I was the fastest girl in Connecticut. But transgender athletes made it unfair(usatoday.com)
usatoday.com
I was the fastest girl in Connecticut. But transgender athletes made it unfair
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2021/05/22/transgender-athletes-girls-women-sports-track-connecticut-column/5149532001/
67 comments
> Male-to-female athletes likely have an advantage over female athletes
There's no evidence of this.
EDIT: If you think trans athletes have an advantage try finding some trans athlete who demonstrates this.
There's no evidence of this.
EDIT: If you think trans athletes have an advantage try finding some trans athlete who demonstrates this.
s9w(1)
Dobbs(3)
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3
Conclusion:
"We have shown that under testosterone suppression regimes typically used in clinical settings, and which comfortably exceed the requirements of sports federations for inclusion of transgender women in female sports categories by reducing testosterone levels to well below the upper tolerated limit, evidence for loss of the male performance advantage, established by testosterone at puberty and translating in elite athletes to a 10–50% performance advantage, is lacking."
Conclusion:
"We have shown that under testosterone suppression regimes typically used in clinical settings, and which comfortably exceed the requirements of sports federations for inclusion of transgender women in female sports categories by reducing testosterone levels to well below the upper tolerated limit, evidence for loss of the male performance advantage, established by testosterone at puberty and translating in elite athletes to a 10–50% performance advantage, is lacking."
How hard would it be to base the categories on basic biology, like a chromosome test? It seems the current rules are crafted specially to be bend.
It also raises the question of sport’s universality. Telling appart men and wen isn’t even controversial in most of the world. Will there be a split at the international level between countries that use sex and those that use gender for making the two categories?
It also raises the question of sport’s universality. Telling appart men and wen isn’t even controversial in most of the world. Will there be a split at the international level between countries that use sex and those that use gender for making the two categories?
1) chromosome tests are useless. They set the original blueprint of what your body is, but if that original blueprint is ignored then they mean nothing.
2) As the original comment mentioned this completely fails for trans men. They are often physically stronger due to the higher presences of testosterone in the body.
3) For trans women this often fails because once sufficient time is spent on oestrogen testosterone levels drop to often below cis female levels. This causes a drop in muscle mass and can lead to the "bigger body, smaller engine" problem. Additionally with trans youth who have earlier access to puberty blockers and then earlier access to hormones they may never have gone through a traditional "male" puberty.
> Telling appart men and wen isn’t even controversial in most of the world.
This is a very bad statement in many ways. At best this is a confirmation bias. You notice the trans people who you notice, therefore you don't have a good barometer of who is trans and who isn't unless they tell you. I know plenty of trans people who you would never be able to recognize.
Even for non-trans people this can be very deceptive and is very cultural dependent.
2) As the original comment mentioned this completely fails for trans men. They are often physically stronger due to the higher presences of testosterone in the body.
3) For trans women this often fails because once sufficient time is spent on oestrogen testosterone levels drop to often below cis female levels. This causes a drop in muscle mass and can lead to the "bigger body, smaller engine" problem. Additionally with trans youth who have earlier access to puberty blockers and then earlier access to hormones they may never have gone through a traditional "male" puberty.
> Telling appart men and wen isn’t even controversial in most of the world.
This is a very bad statement in many ways. At best this is a confirmation bias. You notice the trans people who you notice, therefore you don't have a good barometer of who is trans and who isn't unless they tell you. I know plenty of trans people who you would never be able to recognize.
Even for non-trans people this can be very deceptive and is very cultural dependent.
When a fetus is exposed to testosterone ( as males are ) their physiology is fundamentally and unalterably changed.
All things lie on a spectrum: there's no binary "was exposed to testosterone in the womb", nor is there a binary "their physiology is changed or not". See, for example, https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/03/190318151730.h..., a paper which purports to show that females who shared a womb with males tend to have some of their life outcomes pushed towards the testosterone end of the scale.
I have to correct my original comment, it's actually the presence of the Y chromosome, and consequently the reaction of androgen receptors to testosterone in the womb that causes the physiological change on the male fetus.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_receptor#Effect_on_de...
This event early on in the embryo's development is tantamount to dividing males from females.
This event early on in the embryo's development is tantamount to dividing males from females.
physical sex is not as binary as people like to believe, even excluding trans people. for instance, having a y chromosome does not necessarily mean developing a male body.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_androgen_insensitivit...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_androgen_insensitivit...
[deleted]
The difference there is that female athletes do not choose to be female. A transgender person, according to your personal politics, may not choose to be transgender, but taking hormones for a sex transition therapy is a choice. Female athletes should not be punished with unfair competition for that choice of hormone therapy upon a biological male.
