Intimate portraits of a hospital Covid unit from a photojournalist-turned-nurse(npr.org)
npr.org
Intimate portraits of a hospital Covid unit from a photojournalist-turned-nurse
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/12/26/1066395049/intimate-portraits-of-a-hospital-covid-unit-from-a-photojournalist-turned-nurse
155 comments
Should we extend this attitude to everyone else that taxes the healthcare system?
If you got HIV from unprotected sex, should we shame you?
If you’re fat and get diabetes should we?
Etc etc. This is inhumane thinking and shouldn’t be encouraged.
If you got HIV from unprotected sex, should we shame you?
If you’re fat and get diabetes should we?
Etc etc. This is inhumane thinking and shouldn’t be encouraged.
"If you’re fat and get diabetes should we?"
Under crisis standards of care, the fact that you are fat can be used to allow you to die. Likewise, and especially, if you have diabetes, that will be cited as a reason why you were allowed to die. Likewise HIV or hepatitis, or any other health problem that you might have. Any health problem that makes you less than perfect can be cited as a reason why doctors might be allow you to die. Even a person with no known health conditions, but who is simply old, can have their age cited against them under crisis standards of care.
So it is understandable why some of us are angry with those who drove hospital after hospital to crisis standards of care during the later half of this pandemic, when there was a vaccine that could have completely changed the situation.
In a developed nation, we do not expect many situations to happen during out lifetimes that would drive a hospital to crisis standards of care. That some citizens recklessly put themselves into a situation where they could clog up the hospitals, to the point where the hospitals had to invoke crisis standards of care, demonstrates an amoral style of reasoning on their part.
Under crisis standards of care, the fact that you are fat can be used to allow you to die. Likewise, and especially, if you have diabetes, that will be cited as a reason why you were allowed to die. Likewise HIV or hepatitis, or any other health problem that you might have. Any health problem that makes you less than perfect can be cited as a reason why doctors might be allow you to die. Even a person with no known health conditions, but who is simply old, can have their age cited against them under crisis standards of care.
So it is understandable why some of us are angry with those who drove hospital after hospital to crisis standards of care during the later half of this pandemic, when there was a vaccine that could have completely changed the situation.
In a developed nation, we do not expect many situations to happen during out lifetimes that would drive a hospital to crisis standards of care. That some citizens recklessly put themselves into a situation where they could clog up the hospitals, to the point where the hospitals had to invoke crisis standards of care, demonstrates an amoral style of reasoning on their part.
> If you got HIV from unprotected sex, should we shame you?
This is already a matter of medical, policy, religious, and national history, and that story has not yet concluded with the many lives already ended. And if you knowingly expose people to HIV, that is generally both a criminal and civil matter. Meanwhile defiance of masks and avoidance of free vaccines is political patriotism — a brave defense of liberty itself.
This is already a matter of medical, policy, religious, and national history, and that story has not yet concluded with the many lives already ended. And if you knowingly expose people to HIV, that is generally both a criminal and civil matter. Meanwhile defiance of masks and avoidance of free vaccines is political patriotism — a brave defense of liberty itself.
If there were a vaccine against HIV, and an ongoing pandemic overwhelming hospitals, then yes I guess?
> and an ongoing pandemic overwhelming hospitals, then yes I guess?
HIV spreads more slowly so it doesn’t threaten to overwhelm hospitals, at least not in developed nations, but it is an ongoing pandemic which has killed at least 36 million people, including 680k in 2020, and is spread mostly by risky behavioral choices like drugs and unprotected sex. The social cost is incalculable let alone the costs to individuals and families!
So, I think the same principle applies and the same judgement ought to be given if any is given at all. Of course it shouldn’t, because the world is a mad house and we’re all inpatients.
HIV spreads more slowly so it doesn’t threaten to overwhelm hospitals, at least not in developed nations, but it is an ongoing pandemic which has killed at least 36 million people, including 680k in 2020, and is spread mostly by risky behavioral choices like drugs and unprotected sex. The social cost is incalculable let alone the costs to individuals and families!
So, I think the same principle applies and the same judgement ought to be given if any is given at all. Of course it shouldn’t, because the world is a mad house and we’re all inpatients.
> If you got HIV from unprotected sex, should we shame you?
If you vehemently oppose the use of condoms, physically and verbally assault people who try to distribute condoms in areas at high risk for HIV, retweet conspiracy theories about how HIV is not real and condoms were made by evil people for evil purposes, attack the doctors who are trying to treat HIV, etc., then yes: shame on you.
If you vehemently oppose the use of condoms, physically and verbally assault people who try to distribute condoms in areas at high risk for HIV, retweet conspiracy theories about how HIV is not real and condoms were made by evil people for evil purposes, attack the doctors who are trying to treat HIV, etc., then yes: shame on you.
...Maybe?
Not in a dehumanizing way, but cultural norms are sometimes there for a reason. As unfortunate as it is, being overweight is unhealthy, and while I don't think people should be looked at as less than human, they should know that their life choices are frowned upon.
Not in a dehumanizing way, but cultural norms are sometimes there for a reason. As unfortunate as it is, being overweight is unhealthy, and while I don't think people should be looked at as less than human, they should know that their life choices are frowned upon.
> If you got HIV from unprotected sex, should we shame you?
Tangentally related: in some jurisdictions[1], not informing your partner that you have HIV and exposing them to the risk of infection is a criminal offense.
1. The United Kingdom, and New Zealand, if memory serves.
Tangentally related: in some jurisdictions[1], not informing your partner that you have HIV and exposing them to the risk of infection is a criminal offense.
1. The United Kingdom, and New Zealand, if memory serves.
You shift from victim to guilty when there s an easy way out of your mistakes. Yes getting HIV can often be the result of a preventable mistake, but if there was a way out once you got it and you refused again and again to take it to relieve the group tax burden and instead relied on expensive insured medication, I d shame you...
Diabete is frankly unclear since you can get it during childhood and again no way to alleviate it that people arent already massively taking.
Diabete is frankly unclear since you can get it during childhood and again no way to alleviate it that people arent already massively taking.
Are any of those easily helped by a vaccine?
If you expand "vaccine" to "medical interventions", then yes. Bariatric surgeries are quite effective at cutting mortality.
>Long-term studies show the procedures result in significant long-term loss of weight, recovery from diabetes, improvement in cardiovascular risk factors, and a mortality reduction from 40% to 23%.
>Long-term studies show the procedures result in significant long-term loss of weight, recovery from diabetes, improvement in cardiovascular risk factors, and a mortality reduction from 40% to 23%.
Having your stomach stapled is am extreme and expensive surgery requiring multiple doctors and support staff, lots of recovery time and years to fully take effect. It also carries a high risk of serious side effects.
It is nothing like a vaccine.
It is nothing like a vaccine.
[deleted]
It’s a wee bit different to aid and abet an ongoing global pandemic.
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HIV and obesity have both been called epidemics, so it's a fair comparison.
I can't catch HIV or obesity by sitting next to someone on a train, so is it really?
> obesity
https://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/25/health/25cnd-fat.html
You might be able to in the sense that it normalizes it. It's a little like how suicides can be "contagious."
https://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/25/health/25cnd-fat.html
You might be able to in the sense that it normalizes it. It's a little like how suicides can be "contagious."
Actually you can. They might be eating a sugary dessert, and then you think "mmm, I'd like one of those".
