90 Hours a Week and Loving It(folklore.org)
folklore.org
90 Hours a Week and Loving It
https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=90_Hours_A_Week_And_Loving_It.txt&sortOrder=Sort+by+Date
70 comments
And this is why companies want passionate people. They work more for the same salary. And because they have that passion and love their job, they don't ask for more money, because it jeopardises the job they love.
This is why people in healthcare work long hours too, because they care about patients. And it's why salaries stay low, because of this passion.
This is why people in healthcare work long hours too, because they care about patients. And it's why salaries stay low, because of this passion.
because they love it
I'm glad the fetishization of longer hours to reach arbitrary deadlines is no longer as popular as it once was and beginning to receive pushback.
I don't know about the last couple of years, but listen to some startup pitches for hiring events (like on YC used to host) and phrases like "work hard, play hard", "we are a family", etc. creep in and basically push the same thing.
I often refer to one startup I was at as the worst experience (the manager was horrible - including griping at me for being off grid for my then wife's bday weekend), but most interesting (the technology was all over the map and there was a feeling of "how the hell is this actually working").
Never again.
I often refer to one startup I was at as the worst experience (the manager was horrible - including griping at me for being off grid for my then wife's bday weekend), but most interesting (the technology was all over the map and there was a feeling of "how the hell is this actually working").
Never again.
> we are a family
That is one is the most annoying.
That is one is the most annoying.
It's actually true if you interpret it as an abusive family. Boundaries aren't respected, always put company's interest above yours, if there's a culture problem (say harassment) it's actually the victim's problem, etc.
relevant bit from Tolstoy "...every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way"
Oh god I forgot how much that bullshit irritated me...
One team (your job is whatever we say it is)
You are an owner (we gave you fuck-all stock and lied that we're all gonna be millionaires when this IPOs)
Radical candour (prepare to be dressed down publicly, because all the best leaders do that: Besos, Jobs, Trump)
It's even better when they get the first letter from each of these little snippets of company philosophy and turn them into a word that then gets printed on swag baseball caps and t-shirts, and is roared by the cocaine fuelled CEO at the end of every weekly allhands.
One team (your job is whatever we say it is)
You are an owner (we gave you fuck-all stock and lied that we're all gonna be millionaires when this IPOs)
Radical candour (prepare to be dressed down publicly, because all the best leaders do that: Besos, Jobs, Trump)
It's even better when they get the first letter from each of these little snippets of company philosophy and turn them into a word that then gets printed on swag baseball caps and t-shirts, and is roared by the cocaine fuelled CEO at the end of every weekly allhands.
It still goes on.
The book 'One Device' about the iPhone has interviews with the original team who built it. They discuss how a number of them had marriages broken and whatnot from the pressure to build the iPhone.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/32603496-the-one-device
The book 'One Device' about the iPhone has interviews with the original team who built it. They discuss how a number of them had marriages broken and whatnot from the pressure to build the iPhone.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/32603496-the-one-device
Having a husband/wife who phones you up and says, "get home now, it's late" is a great thing. It might feel annoying at the time because you're "so close to getting this done!", but its a bad habit, and in those situations the work is rarely ever done. Quarter to quarter there's always gonna be a deadline. My wife always expected a high standard from me, ie: "I didn't marry an empty chair", and she was 100% correct.
There's still a fetishization of the hustle culture, but it seems a lot less popular than it used to be. Perhaps it's just because I'm getting older, and my friends are in more mature careers now.
Milestones are treated as property lines.
I've done 84/wk for the better part of a year. With commuting it was well over 90. Didn't bother me too bad at the time, but took a toll on my health and pretty much everything else in life. I wouldn't recommend it just for the health reasons if nothing else, but those other things that just didn't get done were important too. I'll also say that jobs are ephemeral, and there's really not much benefit to going all-in like that on any of them. Apart from larger amounts of cash in a shorter amount of time (and much higher tax burden), I have nothing to show now for that kind of dedication to my employer's cause. It's not like you'll learn more, you'll just work more and the job becomes your life.
I'm not sure how anyone does 84 hours a week of one thing. I mean 42 hours of programming plus 42 hours of physical work I could understand. Even then it's got to be tough. There must be something in the brain chemistry of people who can pull it off.
I've met a couple of people who worked like that and they seemed to be deluded about their own contribution. They were putting in the hours but they weren't productive.
> It's not like you'll learn more, you'll just work more and the job becomes your life.
