypical.
Thank you. An unfortunate reminder how much we still don’t know about the human body.
I didn't realize it was even possible for the body to not accept nutrition via TPN.
Right. It was so weird to see her get sick every time she started a bag of TPN. They tried different formulas, even exotic ones from overseas that were new to the market (and very costly).
My theory is that her body rejected nutrition in general and that the gastroparesis was just a symptom rather than a cause.
My theory is that her body rejected nutrition in general and that the gastroparesis was just a symptom rather than a cause.
I've got a truly crazy level of food sensitivities and my mother was just about as badly off--and that makes me think of a slightly different theory that has worried me and I suspect applies to your wife:
Rather than rejecting nutrition in general the scenario that concerns me is reacting badly to something essential. All it would take is one component, not all nutrition.
To date I have reliable sources of carbohydrates and amino acids, but fatty acids are another matter. I have never found a source of highly purified fatty acids and as far as I can tell not even the TPN formulas are made that way.
I don't have gastroparesis issues but while AFIAK it was never labeled that my mother would react that way to eating something wrong. I can easily picture her getting sick from TPN containing something she was sensitive to.
It's not something that would have been of much priority for the doctors to test--if you can't tolerate all of the ingredients there's no value to knowing you can tolerate some. As far as I can tell your survival time eating no fat is a lot less than your survival time not eating, period. (If you're not eating your body draws on fat stores, thus providing fat. If you're eating but no fat the body doesn't draw on fat stores and bad things happen.)
Rather than rejecting nutrition in general the scenario that concerns me is reacting badly to something essential. All it would take is one component, not all nutrition.
To date I have reliable sources of carbohydrates and amino acids, but fatty acids are another matter. I have never found a source of highly purified fatty acids and as far as I can tell not even the TPN formulas are made that way.
I don't have gastroparesis issues but while AFIAK it was never labeled that my mother would react that way to eating something wrong. I can easily picture her getting sick from TPN containing something she was sensitive to.
It's not something that would have been of much priority for the doctors to test--if you can't tolerate all of the ingredients there's no value to knowing you can tolerate some. As far as I can tell your survival time eating no fat is a lot less than your survival time not eating, period. (If you're not eating your body draws on fat stores, thus providing fat. If you're eating but no fat the body doesn't draw on fat stores and bad things happen.)
Im so sorry to hear about your loss. Standing by and watching a loved one go through this is truly awful. I had a tear in my eye reading your story, it is very familiar to me. My mum went through something very similar over ~4 years.
She had a minor relatively non-aggressive but unusual cancer. It was removed and she had optional radiotherapy to be sure it didn't return. She bounced back great - but then the odd stomach issues started.
No doctor could find or diagnose the cause. She was slowly fading away and getting weaker and weaker. She spent more time in hospital than out. She was always at the mercy of the next life-threatening PICC infection. The only explanation we ever had for the gastroparesis was that the radiotherapy damaged the nervous system around her stomach. It was years of misery and suffering, all the while propped up by TPN through starvation. Eventually she found her release, but like you, it changed my perspective on life and dying.
She had a minor relatively non-aggressive but unusual cancer. It was removed and she had optional radiotherapy to be sure it didn't return. She bounced back great - but then the odd stomach issues started.
No doctor could find or diagnose the cause. She was slowly fading away and getting weaker and weaker. She spent more time in hospital than out. She was always at the mercy of the next life-threatening PICC infection. The only explanation we ever had for the gastroparesis was that the radiotherapy damaged the nervous system around her stomach. It was years of misery and suffering, all the while propped up by TPN through starvation. Eventually she found her release, but like you, it changed my perspective on life and dying.
I am so sorry your family went through this for so long. Watching somebody you love slowly starve to death is unimaginably awful. But I have gone through it. To say "hang in there" isn't enough. Thank you for posting your experience.
Thanks for sharing your personal story, and sorry for your loss. It's hard to imagine what it is to lose someone you love so early in life.
I am, however, glad that the end was the way you wanted it. From your comments, it's clear that it could have been much worse.
One nitpick: I am not sure what "the green paper on the wall said so" really means. Not a native English speaker.
I am, however, glad that the end was the way you wanted it. From your comments, it's clear that it could have been much worse.
One nitpick: I am not sure what "the green paper on the wall said so" really means. Not a native English speaker.
The green paper on the wall was a Do Not Resuscitate order that was legally binding.
Thanks for clarifying.
[deleted]
Man, so sorry to hear what you went through, but your comment carries a lot of weight and meaning. Thanks for recounting this for us, even though it must have been painful. Your wife sounds like a true champion.
My Mom just passed two weeks ago from terminal cancer.
The Monday ~2 weeks before she passed she was at the hospital, I asked her if this was all really what she wanted. She really wanted to change over to hospice and focus on palliative care.
We began advocating for her to switch. She didn't have a ton of energy at the hospital to express/follow up on her wishes without someone there. The hospital seems like they would have erred on continuing treatment until all hope was exhausted. But once we began advocating for this want of her, the gears really shifted. She got all the morphine she wanted, and various other comfort measures. The palliative care team was driving the show. She was eventually able to go home for home hospice, and she had a final weekend of energy before passing Sunday before last.
All to say, having an advocate that help you with your wishes when you're in a weakened state feels like it is pretty huge. I can't imagine what would have happened if me and my siblings weren't able to help her. She _might_ have been able to get what she wanted ultimately, but all the follow up, checking in, caretaking etc you really want to have someone there advocating for you.
The Monday ~2 weeks before she passed she was at the hospital, I asked her if this was all really what she wanted. She really wanted to change over to hospice and focus on palliative care.
We began advocating for her to switch. She didn't have a ton of energy at the hospital to express/follow up on her wishes without someone there. The hospital seems like they would have erred on continuing treatment until all hope was exhausted. But once we began advocating for this want of her, the gears really shifted. She got all the morphine she wanted, and various other comfort measures. The palliative care team was driving the show. She was eventually able to go home for home hospice, and she had a final weekend of energy before passing Sunday before last.
All to say, having an advocate that help you with your wishes when you're in a weakened state feels like it is pretty huge. I can't imagine what would have happened if me and my siblings weren't able to help her. She _might_ have been able to get what she wanted ultimately, but all the follow up, checking in, caretaking etc you really want to have someone there advocating for you.
>All to say, having an advocate that help you with your wishes when you're in a weakened state feels like it is pretty huge.
I think it is effectively, required for most hospital stays. Even a fully capable individual with all that is going on in a hospital would IMO find it really hard to hear every important word, understand every context, and would struggle to make truly informed decisions.
When my son was 6 he was in the hospital for an illness that we still don't entirely understand (thankfully he recovered completely and is doing well). My wife or I were there the entire time. We got updates from the local university, other doctors from other hospitals.
Just updating my wife with all the details was absolutely mind mindbogglingly hard to really convey all the information accurately. When we were there together it was even harder for her to keep up.. in person.
I felt like I had an advantage as in my line of work I do a lot of troubleshooting, so change this, observe that, check this after that, accounting for tradeoffs of making some decisions, and the methodology totally made sense to me. My wife not as much.
I feel like there's a need for a medically trained advocates to really help people with these kinds of things.
I think it is effectively, required for most hospital stays. Even a fully capable individual with all that is going on in a hospital would IMO find it really hard to hear every important word, understand every context, and would struggle to make truly informed decisions.
When my son was 6 he was in the hospital for an illness that we still don't entirely understand (thankfully he recovered completely and is doing well). My wife or I were there the entire time. We got updates from the local university, other doctors from other hospitals.
Just updating my wife with all the details was absolutely mind mindbogglingly hard to really convey all the information accurately. When we were there together it was even harder for her to keep up.. in person.
I felt like I had an advantage as in my line of work I do a lot of troubleshooting, so change this, observe that, check this after that, accounting for tradeoffs of making some decisions, and the methodology totally made sense to me. My wife not as much.
I feel like there's a need for a medically trained advocates to really help people with these kinds of things.
The necessity of understanding and aggressively arguing for your medical care is a real shame here in the US and IMO most of the reason why we see worse outcomes for certain minority groups with heart attacks etc not getting sent to specialists at the same rate. My experience is some doctors and staff actively welcome you participating but some don’t and you never know which one it is.
Living outside of the US, advocating for your own care is actually good. When I lived in Asia you generally don’t question what your doctor says, you just do it.
Thats certainly true in my experience in Japan, though there they are usually hyper conscious of doing procedures correctly so I don’t know if it would be better or worse.
Yup, I would echo this strongly. My wife ended up in hospital just before Christmas a couple of years ago, and she’s an extremely quick professional but between the emotional impact and the sheer volume of information she just couldn’t keep up. I did a bit better and kept up with the various prescriptions, test results, dosages, etc. Behind me there was a whole family team processing this — mom a nurse for 20+ years, her best friend an ER nurse for similar, a cousin that was a specialist in a related field, etc. All from 3000km away.
In the end, we lucked out that in the ER the first night we had a wonderful specialist who really took on the primary role in her care going forward, and the “shadow” family team stood down. And this was for a relatively simple issue that within 24 hours was determined not to be life threatening! I have so much more empathy for families in really challenging situations like yours now, just the sheer volume of information..
In the end, we lucked out that in the ER the first night we had a wonderful specialist who really took on the primary role in her care going forward, and the “shadow” family team stood down. And this was for a relatively simple issue that within 24 hours was determined not to be life threatening! I have so much more empathy for families in really challenging situations like yours now, just the sheer volume of information..
Reading your post felt like I was reading my own experience. My mom just passed away a month ago from stage 4 stomach cancer after a brief, hard fight.
> Having an advocate
There aren’t enough upvotes in the world to highlight this! The average person never understands until they go through it. My dad, my brothers, and I were her advocates. At one point, laying the facts out to the doctors who were delaying some of her tests due to “insurance requirements” (false) and pleading with them that it felt like my mom was being forced to advocate for her own life at a time when she should be taken care of by the “experts”!
We took shifts, around the clock, getting visitation exceptions to at least have 1 person sitting in the room with her at all times. Because the doctors had the amazing ability to burst into a room and present options to a half-cognizant woman suffering from cancer and expect her to make a decision there-and-then.
> I can’t imagine what would have happened if me and my siblings weren’t able to help her.
The exact thought I had as I walked out of the cancer ward past all the other rooms filled with people, laying there, alone. No one to advocate for them.
There’s just a dizzying amount of information, decisions, staying on top of doctors, following up, describing symptoms such that nurses / doctors actually check to rule out new causes (e.g. describing stomach pain and lack of bowel movements over multiple days before they finally checked her stomach and found a blockage due to a new tumor in her intestine)... it’s hard to imagine how anyone could get along alone in a hospital with a complex case.
Overall, the hospital experience left a bad taste in my mouth.
I was happy that my mom knew she was loved by all of us though, and I got be bedside and talk with her for her last couple weeks. I never thought I’d lose my mom this early, but I’m glad there wasn’t anything left unresolved between us. She knew I was proud of her; she knew she was the best mom a son could ever ask for in my eyes. I loved her.
> Having an advocate
There aren’t enough upvotes in the world to highlight this! The average person never understands until they go through it. My dad, my brothers, and I were her advocates. At one point, laying the facts out to the doctors who were delaying some of her tests due to “insurance requirements” (false) and pleading with them that it felt like my mom was being forced to advocate for her own life at a time when she should be taken care of by the “experts”!
We took shifts, around the clock, getting visitation exceptions to at least have 1 person sitting in the room with her at all times. Because the doctors had the amazing ability to burst into a room and present options to a half-cognizant woman suffering from cancer and expect her to make a decision there-and-then.
> I can’t imagine what would have happened if me and my siblings weren’t able to help her.
The exact thought I had as I walked out of the cancer ward past all the other rooms filled with people, laying there, alone. No one to advocate for them.
There’s just a dizzying amount of information, decisions, staying on top of doctors, following up, describing symptoms such that nurses / doctors actually check to rule out new causes (e.g. describing stomach pain and lack of bowel movements over multiple days before they finally checked her stomach and found a blockage due to a new tumor in her intestine)... it’s hard to imagine how anyone could get along alone in a hospital with a complex case.
Overall, the hospital experience left a bad taste in my mouth.
I was happy that my mom knew she was loved by all of us though, and I got be bedside and talk with her for her last couple weeks. I never thought I’d lose my mom this early, but I’m glad there wasn’t anything left unresolved between us. She knew I was proud of her; she knew she was the best mom a son could ever ask for in my eyes. I loved her.
I first encounter this subject through Being Mortal https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/20696006-being-mortal
It was the most important perspective I gained
It was the most important perspective I gained
>> Having an advocate
>There aren’t enough upvotes in the world to highlight this!
My experience exactly, and repeatedly. I am old enough now to have spent many hours in the hospital next to family members. I don't say this to increase anyone's anxiety about hospital stays, but the care is better when close allies are there throughout stay.
My experience exactly, and repeatedly. I am old enough now to have spent many hours in the hospital next to family members. I don't say this to increase anyone's anxiety about hospital stays, but the care is better when close allies are there throughout stay.
Your post rang true. I just lost my mom last week and the hospital experience was a very similar situation.
The doctor was particularly upset because I was a healthcare proxy (that was the first thing he asked when bursting into the room) and complained that he just talked to my brother who was also a healthcare proxy.
It took a good several minutes until I explained that I was only there to visit my mom. You know, that human thing? Why I dressed nice and brought flowers? He complained some more and then pivoted down the hall, trailing two silent, masked students in his wake.
The doctor was particularly upset because I was a healthcare proxy (that was the first thing he asked when bursting into the room) and complained that he just talked to my brother who was also a healthcare proxy.
It took a good several minutes until I explained that I was only there to visit my mom. You know, that human thing? Why I dressed nice and brought flowers? He complained some more and then pivoted down the hall, trailing two silent, masked students in his wake.
“We took shifts, around the clock, getting visitation exceptions to at least have 1 person sitting in the room with her at all times. Because the doctors had the amazing ability to burst into a room and present options to a half-cognizant woman suffering from cancer and expect her to make a decision there-and-then.”
I Also lived through this doing night shifts every night for months switching with family members who all are in the medical or medically adjacent fields, having the fire hose of information shot in our direction for medical decisions that had to be made 24/7 For my intubated father in a medically induced coma for cerebral hemmoragic stroke.
The amount of Medical staff that visited at all hours of the day and night to take blood samples, do breathing treatments for intubation, soiled gown changing at their convenience (they would simply let your loved one sit in their soiled gown at odd hours of the day which leads to UTI and life threatening Septic shock had I not been their to sound the alarm).
All this plus medical errors at nursing shift change are very real concerns and happened shockingly often to us with wrong doses, late doses, miscommunications, etc. it is truly dizzinging and terrifying to say the least and my heart goes out to COVID patients who had family blocked from being bedside to advocate for their care prior to vaccine development.
Life is truly short, having stared the death of loved ones in the face you know your time will come to be in that same hospital bed. Make your time on this planet count. Forget the adtech and user manipulation/deception/surveillance gigs and use your software dev superpowers for doing good things to look back on from your hospital bed. That’s how my perspective has changed to live my life moving forward helping others with my tech skill set is truly humbling.
I Also lived through this doing night shifts every night for months switching with family members who all are in the medical or medically adjacent fields, having the fire hose of information shot in our direction for medical decisions that had to be made 24/7 For my intubated father in a medically induced coma for cerebral hemmoragic stroke.
The amount of Medical staff that visited at all hours of the day and night to take blood samples, do breathing treatments for intubation, soiled gown changing at their convenience (they would simply let your loved one sit in their soiled gown at odd hours of the day which leads to UTI and life threatening Septic shock had I not been their to sound the alarm).
All this plus medical errors at nursing shift change are very real concerns and happened shockingly often to us with wrong doses, late doses, miscommunications, etc. it is truly dizzinging and terrifying to say the least and my heart goes out to COVID patients who had family blocked from being bedside to advocate for their care prior to vaccine development.
Life is truly short, having stared the death of loved ones in the face you know your time will come to be in that same hospital bed. Make your time on this planet count. Forget the adtech and user manipulation/deception/surveillance gigs and use your software dev superpowers for doing good things to look back on from your hospital bed. That’s how my perspective has changed to live my life moving forward helping others with my tech skill set is truly humbling.
My aunt passed from cancer a few years ago but it seems like it was just yesterday. She did chemo for a long time and other treatments and was absolutely miserable. When she finally decided to "stop fighting" many in the family were horrified or even angry, but I get it. I would much rather go out comfortable and early than live a little longer in misery. Quality over quantity.
My father died of liver cancer, and even with hospice it was a horrid, painful, death.
It was 16 plus years ago, and I can’t get his suffering out of my mind.
I didn’t even like (I loved him though) my father, but know one should go through what he did. My sister was lowering his dose of medication because she wanted him to spend time with her kids. In all honestly, I believe she wanted him awake, and miserable, so she could get his estate together. Meaning—she wanted more?
The whole process was just awful. His death completely destroyed a very fragile family.
When he first went into the hospital he was basically given the bad news. He had a huge liver tumor. His stomach was greatly distended. That didn’t stop doctors coming in and palpating the mass. I think they were using my father’s condition to learn what a liver tumor felt like? Multiple people were palpating the mass, even after the scans? I finally said it’s hurting him?
He got his death sentence. We left the hospital. A few weeks later a Dr. told him he would operate on him. We went to the appointment. The doctor gave this sanctimonious speech about drinking. My father was obviously very sick. My father said his drinking days were over. I felt the lecture from this doctor was completely unnecessary. My dad left the appointment happy with hope. A week and a half later he got a call from the doctor stating he couldn’t do the surgery. My dad had a Cadillac medical plan, but the doctor said he couldn’t do the surgery.
All I can add is California passed a Death with Dignity bill. When it’s my time I will use it.
It was 16 plus years ago, and I can’t get his suffering out of my mind.
I didn’t even like (I loved him though) my father, but know one should go through what he did. My sister was lowering his dose of medication because she wanted him to spend time with her kids. In all honestly, I believe she wanted him awake, and miserable, so she could get his estate together. Meaning—she wanted more?
The whole process was just awful. His death completely destroyed a very fragile family.
When he first went into the hospital he was basically given the bad news. He had a huge liver tumor. His stomach was greatly distended. That didn’t stop doctors coming in and palpating the mass. I think they were using my father’s condition to learn what a liver tumor felt like? Multiple people were palpating the mass, even after the scans? I finally said it’s hurting him?
He got his death sentence. We left the hospital. A few weeks later a Dr. told him he would operate on him. We went to the appointment. The doctor gave this sanctimonious speech about drinking. My father was obviously very sick. My father said his drinking days were over. I felt the lecture from this doctor was completely unnecessary. My dad left the appointment happy with hope. A week and a half later he got a call from the doctor stating he couldn’t do the surgery. My dad had a Cadillac medical plan, but the doctor said he couldn’t do the surgery.
All I can add is California passed a Death with Dignity bill. When it’s my time I will use it.
My belief is that we will forever be a backward race until we decide that our ultimate goal as a society should be to ensure as much as possible that every single person be able to pass peacefully, without suffering or abuse (accidents and other sudden deaths notwithstanding, since not all such things could be prevented). I believe external factors have much more of an effect on the in-the-moment experience of death than anyone realizes (many people place that squarely in the realm of religion, which I find a shame, as it prevents people properly talking about death because they see such discussions as challenges on their religious belief).
There is a movie where the dad is dying of cancer. First the son brings him heroin to the hospital and later near the end they all come together and he overdoses and dies in peace. That's the way I want to go out. I have seen people who died in hospital with all kinds of machines hooked up, constantly being probed and relatives telling to keep "fighting". It probably depends on your personality but I prefer to go out at my own will in peace (and high on drugs). I don't want to keep fighting.
"The Barbarian Invasions" Great Canadian film from Quebec.
Are opioid overdoses really peaceful and painless to the person ? Genuine question.
To add: hospice is one of the few nearly fully subsidized gov't healthcare benefits we have in the US (yay Medicare).
https://www.medicare.gov/coverage/hospice-care
https://www.medicare.gov/coverage/hospice-care
Couldn't agree more re: patient advocacy. My mom wrote a book -- a bit of a how-to guide -- for being effective in this role after her experience doing as much guiding her mom through terminal care for dementia.
http://speakingupformom.com/
http://speakingupformom.com/
I'm glad to hear that she was able to find at least some comfort in her final days. I experienced the opposite with mine a few years back. It was a slow spiraling brutal decent of misery. Hope was hard to reason against at the time. There was so much confusion with a clusterfuck of snowballing issues. I don't think we considered or were presented with a less painful and more peaceful option at the time. I'm almost positive everyone including her would have preferred that peaceful route.