And the person might not even need to be there physically, they could just be an image.
Do we need to publicly shame and ostracise employees of all advertising and marketing companies?
All ice-cream manufacturers?
What about smoking? Smoking kills 10 million per year, COVID is a pittance by comparison. Should smokers wear a yellow cigarette badge to distinguish them from others?
1 million die from the effects of second hand smoke - which can come off of clothes, even imperceptibly. Best to know about it, and give them a wide berth. Eg, probably a good idea ban them from going into shops at all. And from buying food, starve them out of the habit, eh?
Do remember here, COVID is NOTHING compared to smoking.
That is, by supporting such measures against COVID and not against smoking or any other preventable cause of death, you're effectively a "murderer".
As such, I'll be giving you and folks like you a wide berth myself, though I wouldn't go as far as restricting your ability to feed yourself.
No need to thank me, it's just common human decency.
And the person might not even need to be there physically, they could just be an image.
Do we need to publicly shame and ostracise employees of all advertising and marketing companies?
All ice-cream manufacturers?
What about smoking? Smoking kills 10 million per year, COVID is a pittance by comparison. Should smokers wear a yellow cigarette badge to distinguish them from others?
1 million die from the effects of second hand smoke - which can come off of clothes, even imperceptibly. Best to know about it, and give them a wide berth. Eg, probably a good idea ban them from going into shops at all. And from buying food, starve them out of the habit, eh?
Do remember here, COVID is NOTHING compared to smoking.
That is, by supporting such measures against COVID and not against smoking or any other preventable cause of death, you're effectively a "murderer".
As such, I'll be giving you and folks like you a wide berth myself, though I wouldn't go as far as restricting your ability to feed yourself.
No need to thank me, it's just common human decency.
> Should smokers wear a yellow cigarette badge to distinguish them from others?
Please put the nazi card back into the deck. You and I both know that we are not in nazi germany, nor is asking people to get a jab (and to accept that their actions - or inactions - have consequences) even remotely close to the plight of the Jews during the Holocaust.
I think the rest of your comment is worth responding to, and I will do so in a separate comment. However this is such an inappropriate comment that it deserves its own reply. I've linked some resources below where you can learn more about the Holocaust because it's clear that you're at least a little bit uninformed.
US Holocaust memorial museum - https://www.ushmm.org/learn/holocaust
National WWII museum - https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/holocaust
This one's geared towards educators (and unfortunately requires you to register) but has some excellent resources if you're willing to work through that - https://education.mjhnyc.org/
Please put the nazi card back into the deck. You and I both know that we are not in nazi germany, nor is asking people to get a jab (and to accept that their actions - or inactions - have consequences) even remotely close to the plight of the Jews during the Holocaust.
I think the rest of your comment is worth responding to, and I will do so in a separate comment. However this is such an inappropriate comment that it deserves its own reply. I've linked some resources below where you can learn more about the Holocaust because it's clear that you're at least a little bit uninformed.
US Holocaust memorial museum - https://www.ushmm.org/learn/holocaust
National WWII museum - https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/holocaust
This one's geared towards educators (and unfortunately requires you to register) but has some excellent resources if you're willing to work through that - https://education.mjhnyc.org/
Thanks for the "education". Your claim of my "ignorance" essentially insults my entire existence. I can guarantee that I personally know a fuck-tonne more about this issue than you ever can.
For your education, look up the several videos of holocaust survivors, and those who lives through other oppressive dictatorships, speaking out against what they perceive as a present-day repeat of exactly the conditions that lead to those horrors.
For example, any recent interview with Vera Sharav or any recent speech/press conference by Romanian MEP Cristian Terhes. (And if you don't find YT serving those up go to bitchute or odysee.)
And do bear in mind please, that one of the defining characteristics of the path to this level of societal degredation, is precisely that the majority of people at the time do not believe it could possibly be happening, and mock those who say it is, whilst simultaneously encouraging their silencing and censorship.
For your education, look up the several videos of holocaust survivors, and those who lives through other oppressive dictatorships, speaking out against what they perceive as a present-day repeat of exactly the conditions that lead to those horrors.
For example, any recent interview with Vera Sharav or any recent speech/press conference by Romanian MEP Cristian Terhes. (And if you don't find YT serving those up go to bitchute or odysee.)
And do bear in mind please, that one of the defining characteristics of the path to this level of societal degredation, is precisely that the majority of people at the time do not believe it could possibly be happening, and mock those who say it is, whilst simultaneously encouraging their silencing and censorship.
> Actually you can. They might be eating a sugary dessert, and then you think "mmm, I'd like one of those".
Ok? This doesn't _make_ anyone obese, while sitting on a train next to a COVID+ person gives you a pretty high likelihood of getting COVID.
That is, unless there's some new research that shows that simply seeing sugary deserts can turn people obese.
> Do we need to publicly shame and ostracise employees of all advertising and marketing companies?
??????
> All ice-cream manufacturers?
Should they stop marketing towards children? Absolutely. Again, I'm not entirely sure what you're going for here so I'm really just inserting a suggestion.
> What about smoking? Smoking kills 10 million per year, COVID is a pittance by comparison.
In the US but we have effectively banned indoor smoking on those grounds. In ATX you're not even allowed to smoke within (if I'm remembering the numbers correctly) 30 ft of an openable window of a business. Because it directly impacts people's health. Like spreading COVID does.
> 1 million die from the effects of second hand smoke - which can come off of clothes, even imperceptibly.
That's terrible, we should curb smoking if this is proven to be the case.
> Best to know about it, and give them a wide berth. Eg, probably a good idea ban them from going into shops at all. And from buying food, starve them out of the habit, eh?
what the fuck are you on about? root was talking about how people need to accept that they've contributed to the pandemic through their inaction, not advocating for barring people from shops. that's ridiculous.
> As such, I'll be giving you and folks like you a wide berth myself
I'm impressed- you've seemingly judged my entire character based on a single-sentence comment. Have you considered pursuing a career as a judge?
> though I wouldn't go as far as restricting your ability to feed yourself.
how gracious
Ok? This doesn't _make_ anyone obese, while sitting on a train next to a COVID+ person gives you a pretty high likelihood of getting COVID.
That is, unless there's some new research that shows that simply seeing sugary deserts can turn people obese.
> Do we need to publicly shame and ostracise employees of all advertising and marketing companies?
??????
> All ice-cream manufacturers?
Should they stop marketing towards children? Absolutely. Again, I'm not entirely sure what you're going for here so I'm really just inserting a suggestion.
> What about smoking? Smoking kills 10 million per year, COVID is a pittance by comparison.
In the US but we have effectively banned indoor smoking on those grounds. In ATX you're not even allowed to smoke within (if I'm remembering the numbers correctly) 30 ft of an openable window of a business. Because it directly impacts people's health. Like spreading COVID does.
> 1 million die from the effects of second hand smoke - which can come off of clothes, even imperceptibly.
That's terrible, we should curb smoking if this is proven to be the case.
> Best to know about it, and give them a wide berth. Eg, probably a good idea ban them from going into shops at all. And from buying food, starve them out of the habit, eh?
what the fuck are you on about? root was talking about how people need to accept that they've contributed to the pandemic through their inaction, not advocating for barring people from shops. that's ridiculous.
