Ask HN: Have you accepted the TOS that give FB access to your WhatsApp data?
198 comments
Never accepted it. Moved to Signal. Didn't install WhatsApp when I upgraded my phone a few months ago. "unfriended" absolutely everyone on Facebook and manually destroyed all my Facebook activities going back to the creation of my account there. Absolutely all of it. The more difficult the process became, the more I realized how coercive they were in welding you into their network. I maintain an empty shell of an account filled with "creative" metadata due to some public groups and clubs that do not have the resources to manage their own presence online.
Suffice to say I did not respond well to the TOS change.
Suffice to say I did not respond well to the TOS change.
Did the same. No longer on any part of Facebook offerings and no apps installed. Banned from my home network too. The only thing left is an empty WhatsApp account with a status telling people to find me on Signal.
You keep the shell because you're helping those groups maintain their own presence online? I'm looking into non-FB ways to do this, feel free to contact me, would be glad to explore and chat on it
I didn’t all this while, but just yesterday when my toddler was playing with my phone, the pop up opened and it got clicked as my toddler was repeatedly beating on the screen.
I guess this was their intention all along by showing repeated pop up windows.
I guess this was their intention all along by showing repeated pop up windows.
I wonder if you could contact support and explain the situation. They can't ignore the fact that the agreement isn't valid if you weren't the one who clicked the button... right?
No contract is formed in this case, but FB can just stop serving such a person if they don't agree to it, if it's easier for them to do so.
Can someone give me a simple non-cynical explanation on what the update in terms is about? From my understanding, it only pertains to communications with businesses and give them some Facbeook tools to manage their communications with customers.
A possibility that I can see is simply that they want to add a bot API which is just a simple rest API and not E2E encrypted. And if they remove the E2EE that means FB will be able to read all messages for businesses using their bot API.
Correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is that to run a WhatsApp bot you currently basically need to run a version of the whole app.
No idea if my theory is correct but if it is I wonder why they won't just provide a good library which implrments their protocol, E2E encryption and everything.
Correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is that to run a WhatsApp bot you currently basically need to run a version of the whole app.
No idea if my theory is correct but if it is I wonder why they won't just provide a good library which implrments their protocol, E2E encryption and everything.
This was pretty explicitly explained by their representatives when this was all blowing up... and they actually DO provide the "library" version, it is just enough of an operations challenge for most businesses that they clearly got a lot of demand for a hosted solution tied to pages.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25875802
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26218230
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26801760
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25875802
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26218230
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26801760
How is using a library an operations challenge? Especially in the era of package managers like npm and maven. This seems to me like FB is incompetent and cannot write a good library for bot use.
It’s not a library. It’s a distributed multi-node WhatsApp client that handles the proprietary parts and interacts with your chatbot application using webhooks/REST APIs.
Not trivial to setup and operate, as it was designed for high-throughput scenarios. It’s very understandable that smaller customers wouldn’t want to handle that little monster.
Not trivial to setup and operate, as it was designed for high-throughput scenarios. It’s very understandable that smaller customers wouldn’t want to handle that little monster.
That is exactly what I thought which is why I suggested that FB should replace their ugly hack with a normal library. But the person who I replied claimed they have a library which sounded weird to me because then there would be no ops problem.
I feel FB is solving a technical problem by alienating a bunch of their users with a terms change. Why not instead just build the right technical solution?
I feel FB is solving a technical problem by alienating a bunch of their users with a terms change. Why not instead just build the right technical solution?
By "library" I assumed you were just concerned with "local". I put it in quotes as it isn't a literal library that you would embed in your build system and link into your program. I honestly don't see how it being a literal library would make it easier... that frankly sounds more complex to integrate and maintain and ensure correct operation of than a separate daemon that you interact with over HTTP instead of some presumably-C-compatible ABI.
Not sure outside Europe, but here last time I checked it basically said that whenever you talk with a business account you are basically talking with Facebook, otherwise nothing else changes.
Still will be nice to have another opinion.
Still will be nice to have another opinion.
As I understand it merely allows businesses to use tools hosted by Facebook if they want.
I had the impression it means all WhatsApp business accounts, no matter if they use the Facebook backend or not (because for a WhatsApp business account you need to use the WhatsApp business app, which is the one providing the service and possibly the Facebook backend itself).
But I couldn't find any confirmation. There is a WhatsApp business API that is from Facebook, but apparently you don't necessarily need to use it.
But I couldn't find any confirmation. There is a WhatsApp business API that is from Facebook, but apparently you don't necessarily need to use it.
The WhatsApp business app uses E2E encryption just like the consumer app, so I don't see how that could be the case.
