Packages dumped in wrong lobby, resident tried harder to correct it than Amazon(cambridgeday.com)
cambridgeday.com
Packages dumped in wrong lobby, resident tried harder to correct it than Amazon
https://www.cambridgeday.com/2021/11/11/with-30-packages-dumped-in-the-wrong-lobby-resident-tried-harder-to-correct-it-than-amazon/
213 comments
What's interesting to me is that Amazon fights very hard if it is their items.
I have only every gotten one package stolen, and it was Amazon store brand Presto paper towels, a value of ~$30. Because it was Amazon brand, I got transferred three times, they flat out said that for their products they need to investigate. They created a case number and had me call back in a week.
Other people I know, and even in this thread talk about how trivial it is for a return. Apparently Amazon only cares about lost packages if they have to actually eat the cost.
I have only every gotten one package stolen, and it was Amazon store brand Presto paper towels, a value of ~$30. Because it was Amazon brand, I got transferred three times, they flat out said that for their products they need to investigate. They created a case number and had me call back in a week.
Other people I know, and even in this thread talk about how trivial it is for a return. Apparently Amazon only cares about lost packages if they have to actually eat the cost.
At Amazon's scale, it's not worth it to close the loop on every abandoned delivery worldwide.
I once got a parcel delivered, but the driver was confused as the same tracking number was on two parcels. Amazon had printed an extra label and stuck it onto another package. He just had me pick one of the two.
I picked wrong, and ended up with some window treatments that Amazon refused to collect. I reordered my stuff (which likely went back to Amazon as undeliverable anyway) and that was that.
Amazon just writes it off as a business expense.
I once got a parcel delivered, but the driver was confused as the same tracking number was on two parcels. Amazon had printed an extra label and stuck it onto another package. He just had me pick one of the two.
I picked wrong, and ended up with some window treatments that Amazon refused to collect. I reordered my stuff (which likely went back to Amazon as undeliverable anyway) and that was that.
Amazon just writes it off as a business expense.
So the FBA seller's going to bear the cost of courier mistake? This doesn't make sense.
As someone that’d dabbled in FBA I don’t think it’s how it works either. It’s 100% amazons fault and one of the main reasons to do FBA - having Amazon deal with logistics. That said it might be different these days.
yes, they class it as carrier delay and charge the seller
been going on for a while.
The reimbursements never actually happen
https://www.reddit.com/r/AmazonSeller/comments/9d9owl/a_ton_...
https://www.reddit.com/r/AmazonSeller/comments/9d9owl/a_ton_...
I’ve had Amazon deliver my packages to the wrong address.
This is why I wish they were required to take a picture of all deliveries.
That way I could contact them, have them pull up the picture of the wrong house, and have them compare that to all the other pictures of all the other deliveries.
Then it would be a lot easier to make them either send a new one to the right address, or they have to go to their misdelivered address and pick up that package so that they can send it to me.
Sigh….
This is why I wish they were required to take a picture of all deliveries.
That way I could contact them, have them pull up the picture of the wrong house, and have them compare that to all the other pictures of all the other deliveries.
Then it would be a lot easier to make them either send a new one to the right address, or they have to go to their misdelivered address and pick up that package so that they can send it to me.
Sigh….
> The customers will tell Amazon they never received the items. Amazon will replace them free.
Why does this remind me of that old Firefly episode where they steal the medicine from the Alliance hospital. They justify that "the Alliance will have it replaced by the end of the day".
Why does this remind me of that old Firefly episode where they steal the medicine from the Alliance hospital. They justify that "the Alliance will have it replaced by the end of the day".
Firefly is a show about the bad guys, written by somebody who doesn't realise they're the bad guys.
I watched it because I played the awful board game. "This game is awful" I said but the guy who'd bought it insisted it was great because it was so like the TV show. Watched the show, checks out, they've precisely imitated the show's "I don't deserve to suffer the inevitable consequences of my own actions. I am the protagonist in my story so the rules shouldn't apply to me" attitude.
I watched it because I played the awful board game. "This game is awful" I said but the guy who'd bought it insisted it was great because it was so like the TV show. Watched the show, checks out, they've precisely imitated the show's "I don't deserve to suffer the inevitable consequences of my own actions. I am the protagonist in my story so the rules shouldn't apply to me" attitude.
It's the fictional counterpart to the statement that you see on Reddit and elsewhere after a violent riot, that it's no big deal that buildings and businesses got torched and looted because "insurance covers it".
Another note on this, I've had a few very thorny Amazon customer service issues in the past, and at a certain point I found the only solution was to email the CEO's office. I emailed `[email protected]` and CC'd `[email protected]` (Bezos) and `[email protected]` (Dave Clark, head of consumer). Got a response nearly instantly from an extremely helpful executive assistant who was empowered to do basically whatever and was a single point of contact moving forward. Even offered to hop on a call and explain what went wrong on their end and how they were fixing it moving forward (an offer I politely declined). I got my issue resolved and a fairly generous gift card for my trouble.
Ah, the source of Jeff's famous "?"-mails. Believe me, you jump on those immediately. Good thing, at least back in my day, you could basically drop whatever else you were doing until the "?" was successfully answered.
I'll try this next time. I used to send certified letters to the CEOs when I had poor service. That usually worked too.
LinkedIn Inmail has been my go-to. Find a suitably high ranking staff member who is usually insulated from customers, and they're often shocked to hear real customer experiences.
Got Cc'd on an E-mail chain from the assistant to some senior VP at DHL once, where the threat that said SVP wanted updates magically caused a package that support had claimed was already on a freight ship across the Atlantic in the wrong direction back to the sender to turn up in a depot five minutes from my office.
Got Cc'd on an E-mail chain from the assistant to some senior VP at DHL once, where the threat that said SVP wanted updates magically caused a package that support had claimed was already on a freight ship across the Atlantic in the wrong direction back to the sender to turn up in a depot five minutes from my office.
Anyone know if an analogous exception path exists on ebay?
I'm currently getting screwed on a >$20k purchase and the ebay dispute resolution response has been idiotic -- basically demanding documentation from UPS that AFAICT isn't something UPS provides, when it wouldn't matter in any case (seller admits that the merchandise is currently in his possession).
It's taking an issue that reasonable people could resolve in ten minutes minutes and going to make it end up in litigation for no good reason.
(I posted a description on /r/ebay: https://www.reddit.com/r/Ebay/comments/qprepp/ebay_customer_... )
Maybe tossing people into a bureaucratic maze just makes them go away when it's a low value purchase, but that isn't going to happen in this case.
I'm currently getting screwed on a >$20k purchase and the ebay dispute resolution response has been idiotic -- basically demanding documentation from UPS that AFAICT isn't something UPS provides, when it wouldn't matter in any case (seller admits that the merchandise is currently in his possession).
It's taking an issue that reasonable people could resolve in ten minutes minutes and going to make it end up in litigation for no good reason.
(I posted a description on /r/ebay: https://www.reddit.com/r/Ebay/comments/qprepp/ebay_customer_... )
Maybe tossing people into a bureaucratic maze just makes them go away when it's a low value purchase, but that isn't going to happen in this case.
Read through the Reddit. Wild situation. The part of the seller including their number instead of yours seems pretty lame and should be enough to have you win the resolution. Good luck
I've had similar experiences with a building maintenance company. Some guy came into my apartment and completely misused my private property during his work. There was a note left at the building with a phone number left to reach the employee in question - but they didn't actually pick up the phone. I presume that it was because they had already finished work for that day. I just decided to look up the company information and called the CEO, who promised to make it up for me, and did.
I've tried to report scams and sellers who tried to bribe me to those email addresses and never got responses.
The scams and dishonest sellers are a feature, not a bug. Amazon still gets their cut whether or not you've been scammed.
Yep. They get to claim ignorance by not measuring or recording scams, and they get to profit from them, too. It's a win-win situation for them.
This sort of thing happens all the time at the apartment complex I live in (in the South Bay Area, California). We have an outdoor "mail room" with an automated package locker. I'm not sure if the package locker is usually full or simply hard for drivers to use, but often the delivery drivers will just leave a pile of like 30-50 packages next to it.
Honestly, I don't blame the drivers in the slightest. If I were treated the way they were treated and paid what they were paid, I wouldn't care about doing my job the right way either. Hell, they're so monitored by algorithms and surveillance devices that they probably don't have time to do it the right way even if they wanted to.
Things like this are going to keep happening and keep getting worse until the middle class/upper middle class realizes that our current lifestyle and access to "cheap" services is being held up by a systematically abused and underpaid labor force that isn't given the time, compensation, respect, or basic decency to support doing a good job.
This is Amazon/Bezos' fault, not the driver's.
Honestly, I don't blame the drivers in the slightest. If I were treated the way they were treated and paid what they were paid, I wouldn't care about doing my job the right way either. Hell, they're so monitored by algorithms and surveillance devices that they probably don't have time to do it the right way even if they wanted to.
Things like this are going to keep happening and keep getting worse until the middle class/upper middle class realizes that our current lifestyle and access to "cheap" services is being held up by a systematically abused and underpaid labor force that isn't given the time, compensation, respect, or basic decency to support doing a good job.
This is Amazon/Bezos' fault, not the driver's.
> until the middle class/upper middle class realizes that our current lifestyle and access to "cheap" services is being held up by a systematically abused and underpaid labor force that isn't given the time, compensation, respect, or basic decency to support doing a good job
Everyone knows this already - though the lowest rung is occupied by the undocumented, and no one wants to help them.
Everyone knows this already - though the lowest rung is occupied by the undocumented, and no one wants to help them.
>"until the middle class/upper middle class realizes that our current lifestyle and access to "cheap" services is being held up by a systematically abused and underpaid labor force"
They're not demented. They know it. They do not give a flying fuck.
They're not demented. They know it. They do not give a flying fuck.
There's no point in stopping consumption as an individual, but if there was a workers unionization movement to support or an organized consumer action such as a boycott...
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Some people do find that it feels good stopping consumption as an individual.
That's yet another consumer choice rather than an exertion of political will. The point of political ideas is to change reality, to exert will and make it manifest. Individual consumer choices absent a movement don't do diddly squat.
I agree. Just quibbling over the unqualified "there's no point".
OK. So what is to be done?
Support unions, vote for workers rights.
Then again, in the US it's very hard to focus your vote like this due to the two-party system. So... work on getting a better political system in place?
Then again, in the US it's very hard to focus your vote like this due to the two-party system. So... work on getting a better political system in place?
One party actually has advanced workers’ rights in recent decades.
Like the police union
There are unions that behave badly, therefore unions as a concept is broken and should be abolished.