> As such, I'll be giving you and folks like you a wide berth myself
I'm impressed- you've seemingly judged my entire character based on a single-sentence comment. Have you considered pursuing a career as a judge?
> though I wouldn't go as far as restricting your ability to feed yourself.
how gracious
Advertising and marketing are forms of social manipulation. If they didn't work, and were not effective, they would not be used.
A thought-experiment: how many people would be obese if it were impossible for manufacturers of unhealthy foods to market their products to anyone?
Look at the obesity levels in countries that such manufacturers exclude from their marketing campaigns.
The point is that advertising makes people do things they otherwise wouldn't have done. That's kind of the whole point of it.
It's an entirely valid and important argument for something such as obesity, that advertisers and manufacturers of obesity and diabetes-linked products, may play a major, even dominant and causal role in those diseases proliferation. How could people become obese, for example, to take it to an extreme, if there was nothing but healthy fruit, vegetables lean meat and water to buy - anywhere?
If you're a coder or engineer you'll know you find the faults of a system by pushing it to its extremes. Society/health and the struggles we face in those arenas are no different.
As for the pandemic, there are countries in "free Western Europe" that have violently arrested people for attempting to go and buy food. I've seen elderly assaulted, who - with trembling hands, hold their medical exemptions to merciless and uncaring store security, and a hopelessly split society pouring derision either upon the woman or the security staff. It's up to people such as ourselves to pick up the pieces.
These scenes are familiar to some of us, and people such as yourself discounting it is heartbreaking and frustrating.
Spend a little time rooting out what it is you're "not supposed to see". Maybe your perspective will shift. It's all there, if you're willing to look.
A thought-experiment: how many people would be obese if it were impossible for manufacturers of unhealthy foods to market their products to anyone?
Look at the obesity levels in countries that such manufacturers exclude from their marketing campaigns.
The point is that advertising makes people do things they otherwise wouldn't have done. That's kind of the whole point of it.
It's an entirely valid and important argument for something such as obesity, that advertisers and manufacturers of obesity and diabetes-linked products, may play a major, even dominant and causal role in those diseases proliferation. How could people become obese, for example, to take it to an extreme, if there was nothing but healthy fruit, vegetables lean meat and water to buy - anywhere?
If you're a coder or engineer you'll know you find the faults of a system by pushing it to its extremes. Society/health and the struggles we face in those arenas are no different.
As for the pandemic, there are countries in "free Western Europe" that have violently arrested people for attempting to go and buy food. I've seen elderly assaulted, who - with trembling hands, hold their medical exemptions to merciless and uncaring store security, and a hopelessly split society pouring derision either upon the woman or the security staff. It's up to people such as ourselves to pick up the pieces.
These scenes are familiar to some of us, and people such as yourself discounting it is heartbreaking and frustrating.
Spend a little time rooting out what it is you're "not supposed to see". Maybe your perspective will shift. It's all there, if you're willing to look.
Triple vaxxed, here to play the devil's advocate. Stories like these are not to please you, or to recognize the person. But telling them is important for unvaccinated people to see. I'm really hoping that my unvaccinated family members see this kind of story from someone they follow and trust before it's too late for them.
KennyBlanken(2)
I thought vaccinated or unvaccinated you can still infect others? Mainly it’s vaccinating yourself to have a less severe outcome if you do become infected is what I’ve been seeing be told.
The vaccines don’t stop you getting it, but:
1. They reduce the chances you will get it because they increase the chances your system will fight it off before it gets established.
2. They reduce the time during which you are infectious, and the amount of the virus in your system that you output during that time. As a result they decreases the chances of you infecting others.
The reduction for the original variants was very significant. Vaccinated people were very unlikely to infect anyone else prior to Delta. With Delta the benefits were significantly reduced. With Omicron the benefits in infectiousness are again much reduced.
So for most of the last year the vaccines were a vital tool in reducing the spread of the virus as well as protecting the vaccinated. Now Omicron is so infectious the effect is much lower. Of course the vaccines do still seem to be real life savers against Omicron, and avoiding getting sick yourself still protects others by reducing the load on the health care system.
1. They reduce the chances you will get it because they increase the chances your system will fight it off before it gets established.
2. They reduce the time during which you are infectious, and the amount of the virus in your system that you output during that time. As a result they decreases the chances of you infecting others.
The reduction for the original variants was very significant. Vaccinated people were very unlikely to infect anyone else prior to Delta. With Delta the benefits were significantly reduced. With Omicron the benefits in infectiousness are again much reduced.
So for most of the last year the vaccines were a vital tool in reducing the spread of the virus as well as protecting the vaccinated. Now Omicron is so infectious the effect is much lower. Of course the vaccines do still seem to be real life savers against Omicron, and avoiding getting sick yourself still protects others by reducing the load on the health care system.
> They reduce the time during which you are infectious, and the amount of the virus in your system that you output during that time.
Transmission potential of vaccinated and unvaccinated persons infected with the SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant in a federal prison, July—August 2021 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.11.12.21265796v...
> A total of 978 specimens were provided by 95 participants, of whom 78 (82%) were fully vaccinated and 17 (18%) were not fully vaccinated. No significant differences were detected in duration of RT-PCR positivity among fully vaccinated participants (median: 13 days) versus those not fully vaccinated (median: 13 days; p=0.50), or in duration of culture positivity (medians: 5 days and 5 days; p=0.29).
Transmission potential of vaccinated and unvaccinated persons infected with the SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant in a federal prison, July—August 2021 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.11.12.21265796v...
> A total of 978 specimens were provided by 95 participants, of whom 78 (82%) were fully vaccinated and 17 (18%) were not fully vaccinated. No significant differences were detected in duration of RT-PCR positivity among fully vaccinated participants (median: 13 days) versus those not fully vaccinated (median: 13 days; p=0.50), or in duration of culture positivity (medians: 5 days and 5 days; p=0.29).
I did say the benefits from vaccination in infectiousness with Delta is much reduced. They do seem to still reduce the time during which you are infectious though.
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/231557/covid-vaccines-effect...
I’m not entirely surprised there are studies with small numbers of participants in which it doesn’t show up.
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/231557/covid-vaccines-effect...
I’m not entirely surprised there are studies with small numbers of participants in which it doesn’t show up.
That's correct, you can infect other people if you're vaccinated, and you can still get infected even if you're triple vaccinated. Break-through cases are very common, as witnessed in highly vaccinated nations that are still struggling with huge outbreaks.
Your conclusion is essentially the right one, the leading vaccines (particularly the mRNA vaccines) can dramatically lower the risk of a bad outcome if you catch SARS2. They do not stop the spead of the virus and do not ensure you won't catch it.
Your conclusion is essentially the right one, the leading vaccines (particularly the mRNA vaccines) can dramatically lower the risk of a bad outcome if you catch SARS2. They do not stop the spead of the virus and do not ensure you won't catch it.
Why does everyone seem so obstinately binary on this topic? They slow the spread. They make you less likely to get infected and to spread it. Few things in medicine are 100%. This is nothing new. And even a small reduction in the ability of a vaccinated person to spread the virus makes a huge difference. In fact, it could likely make enough difference to bring the R0 of COVID below R1.
[deleted]
the lack of empathy, and I'm talking about true empathy that results in action when it comes to healthcare workers is still incredible.
The amount of stress physically and mentally that nurses and doctors have been put through, by being exposed to covid themselves from the beginning, being separated from family, seeing people die every day is nuts.