So it's like saying "Everything that you say to XYZ business we can listen in on"? Would we accept that from our phone companies?
Does the term "business" include governments as well?
Does the term "business" include governments as well?
If you buy something from a shop, everything related to that transaction is known to the shop partners.
If you talk to an automated machine over phone, everything you say will be recorded.
This seems similar, all you say to the business will be logged by Facebook. But not because you use WhatsApp, but because the business choosed Facebook to "help" with all its transactions. If you talk to a business via telegram/Twitter/matrix/etc, and the business uses a Facebook backend, all you say can be recorded and used by Facebook.
By business I'm referring to WhatsApp business accounts.
By business I'm referring to WhatsApp business accounts.
Yes we would. Since regular phone calls aren't encrypted, not to speak of E2EE, phone companies can listen on all calls.
Of course I suspect Meta actually will listen on business calls while traditional phone companies will most likely only do so after a court order, but we put the bar much higher with digital services compared to regular phone calls.
Of course I suspect Meta actually will listen on business calls while traditional phone companies will most likely only do so after a court order, but we put the bar much higher with digital services compared to regular phone calls.
That's because there's no monetary reason for the phone company to listen in but Facebook is all about listening and recording.
I don't mean "can" as in "technically possible, even if they have no reason to". I mean "can" as in "explicitly invited, with the intention to use the data gathered to try to influence my opinion or viewpoints [1] in the future".
[1] Advertising, and maybe political messages
[1] Advertising, and maybe political messages
My understanding is the same. Facebook are providing hosting services to businesses so they can centralise their business WhatsApp messaging in one place.
This means that when a message is decrypted by a recipient, that decryption is taking place within a Facebook service, rather than on an end user device.
Unfortunately, as you say, cynicism is a problem with anything linked to a company like Facebook/Meta that has earned a certain amount of distrust.
This means that when a message is decrypted by a recipient, that decryption is taking place within a Facebook service, rather than on an end user device.
Unfortunately, as you say, cynicism is a problem with anything linked to a company like Facebook/Meta that has earned a certain amount of distrust.
I straight up deleted my WhatsApp and Facebook accounts when they announced those plans. Thankfully I was mostly able to move everyone I care about from WhatsApp to Signal. It's been smooth sailing ever since, and I'm step further from having a tech giant control my life.
Nope, I still click the "X" in the top corner every time I open it.
However, I use WhatsApp sparingly - my mum and one friend, that's it.
At some point I'll remove it completely.
However, I use WhatsApp sparingly - my mum and one friend, that's it.
At some point I'll remove it completely.
Migrated completely from WhatsApp to Signal and Telegram.
I still run WhatsApp for the people I absolutely have to.
For that, I am using an old, and almost bust phone I have from 5 years ago.
No spyware on my primary phone.
I still run WhatsApp for the people I absolutely have to.
For that, I am using an old, and almost bust phone I have from 5 years ago.
No spyware on my primary phone.
> No spyware on my primary phone.
May I ask how you achieved this? I would be interested in that setup, maybe I could then get over the hump and start using signal (though I don't like centralized communication platforms, nor do I like phone numbers as identifiers). Last time I checked, signal required android or ios, so only usable with built-in spyware.
May I ask how you achieved this? I would be interested in that setup, maybe I could then get over the hump and start using signal (though I don't like centralized communication platforms, nor do I like phone numbers as identifiers). Last time I checked, signal required android or ios, so only usable with built-in spyware.
> Last time I checked, signal required android or ios, so only usable with built-in spyware.
You might be interested in https://grapheneos.org/ . I run it on my primary phone and it works great.
You might be interested in https://grapheneos.org/ . I run it on my primary phone and it works great.
If your phone contains a baseband for RF communication, isn't that spyware as well?
Same, I cant say ive moved completely bc i still have a bunch of people only reachable on whatsapp, but i have a dedicated phone for it
I think the question is asking one thing and asserting another:
- "have you accepted the TOS?" as the question
- "the TOS gives FB access to (all) your WhatsApp data" as the assertion
My questions: do you believe that this new TOS gives FB access to my WhatsApp data? If so, to which of my data? All of it?
I personally don't believe this TOS gives FB access to all of the communication data I have on WhatsApp, and thus rendering e2ee useless, yet, I'm open to learning how I might be wrong on that.
- "have you accepted the TOS?" as the question
- "the TOS gives FB access to (all) your WhatsApp data" as the assertion
My questions: do you believe that this new TOS gives FB access to my WhatsApp data? If so, to which of my data? All of it?