Funny enough that logic never applies to corporations. If some corporations behave badly, murdering people, overthrowing democratically elected governments, kidnapping children, well, that's just how it is, we can't abolish corporations, even regulating them is criticized.
Unions help the small guy though, so those are okay to trash.
Funny enough that logic never applies to corporations. If some corporations behave badly, murdering people, overthrowing democratically elected governments, kidnapping children, well, that's just how it is, we can't abolish corporations, even regulating them is criticized.
Unions help the small guy though, so those are okay to trash.
IMHO the need for unions is a symptom of a poor political system (yes, this goes for my own country too, not US-bashing here). So yes they are broken and shouldn't _need_ to exist. That's a different argument though and I agree with your point.
Legislative and executive action to disincentivize the manufacturing of cheap (and less cheap) goods produced overseas and incentivize the revival of US manufacturing.
China is the reason Amazon is so big.
China is the reason Amazon is so big.
And who is going to pay for the goods most people would not be able to buy? You will relegate majority of the population to become destitute and may end up with a nice cozy revolt as the result.
Some industries may be able to get away with it and still be competitive - ones that can replace people with robots. This would cause mass layoffs though.
Decent guaranteed basic income could be a solution but something makes me think that North America would rather commit suicide than let people have something "for free" on large scale.
>"China is the reason Amazon is so big."
It was the decision of many US / other western manufacturers to outsource production to China. China was smart and used it to catapult itself from relative nobody to superpower it is today. The true reason is not China but a simple greed.
Some industries may be able to get away with it and still be competitive - ones that can replace people with robots. This would cause mass layoffs though.
Decent guaranteed basic income could be a solution but something makes me think that North America would rather commit suicide than let people have something "for free" on large scale.
>"China is the reason Amazon is so big."
It was the decision of many US / other western manufacturers to outsource production to China. China was smart and used it to catapult itself from relative nobody to superpower it is today. The true reason is not China but a simple greed.
For workers to fight for their rights / money. It is the only way. Owners will not out of blue get generous and decide to pay more money.
Move somewhere better. Or eat the rich.
> Move somewhere better. Or eat the rich.
"Move somewhere better" is the response of the (relatively) rich. It says "I'm OK with this problem, as long as I don't have to be near it." That's an OK position to take sometimes—we have to pick our battles, and can't right all the ills of the world—but it's not really taking a moral stand.
"Move somewhere better" is the response of the (relatively) rich. It says "I'm OK with this problem, as long as I don't have to be near it." That's an OK position to take sometimes—we have to pick our battles, and can't right all the ills of the world—but it's not really taking a moral stand.
I consider it the best chance of sending a message that might actually be heard.
call your Congressman?
So what am I supposed to do as the consumer? Where can I buy things where this won't be the case? For a few product categories, I sometimes have alternatives. Farmers market which is seasonal. I'm lucky to live in Portland which had a great local book store. Many other things I need regularly are much harder.
I'm curious what do you need to purchase regularly that you cannot pick up at a local store?
As dehrmann said in a parallel comment, sure I can pick up almost everything at local stores, but I don't believe that most of them treat their employees any better than Amazon does. That's why I listed farmers markets and our fabulous Powell's as alternatives where I'm pretty confident that employees get treated well or there aren't any.
Ah, I see I misinterpreted your comment, missing the key point that you are asking what local alternatives where employees are treated better.
I'm lucky that Fred Meyer (my preferred local retail store) is unionized.
More over, I tend to shop at mom & pop stores, if possible.
I'm lucky that Fred Meyer (my preferred local retail store) is unionized.
More over, I tend to shop at mom & pop stores, if possible.
Arrange for stuff to be delivered when you're there to receive it?
Sorry, I should have been cleared that I was referring to the part about the middle class waking up to the abuse of service workers. I'm pretty sure that many local stores treat their employees as bad if not worse than Amazon.
Delivery dates shift. Amazon's are doubly fluid. You might have to stay at home for a whole week have a reasonable chance of being there when the package deigns to be delivered.
I'm in the UK, I can have stuff delivered to my office, my home, a remote access anytime locker, a local store or a friend's house. I really don't have an excuse for someone not being there.
Maybe it's different where you are?
Maybe it's different where you are?
> This is Amazon/Bezos' fault, not the driver's.
You sure this is only Amazon, and not also USPS, FedEx, UPS, etc?
I'd sooner blame your apartment complex than delivery companies.
Anecdotally, I've had so few problems with delivery drivers, that I can't recall specific examples.
On the other hand, the amount of lousy experiences with apartment complex management companies and their policies would fill a long twitter thread.
For example, ordered computer equipment from Newegg. It was delivered to my apartment complex mail room, which closed at 5pm. I left work early to pick it up, only to find out that the staff had closed down and went home early (4:45p).
You sure this is only Amazon, and not also USPS, FedEx, UPS, etc?
I'd sooner blame your apartment complex than delivery companies.
Anecdotally, I've had so few problems with delivery drivers, that I can't recall specific examples.
On the other hand, the amount of lousy experiences with apartment complex management companies and their policies would fill a long twitter thread.
For example, ordered computer equipment from Newegg. It was delivered to my apartment complex mail room, which closed at 5pm. I left work early to pick it up, only to find out that the staff had closed down and went home early (4:45p).
At my building I’m pretty sure, given that every USPS package gets delivered to my mailbox, every FedEx and UPS package gets delivered to my apartment door, and like 25% of Amazon-delivered packages never show up or show up mysteriously a few days after they are marked as delivered.
FedEx maybe. UPS is unionized, I think they pay a fair wage.
until the middle class/upper middle class realizes that our current lifestyle and access to "cheap"…
Ahem, the society is not only middle and upper middle class, even (I believe) in US. These drivers themselves use Amazon and other “cheap” services, I mean do you realize they sometimes need to buy things too? That’s obviously not a counter argument to your conclusions, but something to account for before raising the prices.
Ahem, the society is not only middle and upper middle class, even (I believe) in US. These drivers themselves use Amazon and other “cheap” services, I mean do you realize they sometimes need to buy things too? That’s obviously not a counter argument to your conclusions, but something to account for before raising the prices.
> Its all your fault
BS. I didn't ask for the lockers, or even want them - because I knew what would happen. I've never signed up for Prime service for the same reason. Tell me again, how is anything my fault?
BS. I didn't ask for the lockers, or even want them - because I knew what would happen. I've never signed up for Prime service for the same reason. Tell me again, how is anything my fault?
> This is Amazon/Bezos' fault, not the driver's.
Agree.
> Things like this are going to keep happening and keep getting worse until the middle class/upper middle class realizes that our current lifestyle and access to "cheap" services is being held up by a systematically abused and underpaid labor force that isn't given the time, compensation, respect, or basic decency to support doing a good job.
Disagree. This is entirely the fault of yes-men/pie in the sky management at Amazon. Any manager with the slightest bit of autonomy at Amazon is making six figures and is willing to throw their employees under the bus for money. They will do literally anything to avoid admitting that a problem that exists that can be solved but will cause a KPI to go down. Absolutely no one is willing to go to bat for ideas that cause temporary productivity decrease but a quality and productivity increase over the long run as the company gets better at solving the problem.
Agree.
> Things like this are going to keep happening and keep getting worse until the middle class/upper middle class realizes that our current lifestyle and access to "cheap" services is being held up by a systematically abused and underpaid labor force that isn't given the time, compensation, respect, or basic decency to support doing a good job.
Disagree. This is entirely the fault of yes-men/pie in the sky management at Amazon. Any manager with the slightest bit of autonomy at Amazon is making six figures and is willing to throw their employees under the bus for money. They will do literally anything to avoid admitting that a problem that exists that can be solved but will cause a KPI to go down. Absolutely no one is willing to go to bat for ideas that cause temporary productivity decrease but a quality and productivity increase over the long run as the company gets better at solving the problem.
Btw. fun cultural difference: In some other countries it's not considered Ok to keep packages on front porches or next to mail boxes. Drivers in the Czech Republic would never leave package like that and hence it would be their mistake not Amazons/Bazoses.
Yeah this seems insane to mee too, also from central Europe. If it doesn't fit in your mailbox and you can't pick it up in person, you get a note to pick it up at the post office or you can choose to deliver it to a nearby gas station. Both of those will check delivery details and your photo ID before giving you the package (the latter charging you some change for the service).
Nobody here would even consider leaving it outside, despite our crime rate being waay lower than somewhere like the US, where people seem to be 100% fine with that idea.
Nobody here would even consider leaving it outside, despite our crime rate being waay lower than somewhere like the US, where people seem to be 100% fine with that idea.
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I've recently had one or two packages left in my recycling bin for paper/cardboard with a note from the driver saying they put it there. That was kind of a shock, because that's simply not done here in the Netherlands unless you have a personal understanding with the delivery driver.
It was also really uncomfortable because I definitely don't want delivery drivers walking anywhere around my house except for the path from garden gate to front door.
It was also really uncomfortable because I definitely don't want delivery drivers walking anywhere around my house except for the path from garden gate to front door.
In Sweden where I live, if it doesn't fit in your mailbox you'll have to pick it up somewhere.
In Germany a friend of mine told me that if they're not home at time of delivery Amazon's shipping partner will intentionally deliver to her neighbors, smaller city though but I guess culture is indeed different.
In Germany a friend of mine told me that if they're not home at time of delivery Amazon's shipping partner will intentionally deliver to her neighbors, smaller city though but I guess culture is indeed different.
>In Germany a friend of mine told me that if they're not home at time of delivery Amazon's shipping partner will intentionally deliver to her neighbors
It's quite common in Germany to accept parcels for neighbors - but that's also because in Germany, a lot of people live in flats in small-ish housing blocks where you know your neighbors. So, like 6-12 flats per house, not high-rises.
But we have the same problems in Germany as described in the article: especially Amazon's own drivers frequently just don't try to ring but instead just leave the boxes outside or just throw them into the hall.
The German postal system has pretty good public lockers, years before we got Amazon Lockers here. Used them a lot, but lately due to fragmentation of the delivery market and those DHL lockers being reserved for the postal system, I more frequently have to drive to some bar or kiosk to fetch my boxes when the sender chooses a different logistics partner.
It's quite common in Germany to accept parcels for neighbors - but that's also because in Germany, a lot of people live in flats in small-ish housing blocks where you know your neighbors. So, like 6-12 flats per house, not high-rises.
But we have the same problems in Germany as described in the article: especially Amazon's own drivers frequently just don't try to ring but instead just leave the boxes outside or just throw them into the hall.