And the amount of people still who basically talk about this like "oh the hospitals aren't even full yet, it's not that bad", and have done so repeatedly really is just plain sad. Also goes for the food workers and delivery people and anyone else who keeps things running.
The amount of stress physically and mentally that nurses and doctors have been put through, by being exposed to covid themselves from the beginning, being separated from family, seeing people die every day is nuts.
And the amount of people still who basically talk about this like "oh the hospitals aren't even full yet, it's not that bad", and have done so repeatedly really is just plain sad. Also goes for the food workers and delivery people and anyone else who keeps things running.
Honestly, I only hate the ones who don’t see the error of their ways. The ones who realize they’re dumb and make changes should be forgiven. Imagine if there were no room for forgiveness on anything, then you get a calcification of beliefs and that’s not great. Forgiveness is what allows people to change their minds.
This nurse is taking quite a different approach from yours. These photos are empathic and respectful and takes humans as they are, while still getting the message across. I don’t think your mindset would lead to the same quality of journalism.
KennyBlanken(1)
As of the middle of November 2021, about 30% of nurses had not gotten the vaccine, despite its widespread availability.
Does your condemnation extend to them?
Does your condemnation extend to them?
My condemnation extends to nurses; no one is beyond criticism. Infact, a surprising number of nurses have insane ideas - more than you'd think. To wit, at my local hospital, a doctor found an abrasion on a patient's back which was later attributed to a "healing crystal" supplied - and installed - a few days before, by an attending nurse.
How many of those do you recon had already been exposed before vaccine availability?
These people were putting their neck out almost a full year before the first shot was administeres. Chances are, many of them already acquired immunity via this route.
These people were putting their neck out almost a full year before the first shot was administeres. Chances are, many of them already acquired immunity via this route.
I wish people did not disregard natural immunity. There are quite many who do. Anyways... for how long does natural immunity last?
I don't think we know yet with much certainty. But I'll tell you this, it's a lot easier to get a vaccine booster than a natural immunity booster.
Not to mention, the body of evidence that point to the vaccines providing super-human immunity (i.e. better than natural) continues to grow.
Much of the original "natural immunity is the best" idea came from a single Israeli study.
Not to mention, the body of evidence that point to the vaccines providing super-human immunity (i.e. better than natural) continues to grow.
Much of the original "natural immunity is the best" idea came from a single Israeli study.
Frankly, people who buy into anti-vaxx ideology are victims of mass propaganda campaigns. And all of us suffer because of those mass propaganda campaigns.
Do you think it's a propaganda campaign, or maybe it's just a logical extension of longstanding talking points. What happened with Trump and the vaccine (he got booed for saying he got boosted) shows that the movement has outgrown even him, so it's basically self perpetuating.
Trump was never really anti-vax. What Trump did to make all of this so much worse was foment distrust of the media and experts.
Must be nice to live in your fictional alternative universe. First the massive propaganda, enforced by governments, media and tech companies is in favor of the vaccination. There is literally no mainstream media or government on earth I can think of that are pushing an anti-vaccine agenda.
Secondly if the vaccine worked, it would have stopped the epidemic already. It didn't made a dent even in countries with 90% vaccinated. This single fact should one think. And think again. The "anti-vaxxers" are the scapegoats of political and health policies that don't work.
Vaccines have saved countless thousands (millions?) from hospitalisation and death, and allowed us to open up without (completely) overwhelming our health systems (or whatever it is you have in the US).
No vaccine is perfect, and herd immunity (like we have for measles) would require nearly 100% coverage in all age groups - assuming it would even be possible for a virus like Covid.
Vaccines could have been used with NPIs instead of in place of NPIs, which could have given us a chance of containing Covid completely. Unfortunately, not least because of the anti science voices you seem to have been listening to, this was not possible.
No vaccine is perfect, and herd immunity (like we have for measles) would require nearly 100% coverage in all age groups - assuming it would even be possible for a virus like Covid.
Vaccines could have been used with NPIs instead of in place of NPIs, which could have given us a chance of containing Covid completely. Unfortunately, not least because of the anti science voices you seem to have been listening to, this was not possible.
How do you know that the Government would not have done those things either way? The unvaccinated do make a good scapegoat though. Plus, I think you are greatly overestimating the vaccine's efficacy of reducing transmission, especially when it comes to newer variants. There are also many people who pose little to no risk AND are not vaccinated.
As far as the unvaccinated getting hospitalized goes, well... do you have this amount of hatred towards the obese, too?
Regardless, your comment came across as pretty hostile, you seem to have a lot of hatred.
As far as the unvaccinated getting hospitalized goes, well... do you have this amount of hatred towards the obese, too?
Regardless, your comment came across as pretty hostile, you seem to have a lot of hatred.
I would be very, very angry at obese people if the cure for obesity was a tiny needle prick with almost no side effects. But the reality is, obesity is a difficult problem to overcome and requires education, effort, and time.
[deleted]
What do you think constitutes prevention, and treatment for obesity?
I'm not sure if I understand the question.
Nutrition education, access to healthy foods and the means to purchase them would be prevention. Then for treatment, long term dieting and exercise as well as systems to support that.
Nutrition education, access to healthy foods and the means to purchase them would be prevention. Then for treatment, long term dieting and exercise as well as systems to support that.
Prevention - eat less
Treatment - eat less.
You should be very angry at them. If they eat less, they would not be such a burden on our health care right now.
If you are not angry, then you are very selective about it, and you are just cherry picking... double standard, and so forth.
Treatment - eat less.
You should be very angry at them. If they eat less, they would not be such a burden on our health care right now.
If you are not angry, then you are very selective about it, and you are just cherry picking... double standard, and so forth.
I don't feel this way. It's clearly nobody's fault and I have yet to see a convincing chain of reasoning that faults any particular person or group of people for an ongoing natural disaster. Any attempts at doing so assume a nearly infallible vaccine. Stop watching so much news if it upsets you this much and fills you with hate for healthy people.
Luckily most vaccinated are not this empathy lacking self righteous...
No on cares about your forgiveness
In 10 years we will still be analyzing the health implications of the vaccine. And the effects on the health system
Also the unvaccinated tax not only is pay for the public health system, they are also pay for the vaccines, that give billions in profit to the pharmaceuticals, and has little to no benefit for all under 50
In 10 years we will still be analyzing the health implications of the vaccine. And the effects on the health system
Also the unvaccinated tax not only is pay for the public health system, they are also pay for the vaccines, that give billions in profit to the pharmaceuticals, and has little to no benefit for all under 50
Its just a new religion, and the believers in it violently aggressively hate the non-members, which is scary to see.
We as a race haven't eliminated a coronavirus yet, and we probably are not anytime soon, and hatred is starting against anyone weak enough to get bullied, because someone has to be made to pay. Gonna be a rough winter.
We as a race haven't eliminated a coronavirus yet, and we probably are not anytime soon, and hatred is starting against anyone weak enough to get bullied, because someone has to be made to pay. Gonna be a rough winter.
I can’t support this mentality at all.
In any case these people are still humans. They have the same right to life as we all do.
In any case these people are still humans. They have the same right to life as we all do.
"Crisis Standards of Care" are what literally allows the hospital to make a triage decision to give better care for the people who are more likely to survive.
That’s fine, but letting unvaccinated people suffer or die is a discriminatory position.