I wouldn't do what you did but if you were doing any kind of intelectually demanding work it would be astonishing if you didn't learn more than people working 40 hours a week do. Double the hours is unlikely to lead to double the learning but 1.2x? 1.5x? Perhaps as an upper bound 1.7x?
I wouldn't do what you did but if you were doing any kind of intelectually demanding work it would be astonishing if you didn't learn more than people working 40 hours a week do. Double the hours is unlikely to lead to double the learning but 1.2x? 1.5x? Perhaps as an upper bound 1.7x?
I will say I was 100% dialed into the job. I could answer just about any question related to what I was working on and I knew the languages/platforms/domain better than anything I've worked with since. That could be a positive if something out of your control doesn't take it away from you and leave you hanging.
However, the law of diminishing returns definitely applied and my energy reserves were depleted within a few months, never having a chance to recharge. I recall towards the end I would catch myself sometimes just staring at the monitor for an hour or more, doing nothing. I also think this was a one-time shot for me—I lost something I can't get back and wouldn't have it in me to do this again.
In some video games you can deplete stamina, but permanent debuffs can drain max stamina. I like to think of it as the first happening, then eventually the latter.
However, the law of diminishing returns definitely applied and my energy reserves were depleted within a few months, never having a chance to recharge. I recall towards the end I would catch myself sometimes just staring at the monitor for an hour or more, doing nothing. I also think this was a one-time shot for me—I lost something I can't get back and wouldn't have it in me to do this again.
In some video games you can deplete stamina, but permanent debuffs can drain max stamina. I like to think of it as the first happening, then eventually the latter.
Sounds like it wasn't worth it but you learned a lot. Can't believe it took more than three months to reach "Am I depressed or is this burnout? Why not both?"
Putting in more hours is key in jobs where you need experiential learning / want to get proficiency.
e.g. doctors become good at their jobs after their schooling by seeing as many patients as possible / doing as many procedures
This becomes less important once you become proficient / put in your 10,000 hours.
e.g. doctors become good at their jobs after their schooling by seeing as many patients as possible / doing as many procedures
This becomes less important once you become proficient / put in your 10,000 hours.
There's also a national reckoning going on with sleep deprived early career people working their long hour residency hell too. Just because one field does it doesn't mean its a good practice at all.
[deleted]
I wonder if any of them saw any additional compensation for the time they spent and the sacrifices they made?
Also, right now I'm struggling to hit 40 hours a week, I wonder if I'll ever feel up to working those crazy hours again.
Also, right now I'm struggling to hit 40 hours a week, I wonder if I'll ever feel up to working those crazy hours again.
Some did, some didn't. Some got stock, some got bonuses. Almost everyone gained a reputation that benefited them greatly in endeavors post-Apple. Some fared very poorly. Burrell Smith has certainly dealt with a a lot of issues. It would be difficult for me to believe working in that environment was helpful in any way.
There's nothing wrong to work long hours if it's a choice and not a necessity. I've had colleagues who worked a lot simply because they loved their job. The only issue I have with them is that they raise the bar in the team and other people may have to keep up.
> if it's a choice and not a necessity
You described the problem yourself: given enough people making a particular choice, it becomes necessity for others. See two-income trap, for example.
So basically, it's okay for you as long as you're not a minority. Of course, it's better to be healthy and wealthy than to be sick and poor.
You described the problem yourself: given enough people making a particular choice, it becomes necessity for others. See two-income trap, for example.
So basically, it's okay for you as long as you're not a minority. Of course, it's better to be healthy and wealthy than to be sick and poor.
Why is it a trap? If someone wants to work twice as much for twice the pay, more power to them. And I am very sure there are people at my work who make more than me, regardless of how many hours I put in.
Not work twice as much put in twice as many hours. No one wastes as much time at work as someone who works 12/14+ hours a day.
Some people really are effective 12 hrs a day 7 days a week. I've seen it. It's rare, but not super rare.
Now imagine just how much more effective they would be with sane working hours
No, I mean there are people who are able to maintain very high output. Ie, each additional hour is a net positive.
Some people can run 100m in sub 10 seconds. It's rare. Some people can work very long hours with high productivity. It's annoying for the rest of us, but that doesn't make it false.
Some people can run 100m in sub 10 seconds. It's rare. Some people can work very long hours with high productivity. It's annoying for the rest of us, but that doesn't make it false.
This is true. A short lunch workout and a 1h siesta nap resets the brain.