Trans people don't choose to be transgender. They choose to either deal with the almost certainly crippling gender dysphoria or to transition.
This thread was flagged almost immediately after it was created. Where is all the traffic to it coming from?
I ended up here from reading HN stories in an RSS reader.
Same. TheOldReader caught this before it was flagged. It's an unjustified flag IMO, but at least it came back from [dead].
The biggest problem with that is probably that there aren't enough trans people at the high school athletics level to form a local league. For something like running it is maybe realistic, but for any team sports it's definitely not. Basketball feels like an example where a single dominant player could change the outcome of a league, but you would still need like 10 kids per school minimum to field a team.
I think most trans men want to compete with the men anyway though, in fact the controversy with the FtM wrestler crushing a bunch of women a few years ago was because his conservative state wouldn't let him compete with the men.
IMO the men's league should be open to anyone that can make it, so the issue is really just who should qualify for the women's league - which presumably only those that identify as women would even try to. I would think the vast majority of people agree that a trans woman that just started hormones yesterday should not be allowed to compete with women, so there would have to be some restriction beyond just identity. Figuring out the specifics is tough though.
I think most trans men want to compete with the men anyway though, in fact the controversy with the FtM wrestler crushing a bunch of women a few years ago was because his conservative state wouldn't let him compete with the men.
IMO the men's league should be open to anyone that can make it, so the issue is really just who should qualify for the women's league - which presumably only those that identify as women would even try to. I would think the vast majority of people agree that a trans woman that just started hormones yesterday should not be allowed to compete with women, so there would have to be some restriction beyond just identity. Figuring out the specifics is tough though.
Exactly, we need three categories: M, W, ?. In ?, anything goes: Hormones, steroids, doping, etc. We can't let nature hold back sport.
We shouldn't separate by gender (which is irrelevant for sport performance using the "identify as" definition), but should simply use testosterone level: low, medium, high, based on highest level tested.
Testosterone level is completely unfair when hormones are actively manipulated.
In a simplistic sense.
It's unfair for both parties.
But one party made a choice and should therefore bear the unfair cost of their choice.
It's unfair for both parties.
But one party made a choice and should therefore bear the unfair cost of their choice.
Well said. There are endless times in life that we make choices and those choices close other doors for us. It's normal.
The idea that we have to shape the world to work with everyone's choices so no one has to deal with disappointment is ridiculous.
The idea that we have to shape the world to work with everyone's choices so no one has to deal with disappointment is ridiculous.
Any rational discussion about this topic had unfortunately lead to accusations of *phobia nearly instantly, without considering the content of the argument.
Or there are legitimate issues of transphobia surrounding this topic. This is used as a stick to beat trans people often ignoring the realities of the situation. How few trans individuals compete, how the ones that do don't generally operate at a higher level than statistically is likely. How the scientific evidence we have on the matter is limited and conflicted at best for people who are are on HRT. It additionally ignores how people on HRT often operate at lower levels than cis women do.
The issue is largely with youth not adults, yet every time the issue is brought out to attack adult trans people. Additionally this is somehow used to demonise trans people and that is then further used to limit access to puberty inhibitors which give trans youth more time to make decisions, and completely eliminate the actual problem with trans youth competing.
So the fact that this is the new favorite beating stick that transphobes use to attack trans people is probably why most people arguing this are called transphobes.
Flippant statements like yours then add to the issue because they try and dismiss the legitimate issues and nuances around this discussion and further lead to the voices of trans people being silenced, and the further attempts to restrict trans people's rights and access to health care.
The issue is largely with youth not adults, yet every time the issue is brought out to attack adult trans people. Additionally this is somehow used to demonise trans people and that is then further used to limit access to puberty inhibitors which give trans youth more time to make decisions, and completely eliminate the actual problem with trans youth competing.
So the fact that this is the new favorite beating stick that transphobes use to attack trans people is probably why most people arguing this are called transphobes.
Flippant statements like yours then add to the issue because they try and dismiss the legitimate issues and nuances around this discussion and further lead to the voices of trans people being silenced, and the further attempts to restrict trans people's rights and access to health care.
I'm sure there are transphobic people that jump on these discussions, but I don't see any connection between this issue and trying to limit access to puberty blockers? If anything using puberty blockers should help diminish any hypothetical advantage trans women have in women's athletics.
This affects 2 people.
DanBC(3)
My daughter was the fast kid from her school this year at 800m running at 2:27. The fast male from her school ran it at 1:57. That is an enormous difference. Female athletes cannot fairly compete against biological males in sprints.