> She got all the morphine she wanted, and various other comfort measures.
Something I don't understand: why don't they start with that? Why wait until you're near death? I'm assuming there's a good reason but I'd also hope we have the technology and chemical engineering know how to create pain killers they can be used for long term care effectively.
If anyone has any links/expertise I'd love to understand this component.
Something I don't understand: why don't they start with that? Why wait until you're near death? I'm assuming there's a good reason but I'd also hope we have the technology and chemical engineering know how to create pain killers they can be used for long term care effectively.
If anyone has any links/expertise I'd love to understand this component.
> I'd also hope we have the technology and chemical engineering know how to create pain killers they can be used for long term care effectively.
We don’t. See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opioid_epidemic_in_the_United_...
We don’t. See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opioid_epidemic_in_the_United_...
Because once you’re receiving palliative care there isn’t much concern about hastening your death. So the side effects of morphine like constipation, respiratory depression, sleepiness are lower priority to comfort.
The sad truth is that we don't have any good painkillers. Current painkillers are either weak or have strong side effects.
Source: I have incurable cancer (not yet in any pain) and did a lot of research on every aspect of it (including future pain management.)
I’m very sorry for your loss, and I’m glad to hear you were able to improve your mom’s quality of life in her final days.
I’m very sorry for your loss. Losing a parent is incredibly difficult.
I just wanted to say that I am so sorry for your loss.
I hope you're doing okay. Sorry for your loss.
> having an advocate that help you
Just highlighting this in case people overlook it, since it's a very important concept.
If one of your friends or relatives is ill, going to the doctor or hospital alone should be considered a mistake. The advocate ensures enough questions are asked, despite the condition of the ill person.
I talk to a lot of people in developing countries who have little money, and I tell them to take their ill relative in a taxi or rideshare to a clinic, do whatever tests are necessary, and take them home if possible.
That way the patient can get the most out of the healthcare system for a minimal, controlled expense before checking in.
Just highlighting this in case people overlook it, since it's a very important concept.
If one of your friends or relatives is ill, going to the doctor or hospital alone should be considered a mistake. The advocate ensures enough questions are asked, despite the condition of the ill person.
I talk to a lot of people in developing countries who have little money, and I tell them to take their ill relative in a taxi or rideshare to a clinic, do whatever tests are necessary, and take them home if possible.
That way the patient can get the most out of the healthcare system for a minimal, controlled expense before checking in.
If curious, past threads:
How Doctors Die (2013) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22393335 - Feb 2020 (1 comment)
How Doctors Die (2011) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13122408 - Dec 2016 (45 comments)
How doctors choose to die (2012) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9260286 - March 2015 (81 comments)
How Doctors Die - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7446014 - March 2014 (2 comments)
How Doctors Die (2011) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5104430 - Jan 2013 (94 comments)
How Doctors Die - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3313570 - Dec 2011 (177 comments)
Edit: Just in case anyone's wondering, reposts are ok after a year or so (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html). Listing past threads is just because they might be interesting.
How Doctors Die (2013) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22393335 - Feb 2020 (1 comment)
How Doctors Die (2011) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13122408 - Dec 2016 (45 comments)
How doctors choose to die (2012) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9260286 - March 2015 (81 comments)
How Doctors Die - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7446014 - March 2014 (2 comments)
How Doctors Die (2011) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5104430 - Jan 2013 (94 comments)
How Doctors Die - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3313570 - Dec 2011 (177 comments)
Edit: Just in case anyone's wondering, reposts are ok after a year or so (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html). Listing past threads is just because they might be interesting.
Yup... as I was hitting send to forward the article link to friends, it occurred to me that this had to be at least the 2nd time I'd done so.
Just some words of caution, please don't read this article and think that getting treatment is futile. I was diagnosed with Stage 4B non hodgkins lymphoma 2 years ago, numbers were showing that multiple organs were failing, wasn't able to eat much because the belly got so distended, my PET scan lit up like fireworks after months of diagnostic failure. It took around 3-4 months to get to diagnosis and I was miserable. By that time I had read this article and was thinking maybe I should just go home and die in peace, but my wife told me I need to be strong and not give up.
The following one year was tough, initially I was carried around in wheel chair, too much muscle loss by time of diagnosis. At first, my body was so weak that doctors decided I can't even take the first cycle of chemo at once. My arms were so bruised with all the poking that I had to move them carefully. Then chemo side effects started getting overwhelming. But slowly, things started working. One year in I was back on my feet, started working again. Two years in, here I am writing this comment and hoping for a healthy bright future for everyone out there.
It's better to get advice of multiple doctors, understand risk vs rewards. Yes, there maybe a point when its time to optimize for quality of life and give up, but that should be after one or two lines of treatments.
The following one year was tough, initially I was carried around in wheel chair, too much muscle loss by time of diagnosis. At first, my body was so weak that doctors decided I can't even take the first cycle of chemo at once. My arms were so bruised with all the poking that I had to move them carefully. Then chemo side effects started getting overwhelming. But slowly, things started working. One year in I was back on my feet, started working again. Two years in, here I am writing this comment and hoping for a healthy bright future for everyone out there.
It's better to get advice of multiple doctors, understand risk vs rewards. Yes, there maybe a point when its time to optimize for quality of life and give up, but that should be after one or two lines of treatments.
Excellent! Great perspective, thanks for sharing. And good luck with your future health.
Although the article is written by a doctor, the article portrays medicine/ healthcare as something that doctors (people in the know) refuse, instead of the what really is happening: The doctors know more, and therefore can more easily make an informed decision. In some cases, this means they're willing to stop early when there is a very small (or zero) chance of success. This article is dangerous, because it flips people who default to treatment to default to no treatment, when their default should be to understand and make the informed decision, which has always been the case.
My personal experience with US healthcare is to get a wide perspective, asking different doctors (sometimes in different specialties) of their perspective. This is line with dataminer's advice to seek the advice of multiple doctors. In my case, I had 3 types of doctors to contact: Neurologists, Neurosurgeons (peripheral) and Orthopaedic surgeons, and all 3 doctors had different diagnoses. Only the neurosurgeon (who had the specialty in this exact issue) could make a correct diagnosis. The others were honestly, useless. These are experts in the field, and my health issue overlapped across all 3 fields, it was my decision to go to these different experts after doing my research. *No* doctor was telling me to go to a different doctor, thats for sure.
Although the article is written by a doctor, the article portrays medicine/ healthcare as something that doctors (people in the know) refuse, instead of the what really is happening: The doctors know more, and therefore can more easily make an informed decision. In some cases, this means they're willing to stop early when there is a very small (or zero) chance of success. This article is dangerous, because it flips people who default to treatment to default to no treatment, when their default should be to understand and make the informed decision, which has always been the case.
My personal experience with US healthcare is to get a wide perspective, asking different doctors (sometimes in different specialties) of their perspective. This is line with dataminer's advice to seek the advice of multiple doctors. In my case, I had 3 types of doctors to contact: Neurologists, Neurosurgeons (peripheral) and Orthopaedic surgeons, and all 3 doctors had different diagnoses. Only the neurosurgeon (who had the specialty in this exact issue) could make a correct diagnosis. The others were honestly, useless. These are experts in the field, and my health issue overlapped across all 3 fields, it was my decision to go to these different experts after doing my research. *No* doctor was telling me to go to a different doctor, thats for sure.
I watched my Grandfather die in a way which was truly horrific from terminal cancer.
We have some family members who cared a lot about him and have very deep pockets, so they assembled a team of the best specialists they could find over a variety of disciplines and demanded they throw every treatment possible at him to try to keep him alive. So in his late 80's, with terminal cancer, they have him on chemo, pumped full of an ever changing diet of pills, going through one invasive procedure after another. He was a smart guy too and I think he hated it but didn't have the heart to tell his family who thought they were doing the right thing to stop.
All for what? To keep him barely alive hooked up to machines for an extra month or two? It was one of the saddest things I've ever witnessed that that is what the end of his life had to look like.
We have some family members who cared a lot about him and have very deep pockets, so they assembled a team of the best specialists they could find over a variety of disciplines and demanded they throw every treatment possible at him to try to keep him alive. So in his late 80's, with terminal cancer, they have him on chemo, pumped full of an ever changing diet of pills, going through one invasive procedure after another. He was a smart guy too and I think he hated it but didn't have the heart to tell his family who thought they were doing the right thing to stop.
All for what? To keep him barely alive hooked up to machines for an extra month or two? It was one of the saddest things I've ever witnessed that that is what the end of his life had to look like.
When my grandfather got to the end I remember the doctors and parents and aunt and uncle talking all about "quality of life." Looking back its clear that was their ultimate measure and how they decided to do what they did (and mostly didn't do).
Sorry, not to downplay what you've said. That sounds pretty terrible. It got me thinking about these things.
Sorry, not to downplay what you've said. That sounds pretty terrible. It got me thinking about these things.
My spouse and I talked about this.
Quality of life means still willing to be here, able to get more out of it all than it takes from us.
We both have agreed the other will do the right thing however painful it may be to who ever gets stuck with it first.
We do not know what our survivor does. We fear that.
Quality of life means still willing to be here, able to get more out of it all than it takes from us.
We both have agreed the other will do the right thing however painful it may be to who ever gets stuck with it first.
We do not know what our survivor does. We fear that.
Unfortunately such a common phenomenon that it has a name: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daughter_from_California_syn...
This is very fascinating. In our case the out of town family was very close with their dad but in all the other ways it matches up.
> So in his late 80's, with terminal cancer, they have him on chemo, pumped full of an ever changing diet of pills, going through one invasive procedure after another.
My family came to a different result for somebody the same age.
We looked at it from the standpoint of, "With blood cancer in their 80s, is there an endgame that resulted in getting better?"
If you think about it for a minute, you don't get better in your 80s in a meaningful way, since you aren't going to live forever.
So we asked them what their wishes were, and did not continue treatment. Everybody reached an agreement that wasn't all about the emotions of people who weren't ill.
My family came to a different result for somebody the same age.
We looked at it from the standpoint of, "With blood cancer in their 80s, is there an endgame that resulted in getting better?"
If you think about it for a minute, you don't get better in your 80s in a meaningful way, since you aren't going to live forever.
So we asked them what their wishes were, and did not continue treatment. Everybody reached an agreement that wasn't all about the emotions of people who weren't ill.
>you don't get better in your 80s in a meaningful way, since you aren't going to live forever.
A year or three is a long time at that age. Think about the milestones the grandchildren or great grand children of someone in their 80s are going through. They want to be alive to see that.
A year or three is a long time at that age. Think about the milestones the grandchildren or great grand children of someone in their 80s are going through. They want to be alive to see that.
> So we asked them what their wishes were
I thinked you missed that point.
> They want to be alive to see that.
No, nobody in my family wants to undergo chemo or surgery at an advanced age to see grandkids.
I thinked you missed that point.
> They want to be alive to see that.
No, nobody in my family wants to undergo chemo or surgery at an advanced age to see grandkids.
...but probably not at any cost. I’d ask them rather than assert it.
One more year, stuck into pointless hospital care wouldn't necessarily mean they get to really see (least enjoy) their grandchildren milestones, one thing is for sure: a lot of physical suffering
I think it depends on the severity and person. My grandpa got cancer when he was 90. He beat it and lived another 2 years. He lived at home and didn't have to stay at the hospital.
> you don't get better in your 80s in a meaningful way, since you aren't going to live forever.
No one live forever. My father had bowel cancer in his mid-eighties 4 years ago. He had an operation to remove the tumour and had a very unpleasant month or so recuperating but needed no other treatment. He appears happy and could potentially live another 10 years.
No one live forever. My father had bowel cancer in his mid-eighties 4 years ago. He had an operation to remove the tumour and had a very unpleasant month or so recuperating but needed no other treatment. He appears happy and could potentially live another 10 years.
tejohnso(1)
I can’t find the documentary name, but this article reminds me of it. Basically, a man had chronic pain and spent a decade or more trying to solve it. It got to a point where he realized that even though he had treatments, he was still in a lot of pain and felt like he was just eking out his life just to be miserable every day. At one point, he mentions his grandmother dying of cancer. She’s taking a regimen of pills to stay alive but she’s miserable. She doesn’t have a quality of life, so he eventually asks her why she keeps taking her pills then because they’re basically artificially keeping her alive.
By the end of the film, he says goodbye to his loved ones and has an assisted suicide to escape the pain he was in. It was a really touching documentary. As a society, we have a big focus on “fighting” cancer or other big illnesses. I guess there is a quiet, difficult dignity in deciding to face your mortality too, but it’s rarely talked about.
By the end of the film, he says goodbye to his loved ones and has an assisted suicide to escape the pain he was in. It was a really touching documentary. As a society, we have a big focus on “fighting” cancer or other big illnesses. I guess there is a quiet, difficult dignity in deciding to face your mortality too, but it’s rarely talked about.
There is an almost entirely invisible world of people who are alive but suffering to the degree that a normal life just isn't possible. It's completely hidden unless you or a loved one crosses over the line into that world. If you do find yourself on the other side of that line, it's an extremely dark place to be, but even more so because of the loneliness. Almost no one back in the "normal world" is willing or able talk about the reality of a situation where the scales have tipped and life honestly might no longer worth living.
Watching my previously sharp as a tack and vigorous grandfather’s slow and inexorable decline due to Alzheimer’s convinced me that there are fates worse than death. We lost him 2 or 3 years before the date on his death certificate.
My grandfather passed away a few months ago in January, and he also suffered from Alzheimer’s. I remember one day someone mentioned they needed a tool for some house repairs. He overheard this and tried to bring them the tool from his shed. He kept bringing the wrong thing, and he could tell it was wrong and was growing increasingly frustrated because he couldn’t quite figure out how to bring the right thing. It sticks out in my mind because he seemed aware something was wrong, but was completely helpless.
I totally feel it when you say you lost him years before his death date. It’s terrible. My loss still feels so fresh. Thanks for mentioning your grandfather; it is a comfort to know someone else knows what it’s like.
I totally feel it when you say you lost him years before his death date. It’s terrible. My loss still feels so fresh. Thanks for mentioning your grandfather; it is a comfort to know someone else knows what it’s like.
I had a similar experience with my grandfather who suffered from early dementia. He was fully conscious of his condition degrading and that's the part I am most scared of for myself.
It was basically the end of flowers for Algernon on a longer time scale.
It was basically the end of flowers for Algernon on a longer time scale.
Yes, my father passed from Alzheimers, too. He also "died" about three years before his body did. I've been gradually adopting more and more of the regimen outlined in the book "The End of Alzheimers".
I believe the lack of rights for people doomed to these illnesses will not be viewed upon kindly by our descendants.
What rights are you talking about? I was appointed by the court to handle his financial affairs after he forgot all about them.
My grandmother had a fairly catastrophic stroke (she actually died shortly after due to malpractice, this was awful in the sense that it should never happen but was honestly a blessing in the sense that the result of this stroke was either a nihilist alcoholic trapped in a body that doesn't work or something even worse), witnessing that solidified my conviction that people suffering diseases that cause loss of mental function (like Alzheimer's) should have the right to legally commit suicide in a dignified manner (and the facilities to do within a legally and ethically responsible framework).
I don't know what the US law is, but in the UK at least even flying to Dignitas (for example) with someone is legally not kosher. I didn't pry but I think this situation lead to a suicide in my family also (attributing a single cause to a suicide is usually not a good idea so I won't ponder, other than that it wasn't clean or dignified.)
I don't know what the US law is, but in the UK at least even flying to Dignitas (for example) with someone is legally not kosher. I didn't pry but I think this situation lead to a suicide in my family also (attributing a single cause to a suicide is usually not a good idea so I won't ponder, other than that it wasn't clean or dignified.)
The trouble with legal suicide for things like Alzheimers is the person is, by definition, not legally capable of making such a decision.
I think it's possible for a medical+legal panel to resolve issues like that, but the thing that would probably cause me to chicken (should it happen to me down the line) out would be actually doing it sufficiently long after the initial screening (I don't have a statistic but it isn't uncommon for the result to come long before the really nasty symptoms) but before said symptoms set in. In future we can hopefully spot things like this much earlier (I don't know what came of it but I heard a brain scanning hat similar in mapping capability to an MRI - passive only apparently - being discussed in a physics department, apparently past prototype stage)
I think the same argument can be made for terminal illnesses also but I think the issue there is extreme pain rather than loss of mental faculties which is potentially not the same thing in the eyes of a court.
I think the same argument can be made for terminal illnesses also but I think the issue there is extreme pain rather than loss of mental faculties which is potentially not the same thing in the eyes of a court.
It was almost 15 years for my grandma, thankfully her body gave out late last year. Awkward for us, she was devoutly religious and she'd have never agreed to an earlier end on account of her faith, even if she knew what she was in for.
Same. The worst was grieving his loss while he was still alive because there were other family members that wouldn’t come to grips with the fact that the man we knew was gone. Some of the family grieved over the loss a year before the actual death. It caused strife when his body gave up and it was viewed as a relief for those who already grieved his loss...
My grandfather is suffering from what I guess is intermediate onset of Alzheimer's. A couple of months ago he used to ask for my wife by name during every video call. During our last call he forgot that I'd gotten married at all.
It's terrifying watch him lose his memories week by week.
It's terrifying watch him lose his memories week by week.
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I can't upvote this comment enough.
It is a completely different world. You've heard the words - "cancer", "Alzheimer's", "stroke", and others - but you literally can't imagine the scale of suffering involved until you find out first hand.
I'm not sure people aren't willing to talk about to them. It may be that most people simply don't have the experience, and so are happy living their lives until this other world comes knocking.
I suspect it would make a huge difference to many things - not least health care funding - if there was more awareness of what these words mean.
It is a completely different world. You've heard the words - "cancer", "Alzheimer's", "stroke", and others - but you literally can't imagine the scale of suffering involved until you find out first hand.
I'm not sure people aren't willing to talk about to them. It may be that most people simply don't have the experience, and so are happy living their lives until this other world comes knocking.
I suspect it would make a huge difference to many things - not least health care funding - if there was more awareness of what these words mean.
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This reminds me of the little book „Mortality“ by Christopher Hitchens where he describes his experience with this own terminal cancer.
I remember how he describes this different world and also how mistaken the popular notion of „fighting cancer“ seemed to him when in reality it is a passive suffering.
I remember how he describes this different world and also how mistaken the popular notion of „fighting cancer“ seemed to him when in reality it is a passive suffering.
Yup, completely true. Sometimes you can make it back to the good side, but not always. Most people have no idea of this parallel world because they're busy enjoying their lives in a way countless others are unable to. Which is, ofcourse, in a certain way, what many of those less fortunate people would want for them. Just remember to have empathy.
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Your comment reminded me of this depressing article[0]. IIRC Pushpinder Singh, a very smart MIT fellow, committed suicide because of perpetual back pain after moving furniture incorrectly. I remember it because it is hard for me to imagine someone with so much potential being haunted with pain after moving furniture with friends for an hour.
I am ashamed I cannot get my parents to hire moving people - it is such an easy trick to say you can move something and not be wary. Imagine a loved one being miserable for the rest of their lives for wanting to move a couch a bit; it is just so depressingly avoidable.
To put it in perspective - the back pain industry is at 100+ billion a year in the USA[1] but spending on video games for 2020 was only at 55 billion or so[2].
[0]: https://www.wired.com/2008/01/ff-aimystery/
[1]: https://qz.com/1010259/the-100-billion-per-year-back-pain-in...
[2]: https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/15/22233003/us-npd-group-vid...
I am ashamed I cannot get my parents to hire moving people - it is such an easy trick to say you can move something and not be wary. Imagine a loved one being miserable for the rest of their lives for wanting to move a couch a bit; it is just so depressingly avoidable.
To put it in perspective - the back pain industry is at 100+ billion a year in the USA[1] but spending on video games for 2020 was only at 55 billion or so[2].
[0]: https://www.wired.com/2008/01/ff-aimystery/
[1]: https://qz.com/1010259/the-100-billion-per-year-back-pain-in...
[2]: https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/15/22233003/us-npd-group-vid...
One thing that stood out in that story is how some people just thought he was depressed. I know someone who had sciatica and I think one of the hard parts is that it's not easy to see. On the outside you may look fine but you may be feeling the most excruciating pain of your life. This makes it hard for people to empathize with which further fuels the mental health decline. If you have back problems, I recommend the book "Back Mechanic". This book really helped the person I know.
I experienced sciatica for about a day and thought my life was over. I'd take a kidney stone in its place any time; with a kidney stone you at least think that by moving it might help (and no fear it will last forever).