The German postal system has pretty good public lockers, years before we got Amazon Lockers here. Used them a lot, but lately due to fragmentation of the delivery market and those DHL lockers being reserved for the postal system, I more frequently have to drive to some bar or kiosk to fetch my boxes when the sender chooses a different logistics partner.
This is the normal procedure in the Netherlands as well, for I think all-but-one of the package delivery services. If you're not home, delivery goes to one of the neighbours (could be 5-6 houses away if the driver already knows that that one is at home). Might not be common in the inner cities, but definitely in towns and suburbs. Good for social cohesion, as otherwise we wouldn't see most of these people for months at a time.
It's common to such a degree that many of the shipping forms on webshops have a dedicated field to indicate that you don't want this, though I've never felt the need to use this; definitely more convenient to walk over to the neighbours than to a pickup point.
It's common to such a degree that many of the shipping forms on webshops have a dedicated field to indicate that you don't want this, though I've never felt the need to use this; definitely more convenient to walk over to the neighbours than to a pickup point.
In Poland delivery drivers just call you and ask what do you want to be done with package. If you don't respond, package waits in delivery center. Phone number is typically required field.
I'm reluctant to bring COVID19 into this conversation, but the reason Sweden managed "OK" (In relation to how nonexistent our regulations were) is because we're "the most" (don't have source) isolated people in the world.
We don't talk to strangers, we don't have the kiss on the cheek thing, we stand in well formed distanced lines, we avoid interaction at "any cost".
I would love it if this delivery thing was the normal procedure in Sweden, it builds trust and relationships in your surroundings. These days unless you live in a teeny village you don't really know your neighbors, other than what car they're driving, so that you can buy a more expensive one with borrowed money next time.
Our national anthem says something like "I wanna live and i wanna die in the Nordics", yeah nah!
We don't talk to strangers, we don't have the kiss on the cheek thing, we stand in well formed distanced lines, we avoid interaction at "any cost".
I would love it if this delivery thing was the normal procedure in Sweden, it builds trust and relationships in your surroundings. These days unless you live in a teeny village you don't really know your neighbors, other than what car they're driving, so that you can buy a more expensive one with borrowed money next time.
Our national anthem says something like "I wanna live and i wanna die in the Nordics", yeah nah!
Handing a package to your neighbour at the door is really not a significant vector for infection with Covid19. You can easily keep a safe distance.
I think I didn't get my point through, it wasn't about covid but rather that we don't interact socially with people we don't already know / know through someone.
I agree that your solution is great.
I agree that your solution is great.
In the UK, delivering to neighbours is standard if the parcel doesn't fit through the mailbox. I'm surprised to hear that's not the case elsewhere?
I don't want my post delivered to my neighbour. I much prefer the system we have which sends me a text saying that the package has arrived at the nearest pickup point which is a supermarket within five minutes drive or a locker that is less than ten minutes walk away.
Also, my neighbours are no more likely to be at home than I am.
Edit: forgot to specify that this is in Norway.
Also, my neighbours are no more likely to be at home than I am.
Edit: forgot to specify that this is in Norway.
I think it depends on the delivery company. Amazon, Hermes, and DPD have been fairly good with that in my experience, Royal Mail have always made me go through the faff of a trip to the sorting office no matter what.
Oh yeah, Royal Mail are annoying for that, especially since the sorting office around here is in the middle of nowhere. Every other courier will try a neighbour though.
My wife and I used to live in a street where we were usually the only people at home during the day. All the delivery companies quickly realised we would take in anyone's parcels, so our living room was often like a mini sorting office!
My wife and I used to live in a street where we were usually the only people at home during the day. All the delivery companies quickly realised we would take in anyone's parcels, so our living room was often like a mini sorting office!
The main reason for this is not just a cultural difference, but a legal difference. Only the USPS can legally deliver to mailboxes. Otherwise, other services would definitely use them. There are, in some cases, other delivery services that ask their customer to have separate delivery boxes installed for their packages.
For example: https://img1.etsystatic.com/055/0/7471543/il_fullxfull.74786...
For example: https://img1.etsystatic.com/055/0/7471543/il_fullxfull.74786...
It's not this. Mailboxes in the American sense are uncommon in my country (most properties have a letter box, which is literally just big enough to fit a letter or small padded envelope through). Delivery companies still don't/(can't?) just leave it on a front step and call it delivered. If you're not there they'll maybe try deliver to your neighbours and failing that, send it back to their depot and either try another day or ask you to pick it up.
I didn’t say there wasn’t a cultural difference, I said it wasn’t just a cultural difference. Signing for packages also used to be common in the US too, that culturally started changing around the dot com bubble when e-commerce companies fought for customers’ approval. Because even big American mailboxes can’t legally receive even a small envelope from a courier, it has become culturally normal to have them left out. It is normal because it is universally done.
This implies that "things like this" are somehow bad, though.
What if abandoning entire cartons of merchandise, and then shipping replacements, just has plain-old higher ROI for Amazon, than does peeling a driver off their route to get those parcels fed back into the system for re-routing?
I know Amazon already don't bother to process their own returns, instead selling those off in bulk lots for potentially far below the market value of the items (sort of like creditors selling off bad debts rather than trying to collect on them themselves.)
Both situations suggest a paradigm where human labor is by far the most expensive part of any logistics process, such that margin can always be increased simply by replacing workflows that involve even a little bit of human labor with fully-mechanized/externalized workflows, even when that brings service quality down.
What if abandoning entire cartons of merchandise, and then shipping replacements, just has plain-old higher ROI for Amazon, than does peeling a driver off their route to get those parcels fed back into the system for re-routing?
I know Amazon already don't bother to process their own returns, instead selling those off in bulk lots for potentially far below the market value of the items (sort of like creditors selling off bad debts rather than trying to collect on them themselves.)
Both situations suggest a paradigm where human labor is by far the most expensive part of any logistics process, such that margin can always be increased simply by replacing workflows that involve even a little bit of human labor with fully-mechanized/externalized workflows, even when that brings service quality down.
> What if abandoning entire cartons of merchandise, and then shipping replacements, just has plain-old higher ROI for Amazon
Maybe it does, but isn't this because of a _negative externality_, i.e. the "indirect cost to individuals" (1) who deal one way or another with the pile of abandoned packages?
So Amazon is like an river polluter in that regard, dumping the problem because it's cheaper _for them_. It should be clear that this is not a net good thing.
1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality#Definitions
Maybe it does, but isn't this because of a _negative externality_, i.e. the "indirect cost to individuals" (1) who deal one way or another with the pile of abandoned packages?
So Amazon is like an river polluter in that regard, dumping the problem because it's cheaper _for them_. It should be clear that this is not a net good thing.
1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality#Definitions
I suppose in most cases, for most people, this would be a positive externality. You get free stuff. Amazon should just do a better job communicating this.
I've more than once got complete garbage through somebody getting hold of my shipping address (not credit card, just shipping address!) and exploiting Amazon using it.
I get 'free stuff' except it's absolute garbage. Somebody else gets to abuse Amazon reviews, hyping that stuff under my name for the purpose of jacking up its review scores. Once I looked and the thing was rated #1 in its category.
Don't assume you've figured out the true costs of externalities: anything that is clearly a broken system is also going to be harming people in its brokenness.
I get 'free stuff' except it's absolute garbage. Somebody else gets to abuse Amazon reviews, hyping that stuff under my name for the purpose of jacking up its review scores. Once I looked and the thing was rated #1 in its category.
Don't assume you've figured out the true costs of externalities: anything that is clearly a broken system is also going to be harming people in its brokenness.
The only time that I got someone else's amazon package, likely due to a labelling or packing error, it was utterly useless to me, I mean like "book 4 of an anime series that I had never heard of, not in a language that I understand" level of junk-ness (to me).
It's typically not "free stuff" to the recipient, it's junk, a hassle, and in the way.
It's typically not "free stuff" to the recipient, it's junk, a hassle, and in the way.
The "spam parcels" from review-brushing scams have negative externalities, yes; but, unlike regular spam, these spam parcels don't make up the majority (or even a non-negligible minority) of Amazon deliveries. So, on net, a random abandoned parcel pallet is going to have net-positive ROI to whoever claims it. Probably highly net-positive ROI.
(Compare: the liquidation stores that run entirely off of a business model of buying Amazon returns lots, tossing out the broken crap, and selling the rest. Those stores make a profit, and they're receiving pallets where half the stuff is unusuable. If they were receiving pallets where everything is new from the warehouse [valuable or not], they'd likely cry for joy.)
Remember, whoever gets this stuff doesn't have to personally have a use for it. They could just call up their local charitable thrift store to drive over and pick up the whole lot, if they wanted. But that's still net-positive ROI — they get a warm feeling of having donated a bunch of stuff; and the charitable thrift store gets a lot of free stock that they know how to resell, to turn into money for their charity; and a bunch of people who each wanted one particular thing, can now find it at that thrift store for much less than they would have paid for it on Amazon. It's exactly the same as if Amazon donated a bunch of random crap directly to the charitable thrift store, save for the necessity of making one phone call, and the possibility of the caller skimming whatever nice items they like off the top before they make that call.
(Compare: the liquidation stores that run entirely off of a business model of buying Amazon returns lots, tossing out the broken crap, and selling the rest. Those stores make a profit, and they're receiving pallets where half the stuff is unusuable. If they were receiving pallets where everything is new from the warehouse [valuable or not], they'd likely cry for joy.)
Remember, whoever gets this stuff doesn't have to personally have a use for it. They could just call up their local charitable thrift store to drive over and pick up the whole lot, if they wanted. But that's still net-positive ROI — they get a warm feeling of having donated a bunch of stuff; and the charitable thrift store gets a lot of free stock that they know how to resell, to turn into money for their charity; and a bunch of people who each wanted one particular thing, can now find it at that thrift store for much less than they would have paid for it on Amazon. It's exactly the same as if Amazon donated a bunch of random crap directly to the charitable thrift store, save for the necessity of making one phone call, and the possibility of the caller skimming whatever nice items they like off the top before they make that call.
All of these comments are from the perspective of a consumer rather than the perspective of the amazon employee (driver) who is likely poorly treated and paid. I doubt the driver is happy about their situation, is that positive?
Presumably the driver is as poorly treated and paid for delivering to the right address as to the wrong.
Minimally paid, so again probably not happy. You think people in low wage delivery jobs are doing it because they love delivering things? No, they likely don't have many other options, if any at all
> What if abandoning entire cartons of merchandise, and then shipping replacements, just has plain-old higher ROI for Amazon, than does peeling a driver off their route to get those parcels fed back into the system for re-routing?