Now give that male puberty blockers for several years and test testosterone levels before allowing them to compete and see the times they get.
Why artificially damage a promising athlete? This doesn’t make any sense to me.
How many trans people realize early enough in life (and have the parental support) to actually use puberty blockers?
There are a lot of parents out there making that choice for their young children right now so we should have more data in the next 5-10yrs.
You do realise it's not just the hormones at the point of competition that affect your performance? Males have a totally different skeletal structure to females. Especially around the hips. The difference in bone configuration gives male runners a massive advantage.
It's probably worth mentioning that this extends to the arms as well, whereby female arms are more "twisted" meaning they do not straighten as much as males'. This affects throwing, swinging, punching, etc. You know, the types of things you do in sports :)
I believe this is an evolutionary trait to aid in carrying babies...but please someone correct me on this if this is wrong (much like the hips have evolved for child-birth)
I believe this is an evolutionary trait to aid in carrying babies...but please someone correct me on this if this is wrong (much like the hips have evolved for child-birth)
Just compete with the guys. "But then I can't win a gold medal at the Olympics!" Yes, join the club. 99% of guys are also genetically excluded from the elite-elite of the any sport.
A thought experiment for the people who claim there is no advantage, let's look at the 800m world records:
Women (1:53,28 min):
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jarmila_Kratochv%C3%ADlov%C3%A...
Men (1:40,91):
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Rudisha
At the time of her world record, Kratochvílová basically looked like a man (draw your own conclusions about doping).
So I find it very hard to believe that a male record holder would drop below her record just by taking hormones.
Women (1:53,28 min):
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jarmila_Kratochv%C3%ADlov%C3%A...
Men (1:40,91):
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Rudisha
At the time of her world record, Kratochvílová basically looked like a man (draw your own conclusions about doping).
So I find it very hard to believe that a male record holder would drop below her record just by taking hormones.
why transphobia is so normalized?
This points out the absurdity of exactly two separate sports competitions for males and females. That's old fashioned binary thinking. Get rid of separate sports for males and females.
Instead, set up a lot more levels of each sports, and let each person compete at a level that makes sense for them, varsity, JV A, JV B, JV Z, club, intramural, etc.
I'm a male, and when I entered high school, I weighed 100 pounds. There was no way I could actually play on the football team. I could try, and sit on the bench, but that's all. I picked something else I could be good at. If they had a level with kids about my size, I still wouldn't have been that good, but I could have participated, got some exercise, improved, and had fun. And that's what sports should be about. All this focus on college scholarships twists the focus of sports around the wrong way.
Get rid of all college scholarships for sports for all men and women. Throw the whole college sports complex with million dollar TV deals and ticket sales out. Bulldoze the huge college stadiums and arenas. Turn them back into simple fields.
If you're really, really good at basketball, join the Overtime league, and make your way to the pros that way. But for the 99% of high school athletes who will never make it to the pros, add more levels, so anyone can participate, and bring back fun.
Instead, set up a lot more levels of each sports, and let each person compete at a level that makes sense for them, varsity, JV A, JV B, JV Z, club, intramural, etc.
I'm a male, and when I entered high school, I weighed 100 pounds. There was no way I could actually play on the football team. I could try, and sit on the bench, but that's all. I picked something else I could be good at. If they had a level with kids about my size, I still wouldn't have been that good, but I could have participated, got some exercise, improved, and had fun. And that's what sports should be about. All this focus on college scholarships twists the focus of sports around the wrong way.
Get rid of all college scholarships for sports for all men and women. Throw the whole college sports complex with million dollar TV deals and ticket sales out. Bulldoze the huge college stadiums and arenas. Turn them back into simple fields.
If you're really, really good at basketball, join the Overtime league, and make your way to the pros that way. But for the 99% of high school athletes who will never make it to the pros, add more levels, so anyone can participate, and bring back fun.
I don't know about bulldozing stadiums, but I agree about moving on from old-fashioned binary thinking. People are just people and the labels and categories that we assign to them are changing. Sports should reflect this too.
Does anyone actually care about this latest wedge issue that is manufactured to stoke a culture war?
Male-to-female athletes likely have an advantage over female athletes but a disadvantage over similarly aged males that aren't undergoing hormone treatments.
Female-to-male athletes are probably different again, probably less severe than the former case though but still creating an advantage over natural females and still at a disadvantage to male athletes.
No one likes to advocate for a special category but I think it might be the best option from a fairness perspective even if it's at odds with modern thinking on gender identity.