(I definitely wouldn't recommend doing this working for someone else than oneself, or expecting anyone else than oneself to do it. And then not talking about it, so the others in your company don't know, and feel no such pressure)
(I definitely wouldn't recommend doing this working for someone else than oneself, or expecting anyone else than oneself to do it. And then not talking about it, so the others in your company don't know, and feel no such pressure)
But that is the crux of the problem, isn't it? The company loves such people, and it soon becomes the DNA of the place. The finance industry and Silicon Valley are emblematic of this malaise. It leaves no time for reflection, no white space to leave a considered life. People become hesitant to leave work early because of the optics.
I once saw an interview of a British trade union leader reply to a BBC journalist about his anger with immigrants. He said unions had battled for decades to work saner hours, to have time for football, to spend time with their friends and families, and for children to not work. They had got all this codified into law and labor practices, and now the immigrants were upending all this work by skirting laws and acceptable work practices
I once saw an interview of a British trade union leader reply to a BBC journalist about his anger with immigrants. He said unions had battled for decades to work saner hours, to have time for football, to spend time with their friends and families, and for children to not work. They had got all this codified into law and labor practices, and now the immigrants were upending all this work by skirting laws and acceptable work practices
Trusts and price-fixers usually get upset when competitors undercut them, but that doesn't make it a problem for anyone but them.
Well, choice doesn't bless the act. Consent doesn't magically make something okay. There's the issue of neglect, both of other duties and your own health. This would be the line between work ethic and workaholism. Work ethic is healthy, motivated by the right desires and motives. Workaholism is excessive, possibly escapist.
Leisure, in the original sense (see Josef Pieper), is also necessary and increasing drowned out by work and recreation. All of these are good things, but they have their place.
Leisure, in the original sense (see Josef Pieper), is also necessary and increasing drowned out by work and recreation. All of these are good things, but they have their place.
Hours may correlate somewhat with output, but it's diminishing returns.
We should optimise for productivity + life outside of work instead
I'm glad the "I work XX hours per week" bench is slowly dying out - fools gold.
We should optimise for productivity + life outside of work instead
I'm glad the "I work XX hours per week" bench is slowly dying out - fools gold.
> We should optimise for productivity + life outside of work instead
Says who? If you want to work 40 hours a week, have your weekends off, and relax more, that's great. You are optimizing for more time off than me as you value it more than I do; cool. However, if I want to work more than 40 hours a week and my total output ends up being higher than yours then I should absolutely be rewarded by my company for it. All things being equal, I should promote faster; I should get better raises; etc. You are optimizing for one thing, I am optimizing for another, and that should be fine.
Says who? If you want to work 40 hours a week, have your weekends off, and relax more, that's great. You are optimizing for more time off than me as you value it more than I do; cool. However, if I want to work more than 40 hours a week and my total output ends up being higher than yours then I should absolutely be rewarded by my company for it. All things being equal, I should promote faster; I should get better raises; etc. You are optimizing for one thing, I am optimizing for another, and that should be fine.
as an employer i value a healthy and balanced work ethic and a frienly and cooperative work environment.
personally i don't mind if you prefer to work more hours, but i'll be watching your performance. if it doesn't scale with the number of hours you put in then you'll have to cut down. also if i get any complaints from anyone else in the team. i can't have your performance demoralizing everyone else, because in the end it is the performance of the whole team that matters. i also won't be giving you extra opportunities for promotion or raises, because that would be unfair to others who can't work as much as you. again, doing so would be demoralizing for everyone else.
case in point, there is a company where anyone working more than 20 hours a week got reduced pay for those extra hours.
personally i don't mind if you prefer to work more hours, but i'll be watching your performance. if it doesn't scale with the number of hours you put in then you'll have to cut down. also if i get any complaints from anyone else in the team. i can't have your performance demoralizing everyone else, because in the end it is the performance of the whole team that matters. i also won't be giving you extra opportunities for promotion or raises, because that would be unfair to others who can't work as much as you. again, doing so would be demoralizing for everyone else.
case in point, there is a company where anyone working more than 20 hours a week got reduced pay for those extra hours.
>there is a company where anyone working more than 20 hours a week got reduced pay for those extra hours.
what company and in what country? that's a compelling idea, provided the pay is decent enough that one would only need to work 20hrs a week.
what company and in what country? that's a compelling idea, provided the pay is decent enough that one would only need to work 20hrs a week.
gumroad
they were featured on hackernews early this year:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25673275
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25686678
they were featured on hackernews early this year:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25673275
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25686678
[deleted]
That's totally valid and as an employer you are obviously entitled to set your work culture and select for the types of employees you want working for you. It sounds like I would be a poor fit for your org.