I personally don't believe this TOS gives FB access to all of the communication data I have on WhatsApp, and thus rendering e2ee useless, yet, I'm open to learning how I might be wrong on that.
Why does anyone believe that FB is not trawling the data anyway? Is there some technical barrier preventing it?
then if we assume they were trawling it anyway (that they're lying about end-to-end encryption), why would this TOS change matter?
Nobody is talking about how ridiculous it is that none of these messaging apps talk to the other.
everyone i know uses whatsapp and nothing else, no real choice until the apps talk to each other.
everyone i know uses whatsapp and nothing else, no real choice until the apps talk to each other.
This. Exactly.
Problem is that everyone knows the spyware issue, but if you leave WhatsApp, install every secure messenger that no one you know uses, you'll be a lonely guy.
Real security it turns out is just not communicating.
Problem is that everyone knows the spyware issue, but if you leave WhatsApp, install every secure messenger that no one you know uses, you'll be a lonely guy.
Real security it turns out is just not communicating.
Why would WhatsApp ever have this functionality? It would do serious damage to the walled garden which they've so successfully built.
Of course it makes no business sense but regulations are coming that might require that in the EU.
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20211210IP...
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20211210IP...
I would argue Facebook are abusing their market dominance by walling out other communication platforms prevent any real choice.
I would expect the competition and markets authority to act.
I would expect the competition and markets authority to act.
Conversely, it wouldn’t really make sense for Signal to interoperate with apps that don’t offer the same level of privacy.
Would an Error similar to Google Chrome's warning for non HTTPS sites not work?
~"This contact does not provide a secure means to communicate with them, click below to ignore this warning however your communication may be monitored."
~"This contact does not provide a secure means to communicate with them, click below to ignore this warning however your communication may be monitored."
Even with E2E, if both platforms offered the same standarized encryption, would this allow for cross-platform messaging? Of course, some mechanism for exchanging of public keys would be needed as well.
The Axolotl ratchet is the basis of both current Signal and WhatsApp. The standarized layer you are looking for is Matrix, which uses the same encryption approach.
I guess not since both platforms use centralized protocols.
With the Signal client being FOSS [1] and WhatsApp being proprietary, I also think that me using Signal to message someone on WhatsApp would still downgrade my privacy because I don’t know what the WhatsApp client is really doing with my message.
[1] In reality I don’t know that the Signal app on my phone is actually built from the publicly available code.
With the Signal client being FOSS [1] and WhatsApp being proprietary, I also think that me using Signal to message someone on WhatsApp would still downgrade my privacy because I don’t know what the WhatsApp client is really doing with my message.
[1] In reality I don’t know that the Signal app on my phone is actually built from the publicly available code.
> because I don’t know what the WhatsApp client is really doing with my message.
You don't know that the person receiving your signal message hasn't jailbroken their phone and installed spyware unknowingly.
When you first message someone using a different platform, Signal could display a warning ~"This contact is using Whatsapp and Signal cannot confirm that communication will be secured, do you wish to continue?"
You don't know that the person receiving your signal message hasn't jailbroken their phone and installed spyware unknowingly.
When you first message someone using a different platform, Signal could display a warning ~"This contact is using Whatsapp and Signal cannot confirm that communication will be secured, do you wish to continue?"
Why not build yourself from source?
I'm on iOS and I believe I'd have to pay Apple an annual fee for the privilege of building Signal myself and/or installing the compiled app. (Maybe I'd also have to buy a Mac or MacBook?) I also think I would have to reinstall my own build every few weeks and it wouldn't have access to my current chat history.
But I've never tried. I'd love to learn about any misconceptions.
But I've never tried. I'd love to learn about any misconceptions.
I am using Android and building from source there is not complicated at all [1]. I was under wrong impression that using own build under iOS is not much harder :(
[1] https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Android/wiki/How-to-buil...
[1] https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Android/wiki/How-to-buil...
Like Matrix, then.
Those apps are becoming like phone numbers. Can, say Verizon, no allow you to message a friend on at&t?
How would, say, Signal "talk" to WhatsApp/Facebook/Instagram/Telegram/… without compromising its security guarantees?
Use the same mechanism as web browsers for none-SSL websites.
Give the users a warning and let them make an informed decision.
Signal could also place in their TOS or require a contract signed with third-party platforms for legally binding guarantee, received signal messages will not be analysed.
Signal could also place in their TOS or require a contract signed with third-party platforms for legally binding guarantee, received signal messages will not be analysed.
They should really have a "don't ask again" button. Is it really opt-in if they ask the user every time they open the app? It feels like it's opt-in by attrition.
It's not opt-in and they never claimed such a thing, it is a mandatory update to their terms of service for all users.