If there is a underlying medical condition that is present then sure I agree. Everyone is allowed to make mistakes and shouldn’t be left to die because of it.
Let’s stop hating each other, love everyone even the anti-vaxers.
If there is a underlying medical condition that is present then sure I agree. Everyone is allowed to make mistakes and shouldn’t be left to die because of it.
Let’s stop hating each other, love everyone even the anti-vaxers.
The "shouldn't" can be ignored when the hospital is at 100% capacity; when in crisis, things no longer happen as they "should". Even more so, some "shoulds" must be ignored, or you'll have patients queuing up outside the hospital.
Unvaccinated people literally have smaller chance of survival.
Whether vaccination status is to be included in the triage point score is an ongoing debate -- it currently isn't: https://www.denverpost.com/2021/11/21/vaccination-status-col...
Unvaccinated people literally have smaller chance of survival.
Whether vaccination status is to be included in the triage point score is an ongoing debate -- it currently isn't: https://www.denverpost.com/2021/11/21/vaccination-status-col...
Yes, this needs to be said. What the unvaccinated are doing right now is conducing a DDOS attack on the whole medical system. This is going to cost them dearly, but everybody else will also pay a steep price. Is it really your freedom, if other people have to pay for it with their lives?
malchow(2)
Should we be similarly condemning speeders, drunk drivers, obese people, etc., for hogging up hospital beds as a result of their reckless behavior?
>speeders, drunk drivers
Unsafe and drunk drivers are quite condemned.
Obese people don't normally make hospital beds unavailable. If there was a safe, easy to take and effective vaccine against obesity, but they refused to take it, they would be condemned much more.
Plus none of them can infect others with their affliction.
Unsafe and drunk drivers are quite condemned.
Obese people don't normally make hospital beds unavailable. If there was a safe, easy to take and effective vaccine against obesity, but they refused to take it, they would be condemned much more.
Plus none of them can infect others with their affliction.
> If there was a safe, easy to take and effective vaccine against obesity, but they refused to take it, they would be condemned much more.
Seriously? What about the good ol' "eat less" (excluding the rare cases where it is related to metabolism disorders)?
Seriously? What about the good ol' "eat less" (excluding the rare cases where it is related to metabolism disorders)?
In what world is "eat less" as easy or effective as getting a shot?
Losing weight is quite hard and keeping it off is next to impossible, given that very few succeed.
In case you're serious, you can read this. https://slimemoldtimemold.com/2021/07/11/a-chemical-hunger-p...
Losing weight is quite hard and keeping it off is next to impossible, given that very few succeed.
In case you're serious, you can read this. https://slimemoldtimemold.com/2021/07/11/a-chemical-hunger-p...
Vaccination is used for prevention. Eating less is also prevention (or would you rather prefer "not eating a lot"?)... from getting obese. Once you are obese, eating less also could serve as a treatment; you lose weight.
Maybe, but it's not easy at all unlike getting a vaccine. Otherwise we wouldn't be seeing a global epidemic of obesity. One has to eat less for a very long amount of time.
Are obese people starting off as obese though? I would think that they have to eat a lot to become obese to begin with, which suggests that eating less prevents one from getting obese[1].
Eating less is both prevention and treatment.
[1] Excluding metabolic disorders
Eating less is both prevention and treatment.
[1] Excluding metabolic disorders
[deleted]
What a poor attempt at causing a false choice logical fallacy.
Drunk drivers are some of the most hated people in society.
Obesity can occur without own responsibility or at least be much more difficult to deal with for some people. It also doesn't infect people that walk past.
Drunk drivers are some of the most hated people in society.
Obesity can occur without own responsibility or at least be much more difficult to deal with for some people. It also doesn't infect people that walk past.
> condemning speeders, drunk drivers
Yes, absolutely, 100%. There's a reason we have laws against those things: to condemn that behavior.
> obese people
The causes of the obesity pandemic in the developed world are too complicated to blanket say that all obese people are "reckless". Certainly some are though.
Yes, absolutely, 100%. There's a reason we have laws against those things: to condemn that behavior.
> obese people
The causes of the obesity pandemic in the developed world are too complicated to blanket say that all obese people are "reckless". Certainly some are though.
smokers ? skateboarders ? alcohol drinkers ? rough sport amateurs ? People who don't exercise enough ? Those who eat junk food on their coach the whole day ?
Don't you see where this is going ? Do you really want the government to dictate every single decision in your life, as soon as they're deemed "dangeours for the rest of the society" in one way or another ?
Don't you see where this is going ? Do you really want the government to dictate every single decision in your life, as soon as they're deemed "dangeours for the rest of the society" in one way or another ?
None of these are infectious with a doubling rate of 2.5-4 days.
Well, if anything the past two months has taught us, is that vaccination rate in countries has zero impact on the number of cases of the next wave.
That certainly was not true pre-omicron. Here I’m the UK even with Delta, widespread early vaccination made a huge difference. Life here largely returned to normal for much of the past year with very low hospitalisation rates. It saved huge numbers of lives, with a relatively open society.
Now with omicron it’s spreading so fast that even though it seems to be less likely to put you in hospital, it’s infecting so many people the numbers in hospital are shooting up anyway. Vaccination is still saving huge numbers of lives here, but we are phasing in some limited lockdown rules as they become necessary.
On a personal note I caught the virus 2 weeks ago. I was pretty sick for a few days, but shook it off after a week thanks to being fully vaccinated. The rest of my family had it too and my reaction was the worst. I hate to think what it would have been like if I hadn’t had the vaccine working for me as well. I’d probably be dead.
Now with omicron it’s spreading so fast that even though it seems to be less likely to put you in hospital, it’s infecting so many people the numbers in hospital are shooting up anyway. Vaccination is still saving huge numbers of lives here, but we are phasing in some limited lockdown rules as they become necessary.
On a personal note I caught the virus 2 weeks ago. I was pretty sick for a few days, but shook it off after a week thanks to being fully vaccinated. The rest of my family had it too and my reaction was the worst. I hate to think what it would have been like if I hadn’t had the vaccine working for me as well. I’d probably be dead.
Do you have a source for numbers in hospital shooting up? I normally check here: https://www.travellingtabby.com/uk-coronavirus-tracker/
That’s a lot lower than I realised. I was relying on what is probably only a local change. Looks like the vaccines are doing an even better job overall than I was aware. Thanks.
I definitely think there will be more pressure on the system due to staff absences that isn’t represented in any of those graphs. It would be good to have some visibility of that - actual hospital capacity vs used capacity or something like that.
there's also the possibility that omikron is in itself much milder
You're making a lot of assumptions, there.
It would likely have been worse if you weren't vaccinated, but not necessarily. It would almost certainly not killed you.
You just need to remember to add 'probably' or 'possibly' in front of most of your statements. People will accept them more, and your mind will be clearer and more rational.
It would likely have been worse if you weren't vaccinated, but not necessarily. It would almost certainly not killed you.
You just need to remember to add 'probably' or 'possibly' in front of most of your statements. People will accept them more, and your mind will be clearer and more rational.
I did say probably. There were two nights when I was gasping for air and hardly slept, it was very distressing. I’m not trying to exaggerate anything, that’s just how I feel about it.
I highly doubt you have data showing that. If you do, I'd be very interested in seeing it.