Some people like working, either they like the work, prefer it to alternative uses of their time, or like earning more money. Taking it as a point of pride or boast is no better or worse than people boasting about their hobbies or children or anything else (that is to say it can range from interesting to obnoxious depending on the setting).
I think we should stop caring about how others spend their time.
I think we should stop caring about how others spend their time.
Ye, how people spend their time should definitely be up to them
The problem arises, however, when overworking (or bragging about overworking) becomes part of the culture within a company
e.g. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56452494
The problem arises, however, when overworking (or bragging about overworking) becomes part of the culture within a company
e.g. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56452494
I didn't say anything about "overworking", and lots of problems (are alleged to) arise from lots of things, it doesn't always mean you can or should try to control them. That said,
> "The sleep deprivation, the treatment by senior bankers, the mental and physical stress… I've been through foster care and this is arguably worse," one respondent said in the survey, which has been seen by the BBC.
Seems like a lot more than just a culture of work going on there.
Working long hours and bragging about overtime is not uncommon in a lot of blue collar work too (maybe moreso). People can earn really good money working a lot of overtime, and it's great they can choose to do that. If a lot of people have the same mindset or it turns a bit competitive, there is nothing inherently wrong with that either. It is not at all the same thing as people being threatened by management or bullied by coworkers for refusing unreasonable working conditions.
> "The sleep deprivation, the treatment by senior bankers, the mental and physical stress… I've been through foster care and this is arguably worse," one respondent said in the survey, which has been seen by the BBC.
Seems like a lot more than just a culture of work going on there.
Working long hours and bragging about overtime is not uncommon in a lot of blue collar work too (maybe moreso). People can earn really good money working a lot of overtime, and it's great they can choose to do that. If a lot of people have the same mindset or it turns a bit competitive, there is nothing inherently wrong with that either. It is not at all the same thing as people being threatened by management or bullied by coworkers for refusing unreasonable working conditions.
Do you live to work or work to live? The former might get depressed if they can’t work as much, eg a researcher who is really interested in their topic.
Joshua Fluke [0] has a channel on youtube and he is talking about all these overwork inefficiencies and tricks companies pull to squeeze as much as possible from their employees. His channel has grown over time and he’s getting a lot of negative attention from exploitative CEO and he’s not shy about calling them out.
[0] https://m.youtube.com/c/JoshuaFluke1
It takes a special mindset to work that hard / that many hours at any company of which you aren't a majority owner.
A slavish one.
Andy Hertzfeld it's probably for UI /UX what Dennis Ritchie was to programming, he is a genius mad respect for him... but, even for that time, that hustle culture sounds too similar to a compulsive gambler justifying himself because of a winning streak.
I think Bill Atkinson is more deserving of that comparison than Andy, and Andy Hertzfeld has been one of my heroes since I was a teenager. Hertzfeld is a brilliant engineer, but he had less to do with UI/X issues. Atkinson came up with the menubar, drag-and-drop, and a host of other GUI fundamentals that are seen as self-evident nowadays.
Definitely agree about the culture, though. The Mac group loved what they were doing, but that was not a healthy or sustainable way of working.
Definitely agree about the culture, though. The Mac group loved what they were doing, but that was not a healthy or sustainable way of working.
[deleted]
Finance team meeting: We could give them more share options... well... hmm.... nah. T-shirt!
Water bottles, hats, shirts.
Team: "What are we accelerating to meet?" PM: "Just because, do I need to talk to your manager?" Team: ... PM: goes home at normal hours
Team: "What are we accelerating to meet?" PM: "Just because, do I need to talk to your manager?" Team: ... PM: goes home at normal hours
My eyes were opened to the "real world" when I worked with a project manager who made the company a lot of money and was paid a lot. He didn't deliver any software. It was purely about finding out all the ways the customer had tripped on the contract.
>>nah. T-shirt!
>>Water bottles, hats, shirts.
Or worse. 'Recognition'. A piece of paper on which they write your name, call it a certificate and give it to you when the team claps for you. Fast forward 5 years, most of your colleagues from back, who moved on, don't even remember your name.
There is no dearth of people who go great extents working insane hours for things like 'appreciation emails' and 'recognition certificates'.
>>Water bottles, hats, shirts.