Fortunately in my case I associated the sciatica to having too thick a wallet in my back pocket, and removing that fixed all. Strong recommendation to those reading here to avoid such carrying of a wallet.
Fortunately in my case I associated the sciatica to having too thick a wallet in my back pocket, and removing that fixed all. Strong recommendation to those reading here to avoid such carrying of a wallet.
I'm sorry to hear that you have so much money that it causes you back pain. :)
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Mortality is the number one problem every single human being and all of our fore-bearers, down to the very first single cell organism, have and have ever had in common. It's the end, te path to nothing. Perhaps you believe there is more. Whatever comes next, death is fucking scary.
I believe it's very natural to do everything in our power to prevent death or at the very least delay it, and to convince others - whose pain we don't feel - to do the same.
I can't even begin to imagine how miserable a person must feel when they are decided that they're leaving us early. It goes against millennia of both collective, and also ones own individual fear and uncertainty. With my liberal Dutch upbringing, have nothing but respect for that.
I believe it's very natural to do everything in our power to prevent death or at the very least delay it, and to convince others - whose pain we don't feel - to do the same.
I can't even begin to imagine how miserable a person must feel when they are decided that they're leaving us early. It goes against millennia of both collective, and also ones own individual fear and uncertainty. With my liberal Dutch upbringing, have nothing but respect for that.
I never understood how the health system spends a lot of resources on keeping people alive when things go towards the end but almost mo effort is being spent on keeping people healthy when they are younger. We are constantly being bombarded with bad food, unhealthy work situations which cause a lot of problems like diabetes or depression but as a society we do nothing about these.
That's actually completely rational if we recall that America is run by pure ruthless greed. It lets young people spend their energy on creating wealth (for others), feeds them with cheapest junk food and when their energy level depletes too much, the healthcare system takes the little savings they have made and sends their bodies to a junkyard. That's how a greedy but smart farmer would manage cattle. One of the reasons this brutal system exists is it reminds the middle class what's going to happen to them should they relax too much.
I think that’s a little too simplistic as the same is true in places with nationalized health services - orders of magnitude more money is spend on advanced age related health than others.
I think it is because it is just simply easier to see that the 80 year old ‘needs’ healthcare and resources more so than the 30 year old. As a society we just haven’t yet grasped the complexity and subtleties of preventative healthcare, especially mental health.
I think it is because it is just simply easier to see that the 80 year old ‘needs’ healthcare and resources more so than the 30 year old. As a society we just haven’t yet grasped the complexity and subtleties of preventative healthcare, especially mental health.
Also the prevention paradox—the success is invisible. It’s much easier to justify investments when the maladies are already visible.
It's being talked about in Canada a great deal these days with medical assistance in dying legislation [1][2][3] having recently come in to effect.
[1] https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/medical-assi...
[2] https://www.canada.ca/en/department-justice/news/2021/03/new...
[3] https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/cj-jp/ad-am/bk-di.html
[1] https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/medical-assi...
[2] https://www.canada.ca/en/department-justice/news/2021/03/new...
[3] https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/cj-jp/ad-am/bk-di.html
It's talked about in this decent TED talk by BJ Miller - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apbSsILLh28 - a guy who lost 3x of his limbs in a youthful misadventure, and went on to be an end-of-life palliative care doctor; he's talking about quality of life rather than lengthening life at all costs.
I second this. In first heard him speak on Peter Attia’s podcast
https://peterattiamd.com/bjmiller/
https://peterattiamd.com/bjmiller/
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Quick Google Scholar search shows the following study with the conclusion, "U.S. physicians were more likely to use hospice and ICU‐ or CCU‐level care. Hospitalization rates were similar."
How U.S. Doctors Die: A Cohort Study of Healthcare Use at the End of Life, https://doi.org/10.1111/jgs.14112
How U.S. Doctors Die: A Cohort Study of Healthcare Use at the End of Life, https://doi.org/10.1111/jgs.14112
> Inpatient hospital use in the last 6 months of life was no different between physicians and nonphysicians, although more physicians used hospice and for longer (using the hospital: odds ratio (OR) = 0.98, 95% confidence interval (CI) = 0.93–1.04; hospital days: mean difference 0.26, P = .14); dying in the hospital: OR = 0.99, 95% CI = 0.95–1.04; intensive care unit (ICU) or critical care unit (CCU) days: mean difference 0.35 more days for physicians, P < .001); using hospice: OR = 1.23, 95% CI = 1.18–1.29; number of days in hospice: mean difference 2.06, P < .001).
Clearly contradicts the OP, and looks a lot more factually based.
Clearly contradicts the OP, and looks a lot more factually based.
A 94% male cohort is so wildly disproportionate to the actual population of physicians (60% female) that it beggars belief. There are a number of potential confounding factors that could explain this ("natural" death being disproportionately represented and skewing the age of the cohort being, imho, the most likely), but with this skew against the total physician population... best taken with a whole lick of salt.
Remember, you're not comparing the distribution of present physicians. You're comparing to the cohort of physicians old enough to die a few years ago. You won't know what the cohort of current physicians will do in old age until they get old.
My 74 YO relative was 1 of 5 in her graduating class of 210 from a US medical school. Women being even a significant minority of US physicians is a new thing.
My mother died, we bury her on Tuesday (2 days from now). Her last few years were difficult, so we put her in assisted care; wonderful place with lots of social activities and a great restaurant.
Well, Covid meant lockdowns and isolation, no friends, no restaurant, just her small apartment with no visitors. We could have 'window visits', like when we dressed up for Easter and waved at her through highly reflective plate glass.
Then she had a stroke. Couldn't speak, couldn't swallow. I thought she was going to die in hospital before we got her to hospice care. Tubes, beeps, shouts, blaring TVs, robot-like doctors.
When we brought her home -her own bedroom- and my siblings cared for her, she thrived. I designed a board for her to communicate with. She laughed, she ate (sort of) and even had her morning coffee looking out at the lake as she always loved.
She died in her sleep, cared for by her children. It wasn't pretty but it was the best anyone could hope for. As for me, I'm going to develop that board and help others with it.
Well, Covid meant lockdowns and isolation, no friends, no restaurant, just her small apartment with no visitors. We could have 'window visits', like when we dressed up for Easter and waved at her through highly reflective plate glass.
Then she had a stroke. Couldn't speak, couldn't swallow. I thought she was going to die in hospital before we got her to hospice care. Tubes, beeps, shouts, blaring TVs, robot-like doctors.
When we brought her home -her own bedroom- and my siblings cared for her, she thrived. I designed a board for her to communicate with. She laughed, she ate (sort of) and even had her morning coffee looking out at the lake as she always loved.
She died in her sleep, cared for by her children. It wasn't pretty but it was the best anyone could hope for. As for me, I'm going to develop that board and help others with it.
Get your living will, DNR, etc done now.
My dad suffered from a stroke four years ago. I lost him that day, although he’s trapped in his own body. He’s debilitated and suffering in a way that is awful. He’s a writer who can’t speak or use his fingers; a chef who can barely feed himself. My mom is a former medical professional guilt ridden over calling 911.
It’s not anyone’s fault; the doctors and paramedics acted quickly and did their best. But our ability to sustain life is ahead of our ability to save it.
My dad suffered from a stroke four years ago. I lost him that day, although he’s trapped in his own body. He’s debilitated and suffering in a way that is awful. He’s a writer who can’t speak or use his fingers; a chef who can barely feed himself. My mom is a former medical professional guilt ridden over calling 911.
It’s not anyone’s fault; the doctors and paramedics acted quickly and did their best. But our ability to sustain life is ahead of our ability to save it.
I'm so sorry you're going through that. Everyone should take this advice seriously.
My 94yo grandfather passed a few days before Christmas last year and I had been staying next-door, taking care of him for about 2 months leading-up to it (helping him to the bathroom a few times per night, getting him water, etc. Congestive heart failure is not the dignified and pain-free death you might think it would be.)
I found his body maybe 5 minutes after his heart had failed, and it took another 20 for the paramedics to arrive. I was really upset to find that when they arrived, without a DNR on file anywhere, they were required to attempt to resuscitate. I was sitting there with my grandmother hoping that it wouldn't come to that, and luckily common sense prevailed and they were able to get a doctor on the phone to sign-off on avoiding CPR. But for a while there, I was really concerned that my grandmother and I were going to have to watch them desecrate his body which had been lifeless for close to 30 minutes. Horrible.
By default, liability overrules common-sense when it comes to medical treatment, and absolutely everyone loses.
My 94yo grandfather passed a few days before Christmas last year and I had been staying next-door, taking care of him for about 2 months leading-up to it (helping him to the bathroom a few times per night, getting him water, etc. Congestive heart failure is not the dignified and pain-free death you might think it would be.)
I found his body maybe 5 minutes after his heart had failed, and it took another 20 for the paramedics to arrive. I was really upset to find that when they arrived, without a DNR on file anywhere, they were required to attempt to resuscitate. I was sitting there with my grandmother hoping that it wouldn't come to that, and luckily common sense prevailed and they were able to get a doctor on the phone to sign-off on avoiding CPR. But for a while there, I was really concerned that my grandmother and I were going to have to watch them desecrate his body which had been lifeless for close to 30 minutes. Horrible.
By default, liability overrules common-sense when it comes to medical treatment, and absolutely everyone loses.
That varies from state to state (and certainly country to country). Here in New York I wouldn’t automatically be required to begin resuscitation in a scenario like that, _especially_ if family requesting no efforts be made. It’s possible (if you’re in the US) that the responders were EMTs, not paramedics, and would have had less autonomy to make that decision.
I know a guy that got resuscitated because when he went from hospital to nursing home he keeled over faster than the nursing home could get his papers through the process and the staff didn't know he had a DNR. The family was pissed about that but he walked out himself a few months later. He wound up back at that nursing home and died there, but that was 7yr later. There's a balance to be struck. You don't want a DNR unless you're serious about dying.
My mother-in-law has a DNR. She was in Guatemala, got a kidney stone, went in for a CT scan, reacted badly to the dye, and her heart stopped. But in Guatemala, they don't know what a DNR is. The idea that anyone would actually want that is totally foreign to them. So they resuscitated her anyway. And, since it was just a reaction to the dye, she was fine - no adverse effects at all. And we're glad to still have her.
But she's also been a nurse, and has said that she didn't know anyone who lived past 80 who hadn't regretted it.
I don't know what conclusions to draw...
But she's also been a nurse, and has said that she didn't know anyone who lived past 80 who hadn't regretted it.
I don't know what conclusions to draw...
As someone who grew up in a medical family, my opinion is that most medical practitioners have a horribly warped view of aging. They spend their working life tending to the worst outcomes of age and end of life care. They think this makes them experts on aging, but really they remain experts on disease.
Plenty of people enjoy life past 80. I wouldn’t draw many of conclusions from your MIL at all.
Plenty of people enjoy life past 80. I wouldn’t draw many of conclusions from your MIL at all.
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My grandma is 84 and enjoying life still. Granted she can't walk as far as she used to, and gets tired more easily, but she's perfectly cogent and fun to have a conversation with. She's in a retirement village where she has friends with similar interests, and she even plays ping pong weekly. I won't lie, when I last played her a couple of years ago she could still take points off me. I don't think she regrets living past 80, though of course I would never ask.
My dad is 82. Up to a few weeks ago, he was going on his 3 mile daily walk, etc. He's getting better at playing bridge. He has a medical issue now but treatment may get him back to "full" activity (up to 4 or so years ago that was a 3 mile run, and that's probably off the table forever).
I don't know that he's enjoyed the past year because of COVID not letting him do very much at all, but if not for that, he'd have been golfing, etc, and scowling at the younger people driving carts instead of walking with their clubs :P. I think he has a decent life.
I don't know that he's enjoyed the past year because of COVID not letting him do very much at all, but if not for that, he'd have been golfing, etc, and scowling at the younger people driving carts instead of walking with their clubs :P. I think he has a decent life.
I'd be careful with the DNR and living will.
While there are many doctors that don't want the end to drag out, there are many who believe DNRs and living wills are not the best thing either (with a good bit of overlap too). Generally, you only want a DNR if you know you have a terminal illness or are very old. The living will can be better, but you still can't cover every scenario or account for all factors. At least you can outline some concepts and name a person to carry out those decisions the best they can.
While there are many doctors that don't want the end to drag out, there are many who believe DNRs and living wills are not the best thing either (with a good bit of overlap too). Generally, you only want a DNR if you know you have a terminal illness or are very old. The living will can be better, but you still can't cover every scenario or account for all factors. At least you can outline some concepts and name a person to carry out those decisions the best they can.
You should at the very least investigate the effectiveness and risks of resuscitation. I only got a DNR after being diagnosed with incurable cancer, but had I known the (in)effectiveness and risks of resuscitation I would have done it much earlier.
It depends on a lot of factors. Most young people without a preexisting issue shouldn't get a DNR. Are there cases where they bring you back as a vegetable? Sure. But there are also cases where they bring you back and make a full recovery. A living will or medical power of attorney would better address the scenarios with bad outcomes for young people without preexisting issues.
I'm sorry about your father.
But... it's easier in hindsight, isn't it? Obviously futile care on someone old is one thing, but if I had a stroke now, ... I have reasonable odds to come out if it almost OK with some minor deficit, so electing not to be treated would be dubious.
And some stroke treatments, like rTPA, do a lot more for odds of disability than they do for mortality. So by declining too much treatment I could be increasing my odds of a bad outcome but surviving.
But... it's easier in hindsight, isn't it? Obviously futile care on someone old is one thing, but if I had a stroke now, ... I have reasonable odds to come out if it almost OK with some minor deficit, so electing not to be treated would be dubious.
And some stroke treatments, like rTPA, do a lot more for odds of disability than they do for mortality. So by declining too much treatment I could be increasing my odds of a bad outcome but surviving.
Reading this made me think of Sartre's The Republic of Silence [1]. In this article, Sartre claims, "never were we more free than under the German occupation." He explains that, roughly, in the face of death, each choice becomes more meaningful, more "authentic."
This goes along with the article's discussion of how doctors, in general, choose to receive far less care than the typical patient when faced with terminal illness. This choice grants an opportunity to live authentically, in Sartre's parlance, for their last months as opposed to going out via the indignity of excessive treatment (e.g., life support machines).
[1] https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/09/pa...
This goes along with the article's discussion of how doctors, in general, choose to receive far less care than the typical patient when faced with terminal illness. This choice grants an opportunity to live authentically, in Sartre's parlance, for their last months as opposed to going out via the indignity of excessive treatment (e.g., life support machines).
[1] https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/09/pa...
This is exactly correct. The briefest quality time left at the end of life is preferred to a longer quantity of life in pain and suffering. To choose otherwise, is to live in bad faith, according to Sartre. Many people recoil in horror at this realization, because they have bought into the idea sold by our culture that we should continue to extend our lives by any means necessary, no matter the social and human costs.
It's funny, because I would argue that popular culture is the exact opposite. Any research into slowing down or reversing the effect of aging is seen as folly and vain. Ask someone if they'd like to live to 100 and the majority of middle-aged people will tell you no because they've seen the effects it had on their parents and grandparents.
Then you have all the thought-terminating cliches that float around such as "life has no meaning without death", "aging is beautiful", "aging is natural". Society is generally very pro-aging and consequently pro-death.
Of course, it's not a crazy attitude at all in our current world where aging is guaranteed. It's much easier to come to terms with something you know will happen for certain. People fear cancer far more than they do aging. The diseases of age are as brutal as they are numerous, and I can absolutely believe that dying is preferable to suffering in many cases. For thousands of years this has been the case, for thousands of years people have had to find ways to come to terms with it. Consequently this idea that aging is actually a good thing is embedded so deeply into our culture that it may as well be part of our DNA.
Why aren't we doing more about it? Why aren't billions being invested into research aiming to prevent/reverse aging? We outspend by a factor of at least 100x on treating the diseases caused by aging. We all know why: social pressures make it very difficult to advocate for without being seen as a naive fool scared of death reaching for immortality. The collective, pointless, preventable damage to humanity will continue to rage on.
Then you have all the thought-terminating cliches that float around such as "life has no meaning without death", "aging is beautiful", "aging is natural". Society is generally very pro-aging and consequently pro-death.
Of course, it's not a crazy attitude at all in our current world where aging is guaranteed. It's much easier to come to terms with something you know will happen for certain. People fear cancer far more than they do aging. The diseases of age are as brutal as they are numerous, and I can absolutely believe that dying is preferable to suffering in many cases. For thousands of years this has been the case, for thousands of years people have had to find ways to come to terms with it. Consequently this idea that aging is actually a good thing is embedded so deeply into our culture that it may as well be part of our DNA.
Why aren't we doing more about it? Why aren't billions being invested into research aiming to prevent/reverse aging? We outspend by a factor of at least 100x on treating the diseases caused by aging. We all know why: social pressures make it very difficult to advocate for without being seen as a naive fool scared of death reaching for immortality. The collective, pointless, preventable damage to humanity will continue to rage on.
Just like there are many diseases that can't be effectively treated, there are many things that can't be effectively researched.
I would guess that if there was an effective way to research the reversing of aging billionaires would be on it out of self interest. But if we have no clue how to approach a problem it isn't clear that spending money on it will help.
To put it another way, even if we could invent a cure for aging one day, if we posit science is 500 years away from such a cure, and billions of dollars would only advance things so a cure would be 450 years away, no living billionaire would be incentivized towards that research.
I tend to see those platitudes like "life has no meaning without death" are a form of self comfort, since we are stuck with death.
Still, humans wouldn't exist without death, since the evolutionary process of natural selection that created us cannot or could not exist without death, so it isn't entirely wrong to consider life and death fundamentally linked.
I would guess that if there was an effective way to research the reversing of aging billionaires would be on it out of self interest. But if we have no clue how to approach a problem it isn't clear that spending money on it will help.
To put it another way, even if we could invent a cure for aging one day, if we posit science is 500 years away from such a cure, and billions of dollars would only advance things so a cure would be 450 years away, no living billionaire would be incentivized towards that research.
I tend to see those platitudes like "life has no meaning without death" are a form of self comfort, since we are stuck with death.
Still, humans wouldn't exist without death, since the evolutionary process of natural selection that created us cannot or could not exist without death, so it isn't entirely wrong to consider life and death fundamentally linked.
There are active efforts [0][1], they're just relatively small (though, like you predicted, receive some funding from billionaires). If it was massively scaled up, who knows what could be accomplished even within the next 50 years.
Personally I'm not hoping to live forever, but I would like to live a larger proportion of my life healthily. The current method of treating the symptoms of age rather than the cause do nothing but extend suffering.
> it isn't entirely wrong to consider life and death fundamentally linked
Not at all, they certainly are linked, I don't think anyone can deny that. What I disagree with is the idea that death gives meaning to life.
[0] https://www.sens.org/
[1] https://www.lifespan.io/the-rejuvenation-roadmap/
Personally I'm not hoping to live forever, but I would like to live a larger proportion of my life healthily. The current method of treating the symptoms of age rather than the cause do nothing but extend suffering.
> it isn't entirely wrong to consider life and death fundamentally linked
Not at all, they certainly are linked, I don't think anyone can deny that. What I disagree with is the idea that death gives meaning to life.
[0] https://www.sens.org/
[1] https://www.lifespan.io/the-rejuvenation-roadmap/
That first link has a guy saying there's a 50% chance most people alive today will live a thousand years.
So... it's a coin flip chance that no more money is needed, if that link is to be believed?
So... it's a coin flip chance that no more money is needed, if that link is to be believed?
Having been through the death of both my parents, my observation is that there is death industry engaged in a giant transfer of wealth from dying people to the medical establishment (who are already very wealthy).
Long term care insurance is a scam. Don't bother. They will find any excuse not to pay. You'll need to go to court or arbitration and the legal fees will eat up any settlement.
When it's my time, I plan to go expediently. No heroic measures, no experimental drug trials. I'd rather my kids inherit what I've worked for in my life than hospitals, doctors, or nursing homes.
Long term care insurance is a scam. Don't bother. They will find any excuse not to pay. You'll need to go to court or arbitration and the legal fees will eat up any settlement.
When it's my time, I plan to go expediently. No heroic measures, no experimental drug trials. I'd rather my kids inherit what I've worked for in my life than hospitals, doctors, or nursing homes.
Aww, sounds like you're an American.
Well, I have news for you...
> my kids inherit what I've worked for
Almost certainly that will also be taken away by the US government by the time you die.
Well, I have news for you...
> my kids inherit what I've worked for
Almost certainly that will also be taken away by the US government by the time you die.
The federal estate tax exemption amount is $11.7 million for individuals. Life insurance payments are not treated as taxable income, beneficiaries do not pay income tax on them.