At the very least though, the vaccination rate has a large effect on hospitalizations and deaths.
At the very least though, the vaccination rate has a large effect on hospitalizations and deaths.
That's not what we've learned.
Drunk and other reckless drivers are already breaking laws, for which many do suffer the consequences personally.
As to the obese and immuno-compromised also ending up in hospitals, many were born with a much higher than average risk for their conditions. Getting vaccinated is likely much easier than maintaining a healthy weight in this age of industrial "food" or being born without a high risk condition.
As to the obese and immuno-compromised also ending up in hospitals, many were born with a much higher than average risk for their conditions. Getting vaccinated is likely much easier than maintaining a healthy weight in this age of industrial "food" or being born without a high risk condition.
Speeders and drunk drivers don't overwhelm hospital capacity because there aren't enough of them, and the injuries they cause are usually physical trauma that usual doesn't require as much resources to treat as does COVID.
Obese people don't overwhelm hospital capacity because it is highly variable how long it takes for obesity to result in something that puts you in the hospital. Moderately obese people lose on average about 3 years of life. As far as hospital capacity goes the impact is that the people handling long term capacity planning have to change their forecasts to call for a little more capacity a little sooner.
Obese people don't overwhelm hospital capacity because it is highly variable how long it takes for obesity to result in something that puts you in the hospital. Moderately obese people lose on average about 3 years of life. As far as hospital capacity goes the impact is that the people handling long term capacity planning have to change their forecasts to call for a little more capacity a little sooner.
It's surprising it's only 3 years, and that is for men. For women it's even less. Most people if surveyed would guess figures like 10 years or more, but as it turns out, obesity just is not as big of a killer as the media hype would have one believe.
Already two one word responses of "yes". I have to also echo the "yes" comments given here. Yes, obese people do deserve stigma/condemnation as their condition is not victimless.
Yes
Simple solution: if you refuse vaccination for a non-medical reason and require treatment for COVID, you pay out of pocket. No insurance, no medicare, no medicaid.
Best of all isn't personal responsibility a classical conservative thing? Don't want to do something simple and free to keep yourself out of the hospital? Fine, but you get to pay for it.
Of course they will just go bankrupt and we'll end up paying for it anyway, but at least it will send a message.
Could be extended to other forms of adherence to flagrant health quackery. I have zero sympathy for this insanity anymore. If you get your health information from YouTube you are an idiot.
Best of all isn't personal responsibility a classical conservative thing? Don't want to do something simple and free to keep yourself out of the hospital? Fine, but you get to pay for it.
Of course they will just go bankrupt and we'll end up paying for it anyway, but at least it will send a message.
Could be extended to other forms of adherence to flagrant health quackery. I have zero sympathy for this insanity anymore. If you get your health information from YouTube you are an idiot.
Where does that line end? Smoking-related diseases? Obesity related presentations? Extreme sports injuries? Drunk driving crashes? Drug overdoses? Unwanted pregnancies?
There’s a whole lot of reasons people end up in the hospital, plenty of which someone will conclude “well, that was more stupid than I’m comfortable paying for”, and having to do a full circumstances checkup to figure out which price and to whom to charge seems…problematic.
There’s a whole lot of reasons people end up in the hospital, plenty of which someone will conclude “well, that was more stupid than I’m comfortable paying for”, and having to do a full circumstances checkup to figure out which price and to whom to charge seems…problematic.
Fun fact, there are insurance exemptions and penalties for at least a few of the things you've listed. Your jurisdiction & policy may vary, but where I live, smoking can increase your insurance rates and make you ineligible for things like kidney transplants; injuries sustained while intoxicated are considered at-fault and aren't insured. I think that includes overdoses. People who engage in extreme sports are encouraged to get specific life insurance because most policies don't cover wanton recklessness. Unwanted pregnancy? Not where I live, but anti-abortion laws are coming fast and furious across the US, and yes, children are extremely expensive and entirely your responsibility.
The unresearched whataboutisms in this thread are truly something else.
The unresearched whataboutisms in this thread are truly something else.
Didn’t realize unwanted pregnancies were overwhelming the hospital system.
> Where does that line end? Smoking-related diseases? Obesity related presentations? Extreme sports injuries? Drunk driving crashes? Drug overdoses? Unwanted pregnancies?
With the exception of drunk driving, the others do not directly pose an immediate risk to others.
With the exception of drunk driving, the others do not directly pose an immediate risk to others.
But they all do take hospital beds with their stupidity so to speak just like anti vaxxers. Especially the late phenomena of fat positivity needs more criticism, statistics show the pandemic is largely pandemic of anti vaxxers and obese - that's the reality.
> How many kids lost (and continue to be deprived of) the single safe place they could learn or get a decent meal when in-person schools shut down?
Given that we're the ~only country in the world who insisted on kicking kids out of school long after it was shown that schools pose miniscule risk, this strikes me as a profoundly disingenuous remark.
Kids weren't deprived of education because someone refused to get a vaccine; they were deprived of education because we overreacted.
Given that we're the ~only country in the world who insisted on kicking kids out of school long after it was shown that schools pose miniscule risk, this strikes me as a profoundly disingenuous remark.
Kids weren't deprived of education because someone refused to get a vaccine; they were deprived of education because we overreacted.
>> Given that we're the ~only country in the world
Well you're not the only country on the internet so...which country are you referring to? And how do you define "long after it was shown that schools pose miniscule risk"?
Seems to me many countries did this for a long time and at least in my country cases spike when schools open and infections spread to older family members. This is visible both in cases/deaths correlating with school reopenings + from what I've seen anecdotally.
Well you're not the only country on the internet so...which country are you referring to? And how do you define "long after it was shown that schools pose miniscule risk"?
Seems to me many countries did this for a long time and at least in my country cases spike when schools open and infections spread to older family members. This is visible both in cases/deaths correlating with school reopenings + from what I've seen anecdotally.
> country cases spike when schools open and infections spread to older family members.
There have been multiple studies showing that this isn't true. The evidence is simply overwhelming now.
https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/01/three-st...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10235165/Teachers-N...
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/20/opinion/omicron-schools-d...
Your feelings and perceptions of correlations are irrelevant and hopelessly confounded.
There have been multiple studies showing that this isn't true. The evidence is simply overwhelming now.
https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/01/three-st...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10235165/Teachers-N...
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/20/opinion/omicron-schools-d...
Your feelings and perceptions of correlations are irrelevant and hopelessly confounded.
There’s a lot of nuance missing from this. Schools pose minimal risk when appropriate measures are taken. These measures are frequently not taken, a friend of mine just caught Covid from the school she works at last week. Masking and distancing are semi enforced, but the biggest issue is kids are being sent to school sick repeatedly. Parents have relied on and feel entitled to schools as free childcare, sometimes without much choice if their jobs are at risk. Framing the school closings as an overreaction to a minimal risk is incorrect and dangerous.
One of the teachers at my old high school died from covid a few months ago. She was in her 40s and left a few children without a mother. She most likely caught it at school from one of the kids that was mostly asymptomatic.
And apparently her natural immunity wasn't enough because she had caught COVID a year prior, also from school.
It's too bad she listened to all the idiots that convinced her that she didn't need a vaccine because natural immunity was best or that she was safe at school because kids don't really spread it. Had she listened to the actual experts, she likely would have lived and her children would still have a mother.
And apparently her natural immunity wasn't enough because she had caught COVID a year prior, also from school.