Mandatory? If it was mandatory and it was not accepted, then the app should close when the option is declined. Otherwise, cynical me thinks they are doing what they want even without your acceptance. Just because you haven't notified them that you've read the change doesn't mean the change hasn't been implemented.
I suppose they figured it would cause a lot of upset if they didn't provide a grace period to accept the new terms (and clearly that would have been the case, based on the reaction so far). Consider that people rely on WhatsApp for essential communication with family and colleagues and so on, and they may not have time to properly review the new terms if they were rolled out with no grace period.
People seeing this post are split to 2 groups:
- Those who didn't accept the new terms are glad to use the opportunity to virtue-signal.
- Those who accepted the new terms are afraid to admit so.
I'll bite the bullet: I accepted the terms.
If you want more honest opinions, you should probably post an anonymous poll.
- Those who didn't accept the new terms are glad to use the opportunity to virtue-signal.
- Those who accepted the new terms are afraid to admit so.
I'll bite the bullet: I accepted the terms.
If you want more honest opinions, you should probably post an anonymous poll.
I'm in a third group. I keep using WA or I'll have to call friends daily to keep up with them, until they block my number :-)
However I never accepted the new ToS. WA keep asking me to accept them and I don't (can't remember the actual wordings). It has been like that for months. I've even chatted with a business a couple of weeks ago. It seems they are doing like when they were asking for 1 Euro per year. They eventually gave up and never interrupted the service. The network effects of losing users work against them.
However I never accepted the new ToS. WA keep asking me to accept them and I don't (can't remember the actual wordings). It has been like that for months. I've even chatted with a business a couple of weeks ago. It seems they are doing like when they were asking for 1 Euro per year. They eventually gave up and never interrupted the service. The network effects of losing users work against them.
I don't run Facebook, Instagram or WhatsApp on my phone.
I am not sure how hard it is to grasp that some people just don't use any of it. But I guess this is where you come to virtue signal about virtue signalling.
Besides, when you boot up your phone and you see the Android logo, you're fucked anyways.
I am not sure how hard it is to grasp that some people just don't use any of it. But I guess this is where you come to virtue signal about virtue signalling.
Besides, when you boot up your phone and you see the Android logo, you're fucked anyways.
What is "virtue signal about virtue signalling"? If you don't need Whatsapp to communicate with your friends/family/colleagues then good for you. In my social circles Whatsapp is a must. Refusing to use it is almost like refusing to have a cellular phone, which is too high a price for me to pay.
> What is "virtue signal about virtue signalling"?
It's the jujitsu you did at the beginning of your first post. "People who chose the opposite of my choice are just here to brag about that and show us how concerned they are with big tech and privacy. I on the other hand have the stones to admit that I took the path of least resistance for convenience and there are many others like me that did the same that are just to scared to admit it. But I'm not - look at me!"
It's the jujitsu you did at the beginning of your first post. "People who chose the opposite of my choice are just here to brag about that and show us how concerned they are with big tech and privacy. I on the other hand have the stones to admit that I took the path of least resistance for convenience and there are many others like me that did the same that are just to scared to admit it. But I'm not - look at me!"
[deleted]
Exactly this. I accepted it because I got sick of the popup and wanted to talk to my family without having to try to convince them to move to another platform. I’m mildly annoyed about it but it didn’t seem like an issue worth spending time or effort worrying about too much.
This is not a poll. The interesting part about this post is why people accept it or what they do in order to not accept it. You did not contribute anything interesting by saying "I accepted the terms".
My comment started a thread where people felt comfortable to explain why they accepted the terms, so I think I did contribute something.
I accepted it because it's more convenient than dismissing the popup every time I want to send someone a message.
I’m in a third category where I have not accepted just because I still have an option not to. Waiting to see what happens.
I depend on WhatsApp heavily to keep in touch with friends and family and cannot imagine not using it (it would require everyone switching to signal enmasse).
I depend on WhatsApp heavily to keep in touch with friends and family and cannot imagine not using it (it would require everyone switching to signal enmasse).
No, I uninstalled it when Facebook acquired WhatsApp.
I switched to Telegram, Wire and Threema.
When Matrix became viable in 2020, I switched to it.
Though, I still have a few contacts remaining at Telegram.
I switched to Telegram, Wire and Threema.
When Matrix became viable in 2020, I switched to it.
Though, I still have a few contacts remaining at Telegram.
I haven't. I also moved WhatsApp into isolated user profile using Island to restrict the access to my data.
On top of that changed permissions: no microphone, no file system, no camera access.
On top of that changed permissions: no microphone, no file system, no camera access.