> $11.7 million for individuals
Should be 0. Death taxes are horrible.
Should be 0. Death taxes are horrible.
Would you care to elaborate why? Estate tax (which IMO seems way too low in the US) makes it harder to accumulate generational wealth, and is a good way help prevent inequality.
> good way help prevent inequality
It's not the gov's job to prevent inequality, but rather to secure God-given negative rights. Or where do you think rights come from?
It's not the gov's job to prevent inequality, but rather to secure God-given negative rights. Or where do you think rights come from?
Rights come from deciding what rules we need to have in place to thrive.
Not God. There is no evidence for God. The argument that rights come from God is not sustainable today.
Not God. There is no evidence for God. The argument that rights come from God is not sustainable today.
> There is no evidence for God
I think we will respectfully depart there. I think there is, and hence, rights come from God. You don't think that, but it's such a fundamental difference that it's hard to go anywhere from there.
I think we will respectfully depart there. I think there is, and hence, rights come from God. You don't think that, but it's such a fundamental difference that it's hard to go anywhere from there.
I'm curious what you would claim as evidence, if you are willing to share, even though, full disclaimer, I don't think talking about this sort of thing is within the realm of intellectual discourse.
We should not want to prevent inequality through government intervention.
We should want to live for our own ends, not for the sake of other people.
We should want to live for our own ends, not for the sake of other people.
> not for the sake of other people
By that measure there should be no objection to eliminating inheritance altogether.
By that measure there should be no objection to eliminating inheritance altogether.
Loving your children can be one of your chosen "ends."
What is abhorrent is when the government choses your ends, for you.
We should not want that.
We should not want government-forced sacrifice instead of giving an inheritance to a beloved person according to our own choices.
I would argue that people who want to ban inheritance love their "brothers" (random and probably non-deserving strangers) too much, and love their children too little.
What is abhorrent is when the government choses your ends, for you.
We should not want that.
We should not want government-forced sacrifice instead of giving an inheritance to a beloved person according to our own choices.
I would argue that people who want to ban inheritance love their "brothers" (random and probably non-deserving strangers) too much, and love their children too little.
> sacrifice
Recieving an unearned $11.70 million untaxed income for free is the opposite of "our own ends" and "sacrifice". It sounds like you fetishize everyone else having a hard time but want to make a special exception for yourself and your kids.
Recieving an unearned $11.70 million untaxed income for free is the opposite of "our own ends" and "sacrifice". It sounds like you fetishize everyone else having a hard time but want to make a special exception for yourself and your kids.
The government forcing someone to give their estate to random strangers is absolutely a forced sacrifice. This is not me being poetic. I think we can agree on this. Do you not?
The question is, whether we want human sacrifice, or not. I think many people want that and would admit it openly. I, on the other hand, do not support human sacrifice.
> It sounds like you fetishize everyone else having a hard time
Do you want to have an honest intellectual discussion or do you want to try to advocate for your ideal system using emotionalism? Because obviously what you've said in this part has no intellectual content. Seems like you're on the border. Make a decision. Do you want to be rational, or not?
The question is, whether we want human sacrifice, or not. I think many people want that and would admit it openly. I, on the other hand, do not support human sacrifice.
> It sounds like you fetishize everyone else having a hard time
Do you want to have an honest intellectual discussion or do you want to try to advocate for your ideal system using emotionalism? Because obviously what you've said in this part has no intellectual content. Seems like you're on the border. Make a decision. Do you want to be rational, or not?
Can hiring only white people be one of my chosen "ends," which the government has no business interfering with? Can serving food to only white people be one of my chosen "ends"?
Yes. Freedom does not work if we are not also permitted to make irrational choices.
What if the state thinks it's stupid to not only serve white people? That was true in my home state within living memory.
What if the state thinks it's irrational to not be a Christian?
What if the state thinks horses are "good enough," and cars are too dangerous to be allowed? Today's America would never allow the automobile to be invented. And Big Candle would probably lobby against the creation of lightbulbs.
Places that practice the kind of racism you are talking about will be the subject of ridicule and will face economic stagnation. Whether on the level of a single establishment, or a country. Rightly so. The civilized world--if there is one--will move on, and will help the discriminated relocate to free societies. (It's a shame we are not doing this for the Uigyurs--we should.)
What if the state thinks it's stupid to not only serve white people? That was true in my home state within living memory.
What if the state thinks it's irrational to not be a Christian?
What if the state thinks horses are "good enough," and cars are too dangerous to be allowed? Today's America would never allow the automobile to be invented. And Big Candle would probably lobby against the creation of lightbulbs.
Places that practice the kind of racism you are talking about will be the subject of ridicule and will face economic stagnation. Whether on the level of a single establishment, or a country. Rightly so. The civilized world--if there is one--will move on, and will help the discriminated relocate to free societies. (It's a shame we are not doing this for the Uigyurs--we should.)
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Can't you move all your savings to a trust that would pay only to your kids?
Not that I'm aware of.
Yes. You need an estate attorney to set it up properly but you can put all your assets into a trust with designated beneficiaries. This also has the advantage of greatly simplifying the probate process compared to a simple will. IANAL but I think this is because the trust does not "die" so all the assets the trust owns are excluded from probate.
> has the advantage of greatly simplifying the probate process
Which is why people do it.
I have seen no evidence that trusts can reduce inheritance taxes. It you have specific examples, I'd appreciate that. I've always been told by wealth management people that trusts are for managing inheritance, not for reducing taxes on it. Maybe I don't have good enough people.
Some of the articles online use a lot of weasel language. For example, consider: https://www.bankrate.com/finance/taxes/estate-taxes-trusts-1...
It says:
"... An amount up to the estate tax exemption is placed into a trust ..."
Yeah - so not helpful!
Also says:
"... Shares of a privately held company that are assigned a low value are placed in the trust and allowed to grow, so that appreciation passes to the heirs tax-free..."
Yeah, but appreciation passes tax-free anyway. If your children inherit stocks from you, they get a cost basis step-up to the value of the stocks on the day of your death. The article is written as if this has something to do with the trust, but it doesn't.
Which is why people do it.
I have seen no evidence that trusts can reduce inheritance taxes. It you have specific examples, I'd appreciate that. I've always been told by wealth management people that trusts are for managing inheritance, not for reducing taxes on it. Maybe I don't have good enough people.
Some of the articles online use a lot of weasel language. For example, consider: https://www.bankrate.com/finance/taxes/estate-taxes-trusts-1...
It says:
"... An amount up to the estate tax exemption is placed into a trust ..."
Yeah - so not helpful!
Also says:
"... Shares of a privately held company that are assigned a low value are placed in the trust and allowed to grow, so that appreciation passes to the heirs tax-free..."
Yeah, but appreciation passes tax-free anyway. If your children inherit stocks from you, they get a cost basis step-up to the value of the stocks on the day of your death. The article is written as if this has something to do with the trust, but it doesn't.
> death industry engaged in a giant transfer of wealth from dying people to the medical establishment
This is the problem: in US the first priority for medical care is profit.
All other aspects are not the first priority, including ethics and psychological health of the patient and the family.
Combine it with a litigation-happy society, greedy insurance companies, and a culture that treats longevity as an entitlement.
Then add the poor focus on prevention and the egregiously lax standards for food/air/water/housing health and safety.
This is the problem: in US the first priority for medical care is profit.
All other aspects are not the first priority, including ethics and psychological health of the patient and the family.
Combine it with a litigation-happy society, greedy insurance companies, and a culture that treats longevity as an entitlement.
Then add the poor focus on prevention and the egregiously lax standards for food/air/water/housing health and safety.
As a haematologist, I find my faith in how well something is going to work is often inverse to how new or expensive it is. Whereas I see many patients who really seem to put faith in a phase II drug or something only recently licensed. New and expensive doesn't necessarily mean good.
When your average outcome is bad, taking the high volatility / uncertain choice looks pretty good.
If you're behind by a couple of strokes in golf near the end of the course, you take some risky shots you wouldn't ordinarily take. They probably won't pay off, but they're the only remaining way to "win".
If you're behind by a couple of strokes in golf near the end of the course, you take some risky shots you wouldn't ordinarily take. They probably won't pay off, but they're the only remaining way to "win".
Exactly. When there's no better choice you take the hail mary shot. Even when the average outcome is "worse" it can make sense. Docs say you have 3 months left. There's an option that probably shortens your life to 2 months, but has a 1% chance of curing you. Average outcome-negative. Worth considering? Yes.
The promise of a miracle fix is understandably alluring. I wonder how many people in such dire situations want to take part in efforts to spare other people their suffering.
This. Had an acquaintance who got a diagnosis of lung cancer stage IV, was told that otherwise she would die in a month and was offered an experimental treatment at one of the very famous cancer hospitals. She took the treatments, promptly swelled up to twice her size, lost consciousness and expired w/o coming to.
<sarcasm>Wow, I thought, that really must have helped reduce some other persons' suffering! All hail to the experimenter who cooked up her treatment! <sarcasm>
Somewhere in my recent readings doctors were characterized as sadists (I thought HN but can't find the post). Cancer treatment experimenters may be prime candidates for that characterization, which sadly seems more explanatory than I would like.
<sarcasm>Wow, I thought, that really must have helped reduce some other persons' suffering! All hail to the experimenter who cooked up her treatment! <sarcasm>
Somewhere in my recent readings doctors were characterized as sadists (I thought HN but can't find the post). Cancer treatment experimenters may be prime candidates for that characterization, which sadly seems more explanatory than I would like.
With all due respect, the lack of faith in progress this implies to me you have as a doctor is depressing.
I don't think this necessarily implies a lack of faith in progress. If 1 out of 10 new drugs is a miracle drug, that means it's wise not to place faith in any one trial drug, while still being hopeful that advances are being made overall.
berberous says " If 1 out of 10 new drugs is a miracle drug"
I think this is a very high estimate, possibly off by 4 orders of magnitude or more.
I think this is a very high estimate, possibly off by 4 orders of magnitude or more.
And seeing people cling to false hope in their last days of life is equally as depressing.
Here is a counter-example. Dr Michael DeBakey, pioneering cardiac surgeon, suffered an aortic dissection at the age of 98 and refused surgery until the decision was made for him by the hospital's ethics committee. Fortunately the surgery was successful and he went back to practice medicine after a lengthy recovery process. From what I could gather he was pretty please with the outcome.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...
https://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/25/health/25surgeon.html
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...
https://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/25/health/25surgeon.html
> From what I could gather he was pretty please with the outcome.
Yes! This is, quite literally, survivorship bias. If the dice rolled on "debilitating postoperative stroke," he would have been less pleased. Based on the NYT article, he actually preferred no operation. But it seems there was enough ambiguity that the decision fell on his wife.
Yes! This is, quite literally, survivorship bias. If the dice rolled on "debilitating postoperative stroke," he would have been less pleased. Based on the NYT article, he actually preferred no operation. But it seems there was enough ambiguity that the decision fell on his wife.
If you want to sidestep the expensive, sketchy funeral home industry
1. Donate your body to science, they'll cremate you for free (https://www.anatomygifts.org/)
and/or
2. Look into natural burial of your remains (http://www.orderofthegooddeath.com/resources/natural-burial)
Preparing for your death now, doesn't somehow influence when you're going to die. But it makes a world of difference to the people that survive after you
1. Donate your body to science, they'll cremate you for free (https://www.anatomygifts.org/)
and/or
2. Look into natural burial of your remains (http://www.orderofthegooddeath.com/resources/natural-burial)
Preparing for your death now, doesn't somehow influence when you're going to die. But it makes a world of difference to the people that survive after you
There was a story about a guy whose mother's dead body was sold to military for 5893 and blown up with a bomb.
One thing I hear from doctor friends is how incentivized they are to try everything, because if they forget something our legal system strays towards malpractice. Also they get incentives from various lobbying groups to try this or that.
Our medical system is fee for service, so the businessmen running hospitals work as hard as they can to push medical staff to go overboard on procedures. Medicare's fee per patient strategy is a major reason why it is the most cost effective in the country.
Ending up on life support is the biggest fear of my life and no matter how I talk to this with my mother she is just not of the idea that people can just choose not to stay alive. I truly believe she's the kind of person that will keep me plugged into a machine so long as she can still feel like she's doing something to keep me alive. We never, ever agreed on the dignity of letting go and dying in one's terms... Of course, I dont live with her anymore, not even the same country... but one of greatest mysteries for me will always be what her idea of life is, we're both religious, I just dont see any point in keep pumping air and blood into a dead corpse... I would seem to be someone figured a way to make a load of money on grief, which disgust me to no end.
I am of the same mind although my parents are religious and I am not. I have a fear that even as a single guy, if I were to slip into a coma, my parents would intervene and want me to stay on. All for the sake of not letting me die just cause pointless suffering is supposedly virtuous. My greatest fear is basically becoming the soldier in the song One by metallica.
When Einstein was ill at age 76 and asked if he wanted to undergo surgery, he refused, saying, "I want to go when I want to go. It is tasteless to prolong life artificially. I have done my share; it is time to go. I will do it elegantly."
From my experience as a rescue-worker, I have instructed my SO to never have me on a machine for life support longer than one week before I'm in my sixties, and no longer than 3 days if I'm over.
This is my decision, and I won't go into details, because they are personal and I am not a doctor. Perhaps the point I desire most others get from my post is this:
We are all going to die. Usually unpleasantly. Most often, unexpectedly, even with a prolonged illness.
Plan your death. Plan your medical treatments. There are things you can control, you need to know & state what they are, and have it in writing.
This is my decision, and I won't go into details, because they are personal and I am not a doctor. Perhaps the point I desire most others get from my post is this:
We are all going to die. Usually unpleasantly. Most often, unexpectedly, even with a prolonged illness.
Plan your death. Plan your medical treatments. There are things you can control, you need to know & state what they are, and have it in writing.
Agreed. I have incurable cancer and I very much plan to die pleasantly. The cost of that is that I will probably die much sooner than necessary, but I can live with that.
If I'm in control, i plan to take a nice deep scuba dive, somewhere warm, with blue water.
I would prefer to avoid a department keeping me hooked up for stats and fees.
Wishing us all a pleasant death! With life being what it is, even some dignity while dying is a great gift.
I would prefer to avoid a department keeping me hooked up for stats and fees.
Wishing us all a pleasant death! With life being what it is, even some dignity while dying is a great gift.
The lead in story isn't terribly surprising to me. Pancreatic cancer is just so bad. Even if you catch it in stage 1 or 2, the median prognosis is under 2 years to live, and it's exceedingly rare to catch it that early. Usually, it's caught stage 4, and the median prognosis there is a few months. I imagine a lot of people with that ahead of them choose to skip chemo and radiation. It's a miserable experience, one you would choose only if it had a marked effect.
This is a good example of death phobia. Anyone who is interested in research of someone who has faced death head on over 1,000 times should read "Die Wise" by Stephen Jenkinson. He was in charge of end of life care in Canada health care system for a decade. He despises palliative care and thinks it distances us from the reality of death which makes it all the more worse. This article really emphasizes the extents people will go to hide their own death, or deny it.
How does palliative care distance us from the reality of death? Isn't it in a sense more natural way to go?
Palliative care is designed to hide the symptoms to make everyone feel better that death isn't really happening. Palliative derives from pall, which means a covering. For example, there is a palliative care drug to hide the "death rattle" from people dying so that it doesn't make the people attending the death uncomfortable.[1] There is language in palliative care that refers to death as "passing" or "moving on", which hides the real word: death. Stephen Jenkinson described the "wretched anxiety"[2] people face who resist their death, which was nearly everyone he counseled. Because they are taught it only happens "later", and then when it happens, it should be quick, neat and tidy. This is passed down to generations when it is ignored. Since it is almost never that way, people suffer horrendously and scrabble to deny it. Death is messy and painful, and it is up to individuals to decide the consequences of trying to hide or fear the most natural of all events. What is the consequence to a culture that decides death should be hidden from sight?
[1] https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families...
[2a] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OSGVkpyRfw
[2b] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLQWM2j3AVg
[1] https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families...
[2a] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OSGVkpyRfw
[2b] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLQWM2j3AVg
Very good article. I think there is an important distinction between acute and chronic disease, with respect to how much time you have to consider the choices you need to make - while you retain the capacity to make them.
In the UK there is an initiative to address some of these problems by having a proactive conversation with all patients before they become too sick. The ReSPECT process (https://www.resus.org.uk/respect/respect-healthcare-professi...) encourages clinicians and patients to establish a shared understanding of what outcomes the patient values and fears before recommending which clinical treatments they would and would not benefit from. It's adoption here has been very positive - for context there have been multiple problematic issues with the use of DNAR (Do Not Attempt Resuscitation) form - especially during the pandemic.
In the UK there is an initiative to address some of these problems by having a proactive conversation with all patients before they become too sick. The ReSPECT process (https://www.resus.org.uk/respect/respect-healthcare-professi...) encourages clinicians and patients to establish a shared understanding of what outcomes the patient values and fears before recommending which clinical treatments they would and would not benefit from. It's adoption here has been very positive - for context there have been multiple problematic issues with the use of DNAR (Do Not Attempt Resuscitation) form - especially during the pandemic.
My father had Esophageal cancer. He underwent radiation therapy and round of chemo. Cancer spread and his esophagus was badly damaged from radiation.
I was lucky enough to see a prominent oncologist. He went through his file and gave me a few options. Since his esophagus was badly damaged all of them included drilling a hole in his abdomen through which he would be able to eat. Well, I should't say eat. The nutrients would be pored in. Oncologist said it's a procedure he would not wish upon his worst enemy. In those exact words. Knowing my father he would never agreed either.
So we switched to palliative care. We never told my mother and grandmother.
He died in his home early afternoon on New Year's Eve in 2012. surrounded by his family. He was 55.
I often think that, in a way, I killed my father.
I was lucky enough to see a prominent oncologist. He went through his file and gave me a few options. Since his esophagus was badly damaged all of them included drilling a hole in his abdomen through which he would be able to eat. Well, I should't say eat. The nutrients would be pored in. Oncologist said it's a procedure he would not wish upon his worst enemy. In those exact words. Knowing my father he would never agreed either.
So we switched to palliative care. We never told my mother and grandmother.
He died in his home early afternoon on New Year's Eve in 2012. surrounded by his family. He was 55.
I often think that, in a way, I killed my father.
If we even could call it ‘killing’ - which I don’t subscribe to - it was an act of mercy, love. And that made all the difference.
It is not about quantity of life but quality of life, I’d say.
It is not about quantity of life but quality of life, I’d say.
> I often think that, in a way, I killed my father.
No, you saved him a lot of suffering. Its something very kind and brave to do
No, you saved him a lot of suffering. Its something very kind and brave to do
I wish the author explained why he generalises to Doctors. Some doctors would say, speak for yourself.
I'd imagine that as a doctor you would have grown accustomed to all of the varied pathways that terminal diseases and their treatments take. It would be inevitable to think through how you would view any given path should it be your own fate one day.
Someone who hasn't had a lifetime to grow accustomed to how, when, and why humans die is less likely to suddenly become accustomed to what a terminal illness means for them in the days following diagnosis and ahead of treatment. Particular to TFA's pancreatic cancer story, should I be diagnosed with it in a few years I'd imagine I'd want to stick it out for a while just because giving up would feel ... weird.
Someone who hasn't had a lifetime to grow accustomed to how, when, and why humans die is less likely to suddenly become accustomed to what a terminal illness means for them in the days following diagnosis and ahead of treatment. Particular to TFA's pancreatic cancer story, should I be diagnosed with it in a few years I'd imagine I'd want to stick it out for a while just because giving up would feel ... weird.
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> According to the statistics, about 30% of those who survive CPR wake up with a cracked sternum and/or broken rib. The key words there are, "wake up." https://www.cprconsultants.com/is-it-true-that-ribs-can-brea...
I did not like it > someone breaking their ribs in an attempt to resuscitate them with CPR (that’s what happens if CPR is done right).
Made it seem like it always happens when correct CPR is done.
I did not like it > someone breaking their ribs in an attempt to resuscitate them with CPR (that’s what happens if CPR is done right).
Made it seem like it always happens when correct CPR is done.
https://www.cprcertified.com/blog/what-happens-if-ribs-break...
"The conventional wisdom is that about 30% of patients suffer fractures or breaks during CPR. However, a 2015 study published in Resuscitation suggested that this percentage is quite a bit higher. The study analyzed autopsy data from 2,148 patients who received CPR for non-trauma-related cardiac arrest, and the statistics were as follows:
* Skeletal chest injuries were found in 86% of men and 91% of women.
* 59% of the men and 79% of the women had sternum fractures.