Or worse. 'Recognition'. A piece of paper on which they write your name, call it a certificate and give it to you when the team claps for you. Fast forward 5 years, most of your colleagues from back, who moved on, don't even remember your name.
There is no dearth of people who go great extents working insane hours for things like 'appreciation emails' and 'recognition certificates'.
Yep. My favorite was the standard rotation for employee of the quarter or whatever.
I used to overwork pretty badly. This was mainly because I like what I do for a living.
However, I am in a position now where I can work 80 hours one week and disappear for a while to balance it out.
I try to make the most of the "flexible work schedule" and "unlimited time off" without shortchanging my employer, and I am grateful that they trust their employees enough to allow me to do so.
However, I am in a position now where I can work 80 hours one week and disappear for a while to balance it out.
I try to make the most of the "flexible work schedule" and "unlimited time off" without shortchanging my employer, and I am grateful that they trust their employees enough to allow me to do so.
People used to work longer than 40h/week before the industrial revolution[1].
But as a programmer, even 40h/week is unrealistic.
I only get somewhere between 2-5 hours of real work done per day (as a freelance dev). Depending of where I am in the week. Mondays are great because I'm well-rested, but by Friday, I'm less able to put long hours.
Anyone has an idea why it's expected that programmers work similar shifts as less creative/deep jobs?
[1] https://bebusinessed.com/history/history-40-hour-workweek/
Edit: I avoid doing pretty much any kind of work on Sundays. And Saturdays are a mix of work and play.
But as a programmer, even 40h/week is unrealistic.
I only get somewhere between 2-5 hours of real work done per day (as a freelance dev). Depending of where I am in the week. Mondays are great because I'm well-rested, but by Friday, I'm less able to put long hours.
Anyone has an idea why it's expected that programmers work similar shifts as less creative/deep jobs?
[1] https://bebusinessed.com/history/history-40-hour-workweek/
Edit: I avoid doing pretty much any kind of work on Sundays. And Saturdays are a mix of work and play.
Before the industrial revolution people would only work for like 6 hours a day or so. Romans would start at dawn and end around noon before the heat of the day. A lot of workers would be seasonal, and there also weren't many jobs that even took place at night or could reasonably be done under candlelight to begin with. Artificial light and a factory that can run 24 hours 365 days a year changed that. It wasn't until after the industrial revolution that we got labor laws that enshrined the 40 hour work week in many places, because it was at this point in human history that capital finally had the technology to make labor work for 24 hours of the day and instantly exploited this.
You're right. It was by the industrial revolution that people started working longer hours, and because of that industrial revolution, we had to adjust to a more humane 40h / week.
I can't edit my post now, but thanks for the correction.
I can't edit my post now, but thanks for the correction.
I'm extremely glad I don't work 90h/week, nor have I ever had to (my contract says 40h/week and that's usually how much I work - if I do overtime (rare) I usually get to adjust for that on a different day).
However, I'm not very invested in my work, and I genuinely wish I could work in a team with such esprit de corps and shared sense of purpose as the original Mac team.
I wonder if the two can only ever be had as a package deal.
I.e. if you are so invested in your work (probably a good thing, all else being equal), does it inevitably end up expanding beyond 40h/week (probably a bad thing, all else being equal)?
However, I'm not very invested in my work, and I genuinely wish I could work in a team with such esprit de corps and shared sense of purpose as the original Mac team.
I wonder if the two can only ever be had as a package deal.
I.e. if you are so invested in your work (probably a good thing, all else being equal), does it inevitably end up expanding beyond 40h/week (probably a bad thing, all else being equal)?
On your last question, I think it does end-up expanding.
I currently avg. 90hrs a week at 1/3 the pay than my last one that scored better X times on many metrics.
However, although quite draining from many aspects, I enjoy it more and am kinda more happier.
I currently avg. 90hrs a week at 1/3 the pay than my last one that scored better X times on many metrics.
However, although quite draining from many aspects, I enjoy it more and am kinda more happier.
I've always been involved in things that require intense periods of work (recording an album, directing a movie, writing my own startup's software) and I really enjoy it. I cannot imagine doing that much work for someone else though. When you are working for yourself on something you are passionate about, it truly does not feel like work at all. The old saying is true.
Back then, they loved to give their souls to a new machine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Soul_of_a_New_Machine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Soul_of_a_New_Machine
[deleted]
Hey boss, you're paying me $100/hour, but I'll work twice as much! Now you'll only be paying me $50/hour, and the best part is that I'm loving it!