Shelter does the same thing, with the added bonus of both being FOSS and available on FDroid.
https://f-droid.org/en/packages/net.typeblog.shelter/
https://f-droid.org/en/packages/net.typeblog.shelter/
what is "island"?
I believe it's this https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.oasisfeng....
What kind of API is this using? What kind of risk is it to run this app by Oasis Feng?
Nope, I'm still stubbornly dismissing it every time it appears! It's been several months now, I think, and AFAIK nothing bad has happened as a result.
yes, nothing bad happened for me neither. Everything seems to work as expected.
Or maybe, everyone that accepted in the meantime has received a brand new Meta VR headset maybe :D?
Or maybe, everyone that accepted in the meantime has received a brand new Meta VR headset maybe :D?
Headsets? Man, you're behind the curve. We are all floating in our Otherland haptic tanks now, immersed in tactile gel and walking unimaginable rich worlds. Plus we get to entertain The Zuck, our king. Should've accepted that policy.
Seriously though, I didn't accept either. Should really set an auto-reply before removing account. Thinking of Watomatic.
https://github.com/adeekshith/watomatic
Seriously though, I didn't accept either. Should really set an auto-reply before removing account. Thinking of Watomatic.
https://github.com/adeekshith/watomatic
I derive a small amount of pleasure from clicking the little x every few days. I have no idea if it does anything, and I imagine at some point they'll just decide I've accepted anyway but I have no intention of agreeing willingly. I like to think that somewhere in Facebook's offices there's a dashboard that shows acceptance rate and I'm doing my part to keep that small % of resistance alive.
I also stopped sharing my contacts with whatsapp around the time the whole fiasco started.
I also stopped sharing my contacts with whatsapp around the time the whole fiasco started.
It's crazy to me that it seems like it's basically a legitimate tactic to hope that users accidentally agree to your TOS.
Nope, I just deleted my Facebook and WhatsApp accounts and moved to Signal.
My parents, my GF and around 5 friends installed Signal because of me, one friend started calling me instead and the rest... well I guess I wasn't that important to them.
Overall I'm much happier now.
My parents, my GF and around 5 friends installed Signal because of me, one friend started calling me instead and the rest... well I guess I wasn't that important to them.
Overall I'm much happier now.
Yeah my gf, granny, and dad are my issue :( so stubborn and refuse to move. Okay granny is technologically unable to really :P
Yes, I had to swap to an alternative phone while my phone was been repaired - it seems that it becomes mandatory when moving phone
Still haven’t accepted. Waiting to see how long this lasts, and what will Facebook do about it eventually.
No, I haven't installed WhatsApp, nor any Facebook app/program on my laptop.
I always use Facebook via the web, in reverse chronological order. If I suddenly see a stream of old/very interesting stuff, I know I've accidently let the algorithm into my brain, and click on the url again to get back to sanity.
https://www.facebook.com/?sk=h_chr
I always use Facebook via the web, in reverse chronological order. If I suddenly see a stream of old/very interesting stuff, I know I've accidently let the algorithm into my brain, and click on the url again to get back to sanity.
https://www.facebook.com/?sk=h_chr
No, removed WhatsApp and all Facebook apps from my phone since then.
Using Telegram and Signal instead. Don't want them spying on my phone or my data, at least when using through a browser they can't get so much data.
I can use Facebook and Instagram via the browser if needed, although I have not logged into fb from my phone since I updated my phone, just to keep it exclusive to my desktop.
I can use Facebook and Instagram via the browser if needed, although I have not logged into fb from my phone since I updated my phone, just to keep it exclusive to my desktop.
Still use WhatsApp because friends, but did not accept the new terms..
Trying to move everyone to signal but there are stragglers....
Trying to move everyone to signal but there are stragglers....
Me and pretty much everyone in this thread are in the same situation: we want to leave WhatsApp ASAP but can't because none of our friends use Signal. We should just be each other's friends already.
Hey I'm open for new friendships! We just need to get to know eachother!
What are your hobbies?
What are your hobbies?
I'm just not using Facebook or Whatsapp. Much easier that way :)
Also, I have found that the only people who insist on using it and aren't willing to contact me through other means are exactly the people where I was mostly keeping in touch because of social obligations, and not because I actually enjoy talking to them.
Also, I have found that the only people who insist on using it and aren't willing to contact me through other means are exactly the people where I was mostly keeping in touch because of social obligations, and not because I actually enjoy talking to them.
The only way to opt out is to stop using it - clicking accept/reject will most likely make no difference at all especially given Facebooks past behavior - I believe you can't trust them to honor any "opt-out"...
Its my opinion its just a box ticking permission for what they are doing already....