This is the sort of situation which happens so infrequently that literally the solution is you ask whoever calls about it to "read me off the TBA number off the tracking label", look up which DSP was responsible, and tell them to divert someone to go pick those up. Any DSP worth its salt always has some number of drivers on rescue or, failing that, one of their dispatchers will go pick it up. In short: DSPs are incentivized to maintain personnel to handle problems on route, and this is exactly the sort of thing they can and should handle. Either way those packages are going to be marked missing/undelivered and the DSP will get dinged for that driver's fuckup, so they might as well send someone out to pick them up and get them properly delivered.
This is the sort of situation which happens so infrequently that literally the solution is you ask whoever calls about it to "read me off the TBA number off the tracking label", look up which DSP was responsible, and tell them to divert someone to go pick those up. Any DSP worth its salt always has some number of drivers on rescue or, failing that, one of their dispatchers will go pick it up. In short: DSPs are incentivized to maintain personnel to handle problems on route, and this is exactly the sort of thing they can and should handle. Either way those packages are going to be marked missing/undelivered and the DSP will get dinged for that driver's fuckup, so they might as well send someone out to pick them up and get them properly delivered.
> What if abandoning entire cartons of merchandise, and then shipping replacements, just has plain-old higher ROI for Amazon, than does peeling a driver off their route to get those parcels fed back into the system for re-routing?
Excuse me? There's like a pile of boxes in the way. Amazon should clean this up, quickly. So you say it's better that random people living there should be made responsible for getting rid of a pile of boxes instead of Amazon who put them there?
What if I "abandon" a sh*tload of poo in your front garden because that's cheaper for me?
Excuse me? There's like a pile of boxes in the way. Amazon should clean this up, quickly. So you say it's better that random people living there should be made responsible for getting rid of a pile of boxes instead of Amazon who put them there?
What if I "abandon" a sh*tload of poo in your front garden because that's cheaper for me?
You might be overreacting. This is free stuff for whoever picks it up - yes Amazon shouldn't be littering, yes it might inconvenience something but it isn't that bad.
This is someones property not "free stuff". Its theft if you take it. These packages will actually have names and addresses of the actual owners written on them so you can't even say you didn't know who the owners are.
No, in this workflow, Amazon generates a replacement package and sends that out for the recipient. The recipient is entitled to one item that they paid for—and that would be the replacement item. The original item is still owned by Amazon, who is free to declare it abandoned, and so property of whoever finds it.
Remember, these parcels aren't being sent through the postal system (where you legally release ownership of mail to the Postmaster General by sticking something in a mail slot, which is how it can be a federal offense to tamper with their mail—undelivered mail is the government's legal property!)
Instead, these are parcels going through Amazon's own logistics carriers. Amazon never released ownership of these items—they don't do that until the item hits the recipient's door. These items are legally Amazon warehouse stock, that happen to have shipping labels printed on them.
Remember, these parcels aren't being sent through the postal system (where you legally release ownership of mail to the Postmaster General by sticking something in a mail slot, which is how it can be a federal offense to tamper with their mail—undelivered mail is the government's legal property!)
Instead, these are parcels going through Amazon's own logistics carriers. Amazon never released ownership of these items—they don't do that until the item hits the recipient's door. These items are legally Amazon warehouse stock, that happen to have shipping labels printed on them.
I’m actually curious about the legality of this. Potentially those shipments contain personal information (from the invoice to the package contents). Is Amazon actually allowed to release them like that? Lost packages are one thing, but intentionally forgetting about them, idk.
It's still amazon's property until they deliver it I suppose, so charge Amazon rent.
In this case Amazon apparently advised the finders to open the boxes and donate the stuff. Sounds like free stuff to me.
Technically. Nobody is going to prosecute them for it if they just take it though. It is abandoned.
But Amazon isn't going to just abandon the people who bought stuff. They're going to get a different item. This is just Amazon signalling that it is cheaper to deliver a new item than to collect a lost item.
But Amazon isn't going to just abandon the people who bought stuff. They're going to get a different item. This is just Amazon signalling that it is cheaper to deliver a new item than to collect a lost item.
Though there are privacy considerations. You have the name and address of the person on a box that may contain something embarrassing or private.
What if abandoning entire cartons of merchandise, and then shipping replacements, just has plain-old higher ROI for Amazon
What if killing the natives just has plain-old higher ROI for an oil company than trying to work with them? What if operating an illegal taxi business just has plain-old higher ROI than following the laws in place? What if kneecapping the competition just has plain-old higher ROI for an ice skater?
What if killing the natives just has plain-old higher ROI for an oil company than trying to work with them? What if operating an illegal taxi business just has plain-old higher ROI than following the laws in place? What if kneecapping the competition just has plain-old higher ROI for an ice skater?
Those things are negative externalities. In this case, apartment buildings are receiving e.g. a carton of free new laptops that they could sell or donate. Yes, in some sense it's "littering", but it's not littering of valueless trash that costs more than it's worth to dispose of. It costs Amazon more than it's worth, but to pretty much any regular human being, it's like Amazon "littered" a stack of $20 bills in their apartment lobby.
And, because this stuff has value, it will very likely all get reused (i.e. resold or donated into the secondary market), not thrown away. Which will satisfy some of the demand for the products Amazon is selling, replacing an order someone would have made for a new product. Which means this act doesn't even have any externalities for the environment—nothing is going to landfill that otherwise wouldn't.
So I honestly don't get your comparison.
And, because this stuff has value, it will very likely all get reused (i.e. resold or donated into the secondary market), not thrown away. Which will satisfy some of the demand for the products Amazon is selling, replacing an order someone would have made for a new product. Which means this act doesn't even have any externalities for the environment—nothing is going to landfill that otherwise wouldn't.
So I honestly don't get your comparison.
Then killing natives, running illegal taxi businesses and kneecapping will happen.
If the government doesn't like it, then provide sufficient incentive not to do it.
If the government doesn't like it, then provide sufficient incentive not to do it.
What if killing senators and representatives offers higher ROI than complying with laws (or bribing the senators more than other companies are bribing them)?
Amazon's not the first one I'd look at for this, but still. At some point you have to look at how things actually function. Not unlike critical theory. You ask, 'this is the rule, what's it like in practice though?'
Amazon's not the first one I'd look at for this, but still. At some point you have to look at how things actually function. Not unlike critical theory. You ask, 'this is the rule, what's it like in practice though?'
> What if abandoning entire cartons of merchandise, and then shipping replacements, just has plain-old higher ROI for Amazon, than does peeling a driver off their route to get those parcels fed back into the system for re-routing?
It's not. Delivery works with a hub and spoke model. Simply get it back to the nearest local distribution point and it will be dealt with.
However, the loss just isn't tracked by Amazon. "Unable to recover packages due to atrocious processes" will be indistinguishable in their reporting to "van flooded/burnt, packages lost". So they don't see the problem and can't see any reason to fix it.
How I can tell - the customer service couldn't even figure out how much the packages were worth. No cost benefit calculation was performed.
It's not. Delivery works with a hub and spoke model. Simply get it back to the nearest local distribution point and it will be dealt with.
However, the loss just isn't tracked by Amazon. "Unable to recover packages due to atrocious processes" will be indistinguishable in their reporting to "van flooded/burnt, packages lost". So they don't see the problem and can't see any reason to fix it.
How I can tell - the customer service couldn't even figure out how much the packages were worth. No cost benefit calculation was performed.
Cost isn’t necessarily linear with complexity. And customer service wouldn’t be the ones tasked with those calculations. Amazon knows how many packages they lose in delivery once the intended recipient notifies them as such.
Letting people leave their scooters obstructing the sidewalk apparently has a higher ROI for Lime/Uber/Whoever than promptly collecting them, setting up docks, etc. The scooter riders seem to find it convenient, too. But it annoys this pedestrian.
Idk which your in, but FYI there’s a socal South Bay (south of long beach) and a NorCal South Bay (basically Silicon Valley.
Hope that prevents future confusion.
Hope that prevents future confusion.
tasogare(2)
> This is Amazon/Bezos' fault, not the driver's.
Well, in the case of your apartment complex and its package locker, it could be either/or. If it's an Amazon brand locker and they're just dropping the packages then chances are the locker was full and the app told them to just drop them there because that was a safe location. If it's a Luxor or some other offbrand locker then they either may not have codes needed to access it or they were trying to shave a few minutes off their time by just dropping everything in the lobby. That might sound horrible but when everyone is incentivized to piss in a bottle and not take their breaks in order to make their deliveries and nobody at corporate ever bothers to investigate then these sort of things are going to happen.
That being said...
> This is Amazon/Bezos' fault, not the driver's.
Yes. This is the correct answer. :D
Well, in the case of your apartment complex and its package locker, it could be either/or. If it's an Amazon brand locker and they're just dropping the packages then chances are the locker was full and the app told them to just drop them there because that was a safe location. If it's a Luxor or some other offbrand locker then they either may not have codes needed to access it or they were trying to shave a few minutes off their time by just dropping everything in the lobby. That might sound horrible but when everyone is incentivized to piss in a bottle and not take their breaks in order to make their deliveries and nobody at corporate ever bothers to investigate then these sort of things are going to happen.
That being said...
> This is Amazon/Bezos' fault, not the driver's.
Yes. This is the correct answer. :D
> If it's an Amazon brand locker and they're just dropping the packages then chances are the locker was full and the app told them to just drop them there because that was a safe location.
These were not dropped outside a locker at the intended delivery address; they were at the wrong address entirely.
These were not dropped outside a locker at the intended delivery address; they were at the wrong address entirely.
OK, then next question: Is the intended delivery address say one street over? Reason: Packages can only be dropped off if your device reports that you're within a certain radius of the delivery point. When navigating, crossing into the radius defined by that point (termed the 'geofence') is what pops up the button that says you've arrived at your destination. So imagine... you're a driver using the turn-by-turn directions on your device and it suddenly says you've arrived at your destination. So you grab the packages and head over to the building number listed on the packages... except someone put the point for the geofence at the wrong spot so the radius of the geofence extends to the next street over, causing drivers to stop on the wrong street and deliver to an address with the same building number.
Mind you, I'm not saying that's what happened here, but that's one possibility.
Mind you, I'm not saying that's what happened here, but that's one possibility.
> OK, then next question: Is the intended delivery address say one street over?
You don't need to ask me; it's in the article, starting with the first sentence:
> Amazon – the logistics expert the world has come to rely on for everything from groceries to furniture – abandoned an entire cart of packages meant for delivery to Forest Street in a Fernald Drive lobby on Wednesday. …
> Fernald, in Neighborhood 9, and Forest, in the Baldwin neighborhood, are a five-minute drive apart.