* 77% of the men and 85% of the women had rib fractures."
"The conventional wisdom is that about 30% of patients suffer fractures or breaks during CPR. However, a 2015 study published in Resuscitation suggested that this percentage is quite a bit higher. The study analyzed autopsy data from 2,148 patients who received CPR for non-trauma-related cardiac arrest, and the statistics were as follows:
* Skeletal chest injuries were found in 86% of men and 91% of women.
* 59% of the men and 79% of the women had sternum fractures.
* 77% of the men and 85% of the women had rib fractures."
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End-of-life memoirs, the type where the author has a terminal illness and knows the end is nigh, are one of my favorite genres. Key takeaways after having read ~10 such books:
1. You will die.
2. Enjoy life.
3. Be kind.
1. You will die.
2. Enjoy life.
3. Be kind.
The medical profession spend a long time (rightly) ruminating on death. To die is, unfortunately, a natural consequence of being born: all doctors can hope to do is change the order around a little bit here and there. Yet that does not mean that the practice of medicine is pointless, nor does it mean that death has to be accepted. One of the main medical training "shorthand" books in this country, the oxford handbook of medical sciences, affectionately known as 'prawn cocktail' owing to the similar colour of its binding and a packet of Walkers' [EN-US: Lays] crisps, simply has two double-page spreads on the subject: "death of a parent" and then, following that, "death of a child". No mention is ever made of "death of yourself".
I think that doctors spend a long time subconsciously thinking about this subject, and knowing full well that there are some conditions -- like gastro-oesphageal reflux disorder, let's say -- where it is overwhelmingly like that, with the help of the last few decades of technology, be something that you die with, and not of. The difference between refusing treatment may be pain initially, and a preposition to get cancer of the oesophagus later on. Then there are other conditions that are awful death sentences, and have been since time immemorial, diagnoses where a good outcome changes dying at home in four months to dying in a hospital in eight.
When I received a spinal injury following trauma, one of my colleagues (a cardiologist specialising in heart failure and transplant, both conditions where unfortunately a sizeable proportion of patients do not survive a long time) simply said to me: "well, this is life -- you're born, bad things happen, and then you die".
I found it oddly comforting, and had absolutely no qualms about taking the next dose of morphine...
I think that doctors spend a long time subconsciously thinking about this subject, and knowing full well that there are some conditions -- like gastro-oesphageal reflux disorder, let's say -- where it is overwhelmingly like that, with the help of the last few decades of technology, be something that you die with, and not of. The difference between refusing treatment may be pain initially, and a preposition to get cancer of the oesophagus later on. Then there are other conditions that are awful death sentences, and have been since time immemorial, diagnoses where a good outcome changes dying at home in four months to dying in a hospital in eight.
When I received a spinal injury following trauma, one of my colleagues (a cardiologist specialising in heart failure and transplant, both conditions where unfortunately a sizeable proportion of patients do not survive a long time) simply said to me: "well, this is life -- you're born, bad things happen, and then you die".
I found it oddly comforting, and had absolutely no qualms about taking the next dose of morphine...
The older I get, the more I understand why some people refuse to go to the doctor for any reason. They are not stubborn fools, they are perfectly rational.
Some people don't even want to know if there is a 10% that they will die, they's rather just die than face their own mortality. They know their nervous system can't handle that.
Some people don't even want to know if there is a 10% that they will die, they's rather just die than face their own mortality. They know their nervous system can't handle that.
Related, cites this piece: https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/07/17/who-by-very-slow-decay...
Wow such a captivating article I read the whole extremely long thing. There is indeed no authentic hospital poetry.
For some reason, a intro and video by the author he linked to is giving a 404 error.
Here's the wayback copy of the intro: https://web.archive.org/web/20180415050715/https://www.satur...
And the video on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KG8Z428Hpw
Here's the wayback copy of the intro: https://web.archive.org/web/20180415050715/https://www.satur...
And the video on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KG8Z428Hpw
Not, doctors normally don't die like this. This is a very local point of view that shouldn't be treated as dogma.
Of course for assurance is good to put money into convincing every patient to go home, die peacefully and refuse the expensive treatments that they would have to pay otherwise. "Kill-yourself-at-home kit, is good for ya" will be probably the next step.
Not trying to ignore the fact that healthcare looks very broken in some parts of the planet, but people has what they voted for.
Of course for assurance is good to put money into convincing every patient to go home, die peacefully and refuse the expensive treatments that they would have to pay otherwise. "Kill-yourself-at-home kit, is good for ya" will be probably the next step.
Not trying to ignore the fact that healthcare looks very broken in some parts of the planet, but people has what they voted for.
I am a doc and would absolutely die peacefully at home. You don't understand what aggressive treatments really entail because you've never seen it yourself. FYI, docs would earn more by advising to treat and you are being delusional.
My dad was lucky enough to die in his own bed with my Mum holding one hand and me the other. The last several months he was on morphine for the pain, but overall it is hard to see how it could have gone better (if it was going to happen of course - he didn't have as long with the grandkids as we would have wished).
I am also reminded of this book "Final Chapters: A Hospice Social Worker’s Stories of Courage, Heart and Power" which I found very insightful.
I am also reminded of this book "Final Chapters: A Hospice Social Worker’s Stories of Courage, Heart and Power" which I found very insightful.
I wonder what doctors do with their terminal ill children. It's easy to decide to decline treatment for oneself if one knows that there is no reasonable way.
But to do same for children?
But to do same for children?
I don’t know the answer. But I can imagine that they would do the same, depending on the circumstances.
I think it is not about quantity of life.
It is about quality of life.
I think it is not about quantity of life.
It is about quality of life.
That part about CPR done right breaking ribs seems to be refuted by a lot of the top results that come up when i looked for "Should CPR break ribs?"
https://www.cprcertified.com/blog/what-happens-if-ribs-break...
"The conventional wisdom is that about 30% of patients suffer fractures or breaks during CPR. However, a 2015 study published in Resuscitation suggested that this percentage is quite a bit higher. The study analyzed autopsy data from 2,148 patients who received CPR for non-trauma-related cardiac arrest, and the statistics were as follows:
* Skeletal chest injuries were found in 86% of men and 91% of women.
* 59% of the men and 79% of the women had sternum fractures.
* 77% of the men and 85% of the women had rib fractures."
"The conventional wisdom is that about 30% of patients suffer fractures or breaks during CPR. However, a 2015 study published in Resuscitation suggested that this percentage is quite a bit higher. The study analyzed autopsy data from 2,148 patients who received CPR for non-trauma-related cardiac arrest, and the statistics were as follows:
* Skeletal chest injuries were found in 86% of men and 91% of women.
* 59% of the men and 79% of the women had sternum fractures.
* 77% of the men and 85% of the women had rib fractures."
Let's just say that it's really difficult not to break anything during CPR in general. Especially because the patient is often old and fragile. On young people, it's much easier.
I have stage 4 metastatic cancer and this article confirmed what I thought myself - it's not worth it to "put a fight". My life haven't been great, so I am even relieved now it is ending. I'll tell my family only when it's time to load up on oxi.
If I am given a death sentence where I know I have X months to live I want the following things:
- I want the right to take some opiates and feel as comfortable as possible
- I want the right to refuse medical procedures with a low chance of success
- I want to be able to be with my loved ones
That's exactly what hospice care is.
We're all scared of death, and fear clouds judgement. It can be so difficult to get small treatments that improve your quality of life done. But when you're 80 and near death, they'll stop at nothing.
My grandma had dementia for the last few years of her life after having some strokes. My dad told me that if he ever gets like that, to buy him a one way ticket to Nome and say goodbye.
Just shared with my parents and amending my will.
If it wasn’t for certain experiences that I’ve had in the past, I’d say that death is the final end.
But I’m not so sure.
But I’m not so sure.
Can't leave us hanging on that
“Whenever a doctor cannot do good, he must be kept from doing harm.” - Hippocrates
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I hope I am strong enough to go with dignity when the time comes.
When two doctors meet, which one receives the outrageous bill?
I'm afraid of death. Very afraid. I'm pretty sure we're just meat sacks and when my heart stops beating that'll be the end of all that I am, and that scares the shit out of me. Calling what I feel about death "fear" is almost a category error; it's a five-hundred-foot-tall Godzilla of dread looming just behind me always, and every so often I happen to think about it, I happen to turn and glance at it, and my stomach just drops. The realization that it's all going to end is the ultimate anxiety underlying all others.
So when I read something like this, it just seems... so alien. I can't imagine a pain or any feeling, really, worth wishing I was dead over. There can't be anything worse than death. There just can't. Pretty much any amount of bad is preferable to infinite nothing.
Maybe the scariest part is that one day, I'm afraid I might change my mind. I'm afraid I might be brought to a point where I think, "Ah, this is it. This is the feeling that's worth dying to escape". The only thing scarier than the worst fear imaginable is the unthinkable idea of a pain so unimaginable that it makes succumbing to that fear seem like a mercy.
So when I read something like this, it just seems... so alien. I can't imagine a pain or any feeling, really, worth wishing I was dead over. There can't be anything worse than death. There just can't. Pretty much any amount of bad is preferable to infinite nothing.
Maybe the scariest part is that one day, I'm afraid I might change my mind. I'm afraid I might be brought to a point where I think, "Ah, this is it. This is the feeling that's worth dying to escape". The only thing scarier than the worst fear imaginable is the unthinkable idea of a pain so unimaginable that it makes succumbing to that fear seem like a mercy.
I’m sorry you feel that way. Death is inevitable. It is natural. It is universal. Birth, Death, and ideally reproduction in between- that’s the essence of life. You have to look beyond yourself as an individual. Humanity was here before you were born, but you were part of it in your ancestors’s genes. Humanity will continue after your death, and you will be part of it in the genes you pass down to your children, and the ripples of your actions in life.
Death is a change, but it hold no more horror than pre-birth. Be at peace. Embrace your time. Live your life with purpose, love, humility and hope. Our ephemerality makes every moment meaningful, enjoy it.
Death is a change, but it hold no more horror than pre-birth. Be at peace. Embrace your time. Live your life with purpose, love, humility and hope. Our ephemerality makes every moment meaningful, enjoy it.
This seems like telling a depressed person "I'm sorry you're depressed when there's so much to be happy or content with." And then proceeding to list all the things you are happy or content with. And then concluding with "Don't be depressed."
hmm I didn't mean to come off that way. Obviously I'm not gonna change someone's opinion about something this significant in a single online comment. I'm just genuinely sad that they have that fear. I'm glad that I don't, and tried to present an alternative perspective on a complex issue.
Oh I get it, I didn’t think your motivations were wrong, just that your message wasn’t going to deliver the way you probably thought it would.
The reason I responded was to let you know that so that you could decide if you wanted to adjust your approach or not with more complete information in the future.
The reason I responded was to let you know that so that you could decide if you wanted to adjust your approach or not with more complete information in the future.
I dealt with severe death anxiety for awhile. Reading posts like the one above didn't fix it, but they did give me things to think about, consider, and research. Over time, those types of insight did come to help. I don't think anyone posting here is expecting to receive therapy in the replies.
Don't mean to offend, but I find it a remarkable collection of acceptable platitudes on the topic. Yes, death exists. No, it's not something to be in awe of, something to appreciate like a beautiful tree.
Time arrow points in the direction of less beauty existing.
Time arrow points in the direction of less beauty existing.
sure, but how does moping about the inevitable heat death of the universe help?
Life is good, we should try to get more of it by taking better care of ourselves, other people, and the fragile blue ball that carries us through space. Eventually the sun will explode and the blue ball will go away. Maybe we can take life far & fast enough to survive that! Heat death of the universe probably catches us eventually. Would it be better for a living things to be scared waiting for cosmic doom?
Sure you need some motivation to keep pushing forward. I think it's good to strive for more life. I think you can do that while simultaneously accepting that you cannot achieve infinite life.
Life is good, we should try to get more of it by taking better care of ourselves, other people, and the fragile blue ball that carries us through space. Eventually the sun will explode and the blue ball will go away. Maybe we can take life far & fast enough to survive that! Heat death of the universe probably catches us eventually. Would it be better for a living things to be scared waiting for cosmic doom?
Sure you need some motivation to keep pushing forward. I think it's good to strive for more life. I think you can do that while simultaneously accepting that you cannot achieve infinite life.
Obviously it's not great to feel the fear of death constantly following you, wherever you go. But it's possible to not have that experience while also not (falsely) accepting death as inevitable. I know because I am neither constantly plagued by the fear of death, nor do I believe it's inevitable.
To say that death isn't inevitable isn't the same as saying it's particularly likely that any of us will evade it, but the chance is not literally zero, and by my own estimates, I say it's non-negligible.
It's pretty uncontroversial to say that life extension technology is possible. There are times in the past when people didn't live as long as they now do. Finding more effective cancer/Alzheimer's/heart disease treatments is life extension. It's within the realm of possibilities that life extension tech will advance enough to let us live for some centuries. Cryonics (freezing yourself after death) is also something that could possibly work. It's possible that in the future, we'll figure out ways to successfully thaw and revive people who undergo cryonics.
Neither of these are immortality, exactly. For that you would need some sort of mind-state backup system or "consciousness uploading." That tech might not be available for a long time, but life extension/cryonics could hold many people over until it's available. Many people believe that it's either impossible, or that it wouldn't "be you" when you were restored from a backup. I think that these positions are wrong, but regardless, anyone who takes such a position has to allow that there's some possibility that they're wrong, and in fact such tech is possible and would work as intended. The theories of personal identity argued in Reasons and Persons by Derek Parfit are relevant here.
I think it's important that we don't accept death as inevitable, because if people don't hold out hope of conquering death, then it's less likely that we'll conquer it in time.
I never struggled with an intrusive fear of death, so I don't have detailed suggestions for how to overcome it. But facing up to the fact that you are probably going to die, and introspecting into what specifically makes you so afraid, then taking measures to address it — that sort of thing — will probably help.
Measures that might help, depending on the nature of one's fear:
- Starting a mindfulness meditation practice to learn to notice when you fear death, and learn to dismiss the fear
- Seeking psychotherapy with a similar goal
- Study philosophy. It's possible that your intrusive fear of death stems from contradictory beliefs you hold, and you just haven't noticed the contradiction.
- Registering for cryonics, so that you know that you have done something to fight back against death (this might well increase your fear of death, beware)
- Switch careers to work on life extension technology. When vikings raid your village, you will be afraid. But the nature of your fear will depend on whether you decide to cower in fear or take up arms and fight back. Maybe you prefer the fear felt by someone fighting back.
But remember that death is horrible, and it's right and proper to fear it, as long as the fear isn't too intrusive.
To say that death isn't inevitable isn't the same as saying it's particularly likely that any of us will evade it, but the chance is not literally zero, and by my own estimates, I say it's non-negligible.
It's pretty uncontroversial to say that life extension technology is possible. There are times in the past when people didn't live as long as they now do. Finding more effective cancer/Alzheimer's/heart disease treatments is life extension. It's within the realm of possibilities that life extension tech will advance enough to let us live for some centuries. Cryonics (freezing yourself after death) is also something that could possibly work. It's possible that in the future, we'll figure out ways to successfully thaw and revive people who undergo cryonics.
Neither of these are immortality, exactly. For that you would need some sort of mind-state backup system or "consciousness uploading." That tech might not be available for a long time, but life extension/cryonics could hold many people over until it's available. Many people believe that it's either impossible, or that it wouldn't "be you" when you were restored from a backup. I think that these positions are wrong, but regardless, anyone who takes such a position has to allow that there's some possibility that they're wrong, and in fact such tech is possible and would work as intended. The theories of personal identity argued in Reasons and Persons by Derek Parfit are relevant here.
I think it's important that we don't accept death as inevitable, because if people don't hold out hope of conquering death, then it's less likely that we'll conquer it in time.
I never struggled with an intrusive fear of death, so I don't have detailed suggestions for how to overcome it. But facing up to the fact that you are probably going to die, and introspecting into what specifically makes you so afraid, then taking measures to address it — that sort of thing — will probably help.
Measures that might help, depending on the nature of one's fear:
- Starting a mindfulness meditation practice to learn to notice when you fear death, and learn to dismiss the fear
- Seeking psychotherapy with a similar goal
- Study philosophy. It's possible that your intrusive fear of death stems from contradictory beliefs you hold, and you just haven't noticed the contradiction.
- Registering for cryonics, so that you know that you have done something to fight back against death (this might well increase your fear of death, beware)
- Switch careers to work on life extension technology. When vikings raid your village, you will be afraid. But the nature of your fear will depend on whether you decide to cower in fear or take up arms and fight back. Maybe you prefer the fear felt by someone fighting back.
But remember that death is horrible, and it's right and proper to fear it, as long as the fear isn't too intrusive.
> I think it's important that we don't accept death as inevitable, because if people don't hold out hope of conquering death, then it's less likely that we'll conquer it in time.
I agree it's important and rational to push back against death even if it's impossible to conquer death.
I think you have to believe that Life is Good, and thus we should want More Life. Life extension tech is worth pursuing because additional healthy years give us more life. That's valuable even for relatively small gains.
In fact, I think the "conquer death" argument is counter productive! Nobody has ever successfully avoided death[0]. If you start your argument with "yeah, but what if we STOPPED dying" nobody will take this seriously. Because even if you're right, it's outside the realm of literally all human experience to date, which is a lot to sell someone on.
Better to just say "life is good, here's some tech that could produce more healthy life. Want some?" Because people definitely want some. Health and Wellness is like a $3B market[1]. Why make it more complicated than that?
[0] Maybe Jesus, but if you buy that one it implies a whole different world view.
[1] https://finance.yahoo.com/news/global-health-wellness-market...
I agree it's important and rational to push back against death even if it's impossible to conquer death.
I think you have to believe that Life is Good, and thus we should want More Life. Life extension tech is worth pursuing because additional healthy years give us more life. That's valuable even for relatively small gains.
In fact, I think the "conquer death" argument is counter productive! Nobody has ever successfully avoided death[0]. If you start your argument with "yeah, but what if we STOPPED dying" nobody will take this seriously. Because even if you're right, it's outside the realm of literally all human experience to date, which is a lot to sell someone on.
Better to just say "life is good, here's some tech that could produce more healthy life. Want some?" Because people definitely want some. Health and Wellness is like a $3B market[1]. Why make it more complicated than that?
[0] Maybe Jesus, but if you buy that one it implies a whole different world view.
[1] https://finance.yahoo.com/news/global-health-wellness-market...
I think death is inevitable in the way that in order for further life to continue, there must be death. The reason we love and experience things and go do stuff is because we know we have a limited time in this earth. We make way for the new just like the ones who came before us made way for us.
But then it doesn't sound like you think death is inevitable so much as that it's good.
It looks like you're making two different claims:
1. If you lived forever, there wouldn't be any reason to do anything.
2. Living forever isn't compatible with letting new people be born and live their lives.
To your first point: if you learned you were going to liber forever, would you stop spending time with your friends and family? Would you stop enjoying the time you spent together? I really don't see why you would. You might choose to put off some major life transitions, like having kids or starting a business, but would you put them off forever? If you really would put them off forever, are you sure that it's something you want to do, or do you just feel like you are supposed to do it? Is it a bad thing to let your twenties last 40 years, and only then settle down, because you know you have all the time in the world?
To your second point, I could go on about how there are a number of ways to make immortality compatible with new life, but sure, let's say that there isn't. Then the advent of immortality would be a radical change to the present order of the world. But would it be a bad change? The circle of life is beautiful, but the prospect of no one ever dying ever again is, I would say, good on the scale required to say that it might well be worth sacrificing the potential for new people to enter the world.
It looks like you're making two different claims:
1. If you lived forever, there wouldn't be any reason to do anything.
2. Living forever isn't compatible with letting new people be born and live their lives.
To your first point: if you learned you were going to liber forever, would you stop spending time with your friends and family? Would you stop enjoying the time you spent together? I really don't see why you would. You might choose to put off some major life transitions, like having kids or starting a business, but would you put them off forever? If you really would put them off forever, are you sure that it's something you want to do, or do you just feel like you are supposed to do it? Is it a bad thing to let your twenties last 40 years, and only then settle down, because you know you have all the time in the world?
To your second point, I could go on about how there are a number of ways to make immortality compatible with new life, but sure, let's say that there isn't. Then the advent of immortality would be a radical change to the present order of the world. But would it be a bad change? The circle of life is beautiful, but the prospect of no one ever dying ever again is, I would say, good on the scale required to say that it might well be worth sacrificing the potential for new people to enter the world.
I think of it as needed for the species and not for the individual. My and your values currently living have been shaped by our parents and people who we have met. These people have been influenced by the fact that death is inevitable. Our human history has had the inevitability of death looming over it since we went from being non-life to life. I don't think we can judge this based on what I currently would want for myself.