Its my opinion its just a box ticking permission for what they are doing already....
Nope. Originally I opted out when it let me (was that 2016?) and when this tos came along I couldn't get some people to switch to signal so decided to see how long it will let me press the x button. Which still works.
It seems the pop up has a 24h cooldown for me (EU).
Stopped using it years ago as soon as I could convince everyone to start using Telegram or Signal.
No, I uninstalled WhatsApp. I did not have FB installed, ever, so the problem is fully solved.
Same, I always nope away from that screen. I wonder how long it will keep going.
I have accepted, but I have locked down all the other permissions in-app such as Contacts, Camera Roll, Location etc. Whilst this certainly won't stop them, I hope it makes some of my data less useful.
Honestly, I saw some dialog and clicked Accept, despite not reading it. I don't use WhatsApp for anything critical. I use iMessage for that and I have a lot of trust in Apple to do the right thing.
> and I have a lot of trust in Apple to do the right thing
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28309202
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28309202
Yeah I am aware of that one. They postponed the update, so your link is not actually relevant in terms of operational iOS phones right now. Let's see what happens in the next months.
iMessage could be great except it falls back to SMS when the other phone is Android or there is no data network available. Also you lose the privacy once your messages are backed up to iCloud.
If they are not on iMessage, you will see that before even sending a message to them. At that point I'll go and see if they have some other means of Instant Messaging like WhatsApp or Telegram.
Same, I click it away every time I open the app, maybe once per month.
I am the only one who have accepted here?
I am the only one who don't care that much about Facebook knowing stuff about me?
I dislike Facebook and use it as little as possible for other reasons, but that some company knows about my favorite brands is low in my list of considerations.
I actually care about my privacy, it is just that governments and multinational companies are not my main focus. Too big, too far, at least for someone like me.
I am the only one who don't care that much about Facebook knowing stuff about me?
I dislike Facebook and use it as little as possible for other reasons, but that some company knows about my favorite brands is low in my list of considerations.
I actually care about my privacy, it is just that governments and multinational companies are not my main focus. Too big, too far, at least for someone like me.
The new TOS didn't really change much for one to one conversation but it exposed the previous TOS when people started comparing clauses and actually read it. I accepted the terms and use WhatsApp if I absolutely have to. No personal stuff there. They still have my metadata but I've tried to give them as little data as possible. No status and no profile photo. No Google drive backups.
I immediately closed my WhatsApp account and moved to Telegram, and I urged anyone in my family who wanted me in a group to do the same.
They all switched, except my sister who works with people in countries where Whatsapp is the dominant communication platform.
I'm still ticked off that Google Allo was the best designed chat app of the past decade and that they thought Messages with RCS features could take its place.
They all switched, except my sister who works with people in countries where Whatsapp is the dominant communication platform.
I'm still ticked off that Google Allo was the best designed chat app of the past decade and that they thought Messages with RCS features could take its place.
> I'm still ticked off that Google Allo was the best designed chat app of the past decade and that they thought Messages with RCS features could take its place.
This. Allo was baller and I used it to chat with basically everyone and then it shut down. Took me years to convince anyone to switch off of WhatsApp after that
This. Allo was baller and I used it to chat with basically everyone and then it shut down. Took me years to convince anyone to switch off of WhatsApp after that
I did not see any option to cancel it and want to undo my agreement but unsure how. If anyone could tell me, I'd be very thankful.
Under duress, yes. There is a multitude of people and groups I wouldn't be able to contact without WhatsApp. For a couple of months I was hoping that the tide would turn to Signal/Telegram, but it just didn't really happen. There is no way I can contact the people I want to contact apart from WhatsApp.
Of course I did not accept the TOS change. I never accepted any TOS from facebook, nor whatsapp.
Centralized communication systems are obviously worse than decentralized ones for everybody except the few people profiting from it. So I never signed up to facebook or whatsapp or any other such "service".
No, it’s what pushed me to delete WhatsApp
I actually just tapped that little X before switching to this tab. At this point it just feels like a Placebo.
I deleted my facebook account 6 years ago or so and nobody noticed it at all. It's been a platform solely to consume shitposts and stalk others - that's it. Therefore my account deletion went completely unnoticed :)
However, unfortunately, I still use WhatsApp to this day - because of convinience.
However, unfortunately, I still use WhatsApp to this day - because of convinience.
Maybe it's just because I don't go one Facebook much at all, but my timeline is like... really really garbage. Unthinkably low quality posts. I've even started getting posts for Facebook marketplace listings from people I'm not even friends with.
Your FB account data likely still exists and they'll likely still join the two
I don't remember having accepted it!