You don't need to ask me; it's in the article, starting with the first sentence:
> Amazon – the logistics expert the world has come to rely on for everything from groceries to furniture – abandoned an entire cart of packages meant for delivery to Forest Street in a Fernald Drive lobby on Wednesday. …
> Fernald, in Neighborhood 9, and Forest, in the Baldwin neighborhood, are a five-minute drive apart.
It probably depends on the location because here, we have an indoor locker room that requires a pass to enter. It always seemed like either the lockers are full either because there were a lot that day and/or people would leave the packages in the locker for days. Also, I noticed people would just give the address of the mailroom and probably did not sign up for the locker service.
In some countries, 'return' comes with another huge problem. A parallel hidden economy, led by corruption to swap them with old items and sell as new on same ecommerce platforms. Sometimes swapping only original parts.
Amount of money needed in managing 'authenticity/purity' of a return item is huge. From fake barcodes to fake packaging, everything is available at dirt cheap price. And ofcourse, the cheap manual labour in dire need of money.
Man, if amazon was telling them to just throw the packages out, I'd be inclined to bring them up to my suite and flip whatever's in them for profit. Amazon clearly has no interest in delivering them and have already deemed them "lost".
What's the law on this? Stack the boxes and toss the bin. An Amazon package is not technically considered mail, so if they leave the box on your step, refuse to retrieve it, isn't it finders keepers?
Amazon does thing issue #44957
Littering? Why is amazon not fined for this? If abandoning parcels is just "cost of doing business" then someone needs to step in and make it too expensive to still be worth it. Fine them for littering and/or the cost incurred by the building to rectify the situation. This might actually be something for small claims court. The building can pay to dispose of/deliver the packages and take Amazon to small claims to recover costs.
Same reason people with leafblowers aren’t fined for all the litter they blow off of private property into the public sidewalks and roadways. Because there isn’t enough political will to argue that what they’re doing is wrong, in the face of how desirable the convenience is to the electorate.
It probably doesn't meet statutes for littering. E.g.,
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio...
> As used in this section, “litter” means the discarding, dropping, or scattering of small quantities of waste matter ordinarily carried on or about the person, including, but not limited to, beverage containers and closures, packaging, wrappers, wastepaper, newspapers, and magazines, in a place other than a place or container for the proper disposal thereof, and including waste matter that escapes or is allowed to escape from a container, receptacle, or package.
They could make a law specifically for this type of dumping, Amazon would probably lobby against it and it would sway about zero voters, and the cost to enforce would probably be greater to the public than if they just dealt with it especially if these companies wanted to be uncooperative about it.
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio...
> As used in this section, “litter” means the discarding, dropping, or scattering of small quantities of waste matter ordinarily carried on or about the person, including, but not limited to, beverage containers and closures, packaging, wrappers, wastepaper, newspapers, and magazines, in a place other than a place or container for the proper disposal thereof, and including waste matter that escapes or is allowed to escape from a container, receptacle, or package.
They could make a law specifically for this type of dumping, Amazon would probably lobby against it and it would sway about zero voters, and the cost to enforce would probably be greater to the public than if they just dealt with it especially if these companies wanted to be uncooperative about it.
Fun littering factoid:
https://medium.com/knowledge-stew/when-nasa-received-a-400-f...
"Around July 19, 1979, the US space agency team that was in western Australia searching for debris was issued a citation for littering by the Esperance Shire Council in the amount of $400. Though the citation was in jest, the council hoped NASA would pay the fine as a gift for their museum. They didn’t pay. But the fine was finally settled on behalf of NASA in 2009 by a radio host named Scott Barley of Highway Radio when he got his morning listeners to donate the funds."
https://medium.com/knowledge-stew/when-nasa-received-a-400-f...
"Around July 19, 1979, the US space agency team that was in western Australia searching for debris was issued a citation for littering by the Esperance Shire Council in the amount of $400. Though the citation was in jest, the council hoped NASA would pay the fine as a gift for their museum. They didn’t pay. But the fine was finally settled on behalf of NASA in 2009 by a radio host named Scott Barley of Highway Radio when he got his morning listeners to donate the funds."
Why the fuck didn't NASA pay? Surely they can spare $400 for a joke?
Because then it will come up in a congressional hearing about NASA's budget as "proof" that NASA is spending US taxpayer money on "jokes".
Admission of liability. The next rocket might be far more dangerous, the next fine far more costly.
> Littering? Why is amazon not fined for this?
Asking someone to either throw the items away or keep them is the exact opposite of littering.
> This might actually be something for small claims court. The building can pay to dispose of/deliver the packages and take Amazon to small claims to recover costs.
Since Amazon told them they could keep the stuff or throw it away, they'd have to go to some elaborate lengths to actually suffer damages as a result of what Amazon did.
Asking someone to either throw the items away or keep them is the exact opposite of littering.
> This might actually be something for small claims court. The building can pay to dispose of/deliver the packages and take Amazon to small claims to recover costs.
Since Amazon told them they could keep the stuff or throw it away, they'd have to go to some elaborate lengths to actually suffer damages as a result of what Amazon did.
>> or throw it away
For a commercial enterprise, throwing something away is rarely free. And if there are electronics in those boxes, proper disposal might take more than a modicum of effort.
For a commercial enterprise, throwing something away is rarely free. And if there are electronics in those boxes, proper disposal might take more than a modicum of effort.
I expect even the judges in a small claims court get exasperated by having their time wasted over piddly shit. "Save me, I have to deal with the free stuff I just got from Amazon!" certainly falls into that category.
A few years ago a delivery driver dropped off an Amazon package for another town (but same street and house number as me). I contacted Amazon and they emailed me a return label and had UPS come pick it up.
Just dump them at the nearest Whole Foods. Let them sort it out.
This is the way. When a stupid company externalises their crap onto your lawn, you drop it right back into their laps.
How is dropping basket of free gifts for employees working particular shift at a local store an Amazon penalty?
Their boss will waste Jeff Bezos' time trying to find out how to return the stuff to Amazon, which is way better than you wasting your time.
The single phone call will go like this.
Store manager: So what do you want me to do with those packages.
minimum wage clueless phone support person staring at a support script: throw it in the bin.
Store manager to night shift employees: Gifts for everyone!
Store manager: So what do you want me to do with those packages.
minimum wage clueless phone support person staring at a support script: throw it in the bin.
Store manager to night shift employees: Gifts for everyone!
the store is owned by Amazon.
Whole Foods have Amazon lockers. They must have some system for dealing with unclaimed items.
Amazon's delivery is getting worse and worse. I just had my packages stolen by the driver. So after hours talking to customer service they refunded my money so I could rebuy them. Of course some of the items had gone up in price by then.
I rebought all the items and waited another week for them to be delivered, only to have them all stolen again by the driver.
Now I had to go through hours of talking to multiple agents again, them pleading with me to wait just a few more days in case it was a glitch, before I got a refund so I could again spend more money to reorder everything and wait yet another week for it to be delivered.
I rebought all the items and waited another week for them to be delivered, only to have them all stolen again by the driver.
Now I had to go through hours of talking to multiple agents again, them pleading with me to wait just a few more days in case it was a glitch, before I got a refund so I could again spend more money to reorder everything and wait yet another week for it to be delivered.
Amazon abandoned a five figure order of mine similarly and refused a reship. Was quite easy to cancel prime and never look back after that.
Okay, it sounds like the details might be interesting to hear on this one...
There are two apartment complexes in my small town with similar names (both contain the word Castle). That said, they have entirely different post codes (UK system) and my unit number doesn’t exist at the other complex.
I had ordered new M1 macs and monitors for some new workers, plus an order of some snacks I cannot get on the island. If I had to guess, likely 10-12 total boxes. Amazon swears up and down it was delivered. I provide multiple CCTV feeds of the delivery date, testimony of the two posties that the independent delivery agent (NOT Isle of Man Post, who does a superb job) left it at the other location despite being told by residents and their postie that it was for my complex. The door it was left near is who I suspect took the packages but I’ve no way of proving it as I cannot get CCTV for that location.
After months and months, Amazon ends up closing the matter and saying I need to pay for all new items if I want them shipped. I cancel prime and go ahead with having my credit card dispute the transaction. Amazon closes my account and tries to fight my dispute, despite my massive documentary evidence (that they were aware of) showing without a shadow of a doubt they made a mistake.
Funnily enough, I eventually caught one of the boxes (sans goods) in a recycle bin near my place (small town) and the shipping label, despite what was on my Amazon account, was indeed for the other complex (but my unit number and postal code). So it can’t even be blamed on an overworked delivery driver - it was all a cock-up on Amazon’s end.
I had ordered new M1 macs and monitors for some new workers, plus an order of some snacks I cannot get on the island. If I had to guess, likely 10-12 total boxes. Amazon swears up and down it was delivered. I provide multiple CCTV feeds of the delivery date, testimony of the two posties that the independent delivery agent (NOT Isle of Man Post, who does a superb job) left it at the other location despite being told by residents and their postie that it was for my complex. The door it was left near is who I suspect took the packages but I’ve no way of proving it as I cannot get CCTV for that location.
After months and months, Amazon ends up closing the matter and saying I need to pay for all new items if I want them shipped. I cancel prime and go ahead with having my credit card dispute the transaction. Amazon closes my account and tries to fight my dispute, despite my massive documentary evidence (that they were aware of) showing without a shadow of a doubt they made a mistake.
Funnily enough, I eventually caught one of the boxes (sans goods) in a recycle bin near my place (small town) and the shipping label, despite what was on my Amazon account, was indeed for the other complex (but my unit number and postal code). So it can’t even be blamed on an overworked delivery driver - it was all a cock-up on Amazon’s end.
...Hah. *Files away*
Did you grab a photo of the shipping label on the box that turned up? Mental drain notwithstanding, I theoretically wonder if you'd get a different response if you randomly cold-reopened the case with the new evidence. Sounds like the credit card dispute went through, in any case.
Reading this, I also thought briefly that it would be really cool to make a site for people to publicly file open-and-shut substantiated claims as a sort of "name and shame"... but of course enforcing submission quality would be impossible (firehose), and the majority of the "neat" cases would end up being fraud. Sigh. :(
TIL about the idea of having CCTV pointed at my front door and letterbox though. I've seen plenty of Ring clips at this point of "ha ha the delivery person yeeted the package in the general direction of the front door" but I never really thought that it makes it possible to be able to incontrovertibly go "...what delivery?". Definitely adding that to the todo list...