It's too bad she listened to all the idiots that convinced her that she didn't need a vaccine because natural immunity was best or that she was safe at school because kids don't really spread it. Had she listened to the actual experts, she likely would have lived and her children would still have a mother.
No. Schools pose minimal risk, period. There have been many studies, across countries around the world, that say the same thing. There was a big study from the UK in 2020 -- prior to vaccination -- which showed that teachers under age 65 have an equivalent or lower risk of death as any other job:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10235165/Teachers-N...
Meanwhile, there's no evidence for the "appropriate measures" (whatever those are) that you're using to cast allusions on the safety of schools. There's simply no evidence base to defend the claim that schools are unsafe, and a substantial evidence base showing the opposite.
Want to give elderly teachers leave or early retirement? Sure, fine. But especially after vaccination, the rest is complete theater.
> a friend of mine just caught Covid from the school she works at last week....framing the school closings as an overreaction to a minimal risk is incorrect and dangerous.
So...your friend caught covid, and therefore, everyone else is "incorrect and dangerous". Well, guess what: a friend of mine caught covid outside of work last week. So what's your point? That people get sick?
Also: how did your friend end up, again? You skipped over the part where a fully vaccinated person recovered from a mild illness with no problems.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10235165/Teachers-N...
Meanwhile, there's no evidence for the "appropriate measures" (whatever those are) that you're using to cast allusions on the safety of schools. There's simply no evidence base to defend the claim that schools are unsafe, and a substantial evidence base showing the opposite.
Want to give elderly teachers leave or early retirement? Sure, fine. But especially after vaccination, the rest is complete theater.
> a friend of mine just caught Covid from the school she works at last week....framing the school closings as an overreaction to a minimal risk is incorrect and dangerous.
So...your friend caught covid, and therefore, everyone else is "incorrect and dangerous". Well, guess what: a friend of mine caught covid outside of work last week. So what's your point? That people get sick?
Also: how did your friend end up, again? You skipped over the part where a fully vaccinated person recovered from a mild illness with no problems.
This is not a rich school district. Many of the children live in multigenerational households, some with grandparents as primary caregivers. They can’t take an early retirement as you dismissively said. My friend will likely be fine, the people these children bring the disease home to might not.
Here are 3 studies from the CDC on the effect of Covid precautions on school outbreaks. The evidence does exist. https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/p0924-school-masking...
Here are 3 studies from the CDC on the effect of Covid precautions on school outbreaks. The evidence does exist. https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/p0924-school-masking...
This!
[deleted]
Even after she has helped save a loved one's life, she says, some family members have told her that they're still not sure they'll get vaccinated – and that the coronavirus is a hoax.
"I've been told by patients' families [who can't come to visit] that we are making this up to drum up business at the hospital," says Bucko.
God, that must be so infuriating. When you’re as tired and stressed as these medical staff are, I don’t know how they can summon up the energy to deal with that. I’ve had a few conversations with friends about this, they’re mostly hesitant rather than fully down the rabbit hole, but every one of those conversations is totally draining.
"I've been told by patients' families [who can't come to visit] that we are making this up to drum up business at the hospital," says Bucko.
God, that must be so infuriating. When you’re as tired and stressed as these medical staff are, I don’t know how they can summon up the energy to deal with that. I’ve had a few conversations with friends about this, they’re mostly hesitant rather than fully down the rabbit hole, but every one of those conversations is totally draining.
“that we are making this up to drum up business at the hospital”
At least in the US this kind of thinking makes some sense if you ever had the pleasure of dealing with insane hospital bills. They are greedy bastards.
It’s sad a lot of health workers are doing great work and sacrificing their health while working for morally corrupt institutions like hospitals.
At least in the US this kind of thinking makes some sense if you ever had the pleasure of dealing with insane hospital bills. They are greedy bastards.
It’s sad a lot of health workers are doing great work and sacrificing their health while working for morally corrupt institutions like hospitals.
State medical licensing boards are also corrupt institutions. They use quotas to limit the number of practicing doctors. The result is the ongoing doctor shortage and overwork, resulting in lower-quality care for everyone.
Every clinician I know (I work with a lot of infectious disease doctors) have been cut to the bone with stuff like this.
A few days ago a link was posted that made it to the homepage of a doctor that quit on account of being assaulted. People were falling over each other to claim that it was a hoax and that the account was created for the purpose of deceiving people and that such a thing would never happen.
The article then got flagged. There is some serious denial going on about the impact of COVID and I really don't understand what is driving that.
The article then got flagged. There is some serious denial going on about the impact of COVID and I really don't understand what is driving that.
Money and ideology.
Money because restrictions shutdown the cashflows that support the rich in the lifestyle to which they've become accustomed.
Ideology because if we can come together to fix Covid, maybe we can come together to fix climate change and inequality. This is an anathema to those who believe that we should all carry on just as we please, because we can't do anything about these things anyway (and cashflows again).
Money because restrictions shutdown the cashflows that support the rich in the lifestyle to which they've become accustomed.
Ideology because if we can come together to fix Covid, maybe we can come together to fix climate change and inequality. This is an anathema to those who believe that we should all carry on just as we please, because we can't do anything about these things anyway (and cashflows again).
mythrwy(1)
My wife and I are fully vaccinated and boosted. Our kids are too young to be vaccinated. We're all currently Covid positive. Fortunately, my wife and I have mild symptoms and our young children have manageable symptoms.
I was thrilled to be vaccinated and in awe at the power of mRNA technology. I got everyone I knew that was un-techsavvy a vaccination appointment as early as possible.
With that being said...
I think we are coming to terms with our collective hubris. Omicron has caused many "breakthrough cases". The science would indicate that it either evolved in an immunocompromised human or through an animal. Those are particularly inconvenient paths to blame on "anti-vaxxers".
We were all always going to get Covid whether we liked to or not.
I was thrilled to be vaccinated and in awe at the power of mRNA technology. I got everyone I knew that was un-techsavvy a vaccination appointment as early as possible.
With that being said...
I think we are coming to terms with our collective hubris. Omicron has caused many "breakthrough cases". The science would indicate that it either evolved in an immunocompromised human or through an animal. Those are particularly inconvenient paths to blame on "anti-vaxxers".
We were all always going to get Covid whether we liked to or not.
There can be multiple vectors sustaining COVID - the unvaccinated and anti-maskers certainly don't deserve all the blame, but they're certainly not helping either and are likely accelerating the speed of the spread and increasing the opportunities for more evolution of the virus.
Immunosuppressed humans are a minority. And each of them would be less likely to get infected (at all) if the regular people around them took vaccination seriously.
Regarding Omicron, there is some cause for hope: so far it does seem to produce less severe illnesses.
Regarding Omicron, there is some cause for hope: so far it does seem to produce less severe illnesses.
> We were all always going to get Covid whether we liked to or not.
One of the main examples of hubris was that we thought we could stop it. The "success story" countries quickly dwindled to Australia and New Zealand--situations not exactly replicatable. Australia's hubris led to a bad vaccine rollout, and a few cases quickly escalated to lockdowns. I think NZ eventually settled on an endemic policy.
One of the main examples of hubris was that we thought we could stop it. The "success story" countries quickly dwindled to Australia and New Zealand--situations not exactly replicatable. Australia's hubris led to a bad vaccine rollout, and a few cases quickly escalated to lockdowns. I think NZ eventually settled on an endemic policy.