Now, I wouldn't be surprised if that data was shared anyway before I'd clicked, and that in the end, Facebook only pretended having given user's the choice!
And if Facebook provided me the choice, I would happily revoke my consent.
Now, I wouldn't be surprised if that data was shared anyway before I'd clicked, and that in the end, Facebook only pretended having given user's the choice!
And if Facebook provided me the choice, I would happily revoke my consent.
Still not accepted, muscle memory now to click the "x". It asks me once a week maybe?
I was in the lucky situation that I deleted my FB account already years ago. It was the Christmas before the Cambridge analytica Skandal Hit. My fb account was on sleep for 6 month already by that time and I decided to delete it all. I requested a backup of all my data and then hit the delete button. Seven days later roughly after New Years I was gone from FB. I stopped myself from doing a political post before leaving as I didn’t want to come across a person who things is on a moral high ground whatever. Remember it was before the huge data leek which followed a few month later. I have to add that I only got dragged into the FB bubble because of an employment switch. My company had multiple apps on FB and development and testing was easier with a real profile. I was on FB from 2013 to 2017 or so. And I wasn’t the most active in producing content.
As of WhatsApp. Refused to install the app even before FB bought it. Lucky me was right for once.
As of WhatsApp. Refused to install the app even before FB bought it. Lucky me was right for once.
I don't use any Facebook products and haven't for over a decade. It's nice.
Got fed up clicking it away, deleted the app and moved my family to Signal.
I wasn't using WhatsApp much anyway, so I just deleted my account. My primary IM services are Telegram and VKontakte.
Instagram though... Can't imagine getting off of it anytime soon.
Instagram though... Can't imagine getting off of it anytime soon.
I didn’t for a couple of months and then I changed my phone. When I opened the app for the first time, I could no longer find the option to not accept the terms.
You have accepted.
Yes. In case it wasn't clear: after not being able to find the option to not accept the terms (no "X", "skip", "later", or similar), I consciously clicked to accept the terms.
Nope. I refuse. It has stopped asking me as of late, though.
Oh man, I wish they would stop showing the popup every time I exit a chat. When did it stop?
Still refusing. Can't drop it because my old relatives still use it
Same, I wonder why they stopped.
Implicit opt-in by continuation of use of the services.
You didn't even bother to read it did you?
You didn't even bother to read it did you?
At least in EU, implicit opt-in by use is not recognized and therefore such practice would be illegal.
So perhaps they only continue to nag the users they arbitrarily detect as in jurisdictions where it’s legal to hoist new terms like that?
So perhaps they only continue to nag the users they arbitrarily detect as in jurisdictions where it’s legal to hoist new terms like that?
And what. They get a fine. Pay it. And continue to do shady things.
No, why would I? I don't read whatever dreck Facebook wants to waste my time with, do you?
You are using their service. And you know they like it shady, if they can get away with it.
And they say, thay update their contract. Sounds like a reason for me, to read what it is about, or stop using it.
And they say, thay update their contract. Sounds like a reason for me, to read what it is about, or stop using it.
I deleted my Facebook account years ago. Friends and family remember to reach out when something important is happening. I'd highly recommend it.
Ditched Whatsapp the moment it was bought by Facebook.
Yeah, burned it in lieu of Signal immediately. Was shocked how many bright well-read people I know didn't care enough to switch after I presented them with the news.
Most people don't care. In all fairness my beef with Facebook is their inability to manage user data in addition to their empire of community driven misinformation empire. With some slightly above average googling skills you can find a ton of my personal data. It's more of a principle thing here. But I agree, signal ftw.
Signal did not exist when Facebook acquired WhatsApp though, did it?
TextSecure (text) and Redphone (voice) were the precursors to Signal in 2011 through to 2014. The Whatsapp purchase by facebook happened in 2014.
But the first official release of Signal was June 2014 (which was just the merger of Redphone and textsecure)
*All from Wikipedia correlations and faulty memory :D
But the first official release of Signal was June 2014 (which was just the merger of Redphone and textsecure)
*All from Wikipedia correlations and faulty memory :D
I had meant I switched when the news of the new access to data request started last year.
Never accepted, but they stopped asking lately...
No, I always dismissed it until they had enough backslash and stopped pushing it. I still use whatsapp tho (along with Telegram)
I wonder if the prompt even does anything. I am sure whatsapp servers and facebook servers are like 10 feet from each other .
Still clicking away the once proposed dialogue of Whatsapp to give all my data away to Facebook. I have not accepted it!
No, but <~1m ago it stopped popping up... I really hope they didn’t incorrectly register my consent or anything
You have accepted.