My views are shaped around the fact that I can die. And if I woke up tomorrow knowing that I cannot die, I would still have those deeply ingrained values in me.
I'm more worried about the effect on the human species. How would my great great grandchildren act in the world knowing nothing of death or the fear of during from old age? I'm not so sure it's 100% a positive thing and it has the potential to be a very negative thing. Worse than what we have right now.
This is all very fascinating and it's really interesting to speculate though. There's probably just as many arguments in opposition as there are in support.
I'm more worried about the effect on the human species. How would my great great grandchildren act in the world knowing nothing of death or the fear of during from old age? I'm not so sure it's 100% a positive thing and it has the potential to be a very negative thing. Worse than what we have right now.
This is all very fascinating and it's really interesting to speculate though. There's probably just as many arguments in opposition as there are in support.
Death is dead. Death remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of the murderer of all murderers?
"it holds no more horror than pre-birth" is an excellent way to phrase how I think/feel about it. I wasn't able to be bothered by it then, and I won't be able to be bothered by it when it happens. I'm only able to be bothered by it now, so I mostly choose not to be bothered by it even now.
You weren’t bothered by it because you had no previous experience of life.
I think some (maybe many?) people aren’t afraid of “being dead” they’re afraid of all the things they know exist and are enjoyable.
Life is the greatest, and most tragic blessing. Once you know you can’t un-know.
I think some (maybe many?) people aren’t afraid of “being dead” they’re afraid of all the things they know exist and are enjoyable.
Life is the greatest, and most tragic blessing. Once you know you can’t un-know.
You can unknow at the point you no longer posses the capacity to know. Which is why pre-birth and post-life are the same.
The mistake is in projecting the current emotions of attachment to the current capacity to experience all the things to a time where no such capacity exists. If you do that you will feel afraid of death in this way. If you see pre-birth as fundamentally exactly the same as post-life and aren't bothered by the pre-birth phase, then you have no problems.
The mistake is in projecting the current emotions of attachment to the current capacity to experience all the things to a time where no such capacity exists. If you do that you will feel afraid of death in this way. If you see pre-birth as fundamentally exactly the same as post-life and aren't bothered by the pre-birth phase, then you have no problems.
It’s not fear of being dead once you’re dead, it’s fear of losing all of these joys in life while you’re alive and knowing that it’s all going away.
I’m only not bothered by pre-birth because I wasn’t alive to understand the wonderful existence I have now.
It’s like being at a great party but knowing that your ride home is coming soon. I’d rather stay at the party.
I’m only not bothered by pre-birth because I wasn’t alive to understand the wonderful existence I have now.
It’s like being at a great party but knowing that your ride home is coming soon. I’d rather stay at the party.
Bad metaphor. You're still alive after a party and could go to another. You're still projecting your aliveness onto the dead state. You choose how you feel about it based on how you frame it. If I frame it the way you do, then I feel the same way. If that ever happens, which on the odd occasion it does, I reframe it to my preferred frame and those feelings disappear.
> You're still alive after a party and could go to another.
Hmm. What I’ve said is basically that it’s the only party - but that’s to evoke a feeling not to be taken literally.
> You’re still projecting your aliveness onto the dead state
I’m not sure I follow. Can you elaborate? I’m speaking about specifically being alive and enjoying that, not fearing death in the act of being dead. I fear death as an alive person, not as a dead person.
When I say I fear death it’s not that I fear being dead. There won’t be anything. But as an alive person I know there’s lots of awesome stuff I’d like to be a part of. I would like to continue that experience. I don’t care what death holds.
Hmm. What I’ve said is basically that it’s the only party - but that’s to evoke a feeling not to be taken literally.
> You’re still projecting your aliveness onto the dead state
I’m not sure I follow. Can you elaborate? I’m speaking about specifically being alive and enjoying that, not fearing death in the act of being dead. I fear death as an alive person, not as a dead person.
When I say I fear death it’s not that I fear being dead. There won’t be anything. But as an alive person I know there’s lots of awesome stuff I’d like to be a part of. I would like to continue that experience. I don’t care what death holds.
To summarise "don't think about it".
Why do you fear it as an alive person? I get that you do, and I can make myself feel this way too if I indulge that same frame of reference. But why do you feel those emotions? Losing something hurts. But why do you feel bad about that loss? Most likely it's because you _can_ feel bad about it while you are alive. And, I certainly get that. It does make sense. But I see it as a fundamental error to feel this sense of loss about not being able to enjoy all the experiences of being alive because as a rule I take into account the fundamental state change that occurs after I'm dead. I look at that period only from the perspective of being dead, as that's how I'll be. If you look at being dead from the perspective of being alive, a frame in which you have emotions you can feel, then it feels bad, but this is some sort of strange faux-state that doesn't actually exist in reality as once you're dead you're dead, and while you're alive you're not dead. You're mixing aliveness and deadness together where I choose to cleanly separate them. I don't think about being dead from the perspective of being alive or having had been alive.
Why do you fear it as an alive person? I get that you do, and I can make myself feel this way too if I indulge that same frame of reference. But why do you feel those emotions? Losing something hurts. But why do you feel bad about that loss? Most likely it's because you _can_ feel bad about it while you are alive. And, I certainly get that. It does make sense. But I see it as a fundamental error to feel this sense of loss about not being able to enjoy all the experiences of being alive because as a rule I take into account the fundamental state change that occurs after I'm dead. I look at that period only from the perspective of being dead, as that's how I'll be. If you look at being dead from the perspective of being alive, a frame in which you have emotions you can feel, then it feels bad, but this is some sort of strange faux-state that doesn't actually exist in reality as once you're dead you're dead, and while you're alive you're not dead. You're mixing aliveness and deadness together where I choose to cleanly separate them. I don't think about being dead from the perspective of being alive or having had been alive.
Don’t take this as an ill-intention comment but if you live with the perspective of a dead person why not just kill yourself?
Why would you care and why would it matter if you do? Like what’s the point of being alive with such an outlook?
Why would you care and why would it matter if you do? Like what’s the point of being alive with such an outlook?
One - that this needs to be is surprising. May be different world views and approaches contribute to this kind of feeling.
Two - you have expressed the sentiment beautifully. I may want to steal it later. Thank you sincerely.
Two - you have expressed the sentiment beautifully. I may want to steal it later. Thank you sincerely.
I disagree, but CGP Grey says it better in The Fable of the Dragon Tyrant:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZYNADOHhVY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZYNADOHhVY
I don't think these are conflicting ideas. We should absolutely do what we can to fight against the aging process, which is horrible in so many ways.
But defeating aging will never mean that we've defeated death. Accidents, murder, disease, and disasters would still happen. And the 2nd law of thermodynamics would still reign supreme eventually, even over effectively "immortal" humans.
So it's important to understand and accept death, even if we continue to work towards a world where nobody has to die of old age.
But defeating aging will never mean that we've defeated death. Accidents, murder, disease, and disasters would still happen. And the 2nd law of thermodynamics would still reign supreme eventually, even over effectively "immortal" humans.
So it's important to understand and accept death, even if we continue to work towards a world where nobody has to die of old age.
Immortality would be horrible.
Our brains aren't big enough to hold an eternity of memories, so you would forget who you were to make room for what you'll become. What's the point of immortality without continuity? That's a living death.
And forget about actually cheating death. Imagine if somehow you survived long enough to witness the heat death of the universe. Stuck on some Dyson sphere around a white dwarf for billions of years as the entire universe fades to black and all the things you used to do become impossible because there isn't enough energy to do them. And in the end you still get sucked into a black hole like everyone else, wondering if you are the last living thing in the universe.
Nah I'll just die when the sun still shines.
Our brains aren't big enough to hold an eternity of memories, so you would forget who you were to make room for what you'll become. What's the point of immortality without continuity? That's a living death.
And forget about actually cheating death. Imagine if somehow you survived long enough to witness the heat death of the universe. Stuck on some Dyson sphere around a white dwarf for billions of years as the entire universe fades to black and all the things you used to do become impossible because there isn't enough energy to do them. And in the end you still get sucked into a black hole like everyone else, wondering if you are the last living thing in the universe.
Nah I'll just die when the sun still shines.
This is over-dramatizing. For many people, life is obviously a valuable enough experience to be extended many times over.
> Our brains aren't big enough to hold an eternity of memories, so you would forget who you were to make room for what you'll become.
This is already the case anyway.
I still want to live even if I don't remember everything and who I am have changed over time
This is already the case anyway.
I still want to live even if I don't remember everything and who I am have changed over time
There's a huge leap from "let's do what we can to defeat aging" to "I don't want to live to see the heat death of the universe".
I also like this related illustrative video about our attitudes to aging and longevity https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoJsr4IwCm4
I also think that there's no afterlife. Soon as the brain stops working, everything goes dark. Eternal peace. I find it comforting in a strange way.
> Eternal peace. I find it comforting in a strange way.
I feel the same way.
But I didn't always feel that way. It took time, a lot of anxiety, a bit of meditation, some drugs, and reading philosophy to get me to the point where I no long really fear death. Sure, the process of dying itself can still be scary, because of the potential for pain. But I'm not really afraid of what comes after.
For OP or anyone else reading this dealing with similar death anxiety: I'd recommend a combination of therapy, philosophy, and some meditation. Psychedelics help some people, but they can also make it worse, so I'd be really careful unless you have a guide that you trust.
The anxiety / fear / angst is a state that arises in your brain and body, as part of the survival instinct. It can also malfunction and kick into a much higher gear. It's possible to sort of re-wire your brain in such a way that it no longer responds to the idea of death in the same way. Your brain shapes your reality, and it's possible to change how you perceive and respond to things. It can just take some work, and maybe some therapy and medication in some cases.
I feel the same way.
But I didn't always feel that way. It took time, a lot of anxiety, a bit of meditation, some drugs, and reading philosophy to get me to the point where I no long really fear death. Sure, the process of dying itself can still be scary, because of the potential for pain. But I'm not really afraid of what comes after.
For OP or anyone else reading this dealing with similar death anxiety: I'd recommend a combination of therapy, philosophy, and some meditation. Psychedelics help some people, but they can also make it worse, so I'd be really careful unless you have a guide that you trust.
The anxiety / fear / angst is a state that arises in your brain and body, as part of the survival instinct. It can also malfunction and kick into a much higher gear. It's possible to sort of re-wire your brain in such a way that it no longer responds to the idea of death in the same way. Your brain shapes your reality, and it's possible to change how you perceive and respond to things. It can just take some work, and maybe some therapy and medication in some cases.
I've actually thought of something that sort of comforts me when I think about death. Our brain is just a mix of chemicals interacting with eachother. When we die, our brain starts to decompose. This changes the chemicals in our brain. At some point, we go from being a being that knows the difference between itself and everything else to being nothing that doesn't know the meaning of self and non-self. We sort of meld into everything else. We lose our identity and become part of everything.
It's all sort of hand wavey but it seems beautiful to me. Kind of like an Alan Watts vibe.
Same. I really enjoying sleeping (i.e. being unconscious) and being dead would be the same.
You sound young.
You will change your thoughts as you age.
You will change your thoughts as you age.
31 years old here, and felt the same way that @koboll has felt for the past 10+ years. I don't know how old I have to get for that view to change, but if I could take an immortality pill I'd do it in a heartbeat.
You want to be immortal just to assuage your fear of dying? That seems like a bit of an overreaction.
Not really. I’d be immortal if I could.
I would consider it as well, but not because I'm afraid of dying.
Rather because I think I would enjoy being able to learn about more things.
Wanting to be immortal specifically to escape death seems odd to me.
Rather because I think I would enjoy being able to learn about more things.
Wanting to be immortal specifically to escape death seems odd to me.
Part of my fear of death is missing out on the future. Well I get to visit other planets? Will I get to see the resolution to quantum mechanics / relativity? Will I get to see extraterrestrial life? Will I get to see humanity spread among the stars?
I desperately want to see those things. And I'm extremely scared of missing out just because of how frail human bodies are.
I desperately want to see those things. And I'm extremely scared of missing out just because of how frail human bodies are.
Seems perfectly logical to me? I’d do it too. Getting tired of living and finding a way around immortality is a problem for future me.
If I can’t, then I’ll eventually go crazy and the effect is more or less the same.
If I can’t, then I’ll eventually go crazy and the effect is more or less the same.
Well this is why I say it seems like a bit of an overreaction.
I think you're trading in your fear of dying for a far bigger problem.
I think you're trading in your fear of dying for a far bigger problem.
31 is still quite young. The more people you see in a box, the less weird and terrifying the prospect becomes.
I have a fair amount of acquaintances who came to realize it is possible to do something about aging, not just sit and wait. Some of these fear death, many not, for those it's just a principled position they assume.
Maybe it's a generational thing.
Yes, youth is temporary, but given how much a person can happen to achieve during their youth, why shouldn't these achievements be related to research on aging and modulation of its aspects? I can't fathom how most webapps or adclick networks could be more important things to spend your youth on, than this noble project.
If our generation won't succeed, then our children, or their children's children will. At the very worst, we will leave a good foundation behind us. At the very best, we will be there in sound mind and body to meet them as equals.
Yes, youth is temporary, but given how much a person can happen to achieve during their youth, why shouldn't these achievements be related to research on aging and modulation of its aspects? I can't fathom how most webapps or adclick networks could be more important things to spend your youth on, than this noble project.
If our generation won't succeed, then our children, or their children's children will. At the very worst, we will leave a good foundation behind us. At the very best, we will be there in sound mind and body to meet them as equals.
I agree to a point, but immortality seems like the wrong solution. Being stuck in a life you _can't_ escape has the potential to be far worse than death.
Some time in my 40s I accepted death. I don't want it to be miserable but I am not afraid anymore of being dead. I think at some point you just notice that your body has seen its best days and life energy starts to diminish. My mom is in her 90s and she often says that she wants this to be over. She still has fun but feels that it's enough.
That’s nice though. I really hope to feel that way when I reach that age (and I hope to reach the age to start feeling tired of life in the first place).
I agree about growing weary about life is a noticeable trend, among the older relatives I know. Still, human beings are remarkably different. Some are driven by a single overwhelming emotion, like curiosity. To these, I can relate.
Observing different people in my vicinity, I can't help but wonder: why are they so different? Some are energetic, others are not, some are athletic, others are not. Some age faster, others age slower. I can't help but notice that there is some large heritable factor to it, and it waits to be discovered and studied in its fullness.
Observing different people in my vicinity, I can't help but wonder: why are they so different? Some are energetic, others are not, some are athletic, others are not. Some age faster, others age slower. I can't help but notice that there is some large heritable factor to it, and it waits to be discovered and studied in its fullness.
You’ve already experienced being dead for 13.8 billion years. And, it wasn’t so bad. Was it?
Dying looks like it’s probably not going to be fun. But, I’m not worried about being dead.
Dying looks like it’s probably not going to be fun. But, I’m not worried about being dead.
Not existing doesn't hurt, of course. But humanity is probably going to get up to a lot of cool shit we will miss out on.
We've experienced a lot of cool shit that our grandparents missed out on. It's not like progress ever stops.
This is a special way of being afraid
No trick dispels. Religion used to try,
That vast moth-eaten musical brocade
Created to pretend we never die,
And specious stuff that says No rational being
Can fear a thing it will not feel, not seeing
That this is what we fear—no sight, no sound,
No touch or taste or smell, nothing to think with,
Nothing to love or link with,
The anaesthetic from which none come round.
—Philip Larkin, Aubade
(italics original)
No trick dispels. Religion used to try,
That vast moth-eaten musical brocade
Created to pretend we never die,
And specious stuff that says No rational being
Can fear a thing it will not feel, not seeing
That this is what we fear—no sight, no sound,
No touch or taste or smell, nothing to think with,
Nothing to love or link with,
The anaesthetic from which none come round.
—Philip Larkin, Aubade
(italics original)
I see this logic a lot, and it doesn't quite sit right with me because it doesn't really address the actual problem, which is:
I'm not as afraid of being dead, so much as I am most afraid of the short time before. Knowing that I'm dying, that soon I will be dead.
And also the finality of it. Pre-birth ended with my birth. Death will never end.
I'm not as afraid of being dead, so much as I am most afraid of the short time before. Knowing that I'm dying, that soon I will be dead.
And also the finality of it. Pre-birth ended with my birth. Death will never end.
That's not quite right. If you can't be afraid of actually being dead because you won't be experiencing anything, then you in fact won't be afraid in the moments before, so there would be no reason to be afraid of the moments before either.
But you actually can be afraid of death, even though death doesn't come with any negative experiences, because you can and do care about things besides anticipated experiences. It's a common misconception that you can only care about experiences, but the counter to any conceptual argument that purports to prove that is that you do in fact care about some things that aren't experiences, death being a great example.
My friend Ronny discusses this at some length in this podcast https://clearerthinkingpodcast.com/?ep=032
But you actually can be afraid of death, even though death doesn't come with any negative experiences, because you can and do care about things besides anticipated experiences. It's a common misconception that you can only care about experiences, but the counter to any conceptual argument that purports to prove that is that you do in fact care about some things that aren't experiences, death being a great example.
My friend Ronny discusses this at some length in this podcast https://clearerthinkingpodcast.com/?ep=032
> Death will never end.
As far as we know. It seems logical based on our existing knowledge, but really, anything can happen.
Certainly we’ve never seen someone come back from the dead in recent history.
As far as we know. It seems logical based on our existing knowledge, but really, anything can happen.
Certainly we’ve never seen someone come back from the dead in recent history.
I don’t know why, but your comment seems pretty profound. Especially if you’ve ever looked at those timelines of the far future on Wikipedia where something like 10^10^10^10...........^10 quadrillion years will pass but a there’s a probability that a quantum fluctuation could create a new universe in that time.
The only thing we have in life is the present moment. So, the only thing we lose in death is the present moment.
I've heard of an actor who got so into role-playing, he forgot he was an actor playing a role.
He was meant to slay dragons, but terribly afraid of getting eaten in the process.
It kept him up at night, he asked people how to cope with the stress and got plenty of advice, to which he replied the suggestions don't address his actual problem.
He was meant to slay dragons, but terribly afraid of getting eaten in the process.
It kept him up at night, he asked people how to cope with the stress and got plenty of advice, to which he replied the suggestions don't address his actual problem.
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> There can't be anything worse than death. There just can't. Pretty much any amount of bad is preferable to infinite nothing.
During a particularly horrific drug trip, I realized that this is very much not true. I thought I was stuck in an eternal state of suffering, of which there was no escape. The level of suffering was indescribable, and the thought that it was going to continue forever was unbearable.
Now, I'm not really afraid of death. It's just the complete cessation of consciousness. Not that different from a deep, dreamless sleep. Infinitely preferable to that unceasing hell I thought I was stuck in.
During a particularly horrific drug trip, I realized that this is very much not true. I thought I was stuck in an eternal state of suffering, of which there was no escape. The level of suffering was indescribable, and the thought that it was going to continue forever was unbearable.
Now, I'm not really afraid of death. It's just the complete cessation of consciousness. Not that different from a deep, dreamless sleep. Infinitely preferable to that unceasing hell I thought I was stuck in.
What if we're in a simulation and getting to level 2 requires that one prefer consciousness not to cease upon death?
This just sounds like a version of Pascal's Wager.
Yes! It wasn't until I'd posted the question that I realised its aptness for today (Easter Sunday).
However I'm not saying people should believe in an afterlife. Rather I'm reflecting that not wanting there to be an afterlife could conceivably manifest as the flat belief that consciousness does not persist after death. And if I am the stupendous Creator running a simulation game for developing AGIs then, when it comes to selecting candidates for the next phase, the criterion of their wanting to persist might be the decisive one.
However I'm not saying people should believe in an afterlife. Rather I'm reflecting that not wanting there to be an afterlife could conceivably manifest as the flat belief that consciousness does not persist after death. And if I am the stupendous Creator running a simulation game for developing AGIs then, when it comes to selecting candidates for the next phase, the criterion of their wanting to persist might be the decisive one.
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It doesn't seem like such a big deal to me.
That we feel this way is what powers life, right? It's not an accident. It serves a function.
That we feel this way is what powers life, right? It's not an accident. It serves a function.
> It's not an accident. It serves a function.
The problem is when that function becomes counterproductive by filling you with so much anxiety about death that your ability to live your life is impeded. This happens to a lot of people.
In some ways, us humans are too smart for our own good. We have the amazing ability to mentally time travel, and the ability to understand concepts like our own deaths. These higher level brain functions can clash with more fundamental drives, like the survival instinct. For many people, this conflict can become crippling.