NZ was having trouble containing their last outbreak - it had got into the 'gangs', a part of their society that was particularly hard for the government to reach with containment action. So, controversially, they gave up. I suspect they were under a great deal of pressure from 'those who would see Covid win'.
Note that China is still keeping Covid at bay.
Note that China is still keeping Covid at bay.
> a part of their society that was particularly hard for the government to reach with containment action
I think there are parts of society like this almost everywhere, and that's why it's uncontainable once it hits a critical mass.
China is interesting. I guess they're doing it mostly through testing and restrictions that wouldn't work elsewhere? They have a good vaccination rate, but their vaccines aren't very effective. There's also North Korea; they claim zero cases. I imagine the real number is either surprisingly close or essentially 100%.
I think there are parts of society like this almost everywhere, and that's why it's uncontainable once it hits a critical mass.
China is interesting. I guess they're doing it mostly through testing and restrictions that wouldn't work elsewhere? They have a good vaccination rate, but their vaccines aren't very effective. There's also North Korea; they claim zero cases. I imagine the real number is either surprisingly close or essentially 100%.
> Those are particularly inconvenient paths to blame on "anti-vaxxers".
Why would one feel the need to blame anti-vaxxers for new strains?
> We were all always going to get Covid whether we liked to or not.
That’s not the point of vaccinations. The point of vaccination is to delay and spread out infection peaks as well as make infections as manageable as possible.
Why would one feel the need to blame anti-vaxxers for new strains?
> We were all always going to get Covid whether we liked to or not.
That’s not the point of vaccinations. The point of vaccination is to delay and spread out infection peaks as well as make infections as manageable as possible.
Been there, saw those things myself. This should be shown to those fine minds turned from "it doesn't exist" to "it's just a flu", then "it's curable with <insert any sorcery-style remedy>" then finally becoming full time anti-vaxers. See the pattern? The goal there is being against common sense, no matter if it kills you. Then insert politics to make positions even more firm.
Just had an argument with a friend over the phone the other day: he lost an unvaccinated relative of Covid months ago, still refuses to get vaccinated although they soon will force him in order to keep his job, which makes him angry. His last words before I politely ended my probably last call to him were "you support vaccinations because you're a communist!". Nuff said.
The issue has become so divisive that should one day we discover it was orchestrated by someone, I'd be undecided between hanging that royal bastard to the highest pole with live TV coverage, or giving him a prize for managing to literally cut our society in two with minimum effort.
Just had an argument with a friend over the phone the other day: he lost an unvaccinated relative of Covid months ago, still refuses to get vaccinated although they soon will force him in order to keep his job, which makes him angry. His last words before I politely ended my probably last call to him were "you support vaccinations because you're a communist!". Nuff said.
The issue has become so divisive that should one day we discover it was orchestrated by someone, I'd be undecided between hanging that royal bastard to the highest pole with live TV coverage, or giving him a prize for managing to literally cut our society in two with minimum effort.
This is interesting.
I find myself somewhere on this spectrum. I'd appreciate if you could read my comment and pick me apart on this because I hate the division too.
I never thought that coronavirus didn't exist, but I've always thought that it's "just a flu" (not literally, but figuratively, in the sense that Spanish Flu was just the flu, and now we're no longer immunologically naive).
In terms of the anti-vax stuff - well, I'm fully vaccinated, but I'd probably be considered "anti-vax" by a significant number of people because that I do not believe that it reduces transmission sufficiently to eliminate the virus if 100% took it - e.g. I think herd immunity is impossible, so to me it's 100% a personal risk.
Based on this, it makes me viciously angry when people back restrictions, lockdowns, mask mandates, vaccine mandates, etcetera.
I see these people as being scientifically illiterate because they're willing to apply force in order to attempt to solve an unsolvable problem.
And as time passes I start to just stop paying attention and discount them as, well, being human. I just can't, for years at a time, listen to people spout arguments based on (what I consider to be) false premises and continually try to explain why they're wrong.
Either I get angry and lash out, or just meme it. Neither are particularly conducive to bridging a divide.
What is the solution to get out of this mess?
How do I make peace with someone who seems to be maniacally obsessed with something I consider to be a non-issue?
I don't expect here that either of us will convince each other, but yeah, WTF do we do? I fundamentally can't see the solution, like you say it's literally cut society in two, as if we now have completely different utility functions.
I find myself somewhere on this spectrum. I'd appreciate if you could read my comment and pick me apart on this because I hate the division too.
I never thought that coronavirus didn't exist, but I've always thought that it's "just a flu" (not literally, but figuratively, in the sense that Spanish Flu was just the flu, and now we're no longer immunologically naive).
In terms of the anti-vax stuff - well, I'm fully vaccinated, but I'd probably be considered "anti-vax" by a significant number of people because that I do not believe that it reduces transmission sufficiently to eliminate the virus if 100% took it - e.g. I think herd immunity is impossible, so to me it's 100% a personal risk.
Based on this, it makes me viciously angry when people back restrictions, lockdowns, mask mandates, vaccine mandates, etcetera.
I see these people as being scientifically illiterate because they're willing to apply force in order to attempt to solve an unsolvable problem.
And as time passes I start to just stop paying attention and discount them as, well, being human. I just can't, for years at a time, listen to people spout arguments based on (what I consider to be) false premises and continually try to explain why they're wrong.
Either I get angry and lash out, or just meme it. Neither are particularly conducive to bridging a divide.
What is the solution to get out of this mess?
How do I make peace with someone who seems to be maniacally obsessed with something I consider to be a non-issue?
I don't expect here that either of us will convince each other, but yeah, WTF do we do? I fundamentally can't see the solution, like you say it's literally cut society in two, as if we now have completely different utility functions.
My take is: do whatever it takes to keep the health care systems from being overwhelmed, and no more. Allow people to make their own personal health choices outside of that.
But even that is a hard sell to some people.
But even that is a hard sell to some people.
All these comments encouraging empathy for unvaxxed in the name of humanity fail to acknowledge humanity of the medical workers who are treating the unvaxxed. Being married to an ICU physician I have witnessed the mental health toll this pandemic has had on medical workers. Especially, the nurses and doctors who work in the ICU. The majority of the unvaxxed ending up in the ICU have had a lot of misinformation fed to them though social media. Their families often want to co-manage the treatment with physicians and ask to be given ivermectin and other unproven medication. Many of these situations leads to unnecessary
emotional exchanges and threats of physical violence from the families.
I don't know about the rest but in my wife's ICU group the umvaxxed covid patients only elicit anger from staff.
I love what this nurse is doing. Something that doesn’t come through is how loud the air purifiers are in make-shift negative pressure rooms. The smell of incontinence. Foggy face shields and sweaty isolation gowns.
Maybe if we had more photojournalism like this earlier in the pandemic, we would have reacted stronger and contained it better.
Standing there taking photos instead of helping. All those crevices in his camera body and lens harbouring bacteria and viruses... Brilliant.
There are plastic covers you can place on cameras. The nurse is helping by sharing someone's story which is in line with their goals of care. Your comment isn't helpful and based upon your other comments, your contributions don't really fit on hackernews.
Thank you to health care workers who keep grinding away to help others, and individuals like this who fight the ignorance and misinformation. You are heros in a time when we really need them.