Did you grab a photo of the shipping label on the box that turned up? Mental drain notwithstanding, I theoretically wonder if you'd get a different response if you randomly cold-reopened the case with the new evidence. Sounds like the credit card dispute went through, in any case.
Reading this, I also thought briefly that it would be really cool to make a site for people to publicly file open-and-shut substantiated claims as a sort of "name and shame"... but of course enforcing submission quality would be impossible (firehose), and the majority of the "neat" cases would end up being fraud. Sigh. :(
TIL about the idea of having CCTV pointed at my front door and letterbox though. I've seen plenty of Ring clips at this point of "ha ha the delivery person yeeted the package in the general direction of the front door" but I never really thought that it makes it possible to be able to incontrovertibly go "...what delivery?". Definitely adding that to the todo list...
I did but they close any new account I open where I try to get any closure on it. TBH it wasn’t even about the money - but what if that happened to someone who couldn’t afford to be without their ordered items or to rebuy them? It was just bizarre and for no obvious reason.
It sadly sounds to me like Amazon have closed the internal case as suspected fraud. From that standpoint, I can (very cynically) see the reviewing agent looking at potential photos of the shipping label on the box and thinking "oh the person finally figured out what format we use and printed a label" or "oh they found a random box they're claiming as theirs" or something like that - ie, innocent until proven guilty because of the fraud flag, and the agent needs to meet their quota and their 30 second read of the situation is never going to warrant escalation, much less reversal. (Assuming Amazon industrial-scale micromanagement, I'm guessing there are penalties for escalations that don't prove to have been worth it - and this probably looks like one of those.)
I'm completely with you in terms of the cost being potentially ruinously significant. Yep, this is definitely a broken situation.
At the end of the day, I think the canonical solution with situations like this is to go viral on social media, as awkward as that is. Network effects and virality are unpredictable and it sometimes takes a while for things to take off, but if you've still got some mental energy left and motivation to seek closure, the data you've collected presents what appears to be a very open-and-shut case which will help to elicit a "wat, what gives" type response, and the relative cognitive simplicity/neatness of the case would very likely encourage knee-jerk sharing. I guess it would just be a question of figuring out how to summarize everything and where to put it - here? FB? Twitter? etc.
I'm completely with you in terms of the cost being potentially ruinously significant. Yep, this is definitely a broken situation.
At the end of the day, I think the canonical solution with situations like this is to go viral on social media, as awkward as that is. Network effects and virality are unpredictable and it sometimes takes a while for things to take off, but if you've still got some mental energy left and motivation to seek closure, the data you've collected presents what appears to be a very open-and-shut case which will help to elicit a "wat, what gives" type response, and the relative cognitive simplicity/neatness of the case would very likely encourage knee-jerk sharing. I guess it would just be a question of figuring out how to summarize everything and where to put it - here? FB? Twitter? etc.
I wish I hadn’t deleted my Twitter account and the related tweets so I could share with you the interaction I had on that platform regarding this situation. I was swarmed by those @amazon67284926728-type accounts that purportedly are workers (https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56581266.amp) who accused me of trying to grift off the company. Drove me off Twitter because the (obviously baseless) accusations were too voluminous to deal with whilst dealing with major health issues and running a business.
Agh. I see. Nice :/
There's a very minimal chance the Web Archive saved a view of your Twitter feed with the replies visible, and a similarly low chance the Tweet(s) ended up in an archive somewhere... that's still available. Yeah, this is definitely pushing it.
There's a very minimal chance the Web Archive saved a view of your Twitter feed with the replies visible, and a similarly low chance the Tweet(s) ended up in an archive somewhere... that's still available. Yeah, this is definitely pushing it.
Amazon delivered a laptop to my house that I never ordered, the address wasn’t even slightly similar and I have no idea why they dropped it on my front step. I reported it to them and they said the same.. just throw it out. Local law says I have to attempt to return to sender so I called again and double checked if they want me to do so, and that second support person said the same bit more openly said “throw it away, or do whatever you like with it, but you definitely don’t need to send it back”. I was pretty shocked that they don’t even care about items of that high a value. My kid loved her new laptop though.
> Amazon delivered a laptop to my house that I never ordered
Common scam here in Blighty where a "courier" later turns up to collect the laptop from you.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49450485
Common scam here in Blighty where a "courier" later turns up to collect the laptop from you.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49450485
Not this case... the address was wrong.
We got a few packages ($10-$50 each in value) delivered to us over the span of a couple of months. Not ordered by us.
Addresses were mailed out to: Jane Smith (my fiance) 1234 Our Apartment St, but lacking an apt#, yet they were still delivered to us at the front desk.
I check my credit card statements later and start seeing some unauthorized charges from Amazon. My card was not linked to my fiance's account. No idea what really happened here so I had to call the CC company to alert of fraud and cancel my card.
Addresses were mailed out to: Jane Smith (my fiance) 1234 Our Apartment St, but lacking an apt#, yet they were still delivered to us at the front desk.
I check my credit card statements later and start seeing some unauthorized charges from Amazon. My card was not linked to my fiance's account. No idea what really happened here so I had to call the CC company to alert of fraud and cancel my card.
hold it, don't you need to authorise those payments via a OneTimePassword (OTP? if a CC company can take your money without your authorization, then it is a very good way to scam people
In India, all such Credit Card purchase needs to be validated via OTP and PIN. Passwordless purchase is only possible for some cards and they require physical access to PoS machine and low purchase amount to work.
In India, all such Credit Card purchase needs to be validated via OTP and PIN. Passwordless purchase is only possible for some cards and they require physical access to PoS machine and low purchase amount to work.
With a credit card linked to an Amazon account there doesn't seem to be a need to acknowledge the transaction. It's weird, but it seems to work. I have no idea why Amazon gets to do that but every other store out there can't.
I don't know about the US, but here in the Netherlands I only get an OTP check once every 10 online cc purchases or so. The bank debit card gets an OTP check every time though.
ive heard a few stories of people getting high value (>$1k) shipped and nobody wanting it returned,. I dont get why there is not an exception policy for high value items. Im assuming these kind of "dont ship it back" policies are due to them not wanting to have to support a return infastructure. but if there is a steady supply of high value item returns/mis-shipments I would think it would be worth it. I think i remember reading that its US law that if something is delivered to you, its yours. maybe they dont wanna mess with that?
I guess I would would love to know why they dont want it back
I guess I would would love to know why they dont want it back
Given the sheer number of products they ship, yes, they don't and can't reasonably support returns for most things. It's one thing if you're returning a pair of pants that didn't fit. It's quite another if you're returning a laptop. The former you can more or less look over, verify it's still good merchandise, and restock it. The latter... is kinda asking a lot of their warehouse personnel.
Also, it helps to remember that many products are simply 'fulfilled by Amazon', not something Amazon stocks in itself. Thus, returns can incur additional restocking costs from having to reroute that product to the appropriate warehouse.
Thus, it makes sense that for some products that they just cannot reasonably verify the resellability of, or for products that are just plain too low margin to bother with, it makes sense to just tell people to 'keep it'.
That said, there's nothing to stop them from at least having the courtesy to call up the DSP that made the mistake, make them pick it up, and have them dispose of it. Make THEM bear the cost.
Hope that helps.
Also, it helps to remember that many products are simply 'fulfilled by Amazon', not something Amazon stocks in itself. Thus, returns can incur additional restocking costs from having to reroute that product to the appropriate warehouse.
Thus, it makes sense that for some products that they just cannot reasonably verify the resellability of, or for products that are just plain too low margin to bother with, it makes sense to just tell people to 'keep it'.
That said, there's nothing to stop them from at least having the courtesy to call up the DSP that made the mistake, make them pick it up, and have them dispose of it. Make THEM bear the cost.
Hope that helps.
> cannot reasonably verify the resellability
The merchant should always be able to verify that, be it for pants or complex electronics. Verifying a laptop hasn't been tampered with and reinstalling the OEM OS is easy.
> products that are just plain too low margin to bother with
The margin is irrelevant, the cost is what matters. Throwing away an item that cost 300k to make costs 300k, no matter if the margin is 10$ or 100k$.
The merchant should always be able to verify that, be it for pants or complex electronics. Verifying a laptop hasn't been tampered with and reinstalling the OEM OS is easy.
> products that are just plain too low margin to bother with
The margin is irrelevant, the cost is what matters. Throwing away an item that cost 300k to make costs 300k, no matter if the margin is 10$ or 100k$.
It can’t have been of that high a value. Amazon sends the really expensive stuff via UPS, with a signature and ID required.
I've bought stacks of laptops from them during the pandemic when some things were difficult to buy. $15k worth of laptops left on the stoop. This happened multiple times.
Meanwhile I ordered a $20 speaker cable that was factory defective and decided it was better to eat the loss than risk doing a return. I know every return you do with Amazon is a Black mark on your record. Unfortunately they bought out Audible, I have a library there I've been building over fifteen years. If I get banned by Amazon I lose all my audiobooks as well as paid music and movies on Amazon itself. I've eaten a bunch of losses actually due to this threat.
Unless you're retuning multiple things a month every month this probably isn't a realistic fear but, I guess you never know with these big corporate automated systems.
Do you have any information on this record that Amazon keeps? Is there a risk of getting banned after a certain number of returns?
So the problem is that Amazon is extremely non-transparent about the policy and what the triggers are, so you will never see it coming. This is exactly why it causes me so much anxiety, I've heard that if you have bad luck with one high value laptop being defective or God forbid being stolen off your porch, that can do you in. So I want to save all my social credit for actual nightmare scenarios like that rather than waste it on returning defective Chinese cables and trinkets. I also avoid buying high risk items off Amazon now. (Products I know from personal experience have a higher than 1 in 1000 defect rate.)
https://bestlifeonline.com/banned-from-amazon/
https://bestlifeonline.com/banned-from-amazon/
Why not just stop ordering there?
Do you mean to punish them because of what I dislike or mainly to protect my media collection? Just so I can reply accordingly...
I'm sure Amazon knows theft rate by zip code.
They do. That sort of thing is tracked internally. There are some neighborhoods we know to not leave things laying around because they'll get stolen. OTOH, in most any suburban environment as long as its out of sight from the street and is protected from the elements, then it's considered to be in a secure location. If you're getting packages stolen then honestly the best solution is to have them delivered to an Amazon locker near you. That might not be convenient, but you'll definitely get your stuff.