The problem is when that function becomes counterproductive by filling you with so much anxiety about death that your ability to live your life is impeded. This happens to a lot of people.
In some ways, us humans are too smart for our own good. We have the amazing ability to mentally time travel, and the ability to understand concepts like our own deaths. These higher level brain functions can clash with more fundamental drives, like the survival instinct. For many people, this conflict can become crippling.
It it wasn't for the fact that today/tomorrow is Easter, I don't think I would have responded like this to your comment.
Of course, everyone will have to make their own decision about whether this story is worthy of believing.
But, I feel I would be remiss if I did not point out that the whole point of Christianity, and especially Easter, is that Death is not the end. Christians believe that God who created the entire universe, took on human form. This man who was God in human flesh, Jesus, did all sorts of miracles. Finally, he was publicly executed by the Romans, and buried in a tomb. However, 3 days later, he rose from the dead!
That is what Christians all over the world are celebrating today! That death is not the end, that Jesus conquered death, and because he rose, if we trust in him, we will also triumph over death.
Death is no longer the feared end to everything, but rather just the doorway to enter into a an unimaginably more exciting and fulfilling life.
I don't think anyone captures that sentiment as well as CS Lewis in the final paragraphs of his book, The Last Battle:
"There was a real railway accident," said Aslan softly. "Your father and mother and all of you are—as you used to call it in the Shadow-Lands—dead. The term is over: the holidays have begun. The dream is ended: this is the morning."
And as He spoke He no longer looked to them like a lion; but the things that began to happen after that were so great and beautiful that I cannot write them. And for us this is the end of all the stories, and we can most truly say that they all lived happily ever after. But for them it was only the beginning of the real story. All their life in this world and all their adventures in Narnia had only been the cover and the title page: now at last they were beginning Chapter One of the Great Story, which no one on earth has read: which goes on for ever: in which every chapter is better than the one before.
Of course, everyone will have to make their own decision about whether this story is worthy of believing.
But, I feel I would be remiss if I did not point out that the whole point of Christianity, and especially Easter, is that Death is not the end. Christians believe that God who created the entire universe, took on human form. This man who was God in human flesh, Jesus, did all sorts of miracles. Finally, he was publicly executed by the Romans, and buried in a tomb. However, 3 days later, he rose from the dead!
That is what Christians all over the world are celebrating today! That death is not the end, that Jesus conquered death, and because he rose, if we trust in him, we will also triumph over death.
Death is no longer the feared end to everything, but rather just the doorway to enter into a an unimaginably more exciting and fulfilling life.
I don't think anyone captures that sentiment as well as CS Lewis in the final paragraphs of his book, The Last Battle:
"There was a real railway accident," said Aslan softly. "Your father and mother and all of you are—as you used to call it in the Shadow-Lands—dead. The term is over: the holidays have begun. The dream is ended: this is the morning."
And as He spoke He no longer looked to them like a lion; but the things that began to happen after that were so great and beautiful that I cannot write them. And for us this is the end of all the stories, and we can most truly say that they all lived happily ever after. But for them it was only the beginning of the real story. All their life in this world and all their adventures in Narnia had only been the cover and the title page: now at last they were beginning Chapter One of the Great Story, which no one on earth has read: which goes on for ever: in which every chapter is better than the one before.
Thanks for laying this out here like this.
There are lots of stories about immortality, life after death, or rebirth, and there isn't any particularly compelling reason to believe this one over any of the others.
I believe Christianity because I think this universe is broken and all the pain and suffering it includes cannot be good. I reject materialism because it requires a belief in matter for matter’s sake with no other first cause.
Other people of course can come to different conclusions.
Other people of course can come to different conclusions.
You can see as both as a way to bring solace to people so death doesn't looks so meaningless and as a way to justify suffering in this life because the next is so much better.
Two sides of the same coin, compassion and tyranny inextricably linked.
Unless you're not religious and then there is only either despair or acceptance -and this life is the only one we should cherish and fight for.
Two sides of the same coin, compassion and tyranny inextricably linked.
Unless you're not religious and then there is only either despair or acceptance -and this life is the only one we should cherish and fight for.
OP’s post resonates with me because I know I would feel the exact same way without my faith. I know it’s unfashionable these days to believe that faith and reason can coexist, but I’ve fought that battle for years and can only say my faith grows deeper and my love of reason grows stronger every year. I completely believe that we are the only species that feels existential dread, and it’s because we are designed in a special way for purpose and relationship. I’m not religious because it makes me happy, but nothing else has given me the tools to survive all the horrors life throws at you, and I hope other people can find that solid foundation too.
> I completely believe that we are the only species that feels existential dread, and it’s because we are designed in a special way for purpose and relationship
The alternative explanation is that there's a conflict between our high level of cognitive ability, giving us the power to imagine our own deaths and non-existence, coming into conflict with the baser survival instinct. Design is not a pre-requisite for the feeling of existential dread.
> nothing else has given me the tools to survive all the horrors life throws at you
I'm glad that religion has given you those tools you need, but religion also doesn't have a monopoly on them.
The alternative explanation is that there's a conflict between our high level of cognitive ability, giving us the power to imagine our own deaths and non-existence, coming into conflict with the baser survival instinct. Design is not a pre-requisite for the feeling of existential dread.
> nothing else has given me the tools to survive all the horrors life throws at you
I'm glad that religion has given you those tools you need, but religion also doesn't have a monopoly on them.
Everything goes in cycles. All things die and are reborn in some fashion. Not in the Buddhist sense necessarily, but you can't truly end something, just change it so it no longer resembles what it was. You're made of the same stuff as everyone else, and can change to anything. Being sad of losing what you are is only normal, but the alternative of being the same forever is much scarier.
It is said that death is impossible for humans to understand. We don't have a concept of 'nothingness.' We like to imagine being in some void.
More simply, I think we just cease to exist and don't feel anything. Just as you didn't exist before you were born, and so on.
My only fear of death is for my family. They depend on me for so much. So, I took out giant life insurance policies, and that gives me a weird comfort in it.
More simply, I think we just cease to exist and don't feel anything. Just as you didn't exist before you were born, and so on.
My only fear of death is for my family. They depend on me for so much. So, I took out giant life insurance policies, and that gives me a weird comfort in it.
> It is said that death is impossible for humans to understand. We don't have a concept of 'nothingness.' We like to imagine being in some void.
I think the closest we can get pre-death is the experience of being under general anesthesia. It's not a pit, or a void, or darkness. Just a complete cessation.
(Of course, this is assuming that general anesthesia does actually cause the complete cessation of all conscious processes, and not just the formation of memory. I don't know enough to say whether we're entirely certain about that.)
I think the closest we can get pre-death is the experience of being under general anesthesia. It's not a pit, or a void, or darkness. Just a complete cessation.
(Of course, this is assuming that general anesthesia does actually cause the complete cessation of all conscious processes, and not just the formation of memory. I don't know enough to say whether we're entirely certain about that.)
I agree, general anesthesia feels like the closest thing we can experience. It's a little startling to go under, only to instantly wake up a few hours later and realize you just lost those few hours without even a trace. When you're asleep at night, you don't lose the sense of time, but under general anesthetic it's completely gone.
But I totally understand your point about how maybe it's just the amnesia part, maybe you do experience time, you just don't remember. I had the same kind of experience when I had a endoscopy, and I know that I had to be semi-conscious to participate in the procedure, but the time was completely lost to me and seemed instant, just like a general.
But I totally understand your point about how maybe it's just the amnesia part, maybe you do experience time, you just don't remember. I had the same kind of experience when I had a endoscopy, and I know that I had to be semi-conscious to participate in the procedure, but the time was completely lost to me and seemed instant, just like a general.
Definitely somewhat conscious, for me. Last time I went under, the nurses said they had to hold me down and wondered who Charlotte was, because I kept mentioning her while fighting.
Charlotte was a datacenter I was concerned about at work, pre anesthesia.
Charlotte was a datacenter I was concerned about at work, pre anesthesia.
This is amazing. Did you tell them afterwards?
I didn't...but not on purpose. I was so out of it when I came to, I didn't even put two and two together. I just said I didn't know anyone named Charlotte.
It wasn't until the car ride home that someone asked me again that I was like...oh, no, Charlotte the city not the person.
It wasn't until the car ride home that someone asked me again that I was like...oh, no, Charlotte the city not the person.
I dunno. I think its like my last visit to the dentist with to get my wisdom teeth removed. I had some serious necrotic pain and had to get them removed. Horrible pain. I sat there and the tech shot something in my arm. I said to myself, "That did nothing." I woke up getting rolled out of the office in the wheelchair, remembering none of it. That's how I picture death will be. Remembering nothing.
Back in March 2016, I took a couple of swimming lessons. Starting from scratch, I learned enough to be able to cross the pool using a desperate and random sequence of arm/leg strokes.
I thought I knew enough to jump into the swimming pool in my apartment complex. It was a quiet evening, and I was the only person in the swimming pool. Without thinking too much, I jumped into the pool, started executing the weird moves, and managed to reach the middle of the pool. It was at that time that the horror began.
Suddenly, I realized that I was in the middle of this 8' pool (I am 6' and some change) and that the water was pulling me in. I felt really helpless, and at that moment, it struck me that I might be drowning. This was it.
I was 23, fresh out of college with a decent job, had a whole bunch of plans, and it was all going to evaporate just like that. I didn't get any flashbacks of the life I've had so far, but I clearly remember thinking that my parents will be really sad and that the travel plans I had for the next month will never materialize. I really did think that I was going to die. I screamed out for help, but there wasn't anyone around (and I might not have been making much sound).
Fortunately, I didn't give up, and something told me to keep moving my arms and legs. I felt that I was finally moving ahead. I gave it everything I had and grabbed a corner of the pool. I came out and ran back to my apartment. All of this took about ~20 seconds or less. Still, I could have been dead (later that night, I looked up the statistics for the number of deaths per year due to drowning in a swimming pool, and it was a non-trivial number, ~4000/year in the US IIRC).
So anyway, that incident changed my perspective of life and death altogether. I care about my life a lot, and I don't want to die, but something changed that day. I developed an urgency to get to things on my to-do list, because I realized that the lights can go off rather unceremoniously and without much notice. I also like to think that I'm less scared of death now, but who knows, really.
I don't suggest having a near-death experience to lose your fear of death, but maybe try not to overthink things not in your hand in general. Some things are just too random to worry about.
I thought I knew enough to jump into the swimming pool in my apartment complex. It was a quiet evening, and I was the only person in the swimming pool. Without thinking too much, I jumped into the pool, started executing the weird moves, and managed to reach the middle of the pool. It was at that time that the horror began.
Suddenly, I realized that I was in the middle of this 8' pool (I am 6' and some change) and that the water was pulling me in. I felt really helpless, and at that moment, it struck me that I might be drowning. This was it.
I was 23, fresh out of college with a decent job, had a whole bunch of plans, and it was all going to evaporate just like that. I didn't get any flashbacks of the life I've had so far, but I clearly remember thinking that my parents will be really sad and that the travel plans I had for the next month will never materialize. I really did think that I was going to die. I screamed out for help, but there wasn't anyone around (and I might not have been making much sound).
Fortunately, I didn't give up, and something told me to keep moving my arms and legs. I felt that I was finally moving ahead. I gave it everything I had and grabbed a corner of the pool. I came out and ran back to my apartment. All of this took about ~20 seconds or less. Still, I could have been dead (later that night, I looked up the statistics for the number of deaths per year due to drowning in a swimming pool, and it was a non-trivial number, ~4000/year in the US IIRC).
So anyway, that incident changed my perspective of life and death altogether. I care about my life a lot, and I don't want to die, but something changed that day. I developed an urgency to get to things on my to-do list, because I realized that the lights can go off rather unceremoniously and without much notice. I also like to think that I'm less scared of death now, but who knows, really.
I don't suggest having a near-death experience to lose your fear of death, but maybe try not to overthink things not in your hand in general. Some things are just too random to worry about.
In case it might save a life... there’s a technique [1] for survival where you exhale to remove buoyancy, sink to the bottom, and launch off the floor to get a gasp of air before repeating .
It’s arguably the first technique people should teach/master when learning to swim as an adult, as it’s the ultimate “fallback technique” in a situation like one you describe. It’s widely taught in the US Navy, but applicable in freshwater swimming, as well.
Drowning is indeed a shockingly common and particularly tragic way to die. Most multigenerational families personally know of at least one person that’s drowned, to put the statistic you shared in perspective. :/
[1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drownproofing
It’s arguably the first technique people should teach/master when learning to swim as an adult, as it’s the ultimate “fallback technique” in a situation like one you describe. It’s widely taught in the US Navy, but applicable in freshwater swimming, as well.
Drowning is indeed a shockingly common and particularly tragic way to die. Most multigenerational families personally know of at least one person that’s drowned, to put the statistic you shared in perspective. :/
[1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drownproofing
I was a kid, maybe 12 when I fell into a deep pool.
After a wave of profound panic, time slowed and I found myself able to think and did that method.
Worked.
When I got out of the pool, I rested for a very long time, just staring at that blue sky, my mind quiet.
I felt both detached, like I was not really here, and profoundly aware, senses tuned to the max, vivid.
Slowly, it all came together again, and the emotions washed over me, I wept.
Processing that event took a long time. I can tell you the will to thrive is something I cultivated.
The rest is sort of fear of fear. We need fear to survive and respond, but we also need to be present and for me it is a sort of detachment. Like a cold, do what I can core comes up and is in charge, until later, danger past.
A near car accident saw a similar thing happen much later in life, time slows and thought is action.
Like, nothing else matters. And to a person in those moments, maybe that is true.
While I write this, it may seem cool, or a boast.
It is not either of those. I feel messed up, like thrashed and it is all very unpleasant. Sometimes I feel like I should not be here, or that I had help, or got super lucky, or it was just not my time.
It will be. What then? Will that state not take hold, leaving only fear to remain?
All that said, yes! I have taught that method to others, just in case. I have no idea what compelled me to do it that day.
Why are some of us not so compelled?
After a wave of profound panic, time slowed and I found myself able to think and did that method.
Worked.
When I got out of the pool, I rested for a very long time, just staring at that blue sky, my mind quiet.
I felt both detached, like I was not really here, and profoundly aware, senses tuned to the max, vivid.
Slowly, it all came together again, and the emotions washed over me, I wept.
Processing that event took a long time. I can tell you the will to thrive is something I cultivated.
The rest is sort of fear of fear. We need fear to survive and respond, but we also need to be present and for me it is a sort of detachment. Like a cold, do what I can core comes up and is in charge, until later, danger past.
A near car accident saw a similar thing happen much later in life, time slows and thought is action.
Like, nothing else matters. And to a person in those moments, maybe that is true.
While I write this, it may seem cool, or a boast.
It is not either of those. I feel messed up, like thrashed and it is all very unpleasant. Sometimes I feel like I should not be here, or that I had help, or got super lucky, or it was just not my time.
It will be. What then? Will that state not take hold, leaving only fear to remain?
All that said, yes! I have taught that method to others, just in case. I have no idea what compelled me to do it that day.
Why are some of us not so compelled?
It's actually a really good technique that everyone should be taught in their first swimming lesson or at school, even if you don't do any swimming classes.
It's such an easy thing.
Now, next thing is to make learning to swim mandatory at all elementary schools.
It's such an easy thing.
Now, next thing is to make learning to swim mandatory at all elementary schools.
I’ve been doing this for fun (and rest) since I was 12 in swim team. I enjoy the feeling of controlling whether I float or sink, and launching off the bottom is less strenuous than treading water. I had no idea it was a Navy standard procedure.
I'm sorry if this comes across as crass (maybe you have a severe phobia) but to be clear, you panicked and thought you were going to die while at the halfway point of trying to cross a pool only 8 feet wide? even thrashing about should have been enough to get you across the remaining four feet to grab an edge, no?
Seems to be 8’ deep, not wide.
Yeah it was 8 feet deep (I mentioned my height for reference).
I don't have any phobia of water. In fact, a week after the incident I signed up for more swimming lessons (8 1:1 sessions) and I believe I'm a pretty decent swimmer now.
I was actually planning to start training for the Alcatraz swim but moved out of the Bay before that could happen!
I don't have any phobia of water. In fact, a week after the incident I signed up for more swimming lessons (8 1:1 sessions) and I believe I'm a pretty decent swimmer now.
I was actually planning to start training for the Alcatraz swim but moved out of the Bay before that could happen!
I am not afraid of death but afraid of painful death. I just want to go away
That's easily my biggest fear right there. Death, while inevitable, is a bitch. But a painful death, that's just cruel beyond words. I've had a couple of touch-and-go medical moments, and there have been instances where I wished for a quick and painless way to off myself. Not to use, but just as an option in case things got to that point.
I know exactly how you feel. If I really contemplate death -- not the act of dying, but of being dead, the infinite nothing, it takes my breath away. I strongly, strongly recommend you avoid thinking such thoughts at 2 AM, by the way.
Objectively, I know it won't hurt any more than before I was born, and it won't really be infinite nothing because to experience that I'd have to have consciousness, which I won't have. But it really is difficult for me to really grasp the concept of my own non-existence.
On a related note, sometimes I feel pangs of great sorrow when I look out on the world and realize I will one day not be able to experience this. Looking off into the hills, at the trees, the mountains, nature -- is so strikingly beautiful, that I can't imagine being deprived of it. Not exactly a rational fear, since again you can't feel the deprivation if you don't exist. But it strikes at odd times, just like grief for my dad, or my brothers, and in some ways it feels like shades of the same feeling.
Sorry I've got nothing witty to say, but you are definitely not the only person to have such thoughts. I hope you find a way to keep them from tormenting you too much. I've mostly managed to cure the 2AM habit of staring into the abyss, which is a step in the right direction.
Objectively, I know it won't hurt any more than before I was born, and it won't really be infinite nothing because to experience that I'd have to have consciousness, which I won't have. But it really is difficult for me to really grasp the concept of my own non-existence.
On a related note, sometimes I feel pangs of great sorrow when I look out on the world and realize I will one day not be able to experience this. Looking off into the hills, at the trees, the mountains, nature -- is so strikingly beautiful, that I can't imagine being deprived of it. Not exactly a rational fear, since again you can't feel the deprivation if you don't exist. But it strikes at odd times, just like grief for my dad, or my brothers, and in some ways it feels like shades of the same feeling.
Sorry I've got nothing witty to say, but you are definitely not the only person to have such thoughts. I hope you find a way to keep them from tormenting you too much. I've mostly managed to cure the 2AM habit of staring into the abyss, which is a step in the right direction.
I can relate.
For some of us, religion has answers. My wife's grannie lived long. She told us a bit too long!
The world sort of got away from her. Husband, friends, gone and yet she continues on.
One of her favorite things was to talk about her youth, how it all was. I recorded this for family to come and it gave her great comfort.
Near her end she was not in pain, but just tired. She would awaken and sometimes say, "Oh, I am still here. Ok then, can I get my hot tea please?"
She felt it was time to go home, where others had gone. She wondered why she was still here after so many close to her were already home, gone.
I am not religious, so none of that works for me. I wish it did sometimes.
I have lost people, some recently during this pandemic. I hate it. I hate that I too will be lost to someone to whom I matter.
Hate that an awful lot.
So far, nobody reports back, so this is it for us. I don't fear it as much.
I fear losing mine more than being among the lost.
I hate that lonely feeling when someone is dead, gone forever, no more, but for the parts of them they leave with others.
As I travel, I have come to value experiences, others, and what I can share with younger people, those parts of me that will endure.
Right now, I have balance. This is all OK. I know it will not endure, so I try hard to amplify the good and be present.
When my spouse or I die, the other will be tested hard. We married young and sharing this journey with someone is the best!
We may be here to help others thrive.
I fear neither of us will when our time here together ends. I fear that a lot.
For some of us, religion has answers. My wife's grannie lived long. She told us a bit too long!
The world sort of got away from her. Husband, friends, gone and yet she continues on.
One of her favorite things was to talk about her youth, how it all was. I recorded this for family to come and it gave her great comfort.
Near her end she was not in pain, but just tired. She would awaken and sometimes say, "Oh, I am still here. Ok then, can I get my hot tea please?"
She felt it was time to go home, where others had gone. She wondered why she was still here after so many close to her were already home, gone.
I am not religious, so none of that works for me. I wish it did sometimes.
I have lost people, some recently during this pandemic. I hate it. I hate that I too will be lost to someone to whom I matter.
Hate that an awful lot.
So far, nobody reports back, so this is it for us. I don't fear it as much.
I fear losing mine more than being among the lost.