No, deleted WhatsApp and Moved to Signal.
I didn't have to because I'm German and very happy about that. Fuck FB!
I haven't accepted it. Fortunately I don't have to use WhatsApp much.
Yes, accidentally. I thought it would stop working if I disagree.
Yeah, I accepted it. Why, is there something bad in it?
No, but I have a family and my wife and kids may often be using my computer, thus it may be that one of them have accepted the terms and thereby everybody's data gets saved.
I wonder if Facebook and Google and the rest assume it is just one person they are dealing with or if the algorithms they've trained are smart enough to detect that there is a high chance that particular usage patterns strongly imply an individual user.
If so that is to say they have identified profile 1 and profile 2 but have only asked profile 1 for permission and received permission but then continue to store data for profile 1 and 2 and think they are disparate users - would this run afoul of GDPR?
I wonder if Facebook and Google and the rest assume it is just one person they are dealing with or if the algorithms they've trained are smart enough to detect that there is a high chance that particular usage patterns strongly imply an individual user.
If so that is to say they have identified profile 1 and profile 2 but have only asked profile 1 for permission and received permission but then continue to store data for profile 1 and 2 and think they are disparate users - would this run afoul of GDPR?
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Nope.. but it keep nagging every now an then
Here in the UK, I'm protected by the GDPR and by the Consumer Contracts Act.
I was coerced into choosing "Agree" (or whatever the button said) without any other practical option (I accidentally touched it when it appeared for the umpteenth time). I haven't given my consent and so they don't have permission to process my personal data except as strictly necessary to provide me with their messaging service. Whether I dismiss the nag prompt every time or just touch "Agree", the legal effect is exactly the same.
I was coerced into choosing "Agree" (or whatever the button said) without any other practical option (I accidentally touched it when it appeared for the umpteenth time). I haven't given my consent and so they don't have permission to process my personal data except as strictly necessary to provide me with their messaging service. Whether I dismiss the nag prompt every time or just touch "Agree", the legal effect is exactly the same.
Don't have Facebook or WhatsApp.
I haven’t
Same.
I haven’t.
same here
We have a moral obligation to stop using facebook products.
Ask yourself where do you draw the line? If you don’t think facebook has crossed it, then you don’t know enough about facebook.
Ask yourself where do you draw the line? If you don’t think facebook has crossed it, then you don’t know enough about facebook.
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mavhc(1)
jeidz(3)
We have no such moral obligation. Facebook is no better and no worse than a multitude of other companies that trade in attention and data. They've suffered an onslaught of bad PR lately, largely due to their singular success rather then being singularly evil or (on balance) harmful to the world.
A lot of this moral panic about Facebook's effect on society is just a projection of our general angst the democratization of media. A lot of our type of people, squishy liberal nerd types, cheered it on when it was starting, supposing that it will be an improvement over the status quo of pre-2010. Information flow will finally be free, and Evil Gatekeepers won't control it, that sort of stuff. Now that we've been disabused of the notion that this is a good development, we get all uppity.
Turns out your friends and neighbours always liked fake news, and always will. And so do you. Oops.
A lot of this moral panic about Facebook's effect on society is just a projection of our general angst the democratization of media. A lot of our type of people, squishy liberal nerd types, cheered it on when it was starting, supposing that it will be an improvement over the status quo of pre-2010. Information flow will finally be free, and Evil Gatekeepers won't control it, that sort of stuff. Now that we've been disabused of the notion that this is a good development, we get all uppity.
Turns out your friends and neighbours always liked fake news, and always will. And so do you. Oops.
Facebook’s success and ubiquity is what makes it worse than other companies that trade in attention and data.
It’s not a moral panic, the people who run facebook have provably done terrible things. Would other people in their position do those things? Some would, some wouldn’t. There are people who do the right thing, even when it means their company losing a few bucks.
It is our responsibility to speak out against terrible companies like facebook. And if you, like me, work in tech, it is your job to not do terrible things.
If it’s not our responsibility, then it’s no one’s — and if you believe that, you believe in nothing.
It’s not a moral panic, the people who run facebook have provably done terrible things. Would other people in their position do those things? Some would, some wouldn’t. There are people who do the right thing, even when it means their company losing a few bucks.
It is our responsibility to speak out against terrible companies like facebook. And if you, like me, work in tech, it is your job to not do terrible things.
If it’s not our responsibility, then it’s no one’s — and if you believe that, you believe in nothing.
Then pick one and do something about it. Just because there's more than one company doing bad things doesn't mean you get to do nothing about it.
I never had either in the first place.
I have not accepted it and I keep clicking away. And you?