I'm not sure what counts as "really expensive", but I ordered a $1k laptop via amazon and it was shipped with FedEx, no siganture required. (2-3 years ago, southeast US)
It’s a few thousands of USD. I don’t know what or even if there’s a magic cut off. But there’s some point where they seemingly no longer trust minimum wage subcontractors. Or perhaps it varies by locale… Even the Whole Foods security guards are armed where I live.
> Even the Whole Foods security guards are armed where I live
I don't remember ever having seen _any_ security guards in a grocery store before, let alone armed ones! It's possible I've mistaken some for regular employees if they wore the same uniform, but I'm fairly certain I would have noticed if they were carrying weapons...
I don't remember ever having seen _any_ security guards in a grocery store before, let alone armed ones! It's possible I've mistaken some for regular employees if they wore the same uniform, but I'm fairly certain I would have noticed if they were carrying weapons...
Local grocers here (UK) have security guards (not armed!) I once saw one chasing a shoplifter; the shoplifter ran faster. But most of the time they're just standing around, diddling their mobile device.
I don't think their purpose is to deter shoplifters; it's really to deter assaults on staff. Shoplifting is just part of the cost of doing business as a grocers.
I once saw a couple of armed cops in my local grocers; UK cops are generally not armed, but these guys were carrying big old pistols as they wandered through the aisles looking for sandwiches. I'm not keen on sharing supermarket aisles with gunmen, even if they're in uniform; so I complained. Armed cops should disarm (e.g. leave their guns in the cop-car) if all they're doing is shopping for lunch. I was treated with scorn.
I don't think their purpose is to deter shoplifters; it's really to deter assaults on staff. Shoplifting is just part of the cost of doing business as a grocers.
I once saw a couple of armed cops in my local grocers; UK cops are generally not armed, but these guys were carrying big old pistols as they wandered through the aisles looking for sandwiches. I'm not keen on sharing supermarket aisles with gunmen, even if they're in uniform; so I complained. Armed cops should disarm (e.g. leave their guns in the cop-car) if all they're doing is shopping for lunch. I was treated with scorn.
UK also. I reported a minor crime and had armed plod turn up on my doorstep as they were "in the area".
I rather politely told them to fuck off. (We can do without militarisation of our police service thankyou.)
I rather politely told them to fuck off. (We can do without militarisation of our police service thankyou.)
I live in an EU inner city. Most of our grocery stores are quite small, so it's usually like one cashier, one person stacking shelves, and maybe extra people at peak hours to handle deliveries or open a second checkout. A security guard would definitely be out of their budget. For americans, think like a double size 7-11.
Larger stores in the suburbs definitely do, and my understanding is something like whole foods would be similarly sized to those.
Larger stores in the suburbs definitely do, and my understanding is something like whole foods would be similarly sized to those.
I think it depends on the seller, I've had to sign for $20 items but not ones that cost a few hundred.
I have never (hundreds, maybe even 1000+ deliveries) had to sign for an Amazon purchase. The only thing I can recall signing for, from any vendor, in the past 10 years was my wine club shipments and that's only been 50/50 since Covid.
I have $300 purchases that I had to read a 6-digit character to the amazon driver, the driver enter it in their device, and then release for shipment.
I've gotten laptops shipped that supposedly had a signature required, but they ended up leaving it at the door anyway. Then the signature on the order shows a misspelled version of my name. I guess it just doesn't matter to them.
Damn all I got were aquarium supplies and plus size clothing.
It isn't just Amazon. About a month ago, FedEx delivered several unexpected packages to my house. It was the right street but not even the same number of digits in the house number, so not close to being a honest mistake.
The intended recipient called the cops and FedEx tracked it down. It turned out to be several packages of gift cards, which is super sketchy, but other than a confusing experience with the police, I guess it turned out ok for everyone except maybe the driver.
The intended recipient called the cops and FedEx tracked it down. It turned out to be several packages of gift cards, which is super sketchy, but other than a confusing experience with the police, I guess it turned out ok for everyone except maybe the driver.
- I would be afraid, if I use it, to be “caught with stolen goods.”
- Can they deliver a written notice that we can use it?
- Can they deliver a written notice that we can use it?
Try to have the delivery company take it to the correct address? Unless amzn was the delivery company. Call the recipient? Keeping it sounds like it should be lower on the list.
All the stories in this thread should be remembered when they will talk about zero carbon footprint and reducing waste in packaging.
Amazon can be very weird about deliveries and delivery problems. There's a distinct tendency for orders that are particularly good deals to just not show up. Also one time I forgot to ship a fairly expensive return item and eventually I just got an email saying "your return has been received and your refund processed."
> Amazon – the logistics expert the world has come to rely on
Ah, yes, the really narrow definition of ‘the world’. Meaning the US, as everyone knows.
Ah, yes, the really narrow definition of ‘the world’. Meaning the US, as everyone knows.
Less than NA, but Amazon is 30% of e-commerce in the UK, and 25% of JP
We are a very efficient company because we waste everybody's time for free.
Ya, this sucks but what's even more amazing is the relatively few f-ups that happen from Amazon. Given the millions of packages that they deal with daily I'm amazed that I keep on getting my packages on time and with little to complain about.
Logistics are efficient in only one direction. It's about 20x more expensive for packages to flow in the reverse direction.
That bin of 'just throw it away' packages is a pretty good visualization of the cost asymmetry of reverse logistics. That, and how the delivered cost of an item is often 4-5x over the 'ex factory' cost, so altogether it's cost effective on average to abandon mis delivered products as long as your error rate is low enough. I'd wager that the cost to handle the support ticket that reported the delivery issue alone may start to approach the ex-factory replacement value of the cheapest goods in the pile...
That bin of 'just throw it away' packages is a pretty good visualization of the cost asymmetry of reverse logistics. That, and how the delivered cost of an item is often 4-5x over the 'ex factory' cost, so altogether it's cost effective on average to abandon mis delivered products as long as your error rate is low enough. I'd wager that the cost to handle the support ticket that reported the delivery issue alone may start to approach the ex-factory replacement value of the cheapest goods in the pile...
> Logistics are efficient in only one direction. It's about 20x more expensive for packages to flow in the reverse direction.
Source needed. I would expect Amazon to have shipping between major hubs well figured out. The only cost that they may be unwilling to pay is the last mile pickup cost of packages like this (if the expected used value of the item(s) in the package is lower than this cost). But that's not 20x expensive, should be comparable to shipping costs.
Source needed. I would expect Amazon to have shipping between major hubs well figured out. The only cost that they may be unwilling to pay is the last mile pickup cost of packages like this (if the expected used value of the item(s) in the package is lower than this cost). But that's not 20x expensive, should be comparable to shipping costs.
Personal experience. I've built out numerous supply chains. One of my favorite anecdotes is that Best Buy used to pay for 1000 units, but require us to ship them 1020 units. And the factories always agreed to it because the alternative was paying for reverse logistics on any return. Basically it was always cheaper to send 2% extra, free of charge, in the forward direction than any risk of handling a return in the other direction. Everybody wins - the factory pays less in the end for warranty service, and Best Buy gets a 'no questions asked' return policy without paying for it. That's also why you'd see the 'as is' racks at best buy... those were the returned units. Wasn't worth it to send them back to the factory, just sold at half the price with no returns allowed.
If you still don't believe me, go to Fedex.com and quote the price to ship a large screen TV from your home to Shenzhen.
If you still don't believe me, go to Fedex.com and quote the price to ship a large screen TV from your home to Shenzhen.
Reverse logistics suck. Sure, once stuff is in the network of, say, FedEx, per-mile costs are comparable. Thing start to become more expensive from the point the returns arrive at an (Amazon) warehouse:
- stuff isn't packed as good as from the supplier - stuff has to be unpacked, checked, graded, re-packed, re-labelled and re-stored - stuff isn't delivered in bulk, it is delivered in small, more often tan not, single-unit quantities making goods receipt and in-bound ops more expensive
No idea if it is 20x, but it is considerably more expensive.
- stuff isn't packed as good as from the supplier - stuff has to be unpacked, checked, graded, re-packed, re-labelled and re-stored - stuff isn't delivered in bulk, it is delivered in small, more often tan not, single-unit quantities making goods receipt and in-bound ops more expensive
No idea if it is 20x, but it is considerably more expensive.
My experience is that one-off human costs tend to be extreme for exceptions at big organizations.
Handling exceptions might require a business day or two of admin time just to handle the baseline exception. Multiply 16 hours by salary, and you're at big bucks.
Plus, you need processes for oversight. That costs /a lot/ more. Ownership sounds great on paper -- where any support rep can grant an exception -- but in practice, that gradually leads to a culture of abuse. It starts little, and once that's part of the culture, increases over time.
Handling exceptions might require a business day or two of admin time just to handle the baseline exception. Multiply 16 hours by salary, and you're at big bucks.
Plus, you need processes for oversight. That costs /a lot/ more. Ownership sounds great on paper -- where any support rep can grant an exception -- but in practice, that gradually leads to a culture of abuse. It starts little, and once that's part of the culture, increases over time.
20x sounds way too high. Imagine if pickup at factories is free due to scale, and the only cost is drop-off, then a return should be about two times as expensive, since sending a package to the factory is no different then someone's home.
Factories ship in bulk. Returns ship, typically, as singletons.
The cost to put one extra box into a shipping container containing thousands of identical units, the pick up of which is scheduled months in advance (so utilization of the overall cargo ship is near ideal), is negligible. Similarly, the cost to break down the incoming shipment, warehouse it and check it in is small, because the factory ensures the correct bar codes are on the outside of the boxes. The worker checking them in is completely stateless - scan a barcode, stick the box in the rack with a light, move on, thus the worker is not specialized and cheaper. From there individual orders are scheduled and collated overnight into trucks that carry hundreds of boxes to individual cities, which are then broken down into the last mile courier.
Now, to arrange the reverse logistics within a bounded amount of time (less than two weeks, say), you are likely to have to send an empty truck to the end address; if you're lucky the route has other packages, but you can't count on it. The reverse logistics sender may not be there when the pick up arrives, so you either have to arrange multiple pickup or risk leaving the item unguarded. Then the box arrives at the local warehouse, with no specific routing information to where the rest of the inventory is, so you have a specialist inspect the box and also make sure there isn't fraud going on - eg people ordering phones and returning similarly weighted bricks. Then if you want that box to make it all the way back to the overseas factory where it was produced, you're probably booking it on an airplane, and not a cargo ship.
20x is actually on the low end. A wall wart power supply might run an incremental cost of about $1 to ship from Shenzhen to your door. Sending that same thing back to the factory by FedEx - a process that takes about a week with customs and pick up delays - probably north of $50 for the 'rack rate' retail shipper.