I hate that lonely feeling when someone is dead, gone forever, no more, but for the parts of them they leave with others.
As I travel, I have come to value experiences, others, and what I can share with younger people, those parts of me that will endure.
Right now, I have balance. This is all OK. I know it will not endure, so I try hard to amplify the good and be present.
When my spouse or I die, the other will be tested hard. We married young and sharing this journey with someone is the best!
We may be here to help others thrive.
I fear neither of us will when our time here together ends. I fear that a lot.
These human experiences are part of what convinces those of us who are religious that there is an aspect of human experience that is not physical. We believe that deep fears and deep connections are evidence of a level of consciousness that goes beyond what other animals are capable of. Yes we do see instances of the animals displaying mourning for dead comrades or even mating for life, but those examples are noteworthy because they are the exception and because they appear to be human. If God has given humans a privileged place in the universe it gives our existence meaning and a hope after death.
We may well be connected in ways we do not understand well at all.
I have a high affinity with animals. They are far more capable and present than many of us recognize.
Here is an observation for you:
Communication. Higher order animals, and us humans have abstractions, and we humans have them deeper and to higher orders than we see, or can understand and relate to, in animals.
Animals live their story. How they move, where they place themselves, and vocalizations all speak to their mind.
They are like us, just simpler.
When animals are in a harmonious environment with one another, and humans who grok them, it is robust. There is joy, wonder, pain, play, love, comfort, nature, and a sense of being present in this world.
They have souls. While they may not burn as brightly as we may understand human souls do, they are unique as we are, travellers as we are.
I strongly question whether we are unique as beings in all this.
We are more complex, and can build on our understanding of one another and the world around us in ways animals do not because of that complexity.
Otherwise, we are all beings here.
What we can do suggests precisely nothing about what, if anything comes after death.
So far, nobody reports back, and we have no definitive record from anyone but us, here alone but for our furry companions.
Please, do not take that as some bad or negative statement to your faith. I simply do not share it, despite seeking it at times.
Like the animals, we are here for a time and that is all.
Or, should this all be a cycle or transitory state, it is for them too.
It may all be one body conscious, for that matter and it concentrates, ebbs and flows through beings of all kinds.
Nobody knows. Maybe we can know, and I hope so one day we do.
Take what comfort you can fellow traveler!
It is all anyone who walks this world can do.
And by all means, enjoy the ride, maybe leave it better than you found it
I have a high affinity with animals. They are far more capable and present than many of us recognize.
Here is an observation for you:
Communication. Higher order animals, and us humans have abstractions, and we humans have them deeper and to higher orders than we see, or can understand and relate to, in animals.
Animals live their story. How they move, where they place themselves, and vocalizations all speak to their mind.
They are like us, just simpler.
When animals are in a harmonious environment with one another, and humans who grok them, it is robust. There is joy, wonder, pain, play, love, comfort, nature, and a sense of being present in this world.
They have souls. While they may not burn as brightly as we may understand human souls do, they are unique as we are, travellers as we are.
I strongly question whether we are unique as beings in all this.
We are more complex, and can build on our understanding of one another and the world around us in ways animals do not because of that complexity.
Otherwise, we are all beings here.
What we can do suggests precisely nothing about what, if anything comes after death.
So far, nobody reports back, and we have no definitive record from anyone but us, here alone but for our furry companions.
Please, do not take that as some bad or negative statement to your faith. I simply do not share it, despite seeking it at times.
Like the animals, we are here for a time and that is all.
Or, should this all be a cycle or transitory state, it is for them too.
It may all be one body conscious, for that matter and it concentrates, ebbs and flows through beings of all kinds.
Nobody knows. Maybe we can know, and I hope so one day we do.
Take what comfort you can fellow traveler!
It is all anyone who walks this world can do.
And by all means, enjoy the ride, maybe leave it better than you found it
yeah but you won't even be around for the part where you don't exist or be aware of it, it'll be someone elses problem
> I'm afraid I might change my mind.
There's no reason to be afraid of your future self. He/she will do and decide what's good and right, with all the knowledge you earned up till know, plus anything to come. Why limit to your current self? ;-)
There's no reason to be afraid of your future self. He/she will do and decide what's good and right, with all the knowledge you earned up till know, plus anything to come. Why limit to your current self? ;-)
Well, that's a rather depressing view on life. I'm on the opposite side of this spectrum. This makes me a rather flegmatic person and perhaps the only thing that makes me at least somewhat worried is not doing enough during my lifetime. If you want to join the ranks of flegmatic people, I'd suggest to diversify your bookshelf with Plato, Hermes and Hesiod.
a friend's wife is a doctor and her "lights off, that's it" attitude has never sat well with me. I'm surprised to see it repeated so much in this section. for me, I cannot accept that these consciousnesses and shared reality are destroyed
I'm probably quoting someone somewhere sometime with "our bodies are vessels, driven by souls, enroute to infinity", but I think this is the closest approximation to what I mixedly believe about life and death
evidently we are unique in our animal kingdom for having this soul/consciousness, whether it be planted or evolved, created or random
I like to toy with the ideas among civilisations of the belief that their afterlife can be envisioned here on Earth, passing on to a pre-imagined place
I live in the hope that those I love are reunited in death, on some remote-but-familiar plane of existence. the problem with this is that memory must be preserved to some degree and transcribed, as it would be odd e.g. to reunite with my father in his infancy. but problems and their questions such as these rest more easily than the cliche answers to the broader "what happens when"
at first I was hesitant to quote Iron Maiden lyrics here but then remembered a discussion from the other week on rap music, and the beautiful refrain seems poignant, so here goes "I will hope, my soul will fly, So I will live forever. Heart will die, my soul will fly, And I will live forever."
I'd say I'm roughly half afraid, half curious about what will happen when I die, but will never be persuaded it is nothing, so long as I live..
ultimately hope, belief, and online pondering are of little value, just more locks on the door to the unknown
I'm probably quoting someone somewhere sometime with "our bodies are vessels, driven by souls, enroute to infinity", but I think this is the closest approximation to what I mixedly believe about life and death
evidently we are unique in our animal kingdom for having this soul/consciousness, whether it be planted or evolved, created or random
I like to toy with the ideas among civilisations of the belief that their afterlife can be envisioned here on Earth, passing on to a pre-imagined place
I live in the hope that those I love are reunited in death, on some remote-but-familiar plane of existence. the problem with this is that memory must be preserved to some degree and transcribed, as it would be odd e.g. to reunite with my father in his infancy. but problems and their questions such as these rest more easily than the cliche answers to the broader "what happens when"
at first I was hesitant to quote Iron Maiden lyrics here but then remembered a discussion from the other week on rap music, and the beautiful refrain seems poignant, so here goes "I will hope, my soul will fly, So I will live forever. Heart will die, my soul will fly, And I will live forever."
I'd say I'm roughly half afraid, half curious about what will happen when I die, but will never be persuaded it is nothing, so long as I live..
ultimately hope, belief, and online pondering are of little value, just more locks on the door to the unknown
Honestly I can’t understand this perspective, despite having come from a religious background and heard it many times.
When you turn your computer off the RAM is erased, the state is lost. Our brains are running on RAM.
Perhaps we have persistent, non-volatile storage too, but we have no way to access and continue running our conscious, outside of our brain.
There’s nothing to fear about that- it is the world we’ve always lived in, and the state after your brain stops processing is no different from the state of the universe before you were born.
When you turn your computer off the RAM is erased, the state is lost. Our brains are running on RAM.
Perhaps we have persistent, non-volatile storage too, but we have no way to access and continue running our conscious, outside of our brain.
There’s nothing to fear about that- it is the world we’ve always lived in, and the state after your brain stops processing is no different from the state of the universe before you were born.
the difference is that computers are manmade, they do not have a consciousness to wonder where they came from. we know how RAM works and that it was designed to forget. the bits that once flowed through them had a predefined source and destination. when they were volatile they were electronic in nature, but once discarded reduced to atoms and heat as exhaust
I agree there is currently no known way to transfer the state of a human brain, like there was no concept of RAM back when religions were started
I agree there is currently no known way to transfer the state of a human brain, like there was no concept of RAM back when religions were started
> evidently we are unique in our animal kingdom for having this soul/consciousness
Why do you say that? We have mountains of experimental evidence that animals of all kinds experience consciousness to a degree that rivals our own. We’re better at some forms of consciousness and they are better at others.
Why do you say that? We have mountains of experimental evidence that animals of all kinds experience consciousness to a degree that rivals our own. We’re better at some forms of consciousness and they are better at others.
while it's true animals can teach us a lot about ourselves, this obviously has a limit. I would rather believe alien beings interfered with a chimpanzee than the lowly animals could ever match our level of consciousness. when you start splitting consciousness into forms it just gets messier having to account for intelligence, emotions, empathy etc.
when I think of human consciousnesses and souls the first thing I notice is how unalike we are to other animals, it is uniquely human, and the comparison with other animals begins and ends there
when I think of human consciousnesses and souls the first thing I notice is how unalike we are to other animals, it is uniquely human, and the comparison with other animals begins and ends there
my perspective on this evolved over time to understand it in a comforting way.
Inside our bodies, cells are constantly dying, and new cells are returning in their place. Death isn't something that happens someday; it's something that is always with us. In this way, we see life and death aren't separate; they're the same thing. There is no "someday I'll be dead." There is only a continuum of change. A cloud in the sky doesn't spontaneously appear and vanish from existence by magic. It appears to be magic, but really we know it just changes forms. Existence and nonexistence are magical inventions of the human mind. Reality is beyond that.
So we have this concept of death as being in a dreamless sleep forever, but that's just a concept of the mind. Whatever we think death is, it's just a thought. Death is beyond thought and concept, so our understanding is forever inaccurate.
We talk about nothingness as if it's being locked up in any abyss. But where did the universe come from? Well, it came from nothingness. If that nothingness can birth a universe and reality, returning to that after death isn't so bad... you're just going home.
Inside our bodies, cells are constantly dying, and new cells are returning in their place. Death isn't something that happens someday; it's something that is always with us. In this way, we see life and death aren't separate; they're the same thing. There is no "someday I'll be dead." There is only a continuum of change. A cloud in the sky doesn't spontaneously appear and vanish from existence by magic. It appears to be magic, but really we know it just changes forms. Existence and nonexistence are magical inventions of the human mind. Reality is beyond that.
So we have this concept of death as being in a dreamless sleep forever, but that's just a concept of the mind. Whatever we think death is, it's just a thought. Death is beyond thought and concept, so our understanding is forever inaccurate.
We talk about nothingness as if it's being locked up in any abyss. But where did the universe come from? Well, it came from nothingness. If that nothingness can birth a universe and reality, returning to that after death isn't so bad... you're just going home.
> I'm pretty sure we're just meat sacks and when my heart stops beating that'll be the end of all that I am, and that scares the shit out of me.
Should one be "pretty sure"? I take it you are assuming that materialism is true, that the mind is ultimately dependent on a functioning physical brain for its existence, such that if the brain permanently ceases to function, the associated mind will permanently cease to exist.
But, what if some day, in the infinite future, random processes cause atoms to spontaneously reassemble into a working brain, and not just any working brain, but a proper continuation of your individual particular brain, in proper continuity with your last conscious moment before death? Would that not be a genuine personal afterlife? You can say the probability of such an event is unimaginably small, but can we say that it is absolutely zero? And if it is not absolutely zero, then given an infinite future, any event with non-zero probability will almost surely eventually occur, including that one. Following this line of thought, you can arrive at the conclusion that an afterlife is possible, maybe even likely, maybe even highly likely. But unlike religious conceptions of the afterlife, we cannot be confident that it will make any sense – it is just as likely (even more likely) to be the absurd hell of a solitary hallucinating Boltzmann brain [0] floating through the cold blackness of space, as the final triumph of the just and the good which the Abrahamic religions promise.
In an infinite universe, how certain can you really be that anything is ever permanent, including the cessation of one's existence? Faced with the potential infinity of the future, being certain, even just being "pretty sure", that any end is permanent seems to me to be having far more confidence than one rationally ought to have.
If the choice is between a religious afterlife which makes sense, and a non-religious afterlife of infinite absurdity, maybe we ought to hope that (some) religion is true?
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boltzmann_brain
Should one be "pretty sure"? I take it you are assuming that materialism is true, that the mind is ultimately dependent on a functioning physical brain for its existence, such that if the brain permanently ceases to function, the associated mind will permanently cease to exist.
But, what if some day, in the infinite future, random processes cause atoms to spontaneously reassemble into a working brain, and not just any working brain, but a proper continuation of your individual particular brain, in proper continuity with your last conscious moment before death? Would that not be a genuine personal afterlife? You can say the probability of such an event is unimaginably small, but can we say that it is absolutely zero? And if it is not absolutely zero, then given an infinite future, any event with non-zero probability will almost surely eventually occur, including that one. Following this line of thought, you can arrive at the conclusion that an afterlife is possible, maybe even likely, maybe even highly likely. But unlike religious conceptions of the afterlife, we cannot be confident that it will make any sense – it is just as likely (even more likely) to be the absurd hell of a solitary hallucinating Boltzmann brain [0] floating through the cold blackness of space, as the final triumph of the just and the good which the Abrahamic religions promise.
In an infinite universe, how certain can you really be that anything is ever permanent, including the cessation of one's existence? Faced with the potential infinity of the future, being certain, even just being "pretty sure", that any end is permanent seems to me to be having far more confidence than one rationally ought to have.
If the choice is between a religious afterlife which makes sense, and a non-religious afterlife of infinite absurdity, maybe we ought to hope that (some) religion is true?
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boltzmann_brain
after many many years of similar dread I came to this conclusion: I have been 'dead' for the past 13 billions years give or take, but then I have been incredibily lucky and won the 'consciousness lottery', that is, for a brief amount of time, just a flickering spark, I know what reality is, I experience what the Universe is, and carbon life on a still beautiful planet (hopefully we'll steer in the right direction), this to me outweights most of the fear... think how incredibly rare is conscious life, and you got super lucky to be aware of it, and yes the ride will end, but what a ride compared to a lump of carbon floating in the endless void forever. We are lucky.
[deleted]
Apples?
Another article written by a doctor giving an unromantic view of death:
https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/07/17/who-by-very-slow-decay...
I was particularly struck by this comment from one of the readers:
""" My grandmother has dementia to the point that she yells and moans the same thing non stop 24 hours a day, including the phrase, “please help me”. This is continuous except for 15 minute patches of sleep here and there as she no longer really sleeps just dozes. She weighs 90 lbs if that and is eggshell fragile screaming when touched due to degenerative muscle tears compounded by arthritis. Her bowels no longer work and she fluctuates between constipation, where the assistants administer a suppository, or she has explosive diarrhea that must be cleaned up which requires moving her excessively and thus more screaming and claims of pain. She is on peritoneal dialysis and has congestive heart failure with a pace maker, prior to loosing all capacities a few months back she was swallowing nitroglycerin like candy and up until she stopped walking entirely my mom was dragging her to doctors and what not. Even then moving was difficult and required wheelchairs and walkers. Her dialysis port is always sore and semi infected despite meticulous hygiene.
She has a raging UTI on a twice monthly basis though she is bathed by attendants and her diaper and garments changed regularly. She is on oxygen though she does not even move about to use oxygen as she can no longer stand nor even muster the strength to hold a sippy cup. She has forgotten how to eat or even swallow and still she is forced to choke down at least 15 pills per day and takes the occasional bite if food which she may stop chewing and allow to fall from her mouth. Her mouth is so dry the pills do not even dissolve when they lodge so she has to be coaxed and coaxed endlessly and given water in a dropper. She has round the clock private care to the tune of a few thousand per month. I had rather this money go to medical research or a non profit hospital. This team also includes a physical therapist which is useless. She is always freezing and has to be by a fireplace or heater or covered in layers of heated blankets so comfort is hard to achieve.
She is moved around like a doll with much ado and her screaming in pain which my mom would claim was from her dementia and not so much pain. Finally after months of this torture on her poor failing little body my mother is now considering hospice care mainly due to the cocktail of pain killers and anti anxiety pills no longer soothe her at all-I really have no clue why it has not stopped her heart. It has been surreal to witness this and I feel so bad for people who do not have the resources or loved ones for even this much relief if relief is what you call it. However I think my grandmother would have never considered euthanasia or absence of life saving measures if given a choice while she was cogent because she had an unhealthy fear of death even then.
The way we view death is really twisted and I fault religious nonsense with a lot of that phobia. Modern medicine, while mostly positive, can be grotesque because it can extend life past a semblance of life. I personally have had a living will made since this despite being young and can only hope we make strides in having physician assisted suicide legalized so people have options. """
https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/07/17/who-by-very-slow-decay...
I was particularly struck by this comment from one of the readers:
""" My grandmother has dementia to the point that she yells and moans the same thing non stop 24 hours a day, including the phrase, “please help me”. This is continuous except for 15 minute patches of sleep here and there as she no longer really sleeps just dozes. She weighs 90 lbs if that and is eggshell fragile screaming when touched due to degenerative muscle tears compounded by arthritis. Her bowels no longer work and she fluctuates between constipation, where the assistants administer a suppository, or she has explosive diarrhea that must be cleaned up which requires moving her excessively and thus more screaming and claims of pain. She is on peritoneal dialysis and has congestive heart failure with a pace maker, prior to loosing all capacities a few months back she was swallowing nitroglycerin like candy and up until she stopped walking entirely my mom was dragging her to doctors and what not. Even then moving was difficult and required wheelchairs and walkers. Her dialysis port is always sore and semi infected despite meticulous hygiene.
She has a raging UTI on a twice monthly basis though she is bathed by attendants and her diaper and garments changed regularly. She is on oxygen though she does not even move about to use oxygen as she can no longer stand nor even muster the strength to hold a sippy cup. She has forgotten how to eat or even swallow and still she is forced to choke down at least 15 pills per day and takes the occasional bite if food which she may stop chewing and allow to fall from her mouth. Her mouth is so dry the pills do not even dissolve when they lodge so she has to be coaxed and coaxed endlessly and given water in a dropper. She has round the clock private care to the tune of a few thousand per month. I had rather this money go to medical research or a non profit hospital. This team also includes a physical therapist which is useless. She is always freezing and has to be by a fireplace or heater or covered in layers of heated blankets so comfort is hard to achieve.
She is moved around like a doll with much ado and her screaming in pain which my mom would claim was from her dementia and not so much pain. Finally after months of this torture on her poor failing little body my mother is now considering hospice care mainly due to the cocktail of pain killers and anti anxiety pills no longer soothe her at all-I really have no clue why it has not stopped her heart. It has been surreal to witness this and I feel so bad for people who do not have the resources or loved ones for even this much relief if relief is what you call it. However I think my grandmother would have never considered euthanasia or absence of life saving measures if given a choice while she was cogent because she had an unhealthy fear of death even then.
The way we view death is really twisted and I fault religious nonsense with a lot of that phobia. Modern medicine, while mostly positive, can be grotesque because it can extend life past a semblance of life. I personally have had a living will made since this despite being young and can only hope we make strides in having physician assisted suicide legalized so people have options. """
Very sad story, sorry to hear it.
I don’t understand why this is downvoted. Maybe Due to the comment about religion, but I think it’s a fair remark.
From what I can tell, in my country - The Netherlands - it would never, ever get to this point.
We focus on quality of live, not quantity of life.
I don’t understand why this is downvoted. Maybe Due to the comment about religion, but I think it’s a fair remark.
From what I can tell, in my country - The Netherlands - it would never, ever get to this point.
We focus on quality of live, not quantity of life.
Dad was a radiologist, and I found it strange how he believed in the Catholic god. Irish dad I suppose. Strange how intelligent people can be so doggedly unintelligent when it comes to youth brainwashing.
I watched my wife go through similar things. Her stomach stopped working, and even with groundbreaking surgery and one of the top 10 gastroenterologists in the world at her side, nothing could be done. She tried to get treatments that she thought might help, until one day her GP just down the road finally told her what no doctor had the guts to say out loud: "you're dying."
That was a punch in the guts. That was late November 2019. She'd just turned 45. She went on hospice care just 4 months later. Hospice care was the best medical care she'd ever received. Finally she was in less pain (but still a lot of pain- starving to death is the opposite of pleasant). Finally able to have one on one care with a nurse who genuinely cared about her.
She passed away at home in February 2021 at 46 year old. Nobody tried to violently resuscitate her. Nobody stuck tubes in bad places. Nobody caused her more suffering in order to prolong her suffering. The green paper on the wall said so. One of my own biggest fears was having our home invaded by EMT's and police, with EMT's shattering her frail body to try to save it. But that never happened.
So, doctors have it right. Die in peace the old fashioned way, if possible.