The cost to put one extra box into a shipping container containing thousands of identical units, the pick up of which is scheduled months in advance (so utilization of the overall cargo ship is near ideal), is negligible. Similarly, the cost to break down the incoming shipment, warehouse it and check it in is small, because the factory ensures the correct bar codes are on the outside of the boxes. The worker checking them in is completely stateless - scan a barcode, stick the box in the rack with a light, move on, thus the worker is not specialized and cheaper. From there individual orders are scheduled and collated overnight into trucks that carry hundreds of boxes to individual cities, which are then broken down into the last mile courier.
Now, to arrange the reverse logistics within a bounded amount of time (less than two weeks, say), you are likely to have to send an empty truck to the end address; if you're lucky the route has other packages, but you can't count on it. The reverse logistics sender may not be there when the pick up arrives, so you either have to arrange multiple pickup or risk leaving the item unguarded. Then the box arrives at the local warehouse, with no specific routing information to where the rest of the inventory is, so you have a specialist inspect the box and also make sure there isn't fraud going on - eg people ordering phones and returning similarly weighted bricks. Then if you want that box to make it all the way back to the overseas factory where it was produced, you're probably booking it on an airplane, and not a cargo ship.
20x is actually on the low end. A wall wart power supply might run an incremental cost of about $1 to ship from Shenzhen to your door. Sending that same thing back to the factory by FedEx - a process that takes about a week with customs and pick up delays - probably north of $50 for the 'rack rate' retail shipper.
Sure, but the bulkshipping is only from factory->Amazon unless it is a really common goods.
A consumer->Amazon->factory should be about twice the singleton shipping for a domestic source and destination compared to the reverse shipping path.
Amazon could in theory ship returns to sellers like they would be consumers ...
A consumer->Amazon->factory should be about twice the singleton shipping for a domestic source and destination compared to the reverse shipping path.
Amazon could in theory ship returns to sellers like they would be consumers ...
That's the part where reality hits theory, as usual reality wins. Because before Amazon can ship in bulk, they have to repack all the single returns. They have to store them until they get enough volumes to justify bulk shipments, and usually those shipments aren't article pure. All that costs, a lot more it does for a factory producing this stuff in the first place. Logistics-wise returns and consumer last-mile deliveries are among the worst things to handle.
I believe that this is why Amazon contracted with Kohl’s and certain other stores to act as drop off points for returns, so that the stores could do the repackaging and then Amazon could just send a truck to pick up the bulk package.
No special inside information or anything here, just my personal opinion.
No special inside information or anything here, just my personal opinion.
Cost =/= price. Maybe pick up will be free of charge, it will absolutely have a cost so. Big cost drivers are also the warehouse processes, it's a big difference of getting properly packed pallets of badly packed single parcels. And a full truck load is orders magnitude cheaper, per unit, than parcel deliveries.
What that price difference is exactly is impossible to tell without exact numbers. And those will never be publicly available.
What that price difference is exactly is impossible to tell without exact numbers. And those will never be publicly available.
-> OR badly packed single parcels.
Based on my experience, I think you may be underestimating the problems with arranging returns for unwanted items. I don't work at Amazon but I did used to work for an online retailer that shipped luxury items (think several hundred UK pounds) direct to the customer.
Getting misdelivered items back to our warehouse and sorted back into stock was a nightmare, and generally we tried not to if at all possible. Whenever a member of the public called us to report they had received a package intended for one of our customers, we would generally ask the caller if they wanted to buy it from us for a large discount. If they declined, we would either let them keep it for free, or if we felt the value of the item justified it we would make an attempt to get it brought back to us. However, between couriers not turning up to collect it on multiple occasions (presumably because there was no real incentive for them to turn up), the homeowner not being at home when the courier arrived, the item being stolen from the homeowner's driveway before the courier getting to it and the courier "losing" the item in transit, the percentage of items that actually came back to us was quite low. In addition, it was then all but impossible to put the item back into stock, since the product line may have come to an end, the package may not be complete, etc. Generally the item would be sold off at a massive discount to staff members. The admin costs through this process would be considerable.
Getting misdelivered items back to our warehouse and sorted back into stock was a nightmare, and generally we tried not to if at all possible. Whenever a member of the public called us to report they had received a package intended for one of our customers, we would generally ask the caller if they wanted to buy it from us for a large discount. If they declined, we would either let them keep it for free, or if we felt the value of the item justified it we would make an attempt to get it brought back to us. However, between couriers not turning up to collect it on multiple occasions (presumably because there was no real incentive for them to turn up), the homeowner not being at home when the courier arrived, the item being stolen from the homeowner's driveway before the courier getting to it and the courier "losing" the item in transit, the percentage of items that actually came back to us was quite low. In addition, it was then all but impossible to put the item back into stock, since the product line may have come to an end, the package may not be complete, etc. Generally the item would be sold off at a massive discount to staff members. The admin costs through this process would be considerable.
I have two apartments above my office, both residents have regular parcel deliveries and expect me to be available to receive them as some kind of free concierge service that I don't remember signing-up for?
To make matters worse, one of these people refuses speak to me even I am stood immediately in front of him; the other parks her car in such a manner that I have to pay to park in a public space down the road despite polite requests for her to park in a more considerable manner. I've also had to soundproof my office at my own cost because of her barking dog (that she isn't supposed to have).
The added irony being that if I order stuff from amazon I have it delivered to a nearby locker because I don't like waiting all day for the buzzer to go.
So, yeah, not much sympathy from here. And, yes, I do still accept their parcels. Just because some people are **holes doesn't mean I have to be one too.
To make matters worse, one of these people refuses speak to me even I am stood immediately in front of him; the other parks her car in such a manner that I have to pay to park in a public space down the road despite polite requests for her to park in a more considerable manner. I've also had to soundproof my office at my own cost because of her barking dog (that she isn't supposed to have).
The added irony being that if I order stuff from amazon I have it delivered to a nearby locker because I don't like waiting all day for the buzzer to go.
So, yeah, not much sympathy from here. And, yes, I do still accept their parcels. Just because some people are **holes doesn't mean I have to be one too.
An unsubstantiated but to me very plausible theory about America is that its society is designed in such a way that it creates a huge lower class for its upper class to abuse ("hire for peanuts"). This abuse is a means for the rich to enrich themselves even further by selling products and services to middle class, luring them into thinking they, too, can become plutocrats, or at least achieve something close to a plutocrat's level of standards of living. If a poor person rejects one of those shit jobs they are labeled as "being lazy" and are shunned by society.
They're running out of people to abuse. Amazon seems to have bought up about a quarter of all advertising space on YouTube and is using it all to recruit employees. None of the ads are trying to get anyone to buy anything, just trying to get people to apply for jobs. I'm not sure I've seen Amazon advertise jobs on YouTube before this year and now the ads are ubiquitous.
> One person noted that “It costs more logistically for Amazon to pick up and redeliver than to replace most items. It’s simply a cost of doing business and is factored into the model.”
How do we refactor our economy such that this is no longer possible? What actually needs to happen?
How do we refactor our economy such that this is no longer possible? What actually needs to happen?
Why does it need to change?
If it costs more to pick up and redeliver than it does to leave free gifts for random people, what's the downside of leaving free gifts?
If it costs more to pick up and redeliver than it does to leave free gifts for random people, what's the downside of leaving free gifts?
If that is even close to reality, there is no excuse not to just go straight to UBI and our Star Trek future… and stop messing around with pathetically arbitrary detritus being spewed off the fringes of a giant corporation, uselessly, and calling that 'gifts'.
'Free gifts for random people' isn't gifts, it's pollution.
'Free gifts for random people' isn't gifts, it's pollution.
> Why does it need to change?
Because when every decision by a company ultimately comes down to cost/profit, we lose the planet.
> If it costs more to pick up and redeliver than it does to leave free gifts for random people, what's the downside of leaving free gifts?
1) the ethics are wrong here. Those gifts were intended for different people
2) Amazon "own" delivery here, and they failed; the cost is on them
3) a solution like "it's cheaper to post new ones" is anti-ecological (and thus probably also unethical)
4) Amazon is showing a very subtle disregard for its staff here. Technically, the staff member had responsibility for this delivery and they failed to manage that. Amazon enabled this misbehaviour (they probably enforced it through ridiculous targets). This removes the agency of the delivery staff. A "good" company would use individual staff members' agency to improve conditions for both the company and its staff (like how "good" engineering firms foster learning and career development). Whilst there may not be a career ladder with many rungs in delivery, those on the ladder should be afforded respect and their responsibility championed. Amazon failed here too.
Because when every decision by a company ultimately comes down to cost/profit, we lose the planet.
> If it costs more to pick up and redeliver than it does to leave free gifts for random people, what's the downside of leaving free gifts?
1) the ethics are wrong here. Those gifts were intended for different people
2) Amazon "own" delivery here, and they failed; the cost is on them
3) a solution like "it's cheaper to post new ones" is anti-ecological (and thus probably also unethical)
4) Amazon is showing a very subtle disregard for its staff here. Technically, the staff member had responsibility for this delivery and they failed to manage that. Amazon enabled this misbehaviour (they probably enforced it through ridiculous targets). This removes the agency of the delivery staff. A "good" company would use individual staff members' agency to improve conditions for both the company and its staff (like how "good" engineering firms foster learning and career development). Whilst there may not be a career ladder with many rungs in delivery, those on the ladder should be afforded respect and their responsibility championed. Amazon failed here too.
> “Everyone at Amazon was saying, ’You can just throw these out.’”
Isn't this great? Amazon probably records their calls so above said Andrea Norman could just have a huge bag of goodies for free. Take whatever you want and donate the rest. The vendors probably are going to reship/refund to the customers and Amazon will pay. Isn't this cool?
Isn't this great? Amazon probably records their calls so above said Andrea Norman could just have a huge bag of goodies for free. Take whatever you want and donate the rest. The vendors probably are going to reship/refund to the customers and Amazon will pay. Isn't this cool?
Twice this year Amazon has sent me an entire case of a product instead of just the single item I ordered. I wasn't charged extra and they didn't want anything back. It appears in both cases that in the warehouse a case of the items wasn't opened and individually labeled but instead the case labeled as an individual item. One of the items was an inexpensive home improvement item but the other was a moderately priced computer part. It's crazy that their system is so highly optimized for sending items out that it doesn't make financial sense to retrieve these items.
The customers will tell Amazon they never received the items. Amazon will replace them free.
If the items sold were from an FBA seller, Amazon won't eat the cost but will charge back the FBA seller.
The contracted carrier may or may not ever hear about it.